090225ED

Page 37390

1 this is connected with a 92 ter procedure that was brought up by the

2 Defence for General Praljak, and Mr. Kovacic will ask you a few

3 questions. And thereafter, possibly the other lawyers may have some very

4 short questions to ask you, and OTP will have 30 minutes for his

5 cross-examination. We don't want you to lose any time. We know you have

6 some very precious responsibilities and that you can be here only today

7 so we shall make every effort so that your hearing end today.

8 I am, of course, counting on the diligence of all the parties

9 involved so that that can be done today.

10 Ms. Nozica, let me give you the floor immediately.

11 Examination by Ms. Nozica:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon to

13 everyone in the courtroom and good afternoon to you too, Mr. Kvesic.

14 A. Good afternoon.

15 Q. I'd like us to go through your CV as quickly as possible from

16 university level to the post you hold today in the clinical hospital of

17 Mostar. Can you tell the Court when you graduated from the Faculty of

18 Medicine?

19 A. In 1988 in Rijeka.

20 Q. Can you also tell the Court where you got your first job?

21 A. In 1989, at the beginning of November, I started working in the

22 Siroki Brijeg health centre in the school outpatients department.

23 Q. [No interpretation]

24 A. I was a general practitioner and I worked with students, regular

25 schoolchildren's medical examinations, and from time to time, I would be

Page 37391

1 on duty at the emergency ward. And that was the case until 1991 when the

2 war began and my life changed completely, so that I went into a

3 semi-wartime post because the wounded began coming in and I became a

4 wartime doctor and an army doctor and a combination of all that.

5 During 19 -- yes.

6 Q. Well, just take it slowly because I am checking to see that

7 everything that you say is recorded in the transcript. Anyway, you were

8 working in the medical centre in Siroki Brijeg and was anything happening

9 there during 1992? Did you take on a new post of any kind?

10 A. Sometime in April 1992, Siroki Brijeg was shelled by the

11 Yugoslav Army and that morning there were seven persons who were killed

12 and a lot of people wounded, and we were faced with that situation. They

13 were transformed to the medical centre so we became a semi-civilian

14 semi-medical semi-military school. And pursuant to a municipality

15 decision, I became chief of the medical corps and we started working in a

16 different way because we placed priority on the soldiers and the wounded,

17 and that was the case until September, or rather the end of September.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly be asked to slow down.

19 Thank you.

20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Dr. Kvesic, regardless of the fact that I have to take care of

22 the time but it's much more important for me and for us all that

23 everything is recorded properly, so could you speak a little more slowly,

24 please. You said that was the case until September 1992, now what

25 happened then, what happened next?

Page 37392

1 A. On the 29th of September, 1992, pursuant to orders from

2 Dr. Ivan Bagaric and a decision from Mate Boban, I went to Mostar and

3 became the commander of the regional wartime hospital of Mostar.

4 Q. And that was at the proposal of Mr. Bagaric or was it an order?

5 A. It was a proposal according to a decision made by the president

6 of HZ-HB, Mate Boban, and I got papers stating that I had been appointed

7 commander and with those credentials I went to Mostar.

8 Q. And how long did you stay in the hospital in Mostar?

9 A. Well, in a way I'm still -- well, anyway as a walkabout of the

10 regional wartime hospital, I stayed there in that capacity until the

11 20th of January, 1994. That is to say, pursuant to a HZ-HB government

12 decision, the hospital was proclaimed a clinical hospital of Mostar as a

13 fledgling institution, and they started to move towards peacetime work

14 and organisation. Although during the war as well we did function as a

15 civilian hospital because we had patients that weren't soldier, but that

16 was the official date when we started to work under peacetime conditions

17 and in the way we worked in peacetime.

18 Now, of course, the events in Mostar and around Mostar and

19 pursuant to the Defence minister, who was Vlado Soljic at the time, a

20 portion of the hospital staff, and it had become a clinical hospital as

21 well, they were mobilised and we had -- and about 150 people were

22 mobilised and remained in that capacity and continued to help the wounded

23 and took part in covering the terrain with their medical teams and

24 surgical teams.

25 Q. What you are just talking about now, pursuant to an order from

Page 37393

1 the minister, could you repeat the name because we haven't got the name

2 in the transcript, but tell us, when was all this going on?

3 A. The 20th of January was when the hospital was proclaimed, 1994,

4 that is, when the hospital was proclaimed a clinical hospital as a newly

5 formed and fledgling institution. But as the war was still going on,

6 then the Defence minister, Vladimir Soljic at that time, took a decision

7 or, rather, issued an order whereby part of the medical staff and

8 non-medical staff were mobilised, and this meant up to about 150 people.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly be asked to slow down.

10 Thank you.

11 JUDGE PRANDLER: Dr. Kvesic, I would like to ask you again, like

12 the interpreters did, and also Madam Nozica also asked you to slow down

13 and also to pause, to have the break to respect that there are

14 interpretations for the various languages and you have to stop any time

15 when the question is being asked and before you answer. So I would like

16 to ask you to do that. Thank you.

17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You mentioned a date, the 20th of January, 1994. What was your

19 position in the hospital at that time?

20 A. Up until the 20th of January, 1994, I was the commander of the

21 regional wartime hospital of Mostar. After that date, we started a

22 procedure for moving to a civilian hospital with a civilian director and

23 this was done over the next few months when Dr. Zoran Rebac, who was a

24 surgeon, came to head the hospital on the basis of a competition and job

25 advertisement. And my function was president of the management board and

Page 37394

1 I was in that post for two mandates, and then afterwards I went after

2 specialised child surgery in Rijeka.

3 Q. Tell me, when did you leave to specialize in child surgery in

4 Rijeka, and during what period were you there?

5 A. The first part of my specialisation course was in Mostar in

6 January 1995 when I went to Rijeka to the children's clinic at the part

7 of Rijeka called Kantrida.

8 Q. And how long did you stay there?

9 A. I stayed there until 1998. In the spring I sat my examination,

10 passed, and went to take up my work in the Children's Hospital and since

11 then I've been working in the Children's Hospital of Mostar.

12 Q. Now, after 1998, did you have some other posts and functions that

13 you occupied until 2001 or thereabouts?

14 A. Parallel to my specialisation --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, I see you raising

16 questions that I do not believe are relevant. You have one hour only,

17 there a lot of documents, so keep to the basics, to the essentials.

18 Finding out what he did in 1998 is secondary compared to what happened in

19 1992 and 1993.

20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will abide by

21 that, but this was all important to me because of the credibility of the

22 witness, that he was head of the surgery department at the Faculty of

23 Medicine and that he held various other posts and functions, but I will

24 follow your guidance and stick to basics.

25 Q. Tell me please, Mr. Kvesic, when did the regional hospital of

Page 37395

1 Mostar come into being and that's the one we are interested in for 1992

2 and 1993?

3 A. By a decision of the municipal council of the city of Mostar, I

4 think it was in May 1992 that the decision was passed, the Mostar

5 hospital was proclaimed to be a wartime hospital, a war hospital. And

6 during that time, Dr. Milenko Lugonja was appointed commander of the war

7 hospital of Mostar.

8 In September, that is to say, at the end of September 1992,

9 proposed by the Defence minister Mr. Ivan Bagaric, Mr. Mate Boban, the

10 president of Herceg-Bosna appointed me as commander of the regional war

11 hospital, and that's when it got its new name, regional war hospital in

12 Mostar.

13 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, after the Defence Department was

14 founded of the HVO HZ-HB, do you know in what sector this regional

15 hospital belonged to, the regional hospital in Mostar, what sector did it

16 belong to?

17 A. The Mostar regional war hospital was under the Health Sector led

18 by Ivan Bagaric.

19 Q. I see, thank you. Mr. Kvesic, during our proofing session we

20 discussed the internal setup of the Defence Department and especially the

21 Security Sector and you said that you are not well versed in

22 organisational matters or the legal norms and provisions, so we'll skip

23 over that part and skip over the first document in my binder, and P 02477

24 is the document we are going to skip over. I'd like you to look at the

25 next document in order. I think you have a binder, do you? May we ask

Page 37396

1 the usher's assistance, he will help us out.

2 Sir, let's take a look at the next document which is P3355. So

3 we've skipped the first one and we are on to the second.

4 Mr. Kvesic, this is a report on the work of the Defence

5 Department for the period from January to June 1993. Could you take a

6 look at page 26, please, in the Croatian version, and it is page 23 of

7 the English. Tell me when you've found the page.

8 A. Yes, I've found it.

9 Q. Now, the report for the period begins there, for the Health

10 Sector, and that's the sector that you belonged to, that is to say, your

11 hospital, the one we mentioned earlier on; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, let's look at the next page, page 27. It is page 24 of the

14 English where it says the following:

15 "Within the frameworks of the health centre the following are

16 active: The main medical corps staff, the service for caring for the

17 wounded, the control and inspection service with its sub-services."

18 Is that right, is that what it says there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And to the best of your recollection, is that how it was?

21 A. Yes, I think that would be right.

22 Q. Would you take a look at page 36 now, please, which is page 35 in

23 the English. Within the frameworks of the service for caring for the

24 wounded --

25 A. Just a moment, please, I don't think I've found it yet. I have

Page 37397

1 page 33 and then it skips to page 37. I don't seem to have the right

2 page.

3 Q. Well, could you follow the transcript, then, or, rather, look at

4 the screen in front of you, it's on e-court where we have the service for

5 the -- for care and attention to the wounded. Was your hospital within

6 that service?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, the next page, 36 of the Croatian which is page 35 of the

9 English. 35, please. It will come up on your screen in just a moment.

10 It says:

11 "Mostar war hospital functions within the frameworks of the

12 regional medical centre and reserve location at Bijeli Brijeg." Is that

13 the hospital?

14 A. Yes. Yes, that's the hospital we are talking about. It had five

15 locations in town which is why we have the reserve hospital. That was

16 the new building that had been completed and only a part of it was

17 operational. During the war we had our surgical ward in town in the old

18 surgical ward, and at Bijeli Brijeg in the new hospital, so it was

19 actually in two locations.

20 Q. Could we look at page 37 in e-court, or if you could find it, but

21 please trust me, I will read you just one passage. That's on page 36 in

22 English.

23 In this reporting period, from January until June 1993, it says

24 in the report:

25 "From the Mostar wartime hospital, the Muslim staff have fled.

Page 37398

1 We are appealing to you to prohibit the departure of health workers from

2 the HZ-HB. We have the minimum number of surgeons, a surgical team from

3 Zagreb is helping us. In Mostar we have lost 12 ambulances, a driver was

4 killed and four wounded."

5 Witness, was the situation as described here?

6 A. Yes, that's correct. In fact, it was even worse, but these are

7 facts and it's quite simply that's how it was. If you want me to

8 clarify --

9 Q. Yes, please go ahead, say what you wanted to.

10 A. Well, to illustrate, before the war, the Mostar hospital and

11 health centre had 1.150 employees. In the period when I arrived there, I

12 found 385 people working in the hospital at five locations, and quite

13 simply it was almost impossible to organise the service. It was a very

14 strange time. People fled. Not just Muslims, Croats, Serbs, everybody

15 left. Everyone who had children fled. This is just to illustrate.

16 Mostar, for example, was so empty as a town that I saw only five or six

17 cars driving people to work. The only other vehicles were military

18 vehicles, soldiers.

19 Q. Yes, Mr. Kvesic, that's precisely what I was about to ask you.

20 So you were short of staff regardless of the ethnicity of the staff

21 members?

22 A. Yes, of course. When -- and we'll come to that later, but just

23 to illustrate, a hospital had two operating theatres but only one

24 anaesthesiologist at the time. It happened to be a Bosniak, a Muslim.

25 Q. All right. We'll come to that.

Page 37399

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Could we now look at the documents

2 1D 00544. That's the next document. It should be just after this one.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question for

4 you. The anaesthesiologist who was a Muslim, I presume he remained there

5 throughout, throughout the conflict, did he?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not just that, but the person is

7 still there and has been working there all this time. We did have

8 assistance from various hospitals, teams of surgeons came to help,

9 otherwise we would not have been able to function. We had several

10 thousand wounded in that hospital.

11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Have you found the document?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. This is a conclusion to proclaim the hospital in Mostar a war

15 hospital and it's dated the 21st of May, 1992. It signed by

16 Jadranko Topic, president of the HVO of Mostar municipality. So before

17 the Defence Department the hospital was declared a war hospital?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could we look at the next document, that's 2D 2018. It's the

20 next document in the binder. I'll be going through the documents now in

21 the order they are in the binder. So this is the appointment of the

22 commander of the war hospital of the 6th of June, Dr. Lugonja, and you

23 said that this appointment was made by Mate Boban, the president of the

24 HVO?

25 A. Yes, he was appointed by the municipal council of Mostar and the

Page 37400

1 appointment was confirmed by Mr. Boban after Mostar was liberated, I

2 think it was on the 5th of June that we entered Mostar.

3 Q. Well, Mr. Kvesic, let's now go back to the period we are

4 interested in, which is after you were appointed commander of the war

5 hospital. Could you please tell Their Honours whether you participated

6 in drawing up any documents together with other employees of the health

7 department? Was there such cooperation, and did you attempt to regulate

8 some relations which had still not been regulated in all that chaos?

9 A. Well, the situation in town and the situation in the hospital was

10 dramatic. It was chaotic. The system was falling apart. The civilian

11 institutions were no longer functioning. Neither was the social

12 security, so we simply tried to salvage what could be salvaged and

13 organise life in such a way that people who had acute urgent medical

14 needs could get assistance in a hospital.

15 Also the epidemiological situation was very bad and the

16 institutions were simply not functioning, so through the health

17 department, the hospital together with Dr. Bagaric, Dr. Curic of the

18 medical corps, we tried to do what we could. For example, we have an

19 instruction as to how certain areas should be dealt with to avoid them

20 becoming sources of infection and infectious diseases. You have to know

21 that at that time there were few professionals around. There weren't

22 many professionals in any segment, including ours. I do apologise for

23 speaking so fast; I get carried away.

24 Q. Yes, we are all trying to slow you down. Please slow down a

25 little, we have sufficient time for what we planned.

Page 37401

1 We are now discussing 2D 00923. Is that right, Mr. Kvesic? That

2 is the general instruction for health care of displaced persons and

3 refugees?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you say that this in fact is a document which you drew up

6 together with Dr. Curic, Dr. Bagaric?

7 A. Dr. Sarac as well.

8 Q. And Dr. Sarac. And that this --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Aren't you getting the number

10 wrong? It's not 2D 2019, rather?

11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] This is 2D 2019, thank you.

12 2D 2019.

13 Q. So this is the document you drew up in an attempt to regulate

14 this area?

15 A. Yes. And this letter of ours was sent around

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So it was sent to all those we

18 thought could be helped by it.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] If I may clarify, Your Honours,

20 2D 00923 is an exhibit which consisted of two documents which we

21 separated, and the document in the binder is 2D 2019. So that it can be

22 found under both numbers. But we have the correct document in e-court.

23 Q. Mr. Kvesic, in the regional hospital in Mostar, after your

24 arrival up to mid-1994, were there staff members of all ethnicities, all

25 nationalities? And please answer slowly so that your entire reply can be

Page 37402

1 recorded in the transcript.

2 A. I'm proud to say out loud that from the time I was appointed

3 commander of the war hospital to this day, I have never fired anyone from

4 work because of their ethnicity or nationality. All the people I found

5 working in the hospital in 1992 remained at their posts. Some of them

6 have, unfortunately, died in the meantime. All the others are still

7 working in the hospital.

8 When we were trying to recruit new staff members because we were

9 terribly short of staff, I never used the criterion of ethnicity or

10 nationality. If I needed a doctor, I would hire the doctor who applied

11 regardless of their ethnicity. And this also goes for nurses and other

12 staff members.

13 Q. Mr. Kvesic, in this wartime period between 1993 and 1995, did you

14 hire staff members of all ethnicities?

15 A. Absolutely, yes. Let me repeat, the criteria when selecting

16 staff members did not include ethnicity or nationality. We had

17 385 people to begin with, and there were about 800 at the end of the war.

18 Nobody was ever fired because of the nation they belonged to.

19 In 1993, I happen to recall just now, at the proposal of my

20 lawyer we were supposed to draw up lists because a lot of people had left

21 the hospital, they didn't turn up for work for a long time. Some of them

22 never turned up for work. So one day we were putting all these papers in

23 order and I signed at least 100 documents dismissing people, and I'm sure

24 they include Croats, Muslims, Serbs. We simply had to put the

25 documentation in order. Some of these people were later rehired when

Page 37403

1 they came back to Mostar, dozens of them.

2 Q. Let's clarify. At the end of 1993 you say that your lawyer in

3 your personnel department told you that some people were not turning up

4 for work. According to the legislation then in force in

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, if someone did not turn up for work for a certain

6 period of time without justification, they had to be fired; is that

7 correct?

8 A. As far as I understood the law, the lawyer told me you could stay

9 away for five days without justification, and here it was a matter of

10 months. We didn't do anything about it because we wished these people to

11 come back. We didn't have enough staff, but then in the end, we did have

12 to put this in order, according to the law. After my arrival, for

13 several months no one received a salary, so that when money started

14 coming in, we had to put the lists in order so that we could pay those

15 who were actually coming to work. That was the reason why we finally had

16 to set these papers in order and these documents.

17 Q. Mr. Kvesic, in the hospital where you were working, were all

18 citizens of Mostar treated, were some even brought from elsewhere

19 regardless of their ethnicity or nationality?

20 A. Absolutely, yes. There were no distinctions made. Everybody who

21 needed medical treatment was treated. The hospital doors were open to

22 all. Everyone who needed assistance was treated in the same way. All I

23 can say is that during the worst wartime events, and I think that

24 Their Honours have the protocols of my hospital from that period, apart

25 from the first and last name and the date of birth, we didn't enter any

Page 37404

1 other information, either the ethnicity of the patients or their

2 membership in a particular army or unit. We assisted everyone to the

3 best of our poor and meager abilities at the time.

4 Q. Could you now look at a document, that's 2D 00968.

5 A. Yes?

6 Q. This is a list of doctors employed in wartime. Can you comment

7 on this?

8 A. There were very few of us. We were desperate to recruit more

9 doctors. The moment a doctor turned up who had the appropriate

10 educational background, we immediately employed them. There was no

11 competition. This is a list I can comment on briefly as regards the time

12 when these people were recruited when they were employed and their

13 ethnicity, and this -- for example, Ljubic Bozo was a Croat from

14 Sarajevo. Pero Celina was Croat from Sarajevo. Benjamin Alfred Markin

15 was an African from Ghana, a friend of mine who had been working in

16 Jajici.

17 Q. Could you please slow down.

18 A. Dr. Ivan Busic came from Osijek, a Croat. Dr. Miro Klaric came

19 from Teslic, a Croat. His wife is not mentioned here, Branka Klaric, a

20 Serb. Then there is a Muhamed Obradovic, a radiologist; he was a Muslim.

21 Dr. Dubravka Smajic, I think she's a Croat; I'm not sure. Gordan Galic

22 came from Tuzla; he was a Croat. Nevenka Planinic came from Tovarnik;

23 she was a Croat. Sumanovic Darinka came from Djakovo, a Croat.

24 Dragan Divkovic from Tuzla, I don't know what his ethnicity is.

25 Q. Mr. Kvesic, by your leave, this will take a long time; I think

Page 37405

1 this list speaks for itself. It shows when somebody came to be employed,

2 and you've just said they belong to all ethnicities.

3 What does reemployed mean?

4 A. Well, this man came -- he was a psychiatrist. He came to Mostar

5 and then, for family reasons, he changed his mind and went to Rijeka. He

6 couldn't find a job in Rijeka so he came back. So we employed him twice

7 in the same year. Dr. Mira Besovic left the hospital just before the war

8 but then she came back in 1994, I think it was, and then she was taken

9 back. She is a Muslim. She is an eye doctor and she's still working in

10 the hospital today. So these are people who had left and came back, and

11 we employed them again because we needed them all.

12 Q. Now, let's look at the next document. It is 2D 00967. 2D 00967,

13 yes. This is also a document which gives the ethnic structure of

14 employees for the 31st of July, 1994. Just your brief comments, please.

15 A. Well, it springs to view that there are more Croats than there

16 are Bosniaks and Serbs, and I'm going to explain that very simply. Prior

17 to the war, the situation was the reverse. However, with the advent of

18 the war, we found people -- that people had left. Some to Belgrade, some

19 to Germany, some to the hospital on the left bank of the Neretva, and

20 quite simply, those were the people that we could find, the labour force

21 that was available. I'd like to remind that you in the former Yugoslavia

22 before the war there was what was called an ethnic key, but during the

23 war, the key was, are they available or not. Now, of course, we try and

24 select the best people for the job, but then we couldn't be choosers.

25 Q. Just to clarify the situation, to avoid misunderstanding, you

Page 37406

1 said that there was what was called an ethnic key before the war, that is

2 to say, in Bosnia-Herzegovina. A proportionate representation had to be

3 respected, and during the war you had people who knew how to work, to do

4 their job, and now you look at -- are able to look at quality more rather

5 than what is available, generally speaking; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, we have a brief table and it says number of personnel in the

8 clinical hospital, and then we have the figure of 868 Croats and 152 M,

9 that is for Muslims; right? 58 Serbs and 11 others. So that was the

10 situation on the 31st of July, 1994; is that right?

11 A. Yes. Just let me check if it's 1994. Yes, it is, in the upper

12 corner.

13 Q. Let's look at the next document which is 2D 00966. And this is a

14 piece of information from the protocol related to the number of patients

15 treated. And here we have two groups. We see how many Bosniaks were

16 treated, in fact. And we have two categories. We have outpatients and

17 hospitalised patients. And then we have figures according to the

18 different departments and wards, surgery, oncology, and so on.

19 Mr. Kvesic, could you tell the Trial Chamber in what way did they

20 come by these figures in and who established who the Bosniaks were

21 treated in this period between 1993 and 1994? Who is responsible for

22 drawing up this table and the figures there?

23 A. This is a list of persons who we, at your request, drew up to

24 show that all the others were treated as well. This is an example for

25 the Bosniaks. This is the protocol compiled through looking at the whole

Page 37407

1 log-book of the hospital, protocol of the hospital, and then judging by

2 the names and surnames, we were able to establish who were Bosniaks.

3 That's the only criteria we had. There were no other indications, so

4 we -- the indication we took was the name. And this showed that the

5 hospital was open to all these Bosniaks.

6 So I consider this to be just a technical piece of information

7 and not anything of any vital importance because the hospital from the

8 very difficult days when it was difficult to reach the hospital, it was

9 open today and it was open then -- it's open today, and it's always been

10 open to everyone for treatment.

11 Q. Thank you. I'm now going to ask you to take a look at

12 document 2D 00603 and then we'll look at 602 afterwards. I think that

13 those are documents in two separate binders.

14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] May we have the usher's assistance

15 in helping the witness, please, find those documents.

16 Q. I'd just like us to explain to the Trial Chamber what it is we

17 have before us. So let's look at 2D 00602 in one binder, and then the

18 other document in the other binder. And they are both equally important

19 documents now.

20 It says that this is a protocol of patients from the

21 neuropsychiatric ward. Now, Mr. Kvesic, when we received information

22 from you that in the neurology and psychiatry ward patients were treated

23 as outpatients, and you say that in 2D 00966, that the figure was

24 814 patients who were Bosniaks. Now, can you confirm for the

25 Trial Chamber that this, for example, is the protocol of one of those

Page 37408

1 outpatient departments under the neurology and psychiatry department.

2 And as we can see from document 2D 603 on page 1, dating from the

3 12th of March, 1993, that's the page, the entries go from the

4 12th of March, 1993, down to -- and I have to look at the next document,

5 it is 2D 602, and look at the document at the end, and the last entry

6 there is the 14th of March, 1995. Is that right? There was one protocol

7 that was kept and then you continued to make entries until 1995, that's

8 the penultimate page of document 2D 00602.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, tell me, please, we weren't able to get all the protocols

11 but do the protocols exist to this day in the hospital, and can they all

12 be verified and checked according to the different departments?

13 A. Yes, that is absolutely correct. I'm quite sure that the list

14 that we have in document 966 was taken from this protocol, 2D 00602, and

15 relates to neurology and psychiatry.

16 And I'd like to remind you that hospital protocols, complete

17 hospital protocols, stamped and signed by me have been in this Tribunal

18 for many years. I think it was in 1995, but don't hold me to that,

19 during the first trial held, that is to say Mr. Naletilic, I think, they

20 had entire protocol of the war hospital, and it's been at the Tribunal

21 for all those years. And I still have the original version and is

22 available for any verification that needs to be made, and I can confirm

23 that the tables that we have here correspond to the original protocol and

24 come from the original protocol.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 37409

1 A. You are welcome.

2 Q. Now, let's look at the next document which is 2D 00965.

3 Mr. Kvesic, here we have the ethnic structure of the staff on --

4 as of the 31st of July, 1993, in the clinical hospital Mostar. Now,

5 previously, we had the ethnic structure as well, but that was for 1994.

6 I'll give you the exact date. From the 31st of July, 1994. Or rather,

7 this is the 31st of July, 1993. From this table it follows that in all

8 the clinics there were 496 employees -- 496 Croats, 171 Muslims, that is

9 to say Bosniaks, 66 Serbs, and 14 others.

10 Now, Mr. Kvesic, I just want you to confirm that all these facts

11 and figures are true and correct and that you compiled them -- that you

12 looked through them and verified them together with your staff; is that

13 right?

14 A. Yes, I can confirm that absolutely. They are absolutely correct.

15 And when I commented on the previous table, I'd like to say that the

16 ratio looking at these figures, the 31st of July, 1993, we have

17 747 employees; and on the 31st of July, 1994, we have 1.089. I'm not

18 sure I analysed that, but anyway, we tried to replenish the staff so that

19 the hospital could function normally. But we did not have any ethnic

20 quota system in place, and I'd like to repeat that.

21 Q. Very well. Now may we look at 2D 00964 next, please.

22 This is a list of staff -- hospital staff who were killed during

23 the war. The fatalities.

24 A. Yes, unfortunately, those are the fatalities.

25 Q. And on that list we also have people who were Croats and Bosniaks

Page 37410

1 and possibly Serbs and other ethnic groups?

2 A. Well, let's see. I don't think there's a single Serb there. Oh

3 yes, there is, Predrag Puzlic, one. Then there are a few Bosniak names

4 and a few Croatian names, unfortunately, regrettably.

5 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Kvesic, from what you have told us so far we

6 heard that all patients coming to the hospital were treated regardless of

7 their ethnicity. Now, were patients treated with -- did people bring

8 patients from outside or members of the BH army who came to your hospital

9 regardless of how they came to be in the hospital?

10 A. I'm going to repeat once again and I'll always repeat it, that

11 without exception everybody brought to the hospital was treated at the

12 hospital.

13 Q. All right. Now, look at 2D 00971, please. Have you found it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The document is dated the 19th of February, 1994, signed by

16 Mr. Bagaric and it says:

17 "We attached -- we sent you a letter we received from the

18 International Red Cross. We ask you to act accordingly to the text. It

19 has been agreed with the head of the Mostar hospital, Dr. Kvesic, that

20 the mentioned patients can be brought on Monday, February the 21st, 1994,

21 to the internal medicine ward." Your name is mentioned and we have the

22 letter attached. Several names are mentioned there. May we have your

23 comments? We have to look at the ethnicity of these patients, and do you

24 remember whether they were admitted to hospital and given satisfactory

25 medical care and attention?

Page 37411

1 A. Well, two things here. At that time because of the situation on

2 the ground, in the field, and because of the inaccessibility of the

3 terrain, because of the war, the International Red Cross drove ambulances

4 and other ambulances and APCs, they would bring people in from the areas

5 under threat. And that was the only reason why we reacted in this way.

6 And I can only assume or, rather, I'm quite certain that this is correct,

7 and you can check this out on the basis of the protocols, but I didn't

8 verify that because I'm absolutely sure that this is correct.

9 Now, your question as to their ethnicities, judging by the first

10 and last names, Hasan Vasic is absolutely a -- is a Bosniak. I'm certain

11 of that, and I'm sure that they were treated in our hospital.

12 Q. All right. We don't have the exact names in the transcript but

13 we'll put that right subsequently. Look at 2D 00566 now, please. That's

14 next document.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. 2D 00566 is the document number. That's right. Now, the date

17 here is the 10th of September, 1993, and this is a list of wounded

18 members of the BH Army sent from the HVO war hospital at Mostar to the

19 hospital in Split.

20 Mr. Kvesic, we have some names here of the members of the BH

21 Army. The document is signed by Mr. Sandrk, and from the document we can

22 clearly see that they were members of the BH army and that they were

23 admitted to your hospital and that from there they were sent to Split.

24 Can you tell the Trial Chamber or, rather, explain to the Trial Chamber

25 why they were in your hospital and do you know that this happened and why

Page 37412

1 they were then sent to the hospital in Split. But just slowly, please.

2 Take it slowly, go ahead, yes.

3 A. This list is correct, the people were indeed admitted to our

4 hospital for treatment and because of their general health situation,

5 that is to say, the severity of their wounds and injuries, and because we

6 weren't able to provide medical care for a large number of people, we had

7 very few staff and the surgical theatre was under threat, the hospital

8 was shelled, windows were shattered, for example -- or, rather, the

9 windows looked out on to the positions of where the attacks were coming

10 from. So we would do what we could for these people first. Apply first

11 aid, and then many of them, these and many others were transported to

12 Split for further treatment.

13 And I'd like to underline that Dr. Ivo Sandrk organised transport

14 for them and they just happened to be members of the BH Army. But in my

15 protocols, the ones you have here, there were many, many other people,

16 Bosniaks and others who were transported to Split. And let me repeat, we

17 never had a problem there. The Split hospital was also open to all

18 patients at all times. It might be interesting to note at this point

19 that --

20 Q. Just a moment, everything you are saying is very valuable and

21 interesting, but could you just slow down a bit.

22 A. The Split hospital, as I said, admitted all patients and took

23 over their medical treatment, and we had a very good experience with

24 them, and as human beings and as doctors, Doctors Without Borders, they

25 were -- well, if I can put it this way, they were our sort of rear

Page 37413

1 hospital. We never had any problems, except for individual instances. I

2 have a nurse working in my hospital, she was a Muslim, and she's still

3 working in the hospital, she was pregnant and was supposed to give birth

4 in Mostar, but as to a difficult birth she had to be sent to Split. And

5 since she didn't have a passport, I provided her with my own car and

6 driver and he quite simply smuggled her across the border to have her

7 give birth in Split. And her daughter is alive and well today and goes

8 to school. So the people could only encounter problems if they didn't

9 have a passport. They never had any other problems.

10 So this list, as you can see here, Mirsad, Ibro, Azer, Camir,

11 Senad, they are all Bosniak names. And next to some of those names you

12 have ABiH; next to others there's nothing. But as far as we are

13 concerned, in our hospital, this did not present a problem.

14 Q. We have three more documents that I want us to look at and I

15 think that I still have 10 to 15 minutes left. Look at 2D 00328 now,

16 please. I'll ask you some questions first. Just a brief question,

17 general question. From your hospital from the requirements of the

18 hospital in eastern Mostar during 1993 and 1994, did you send medicines,

19 blood, and some other medical equipment and drugs, and did that go via

20 the UNHCR and what was -- what kind of cooperation did you have with the

21 doctors on the east bank?

22 A. Well, the paper that I have in my hands now refers to

23 transporting blood for blood transfusions going to the left bank, and

24 UNPROFOR transported this; and throughout those unfortunate years, we

25 always communicated with the other hospital and vice-versa. So in our

Page 37414

1 hospital we had a large depot of medicines and drugs and different

2 donations from different institutions and states all over the world came

3 into that depot. It was an open warehouse and the medicines were divided

4 up and anybody who asked for them were sent them and we have the records

5 of that. And just for illustration purposes, during the war, we were

6 left without a sterilizer, which is a key instrument if you are going to

7 do proper surgery. And then for about a fortnight we sent our surgery

8 sets to the hospital on the left bank to be sterilized. So I think --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, I think you only

10 have six minutes left.

11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I would rather accept

12 Judge Trechsel's gesticulations when he said eight minutes, but I'll

13 abide by what I've been told.

14 Q. I do apologise, Dr. Kvesic. You were talking about the

15 sterilizer, so please continue.

16 A. Let me repeat, we sterilized our surgical sets in that hospital.

17 So let me repeat, the hospitals always cooperated. Always. Just another

18 small illustration, throughout the war, throughout the unfortunate time

19 of hostilities our hospital had the only dialysis in the region and all

20 patients who needed dialysis were brought there. Those who were from the

21 left bank and could not be brought over slept in our hospital the whole

22 time, as you can see in our hospital -- in our hospital records. They

23 stayed there.

24 Q. Mr. Kvesic, please look at the last document in your binder. We

25 have to skip one because of lack of time. That's 2D 0003.

Page 37415

1 THE INTERPRETER: 2D 00303, interpreter's correction.

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Could you please explain what the Bura action mentioned in this

4 report -- of the medical report of the 8th of November, 1993, refers to.

5 Let me mention that your name is also mentioned in this report. You

6 brought blood from Split and you gave assistance near the old bridge in

7 Mostar, but can you please say very briefly what the action Bura was in

8 November of 1992 and who was in conflict with whom?

9 A. It was Croats and Bosniaks together against the Serbs. The

10 result was a disaster for all sides. There were huge numbers of

11 casualties. I was personally introduced into this action in a way that I

12 will remember all my life.

13 At about 9 p.m., Dr. Goran Vojic rang up, he found me at a family

14 celebration and he said in the morning there will be an action beginning,

15 it's called Bura. He mentioned thousands of soldiers and I had only

16 8 doses of blood for transfusion. That was about 9 p.m. My car had been

17 smashed and there were very few cars in the hospital so I borrowed a car

18 from the Siroki Brijeg police station. I rang up the chief nurse,

19 Mrs. Marija Zupanovic, in the Split hospital. I asked her for urgent

20 assistance. I sat in the car, drove to Split and took from Dr. Erceg

21 [phoen] 200 doses of blood and brought them back to Mostar. It was still

22 nighttime. I drove without lights. It was pitch black. The silence was

23 eerie. I left the blood there and I went back to Zovnica. I didn't have

24 the nerve to did to my office in Bijeli Brijeg. I was soaked through

25 with sweat, I was terrified. I smoked a cigarette there and I went back

Page 37416

1 to the hospital to my job. I will never forget Bura.

2 Q. Mr. Kvesic, you said that this was an action conducted by the

3 army of BH, together with the HVO, against the Serbs?

4 A. Absolutely, yes.

5 Q. Before this action, do you remember that the territory of Mostar

6 and to the south of Mostar was shelled frequently by the Serbian army?

7 A. Well, it's hardly worth saying that it's so obvious. Just to

8 illustrate with an example from my hospital, you can still see the

9 facades of the old hospital, and even the new one, there were hundreds of

10 hits. You can see thousands of holes from projectiles on the facade of

11 the hospital. We once had a bomb landing in our operating theatre during

12 surgery; fortunately, it did not explode.

13 Q. Mr. Kvesic, to round off, we saw pictures in this courtroom

14 showing the conditions prevailing in the hospital in East Mostar. Can

15 you tell Their Honours briefly what conditions you worked in? Did your

16 hospital regularly receive water, electricity? Did you have normal

17 operating theatres? What were the conditions of work in your hospital,

18 especially in 1993 and early 1994?

19 A. We had two operating theatres in two locations in the old surgery

20 building, which we have moved out of recently. We worked in the corridor

21 because that was in the cellar, it was an improvised operating theatre.

22 There were lamps which we brought from outside. They weren't hanging

23 from the ceiling, they were just lamps we used. You saw the list of dead

24 in my hospital, 35 people were wounded. I don't think I need to talk a

25 lot about the conditions we worked in.

Page 37417

1 I think in Bijeli Brijeg the operating theatre was a bit better

2 because it was a new building, the part that was finished. But

3 electricity was frequently -- and especially when the situation was the

4 worst, in spite of the fact that we had batteries and cisterns and --

5 well, when there were shortages, we had a firefighter staying parked all

6 the time in front of our hospital in case we ran out of water. We lived

7 in horrible conditions in Mostar. We weren't actually hungry but

8 everything else, there was a shortage of.

9 Q. And finally, my last question and I need the usher for a moment.

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to tell you

11 that last night we received a document which we feel to be quite

12 important. I would like to ask for it to be put on the ELMO. We have

13 prepared a sufficient number of copies for Your Honours. This is a

14 newspaper which we came into our hands last night and we think it's

15 important to mention this. It concerns a huge reward which this

16 gentleman before us received, the witness received it. This is a

17 newspaper dated from February 1992.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel repeat the date, please.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] We received this newspaper last

20 night. I will ask -- could I just put this on the transcript and then my

21 learned friend can object.

22 MR. LONGONE: Yes, Your Honour. We object because we just

23 learned that they received this newspaper yesterday. Today, they still

24 were modifying the list of exhibits and we didn't receive any information

25 about this one.

Page 37418

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me explain. This

3 is not a new document. We are simply putting this to the witness so that

4 he can confirm that it concerns him and then we shall tender it later on

5 and --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ask your question.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Kvesic, it is a great honour to me personally to put this

9 question to you. On the 20th of February, 2009, a magazine organised an

10 event under the auspices of the federal television station of the

11 Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and you were declared the person of the

12 year. Can you please confirm this and explain to Their Honours whether

13 the candidates for this prestigious title were members of all ethnicities

14 from the entire of Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. Well, I'm quite surprised by this now, yes, this is correct. The

16 reason I was nominated was a project completed by my team and myself

17 after 18 years of work, and that's the hospital in Bijeli Brijeg of

18 30.000 square meters with new equipment. This hospital was opened and

19 I'm very proud of that. That evening in Mostar some 20 people were

20 awarded various plaques and awards and this was the last award. The

21 readers of the magazine voted. One prize went to the prime minister and

22 so on.

23 Q. So your work is recognised even today throughout

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina and especially on the territory of the Federation?

25 A. Well, one might say that.

Page 37419

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you for

2 your responses. Your Honours, I have completed my examination-in-chief

3 now.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very quickly, I would like to

5 ask you a question. I was looking at the document P2253, which is the

6 list of the casualties that was established on the 10th of May, 1993, by

7 the Health Sector for the Defence Department, and what I see is at the

8 end the figures 162 injured soldiers, 21 Muslim -- 25 Muslims, 25 Croats

9 killed and 2 Muslim soldiers killed and 12 civilians killed including

10 10 Muslims, and 11 unidentified bodies at the morgue of Bijeli Brijeg.

11 It would have been interesting to have the same report for the end of

12 1993, since we are talking about the month of May.

13 This is my question: The Muslims that were injured and taken

14 care of in your hospital, take, for instance, the soldiers mentioned

15 here, when they were brought to your hospital were they guarded by other

16 soldiers, or were they considered as ordinary patients?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ordinary patients. I can tell you

18 many examples where a patient was a member of the army and a member of

19 the HVO would be on the next bed in the same room. There was no special

20 security. We didn't even have a porter. Nobody wanted to do that.

21 Anyone could enter the hospital. It would have been a good thing if we

22 could have kept some things under control, but the hospital was actually

23 open to everyone.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another additional question.

25 Everybody knows how a hospital works, either because you have been a

Page 37420

1 visitor there or you've been a patient there. These Muslims who were

2 taken care of in the regional hospital, did they get visitors? Did their

3 families come to visit them.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no prohibitions. I

5 believe that those who did not receive visits, did not receive them

6 because their families were far away or it was too dangerous for their

7 families to come. But we did not have any special regimen for one group

8 as opposed to another. We doctors, not just Croats, but all of us

9 doctors, we tried to salvage whatever could be salvaged.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last technical question. I

11 try to keep to the essentials and be very quick. I don't need several

12 hours to understand. I was very surprised by the document of Mr. Topic's

13 document which refers to your clinic as being a wartime hospital. Why

14 does Mr. Topic become involved? Wasn't it up to the Department of

15 Defence to say whether it was a wartime hospital? What has the president

16 of a municipality have to play as a role?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the beginning of the war,

18 Your Honour, the situation was such that we did not have any organised

19 defence. The municipal councils carried out all activities, especially

20 in the town of Mostar which was the largest town. It was only later that

21 the Defence Department and the Health Sector were set up, so I can

22 speculate now that had there been a Defence Department at the time, it --

23 then Dr. Rubinja [phoen] would not have been the commander of the

24 hospital. But the municipal council was the only body functioning at the

25 time, making decisions according to their assessments and conscience; it

Page 37421

1 was simply what had to be done.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The other counsels

3 for the Defence and cross-examination. D 3, any questions? Mr. Kovacic.

4 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour. No, we do not.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Mrs. Alaburic.

6 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] No questions either. We would

7 like to thank Dr. Kvesic for coming here to testify.

8 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 The Defence of Valentin Coric has no questions.

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

11 Thank you.

12 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of Mr. Prlic has no

13 questions for this witness.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, the best thing now

15 is to have a 20-minute break and then the OTP will have its

16 cross-examination.

17 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 3.53 p.m.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to facilitate

21 planning, we looked at the advice you gave us yesterday, the pros and

22 cons and some technical aspects, and we note that we can take this

23 witness to 92 bis, take a 92 bis statement because we are pressed for

24 time today. So to avoid any nervousness and bother, I'll do it under

25 92 bis.

Page 37422

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. OTP you have the

2 floor.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Longone:

4 Q. [Microphone not activated]

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 MR. LONGONE: My apologies.

7 Q. Good afternoon, Doctor.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. My name is Miguel Longone and I will cross-examine you on behalf

10 of the Prosecution today. I would like to start showing you a video that

11 was used with another witness here in the courtroom, Mr. Thornberry, and

12 it is Prosecution Exhibit P04296.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. LONGONE:

15 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, this is -- what hospital was this one?

16 A. This was the hospital at Bijeli Brijeg where I was commander from

17 1992, September, until 1994. So Bijeli Brijeg is one of the localities

18 where the hospital was.

19 Q. And, sir, were you present -- this specific video was from

20 19 August 1993 where Mr. Thornberry and this pilot were delivering

21 medical supplies to that hospital. Were you present at that time, sir?

22 A. I can't see myself on that footage. There was Dr. Bagaric and

23 Dr. Pandza, my assistant; Dr. Simunovic, one of the neurosurgeons at the

24 war hospital, were featured. I don't know where I was at that time. So

25 I'm not quite sure whether I was actually there that day or not.

Page 37423

1 Very often we received aid from different organisations, from

2 UNPROFOR, the International Red Cross, the Merhamet charity, so I have to

3 mention, because of the situation, that we functioned on the basis of

4 donations, assistance given to us in medical equipment, sanitary

5 material, food, medicines, and so on. So I can just use this brief

6 opportunity to thank everybody who -- thank the hospital and -- thank

7 everyone who made it possible for the hospital to function.

8 Q. And I take note that you mentioned the Merhamet as assisting also

9 there, the HVO hospital at that time, and you mentioned also in the

10 statement that you gave to counsel for Mr. Praljak. And, sir, at that

11 time, this is August 1993, did you ever go to the hospital in

12 East Mostar, because you said that you were cooperating with the people

13 in East Mostar. Did you ever go to assist them as a surgeon, to that

14 hospital?

15 A. At that time I wasn't a surgeon. I was an organiser and -- with

16 management to ensure that the hospital functioned logistically. So I

17 wasn't a doctor working with patients, but yes, I was at the hospital on

18 several occasions. Very often, actually, because I was and have remained

19 friends with all those people, with Minister Omerovic, Bajro Saric

20 [phoen] who was the director, and many others.

21 Q. You said you went to the hospital in West Mostar, did you go at

22 any time in 1993 in East Mostar?

23 A. I think it was 1994. It was very difficult to do that in 1993

24 without the help of UNPROFOR's APCs. So during 1993 we used UNPROFOR's

25 vehicles and used them to help us sterilize material, but it wasn't

Page 37424

1 possibly physically, not because of poor human relations but because it

2 was because it was terribly dangerous.

3 Q. It was terribly dangerous. Sir, just to go back to the list that

4 you have prepared of names --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question for you

6 following the video, question for you at OTP. We just saw a video, I

7 don't know exactly what month it relates to, and we see the hospital

8 receiving supplies. I was very much impressed that the fact that in the

9 APC, we see equipment, medical equipment that is going to be brought to

10 the hospital. And when I looked at the video, I wondered, well, is the

11 UNPROFOR doing the same thing with East Mostar hospital because although

12 the situation in the west was very difficult with this APC, they could

13 have brought supplies to the East Mostar hospital that was facing

14 enormous difficulties. So as far as you know, your colleagues in

15 East Mostar, did they get supplies from UNPROFOR?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We all received supplies from

17 UNPROFOR. We used UNPROFOR vehicles to transport supplies from us to

18 them and from them to us. Now, at that time there were very few

19 connections that functioned properly, but the Red Cross and UNPROFOR were

20 used often for the transport of the wounded and material generally.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Doctor, you are not really

22 answering my question which was a very precise one. I wanted to know

23 whether the hospital in East Mostar had received medical supplies and

24 blood, surgical equipment, gas supplies, oxygen supplies, that's what I

25 want to know. Do you know or don't you?

Page 37425

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know of a number of times when

2 from my hospital we sent supplies, medical supplies and blood to the

3 other hospital, and various other things. Not once, several times, so

4 I'm quite sure that that did happen.

5 I know about the things that went from my hospital and I can

6 substantiate that.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, that's an important

8 thing. During what period did you send medical equipment to the

9 East Mostar hospital, in particular blood supplies? Was it in 1993,

10 1994? What was the exact date?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw the documents a moment ago

12 and I think that we can find some of those dates, but I'm quite sure that

13 there were dozens of shipments like that. I'm sure we can find a

14 document to bear that out and tell you the exact date, but please believe

15 me when I state this, and you can ask the director of the hospital now,

16 that that wasn't a problem at all. So all the supplies that both

17 (redacted)

18 far as you know -- well, I think he has been a witness here already. He

19 kept records so he has whole lists of medical supplies and blood and

20 solutions that went to the other hospital.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I understand properly,

22 what you sent to the hospital were put into the APCs that belonged to

23 UNPROFOR and they were the ones to take it to the spot?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, yes. And we used

25 that system very often.

Page 37426

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Due to protective measures, could we

2 (redacted)

3 but it might appear later on. And to help the Trial Chamber, the witness

4 was referring to document 2D --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, there should be

6 an order for page 29, line 23, in that case.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] And let me be of assistance,

8 Your Honour. What the witness was just telling you about was to be found

9 at document 2D 00328. And the date of the document was the

10 25th of September, 1993. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] OTP.

12 MR. LONGONE: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

13 Q. Sir, we discussed this document with the Defence already, it's

14 2D 00966, and this is a list of patients, Bosnian Muslim patients that

15 you treated. It's a short question about it, but you have prepared --

16 and counsel has showed it to you and you confirmed that you made the

17 list. And my question is the following, because this subject has arised

18 in the past in this courtroom: Did you feel that you could make a

19 reliable list of Bosnian Muslims being treated, Bosnian Muslims patients

20 treated there only by -- based on their name? You felt confident in

21 drawing that list and making sure that they were Bosnian Muslims?

22 A. I stated that very clearly and I am going to repeat it now. This

23 is a list of those people whom we recognised as being Muslims on the

24 basis of their first and last names which in practice means that there

25 might have been more people because lots of Muslims have names which you

Page 37427

1 can't distinguish from Croatian names. For example, Zlatko Devic and so

2 on, but for those that we were sure about, we listed and that's why the

3 numbers were different. But in our protocols, the persons that we

4 registered as such, I can tell you that we are absolutely certain about.

5 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

6 Now --

7 A. You are welcome.

8 Q. If we see another exhibit that was discussed with the Defence

9 before, 2D 00965, we can see that -- I don't know if you have it with

10 you. 2D 00965. Right. So we can see, sir, for example, surgery, there

11 are 20 surgeons that are Muslims, according to this list. This is from

12 July 31st, 1993, by the way. And there are 20 Muslims that are --

13 Bosnian Muslims that are surgeons and they are under anaesthesiology that

14 you said that it was a very important, a very, very important profession

15 at the time because you were -- you didn't have many anaesthesiologists.

16 You had eight Muslims. Did you see that, sir?

17 A. Yes. I have to make a correction. These are not doctors; they

18 are employees, the staff in the surgery department. So of these

19 52 Croats, 10 were doctors, for instances and the rest were nurses. Of

20 the 20 Bosniaks, that is to say, the number of employees, I don't know

21 what their profession was, but let me repeat at the -- in the Mostar

22 hospital in the beginning of the conflict, we were left with just one

23 anaesthesiologist and that was Dr. Selma Jakupovic, a lady doctor. And

24 the others under anaesthesia were technicians, we had enough of those.

25 And unfortunately, under the conditions that prevailed, these experienced

Page 37428

1 technicians had to work as full-fledged anaesthesiologists, which

2 wouldn't happen now but we didn't have a choice at the time.

3 Q. Thank you very much, sir. You mentioned that that one was Muslim

4 actually, Bosnian Muslim, the anaesthesiologist, the only one helping

5 you, that was what you said in the beginning of your testimony today?

6 A. Yes, yes, yes.

7 Q. And, sir, if we see here, July 31st, 1993, the majority --

8 according to this list that you signed, the majority of employees in your

9 hospital were Croats; isn't it?

10 A. Yes. And the ratio is quite clear.

11 Q. And in the other list from 1994 that we saw also, that the

12 Defence here counsel showed to you, again the majority of employees at

13 the hospital in Mostar, West Mostar, were Croats; isn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, there is something that I don't understand from your -- or I

16 may understand from your testimony and this is you have given a testimony

17 to counsel that -- today we were just told before starting the

18 cross-examination they are going to tender you as a 92 ter, but in that

19 testimony, sir, you said that at all -- not at all times but when you

20 arrived to the hospital under from 385 employees, certainly the Croats

21 were the minority. Do you remember that, sir?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. And we have seen from the Exhibit P 03355 from the Prosecution

24 under the minister of defence, the Health Sector remarks about the fact

25 that many Bosnian Muslims employees, expert medical staff working in the

Page 37429

1 Croatian hospital in West Mostar have fled, and this was a report from

2 the first half of 1993; right? So would you agree with me, sir, that in

3 the beginning of 1992 when there was in Mostar no conflict between the

4 Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats, you had a majority of Bosnian

5 Muslim personnel working at the hospital that fled as a consequence of

6 the war; isn't it?

7 A. I said, and the information is correct, that when I arrived at

8 the hospital I found 385 people there. Now, about 70 per cent roughly,

9 and I have the list so you can calculate that, were not Croats. Now,

10 what actually happened. Your observation that they went because of the

11 war, that they left because of the war I agree in part. And here is why.

12 I keep saying that prior to the war the hospital had 1.500 employees;

13 that's a vast number of staff. When I came, there were 385 which means

14 30 per cent.

15 Now, we tried to have people return, those who dared return,

16 leave their children and come back to Mostar, but at the time people fled

17 to all parts, Zagreb, Split, Sarajevo, to Bosniaks [as interpreted], the

18 Serbs to Serbia, to Republika Srpska, wherever they could. It was a

19 terrible time.

20 Now, when the war broke out we managed to have some people come

21 back and many people working today in the Safet Mujic Hospital worked in

22 our hospital until that day; so after that day, lots of people left out

23 of fear. It was terrible. On the other hand, you mustn't forget that

24 because there was fighting going on the streets of the town, they had to

25 organise the medical corps and for their own soldiers. And on one day I

Page 37430

1 replaced Dr. Dzudza, who was the psychiatrist, and when the war began I

2 wasn't a friend with Dzemal Dzudza, I was with Ramo, but he went over

3 there. That's how it was.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that I have to interrupt

5 you, but because of time constraints. I will have to do it. And I will

6 try to ask you please concentrate on the question. The question was

7 that: In the beginning of 1993, you clearly stated in your statement

8 given to the counsel of Mr. Praljak, that the minority were Croats not

9 Muslims and it's clear from the Health Sector report that the counsel --

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sure you understand

11 why I'm on my feet to object. The statement given to Mr. Praljak has not

12 been tendered nor can it be the topic of the cross-examination so I

13 object.

14 MR. LONGONE: Well, Your Honours --

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] All that counsel can cross-examine

16 on is the examination-in-chief material.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. Witness,

18 Mr. Kovacic sit down, please. When you answered the Prosecutor -- I'm

19 trying to follow this closely so there's no mistake with my

20 understanding. What I understood was this, and if I'm mistaken, please

21 tell me immediately so that we can gain some time. As far as I

22 understood, this hospital, before you arrived, before you arrived had

23 1.500 employees, doctors, nurses, various personnel.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

25 ... the war. On the eve of the war.

Page 37431

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

2 continues] ... miscellaneous. Now, when you arrived, there were only

3 385. In other words, 1.200 had left. Now, of these 385 that were there

4 when you arrived, as far as I can tell, there are 70 per cent Muslims or

5 non-Croats, Muslims, Serbs, whatever. 70 per cent. And I also thought

6 that what you said was that because of the events other people left.

7 We have a document that shows that at a certain time the figures

8 had gone up and at that time your hospital, and I'm talking about

9 document 2966, whether 496 people and out of these 496 they are

10 171 Muslims. So between the time you arrived and the time you drafted

11 this document, 100 people more were added. But there we see that the

12 Muslims only account for 25 per cent. 25 per cent or, rather, less,

13 23 per cent as compared to the 496 figure. So between the time you

14 arrived and the time you drafted this document, lots of Muslims left. Is

15 that what happened?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am telling you how things stood,

17 what things happened. When we have 496 people, several things took

18 place. There was a new exodus of people when the new conflict began and

19 the Bosniaks went to a new hospital which is still functioning today. So

20 they felt the need to have their own hospital, and in the meantime, we

21 had to look for new people. And we employed nurses, medical technicians

22 and so on and we tried to get the system up and running without looking

23 at whether more Bosniaks left or Croats left. What was essential for us

24 was to fill the work post, that's what I'd like to insist upon. So that

25 was the principle that we applied. Not by doing the maths and adding up

Page 37432

1 figures. We can do that, ultimately, to see how much of what ethnicity

2 they were, but I have documents to bear out what I'm saying.

3 I never dismissed anyone on ethnic grounds, it was -- people fled

4 out of fear. They needed to be elsewhere, so I understand some of the

5 Bosniaks that left. The doctor that left. And I would have gone had I

6 been a Bosniak. I would have transferred to the other hospital too. So

7 those are things that happened, unfortunately.

8 It wasn't an easy decision. If you had to leave your apartment

9 and take your children away, the situation was terrible, but let me

10 repeat I do not accept that the cause of their departure was a strategy

11 to just retain Croats and dismiss the Bosniaks. That is not what

12 happened. That was not the principle which we applied. So when you look

13 at figures, you must look at the correlations. I don't accept that

14 things happened in the way you've just said.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] OTP, please.

16 MR. LONGONE: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

17 Q. And, sir, I take two words -- two statements that you made. You

18 just said if I would -- if you had been a Bosniak you would have gone. I

19 would have gone if I would have been a Bosniak and I would have

20 transferred to the other hospital, the east hospital. And I understand

21 you, doctor. Very clearly I understand you. And just -- I'm sorry I

22 have to be -- go very quickly through all these exhibits with you. My

23 apologies to that. But in that exhibit that was shown to you from the

24 Prosecution, P 03355 for 10 June 1993, the Health Sector -- this report

25 produced by the sector under the authority of Mr. Stojic says that the

Page 37433

1 medical supply was satisfactory or is satisfactory thanks to much

2 appreciated supplies from the donations. That's page 23 of the English

3 version, and 26 of the B/C/S. And mentioned between brackets, just

4 underneath, there was a lack of expert medical staff throughout that

5 year, that period. The first half of 1993.

6 And the second page, page 24 of the English version, and page 27

7 of the B/C/S version, again he says that:

8 "Another large problem is also lack of expert medical staff.

9 Despite the prohibition for the medical staff to leave the HZ-HB, the

10 police at the border crossings of the RH," I take it Republic of Croatia,

11 "failed to prevent a single medical worker in leaving the area of

12 Herceg-Bosna. Decrease in numbers of medical staff, especially of Muslim

13 ethnicity, still continues. At the moment, we lack surgeons and

14 anaesthesiologists and anaesthesiology technicians." Which is what you

15 have told us before.

16 Now, on the other hand, you said clearly that if you had been a

17 Bosnian Muslim you have would have gone to the other hospital or fled.

18 But on the other hand, as you can see here on page 25 of the English

19 version, and I think it's page 28 -- in the top of page 28 of the B/C/S

20 version, it says that:

21 "All services at that time were engaged at the maximum and

22 operating with the relatively small number of expert staff," you

23 mentioned anaesthesiologist, the only Bosnian anaesthesiologist that you

24 have in the hospital, for example, "which in our opinion is caused by

25 unjustified departure of medical staff of Croatian ethnicity to the

Page 37434

1 Republic of Croatia." So you justified the flight of the Bosnian Muslims

2 but not of the Croatian people. Do you agree with this, sir?

3 MR. LONGONE: Let the witness respond --

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

5 MR. LONGONE: -- I'm cross-examining. Let the witness respond,

6 please.

7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] No, before we hear the answer. My

8 objection comes before the witness is allowed to answer. Your Honours,

9 with all due respect, and I have listened carefully, had I received this

10 question after this question which has three hypotheticals, I wouldn't

11 know what I was being asked. Do I agree with what? What? There are

12 four things being put forward here. So it is my suggestion that the

13 Prosecutor breaks his question down into four, A, B, C, D, and then ask

14 whether A is correct, Bis correct or whatever. This way it's completely

15 non-understandable. And there's an error here, he didn't say that

16 anybody fled or that he fled.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your question was very long and

18 I see all your sentences in the transcript and I say how will the witness

19 understand all of this. Now, I think you need to be more concise in your

20 questions in order for the witness to be able to answer and then you move

21 ahead.

22 MR. LONGONE: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

23 Q. Sir, my question is the following: Here it says that the

24 departure of medical staff of Croatian ethnicity during the first half of

25 1993 was unjustified. This was produced by the Defence Department of

Page 37435

1 Herceg-Bosna. Do you agree with that, sir, that it was unjustified?

2 A. I only agree that people left and that the hospital was in dire

3 straits as regards staffing. As for the reasons of people leaving and my

4 justifying or not a person's motives, I think everyone has to deal with

5 that on their own, for themselves. A nurse who is not a soldier and has

6 three children, if she decides to leave, I understand her decision. But

7 as to whether it's justified, that's for somebody else to decide.

8 I know that we were constantly short of staff, we were constantly

9 trying to recruit more staff. And as for the conditions we worked in,

10 there were weeks when people didn't leave their work posts. They worked

11 to the point of exhaustion. And then there would be a lull in the war

12 and after that they would come back to work and so on and so forth. So

13 this was something that I hope will never happen anywhere again.

14 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Let's move to another subject related

15 to the Health Sector. In the same document you will see, on page 26 and

16 27 and 28, there is a reference of all -- and this is in the B/C/S

17 version, 29 and 30, of all the medical supplies and material value of

18 goods and shipments that the hospital did receive, the war hospital in

19 Mostar from the HVO, the health centre in Mostar, the medical supply

20 service. I think the figures they speak for themselves. And you have a

21 number -- under number 3, the origin of the donation throughout that time

22 to the HVO Health Sector including your hospital and you also mentioned,

23 we saw the video of donations from units from the UNPROFOR and here

24 mentioning donations from UNHCR, Doctors Without Borders, and many

25 international organisations to all the hospitals from the HVO throughout

Page 37436

1 that time.

2 Point 6, sir, of that report at the end says: "The work in the

3 warehouse." And clearly says that the war conditions are quite bad

4 because of unfavourable work temperature where all these medicines and

5 supplies were stocked in Herceg-Bosna. And it says between brackets

6 "favourable to the storage," and it says that "it's dusty and drafty due

7 to large space, and on the other hand, we lack the space for receiving

8 the goods and for permanent storage."

9 So you have so much donations you lack for space to storage them.

10 And in fact you have so much that you mention in your statement, sir, and

11 here as well it's mentioned, that already in 1993 you have problems with

12 medicines that were not used and then they need to be destroyed. And in

13 this case, for example, you see that it mentions that in point 7,

14 Dr. Ivo Curic, it mention in this report that around 100 tonnes of such

15 material was destroyed under his supervision at that time.

16 Do you agree with that, sir, with this report from the

17 Health Sector?

18 A. I have to comment on it. I cannot agree a priori and I'll tell

19 you why. All this is correct. For years throughout the war we received

20 lots of donations from all over the world, enormous quantities of

21 medicines and other material --

22 Q. One second, sir. My question was -- I don't want you to comment.

23 My question was whether you agree and you said that the information in

24 this document was correct. That's what you said --

25 A. No, that is not what I said.

Page 37437

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Your Honour. I

2 waited for the witness to answer. May the witness please be allowed to

3 complete his answer. If not, then I will put the question to him in

4 redirect but then it will be on my time. A question of ten lines has

5 been put to him and he is not allowed to answer in two sentences. I

6 think this is incorrect towards the witness.

7 MR. LONGONE: At line 10, it says that all this is correct and he

8 wanted to comment about the -- something else but I just want to ask -- I

9 wanted to ask him whether he agree with that and he said all this is

10 correct. Line 10 of the page we are discussing right now.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not the way I said it.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I also listen to what we said.

13 If 100 tonnes of material is destroyed then there is a problem.

14 Destroyed, is it done on purpose or is it because the products are past

15 their shelf life? We have a doctor before us and he can maybe tell us

16 why there is material that was actually destroyed. There is certainly a

17 reason. Yes, doctor?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the last comment

19 about 100 tonnes destroyed is what I want to respond to. Let me repeat.

20 We received a lot of that and I'm sure that these figures are taken from

21 our books. But what I don't know or, rather, I don't know where this

22 information comes from that 100 tonnes was destroyed because in

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina we did not have facilities for destroying these

24 quantities, for burning them. We don't have such an incinerator. We

25 received a lot from Germany, and the media wrote about this for a long

Page 37438

1 time, and I accept part of the problem was that the storage space was not

2 appropriate. We had 3.000 square metres of an unfinished building and

3 this could affect the quality of the medicines and their usability.

4 I do have to give you an example which is something that rarely

5 happens. There was a point in time --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Speak a little slowly,

7 Mr. Witness, because in what you are saying the French interpreter is

8 extraordinary, he manages to interpret what you are saying, but when I

9 see in English there are things that are missing. You said awhile ago

10 that you received from Germany solution dating back from 1950, and in the

11 English text this is not mentioned. So kindly, kindly slow down.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I'll try. I have

13 to complete my answer. At one point we had a situation where we had a

14 mountain of medicines which had to be discarded, and we didn't know what

15 to do with them so we took 200 barrels of 200 litres, put concrete inside

16 and we stacked them all, and they were outside for a long time under a

17 roof outside our hospital. This turned out to be an ecological problem

18 and for years the press wrote about it. And to cut the story short we

19 exported this medicine to be incinerated in Germany and we had to pay for

20 this. We had to pay 150.000 German marks from the hospital funds for

21 this to be destroyed. So Dr. Curic could not have incinerated this

22 quantity of medicines. He may have incinerated other things but not

23 medicines, I'm sure.

24 MR. LONGONE:

25 Q. This is a report from the Health Sector of the minister of

Page 37439

1 defence and he says that the warehouse at the Heliodrom was used -- the

2 warehouse at the Heliodrom was used to actually store the bulk of expired

3 goods. That's on page 27 of the English version. Now --

4 A. Excuse me. I'm speaking of the depot in the hospital in

5 Bijeli Brijeg. I don't know about other warehouses. They did not come

6 under my purview. I'm speaking of the depot in the hospital which was

7 run by my pharmacists with some other people and then it came under the

8 control of the health centre -- sector, but the location remained in the

9 Bijeli Brijeg hospital until the end.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Doctor, I was a bit surprised

11 when you talked about the solutions dating back from 1950 that the

12 Germans sent to you. Does that mean there were donations of medicines

13 that were already -- had already expired when they were sent to you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not just the Germans, from all

15 sorts of places. I don't want to lessen the value of the donations we

16 received, because without these good quality donations, we could not have

17 treated people in Bosnia-Herzegovina. We didn't have money. But inside

18 every truck-load there was always useless medicine and that ceased to

19 surprise us after awhile.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But a very

21 ultra-technical question. Now, if a medicine has expired, take an

22 antibiotic, for example, despite the fact that it has expired and that

23 you have no medicines left, can you use this expired medicine?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the medicine has been stored

25 under good conditions. In the case of pills, for example, if the only

Page 37440

1 problem is that the shelf life has expired, that it expired only a year

2 ago, let's say, then you can use that because we know that this medicine

3 is perhaps 20 or 30 per cent less effective so you just increase the

4 dosage. So if you have nothing else to use, you can use those that

5 appear to be in good conditions. But you cannot do this with syrups or

6 capsules. You can do it with pills but you have to be cautious and only

7 do this when you have no other option.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And for blood pouches, blood

9 bags, are those that cannot be used once the date has expired?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the case of blood there must be

11 no deviation. Blood is an organ used under strictly controlled

12 conditions, and it's better not to give it at all than if you are not

13 doing it under proper conditions. In no case can you give a patient

14 blood which is not in good order. Never.

15 MR. LONGONE: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

16 Q. Sir, you, yourself, you have given your Hippocratic oath; isn't

17 it?

18 A. A long time ago.

19 Q. And I understand clearly that you have done all the best to stick

20 to it throughout the war and you treated any patient that came to your

21 hands?

22 A. Absolutely, yes.

23 Q. But your actions did not reflect the policies of the HVO

24 authorities because they didn't take any Hippocratic oath?

25 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour. [Overlapping speakers] I really don't

Page 37441

1 want to object but this is unbelievable. I believe that --

2 MR. LONGONE: It is believable. Let me continue with my

3 cross-examination.

4 Q. Sir, we can -- which is not allowed?

5 MR. KOVACIC: [Microphone not activated] [Overlapping speakers]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, let the Prosecutor

7 ask the questions and then the Judges will see whether -- if the question

8 is so stupid then the Judges will draw the necessary consequences. Very

9 well, Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know what you wanted to demonstrate.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The President's microphone has gone off.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Forgive me, Mr. Prosecutor, my

12 microphone was not working. I don't know what you wanted to demonstrate.

13 It raised an objection from Mr. Kovacic. I wanted to say that if the

14 question is a stupid one, then the Judges will draw the necessary

15 consequences.

16 MR. LONGONE: Thank you very much, Your Honours. What I wanted

17 to point out here is the fact that we have heard throughout the testimony

18 of the witness that, of course, him, himself, as a doctor, and I agree

19 completely with the witness, he has treated any patient irrespective of

20 whether they were either Muslims or Croats or whatever nationality, or

21 whether he was a soldier or -- meaning a combatant or a non-combatant.

22 He and his staff under his command, they treat everyone. But -- and he

23 also mentioned that he never dismiss anyone from his job because they

24 left there, the position at work.

25 Q. And that is my point. The reality is, sir, that many of your

Page 37442

1 medical staff, you didn't dismiss them but, for example, after the

2 9 of May, most of your Bosnian Muslim staff were arrested, and their

3 families as well, and they were taken to the Heliodrom; isn't it?

4 MR. KOVACIC: Objection. Your Honour --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, the Prosecutor has

6 the right to ask this question because for the Prosecutor, he believes

7 that after the 9th of May there were arrests.

8 MR. KOVACIC: [Previous translation continues] ... just small --

9 there is presumption in the question. That means the Prosecutor first

10 have to establish whether this presumption is correct; or in other words,

11 whether the witness knows about that and then put the question. This is

12 it. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Sorry.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, try and check

14 first that the witness is actually aware. You went straight to the heart

15 of the problem. Some rather that there be preliminary steps.

16 MR. LONGONE:

17 Q. Sir, do you remember saying to counsel that in May 1993 your

18 personnel Bosnian Muslim were rounded up and taken to the Heliodrom? Do

19 you remember some of the doctors working for you, Bosnian Muslim, were

20 rounded up and taken to the Heliodrom?

21 A. I remember very well what I said --

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] This question does not -- was not

23 raised in cross-examination. The Prosecutor in -- so this was not raised

24 in the examination-in-chief. The Prosecutor is again mixing up the

25 statement given to Mr. Praljak.

Page 37443

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are right, Ms. Nozica. The

2 problem is that there is a document that the Prosecutor will undoubtedly

3 quote, P 2037, where in this document the doctor is going to intervene to

4 free somebody. That is the whole problem. So let the Prosecutor carry

5 out his cross-examination. It is important to know why an

6 anaesthesiologist was actually arrested and why he intervenes.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may just add something. This comes up

8 almost every time there is a cross-examination, and it is quite clear

9 that cross-examination is not limited to the subject matters of the

10 direct if there are questions put that may assist the case of the party

11 which does the cross-examination. We have applied it like this when the

12 Defence cross-examined and we have applied it consistently now where it

13 is the Prosecutor that cross-examines. And I -- I find it a bit

14 surprising that we have to repeat it practically every week.

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, excuse me, please, by

16 your leave, I have to say this. On page 55, in line 6, it says here

17 that, to the question of the counsel, he said that Bosnian Muslims went

18 to Heliodrom. I intervened because I did not put questions about that.

19 I know that the witness can be questioned as to his credibility, he can

20 be impeached on any topic but I just wanted to say that I did not put

21 this question during the examination-in-chief.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We agree. The document as at

23 P 02367. Mr. Prosecutor, please continue.

24 MR. LONGONE: Yes, sir.

25 Q. You mentioned that all employees, you treated all employees

Page 37444

1 equally. Only you. Now, sir, let me show you a short video of what

2 happened the 9th of May. And that's P 04238, Prosecution Exhibit

3 P 0215 -- please.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] This shows a picture of ethnic

6 cleansing this time carried out by the Croats. According to UN

7 observers, they lack food and blankets. They have been rounded up by

8 force so that they could take nothing with them. There are many families

9 deliberately separated."

10 "Journalist: [Previous translation continues] ... work out how to

11 deal with the hundreds of Muslims they evicted from their homes in Mostar

12 when the fighting began last Sunday. They deny this is some kind of

13 ethnic cleansing. 1400 detainees are being held at an old barracks on

14 the edge of the airport. We were allowed to show them but not the

15 building which looks like a prison. The Croats know the power of an

16 image."

17 "Unidentified speaker: We'll be forced to move these people,

18 said their commander, to somewhere less safe, that doesn't look like a

19 prison. The detainees themselves have been correctly treated, but are

20 not here by choice."

21 "Unidentified speaker: They tell us we must go with them and we

22 must go, but we crying and we don't want to go with them."

23 "Journalist: Under present plans, the detainees will be returned

24 in the next day or two to seek parts of the city. The problem is, there

25 aren't any safe parts of the city."

Page 37445

1 MR. LONGONE:

2 Q. Sir, now, with this introduction, this video, to refresh your

3 recollection what was going on on the 9th of May with some -- or the

4 Bosnian Muslim population as being reported by -- internationally, I want

5 you to concentrate on Exhibit P 02315.

6 And do you have it with you, sir?

7 MR. LONGONE: Please, if the Registrar can assist me. Exhibit

8 P 02315. 02315. Maybe it's there behind you. Is it there behind you?

9 Q. Sir, if you can see it's on the e-court, the document. My

10 apologies for that. At the end of the page of -- this is a report. It's

11 a list of medical staff, employees, sorry, of the Mostar HVO regional

12 field hospital and their family members who were taken away from their

13 flats. Right, you see that, sir? You have it now with you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Right. At the end of this document, sir, there is a signature of

16 the commander of the regional field hospital. Is that your signature,

17 sir?

18 A. No, this is the signature of Dr. Ante Kresic, my assistant, a

19 pediatrician from Mostar. Of course I know about this list. When

20 wartime events started that morning, we had chaos. A great many wounded.

21 The situation was truly chaotic. And in all that upheaval, people came

22 to report to me that some people had not reported to work because they

23 had been taken to a place near Mostar. I called Dr. Ante Kresic, my

24 assistant who was in charge of the health centre which was part of the

25 regional hospital in organisational terms, and I told him to make a list

Page 37446

1 of all the people who had not reported to work that morning in every

2 ward.

3 In the meantime, Dr. Erac [phoen], my assistant for surgery and

4 surgical branches, came to tell me that people had also failed to show up

5 for work there. And when Dr. Ante Kresic drew up the list, I responded

6 by asking that these people be sent back. And within a few hours,

7 Dr. Rebac and the engineer Cujic brought some people back by car, and

8 within the space of two days, they all returned to work and many of them

9 are still working there today.

10 You said that they had been imprisoned; I don't know whether they

11 had been imprisoned or not. I know that they had not come to work. I

12 was at the hospital at the time, struggling to deal with the situation,

13 and all these people came back to work ultimately.

14 Q. Sir, here it says list of employees of the Mostar regional field

15 office hospital and their family members who were taken away from their

16 flats. Did you order, sir, as a commander of the hospital that your

17 employees, these were employees under your command, were taken out of the

18 hospital on the 9 of May? Were you the one that ordered this? Yes or

19 no?

20 A. I absolutely reject this. I definitely did not. I only asked

21 that they be sent back and that's what happened. Never in my life do I

22 punish people. I don't punish my family members, let alone people at

23 work.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sir. Do you know who

25 ordered them to be taken out of their flats. You saw the girl saying

Page 37447

1 that she didn't want to get out from the flats --

2 A. I really don't know that. All I know is that on that day it was

3 a disaster. And speaking as a human being, it seems more logical that

4 they were taken to be kept safe and not to die in the streets, but that

5 is my own interpretation. That's how I see it. It was all very sad and

6 very difficult but we came through it in the end.

7 Q. Sir --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I'm rather troubled by

9 the title of this document. You said that your deputy was the one to

10 have drafted and signed this document. That's fine. But why does it

11 carry this title? That's what I don't understand. The fact that people

12 working at the hospital were taken to the Heliodrom, that's one thing,

13 but why do we have this title here? You and your colleague, you knew

14 that they had left their apartments, their flats or that they had been

15 taken away from their flats. Could you read in your own language because

16 I'm always wary of the English translations, could you tell me in your

17 own language, could you read to me the title of this document? It begins

18 with "Spisak." Could you read that out to me.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. "List of employees of the

20 regional war hospital of the Mostar HVO and members of their families who

21 were taken away from their flats." May I comment?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The list was drawn up by my

24 assistant. The list is correct. It shows that people left and came

25 back. Why did this happen? I don't know if any of you have ever been in

Page 37448

1 a city or a town where so many projectiles land in such a short space of

2 time. People were fleeing from their flats trying to find shelter. At

3 that point somebody rounded them up into trucks and take them away --

4 took them away from the burning town which was all in flames and smoke.

5 So I think it was much better for them to be taken away and to stay

6 alive, and you can call it what you like, then they that they die in the

7 streets and that we later be declared criminals who killed them in the

8 streets.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Prosecutor, go

10 on.

11 MR. LONGONE: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

12 Q. Sir, let's see what happened --

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. Prosecutor. I would like to ask

14 a question of you with regard to your last statement. Wasn't it a

15 terrible discrimination that all the poor Croats in Mostar were left in

16 hell and only the Muslims were saved?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On this same list there are people

18 who are not Muslims, for example, for example, Ivan Marinovic. Then

19 there are others. Savo Popovic is not a Muslim. Jasna Culjak is not a

20 Muslim. Miletic Edin, he is not a Muslim either. I know him personally.

21 His name looks Muslim but he is not. And, well, I won't look any

22 further, but Ranko Milicevic, likewise, is not a Muslim. People were

23 going to work and this happened. This started happening at 7.00. Since

24 I started from Siroki Brijeg.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

Page 37449

1 MR. LONGONE: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

2 Q. In the same list you have the name of Ahmed Mujic. Number 9

3 listed. Do you remember what happened with Mr. Ahmed -- Dr. Ahmed Mujic,

4 later on, in October 1993? Do you know what happened to him?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. Let's see Exhibit P 05944.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It does not figure in our --

8 MR. LONGONE: Sorry. My apologies. P 05939.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do now. Thank you.

10 MR. LONGONE:

11 Q. So you see it now? Okay. So that's it. Perfect. Just keep

12 that document in ...

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Just to get the record right because the number

14 you have indicated does not figure now. Was it P 05939?

15 MR. LONGONE: 5939. That's it, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

17 MR. LONGONE: I made a mistake myself, and I apologise to the

18 Registry. I mentioned two exhibits. The one which is being shown now to

19 the witness is P 05944. And the following document that I will show to

20 you after this one is P 05939, as Your Honour mentioned.

21 Q. So in this first one, sir, you can see that there is a protest

22 there and --

23 A. I beg your pardon, but the father of Dr. Travljanin, I've never

24 seen him, but I know his daughter and I know of the whole case. And he

25 was born in 1914.

Page 37450

1 Q. Let me ask you the question, sir. This is a protest written on

2 18 October 1993, addressed to Mr. Bruno Stojic, signed by

3 Dr. Ante Kvesic, you, and Brigadier Dr. Ivan Bagaric. Do you recognise

4 your signature there, sir, in this document?

5 A. Yes, yes, I do. Absolutely.

6 Q. Let's read the protest:

7 "In early morning hours of 18 October 1993, Dr. Slavenka

8 Travljanin and her father were killed in their apartment by unknown

9 persons. Civilians and in uniform -- and uniform, while the mother was

10 wounded. Dr. Slavenka Travljanin spent the entire war working for the

11 dialysis centre of the HVO Mostar regional hospital," you mentioned that

12 you were in the dire need of dialysis people. "As neurology

13 subspecialist, she set an example to others in her work and relations

14 with colleagues and patients."

15 Now, a little bit farther in this protest that you signed, sir,

16 and you addressed to Mr. Stojic in October 1993, it says further on that:

17 "These were loyal workers of the HVO Mostar and this tragic and

18 shameful example we warn you for the last time that we were not able to

19 restrain either the Muslims or Croatian medical staff in the RRB HVO

20 Mostar because of this. The workers of both the Health Sector and the

21 RRB HVO Mostar are disgusted by this type of terror inflicted on their

22 colleagues in the town which is not the first of this kind. It's not the

23 first of its kind. This is why we urgently ask the concrete measures to

24 be undertaken."

25 I have only one question on this, sir. Were they Bosnian Muslim,

Page 37451

1 these doctors?

2 A. These are Muslims.

3 Q. My second question, sir. In this report do you recognise, as you

4 sit here, that this was not the first kind of terror inflicted to your

5 colleagues? We are talking about October 1993. Do agree with what you

6 have written at that time, sir; yes or no?

7 A. In principle I never give yes or no answers but I can explain and

8 go back to your first question. There is no yes or no answer as far as

9 I'm concerned.

10 Q. Did you write this protest, sir, yes or no? That's my question.

11 A. Of course, of course.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 A. But your first question wasn't that.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, going back to the document we were

15 discussing, P 02315, and in the same list under internal medicine guard

16 you have - one second - 21, Nevzeta Kreso. And I will ask, please, to be

17 shown also in e-court Exhibit P 03219. P 03219. This is a request, sir,

18 it's not done by you, it's a request dated 6 July 1993, and it reflects,

19 sir, a request of the Convicts Battalion from the HVO, asking to release

20 the family of Dr. Kreso parents from the facility. And they say that:

21 "We need that in order to manipulate with other Muslims in Bijelo

22 Polje, and they will be returned." Returned to the prison, I take it.

23 Do you see that, sir?

24 A. But I don't know what you want to say by that.

25 Q. Did you know, sir, that staff under your command, did you know

Page 37452

1 that the family of Dr. Kreso were arrested? Did you know that? That in

2 July 1993 they were arrested? ? You didn't know? Please, we need an

3 audible answer?

4 A. How should I know? Well, I'm not an idiot that I can pull this

5 way and that. I made a list of people who did not come to work on the

6 9th of May. After that, I didn't investigate. I was in hospital -- in

7 the hospital doing my work. I don't know what happened in any other

8 sphere. I was on call in the hospital 24 hours, and I said that

9 Dr. Kreso was not from my hospital. Some people left and returned. I

10 don't even know the man.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Doctor, please remain calm.

12 Nobody is trying to manipulate you. You are a witness for justice since

13 you are under oath and the question that anyone might ask is when you

14 have a colleague who disappears because he has been arrested, you might

15 wonder what you do to find out what happened to him. If I tomorrow, for

16 instance, or I see Judge Prandler disappearing tomorrow, I shall wonder

17 where he has gone, what's happened to him. You see what I mean? This is

18 a question I ask you. Amongst your colleagues some were, let's say,

19 arrested. Now, the question is what do you do to find out why were they

20 arrested; and two, what you do so that they can come back as quickly as

21 possible to do their medical work. That's the underlying question.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As to that question, my answer will

23 be the same as the first time. When it concerned the hospital staff, I

24 did everything necessary, everything that was possible and all the people

25 returned to work. I'm sorry that the Prosecutor didn't give me an

Page 37453

1 opportunity to explain the situation around Dr. Travljanin because that

2 is indeed something that needs to be clarified. And when it comes to

3 Dr. Kreso, I don't know the man. He wasn't in my hospital and I've never

4 seen him. So I can't look for somebody in Holland, for example, who has

5 gone missing.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

7 MR. LONGONE:

8 Q. Just for the record that Dr. Nevzeta Kreso was in the hospital

9 and he is listed under internal medicine, ward number 21. My following

10 exhibit excerpts for you is Exhibit P 02367.

11 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. [Previous

12 translation continues] ... [In English] ... the Prosecutor was

13 witnessing, I would advise him to read this document until the last line.

14 In the last line it said -- it connected this person with Bijelo Polje;

15 that is a third location. That has nothing to do.

16 So the witness here said, I don't know this Dr. Kreso, and the

17 Prosecutor now knows that this is the same Dr. Kreso who worked in the

18 hospital. Kreso is a frequent name. Stand up and tell them. Kreso is a

19 very common name. We don't know here whether it is male or female,

20 whether it is the same Kreso or any other, but if the Prosecutor know, he

21 can testify no problem. I think this is a really far-reaching

22 conclusion, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, Dr. Kreso, this

24 Dr. Kreso was he was one working under number 21 as an internal medical

25 doctor? Is he the same one as the one that we talked about?

Page 37454

1 MR. LONGONE: Thank you, Mr. President. I leave that assessment

2 to the Trial Chamber, sir. And I will continue with the following

3 exhibit.

4 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I think that the Prosecutor should

5 make a choice. Either he is testifying or should he ask you to make a

6 conclusion without the facts. We are here to establish the facts and

7 then the honourable Chamber will draw up conclusions, but facts the

8 parties are here for. So is it a fact or not. Maybe the witness may

9 help.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this person called

11 Kreso, was he arrested or did he continue working with you in the

12 hospital?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me repeat, on the first list

14 all those people returned. After that, Dr. Kreso left the internal

15 medicine department and I never saw her again. And her husband, I know

16 he is a doctor, too, but I've never seen him. So I have absolutely no

17 knowledge that in July -- now, listen, the list I was commenting on was

18 the 9th of May, and they were taken away and returned. But what happened

19 to this lady doctor in July and she was no longer in my hospital, I mean,

20 the hospital on the west bank, I really can't say. And I don't know that

21 all the staff in my hospital. It's impossible; there are too many of

22 them. But I'm certain that she was no longer in the hospital so that's

23 what I can say. So you are referring to a different situation now and a

24 different month. It's July. So please don't mix up apples and pears. I

25 have a list and I stand by that list, and then I've been given an exhibit

Page 37455

1 here that I know nothing about and isn't my document.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Prosecutor, on the list on the letter in

3 P 023 -- 03219 that we have here, in the B/C/S version reference is made

4 to Doktora Kreso. Am I right in assuming that this is female?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally don't know if it's a

6 man or a woman because they were a married couple of doctors, both the

7 wife and the husband were doctors. But in the internal medicine

8 department was a lady doctor but I didn't meet her ever either.

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Kvesic, naively and not being conversant

10 with the Croat language, I would have assumed that it makes a difference

11 between Doktor, and that would be male, and Doktora, and that would be

12 female; is that wrong?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, grammatically correct but

14 what usually happens in lists you have the DR, and that's for doctor, so

15 you can conclude what you like. I can't say either way.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Well, here for once we do not have an

17 abbreviation. Do you know several female doctors by the name of Kreso?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally don't know this one

19 either. This lady either. All I know is that she was in the internal

20 medicine department. And let me tell you that I was commander for a very

21 short time.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

23 MR. LONGONE: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

24 Q. Sir, let's go to Exhibit P 02367. That exhibit, sir, is dated

25 13 May 1993, and we already discussed in the document from the health

Page 37456

1 department from the minister of -- from the Defence of the HVO which says

2 that there was a especially a lack of surgeons and anaesthesiologists in

3 the hospital throughout that period in 1993. And if you see this

4 request, sir, this request says commander of the Mostar Croatian Defence

5 Council war hospital, Dr. Ante Kvesic, is the signature. Is this yours,

6 sir? That's your document?

7 A. Yes, yes, of course.

8 Q. I'm going to read the document, sir. And it says:

9 "Request: We ask you to release the family (two children and

10 parents) of Dr. Emir or Emira Bebanic who is working as an

11 anaesthesiologist at the Mostar Croatian Defence Council Regional

12 War Hospital for five days without a break." And then, "Driver

13 Hajrudin Begic drives to most dangerous places ever since the war

14 started, so we ask you to provide his family the opportunity to go home,

15 including Safet, Mejra and Zejna Hadzic. Surgeon Dr. Drace works places

16 ever since the war started, and so we ask you to release his family,

17 including his mother Emina Drace, his brother Nedzad and his

18 sister-in-law Sanja."

19 Sir, they have to release the first anaesthesiologist at least

20 for five days without a break, to be released from where? Do you

21 remember, sir?

22 A. Of course I remember but could you please state the context of

23 the first sentence exactly. I ask that Dr. Emira Bebanic work for five

24 days in surgery continuously and I requested that she be released. So

25 she wasn't in Heliodrom for five days; she was in the hospital

Page 37457

1 throughout. But I used my authority to help these people meet up with

2 their family members and I'm very proud of that. I did that in several

3 instances so I see nothing wrong there. I think that's what I should

4 have done. Do you agree?

5 Q. I agree with you. My question is -- don't take it personally.

6 My question is -- I'm asking you only, you said that they have to be

7 released. From where they have to be released, these people?

8 A. People came to me working in the hospital and complained that

9 when these people were rounded up in town, that parts of their families

10 had been taken away, I mean to Heliodrom, but I'm not sure. And so I

11 wrote this request, loud and clear, and signed it and they took the

12 request with them and took them to the various administrative bodies. I

13 don't know where; I didn't take the request. But they obviously did take

14 copies and obviously they were successful because they didn't come back

15 with the same problem.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm trying to imagine what your

17 position is. It's difficult but Judges must try to understand things.

18 You at the time were in charge of that hospital, the so-called wartime

19 hospital. Now, a colleague of yours Dr. Bebanic, who apparently works

20 very hard as an anaesthesiologist since you state that he worked five

21 days without interruption. If he -- since he was the only

22 anaesthesiologist. So five days, five days, he must have been very tired

23 indeed. Dr. Bebanic must say to you in that case, well, Look my family

24 has been arrested, my children and my parents both. That's an important

25 thing he is saying to you. You draft this document. Now, nobody

Page 37458

1 complains about that.

2 But when he says to you that his children have been arrested, you

3 must wonder about why have the children of this doctor been arrested.

4 Did you call somebody on the phone, for instance, at the Department of

5 Defence to ask for explanations? What did it mean that children were

6 arrested, children of a doctor who was working at the military hospital

7 of the HVO? Did you do that or did you simply do the minimum service,

8 i.e., give in a written request to -- actually we don't know to whom, so

9 that these people should be released? Do you remember the context?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During those days and the

11 situations that occurred, I'll remember for as long as I live, you can't

12 forget things like that. I was just 29 when I became commander of the

13 hospital and I think this is something that you have during your

14 upbringing. I wanted to stay on on the hospital as a doctor and as a

15 human being. That was my ambition. And you saw a moment ago that I

16 succeeded in that because as a human being, I'm very proud when I walk

17 the streets of Mostar and I never fail to help people. And I said at the

18 outset, and I didn't want somebody -- don't want somebody to

19 misunderstand this but I personally used my car, for example, to

20 transport people. Nothing was too much for me if I could help people.

21 So you can ask the people, the locals what the commander of the war

22 hospital was like. I'm really proud of my work there and I never failed

23 to help a fellow human being.

24 Now, specifically whether I drove the doctor or not, possibly I

25 did, but I can't claim that I did. It was in 1993, after all, so I've

Page 37459

1 forgotten. A lot of time has gone by and sometimes I do my best to

2 forget because they were very difficult timed and a burden if you kept

3 thinking about them. So let me repeat: I'm very proud of everything I

4 did, as a human being and as a doctor in the hospital and there's nobody

5 in this world whom I would not talk to.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You aren't answering my

7 question. You are the commander of the military hospital, a colleague

8 who is Dr. Bebanic, tells you, My children and my parents have been

9 arrested. At that time I want to know whether you telephoned your

10 authorities to signal the problem, or you simply did the minimum, namely

11 the document that we have before us? Because you see, for me, tomorrow

12 if my colleague tells me his children have been arrested, I don't think

13 I'll just, you know, pay a minimum service. I will try to find out why

14 my colleague's children have been arrested. In particular, if I exercise

15 a function of authority. That's what I'm trying to understand.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me repeat. As

17 commander of the hospital, I reacted in every situation to the full as a

18 human being, that is my constitutional makeup and I propose that you ring

19 up Dr. Bebanic, the lady doctor, and I'm sure she'll be able to give you

20 a much better answer. I never omitted to do something to help.

21 Now, you refer to these children who were arrested and I state

22 that those children were taken away to safety because it was terrible in

23 those streets and we didn't have anywhere else to put those children up.

24 We didn't have any nursery schools or anything like that. So I allow for

25 the possibility that some people, in their own minds, would invert things

Page 37460

1 but those children were not mistreated, they were not prisoners, they

2 were just taken out of a town that was burning.

3 And I suggest that you call this lady doctor, Dr. Bebanic, and

4 ask her to tell you how things stood.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Doctor, you are not a legal

6 expert, we know that you are 29 years old, we can understand that. But

7 in your document you talk about released. And if you say released, that

8 means they had been these people had been arrested. You see?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we could discuss linguistics

10 here. If somebody has been taken to an area that is protected and then

11 released from that area, doesn't mean necessarily that they were in

12 prison. I'm not a lawyer and I don't think I would be a lawyer in a

13 second life, but I will not allow somebody to comment my acts and to

14 reverse them. Let me repeat. At all times I did everything I could

15 within my power to help people and even sometimes surpassed what was

16 called for. It was never a problem for me to get into my car and drive

17 somebody where they needed to go.

18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, just a clarification on

19 the document that we have, what I don't seem to be able to see who is

20 this document addressed to? This protest letter?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see in the heading, it

22 was sent to the Defence Department, and Dr. Bagaric always reacted the

23 same way as I did. Our reactions were always geared towards helping

24 people. And now 15 and 16 years on, I don't know who this was addressed

25 to because I haven't seen this document for 16 years.

Page 37461

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] It is addressed to the Department

2 of Defence because in actual fact the authority to which you have sent

3 this letter of protest could be in a measure not only to release the

4 persons if it had the authority, but also to explain the reasons for

5 which these persons were retained or arrested or displaced, depending on

6 the term that you prefer to use. But then you say that after so many

7 years you don't remember which persons -- which authorities you had

8 addressed yourself to; is that right?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know -- well, it's

10 been 16 years since that time but I remember when the lady doctor

11 arrived, I remember that we wrote this document, I remember that my

12 driver drove her. But this is 16 years on. If I had to take an oath,

13 I'd have to stop and think because 16 years is a long period of time,

14 especially if one wishes to forget certain events.

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Prosecutor,

17 sir.

18 MR. LONGONE: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

19 Q. Let's continue with Exhibit P 03064.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

21 MR. LONGONE:

22 Q. P 03064.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll break in a few minutes.

24 The interpretation didn't function. I was saying that we'll have to take

25 a break in a few minutes. Five minutes.

Page 37462

1 MR. LONGONE:

2 Q. 03064. Otherwise it's on e-court, you can see it on your display

3 on the computer. Thank you very much, usher. And this is an order,

4 1st July, 1993, so almost a month after the 9 of May, 1993, and it's an

5 order. And let me read for you, sir:

6 "Order: Based on the request by Mr. Ante Kvesic, commander of

7 the regional war hospital in Mostar, and in order to provide necessary

8 anaesthesia and blood transfusion, the following persons are to be

9 transported to Zeljko Coric, communications officer of the HVO main

10 medical staff, who will take them to their work-place." Number 1,

11 Mujo Duric; second, Zlatko Kazazic; three, Zlatko Taslaman. Authorised

12 and approved by Mr. Berislav Pusic.

13 And we remember, sir, that you said, and it was mentioned in the

14 report, that there were a need of anaesthesiologists earlier. Where were

15 these people, sir? Where they were have to be taken from?

16 A. These were employees of my hospital and I ask that they be

17 returned because obviously they were at Heliodrom. But I'd just like to

18 repeat, you said one month later. I don't know when they were taken;

19 they weren't taken during the first days but sometime later on. Now,

20 whenever information reached me that a staff member had been taken away

21 somewhere always reacted and asked that they be returned. Always and in

22 all situations and quite obviously in this one too.

23 So I don't know who I sent this request to. I can't remember

24 everything. I mean, my hardware is set up differently. I would like you

25 to find my request so that we could comment on that and not this. I'm

Page 37463

1 sure I have it somewhere in my hospital.

2 Q. Sir, I would also like to but, unfortunately, I don't have it

3 here today. The important thing here, sir, is that upon your request it

4 was ordered a release of these people in July that were at the Heliodrom

5 and that they went to work to provide the necessary anaesthesia and blood

6 transfusion?

7 A. That's not correct. I requested that they be released, so the

8 order was issued by someone else to someone else. I requested. That's

9 what it says. An order and a request are not the same, in Croatian at

10 least.

11 Q. Do you remember why they were arrested, these people, sir, and

12 sent to the Heliodrom?

13 A. I have absolutely no idea. I went into action when I found that

14 they were not at work and I requested that they be returned and they

15 were, but I didn't conduct any investigations. How should I know why

16 somebody was considered a suspect or whatever?

17 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that only the needed medical staff,

18 the indispensable medical staff who were Bosnian Muslim and who were

19 arrested at the Heliodrom were the only ones that, upon your request,

20 were released to work in your hospital because of a lack of an

21 anaesthesiologist or the lack of surgeons or the lack of other medical

22 staff?

23 A. Incorrect. I asked for all those who were absent. And let me

24 repeat that. And on the first list we saw not everybody was Bosniak, so

25 I -- whenever I received information that some people were missing, I

Page 37464

1 requested that they be returned. All of them. And I'd like you to bear

2 that in mind.

3 MR. LONGONE: I have one more document before the break,

4 Your Honours, if you allow me. P 02377.

5 Q. And, sir, this is another -- it's a list of personnel of the

6 service for engineering and maintenance of facilities whose work is

7 indispensable for the Croatian Defence Council in Mostar regional war

8 hospital. And you have the names of the people there, Emir Dizdarevic,

9 Elvir Selimotic, Sule Drljevic not there. Apparently it wasn't there.

10 Mirsad Grebovic and Dzemal Behram and it's signed by Dr. Ante Kvesic. So

11 these people were really indispensable for the work of the hospital;

12 isn't it?

13 A. Of course, because a hospital doesn't mean anaesthesia alone.

14 You had to have maintenance of the facilities and everything else.

15 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I have

16 to react for the benefit of everyone in the courtroom because the

17 translation of the stamp under Dr. Kvesic's name is wrong. On the

18 original stamp it says the Republic of Bosnian Herzegovina, the Croatian

19 Community of Herceg-Bosna, Mostar, regional war hospital, Health Sector,

20 Defence Department. Whereas in the English version, the English

21 translation, it says that it is a stamp of the military police

22 administration. I'm referring to the upper stamp and I think this is an

23 important point. Thank you.

24 MR. LONGONE: Thank you very much, counsel.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 37465

1 MR. LONGONE:

2 Q. Sir, again we have seen a list of people, they were either

3 surgeons, anaesthesiologists, blood transfusions and engineers which were

4 indispensable to the work of the HVO hospital. Isn't it true, sir, that

5 the Bosnian Muslim medical staff that were released from the Heliodrom

6 were released because they were indispensable for the work of the HVO

7 hospital?

8 A. Absolutely incorrect. Now, I can remember, for example, for

9 gynaecology, you have the same surname for seven people, a whole family,

10 just not the lady doctor who was on the job and hadn't been taken away.

11 So I asked in the same way for everybody to be returned. I wasn't

12 interested in anything else. And if you look at gynaecology on the first

13 list, it's just the lady doctor that was there. But as I said, the

14 important thing was that when I saw that somebody was missing, I reacted

15 and asked that they be returned. I took steps.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll going to take a break.

17 You have 10 minutes, Mr. Prosecutor. See how you get organised so you

18 can actually deal with the documents that you haven't dealt with up until

19 now. We'll be resuming in 20 minutes.

20 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, as I said to

23 you, you have 10 minutes remaining, please.

24 MR. LONGONE: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. Sir, Dr. Kvesic, I want you to go back to a document that was

Page 37466

1 discussed with counsel in the beginning of your testimony, 2D 00566. And

2 do you have it with you, sir, do you have it in front of you, the

3 document?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. This is a list of wounded members of the ABiH, as it's said

6 there, who were sent from the HVO war hospital in Mostar to Split. And

7 you were saying in the beginning of your testimony today that some of

8 them, they seemed that were from the ABiH, some of them it doesn't say

9 whether they were from the ABiH, but they were transferred to Split from

10 Mostar west hospital for further treatment. I want you to -- to ask you,

11 do you know the circumstances, for example, in which Saric Senad, which

12 is number 5 in that list, was wounded? Do you remember, sir?

13 A. I can only tell how serious the injuries were by the diagnosis,

14 but I cannot say anything about the circumstances of injury. The reason

15 these people were transferred was that these injuries were extremely

16 serious. So we were unable to deal with them properly. If you see that

17 this man has a fractured back bone, that's very serious and our surgeons

18 couldn't deal with it. And if a man is a paraplegic because of an injury

19 to the spinal cord, these are very serious injuries. So we just gave

20 them first aid, primary treatment to save their lives but then we had to

21 send them on to receive proper treatment.

22 Some were -- and some were not. Some have been entered as

23 members of the ABiH and others were members but nobody wrote this down.

24 It didn't matter. They were seriously wounded so they had to be

25 transported to Split in order to get proper treatment, the kind of

Page 37467

1 treatment they needed.

2 Q. Thank you very much, sir. I will ask you just to keep that

3 document with you. I will ask you to keep that document with you, and

4 then to focus in the following one, which is related to this document.

5 And this is Exhibit from the Prosecution, P 03936. You can see it, I'm

6 sure, in electronic format. P 03936. And this -- do you have it with

7 you, the document, sir?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This report from the 4 August 1993, we see that on the 5th of

10 August, the person -- this person Senad Saric was transferred. So this

11 document is from one day before, the 4 of August. It says that the

12 detainee Senad Saric was wounded when they were working for one of -- for

13 the light assault brigade. Do you see that, sir? Do you see that?

14 A. Yes, but what is your question?

15 Q. My question is to see that this person that you mentioned here,

16 Senad Saric, the circumstances under which he was wounded?

17 A. As to the circumstances, I don't know about them. We received

18 the patient, admitted him to hospital, and did whatever we could for him.

19 But truly, I cannot comment on the circumstances. I can speculate or

20 not, but I really don't know.

21 Q. All right. Sir, and we still have this document, 2D 00566. For

22 example, let's see another patient was a Muslim that was transferred on

23 the 15 August 1993. And Kadus Anija [phoen], he was transferred on the

24 15 of August.

25 MR. LONGONE: And I will ask the Registry to show to the witness

Page 37468

1 document P 04157.

2 Q. Now, this document is also dated 13 August 1993. The person was

3 transferred on the 15 August 1993 for further treatment. Here it says

4 that Nijaz Kladusak was wounded by the BH Army and was kept for

5 treatment.

6 Let's continue with another document related to that list.

7 Number 10 in the list of people that you certified that were severely

8 wounded and transferred to Split. Kurtovic Mirsad, that's Exhibit

9 P 04668 from the Prosecution. P 04668. Again this document is

10 31 August 1993. And then on the 2nd September, 1993, Mr. Mirsad Kurtovic

11 was transferred to Split and in the report from the general present for

12 Mr. Stanko Bozic says that he was wounded by the sniper enemy where he

13 working as a detainee. This was a detainee from earlier on.

14 My question, sir, to you is: Do you remember whether many people

15 or some Bosnian Muslims as these ones that were transferred for treatment

16 at your hospital were Bosnian Muslims that were detainees at the

17 Heliodrom, the ones that were transferred with these severe and serious

18 injuries?

19 A. I keep repeating two things. I was the commander of the

20 hospital. Whoever needed hospital treatment came to the hospital and

21 they were always taken care of. Outside the hospital, I really don't

22 know. I really don't know how these people were wounded or where. My

23 job was not to find that out because I was not in the police force.

24 Either one or the other. I was a doctor trying to keep the hospital well

25 supplied, to keep it running and we never omitted do whatever we could

Page 37469

1 for a patient. So I really don't know anything about this. I did not

2 participate in that. From the moment the patient arrived in hospital to

3 the time he was transferred to Split, that's what I know about.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Let's concentrate now on Exhibit P 05465.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I understand what you are

6 saying but let's take the example of a person that you may have operated.

7 Normally the doctors would go and see him, discuss with him, to ask what

8 his state is like, whether he is getting better, does he have running a

9 fever, and as in your profession as a doctor that's a psychological

10 dimension as well, you have to talk to the patient. The patient is not

11 an object. So somebody who is wounded by a sniper and who is

12 hospitalised and operated, he will say yes, I received a bullet, I don't

13 know where it came from, and at that time the physician will talk to the

14 patient. Is that not how it happened in your hospital?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I absolutely agree that a patient

16 needs to be psychologically uplifted, but he will certainly not be

17 uplifted by talking about snipers and how he was wounded. You have to

18 give him back his will to live, not try to knock it out of him. Because

19 everybody in wartime was hit by shrapnel or bullets or whatever, so I

20 absolutely distance myself from things that happened where I was not

21 present and didn't see what was going on. I really did nothing outside

22 the hospital and I really don't see how I can answer questions about

23 things I wasn't part of. I really don't know. I'm telling you, I don't

24 know. I'm willing to tell you everything I know. I know all about the

25 hospital and I'll tell you all about that. As for the rest, I don't

Page 37470

1 know.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you don't know, you don't

3 know.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Just a collateral question, Mr. Kvesic. These

5 patients, would you personally have seen them, all or some, or would they

6 have been -- I mean, you were, after all, the commander of the hospital

7 and had enormous administrative tasks. To what extent were you involved

8 in the immediate medical activities?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hospital has two segments of

10 work. One is to make sure it has the necessary equipment and supplies.

11 And the other part is that you have professional staff who know their

12 jobs. So I was not dealing directly with patients. I was dealing with

13 the logistics, trying to ensure food for the patients and the staff

14 through donations and by other means. We also had problems with fuel,

15 with tyres for our vehicles, with money. So I was struggling to keep the

16 hospital afloat. Others were working directly with the patients. As I'm

17 quite a lively person by nature, I did visit the patients because I was

18 interested in them. But I did not work with them as a doctor until 1994,

19 when I devoted myself to pediatric surgery, and since then, of course, I

20 have been working with patients and I still do.

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, your time has

23 practically expired. You can ask one last question.

24 MR. LONGONE:

25 Q. Sir, let's focus on Exhibit P 05465. 05465. This is a letter

Page 37471

1 sent from the warden of the Heliodrom Stanko Bosic to your superior

2 Brigadier Ivan Bagaric. And if you see from 29 September 1993, sir, and

3 it concerns the work at your hospital because your work will be affected

4 by this one. And it says that it's informing about the difficulties and

5 problems encountered regarding the treatment of some severely wounded and

6 sick inmates due to inadequate accommodation and insufficient material

7 and medicaments at the Heliodrom. And he's asking -- asking Dr. Bagaric

8 to transfer the sick persons mentioned above and enable them to be

9 treated in the hospital due to the forthcoming visit of International Red

10 Cross committee; otherwise they will -- and in order to prevent them for

11 finding the sick in an inappropriate condition and treatment conditions

12 and consequently getting an unfavourable impression of the centre and

13 military prison, which would be detrimental for the HVO.

14 So, my question is: Sir, did you know that Muslim patients that

15 you were treating were wounded during forced labour or at the Heliodrom?

16 A. For the fifth time, you are trying to put a question to me about

17 something I don't know. I know that whenever anyone had to bring a

18 patient to hospital, they were able to do that from anywhere. But I

19 don't know about these circumstances. I never visited the Heliodrom in

20 my life, before or during or after the war. I have never been there. I

21 was in the hospital and I barely had time to deal with matters at the

22 hospital. I didn't have time to go home and see my children, let alone

23 look in on other people's business. I don't know what other people were

24 doing especially if their work had nothing to do with me.

25 My work started when the patient arrived at the hospital door.

Page 37472

1 It was a hospital and that's the way it operated. We never omitted to

2 respond. There were difficult days, that's true. We had to bury our

3 doctors, our technicians who got killed. That was life. At the hospital

4 we had 6 or 7.000 wounded, can you imagine that number, in circumstances

5 where the building was damaged, where we were short of staff, and you

6 keep asking me about a place I've never been to. You keep asking me

7 questions about things I don't know anything about. I'm sorry, but I

8 have to tell you that because I really don't know.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, your time is

10 up.

11 Witness, a sequel question as it were, this shouldn't raise any

12 problem with you. In this hospital which was filled with patients, well,

13 the international organisation such as the Red Cross or others, did they

14 come and see the patients whatever their origin, Croats, Muslim, Serbs,

15 did they come and visit them, were they allowed to enter freely in the

16 hospital? And did they have confidential conversations with the patient,

17 these representatives of these international organisations?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they did. They could do

19 whatever they liked. There was no porter at the door. The door was wide

20 open. And apart from them who often came, journalists also walked in.

21 There are thousands and thousands of metres of videotape filmed by

22 various TV crews. We had nothing to hide and we never tried to hide

23 anything. I'm proud of what the hospital did in the war.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, so if I have

25 understood you properly --

Page 37473

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely wide open.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So there were no

3 guards preventing people from entering, anybody could go into the

4 hospital and see who they wished, as long as they abided by visiting

5 hours; is that right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, anyone could enter our

7 hospital at any time, except at night when the patients were asleep.

8 When they came to see the patients, they would bring them something. The

9 hospital was operating under terrible conditions and, of course, people

10 were surprised at the conditions we were working in. Whoever wanted to

11 visit the hospital to visit the patients could always do so.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Ms. Nozica, do you

13 have any redirect questions?

14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Very

15 briefly. I know this is being taken from my time and I will be really

16 brief with this witness.

17 Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:

18 Q. Mr. Kvesic, I will put the document in e-court. It's P 05939.

19 Let me remind you, that's the protest you signed, as did Mr. Bagaric, and

20 it had to do with your lady doctor, Slavenka Travljanin, and her father.

21 You have the document on the screen. Tell me briefly, was whatever had

22 to be done pursuant to your protest actually done and do you have any

23 knowledge that -- are you aware that an investigation was started?

24 A. When the tragedy of Dr. Travljanin happened -- and I'm sorry when

25 the Prosecutor asked me about her father whom I had never seen and I said