090303ED

Page 37597

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

2 Witness, insofar as the Bench controls examination and

3 cross-examination, I would like to tell you that we want this to run as

4 smoothly as possible, and you were a little bit emotional yesterday. So

5 you are going to be put questions by the Prosecutor as part of the

6 cross-examination. This is usually a rather difficult time, because

7 rests on the Prosecution the burden of proof. The Prosecutor may put

8 leading questions to you and may challenge your credibility, so this can

9 be a difficult moment for you. This is something I wanted to tell you so

10 that you're not taken by surprise.

11 In addition, since you belong to the medical profession, wait

12 before you answer, breathe heavily if you need to, take in your breath if

13 you need to. I know that these can be very challenging and difficult

14 moments.

15 This is what I wanted to tell you. I hope you had a good rest

16 last night, and I hope you are able to start this cross-examination in

17 the best conditions.

18 I would like to greet you once again, and, Prosecutor, you have

19 the floor now.

20 MR. LAWS: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, and all

21 those in around the courtroom.

22 WITNESS: WITNESS 2D-AB [Resumed]

23 [The witness answered through interpreter]

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Laws:

25 Q. And good morning to you, sir. I want to ask you about what you

Page 37598

1 saw in the HVO detention camps that you visited. All right?

2 Yesterday --

3 A. I do apologise, but what I saw -- yes, right.

4 Q. What you saw, and what you heard there, and what you learnt about

5 the HVO detention camps. All right?

6 A. Can I ask you a question? The war is full of information,

7 misinformation, and what you hear doesn't mean that that was what

8 actually happened, so you can't talk about it unless you check it out.

9 Only then is your testimony valid and has any specific weight, because if

10 I were to tell you everything that I had heard about, well, I mean, I'd

11 be here for 500 years.

12 Q. We don't want that, sir, so we'll stick --

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, answer the questions

14 put to you by the Prosecutor. The Bench will assess the probative value

15 of your answers to the questions that are put to you.

16 Mr. Laws, you have the floor.

17 MR. LAWS: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. When you gave evidence to this Court in the Tuta Stela case, you

19 were asked a question by counsel representing one of the defendants, you

20 were asked if you could please tell the Court everything that you knew

21 about the Heliodrom, all right, and you replied that the Heliodrom was,

22 and I'm going to quote your words exactly:

23 "The Heliodrom was for me, personally, a very unpleasant

24 experience."

25 All right? And that's right, isn't it, it was a very unpleasant

Page 37599

1 experience for you to go into the Heliodrom?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And we saw yesterday that you became quite upset when you were

4 asked to remember the things that you had seen both there and elsewhere;

5 is that also right?

6 A. Yes. And can I ask you a question now?

7 Q. Well, that's not really how it works here, sir, no.

8 Just going back to what we have just been talking about, you

9 found it upsetting to recall what you saw, and I want, if I can, to try

10 to understand why that might be. All right? And I want to try, if

11 I can, to do that without upsetting you unnecessarily, but I need to ask

12 you what you saw and what it was like in those places. You understand

13 that?

14 A. Absolutely.

15 Q. Thank you. Can we start, please, with your first visit to the

16 Heliodrom, which you told the Court yesterday took place in mid-May of

17 1993?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In fact, I think I'm right in saying that we can do better than

20 that; that you told the Trial Chamber in Tuta Stela that you'd gone into

21 the Heliodrom on the 11th and 12th of May of 1993?

22 A. Yes, the middle of May.

23 Q. Thank you. You had been asked to go there because you had been

24 told that a large number of people had been detained?

25 A. Yes.

Page 37600

1 Q. And you had been asked to go there to help to ensure that their

2 detention didn't involve the outbreak of epidemics; yeah?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you got there, you saw that there were indeed a very large

5 number of people who had just been detained?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. People from Mostar?

8 A. I knew some of them.

9 Q. You knew some --

10 A. But the majority, I did not know.

11 Q. Of course, you would only know a proportion, but people from

12 Mostar who were suddenly in a detention centre?

13 A. Yes, and I have to add something to that. Your Honours, as a

14 doctor myself, I know people who come to hospital, so my -- the circle of

15 people that I know is far greater and doesn't only relate to Mostar, and

16 it's quite logical that I know the people of Mostar better because I was

17 born there and lived there, but I don't want you to understand that I

18 know only people from Mostar. I know people whom I treated, I know their

19 families, friends, so my circle of acquaintances is much, much larger.

20 Q. So you recognised more people than the average citizen might have

21 recognised in the Heliodrom on the 11th and the 12th of May; is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you ask them what was going on and why they were there?

25 A. Yes.

Page 37601

1 Q. Did they tell you?

2 A. Many of them did not know. Well, if I was there yesterday -- or,

3 rather, if I was stressed yesterday, I was under even greater stress

4 before, so you can imagine what the people who were there felt like.

5 Q. Well, you're comparing your stress yesterday, giving evidence

6 here, to the stress of the people who were imprisoned and didn't know the

7 reason on the 11th and 12th of May; is that what we're to understand,

8 sir?

9 A. What you need to understand is this: That as far as I'm

10 concerned, stress -- let me give you an example. I don't remember the

11 link at all when I was here and when my distinguished counsel asked --

12 when I asked her what the time was, she said, "February." And I said,

13 "Ms. Nozica, it can't have been February, because it was warm, the

14 weather was warm." So I tried to push that out of my mind. But you

15 cannot conclude that my stress was equal to their stress. Their stress

16 was enormous, much greater than my own stress. Now, if I, as a human

17 being, as a man of such and such an age, as an individual with a great

18 deal of education, as somebody who has travelled the world, experienced

19 stress, then I can only imagine how much greater their stress was, and

20 that it triggered a stress reaction where a large number of people cannot

21 remember things. But I was quite definite and certain that they weren't

22 there of their own free will.

23 Q. Well, thank you. I think we're not going to disagree about that

24 at all, and I'm going to ask you, if you can, to focus on the questions.

25 I know it's difficult. We accept that you've travelled the world and

Page 37602

1 that you're a very well-educated man. We take that for granted. All

2 right? I'm not asking you about your autobiography at the moment. I'm

3 asking you about conditions in the Heliodrom, and I understand you to be

4 saying that the people that you saw on the 11th and 12th of May were

5 unaware, many of them, why they were there, and as a result they were

6 highly distressed. Do I have that position accurately?

7 A. Yes, absolutely, you've understood that very well.

8 MR. LAWS: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a follow-up

10 question for you.

11 I listened to the questions of the Prosecutor very carefully, and

12 you have answered this question. You said that those people who were

13 there did not know why they had been detained, and it's very easy to

14 visualise the situation.

15 When you left the Heliodrom, did you tell your superiors, "I am

16 going to the prison, I am going to the Heliodrom. I have met people whom

17 I knew, and these people didn't know why they had been detained." Did

18 you tell that to your superiors, and if you did, what did they then tell

19 you?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, of course I did tell

21 them, and that was my duty. It was my duty to tell them. And when I

22 went down there, as you've already heard -- well, Dr. Bagaric told me to

23 go down there. And as far as I was concerned, as an individual dealing

24 with preventive medicine, any meeting, or rally, or collection of people

25 generally, refugees, displaced persons, or whatever, are places where

Page 37603

1 I -- where my duty would take me. But when I saw the situation there, I

2 understood, as a doctor, that people were under stress, that they were

3 afraid, and that many of them who knew me, and I was in uniform at the

4 time, they saw me as being someone from the other side, not as a doctor.

5 And I don't hold that against them. Later on, that changed, and I did go

6 up there, and I told them straight away: "As far as I'm concerned, I see

7 that as a prison. There are too many people in one place. We have to do

8 something about it because infectious diseases will break out." And when

9 I asked them why they were there - that was your question, was it not,

10 Your Honour? - then the answer that I was given, roughly, was that they

11 were there for security reasons, safety reasons.

12 And if you'll allow me to say, Your Honour, on the 9th of

13 September -- on the 9th of May, 1992, when that unfortunate conflict

14 began, I was in my flat. I didn't know about the conflict at all,

15 although I was a member, as you know, of the staff, and I came to the new

16 hospital which is at a distance of several kilometres. I went there by

17 car. I was in a police car, because the police station is across the

18 road from me and there was shooting all over the place. And I was told

19 that it was for these reasons, because the war had begun, because we had

20 been attacked by the Muslim armed forces, and that's why they were there,

21 for those reasons. So that's what I knew.

22 And as a former soldier, myself, or, rather, as a member of the

23 army, there might have been another example, like the 5th Column, but I

24 wasn't interested in that, as a doctor. All I was interested in was to

25 see what we could do to prevent an epidemic from breaking out.

Page 37604

1 So I go back to yesterday, and, please, I was the chief of the

2 Service for Preventive Medicine, that's all. All I was interested in was

3 how to prevent and stop infectious diseases from breaking out, or,

4 rather, if they did occur sporadically, to prevent them from becoming an

5 epidemic, so that was my prime concern. And I consider that in that

6 aspect -- or, rather, that was the work that I had to do, and I think

7 that my work had a humanitarian character in doing that.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Mr. Laws.

10 MR. LAWS: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Sir, that, if you'll forgive me for saying so, was a very long

12 answer. The question that you had been asked by the President of this

13 Trial Chamber was whether you told your superiors, and I think you

14 started by saying, yes, you told Dr. Bagaric what was going on at the

15 Heliodrom. Yes?

16 A. Well, listen, I have to explain the conditions so that Their

17 Honours can understand, because I'm in the hands of justice here.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues]... for a moment. We are going

19 to look at the conditions, I assure you, but I want to stick with one

20 question at a time and then we won't, I hope, become confused.

21 You were asked a question, and it's a question that I want to

22 repeat and give you a third opportunity to answer. Who did you tell?

23 You've said Dr. Bagaric. Who else did you tell about what you'd seen in

24 the Heliodrom that day?

25 A. I was in the Sector for Health, so the people who were in the

Page 37605

1 Health Sector. Yes, the Health Sector.

2 Q. So the people in the Health Sector of the Department of Defence?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. In later visits to the Heliodrom, did you also see

5 that there was a wide age range of detainees?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. If you look with me, please, at a document in the bundle in front

8 of you that's labelled P 05328, P 05328.

9 Perhaps if the usher might be prepared to lend some assistance.

10 I think you have it. Thank you.

11 A. Yes, I've found it.

12 Q. This is a document that is dated the 23rd of September of 1993,

13 and we can see that it's a list of detainees who were brought in to the

14 Heliodrom on the 21st of September of 1993. Can you see that?

15 A. Yes, I can.

16 Q. And we know, sir, that you went into the Heliodrom on the 30th of

17 September, some nine days after these detainees are recorded as having

18 arrived. All right?

19 A. Well, if you have a document stating that, then that is probably

20 the case.

21 Q. Well, we do. It's one of your reports, and we'll look at it in

22 due course, but it's dated the 30th of September. That's the day that

23 you went into the Heliodrom. All right?

24 If we just look at this list together, at number 5 we have a name

25 and a date of birth of the 2nd of April of 1980. Can you see that?

Page 37606

1 A. Yes, I can.

2 Q. So that individual would have been, I think, 13 in 1993. Is that

3 right?

4 A. Yes. But, please --

5 Q. Just bear with me for a moment, and I assure you, I'll give you a

6 chance to say what you want to say.

7 If you turn the page and look at the last name, number 36,

8 apparently born on the 5th of July of 1922, can you see that?

9 A. Yes, I can.

10 Q. That individual would have been 71 at the time that you went into

11 the Heliodrom on the 30th of September; all right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So just to try to get a picture of what you were experiencing in

14 the Heliodrom, in terms of the people who were there, before we look at

15 the conditions, just the people who were there, they were people who were

16 as young as 13 and as old as 71; is that right? Was that your

17 experience?

18 A. Let me make myself understood. This list was written by

19 Mr. Stanko Bozic. I don't know him [as interpreted], but I'm quite sure

20 that I saw people of different ages. For example, under number 27, "Omer

21 (Osman) Terzic," you'll see later on that he was involved with the

22 medical corps to work as a technician in the infirmary. So I saw this

23 large span, age span, but I'm disgusted when I see that somebody was 13

24 years old. That is terrible, impossible, but I didn't see anybody like

25 that. Had I seen somebody of that age, I would have recorded it straight

Page 37607

1 away and informed people straight away, because I'm a father myself and

2 know what that means.

3 Q. All right. I think the translation that I heard was that you

4 didn't know Stanko Bozic, but in fact you dealt with Stanko Bozic --

5 A. No, no, no. I did know him, I knew him very well, sir. I knew

6 him very well, Mr. Prosecutor, but I hadn't received -- I didn't receive

7 this list. I don't know whom this list is addressed to; not to me. The

8 Health Sector, maybe, but not to me.

9 Q. It may just be an error in the translation. Our translation

10 says:

11 "This list was written by Mr. Stanko Bozic. I don't know him,

12 but I'm quite sure ..."

13 I just wanted to clarify that. You knew who Stanko Bozic was,

14 didn't you?

15 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, in preparing this case, you probably

16 noticed, and I spoke about this yesterday and you were sitting down, so

17 you could have heard me say that the plan for my work was always uniform,

18 always the same, and that in the first part it would say who was present.

19 And you could have noticed that Mr. Bozic was always recorded as being

20 present, and it would have been a terrible lie to say that I did not know

21 the man, and I contacted him. Every time when I arrived at that

22 locality, I tried to find Mr. Bozic.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that she heard the

24 witness say, "No," so I was mistaken. Thank you.

25 MR. LAWS:

Page 37608

1 Q. You and I are not disagreeing. It was a mistake that happened in

2 the translation. There's nothing at all for you to worry about. I

3 wanted to clarify it so that the record is clear, because you knew Stanko

4 Bozic, and we both agreed about that. All right?

5 A. [In English] Okay.

6 Q. Thank you. Would you then turn, please, with me to another

7 report that we have, not written by you, but dealing with two of the same

8 detention centres.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before we move on to

10 another document: We have understood that you were an officer of the

11 JNA. This is what you told us. Yesterday, I understood that you had

12 some understanding of military affairs. When we see this document,

13 there's no shadow of a doubt that you were not the addressee of this

14 document, but on seeing this document, you see "Central Military Prison,"

15 and you see the name of a young person who is 13. This is an issue, in

16 military terms.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, terrible, just terrible. A

18 13-year-old child can't be a soldier. "Mr. Hasan [indiscernible], Music,

19 71," he can't be a soldier. Theoretically, he can work somewhere,

20 answering a telephone, for example, but nothing more than that.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as the case of 71 is

22 concerned, some people are 71 and still very busy. Maybe it's not so

23 easy for a person who is 71. Some people at 71 are judges, even. So at

24 71, you still have quite a lot of energy and have enough energy. But a

25 13-year-old, well, that's not the same, and his name shouldn't have been

Page 37609

1 on there.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, certainly.

3 MR. LAWS: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. The report I wanted to look at with you, sir, is -- in your

5 bundle, it's P 06729. I wonder if you'd find that for us, please. It's

6 further on in the bundle than the one you've just looked at, P 06729.

7 This is a report that we're going to look at --

8 A. What number did you say, 6?

9 Q. P 06729.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This is a report that we're going to look at a little bit in the

12 course of the morning. It's a report prepared by the Security and

13 Information Service of the Military Police Sector in relation to the work

14 of Gabela and the Heliodrom Detention Centres. Can you see that report?

15 A. Yes, inspection and supervision, yes, for Gabela and Heliodrom.

16 Q. And we're still on the topic, sir, to assist you, we're still on

17 the topic of who was in the Heliodrom, all right, before we look at what

18 was happening to them, who was actually there. Do you follow my

19 questions?

20 A. Yes, I am following.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. But this -- how can I have anything to do with SIS? The SIS

23 followed me. As a former JNA officer, I was under SIS supervision,

24 surveillance, and I don't see what I have to do with this particular SIS,

25 because I was under surveillance by SIS because I was the persona non

Page 37610

1 grata for a long time.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, it would be very helpful for the Court

3 if you would just answer the questions that are put to you and not go

4 into commentaries. The Prosecutor knows what he wants to elicit as

5 answers, and that's what the Court will hear. And you may feel that you

6 would like to talk lengthily about all kind of matters, but please

7 restrict yourself to answering the questions.

8 Thank you.

9 MR. LAWS: Thank you, Judge Trechsel.

10 Q. Could you turn, please -- in the English, it's page 5 of this

11 report, and it's a paragraph which is headed "The accommodation of

12 prisoners of war."

13 A. I don't have page 5.

14 Q. In the English, it's page 5, and I think that in the B/C/S it's

15 headed "page 2" at the top, and it's a paragraph at the bottom of that

16 page which I think is headed "The accommodation of prisoners of war." Do

17 you have that, sir?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Thank you. This is an inspection that takes place in November,

20 and I'm going to read you what this individual has recorded, and then I'm

21 going to ask you whether it fits in with your experience in the

22 Heliodrom. Do you follow me?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. "In the said facilities, there are 2.600 prisoners of war who are

25 of the same category as the prisoners of war in the previous shelter ..."

Page 37611

1 that's Gabela, we'll look at that in a moment, "... of the same category;

2 i.e., real prisoners of war have not been separated - members of the

3 BH Army have not been separated from civilians who have been brought 'for

4 various reasons.'"

5 And I think in both languages that's in inverted commas. All

6 right? Can you see that?

7 A. Yes, I can.

8 Q. And I want to stay on the topic of the people that you met both

9 in Heliodrom and in the other detention facilities. This report also

10 deals with who was in Gabela. All right? And if you turn back in the

11 report, it's the English page 3, and in the B/C/S it's the first page

12 with text on it before page 1, do you have that? That's it, back one.

13 A. "Command and control system in the shelter and security

14 measures"?

15 Q. It's the very first page that has text on it, and it's a heading

16 "Situation of prisoners of war." Can you see that?

17 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

18 Q. I'm going to read to you, you follow with me in the B/C/S, if you

19 would, what it says:

20 "There are about 300 POWs in each of the said facilities. There

21 are currently 1.268 prisoners of war. All prisoners of war are persons

22 of Muslim nationality, male, and there are some of them - I've not been

23 able to establish the figure precisely - who are under 18 and some who

24 are above 60 years of age."

25 Can you see that?

Page 37612

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. And if you turn the page, please, we'll read the next paragraph,

3 and then I'm going to pause and ask you if you can help us:

4 "In brief personal contacts with prisoners of war, the impression

5 is that many of them have been brought to the shelter from their homes,

6 street, or work-places, while the rest have been captured during combat

7 operations."

8 Do you see those observations by the author of this report?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You told the Judges yesterday that you, yourself, had sat with

11 the detainees in Gabela, that you had talked to them, and that you had

12 even shared their food. Did you form the same impression as the author

13 of this report about how they had come to be there?

14 A. More or less, yes.

15 Q. Thank you very much, sir. So people who had been, some of them,

16 taken from their homes, from the street, from their places of work, and

17 locked up?

18 A. Yes. Again, should I answer again? Yes, a part were arrested,

19 and as for these, I don't know if they were taken away for preventive

20 reasons from their homes, or from some other reasons, I'm not able to

21 know.

22 Q. Just as --

23 A. But in any case --

24 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not hear the last word

25 the witness said.

Page 37613

1 MR. LAWS:

2 Q. I think the interpreter wanted you to finish your sentence, and

3 I'm happy for you to do so, sir.

4 A. Very well. I'm sorry. I said as for those who were arrested in

5 combat, yes, that goes, but I was told that for some security reasons,

6 some people were brought in to that place, so this was for preventive

7 reasons and for reasons of potential retaliation. But regardless of

8 that, I condemned the act of taking people away from their home.

9 Q. You thought it was wrong at the time?

10 A. Yes, with one correction. If we're not talking about the people

11 who fired at me.

12 Q. Thank you. You met a range -- you, yourself, met a range of

13 different people in the various camps that you visited, didn't you,

14 people of different backgrounds, different walks of life?

15 A. Yes, but I would like to ask you to use the term "prison."

16 Q. We'll use the term "prison," of course, sir. In Dretelj, you met

17 a doctor. He gave evidence to this Trial Chamber. He had the pseudonym

18 DD, and he gave evidence that he had met you because he was discussing

19 his fear about a jaundice epidemic. Do you remember a conversation with

20 a doctor in Dretelj who was worried about jaundice?

21 A. First of all, I spoke with all the doctors. As for that doctor,

22 I don't know who that was.

23 Q. I'm not asking you about all the doctors at the moment. I'm

24 asking you about the doctor in Dretelj who was worried about a jaundice

25 epidemic. You don't remember him?

Page 37614

1 A. If I remember correctly, there were five doctors there, and I

2 spoke with all of them, so I don't know which one it was. But, sir,

3 I can tell you there was no jaundice. I said that yesterday, and thank

4 the Lord that in all the areas that I was in charge of, there was no

5 single epidemic of an infection disease. And I would have been glad to

6 hear someone say something like that, because that would mean that they

7 were helping me in my job.

8 Q. We're agreed there was no jaundice. That individual, DD, told

9 this Court that he was being fed on leftover food and that he lost 30

10 kilos in his body weight; a doctor, like you. Do you recall now meeting

11 somebody who was imprisoned and being fed badly so that they started to

12 lose weight?

13 A. Sir, I said yesterday that on the basis of the story not of this

14 colleague of mine, but that the average weight loss was ten and a half

15 kilos, according to what was said, I mean, we noted this yesterday, we

16 dealt with that topic.

17 Q. I'm asking you a very specific question, whether you recall

18 meeting this doctor who told this Court that he lost 30 kilos.

19 A. [In English] No.

20 Q. No, thank you. You met a dentist in Gabela. You noted in one of

21 your reports, and we can look at it if you wish, that the prisoner's

22 teeth were bad?

23 A. [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

24 Q. The prisoners had bad teeth, and there happened to be a dentist

25 locked up in Gabela, and you were suggesting that it might be an idea to

Page 37615

1 provide him with some dental equipment so that he could help to treat the

2 people with bad teeth; do you remember that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Bad teeth being a common side effect of malnutrition?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. When you're starving, you start to lose your teeth; that's right,

7 isn't it?

8 A. Sir, that means a deficiency in Vitamin C. A person can eat a

9 lot, but if the food is not of sufficient quality, then you can suffer

10 from scurvy. Why did sailors fall victim to scurvy? Because they had a

11 lack of Vitamin C. But let me say something else, there was no dentist's

12 chair in any of the barracks. No single HVO soldier had the opportunity

13 of being examined by a dentist. In the same way, in the town of Mostar,

14 I'm speaking about the town of Mostar, there was only one dentist who was

15 working in the medical centre, and he didn't have any equipment.

16 Q. Witness BQ, who gave evidence in this case, told the Trial

17 Chamber that he lost all of his teeth as a result of the food or lack of

18 food that he received in Dretelj, and you saw people there with very bad

19 teeth, didn't you?

20 A. [No verbal response]

21 Q. Thank you. And you also saw, did you not, that there were women

22 detained in the Heliodrom?

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, sir.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First let me answer.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: There was a "thank you." I don't know what he was

Page 37616

1 thanking the gentleman for, but the transcript does not indicate that

2 there was a response.

3 MR. LAWS: I'm so sorry. Mr. Karnavas is quite right. Thank

4 you, Mr. Karnavas.

5 Q. You nodded, and you're going to need to say, "Yes," if you want

6 to agree with the question.

7 A. No, no, I must answer that question, I must answer. This is not

8 a pantomime. You're asking me, and you are allowing me to nod my head,

9 but this is not something that I'm not permitting myself, mime. Anyway,

10 if you permit. If you have read, and I hope that you have read -- I

11 don't think that you have not read, and that you can see that in the

12 reports it is specifically clearly written that the food is sufficient in

13 quantity and quality. And it's sufficient, so -- the quantity was not

14 sufficient, so there wasn't a sufficient supply of vitamins. In any

15 case, it was an area affected by war, and if you read the reports, you

16 will see that the amount of humanitarian help was very small and that

17 both the refugees and the population was suffering from the same

18 difficulties.

19 Q. Well, you nod your head -- you're doing it now. Do it just as

20 you wish, but do answer the question with a "yes" or "no." Otherwise,

21 we'll get into that sort of confusion and Mr. Karnavas will have to help

22 us.

23 I asked you the question whether you saw people in Gabela who had

24 bad teeth, all right, and is the short answer to that, "Yes"?

25 A. Yes, but I must say I saw the same thing with a lot of soldiers

Page 37617

1 who had come from the country and who did not have sufficient hygienic --

2 hygiene habits. You cannot compare a soldier from The Hague or a soldier

3 from the country. Those soldiers who come from the villages don't have a

4 habit of brushing their teeth and their hygiene habits are lacking.

5 Q. All right. So just to summarise, you mentioned yesterday that

6 the doctors helping the detainees in Heliodrom were themselves detainees;

7 is that right? You gave us the name yesterday, Mr. Hadzic, who --

8 Dr. Hadzic, I shall call him, who was one of the Muslim doctors detained

9 in Heliodrom; yes?

10 A. [No verbal response]

11 Q. I'm afraid you're nodding your head just very slightly there. Is

12 the answer, "Yes"?

13 A. Well, I would like to ask you -- I'm not -- I'm asking you not to

14 look at me nod my head, but to listen to my answer. I am just listening

15 and nodding my head, but I think that it was a major thing that I did

16 find Dr. Hadzic, who was a prisoner, and that I transferred him to the

17 medical staff. He was my friend and colleague from the Vales Sports

18 Club, and he no longer had the status of a prisoner. Quite the contrary,

19 Dr. Hadzic went to town with a medical vehicle, and he would bring back

20 medical supplies to the prison.

21 Q. All right. In these camps, you saw doctors, at least one

22 dentist, children, old people, and you knew that there were women; yes?

23 A. If you allow me. As far as women are concerned, I have to go

24 back to the first testimony. I perhaps said at the time, because I was

25 under stress, that I did not see -- for me, it's a crime that a child,

Page 37618

1 anyone under 18, or above 60 to be there. I did not see any women. I

2 believe that any kind of harming of the health or any kind of insinuation

3 about women, I mean, I heard, I went, I was taken where they were

4 supposed to be, but I didn't find any. But I did tell my superiors, if

5 there are any, we need to do everything to remove those people from

6 there.

7 If you had read my reports, and you probably did, and I hope you

8 studied them carefully, that it says four medical commissions and other

9 commissions of -- so that people who are in vulnerable categories can be

10 freed.

11 Q. All right. You weren't in any doubt that there were women in

12 isolation? May I just finish this topic, and then I'll certainly give

13 way.

14 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no, colleague. I

15 would just like to object to a previous question very briefly.

16 I believe that the witness did not understand the question, and

17 I think that the Prosecutor would need to clarify and put it a bit

18 slower. We're jumping from one prison to another, and from what I have

19 been listening of the testimony of the witness and from my study of the

20 documents, I don't know how the Prosecutor can come to the plural, "Where

21 did you see women?" I think the Prosecutor would need to take each

22 prison case by case, "Did you see women in Heliodrom, in Gabela, in

23 Dretelj, in Ljubusko," for each of these cases. So I think now the

24 witness is quite confused and he doesn't know exactly which prison we are

25 talking about now. I think that this would be quite a useful thing to do

Page 37644

1 bundle. It's a very long exhibit. It's a transcript of the evidence

2 that you gave in the Naletilic case in Tuta Stela. All right?

3 A. [In English] I don't have this paper.

4 Q. Yes, you do. That's it in front of you.

5 A. I don't have this paper, please. No. In Croatian language, I

6 don't have this paper, please.

7 Q. You don't have an interpretation of it. I'm going to read to you

8 a part of it. Everybody will follow. And if I read it incorrectly,

9 someone will put me right. All right?

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. If you turn to page 14698 in the top right-hand corner, please,

12 can you see there are page numbers in the top right-hand corner, "14698"?

13 A. The text is in the English language.

14 Q. It's in the English language, but the numbers will help you.

15 14698, and I'm picking up at line 17.

16 You were being asked a question there by another Prosecutor in

17 the Tuta Stela case about a part of your report that we have, in fact,

18 already looked at today. It's part of your report of the 27th of

19 November, P 06924, and I'm not going to take us back to it now. But you

20 were asked this question:

21 "Witness, I have a few more questions on that last paragraph,

22 when it says: 'It was observed that the wards assigned to physical

23 labour were mostly of normal weight because of increased food.'"

24 And the Prosecutor then asked you this question:

25 "Did you know that wards were taken out for physical labour?"

Page 37645

1 That was the question that you were asked. Do you follow so far,

2 sir?

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what the witness

4 said.

5 MR. LAWS:

6 Q. Could you confirm that you follow my question so far, please, for

7 the interpreter?

8 A. [Interpretation] Yes, because I can hear it through the

9 interpreter, and I am following you as well.

10 Q. Thank you. I want to read what you said when you were asked that

11 question. You said, and it's line 23:

12 "I never saw that. I heard that some were taken. Personally, I

13 said to my colleague, 'Bozic,'" that's Stanko Bozic, isn't it, "'Bozic

14 tried to prevent this. It's a war crime.'"

15 Can you see the answer that you gave in the Tuta Stela case

16 there?

17 A. [In English] Yes.

18 Q. "I asked where these people were. I met some people. And maybe

19 for fear, or for other reasons, they told me they didn't go there."

20 And then you said this:

21 "Some kept quiet, and from that I understood that they were taken

22 there. What they did, I don't know, but later on I heard that they had

23 been digging trenches or what have you."

24 Now, I just want to pause there. You're describing there, are

25 you not, having heard that prisoners were being used for forced labour,

Page 37646

1 and, quite rightly, sharing your concerns on that topic with the warden

2 of the prison, Stanko Bozic; is that right?

3 A. [Interpretation] I heard, but I didn't see. This is a major

4 difference. And, definitely, just the knowledge, as you can see, that I

5 went -- and this is in answer to some of your previous questions to me.

6 I'm not a salon doctor. I'm a doctor who went to the front-lines, who

7 went among the prisoners. I went to ask. People were quiet. As a

8 person and as a man, I understood that they were quiet, because at that

9 point in time I was on the other side. If somebody was silent, I could

10 only assume, and that assumption would be enough to initiate some

11 reactions. And as for if I had ever seen, never.

12 Q. No, you make that clear, that you never saw it. But you were so

13 worried about the situation that you spoke to Stanko Bozic, the warden,

14 and informed him that it was a war crime and that he should try to

15 prevent it happening; yes?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you knew a deal about war crimes, because I think as you also

18 said yesterday, but mentioned in Tuta Stela, you had given lectures to

19 the military police on the Geneva Conventions, hadn't you?

20 A. Yes, from the aspect of special preventive medical protection.

21 We're probably not thinking along the same lines. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, I

22 work in preventive medicine, and I did carry the booklets that I had with

23 me, and I gave them, because as far as I'm concerned, any person is a

24 person. Without a prefix, they are a person. It doesn't matter. There

25 is no gender, no prefix. As -- if that person is ill, that is all that I

Page 37647

1 am taking into consideration.

2 Q. I understand that. Can we look on at what you said next in that

3 case. You said, and it's line 4 of the page that we were just on:

4 "At that moment, I didn't have any personal knowledge, but I

5 know -- I know that I told Dr. Bagaric that these people, if they

6 existed, if they were taken for labour, that they had to be protected,

7 because they were a product of a misunderstanding, and that was the worst

8 form of maltreatment and harassment. If you have to do something against

9 your better judgement, then that is the worst form of harassment."

10 Can I ask you, please, when and where you told your colleague,

11 Dr. Bagaric, about your fear that there may be forced labour within the

12 Heliodrom?

13 A. Not that it was going on, but that perhaps that it was going on.

14 It's different, if something is going on or could be going on, at least

15 it's in my language like that. English is something different. If you

16 noticed, sir, I went to see everyone, from the front-line to those who

17 were refugees. I was in the field. My first thing to do was to get to

18 know people.

19 Q. If you don't mind, I'm asking you about a conversation that you

20 had with Dr. Bagaric. I'm not asking you about other conversations at

21 the moment, and I'm entitled to ask you that question and to expect that

22 you will do your best to answer it. Do you follow me?

23 A. Of course.

24 Q. You said -- [Previous translation continues]... that you know,

25 you know that you told Dr. Bagaric that these people, if they existed,

Page 37648

1 they were taken for labour, that they had to be protected, and I want to

2 know from you, if you can help us, when you had that conversation with

3 Dr. Bagaric, and where you were when you had it, and any other details

4 that you can help us with. Do you follow the question?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues]... then please tell us about the

7 conversation with Dr. Bagaric.

8 A. I simply -- my first meeting could have been only in the Health

9 Sector, at our work-place. I said these are suspicions, and if there is

10 a suspicion, then we would need to react. We, and through our superior

11 institutions, we would need to overcome this. This is my first reaction.

12 Q. So when you -- when you told him of your fears, you believed that

13 you were in the Health Sector, in your work-place, and you discussed with

14 him how the problem could be overcome; is that right?

15 A. Yes, to overcome it, to find a potential solution that would be

16 acceptable.

17 Q. What was done, then, please, by you, by Dr. Bagaric, or by other

18 people within the Health Sector of the Defence Department, to get to the

19 truth of this issue of forced labour?

20 A. You probably do not remember, but yesterday it was said a number

21 of times, and it was accentuated yesterday a number of times, that we are

22 a consultative, advisory, educational organ, and we could only have

23 written something, passed it on to the superiors to correct this. If you

24 followed me yesterday and today, and especially yesterday, you could have

25 noticed that the number of addresses where we sent our reports was larger

Page 37649

1 because we, specifically the Health Sector, was not able to resolve this.

2 This exceeds our competence. But, for example, we could have - and that

3 was my duty and which does not absolve me - we could have prevented an

4 epidemic. And I believed that it was my great responsibility there. In

5 an overcrowded environment, you have an epidemic breakout very easily.

6 Q. You've made that position very clear to us about epidemics, but

7 I'm asking you very specifically about forced labour, and I'd like to

8 know from you, please, if a report on that topic was compiled by you and

9 sent to anybody.

10 A. A report, first of all, something was not seen. If something is

11 not seen, I cannot write about it, if I'm unable to bring myself to the

12 position of being an observer. So you saw yesterday that the number of

13 addresses where we sent this report had increased, and we sent it even to

14 the president of the republic. And probably, as you know, in this trial

15 a person with the establishment post such as my own was not able to write

16 to Mr. Stojic, but we did write to him. It should have gone to the

17 establishment subordination, where I am the fifth or the sixth link, but

18 evidently I did violate or exceed some of my authority in an attempt to

19 resolve these things.

20 Q. So you're -- can I be clear whether your evidence is that you

21 believe you did write to Mr. Stojic in order to tell him of your fears,

22 that there was forced labour in the Heliodrom, or is your evidence that

23 you did not write to Mr. Stojic in order to tell him of those fears?

24 A. It was written to everyone, and it says to whom, if you look at

25 it, if you look at the reports. You'll see that it went to Mr. Stojic,

Page 37650

1 and the Main Staff, and the president as well. And let me repeat, once

2 again, and I'm going to repeat this several more times, the medical

3 service, medical corps, in all the armed forces throughout the world, is

4 a professional body and a consultative body and working in the rear, and

5 the function of which is to provide medical care, prevention, and so on,

6 treatment, and providing material so that this can be carried out, and

7 you have that in all countries in the world.

8 Q. Thank you. The institution that you were going into was one in

9 which forced labour was taking place and detainees were being both killed

10 and wounded as a result of that forced labour on the front-line?

11 A. Never heard, never saw.

12 Q. Well, you were dealing with Stanko Bozic, and you said that you

13 had a conversation with him in which you said to him that he should try

14 to prevent it. Shall we just look, you and I, and see what Stanko Bozic

15 knew about the position immediately before your visit in September, what

16 Stanko Bozic knew. If you look with me --

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I just ask - excuse me, Mr. Laws - a

18 question that goes a bit back to what the witness has said a short while

19 ago.

20 Witness, you have said that you sent the report to everyone.

21 Which report were you speaking about? That was on page 54, lines 6 and

22 following.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in all the reports, if

24 they referred to prisons, you will be able to notice that the number of

25 reports is large. There are a lot of reports. That's number one.

Page 37651

1 Number two, if you notice that the same methodology of work and, three,

2 if you find that at the end, what can happen, and, number four, who it

3 was addressed to. So if you look at these reports chronologically, you

4 will see that the number of addressees is increased; that is to say, we

5 did not --

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. Witness, you are going a bit

7 astray.

8 The question was: There was this suspicion that you had, and you

9 admit that you had a suspicion, that prisoners were taken from detention

10 centres for forced labour, and you were asked did you report on this.

11 And you said, I sent the report to everyone. But which report referred

12 to this suspicion? That's my question. The rest, you say, I know very

13 well, I can see myself.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, I can't remember

15 exactly because there were so many reports, but I have to say, if you

16 will allow me to do so, Your Honour, that I have to clear this up.

17 When I testified the first time via videolink, I don't know why I

18 was there. I just saw one or two examples. I was absolutely unprepared,

19 and I don't remember the matter in hand at all. As a result, I got

20 vitiligo and high blood pressure because it was extreme stress for me.

21 So as a doctor myself, I tried to push that to the back of my memory, and

22 I really don't remember. I was prepared inadequately. I was taken like

23 a lamb to the slaughter, and not to this day do I know why that happened

24 to me, and I don't remember that. And I asked Ms. Nozica yesterday --

25 she asked me when I was taken prisoner, and she said February, and I

Page 37652

1 said, "Senka, but it was hot weather." So as a doctor, following Freud,

2 I'm trying to push that to the back of my consciousness, so I don't

3 remember.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but that was not

5 really the question.

6 Here, today, you have said that you had this suspicion. It was

7 only a suspicion; you haven't seen it. But you had this suspicion that

8 prisoners were taken from detention centres for forced labour. If that

9 really happened, you knew, and you told Ms. Bozic that would be a war

10 crime. And you have spoken about these worries to Dr. Bagaric. And then

11 you were asked, What happened then? Were the authorities informed of

12 this suspicion? And you said, I sent the report to everyone.

13 Now, perhaps I -- the whole answer was given by you, namely, that

14 you simply do not remember which report that was. Do you then remember

15 for sure that there was a report in which you stated these suspicions to

16 "everyone"?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I really

18 can't remember, but I personally -- as a former soldier, one thing is

19 certain, and I know that. If a superior talks to me, then what he says,

20 as far as I'm concerned, they're orders to me. Now, you can understand

21 that in one way or another. And I also know that if I, as --

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You have answered my question.

23 Please continue, Mr. Laws. I'm sorry for interrupting you.

24 MR. LAWS: No, I'm grateful for it.

25 Q. I was going to ask you to look with me, please, at some documents

Page 37653

1 that show us exactly what Stanko Bozic knew, the man that you were

2 discussing this topic with. And if you would look first, please, at

3 P 05324. All right? P 05324. Now, I make it clear to help you, sir.

4 I'm not suggesting that you have seen this document before, but it is

5 written by a man who you discussed this topic with, and I want to know

6 what -- I want to look at what he knew whilst he was having that

7 conversation with you. All right?

8 Can you see it's signed by Stanko Bozic, and it says that on the

9 21st of September of 1993, the order of the 3rd Brigade took over four

10 detainees for their work, and on the 22nd of September, "we were verbally

11 informed that a detainee, Azim (son of Ibro) Karadjuz, got killed due to

12 Muslim defence forces activities."

13 Can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And this is nine days before you went into that same institution.

16 If you turn on, please, two documents in your bundle, you'll have

17 P 05343, and this one is dated the 24th of September, and again it's

18 signed by Stanko Bozic, and again it's dealing with the death of

19 detainees who have been taken for work. This time they were handed over

20 for work to a military police officer in charge of their security, and

21 his name is given. And on the 24th of September, so a week before your

22 visit of the 30th, the prison were told that the two named individuals

23 there had been killed by Muslim defence force action. Can you see that?

24 Can you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 37654

1 Q. So the person that you were discussing the issue of forced labour

2 with appears to have known very well that there was a problem in the

3 prison and that people were being taken out and being killed; do you

4 agree?

5 A. First of all, I have to say that this is the first time that I

6 see these reports, and I don't bring myself into any correlation with

7 this, I see no correlation between me and this, and I reject that with

8 indignation, military police and all the rest of it. That's the first

9 point.

10 Number two, I did not hear that these people had been killed, and

11 there was talk of the fact that Mr. Bozic talked to me about forced

12 labour, not about killing, if he indeed did mention that. But let's

13 accept that he did, but that he talked about killing, I don't know,

14 because there's no theoretical chance of me having seen this report, not

15 even a theoretical chance.

16 Q. I made that very clear, with respect to you, in my question, that

17 you hadn't seen this report. Its significance is that the person that

18 you were discussing forced labour with knew exactly what the position

19 was, and I hope that that's not lost on you, sir.

20 The prison, the Heliodrom, was providing labourers in very, very

21 large numbers, including on the very day that you went there, the 30th of

22 September.

23 We don't have time to look at all of the documents that we have,

24 but if you'd look at P 05489, we can see that in a document headed the

25 30th of September, one of the days that you went into the Heliodrom, 15

Page 37655

1 detainees were authorised to be taken out of the prison to perform work.

2 Can you see that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And we're not going to turn them all up there. They're all in

5 the bundle, and for the record I can give the numbers of these documents,

6 but it will be a waste of our time to look at them. They all start "05,"

7 and we've looked at 489. We can look also at 493, it's in my bundle,

8 507, 508, 510, 511, 512, 514. Those are all documents which deal with

9 prisoners of war or detainees within the Heliodrom going out to perform

10 forced labour on the 30th of September.

11 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object,

12 because no mention is made in the document of either prisoners of war or

13 detainees. What the documents refer to that we've seen so far is

14 "detainees." The word used is "detainees."

15 MR. LAWS: "Detainees," yes, that's right.

16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Not prisoners of war or

17 prisoners, but "detainees" in absolutely all the reports. Thank you.

18 MR. LAWS: I will happily accept that correction.

19 Q. On the 30th of September, the documents that we have show that

20 many, many dozens of detainees, to use that word, were being taken out

21 from the Heliodrom, and it's the self-same day that you went to the

22 Heliodrom. And I want to ask you whether, going into that institution,

23 you were ever aware of people being taken for forced labour.

24 A. First of all, I have to say that I have absolutely nothing to do

25 with the sector of the defence of Mostar, nothing with these people here,

Page 37656

1 and I really didn't know about this, and I -- and this seems to be quite

2 up in the air, that I'm here being asked these questions.

3 I did my work as a doctor, I dealt with medicine, and I can swear

4 that I didn't see them. They could have gone at 7.00 and I might have

5 come in at 9.00. They could have left at 5.00 and I could have come in

6 at 1.00. So how can you link me with these people here? That is just

7 mobbing. I don't know this person, this head of sector, or anybody here,

8 so how do you bring me into correlation with this at all? I really don't

9 understand.

10 Q. Well, as I think I mentioned earlier, that the way this procedure

11 operates is that I don't have to answer your questions at this stage.

12 The Judges will decide. All right?

13 You were going into that prison. You had a suspicion. It so

14 happens that on that day many dozens of people were being taken to forced

15 labour, and in the week before, some people being taken to forced labour

16 had been killed. It's a fair question to ask you, don't you think,

17 whether you knew, going into that institution?

18 A. No, I absolutely did not know about that. What Bozic told me, I

19 said what should be done. Had I seen it, I would have put even greater

20 effort into having the things done.

21 Q. Very well. Would you look with me, please, at document P 05503,

22 your report of the 30th of September that we've looked at in another

23 context. Can you see, in the B/C/S, at the foot of the first page of

24 text, there are numbers 1, 2, and 3?

25 A. Yes.

Page 37657

1 Q. And if you turn over the page in the B/C/S, and it's still on

2 page 2 in the English, item number 4:

3 "Transfer the seriously ill and wounded to the Mostar HVO War

4 Hospital."

5 Can you see that?

6 A. Number 4, yes.

7 Q. Yes. You were keen that the sick and wounded in the Heliodrom

8 should be transferred to a hospital where they could receive appropriate

9 care; is that right?

10 A. No. No, that's a wrong interpretation. Seriously wounded and

11 seriously ill, there were none of those. Now, at the level of Heliodrom,

12 under number 3, to form an infirmary, so that is general medical care and

13 attention, but higher in quality. Now, people to be treated in hospital,

14 secondary treatment and tertiary treatment, the tertiary level of medical

15 treatment in hospital. So this was a committee made up of these people

16 listed above. It was of the -- of the Health Sector, and we certainly

17 didn't see -- at least I didn't see this, and that's why we say that an

18 infirmary should be set up and that any seriously sick or wounded persons

19 should be transported to hospital.

20 Yes, go ahead.

21 Q. Let me just try to help you, if I may. You're talking there

22 about the need for people who require hospital treatment to receive it,

23 and I want to --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I want to look with you at a letter written the very day before

Page 37658

1 your visit by Stanko Bozic, whom you saw on the 30th of September, and

2 see why -- why it might have been necessary to get those people to

3 hospital. And if you turn in the binder, please, to P 05465, I can help

4 you, sir, by saying, before you do, I hope, that this is not a document

5 you've seen before, it's not addressed to you, nobody is suggesting that

6 you know its contents, but it comes from Stanko Bozic to Brigadier

7 Dr. Ivan Bagaric, a gentleman with whom you said you had a conversation

8 about forced labour, and it is saying:

9 "I'm sending you this letter to inform you about the difficulties

10 and problems encountered regarding the treatment of some severely wounded

11 and sick inmates due to inadequate accommodation, insufficient material,

12 and medicaments. I would also like to ask you to transfer the sick

13 persons mentioned above and enable them to be treated in a hospital."

14 And it goes on to say:

15 "The forthcoming visit of the International Red Cross Committee

16 is yet another reason for the transfer, as it would prevent them from

17 finding the sick in inappropriate accommodation and treatment conditions

18 and consequently getting an unfavorable impression of the Heliodrom,

19 which would be detrimental for the HVO and the Croatian people in

20 general."

21 That's the day before your report is saying "transfer the

22 seriously ill and wounded to hospital." Can you see that?

23 A. Yes, I can.

24 Q. And no doubt when you met Stanko Bozic on the 30th of September,

25 he impressed upon you his view that these people, who were too ill to be

Page 37659

1 in the Heliodrom, had to be moved out before the Red Cross came?

2 A. Do you want my answer?

3 Q. Yes, please.

4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the 14th of August, and I remember it well - you

5 can look for it - Mr. Bagaric sent in an instruction where it states what

6 everybody should do, in exact terms. Among other things, the 3rd

7 Brigade -- the Medical Corps of the 3rd Brigade, that is, and the warden,

8 should have all the seriously sick people who need specialised

9 military -- medical assistance should be transferred to hospital in motor

10 vehicles belonging to the brigade, the medical corps ambulance, and, if

11 necessary, to the War Hospital as well, and this instruction was given a

12 month and a half, I believe, before this. So --

13 Q. Let me try --

14 A. Have you found that instruction?

15 Q. Let me try to interrupt, if I may, before we talk in too much

16 detail about the 3rd Brigade and ambulances.

17 I think you and I might agree that there were people in the

18 Heliodrom who badly needed to go to hospital, who were not being taken to

19 hospital in September, and that action had to be taken. You and I can

20 agree about that, I think, can't we?

21 A. That, yes, we can.

22 Q. And if we just look back at your report, 5503, which is the one

23 that insists or recommends that there be a transfer of the seriously ill

24 and wounded people, we can see, on page 3 of the English and on page 2 of

25 the B/C/S, that the people who are being sent copies of this report

Page 37660

1 include Mate Boban; Bruno Stojic, personally; it says - yes - Zarko Tole;

2 your senior, Dr. Ivan Bagaric, personally; and the officer for prisoner

3 exchange, Mr. Brko Pusic. Can you see that?

4 A. Yes, I can, yes.

5 Q. And item 7 on the same report, it's a little bit further up the

6 page in the B/C/S and at the very top of the page in English, it says

7 this: that you want to be informed -- you want the Defence Department

8 Healthcare Sector to be informed on the undertaking of the above measures

9 by midday on the 1st of October, and you give a fax number for them to

10 communicate whether they have complied with your instructions. Do you

11 follow?

12 A. Yes, I have this attached to it.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I've just had a look at this. Item 5, at least

15 in the document that I have -- I don't know what documents I have

16 anymore. P 05503, under point 5, this commission states:

17 "... organisation of clearing up the surroundings and the

18 interior of the centre."

19 Now, whether it's Bagaric, or Bruno Stojic, or whoever to

20 react --

21 Q. I've not asked you a single question about organising the

22 perimeter or cleaning anything. I'm dealing with ill people who need to

23 go to hospital, and you know that full well. And if I may, respectfully,

24 ask you to stick with the topic. I'm going to ask you to turn to your

25 report, which is in our bundle at P 06924. 06924.

Page 37661

1 In September, people needed to go to hospital, and I want to see

2 what the position was in November and whether it had got any better. And

3 we looked at this document in a slightly different context earlier today,

4 and we clarified that the list of people at the foot of page 3, when

5 Judge Antonetti was asking you questions, those are all people who were

6 detained. All right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And it's a long list of people who have no place whatsoever in a

9 prison, do they?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Eighteen mentally-ill people; people who have suffered heart

12 attacks; people with grade L myasthenia, a muscular weakness;

13 osteomyelitis, I think is a bone infection. Over the page, 55 people

14 recovering from wounds, in a setting completely unsuited for their care.

15 That's the truth, isn't it?

16 A. Mr. Prosecutor, if you look at what it says underneath that, this

17 is what it says: that this list was compiled by doctors who worked there,

18 specifically Muslims. And then if you look at the list, you have some

19 ludicrous medical things there. There is a correction of sight. I mean,

20 who doesn't need to have their sight corrected? But I accept the list --

21 accepted the list, and it went further on, it was sent further on so that

22 we could help.

23 Now, if we were to look at -- for a list in February, then you'll

24 see the situation. And thanks to the pressure from us and all the things

25 that we wrote, the situation did improve. So my conclusion would be that

Page 37662

1 the people here -- it's like this: Anybody who said anything, whatever

2 they said would be recorded. If somebody said they were slightly deaf,

3 that would be recorded. That's not an illness, being slightly deaf,

4 impaired hearing, but we'd write it down anyway. And I think I said that

5 sometimes I hypertrophied or, rather, inflated.

6 Q. Yes, you said that. Thank you. But the true position was that

7 although you had correctly identified the problem in September and had

8 asked that urgent action be taken, for whatever reason, come November,

9 people who should have been in hospital were still in the Heliodrom, and

10 it is as simple as that, isn't it, Doctor?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Again, I think we're not disagreeing, you

13 and I, over very much of this.

14 Can I ask you, please, to look at something with me in one of

15 your reports. 05503 is your report for the Heliodrom in September.

16 05503.

17 A. It is the commission's report, not mine.

18 Q. You're one member of a commission of three; is that the point

19 that you want us to understand?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Can you help us, please. At the very top of the document, we

22 have a list of features that have been established by the inspection, and

23 the inspection established, number 1:

24 "On entering the centre, we were not challenged; nor were our

25 papers checked by authorised persons."

Page 37663

1 Can you see that?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. And number 2:

4 "The number of men physically securing the centre is inadequate."

5 Can you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the centre surroundings and the centre itself are untidy and

8 neglected; can you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can I ask you --

11 A. Yes, yes, yes.

12 Q. -- why you, as a doctor, and as you told us yesterday, only

13 concerned with the well being of the detainees, why is security now

14 something that makes an appearance in your report?

15 A. Of course. Because of the safety and security of these people.

16 Security was a question for me. There were numerous extremists, people

17 who for this or that reason had lost someone, or they were in prison, and

18 we were personally afraid. If we can go in just like that, anyone else

19 can go in, they can do whatever unpleasantness they like. They can also

20 bring in biological agents. And I believe that in prisons anywhere in

21 the world, there should be security, and there evidently was no adequate

22 security here. I mean, we can compare. In regular circumstances, I

23 would be stopped, never mind in wartime situation. And as far as I'm

24 concerned, regarding the situation of the prisoners and the security, the

25 commander of the 3rd Brigade should have been punished for this.

Page 37664

1 Q. What was damaging the health and well-being of the people in the

2 Heliodrom was the fact that they were locked in, not that they needed

3 more guards; that's the truth, isn't it?

4 A. Partially true. They were detained for such and such reasons,

5 and the guards were supposed to prevent, as Lenin said, the fools in our

6 ranks from doing some harm to them. That was supposed to be the general

7 idea.

8 Q. All right. I want to ask you some questions about Dretelj,

9 please, which is a prison to which you went on these three days in August

10 of 1993, according to your report, and I want to get the dates clear with

11 you. It's the 17th of August, the 18th of August, and the 26th of

12 August. On those three days, you went to Dretelj; yes?

13 A. I don't know if I have the transcript. Can I have the report or

14 something? If you allow me, this was 15 years ago. I don't know.

15 Q. It's 2D 00278, and you will find there the days that I have just

16 given you for the visits that you made to the Dretelj prison, using the

17 word that you prefer.

18 A. Thank you for that, thank you.

19 Q. You're very welcome. I want to show you some pictures, please,

20 that were taken on or about the 28th of August, 1993. They are pictures

21 of people who had been released from Dretelj on or about the 28th of

22 August of 1993, and they are an exhibit in this case. They have Exhibit

23 number 04588, and I believe that they are on e-court, and I'd like to

24 look at some of them with you, please.

25 If we could -- that's number 1. If we could just move through to

Page 37665

1 number 2. Number 3. Number 4. Number 5. Number 6. Number 7, please.

2 Number 8. Number 9. And number 10. We don't have time to do all 93.

3 You were in that camp, Dretelj, that those men -- some of those

4 men came from days before these photographs were taken, sir. Did you see

5 the people who were suffering in that way?

6 A. I didn't see them. But I see number 96. That is my first

7 neighbour. I definitely did not see this, and this is horrible. I saw

8 some other images when they were coming from the left bank, but this does

9 not justify anybody doing something like that, especially us, from what

10 we did in Dretelj. I'm not looking at what the other side did. I'm only

11 looking at what we did. But this is my neighbour, and I still see him

12 today. I absolutely condemn that.

13 On the other hand, the --

14 Q. Let me make it clear. The gentleman that we still have on the

15 screen in the photograph ending "96" was a neighbour of yours who we can

16 see --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- has been reduced to -- what would you use to describe his

19 condition? A pitiable figure; is that fair?

20 A. [No interpretation]

21 Q. And you, sir, said --

22 A. [In English] Cachexia, cachexia.

23 Q. The translation I'm getting is the same word that you're saying,

24 so it may be that there's a problem.

25 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 37666

1 Q. A pitiable figure, and I think you were saying that what happened

2 in Dretelj was something about which you were ashamed. Is that right?

3 A. Of course. Any normal person would be ashamed of that cachexia.

4 Let me explain. It's a medical term. I don't know your legal language.

5 It's malnutrition, excessive thinness, the Biafra syndrome, people who

6 are very immunologically run down, who can be overcome by any illness.

7 Q. Thank you, I understand.

8 A. In any case, I would like to say again that I did not see these

9 people.

10 Q. Well, you were in the camp the week before, and we're going to

11 look at your report, which we've just turned up, 2D 00278. You're

12 talking there about making sure that the food's prepared properly and

13 that things are clean, and the chlorine's in the water and, over the

14 page, that ambulances are equipped, and that people who are in need of

15 emergency medical specialist aid are given it. There's not a line there

16 about the people in Dretelj are starving to death, is there?

17 A. [No interpretation]

18 Q. Is there?

19 A. I told you, I didn't see them. What I don't see does not exist

20 for me. What I see, I write. I can suspect that something exists. In

21 any case, sir, Mr. Prosecutor, you can look who this was addressed to.

22 It was sent to the Office of the President of the HZ-HB. In normal army

23 structure, a person who is 15 hierarchal steps below is unable to send

24 anything higher up.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues]... telling us about that again.

Page 37667

1 I think I only have a few minutes remaining. SO we have that on the

2 transcript. Thank you. I want to ask you just a few more questions, if

3 I may.

4 The conditions in Dretelj you told --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I remember these

6 photographs because we have already seen these photographs in the

7 presence of other witnesses. You are a doctor, and you saw what their

8 condition was. On the 28th of August, you prepare a report, and you say

9 that after having conducted an investigation on the 17th, 18th, and 26th

10 of August, you offer a number of solutions. But the state of health of

11 these people was such that, normally speaking, you should have clearly

12 mentioned the fact that they were so thin and that they required

13 treatment. Nothing is mentioned about this in the document.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not see those

15 people. I went there where the commander sent me. If it was Dretelj, it

16 was Dretelj. If it was Gabela, it was Gabela. It was Heliodrom,

17 Heliodrom. That's where I went. I didn't see that. But I'm saying this

18 is disgusting. It's horrible to see, it's terrible. I condemn this,

19 regardless of the fact that they were in Dretelj, regardless of where

20 they were. This is something to be condemned. People like this are in

21 need of urgent medical help.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour. Microphone,

23 please.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like us to look at the

25 second photograph again, please.

Page 37668

1 Doctor, when you see a person looking like this, from a medical

2 point of view, what do you have to say about him?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Terrible conclusions. These people

4 were brought to the brink of desperation, physically and mentally.

5 Physically, it's evident, but I believe in the -- in the terms of their

6 mental state, it must be even worse. This is disgusting. I don't know

7 what to say. These people would need to be placed urgently in hospital,

8 and they would need to be given quite aggressive treatment to be saved.

9 We always wrote about that, "increase quantities and qualities of

10 food." I would be a criminal if I didn't say something like that.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, this person,

12 for instance, you didn't see him in that condition, did you?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, never. I went where I

14 was taken. Where I was taken, the situation was not like this. What I

15 saw was what I wrote. Again, I note each of my reports says where, what,

16 how, but each of my reports placed me in a kind of danger from the

17 extremist forces. I was followed by the SIS, as an ex-soldier. This is

18 terrible. This is something that you can only see in Africa. This is a

19 monster and a criminal, whoever can do that. Even if he was my brother,

20 he would still be a monster and a criminal.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Laws, you have two minutes

22 left.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. I'm taking some time, which will not be to

24 your credit.

25 Witness, I hope you can -- you can explain something, because I

Page 37669

1 see that you were, during three days, August 18th -- 17th, 18th, and

2 26th, you say you conducted an investigation. Now, I can hardly imagine

3 that you conduct such investigation without contacts with inmates, the

4 very persons you were called to protect, as you have said several times.

5 Now, how can it be explained that you didn't see any of the rather many

6 that we have seen on the pictures? You have said you went where you were

7 taken. Does that mean that it was the wardens of the prison who

8 determined where you went and what you saw?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Generally, yes. But I asked, if

10 you remember in the case of Gabela yesterday, that I entered the hangar

11 among the people, I closed the door, and I tried to find out as much as

12 possible. But I am telling you also, Your Honour Judge Trechsel, that

13 thanks to persistent reporting and touring, I did manage to form an

14 infirmary and a medical station to these people. I didn't -- I wasn't

15 able to see something that wasn't -- that I wasn't shown.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Let's not be led astray. I'm sure you are aware

17 that if you visit -- if you want to seriously visit a prison, the first

18 rule is that you determine what and whom and where you want to see

19 something. But it seems that you felt not free in this respect, but

20 were, yourself, scared of -- I put it a bit bluntly, that you were scared

21 of finding out an unpleasant truth, because you thought you had SIS in

22 your back and it might have negative consequences for you, personally, if

23 you reported an unpleasant truth. Is that a misinterpretation?

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am afraid I really

25 need to object to this manner of question. This is really a construction

Page 37670

1 that I believe is impermissible, so I object to this manner of

2 questioning, because I believe that regardless of what the witness talked

3 about, he's clearly stated and -- sufficiently clearly stated why he was

4 the subject of SIS surveillance; because he was a member of the JNA, not

5 because he worked -- he did his job. So I think this manner of

6 constructing a question, as far as I am concerned, would be something

7 that is impermissible.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, I'm going to answer,

9 Your Honour. I believe that I should answer this question.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. And in the meanwhile, Ms. Nozica is

11 invited to look at page 72, lines 19 to 24 or to 23, because that's what

12 I -- that's the foundation for my question. The witness said: "I note

13 each of my report, I was followed by the SIS as an ex-soldier."

14 Yes, Ms. Nozica, Mr. Karnavas, someone else.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Judge Trechsel, if I may, Judge Trechsel, I did

16 hear the gentleman indicate that he believed he was followed by SIS.

17 However, your construction of what you believe he said --

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: No, I made a hypothesis. I did not say I

19 believed he said something. I'm trying to understand, Mr. Karnavas.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. So, well, because the way I understood his

21 testimony was not that he was willfully trying to be blind to incidents.

22 You know, that's what it appears your hypothesis is. But the gentleman

23 indicated he's willing to answer the question, and I think we should

24 allow him to answer the question. But I don't -- if your understanding

25 is that's what he said, you know, I would disagree, but if that is a

Page 37671

1 hypothesis, then obviously you're entitled to put the hypothesis there.

2 You're putting it to the witness, so --

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That's exactly what it is, and absolutely

4 nothing else. I'm just trying to find out. I have a personal experience

5 in visiting prisons, many prisons.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And I know what one does. Now, the witness has

8 not done this, apparently, and I would like him to explain. That's all.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not trying to be confrontational.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And I'm sorry if I have upset you, Ms. Nozica.

11 That was not my intention, perhaps I have not been careful.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, one moment, please.

13 I don't agree with what you said a while ago, for the following reason:

14 The Judges are like doctors, we try to get to the truth, and sometimes we

15 grope around. When a doctor is faced with a patient who is coughing, he

16 may imagine that the patient is suffering from influenza, from

17 tuberculosis, from a lung tumor or an infection or something else.

18 Therefore, the physician must put questions to understand what the

19 patient is suffering from. Well, the Judges do the same. They make

20 assumptions and try to get to the truth.

21 We are faced here with someone who has seen or who hasn't seen

22 the prisoners, and we try to understand why he did not see any prisoners.

23 An assumption is made, maybe he didn't see the prisoners because he may

24 have been exposed if he had taken this too far. This is a valid question

25 for a competent judge.

Page 37672

1 Your objection, therefore, is lacks foundation and lacks sense.

2 Why did the witness not go and see the prisoners? And the Judges don't

3 understand why it is that if he saw the prisoners, some prisoners were

4 [indiscernible]. This is in the interest of your client that we're

5 trying to understand. There is nothing worse than Judges who don't put

6 any questions.

7 This is what I wanted to tell you, Ms. Nozica.

8 Witness, can you answer this question put to you by my colleague?

9 I agree 100 per cent with what he said.

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let him answer the question,

12 and then you can talk afterwards. Let your witness answer the question.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- thank you,

14 Judge Antonetti, for the explanation.

15 First of all, I can see that you have dealt with the subject well

16 and you have read the reports. Often, I wrote a lot of ugly things. Had

17 I been afraid, I would not have written down any of them. All of my

18 reports mostly had negative connotations and would not be written by

19 somebody who is afraid. I knew I was being followed by the SIS, I was

20 told that, but I wrote from my conscience. I am a doctor. Just like you

21 are a judge, I am a doctor by conviction.

22 Number 2, I knew that I should be looking for this, this, and

23 that. I don't know the localities. They went to different places. They

24 took me there. The first thing was for me to see, physically. It's

25 true, the doctor should take a diagnosis, a history of illness, and

Page 37673

1 that's what I did. I saw all sorts of people in front of me, and

2 specifically there are reports that I made efforts and that there was a

3 kitchen in Dretelj where the wards were working, which was my personal

4 doing.

5 If necessary, I'm going to repeat a million times, Your Honours,

6 I did not see these people, and I am horrified by these photographs. And

7 if there is a fault within me, I accept that, but I didn't see them.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not have any

9 problem with the question in the way that you put it. I remain by my

10 objection. I believe that - this is my objection - that a Judge cannot

11 put a hypothesis that would include a leading question, a suggestive

12 question. If you wish to ask this witness, "Were you afraid of someone

13 and did you write down all that you saw," that is quite all right for me.

14 I believe that the question, the way His Honour Judge Trechsel put it,

15 was a leading question, in my view, full of constructs, suggesting to the

16 witness that he was not doing his job because he was afraid of something.

17 And I still believe that these questions are impermissible. The way in

18 which you interpreted it, Judge Antonetti, is quite acceptable, as far as

19 I'm concerned, and the witness has answered the question in its entirety.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 Witness, you have explained to us that you didn't see them.

22 Fine.

23 Mr. Laws.

24 MR. LAWS:

25 Q. May I end, please, sir, in the way that you and I began, that you

Page 37674

1 said that it was a very unpleasant life experience for you to go into the

2 Heliodrom, and does the same apply for your visits to Gabela, to Dretelj,

3 and to the other detention camps, or "prisons," as you prefer, that the

4 HVO were running?

5 A. It's a traumatising experience for me, when I found expelled

6 people in the Students' Hall, children of three to four months, who were

7 being breast-fed. All this is very traumatic. I think that us doctors

8 also who went through the war also suffered suffer from PTSD as a result

9 of that. So the negative experiences do not only have to do with camps,

10 prisoners and so on, but also for places where there were refugees. It

11 was a horrible thing. They were in their bare feet, with ripped clothes,

12 arriving with bleeding feet, women with small children. This is

13 something that I saw in Kupres.

14 Q. All right. If anybody wants to ask you about Kupres, they can do

15 that. I'm asking you about camps, and I don't think there's any

16 disagreement between you and I. What you saw in those HVO prisons

17 appalled you, didn't it?

18 A. Yes, but we must broaden it. Other things are awful, too. We

19 cannot selective, we cannot pick selective questions. For me, it's

20 horrible to see expelled people in one place, bleeding women, and

21 three-month-old babies who are crying. Perhaps that can be an even

22 greater trauma, but prison is also a trauma, for sure, sir.

23 Q. In some regards, we can be selective, because we can deal with

24 one topic at a time. The topic that I have been asking you about so far

25 is prisons, and I think you agree with me that what you saw in the HVO

Page 37675

1 prisons appalled you and has left you to this day likely to start to cry

2 when you recall what you saw; that's the position, isn't it?

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, at this point I'm going to object --

4 MR. LAWS: But I'm going to ask that the witness be allowed to

5 answer the question.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object because we're not in front of

7 a jury.

8 MR. LAWS: No.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: I can see if we we're in the Old Bailey, where

10 we're trying to evoke emotion in front of the jury --

11 MR. LAWS: I'm not trying to evoke emotion. I'm trying to ask

12 the witness a question which he's perfectly capable of answering.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm entitled to make my record, sir. Kindly --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You forget something. You were

15 not here yesterday. Yesterday, the witness displayed some considerable

16 emotion. Therefore, the Prosecutor's question is to be seen in that

17 context. And so if you were not present, you may not know everything.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not suggesting that I know everything. I do

19 know one thing, though; that the gentleman has said today, at least 50

20 times, how he was appalled, how he was horrified, and so on and so forth.

21 How many more times do we need to hear it, especially were I'm being told

22 repeatedly that I'm in front of professional judges, not an Iowa jury or

23 not an Arkansas jury?

24 MR. LAWS: I'm summarising the position as this witness saw it in

25 the camps that he went to. He's capable of answering the question, and

Page 37676

1 there's no proper objection to it at all. I'd invite the Court to direct

2 that he answers it. I think he wants to answer it.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I'm going to repeat the

4 same. It's appalling and disgusting to me to see refugees, in the same

5 way that it's appalling and disgusting to see a prison. There is no

6 difference. These are people in misery who need material and

7 psychological support.

8 Sir, if you are making a difference between refugees and these

9 others, sir, then you surprise me. You surprise me as a lawyer, as a

10 person who works here, who sits there. You have really surprised me,

11 sir.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor has just

13 completed his cross-examination.

14 Ms. Nozica, do you have any redirect?

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes. Regardless, I'll ask the

16 witness to calm down. If he needs to drink some water or needs to take a

17 break, I think -- anyway, I think it would be a good idea to take a break

18 at this point, because I see that the witness is very upset. And all I

19 need is 10 to 15 minutes.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you do with a break,

21 Witness?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, just go ahead. Just go

23 ahead.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't feel

25 comfortable, questioning the witness after that reaction. I don't feel

Page 37677

1 comfortable with it. And if the witness begins to have a flood of

2 emotion, his floodgates of emotion break through during my questioning, I

3 don't want to experience that. So, if possible, I'd like us to take a

4 short break, and I don't have many questions to ask.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, let's have a 20-minute

6 break.

7 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

10 Ms. Nozica, you may proceed.

11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:

13 Q. Witness, I haven't prepared the documents, and I'm going to put

14 several to you, but I think that you can find it on e-court, on your

15 screen, so let's look at P 4186 now, please, which is a document that the

16 Prosecutor showed you, and it will come up on e-court so you'll be able

17 to see it on your screen. It is in the Prosecution binder, but as I can

18 say -- as I said, you can follow it on the screen.

19 So this is a letter dated the 14th of August, and you said that

20 you don't know whether Mr. Stojic received it. And it talks about food

21 for these 2.100 detainees.

22 Now, the Prosecutor put it to you that you could have known about

23 this situation on the basis of document 2D 917, so can we have that

24 document put up now - 2D 917 is the number - which is your own report

25 dated the 6th of August. That is eight days before the other one. It is

Page 37678

1 from the Heliodrom locality. Can we take a look at the second page of

2 that document, which is also on page 2 of the English version. At the

3 very top of that page, at the top of page 2, you can see the date, first

4 of all, and then at the top, in the Croatian version, I think it is

5 paragraph 4 of the English text, where the Central Investigatory Prison

6 is talked about, and they say that the detainees get their food from the

7 central kitchen.

8 And my question to you is this, Witness: Doing your visit, did

9 Mr. Bozic tell you anything about the problems of the central kitchen and

10 that it was not able to supply food to all the detainees and prisoners in

11 Heliodrom?

12 A. Had Mr. Bozic said anything, then rest assured that it would have

13 been written down, and I would have tried to solve the problem at least

14 in that way.

15 Q. Witness, during the examination-in-chief, I asked you something

16 about this next subject that I'd like to address, and you said something

17 about it in cross-examination, what the food that the HVO ate, was like,

18 what they received. And in response to a question from the Prosecutor,

19 you said that the members of the HVO, after eating the food in Heliodrom

20 from the central kitchen, that they could also eat food at home. Now,

21 I'm not going to ask you what food you had at home, but I would like to

22 ask you to explain to the Trial Chamber the circumstances and conditions

23 under which the members of the HVO lived, by and large, at least the ones

24 that you came into contact with; that is to say, those who were not put

25 up in barracks, or those who were, but generally where the people were

Page 37679

1 who were not put up in the barracks, because you visited the front-lines.

2 So tell us under what conditions they lived under and what food they ate,

3 what kind of food they had.

4 A. In principle, we must distinguish between two categories of

5 soldiers here. The first category are domicile soldiers, as we referred

6 to them, that is to say, locals who lived there, who had their homes

7 there, and where they never had a food shortage. But there was another

8 category and a larger category --

9 Q. Just be precise. You said they had their homes, their houses,

10 and as far as I understood you, did you say they had less food?

11 A. No. There were two categories. One was domicile soldiers, and

12 the second category was soldiers who had become activated when they

13 arrived in Mostar, having been -- having come from elsewhere. So this

14 other category of people who had been expelled from the places they had

15 lived beforehand had collective accommodation, and their situation was

16 very bad. They had very little food, and unfortunately among them there

17 were many people who later on imbued alcohol. And I personally think

18 that their food was very bad, and not only for them, but the supply to

19 their families too. And the second category were the category of people

20 who lived there, if they lived around Citluk, Hamzici, Siroki Brijeg,

21 Tucanovici [phoen], those places, they had better living conditions. So

22 that was the situation, two categories.

23 Q. I'm asking you about the people who lived in Mostar. Were there

24 enough collective centres in Mostar to accommodate them, people who had

25 been expelled or arrived as displaced persons or refugees, to live in

Page 37680

1 those centres with their relations?

2 A. Yes, there were centres of that kind, and the conditions there

3 were indeed very poor, because there was a food shortage, there was very

4 little food, and you must understand the situation. And with the influx

5 of expelled persons into Mostar, the food storages had either -- had been

6 depleted because they'd either been looted or whatever. I said that

7 there was very little water, too, and that you had a lot of people in

8 different ages in one place suddenly. There were many pregnant women, a

9 lot of elderly persons, and there was generally very little food, and not

10 only very little food for them but also for the domicile population, if

11 we're all referring to Mostar.

12 Q. Well, yes, as the report refers to Heliodrom, I am referring to

13 the domicile population of Mostar.

14 Now, regardless of what you said in respect of Mostar, I'd like

15 you to look at the next document, which is 2D 2021, and it will come up

16 on our screens on e-court. Just wait for it a moment. I'll remind you

17 that it is the report of the 6th of February, 1993, which is a weekly

18 report.

19 Now, I'm interested in the last paragraph there, where you talk

20 about -- well, you say that when you toured an area, you found that

21 effective action was necessary because there was serious shortcomings

22 which needed to be dealt with as soon as possible. At the central

23 kitchen in Ljubuski, you say existed, and the Jajce Battalion, Sutka and

24 Tomislavgrad. Now, could you explain to Their Honours whether that was

25 one of the localities in which the Jajce Battalion was located, the

Page 37681

1 Tomislavgrad SUP, and could you tell us what the living conditions there

2 were like?

3 A. On the one hand, we have the kitchen in Ljubuski, which was a

4 domicile kitchen used by the people of Ljubuski. They cooked the food

5 there and sent the food out to their soldiers. And if normal standards

6 applied, you would have to close that kitchen, but there was no other way

7 about it and you had to keep it going.

8 Now, as far as your second question is concerned, the

9 Tomislavgrad Vocational School, which was where the battalion was

10 located, although these terms are all suspect, but, anyway, there were

11 terrible conditions there because they -- there were families of refugees

12 there, people from Jajce. You had the Krajl Tomislav Brigade members

13 from Tomislavgrad and you had their families there as well, and there

14 were a lot of them. There were not enough toilets, and one of the main

15 tasks was to disinfect the area for the sewage and so on, to prevent the

16 spread of typhoid and infectious diseases generally. And typhoid did

17 break out in a part of Jajce or, rather, the people that fled in the face

18 of the Serb aggression from Jajce. The conditions were terrible, and I'm

19 sure you won't misunderstand me when I say that they might have been just

20 a little better compared to the prison. Well, for the sole reason that

21 there was no security there, that might have been the only difference, no

22 guards, but otherwise the picture was very desperate and, of course, they

23 drank a lot, so this made the situation worse.

24 Q. Now you've explained to us how they came to there from Jajce, but

25 we were discussing the food and the soldiers -- nutrition for the

Page 37682

1 soldiers and so on. Can you tell us specifically whether you were ever

2 at that facility and what the soldiers' food was like and the food of the

3 families that lived there?

4 A. Well, it was very insufficient, both in terms of the quality and

5 quantity, it was no good at all. And then later on, after a long period

6 of time had gone by, when I went back to my department, many people came

7 for treatment from those parts, and they suffered from various syndromes,

8 and many of them had chronic intestinal diseases. And I believe that in

9 1998, there was another epidemic of typhoid.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. Nozica, it seems to me that you are going a

11 bit beyond and outside of what the questions of the Prosecution in

12 cross-examination were. Jajce was not mentioned, as far as I recall.

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no mention was made of

14 Jajce, but the members of the HVO Army was mentioned and their food. The

15 people from Jajce later on became members of the HVO, so I'm talking

16 about the conditions that prevailed precisely with respect to the

17 application of the Geneva Conventions, so I'm talking about the state of

18 food that the HVO had. And these members from Jajce, as we can see from

19 this report, without a doubt, were members of the HVO, there's no doubt

20 about that, on the 3rd of February. And I asked this witness in general

21 terms, this document being merely an illustration of what the witness has

22 already said.

23 Q. Now, Witness, I'm only focusing on food here, on the food

24 situation. Before the break, you began to speak about refugee centres.

25 Could you explain to us whether you toured these refugee centres on a

Page 37683

1 regular basis, whether they existed all over HZ-HB? And I'm specifically

2 asking you about the refugee centres where there were Croats. And then

3 could you explain to us what kind of food they had and what the state --

4 their living conditions were during this period of time? Let's take it

5 from the end -- from May 1993 to the beginning of 1994, for instance. To

6 the best of your knowledge, what were their living conditions like?

7 A. Your Honours, I said yesterday that, well, through force of

8 circumstance, I became a preventive medicine expert. I'm an

9 infectologist otherwise. But as there were no specialists in preventive

10 medicine and epidemiologists, I took it upon myself to perform that task.

11 Had there been an epidemiologist present, he might have done the work

12 better than me, but I know that I worked a lot, I worked very hard, and

13 I think I satisfied the lack of knowledge that I might have otherwise had

14 in the field, because I had to educate myself in preventive medicine.

15 And as a former officer of the Yugoslav People's Army, I knew what had to

16 be done.

17 And I said yesterday that wherever you have a large number of

18 people gathering together, regardless of where they are, they become

19 potential sources of infection. And you know that during the winter,

20 when a flu is prevalent, one of the preventive measures is to prevent

21 large numbers of people conglomerating, to prevent the spread of disease,

22 just as infectious disease, you have to separate the people and look at

23 their accommodation.

24 So wherever the refugees were accommodated was a signal to me to

25 go and check out the conditions and situation, to do everything in my

Page 37684

1 power to prevent these people from coming down with disease.

2 Q. Just a minute, Witness. Your answer is a little too long, and I

3 was focusing on one point, actually, and it is this: Were there

4 refugees -- such refugee centres from May 1993 to the beginning of 1994

5 in the area of Mostar and the surrounding parts? And if so, did you

6 visit them or it, and what was the food situation like for those refugees

7 who were predominantly Croats? That's who I'm asking about, the Croats.

8 And I know that you said yesterday that you visited the refugee centres

9 which had Muslims in them at the end of 1992.

10 A. Let me repeat. I made several visits, not one but several, and

11 there's a lot of paperwork to bear that out. There was not enough food

12 at the beginning of the war, when the roads were cut off, the

13 communication lines were cut off, and when food couldn't be brought in.

14 There was not enough food for the domicile population either. And as for

15 the localities you are asking about, the people were certainly hungry

16 there. They certainly didn't have enough clothing, and they certainly

17 didn't have enough footwear. They didn't have enough hot water. They

18 didn't have enough blankets or things to cover themselves with. They

19 slept on the floor with the odd rug or blanket. We managed to clean them

20 and disinfect them from time to time, but not very often.

21 Q. Witness, when you visited centres like that, you made your

22 recommendations for improving the situation, did you not, and you

23 indicated to the authorities under whose authority those centres were?

24 A. Yes. Well, I explained all that yesterday. I do not make a

25 distinction between soldiers and civilians. As far as I'm concerned,

Page 37685

1 they're all human beings, so I don't distinguish between prisons and

2 displaced persons, expelled persons. I don't make that distinction, as I

3 told the Prosecutor earlier on. I don't -- all I can distinguish is sex,

4 age, and whether a person is healthy or sick. There's no other

5 difference, as far as I'm concerned.

6 Q. All right, fine. Now let's move on to the next question, which

7 relates to the genders.

8 And the Prosecutor asked you whether you had seen women in

9 Heliodrom. I am going to ask you this: Do you know whether women, too,

10 could have been members of the BH Army, whether women could have been the

11 perpetrators of certain criminal acts? And I'm referring to -- when I

12 ask you this, I'm referring to your answer to that same question, the

13 answer you gave in the Naletilic/Martinovic trial on page 14708, where

14 you address that matter.

15 A. So you're asking whether women could? All I can say is that I

16 didn't see them, but why not? Why could not a woman be that? And I --

17 when I was a child, I learnt about national heroes, women like

18 Marija Bursac, who were partisans, and in my unit there were many women

19 who -- and in the medical corps and quartermaster corps, and especially

20 women up at the front-line, they were of no lesser value than their

21 fellow combatants. But I don't think that a woman's place is in the

22 army, but more in the rear.

23 Q. Well, you said you didn't see any women, and I am referring to

24 the answer you gave in the Tuta Stela trial, so I'm asking you whether

25 women can be army members, and can women be the perpetrators of criminal

Page 37686

1 acts?

2 A. Yes, I said that if there were women in the HVO, why wouldn't

3 there have been any women in the Bosnian or Serbian Army.

4 Q. Can a woman perpetrate a crime?

5 A. Any person, regardless of their race, age, gender, or sex, and

6 regardless of their title, can make a -- commit a crime.

7 Q. I am going to show you now P 5464. You were talking about this

8 document yourself, so I would like to ask you something about it.

9 Can we look at this document in e-court, please. This is

10 document 5465. My mistake. 5465.

11 Witness, you haven't seen it yet. You're going to get it in a

12 minute. Just one moment. The usher has found it.

13 And you also have seen the document before. Please, you said

14 that you don't know. This is a document that Mr. Stanko Bozic writes to

15 the deputy of the defence head, Dr. Ivan Bagaric, and he complains in

16 this document that the wounded and the sick should be transferred to

17 hospital. You said yourself, and this is written in page 68, line 8 of

18 our transcript of today, that you know that practically one month before

19 that, Mr. Bagaric gave a precise instruction about how the sick should be

20 transferred who are in need of hospital care; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you to look at document, and the

23 document that was shown to you yesterday by my colleague, Ms. Alaburic,

24 and this is document P 4145. It's going to come to you in the electronic

25 courtroom. Just one moment, just wait, please. I just would like to ask

Page 37687

1 you.

2 You notice the date, the 14th of August, and now I'm going to

3 just ask you if you -- if you had ever referred to this document.

4 A. Yes. Defence Counsel Alaburic put the question to me about this,

5 but it was a bit terminologically demanding, this document.

6 Q. Can you please look at this last item, which says: "Until we

7 resolve the issue of an ambulance for Heliodrom, please use vehicle OZJIH

8 and the War Hospital of Mostar."

9 A. Well, this is the Operations Zone of the 3rd Brigade, where

10 Heliodrom was, and they were given the option of so-called evacuation to

11 them, so that the War Hospital would send vehicles, the vehicles would be

12 loaded into the vehicles [as interpreted], and then they would be

13 returned. This is evacuation to them. There is evacuation away from

14 them, meaning that vehicles of the 3rd Brigade and the operation zone

15 would take the prisoners and take them to the hospital. There would be

16 two-way evacuation that would be used, to yourself and away from

17 yourself.

18 Q. In the documents, it says that Mr. Bozic received very precise

19 instructions about the way in which you could send the ill to the

20 hospital, those who required medical attention or hospital attention?

21 A. If we look at the 12th of August, well, it's a month and a half.

22 I think the instruction is quite clear. Rather, it was foreseen that

23 some unpleasant kind of situation could occur and that immediately, at

24 the start, we would need to find a solution, because - you know

25 what? - in peace time you mostly work on the basis of some assumptions.

Page 37688

1 In war, not only are you operating with assumptions, but you have to make

2 guesses, so it's even more difficult. So it's a major thing for you to

3 manage to assume that something would happen so that this would not

4 happen later. That is why they were taking all these measures.

5 Q. And now my last question. When you were talking about proposals

6 for measures, you said in the response to the question by my learned

7 friend, the Prosecutor, you said that it was obvious that the situation

8 was getting better, in terms of the time as time went by. Now, I am

9 specifically going to ask you this: First of all, is this correct, and

10 in the same way was the situation gradually improving, as far as food was

11 concerned for the people in the collection centres, as well as the

12 provisions for Mostar, and was the HVO Army in Mostar getting better food

13 as time went by?

14 A. Yes, I think that there is a report somewhere, if I'm not

15 mistaken, in February 1994 precisely referring to Heliodrom. I think it

16 was February 1994, yes, where it was achieved that - amongst other

17 things - at that particular location, the ward said that the food was

18 qualitatively good, that they had toilet paper, that they had sufficient

19 food, and that their people who were working there were taking preventive

20 measures. And for me, that is a major thing. And I also believe that to

21 be a result of our pressure, our voluminous writing, and reports and so

22 on. And in the way that things changed there, things changed for the

23 better among the expelled persons. If you compare and you look at those

24 reports, you are going to see large, large steps forward.

25 Q. The third category was: Were the members of the HVO, as time

Page 37689

1 went by -- did the situation and the conditions of their food supplies

2 improve? When you went out into the field, did you see anything like

3 that when you were touring the units?

4 A. Yes, the situation was improving. There was more food and there

5 was better quality of food. And looking at it from the aspect of

6 preventive medicine, there was something else. Already at the time, it

7 was the case that doctors in Heliodrom and at the front were keeping

8 records and protocols. We had managed to achieve a complete positive

9 move forward. Had the war gone on longer, we would have met all the

10 required conditions. Thank God it didn't last long, but had it gone on,

11 we would have continued.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

13 Your Honours, I have completed my examination of this witness,

14 and I have no further questions. Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have had 25 minutes for

16 your redirect, which will be subtracted from your time.

17 Witness, I'd like to thank you for having come to testify at the

18 request of Mr. Stojic's Defence counsel. I wish you a safe journey home,

19 and I wish you well.

20 Before you leave the courtroom, I would like the blinds to be

21 dropped so that you can leave.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I say something?

23 First of all, thank you very much for the professional attitude,

24 although for me this is a very traumatic experience. I thank the Defence

25 lawyers and the Prosecution. And, first of all, I would like to thank