1 Monday, 6 April 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Prlic and Coric not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call
7 the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
9 everyone in and around the courtroom.
10 This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus
11 Prlic et al.
12 Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
14 Today is Monday, the 6th of April, 2009. I would like, first of
15 all, to greet the accused, the Defence counsel, Mr. Scott and his
16 associate, as well as all the people assisting us in this courtroom.
17 I shall first of all give the floor to the Registrar, who has six
18 IC numbers to give us.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 2D has submitted its responses to the Prosecution's objections to
21 its document tendered via Witness Mario Milos and Andjelko Makar. These
22 lists shall be given Exhibit numbers IC980 and 981 respectively. The
23 Prosecution has submitted its objections to documents tendered by 2D via
24 Witness Dragutin Cehulic. This list shall be given Exhibit number IC982.
25 Some parties have also submitted lists of documents to be tendered
1 through witness Kresic, Tomislav. The list submitted by 2D shall be
2 given Exhibit IC983. The list submitted by 1D shall be given
3 Exhibit IC984, and the list submitted by the Prosecution shall be given
4 Exhibit IC985.
5 Thank you, Your Honours.
6 THE COURT: Thank you, Registrar, for all those IC numbers.
7 The Trial Chamber is about to hand out two decisions:
8 First oral decision dealing with the Prosecution's motion
9 requesting a complement for the 65 ter summary of Kresimir Zubak's
11 On April 3rd, 2009
12 to order the Stojic Defence to provide an appropriate summary of
13 Kresimir Zubak's testimony, in accordance with Article 65 ter(G) of the
14 Rules for April 8, 2009
15 On April 6, 2009
16 no longer wished to call Mr. Kresimir Zubak, who had been scheduled for
17 April 20th to April 23rd.
18 Consequently, the Trial Chamber believes that the Prosecution's
19 motion is now moot.
20 The second oral decision on the filing by Prosecution of
21 additional information regarding Exhibit P03630.
22 On March 27, 2009
23 it had regarding Exhibit P03630; i.e., seven documents. This exhibit had
24 been admitted by the Trial Chamber on September 3rd, 2007, and was shown
25 again by Prosecution on March 19, 2009
1 during the cross-examination of Ivan Bandic, a Stojic Defence witness.
2 The Trial Chamber notes that the seven documents are not numbered, and
3 notes that the Prosecution did not file any request for the admission of
4 these seven documents.
5 Given the observations provided by Prosecution and by the accused
6 Coric during the hearing of March 23rd, 2009
7 the Prosecution to number these seven documents and to file exceptionally
8 a correct request for admission of the seven documents.
9 This is the second oral decision to be rendered.
10 We were supposed to hear a witness today, and we have been told
11 at the beginning of the afternoon that for reasons which the Defence
12 cannot control, the witness is unable to come to testify today.
13 Ms. Nozica, is that right?
14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour.
15 First of all, good afternoon to all. I would like to provide
16 additional information, in addition to what you've already received.
17 Nevertheless, I would like to raise a number of issues that had better
18 not be raised in open session. Therefore, private session, please.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we move into
20 private session, please.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 38804 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session. We have
16 looked into our schedule. I would like to address this straight away.
17 We have a provisional schedule filed by Mr. Praljak. According
18 to the schedule provided by the Defence, Mr. Praljak should begin on
19 Wednesday, the 6th of May. Insofar as the Stojic Defence team should
20 finish in the week from the 27th to the 30th of April, can I ask whether
21 Mr. Praljak's Defence could not begin on the 4th of May already?
22 In order to do this, may I say this, Ms. Nozica: In light of the
23 changes made to the schedule, if Mr. Bagaric comes from the 20th to the
24 23rd of April, and we then have two witnesses which are on standby for
25 the moment, you should finish on the 30th of April at the latest. Does
1 that mean that after that you have no further witnesses to call?
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
3 I would like to inform the Trial Chamber that what we have been
4 planning so far is to hear this witness on the 27th and 28th. We would
5 try to comply with what we have already promised we would do and hear
6 Witness Mandic viva voce on the 29th, and that would bring our case to an
7 end on the 29th. Not "Bandic" but "Mandic."
8 I would also like to inform the Trial Chamber that our Defence
9 team has also envisaged a joint expert witness, Mr. Mato Arlovic.
10 However, this will be done at a later date, not within the framework of
11 the time given to the Stojic Defence. We will do it later, but we will
12 inform the Trial Chamber in due time.
13 After some other Defence teams are finished with their cases, we
14 will inform you and everybody else when we intend to hear the expert
15 witness in question, and I repeat, he's our joint expert witness.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We've understood
17 all of this.
18 Mr. Kovacic, according to our schedule, Mr. Praljak should have
19 started on Wednesday, the 6th of May. Could he possibly begin on Monday,
20 the 4th of May?
21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have been following
22 the entire situation with regard to the changes to the schedule, and in
23 principle, General Praljak's Defence is ready to start a few days earlier
24 than originally envisaged. General Praljak, as a witness, is also ready
25 to start. He has been ready all this time. We will also inform the
1 Trial Chamber in due course. We will have our summaries ready for
3 Out of an abundance of caution and not to commit myself before
4 the Trial Chamber, I have to say that there's one critical job which
5 needs to be done during our presentation. We have envisaged and
6 allocated some time in our schedule, but I have not checked whether this
7 we will be able to do. I'm not sure that we'll be able -- I have not
8 been able to check, and the job in question is the physical photocopying
9 of the documents that we are supposed to disclose to the other party and
10 to the Trial Chamber. The lists of documents and the summaries will be
11 submitted before the end of this week, but when it comes to photocopying,
12 you know that this is a time-consuming job, and I have to check whether
13 any corners can be cut there. I believe that it can be done, but I can't
14 promise anything in advance because this is beyond my control, although
15 as I say, I don't think there will be any problem with that. And if you
16 allow me, in a day or two I would be able to tell you exactly whether
17 I'll be able to do that.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Kovacic.
19 According to your chart, Mr. Praljak would make his 84, 84 bis
20 statement on the first day and then the examination-in-chief would start.
21 I've done my sums. There would be nine days of hearing during which
22 General Praljak will be the subject of the examination-in-chief, and the
23 cross-examination, according to your chart, would begin on the 25th of
24 May. I believe that that would be the cross-examination by the other
25 accused, and the cross-examination by the Prosecution would run from the
1 2nd of June until the 11th of June, which means that General Praljak will
2 be testifying for nine days. Is that what you have planned to do?
3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In keeping with
4 your suggestion provided last week, we have submitted a new schedule with
5 amendments, and we have taken into account not only the time required by
6 the Defence for examination-in-chief; we have added to that the
7 coefficient necessary based on previous experience. I believe that you
8 have been able to see that -- I believe that it will last longer than the
9 dates that you have mentioned. In any case, we have provided a very
10 precise schedule, and in addition to that we have provided an annex which
11 shows exactly all the methods, i.e., the arithmetic that was used to come
12 up with the schedule. The arithmetics follows your suggestions, and I
13 believe that it must be correct.
14 Thank you.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 According to the chart for May and June, the last witness in May
17 would be Mr. Vlado Sakic. I assume that your other witnesses will come
18 in July. Is that right?
19 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, correct, Your Honour.
20 [In English] There is an error in transcript. In July,
21 Your Honour.
22 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour.
23 It seems to be that the Chamber may be referring to an earlier
24 schedule. A revised schedule was provided by the Praljak Defence
25 recently which takes Mr. Praljak's testimony through -- through and
1 including the 7th of July, 2009. It may be that the chart the Chamber
2 may be looking at or some of the Chamber may be looking at is outdated.
3 Is that correct, Counsel? Maybe Mr. Kovacic could correct us on this.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, in the last chart
5 we have the up-to-date chart, Mr. Praljak will testify until the 9th of
7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, Your Honour,
8 and this is in keeping with the second revised schedule. Unlike the
9 previous schedules, this one has taken into account -- and if you have
10 the paper in front of you, you will see that there is another piece of
11 paper which provides the exact methodology that was used to calculate the
12 time, and you will see that we have also taken into account the time for
13 procedural matters and all the other time-consuming issues.
14 After General Praljak, we have scheduled two experts, and that
15 brings our schedule to an end. In due time, we will provide our schedule
16 for the rest of the witnesses that we have envisaged.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 Since we are looking at our schedule for July, the Court will
19 adjourn on Thursday, the 16th of July, and we shall reconvene on the
20 17th of August, which I believe is a Monday. So make your arrangements
21 accordingly, particularly if you have any requests for provisional
22 release, so that the Prosecution is able to respond and so that the
23 Trial Chamber is able to rule on each and every motion. You know that
24 this is a process that takes time. If the Prosecution wishes to appeal
25 the decision, the Trial Chamber needs to have enough time to review the
1 matter, and everything has to be organised, in the event of a provisional
2 release for the accused to be able to released on the 20th of July. So
3 make sure you prepare this beforehand so that the Trial Chamber has
4 enough time to hand out its decision. Last time, we had to hand down a
5 very long decision, reasoned decisions, we need to have the motion filed
6 by the parties and the response provided by the Prosecution.
7 Mr. Kovacic, your expert, I believe you have a witness by the
8 name of Arlovic, Mato. Is that the same witness as the one that has been
9 called by the Stojic Defence?
10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I'm bringing two
11 expert witnesses, Professor Dr. Jurcevic and Professor Dr. Sakic. Both
12 reports have, in the meantime, been submitted to the Trial Chamber. The
13 dead-line of 30 days, according to the Rules, and 60-day dead-line,
14 according to your decision, are now running, and if the Prosecution
15 requests that, they will be heard after General Praljak. And the expert
16 witness that was mentioned by my colleague Senka Nozica,
17 Dr. Mato Arlovic, let me remind you according to the 65 ter list it says
18 that this is an expert witness of all Defence teams, and my learned
19 friend Nozica has taken it upon herself to do the technical part of the
20 job. And that's why she mentioned him as a witness who would be coming
21 after the other Defence teams have finished with their cases, and it
22 still remains to be seen when that will happen.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for this
24 clarification, which enables us to understand the schedule better.
25 It's a shame that your witness is not coming today, the one that
1 had been scheduled for today, I mean. We understand fully why this
2 person has not been able to come.
3 We have not been running late much. In fact, I believe that
4 since January we have heard all the witnesses, we have kept up the pace.
5 Sometimes we run a little late, but I don't think we've lost more than
6 five days. So we hope to see this witness as soon as it is made
8 Would any of the Defence teams like to add anything? Mr. Khan,
9 you're very quiet today. Mr. Karnavas, no questions? Ms. Alaburic? No
10 one wishes to say anything.
11 Mr. Scott, you're also very quiet. No questions?
12 MR. SCOTT: Well, I'll have to disrupt the flow a little bit,
13 Your Honour, and have a couple of -- one or two comments or questions,
14 with the Chamber's indulgence.
15 I failed to say earlier, when I was first on my feet, good
16 afternoon, Your Honours, good afternoon to each of Your Honours, and to
17 all those in and around the courtroom.
18 Very briefly, in terms of scheduling, then, and just to be very
19 clear, I did have a number of questions. I might add that in the course
20 of discussions over the last minutes, most of them have been addressed,
21 at least for the time being. Nonetheless, to be very clear, are we to --
22 is the courtroom then to understand that the Praljak Defence will start,
23 in fact, on Monday, the 4th of May, as opposed to Wednesday of that week?
24 Is that --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, will Mr. Praljak
1 begin on Monday, the 4th of May?
2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] We are entirely in the Trial
3 Chamber's hands. We can start on the 4th, if we must, and if not we can
4 start one day after Ms. Nozica is finished. We are ready, and if the
5 Trial Chamber gives us the green light, we will start, with a caveat that
6 the technical part of the job can be done. I believe that it can be, but
7 I can't tell you anything for sure until I am absolutely certain.
8 General Praljak is waving his hands and signalling me that he can
9 start on the 4th.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's ask the
11 question to Mr. Praljak.
12 On Monday, May 4th, you'll be ready, Mr. Praljak?
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,
14 Your Honours.
15 To be honest, as far as I'm concerned, I've been ready for years.
16 In any case, whenever you so wish, I can start. So far, this has just
17 been the case of technical preparations, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm
18 ready, physically, mentally, and technically, to put it that way, on the
19 4th, yes.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 So, Mr. Scott, normally on May 4th, Mr. Praljak will start
23 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MR. SCOTT: My apologies.
1 Thank you, Mr. President.
2 The final thing we would raise, then, for today would be that
3 last -- the end of last week, the Praljak Defence filed a response to a
4 motion that the Prosecution filed in connection with the Praljak
5 Rule 65 ter summaries. The Prosecution respectfully submits that a brief
6 reply to that response would be in order, and we would ask for leave to
7 file a brief response by Thursday this week, which I believe is the 9th,
8 if the Chamber would agree.
9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with regard
10 the short summary requested by the Prosecution -- it's not that. In any
11 case, I would like to say something.
12 When it comes to our work with the witnesses, we talked about
13 events. When you present a theory, when you write a book, then at the
14 end you can have a summary of the basic theses that were presented at one
15 point. However, when a witness testifies about an event which starts
16 with first things first, then, "I went to the kitchen, then I went out
17 for a walk," it's very difficult to make a summary of such accounts. You
18 can't make a summary of somebody being in the kitchen and then going for
19 a walk. You can maybe put it in just one sentence: "This person has
20 testified about this or that." That's why I believe the testimonies or
21 statements of that sort have to be read in their entirety, because an
22 event cannot be summarised or broken down into sequences without omitting
23 important parts. This is not a theory. This is not a story about
24 general events or a political situation that can easily be summarised.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The only question that the
1 Trial Chamber has to solve is the following: The Prosecution is asking
2 for an additional dead-line for the reply. I think they're asking until
3 Thursday. Let me consult with my fellow Judges.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, before granting you
6 leave, the Trial Chamber would like to know exactly what are the grounds
7 in the reply that you wish to file by Thursday.
8 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Your Honours, we believe that there is several points that were
10 raised in the Defence filings that mischaracterised the Prosecution
11 position or require further response.
12 Just as one example, the Prosecution is very, unfortunately,
13 accused of filing these motions simply as a delaying or tactical matter.
14 That is absolutely clearly not the case, and I hope the Chamber has
15 observed the Prosecution's behaviour since at least April of 2006. That
16 is not our practice. We tend to be, in fact, in my view, with all great
17 respect, rather economic in the filings and submissions that we make. We
18 would anticipate making a very brief reply to a few points that have been
19 raised in the response that we do think would be helpful to the Chamber.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Exceptionally, the
21 Trial Chamber will grant you leave and we'll give you until Thursday to
23 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Everyone took the
25 floor. I would like to thank everyone who took the floor.
1 We'll resume tomorrow at 2.15 for the witness, who will be ready
2 tomorrow at 2.15. Is that it, Ms. Nozica, we'll have a witness for 2.15?
3 Very well. I wish everyone a pleasant afternoon, and we'll see
4 each other tomorrow at 2.15.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.51 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of April,
7 2009, at 2.15 p.m.