Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 38464

 1                           Tuesday, 24 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Prlic and Coric not present]

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 2.34 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you call the

 8     case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.

11             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor verse Prlic et al.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. Registrar.

14             Today is Tuesday, the 24th of March, 2009.  I would like to

15     welcome the accused, the Defence counsel, the witness, as well as the

16     OTP, as well as all the people assisting us in this courtroom much.

17             Registrar, have you two IC numbers, please.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  It is actually three.

19             The 2D Defence has submitted its objections to documents tendered

20     by the Prosecution, and the Petkovic Defence team, through witness

21     Bandic, Ivan.  The Prosecution has also submitted its combined objections

22     to Defence list of documents through witness Bandic, Ivan.  This list

23     shall be given Exhibit numbers IC961, 962 and 963 respectively.  Thank

24     you, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you,

Page 38465

 1     Registrar.

 2             Ms. Nozica, I believe have you 18 minutes left.

 3             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good afternoon,

 4     Your Honours.  Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom, and good

 5     afternoon, Mr. Makar.

 6                           WITNESS:  ANDJELKO MAKAR [Resumed]

 7                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Examination by Ms. Nozica [Continued]

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Makar, at the beginning of your

10     examination-in-chief, we spoke about your contacts between Mr. Saric, the

11     commander of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army and Dr. Ivo Prodan, head of

12     department, who was employed in the Ministry of Defence of the Republic

13     of Croatia, in the Health Administration.  Can you tell me, to the best

14     of your knowledge, and looking at the Medical Corps and field of Health,

15     was there any cooperation between the Republic of Croatia and the

16     2nd Corps of the BH Army?

17        A.   Your Honours, yes, I can confirm that.  Mr. Prodan and the

18     Administration for Health of Croatia helped us a great deal in supplying

19     the 2nd Corps with sanitary material, medicines, and in setting up

20     wartime hospitals, and in equipping those hospitals.

21        Q.   I would like us now to look at a few documents and to have your

22     comments.  The first is 2D1132.  And I hope you have the binder.

23        A.   No, I don't seem to have the binder.

24             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Well, could I ask the usher to help

25     us out, please.

Page 38466

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   We'll take them in order, so find 2D1132 first, please.

 4        A.   Yes, I found it.

 5        Q.   Can you explain what this document represents?  What is it?

 6        A.   Your Honours, this is a document.  It's a command, ordering

 7     Dr. Ivan Hudolin to take up the position of the coordinator for civilian

 8     and military health in the territory of the Operative Group East

 9     Posavina, and he is appointed as the chief surgeon at the war hospital at

10     Brcko.  I knew Mr. Hudolin, I knew him then and I know him now, and I

11     know that he did take up that post.  I visited the war hospital

12     frequently so I can confirm that that's what this document is about.

13        Q.   Please look at the next document, 2D1133.

14        A.   Yes, Your Honours, once again this is a document that refers to

15     Dr. Hudolin, regulating some of his rights in the service.

16        Q.   Now look at 2D1131, please.

17        A.   Your Honours, this is another document connected to Dr. Hudolin's

18     involvement, and by this order priority is given in traffic for him to be

19     able to go about his duties.

20        Q.   The next document is 2D1136.  Would you take a look at that now,

21     please.

22        A.   Your Honours, this is a document of the District Staff of the

23     Territorial Defence, dated September 1992, signed by the corps commander,

24     Zeljko Knez, and it is ordered hereby that the Administration for Health

25     be established in the 2nd Corps, with its seat in Tuzla, and the

Page 38467

 1     commander is Dr. Mejrudin Hosonovic, and the deputy commander and chief

 2     inspector of the war hospitals is Dr. Ivan Hudolin.  He was appointed to

 3     that post.  So this confirms that pursuant to an order from Mr. Prodan

 4     and the minister of defence, Dr. Hudolin came to the corps, was engaged

 5     by the corps to carry out these duties.

 6        Q.   The next document is 2D1137, once against signed by Zeljko Knez.

 7        A.   Yes.  This document follows on from the other one, judging by the

 8     date, and the Command Staff of the war hospitals is determined, and

 9     locations for the formation of war hospitals are mentioned, and for the

10     commander of the war hospitals we see, among other things, in Maoca, a

11     place called Maoca, that Dr. Hudolin -- Ivan Hudolin is being appointed

12     to that post.  And the corps commander has signed it, Zeljko Knez.

13        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber where Maoca is, what country

14     that's in, what state?

15        A.   Maoca is in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It is Bosanska Posavina, near

16     Brcko.

17        Q.   Just two more documents.  2D1134 is the next one.  This is a

18     document dated the 2nd of November, 1992.  2D1134 is the number.

19        A.   This is a document by the head of the Sanitary Inspection Service

20     from the Republic of Croatia, Professor Josip Stojakovic, giving certain

21     instructions.  I assume this is to Dr. Ivan Hudolin, because it says to

22     Dr. Ivan Hudolin, and then it says "Dear Ivo."  So some guide-lines for

23     Dr. Hudolin.

24        Q.   The KBC of Tuzla is mentioned there, Tuzla KBC, and this

25     incorporates the situation in the Tuzla hospital?

Page 38468

 1        A.   Yes, the clinical hospital centre of Tuzla is a large medical

 2     institution, it was during the war and still is, and the staff from the

 3     hospital was used for the war hospitals as well, and Dr. Hudolin played

 4     his part there.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now let's look at the next document, 2D1135.  This is

 6     the Command of the 108th Brigade, Brcko, the 10th of December, 1992?

 7        A.   Yes.  The commander who signed this document is Ramiz Pljakic of

 8     the 108th Brigade of the HVO at Posavina; and I can't remember exactly,

 9     but I see from the contents of this document that Dr. Hudolin was

10     supposed to be moved to the war hospital in Tolisa.  However, the

11     commander of the 108th Brigade is requesting that Dr. Hudolin stay where

12     he is because his services are needed.  And I know that there was very

13     heavy fighting at that time in 1992 with a lot of wounded, and I know

14     that Dr. Hudolin, as a surgeon, saved many lives, and many others the

15     life of Dr. Miludin Hosonovic mentioned a moment ago, who was seriously

16     wounded.  Yes, I do apologise.

17        Q.   You said Miludin Hosonovic, did you?

18        A.   Yes.  For those reason the request by the brigade commander to

19     have Dr. Hudolin remain where he was and carry out his duties there is

20     what this document is all about.

21        Q.   Now look at 2D1188 [as interpreted], the last document in this

22     series relating to this area.  It is signed by Mr. Bagaric on the 3rd of

23     November, 1993.

24        A.   Yes.  I can see from the document that it is about the Bosanska

25     Bjela war hospital, and I should like to point out that we're dealing

Page 38469

 1     with November 1993 here, where the assistant to the minister of defence

 2     of the Healthcare Administration from Herceg-Bosna from Mostar is

 3     ordering that a war hospital at Bosanska Bjela be established and that

 4     Dr. Ivan Hudolin should be the head of that hospital, the commander of

 5     it, and that the war hospital should see to all the wounded and sick from

 6     the area of the Municipal Assembly of Brcko and the area of

 7     responsibility of the 108th Brigade.

 8        Q.   Tell me, please, this hospital, did it also treat all the members

 9     of the 2nd Corps?

10        A.   Yes.  I know that for certain because I was there.  At the time

11     in the zone of defence of the 108th HVO Brigade, we would have many

12     people from other parts of the brigades coming in of the BH Army, the

13     2nd Corps, to reinforce the troops in battle, so that upon their arrival

14     in the area of responsibility of the 108th Brigade, as it says in this

15     document, they were taken care of medically and relied on this particular

16     war hospital.

17        Q.   Mr. Makar, do you know whether the members of the 2nd Army were

18     treated in -- 2nd Corps were treated in Croatia, if they are more serious

19     cases, and particularly at the time when the war hospitals hadn't gotten

20     going properly yet?

21        A.   Yes, I am aware of that, that that did happen, and I know of

22     specific cases they were treated in Split, wounded were treated in Split,

23     and I think in other countries as well, but I know for sure that they

24     were treated in Croatia.

25        Q.   Mr. Makar, I'd just briefly like to go through some documents

Page 38470

 1     which, in fact, speak of these relationships -- the good relationships

 2     between the Command of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army and the HVO of the

 3     brigades to which -- which belonged to the 2nd Corps.  So I'm going to

 4     show you four documents one by one now, and the first of these is 2D1123,

 5     and I'll have -- I'll invite your comments at the end of them.  2D1127 is

 6     the next one, 2D1128, and the fourth 2D1129.

 7             Mr. Makar, based on these documents, which are, in fact, messages

 8     of congratulation, can you tell us what the relations were between the

 9     Command of the 2nd Corps, of which you were a part, and the HVO brigades?

10     And here we see the date is 1993, but I'm asking you about the entire

11     period.

12        A.   Your Honours, to the best of my knowledge there were many more

13     documents of a similar nature.  These are various messages of

14     congratulation.  I see here that someone has been promoted to a higher

15     rank, so Juric, Zvonko, the commander of the 115th Brigade; Pejo Banovic,

16     the president of the Tuzla HVO; these were all men who are in constant

17     contact of the corps, and the corps commander was often invited to

18     various celebrations, religious feast days and so on.

19        Q.   I wish to make a correction.  On page 5, in line 18, instead of

20     "2D1188," it should say "2D1138."

21             And, finally - my time is running out - could you describe to

22     Their Honours what your contacts with Bruno Stojic were like?  You said

23     there were several such contacts.  Could you describe them for us, and

24     could you explain how significant they were for the 2nd Corps of the

25     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

Page 38471

 1        A.   Your Honours, I met Mr. Bruno Stojic for the first time when I

 2     first visited Mostar, and we saw yesterday that it was on the 23rd of

 3     February, 1992.  After this, we met on two other occasions, in the course

 4     of my visits, and I can say that as regards the significance of the

 5     logistical assistance we received from the HVO and Mr. Stojic, in my

 6     estimation his attitude toward the 2nd Corps and our mutual struggle was

 7     exceptionally correct.

 8        Q.   Mr. Makar, in these conversations when you were putting forward

 9     the viewpoints of the 2nd Corps, did Mr. Stojic support the joint

10     struggle and the joint command in the 2nd Corps, and did Mr. Stojic or

11     anyone else that you talked to in Mostar feel that this was not the right

12     way to go about things?

13        A.   Your Honours, we had those meetings, both formal meetings and

14     informal chats afterwards, and always the view was expressed that it was

15     significant for Bosnia-Herzegovina, for the 2nd Corps to successfully

16     defend the territory of the population there.  Mr. Stojic knew well that

17     in the 2nd Corps, brigades of the HVO and brigades of the Army of the

18     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina were fighting together under a joint

19     command.  He knew also that in the brigades of the HVO and the brigades

20     of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the ethnic make-up was

21     mixed.  On one occasion, he even pointed out that it would be disastrous

22     if the Croats were to retreat from those areas or flee or leave, because

23     the Muslims would not be able to defend themselves alone.  That's the

24     extent to which the struggle there was a common one.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Makar.

Page 38472

 1             Your Honours, I have finished my examination-in-chief.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have two short

 3     questions for you, which are follow-up questions, which I believe are

 4     important.

 5             According to all the documents we have seen, which have been

 6     shown to you by Ms. Nozica, we have documents that establish, and this is

 7     undisputed, that in certain logistics centres, either in Zagreb or Grude,

 8     that the ABiH were procured in arms weapons for at least the entire

 9     beginning of 1993, as far as the last document is concerned the one we

10     have in our binder is dated the 2nd of May, 1993; where it is stated that

11     MTS is supplied.  As far as you know, after the months of May, let's say

12     June, July, August, September, November and December, was the arms supply

13     continued or not, either supplies coming in from the Republic of Croatia

14     or from the HVO?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can confirm that

16     this method of supply continued until the end of the war.  It was more

17     difficult in those areas where there were conflicts and problems, but

18     throughout the war this was our method of supply.  Without it, we would

19     certainly not have been able to defend ourselves and preserve the

20     territory and the people we were defending.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22             Second question:  I would like you to look at the last document,

23     please.  It will be easier for everyone.  2D1129.  It's the last document

24     in your binder.

25             There we have it.

Page 38473

 1             So I must say that when I saw this document in B/C/S, it is a

 2     document which I find poses a number of problems.  Do you realise, like I

 3     do, that this document is headed "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina"?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours, I can

 5     absolutely confirm this, because I know Mr. Pejo Banovic very well.  We

 6     often run into each other in Tuzla.  This is certainly a document issued

 7     by the Croatian Community of Soli.  Mr. Pejo Banovic frequently visited

 8     the corps commander both ex officio and because he wished to assist

 9     wherever he could.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We have seen other

11     documents.  Just turn to document 1138, which is the document just before

12     this one, document 1138.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1128?  I can't see 38.  Oh, excuse

14     me, yes, yes, 38 is in front of this one.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 1138, look at the heading.

16     Look at the heading of this document.  It doesn't say "Republic of Bosnia

17     and Herzegovina," but it does say "Bosnia and Herzegovina," and just

18     below that it says "Croatian Republic Herceg-Bosna."  As far as you are

19     concerned, do you have an explanation to give us for the different

20     headings we see in both these documents?  One is dated the 3rd of

21     November, 1993, and the last document is dated the 16th of December,

22     1993.  Let's say that there is a month in between these two documents.

23     Why is there this difference, this distinction?  Maybe you have no

24     explanation to give us, but if you do, I would find this extremely

25     interesting.

Page 38474

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, looking at this, I do

 2     observe the difference, but I'm unable to explain the reason.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Look at the coat of

 4     arms that is on the document, and then look at the coat of arms which is

 5     on the document 1129, which is the last document.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What difference is there, as

 8     far as you're concerned?  I can see what the difference is, but I had

 9     rather you tell me.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the document 1129 is

11     a document issued by the Croatian Community of Soli, so this is probably

12     their way of marking the memorandum.  The previous document, 1138, is

13     issued by the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.  And you can't really

14     see the complete symbol here, but it was the symbol of Herceg-Bosna.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since you know how the HVO used

16     to work in Tuzla, according to you, the Tuzla HVO was of the same kind as

17     the one you would find in Capljina or in Mostar, or did you have the

18     feeling that it was different, as we can see from the stamps, the

19     headings, the titles of the documents, or the reference to the Croatian

20     Community of Soli?  Were there some differences, and if so, what were the

21     reasons?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours, I cannot

23     say anything about the difference you're asking about, because I think

24     this would be a political assessment which I am unable to provide.  As

25     the Chief of Staff of the 2nd Corps, what mattered to me was that the

Page 38475

 1     brigades of the Croatian Defence Council carried out their combat

 2     assignments.  At that time, I was not interested in politics.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.  Your

 4     answer will be on the transcript, and I will perhaps ask the question of

 5     other witnesses who will appear in this court of law.

 6             I now turn to the other Defence counsel.

 7             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

 8     Your Honours.  Good afternoon to all.  The Defence of Mr. Coric has no

 9     questions for this witness.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

12     Thank you.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  Mr. President.  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

15     Good to everyone in and around the courtroom.

16             We have no questions for the gentleman, although we do thank him

17     for coming here to give his evidence, and we wish him safe passage back

18     to his home.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Mr. Kovacic.

21             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I wish to

22     ask only one question of the witness.  I have a document which I think is

23     similar to the ones we have seen, so I would like to have the witness see

24     it.

25             Could the usher help us, please.

Page 38476

 1             [In English] The number of the document I will use is 3D00312.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.  I appear on behalf of

 4     General Praljak.  As you have just spoken, and this is on page 6, line 17

 5     of the transcript, saying that people from your area also went to Split

 6     for medical treatment, I wish to ask you whether you know whether other

 7     kinds of assistance arrived from Split, such as medicines, medical

 8     equipment, and so on of the same sort that you received from Croatia.

 9        A.   Your Honours, we did receive assistance from the clinical

10     hospital in Split.  I know this because during one of my visits to

11     Mostar, and I can't say whether it was on the first or second visit, I

12     found there a group of representatives of the Tuzla authorities who were

13     just coming back from Split; and we had a conversation where they told me

14     that we were receiving some assistance from there, and they also said

15     that some of our wounded were being given medical treatment there.  And

16     this only goes to confirm what I said when answering the first question.

17             This document is one I have not seen before, but I recognise the

18     signature.  I recognise Mr. Beslagic and Mr. Sead Avdic who were in the

19     Logistics Centre.  Whenever it was possible, everyone who gave us

20     assistance was sent a letter of thanks, so I assume this was the case

21     here too.  This was sent to Dr. Dodig, the head of the hospital.

22             MR. KOVACIC:  Thank you very much.  Thank you for your response,

23     and thank you for coming to testify here.

24             Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no further questions.

25             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence of

Page 38477

 1     General Petkovic has no questions for this witness.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 3             We have completed the cross-examinations of the Defence teams of

 4     the other accused.  Ms. West, would you prefer to have the break now and

 5     we start after the break, or would you like to start now?

 6             MS. WEST:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours, and

 7     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 8             I prefer to start now.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So do start.

10             Ms. West, we have the binder, so you can start.

11             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12                           Cross-examination by Ms. West:

13        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

14        A.   [In English] Good afternoon.

15        Q.   My name is Kim West.  I'm an attorney with the Office of the

16     Prosecutor.  I'm going to ask you a few questions today.

17             You indicated yesterday that you graduated from the Military

18     Academy in 1971.  Do you remember that testimony?

19        A.   [Interpretation] Your Honours, I graduated from the Military

20     Academy in 1971.  I completed the Command Staff Academy, a higher degree,

21     in 1985, and after the war I was in the NATO school as well.

22        Q.   And what was your specialisation at the Academy.

23        A.   After completing the Academy, my specialisation was communication

24     and signals, and after graduating from the Command Staff Academy I was

25     trained as a soldier, as a professional mass-murderer, I have to say,

Page 38478

 1     because all officers in the world, after completing this academy, are

 2     able to lead a huge war machinery which is used to kill if politics so

 3     decides.  This means that I was appointed to the highest command duties,

 4     and to an even greater degree after my training in the NATO school.

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.  But let's focus on communications.  You said you

 6     specialised in communications at the academy, and in 1986, when you went

 7     to Tuzla, were you also a major in the Communications Department?

 8        A.   In 1971, 1971.

 9        Q.   When did you move to Tuzla?

10        A.   I moved to Tuzla after completing the Command Staff Academy,

11     which was in 1985.

12        Q.   And when you first arrived in Tuzla, did you become a major in

13     the Communications Department?

14        A.   Yes, that's what I became at first, yes.

15        Q.   Where do you live now?

16        A.   I live in Tuzla and Osijek, because we have a family farm near

17     Osijek, where my wife was born.  We spend about half of each month in

18     Croatia, in Slavonia, and half of each month in Tuzla, where I have many

19     obligations.  I work in the management of Tuzla Airport.  I'm the

20     president of the Rotary Club and of several committees.

21        Q.   And, sir, do you have children?

22        A.   I have two children, a son who lives and works in Tuzla - he's

23     married - and a daughter who lives and works in Canada, where she's

24     married.

25        Q.   Were they both born in Tuzla?

Page 38479

 1        A.   No, they were born in Croatia.

 2        Q.   Yesterday, you had indicated, in response to a question from

 3     Judge Antonetti -- he had asked you about the conflict in Central Bosnia,

 4     and in part of your answer, you said:

 5             "I worked for three years as a scientific adviser of the

 6     Institute for Investigating War Documents in Amsterdam, and in my work

 7     there I dealt with many of these issues."

 8             What years did you work in Amsterdam?

 9        A.   Your Honours, I have to clarify a little.  I worked not as an

10     adviser, but as a scientific associate under contract at the NIART

11     [phoen], the Institute for Investigating War Documents in Amsterdam.  The

12     Parliament of the Kingdom of the Netherlands tasked this institute with a

13     project which was investigating the role of DutchBat in Srebrenica and in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I worked on this from 1999 until 2001 with a team of

15     associates.

16             In addition to this, I was also a scientific associate in the

17     Institute for Investigating War Crimes for Dr. Smail Cekic in Sarajevo.

18     I also had many duties, together with him, in throwing light on crimes in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And, thirdly, I had a contract working as a

20     scientific associate of the Bosniak Institute in Sarajevo, with

21     Mr. Adil Zulfikarpasic for two years.  I had a contract under which I was

22     free, in my research, to choose my topic of research, and I was given

23     office space in the institute to work in.

24        Q.   Sir, as a result of this experience and this work that you did,

25     did you have the opportunity to gain a broader perspective of what

Page 38480

 1     happened in the war?  And what I mean by that is a perspective of what

 2     happened outside of Tuzla.

 3        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, in the course of my research I

 4     gained a very good picture of what had been happening in general and in

 5     some parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in particular segments in the course of

 6     the past war.  When working for Dr. Smail Cekic in the Institute for

 7     Investigating War Crimes, which I mentioned, I gave papers in conferences

 8     organised by the institute; and one of my papers concerned the project of

 9     Greater Serbia, and the military methods used to implement that project.

10             Another project I worked on was a seminar paper in my

11     post-graduate studies, and it dealt with international -- the

12     International Laws of War and the status of the protected zones --

13     protected areas in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14             When preparing this paper on the project of Greater Serbia, I

15     made a thorough study of numerous documents, and I assert that all the

16     events in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and before that in Croatia, did not

17     occur by chance, but were the result of a project envisioned about 100

18     years ago.  I drew attention to the need to study the writings of Serbian

19     authors, starting with Garasanin onwards, and to link these up with the

20     speeches made by Milosevic and Karadzic, and their actions, and what was

21     done in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I'd like to ask you a bit about the demographics

23     of the area from which you're -- where you live now in Tuzla.

24             If we can look at P10068, it's a map, and if we can have map 39,

25     please.  It's going to come up on the screen in front of you.  It might

Page 38481

 1     be the easiest way.

 2             So this is a map outlining the ethnic composition of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Sir, if you can go to actually in your book --

 4        A.   I apologise, but I still don't seem to have the map.

 5        Q.   If you can actually look in your book.  Why don't you go to

 6     10068.  You have it.  There we go.

 7             So this is a map, an ethnic map of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it

 8     also identifies areas outlined by the Vance-Owen Peace Plan.  You can't

 9     see the bottom of the map, but I'll represent to you it says the ethnic

10     composition of Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1991, and the Vance-Owen Peace

11     Plan, 25 March 1993.  Sir, I take it you're familiar with a general map

12     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13             You have to answer verbally.

14        A.   Your Honour, yes, that is the map of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15        Q.   And as a result of your experience in the war and also your

16     studies and research afterwards, are you familiar generally with the

17     Vance-Owen Peace Plan?

18        A.   In general terms, I know of the plan, but I don't know the

19     details of it.

20        Q.   That's fine, we won't get into the details.  But if you look at

21     the map, you'll see that the areas 8 and 10, do you see those in front of

22     you, those are generally the areas of Herceg-Bosna; and the area of 3,

23     which is the Posavina, would you agree with me those were the areas that

24     the Vance-Owen Peace Plan anticipated would go to the Croats?

25        A.   As I said, I knew about the Vance-Owen Peace Plan, and as soon as

Page 38482

 1     I saw it I didn't think it would survive, and this is what happened later

 2     on, and that's what I think now.  I don't think it was a very clever

 3     plan.

 4        Q.   Sir, why didn't you think it was a clever plan?

 5        A.   Well, first of all, because of the people that devised it, and,

 6     secondly, because politics never envisaged Bosnia-Herzegovina that way,

 7     and it could never survive that way, as had been envisaged.  But the only

 8     thing I recognise is that the -- is the policy and politics of Yalta,

 9     where Stalin and Churchill discussed world affairs, and when Churchill

10     drew a line with his blue pen along the Drina and said, You're the East

11     over there and you're the West.  And the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

12     considered the West and could not be divided up as conceived by

13     Vance-Owen or anybody else.

14        Q.   Is let's talk about the ethnicities of the municipalities as

15     indicated by this map, and let's focus first on Tuzla, because that's

16     where you spent the last 24 years.  Would you agree with me that Tuzla is

17     predominantly a Muslim municipality?

18        A.   Could you explain what you mean when you say "Tuzla"?  Do you

19     mean the town of Tuzla itself, or the Tuzla canton, or the Tuzla region,

20     because they are all different things and my answer will depend upon what

21     you mean exactly.

22        Q.   Fair enough.  I mean the Tuzla municipality, so not the city of

23     Tuzla but the entire municipality.

24        A.   As for the Tuzla municipality, the town of Tuzla proper, well,

25     it's very difficult to deal with concepts that way.  The town itself is

Page 38483

 1     mostly inhabited by Muslims.  There's a Muslim majority, but all the

 2     local communes around there and if you look at the land registers, the

 3     land is owned mostly by Croats, so we would have to differentiate there

 4     in order to have the proper answer and would have to limit ourselves to

 5     the exact area we have in mind.

 6        Q.   Okay.  So I gather it's your testimony that the town of Tuzla was

 7     predominantly Muslim, or the majority was Muslim, but the area around the

 8     area of Tuzla had a significant Croatian population; is that right?

 9        A.   Your Honours and Madam Prosecutor, no, that's not right.  When I

10     say "the town," the town, I said, Yes, the Muslims were in the majority,

11     the majority population in the town, but I said as for the land register,

12     the Croatian population owned the land according to the land registers.

13     I don't know if you understand me.

14        Q.   Well, I don't want to know who owned the land.  I just generally

15     want to know whether in the entire municipality of Tuzla, so we're not

16     talking about only the town of Tuzla, but in the entire municipality of

17     Tuzla, was there a Muslim relative majority?

18        A.   Yes, I agree with you there.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's look at the municipalities around Tuzla,

20     and specifically I think the best way to do this is to talk about those

21     municipalities that come under the 2nd Corps command.  Yesterday, you

22     mentioned a number of those, and let's go through those and others to see

23     if they come under the 2nd Corps.

24             Let's start in the lower -- well, let's start in Srebrenica.  You

25     can find that on the map; correct?

Page 38484

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I just thought about

 2     what you had just said, which is rather troublesome.  On the map that we

 3     have, which was shown by Ms. West, as far as negotiations based in Geneva

 4     were concerned they were convinced that the entirety of the Tuzla area,

 5     as it is marked on the map, was predominantly Muslim.  This is what

 6     appears on the key of the map.  And you actually just said that in the

 7     town, indeed, Muslims were the majority population, but you added

 8     something regarding the land register.  It may have gone off the wayside,

 9     but actually the land register reflects the various plots of land which

10     belong to landowners, and I assume -- I've never been to Tuzla, but I

11     assume that around the town of Tuzla you have fields where you have

12     farmers working, because the Tuzla area is producing salt, I think that

13     it's the number-one production item, but there must be some farmers

14     producing vegetable and fruits; and if I understood correctly, according

15     to you, the landowners of those agricultural plots were mainly Croats.

16     Is that what you said to us?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Judge Antonetti,

18     that's precisely what I meant.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It means that if

20     those based in Geneva decide that the entirety of the Tuzla region, which

21     is the area number 5 on the map, was going to be a Muslim area, of course

22     it would lead to some problems for Croat landowners who seemed to have

23     the entirety of the farming plots in the surrounding areas of Tuzla?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, yes.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Now I understand

Page 38485

 1     what you said.

 2             Ms. West, you can proceed.

 3             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Sir, if we can just go back to those municipalities that were

 5     under the control of the 2nd Corps, and start with Srebrenica.  Was that

 6     a municipality underneath or under the auspices of the 2nd Corps?

 7        A.   Your Honours, that municipality was under the Tuzla district, and

 8     there was a municipal staff of the Territorial Defence there before the

 9     war and during the war.  It was mostly physically separate, but it did

10     come under the 2nd Corps.  There was the 28th Division over there, and we

11     know what the fate of that was with the events around Srebrenica.

12        Q.   And Srebrenica is a municipality with an absolute Muslim

13     majority; correct?

14        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, in Srebrenica at present there

15     are 27 Croats living there.  There's a Catholic Church.  I was there

16     quite recently, so I know this for certain.  And you're quite right, the

17     majority of the population was always the Muslim population.

18        Q.   Thank you.  We may need assistance from the usher, but I think

19     that you can take the pen and mark on the screen, and as we go through

20     these municipalities maybe you can just put a dot on each one that you

21     agree falls under the 2nd Corps command.

22             So if you can put a dot on Srebrenica.

23        A.   I beg your pardon, but do you want me to mark the municipalities

24     that came under the 2nd Corps or do you mean the municipalities which

25     came under the Tuzla district?

Page 38486

 1        Q.   Municipalities that came under the 2nd Corps.

 2        A.   Very well.  [Marks] Srebrenica.

 3        Q.   What about Bratunac?

 4        A.   [Marks] Bratunac.

 5        Q.   Do you agree with me that Bratunac has an absolute majority of

 6     Muslims in it as well?

 7        A.   Yes, I agree.

 8        Q.   What about Vlasenica?

 9        A.   [Marks] Vlasenica.

10        Q.   Would you agree that Vlasenica has an absolute majority of Muslim

11     inhabitants?

12        A.   Yes, I agree.

13        Q.   So to go a little bit faster, let's do this in a group.  Zvornik,

14     Kalesija, Zivinice and Kladanj, those four in green above the red, are

15     those all part of the 2nd Corps?

16        A.   I'm sorry, but I didn't understand what you said.  Zvornik -- I

17     see it on the transcript.  Zvornik, yes [Marks].  Kladanj [Marks].

18        Q.   And just north of Kladanj, that municipality as well, do you see

19     that?  It's Z-i-v-i-n-i-c-e.

20        A.   [Marks] Zivinice.

21        Q.   And just to its east, the next municipality, Kalesija.

22        A.   [Marks] Kalesija.

23        Q.   Are those municipalities also under the auspices of the

24     2nd Corps?

25        A.   Well, you couldn't put it that way, exactly.  The 2nd Corps was

Page 38487

 1     formed from the District Staff of the Territorial Defence.  Before the

 2     war, all these municipalities, with their municipal staffs, came under

 3     the composition of the District Staff of Tuzla, and let me point out that

 4     that was before the war.  Now, when the war broke out, after the decision

 5     by the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina to turn the Territorial Defence

 6     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the armed force of Bosnia-Herzegovina, only 13

 7     municipalities out of the pre-war ones that came under the district of

 8     Tuzla came under the command of the 2nd Corps, as far as I remember.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let me ask you a different question.  Do you see all

10     the municipalities in the area of number 5, going north-west towards

11     Tuzla, so I'm not talking about Gorazde or Visegrad, not down there, but

12     in the area right around Tuzla, all those municipalities in the number 5,

13     are though all under the 2nd Corps?

14        A.   I can continue to explain, but I don't see why you don't want me

15     to continue with these municipalities, Lukavac, Srebrenik, Gracanica,

16     that was all 2nd Corps, Banovici.

17        Q.   Perfect.  Then just on the map put a mark on each municipality

18     that was part of the 2nd Corps.

19        A.   Let's take it in order.  Srebrenik [Marks].  Then up there north

20     of Tuzla, we have -- Your Honours, I said yesterday that under the

21     2nd Corps, for example, we had part of the Lopare municipality, and

22     because part of it remained under Chetnik territory, so how do you want

23     me to mark that?

24        Q.   Maybe you can just put a "1" slash through it rather than an X.

25     Just put a "1" through it.

Page 38488

 1        A.   Very well, I'll put Lopare [Marks], the whole of Tuzla -- well,

 2     the whole of Lukavac, we can say that, yes [Marks], Banovici [Marks],

 3     Gracanica, part of the Gradacac municipality, so I'll put a 1 or half an

 4     X [Marks], part of the Brcko, the same thing, I'll put a 1 [Marks], part

 5     of the Doboj municipality --

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I'm sorry.  I have

 7     sort of a military question to ask you, because my attention is now drawn

 8     to the area where you have figure 6, which is a Serb area, Sekovici, can

 9     you see?  Where you see the figure 6, can you confirm that this area was

10     held by the Serbs?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honour, I would

12     like us to draw a line here which was the boundary of the call line or

13     the line towards the Serbs, and then this whole story would be clearer.

14     For example, Sekovici municipality did not come under the call zone.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, since it's Ms. West who is

16     examining you based on this map, I don't know whether this is of any use

17     to you.

18             Ms. West, the witness would like to draw a line which would be

19     the front-line with the Serbs.  Would that be of any use to you?

20             MS. WEST:  Yes.

21        Q.   Sir, go ahead.

22        A.   Your Honours, that's -- I'm proposing this, because it's very

23     difficult, looking at this map.  This is the prewar situation.  During

24     the war, numerous municipalities were set up, and this map doesn't

25     reflect that, doesn't correspond to that newly-arisen situation, so I'll

Page 38489

 1     try and do it.  Although it's difficult technically, I'll try and do a

 2     separation line with the Chetniks so you can see what the 2nd Corps

 3     incorporated.

 4             Let's start with Gradacac municipality [Marks].  Perhaps I'm

 5     going to take a bigger portion here, but, anyway, Gracanica -- this is

 6     just a rough picture.  Olovo [Marks] --

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  If we could have a time-frame.  What time is the

 8     gentleman speaking of?  And when he refers to Chetniks, perhaps he can

 9     give us a clarification.  Is this the VRS, and if so, I would appreciate

10     that we don't use the pejorative term for Serbs as Chetniks.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, yes.  Yesterday, you

12     made a clear distinction between the Chetniks and the Serbs, and earlier

13     on you mentioned Chetniks.  I conclude from this that, for you, those --

14     the people that occupied those front-lines were not the Serbs in the

15     meaning you described yesterday, which were the JNA soldiers.  So when

16     you talk about Chetniks, what are you talking about, exactly?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I say "Chetnik," I'm mean

18     something positive.  At the beginning, the concept of Chetnik was

19     something positive.  Through history, let me put it this way, there were

20     units -- there were units which fought for their freedom and their free

21     territory, but in World War II and in this most recent war that we're

22     discussing here and now, as far as we're concerned, the notion of Chetnik

23     became something with a very negative connotation; and so I would like

24     the Trial Chamber to understand that and respect that, because for me the

25     term "Chetnik" does not mean a Serb.  And let me say that my wife is a

Page 38490

 1     Serb, so if to no other reason, then for that reason; but also for the

 2     reason that I am a religious man myself and I respect each and every

 3     human being, regardless of their nation or creed or religion.  So when I

 4     say "Chetnik" here, you can take that to mean the army.  I don't know,

 5     was it the Republika Srpska Army, is that what it was called?  Anyway,

 6     they were our enemies at the time.

 7             MS. WEST:

 8        Q.   Sir, have you finished putting the front-line on the map?

 9        A.   Well, roughly, I'll draw it in.  We have this part here [Marks],

10     which was physically separated from us.  I don't know if you can see

11     that, but I've just drawn it in.  It is the Tesanj and Maglaj and Zepce

12     municipalities, where we had our BH Army brigades and also the 110th

13     Brigade of the HVO.

14        Q.   And those municipalities are part -- are under the 2nd Corps as

15     well; yes?

16        A.   Yes.  I mean, not the municipalities, as such, but the military

17     units.

18        Q.   So if you can put an X on those areas as well.

19        A.   Yes [Marks].  And then we have over here - I'll try and draw it

20     in - part of the Srebrenica area [Marks].  It would be roughly this, if

21     you can see it.  So this largest part was a compact territory under the

22     2nd Corps, and we had two separate entities.  Srebrenica was one and part

23     of Tesanj and Maglaj formed the other.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.  This is my question, a

25     military type of question:  You've just drawn the front-lines.  My

Page 38491

 1     question is the following:  How come that the area occupied by the Serbs,

 2     area number 6, why they are surrounded by you, because the is 2nd Corps

 3     is in the Srebrenica area and was also present north of that area held by

 4     the Serbs?  Now, how come this Serb-held area managed to resist and did

 5     not fall under the command of the 2nd Corps, while you indicated yourself

 6     that you had 80.000 men in the 2nd Corps?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President and Your Honours,

 8     under the 2nd Corps composition, and I'll provide you with the precise

 9     information, at the beginning of the war we had 49.531 members.  That was

10     the first year of the war.  In 1993, we had 77.647 soldiers.  However,

11     and I spoke about this yesterday, with that numerical supremacy, and we

12     always had numerical supremacy in terms of soldiers and officers, we had

13     4.400 officers in the corps, the opposite side had absolute technical

14     supremacy.

15             And you know, and this is common knowledge, that after the

16     withdrawal of the Yugoslav Army from Slovenia, most of those troops came

17     to Bosnia.  After Croatia, the same thing happened.  Under the corps

18     zone, specifically the one I've just depicted, and let me show you again

19     the broader region around Zvornik and Sekovici, I'll draw a thicker line

20     there [Marks], an armoured brigade from Jastrebarsko arrived.  The

21     armoured brigade from Jastrebarsko, according to its formation

22     establishment, had over 100 tanks alone; and so, Your Honours, with great

23     human suffering and all the rest of it, we managed to capture 27 tanks, I

24     believe, and that was all the tanks we had.

25             So in addition to the armoured brigade from Jastrebarsko and the

Page 38492

 1     broader region of South-East Bosnia, other armoured forces arrived.

 2             So as I said yesterday, to every one of our shells, they had a

 3     thousand of their own.  One of our tanks, they had -- for one of our

 4     tanks, they had twenty-five.  So the ratio was 1:25 there.  So the line

 5     that we were able to establish, the defence line, we were able to hold

 6     throughout the war, and in 1993 and 1994 we managed to cross over into a

 7     tactical and operative offensive, and so we managed to expand the area of

 8     this territory.  However, in 1992 and 1993, militarily speaking, it was

 9     absolutely impossible to do more than we managed to do, because the enemy

10     forces were far greater.  They had many more weapons, and you know that

11     in 1992 the use of the air force came into play, and we didn't have an

12     air force.  So this was an unequal battle, looking at it on the basis of

13     MTS, materiel and technical equipment.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you've explained that

15     the area covered by number 6 was -- you could not occupy it because there

16     were 100 armoured vehicles there.  Now, at the time, and this will be my

17     last question, the solution could not be a military one, because you

18     would never have managed to occupy these areas, so the solution could

19     only be political; yes or no?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Mr. President, but

21     could you repeat that question, please?  I don't think I understood it.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I'll repeat my

23     question.

24             You've just told us that in area number 6, there were 100

25     armoured vehicles.  You managed to seize about 26, but about 80 were

Page 38493

 1     still remaining.  And you've just told us that the Serbian forces were

 2     very numerous and very well equipped, which means that one could

 3     conclude, according to what you've told us, that the solution could not

 4     be a military one, you could not manage to beat the Serbs, and so the

 5     solution could only be a political one?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, your question is clear

 7     to me now, but let me make a correction.

 8             We did not capture 26 out of 100 tanks, but throughout the war,

 9     in other areas where we fought also, the total number of tanks we

10     captured was 26.  In addition to this, I have to add, to confirm what

11     Your Honour said, and you can see this on the map, this side had

12     unlimited assistance from Yugoslavia.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation][Previous translation

14     continues] ... anything.  I'm just asking you a question.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because if you are saying this,

17     all the counsels will be up on their feet, so it's just a question.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, Your Honours,

19     that a political solution was the only solution possible, and I felt that

20     way before the war broke out.  But unfortunately it did not materialise,

21     so we did whatever we were able to, as soldiers.  What politicians were

22     able to do, I cannot comment on.

23             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're asking

24     about number 6, but there are three areas marked "6," and at least in the

25     interpretation into Croatian, it seems that you consider the Serbs had a

Page 38494

 1     sort of enclave in number 6, but this was all held by them, and it was

 2     actually the 2nd Corps that was encircled.  So they had tactical

 3     manoeuvres in all the areas marked "6."

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, General Praljak is

 5     right, there are three number 6s here, but my question is regarding area

 6     number 6 in the middle.  Well, I can't really see now.  The one really in

 7     the middle, just -- the Kovaci.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I understood you,

 9     and that's the area I was thinking of also.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you had the same area in

11     mind.  Very good, then.

12             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Well, actually, there are four

13     number 6s on this map.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, there are four,

15     but we were talking about the "6" really at the top.

16             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Sir, let's go back to the map, and let's finish up what I

18     originally asked you, which is:  Put an X in the municipalities that were

19     under the auspices of the 2nd Corps.  So I think probably the last place

20     that we're talking about is the Posavina area.  Is that part -- was that

21     part of the 2nd Corps?

22        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, a part of Posavina did belong to

23     the 2nd Corps to the south of Brcko.  I'm drawing a line here [Marks],

24     and this is where we kept trying to break through the enemy corridor and

25     reach the Sava River, and then the area you referred to as Posavina would

Page 38495

 1     have belonged to us.  But the actual area of the corps was as I marked

 2     it.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So would you agree with me of the areas you have

 4     marked, they mostly appear to be green; is that fair to say?

 5        A.   Yes, that's obvious.

 6        Q.   And in regard to the blue areas, at least in the Posavina, we do

 7     have some blue municipalities in the very north -- northern Posavina.  Is

 8     it your testimony that those are Croatian areas?

 9        A.   Your Honours, I don't know how Madam Prosecutor -- I don't know

10     what she means when she said "Croatian."  It's all Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11     But if you're asking about the colour, yes, those areas are blue.

12        Q.   And I will be more precise in my question.  Are those

13     municipalities -- was that the ethnic make-up of those municipalities,

14     was it a majority of Croats living there?

15        A.   Your Honours, I can't be certain about that, but I think that's

16     correct.  And if that's how it's represented on the map, I assume that's

17     how it was.

18        Q.   All right, sir.  If we can -- we're going to take a break

19     shortly, but I think we can finish this up.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you like to have an IC

21     number for this map?

22             MS. WEST:  Excuse me.  Yes, please, Mr. President.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the marked version of the map shall

24     be given Exhibit IC00964.  Thank you, Your Honours.

25             MS. WEST:

Page 38496

 1        Q.   But, Mr. Witness, let's continue to look at this map, and if you

 2     can look down to the areas that are number 8 and number 10.  Would you

 3     agree with me that that area on the map is what was considered

 4     Herceg-Bosna?

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour, but I

 6     object because the Croatian Community of Soli, Posavina, Sarajevo, and

 7     Central Bosnia also belonged to the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna as

 8     of the 17th of October, 1992; so I think the question is not precise

 9     enough.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine, fine.  Madam Nozica, you

11     should not here testify.  Let Ms. West proceed, and then if you have

12     questions at the end, you can put additional questions.

13             So, Ms. West, please put your question again, because we've lost

14     track.

15             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would ask that that

16     question [sic] be stricken from the record as testimony.

17        Q.   For the purposes of this question, if we can look to the areas of

18     8 and 10.  Do you see those areas in front of you?

19        A.   Yes, I do see areas 8 and 10 on the map.

20        Q.   And let's assume, for the purposes of my question, that

21     municipalities covered in blue -- coloured in blue are those that have an

22     absolute majority of Croats in them.  Do you see several blue

23     municipalities in the area of 8 and 10?

24        A.   Yes, I see the areas marked blue.

25        Q.   And would you agree with me that most of those areas are actually

Page 38497

 1     buttressed or at least sided to the west with Croatia; they are close up

 2     to Croatia?

 3        A.   Yes, I agree with that.

 4        Q.   Now, if we look at the rest of 8 and 10, would you agree that

 5     there is not so much blue; a lot of 8 and 10 in the middle area would be,

 6     for the purposes of this question, the green-coloured areas as Muslim

 7     areas?  The question is:  Those areas are mostly green; correct?

 8             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to

 9     object to this line of questioning.  I think that the Prosecutor is

10     asking the witness to speculate and to interpret the colours on the map.

11     The witness said that he had no personal knowledge of where there was a

12     majority and where a minority population -- we can all see what the

13     colours are on the map.  All the witness is saying is, I have to trust

14     the map.  The witness was not told who compiled this map for what

15     purpose, and the witness cannot know whether he can or cannot trust the

16     map if he has no personal knowledge of the make-up of the population in

17     areas other than the area he lived and worked in.  That's why I'm

18     objecting to this line of questioning, and I don't see what it's leading

19     up to.

20             Thank you.

21             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, that's the reason that in --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             MS. WEST:  That's the reason in the question I said "for the

24     purposes of this question."  I would not ask this witness, who's lived in

25     Tuzla for the last 24 years, if he has an intimate knowledge of the

Page 38498

 1     majority ethnic groups in that area.

 2             MR. KHAN:  Well, Your Honour, I do support my learned friend --

 3     my learned friend's interjection at the outset.  The map really does

 4     speak for itself.  Nothing more needs to be said, and if my learned

 5     friend for the Prosecution wishes to ask precise questions, of course

 6     there is no objection; but asking a very subjective evaluation, for

 7     example, in the area delineated in number 8, subjectively is it more blue

 8     or more green, it really doesn't take us very far.  The map shows what it

 9     shows, and I would ask my learned friend to move on and ask precise

10     questions.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, the map seemingly was

12     drawn on the basis of the census of 1991, so those people that plotted

13     the map had those figures from the census of 1991, from 1 to 10, as part

14     of the Vance-Owen Plan.  They marked this map with a colour code which

15     matched the ethnic composition at the time, so what we see here cannot be

16     challenged, since it is based on the census of 1991.  If you put the

17     question to him and say, In Livno, there was 50 percent Croats, he can

18     only say, Yes.  What is more interesting, however, is the question you

19     want to put to him; so please go to the point and put your question.

20             My colleague says it would be best after the break, so let's have

21     the break, so you can prepare your question, and we shall meet again in

22     20 minutes' time.

23                           --- Recess taken at 4.03 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 4.24 p.m.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, you have the floor.

Page 38499

 1             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Sir, I believe the map is still in front of you on the screen.

 3        A.   Yes, I can see it.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And if we look you up, you would agree with me to the

 5     right of Bosnia-Herzegovina, although it's not in red, this is Serbia;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes, I agree.

 8        Q.   And that the area in number 4 that is red, that's an area that

 9     the Serbian controlled; correct?

10        A.   That's how it is on the map.  That's how it's represented on the

11     map.

12        Q.   In 1992, is it your memory that the Serbs controlled that area?

13             MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, if I may, I would object.  We should

14     be careful here.  This is a map, as you rightly said so, Your Honour,

15     based on a census of population, and Vance-Owen Plan is projected on

16     that, so this is not the reality.  This is simply a plan, and the witness

17     might be very easily confused by that.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please break down

19     your questions and ask the witness whether, according to what he knows,

20     area number 4 in 1992 and 1993 was controlled by the Serbs or not,

21     because we know that in area 4 there was a majority of Serbs.  Whether

22     this area was controlled by the Serb Army, I don't know, but maybe he

23     knows.

24             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Sir, if you look at the area on the map that's number 2, and the

Page 38500

 1     number 2 is right in the middle of Banja Luka, in 1992 was this an area

 2     that was predominantly controlled by the Serbs?

 3        A.   Excuse me.  Do you mean in military terms, under the control of

 4     the Serbs?  I don't understand.

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   Sir, you've heard of the Posavina corridor before; correct?

 8        A.   I've never heard of the Posavina corridor.  I don't know what you

 9     mean by it.  The Posavinski corridor, I don't understand.

10        Q.   Okay.  Well, the area between, for the purposes of the question,

11     number 4 and number 2, which is a thin piece of land that is not --

12     mostly in red, and it's number 3, would you consider that to be the

13     Posavina?

14             You have to answer out loud.

15        A.   The area marked with the number 3 on the map which I see before

16     me is one part of Posavina, only one part of it.  Posavina is a much

17     broader concept.

18        Q.   Fair enough.  But in 1992, you were in the 2nd Corps and you were

19     fighting in this particular area; correct?

20        A.   Your Honours, in what area, in Posavina or in the area we marked

21     a little while ago?

22        Q.   My apologies, Mr. Witness.  I'll be very specific.  Let's talk

23     about the area of Brcko.  Do you see that on the map?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And in 1992, was there fighting in Brcko?

Page 38501

 1        A.   Yes, from the time Arkan and his units entered Brcko.

 2        Q.   And in 1992, was there also fighting in Bosanski Brod?

 3        A.   Yes, in 1992 there was also fighting in Bosanski Brod.

 4        Q.   Now, if you can tell us, what was the fighting about?  Or,

 5     rather, strike that.  Who were the parties involved in the fight?

 6        A.   In the beginning, it could hardly be called "combat."  It was a

 7     slaughter of the civilian population.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Witness, let's just back up for a second.  So my first

 9     question is:  Who were the parties involved?

10        A.   The citizens and the paramilitary Serbian forces.

11        Q.   And were the citizens --

12        A.   Excuse me, a correction.  When I say "citizens," I'm referring to

13     unarmed civilians, because it was not actually a fight, it was not

14     combat.  The civilians were simply killed in the streets of Brcko.

15        Q.   Sir, let's look at P10894, and you can open it up in your binder.

16     P10894.  We can read this -- the beginning of this together, and I'm

17     going to ask you some questions as we go along.

18             This is a May 9th, 1993, AP article, and it begins that:

19             "The pipeline from Serbia that has kept Bosnian Serb rebels well

20     supplied spits out its last few drops here in Serb-controlled

21     south-western Croatia.

22             "Those drops mean life to Knin, capital of the Serbs'

23     self-proclaimed Krajina republic in Croatia, and the birthplace of the

24     uprising three years ago that preceded savage [indiscernible] war in

25     Croatia and Bosnia.

Page 38502

 1             "To cut supplies to the Bosnian Serbs, as Yugoslavia has vowed to

 2     do, would weaken this furthest outpost of Serb-held territory in former

 3     Yugoslavia as well.  It would be more vulnerable to Croatian government

 4     forces that are determined to regain control of the land ..."

 5             Let's just stop there.  Here it's talking about a pipeline and

 6     about an area where there was an effort to cut supplies.  Would you agree

 7     with me that that pipeline is in the area of the Posavina that we just

 8     talked about?

 9        A.   Your Honours, from this document I see that mention is made of

10     South-Western Croatia.  It's not about Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11        Q.   Okay, let's go back.  Let's go back to the question that I asked,

12     and I'll read it to you again.

13             Would you agree with me that the pipeline is in the area of the

14     Posavina and that's what we just talked about?  So the question is

15     focusing on pipeline.

16        A.   Your Honour, please excuse me, but for me a pipeline is for oil.

17     What is this about?  I don't understand this at all, and I see that this

18     is about Croatia, as far as I can see.

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, we'll read a little bit more, and then maybe you can

20     determine what this is about.  It goes on to say:

21             "'We call it the corridor of life,' said Vice-Premier

22     Bronco Ljubovic of the Croatia-Serb self-proclaimed government.  He and

23     other Serb leaders spoke to the reporter during a visit Thursday and

24     Friday.  Serb-domination Yugoslavia announced on Thursday under intense

25     international pressure that it would cut off supplies to the Bosnian

Page 38503

 1     Serbs after they once again refused to endorse an international peace

 2     plan.  One of the Bosnian Serbs' main objections to the plan is that it

 3     would force them to turn over to the United Nations a narrow corridor

 4     across Northern Bosnia that supplied Serb-controlled areas centred around

 5     Banja Luka."

 6             Mr. Makar, my question to you is:  This narrow corridor to which

 7     this article refers, is this the corridor that goes across the Posavina?

 8        A.   Your Honours, I can only agree that that was what the Serbs

 9     called it, that's how they referred to it in their news broadcasts.  We

10     did not refer to it by that name.

11        Q.   How did you refer to it?

12        A.   Your Honours, we didn't refer to it at all.  We fought there on a

13     territory, and for a long time in the beginning there was no corridor

14     there for the Serbs.

15        Q.   Okay, Mr. Makar.  I'm sure this is just a misunderstanding

16     between the two of us, but you said that, We did not refer to it by that

17     name.  And then I said, How did you refer to it?  And then you said:

18             "We didn't refer to it at all.  We fought there on a territory,

19     and for a long time from the beginning there was no corridor there for

20     the Serbs."

21             Sir, my question is only:  Do you recognise that there was a

22     corridor in the Posavina area that provided military supplies and other

23     supplies to the Serbs in the western part of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Do you

24     recognise that?

25        A.   Your Honours, that's open to discussion, and it's very hard to

Page 38504

 1     provide a response to that.  We held that territory under artillery fire

 2     throughout the time, so that any passage there would have been highly

 3     risky and there would have been huge casualties, because the 2nd Corps,

 4     since it had insufficient MTS, artillery and tanks, had very strong

 5     artillery support from the forces of Operative Group Bosnian Posavina,

 6     Orasje.  They had strong artillery forces, so one could hardly speak of a

 7     corridor.  It was more like a death road for the other side.

 8        Q.   Fair enough.  Now, on this death road, was there heavy fighting?

 9        A.   Yes, and I was there myself.

10        Q.   All right.  So you have personal knowledge of the fighting going

11     on over this death road?

12        A.   Yes, yes, I do, and unfortunately very bad memories, because

13     dozens of people were killed right next to me.

14        Q.   Okay.  How long were you posted there?

15        A.   The 2nd Corps was always where there was the most fierce

16     fighting, and wherever there was such fighting, forward command posts

17     were established.  Just to clarify to Their Honours and Madam Prosecutor,

18     that would be a group of officers with certain communications equipment

19     which would go to that part of the zone of the 2nd Corps where there was

20     the heaviest fighting in order to be able to get an overview of the

21     situation directly, establish direct communication with the front-line.

22     And I was posted there at the head of one such group of officers

23     throughout the second half of 1992, almost throughout that entire period,

24     and in January 1993.

25        Q.   And even after you left that post, the fighting continued;

Page 38505

 1     correct?

 2        A.   The fighting never stopped there.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let's continue with this article.  It says:

 4             "The 220-mile-long --"

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly read slowly for the sake of the

 6     interpreters and the court reporter, please.

 7             MS. WEST:  Yes, apologies.

 8             "The 220-mile-long corridor runs from Knin, Croatia, across the

 9     top of Bosnia to Serbia proper in the east.  It is narrowest south of

10     Brcko and northern Bosnia near the Serbian Croatian border; and that area

11     has seen heavy fighting throughout the war.  The patchwork of territory

12     seized in a year of gives the Serbs no other way to keep arms, fuel, food

13     and other goods flowing through much of Bosnia."

14             Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that the Serbs used this death

15     road, as you called it, to supply Serbian-held areas in Western

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Krajina?

17        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I don't know what the Serbs did

18     and whether they supplied those areas that you're referring to.  What was

19     important, as far as I was concerned, that anybody trying to pass through

20     that territory, that we targeted them if they attempted to do so.

21        Q.   Would you agree with me that Croatia would have a concern if the

22     Serbs were using a corridor for supplies and fuel and food?

23        A.   Your Honours, I can't really answer that.  I can just give you my

24     opinion, and I don't think my opinion is important, what Croatia thought.

25     I don't know.

Page 38506

 1        Q.   Mr. Makar, you told us about the research you've done about the

 2     war and you've also agreed that you have a general perspective of what

 3     went on in the war, and you left the BiH as a brigadier general.  So are

 4     you telling this Trial Chamber that you have no knowledge of what the

 5     other parties designed or had goals for in the war?

 6        A.   Well, it's not true that I don't know that.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So let's try again.  Would you agree with me that Croatia

 8     would have a concern if the Serbs were using the corridor for supplies

 9     and fuel and food?

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, if I may --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

12             MR. KARNAVAS:  I don't wish to be testifying or anything, but

13     perhaps the question, if it was phrased a little bit tighter.  It's

14     overly broad, concerned for what reason.  And perhaps she could lay the

15     factual predicate so the gentleman could then understand exactly what

16     she's asking the gentleman to opine on.

17             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I believe the gentleman was about to

18     answer.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, try and be as

20     accurate as you can.  I must humbly say that I don't understand what you

21     are getting at.  I don't understand what the purpose of all this is.

22     Maybe things will become clearer over the next few minutes.

23             MS. WEST:

24        Q.   Mr. Makar, go ahead.  I had asked you:

25             "Would you agree with me that the Croatians would have had a

Page 38507

 1     concern if the Serbs had used the corridor for supplies and fuel and

 2     food?"

 3             And you started to answer.  What was your answer?

 4        A.   Your Honours, I tried to answer the Prosecutor, Madam West, in

 5     the first hour of this discussion.  Now, the Prosecutor interrupted me.

 6     If she wishes me to give my own analysis of this matter, then that would

 7     need special preparation on my part.  Now, individual questions as to

 8     what this would mean for Croatia, what wouldn't it mean, I don't think

 9     I'd like to speculate on an individual basis like that.

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do apologise to my

11     learned friend Madam West, but as a question hasn't been asked, I'd like

12     to raise a general objection.

13             We have a witness about the facts, he's here to testify about the

14     facts, and I think that the questions that the Prosecutor is asking him

15     now, as to what he learnt later on and what he investigated later on, are

16     questions which can be asked of an expert witness, but about a fact --

17     but when we have a fact witness, I don't think that is in order, to ask a

18     witness about subsequent knowledge.

19             And then we are delving in politics.  And asked several times by

20     the Judges as well, he said that he can only speak about military

21     matters, so I think -- and I'd like to add that -- and I didn't get up to

22     my feet to object, because I know that the Prosecutor has ample leeway in

23     trying to discredit the witness, but we didn't even approach any of these

24     questions during the examination-in-chief.  So I would like to object and

25     say that these questions go far, far beyond the scope of direct.

Page 38508

 1             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, if I can just --

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, I have quite a lot of

 3     experience in criminal cases over the last few years.  I put these

 4     questions to him to see whether he could provide us with any additional

 5     information on questions of a strategic or political nature.  Every time,

 6     he answered by saying that he was a military man, could only answer very

 7     accurate questions.  This is what he answered.  With the knowledge you

 8     have, you try and get back to this and address his profession, and you're

 9     wasting your time, because he says, I don't know.  Defence counsel then

10     get to their feet and raise objections, so we're wasting our time.  It

11     would be better for you to get straight to the point.  That would be much

12     easier.

13             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, this witness has indicated to us that

14     he was a soldier in the field, and in fact he was in the exact area I'm

15     talking about and he saw people die.  And he says that the only reason he

16     was there were to kill the Serbs going by.  I find it unusual that this

17     gentleman, who not only has given us military information, who has given

18     us plenty of political information with regard to the Croatian Community

19     of Soli, and someone who has done research on war --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I didn't say the

21     Serbs, I never said "Serbs."  I apologise for having to intervene there.

22             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  My point is, Your Honour, I find it

23     difficult for this gentleman to indicate to us that he only had an

24     understanding of the people that he was trying to kill in front of them,

25     whether they be Serbs or not, and not what the importance of this actual

Page 38509

 1     corridor was for.  It's highly unusual that a person of this

 2     intelligence, of this experience, wouldn't know what is going on behind

 3     the fighting, so it seems quite unusual.

 4             And I'll also say the objection that this goes beyond the scope

 5     of the direct seems also to be an unusual objection, certainly in the

 6     cross-examination of this witness.

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  Just very briefly, Your Honours.  This entire

 8     exchange began with the question concerning Croatia, and I assume she

 9     means the Republic of Croatia, and of course which had its own share of

10     problems at the time in and around that area.  I put precisely my

11     objection that she needs to be more specific, exactly what she's trying

12     to get at, and when she's talking about Serbs, she's talking about

13     Croatia, she's talking about this corridor, what is she trying to get at,

14     number 1.  Number 2, why is it relevant to the Prosecution's case, which

15     is probably more important, because yesterday we got a lecture from

16     Mr. Scott, who is behind her, telling us that the Defence is wasting

17     their time, and now it appears that we are either in a fishing expedition

18     or we're dealing with historical matters that have nothing to do with the

19     indictment.

20             MS. WEST:  I think Mr. Karnavas is correct, and if I can answer

21     that question in regard to the relevance, because I think it's something

22     that the Trial Chamber should be aware of.

23             The reason that we -- Mr. Scott reminded the Chamber that there

24     is a concession by the Prosecution that there are certainly places in

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina where the ABiH and the HVO cooperated, it's because

Page 38510

 1     this is the third witness that has come before this Chamber talking about

 2     the Posavina.  The first witness that came before the Chamber talked

 3     about pension documents of Muslim officers who served in the HVO.

 4     Through the cross-examination, we tried to show that that was probably

 5     very true in the Posavina, but that had no bearing and no relevance as to

 6     what was going on in Herceg-Bosna.  And I would submit that I think the

 7     Trial Chamber agreed with that argument by precluding the admission of

 8     those documents into evidence.

 9             The second witness that the Stojic Defence has brought before

10     this Chamber in regard to the Posavina was Mr. Majic, who was the

11     warehouse officer at Grude; and he testified to several documents of MTS

12     going to the Posavina.  And you will remember in that cross-examination,

13     which I did as well, the argument by the Office of the Prosecutor was

14     that any MTS going to the Posavina may as well -- may have happened;

15     however, there was cooperation in the Posavina, as Mr. Buljan, the first

16     pension witness, testified to as well.

17             Now, this is the third witness that has come before you who talks

18     about -- who is an ABiH commander in Tuzla, which is up near the

19     Posavina, who has told you that he was on the front-lines in the

20     Posavina, fighting to ensure that whoever is in front of him didn't get

21     through.

22             Now, I would submit to you that the relevance here is to show

23     that in the Posavina, the HVO and the ABiH cooperated, and so when we

24     hear evidence that the HVO was sending MTS to the 2nd Corps in the

25     Posavina in Tuzla, that's fine, because that makes a lot of sense,

Page 38511

 1     because they were cooperating up there, but in Herceg-Bosna it's a very

 2     different story.  So these have been three witnesses who have all

 3     offered -- proffered the same theory to the Trial Chamber, and the

 4     relevance of this cross-examination is to show that the Posavina is a

 5     very different animal than Herceg-Bosna.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, if I may, just very briefly.

 7             First, throughout the period we've talked -- the Prosecution has

 8     advanced its theory of reverse ethnic cleansing.  That's first and

 9     foremost.  Granted, they talk about ethnic cleansing in Central Bosnia,

10     but of course the overall joint criminal enterprise is to establish a

11     mini Croatian state within Bosnia and Herzegovina of which at some point

12     it can be annexed to Croatia.  This obviously goes against their theory

13     that, one, there is reverse ethnic cleansing or, two, that the

14     Banovina Hrvatska is trying to resurrect itself through the efforts of

15     the authorities in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna with the

16     existence of Croatia.

17             Number 2, we've heard that Croatia, the Republic of Croatia, is

18     sending arms that are going directly into the hands of the ABiH.  This is

19     rather critical, and of course this gentleman hasn't spoken about it, but

20     it is -- it's a known -- it was not much of a secret that there were

21     flights coming in from Croatia to Tuzla with large amounts of arms, with

22     the blessings of the United States, even though it was in contravention

23     of the arms embargo, and to that extent we heard some testimony that came

24     in from Ambassador Albright, but arms were coming in from Iran or

25     financed by Iran, financed by Saudi Arabia.  Again, this goes against

Page 38512

 1     this joint criminal enterprise.  How is it, in the international armed

 2     conflict, how is it --

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Aren't you starting now to plead on the merits?

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  No, I'm not.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yes, I think you are.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  What I'm trying to suggest, Your Honours, what I'm

 7     trying to suggest is this line of questioning, that supposedly is

 8     relevance, is irrelevant; and therefore if we're going to be saving some

 9     time, the best thing to do is to ask Madam Prosecutor to move on.  That's

10     my point.  I'm not trying to plead.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That's a point you can make, definitely.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:  I've just made it, and again my apologies if I

13     overextended in my explanation, but I like to be full.

14             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd just like to

15     respond to what my learned friend just said.

16             I think that this is a simplification of matters, but important

17     for the Defence, because the Prosecutor says he's not challenging the

18     fact that the BH Army cooperated, and the HVO, in the Posavina area.

19     We've just seen that.  All I want to say is that the witness, just not to

20     misunderstand me, the witness hasn't come here or didn't come here at the

21     invitation of the Stojic Defence to speak about Posavina; he just spoke

22     about the weapons which came through that area to the 2nd Corps.  The

23     witness is talking about the 2nd Corps, the broader Tuzla region which

24     was covered by the 2nd Corps.

25             And let me repeat, we had a witness speaking about the BH Army --

Page 38513

 1     the cooperation between the BH Army and the HVO in Posavina and also in

 2     Sarajevo, and now this is the third witness which is speaking about that

 3     cooperation in a third region, and not only about that

 4     cooperation/collaboration, but the fact that the units, and this is a big

 5     difference -- the first witness from Posavina said that there were just

 6     HVO brigades.  The witness from Sarajevo said that there were equal-level

 7     brigades, the HVO and the BH Army, and this witness is saying that the

 8     HVO brigades were directly subordinated to the BH Army.  So we have three

 9     witnesses there --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, the Trial Chamber

11     would like you to stop, because what's said by various people here serves

12     no purpose.

13             I don't know what Mr. Scott wishes to say, but I have the feeling

14     that I'm wasting my time entirely.

15             Mr. Scott.

16             MR. SCOTT:  Well, sorry, Your Honour, if it's wasting time.  The

17     Prosecution deserves to get a fair response to the Defence points raised,

18     and if the Chamber wants to cut off the Defence, they can do so.

19             The Prosecution is repeatedly --

20             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour --

21             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Counsel.

22             What the Prosecution has repeated said was we've raised this

23     several times, and Ms. West is completely right, there's been a

24     presentation of at least three witnesses on this area, the Posavina and

25     this far north-east corner of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The Prosecution has

Page 38514

 1     indicated to you that we view this, this evidence, as completely or at

 2     least largely highly irrelevant.  We said that to you yesterday.  It's

 3     never been disputed.  The Chamber didn't cut it off, the Chamber didn't

 4     preclude it.  If the Chamber wants to save time, it might preclude

 5     irrelevant areas of inquiry.  Having not precluded it, having not

 6     precluded it, then it's only fair for the Prosecution to have the

 7     opportunity that it not be mischaracterised.  If it's going to be

 8     introduced, then it better be introduced accurately.

 9             And I'll go further than Ms. West.  It is disingenuous for this

10     witness to sit here, based on everything he's told us, and pretend that

11     he doesn't know the importance of a military corridor of which supplies

12     went into North-West Bosnia and the Knin area.  It's absolutely

13     disingenuous, and I'm sorry, but that's exactly what it is, for him to

14     sit here and tell us that in light of his expertise and other things he's

15     said, and he was brought here under false pretences in terms of the

16     summary that was provided.  There wasn't one word in the summary about

17     politics, about Soli, about Herceg-Bosna, completely.  It was under

18     completely false pretences that those subjects were intervened, and --

19             MR KHAN:  Mr. President --

20             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me.  I'm not finished, Counsel.  I'm not

21     finished, Counsel.

22             So for counsel to introduce these issues and then have the

23     gall -- the gall to stand up and object to Ms. West's cross-examination

24     which is entirely appropriate, is completely beyond the pale.

25             MR. KHAN:  Mr. President, it seems rather unfortunate that my

Page 38515

 1     learned friend was stopped -- my learned leader Ms. Nozica was stopped

 2     whilst she was on her feet and she was addressing the Court, because,

 3     Mr. President, quite rightly you said that perhaps this is going nowhere

 4     and is a waste of the Court's time.  But in compliance with that, she sat

 5     down, and my learned friend Mr. Scott, who had been standing throughout

 6     much of her submission, was given the chance to carry on.

 7             For the record, I am rather incredulous at the amount of

 8     invective that this courtroom seems to constantly generate.  It is

 9     something that is normally rather -- one disassociates from the

10     traditions of the Bar, in which the facts are supposed to speak volumes,

11     not the invective or the passions of counsel who are seeking to represent

12     either the Prosecution or the Defence.

13             But to assert, while the witness is in the box -- in effect to

14     give a closing speech to castigate the integrity not only of the witness

15     in the box but also of the Defence team that has brought him here, to say

16     that he's been brought under false pretences, is not only insulting and

17     unnecessary, it is not in the highest traditions of the criminal bar as

18     far as I have experienced it.

19             Your Honour, the other matter, for the record.  At one point or

20     the other, Your Honours have to police this courtroom and prevent

21     counsel -- all sides, all of us commit excesses, I agree, but must make

22     counsel tow the line, rather than giving vent to rhetoric which is not

23     based in reality.

24             My learned friend, at page 50, line 2 and 3, pleads again that

25     the Prosecution deserves a fair response.  Well, let's actually hear.  My

Page 38516

 1     learned friend, who is taking this witness, is a very experienced

 2     prosecutor.  She was given a chance to respond to the objection that was

 3     raised, and she gave a very detailed response to Your Honours.  So,

 4     Your Honours, for Mr. Scott then to stand up and say that the Prosecution

 5     deserves a fair response, well, it's not normal.  Normally, there is an

 6     objection and a response and a decision.  And in this case, my learned

 7     friend was given a full opportunity to respond before the senior trial

 8     attorney, Mr. Scott, took the floor.  So to pretend and say on the

 9     record, in a mish-mash of other invective against a Defence team and the

10     witness on the stand and under oath, is simply not based in reality, and

11     I would ask Your Honours to call counsel to account and ask counsel on

12     all sides to try to reduce the heat that this courtroom generates and

13     focus on issues that are in dispute.

14             Your Honours, my learned friend Ms. Nozica outlined an objection

15     at the outset that this area was not -- did not arise from

16     examination-in-chief, and I would ask ordinarily the cross-examining

17     party seeks to impugn the evidence that has been called in chief.  Now,

18     of course, the Rules do allow for relevant evidence to be elicited from a

19     witness even if areas were not covered in chief.  Your Honours, the

20     objection was this area is not relevant from this particular witness, for

21     the reasons that have been gone into regarding his expertise and his

22     knowledge of the questions that my learned friend is seeking to elicit

23     from him.

24             Your Honours, I do object to the tone of my learned friend's

25     objection, Mr. Scott's objection, and the way he's characterized the

Page 38517

 1     Defence conduct.  It is simply is not justified and it was unnecessary.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's try and calm things down.

 3             Witness, you were talking about the Posavina, and if you look at

 4     map 10068, you can look at the map on the screen, P10068, we can see

 5     where it's Tuzla, we can see this corridor, and you understood that I

 6     wasted 20 minutes of my time trying to listen to everyone; so I would

 7     like to focus on the documents and on what a witness is testifying, a

 8     witness who had a responsible position within this 2nd Corps.

 9             Witness, if you needed supplies sent to the Posavina, given the

10     borders, did they have to go via Grude or Tuzla, or could they not

11     receive weapons directly from Croatia, because we are looking at the

12     border with Croatia?  Why did you have to go via the 2nd Corps?  What

13     would be the purpose of that, to go through you, in order to help the

14     Posavina-based units, given that they are near the border with Croatia?

15     Do you have an explanation to that or don't you have any?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I'll

17     be very concrete in answering your very concrete question, with every

18     respect for the Prosecutor, Madam Kimberley West, who asked her questions

19     with high responsibility, but not with precision perhaps, as far as I'm

20     concerned.  And I don't wish -- but I must say that I don't wish to

21     communicate with Mr. Scott anymore, because I take offence at his

22     intervention.

23             Now, to answer your question --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, do not be offended.

25     I'm asking you a technical question, so please answer to my question,

Page 38518

 1     which is of a technical nature.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because, Witness, these are the

 4     Judges that are going to rule, and it's not because one of the parties at

 5     a trial intervenes that you can take this for granted for under

 6     sentencing.  So please disregard what has been said by one or the other

 7     and please answer my question.

 8             Do you think that it was necessary, in order to help the

 9     Posavina, to go through a logistical support that was rather complex with

10     MTS transiting via Grude and with all the transport issues that we've

11     heard, whereas I can see that there is a very close border to Croatia and

12     it seems that nothing stops the Croat Army to provide the weapons

13     directly to the Croat units that were based there?  So since you were on

14     the ground, what is your take on this?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The units that you're referring to,

16     Your Honour, did receive their MTS in that way.  That was never in

17     question.  And from that area, and yesterday we saw this on the basis of

18     documents, we did receive certain material from there, so I don't see how

19     that is contentious at all.  We discussed that yesterday, and I think I

20     explained it sufficiently.  If need be, I can explain it again in greater

21     detail.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And the question of

23     the corridor:  According to you, was it of a strategic nature or was

24     there no military point to having this corridor?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Judge Antonetti, it

Page 38519

 1     wasn't -- why wasn't it that important?  Because it was only part of the

 2     territory where we went into combat.  If we're talking about a supplies

 3     corridor, then the most important corridor was the one towards the south

 4     or, rather, towards the area which we explained yesterday, the HVO in

 5     Herceg-Bosna, because we received our supplies from that area mostly, and

 6     I explained this yesterday.  And that is why it was important for us.

 7     And I don't know if time allows me to go into an explanation, but that

 8     route was important to us, and we had that route, but it was highly

 9     sensitive, in military terms, and we had to maintain it.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] From a military point of view,

11     you are a military man, but there will be other witnesses of a military

12     background and we can come back to this question:  The municipalities of

13     the Posavina that we can see on the map, they are in blue, which is on

14     the top corner of the map.  In order to defend themselves, did they

15     really need the logistical support of the HVO, or perhaps even from the

16     HVO and the ABiH, against the Serbs or were they in a position to fight

17     or fend for themselves, given that they were very close to Croatia and

18     Croatia would not have seen a direct attack from the Serbs from Posavina?

19     Were they in a position to defend themselves without getting any supply

20     from the HVO or from the HVO and the ABiH?  So, in other words, were they

21     self-sufficient enough?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're referring to the part of

23     Posavina on the map - we can have a look at it - Odzak, Orasje, that

24     area, the northern part along the Sava River, that's what we're referring

25     to, not the part under the territory of the 2nd Corps.  They could have

Page 38520

 1     got their supplies that way, if that's what -- the territory you're

 2     referring to.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And the part of the

 4     Posavina which was under the auspices of the 2nd Corps, did they need you

 5     there?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon, but I don't

 7     understand.  Who needed me, who needed us, the territory that we were

 8     referring to or what?

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] According to the map, you can

10     see that in the Posavina --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- you have an ethnic make-up

13     which shows that it's -- the majority of Croats is in the north, and then

14     you have mixed ethnicity; there are Serbs and there are some areas where

15     you have Muslims as well.  I can assume that the Croats in the lower

16     parts of the map are in the minorities.  We know that the 2nd Corps, of

17     which you were a part, was active very close to the Posavina border, so

18     my question is whether your action was there to protect the few Croats

19     that were in those areas or whether there was another purpose.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours, we had a

21     clear goal.  I spoke about it yesterday, but I will repeat.

22             The Command of the 2nd Corps and the 2nd Corps fully embraced the

23     political decision issued by the Presidency, which was the platform for

24     the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Throughout the war, we fought to

25     defend the people on the territory for which the 2nd Corps was

Page 38521

 1     responsible, and we did not even think about who was of what ethnicity

 2     because that would have been contrary to the platform issued by the

 3     Presidency, which was our political leadership and to our personal

 4     beliefs.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 6             Ms. West, you have the floor.  Perhaps my questions have sort of

 7     quietened down the room.

 8             Yes, General Petkovic.

 9             THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good

10     afternoon.

11             I beg to ask you to put a technical question to the witness.  Did

12     the 2nd Corps border on the Operative Zone of Bosnian Posavina in one

13     part or was the Army of Republika Srpska separating the two and there

14     were no points where they touched?  So did the 2nd Corps border on the

15     operative zone or was the Republika Srpska Army between them?  And,

16     secondly, was his corps, the northern border of it was in Bosnian

17     Posavina, so was it defending the Bosnian Posavina?  And that is a

18     technical question which we keep moving around.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, yes, indeed

20     this is a question that I could have asked, but it didn't come to mind.

21             So my question is the following:  I was wondering whether the

22     area of activity of the 2nd Corps was bordering the Posavina, whether

23     it's the northern part or the southern part, or was there the

24     Republika Srpska that was in between, through its paramilitary units?  So

25     this is a purely technical question, and I'm sure you can answer this

Page 38522

 1     type of question.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I'm

 3     willing to respond to specific and clear questions.

 4             Between these two territories, the Operative Zone of Bosnian

 5     Posavina, which was right next to the Sava River, and the zone of the

 6     2nd Corps, were physically linked in the beginning of the war, and I

 7     personally passed through there.  Later on, we were partly physically cut

 8     off, and in some periods of the war we managed to have links, but most of

 9     the time we were not able to.  However, in military terms, we had

10     constant communications, in that they supported us with artillery, at our

11     request, as if they had been part of our units.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13             When you say "in the second part," or "at a second stage," so

14     from which point in time did you no longer have direct contact with the

15     troops based in the Posavina area?  You said at the beginning you had

16     direct contact, and then you said, We no longer had it.  So what is the

17     exact date line?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't be precise

19     about the date because this fluctuated, it changed from day to day, but

20     towards the end of 1992, sometime in October or November, this -- we were

21     cut off from each other.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  If I understand

23     correctly, and it was a follow-up -- it's a follow-up to the question

24     from General Petkovic, you said there were links, it was through

25     artillery support, which means that you were shelling some positions in

Page 38523

 1     order to find a way for units to go through in order to have some sort of

 2     a link?  I don't know, I wasn't there, but I'm sure that you are in a

 3     much better position to tell me.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely so.

 5     Throughout all that time, we received artillery support from the north,

 6     and we also had jointly-planned combat activities where they were active

 7     from the north side and we from the south side, and at a certain point in

 8     time we joined up again.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when did you join up,

10     roughly?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be precise about the date,

12     and this was interrupted again.  It didn't last long.  So when we joined

13     up physically, it didn't last long.  We were cut off again after that.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question, because we

15     could spend hours on this.  A technical type of question.  The 2nd Corps,

16     which is under the ABiH, what was its strategic interest to lend a hand

17     through the Posavina area?  My question may be of a political nature.  If

18     you are not in a position to answer, don't answer.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the area of Bosnian

20     Posavina, in military terms, was covered by the brigades as follows:  The

21     103rd, 4th, 6th or, rather, several brigades which were up there of the

22     HVO, and as part of the 2nd Corps there was brigades of the HVO and the

23     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24             In military terms, our goal was to join up physically.  That was

25     our strategic goal.  Our operative goal in that period in 1992 and 1993

Page 38524

 1     was to defend all the territory we held because at that time the enemy

 2     forces were technically superior and there was nothing else we could do.

 3     Later on, our strategic goal was to join up these territories, when we

 4     went on the offensive in the area of Gradacac, and especially in the area

 5     of Brcko.  Gradually, we took the strategic initiative and took parts of

 6     the territory.  Had the war not ended, we would probably have managed to

 7     link up those territories.

 8             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Just an intervention.

 9     In the text, the witness said, on page 59 and 60, lines 25 and 1, the

10     witness started enumerating brigades and he said "also in the 2nd Corps

11     there were brigades."  He didn't say "of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

12     He said "of the HVO."

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see that.  It hasn't been

14     entered.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, please sit

16     down, unless there is something different from Ms. Nozica.  Oh, please go

17     if that's the reason you stood up.

18             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I would like to suggest that we give the floor

19     back to the Prosecution and continue with the cross-examination.  It is

20     really now becoming more and more in a way, beyond our control.

21             Thank you.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, you have the floor.

23             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24        Q.   Sir, you've just indicated that in this particular area, you were

25     partially -- I think you said partially physically cut off.  You would

Page 38525

 1     agree with me that you were partially physically cut off by the Serbs;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And during those times when you were cut off, the Serbs

 5     controlled that particular area; correct?

 6        A.   No, that's not correct.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So when you were cut off and there was the absence of the

 8     ABiH and the absence of the HVO and the absence of the HV, what was left

 9     were Serb forces; right?

10        A.   Well, it's not correct, because in military terms, and I can only

11     give you a military response, you can't speak of controlling a territory

12     if you cannot keep it by military means, and we had such artillery and

13     other power that they were not able to control that territory.  They

14     passed through, but only at great risk to themselves.

15        Q.   Exactly.  Mr. Witness, the Serbs were able to pass through; isn't

16     that right?

17        A.   Yes, yes, that's correct.

18        Q.   And when they passed through, they carried supplies with them,

19     did they not?

20        A.   It was mostly their military units attempting to pass through,

21     which we stopped by artillery.  Sometimes they managed to get through.

22        Q.   Thank you.  So sometimes they managed to get through.

23             And we're going to go back to P10894, and this is the article we

24     were looking at earlier, and I think we got about halfway.  And let's

25     start from -- it's 10894.

Page 38526

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   "The 220-mile-long corridor runs from Knin, Croatia, across the

 3     top of Bosnia to Serbia proper in the east.  It is narrowest south of

 4     Brcko, in northern Bosnia near the Serbian-Croatian border.  That area

 5     has been the scene of heavy fighting throughout the war.

 6             "The patchwork of territory seized in a year of war gives the

 7     Serbs no other way to keep arms, fuel, food, and other goods flowing

 8     through much of Bosnia, but the corridor also supplies adjacent

 9     Serb-controlled Croatia.

10             "The nearly bare shots along King Peter the Liberator Street in

11     Knin reveals shoes, clothing, household products and many other supplies

12     from Serbia.  The UN High Commissioner for refugees sends eight convoys

13     to the Serbs in Knin but they fall short of demand.  It is widely

14     believed that the vital fuel and military supplies are also shipped to

15     Knin along that route.  Buses from Knin regularly travel along the narrow

16     corridor to reach Belgrade.  The corridor is the only access most people

17     in Knin have to the outside world."

18             Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that the corridor that ran

19     through this area that we have been talking about this afternoon was a

20     corridor that the Serbs used to send supplies from Serbia in the east to

21     the area they controlled in Western Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

22     Krajina?

23        A.   If you say so, I have to agree with you.  I don't know that for

24     certain.

25        Q.   Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that part of the reason that

Page 38527

 1     the ABiH was so concerned about this corridor was that the ABiH did not

 2     want the Serbs to have the ability to supply their troops in

 3     Western Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 4        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, the aim of the 2nd Corps was to

 5     prevent passage through this corridor, as the Prosecutor calls it, of

 6     military equipment and weapons for the Serbs.  That was the only supplies

 7     this referred to.  I am saying this because we did not target buses, if

 8     we saw them, whereas one of our buses, carrying our civilians, was hit in

 9     another area.

10        Q.   Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that part of the reason that

11     Croatia was so concerned about this corridor was that Croatia did not

12     want to see the Serbs have the ability to supply itself in

13     Western Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the Krajina?

14        A.   When Madam Prosecutor refers to the Krajina, does she mean the

15     Krajina in Croatia?

16        Q.   I do.

17        A.   I don't think that's correct.  The Krajina in Croatia, there were

18     also Croat citizens there, and I don't think the Croatian authorities

19     would be concerned about clothes or food reaching them, but certainly if

20     this refers to weapons, then yes.

21        Q.   So it's your testimony that Croatia would be concerned about the

22     Serbs supplying itself with military weapons in the Krajina through this

23     corridor?

24        A.   Of course.  The USA was concerned when Britain blocked the supply

25     of weapons to the USA during the War of Independence.  Every country

Page 38528

 1     defends its own.

 2             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to assist.  I

 3     think there will soon be a misunderstanding.

 4             I only wish to draw attention to the following:  In the territory

 5     of Yugoslavia, both in Bosnia and in Croatia, there are three areas

 6     referred to as the Krajina, colloquially, and they cover several

 7     territories.  I don't want to testify, so I won't go into it any further.

 8     So the Prosecutor always has to specify what Krajina, the Eastern Krajina

 9     of the Serbs in Croatia, here, or in the south of Croatia there, or the

10     Serbian autonomous provinces which were also referred to as the Krajina

11     in this part of Bosnia.  Otherwise, I can see this leading to a

12     misunderstanding.  The witness specifically referred to a specific

13     Krajina, but it's the wrong Krajina.

14             However, I just wanted to prevent our wasting time.

15             MS. WEST:  Thank you, sir.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, the questions that

17     you have raised were very relevant and of high interest to us, but it

18     would have been advisable as well, given that you touched upon the

19     Krajina, that we have a map where we can see the Serbian Krajina in

20     Croatia, in order to see where it's located, and in relation to the

21     Posavina, because we can see what is at stake here, and the 2nd Corps was

22     blocking supply of the Serbs through this infamous corridor through zone

23     number 2.  That we can see on the map.  But I had another question,

24     actually.

25             I was wondering whether this supply could not go through the

Page 38529

 1     Croatian Krajina, namely, through the top, in order to arrive at the

 2     level of zone 2, the northern part of zone 2, without going through this

 3     corridor.  But given that we do not have the map, it's difficult to

 4     really make sense.

 5             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I didn't want to interrupt you, but the

 6     next exhibit is a map, if we can go to P10901.  I think it will come up

 7     on the screen in front of you.

 8        Q.   Okay.  So we can get our bearings, can you see Slavonski Brod,

 9     which is -- do you recognise Slavonski Brod?

10        A.   Yes, I can see it.

11        Q.   And so that's the area, if you can go straight up from the word

12     "Herzegovina," go directly north, it's the big municipality in Croatia;

13     correct?

14        A.   I didn't understand.  What area are you referring to,

15     Slavonski Brod?

16        Q.   Let me ask another question.  Just south of Slavonski Brod,

17     although we can't see it, is that the area of the Posavina?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   All right.  So where on this map would be the Posavina in Bosnia

20     and Herzegovina?

21        A.   Please follow what I'm saying.  From the border with Serbia,

22     along the entire length of the River Sava, Zupanja, Slavonski Brod,

23     Nova Gradiska, and further on, all that is the Posavina, not south of

24     Slavonski Brod, but all of that is Posavina, geographically.  I think the

25     problem here is in terminology.  We are not on the same wavelength when

Page 38530

 1     we are talking about the Posavina area.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Let's talk about the Krajina.  The Serbian -- I'm speaking

 3     specifically about the Serbian Krajina in the area of Croatia.  So you

 4     see there's an area that's outlined in red, and there are two areas, in

 5     fact, but I'm looking at the one on the left.  Mr. Witness, do you see

 6     that area outlined in red on the left side of the map?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes, I'm looking at it.

 8        Q.   And would you agree with me, for all intents and purposes, that

 9     that is considered the Serbian Krajina or the Serbian part of the -- the

10     Krajina that they controlled for a period of time in Croatia?

11        A.   I don't agree with that.

12        Q.   Okay.  Do you see the town or the municipality Knin at the bottom

13     of it, in the southern part of this red outlined area?

14        A.   Yes, I see it.  I see it, yes.

15        Q.   And you remember the article that we just read was based out of

16     Knin; right?

17        A.   Yes, we read a part of that article.

18        Q.   And that was a Serbian-controlled area; correct?

19        A.   Conditionally speaking, yes, I agree.

20        Q.   Okay.  So to get -- if you were to try to move supplies from

21     Serbia, Serbia proper over in the east, and you were to go directly

22     across the northern Bosnia-Herzegovina, you would be going through the

23     Posavina; right?

24             You have to answer verbally, you have to answer out loud.

25        A.   I would never do that, as a soldier.

Page 38531

 1        Q.   Okay.  That's not my question.  During 1992 and 1993, when you

 2     spoke about the Serbs moving supplies, or equipment, or whatever you want

 3     to call it they were moving, they were coming from Serbia, in the east,

 4     and they were going through the Posavina; correct?

 5             Mr. Makar, you have to answer verbally.

 6        A.   In part, that's correct, what they managed to get through, yes.

 7        Q.   All right.  So with what they ended up getting through, if they

 8     had continued to go west, they would have ended up in the Serbian

 9     Krajina; is that right?

10        A.   Well, had there not been a war, yes, that would have been

11     correct, but in wartime very often they didn't get there.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, what would you

13     like to tell us?

14             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is not

15     something called the Serbian Krajina.  There is the military Krajina

16     established by the Austro-Hungarian empire as a belt defending it from

17     the Ottomans who were trying to reach from Vienna.  It was called the

18     military Krajina, it was always called that.  Never was it called the

19     Serbian Krajina.  It was occupied territory of the Republic of Croatia.

20     So at this Court, we have to respect something that is respected by all

21     legal norms.  It was an occupied part of the Republic of Croatia referred

22     to as the Krajina because it used to be called the military Krajina or

23     the military border belt.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  Your point has been

25     recorded.

Page 38532

 1             Ms. West, I believe that through your questions, you're trying to

 2     establish that in order to supply Knin, the Serbs had to go through

 3     Posavina.  So, Mr. Witness, the question put by Ms. West is technically

 4     absolutely right, so what is your answer?  When you look at this map --

 5     just look at the map.  So what is your answer?  Is it true, is it wrong,

 6     was it possible, impossible?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In military terms, I think it's not

 8     correct.  The reason they persistently tried to go there was not because

 9     they were stupid.  We had the same situation in Bihac and in Srebrenica.

10     We even sent supplies by helicopter.  The map itself shows that, in

11     military terms, that was easily possible.  You could fly over fast by

12     helicopter from one Krajina on the east of Croatia to the other Krajina

13     and they would already be there.  We did that and flew over enemy

14     territory.  It would have been much easier for them, had they done that.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, all right.  Please

16     proceed, Ms. West.

17             MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, I think it is important to correct the

18     transcript.  I don't know whether my colleague noticed.  The witness

19     said -- I will put it in Croatia.

20             [Interpretation] Page 68, line 11, the witness said, as I

21     understood it in Croatia, the reason they insisted on going that way was

22     because they were stupid.  It says "because they were not stupid."  They

23     were not stupid, but the "not" is superfluous here.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine, fine.

25             Ms. West.

Page 38533

 1             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Earlier, the President asked you about supply routes to the ABiH,

 3     and you had indicated that the most important supply corridor came from

 4     the south.  If we can go back to P10068, the other map of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, I'd like to go over that route with you.  It's

 6     P10068, map 39.

 7             You've testified -- you testified -- you testified on direct that

 8     a number of supplies came from the Grude Logistics Base.  Do you remember

 9     that testimony?

10        A.   Yes, I said that; not a number of supplies, but a lot of

11     supplies, a lot of the MTS that we received.

12        Q.   Good enough.  Now, Grude is on the map -- if we see the number 8

13     and go west a little bit, is that the Grude where the logistics base is?

14     That's Grude; correct?

15        A.   Yes, I can see that.

16        Q.   Okay.  To get from Grude with these supplies to where you were --

17     or, rather, did these supplies go to Tuzla or did they go to various

18     places under the command of the 2nd Corps?

19        A.   It couldn't have been sent to other places if it came to the

20     2nd Corps zone.  There was only one place where they could enter, both

21     people and MTS, and we had control of that area, there was a check-point.

22     So it could only have arrived to the 2nd Corps; and if there was supplies

23     for the civilians, food and other things, then they would come to the

24     Tuzla district, to the Logistics Centre of the Tuzla district.

25        Q.   Where was the check-point?

Page 38534

 1        A.   Roughly, on the southern border of the 2nd Corps zone, at the

 2     entrance.  And I marked a it in on the previous map, the 2nd Corps zone,

 3     so I can't be precise, looking at this map here.  But, anyway, on the

 4     southern borders of the 2nd Corps zone.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Can you describe for the Chamber the route or the

 6     convoy -- or the material would take when going from Grude to the

 7     southern border that you talk about?

 8        A.   Yes, that's right.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us, what was the route?

10        A.   Ah, I see, what route.

11        Q.   You can even use the pen and mark it on this map, and we'll ask

12     for another IC number.

13             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks] Well, that's it, roughly.

15     It's not a very precise map.

16             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, the difficulty with the accused speaking

17     in B/C/S while this witness is testifying is that, clearly, the

18     Prosecutors do not know what he's saying, so I would ask Mr. Praljak to

19     repeat what he said so it can be translated.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, please don't speak

21     up.  I understand that you are objecting because of this map.  Maybe I'm

22     mistaken.

23             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I've

24     provided at least ten good maps, military, geographic or whatever.  I've

25     given them to the Prosecutor.  So why have a bad ethnic map to determine

Page 38535

 1     a route?  I think that the Prosecution should have the seriousness to

 2     provide proper maps, good maps.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  Well, Ms. West,

 4     yes, indeed, we had a whole series of maps, so it might have been more

 5     helpful to have some maps with the various routes.  But all right, all

 6     right, okay, you don't have it, so please ask him to indicate which is

 7     the route that was followed.

 8             MS. WEST:

 9        Q.   So, sir, you have put a green line on this map, and it looks

10     like -- where exactly did you start that green line, in what

11     municipality?

12        A.   Well, it's very difficult, as Mr. Praljak said, did mark it on

13     this map of municipalities, because it's not a road map.  I'd be able to

14     show it better on a road map, but it went from the logistics base at

15     Grude.  I can't be precise in marking that exact point.  But, anyway, it

16     went from the logistics base in Grude, and I've started it where it says

17     "Grude," but that's highly imprecise.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, based on a map of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina, there seems to be two possible routes to supply;

20     either through [indiscernible], Bihac, Kacin [phoen], Olovo and Tuzla, or

21     through Jablanica, Prozor, Bugojno, Travnik, Zenica, Maglaj, Doboj.  So

22     which was the most practical route?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I took a route with the last convoy

24     that I led.  I went Grude, Jablanica, Prozor, Gornji Vakuf -- just a

25     moment -- Visoko, Breza, and entered the corps's zone using that route,

Page 38536

 1     that direction.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is this by small roads or wide,

 3     main roads?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, during the war, for

 5     bringing in the MTS we used routes which were good roads, in part, mostly

 6     in the first part of the route, that is to say, from Grude to 'round

 7     about, well, up to Kresevo, roughly speaking; but we also had roads that

 8     we had to make ourselves, our own routes through forests.  We used forest

 9     routes for transport, turning them into roads for transport, and we had

10     great difficulties in the Olovo region.  And, of course, if I had a

11     better map, I'd be able to explain it better.  Where it says "Olovo," if

12     you could focus on that area, in that area we had to build a whole new

13     road right up to, roughly speaking, the Kladanj municipality.  So in

14     general terms, we can say that the first stage of the route was good,

15     good roads, whereas afterwards the roads were bad and some of the routes

16     from Olovo to Kladanj were under constant fire from the enemy forces,

17     artillery and all the rest of it.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Ms. West, you wanted him

19     to draw this route.  I suppose you're trying to make a point.

20             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think he's adequately

21     answered it.  Thank you.

22             I think we're having the break soon, but if I can just have one

23     more question.

24        Q.   Mr. Makar, you have indicated that the end of 1992, I think you

25     said into the beginning of January of 1993, that's when you were on the

Page 38537

 1     front-lines in the Posavina.  Is that right, was that your testimony?

 2        A.   Your Honours, I was there precisely as the Prosecutor just said,

 3     at the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993.

 4        Q.   And while there, did you fight alongside HVO soldiers?

 5        A.   Very often.

 6        Q.   Did you also fight alongside HV soldiers?

 7        A.   There were no members of the Croatian Army in the 2nd Corps,

 8     except for individual cases.

 9        Q.   So putting aside HV soldiers in the 2nd Corps, were there HV

10     soldiers in the area fighting as well?

11        A.   I can clarify this, and we discussed it, I think, towards the end

12     of the previous hour.  Dr. Hudolin was sent from the Croatian Army, so he

13     was there, and I could give you other individuals.  There was

14     Mr. Turkovic, Ivan Turkovic, and he lives in Croatia, in Novska now.

15        Q.   That's not my question.  Let's focus on this question and you can

16     answer it, if you can.  Did the Croatian -- did Croatia also send

17     soldiers to this area to fight the Serbs?

18        A.   No, the Croatian Army was not -- never sent soldiers to the 2nd

19     Corps area.  Members of the Croatian Army, you mean.  I think I

20     understood you correctly; right?

21        Q.   You did.  Let me ask you another question, a follow-up.  Putting

22     aside the 2nd Corps area, you spoke earlier about the northern side of

23     the Posavina, and on the map we can't see it here, but those would be

24     those municipalities that were blue, and right north of that was Croatia.

25     Did Croatia, the Republic of Croatia, send HV soldiers down from the

Page 38538

 1     north to help in this area?

 2        A.   I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question.  Why would

 3     Croatia send HVO soldiers?  Did I understand you to say that?  There were

 4     no HVO soldiers in Croatia.  The HVO was in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   That may have been my mistake.  Did Croatia send HV soldiers,

 6     Croatian soldiers, to the area from the north?

 7        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I can say with great reliability

 8     that Croatia did not send soldiers of the Croatian Army, and I emphasise

 9     "the Croatian Army" to the 2nd Corps.  Now, I don't know about other

10     areas.

11        Q.   Okay.  So you're telling us, in regard to other areas, you don't

12     know whether Croatia sent HV soldiers.  You only are testifying in regard

13     to the 2nd Corps; correct?

14        A.   Yes, precisely.

15             MS. WEST:  This might be a good time for a break.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  We're going to take

17     a ten-minute break -- 20, sorry.

18                           --- Recess taken at 5.52 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, Ms. West.

21             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Mr. Makar, yesterday you testified in regard to the command of

23     the HVO units in the 2nd Corps, and your testimony was, and I quote:

24             "The HVO units acted under the command of the 2nd Corps."

25             And you said:

Page 38539

 1             "Let me clarify.  These units were in the chain of command in all

 2     operative and combat issues and combat activities.  As regards logistics,

 3     organisation and the establishment of those units, the appointment of

 4     officers to those units, that were under the command of the Main Staff of

 5     the HVO."

 6             Do you remember that testimony?

 7        A.   Yes, I do remember.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, since we still have

 9     the map on the screen, would you like to have an IC number?  I don't

10     think we did this before the break.  So, Mr. Registrar.

11             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The second marked version of

13     P10068 shall be given Exhibit IC965.  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

15        Q.   So, sir, do you remember that testimony?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Okay.  And so that means that the HVO units and the

18     ABiH 2nd Corps took their operative orders from the ABiH Command?  In

19     other words, sometimes they took them from you; correct?

20        A.   No, that's not correct.

21        Q.   Okay.  When it came to logistics and administrative issues, is it

22     your testimony that they took orders from the HVO Main Staff in Mostar?

23        A.   Your Honour, I don't know whether I said that, but in the

24     previous quotation mention is made that those units received orders from

25     the BH Army, and I said yesterday that they received orders from the

Page 38540

 1     Command of the 2nd Corps.  And the Prosecutor asked me whether they

 2     received orders from me.  Well, not from me, because I wasn't the corps

 3     commander but the Chief of Staff.  So that's the correction I wanted to

 4     make.

 5        Q.   What was the time-period in which this model was used?  Give us a

 6     time-frame.

 7        A.   From 1992 to 1994, throughout the war.

 8        Q.   All right, Mr. Makar --

 9        A.   And after the war, the organisation remained the same, roughly.

10        Q.   Sir, let's compare the relationship between the HVO and the ABiH

11     in the 2nd Corps with the relationship between the ABiH and the HVO in

12     Herceg-Bosna.  Now, you testified yesterday that you travelled to

13     Herceg-Bosna three times in early 1993; correct?

14        A.   That's right, Your Honours.

15        Q.   And the first time was, I believe, the end of February.  The

16     second time was the end of March.  The third time was the very beginning

17     of May; is that right?

18        A.   That's right.

19        Q.   And while there, did you have contact with your counterparts in

20     the ABiH?

21        A.   Madam Prosecutor, I don't understand when you use the term

22     "counterpart in the BH Army."  Could you rephrase your question?

23        Q.   While you were there, did you talk to anybody in the BH Army in,

24     say, Mostar?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 38541

 1        Q.   Okay.  And with whom did you talk?

 2        A.   With the commander and officers of the 4th Corps who was in

 3     Mostar.

 4        Q.   Did you have those conversations on only one occasion of those

 5     three trips or all three trips?

 6        A.   Not just once.  It was certainly twice, maybe three times.  I'm

 7     not quite sure.

 8        Q.   Now, the model that you used in the 2nd Corps, and when I say

 9     "model," I mean that the HVO was subordinate to the ABiH for operational

10     matters, but went to the Main Staff for logistic matters; did you

11     understand that was something that was being used in Herceg-Bosna as

12     well?

13        A.   I'll answer the question, but I'd like to correct something once

14     again.  The HVO was not subordinate to the BH Army but to the 2nd corps

15     command, and now I'm talking about the 2nd corps command.  Now, in

16     answer -- to answer your question, as for relations between the BH Army

17     and the Croatian Defence Council in Mostar, I cannot make an assessment

18     or give an evaluation of that because I spent too short a time down

19     there.  But if you want to hear my answer, those weren't the kind of

20     relations they had.

21        Q.   Can you tell us what type of relationships they had?

22        A.   Well, the 4th Corps was under the command of the BH Army.  That's

23     quite clear.  And the units of the HVO were under the command of the

24     Main Staff.  So it wasn't like it was on our territory.

25        Q.   And so you would agree with me that on the situation in

Page 38542

 1     Herceg-Bosna in 19 -- end of 1992 and throughout 1993 was quite different

 2     than the situation for the 2nd Corps at the end of 1992 and 1993?

 3        A.   Your Honours, I'd like that question to be clarified.  What

 4     situation do you have in mind, the military situation or what?  I'm not

 5     sure I understand your question.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I will clarify that.  In 1993, did you

 7     understand that there were tensions between the HVO and the ABiH?

 8        A.   Well, in the sense of your question, the answer would be "no."

 9     But if you want to rephrase that, I'll do my best to answer.

10        Q.   No.  Let me ask you another question:  In 1993, were there

11     tensions between the HVO, under the 2nd corps command, and the ABiH?

12        A.   Well, this isn't a very precise question either, but I think my

13     answer is "no."  No, there weren't.

14        Q.   So can you describe, to the extent that you know, from about the

15     middle of 1993, what the relationship was like between the HVO and the

16     ABiH in Herceg-Bosna?

17        A.   I certainly can't explain those relations.  At the time that I

18     was there, there were talks that didn't last very long, and I didn't even

19     go outside Mostar, beyond Mostar; so I wasn't able to size up the

20     situation for me to make an evaluation about the relations between the

21     HVO and the BH Army in Herceg-Bosna.  It's a vast territory.  I couldn't

22     view it all.

23        Q.   Mr. Makar, were you aware that in the middle of January, ABiH

24     troops in Herceg-Bosna were ordered subordinated to the HVO Command?

25        A.   Your Honours, I did know something similar, but I wouldn't say

Page 38543

 1     that it was in the way this question was formulated.  I think it was a

 2     political decision rather than a military one, whereas it was formulated

 3     as a military one here.

 4        Q.   Okay.  So you just said that you did -- you did know something

 5     similar.  Tell us what you knew.

 6        A.   I'll try and give a free interpretation of that.  There was a

 7     political agreement, I can't tell you exactly what because it wasn't the

 8     subject of my research, whereby in parts -- in the parts where -- perhaps

 9     I'm not going to be too precise.  Well, I wouldn't like to speculate, to

10     be honest, but I think it was a political decision, not a military

11     decision.

12        Q.   Okay.  It was nonetheless a political decision that affected the

13     military, though; correct?

14        A.   Every political decision in the 2nd Corps area and the Tuzla area

15     had an affect on the 2nd Corps activities.  I can't speak about the other

16     territories because I can't be certain.

17        Q.   Were you aware -- you were again in Herceg-Bosna end of March and

18     beginning of May.  Were you aware that in April another similar ultimatum

19     was issued for the subordination of the ABiH to the HVO by April 15th?

20     Were you aware of that?

21        A.   No, I didn't know that there was any ultimatum, but the situation

22     was tense, that's true.

23        Q.   When you say the situation was tense, what do you mean by that?

24     How do you know the situation was tense?

25        A.   Well, in talking to the Main Staff of the Croatian Army, I saw

Page 38544

 1     that there were problems in relations with the 4th Corps at a local

 2     level.

 3        Q.   Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that there were periods of

 4     time in Bosnia-Herzegovina when Muslims and Croats cooperated together

 5     and fought against a common enemy?  In this case, it would be the Serbs.

 6        A.   I would agree only with your assessment or with the assessment

 7     that that happened throughout the war.

 8        Q.   And it's fair to say that in the Posavina, the Croats and Muslims

 9     together had a common enemy, and that was the Serbs; right?

10        A.   No, that's not right.  There were other areas of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Well, in the majority of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

12     there weren't conflicts.  It was just in the smaller parts.

13        Q.   So my question was:  In Posavina, they cooperated together;

14     correct?

15        A.   Who, who cooperated?  I apologise.  What do you mean "they

16     cooperated together"?  Who, who is "they"?

17        Q.   We're speaking about the Croats and the Muslims, or we can even

18     say the HVO and the ABiH cooperated together in the Posavina.  Would you

19     agree with me ?

20        A.   Well, I answered that a moment ago; not only in Posavina, but it

21     was in Bihac, Sarajevo, and other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And in

22     Posavina, certainly I agree.  I have nothing against that.

23        Q.   All right.  But you also said that there were areas where they

24     did not cooperate; right?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 38545

 1        Q.   All right.  Let's talk about one of those areas.

 2             Now, you mentioned -- yesterday, you mentioned that Zepce was

 3     part of the 2nd Corps, and today, when you looked at the map, you also

 4     put an X over three areas, one of them being Zepce.  Is it your testimony

 5     that Zepce was part of the -- was part of the 2nd Corps?

 6        A.   Only a small part of the territory of Zepce municipality was.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at P02805.  That's P02805.

 8        A.   [In English] Excuse me, on desk or this?

 9        Q.   Both, but if you can find it.  2805.  And now you have it on the

10     screen, sir.

11        A.   M'mm-hmm.

12        Q.   Okay.  So this is a document dated June 16th, 1993, and it's to

13     Bruno Stojic and General Petkovic and Commander Blaskic, and it's signed

14     by Ivo Lozancic.  I just want to talk to you a little about this, and I

15     want to go to the very beginning.  And it says:

16             "There have been some changes in the areas of the 110th and the

17     111th Zepce."

18             I'll ask you a question here.  The 110th was the

19     110th HVO Brigade that was under the 2nd Corps; correct?

20        A.   [Interpretation] No, that's not correct.

21        Q.   Okay.  So what was the HVO brigade that was under the

22     ABiH Command in that area?

23        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, it's a question of wording.  We

24     can't say that the brigade was under the ABiH.  I said quite clearly the

25     110th HVO Brigade was part of Operative Group 7.  Operative Group 7 was

Page 38546

 1     physically cut off from the 2nd Corps all the time.  We had

 2     communications, we received reports from them, but we had no physical

 3     connections.  I wish it to be clarified.  What does it mean when it said

 4     that it was under the control of?

 5        Q.   Let me ask you another question.  Operative Group 7 --

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, your question

 7     [as interpreted] is not satisfactory, from a military point of view.  You

 8     say that the 110th Brigade was part of Operative Group number 7 and that

 9     this operative group was physically cut off, but you said that "we had

10     communications," and you deduct that there is no control.  In military

11     terms, this is impossible.  How do you explain that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Antonetti, I can

13     explain it.

14             In military subordination, there are certain rules that are

15     always applied.  Operative Group 7 or the command of that group, which

16     was later a division, is a level at which the 2nd corps command had

17     control.  That was our level of communication.  A lower level of

18     communication was between Operative Group 7 and its brigades.  In terms

19     of operations and combat, that included the 110th HVO Brigade.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  But in the chain of

21     command, the commander of the 2nd Corps had control over all the units

22     that were under Group number 7; yes or no?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's correct as

24     regards to the situation that existed at the time and as far as this was

25     possible.

Page 38547

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please proceed.

 2             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   So let me just read part -- excuse me.  I'll just read part of

 4     this, and then we can talk about it.  The beginning says:

 5             "There have been some changes in the areas of the 110th and 111th

 6     Zepce brigades since the last report, although there have been no active

 7     combat operations.  Relations with the Muslims, however, are becoming

 8     more complex.  The pressure is growing for them to open hostilities in

 9     these parts.  They even received an order to remove civilians out of

10     Zepce towards Zenica.  Croatian citizens in Maglaj and Zavidovici are

11     constantly being provoked.  In Usura, Croats are under pressure to

12     recognise Muslim authorities and command.  The Serbs are fully observing

13     the cease-fire on all lines towards us.  They are continuously fighting

14     in parts where the Muslims are.  Yesterday, they conducted an operation

15     on the line towards Zavidovici.  On 14 June 1993 towards Tesanj, Muslims

16     suffered great losses, but the lines remained unchanged.

17             "Serbs, headed by Colonel Arsic, commander of the Operative

18     Group, Doboj, are offering full cooperation and a joint front against

19     civilians in these parts and they want a quick answer, yes or no."

20             I'm not going to read the next page of this, and you can go over

21     this in redirect, if you like.  But you would agree with me that in

22     Zepce, which part of it was within the 2nd Corps, in Zepce the Serbs and

23     the Croats, in fact, cooperated against the Muslims; is that right?

24        A.   Your Honour, Your Honours, I wish to clarify a misunderstanding

25     which has evidently arisen here.  This document, in its heading, says

Page 38548

 1     "111th XP Brigade."  This was never part of the 2nd Corps.  This is their

 2     report.  Look to the right.  To whom was this report addressed?

 3     Operative Zone Vitez to Tomo Blaskic.  So this brigade was not part of

 4     the 2nd Corps.  It was under the command of Tomo Blaskic, so I cannot

 5     comment on it.

 6        Q.   I will accept that, but do you stand by the fact that the

 7     2nd Corps had some authority over Zepce or parts of Zepce were under the

 8     2nd Corps?

 9        A.   That was such a small area.  The 111th Brigade was in Zepce, and

10     the other one was completely elsewhere.  They had no physical links.

11        Q.   Okay.  You didn't answer my question, but let me ask another one.

12     Do you remember --

13        A.   I've answered it very precisely, very precisely.  I have to

14     correct you.  We had control over 110th Brigade through Operative Zone 7.

15     The 110th Brigade was completely to the north.  The 111th from Zepce was

16     to the south.  They had no physical contacts, or they had no command

17     contacts.  On the territory of Zepce, it was the 111th XP Brigade and

18     Commander Blaskic who had control.

19        Q.   Okay.  Can we go to P10884.  P10884.  This is another document,

20     and it's to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Supreme

21     Command Staff, and this regards Zepce as well.  And I see that you have

22     the B/C/S.  If we can go to number 2, and it says:

23             "Around 1300 hours yesterday," and this was dated July 1, 1993,

24     "the town of Zepce fell into the hands of the Ustashas and Chetniks."

25             So my question to you, Mr. Makar:  Is this consistent with your

Page 38549

 1     memory as well, that Zepce fell to the hands of both HVO and Serbian

 2     forces?

 3        A.   Your Honours, if we are going to continue in this vein, I beg

 4     that we get the proper map for me to show you things.  And the main part

 5     of the Zepce area was not under our control at all.  And, secondly, this

 6     report has nothing to do with the 2nd Corps, so I don't see why I'm being

 7     asked about it.

 8        Q.   I'll accept, for the --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we all agree the

10     2nd Corps is not involved here.  However, there is a document, and I'm

11     being very cautious here, there is a document that could establish the

12     fact that the Croats and the Serbs jointly fought and won the city of --

13     the town of Zepce.  So we could deduce that there was a collaboration

14     between the Croats and the Serbs.  This is what Ms. West is trying to

15     bring to light through her questions.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question is clear

17     to me, but I cannot answer a question about something I have no knowledge

18     of.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20             Please proceed.

21             MS. WEST:

22        Q.   So just to be clear, sir, is it your testimony that you have no

23     knowledge of the fact that Zepce fell to the HVO and the Serbs?  You have

24     no memory of that, no understanding of that?

25        A.   Well, that's right.  You say it fell into the hands of the Serbs

Page 38550

 1     and the HVO.  No, I don't know about that.

 2        Q.   All right.  Let's look at one more document, P03272.  It's 3272.

 3     This is another -- this is a document to Bruno Stojic.  It's signed by

 4     Lozancic, and it says we have -- and it talks about this same area, and

 5     it says:

 6             "We have been at war with the Muslims for 17 days.  On the third

 7     day of the war, we had to abandon our positions favouring the Serbs.

 8             "The Serbs from our zone are attacking the town of Zavidovici.

 9     Our battalion is also involved, and we expect to make an advance today.

10     Maglaj is completely encircled, as is Tesanj.  Our forces are acting

11     together.  The battalion has been engaged in operations on Maglaj.  The

12     Serbs have brought in three brigades to the region and have deployed them

13     in the Novi Seher area.

14             "We are holding the town of Zepce."

15             Sir, this is July 7th.  The first town that I mentioned,

16     Zavidovici - I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly - is that an area that

17     is within of the auspices of the 2nd Corps?

18        A.   I don't think Zavidovici was, no.

19        Q.   Okay.  How about Maglaj?  That was a town you mentioned earlier.

20        A.   Excuse me.  Zavidovici, I think, was under the 3rd Corps.  If I

21     had a map, it would be easier for me to explain it.  But what was your

22     other question, sorry?

23        Q.   Maglaj, that was a town you mentioned?

24        A.   Maglaj?  Your Honours, Maglaj, yes, we had two brigades of the

25     BH Army in Maglaj.  That was Operative Group 7.

Page 38551

 1        Q.   And Tesanj?

 2        A.   Tesanj, it's hard to say.  You're probably referring to the

 3     broader area of Tesanj.  We held a part of Tesanj municipality, and a

 4     part was held by the Chetniks, so that the wording that Maglaj was fully

 5     encircled and Tesanj, well, yes, that's how it was throughout the war,

 6     that's correct.  And those forces there fought while in encirclement all

 7     the time throughout the war.  These were the forces of Operative Group 7.

 8        Q.   And, sir, were you aware that in the beginning of July, the

 9     Serbian forces that were attacking these towns, including Maglaj and

10     Tesanj, were acting in concert with the HVO?

11        A.   I knew that the Serb forces were attacking Maglaj and Tesanj,

12     those two towns, and that's quite clear.  I did not know that they were

13     acting in concert with the HVO.  This is the first I've heard of it, but

14     I fear you're just speculating about that.

15        Q.   Sir, how do you reconcile the fact that in the area where you

16     worked and fought, you were cooperating with the HVO and they were

17     helping you, you were helping them; but in other areas of the BiH, the

18     same HVO with whom you were working was actually fighting against you?

19     How do you reconcile those two notions?

20        A.   You must be precise.  When you say that the HVO fought against

21     "you," against us, the HVO never fought against me and the 2nd Corps.

22        Q.   That's not my question.  I will agree with you that the HVO --

23        A.   Excuse me.  Yes, forgive me.  The first part of your question, I

24     cannot say why something happened in some other area, because I would

25     then be speculating.

Page 38552

 1        Q.   So is it your testimony that you have -- sorry.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please be very precise

 3     in your answers, because this question is very important and it was asked

 4     to other witnesses.

 5             You know, we've been dealing with this trial for several years,

 6     and the trial is far from being finished; but we have a huge heap of

 7     documents, and in those documents, including the one that we have before

 8     us, it is very clear.  It is a document from the 111th XP Brigade, dated

 9     7th of July, 1993, to Mate Boban and also to Mr. Stojic, who is minister

10     of defence, and this document states that there is, between the HVO and

11     the Serbs, a common action against the Muslims.  This is what the

12     document says.

13             On the other hand, and you said it to us, the 2nd Corps of the

14     ABiH, with units of the HVO, were fighting against the Serbs.  So from an

15     external point of view, like us at the Bench, we are asking ourselves,

16     What does this mean?  And you are an important witness, and you could

17     shed some light on what was happening, and you could say, Yes, because

18     the situation, you know, is very complex.  And the more documents we

19     peruse and the more we realise that it is very complex, and Ms. West is

20     asking you a question that makes perfect sense.  Perhaps you have no

21     idea, perhaps it was the first time that you hear of this.  Please tell

22     us so.  If you were aware of this, please tell us how you interpret those

23     events.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours,

25     Madam Prosecutor, at the beginning of today's session I attempted to

Page 38553

 1     explain what my opinion is and why this came about, as far as I know.

 2     You have had occasion to hear other witnesses, and I can tell you who

 3     spoke about this to you.  My standpoint, in general, is the following:

 4     There was no conflict between the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO

 5     on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I'm being very precise.  So

 6     if we are talking about a conflict on the territory of

 7     Bosnia and Herzegovina, this would cover the entire territory and all or

 8     most of the population on each side.  It would have had to be going on

 9     throughout the war or for most of the war.  This, however, was not the

10     case.  We can enumerate specific places and locations where conflicts

11     took place.

12             I think that in the course of this trial, which has been going on

13     for a really long time, this has all been said, it has all been put

14     forward.

15             One of the witnesses, Mr. Majic, because out of professional

16     curiosity I have been following this trial, is a man who works in a

17     warehouse.  I do not want to disparage him, but he said there were some

18     forces of something like KOS.  My opinion, let me say, is that one must

19     study the project of Greater Serbia, the writings of Garasanin entitled

20     "Nacertanije," and there are other documents, in order to understand all

21     this.

22             You are all lawyers, I am not a lawyer.  But quite logically to

23     establish why a crime was committed and who the perpetrator is, you have

24     to find a motive.  Who had a motive for causing a conflict between the

25     BH Army and the HVO, if they did not manage to cause a conflict in

Page 38554

 1     certain areas?  All this would be clear if you knew about the project of

 2     Greater Serbia.

 3             I think that the esteemed Prosecutor's office should not

 4     underestimate the intelligence capabilities of the Yugoslav Army.  I

 5     cannot know for certain whether the HVO and the Serb side acted in

 6     concert somewhere or not, but if this did happen, a motive should be

 7     established.

 8             As I'm here as a fact witness in a specific area of knowledge,

 9     I'm not here as an expert, I don't want to go into this any further,

10     because I have not prepared myself to testify about it.  If you need me

11     to elaborate on this, I have to prepare for that.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please proceed.

13             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Mr. Makar, you were asked --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MS. WEST:  Excuse me.

17        Q.   You were asked yesterday by counsel what would have happened had

18     the HVO not facilitated MTS to the 2nd Corps, what would have happened to

19     the 2nd Corps; and I think your answer was, quite simply, that the

20     2nd Corps would have been destroyed.  Do you remember that testimony?

21        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

22        Q.   I have a similar question for you:  What would have happened to

23     the Croats in the Posavina corridor if the ABiH had teamed up with the

24     Serbs?

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  Objection.  Calls for speculation.

Page 38555

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, that's a hypothetical

 2     question.  I can't answer that.  I don't think there's any point in that.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Nevertheless, Mr. Karnavas, I think Ms. West has

 4     rightly quoted a question of exactly the same character that was posed by

 5     the Defence, to which the witness has answered, so I think it's a bit

 6     tu quoque, but in a relatively innocent arms type of way.

 7             Ms. Nozica, yes.

 8             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I do apologise, but

 9     you misunderstood my question completely.  I asked the witness what

10     had -- what would have happened if the 2nd Corps, in which he was, had

11     not received those weapons.  The objection of Mr. Karnavas is in that he

12     is being asked about a territory where he was not present, and that's why

13     it would be speculation for him to say what would have happened there,

14     because he wasn't there.  So that would amount to speculation.  I asked

15     him about an area where he was present in the Command of the 2nd Corps.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Praljak.

17             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't wish

18     to testify.  The general is here, and he knows that in the autumn of

19     1992, except for a small area, what we call the Posavina, fell into Serb

20     hands.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Praljak, you are telling us a story, and

22     you're not supposed to do that, so please sit down.

23             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'm not telling you a

24     story.  For three years, after dozens of documents, the fact is still not

25     known that in October, Bosanski Brod fell and the Serbs reached the Sava.

Page 38556

 1     Excuse me.  After three years, that the Serbs reached the Sava on the

 2     10th -- in October and there was no more HVO on the Posavina.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Praljak, I can understand that you get

 4     aggravated, but you are, in fact, telling us what the Serb did, this and

 5     that, and that is telling us facts.  You may be right, you may be wrong,

 6     but it is not your task to do this.  It is simply not your role.  These

 7     are criminal proceedings, and they follow rules, and you also have to

 8     follow them.  I am sorry.

 9             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

10     Judge Trechsel, I want to obey the Rules fully, but, please, the basic

11     fact that the Bosnian Posavina ceased to exist --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, you are

13     telling us things that we're discovering now, but what you should have

14     done in order to avoid this type of problem, is write down on a piece of

15     paper and you send it to your lawyer and say, Here is the problem.  And

16     your counsel looks at this and he hands it to Ms. Nozica, who can, you

17     know, ask additional questions in redirect.  Now, you -- first, she

18     doesn't answer questions.  You will have a chance to come back on this

19     when you testify.  I know you're writing notes.  I'm sure you will

20     remember, or when one of your witnesses comes up, you can bring up the

21     question again.

22             So we are in proceedings where the accused should not testify.

23     You are entitled to remain silent.  If you testify, there is another

24     procedure that comes into play.  In your country and in my country,

25     probably the proceedings might be different.  We may win some time, but

Page 38557

 1     the Judges all adopted this procedure, so we're all -- we're all bound by

 2     these Rules.

 3             So, Ms. West, you have -- well, actually, have you no time left

 4     because it's 7.00 now.  So we will continue tomorrow.  You will have

 5     another hour and 22 minutes, and I hope that there will be no objections

 6     which will lead to multiplying this time by four.

 7             So, Mr. Witness, please do come back tomorrow.  We expect you

 8     here at 2.00, a quarter past 2.00, a quarter past 2.00, not half past

 9     2.00, because we're going to resume at 2.15 tomorrow.

10             So I wish you all a very pleasant evening.

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of

13                           March, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.