1 Wednesday, 25 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Prlic and Coric not present]
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call
8 the case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
10 everyone in and around the courtroom.
11 This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic
12 et al.
13 Thank you, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
15 Today is Wednesday. I would like to greet the accused who are
16 present, Defence counsel, Ms. West, Mr. Scott, and all their associates,
17 the associates of the OTP. I would also like to welcome all the people
18 assisting us in the courtroom.
19 I shall first of all give the floor to the Registrar, who has a
20 number of IC numbers to give us.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 2D has submitted his response to Prosecution's objections to his
23 documents tendered through Witness Bandic, Ivan. This list shall be
24 given Exhibit IC966. And 4D has submitted his response to 2D's
25 objections to his documents tendered through witness Bandic, Ivan. This
1 list shall be given Exhibit number IC967.
2 Thank you, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
4 I haven't forgotten, or course, to greet the witness. That goes
5 without staying.
6 I shall first of all read out an oral decision, which is somewhat
7 lengthy. I shall do this right now.
8 Oral decision concerning a request filed by the Stojic Defence
9 and relating to the testimony of Momcilo Mandic through video conference.
10 I would like to move into private session, please.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 38560-38561 redacted.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
12 WITNESS: ANDJELKO MAKAR [Resumed]
13 [The witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I've been told you
15 have a recording device on you. What kind of a recording device is that?
16 Is that a telephone? What is it, exactly? What kind of a device do you
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean here in the courtroom?
19 Yes, I have a Dictaphone.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're not using it, are you?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If it's not allowed, I will not use
22 it. I have not used it up to now.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the courtroom, it's
24 prohibited from recording anything whatsoever, so don't use it, please.
25 But since you've told us that you haven't used it, I trust you haven't.
1 Mr. Karnavas, I believe you would like to say something. Is this
2 something you would like to say in the presence of the witness or not?
3 If it is not in the presence of the witness, perhaps you could take the
4 floor after the break. It's whichever way you like.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: I have nothing to say. I mean, I think I passed
6 on -- I passed on a message to the Bench, which was a private message. I
7 don't know whether the -- whether that was conveyed. I was going to
8 suggest, with respect to your last comment to the witness, that he can be
9 informed that if he wishes to have a copy of the transcript or even the
10 video, or a CD of his testimony, that could be provided to him, so
11 there's no need for the gentleman to -- that was all I wanted to say,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.
14 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. Each of Your Honours,
15 Counsel, good afternoon.
16 Your Honour, just briefly on the last matter, and I will not
17 mention any names so I do not think it's necessary to go into private
18 session again, in reference to the previous matter that was addressed in
19 closed session, I take it that the parties and the Chamber can then, for
20 the moment, go forward on the basis that that witness is not presently
21 scheduled. If we can just confirm that. That witness is not presently
22 on the court calendar, then, if I understand correctly. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the time being, the witness
24 in question is still scheduled for the 8th of April to come and testify.
25 He hasn't been stricken off.
1 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. That's exactly why I asked,
2 just to be absolutely clear what the implications of that might be. So
3 the schedule is fine. Thank you.
4 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours, I wish to
5 respond to my learned friend. I thought that as soon as I had informed
6 the Chamber, the witness would be taken off the list for the 8th of
7 April, and by the 10th we will inform both the Trial Chamber and my
8 learned friend when the witness will be able to come and testify and in
9 what way. So we can say for now that he has been taken off the list, and
10 we will inform both the Chamber and the OTP in writing of this.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott, for
12 having raised this issue. Thank you, also, Ms. Nozica, for being very
13 clear about this.
14 Ms. West, I shall like to greet you once again, and I shall give
15 you the floor so that you can finish your cross-examination.
16 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, and good
17 afternoon to everyone in the courtroom. Good afternoon, Mr. Makar.
18 Cross-examination by Ms. West: [Continued]
19 Q. Sir, yesterday, on page 89 of the transcript, you indicated that
20 you had had the occasion -- or you knew the Court had the occasion to
21 hear other witnesses who spoke about the same subject matter that you
22 were speaking about, and you said one of the witnesses, Mr. Majic,
23 "because of professional curiosity, I had been following this trial."
24 Mr. Makar, how long had you been following this trial?
25 A. For about six months, Your Honours.
1 Q. And in the course of those six months, how often do you listen in
2 or do you watch?
3 A. Not often, because it's not always possible. I read what "SENSE"
4 publishes on the internet, although it's not always correct. So
5 occasionally when I have time, I read those reports.
6 Q. And have you read from "SENSE" or followed any of the other cases
7 at the ICTY?
8 A. No, Your Honours, I didn't follow any other cases. I followed
9 this one because I thought I might be called as a witness.
10 Q. Mr. Makar, on Monday, page 58 of the transcript, you were asked
11 by counsel:
12 "What would have happened to the Tuzla region, which we have seen
13 is a very large area, had you not procured weapons in the way in which
14 you have described to us now during your testimony? Would the area have
15 been defended from the Yugoslav Army and Serb paramilitaries? Would it
16 have been successful in defending itself?"
17 Do you remember that question on Monday?
18 A. Your Honours, I do, but now it's been formulated slightly
19 differently. Would this region have defended itself had we not supplied
20 those weapons? Supplied to whom? We received weapons. We did not
21 supply them to anyone.
22 Q. All right, Mr. Makar. Are you suggesting that the question I
23 read out to you is not, in your memory, the question that was asked of
24 you on Monday?
25 A. I was quite clear. You just said - I may have misunderstood
1 you - whether this area would have defended itself had we not delivered
2 those weapons. To deliver means that we gave weapons to somebody else.
3 I assume you wanted to ask whether the region would have defended itself
4 if we had not received those weapons. Was that your question? That's
5 what you said. You may have changed your question now. I don't know.
6 Q. Mr. Makar, I think maybe it was just a translation mistake. I've
7 read from the transcript, but we're going to move on. I'm going to ask
8 you another question that is quite similar, and that question is: What
9 would have happened to --
10 A. I can answer your question. It's not a problem for me to answer.
11 If you are asking about the weapons supplied to us, if we had not
12 received those weapons, certainly the region would not have been able to
13 defend itself. That's quite clear.
14 Q. Exactly, and that's what you answered on Monday. But my question
15 is: What would have happened to the Tuzla region had the ABiH teamed up
16 with the Serbs and not the HVO?
17 A. That's a hypothetical question, in my view, and in my view this
18 was not possible, it couldn't have happened.
19 Q. Okay. So you're right, that is a hypothetical question, and it
20 may be that it could not have happened. However, if it did, I'd like to
21 hear what your answer is.
22 A. Madam Prosecutor, Your Honours, as a soldier and as a human
23 being, I don't like speculating. I could speculate now, but I don't see
24 why I should. It's not a fact I'm being asked about. I can only
25 speculate about this. I can't tell you what I know about it. I don't
2 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that had that happened, had
3 the Croats -- had the ABiH and the Serbs teamed up against the Croats,
4 the Croats would have been completely destroyed?
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object at this point.
6 This is not a historical seminar. I mean, what if Nazi Germany and
8 What if, what if, what if? We're not here on some seminar. I mean,
9 academically I find it rather interesting that we can have this
10 discourse, but this is not the purpose of a trial, and I think we need to
11 move on of the.
12 MR. KOVACIC: If I may, Your Honour, just a small thing I would
13 like to add to my dear friend. The question is asked and answered, in
14 addition to what my colleague said.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, first of all, the
16 answer hasn't been provided; at least the Bench does not see it as such.
17 Your question is of a technical and military nature. This is a question
18 which you are putting to a military man, and it is a question of a
19 military nature. This is how we should understand your question, isn't
21 MS. WEST: Correct.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So put your question again, and
23 the witness will answer and provide an answer of a military nature.
24 MS. WEST:
25 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that had the ABiH and the
1 Serbs teamed up against the Croats, the Croats would have been completely
3 A. Your Honours, the question is imprecise.
4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, please do not
6 manifest. When you say something, "yes," "no," or something else, you
7 are provoking the answer of the witness, and that is not appropriate.
8 This is not allowed, Mr. Praljak. So let the witness answer freely on a
9 question that is of a military nature. You don't have to add anything to
10 this. When you will be in the seat of the witness, which I hope you will
11 be very soon, then we can clear up a lot of topics. Then you will be
12 able to address this topic again.
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour,
14 Judge Antonetti.
15 I will, of course, be testifying very long. I hope I will be fit
16 to do so, but my reaction is very simple. I expected, and still expect,
17 with all due respect for the Trial Chamber and this Court, that we should
18 not engage in speculation, in idle speculation. Had America intervened,
19 in compliance with the international laws banning aggression, we would
20 not be sitting here. There would have been no war. We can discuss here
21 what would have happened had Cicero
22 developed his theory, and so on and so forth, but what are we talking
23 about, Judge Antonetti? What would have happened, what would have
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, please sit down,
1 please sit down.
2 I don't agree with what you have said at all, because Ms. West's
3 question is of a military nature. She would like to know whether, if the
4 forces had teamed up against the third force, the third force in question
5 would have been destroyed. That is a question which anyone can
6 understand, and the witness may have an answer to give us. He may say
7 that this is pure speculation, but in light of the forces involved, he
8 may say something else.
9 So please answer the question of Ms. West, irrespective of
10 Mr. Praljak's comments.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was ready to reply
12 when Mr. Praljak interrupted me, but I would like Madam Prosecutor to ask
13 whether she's asking about the territory of the 2nd Corps, could she be
14 precise, or about a wider territory?
15 MS. WEST:
16 Q. Mr. Makar, in this courtroom I'm asking you questions, and I made
17 it quite clear when I indicated the question I asked you on Monday, which
18 is in the Tuzla
19 Serbs had teamed up, what would have happened to the HVO --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What would have happened to the HVO?
22 A. Madam Prosecutor, evidently you haven't followed what I said so
23 far, because if you had, the answer would be clear to you.
24 In the area of the 2nd Corps, it wasn't Croats, Serbs, and
25 Muslims who were fighting, but human beings against inhuman beings.
1 There were Croats on the Serb side, and Muslims as well. I know that for
2 certain. So it was not an ethnic clash in that area. Both Croats and
3 Muslims, who were born on the territory covered by the 2nd Corps, whose
4 families were buried there, who had their family houses and their
5 families there, were fighting. So if anybody had joined up with anyone,
6 those people would have continued fighting in the same way they had been
7 fighting up to that point, and that's my answer.
8 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree that --
9 MS. TOMANOVIC: Sorry, sorry.
10 [Interpretation] I do apologise to my learned friend, but the
11 interpretation did not reflect what the witness said.
12 The witness, on page 12, lines 24 to 25, said, in fact, that on
13 the other side, there were both Croats and Serbs and Muslims.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, it isn't stated here.
15 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, now it's all right in the
16 transcript. If you want to confirm, please go ahead.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's all right.
18 MS. WEST: Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree that the HVO's cooperation with the
20 ABiH in the Tuzla
21 A. I don't understand your question. What do you mean, for the
22 benefit of someone?
23 Q. Would you agree that the HVO's cooperation with the ABiH in the
25 in their own benefit?
1 A. No, I would not agree with that at all. I think it's not
3 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Makar --
4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours. I
5 didn't want to intervene before the witness replied, but this question
6 clearly contains a presumption which was in no way confirmed either by
7 the testimony of this witness or by any other piece of evidence brought
8 before this Court. The first part is a presumption, followed by a
9 question. Let the presumption be confirmed first, and then the question
10 can be put. This is a textbook example of something that should not be
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please proceed.
13 MS. WEST:
14 Q. Mr. Makar, yesterday we spoke --
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're wasting more time.
16 MS. WEST:
17 Q. We spoke about the corridor where you fought, and you indicated
18 it was the end of 1992, early 1993. And after much questioning, you
19 finally agreed that sometimes military units were able to get through,
20 although you did not know for certain whether the military units carried
21 supplies. Do you remember those questions from yesterday?
22 A. Your Honours and Madam Prosecutor, Kimberley, last night I
23 thought about your question, and I wish to give you my reply now.
24 I didn't say what you are saying now. You did not have a precise
25 map on which I could explain precisely what this was all about.
1 Secondly, the OTP didn't even know what the term "Posavina"
2 implies. And, thirdly, you kept mentioning the Posavina corridor, and I
3 kept telling you I didn't know about any such corridor.
4 This is a trial where people's fate hangs in the balance, and
5 every question is important. Put your question correctly, and I will
6 respond to it.
7 Q. Mr. Makar, you did not respond to my question --
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you are not
9 accountable for what's going to happen to the accused. You are a witness
10 that has been called upon to testify upon the request of the Stojic
11 Defence team and to answer questions regarding MTS and so on. But we are
12 talking about MTS, because the Prosecutor is dealing with other topics,
13 of course. But we are all aware that there are -- that the lives of the
14 accused is at stake here.
15 Ms. West, please proceed.
16 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that stopping the Serbs
18 from --
19 A. Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I would nonetheless like to respond,
20 because you --
21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Witness. You do not have a right to
22 respond here. You are here under the duty to answer, clearly and
23 precisely, the questions that are put to you by the Prosecutor, the
24 Judge, the Defence. You are not to comment. It is unfortunate, perhaps,
25 and I regret to say this, because you do not have the freedom of speech
1 in here. You have it outside, but here you are an assistant to the
2 proceedings, and your duty is just to answer the question, not to
3 criticise them, but to answer them and, where possible, with "yes" or
4 "no." Do you understand this?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Stephan Trechsel, my
6 responsibility is clear here, and I abide by it, to tell the truth and
7 only the truth about the facts and to answer questions that are clear to
8 me. As for questions that are not clear to me, I cannot answer them with
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam West, please proceed.
11 MS. WEST: Thank you.
12 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that stopping the Serbs from
13 going through the corridor was of significance to the Republic of
15 Serbs in the Republic of the Serbian Krajina would also be cut off?
16 A. Probably that would be the case, but I can't say for sure. I
17 don't know.
18 Q. So let's look at P10899, which is an interview you gave in
19 February 1995 in which answered the same question. P10899, 10899.
20 A. 01?
21 Q. 10899.
22 A. Yes, I see it.
23 Q. This is a February 6, 1995
25 "If the political will exists in Bosnia and Croatia
1 against the Bosnian Serbs could be won. If the Serbian corridor in the
2 North-Eastern Bosnia is cut, the Bosnian Serbs --"
3 A. Just a moment, please. I haven't found that passage, and
4 therefore I'm unable to follow. So just give me a moment to follow,
6 Q. The very beginning. You can also look on the screen. Do you see
8 A. I can't find that. Just a moment, please.
9 Q. Look on the screen.
10 A. Yes, I see it now.
11 Q. So the very beginning, first paragraph:
12 "If the political will exists in Bosnia and Croatia
13 against the Bosnian Serbs could be won. If the Serbian corridor in the
14 north eastern Bosnia
15 of their territory. The Serbs in Croatia would also be cut off.
16 "So said Colonel Makar to Svenska Dageldet. He is the deputy
17 commander of the Bosnian Army 2nd Corps in the Tuzla region."
18 Sir, do you remember giving this interview?
19 A. I don't remember, but most probably I did. And I'm not
20 challenging that statement of mine at all.
21 Q. All right. So you would agree that if the corridor continued, if
22 the Serbs were allowed to continue on the corridor, they would be
23 funneling their supplies to the Serbs in western Bosnia-Herzegovina and
24 the Serbs in the Republic of Serbian
25 A. Probably, yes.
1 Q. And, Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that part of the reason
2 that the Republic of Croatia
3 providing MTS, was to ensure that the 2nd Corps was successful in
4 stopping the Serbs?
5 A. I do not agree. The prime objective, Your Honours -- well, there
6 was enough weapons to defend the territory, and I said yesterday that
7 from the beginning of the war, we were in a strategic defensive
8 exclusively. We didn't have the strength to cut anybody off, and the
9 weapons were used just to defend ourselves. And there was always a
10 shortage of weapons and not a surplus of weapons.
11 Q. Let's go to P10904. It's the map right next to you. I think
12 everyone was given a copy of this before we started, and this was another
13 map regarding the Serbian areas in Croatia. We had one yesterday, but
14 I think this might be a little bit of a better one to follow.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps it could be put on the
16 ELMO, because this map is interesting, and it would be preferable to see
17 it from the ELMO.
18 Registrar, could you perhaps put this map on the ELMO so that
19 everyone can see it. Thank you.
20 Yes, Mr. Khan.
21 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, while that's being done, with your
22 leave, at page 17, line 17, the transcript is not complete. What the
23 witness said, as far as the translation is concerned, is: "Probably I
24 did, but I don't challenge that." The last two words are omitted from
25 the LiveNote transcript.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] While we're on the transcript,
3 Your Honours.
4 At page 18, line 2, the witness said -- in line 2, he said there
5 was never enough weapons to defend the territory. The negative "never"
6 was not recorded, so there was never enough.
7 Thank you.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Everyone can see the map now.
10 Ms. West, please proceed.
11 MS. WEST:
12 Q. Mr. Makar, this is document P10904, and for the purposes of my
13 questions, just assume that the red area that we're looking at is a
14 Serbian-controlled area. Excuse me, let me be more specific about that.
15 The red area within the lines of Bosnia-Herzegovina are municipalities
16 with an absolute Serb majority in 1991, but the red-orange area in
18 So my question to you --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Counsel.
21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, but before we go ahead
22 with the question, so that I don't have to object and react, I think it
23 would be proper to state that this map was compiled at the end of 1992,
24 and that's what it says in the legend at the bottom, because we have
25 three or four different maps, and this is important because the situation
1 was significantly changed by the end of 1992.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 Mr. Praljak.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] This portion -- this is a
6 forgery, falsified.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, you are testifying
8 here. Please wait and see what the witness will have to say, who has the
9 same competences as you have, since he was a high-ranking officer, and he
10 will perhaps say exactly what you have just said. So please let him
12 Ms. West, we are starting from the point of view that this map
13 dates back to the end of 1991 or the beginning of 1992, isn't it?
14 MS. WEST: Yes. For the record, Ms. Nozica said "1992." I think
15 the legend actually says controlled Serb autonomous regions at the end of
16 1991; and then the census -- the colours in the middle are from the 1991
18 Q. Mr. Makar, there was fighting in the region of the corridor in
19 1992 and 1993; correct?
20 A. Yes, during 1992 and 1993.
21 Q. Okay. And at least in the beginning of 1992, for the purposes of
22 this question, would you agree with me that the area -- the Serbian area
23 controlled in Croatia
24 see in front of you? It may not be exact, but at least by the beginning
25 of 1992 does it pretty much correspond?
1 A. Madam Prosecutor, are you referring to the areas within Croatia
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. I can't really say, because this is a very imprecise map.
4 Q. But you would agree with me that on the right-hand side of the
5 map, on the east side of Bosnia-Herzegovina is Serbia; correct?
6 A. Yes, I agree.
7 Q. And you see Brcko on the map; right?
8 A. You can see the name "Brcko," but not Brcko proper.
9 Q. Okay. But you see the municipality of Brcko
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Municipality, that's what I meant.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please answer the questions.
13 Ms. West is asking you whether you can see Brcko on the map. You say,
14 "Yes, I can see it."
15 Please proceed, Ms. West.
16 MS. WEST: Thank you.
17 Q. And, Mr. Witness -- Mr. Makar, in 1992/1993, this area around
18 Brcko was the area of the corridor that we've spoken about; correct?
19 A. No, we did not discuss that corridor.
20 Q. Okay. So then my question is: To go from Serbia, to go west to
21 these red municipalities in Western Bosnia-Herzegovina and to this orange
22 area in Croatia
23 directly from the area that we see as about Bijeljina going direct --
24 directly west, a direct line west; would you agree with me?
25 A. Yes, I agree.
1 MS. WEST: Okay. If we can go to P10902.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this map may be not
3 totally accurate, but it could shed some light on what is at stake here.
4 We can see in yellow the SAO that were controlled by the Serbs in
8 surrounding area of Brcko to try and reach the municipalities -- the
9 Serbian municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It goes without saying,
10 it's kind of obvious, because Croatia
11 see. It's the western SAO. And so the Serbs can only go via Brcko.
12 And, in fact, yesterday, because everything you say is recorded, you
13 actually said yourself yesterday that people from Arkan were in the area
14 of Brcko. You said it yourself. So this corridor that is much talked
15 about cannot allow the Serbs to supply the Serbs of Bosnia only via this
16 area, and this is where the 2nd Corps is operational. So do you confirm
17 or do you disagree with this, based on the map that you can see in front
18 of you?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, that's
20 precisely what I said. I confirm everything you said, and had the
21 Prosecutor explained it that way, I would have confirmed it to her
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Prosecutor is
24 the Prosecutor, and I am myself.
25 But just one point of detail which Ms. West hasn't raised
1 regarding this map. We can see that there is a border of the VRS in July
2 1993. It's the red line that goes through this area, and it's going to
3 go through -- go above Tuzla
4 1993, the VRS was kind of all around your area?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You agree. Very well. Well, I
7 hope that we can see more clearly now.
8 Ms. West, please proceed.
9 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 P10902, if we could have that, P10902. It's a map, another map.
11 And this is a close-up map of the area of Brcko, and on it, it shows
12 confrontation lines.
13 Q. Mr. Makar, do you see the Sava River
15 A. Your Honours, yes, I see the River Sava clearly passing through
16 that area.
17 Q. Okay. And --
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, can you please tell
19 us when this map was drawn?
20 MS. WEST: Your Honour, I believe this map is for the period
21 of -- in 1992. I cannot be more accurate than that.
22 Q. Mr. Makar, you testified yesterday in regard to this river, and
23 you indicated that this was the river you were trying to reach; correct?
24 A. That's right, Your Honours.
25 Q. All right. And --
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Ms. West.
2 I read on the map "Addition April 94." You have said "92."
3 MS. WEST: Your Honour, I can clarify that during the break.
4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
5 MS. WEST: Thank you.
6 Q. You also testified earlier today that the ABiH was in the area
7 south of Brcko. Now, on this map, and if you have it on e-court in front
8 of you, perhaps you can mark -- like you did yesterday, you can mark on
9 the map.
10 A. [In English] Okay.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you just show us, in the period that you were
12 there, which would have been the end of 1992, the beginning of 1993,
13 where the ABiH was located when you indicated they were south of Brcko?
14 A. [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have marked it. It's a little
15 closer to Brcko, at the outskirts.
16 Q. And did that position change through 1993 and into 1994, or was
17 the ABiH still in that general area?
18 A. Your Honours, the BH Army was there in that area throughout.
19 Q. When you say "throughout," give me the time-frame.
20 A. Until the end of the war. Your Honours, our positions were as I
21 have marked them in here, and they remained there until the end of the
23 Q. Okay. Now, the area going north, the area above the other
24 confrontation line, what forces were in that area during the period of
25 time that you were there, end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993?
1 A. In that area north and marked in red in relation to the
2 Sava River
4 Q. And were there any Croatian forces there, forces from the HV?
5 A. Your Honours, I know that there were -- was the 203rd or 4th --
6 or 203rd, 204th, 205th, and 206th Brigades of the HVO from that area.
7 I'm not quite sure of their numbers, the Croatian Defence Council, HVO.
8 Q. Okay, so my --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam West, the question of the
10 date is very important. This document shows two dates. April 1994, it
11 seems that it comes from the General Staff of a British battalion of some
12 sort, and this has been published on the right-hand side, by the Ministry
13 of Defence of the UK
14 the simple conclusion that this map was drawn for what was happening in
16 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President, and I think this witness has
17 confirmed for us that the ABiH presence went throughout the war. So even
18 if it was 1992, he has marked on the map where the ABiH was as well. So
19 I'll ask him that same question in regard to the HV.
20 Q. Mr. Makar, my question had been: Were there any Croatian forces
21 there, forces from the HV? And your answer had to do with the HVO, so
22 let me ask you again. Were there any Croatian forces, or from the
23 Republic of Croatia
24 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I said that it was the HVO
25 forces. As to the HV forces, I don't know about them.
1 MS. WEST: May we have an IC number for this map.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, an IC number for
3 this map, please.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 The marked portion of P10902 shall be given Exhibit IC967. Thank
6 you, Your Honours.
7 MS. WEST:
8 Q. Mr. Makar, you spoke on Monday in regard to the HVO
9 communications with the Main Staff, and on page 32 of the transcript you
10 had said that you had pointed out that, and this is a quote:
11 "HVO brigades were subordinated to the Command of the 2nd Corps
12 in operative and combat activities, but as regards other military issues,
13 such as logistics, appointments, and other similar issues, they were
14 subordinated to the Main Staff, so that the HVO brigades and their
15 commanders, and other commanding officers, regularly communicated with
16 the Main Staff and the Defence Department in Mostar."
17 Mr. Makar, would you agree with me -- my question is that part of
18 the reason that your model in the Tuzla
19 the HVO brigades had the ability to communicate with the Main Staff in
21 A. Just a moment. I'd like to read the question to the end.
22 Well, I don't know why that would be any special reason. They
23 functioned in the way they functioned, just like the brigades of the
24 BH Army, and their links and communication in this part with the
25 Main Staff only contributed to it being more efficient and effective.
1 Q. And so you would agree that they had effective communication?
2 A. Absolutely, yes.
3 Q. Mr. Makar, you had testified on direct about different ways in
4 which the 2nd Corps received MTS, and I just want to cover a couple of
5 those ways.
6 One of the ways -- or one of the places from which the MTS came,
7 you indicated, was directly from Zagreb
8 documents, five 2D documents, on that particular subject matter, and
9 three of them were dated in October 1992, one was in January, one was in
10 February. So the last date of the MTS documents that you showed us
11 coming direct from Zagreb
12 My question, sir, is: Would you agree with me that Croatia
13 vested interest in the area of the 2nd Corps, specifically the corridor
14 where you fought, so it would not be unusual that Croatia was interested
15 in sending MTS to the 2nd Corps?
16 A. Madam Prosecutor, I can't confirm that. All I know is that what
17 was important for me was that the MTS should arrive. Now, whose
18 interest -- in whose interest it was, I really can't say. Anybody who
19 supplied us with MTS, even if it were the devil himself, we would have
20 accepted it. Now, whose interest it served, I don't want to go into
21 that. I don't know.
22 Q. Another group that you spoke about were seven documents, there
23 were seven documents of MTS coming from the HVO Bosanska Posavina, and
24 those documents are four from December 1992, two from January 1992, and
25 there was just one from April of 1993. Do you remember those documents?
1 A. Well, I do apologise, but sometimes I can't even remember what I
2 had for breakfast. Yes, I do recall those documents, but not which
3 specific ones. If you were to show me, I could be able to say for sure,
4 but, yes, I can confirm that.
5 Q. Okay, Mr. Makar, my question is quite different. Would you agree
6 with me that the HVO Bosanska Posavina also had a vested interest in
7 helping the ABiH in that particular area from stopping the Serbs going
9 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I really want to speak the truth
10 and address the facts and be of assistance, but the question is
11 imprecise. The HVO of Bosanska Posavina, as far as I'm concerned, means
12 Operative Group 1 of the 2nd Corps. Is that what you had in mind?
13 Q. And so it was the Operative Group 1 of the 2nd Corps that was
14 supplying another operative group of the 2nd Corps; is that right?
15 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, that's precisely it. There were
16 two names for different military formations, to be quite precise, when
17 talking about Bosanska Posavina. We had Operative Group
18 Bosanska Posavina, which was the 107th, the 108th, HVO Brigade, and the
19 21st Brigade of the BH Army under the 2nd Corps, within the composition
20 of the 2nd Corps. But then there was the Operative Zone of
21 Bosanska Posavina and that's what we are speaking about northwards
22 towards the Sava River
23 Q. So I'm talking about the seven documents that began with 2D01075
24 in which it was MTS from the HVO Bosanska Posavina. Those are the
25 documents to which I am referring. Do you have a memory of those
2 A. Your Honours, now it's clear. I do remember. They were
3 documents about the MTS received from the HVO of Bosanska Posavina, that
4 is to say, the upper group, not the group that came under the 2nd Corps.
5 Q. Right. And there were also a set of documents that came from the
6 HVO -- came directly from Grude; correct?
7 A. That's right, yes.
8 Q. And you showed us eight documents, and those were dated February
9 and March 1993. There were none after March 1993. Do you remember
10 looking at those documents?
11 A. Yes, I do, and I confirm that those are indeed the documents and
12 that it came directly from the Logistics Base at Grude.
13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise to my learned colleague,
14 but I would like to say that in the transcript, while it's still on the
15 screens, on page 28, line 13, the witness said "the Operative Zone of
16 Bosanska Posavina." And then -- but then there was -- and there's
17 something missing there, so just for the transcript.
18 MS. WEST:
19 Q. Mr. Makar, I apologise, but if we can just get off this train of
20 thought for a second.
21 Do you have that Posavina corridor map in front of you still?
22 That is 10902. Do you see that on the screen, 10902?
23 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, yes, I have the map here, but
24 could we say the Posavina corridor, not the corridor of Posavina, the
25 Posavinski corridor?
1 Q. Mr. Makar, just bear with me for a moment. Do you remember when
2 you put the front-line -- earlier you drew a little red line showing
3 where the ABiH was. You indicated that was when you were there, and in
4 1992, 1993, and you also confirmed that was into 1994. Could you just
5 redraw it again.
6 A. Your Honours, I will redraw the line. And to avoid wasting time,
7 let me explain. Judge Antonetti asked whether this was -- but this is an
8 UNPROFOR map.
9 Q. I asked you to draw --
10 A. Yes, I have drawn the line. I have drawn it. I haven't wasted
11 any time.
12 MS. WEST: Thank you. May we have an IC number for that?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour --
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. We'll give it an
15 IC number, but I believe the Registrar wanted to give us a change of
17 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour. The previous number
18 given which is IC00967 was actually supposed to be IC00968 which applies
19 to the current portion of the map that has just been marked by the
20 witness. Thank you, Your Honours.
21 MS. WEST: Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Makar, we've now moved on to the set of documents that are
23 coming directly -- there's no translation. Can you hear?
24 A. Now I can hear.
25 Q. All right. We were talking about a set of documents of MTS being
1 set from Grude, from the HVO, and in your testimony regarding this on
2 Monday, you had said:
3 "Pursuant to an agreement with the HVO, all the equipment being
4 sent to the 2nd Corps was being sent in documents by the 107th Brigade of
5 the HVO or the 111th Brigade or the 115th Brigade, and it was the corps
6 that disposed of all the equipment and distributed them where it was
7 needed most."
8 Mr. Makar, is it your testimony that the MTS was sent to the HVO
9 brigades -- well, strike that. Explain to us again why the MTS was sent
10 to the HVO as opposed to the BiH.
11 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, the MTS was not sent to the HVO,
12 and that's not what I said, and that's not what the documents say. The
13 MTS was sent for the 2nd Corps, but in order to facilitate passage
14 through HVO territory the documents were marked that they were going to
15 the 107th HVO. Whoever was transporting this MTS also had documents from
16 the 2nd Corps with the same data, and I explained why this was done.
17 I can give you an example. For example, when I was leading a convoy, I
18 could clarify that by illustrating it with that example.
19 MS. WEST: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm trying to
21 understand, because all of this is very complicated.
22 The documents, which show that the MTS were sent to the 107th
23 Brigade of the HVO, but you are saying that this was mentioned to
24 facilitate the transport of this equipment, but in fact this was to be
25 sent to the 2nd Corps. Is that how we should understand what you've just
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely so, that's
3 what I said. You understood correctly.
4 MS. WEST:
5 Q. And, Mr. Makar, the last document you showed us of that group was
6 March 1993
7 A. I didn't show you any document, I just looked at the documents,
8 but it probably is, yes, the one.
9 Q. And so far the latest MTS that we have seen to the 2nd Corps is
10 the April 8th document. Let's -- let's turn now to your trip so we can
11 talk about more of the MTS.
12 Your first trip to Mostar was in February of -- excuse me. Your
13 first trip that you spoke about in early 1993 was February 1993; right?
14 A. Your Honours, that's correct, in February 1993. Around the 20th,
15 I think I said.
16 Q. You were there on behalf of the 2nd Corps in order to get MTS;
18 A. Yes, that was the main reason. I was always going on behalf of
19 the 2nd Corps then and on other occasions.
20 Q. Were there any strings attached to the HVO's willingness to give
21 you MST?
22 A. Your Honours, no, there were no strings. The only condition was
23 we were fighting the common enemy, and we had satisfied that.
24 Q. Was there a decision to give you MTS based on whether there was a
25 friendly relationship between the 2nd Corps and the HVO in your area?
1 A. No, it was not based on that. It was based on the fact that the
2 HVO units, which were part of the 2nd Corps, were in operative and combat
3 terms subordinated to the 2nd Corps Command. Friendship, that's
4 something else.
5 Q. Please go to 2D01111, 2D01111. This is a document that --
6 A. Yes, I found it.
7 Q. This is a document that you looked at during your direct
8 testimony, and this is the February -- it's dated February 26, and you
9 told us that this was the sort of summary report you wrote about the
11 Now, I'd like to move to the second page of English, but
12 nonetheless it's number 2 in "Logistics." Do you see that part, number 2
13 under "Logistics"?
14 A. I don't understand. Why should I look at it in English?
15 Q. The B/C/S number 2, "Logistics"?
16 A. Yes, I've found it.
17 Q. Okay. And it says:
18 "After familiarising with the situation in 2nd Corps, where all
19 of the ABiH and HVO units are under the joint command and where no
20 conflicts appeared so far, representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosna will
21 enable undisturbed passage of all MTS logistics to the 2nd Corps."
22 Mr. Makar, my question is: Would you agree with me that Stojic,
23 Rajic, Petkovic, Praljak, all the people you met with, their willingness
24 to secure passage was actually linked to the relationship between the BiH
25 and the HVO?
1 A. Your Honours, I agree that it was based on the military
2 relationship we had, where the brigades of the HVO were part -- or,
3 rather, subordinated, in terms of combat and operations, to the 2nd Corps
5 Q. So would you agree with me that what this actually means is so
6 far there's been no conflicts in the area the 2nd Corps covers between
7 the BiH and the HVO, and so as a result Herceg-Bosna will enable
8 undisturbed passage of MTS? Would you agree with me that that's what
9 that means?
10 A. No, Your Honours, I would not agree with that. That was not the
11 main reason. The main reason was that the brigades of the HVO were part
12 of the 2nd Corps; they were subordinated in combat terms; and they were
13 fighting the common enemy. So the reason was military.
14 Q. Okay. So let's go to part B under the same "Logistics," and this
15 is what you continued to write. You wrote:
16 "Undisturbed passage of means is secured provided there are no
17 new conflicts in Central Bosnia and that the means are to be transferred
18 directly to the 2nd Corps, and not to Central Bosnia or Visoko ..."
19 So, sir, would you agree with me that Stojic, Praljak, Petkovic,
20 and Rajic are attaching strings to the MTS that's going to the 2nd Corps;
21 that as long as there are no new conflicts in Central Bosnia, then the
22 MTS will be transferred to the 2nd Corps?
23 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I would not agree, because it's
24 the first word "undisturbed passage" is secured and so on. If there are
25 conflicts, then there will be problems in passage. Passage will be
1 undisturbed if there are no problems.
2 Q. All right. And this goes on to say that the means are to be
3 transferred directly to the 2nd Corps and not to Central Bosnia or
4 Visoko. Doesn't -- Mr. Makar, wasn't -- did you understand that their
5 concern was -- the HVO's concern was that these -- this MTS could perhaps
6 be turned around and used against them?
7 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, as I personally compiled this,
8 I can say that's not correct. That was our condition. We wanted the MTS
9 to be delivered directly to us in the 2nd Corps. And it could only be
10 sent to Central Bosnia or to Visoko, but we insisted it be sent to the
11 2nd Corps, because we were the ones that needed the MTS most.
12 Q. So let's go ahead a few months in April, so this is still a
13 period of time where you're making these trips to Mostar, and look at
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a follow-up question,
16 Witness. Since you are the one who drafted this document, I'm sure
17 you'll be able to shed some light on it.
18 I would like you to look at paragraph F, please, under item 1,
19 where it says that the conflicts in Central Bosnia can be settled
20 peacefully through meetings with the HVO. I would like to know what
21 "SSVK" stands for.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, "SSVK" means the Staff
23 of the Supreme Command, "S" standing for the "sh" with the diacritic.
24 Shall I continue?
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, the Staff of
1 the Supreme Command Staff of the ABiH?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
4 MS. WEST: 2D01149, 2D01149. This is a document dated April
5 16th --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.
7 MS. WEST: -- in Herceg-Bosna. Excuse me, not in Herceg-Bosna.
8 It's dated April 16th.
9 Q. Do you have that in front of you? And this is a letter from
10 Hazim Sadic, who was the commandment of the 2nd Corps.
11 Mr. Makar, you testified yesterday on page 79 of the transcript
12 that the situation in Herceg-Bosna in the month of April was tense. You
13 agreed that was true. However, you said you were not aware of the
14 ultimatum at the beginning of April. But were you aware of the events in
15 Ahmici on April 16th?
16 A. I learned about the events in Ahmici -- well, I don't know the
17 exact date, but I learned about that subsequently and indirectly.
18 Q. All right. And this letter is dated the same date as Ahmici, and
19 it says:
20 "Based on the analysis of the situation at the area of
21 North-Eastern Bosnia, region of Tuzla
22 7th Corps of Serbian-Montenegro aggressor, we are announcing that because
23 of the events in Herzegovina
24 situation at the zone of the responsibility of the 2nd Corps is growing
25 more difficult."
1 And he goes on to talk about what he hoped the BH government
2 could do. But the last paragraph is where I would like to focus, and it
4 "With objective to conduct armed combat at the 2nd Corps
5 responsibility zone, we request that convoys currently at Grude are to be
6 immediately secured a passage (under armed escort) towards the 2nd Corps
7 responsibility zone, and they are going to receive the convoy with their
8 armed escort."
9 Sir, would you agree with me that at least by April 16th, convoys
10 to the 2nd Corps from Grude had been stalled?
11 A. I didn't understand your question. Were the convoys stopped, was
12 that your question?
13 Q. Sir, my question is: Mr. Sadic wrote this, and do you agree that
14 on April 16th he is asking for the release of convoys at Grude?
15 A. No, I don't agree. That was not the idea. This was a convoy
16 which arrived normally, but because of the situation the commander asked
17 that a special escort be provided so that the convoy could reach the area
18 of the 2nd Corps more securely, and it has to do with what you misread,
19 because of the constant activity of 7 Corps. You said "the 7th Corps,"
20 but actually it's 7 Corps of the Serb Army were attacking the 2nd Corps,
21 which is why it was necessary for the convoy to have an armed escort in
22 order to arrive safely.
23 Q. Mr. Makar, let's move forward a few days, three days forward, and
24 go to P10897 --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a very short question,
2 I'm trying to understand how the civilian authorities intervened
3 in military operations. It's sometimes very difficult to understand, and
4 before me here I have a document which is probably a telex, because
5 there's no signature on it. This document says that it is strictly
6 confidential, classified, urgent, a very urgent document, which comes
7 from the 2nd Corps. As far as I know, the 2nd Corps is a military body,
8 and all of a sudden here, in this document of a military nature, we see
9 the names of three civilian representatives; the president of the region
10 of Tuzla
11 Community of Soli, and the county of Tuzla
12 How can you explain this, that the civilian authorities are mentioned and
13 seem to be playing a part in this document, which comes from a military
15 That said, the document mentions the fact that the conflict
16 should be stopped, that a joint command should be set up, and so on and
17 so forth. This seems to be a document of a purely military nature, and
18 the civilian authorities are mentioned in this document.
19 Do you have an answer to give me?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do have a response.
21 This document is linked with a document we have just discussed, 111111 --
22 01111. That's the statement or, rather, the letter compiled based on my
23 visit to Mostar and sent both to the Presidency and the Supreme Command
24 Staff and to Mr. Rasim Delic. The civilian authorities in the Tuzla
25 district, in the 2nd Corps area, was a district. There were municipal
1 authorities, there were civilian police organs, there were
2 fully-established civilian authorities there, as far as was possible in
3 wartime conditions. We closely cooperated with the organs of the
4 district and the municipality. Competencies were strictly separated.
5 The Command of the 2nd Corps was responsible for armed combat, whereas
6 the organs of the civilian authorities, whether district or municipal,
7 were responsible for providing the material and other conditions, raising
8 manpower levels and so on, for the conduct of the armed struggle.
9 In every situation where this was necessary, the Presidency of
10 the district, the mayors of the municipalities and the presidents of the
11 then crisis staffs would meet, together with the representatives of both
12 religious communities of both religions, and with the narrower part of
13 the 2nd Corps Command. At these meetings, we would be informed of the
14 political views of the civilian authorities relating to the activities of
15 the 2nd Corps.
16 So let me go back a little. The civilian authorities were fully
17 informed of all the conclusions reached at the meeting in Mostar,
18 document 011111. Because of the events which were developing fast after
19 such meetings, this sort of document was drawn up. It is, I would call
20 it, a civilian/military document. As a corps, the corps commander, for
21 example, could not write to the Presidency of the Republic, but it could
22 be done through the president of the district or the region of Tuzla
23 That's why both the district president and the commander of the 2nd Corps
24 signed the document.
25 As the situation in our area was such that both the HVO -- that
1 the HVO was also involved in the same struggle, the signature of the
2 president of the HVO, Ivo Andric, is there too, as well as the signature
3 of Selim Beslagic, who was one of the most prominent representatives of
5 why the document is the way it is. And you can see that this document,
6 if you look at the bottom, it says that Commander Arif Pasalic is
7 certifying the correctness of the copy, and you can see that this is the
8 Command of the 4th Corps in Mostar. It follows logically from this that
9 the document which arrived in the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina was
10 also received by the chief of the Main Staff of the Army of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, who then forwarded it, through the commander of the
12 4th Corps, to Mostar.
13 So that's my explanation.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for your
16 Ms. West.
17 MS. WEST: Thank you.
18 Q. Sir, if we can go to P10897, P10897. This is a document dated
19 April 19th, just three days later.
20 A. Could you please repeat this. 10 --
21 Q. 10897. This is a document dated April 19th --
22 A. Yes, yes, I found it now.
23 Q. It's from General Petkovic. It looks like it's to the 115th
24 Brigade in Tuzla
25 ABiH; correct? In the 2nd Corps, excuse me.
1 A. Your Honours, this is a document issued by the Main Staff of the
2 HVO, sent to the 115th HVO Brigade directly.
3 Q. Mr. Makar, is the 115th HVO Brigade one of the brigades that was
4 under the command -- the operative command of the 2nd Corps?
5 A. Yes, it was under the operative command of the 2nd Corps, and in
6 all combat activities it carried out orders coming from the 2nd Corps.
7 So this order I assume did arrive, but the brigade never implemented it,
8 it never obeyed this order.
9 Q. Good enough. Let's go through the order itself. It says:
10 "As the ABiH forces are abandoning all the positions towards
11 Serbs and are being sent to Central Bosnia, I here by order:
12 1. Immediately inform the 2nd Corps Command about the behavior
13 of the ABiH;
14 2. Inform them that you, "the 115th, "are abandoning positions
15 towards Serbs;
16 3. Organise the defence of the Croatian people;
17 4. Pass this order to the 108th;
18 5. Trust me, I have issued this order heavy-heartedly, but in
19 the name of Croats from Central Bosnia, I had no other choice."
20 Sir, my first question to you regards the first sentence, it
21 says: "As the ABiH forces are abandoning all the positions towards the
22 Serbs and are being sent to Central Bosnia." Did that happen?
23 A. I don't know whether this happened, but it certainly didn't
24 happen in the 2nd Corps, nor did the BH Army abandon the positions
25 towards the Serbs - I'm referring to the brigades of the 2nd Corps - nor
1 did any HVO units abandon their positions towards the Serbs, but I am
2 referring only to the 2nd Corps now.
3 Q. And would you agree with me that it appears the reason
4 General Petkovic sent this order for the 115th to abandon was because he
5 wanted them to come back to Central Bosnia, and, under number 3, organise
6 the defence of the Croatian people?
7 A. Your Honours, I cannot know what General Petkovic thought or
8 meant, either then or now.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, we all have
10 Mr. Petkovic's order before us. If we read this order, we see that
11 General Petkovic seemingly had that the ABiH abandon their positions
12 towards the Serbs. According to this information, the ABiH is going
13 towards Central Bosnia. Perhaps an offensive is being prepared in
14 Central Bosnia
15 and there are five items contained in this order. He first of all asks
16 the 115 Brigade to advise the Command of the 2nd Corps about the
17 behaviour of the ABiH, to inform it about the fact that the positions
18 have been abandoned, to organise a defence of the Croatian people, to
19 pass this on to the 108th Brigade. Therefore, there is a military
20 situation that ensues from this document.
21 Was General Petkovic misinformed, or is what he is saying right;
22 in other words, the ABiH is dropping its position towards the Serbs and
23 moving into Central Bosnia, and of course this does have an impact on the
24 HVO that must keep the Serbs within the lines, but that must also protect
25 the Croats?
1 Ms. West is putting forward another idea, as far as this document
2 is concerned. What can you tell us? From what I understood, you said
3 you didn't know anything about it. You know nothing about it, if that is
4 the case, but I found that a little bit surprising, because the 115th
5 Brigade was to inform the Command of the 2nd Corps. That said, it must
6 have been a matter of some urgency, because you can see, as I can, that
7 this telegram was sent at 2340. The time is important.
8 Sir, before we have the break --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, and what is the
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So my question is as follows:
12 The military situation described in this document is the military
13 situation which you experienced, i.e., the fact that the ABiH abandon
14 their positions towards the Serbs so that the ABiH could go to
15 Central Bosnia
16 2nd Corps to be informed, but also to maintain their positions vis-a-vis
17 the Serbs, because if they have nothing before them, then they can just
18 advance and attack?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I said
20 clearly, and I answered the question clearly, in the 2nd Corps not a
21 single unit of the BH Army, not a brigade of the 13th, not a single
22 brigade of the HVO, abandoned their positions facing the Serbs. Had just
23 one brigade done that, or part of a brigade done that, we might not be
24 sitting here today, or at least I certainly wouldn't. It would have been
25 a catastrophe. We couldn't set aside a single unit, and there was no
1 point in discussing anything like that. So I can confirm, once again,
2 let me state, that in the 2nd Corps not a single BH Army unit, not a
3 single HVO unit, left their positions or went towards Central Bosnia or
4 anywhere else from the 2nd Corps zone, at all. And Zvonko Juric was a
5 very serious and intelligent person, and he probably assessed that there
6 was no point in discussing the matter further.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So should we draw
8 the conclusion that General Petkovic was misinformed, or do you think
9 that there could be another reason for that?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, Your Honour, if
11 that refers to what I was saying about the 2nd Corps, then
12 General Petkovic was completely misinformed.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 We're going to have a break.
15 And, Ms. West, I think that you have about 34 or 32 minutes left.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please proceed.
19 MS. WEST:
20 Q. Mr. Makar, the last trip that you took to Mostar was May 1st and
21 2nd; correct?
22 A. I think it was the 30th of April and 1st and 2nd of May. But,
23 yes, roughly, that's right.
24 Q. Okay. And you were able to negotiate MTS and bring it back to
25 the 2nd Corps during that trip; correct?
1 A. Madam Prosecutor, it wasn't exactly like that. It was very
2 complicated, but I can confirm that I did bring all the MTS or
3 practically all the MTS over, yes.
4 Q. You agree with me that the last MTS documents upon which you have
5 testified, the last date is May 2nd?
6 A. I agree they were documents about procurement or, rather, what I
7 did and where I was and how long I was there, because later on other
8 people went. I didn't go anymore.
9 Q. Are you aware of events in Mostar in the month of May of 1993?
10 A. In what sense do you mean am I aware of events? Which events?
11 Q. Were you aware that beginning on May 9th, there was a roundup of
12 Muslims living in Mostar who were put in detention?
13 A. I assume you mean whether I knew that at that time, whether I was
14 aware of that at that time, and the answer is, no, I learnt about that
15 later on.
16 Q. All right. On Monday of this week, you testified -- well, you
17 gave some testimony, and you were talking about the enemy and what you
18 were protecting. And on page 74 of the transcript, you said, I quote:
19 "As far as we were concerned, Chetniks were the ones who attacked
20 us. Those who attacked us and those did not want to live in community as
21 we had been living up until then, they wished to destroy the values of
22 the life -- the kind of life up until then."
23 Do you remember that testimony?
24 A. I do remember, but you didn't quote that correctly. In the
25 second sentence, it says "not want to live," so people who no longer
1 wished to live as they had been living until then, so people who wanted
2 something else, and that's what I said, the Greater Serbia Project.
3 Q. So, is it your testimony, sir, that as a Croat, BH Army soldier
4 living in Tuzla
5 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I always said that I went to the
6 war to defend -- to defend myself, to save my own life, my family's
7 lives, the friends, and people I'd lived with until then and who also
8 wanted to defend the kind of life we were living up until then. We gave
9 no thought to what kind of state we would have afterwards, because it was
10 a matter of survival.
11 Q. And Tuzla
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. And so part of your fighting, you were fighting for the right to
14 live peacefully among Croats, Serbs, and Muslims; correct?
15 A. No, that's not right. We fought so that the citizens could live
16 peacefully and live a normal life, as they had been living up until then.
17 And since that was not the case, we were forced to fight for that kind of
18 life using weapons.
19 Q. Mr. Makar, let's move forward one month after your last visit to
20 Mostar, which was the beginning of May. We're going to move forward to
21 June 15th, and this is 2D00851, 2D00851. The English is in the front,
22 the B/C/S is right behind it. This is a June 15th --
23 A. Yes, I have found it.
24 Q. -- 1993. It's minutes of an HVO meeting with Mr. Prlic and
25 Mr. Stojic in attendance, and it's -- it talks -- in it, it talks about
1 Croats living outside Herceg-Bosna in a place like Tuzla, so let's read
2 part of it and then we'll talk about it.
3 Item 1:
4 "The head of the Defence Department of the HVO, Croatian Defence
5 Council of the HZ-HB, Mr. Bruno Stojic, informed the session of the
6 military and security situation in the territory of the HZ-HB. In his
7 report, he said that the Muslim forces were carrying out coordinated
8 attacks in Central Bosnia and northern Herzegovina to seize areas which,
9 according to the Vance-Owen Plan, were intended to be included in the
10 areas with a majority Croatian authority, that's provinces 8 and 10, to
11 isolate, terrorise, and destroy everything that is Croatian. In the area
12 of Travnik, in the municipalities of Kiseljak, Vitez, and Vares, and in
13 the municipalities of Konjic and Jablanica, as well as in locations where
14 the Croats were in the minority population, for example, in Sarajevo
15 Zenica, Tuzla
16 as a whole is seriously threatened.
17 "The Defence Department of the HVO HZ-HB and the Main Staff are
18 doing everything to protect the people and are taking effective military
19 actions to defend and protect the areas under attack. The difficulties
20 standing in the way of a complete protection of the Croatian people and
21 the area are as follows: a shortage of MTS, problems in carrying out the
22 mobilisation in certain municipalities (Ljubuski and Puselje),
23 ineffectiveness of the military courts, and a lack of political
24 decision-making by the Presidency of the HZ-HB which could decide to
25 withdraw all military units and the Croats living there from areas
1 outside the outlined Croatian provinces, meet with the HVO of the
2 municipalities of Ljubuski and Puselje, and immediately organise the work
3 of the Military Court, and undertake additional efforts to find materiel
4 and technical equipment."
5 Mr. Makar, just go to page 3, and I'm just going to read one more
6 thing. Page 3 of the B/C/S, it's page 3 of the English, and it's
7 number 3 under conclusions, and it says:
8 "A proposal was made to the Presidency of the HZ-HB and the HVO
9 supreme commander to adopt a decision to pull out all military units from
10 areas outside the designated Croatian provinces, together with the
11 Croatian inhabitants living there; to this effect, demand cooperation and
12 assistance from UNPROFOR and UNHCR."
13 Mr. Makar, you're a Croat who's lived in Tuzla for a long time.
14 You would not have left Tuzla
15 HVO, would you?
16 A. The HVO couldn't have ordered me to do that. Only the Main Staff
17 of the Supreme Command of the BH Army could have issued orders to me.
18 Q. I understand you're saying they couldn't do it. Had they done
19 it, had they nonetheless ordered you to do that, would you have left?
20 A. Well, once again, that's a hypothetical question. I wouldn't
21 have left even if I had received orders from goodness knows whom, because
22 my children were there, my family was there, my friends were there, so if
23 we needed to die, we would all die together. So it's a hypothetical
24 question. That's the best I can do with that answer.
25 Q. Back -- we'll go back to the document, and this is page 1 of the
1 English, page 1 of the B/C/S, and at the very bottom of the English. It
3 "In his remarks, Mr. Kvesic upheld the proposal set out by
4 Bruno Stojic and proposed that the BH Army be declared an enemy army, and
5 it's supreme commander, Izetbegovic, a war criminal, because of the
6 crimes committed by the BH Army."
7 Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that the view of the HVO in
8 this case Mr. Stojic, towards the BH Army appears to be quite different
9 then what you described in your direct testimony?
10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, it's
11 Kvesic here. Your Honours, I think the witness understood that, too, but
12 as I'm on my feet, it's not Mr. Stojic's position, as it says in the
13 transcript, but it is Mr. Kvesic, and I think that the witness understood
14 it that way too.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, I had understood
16 the same thing.
17 Ms. West, indeed it seems that it's Mr. Kvesic that said that.
18 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I'll read this one more time, and it is
19 either way, whether it's Stojic or Kvesic:
20 "In his remarks, Mr. Kvesic upheld the proposals --"
21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. West, Kvesic, not Kevic, Kvesic. I think
22 you misspoke last time, and that's why this passage was perhaps not
23 recognised, because it's correct in the transcript.
24 MS. WEST: Thank you.
25 Q. "In his remarks, Mr. K-v-e-s-i-c upheld the proposals set out by
1 Mr. B. Stojic and proposed that the BH Army be declared an enemy army and
2 its supreme commander, Mr. Izetbegovic, a war criminal because of the
3 crimes committed by the army."
4 And so, Mr. Makar, my question to you: Would you agree with me
5 that the view of the HVO towards the BH Army here appears to be quite
6 different than what you described it to be in your direct testimony?
7 A. Madam Prosecutor, it seems that I can't agree with you on many
8 counts. I can't explain and interpret HVO positions. All I can say is
9 what I know. And what I saw is in document 0001, those are the positions
10 I heard from the gentleman when I was there. Now, I can't comment on
11 this document, because I don't know.
12 Q. Your testimony, I believe this was yesterday, it's page 89, you
13 indicated that, and I'll quote:
14 "My standpoint in general is the following: There was no
15 conflict between the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO on the
16 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
17 In regard to this last section that you -- that we just read,
18 would it be fair to say that the HVO disagreed with the assessment that
19 you gave here in court?
20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. West, I'm sorry to intervene. I think your
21 question is not quite correct. You say "the HVO," but we have two
22 persons who spoke here.
23 MS. WEST: Thank you.
24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: So I think it would be correct to say "the
25 opinion of these two persons."
1 MS. WEST: Thank you, Judge Trechsel.
2 Q. So, Mr. Makar, my question is that: Would you agree with me here
3 that these two people that we spoke of have disagreed with -- or at least
4 back then disagreed with the assessment that you gave this Trial Chamber
5 that there was no conflict between the BH Army and the HVO?
6 A. Madam Prosecutor, I can agree with you in saying that what it
7 says here is what it says. If you ask me, Is that what the papers say,
8 then I would say, yes, that's what the paper say, but I don't know that
9 that was the case. Have I made myself clear?
10 Q. No. Because my question is, isn't that -- what's on this paper,
11 isn't that quite different than the testimony that you have to the
12 Trial Chamber?
13 A. Oh, that, yes. That's right.
14 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
15 [Questioned by the Court]
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 Witness, I have a follow-up question regarding this document,
18 which is important in one aspect. It's the 15th of June, 1993, the 42nd
19 session of the Croatian Defence Council of the Croatian Community of
20 Herceg-Bosna, held in Mostar. It's 10.00 a.m. The following
21 participants: Mr. Prlic, who is not in this courtroom; Mr. Zubak;
22 Mr. Buntic; and so on and so forth; and Mr. Stojic, who is in this
23 courtroom today. And at the end of page 1, we have something that seems
24 to me as being important and should be assessed as such. Mr. Kvesic
25 upholds the proposals set out by Mr. Stojic, but that's not what's really
1 important. What is important is what follows. The one or both suggest
2 that the BH Army be declared an enemy army.
3 From your point of view, does that mean that before the 15th of
4 June, 1993
5 A. I don't think the BH Army was an enemy army, as you said,
6 Your Honour Judge Antonetti.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm asking you this
8 question because you are the first witness who, according to you, has
9 three qualities; you are a Croat, you are married to a Serb, and at the
10 time you were part of the ABiH Army. And you are the only witness to
11 have those three features, so you can shed some light on those complex
12 issues, I believe. And from what you said until now, but I may be wrong,
13 and in which case please correct me - if I'm mistaken, I have to have
14 some more light - so I understood that according to you, as part of the
15 2nd Corps, your main objective was to protect citizens, you stressed on
16 this word "citizens," without talking about ethnic groups, such as Serbs
17 or Croats or Muslims, and you were facing the Serbs, or the Serb forces,
18 or Chetniks, I'm not going -- or Chetniks, I'm not going to go into those
19 details. But during this entire period, you actually fought against the
20 Serbs, but the 2nd Corps was actually not fighting against the HVO; is
21 that correct?
22 A. You're quite right, Your Honour Judge Antonetti.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 Ms. Nozica, I'm sure that you have some redirect questions.
25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you, I do
1 have additional questions, and I have a new document, too, which I will
2 hand 'round in the binders.
3 And while the usher is doing that, I'll dwell on the document
4 we've just been looking at.
5 Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:
6 Q. Mr. Makar, we have seen here, in the document shown to you by the
7 Prosecutor, that there is a proposal, and it says Mr. Kvesic supported
8 the proposals of Mr. Bruno Stojic. And he proposes that the BH Army
9 should be proclaimed an enemy army and that supreme commander, because of
10 the crimes that had been committed, should be proclaimed a war criminal.
11 Now, would you look at page 3, which is the last page, and it is
12 page 3 in the English as well, and look at the conclusions there with
13 respect to this.
14 Have you found the document?
15 A. Just tell me the number of the document again, because I closed
16 the file.
17 Q. Yes, I should have done that for the transcript. It is 2D00851.
18 So let's look at the conclusions now.
19 A. Yes, I've found them.
20 Q. I'm going to give you some time to look through them, but can you
21 find anywhere in the conclusions that the HVO made that particular
22 conclusion whereby the BH Army should be declared an enemy army and that
23 Alija Izetbegovic be declared a war criminal?
24 A. I'd have to read through this, to take a moment to read through
25 the conclusions, so if you'd like to wait.
1 Q. Yes, I will give you time to read through it.
2 A. Your Honours and Ms. Nozica, just as I answered the Prosecutor, I
3 could confirm here to you, too, that that's not what it says here. It
4 doesn't say that here.
5 Q. All right, fine. Now, Mr. Makar, throughout your testimony you
6 spoke about how the 2nd Corps did not have any conflicts or wasn't in
7 conflict with the HVO. Now, can you tell the Trial Chamber whether you
8 know whether the other BH Army corps, up until this time, had any
9 conflicts with the HVO perhaps?
10 A. Your Honours, Ms. Nozica, I've already said that it is my general
11 view and position that in Bosnia-Herzegovina, we should not use the word
12 "conflict" and talk about the conflict between the HVO and BH Army,
13 because, based on my own personal analyses, it was not a conflict either
14 on the whole of the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or its majority
15 part, or by virtue of the number of included people. There was not a
16 majority on any side, and judging by the forces involved, the same would
17 apply. And I agree and I can confirm this, that in other corps there
18 were no clashes or conflicts up until the time you mentioned, as far as I
19 know. You rather took me aback with that question, but as far as I know,
20 I don't think so.
21 Q. All right. Now I'd like to go back to when those conflicts
22 started and the HVO position with respect to the conflicts, and I'd like
23 to look at 2D01111.
24 A. Yes, I remember the document.
25 Q. You'll find it in my pink binder, so we can have a look at it.
1 I'm just going to state what you said during both the
2 examination-in-chief and cross-examination, that this is a report written
3 by you after your first visit to Mostar, and it says here after the talks
4 were held, the team conveyed the results of the talks to the central part
5 of the 2nd Corps Command and to the Municipal Presidency of the Tuzla
7 "Based on all the aforementioned, we submit the following
9 Now, first, Mr. Makar, these points, 1 to 1(g) and "Logistics"
10 are these positions that you had voiced at these meetings with
11 Mr. Stojic, Rajic, Praljak, and Petkovic?
12 A. Your Honours, Ms. Nozica, these are precisely the positions and
13 stands that I conveyed exactly related to the Presidency and corps
14 command and so on.
15 Q. So we're talking about February 1993. And in view of the series
16 of questions that you were asked during the cross-examination, I should
17 like to ask you to go through all the conclusions. We'll go through that
18 together to see what the gentlemen from the HVO who were present propose.
19 Under A, it says representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosna are
20 completely ready to consistently implement all items of the agreement
21 between the Presidency president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and the
22 president of the Republic of Croatia
23 Just wait a moment, please, Mr. Makar.
24 Mr. Makar, is that what you were told at those meetings?
25 A. Yes, I can confirm that, that that is precisely what I was told.
1 Q. Now, under B it says Mr. Mate Boban offered the Presidency
2 president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, the text of the joint statement which
3 would remove any misunderstandings between the Croatian and Muslim nation
4 in BiH?
5 A. Yes, I can confirm that that is so.
6 Q. C, representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosna are offering the
7 formation of a joint command of the BiH armed forces and have a proposal
8 from their representatives for that. Is that what you were told at the
9 meeting as well?
10 A. Your Honours, I can confirm that that was the proposal put
11 forward at the meeting by HVO representatives.
12 Q. Under C, the -- I'm sorry, D, different standpoints of the
13 Presidency president of the Republic of BiH
14 in brackets it says "solving the problems in BiH by negotiation," and the
15 chief of the Supreme Command Staff, Mr. Sefer Halilovic, and in brackets
16 it says "not to accept the results of the negotiations but to fight to
17 the end," are causing dissatisfaction in the HVO of Herceg-Bosna, because
18 they suggest that the army is taking upon itself the right to make
19 decisions about political issues.
20 Now, Mr. Makar, were you told that at that same meeting?
21 A. Your Honours, I can confirm that that is what was said.
22 Q. Now we come to E. The grouping of strong BiH forces in
23 Central Bosnia
24 potential danger from a new conflict, and many soldiers were killed and
25 wounded in the conflict so far. All the forces should be turned against
1 the common enemy on the focal axes, and for that purpose, "we request the
2 deployment of three BH Army brigades and one HVO brigade for the
3 operation to deblock Sarajevo
4 Is that what you were told as well?
5 A. Yes, that's what we were told, Your Honours.
6 Q. In connection with these conflicts we spoke about, under F it
7 says the conflicts in Central Bosnia have to be resolved peacefully by
8 means of agreements and meetings between representatives of the HVO and
9 the Staff of the Supreme Command, as well as by an agreement at the level
10 of the president of the Republic and Mr. Mate Boban. Was this also said
11 to you, sir?
12 A. Yes, I can confirm that that's what was said.
13 Q. It says the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and
14 the Supreme Command Staff have to be relocated outside Sarajevo.
15 Unfortunately, we don't have the rest of the text. This is a Prosecution
16 document, but do you remember this being said?
17 A. Yes, I remember that the relocation of these organs outside
19 Q. Mr. Makar, you, yourself, said that you compiled this document
20 personally and it was delivered to the president of the Presidency,
21 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic; to the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command,
22 Mr. Sefer Halilovic; to the Command of the Armed Forces Staff; to the
23 commander, Mr. Rasim Delic; and to Mr. Bruno Stojic, the president of the
24 HVO. And during your examination-in-chief, you said, and it says so here
25 in the first sentence, that you informed the 2nd Corps Command and the
1 Presidency of the Tuzla
2 Do you know whether you ever received a response to this letter
3 from any of these addressees?
4 A. Your Honours, I only wish to say that it was not I who conveyed
5 the results of these talks, but at the meeting there was a whole team. I
6 was there as the Chief of Staff. The commander of Operative Group 2,
7 Osman Puskar was there, and the commander of the 107th HVO Brigade,
8 Ivan Mijacevic was there too. And in response to this question by Madam
9 Nozica, I don't remember that anything about this was sent as a
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Makar.
12 Mr. Makar, there are certain points I'd like to clarify arising
13 from your cross-examination.
14 On several occasions, and I'm talking about the end of 1992 and
15 early 1993, His Honour Judge Antonetti asked you about operations being
16 conducted in the far north of your territory, near this corridor that
17 there was so much mention of, and if I understood you correctly, you said
18 that the Operative Zone of Bosnia and Posavina gave military support to
19 the 2nd Corps. I'm afraid that this was not fully understood in this
20 courtroom, so could you tell the Court whether you had sufficient MTS for
21 you to provide support to the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia, or was it
22 the other way around?
23 A. Your Honours, Madam Nozica, this is the same problem that arose
24 during my cross-examination by the esteemed Prosecutor, Madam West. To
25 clarify things to everybody, it might be best if the map were brought up
1 again so that I could explain what the Operative Group of
2 Bosanska Posavina was and Operative Group 1 of Bosanska Posavina.
3 Q. Well, Mr. Makar, I think you have explained what the operative
4 group was, and you can repeat now what it was, if you like, but which map
5 would you like to see? Is it this one [indicates]?
6 A. Yes, precisely this one.
7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Can we then have the map. Could the
8 usher show this map, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a follow-up question,
11 based on the map. Maybe it's better if I put the question first.
12 General, a while ago Ms. Nozica mentioned the document which
13 talks about the deblocking of Sarajevo
14 I listened to you answer. And then whilst I was listening to you, I
15 looked at the map, and the positions of the 2nd Corps are close to
17 so. But on the map you have before you, where we see the Serb lines in
18 July 1993, if the 2nd Corps was to move towards Sarajevo, it seems to me
19 that this would raise three major issues from a military standpoint: A,
20 on moving towards Sarajevo
21 front -- Serb front-line located at the top could follow you and could
22 encircle you, because the other front-line is lower down. Assuming that
23 the front-line does not follow you, this is what the map indicates. You
24 would have to cut across one front-line between Olovo, Vares, and Visoko.
25 And even if you were to cross this first front-line, you would then hit
1 on a second front-line, which is a line which shows us that Sarajevo
3 Was this a serious military consideration, in other words, that
4 the 2nd Corps could have unblocked Sarajevo in July of 1993, given these
5 parameters I've just submitted to you?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I can
7 answer your question.
8 The document you mentioned, and the proposal which the HVO in
9 Mostar put forward at the talks and we conveyed to the Supreme Command,
10 was to set aside three brigades of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and one
11 brigade of the HVO, but this did not refer to the brigades of what was
12 then the 2nd Corps because, as I've already said, at that time the
13 2nd Corps was simply unable to set aside even a smaller unit than a
14 brigade. That's how fierce the fighting was. I mentioned that when we
15 were talking about the alleged abandonment of positions either by the BH
16 forces or the HVO units. But what would have happened, had part of the
17 forces been sent from the 2nd Corps to deblock Sarajevo, that was not
18 possible at that time, but it was done later on, as regards the
19 2nd Corps.
20 As I've already mentioned, there was an operative defensive, and
21 after that our corps gradually moved to a tactical offensive and, later
22 on, an operative offensive on many parts of the front, and we achieved
23 this in the following way: We set apart parts of our best units to
24 create mobile units which were able to engage in combat in any part of,
25 conditionally speaking, all of Bosnia-Herzegovina. These were the
1 so-called manoeuvre brigades. Once we had done this, in terms of
2 organisation, an attempt was made to lift the siege of Sarajevo, which
3 was not successful. I, personally, with a few other officers from the
4 corps command, brought a brigade, one of these manoeuvre brigades of the
5 2nd Corps, to positions for lifting the siege of Sarajevo. We even
6 reached Trebevic. Up to that point, I hadn't ever been there. I wasn't
7 sure precisely where it was. But as you said quite correctly, the route
8 we took to get there was the one you mentioned, and we arrived at this,
9 as you called it, other line, second line, in order to reach the first
10 line, which is this little circle around Sarajevo, which was our aim, but
11 the attempt was unsuccessful, both as regards our brigade and all the
12 other brigades.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Makar, when asked by His Honour Judge Antonetti, you said the
16 proposal was made by these people from the HVO and that you conveyed it
17 to the Supreme Defence Staff. Was this the Supreme Defence Staff of the
18 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, because that did not enter the transcript, so
19 to whom did you convey this proposal?
20 A. Well, it says in the document that this proposal was made and
21 conveyed to the Main Staff of the Army of the Republic of
23 Q. Very well. You have the map before you. For you to delimit the
24 areas of the Posavina Operative Group and the other group, you have the
25 map. Can you mark this now with -- mark one with one X and the other
1 with two Xs?
2 A. So we will use two Xs, since it's the 2nd Corps. That's the area
3 of the Bosanska Posavina Operative Group, so, conditionally speaking,
4 this is where it was. And to facilitate understanding, where it says
5 "Gracac, Brcko, and Srebrenik" to the south, more or less, that is where
6 the Operative Group within the 2nd Corps was. The
7 Bosanska Posavina/Orasje Operative Group is where there is one X, that's
8 the short red line right next to the River Sava. It contains several HVO
9 brigades, but they had very strong artillery, and I will take the liberty
10 of indicating this by arrows. Their artillery fired towards our defence
11 zone along this whole area which Madam West conditionally named the
12 corridor. That's what I was trying to say. So they were providing
13 artillery support to us because their artillery was stronger than the
14 artillery of our Operative Group 1.
15 Q. Mr. Makar, to make things perfectly clear, where there is one X,
16 is that the Operative Zone of Posavina which is part of the HVO?
17 A. Yes, I said that these were HVO brigades.
18 Q. Were they part of the HVO?
19 A. Yes, they were part of the HVO, they were within its composition.
20 Q. Mr. Makar -- I would now briefly like to pass into private
21 session, because there's a document I want to put to the witness.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Operative Group of
23 the Posavina, you've indicated a cross in that area. It is beyond -- two
24 Xs, all right. But the artillery support which you indicated, well, does
25 this mean that these HVO units were on Croatian territory? Because as
1 you've shown it here, this would be on the other side of the border.
2 This is why I have a question about it.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, it was
4 not without reason that I asked for a map. This map is not very precise,
5 and my hand is not so precise. All these units were on the territory of
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This was an
8 important point.
9 Let's move into private session, please.
10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Just one terminological point we
11 have to clarify.
12 Q. His Honour Judge Antonetti asked you whether the Posavina
13 Operative Group was outside the territory. That's the one marked with
14 one X. Was it an operative group or the Posavina Operative Zone which
15 was part of the HVO?
16 A. Your Honours, I noticed this too, but I think my reply was clear.
17 Judge Antonetti was asking about the Operative Zone Posavina marked with
18 one X, and later we explained this when commenting on this, on the one X.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 38621-38624 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session, and
2 Mr. Kovacic has been authorised by the Chamber to ask a few questions,
3 and the time used will be deducted from his overall time.
4 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:
6 Q. Witness, please, you were shown a map, and you marked some things
7 on it, and you were asked a lot about the map of this Boskoski corridor,
8 P10902 was the number. You have it on the screen.
9 Now, I happened to notice, and bearing in mind your testimony at
10 the beginning, when you said that the plans of the Serb forces had been
11 made 100 years ago and were just revitalised or revived later on, we see
12 here the positions of the JNA or, rather, the Serb forces in the area of
13 the territory of the Republic of Croatia
14 well, all a little to the west of the territory of Yugoslavia
15 Now, if we look at this entire map and this whole area, do you
16 agree that for the JNA or, rather, the Serbs that helped it, it was
17 completely irrelevant, in actual fact, on whose territory -- the
18 territory of which state was the territory that they wished to take
19 control of? In other words, the Serb forces, whether their plans were --
20 plans were to take over territory -- that their plans were to take over
21 territory, take control of territory, regardless of the republic that
22 territory was located in?
23 A. Your Honours --
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second.
25 Ms. West.
1 MS. WEST: Thank you. Although I did not ask this exact
2 question, I was asking it from the Croatian side, the response we got was
3 that he would have to on this, and he didn't want to answer it. And I
4 would say that the same holds here, and that he can cannot speculate.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just wait. I have to confer
6 with my colleagues.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, the Chamber has
9 conferred, given the question raised and the objection raised as well,
10 and we feel that we are speculating here and that, therefore, you are not
11 authorised to ask this question.
12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I'm in
13 your hands, but for the record, and for you, too, I'd just like to say
14 one thing, since I didn't have an opportunity to respond to the objection
15 raised by the Prosecutor.
16 I didn't ask for speculation. The witness, at the very beginning
17 of his testimony, spoke about history and certain Serb strategic
18 documents. And at the end of his testimony now, I just happened to link
19 that up with the situation on the ground with the positions that were
20 indicated here. So I'm not asking for any speculation.
21 Now, my question was whether he is a soldier, and I referred to
22 his profession and his professionalism, whether he is a soldier -- and
23 we've heard the kind of education and training he had, and what he is, a
24 military expert, whether he sees this situation, which I consider --
25 whether he considers the situation to be as I have explained it and as I
1 see it. So it is not speculation. We can have a clear answer from the
2 witness, whatever he chooses to say.
3 And, second, the relevancy of that question is, first of all, to
4 be found in paragraph 232 of the indictment, the international armed
5 conflict area, and partially in paragraph 15, which speaks about
6 conspiracy or the joint criminal enterprise.
7 So this wasn't speculation, and the Prosecutor was wrong on that
8 score. Her question was far different from what I'm asking now.
9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just add a
10 sentence to complete what Mr. Kovacic was just saying.
11 In view of the fact that the witness referred to certain
12 historical documents and plans to create a Greater Serbia, I would just
13 like to emphasise, precisely within the context of what Mr. Kovacic was
14 saying, that the plans to create a Greater Serbia were drawn up at a time
15 when the state of Croatia
16 the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And in those plans for a Greater Serbia
17 they always incorporated the same areas, the same territory, both in
18 today's Croatia
19 predominantly by a Serb population. And so the question by my learned
20 friend Mr. Kovacic, if I understand it correctly, was geared towards that
21 end; that is to say, the plan to create a Greater Serbia on the same
22 area, quite independently of which specific state they would be targeting
23 at this point in time.
24 MS. WEST: If I could only be heard briefly.
25 Your Honour, the witness has indicated a project about
1 Greater Serbia
2 today. He said:
3 "I am here as a fact witness and a specific area of knowledge. I
5 because I have not prepared myself to testify about it."
6 He should not be allowed to speculate.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, the question that
8 you have raised can be touched upon when your expert witness will be
9 brought to this courtroom. I had the opportunity to read his report, and
10 this topic will have ample time to be dealt with when your expert witness
11 will be brought into this courtroom. So this expert witness will be in a
12 much better position than this current witness to testify on this.
13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...
14 please. I completely agree and wholly accept your position, but I think
15 that it is my duty to respond to my colleague saying it was speculation.
16 This is far from speculation, in view of this witness's professional
17 qualifications. Thank you.
18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to adhere to
19 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, I think it is my turn to complete my
20 redirect, because this is a Stojic witness. And so following up to the
21 question that was asked - I don't want to repeat it - in view of your
22 ruling, I'd like to ask the witness about something he ought to know
23 about and the events he ought to know because, because he was a member of
24 the JNA.
25 Mr. Makar, we heard many questions here about how the Serb units
1 were arming themselves in Bosnia-Herzegovina with the attendant parts
2 occupied in Croatia
3 know -- do you have direct knowledge and awareness of the kind of weapons
4 that there were on the territory of the present Republika Srpska and the
5 territory which already in 1991 and 1992 was controlled by the Serb side
6 or, rather, the JNA, or the Yugoslav Army, whichever you prefer, and the
7 attendant paramilitary formations, and where these weapons came from to
8 that area; what the quantities of these weapons, and, generally, can you
9 tell us something about that?
10 MS. WEST: Objection.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead, Ms. West.
12 MS. WEST: This is the redirect of this witness. This has no
13 basis in the cross-examination at all of what we talked about. And this
14 witness indicated on the cross-examination that although these
15 individuals - he wouldn't identify them as Serb soldiers - were going by,
16 he could not identify what they were carrying. So he has no basis to
17 understand what the Serbs were using as weapons, and it's beyond the
18 scope of the cross-examination.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber shall confer. But
20 before we do, Ms. Nozica, please answer.
21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do apologise, but
22 this is a mistake. I did not ask about the weapons which possibly later
23 on arrived through any corridor of some kind. I asked about the weapons
24 and Mr. Makar's knowledge about weapons that arrived before the conflict,
25 and after the conflict in Croatia
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's what I asked him about, not about what
2 possibly arrived subsequently. And let me say straight away that I'm
3 referring to the part of the examination -- the cross-examination
4 conducted by the Prosecutor that Croatia
5 interest to prevent the inflow of the weapons through that corridor. So
6 my question was: What kind of weapons, by the establish -- by the time
7 the corridor was established, did the Serb forces have in
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the territory which they had occupied in Croatia
9 That was my question, to make things clear linked to the objection raised
10 by my learned friend.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, in redirect a
12 question has to be linked to a question that was raised during the
13 cross-examination. And you said that during the cross-examination,
14 Ms. West had touched upon the issue of weapons and of the supply of those
15 weapons, and that your question is in direct line with the
16 cross-examination. Is that how we should understand it?
17 Very well. The Chamber shall confer to see whether they agree.
18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Right, right.
19 MS. WEST: And, Mr. President, if I can just point out one more
20 thing. My apologies, but on page 67, line 12, Ms. Nozica indicated that
21 her redirect was over, and that's when we started the questions of
22 Mr. Kovacic.
23 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, there's two points, if I may.
24 I agree that ordinarily this has been brought about, and we would
25 say for the record that we do take a consistent position that any
1 additional questions from any team that arises out of Prosecution
2 cross-examination should be -- any application for further
3 cross-examination should be made before any re-examination by the
4 Defence. That's the first point.
5 But, Your Honour, be that as it may, the issue is clearly
6 relevant, further questions were allowed, and I would ask that
7 Your Honours exercise your discretion so as to allow one or two
8 additional questions to be put.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Khan.
10 Mr. Kovacic asked the authorisation and we granted it, and then
11 we realised the question could not actually be raised. So Mr. Kovacic
12 did not ask a question, and then your learned colleague stood up to start
13 with a question that had not been raised. So from a proceedings point of
14 view, I'm afraid that this is finished.
15 In any case, the question may be important, but it has already
16 been touched upon at several instances. And the question has been
17 raised, and I could actually answer this question myself. And in any
18 case, this question will also be raised again during the testimony of
19 other witnesses.
20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I completely respect
21 your decision and won't insist upon it, but I stand by the fact that the
22 question does emanate precisely from the cross-examination conducted
23 because what was asked was whether it was in Croatia's interest to arm
24 the 2nd Corps in order to make it impossible for the Serb Army to bring
25 in supplies. I just want to say that I didn't try and do anything
1 outside the Rules, but I do abide by the Trial Chamber's ruling, of
3 MR. KOVACIC: Sorry, sorry, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to correct the
5 transcript. When I said that I could answer myself, it meant that a lot
6 of witnesses testified here and said that when the JNA left the barracks
7 where they were based, they took weapons, and especially those from the
8 territory Defence. It appears in several documents. Some witnesses
9 testified on this, and some other witnesses also said that those weapons
10 had been handed out to Serbs. So that's what I was referring to, and I
11 was referring to the 30.000-odd pages of the transcript.
12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That is
13 precisely what I wanted the witness to confirm. Thank you for saying
15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to ease the atmosphere
16 a bit, I hope you won't deduct those two minutes that I've spent.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, it won't be deducted.
18 Mr. Petkovic.
19 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like you to ask
20 you to ask the witness, to resolve the question of the corridor and the
21 influence of Croatia
22 along the River Sava, whether the Croatian Army was there and which
23 brigades were deployed along the River Sava, including the town of Brcko
24 and then we've solved the problem of the control of this passage or
1 MS. WEST: Mr. President --
2 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber shall confer.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber conferred on the
6 request of General Petkovic, and we feel that the hearing of this witness
7 is finished. And the witness also said that he had no precise knowledge
8 as to the situation or the condition of the Croat Army on the other side
9 of the Croat border. The question could have been interesting, but the
10 witness had clearly stated, through other questions that were raised,
11 that he had no knowledge of this.
12 Witness, on behalf of my colleagues, I would like to thank you
13 for having come upon the request of Mr. Stojic to testify in this
14 courtroom. I wish you a very safe trip back home, and I will ask the
15 usher to take you out of the courtroom.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and
17 everybody else present in the courtroom.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, I have a -- from a
20 personal point of view, I have a technical question to ask you regarding
21 the objections.
22 In your country, because I believe that you were a practicing
23 lawyer in Sarajevo
25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, certainly,
1 certainly they do object, and I have to acknowledge, as my colleague
2 Mr. Kovacic said to ease the atmosphere, they do respect them. It's a
3 right. I don't know why you're asking me that, whether because I stand
4 up to object and I seem to do that most frequently in the courtroom.
5 But, yes, it's true that in my system, objection is allowed, because if
6 we weren't allowed to raise objections, then procedure might follow a
7 path which is not commensurate to the path prescribed.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for this
10 As for next week, we have a witness for two hours. The
11 Prosecutor has made a written motion, and the Chamber shall render a
12 written decision on this. For the time being, the witness is still
13 planned, and the testimony will happen on Monday, bearing in mind that
14 if, Ms. Nozica, you reduce the time of your examination-in-chief, we
15 could actually be finished with this witness at the end of the day on
16 Monday; otherwise, he will have to stay until Wednesday, because as you
17 know, we are not going to have a hearing on Tuesday due to an
18 international conference which will be held a few metres from this
20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you. We
21 will look into that possibility, that is to say, to curtail the
22 cross-examination, and we will inform the Chamber thereof -- or
23 examination-in-chief, and we'll inform you in the course of tomorrow.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 I would like to know whether anybody else wants to raise a
1 question of an administrative nature, since we have some time. It's
2 actually a very rare commodity.
3 Yes, Mr. Praljak.
4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I apologise to the
5 Trial Chamber because sometimes I can't suppress my reactions, so please
6 understand that it's just my desire to establish the facts, nothing more
7 than that, when I have the reactions I have.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, and I had fully
9 understood this. I have said it, on a personal note, that staying put
10 for hours on end without saying anything is very difficult. But please
11 try, in future, when you feel like saying something, to write a note to
12 your counsel and to ask for help on his or her side, and your counsels
13 will intervene.
14 Ms. West.
15 MS. WEST: The Trial Chamber had inquired about the map entitled
16 "Posavina Corridor," and I understand that it's a map that was made in
17 1995, but it is based on April 1994 in that area.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. West. This is
19 precisely what I had said. You will see that in the transcript. This is
20 what I had mentioned, but we can have a look at this. But in any case,
21 thank you very much for bringing this point of clarification.
22 I would like to thank everyone, and we will meet again on Monday
23 at 1415.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.32 p.m.
25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of March,
1 2009, at 2.15 p.m.