Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33285

 1                           Thursday, 16 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Pusic not present]

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the

 8     case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

10     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T, the

11     Prosecutor versus Jadranko Prlic.  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13     Today is the 16th of October, 2008.  Good morning to the accused present,

14     to the Defence counsel, to Mr. Scott and his team, and to all the people

15     helping us out.

16             With regard to the time, you have used one hour and 21 minutes so

17     far, Mr. Scott, so you can add up or take that time off the four hours

18     you were given.  So you have two hours and 39 minutes left.

19             We have a short oral ruling regarding the scope of questions

20     dealt with during cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic.  The Trial Chamber

21     is of the view that questions that have to do with military strategy are

22     novel questions, are new questions.  Therefore, the Trial Chamber will

23     take that into account with regard to the time allotted.  This is what we

24     were going to say.

25             You have the floor, Mr. Scott.

Page 33286

 1                           WITNESS:  MIRKO ZELENIKA [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

 6     your leave to say a few words very briefly, up to two minutes, before we

 7     continue with the cross-examination.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about?  Not to the merits

 9     of the case.  If it has to do with your health, fine, but not with regard

10     to the case as such, because you're only here to answer questions.  What

11     is it about?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I actually have an

13     objection to the manner of examination yesterday.  I would not say

14     anything about any specific issue.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So objection to the manner of

16     cross-examination by the Prosecutor.  All this is being controlled by the

17     Trial Chamber.  As per the Rules, the Judges are the ones that decide as

18     to the way cross-examination or examination is carried out, and they make

19     sure that witnesses are not put under pressure when having to answer

20     questions.

21             We did not notice that there were any pressure exerted on you.

22     You may have perceived or felt that the questions were making you

23     uncomfortable, but that's the way you feel about things.  That's

24     subjective.  We have to make sure that the examination is not such as to

25     exert pressure or be threatening to you, because if that were to be the

Page 33287

 1     case, we would then step in to make sure that the one proceeding in that

 2     way stops doing so or there could be a redaction in the LiveNote, but

 3     we've not noticed anything of the kind.  We've had a few remarks by

 4     Mr. Karnavas as to the manner questions were put, but you have the

 5     choice.  Either you cannot answer a question and you say, "I don't know,"

 6     or you know and you have to answer the question.  There can be no

 7     problem, no specific problem or difficulty there for you.

 8             Let's proceed.  If there were a problem, then you would point it

 9     out to us.

10             Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  I just want to point out to the Trial Chamber,

12     because I do see that one member of the Trial Chamber keeps shaking their

13     head, and there must be an understanding that the gentleman here was a

14     victim, was a victim.  And it has been a long-held tradition in this

15     Tribunal, well before any of us came here, that victims are treated

16     differently, irrespective of whether they're Croats, Serbs, or Muslims.

17             Now, even though we're not going into areas regarding how he was

18     treated, and as you may recall, I stayed away from those areas.  I did

19     not pander to any emotionalism.  I try to keep my -- you know, that's why

20     I asked yesterday if Mr. Scott to modulate his voice and keep in mind

21     that the gentleman was a victim, and that may be something that is

22     causing the gentleman some -- some unease.  And I would respect -- I

23     would hope that the Trial Chamber would intervene and not leave it up for

24     me to intervene, because then it gives the impression that I'm trying to

25     protect the witness.  And I would like to see equal protection for all

Page 33288

 1     victims.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Mr. Karnavas.

 3     This did not escape us.  We know that he was a victim because we know

 4     that he was detained in the Jablanica museum, and we know, unfortunately,

 5     that some of the people very close to him and his family also died.  So

 6     we take all this in to account.  We factor that in, and we know that you

 7     have been a victim, as there were, unfortunately, too many of them.

 8             So far Mr. Scott has not gone into this topic of victims.  I

 9     don't know.  I can't tell you anything.  Let's wait and see.

10             You may proceed, Mr. Scott.

11             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning,

12     Your Honours.  Good morning to everyone in the courtroom.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Scott:  [Continued]

14        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Zelenika.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   Let me just very, very briefly say, sir, in light of what has

17     been said, I may at times have put some hard questions to you and,

18     indeed, I may press you rather firmly, and for better or worse, that's

19     the nature of the process.  I hold no personal animosity towards you.  To

20     the extent that you and your family were victims or may have been victims

21     of the horrible conflict in the former Yugoslavia in which there were

22     victims on all sides, you have my condolences.

23             Sir, you testified yesterday that you never received any salary

24     or money in connection with working for the MUP security station in

25     Jablanica.  In that regard, I'd like you please to look at, in your

Page 33289

 1     binder, P 10669.  Same process that we followed yesterday.  P 10669.

 2     It's toward the back.  I think it's about the eighth one from the back,

 3     sir, but unless we've made a mistake, they're in numerical order.  10669.

 4        A.   I think I've found it.

 5        Q.   Sir, this is a record of -- dated the 2nd of April, 1993, from

 6     the Jablanica police station, or MUP, being sent to the Mostar police

 7     administration, and in this document, I believe you turned to it, if you

 8     turn to item number 2, it appears to indicate, sir, does it not, row 2 in

 9     the list, your name appears, "Mirko Zelenika."  And for the month of

10     March 1993, you were being paid for 23 days; is that correct?  Number 2,

11     sir.

12        A.   Esteemed Prosecutor, that is correct.

13        Q.   And what services were you providing to the Jablanica police

14     station in March of 1993 on 23 days for which you were compensated or

15     paid a salary?

16        A.   I did not perform any duties.

17        Q.   So you just were paid for 23 days for not doing anything?

18        A.   [No interpretation]

19        Q.   We didn't get your answer in the transcript, sir.

20        A.   I said yes.  Yes.

21        Q.   Yes meaning, yes, you received the monies in April 1993 for 23

22     days in March, but for which, in fact, you say you did nothing?

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Mr. Scott.  I look at this document,

24     also at the original, and it has a column for signature --

25             MR. SCOTT:  Yes.

Page 33290

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  -- which would be the confirmation that the

 2     person concerned has, in fact, received something, but it's empty.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  So what -- on what do you base your affirmation

 5     that the witness has in fact received something?

 6             MR. SCOTT:  That he was -- to that extent, Your Honour, I correct

 7     my question to suit -- the record indicates that he was to be paid for 23

 8     days.  Now, whether it bears a signature that he signed -- that he

 9     actually received the money, I agree, Your Honour, that's a different

10     matter.

11        Q.   But, sir, there's a record here, and my point is -- my apologies

12     if I misspoke.  It was not intended to misdirect you, sir, but this is a

13     record being sent by the MUP police station in Jablanica to Mostar, to

14     the police administration to be paid -- these are -- attached is the list

15     of members of active and reserve forces of Jablanica police station to be

16     paid their salaries for March 1993, and you are listed as number 2.

17     There is an identification number next to the left -- excuse me, to the

18     right of your name, and then an indication in the column number of days,

19     23.  Do you see that?

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the extra microphones be turned off,

21     please.

22             MR. SCOTT:

23        Q.   Do you see that, sir?

24        A.   Dear sir, and I would like to thank you for reminding me, I did

25     say I had done nothing in the police at the time.  I was doing something

Page 33291

 1     else, and for that something else I was doing, money was brought that

 2     should have otherwise been paid to the police, and that's why there is no

 3     signature here.

 4             I was told that was the money that should have gone to the

 5     police, and that's why there's no signature.

 6        Q.   Well, all right.  Thank you for the clarification from all sides,

 7     and that's one reason I came back when you said -- you did say earlier

 8     that you had not done anything, and now apparently -- are you telling us

 9     now that you had done something for which money was being given to you,

10     or at least arranged to be given to you for 23 days in March 1993?

11        A.   Yes, but I was doing other jobs that have nothing to do with the

12     police.

13        Q.   Well, what other jobs were you doing, sir?

14        A.   I was doing some work in the economy regarding the further

15     construction of that Salvation Road that was mentioned previously in my

16     testimony.  I was supervising work on the construction of that road, and

17     I was receiving some remuneration, but I knew it was money intended for

18     the police, so I signed a receipt on another list.

19        Q.   All right.  So you did receive the money then.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, in terms of what you were doing at that time, sir, you made

22     a prior statement that, in fact, you were receiving this money because

23     you were active in the political HVO at that time, correct, and

24     throughout this time?

25        A.   No.  By no means.  It was not a political wing of the HVO.  I was

Page 33292

 1     paid for doing organisational work in the construction of the road that I

 2     mentioned.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  If we can go into private session for a moment,

 4     Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please, Mr. Registrar.

 6                           [Private session]

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Page 33293

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

24             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Sir, we're talking about -- we were talking about 1D 01449, and

Page 33294

 1     when that document was shown to you the other day and you opined that it

 2     appeared from the document that the HVO did not receive 20 per cent of

 3     the meals along this 80 per cent/20 per cent split that we were talking

 4     about earlier this week, let me just ask you a couple more questions

 5     about that.

 6             Prior to the time that Mr. Karnavas showed you that document,

 7     1D 01449, had you seen it before?

 8        A.   Before he showed it to me I -- I had never seen it.  I had never

 9     seen it.

10        Q.   And in fact, sir, do you have any personal knowledge, and I'm not

11     asking you to speculate, guess, or state your belief, I'm asking do you

12     have any personal knowledge that the HVO did not, in fact, receive 20 per

13     cent of the meals?

14        A.   Since this equal treatment of the HVO in terms of logistics was a

15     constant problem, I can't claim that I know specifically about those

16     2.500 meals.  Maybe I didn't even attend that session.  If you asked me

17     whether I attended or not, I wouldn't be able to recall.

18             I cannot remember, although I was a member of the Presidency

19     then, whether I was there when the decision was made on the 2.500 meals,

20     but there was a constant problem enforcing this agreement that 80 per

21     cent should go to the army and 20 per cent to the HVO.

22        Q.   So your answer, sir -- excuse me, but our time, again, is

23     limited, as you know.  So my answer to your question, sir, is that you

24     have no personal knowledge that the HVO did not, in fact, receive meals

25     at that time.

Page 33295

 1        A.   I have general knowledge that it did not, but I cannot confirm

 2     this specific example, whether it fit into the general picture, because

 3     you can see that it was a problem for many other documents.  To me it

 4     seems irrelevant whether in this specific case it happened that way or

 5     not.  We have other, many other documents that there was a constant

 6     problem with the logistical support to the HVO.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... how your testimony is

 8     received and understood by the Judges in this case?  Sir?

 9        A.   Yes?

10        Q.   Now, going back to the general --

11             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may just

12     intervene.  The record says that the witness said yes, but the witness

13     said yes with a question mark as far as his intonation is concerned.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say yes in confirmation.

15     I said yes, expecting a question.

16             MR. SCOTT:

17        Q.   Well, I put a question to you, sir, and I'll put it again.  You

18     said -- you said something about being -- it seems irrelevant to me.

19     Sir, when you gave that testimony -- see that's my point, sir.  When you

20     gave that testimony on Monday, the impression you left with the Judges is

21     that you had -- you had affirmed as if that's something that had really

22     happened, that you had knowledge of that, and now you're saying it's

23     irrelevant to you whether that's true or not?

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I'm sorry to

25     interrupt you, but you can't say that the impression that you gave to the

Page 33296

 1     Judges, because you don't know what impression he gave us.

 2             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I will say that that is the impression

 3     that I perceive that he tried to create and I think I can put that

 4     question to the witness.  I'm commenting on the witness's testimony and I

 5     think I can pursue that.  You're right, Your Honour, I can't get into

 6     your head, but I think I can put the question to the witness, and he just

 7     said it was irrelevant to him.

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  He didn't say.  Your Honours, I don't want to be

 9     disruptive.  He didn't say that, and I believe the question is

10     argumentative in nature.  So I mean -- if we were in a -- before a jury,

11     this question would be struck down with lightning speed.

12             MR. SCOTT:  Well, we're not in front of a jury, Mr. Karnavas.

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  Because it's argumentative.

14             MR. SCOTT:  No, it's not.  Mr. President, I'm probing the

15     credibility of this witness and I -- it's my perception as one example of

16     an occasion in which a document was put to him that he now tells us he

17     had never seen before and he was asked to opine on it.  Now we know that

18     he has no personal knowledge of it and then comes back and says but it's

19     really irrelevant to him.

20             MR. KARNAVAS:  The question was, so are you saying this is

21     irrelevant.  He already answered the question.  Now I think the point has

22     been made and the gentleman should just move on.  He's made his point.

23             MR. SCOTT:  I will move on, Mr. President, because I don't want

24     to waste my time -- more of my time on this.

25        Q.   Sir, if you can go next to --

Page 33297

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's one question by a

 2     Judge.

 3             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Scott.  Excuse me.  Can

 4     we just go back, because you moved very quickly to this document, but I

 5     wanted to go back to P 10669 just for a second.

 6             Witness, on Tuesday when we were looking at this decision on war

 7     tax for citizens, document 1D 01460, I had put a question to you.  I had

 8     asked you whether the municipality employees or yourself were paid and,

 9     if so, in what currency.  You answered that municipal employees were not

10     paid at all.

11             Earlier on this morning when we were looking at P 10669 regarding

12     the Mostar police, we found your name in the list of those who were paid,

13     but you explained and I understood your explanation that you were not

14     paid as a policeman but for work that you did with regard to the

15     construction of a road.

16             So let me go back to the question I put on Tuesday.  You were

17     paid for this work.  So in what currency were you paid?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wish to remind

19     everyone that I hadn't been in the municipality as of the 29th October

20     1992.  So I wasn't working in the municipality at all from that time on,

21     but I worked in the civilian HVO doing economic development, road

22     construction, sometimes paid in Croatian dinars, sometimes in German

23     marks.  My remuneration would be partly paid in Croatian dinars, partly

24     in German marks one month, another month it would be only German marks,

25     the third month it would be just Croatian dinars.  But I did not do that

Page 33298

 1     in 1992.  In fact, I started in the end of 1992.

 2             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.  I can

 3     see this document dealing with war taxes.  I see the date, 4th of

 4     December, 1992.  Indeed that the Mostar police, we have the date of the

 5     2nd of April, 1993.  Thank you very much.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. Scott.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I would like to know whether there is a mistake

 8     in the record.  Mr. Karnavas has very vigorously said the witness had

 9     never pretended that the issue was irrelevant.  I find on page 10 of

10     today's record, lines 21 to 23, the following sentence:  "To me it seems

11     irrelevant whether in this specific case it happened that way or not."

12             Now, was that wrong?  Did you say something different, Witness?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot say that I

14     was present at the session when this decision was made.  What I did say

15     was that this merely confirms the discrimination of the HVO throughout

16     this period in a number of cases.  This is just an illustration, an

17     example.  I thought it was just irrelevant whether I was aware of this

18     one single case when I was aware of the practice that was prevalent

19     throughout the year.  That's what I meant.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  Mr. Scott.

21             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Sir, just to go back then to the series of events that we were

23     talking about through the second half of 1992 yesterday, and I showed you

24     a number of documents in which I pointed out to you that on a number of

25     occasions the Muslim representatives repeatedly took the position and

Page 33299

 1     communicated their position that three ethnic entities were not

 2     acceptable, doing things, arranging things on a national basis were not

 3     acceptable, for instance, with the military, that they should be based on

 4     territorial units and not on ethnicity and I put those question to you.

 5     And now following from that, isn't it a fact, sir, that it was because of

 6     the Muslims' refusal to go along with Herceg-Bosna and the HVO and the

 7     fact that the local HVO leadership apparently had not been able to make

 8     that happen, that a number of the Herceg-Bosna HVO leadership were

 9     unhappy with the Jablanica HVO civilian and military leadership as it

10     existed at that time, and there was calls for these people to be removed?

11     In other words, that those people, if I can put it in a bit of the

12     vernacular, had not gotten the job done.  They had not achieved the

13     Herceg-Bosna agenda.  Isn't that what happened at the end of 1992?

14        A.   Could you please clarify a little bit?  Who called for the

15     civilian leadership of the HVO in Jablanica to be removed?  Who made this

16     demand, because I didn't understand that part.

17        Q.   Let's look at -- well, let's make it a bit more concrete by

18     looking at Exhibit P 00581 in your binder, please.

19        A.   Where is it approximately?

20        Q.   It's the seventh document in the binder, sir, but if you look,

21     sir, by the numbers, you should be able to find all the documents.

22             This is a communication from the military police -- excuse me.

23     My apology.  The brigade commander of the Herceg Stjepan Brigade dated

24     the 15th of October, 1992, and during the period that we've been

25     discussing since yesterday.  It's addressed to a number of other military

Page 33300

 1     police units, Konjic, Jablanica, Mostar, et cetera.  And the commander

 2     says:  "This is to inform you that as of the 17th of October, 1992, all

 3     persons in the territory of Konjic and Jablanica that are in possession

 4     of a pass allowing them freedom of movement throughout the territory of

 5     the HZ HB and the Republic of Croatia shall have their passes

 6     authenticated with the Herceg Stjepan Brigade's stamp."

 7             Now if we skip a paragraph, the commander then goes on to say:

 8     "The reason for taking these measures is abuse of other stamps and they

 9     refer to both civilian and military segment of this territory."

10             Now, here again it appears to be that it is the HVO that is

11     asserting the authority to permit or not permit movement in these

12     municipalities, Konjic and Jablanica.  Do you recall that at the time,

13     sir?

14        A.   Esteemed Prosecutor, you asked me a little while ago -- or,

15     rather, you wanted me to confirm that there was this initiative to remove

16     the civilian segment of the HVO in Jablanica from office because they

17     were not doing their job right, and now you are showing me a military

18     document, and I can't really understand what it has to do with what

19     you've asked me, and I don't see any civilian HVO mentioned anywhere.

20        Q.   If you look, sir, in the -- if you look in the third paragraph

21     that I read out loud to you a moment ago, it says:  "The reason for

22     taking these measures is abuse of other stamps and they refer to both

23     civilian and military segment of this territory.  This report has been

24     endorsed with Herceg Stjepan Brigade's stamp so that you may see what it

25     looks like."

Page 33301

 1             If that's not clear enough to you, sir, let's move from that.

 2             I gave you that as an introduction.  Let's move to the next

 3     document, P 00582.  It should be the very next document in your binder.

 4     P 00582 by the same commander the very next day the 16th of October,

 5     1992.  And on that occasion, the same commander writes to Mate Boban,

 6     Jadranko Prlic, Bruno Stojic, Andjelko Siljeg, and repeats some of the

 7     actions that he is taking in the area:  "I'm hereby informing you that on

 8     16 October 1992, I was forced, due to their failure to carry out orders,

 9     to disband the 3rd Battalion command from the Herceg Stjepan Brigade,

10     Konjic, as well as the HVO Municipal Staff command, Jablanica.

11              "In line with orders issued verbally by Mr. Bruno Stojic, I

12     issued an order in writing that all stamps from the areas of Jablanica

13     and Konjic should be withdrawn and the stamp of the Herceg Stjepan

14     Brigade from Konjic should be regarded as the sole valid one."

15             Skipping a paragraph:  "It is necessary in this situation to

16     appoint without delay a new HVO Municipal Staff command and its president

17     as well as other military and civilian bodies in Jablanica.  We therefore

18     kindly ask you," Mr. Boban, Mr. Prlic, Mr. Stojic, and Mr. Siljeg, "to

19     take appropriate action on your part so that this can be done as soon as

20     possible."

21             Now, you knew, didn't you, that there was dissatisfaction among

22     the HVO, that some of the local military and civilian HVO leadership or

23     officials at that time were viewed as being too cooperative with the

24     Muslims.  They had not been able to get Herceg-Bosna established in

25     Jablanica, and people like this commander were acting to have them

Page 33302

 1     removed and replaced; correct?

 2        A.   That's absolutely not correct, sir.  At that time I was still the

 3     president of the Executive Board of the Jablanica municipality, and I was

 4     not in the civilian HVO, and I did not know about this dissatisfaction,

 5     although I did see people around, and I was not aware of this initiative

 6     that you're talking about to remove people from office, to have them

 7     replaced.  So I cannot really confirm this at all.

 8        Q.   Sir, as has been mentioned already today, I regret needing to

 9     raise the topic of your brother Marko, but I must in this particular

10     context.

11             What was the position of your brother Marko Zelenika in the HVO

12     in October 1992?

13        A.   My brother was the commander of the Mijat Tomic Battalion, which

14     was active in the Jablanica municipality, and it was part of this

15     brigade, the HVO Brigade Herceg Stjepan that was headquartered in Konjic.

16     He was the commander of the battalions from sometime in July 1992 until

17     the fall of 1992.  But please do not ask me to give you a specific date.

18     Sometime in the fall, October or maybe November.  I know that this was

19     roughly the time period, from the summer until the fall of 1992.  So he

20     was a commander in the HVO.

21        Q.   Was that the 3rd --

22        A.   Of a battalion.

23        Q.   Excuse me.  Was that the 3rd Battalion of the Herceg Stjepan

24     Brigade?

25        A.   Well, I don't know the number designation, but it was designated

Page 33303

 1     as Mijat Tomic.  Now, I don't know what the numbers were, the 1st, the

 2     2nd, the 3rd --

 3        Q.   Sir, again --

 4        A.   -- but that was its distinguishing feature, its name.

 5        Q.   Sir, again with my regret for having to raise it, but isn't it a

 6     fact that your brother was removed from that position in about January of

 7     1993 because he was perceived to be too cooperative with the Muslims and

 8     was removed from his position?

 9        A.   That's absolutely not correct.  I will not get emotional as I was

10     when I read the text and I saw his signature, and that really moved me.

11     What you said is a heinous lie.  My brother -- well, it was in the fall

12     or maybe sometime in January around New Year's Day, he got paralysis.

13     One side of his face got paralysed so he went to the hospital in Split

14     for treatment.  And yet now we can see that some people tried to foist

15     those terrible lies on you and now you come here and you present them in

16     court here.

17        Q.   Well, whatever physical problems he may or may not have had at

18     that time, sir, and again if that's the case, I regret that.

19             Sir, around that time, at the end of 1992 or early 1993, he was

20     removed, perhaps it was coincidental, perhaps not, he was removed from

21     his HVO position; correct?

22        A.   He was not removed, sir, unless there is a document from his

23     superiors to that effect.  If you have a document to that effect and if

24     you show it to me, then I will agree with you, but I claim that he was

25     not removed.  This is the first time that I hear anything of the sort.

Page 33304

 1        Q.   Now, moving forward, sir, the efforts of the -- of the

 2     Herceg-Bosna authorities and the HVO to again assert control over the

 3     Jablanica area, that continued through January, February, March of 1993,

 4     didn't it?

 5        A.   Absolutely not.  As far as Jablanica is concerned, there were no

 6     such efforts at all.

 7        Q.   For example, around -- in early January 1993, someone who the

 8     Chamber has heard, a General Daidza, came to the centre of Jablanica town

 9     with HVO soldiers, kind of flexing their muscles in the area; correct?

10     Do you remember that?

11        A.   I don't recall that, but General Daidza led both the HVO soldiers

12     and the BH army soldiers.  He had both under his command.  I never saw

13     him lead only the HVO troops.

14        Q.   And in the middle of January 1993, and we're not going to go to

15     all of these documents because we don't have time, but the Chamber will

16     recall, and others in the courtroom, that it was on the 15th of January,

17     1993, that we had certain actions, a decision by Jadranko Prlic, an order

18     by Bruno Stojic imposing a deadline on the 20th of January, 1993, for the

19     ABiH units and areas that were then being called Vance-Owen provinces 3,

20     8, and 10 to subordinate themselves to the HVO or to leave the areas.

21             Now, did that come to your attention around this time?

22        A.   Sir, I'm not the right person to ask this question.  You cannot

23     ask me -- ask me this question.

24        Q.   So this is another one of these topics that you didn't -- you

25     didn't know anything about, these high-level orders coming down from the

Page 33305

 1     president of the HVO and the head of the HVO defence department?  Never

 2     came to your attention?

 3        A.   I never heard of it, and I find it strange that you apparently

 4     don't realise who I am.

 5        Q.   And if you can go, please, to P 01164.  P 01164.  Sir, this is a

 6     document issued by -- an order by the HVO military police in Jablanica on

 7     the 16th of January, 1993, the day after the Prlic and Stojic documents,

 8     and it says in the top:  "Pursuant to the order of the Jablanica HVO and

 9     the order by the head of the defence department and the military police

10     of the HZ HB, the Jablanica military police is obliged to carry out the

11     following."  And I'm not certainly going to go through all of this but

12     number 1:  "Population of the Jablanica municipality are allowed to leave

13     the municipality with the appropriate approvals issued by," then it lists

14     the people who can do that.  Number 4 [sic]:  "The accompanying

15     documentation for arms, military equipment and ammunition imported from

16     the Republic of Croatia or another country" -- excuse me.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to object

19     to the part of the question where the Prosecutor establishes a link

20     between the previous document by Mr. Stojic with this document.  In the

21     preamble of this order, which is signed by Mr. Livaja, there is no

22     mention of the reference.  So you cannot really see from the text that it

23     had anything to do with the previous order, and the question by

24     Mr. Prosecutor goes as follows:  "One day after the order by Mr. Stojic."

25     I think it is very difficult, in fact impossible to establish a link

Page 33306

 1     between the documents, both on the basis of the preamble and the text

 2     itself, although the Prosecution is apparently trying to do just that.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, everything I have said is based

 4     absolutely on the evidence.  On the 15th of January, the head of the HVO

 5     department of defence, Mr. Bruno Stojic, in document number P 01140

 6     issued his decision to enforce the Prlic decision of the same date, the

 7     15th of January, 1993.  I turn to this document and it says, and I didn't

 8     make it up, it says:  "Pursuant to the order by the Jablanica HVO and the

 9     order by the head of the defence department and the military police of

10     the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna."

11             So I leave it to Your Honours to draw your own inferences and put

12     the evidence together and draw your conclusions, but it's certainly fair

13     for me to put the question to the witness.

14        Q.   I was reading, sir, before I was interrupted, on point number 3:

15     "The accompanying documentation for arms, military equipment and

16     ammunition imported from the Republic of Croatia or another country that

17     needs to cross over check-points and the municipality of Jablanica should

18     be signed by the head of the defence department of Herceg-Bosna, HZ HB,

19     Bruno, probably Stojic," and I leave it to the courtroom to look at the

20     document.  I don't think it's as illegible as in this particular instance

21     the translator might have.  "Bruno Stojic, the chief of the HVO main

22     staff, Milivoj," and I submit that the original shows "Petkovic," et

23     cetera, et cetera.

24             Now, sir, this is a document that was issued on the ground in

25     Jablanica affecting what was happening on the ground in Jablanica in

Page 33307

 1     mid-January 1993.

 2             Did you see these things -- these sorts of things taking place?

 3     Did you see efforts to regulate, by the HVO, who could leave and move

 4     about the municipality?

 5        A.   Well, this was not an effort only on the part of the HVO.  I know

 6     that even before this time an agreement was in place whilst the

 7     check-points were set up that their purpose was to control the traffic of

 8     passengers, people, and goods.  So what you read to me in this item

 9     merely serves to establish control on the passage of persons and goods.

10     This is nothing peculiar.  The BH army did this as much as the HVO.  So

11     this is not strange at all.

12        Q.   Not strange at all.  So you confirm that this is what was

13     happening at the time; correct?

14        A.   Yes, I do confirm that the traffic of people and goods was

15     controlled.

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I believe that there is a mistake

17     here.  I hope it's accidental.  The document does not know -- does not

18     talk about the passage of people and goods and neither does the previous

19     document that speaks about the replacement of stamps, because the

20     Prosecutor skipped the part where it says that stamps were abused from

21     the previous document.  So could we please read what it says in the

22     order.

23             It is indicated that they can move but only pursuant to an

24     approval issued by the Jablanica HVO with the signature and stamp of

25     Matan Zaric.  So here we're not talking about the HVO controlling people

Page 33308

 1     going in and out, but this is all about the stamp.  The reason is because

 2     the Prosecutor, I believe it was accidental, in his haste forgot to read

 3     the part of the notice that was sent to Mr. Boban, Mr. Prlic, Mr. Stojic,

 4     and Mr. Sagolj where it says that the stamps are being abused.  The whole

 5     story here is about the abuse of stamps, the stamps and signatures that

 6     make it possible for somebody to get in and out.  This is not about the

 7     HVO establishing control over who gets in and out of the municipality.  I

 8     think that this is what arises from the document if you read it in its

 9     entirety.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

11     continues] ... Mr. Coric.

12             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would

13     like to say something very briefly.  If I was following, perhaps this is

14     a problem of translation, when the Prosecutor asked the question, he

15     referred to the previous question and documents that pertain to Jablanica

16     and movements in Jablanica.  Now, since I don't have the right to

17     redirect and although in direct there was no discussion about military

18     police and these matters, I would just like to say that we heard

19     Safet Idrizovic, a member of the BH army, here in court, and this goes to

20     the credibility of this witness because the Prosecutor obviously is

21     trying to impeach the witness.

22             Witness Safet Idrizovic at page 9833 of the transcript confirmed

23     the very thing that this witness has been saying.  He talked about the

24     check-points and about the joint patrols.  In February and March 1993

25     those mixed patrols were composed of the BH army, BH MUP, and the HVO

Page 33309

 1     military police.  So in March and February 1993, they had those joint

 2     patrols.  The witness confirmed it, and a document PD 0227 [as

 3     interpreted] was admitted into evidence.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You can continue.

 5             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Now, we were about to turn --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             MR. SCOTT:  -- the significance of all that.  The documents speak

 9     for themselves and I think I accurately presented them to the Chamber, so

10     I'm not really sure what all that was about.

11        Q.   But in any event, sir, let's move forward to the appoint of

12     Mr. Cibo, who you've talked about quite extensively.

13             Do I understand your position on this to be, sir, that there was

14     some sort of a -- my -- my characterisation, but some sort of a Muslim

15     plan or programme by which Mr. Cibo was sent and controlled by

16     Mr. Izetbegovic in Sarajevo to carry out some particular agenda, if you

17     will, in the Jablanica area?  Is that basically what you're telling us?

18        A.   Well, I didn't see the plan.  What I did see were some

19     consequences of the plan.  But after the war, after my detention, I got

20     hold of some documents, and I realised that all those documents taken

21     together show that there was this plan that Mr. Cibo should come to

22     Konjic and Jablanica to stir trouble among Croats and Muslims and to

23     bring war into Konjic, Jablanica, and Herzegovina as a whole.

24        Q.   All right.  Well, sir, if I -- again if I misspoke or misdirected

25     you, I apologise.  I didn't say if you saw a plan in terms of a written

Page 33310

 1     plan.  I was just trying to understand.  It's your basic position that

 2     Mr. Cibo was sent by Sarajevo with a programme.  That's your position;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   And is it your position -- or it has been stated in this

 6     courtroom that Sarajevo was cut off.  Can you tell us how it was that

 7     these communications or coordinations were taking place between what was

 8     happening in Jablanica and the direction that you said was coming from

 9     Sarajevo?

10        A.   Well, the communication went underneath the tunnel that was dug

11     beneath the runway at Sarajevo airport.  That was in autumn 1993.  That

12     was the only way in which it was possible to establish this communication

13     from Jablanica to Sarajevo.

14        Q.   And so you're telling the Chamber that this programme was being

15     carried out and coordinated by Sarajevo with Mr. Cibo and others in

16     Jablanica, and the sole way that that was being done was by

17     communications carried through the tunnel at the Sarajevo airport.  Is

18     that what you're telling the Judges?

19        A.   Well, I cannot now say that it was impossible to travel in some

20     other way, perhaps by helicopter.  What I do know, however, is that there

21     was this tunnel.  It is possible that some people travelled by helicopter

22     too.

23        Q.   You've then gone on to say, if I understand your position, that

24     Mr. Izetbegovic appointed Cibo.  I think what you've said in your

25     testimony in the last couple of days was contrary to -- something to the

Page 33311

 1     effect contrary to the laws and practices.  Is that right?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   Can you tell the Judges, in particular, the particular aspects in

 4     which you say that Mr. Cibo's appointment was contrary to law and

 5     customary practice at that time?

 6        A.   I do believe I can.

 7        Q.   Please.

 8        A.   The regulations, the laws regulating the procedure for the

 9     appointment of the local authorities in the Republic of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina that were in force stipulated that in order for somebody to

11     be elected the president of the municipality and for members of the

12     Municipal Assembly to be elected only persons who had permanent place of

13     residence in that particular municipality could be put on the slate.  And

14     based on the election, those representative bodies in the municipality

15     was set up.  They were called the municipal assemblies.  And in the case

16     of Jablanica, in our case, the Assembly had 35 representatives.  And then

17     at a session of this Assembly, the president was elected by a majority of

18     votes.  And in this manner, in 1992, Sefer Hamdo was appointed or elected

19     the president of the Municipal Assembly by a majority of votes.  And then

20     later on in 1992, he was replaced by Mr. Nijaz Ivkovic who was also a

21     representative, one of the elected representatives.  So it was

22     impossible.  The law did not provide for a possibility for somebody from

23     another municipality on anyone's decree, on anyone's decision, to be

24     appointed the president of the Municipal Assembly.

25             So I can only repeat what I've already said.  This was simply

Page 33312

 1     unconstitutional, unlawful, illegal.  This was a political and a legal

 2     precedent.  And Muslims in Konjic and Jablanica opposed it most of all,

 3     and everybody realised that this was chaos.  It was a chaotic situation.

 4     Anything went in that state, because you could bring in people from other

 5     municipalities to be presidents of the municipality -- of another

 6     municipality.

 7        Q.   Was the Municipal Assembly in Jablanica meeting in March, April

 8     1993?

 9        A.   I was not in the municipality then, but I don't believe they

10     convened.

11        Q.   Sir, isn't it a fact that especially in wartime or crisis

12     situations much of decisions -- many decisions like these get made by

13     political agreement?

14        A.   This was not a political agreement.  It was a case of imposing

15     someone against everyone's political will.  You could see that those

16     people in Konjic were up in arms against it.  This decision to replace

17     Mr. Ivkovic came to Jablanica with the signature of Mr. Izetbegovic, and

18     I was invited to the SDA and they showed it to me.  It was not along the

19     Presidency line.  It was along the SDA line to replace Nijaz Ivkovic.

20             We asked the Muslims in the SDA board, "What are you going to do

21     about this?"  They said, "This is not going to pass, no way.  We are

22     going to oppose this."

23        Q.   Sir.  Sir, the position you held in Jablanica municipality

24     between April 1992 and the end of October 1992, you did not hold that

25     position lawfully, isn't that true, because you were never approved by

Page 33313

 1     the Assembly?  You told us that in your testimony on Monday.  You got

 2     your position as a result of a political agreement which was never

 3     approved by the Assembly.

 4        A.   That's something entirely different, and I can explain.

 5        Q.   Let's go, please, to Exhibit P 10668.  P 10668.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  If the gentleman wishes to explain, he should be

 7     given the opportunity to explain.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Scott.  He wants to

 9     provide an explanation.

10             What did you mean to say, Witness?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  The fact

12     is the Prosecutor tried to compare two completely incomparable things.

13             I came to the position of the president of the Executive Board of

14     Jablanica on the 11th of May, 1992, based on a decision by the

15     Crisis Staff.  The Crisis Staff was an operative body which under the

16     peculiar circumstances of the immediate threat of war had all the powers

17     of the Assembly, the same powers as the Assembly.  Anything that the

18     Crisis Staff decided was legal, and once an opportunity arises, the

19     Crisis Staff was under obligation to submit it's decisions to the

20     Assembly.

21             The first discussion of my appointment was sometime in June, and

22     it was at a time when the Crisis Staff filed to the Assembly all the

23     decisions, appointments, et cetera, it had enacted between April and

24     June.  Some of those were verified by the Assembly, others were rejected.

25             Nobody said I was an illegal appointment, an unlawful

Page 33314

 1     appointment.  I was chosen by a body which had the legal right and basis

 2     to appoint me.  So my case cannot be compared in any way to the case of

 3     Mr. Cibo who was practically imposed against everyone's will.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

 5             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   I won't repeat and go back to your testimony on Monday about

 7     that.  Everyone will have that.  Because that's not what you said at the

 8     time.  Sir, let me ask you to go to P 10668.  P 10668.  Toward the back

 9     of the binder, please.

10             I think Mr. Karnavas may have shown you a similar document by

11     a -- with a Defence number, so I don't think it will be new to you, but

12     it's also been -- well, in any event.  P 10668.

13             Sir, this appears to be the decision of the, among other things,

14     appointing Mr. Cibo in Article XV to -- and concerning Jablanica, and

15     Article XVI concerning Konjic; correct?

16        A.   XV and XVI, correct.

17        Q.   All right.  Just so there's no misunderstanding, if we go back to

18     the top of the first page of the document, this reflects that this action

19     was taken at the session of the 13th of March, 1993, the Presidency, I

20     emphasise the word "Presidency," not President Izetbegovic.  "The

21     Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina adopted the following."  Do you see

22     that?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   And if you could next go to Exhibit P 10667.  It should be very

25     close to the one you were just looking at.  P 10667 is a decision in

Page 33315

 1     which Mr. Cibo was dismissed from that position or those

 2     responsibilities, and that document --

 3        A.   Just a minute.  I haven't found it yet.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  The one before.

 5             MR. SCOTT:

 6        Q.   It should be the one right before it, sir.  They're in numerical

 7     order.

 8        A.   667, here it is.

 9        Q.   All right.  And, sir, would you agree with me that this action

10     was taken, and I'm again directing your attention to the preamble, if you

11     will.  This was taken action at a session on 14 December 1993, the

12     Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina issued the following

13     decision, and then et cetera.  It speaks for itself, giving recognition

14     to Mr. Cibo and essentially dismissing him from those responsibilities.

15     Do you see that?

16        A.   I do.

17             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me just one moment, Your Honour.

18                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

19             MR. SCOTT:

20        Q.   All right.  I think for the interest of time -- thank you, sir.

21     I'd like to direct your attention next to the topic -- yes?

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  There is a problem

23     of semantics, because the Prosecutor has just said that he is dismissed

24     of his duties, dismissing in English.  He was dismissed.  But there's no

25     mention of dismissing in the document.  It says that the work is being

Page 33316

 1     ended because the reasons that had been that he was appointed no longer

 2     are present.

 3             So in your view, Witness, is it that he was dismissed because he

 4     had made a mistake, or he no longer does the job because there is no

 5     reason for him to continue doing the job?  What is your view on this?  Or

 6     maybe you have no opinion whatsoever, I don't know.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was not dismissed in that sense,

 8     Your Honour.  He was relieved of his duties because he has done the work

 9     he was supposed to do.  He had organised in Jablanica a dozen of camps

10     through which more than 3.500 Croat civilians and defenders passed

11     through.  He organised the ethnic cleansing of 11.500 Croats in the

12     territory of Jablanica and further afield.  He organised the persecution

13     of Croat civilian population, and that's why the reasons for his

14     existence in Jablanica ceased.

15             One more thing is said here in paragraph I.  A term is used,

16     "Commissioner," and the municipality of Prozor is mentioned.  But you

17     have seen in these documents, although from my point of view they are

18     unlawful and unconstitutional, that those who enacted them thought

19     otherwise.  Dr. Cibo was not, according to these documents, in charge of

20     Prozor municipality because I personally read in Muslim press that Cibo

21     was the president for Jablanica and for Konjic and for 20 per cent of the

22     territory of Prozor.  So that's my position.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott.

24             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Sorry.

25        Q.   I'd like to turn now to the question of -- well, some of the

Page 33317

 1     questions that you -- things that you say took place in Jablanica in or

 2     around the period of April, May thereafter.

 3             One question I'd like to touch on just before we go forward.  You

 4     talked about the electrical power being disconnected to some parts of

 5     Jablanica municipality.  On that general topic, sir, isn't it correct

 6     that it was the HVO who cut off the electrical and water supply from the

 7     west to Sarajevo and Konjic during the war?

 8        A.   Which year are you talking about?  You said April, May.

 9        Q.   Let me come back to you.  I was going to turn, sir, to the time

10     that some things happened and through the summer when you're talking

11     about -- when you were mobilised for labour, and I did jump to that, sir,

12     you're absolutely right, but you had also -- before I got to that -- what

13     I was doing was amending my sequence, sir, so if I misled you I'm sorry.

14             Before I get to that I would like to come to your testimony about

15     electrical power, because you raised that and were talking about -- and

16     how it was cut off and how Izetbegovic supposedly said something about

17     it.

18             Isn't it correct, sir, that it was the HVO who cut off the

19     electrical and water supply coming from the west of Sarajevo, cut off the

20     electrical and water supply to Sarajevo and Konjic during the war?

21        A.   Sir, I lived in Jablanica.  I cannot talk about electricity and

22     water in Sarajevo.  I can tell you about the electrical power and water

23     in Jablanica if you have anything to ask me about that.

24        Q.   Jablanica town had electrical power through the war, throughout

25     the war?  Is that right?  I'm not saying there may have not been a day

Page 33318

 1     here and a day there, but generally had power throughout the war?

 2        A.   Correct.  Jablanica town.

 3        Q.   And the Croat-controlled areas of Jablanica municipality, they

 4     had electrical power during most of the war.  Perhaps not from Jablanica,

 5     but by one means or another that they were provided with electrical power

 6     during most of the war; correct?

 7        A.   Unfortunately, that area where the Croats were under the control

 8     of the HVO did not have a single day during the war and quite a long time

 9     after the war when they had electricity.  Twenty-two months in total.  We

10     organised another supply of electrical power through another channel from

11     the hydro power station elsewhere, because they -- it was no longer

12     available from Jablanica.

13        Q.   When was the power arranged from the hydro power station

14     elsewhere?

15        A.   That arrangement was made -- in fact, it began in 1994 after I

16     personally came to meetings in Jablanica from Mostar and begged, implored

17     people in the Muslim leadership to release electricity.  And when I was

18     absolutely certain, when they convinced me that they wouldn't do it, I

19     had no choice but to pass on their decision.  And we had to make a

20     decision to build a completely new transition line from the hydro power

21     station Rama.

22        Q.   All right.  Let's go on to your mobilisation for work.  And

23     again, sir, as I touched -- as I get into this topic, I'm sorry if it

24     might seem like prying to you, but sometimes in these cases we pry a bit

25     more than perhaps we would in everyday, polite conversation.

Page 33319

 1             You've talked about some sort of a medical element or disability.

 2     Can you -- is there a particular diagnosis that you were ever given for

 3     that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And can you tell us what it is, please?

 6        A.   It was osteomyelitis femoris dex.  In a normal language it's

 7     inflammation of the femur.  I suffered from that for the first time as a

 8     boy.  I was hospitalised for the same reason in Sarajevo, in Kraljevica,

 9     and later in Croatia.  Because of that condition I also changed school.

10     I had originally started training for electricians, but I did my military

11     service and after serving in the army in 1973 my situation deteriorated.

12             I was sent to the military medical panel in Mostar.  They decided

13     I was no longer fit to serve any further in the army.  They said I should

14     avoid long walks, standing for a long time.  I was unfit for marching or

15     guard duty.  And based on that, the secretariat for general

16     administration in Jablanica adopted in 1973 the decision that I was unfit

17     for military service, so I was assigned to civilian protection, and I was

18     the commander of the Municipal Board for civilian protection.

19             With such a medical file and with the decision from the

20     municipality, that same Secretariat for National Defence summoned me 20

21     years later to take a pick and an axe and a shovel and report for duty.

22     I rejected that.  They sent the police to fetch me by force and bring me

23     there, and I showed the relevant decision to the secretary of the

24     secretariat, and I told him, "Mr. Omer, you have this same decision in

25     your archive.  How could you send me the summons, the call-up?"  He told

Page 33320

 1     me, "None of that that was issued earlier no longer applies.  There will

 2     be a revision, but until the revision you have to respond to the

 3     call-up."

 4             And I went every day to dig trenches, to fell trees, cut timber.

 5     And when the invitation to revision arrived, the doctors at the hospital

 6     didn't even look at me, because Cibo ordered them to disregard the oath

 7     of Hippocrates.  Now that Cibo was there, the doctors only had to obey.

 8     I was before a panel of seven medical doctors.  All of them had given the

 9     oath and they had to disregard it and dismiss all medical reasons, and I

10     had to go to work.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  It may be of some assistance, Your Honour, given

12     the question what he suffered.  The gentleman did provide to the

13     Prosecution back in 1996 a document which has the ERN 00388360.  We could

14     put it on the ELMO, and it quite clearly states what the gentleman --

15     it's a medical report.  It's the actual medical report, and perhaps this

16     could be shown to the gentleman.  We could put it on the ELMO and it

17     could be seen that this is from 22/11/1973, and it does have the Latin

18     term for the actual diagnosis.

19             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, my question isn't if that's the case at

20     all.  I'm simply was -- I thought it might be interesting since we've

21     heard all this testimony but we'd never actually gotten the underlying

22     information.  I just simply thought that was something that we might want

23     for the record, but I never put into question the 1973 diagnosis, if you

24     will.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  We may need to get an IC number for this, too,

Page 33321

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have an IC number,

 3     Mr. Registrar, for this medical document.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  This document will be IC number 863.  Thank you.

 5             MR. SCOTT:

 6        Q.   The board, sir, that you said, and I think it's probably implied

 7     but again because of just --

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Mr. Scott.

 9             MR. SCOTT:  Yes.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm a bit puzzled by the Defence during

11     cross-examination introducing a document, but I think it would be the

12     least that the witness looks at it and confirms that it is what it's

13     purported to be.

14             Usher, can you show it to the witness, please.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Judge Trechsel is right.

16     Now we're going to waste some minutes on this.

17             Is this your medical report?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is the finding of the

19     medical panel.  And I told you in my own words what it says with 80 per

20     cent accuracy.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Scott, it was

22     so obvious that I hadn't even thought that it was necessary to ask a

23     question.

24             MR. SCOTT:  That was my reaction as well, Your Honour.

25        Q.   The board that made the original decision in 1973, because you

Page 33322

 1     referred to -- you were then named or made the head of the

 2     Civilian Protection Board, if I understood you correctly.  Maybe I got it

 3     wrong.  But I understood that you said you were made the head or referred

 4     to the Civilian Protection Board back at that time, and I take it that

 5     was also Jablanica municipality?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   All right.  And if I can ask you, please, to look at P 10672 in

 8     your binder.  P 10672.

 9        A.   0672, or 672 are the last numbers.

10        Q.   10672.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And, sir, this particular document is dated the 25th of June,

13     1993, titled "General mobilisation call-up."  And says:  "For the purpose

14     of the replenishment of the municipality work unit," at least that's the

15     way it's been translated, "conscript Mirko Zelenika is hereby called up

16     to report to the terrace outside of the municipal -- municipality

17     building ..." et cetera, et cetera.

18             Now, is this the kind of document that you received around this

19     time that you've been telling us about, sometime during 1993 to report

20     for a work detail?

21        A.   Sir, I only took one summons.  It doesn't mean I was called up on

22     the 26th June for the first time.  I was called up for the first time

23     back on the 15th of April.  But I saved just one call-up paper as an

24     example of the abuse of the work obligation.  In fact, it was forced

25     labour.  And for these reasons that I stated, I was not liable to be

Page 33323

 1     called up --

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 3        A.   -- for work obligation, let alone for forced labour.

 4        Q.   You're jumping ahead of me.  You're assuming things that I'm not

 5     putting to you.  I didn't suggest this was the first time, but is this an

 6     example of the kind of document that you received in connection with

 7     being called up for work?

 8        A.   Yes, correct.

 9        Q.   And did you receive such a document on -- on only one occasion or

10     more than that and, if so, approximately how many times did you receive

11     the document?  I mean approximately.  I mean just -- are we talking about

12     once or twice or every day or 50?  Give the Judges some idea of how often

13     did you receive a document like this.

14        A.   Constantly went to do that forced labour beginning with the 15th

15     of April, and they only sent documents --

16        Q.   Sorry.  Excuse me.  Sorry to interrupt you but, again, our time

17     is limited.  I didn't ask you if you went every day.  My question is how

18     often would you receive a document like this?  Did you receive one every

19     day?

20        A.   I have another document with the same language, but it was sent

21     by the Executive Board.  The Executive Board over which I presided sent

22     the same call-up except the signature was the president of the

23     Executive Board.

24        Q.   All right.  Well, perhaps that's --

25             MR. SCOTT:  And then I know we're coming up to the break,

Page 33324

 1     Your Honour, but if we could finish with this.

 2        Q.   Perhaps that's the exhibit which is right before that one which

 3     is P 10671.  Do you see that?  It should be the one right before it, sir,

 4     10671.

 5        A.   Yes, that's the one.  That's the document that I was talking

 6     about.  It's the very same document.  As you see, it's only the president

 7     of the Executive Board here.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And before we take the break, sir, can you just -- so are

 9     you telling us then that from -- because I heard you say a few moments

10     that you -- you first reported for work or did work, at least if I

11     understood you correctly, on the 15th of April, and is that -- is that

12     correct?  Is it on the 15th of April, 1993?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And how often did you engage in this sort of a work detail

15     between the 15th of April, 1993, and the time that you were unfortunately

16     taken into the camp, as you've told us, in, I don't know, early September

17     1993?

18        A.   Sir, I went every day.  There are only two days that I didn't go.

19     It was the 12th and the 13th of June, the two days when I went to attend

20     the meeting at Mr. Safet Cibo's.  So only the 12th and the 13th of June I

21     didn't go.  I went every day until the 8th of September.  Actually, I

22     went there also on the 8th of September, the very day when I went to the

23     camp later on.

24        Q.   All right.

25             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think we can stop here.

Page 33325

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we break for 20 minutes.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, we have something to

 5     ask from you.

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Not only me but also colleagues of mine have

 7     wondered where you were going with this health issue and forced labour.

 8     We do not quite understand the relevance.  Perhaps you will tell us that

 9     it's testing credibility and then, of course, that will be it, but could

10     you enlighten us?  Thank you.

11             MR. SCOTT:  Well, I guess two responses, Your Honour.  As to the

12     first point, I did simply think that since there had been questions about

13     medical health, that we get a -- if there had ever been a diagnosis that

14     we ever actually get a diagnosis.  I thought that seemed to be

15     appropriate.  Maybe I was the only one that was curious.  If so --

16     secondly, Your Honour, if -- I do have a few additional questions about

17     it and I think it is relevant to the nature of what this witness calls

18     forced labour and the characteristics of it.  So if I'm ultimately wrong,

19     of course, the Chamber's not persuaded it's relevant, I guess I've wasted

20     my time.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Okay.  Please proceed.

22             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Sir, in terms of -- or I guess I should say, if I can --

24     Judge Trechsel, if I can respond one moment further.  Of course I can't

25     know what the Chamber thinks of the evidence so far, so I can't --

Page 33326

 1     perhaps you're already ahead of me.  Maybe you are, maybe you're not.  It

 2     leaves all counsel in the -- I'm sure Mr. Karnavas and others, sometimes

 3     not being sure of where the Chamber might be on particular evidence.

 4             In looking at -- and I'm just using as an example, sir, that -- I

 5     tell you right now that there's nothing magical about this particular

 6     10672, just as the document itself.  It says:  "General mobilisation

 7     call-up," and I guess in response to Judge Trechsel's question, this

 8     was -- whatever your own personal difficulties, again, sir, which we can

 9     all regret, this was a civilian protection work detail that people from

10     all over Jablanica town, both Croats and Muslims, were called out to do

11     work, public work, in this way; correct?

12        A.   That's not correct.  All the people, Croats and Muslims alike,

13     who were healthy and who were within a certain age bracket, who were not

14     children, who were not the elderly, could -- or, rather, had to respond

15     to this call-up.  But persons such as myself could not be summoned to do

16     this kind of work.  There wasn't a single law that provided for it.

17        Q.   All right.  Well, sorry, again, sir, if my question wasn't clear,

18     but I think you did answer my question.  The intent of my question was

19     this was not something imposed on you as a prisoner or a detainee.  It

20     wasn't just imposed on Croats.  The able-bodied people in Jablanica, be

21     they Croat or Muslim, were mobilised for these work details throughout

22     this time period; correct?

23        A.   That's not correct, sir.  Croats were mobilised to do this kind

24     of work, to dig trenches, to carry ammunition and food to the combat

25     positions and to cut timber, and Muslims got tasks to clean the roads, to

Page 33327

 1     load and unload.  They never carried ammunition and food to the front

 2     lines.  And there was a law stipulating that only those who were able to

 3     perform a certain task, who were in good health could be summoned, and

 4     there was no law in Bosnia and Herzegovina that stipulated that I, with

 5     the condition that I had, could be summoned to do the kind of work that

 6     I, in the end, had to perform.

 7        Q.   Sir, as one of my colleagues likes to say, work with me on this

 8     for a moment.  I'm not asking you -- I'm putting aside your personal

 9     situation, all right, and your personal hardship and your physical

10     problem, and I -- again, we all regret that.  Putting aside your

11     particular situation.  If you will -- if you'll allow me, I'm talking now

12     more general, and I was reacting specifically, sir, to your testimony a

13     few moments ago, and it's just about to leave the page, it just did

14     leave.  Page 41, line 3.  You said all people, all the people, Croats and

15     Muslims alike, were called out to engage in what I've called a public

16     work -- public works, public work details.  Now, let's start with that.

17     That's correct; right?

18        A.   No, that's not correct.  This is the third time that I'm telling

19     you this.  Croats were sent to do forced labour, and Muslims were given

20     tasks that could be subsumed under work obligation.  That's the

21     difference.

22        Q.   Sir, again, one step at a time.  I understand -- you're loud and

23     clear that your position is that Croats were sent for a particular kind

24     of work and Muslims were engaged in a different type of work.  I have you

25     on that.  But in general when these -- these generalisation -- these

Page 33328

 1     generalisation mobilisation call-up, the type of thing that we see in

 2     Exhibit P 10672 and P 10671, these were mobilisations for all the people,

 3     able bodied people living in Jablanica, both Croat and Muslims.  That's

 4     my only question to you at the moment.  If you can assist us, please.

 5        A.   Let me assist you in this way:  While I was mobilised, as is

 6     indicated in the call-up paper, there were never any Muslims doing this

 7     kind of work.  And I do know that they went to do other work, easier

 8     tasks, ordinary tasks.  And I knew everybody there.  Over the four months

 9     there was not a single Muslim who worked with me.  And I do know that

10     they went to do other kinds of work.

11        Q.   All right.  Well -- excuse me.

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Scott, you have not received, of course, the

13     answer to your question precisely, but I think implicitly you have, and I

14     would suggest that you not insist now, because the experience shows that

15     it will be probably not very fruitful.

16             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That's exactly what I was

17     going to do.  I think that -- I hope that the Chamber -- once again, I

18     can't assert, as the President reminded me this morning, I can't know

19     what's in the Judges' heads, of course, but hopefully the point's been

20     made.

21        Q.   Now, sir, in terms of -- now, I'm accepting what you're saying.

22     You're saying the Croats were sent to do a particular kind of different

23     work.  So I'm on the same page with you, okay?  But when you say you

24     went -- that you did these other tasks, can you tell us the locations?

25     Will you tell us some of the locations that you were sent to do these

Page 33329

 1     other tasks and what you actually did there?  Very briefly, please.

 2        A.   We went to a location.  It's elevation Pisvir in the direction of

 3     Poljane, in the direction where the HVO positions were.  We carried food

 4     and ammunition and we dug trenches there.  We went to Boksevica too.

 5     Again, in the direction where the HVO positions were, we carried food,

 6     ammunition and water and we dug trenches.  We also went to the Prenj

 7     mountain where we cut timber for the fortifications of the BH positions.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 9        A.   So we went to Mount Prenj --

10        Q.   I'm not trying to be impolite but I'm trying to manage my time.

11     And I agree with that.  I accept that.

12        A.   [In English] Okay.  Okay.

13        Q.   When you say that you went to cut timber and dig trenches and did

14     these things, how close were you to the actual confrontation line when

15     you did these things?

16        A.   [Interpretation] We were very close.  People were killed on those

17     lines.  Fortunately, I survived.  And people, some were wounded in fact.

18        Q.   All right.  And so I take it -- that was my next question, and I

19     think it was as Judge Trechsel would say, it's implicit, but just to make

20     it very clear.  So on some occasions when you were engaged in this work,

21     it was -- combat was active.  Fighting was going on.  Is that -- are you

22     telling us that, or did I misunderstand?

23        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

24        Q.   And did you consider it improper, sir, inappropriate for you and

25     the other Croats who were taken and used in that way?  Did you consider

Page 33330

 1     that to be improper behaviour?

 2        A.   Yes.  I thought it was against some law somewhere.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A follow-up question,

 4     Mr. Witness.  The front line, who was on the other side?  Who was the

 5     enemy on the other side of the line?  Who was it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was the HVO army

 7     that was on the other side as the enemy.

 8             MR. SCOTT:  All right.  I am leaving that topic unless the

 9     Judges -- I'm leaving that topic unless the Judges have other questions

10     about that.  All right.

11        Q.   Sir, I'd like you to be handed now before we proceed, in light of

12     testimony earlier today, if the witness could please be provided -- it's

13     not in the binder but I've asked to be distributed P 01631.  Defence

14     counsel, I think, all have it, and if it could be given to the Chamber if

15     they don't have it, please.

16             MR. KARNAVAS:  And while that is happening, Your Honour, I'm told

17     that there may be a mistranslation.

18             MR. SCOTT:  I was going to deal with that, Counsel.  Yes, I'm

19     aware.  Thanks to Ms. Alaburic.

20             As Mr. Karnavas said, there may be a translation question which I

21     am grateful to Ms. Alaburic for bringing it to my attention, which I'll

22     get to in a moment.

23        Q.   But, sir, if you have that document which is P 01631, this

24     appears to be a document, an HVO record dated the 9th of March, 1993,

25     over the name of Bruno Stojic with a stamp of the Herceg-Bosna Mostar

Page 33331

 1     stamp on it, which appears to be, and again, if it's difficult for you, I

 2     again regret having to bring up the topic of your brother, but it appears

 3     to relate to your brother Marko Zelenika.  Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now, in terms of the potential translation issue, and

 6     I'll ask for the assistance of the booth, please, if you can read for us

 7     where it's -- where it says "Command" in your language and under --

 8     immediately below "Command."  If you could please read that slowly enough

 9     so the translation booths can assist us in the translation.

10        A.   Should I read the whole text or just where it says --

11        Q.   Excuse me, sir --

12        A.   -- order?

13        Q.   If I can help you further, help all of us.  The top of the

14     document goes on with a preamble, and then it says:  " ... hereby issues

15     the following command," or order, what have you.  And immediately

16     following -- so if you'd find that portion.  Can you start reading where

17     it says:  " ... hereby issues the following," and then read that, you

18     know, next seven or eight, ten words, please.

19        A.   "Order to discharge from the position in the Herceg Stjepan

20     Brigade in Konjic."  Under number 1:  "Marko Zelenika is discharged from

21     the position of the commander of the 3rd Battalion of the Herceg Stjepan

22     Brigade, Konjic.  The defence office, personal military speciality

23     establishment, military speciality establishment, rank, addressees."

24        Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much.

25        A.   "The operational zone commander, the unit, the personnel

Page 33332

 1     department, and the chief -- and the General Staff of the HVO."

 2        Q.   All right.  Thank you, sir.  Can you tell us -- well, did you

 3     know anything about this order?  I'm not asking if you'd seen the

 4     particular document, but did you ever learn, around March or the spring

 5     of 1993, about the discharge of your brother, Marko Zelenika, from the

 6     post of commander of the 3rd Battalion by Mr. Stojic?

 7        A.   I knew about this discharge.  I didn't know who issued it, and I

 8     didn't see this document before.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Can I turn to the topic, please, of the use of your

10     flat.  If I understand your testimony correctly, you testified that

11     sometime in mid-April -- in the second half of April 1993, a Muslim

12     family was put up in your flat in Jablanica.  Is that correct?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   Now, is it correct, sir, that by the second half of 1993 -- well,

15     excuse me.  Let me restate that.  Can you assist us with approximately

16     how many Croat civilians were still in Jablanica town by the latter part

17     of April 1993?  Approximately.

18        A.   In the seat of the municipality in Jablanica there were over 500

19     Croats, but we should also take into account those who had been expelled

20     from the villages around it and came to the capital of the municipality.

21     So there were about 500 of them.

22        Q.   All right.  I didn't qualify my question in any way, sir.  I just

23     wanted how many -- your estimate of approximately how many Croat

24     civilians were in Jablanica town by the latter part of April, and you say

25     about 500.

Page 33333

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Now, can you tell us when this Muslim family was put into your

 3     flat how -- how that was arranged, how that came about?

 4        A.   This was done pursuant to an order of the War Presidency

 5     stipulating that everybody was under an obligation to take in a family of

 6     displaced persons, but the way it was implemented was that only Croat and

 7     Serb families had to do it, whereas Muslim families did not have to put

 8     up any displaced persons' families.

 9        Q.   Again so the record is very clear, what you're saying was that

10     the regulation or the programme, if you will, was supposed to apply to

11     everyone, including Muslims, but you're saying was implemented in such a

12     way that it was only Croat and Serb - excuse me - householders or

13     families that, in fact, did so or were required to do so; is that

14     correct?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And could I ask you, please, to look at P 10673.  It should be

17     toward the end of the binder, I would think, somewhere.  10673.  Fifth

18     from the back, I'm told.

19             Is this a copy of the document, sir -- it's titled on the top of

20     the page, at least in translation, as "Contract on joint use of flat."

21     Is that the document that you were involved in, in terms of this family

22     being placed in your flat?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Just one or two questions.  In terms of the people -- the

25     distribution list at the bottom of -- I think it's on the second page in

Page 33334

 1     both events.  Yes.  Number 3, Jablanica Public Utilities Enterprise;

 2     number 4, Elektro-Jablanica Power Company.  I'm just curious as to -- do

 3     you know why the document was provided to the public utilities enterprise

 4     and the power company?

 5        A.   Esteemed Prosecutor, I'm extremely happy that this document is

 6     here.  I'm overjoyed, in fact.

 7        Q.   Well, I'm glad I could assist you in that way, sir.

 8        A.   I'm really overjoyed, because this document is written in my

 9     hand.  This is my handwriting.  These are the names of the people who,

10     pursuant to the decision of the War Presidency, were put until my

11     apartment, and the procedure for this was as follows:  An official of the

12     municipality, in this case it was Sead Bukva, and a police officer would

13     come to your door.  They would bring this family with them, and they

14     would tell you, "Mirko, well, this family here has been assigned to your

15     apartment.  Please don't let there be any problems."  And I accepted

16     that.

17             Sead came later and demanded that I draft this contract, which is

18     what I did, but I never heard of anyone else in Jablanica drafting a

19     contract of this kind.

20             Do you know why I did it?  This woman, Bulka Bukva and her

21     daughter and son-in-law Hamdija and the son Mujo and the sister-in-law

22     and two children.  The first family had one child, so it's actually three

23     families who had come in from Rogatica to Jablanica in 1992.  They had

24     been expelled by the Serbs, and they were in the local cinema.  That's

25     where they were put up.  And now when the war broke out between the BH

Page 33335

 1     army and the HVO, some of the families, not all of them, were moved out

 2     from the collective lodgings to better accommodation.  And since

 3     Mrs. Bulka had her brother -- her husband's brother, Mujo Bukva, he

 4     was -- he lived on the first floor of my building and I lived on the

 5     third floor, and Sead did not take this family to Suljo's place, which

 6     would have been normal, but he took them to Mirko's apartment.

 7             And then in order to secure their status in the future at the

 8     time when the war was over, he asked me to write this kind of a contract.

 9     But fortunately I knew how to do it, although I'm not a lawyer, but I was

10     able to draft this kind of contract.  And I was in this apartment up

11     until sometime in August while there was enough food, and then they

12     evicted me.  And I went one street down to Pera Bilica Street, to my

13     parent's place at number 4.

14        Q.   I haven't wanted to interrupt you, but let's again take it in a

15     bit smaller pieces.  My specific question to you at this particular point

16     is I see, then, that you -- you thought to send a copy of this to the

17     Jablanica Public Utilities Enterprise and Elektro-Jablanica, and I'm

18     just -- my question to you some minutes ago was why did you distribute

19     this document to them?

20        A.   Well, Sead Bukva actually dictated this text to me.  He was an

21     official of the municipality.  He was in this staff for the accommodation

22     of refugees that we've been mentioning so often.  And Sead, I guess,

23     thought, or at least that's what he told me, that I should write this.

24     Well, he must have known why this was necessary.

25        Q.   All right.  Now, sir, you said that this was -- this programme,

Page 33336

 1     decision or programme, whatever it was, that came from the municipality

 2     to house people, that this was not -- this was not applied to Muslims,

 3     and I want to be sure here that --

 4        A.   Absolutely not.

 5        Q.   You're absolutely sure that no Muslims in Jablanica town in 1993

 6     put up refugees or displaced persons in their houses?

 7        A.   Well, I cannot vouch for what happened after I left, after the

 8     8th of September, but while I was there I can state that.

 9        Q.   Let me briefly ask you about a document that Mr. Karnavas showed

10     you.  I believe you won't have it.  It's not in my binder, I don't

11     believe.  Perhaps we can have the assistance of e-court because it was a

12     Defence exhibit.  1D 00772.  I guess it is.  I'm told it is in the back

13     of the binder, sir.  So -- third from the back, 1D 00772.

14             This is the -- this was a decision by -- apparently by Mr. Cibo

15     on the 29th of July, 1993, which you essentially dismissed as -- I think

16     you said something like it was nonsense in your testimony the other day,

17     and my question to you, sir, again is similar to some of the other

18     questions I've asked you.

19             Whatever you view of it might be, do you have -- do you have

20     personal knowledge that, in fact, none of the Croats from Doljani took

21     advantage of this situation to move into different accommodations?  Do

22     you know for a personal -- out of personal knowledge that no Croat

23     families, in fact, did that?

24        A.   Sir, I came into the museum on the 4th of November.  These people

25     were already in the museum at that time.

Page 33337

 1        Q.   That's not my question.

 2        A.   And since I --

 3        Q.   Hold on a second.  Just -- again, my time is limited.  My

 4     question to you is -- my question to you is, because you dismiss the

 5     document and you gave us some reasons for that, but what I'm asking you

 6     about now is -- because, again, it's like the documents -- some of the

 7     other documents I have asked you about.  Whether your personal belief or

 8     you don't like the document or what happened around the time, but do you

 9     have personal knowledge, sir, that during this time, during the summer of

10     1993, none the Croats from Doljani took advantage of this situation or

11     the opportunity, what you want to call it, to move into different

12     accommodation?  And you either know or you don't know.

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   And in fact, sir, isn't it correct that the general conditions in

15     Jablanica town by June, July, August 1993, the conditions there were very

16     difficult for everyone in the town, Muslims, Croats, if there were any

17     Serbs left, I don't know, but it was a bad situation for everyone who was

18     still living in the town; correct?

19        A.   That is not correct.  The situation was difficult for everyone,

20     but it was extremely difficult for Croats and Serbs who were there.

21        Q.   All right.  Fair enough.  It was very difficult for everyone,

22     according to you more difficult for some than others, but overall it was

23     not a very happy or pleasant situation; correct?  Correct?

24        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

25        Q.   And the housing situation which had caused, for example, the --

Page 33338

 1     this family to have to move in with you in April, would it be fair to

 2     say, sir, that the housing situation as -- over the course the summer,

 3     became even worse?

 4        A.   Yes, but, again, not for everyone.

 5        Q.   And because -- for example, by July and August, isn't it correct

 6     that there were Muslim refugees and displaced persons arriving in

 7     Jablanica from places like Doljani and Stolac and Capljina, from Prozor

 8     and Mostar?  Is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   All right.  And there came a time, is it correct, that the

11     authorities in Jablanica town decided that because of the housing

12     shortage some families -- families who had more than one flat or house,

13     if you will, the families would move in together into one flat so that

14     another flat could be made available to some of these displaced persons

15     or refugees?  Correct?

16        A.   That is not correct.  You said -- you said families that had more

17     than one flat or house.  I had only one flat, and everybody else were --

18     was in the same situation.

19        Q.   Okay.  Again perhaps, sir, it's a language issue or perhaps I

20     didn't choose my words wisely enough.  When I say "family," now, I'm

21     talking about, for example, your parents -- your parents and yourself.

22     Your parents lived in a house, in a flat, if you will.  They had a house.

23     You and your immediate family had a flat.  And did it come about during

24     the summer of 1993 that you and your parents moved in -- you moved into

25     your parents' house under a programme to make other flats -- so to make

Page 33339

 1     your flat and other flats available to these other persons?  That's what

 2     was happening; correct?

 3        A.   I am one family.  My parents are another family.  My brother had

 4     his own family.  But I was expelled, my brother was expelled, and we had

 5     to go back to our parents' house after so many years.  So we're talking

 6     about three families here.

 7        Q.   All right.  But, sir, I want the Court to understand, because we

 8     talk about a lot of things in this courtroom, about ethnic cleansing and

 9     forcible transfers and expulsions, et cetera, in a lot of different

10     context.  What you're saying here is you were required to move out of

11     your own flat, if I can put it that way, your immediate family's flat,

12     and move back in with your parents in Jablanica town; correct?  I'm just

13     trying to be clear, sir, so that we know what exactly happened.

14        A.   Let me be very clear.  Suada, Bulka's daughter told me, "Mirko,

15     this morning the police said make sure you're not in this apartment any

16     more from this day on."  And in order not to expose my life to any risk

17     because there were Mujo and Hamdija who were armed members of the BH

18     army, I complied with her order and indeed I never went back to my

19     apartment.

20        Q.   And, sir, that was --

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, your flat was a flat

22     belonging to the social property, or was it your own house?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, Your Honour, all

24     apartments were socially owned.  Nobody in Jablanica had privately owned

25     apartments.  There were privately owned houses though.

Page 33340

 1             MR. SCOTT:

 2        Q.   All right, sir.  And again, don't misunderstand me.  I'm not

 3     saying it wasn't an unpleasant situation, but I do want to be very clear

 4     about exactly what it was that happened.  And that, again, was something

 5     that was happening across the town of Jablanica because of the severe

 6     housing problem, and it was happening to everyone; correct?  Muslims,

 7     Croats, everyone had to make adjustments, as difficult as they were, to

 8     provide housing.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I

10     really have to object.  I simply can't stay quiet with this way of

11     examination.

12             The Prosecutor now wants to proclaim this expulsion from the

13     man's apartment legal and lawful.  It's the same thing that happened in

14     Mostar, which the Prosecutor calls ethnic cleansing.  I really don't see

15     the point in asking the witness to qualify his expulsion from his own

16     apartment as something legal and acceptable.  I as Defence counsel in

17     this courtroom can simply not take this.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us not get into this

19     discussion.  Your objection has been recorded in the transcript.

20             Please continue, Mr. Scott.

21             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I didn't take a position one way or

22     another.  I've been simply putting questions to the witness to describe

23     what happened, and I don't understand -- I don't understand counsel's

24     issue.  Maybe there's a translation problem when it goes into Croatian, I

25     don't know.  I simply asked the witness to be very specific as to what

Page 33341

 1     happened so the Chamber knows when it considers this evidence exactly the

 2     nature of what was done.  I think it's clear to everyone in the courtroom

 3     now than it might have been an hour ago.

 4        Q.   Now, turning to the museum, sir, which has come up in your

 5     testimony, and the people who were staying at the museum.  There were two

 6     groups of people at the museum; correct?  There were people who were

 7     civilians, and again perhaps -- not perhaps, undoubtedly in very

 8     difficult circumstances, but there was a group of civilians who were at

 9     the museum, and then there was also a much smaller group of what we might

10     call prisoners of war; is that correct?

11        A.   Right.

12        Q.   And during the time that you were staying at the museum, once you

13     began your time there, and again as unfortunate as that was,

14     approximately how many civilians, putting aside the prisoners of war now,

15     and you can work with me on this, how many civilians were living at the

16     museum at that time?

17        A.   At that time, there were over 500 people in the museum.  Five

18     hundred only civilians.

19        Q.   And approximately how many of those were Muslims and how many

20     were Croat?

21        A.   I don't know of any Muslims.  I only know about Croats.  Two

22     hundred fourteen from Doljani, 35 from Grabovica, 20-something from

23     Donja Grabovica, 180 from Konjic, around 70 Croats who had been expelled

24     from apartments in Jablanica and surrounding settlements, and there were

25     even accidental passers-by who were going from Bosnia towards the sea.

Page 33342

 1     They were stopped, and when their IDs were checked somebody thought they

 2     were Croats mistakenly, and there were actually some Serbs among them.

 3             Those are the people I can remember at this moment.  And in that

 4     basement there were 88 persons who were classified as prisoners of war,

 5     22 of which escaped.  And then Zuka sent some men to that cell from which

 6     the -- this number had escaped.

 7             Those are the approximate numbers.

 8        Q.   Would you please turn to Exhibit P 06528.  P 06528.

 9        A.   Where is that?  6528.

10        Q.   Yes, sir.  There should be a translation there for you.  At least

11     I have one here.  This is an ECMM report dated the 8th of November, 1993,

12     and if I can direct your attention, please, to -- fortunately the

13     paragraphs are numbered, so if I can ask you to go to paragraph number 5

14     under the heading "Humanitarian."

15        A.   Excuse me, I don't have the Croat translation.

16        Q.   It should be -- it's right there, sir.  I'm looking -- I see it

17     there.

18        A.   You mean here on the screen.  Which paragraph?

19        Q.   Number 5, please.  This ECMM -- in this ECMM report, the ECMM

20     monitor says:  "M1 visited the refugee and POW camp in the Jablanica

21     museum where conditions were described as appalling.  Over 600 refugees

22     (Muslim and Croat) are accommodated in the building in addition to 41

23     Croat prisoners in five cells.  There is an urgent need for supplies, in

24     particular, clothing."

25             Do you see that?

Page 33343

 1        A.   I see that.

 2        Q.   Now, sir, are you disagreeing with this report that these 600

 3     refugees who were housed at the school [sic] included both Muslims and

 4     Croats?

 5        A.   Sir, only when I got out of the camp, since it was impossible for

 6     me to move away from that room where I was held, I hadn't been out of

 7     there for four months, I couldn't know what was up there in the museum.

 8     But when I got out of the camp, I found out that in the museum there had

 9     also been Muslim refugees from Stolac, but they were refugees, whereas

10     the Croats were captives.  It's not the same category.

11        Q.   All right.  So our problem has been the characterisation of not

12     who was there but apparently some were refugees and, according to you,

13     some were captives.

14             So at the school -- putting that aside for the moment then --

15     excuse me, at the museum.  At least we have -- apparently we have

16     corrected one potential disagreement.  You agree that at the -- at the

17     museum there were both Croats and Muslims being housed there, living

18     there?

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  I reject the characterisation "housed."  One are

20     captives, the other one are there as refugees.  There's quite a bit of a

21     difference.  They're not living there as is being suggested.  Let's be

22     precise with our language.

23             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honours, I'm trying to simply -- I was trying to

24     use a neutral term for how they were living there.  They were existing

25     there.  That's where they were staying at the time, under, admittedly as

Page 33344

 1     described here, difficult conditions.  It was nothing more than that.  As

 2     Mr. Karnavas says, one step at a time.

 3        Q.   So there were both Muslims and Croats at the museum during this

 4     time period?

 5        A.   Dear sir, we are going back to the same square one.  You keep

 6     torturing me, torturing me, and then you draw a conclusion and you want

 7     me to say yes.

 8             While I was at the museum I didn't know there were any Muslims

 9     there.  Only in 1994 when I got to Mostar, I found out that some Muslims

10     had been there as refugees.  All the people I had known about, because

11     when entering the museum, I saw people from Doljani and elsewhere, and

12     then I got down in the basement and I never got out again until the end.

13     So my answer was:  I didn't know there were any Muslims there.

14        Q.   You see, that's -- again that wasn't my question, about what you

15     knew at the time.  You did find out, and you agree with me from what you

16     found out, that there were Muslims and Croats in the museum at that time,

17     and the answer to that apparently is yes, you did come to know that?

18        A.   That's what you said.  You said yes.  My answer is that I didn't

19     know it while I was there.  You didn't ask me what I found out in 1995.

20        Q.   I had earlier --

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Again, Mr. Scott, I think you should --

22             MR. SCOTT:  I understand, Your Honour.  I understand.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Did you have something to say, Mr. Karnavas?

24             MR. KARNAVAS:  Yes.  It's been asked and answered.  That's what

25     I'm trying to say.

Page 33345

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  It's been asked -- one question has been asked,

 2     and the different answer has been given, but -- okay.  Go, Mr. Scott.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, well --

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  I totally disagree with you, Judge Trechsel, on

 5     this one.

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, I don't mind.  Please sit down, and,

 7     Mr. Scott, please continue.

 8             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honours, I think the nature of my questions, the

 9     tone of my questions has been fair.  I'm just trying to seek

10     clarification, and I don't think I've been pressing the witness unfairly,

11     and I think that's clear to anyone in the courtroom, the questions I put

12     in the last few minutes, so I'm not sure what the problem is.

13             Let me see where we are.

14        Q.   Sir, in connection again with the museum, and again for

15     clarification's sake, I hope I'm not pressing unfairly, but questions

16     have come up, and in fact the President asked a question about this the

17     other day and I'd like to come back to it to see if we can clarify the

18     situation.  If you have 1D 01859 available to you.  I don't think it's --

19     I'm not sure if it's in the binder, but if we can have the assistance of

20     the e-court please.  1D 01859.  It's a document that, I believe,

21     Mr. Karnavas showed to you.

22             This was a list of people at the museum, a list of Croats at the

23     museum dated the 16th of May, 1993.  And perhaps -- I believe this was --

24     let me just make sure I'm not mistaken.

25             You were listed as number 207, and your brother 208, I believe.

Page 33346

 1     207 is Mirko Zelenika.  208 is Marko Zelenika.

 2             Now, this document is dated -- first of all, the document is

 3     dated the 16th of May, 1993.  I don't know if there was an error in the

 4     date, but we understood -- or at least I had understood that you weren't

 5     kept at the museum until after the 8th of September, 1993.  Can you

 6     clarify that, please?

 7        A.   You said, sir, this was a list of people who were at the museum,

 8     but I'm telling you this is not the list of Croats who were in the

 9     museum.

10        Q.   Do you know what it is a list of, then?  Again, so the record is

11     clear, because we talked about on, I believe, Monday or Tuesday.  What is

12     it, please?  When was this list prepared, for what purpose, if you know?

13        A.   You see the date on this list, and the purpose was to know

14     exactly how many Croats in Jablanica were interned in some way,

15     ghettoized, who were unable to leave until a certain point.  Those were

16     people who were still in Jablanica, in town, but not yet at the museum.

17        Q.   So this goes back to the question that I was asking earlier about

18     how many Croats were still in Jablanica around late April, early May

19     1993, but these were not --

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, one moment, please.

21             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to

22     be of assistance to everyone in the courtroom, including Mr. Scott.  I

23     believe there is a misunderstanding of what the witness is saying.  If

24     Mr. Scott wants to go back to paragraph 7 of the ECMM report, point 7

25     explains the document we're looking at now.  The previous document,

Page 33347

 1     paragraph 7, will show why the witness is linking this current document

 2     to -- to what he's saying now.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  Well, I don't know, Your Honour, and I don't know if

 4     the witness is linking it or not.  I had understood and I appreciated the

 5     witness clarifying -- maybe I misunderstood from what was said

 6     previously, but now I understand that this is a list of civilians who

 7     were still in Jablanica, Croat civilians who were still in Jablanica town

 8     at that time period and not detained, because I thought the question that

 9     was put on -- hold on one moment.  Because it's specifically in

10     connection with this document.  The testimony was and it was by the

11     President, Your Honour, with great respect.  Judge Antonetti said, "Was

12     your brother detained with you in the museum?  This morning we saw a list

13     and he was in the list as you were."  And that's where I was coming back

14     to in connection with -- and that's the list that we were talking about

15     at the time, 1D 01859.

16        Q.   So I think you've clarified further, sir, that this was not a

17     list that was composed after you were put at the museum but as a list of

18     civilians who were in Jablanica town in mid-May 1993.  So --

19             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I want to clarify

20     something in addition to what my colleague Ms. Tomasegovic said.  The

21     title of the document we're looking at now, 1D 1859, relates also to

22     Croats who are blocked in Jablanica.  Not only the Croats who were

23     detained but those who were blocked in Jablanica.  Whereas the previous

24     document, as I suppose my colleague wanted to say regarding paragraph 7

25     of the ECMM report, says that the Muslim refugees in Jablanica were

Page 33348

 1     enabled to leave Jablanica for Bugojno, whereas the Croats were isolated

 2     and prevented from evacuating.  In that sense, they were Croats who were

 3     blocked in Jablanica without being detained yet.  That's what the

 4     document, the previous document explains.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

 6             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I was not making any of

 7     those links.  I was simply asking for clarification.  It seems like other

 8     counsel are conducting a different examination than the one that I'm

 9     conducting, but in any event, we've clarified the document.  That was my

10     only intention in terms of 1859.

11        Q.   On that point, say -- in terms of this testimony, excuse me, on

12     this same point you referred to -- you said your brother was detained in

13     Donja -- Donja Jablanica with Zuka, and then because of the consequences

14     he suffered, he died in a camp.  He was not at the museum.

15     Judge Antonetti, question, "Did he die because of the consequences of his

16     detention?"  Witness:  "Yes, that's what the doctors established."

17             And just to be clear on that, sir, so was your brother ever

18     detained at the museum or not and then moved someplace else, or was he

19     never at the museum?

20        A.   My brother was never at the museum.  If you wish, I can clarify a

21     bit more --

22        Q.   Well, sir --

23        A.   -- concerning this list.

24        Q.   I'm trying to clarify that.  No, please, I'm sorry.  My time is

25     limited.  If I had more time, sir, we could talk about a lot of things a

Page 33349

 1     lot longer, I'm afraid, both of us.  And your brother, unfortunately,

 2     then you said passed away at some point.  As a -- as here he says --

 3     well, Judge Antonetti's question was:  "Did he die because of the

 4     consequences of his detention?"

 5             Can you tell us approximately when your brother passed away,

 6     please?

 7        A.   I would appreciate it if you would stay away from questions about

 8     my brother.  If you really want to know, in the clinical hospital of

 9     Mostar there are medical files in the internist department, but I'm not

10     going to answer these questions any more.

11        Q.   I'm sorry, sir, but the question was put to you before and you

12     answered questions on this previously today, and I'm asking for

13     clarification, and I've tried to do it in a very respectful way, I think,

14     sir.  All I'm asking is:  Can you tell us the approximate date when your

15     brother passed away?  I'm sorry if that's difficult for you, but could

16     you please give us the date?

17        A.   He died five, six, or seven years later, but he had been in and

18     out of hospital all that time.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, in light of this questioning, this

20     type of questioning, it does permit me, I believe, to go into details

21     about what happened to this individual, this gentleman, as well as the

22     brother, how they were tortured and how they were treated.  We stayed

23     away from that, but now we're getting into an area where it's far afield.

24     I understand he's trying to impeach the gentleman as if he's

25     confabulating or lying about his brother.  That's what I believe is

Page 33350

 1     happening.  But now I'm not permitted to go in because one of the Judges

 2     says, how can you do that, it's tu quoque.  And quite rightly so to some

 3     degree.  But now it appears -- now it appears that a door is being wide

 4     open, and the Trial Chamber needs to make a decision.  At what point are

 5     they going to restrict the Prosecution to issues that are of relevance?

 6     I don't see anything from the Bench, and that's why I'm trying to

 7     intervene over and over again.  And so I say -- I take it from your

 8     passivity that this is an area that we can go into.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, to know the

10     relevance one should know the Prosecutor's going to.  I was listening to

11     him.  I was waiting to see what he wanted to underscore or highlight.

12     Did he seek information on the death of the witness's brother?  Did he

13     want to test the witness's credibility?  I know nothing about it.  Just

14     as when you ask questions sometimes I have no idea what you're aiming at,

15     so I let you go, and then we draw conclusions.  So here I don't know at

16     all what the Prosecutor was trying to highlight.

17             But, Witness, Mr. Karnavas said that you were tortured.  We're

18     not going to go into details, but you do confirm that it was a very

19     painful, very difficult detention.  That's what I understood, but I did

20     not want to go into details, but your counsel is returning to this issue

21     of your detention.  So -- say your lawyer or counsel.  Mr. Prlic's

22     counsel returns to this issue.  So it was a very difficult time this

23     detention; correct?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely correct.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I understood.

Page 33351

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Scott, I find Mr. Karnavas's question as to

 2     the road you are taking and where you are heading quite justified.  I had

 3     asked that before once today, but again could you -- could you explain us

 4     where this is supposed to lead?

 5             MR. SCOTT:  Well, Your Honour, I'm afraid this is a situation

 6     that everybody seems to be attributing some sort of an ulterior motive to

 7     me.  I wanted to make sure -- and I'm not injecting a new issue.  In fact

 8     I read to you, some moments ago, exactly some of the prior evidence from

 9     earlier this week.  So Ken Scott did not initiate or raise this topic.

10     So let's be very clear about that.  And I've tried to be respectful and

11     delicate with the issue, I think, but thought that it was -- it might be

12     important at some point to know what we were talking about.  And just as

13     there were Muslims who were detained who had difficult conditions and may

14     have died some years after, later, that could be the case, but I just

15     thought -- I wanted to be clear whether this is something that happened

16     at the time while he was -- while the brother was detained, as difficult

17     as that would be, or was it something that happened some time later?  And

18     the witness has answered that question.  I don't intend to pursue it any

19     further.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Move on to another topic.

21             MR. SCOTT:  As I said, Your Honour, that was exactly my intent.

22        Q.   Sir, are you familiar with -- I'm changing topics here.  Are you

23     familiar with an organisation called the Association of Volunteers and

24     Veterans of the Homeland War of Herceg-Bosna?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 33352

 1        Q.   And that is sometimes referred to, perhaps, and I don't know

 2     exactly how it would be translated, but UDIDDR?  I've seen it both UDIDDR

 3     and also HDIDDR.  Is that correct?

 4        A.   I don't know exactly what the acronym stands for, but you cited

 5     the correct name.

 6        Q.   All right.  And have you been a member of that organisation, sir?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   All right.  Do you recall, sir, in 2000 being involved in a

 9     protest about the work of the ICTY?

10        A.   I can't remember unless you help me.

11        Q.   If you could look, please, in the binder at P 10654.  Sir, this

12     is a news account of a -- what was described as a rally in January of

13     2000 that was apparently organised by the HBIDRA, and you were indicated

14     as having been present, about the middle of the page.  You should see it

15     also in the Croatian version:  "Mirko Zelenika, president of the

16     Prisoners' Association of Mostar."  The statement is attributed to you:

17     "The political leadership of the Croat people in Bosnia-Herzegovina must

18     break its silence and define the aims of the Croats in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina."

20             Do you remember participating in this rally?

21        A.   I can't confirm that.

22        Q.   Have you ever taken a position, sir, or expressed a view on the

23     creation or establishment of a separate Croat entity in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Some might have called it as the third entity.

25        A.   No.

Page 33353

 1        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that in connection with your testimony here

 2     and your role in the Jablanica municipality at the time, in fact you were

 3     one of the leading HVO activists in Jablanica municipality in 1992, 1993,

 4     weren't you?

 5        A.   Absolutely not.

 6        Q.   In fact, sir, you were one of the leading idealogues of the

 7     organisation, weren't you?

 8        A.   By no means.

 9        Q.   In connection with this rally in 2000, did you talk about the

10     fact that every form of cooperation with the international community must

11     be re-examined?

12        A.   I've told you that I can't confirm I was at that rally.

13        Q.   You can't -- are you saying you can't confirm and you're also not

14     denying?

15        A.   I am denying.  I wasn't there and I didn't say anything.

16        Q.   Have you ever talked about the holding of a referendum on the

17     establishment of a Croat entity in Bosnia?

18        A.   Absolutely not.

19        Q.   Have you ever discussed with anyone, in 2000, of defining the

20     aims of the Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Did you express any view around this time, whether on that

23     particular occasion or not but in January 2000 or in that time period,

24     something along the lines that if the demands stated in this news item,

25     if they -- if these demands are not met, we will -- we shall be held

Page 33354

 1     responsible by history and the Croat people which will be faced with its

 2     own extinction?

 3        A.   No.

 4             MR. SCOTT:  If I can just check on time, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Were you -- before we leave at that document, sir, were you the

 6     president of the Prisoners' Association as indicated in this -- in that

 7     report around that time?

 8        A.   What year?

 9        Q.   In 2000, sir, or 1999, 2000, 2001.  During that general time

10     period, had you been the president of something called the

11     Prisoners' Association?  And that may not be the full title, and if you

12     were, perhaps you can assist us.

13        A.   Yes.  In that period I was the president of the Croatian

14     Association of Camp Inmates or Prisoners.

15        Q.   All right.  All right.  Sir, the final topic that I would like to

16     turn to is questions that were put to you by various of the Defence

17     counsel in connection with some additional events in April and May of

18     1993.

19             Isn't it correct, sir, that the HVO actions that took place in

20     Jablanica municipality in mid-April of 1993 were all part of an overall

21     HVO plan arising or in connection with the HVO ultimatum that was given

22     earlier that month with the 15 April deadline?

23        A.   Well, the question is isn't it correct.  Well, sir, it is

24     absolutely not true, not correct what you say in your question.

25        Q.   Well, you had heard around that time of a decision issued by the

Page 33355

 1     HVO government to -- calling for this -- the ABiH to either leave the

 2     areas -- the Croat-controlled areas or subordinate themselves to the HVO

 3     by the 15th of April 1993, hadn't you?

 4        A.   Sir, this decision that you just mentioned is something that I've

 5     never heard of.  That's not correct.

 6        Q.   All right.  Let me -- let me stay with you a few moments longer

 7     and let me see if we can make any progress on that.  Can I ask you to

 8     look at P 01808.  P 01808.

 9        A.   Where would it be?

10        Q.   1808.

11             MR. SCOTT:  We some assistance, please, Mr. Usher.  P 01808.

12             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

13             MR. SCOTT:

14        Q.   So this is a news item for Borba, which I understand is a

15     publication in Belgrade, and on the 5th of April, 1993, reporting in the

16     second paragraph, it's from a -- excuse me.  It's been reported -- the

17     byline is Zagreb, and it says:  "The Croatian Defence Council yesterday

18     called for the pull-out of Muslim troops from the provinces assigned to

19     the Croats under a UN peace plan thus heightening the tensions between

20     the nominal allies.

21             "The HVO command set April 15 as the deadline for

22     Alija Izetbegovic to sign a joint document which calls for the pull-out

23     of troops and the creation of a Joint Command, thus confirming that there

24     are no disagreements between the Croats and Muslims.

25             "If Izetbegovic does not sign the agreement by 15 April, the HVO

Page 33356

 1     will unilaterally establish its authority" --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you kindly slow down.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  My apologies to the interpreters.

 4             "Establish its authority in provinces 3, 8, and 10, says a

 5     communique from the HVO General Staff in Mostar.  Croatian radio said

 6     yesterday that Bosnian Croat leader Mate Boban has signed the document

 7     and was waiting for the response of the Muslim authorities."

 8             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may be allowed

 9     to object to this question.  I would like to draw your attention to the

10     fact that this is a report that was taken from the Croatian radio and

11     published by Reuters, a British agency, and then it was published in a

12     Belgrade daily, Borba.  So this is just one media outlet retelling a

13     story picked up from another media outlet, and I would like us to make

14     sure that we all know that this is not the ultimatum itself.  It is just

15     a series of retelling of the story of the ultimatum from one media to

16     another.

17             MR. SCOTT:  Yes.  No one ever said anything to the contrary.

18     Again, I'm not sure what the objection is.  It's a media article.  If the

19     Chamber would like to and if the courtroom would like to look at P 10675,

20     you will see similar articles written on the 4th of April, 1993, in

21     Reuters.  Similar article in the Financial Times on the 20th of April,

22     1993.  Similar article in the Christian Science Monitor on 7 April 1993.

23     A similar article dated 6 April 1993 in the Agency French Press,

24     Agence France Presse.  And I won't pretend that my French is anything,

25     but in the AFP.  So counsel can pick any of the four or five articles she

Page 33357

 1     wants.

 2        Q.   Sir, isn't it correct that -- are you saying that you had never

 3     heard at the time, despite the fact that it was being reported around the

 4     world, that this deadline of April 15th, 1993, had been set?

 5        A.   I didn't hear about that, sir.  You have to know that we in

 6     Jablanica were in a media blockade too.  We didn't read the papers.

 7        Q.   Well, sir, in the course of -- in the course of the last few days

 8     you've told us, in fact, that you had the television.  You listened to

 9     the radio.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.

11             MR. SCOTT:  Is this a legal objection or is --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What do you want to say,

13     Mr. Praljak?  Mr. Praljak?

14             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] It's not a legal objection.

15     It's an objection because the Prosecutor keeps referring to the British

16     and American media, the term that they -- that they broadcasted all over

17     the world.  Britain and the US are not the whole world.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Scott.

19             MR. SCOTT:  So stipulated, Your Honour.  It's not the whole world

20     but Financial Times, Reuters, AFP, are pretty widely disseminated news

21     sources.  All right.  But we have -- in any event the witness says there

22     was a blockade.

23        Q.   But my question to you, sir, in response to that was, I thought

24     you told us over the past several days that there was radio, there was

25     television, that, in fact, these were all things that you were listening

Page 33358

 1     to in this time period.  Isn't that correct?

 2        A.   No, that's not correct.  We are now in 1993, and in 1992 we were

 3     able to follow.  We watched the TV, listened to radio and read the

 4     newspapers, but by 1993 we stopped watching TV and reading the papers and

 5     listening to the radio.

 6        Q.   And so even in the local news radio, because here it says, in the

 7     first document, P 01808, for example, says that:  "A communique was

 8     issued by the HVO General Staff in Mostar."  Some of us must might call

 9     that a press release.  And then it goes on to say that:  "Croatian radio

10     said yesterday that Bosnian Croat leader Mate Boban had signed the

11     document."

12             So are you telling the Judges that, to your knowledge, no press

13     releases or communiques from the HVO General Staff were being

14     communicated around this time and that you were not getting Croatian

15     radio around this time?

16        A.   Well, if I had listened to it, I would have heard something; but

17     because I didn't listen, I didn't hear.  And in particular, I did not

18     hear anything of the sort of the thing that you're asking me about.

19        Q.   All right.  Well, let me just try one more thing and then we'll

20     see whether we pursue it further or not.  Can I ask you to turn next to

21     P 01911.  P 01911.

22             If you have that, sir.  This is again an ECMM report titled,

23     "The Present Jablanica Crisis."  It is dated on the last page the 16th of

24     April, 1993.  And if I can direct your attention, please, to item number

25     3, which is titled, "Political Activity."

Page 33359

 1             Just one moment, please.  My apologies.  That relates to another

 2     part of my -- let me ask you to look to item 4, "Military Activity."

 3        A.   Military activities.

 4        Q.   If you have that, sir.  Excuse me a moment.  My apologies.  It's

 5     entirely my fault.  My notes aren't correct, that I've made myself.

 6     Purely my fault.  Let me try again.

 7             Item -- section number 6, which is titled "Indicators."

 8             My apologies to the courtroom.  I had the document marked for a

 9     number of different purposes, and I went to the wrong place.

10             Sir, in that section 6, and this is the particular aspect that I

11     want --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, this document P 1911

13     is deposited under seal.

14             MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honour.  I think it's one of those

15     documents that we can use but should not be broadcast outside the

16     courtroom.  We can talk about it, but just so long as it's not being

17     broadcast outside the courtroom, please.  Thank you.  Thank you,

18     Mr. President.

19        Q.   Sir, in item 6 it says -- the second line says:  "The HVO had

20     declared their intent to implement the Vance-Owen Plan."

21             Skipping down.  In connection with the radio, that's the media

22     that we've been talking in the last few minutes, it says:  "The HVO make

23     regular radio broadcast ultimatums to the Muslim forces in Herceg-Bosna

24     (never written), yet seldom follow up the ultimatums suggesting that the

25     concept is to provoke the Muslims into actions that can be used to

Page 33360

 1     justification for aggression in the name of defence."

 2             My point to you is not to argue the politics of it at this point,

 3     but again it says the regular radio broadcasts were made about these

 4     topics and about ultimatums.  Now, just let me -- you don't recall any --

 5     hearing any of that in any of the media, either in the print media or the

 6     electronic media, in the Jablanica area around this time?  Sir?

 7        A.   Sir, at that time I spent my time digging, from 7.00 until 4.30

 8     in the afternoon.  And even if I had wanted to, I wouldn't have been in a

 9     position to read anything or to listen to anything.

10             MR. SCOTT:  Let me check my notes, Your Honours.

11        Q.   Mr. Zelenika, in light of those answers, I won't persist in that

12     particular line.  I want to tell you again that none of my questioning

13     was meant to cause you any particular pain or difficulty, but sometimes

14     it may be difficult.  Thank you.

15             MR. SCOTT:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We should stop in

17     ten minutes.  Are there any redirect questions?

18             MR. KARNAVAS:  There are some, Your Honour.  I can do it now or

19     we could take a break.  If we're going to be going past -- beyond -- if

20     there are any other matters that we're going to be dealing with, then we

21     could take the break.  Otherwise --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I know that Ms. Alaburic

23     wants to talk about housekeeping questions.  So the best would be to

24     break now and you will redirect after the break, and we will talk about

25     the housekeeping matters after that.

Page 33361

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, you may proceed.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.  I don't believe I'll take more than

 5     five minutes or so.

 6                           Re-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

 7        Q.   Just three areas of clarification, sir.  The first one deals with

 8     a document that was shown to you today, and that was P 10669, and I have

 9     it here.  And this was in connection, of course -- if you could just look

10     at that for a second.  And, of course, today on page 4 it was noted, and

11     I quote, this is on line 21:  "Sir, you testified yesterday that you

12     never received any salary or money in connection with working for MUP

13     security station in Jablanica."

14             Do you recall being asked that question?

15             MR. KARNAVAS:  We need the mics for the gentleman.  The

16     microphones, that is.

17        Q.   Now, let me show you this document -- if you could repeat the

18     answer so we could get it on the record.  Do you recall being asked that

19     question today and shown this document?

20        A.   I do.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now let's go back to a document that I showed you

22     yesterday, and that was 1D 03038, and maybe if we can get the usher to

23     help us out here so the gentleman doesn't have to look for it.

24             Now, you recall me showing you this document.  Now, this is

25     dated, as we can see, 29 October 1992.  This is from the Jablanica

Page 33362

 1     municipality Presidency, and we can see under Roman numeral II that you

 2     are temporarily sent to work in the public security station.  Okay?  Do

 3     you have that?  Are you with me?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And if I understand it -- if I understand your testimony

 6     correctly yesterday, when you said you did not receive a salary, that was

 7     in relation to this -- this decision and this appointment to temporary

 8     work at the public security station in Jablanica; is that correct?

 9        A.   Precisely.

10        Q.   Now, if we look at the document that was shown to you today, of

11     which you said you received from some -- some salary for work that was

12     related to something other than police work, if we look at that document,

13     and I don't know if it was missed but it certainly wasn't covered today,

14     if we look at the first part -- first page, we see that this is from the

15     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So it's the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna that is providing

18     you with a salary for some 23 days of work that you did?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   All right.  So when you said yesterday that you had not received

21     a salary from the Jablanica municipality for the appointment of public

22     security station Jablanica, the one that I just showed you, 1D 03038.

23     You stand by that answer, correct, or do you wish to change it?

24        A.   Could you repeat that, please?

25        Q.   All right.  There seems to be -- I mean, the reason this was

Page 33363

 1     mentioned today was to suggest, perhaps, that you might have been

 2     confused or maybe you weren't quite truthful when you said that you never

 3     received a salary.  And so I take it when you -- when you said you didn't

 4     receive a salary, that was for the appointment 1D 03038 with the

 5     Jablanica municipality Presidency appointing you to this temporary

 6     position.

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.  For this appointment I never got a salary.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I just add a question which I find

10     interesting.

11             Witness, if one looks at this document, one gets the impression

12     that there is a Jablanica police station which depends directly on Mostar

13     and not at all to Jablanica municipality.  Do I understand this

14     correctly?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no such thing as the

16     Jablanica police station.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, it's Politsiska Stanica Jablanica.  That

18     does not exist according to you?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Jablanica police

20     station existed on this date, the 2nd of April -- is it 1993 or 1994?

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  It's 1993, according to the document.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1993, yes.  But on the 29th of

23     October, 1992, I was sent to the police station in Jablanica where I did

24     not receive a salary and where I did not spend a long time, 15 days

25     perhaps.

Page 33364

 1             Afterwards, I turned over all the documentation to Mostar, to the

 2     Herceg-Bosna police, and it was in the process of being resolved.  I had

 3     no new appointment, but in the meantime, they were giving me some sort of

 4     pay.  Since I had no appointment to the police, I was doing something

 5     else, and that something else was the supervision of works on road

 6     construction.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  I think we're limited in time.  I

 8     could not say that it is absolutely clear to me, but I do not insist now

 9     because the time is limited.

10             MR. KARNAVAS:

11        Q.   All right.  Now, let me just ask one follow-up question, because

12     there may be some confusion.  As of this date on April 1993, is there an

13     HVO or Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna police station in Jablanica?

14        A.   Not all aspects of the police.  There were no uniformed men.

15     There were no police vehicles.  This so-called police performed just a

16     small fraction of administrative work such as collecting documents

17     required for issuing Croatian passports.  If you can call that police,

18     then --

19        Q.   All right.  Well, you said collecting documents.  Were they

20     actually issuing Croatian passports or merely collecting the documents

21     and then forwarding -- forwarding them onwards?

22        A.   They certainly didn't issue passports.  They just physically

23     collected these documents and carried them somewhere.  I don't know

24     where, perhaps to Mostar.  I had nothing to do with the collecting of

25     documents.  I just received a small amount of money considering that I

Page 33365

 1     had already received some papers for the police.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now, there was some questioning about Dr. Cibo and

 3     the legality of his appointment, and I brought it up.  It was brought up

 4     on cross-examination.  And I would like now for us to revisit a document

 5     that we really didn't discuss too much, and this is 1D 02777.  And this

 6     is for clarification purposes.

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  If I could get the usher to help us out here.

 8     This will save some time.  It's 1D 02777.  And that would be in the

 9     chapter dealing with civilian authorities, I believe.

10        Q.   Now, if you look at this document, we see that this is from

11     Konjic municipality, and we see that this is from the president of the

12     War Presidency, Dr. Rusmir Hadzihusejnovic.  I think I got it right.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now -- and, in fact, before his name we see a Prim Doctor.  I

15     take it he is a medical doctor, right?  Correct?

16        A.   Yes, Primarius Doctor.

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... a title given or earned by

18     doctors of high esteem, that have been recognised within the medical

19     community for their abilities; is that correct?

20        A.   Very experienced medical doctors can get that title for special

21     merits.

22        Q.   All right.  Now, if we could look at this document, because you

23     were asked about the legality, and I'm going to focus your attention to

24     paragraph number 2, in the middle of it.  I'll read portions of it, and

25     then I'll ask you to comment.  It says here:  "Accordingly, the

Page 33366

 1     War Presidency of the Municipal Assembly of Konjic was nominated pursuant

 2     to the decision number 10-042-9/92 of 26/10/1992 in the composition as

 3     provided for in paragraph 40 of the ordinance on defence with the force

 4     of law.  In all the time since the formation, the War Presidency has been

 5     holding sessions and making decisions on the issues within the competence

 6     of the Municipal Assembly for the conditions of the Assembly to meet have

 7     not existed and still do not exist."

 8             Let's stop here for a second.  Was the situation in Jablanica any

 9     different than what is being described by the president of the

10     War Presidency in Konjic at this time?

11        A.   No.  The situation in Jablanica was identical to the situation in

12     Konjic at the time.

13        Q.   All right.  We go on.  "We point out that the War Presidency,

14     through its work, has been enforcing the regulations and other provisions

15     of the Presidency of the republic, and those of the government and

16     ministries, and has been performing the task specified in the defence

17     plan of the republic."

18             Let me stop here.  Was Jablanica doing the same thing at this

19     point in time?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And now let's go to the final paragraph.  "Considering the above

22     stated, we fail to understand why the Presidency of the RB-H by the said

23     decision should now appoint Dr. Cibo Safet president of the

24     War Presidency of the Municipal Assembly of Konjic, considering that it

25     was Prim Dr. Rusmir Hadzihusejnovic, the legally elected president of the

Page 33367

 1     Municipal Assembly of Konjic, who was elected president of the War

 2     Presidency in the municipality of Konjic, all pursuant to the ordinance

 3     on defence with the force of law."

 4             My final question is:  In Jablanica was the war president also

 5     duly elected, legally elected, as was Dr. Rusmir Hadzihusejnovic in the

 6     War Presidency?

 7        A.   Yes.  In Jablanica the president of the War Presidency was

 8     elected legally, just as Mr. Rusmir Hadzihusejnovic was.

 9        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Finally, I just want to bring up one last

10     item just for clarification purposes because there was a question from

11     the Bench and -- yesterday, that is, concerning a list.  1D 1 -- 1859.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:  If I could get the usher to assist us here, I

13     would be most grateful.

14        Q.   This is the list that was shown to you and that was -- you're on

15     the list.  You're on the list of -- your brother's on the list, and I

16     believe your mother and father are on the list.  Is that correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   And of course, there was some confusion as to whether this was

19     the list from the museum or whether it was just a list of Croats in

20     Jablanica.  And I believe at some point you -- you use a particular word

21     that I thought was worth -- I jotted down and it caught my attention and

22     I want you to explain it.  You used the word "ghetto."  Can you please

23     tell us, what did you mean by that and what does it reflect, keeping in

24     mind the time that this list was drawn up?

25        A.   I'll try.  The thing is that from the arrival of Dr. Safet Cibo

Page 33368

 1     and from the beginning of the war between the army of BH and the HVO, all

 2     the Croats who found themselves on the territory held by the BH army were

 3     unable to leave the territory whether they wanted to seek medical

 4     treatment or they simply wanted to go.  Some attempted to leave but they

 5     were caught and sent to the museum.  So those who found themselves there

 6     had to do the trench digging like I did, and they were practically

 7     interned, isolated, or kept in a ghetto.  Until 1994 they were unable to

 8     leave that area.

 9             I hope this explanation makes it clear.

10        Q.   I just want to make sure we're clear, because the word

11     "territory" was used and now "area."  Are we speaking about a particular

12     area within Jablanica where the Croats are being confined and they can't

13     move out of there?  Is that what you're telling us?

14        A.   Yes, yes.  I'm talking about the area held by the BH army.  All

15     the Croats who found themselves in that area had no way of leaving.

16        Q.   And that's why you characterised it as internment?

17        A.   Yes.  And they had to do digging work like I did, or they were

18     taken to the museum.  There were also other camps in Jablanica.  Some

19     were sent to other camps.  Simply due to the horrible situation in that

20     area they were trying to leave in all possible ways, but it was

21     impossible.  The BH army wouldn't let them.

22        Q.   One final question, because it came up today about your

23     dissatisfaction with this institution, the Tribunal and its work.

24     Yesterday I believe you told us, or it might have been the day before,

25     that you did, in fact, assist investigators from this particular Tribunal

Page 33369

 1     in gathering evidence; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And for how many years did you do that?

 4        A.   Three and a half years.

 5        Q.   And could you please tell us how often or how many times did you

 6     meet with these investigators to -- to assist them?

 7        A.   I can.  An investigating team came to Mostar from this Tribunal

 8     at least 22 times in that three-and-a-half-year period.  Each time they

 9     would stay three to five days.  And my role was to meet their requests by

10     securing the presence of persons they listed in advance, and these people

11     were potential witnesses for specific cases.

12        Q.   All right.  And were you compensated?  Were you paid for that

13     work?

14        A.   Not by investigators.

15        Q.   All right.  Did you ever complain that the Tribunal or the

16     investigators weren't paying you for that work?

17        A.   Well, I never asked them to be paid.

18        Q.   All right.  And finally, we understand that a statement was taken

19     in -- with regard to one particular case, but you were never called;

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes.  The statement was taken, and I expected an invitation, but

22     I never got the call.

23        Q.   And the invitation you were expecting was because you wanted to

24     tell your story about what had happened to you in addition to what you --

25     what you knew; correct?

Page 33370

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   And, in fact, you asked me if I could ask questions so that you

 3     would be allowed to tell your story, and I told you that that wasn't for

 4     this particular case; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I want to thank you again, sir, for giving your

 7     testimony here.

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  I have no further questions, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I just add some questions to this last

10     series.  You said about three and a half years.  Could you give us the

11     beginning and end of this period, from when until when?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can give you the precise

13     time-frame.  My first contact was with them in May 1995.

14     Mr. Tom Kempenaars was the person.  The investigation began in September

15     1995.  The team leader was Mr. Abribat Regis.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me if I interrupt you.  I'm not asking

17     about the names of the investigators.  I take it the beginning of the

18     three and a half years was in 1995.  Did it then go through to 1998?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you very much.  And the second question:

21     When asked whether you were paid, you -- you did not simply answer no,

22     but you said, "Not by the investigators," and this raises in me the

23     question whether you were paid by anybody else.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And who was that?

Page 33371

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the centre for

 2     investigation and documentation in Mostar.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On my own behalf and on behalf

 5     of my colleagues, I want to thank you for testifying, and for the

 6     Prlic Defence.  If questions may have appeared to be difficult or tough,

 7     that's the rules and that's the proceedings as they are.  Everyone asked

 8     the questions that they deemed necessary, and this is also why Judges put

 9     questions to you.  If, unfortunately, this brought painful memories to

10     the surface, we're very sorry for that.

11             We wish you a very good trip back home, and I shall now ask the

12     usher to escort you out of this courtroom.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We have a few

16     housekeeping matters.  Before I give the floor to Ms. Alaburic, let me

17     say this:  On the 27th of October, Mr. Karnavas is to start the testimony

18     of Neven Tomic.  On Monday, we will be starting at 9.00.  So we'll work

19     from 9.00 to 12.30, then from 2.00 to 2.30, I can't remember, until 4.00,

20     because this courtroom is going to be used at 4.30 for a contempt case.

21     So we'll start in the morning on Monday.  That might be a problem for you

22     if you have to proof the witness.  No.  It doesn't seem to be the case.

23     So much the better.

24             Ms. Alaburic.

25             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you.  I will

Page 33372

 1     really be very brief.  The Honourable Trial Chamber made an oral ruling

 2     that you communicated to us today on page 1 of today's transcript;

 3     namely, that the part of my cross-examination of the witness who just

 4     left is to be considered as new issues, new questions, and in view of

 5     that the Trial Chamber will make the appropriate decision and deduct this

 6     time from the time allocated to the Petkovic Defence.

 7             Since this was a short oral ruling, it does not contain, of

 8     course, a statement of reasons.  At first blush, I would say that it is

 9     not well founded because I would say these are not new issues but,

10     rather, issues that are directly related to the answers of the witness on

11     pages of the transcript from the 14th October, 40 to 41, answers namely

12     related to document 1D 2758.

13             The second reason that casts doubt on the appropriateness of this

14     decision is the fact that the Prosecution recently received the right to

15     open new questions according to Rule 90(H) under a recent decision of the

16     Trial Chamber.

17             Since this decision applies to both the Prosecution and the

18     Defence, I believe it applies to the Petkovic Defence and the

19     Prosecution, but if this right does not belong equally to all the Defence

20     teams, I would like to know what the reasons for this decision of the

21     Trial Chamber are.

22             One the first prerequisites for an appellant appealing a decision

23     is to review the reasons for the appeal, and I would appreciate it,

24     therefore, if the Trial Chamber could put its oral ruling in writing

25     stating the reasons, and then I would be able to assess whether it is

Page 33373

 1     correct ruling.  And if I so decide after reviewing the reasons, I would

 2     apply for certification to appeal this decision.  And that is all I had

 3     to say.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Alaburic.  The

 5     Trial Chamber will, of course, look into this and will keep you informed

 6     of whether we're going to have a written or oral decision.  I can't give

 7     you an answer right now.

 8             Are there any other matters or topics?  I'm turning to my right.

 9     No.  Very well.  We shall reconvene on Monday at 2.15.  I wish you and

10     Mr. Karnavas a good time working until then so that we can work as calmly

11     as possible next week.

12             See you on Monday.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.11 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day

15                           of October, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.