Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 38816

 1                           Tuesday, 7 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Prlic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Prlic et al.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

14             This is Tuesday, April 7th, 2009.  I would like to greet the

15     accused, notably Mr. Coric, who is back with us.  I also would like to

16     greet counsels for Defence, all members of the OTP, and everyone helping

17     us.

18             I will first give the floor to our Registrar, because I believe

19     he has an IC number to give us.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             2D has submitted its response to the Prosecution's objections to

22     its documents tendered through Witness Dragutin Cehulic.  This list shall

23     be given Exhibit IC986.

24             Thank you, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

Page 38817

 1             The Trial Chamber is going to now issue two oral decisions, the

 2     first one on the visit of the family of Mr. Praljak when he will be

 3     testifying in this case.

 4             At the hearing of the 1st of April, 2009, the accused Praljak

 5     asked the Chamber to let his family members visit him for the time he

 6     will be testifying as a witness as part of his defence.  The Trial

 7     Chamber notes that it is only the Registry who can organise these visits

 8     at the UNDU.  The Trial Chamber also notes that the accused Praljak is

 9     due to testify for two months, approximately.

10             The Trial Chamber feels that there are no grounds that warrant a

11     prohibition of these visits, due to the fact that his testimony will last

12     a very long time.

13             Second oral decision, decision on the motion made by the

14     Stojic Defence to add Exhibit 2D01533 on its 65 ter(G) list.

15             On April 4th, 2009, the Stojic Defence filed a motion to add

16     Exhibit 2D01533, which is an order by Bruno Stojic, dated March 22nd,

17     1993, and addressing the appointment of lower-ranking officers within the

18     Herceg Stjepan Brigade on its 65 ter(G) list in order to show it to

19     Witness Drago Juric.

20             During the hearing of April 6th, 2009, the Stojic Defence told

21     the Trial Chamber that it had postponed the testimony of Witness

22     Drago Juric from April 6 and 7, 2009, to April 27 and 28, 2009.  The

23     Trial Chamber notes that Exhibit 2D01533 addresses the power held by the

24     accused Bruno Stojic in relation to appointments and is interesting in

25     light of the interpretation of Article 34 of the Decree on Armed Forces

Page 38818

 1     of the HZ-HB.

 2             The Trial Chamber believes that the Stojic Defence did not

 3     demonstrate that Exhibit 2D01533 is essential to the case of the accused

 4     Stojic, as required on paragraph 26 of the 8th guide-line defined in the

 5     Trial Chamber's decision of April 24th, 2008.  The Trial Chamber notes

 6     that it has already heard enough evidence on this item.  Therefore, on

 7     these grounds and given that the motion was filed extremely late, the

 8     Trial Chamber decides to dismiss Bruno Stojic's motion to add an exhibit.

 9             So in a nutshell, the Trial Chamber believed that this exhibit

10     was not necessary, given the abundance of evidence that we already have

11     on this, and it was not necessary to add it to the 65 ter list.

12             Mr. Kovacic, if you are very brief, please start.

13             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will be brief.

14             The Prosecutor, on the 3rd of April, made a submission,

15     Prosecution response to Praljak's notice regarding the upcoming

16     statements, pursuant to Rules 84 and 84 bis.  Your Honours, in procedural

17     terms, this is an erroneous title, because the title of the submission is

18     "Response," although it is a request for the Trial Chamber to hand down

19     some decisions.  A response cannot call for any decisions to be made, and

20     for procedural reasons this submission should be rejected.  We cannot

21     respond to their submissions, since the Prosecution decided to call it a

22     response.  Very simply, we don't see any basis for you to allow us to

23     reply to that.  And actually it is a reply to our notice, and the notice

24     does not require a response.  The Prosecution could have filed a notice

25     or a motion.  This situation is not clear, and we deem that, in

Page 38819

 1     procedural terms, this is a mistake.

 2             And the second issue is this:  The Prosecution do not demonstrate

 3     any dignity towards this Tribunal, because the Trial Chamber has already

 4     handed down a decision on the right of General Praljak to be able to

 5     continue his testimony according to Rule 84 and 84 bis.  Thus, the

 6     decision has been made, and in that sense the Prosecution could have

 7     reacted at the moment when the decision was handed down, and that was a

 8     long time ago, many months ago.  There was no reason for them to stall

 9     their response for such a long time.

10             And the third argument that I would like you to bear in mind is

11     this:  We planned for General Praljak's defence based on the previous

12     decision made by the Trial Chamber, which said that they would allow for

13     an additional statement or testimony, and we prepared everything based on

14     that presumption, based on that decision, and now the Prosecution

15     responds and debates whether this was correct or not.  There are some

16     other elements there, but I don't want to go into details, because I just

17     want it to be noted that we object to this submission, for formal and

18     legal reasons, and that we do not want to reply in writing, because we

19     simply don't know how to react, because this submission was made contrary

20     to any Rules.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your position is noted on the

22     transcript.

23             The Coric Defence and then Mr. Scott.

24             MR. PLAVEC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just briefly.

25             Mr. Coric's Defence would like to propose an ex parte session

Page 38820

 1     after today's session, and the subject will be health issues and the

 2     health condition of Mr. Coric.  We are kindly requesting to the

 3     Trial Chamber to make the decision as quickly as possible.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will try to be brief.

 5             Mr. Scott.

 6             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             Good afternoon, Mr. President, each of Your Honours, Counsel, all

 8     those in and around the courtroom.

 9             Ever so briefly, Mr. President:  I'm disappointed and find it

10     unfortunate that for the last some days now, Mr. Kovacic seems absolutely

11     determined to accuse the Prosecution of bad faith on every possible

12     occasion.  This is form over substance.  The Praljak Defence filed a

13     pleading that they called "Notice."  I can't -- the Prosecution can't

14     control, of course, what they put on the face of their pleading -- called

15     it a notice, taking a position, and I think it's entirely appropriate for

16     the Prosecution in such a situation to file a response to information

17     provided to the Chamber, asking -- either stating or asserting that

18     certain action will take place.  So I think it was entirely appropriate

19     for us to make our views known.  If the problem is that Mr. Kovacic is

20     concerned whether he can make a response or not, then of course it's up

21     to the Chamber to grant him whatever leave the Chamber deems appropriate,

22     but it would be simply form over substance to say that the Prosecution

23     could somehow be held silent and simply not to respond or make its

24     position known in response to a pleading filed by the Defence.

25             Now in connection, Your Honour, one -- 30 seconds more:  In

Page 38821

 1     connection with Mr. Kovacic's repeated assertions that the issue has

 2     already been resolved, I think with the greatest respect, Your Honour,

 3     and I do mean this with the utmost respect, I think the earlier

 4     commentary in the transcript was that the Mr. President was preliminarily

 5     of the view that it would be allowed.  I do not believe there is a

 6     Trial Chamber decision on the topic of whether Mr. Praljak will, in fact,

 7     be allowed to make a second opening statement, and we have stated our

 8     position on that, Your Honours.  And even if I'm wrong in my

 9     understanding of the transcript, that would nonetheless be our position.

10     And given the history in this case to date, which includes, I might

11     remind the Chamber, the denial of Mr. Prlic's attempt to make a second

12     statement, inconsistent with that ruling and inconsistent -- I think the

13     better practice in these proceedings to date, the Prosecution indeed does

14     oppose any second opening statement by the Praljak -- by Mr. Praljak or

15     his Defence.  He has done that.  The Rules provides for one opening

16     statement.  He did so.  It's time to move on.  If he wants to be heard

17     again, he can take the witness stand, take the oath, and give his

18     testimony like all other witnesses.

19             And that's the position, Your Honour.  Thank you very much.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's bring the

21     witness into the courtroom.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning [as interpreted],

24     sir -- good afternoon.  Could you please give me your name, surname, and

25     date of birth.

Page 38822

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Davor Korac.  10 September 1959.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your occupation at the

 3     moment, please?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a degree in Economics, and I

 5     am working for a private company, dealing in the trade of goods.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified in a

 7     court regarding what happened in the former Yugoslavia or this is the

 8     first time that you're testifying?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my first time.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read the

11     solemn declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  DAVOR KORAC

15                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  You may sit

17     down.

18             Let me give you some information on what will happen.  You are

19     going to answer questions put to you by Ms. Nozica.  She might show you a

20     number of documents; I don't know yet.  Then after this stage, maybe the

21     other counsel of Defence will also put questions to you, and then the

22     Prosecution -- the Prosecutor will cross-examine you, if need be.  And

23     the Judges on the Bench can also put questions to you if they believe

24     that it is useful.

25             Please try and be brief in your answers.  And if you don't

Page 38823

 1     understand the meaning of a question, just ask the person putting the

 2     question to you to rephrase it.

 3             Ms. Nozica, you have the floor.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good afternoon,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             Before I begin, I would like to say that my examination may last

 7     longer than an hour.  I hope not, but given the Prosecutor's objections

 8     that we have received recently, and our replies, with regard to the

 9     documents in respect of Mr. Dragutin Cehulic, I believe that the Trial

10     Chamber has seen that for this witness we have three documents that

11     consist of several invoices.  The witness has seen all these documents,

12     but at this moment, in order to avoid any risk of future objections and

13     possible decisions on the part of the Trial Chamber which might disallow

14     the admission of these documents, I am prepared to go over all of these

15     documents with the witness, and that's why my examination-in-chief might

16     take longer than originally foreseen, which was an hour.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Nozica, to save time, you

18     can say that you went through a number of documents with the witness,

19     this document, that document.  He'll say, "Yes, I saw it," and so forth

20     and so on.  There is no need to introduce a huge number of documents just

21     to say one thing, which is why we issued the oral decision earlier, so

22     you would understand that it's pointless to add tonnes of documents that

23     are all of the same meaning.

24             Please continue.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours.  I will act

Page 38824

 1     according to your instruction.  But when we come to the topic, we will

 2     see why it may be significant to establish the total number of the

 3     invoices in question.  I will come to that when we come to the documents,

 4     and then we will see whether it is necessary to show a large number of

 5     documents.

 6                           Examination by Ms. Nozica:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Korac.

 8        A.   Good afternoon.

 9        Q.   I'll start my examination-in-chief in the following way:  I'm

10     going to present your particulars, and then at the end you will just tell

11     me whether the particulars are correct or not.

12             You graduated from the School of Economics in 1984 in Sarajevo.

13     On the 1st of July, 1991, until 27 June 1992, you worked in the Ministry

14     of the Interior of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo.

15     You were the chief of the -- of a department in the Administration for

16     Financial Affairs.

17             Together with your family, you left Sarajevo on the 27th of June,

18     1992, and you moved to Neum.  From September 1992 to September 1994, you

19     were a member of the HVO Battalion in Neum.

20             You returned to Sarajevo in May 1996, and you have lived and

21     worked in Sarajevo ever since.  Currently, you are an employee of a

22     private company which trades in automobiles.

23             Is all this correct, Mr. Korac?

24        A.   Completely.

25        Q.   Mr. Korac, from the 1st of July, 1991, to the 27th of June, 1992,

Page 38825

 1     you were the chief of a finance department in the Administration for

 2     Finances of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina.  Mr. Korac, who was your immediate superior?

 4        A.   My immediate superior was the assistant head of that same

 5     administration, Mr. Bruno Stojic.

 6        Q.   Which other departments made part of that administration?

 7        A.   In addition to my department for finances, there was also a

 8     department for property, legal and residential affairs, as well as

 9     another department for finances.

10        Q.   What was the job; i.e., what did you do in the department that

11     you headed?

12        A.   I had several desk officers, several warehouse officers, several

13     accountants who were keeping books, and we also engaged in the

14     procurement and distribution of materiel and technical equipment at the

15     level of the Ministry of the Interior for the territory of the entire

16     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17        Q.   Did your department carry out the annual stock-taking of all the

18     equipment of the Ministry of the Interior?

19        A.   Yes, there was stock-taking every year on the 31st of December,

20     and that was one of the main tasks of the administration and the

21     department at the level of the ministry for the entire Republic of Bosnia

22     and Herzegovina.

23        Q.   Mr. Korac, how long did Mr. Bruno Stojic keep coming to work and

24     keep performing his duties as the assistant minister of the Ministry of

25     the Interior in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the course of 1992?

Page 38826

 1        A.   I was aware that Mr. Bruno Stojic's family resided in Neum.  We

 2     all knew that, and we knew that almost every weekend he went to see his

 3     family there and that he returned to work on Mondays.  And as far as I

 4     know, on the first Monday in April 1992, Mr. Bruno Stojic did not come

 5     back to work.  And that weekend, Sarajevo had been blocked for very

 6     well-known reasons, and after that weekend nobody could come back into

 7     Sarajevo or leave Sarajevo through regular routes.  As far as I know, it

 8     was then that Mr. Stojic stopped coming back to Sarajevo.

 9        Q.   Did you or anybody else in the service have telephone contacts

10     with Mr. Stojic after that day?

11        A.   Yes.  For a certain while after the events in question,

12     Mr. Bruno Stojic's secretary told us on several occasions that the boss,

13     as she called him, meaning Mr. Stojic, kept calling, explaining why he

14     could not come to work, although we all knew what the reason was.  And I

15     believe that on two occasions, he wanted to talk to me as well, and I did

16     talk to him.  And I believe that this went on until the moment the post

17     office burnt down in Sarajevo, which meant that communication was

18     interrupted.  That was in May, in the first days of May of that same

19     year.

20        Q.   Mr. Korac, did you have frequent contacts with Mr. Bruno Stojic

21     as part of your work?

22        A.   I can say that that happened on a daily basis, as a result of my

23     work commitments as the chief of department, but this was also true of

24     other chiefs of departments that we mentioned.

25        Q.   Mr. Korac, how will you describe to the Trial Chamber the

Page 38827

 1     attitude of Mr. Stojic towards his position as the assistant minister of

 2     the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 3     How did he take his job?

 4        A.   Precisely so.  While he was affiliated with the ministry, he

 5     behaved as an assistant minister of the Ministry of the Interior of the

 6     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That is -- that was my impression, and

 7     that is my conviction as well.

 8        Q.   Can you explain to the honourable Trial Chamber what you mean

 9     when you say that he behaved as the minister of the interior of the

10     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  What do you mean by that?

11        A.   Looking in hindsight, if you had asked me that at the time, my

12     answer may have been different, because it would not have been coloured

13     by the events that took place subsequently.  At the moment when it became

14     important, what your name was, where you hailed from, what political

15     options were closer to you and which ones were not so close to you, I can

16     say that in the administration, which had several dozens of employees of

17     various ethnic backgrounds, and if we apply all the other criteria that I

18     use to divide people today that were first used at that time, Mr. Stojic

19     did not have any problem with that, the employees did not have any

20     problem with that.

21             In addition to that, the Ministry of the Interior employed people

22     from public security stations, from security services centres.  There

23     were 109 public security stations in the entire territory of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there was never any problems with their ethnic

25     background.  A majority of people that I communicated with had a very

Page 38828

 1     positive view of the administration and its leadership.  In that sense, I

 2     would say that there were no differences based on where people came from,

 3     from which organisational unit, in our job.

 4        Q.   Can you please tell the Chamber specifically if Mr. Bruno Stojic

 5     did his job and met all his obligations in the best interests of the

 6     Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 7        A.   Yes, I think that was the case.

 8        Q.   Mr. Korac, within the MUP itself, the MUP of the Republic of

 9     Bosnia and Herzegovina, which body was it that took decisions?

10        A.   The ministry was headed by the minister, and the body that he

11     works closely with was the minister's collegium, made up of the minister,

12     his deputy, and the assistants of all the basic organisational units, the

13     administrations within the ministry.  Those were the people that he

14     worked closely with, and you could call it the minister's collegium.

15        Q.   We've heard this quite many times in this courtroom, but maybe it

16     would not be amiss to repeat once more.  Who was the actual minister at

17     the time, the Minister of the Interior of the Republic of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19        A.   At the time, it was Mr. Alija Delimustafic.

20        Q.   Alija Delimustafic, Delimustafic; right?

21        A.   Yes, Delimustafic.  Alija Delimustafic.

22        Q.   It's fine now.  Can you tell us the names of other assistants?

23     You said that the minister and the assistants made up the ministry's

24     collegium.  Can you tell us the names of some of the assistants, please?

25        A.   If my memory serves me, there was the Communications

Page 38829

 1     Administration, the assistant was Mr. Akif Sabic; then there was the

 2     Crime Administration, headed by Mr. Momcilo Mandic; the

 3     Police Administration headed by Mr. Avdo Hebib, I believe; the Personnel

 4     Administration headed by Selimovic, Hilmo Selimovic.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much.  I think this is quite sufficient for our

 6     purposes.

 7             Can you now tell the Chamber about the relationship between

 8     Mr. Bruno Stojic and the members of the collegium?  What were their

 9     relations like?

10        A.   I think they worked quite well together.  As far as their

11     professional commitments were concerned, there were no delays or anything

12     like that.  Sometimes discussions were quite lively, which is on occasion

13     necessary to get a job done properly, but there weren't any clashes

14     between the members that one could observe.  I believe I can say that

15     their cooperation was obviously fair.

16             Perhaps I should add this:  This was a period at which certain

17     things began happening, and many people later regretted that those things

18     had ever happened.  Nevertheless, at the time some of the members of this

19     collegium worked together on a private basis and even socialised outside

20     their work.  They socialised quite frequently, as a matter of fact.

21     I think the media followed this as well, the Sarajevo-based newspaper

22     "Us" wrote about this on a weekly basis.

23             Mr. Stojic, Mr. Mandic, Mr. Delimustafic would meet and

24     socialise.  One week, one of them hosted this little get-together, and

25     the next week it would be someone else.  They socialised.  They would

Page 38830

 1     meet in public places, which in some way demonstrated that what we were

 2     watching on the TV news every night was not necessarily all true.  It was

 3     a good thing to read about this in the papers every now and then, knowing

 4     that you were working in an environment in which people were socialising

 5     even on their own free time and of their own free will, and not just

 6     because they had to because of their work.  The message that this was

 7     sending to everyone was that it was all right to live with people who

 8     were in many ways different.  They were on very good terms.  I'm not sure

 9     if they were friends, but they were certainly companions, if I can put it

10     that way.

11        Q.   You say or suggest that some sort of message was sent across by

12     this, by them socialising.  We've talked about this in the courtroom.  We

13     talked about all these divisions along party lines, along ethnic lines.

14     Is this a message that got through?  Did the public understand and take a

15     positive lesson from this, that all these ministers and assistant

16     ministers were socialising also on their own free time and that they

17     weren't just linked to each other professionally but also socialised on a

18     friendly basis, if you like?

19        A.   Yes, I think you could put it that way.  For example, I had a

20     colleague who I was working with.  He was different in one way or another

21     and I was different from him, but still we spent time together, we

22     socialised.  Had our superiors been sending out a different kind of

23     signal, maybe that would have made it impossible for us, at a lower

24     level, to socialise and hang out together.

25        Q.   And now I'm going back to your professional work, to your line of

Page 38831

 1     duty.  How was MTS procured in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 2        A.   That was one of the commitments of the administration headed by

 3     Mr. Bruno Stojic.  The work of my department was part of this overall

 4     effort.  Obviously, initially there would be an order to obtain certain

 5     types of MTS, and this order would be issued by the assistant minister,

 6     Mr. Stojic.  There would be requests and orders previously from the

 7     minister's collegium.  Those orders and requests were in keeping with a

 8     document.  I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly.

 9     Nevertheless, procurement was always based on a programme of purchasing

10     equipment and modernising the equipment of the MUP throughout the

11     Republic of B and H.

12             There would be a report that was drawn up invariably, containing

13     a summary or an overview of the needs of public security stations across

14     the country or security services centres, as well as the MUP itself, the

15     Ministry of the Interior, the MUP being a very demanding service not just

16     in terms of numbers but also in terms of actual equipment.  A document

17     like this would normally be produced on a mid-term basis and would span a

18     four-year period routinely.  Goods and equipment were then obtained based

19     on this.

20             There would be a budget that was allotted to this sort of

21     activity, and this was down to the finance people.  That was no longer my

22     job.  But I was there, I was working there, and I knew something about

23     what was going on also at a government level, and then there would be a

24     budget that was approved.  It had to be ratified by the Parliament, as

25     far as I know.  And then based on this budget, there would be

Page 38832

 1     procurement, renewal, modernisation, and this applied to the Ministry of

 2     the Interior in its entirety.  All sections would benefit from this.

 3        Q.   You've told us a little about the modernisation programme right

 4     now.  I think that was the phrase you used.

 5        A.   "Equipment and modernisation."  I think that's what the programme

 6     was called.

 7        Q.   And the programme applied to which period?  Tell us, please, if

 8     you can remember.

 9        A.   The programme that applied at the time spanned the period between

10     1990 and 1995, as far as I remember.

11        Q.   Mr. Korac, could you please take the smaller binder in front of

12     you.  I would like to go through a number of documents covering some of

13     the subjects that we have been discussing.  The smallest binder that you

14     have in front of you.

15             The first document is 2D00836.  Mr. Korac, what we see there is a

16     letter dated the 16th of July, 1991, signed by Mr. Bruno Stojic,

17     addressed to the Cabinet of the MUP and members of the collegium or the

18     advisory board, a report on the possibility of a more rational use of the

19     building of the Police Social Centre.  That is how the heading reads.

20             Can you, first of all, please, tell us where was this police

21     hall?

22        A.   It was and it still is right in the center of town, in the

23     immediate vicinity of the Ministry of the Interior building.  The

24     ministry was at Borisa Kovacevic Street, I'm not sure what the street's

25     name is today.  Perhaps 100 metres, as the crow flies; no more than that.

Page 38833

 1        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, and I believe you've read this

 2     letter in its entirety while being proofed, was this the usual procedure

 3     for an assistant minister of the interior to communicate with the

 4     minister's cabinet and members of the advisory board?

 5        A.   I think at a stage like this, and given the nature of the

 6     activity in question, this was a perfectly normal procedure for

 7     announcing an initiative.  What I see here is perfectly clear.  There had

 8     been a considerable investment, and the building had been revamped, if

 9     you like, several years before.  It was used by the ministry.  There were

10     a lot of things going on there.  There was a cinema hall.  It had a hall

11     for festivities of all kinds.  It had a gym, all sorts of things, and it

12     was hardly ever used.  Sometimes there would be a ceremony that was held

13     there, an occasion marked, or perhaps consultations took place there.

14             Mr. Stojic is a natural talent.  He was an economist and he was

15     proposing here that instead of all this expenditure, instead of spending

16     all this money, some money might be saved or poured back into the state

17     coffers, and then those funds could be used to modernise the entire

18     operation, the equipment and the building and everything.  Obviously, the

19     money in question is not a lot, but --

20        Q.   2D88 -- 2D00814, please, that's the next -- 841, that's the next

21     document.  This is a proposal for analysis, sent by Bruno Stojic,

22     assistant minister of the interior, on the 10th of December, 1991,

23     addressed to the Republican Institute for Public Planning.  There is an

24     attachment here for drafting an analysis, the development of All People's

25     Defence and Social Self-Protection, 1991, with an assessment of the

Page 38834

 1     possibility of development throughout 1992.  Could you please explain to

 2     the Trial Chamber why there was a need to draw up an analysis such as

 3     this one?  Was the MUP under any obligation to provide an attachment like

 4     this, as done by Mr. Bruno Stojic in the case before us?

 5        A.   This wasn't exactly my line of work, not just when I worked in

 6     the MUP, but even before that time, I wasn't in charge of anything like

 7     this, but I do know that any economic entity, any social entity, any

 8     state entity, any federal entity, definitely had to deal with these

 9     issues, what we called at the time "All People's Defence and Social

10     Self-Protection."  They were also under an obligation to deal with issues

11     that had to do with what was termed "Defence Preparations."  The Ministry

12     of the Interior was one of the two most significant players in these

13     defence preparations, in addition to, of course, the federal army.

14             Therefore, the ministry had every obligation to make plans to

15     monitor developments and to make proposals for analyses like that to be

16     drafted.  I say more general level, the objective being to possibly have

17     to defend the country from any attacks, attacks from abroad, obviously.

18     Everyone had to deal with these issues, defence issues, in one way or

19     another, but if you had an economic entity, or perhaps in the state

20     ministries there was special sections for All People's Defence and Social

21     Self-Protection, therefore it was probably even a special obligation for

22     the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

23     not just to be ready to face eventualities such as this one, but also to

24     work hard to improve its own capacities, in terms of personnel, in terms

25     of equipment, to keep modernising all the time so that it might be ready

Page 38835

 1     to respond to a possible threat or attack from abroad, attack on the

 2     country.

 3        Q.   Can you please now go to page 2.  This is a draft proposal for

 4     the analysis.  Let me just point you to page 1, the second-to-last

 5     passage.  There is mention there of the budget for 1991, and you said

 6     that within the programme for modernisation and equipment, this is

 7     something you've been talking about, and then the budget was approved in

 8     relation to each and every year; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   What about the last paragraph?  There is a proposed programme for

11     the modernisation of the services of the public and social security in

12     relation to 1991 to 1995, and you said it was between 1990 and 1995.  You

13     made a mistake there; it's actually from 1991 to 1995.

14        A.   Well, yes.  It's a matter of parentheses, isn't it?

15        Q.   The document goes on to say that the programme talked about

16     various needs, the need for weapons, for equipment, and then there is a

17     list of various necessities, equipment needed by the Ministry of the

18     Interior to be able to continue its activities?

19        A.   Yes, indeed.

20        Q.   At the end of this paragraph, it says that the programme should

21     be adopted by the Assembly of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

22     that the ministry had already submitted for review this proposal, and

23     that the proposal was being reviewed by the government.  Is that the same

24     procedure that you were telling us about, in terms of procurement,

25     equipment and everything else, and this was used as a basis for all the

Page 38836

 1     procurement that occurred back in 1991 and 1992; is this how it was

 2     adopted?

 3        A.   The Ministry of the Interior based their expenditure on a budget,

 4     and obviously there had to be plans on how this money was to be used.

 5     Needless to say, again, this wasn't exactly part of my work, it wasn't

 6     something that I was dealing with directly, but I know that even

 7     nowadays, whenever there's a government proposal, you have parliaments

 8     and assemblies adopting budgets.  I expect the same procedure applied at

 9     the time.  The BH Assembly would adopt a budget in relation to whichever

10     year was coming next.  For example, in 1991, what was drawn up was a

11     budget proposal for the following year, and then it would be submitted to

12     the finance ministry, to the government, and there would need to be a

13     couple of things that were harmonised.  Not everything was necessarily

14     approved, but what you eventually obtained was a budget that was normally

15     a result of some sort of a compromise between what was needed and what

16     was possible.

17        Q.   Another document about this, 2D00840, another document about the

18     same subject.  Mr. Korac, it is precisely for this reason that I've been

19     showing you these documents, because you were telling us this is exactly

20     the sort of thing that is being done nowadays.  I just want to know if

21     this was the same thing that was done at the time, back then, the period

22     we're talking about, whether the same procedures were -- I've been

23     cautioned to slow down.  I'll repeat this.

24             That is precisely the reason I've been asking you all these

25     questions, because I want to make sure, based on your knowledge, whether

Page 38837

 1     at the time the same procedures were followed and the same regulations

 2     that applied in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  That's why I

 3     would now like you to move on to the following document.  That's the one

 4     that you have in front of you.  Again, this is another document signed

 5     Mr. Bruno Stojic, and the document is dated the 21st of December, 1991.

 6     And again he's addressing the finance ministry, asking for additional

 7     funds to be used for the ministry's work.

 8             In this letter, Mr. Stojic points out that funds were needed,

 9     additional funds.  Now he talks about the various sectors, expenditure,

10     common funds, special-purpose funds, the public security service, that

11     sort of thing.  And then if we go down to the last paragraph, he

12     expresses a hope and desire that the proposal would be adopted, as had

13     been the case hitherto.

14             Mr. Korac, what about this document dispatched by Mr. Stojic; was

15     this document, too, in keeping with all the procedures that applied at

16     the time on procurement and general expenditures of the Ministry of the

17     Interior of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18        A.   I believe that a request of this kind is normal and correct,

19     especially bearing in mind that if the budget was spent, which did not

20     happen in January or February, usually it happens towards the end of the

21     year, and in this case it is in November of that year, and the ministry

22     did not have any more funds left, so it had to turn to the state, and I

23     believe that the most normal and customary way was for them to address

24     the Ministry of Finances in order to see whether there could -- there

25     were any funds to be had in any of the reserves, or maybe this should

Page 38838

 1     have been something else, like the -- reconsidering the budget, but it

 2     was late, November was late to reconsider the budget, so he turned to the

 3     Ministry of Finances and this was a legal way to request additional funds

 4     for regular business.  And here we can see that we're talking about the

 5     material spending, funds for joint spending, funds for the special

 6     purposes of the public security service, funds for special purposes of

 7     the Internal Affairs Training Centre, which was part of the ministry.  So

 8     we're talking about the whole Ministry of the Interior which required

 9     additional funds.

10        Q.   When both you and I receive signals from the courtroom, that

11     means we both have to slow down in order for everything that the two of

12     us say be properly recorded.

13             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] And now I would like to inform the

14     Trial Chamber that I will be asking the witness about three documents

15     that contain invoices for the purchase of a Golf car, and I am referring

16     to the testimony by Witness Josip Manolic on the 4th of July, 2006, and

17     his statement provided on pages 4386 through 4389.  The Prosecutor showed

18     the witness document P134 on that occasion.

19        Q.   Mr. Korac, in the course of 1991-1992, were Golf vehicles

20     purchased for the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21        A.   Yes.  The purchases were made in keeping with the programme of

22     equipping and modernisation that was in place at the time.

23        Q.   According to the best of your recollection, during the period

24     1991 and 1992, while you worked at the MUP, how many Golf vehicles were

25     purchased pursuant to this plan of programme and -- of equipping and

Page 38839

 1     modernisation, as you call it?

 2        A.   I know that there were several batches of supplies up to the end

 3     of 1991, and then up to the end of June 1992, maybe up to 300 vehicles

 4     were purchased for the Ministry of the Interior, in the entire territory

 5     of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which were covered by the programme that we

 6     have already discussed.

 7        Q.   You have just mentioned it in passing, but I would like to seek

 8     some clarification from you.  Does the programme -- did the programme

 9     actually specify who the vehicles were purchased for?

10        A.   Yes, of course.  The programme was a sum of all the needs of all

11     the public security stations, and I believe that there were a total of

12     109 of them in the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  There were

13     also nine centres of public security, and there was also the ministry

14     which comprised the school for the training of the ministry employees.

15     When all the needs were summed up, ones that had been coordinated,

16     because you have to know that a public security station may request ten

17     photocopying machines and the assistant has the right to say, You only

18     need two, and then they compromise on five, this plan of equipping and

19     modernisation is also the basis for the distribution of all the purchased

20     equipment, because the equipment is usually procured based on a document

21     of that kind.

22        Q.   You have used photocopying machines as an example.  Would that

23     apply to Golf vehicles?

24        A.   Of course.  Why not?

25        Q.   Very well.  Tell me, please, how were the vehicles procured?

Page 38840

 1     According to you, there was this programme of modernisation and

 2     equipping, which displayed the needs of all the segments within the

 3     Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  After the programme was

 4     drafted, how were Golf vehicles procured?  How were procurements done, in

 5     general?

 6        A.   Depending on what is being purchased and the -- let me limit

 7     myself to this particular case.  The existence of the programme and the

 8     elements in the programme called "Cars" doesn't mean that the

 9     administration will embark on the procurement.  If a conclusion is

10     reached by the collegium that the time has come for some materiel and

11     equipment to be purchased, then professional services, and in this case

12     this was the Department for Materials Ordered and Finances, and

13     particularly the -- its Detachment for Materials Ordered, they started

14     collecting offers.  Although there were no legal requirements or

15     conditions in place for this to be three bids, in principle we always had

16     to have at least three procurement bids that had to be accompanied by an

17     elabora [phoen] that contained all the financial aspects, and when those

18     arrived they would be handed over to the assistant minister, who would

19     then get together with other colleagues and the minister, they would

20     discuss the bids and they would make their decision based on all the

21     accompanying materials.

22        Q.   Should I understand that, that the final decision was in the

23     hands of the collegium of ministers?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Who was the authorised person to sign payment orders for a

Page 38841

 1     procurement of this kind?

 2        A.   I believe it was only the minister who was allowed to sign such

 3     payment orders, or he could have authorised somebody else.  But I believe

 4     that he was the only authorised person to execute such payment orders.

 5        Q.   We have three documents here that contain certain invoices

 6     relative to the purchase of Golf vehicles.  Could you please look at

 7     document 2D00839.  Could you please tell the honourable Trial Chamber

 8     whether the invoices that you can see in the document, whether they

 9     refer -- and I'm starting with invoice number 9100286 up to

10     number 9100315.  Do all these invoices refer to the purchase of the Golf

11     vehicles that we have discussed?

12        A.   Yes.  Since I have already had an occasion to look at the copies

13     of the invoices, I can say that, yes, the invoices in question refer to

14     the purchase of the vehicles for the Ministry of the Interior in the

15     course of 1991 -- 1991.  Here we can see clearly who was selected as the

16     seller.  This was Adria Auto, based in Dubrovnik.  The buyer was the

17     Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  You can see the date

18     of the invoice.  You can see the basic data of the car, the price, the

19     chassis number.  You can see all that.  And in the heading of almost

20     every document, you can see who the vehicle was intended for, and this

21     was all in keeping with the programme for equipping and modernisation of

22     the Ministry of the Interior.

23        Q.   You're looking at invoice number, and I'm going to give you the

24     last three digits, 286; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 38842

 1        Q.   Can you see what is written in handwriting because the

 2     interpreter could not discern clearly what is written here?

 3        A.   I believe it is for Bihac, for the public security station in

 4     Bihac.  Indeed, it is not easy to read, but since I was very familiar

 5     with the procedure and this particular purchase, I know where it was

 6     intended for.

 7        Q.   Let's look at 287.  That's the next invoice.  Was that another

 8     Golf?

 9        A.   Yes, it was another car of almost the same characteristics.  The

10     only things that differ were the chassis number and the engine number,

11     and I believe that its destination was the Police Administration.  That's

12     what you can see in the heading of the invoice.

13        Q.   Can you please look at the following invoice.  The number is 288.

14        A.   Yes.  Again, the same vehicle.  The date is 16th September.  It

15     says "Golf vehicle."  It gives you the price and everything else.  It

16     says "Garage" here, and I believe that the reference is made to the

17     garage that existed within the building of the Ministry of the Interior.

18     And those vehicles were used by the ministry, for the official purposes

19     of the ministry.

20        Q.   Could you please look at the following invoice, which is 289.

21        A.   Yes.  In the heading, you can't see a destination, but you can

22     see something that looks like the DIN number of the registration plate.

23        Q.   Of what town?

24        A.   Sarajevo.

25        Q.   Very well.  Could you please look at invoice number 290.

Page 38843

 1        A.   Yes.  The same or similar vehicle, same period, the month of

 2     September, so it would be the same batch.  This is the fifth

 3     administration, i.e., administration within the ministry.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. Nozica, would you be so kind as to explain

 5     to the Chamber what the interest and relevance of the next document is,

 6     which looks to us like the previous one, and the next again like the

 7     previous one?  What's the interest in having X number of identical

 8     documents?  I would be really grateful if you could pick out one of those

 9     that have anything special to them.  I think that would be quite enough.

10             Thank you.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, I fully agree with

12     my fellow Judge.  We know that the Ministry of Interior bought Golf cars.

13     We know that they were sent to different police stations, administrations

14     and so on.  All this is explained, so let's not waste any time talking

15     about every invoice a lot and every car that is sent to each and every

16     police station.  Ask a question, you know, to shed some light on this.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18             I believe that it was clear, when I referred to the part of the

19     transcript, i.e., part of the examination of Witness Josip Manolic.

20     Josip Manolic quoted from documents that I mentioned, document 134, P134,

21     part of the statement by Mr. Boban, who says that Mr. Bruno Stojic

22     purchased through the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina a total of 150 Golf for the HZ-HB.  I believe that it

24     is very relevant to see that during that period of time a total of

25     260 Golfs were purchased, as one can see from the documents, and I also

Page 38844

 1     believe that it is very relevant to establish where the Golfs were

 2     dispatched to.

 3             I fully accept your suggestion.  I did not intend to read all

 4     260 invoices, because we have a witness here who looked at all of them,

 5     but I just wanted to present to the Trial Chamber how we can establish

 6     where the Golfs were sent to, and that's why I asked the witness to

 7     explain some of the invoices.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I agree with you, Ms. Nozica.

 9     The simplest thing is to ask the question in the following manner:  Tell

10     him that a witness, Mr. Josip Malovic [as interpreted], said that

11     150 vehicles had been bought and sent to police stations.  "You took part

12     in this, Mr. Witness, so can you confirm it?"  And then the witness can

13     answer, "Yes, and as a matter of fact the invoices that we have just seen

14     together prove this."

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] With your leave, I would like to

16     proceed to see whether 150 Golfs were, indeed, sent to where Mr. Boban

17     said that they were, or maybe the situation was entirely different.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Ms. Nozica.  But

19     whether its 150, 200 or 300, that's pointless.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I appreciate that, and I will go

21     through the documents very quickly.

22        Q.   Witness, have you had an opportunity to look at all the invoices

23     contained in 2D839?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Can you confirm to the Trial Chamber that these are indeed

Page 38845

 1     invoices that were issued on the 16th of March, 1991?

 2        A.   16th of September.

 3        Q.   I apologise.  16th of September.  Can you also confirm that each

 4     of the invoices or at least -- or most of them mentions the destination

 5     of the vehicle?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you please look at the somewhat thicker binder which contains

 8     2D837.  Can you confirm for the sake of the Trial Chamber that these are

 9     invoices for the purchase of Golf vehicles that were also purchased

10     within the framework of the same project that you mentioned?

11        A.   Yes, these are the documents that I previously went through, and

12     they are about the same purchase.  It's a different lot, that's all.

13     These were invoiced on the 31st of December and then distributed based on

14     a predetermined distribution plan, which was also a basis on which these

15     vehicles were purchased.  They were distributed to the Security Services

16     Centres, and this is a note that's handwritten on most of these invoices.

17        Q.   Mr. Korac, can you confirm, for the benefit of the Chamber,

18     9100346 through 9100578?  I'm talking about these invoices.  You have

19     gone through these, each of these, and can you now confirm that that is

20     the purchase that we're talking about when vehicles were purchased?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can you further confirm that while looking at most of these

23     documents, in the heading we see who the cars were eventually dispatched

24     to?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 38846

 1        Q.   Just another document on this same subject.  That's in the

 2     smaller binder, 2D00838.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I hadn't intended to

 4     ask any question because it's a well-known topic, but there's one

 5     question regarding budget techniques, for those who know about finance.

 6     These invoices are dated December 31st.  Was it because the budget that

 7     had been decided for 1991 be completely -- be finished in order to use up

 8     all the funds that had been allotted to these lines, to these; otherwise,

 9     there would have been a problem, probably, to transfer the purchases to

10     the next year?  In a word, aren't these invoices dated December 31st in

11     order to just use all the spending that had been planned in the first

12     place when the budget was drafted earlier?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether

14     that was the intention, but when dealing with budgets, if there are any

15     funds that are unused, the funds do not just go back, they're not

16     returned.  Therefore, it is only logical that the funds would be used in

17     the same year for which they are earmarked.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you.  I asked you to look at 2D00838, please.  Witness,

20     there is a total of ten invoices there.  The date is the

21     10th of March, 1992.  Can you please tell the Chamber about these ten

22     Golf vehicles?  Were they purchased as part of the equipping and

23     modernisation plan?

24        A.   Yes.  This is the third lot or batch, or one of the batches of

25     these vehicles that were delivered in March 1992.  We're talking about

Page 38847

 1     the same funds.  We're talking about the same provider.  This is part of

 2     the same deal.  It is just that the invoices don't make it perfectly

 3     clear who they were sent to or allocated to.

 4        Q.   Finally, in order to see what the source is, 2D843.  That is the

 5     source for all these documents.  Have you got it?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   This is a letter by the director of the Federal Ministry of the

 8     Interior and the Federal Police Administration, Mr. Zlatko Miletic,

 9     sending this to the office of attorney-at-law Senka Nozica.  He specifies

10     here that he had received a request from my office in order to forward

11     these invoices to Senka Nozica, attorney-at-law, representing Mr. Stojic,

12     which he did.  Do you know Mr. Zlatko Miletic, and do you know for a fact

13     that this was his position at the time, as specified here?

14        A.   I don't personally know him, but I know he held the position at

15     the time.  Mr. Miletic is a well-known person in those circles.  I'm a

16     well-informed citizen, like many others, and I know that this indeed was

17     the position he held at the time.

18        Q.   Mr. Korac, having gone through all these invoices, could you

19     perhaps tell the Chamber whether these vehicles were distributed or

20     delivered across Bosnia-Herzegovina to each and every public security

21     station, to Security Services Centres across Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22        A.   Yes, the vehicles that I've looked at, the vehicles that we're

23     talking about, were distributed in keeping with the procurement plan,

24     which was also the distribution plan.  It was for public security

25     stations and security services centres or stations across Bosnia and

Page 38848

 1     Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   Mr. Korac, were you involved in the drafting of the regular

 3     annual list of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Bosnia and

 4     Herzegovina for 1991, the stock-taking?

 5        A.   Yes, that was part of the work of my administration, the

 6     administration headed by Mr. Bruno Stojic.  We had to do an annual

 7     stock-taking, listing all of the items, equipment.  And I'm not just

 8     talking about basic things, such as cars, but also weapons, stationery,

 9     money, requests, and so on and so forth.  In one word, yes.

10        Q.   Tell me about these Golf vehicles in 1991.  Was stock-taking of

11     all these vehicles at the end of 1991, and were these vehicles included

12     in the lists?

13        A.   All of the equipment, including motor vehicles and these Golf

14     vehicles, all items and goods that were eventually distributed and

15     delivered to public security stations, security services centres, by the

16     31st of December found their way into the lists and were later included

17     in the report of the stock-taking commission, and that was the final

18     document that was produced in relation to any big expenditures over the

19     previous year.

20        Q.   Were there any discrepancies once the job was done, in terms of

21     was the documents reflected and what was really the case?

22        A.   You're asking me about these vehicles; right?

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   No, none.  Even as far as the basic equipment were concerned, and

25     then cars were part of this, there were no discrepancies between what the

Page 38849

 1     books reflected and the real situation.  But every time an inventory was

 2     drawn up, every time there was some stock-taking, damaged or out-of-date

 3     items would be listed, and I assume some items were set apart, but not a

 4     great quantity.  For example, there was supposed to be something that was

 5     at the Jajce Public Security Station, and yet this something was stolen.

 6     There was nothing like that that occurred in any of these reports.

 7        Q.   Did you have some information indicating that some irregularities

 8     occurred in the way that cars were distributed?

 9        A.   This certainly wasn't something that I encountered in my work.

10     It wasn't my duty to monitor these irregularities, but I never heard

11     anything like that.  I never witnessed anything like that.  I heard no

12     rumours at all to that effect.  I received no information indicating that

13     anything had been embezzled or that any funds were mis-administrated by

14     the Ministry of the Interior, nothing at least within the remit of the

15     Materials and Finances Administration.

16        Q.   Did you ever hear that Bruno Stojic, having left his position as

17     assistant minister of the interior of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

18     in a formal or an informal way, was accused of any irregularities

19     committed during his term of office?

20        A.   Once Bruno Stojic had stopped travelling to Sarajevo in early

21     April 1991, I would be physically present, I would be at the Ministry of

22     the Interior in Sarajevo every day, even on Sundays, until the day I left

23     Sarajevo with my family, which was in late June, which was a total of

24     three months.  I never came across any instance of anyone at all

25     launching an investigation into Mr. Bruno Stojic's work or, indeed,

Page 38850

 1     questioning its regularity.

 2        Q.   Our last document is 2D0842.  This is a letter from the Ministry

 3     of the Interior, the Sarajevo-based ministry.  The date is the

 4     17th of September, 1992.  If we look at this letter, at the beginning it

 5     says that the government ordered the Ministry of the Interior to look

 6     into issues that have to do with the criminal responsibility of

 7     Branko Kvesic, Momcilo Mandic and Bruno Stojic, if any, and then the

 8     letter goes on to state what exactly the MUP had found.  Without

 9     speculating, can you tell us this:  Why the three names?  Why do you

10     think these three names are there?

11        A.   Each of these persons held a position of responsibility and

12     authority.  Each, at least the way I see it, could have been or indeed

13     was in a position to handle public resources or perhaps resources

14     belonging to the Ministry of the Interior, and that was a considerable

15     amount.  Each or any of these persons could potentially have found

16     themselves in a situation where they could embezzle or misuse such funds

17     as were available.  That is why, I think, the government wanted them to

18     look into these three persons.  This was probably favoured by the fact

19     that none of these three persons were in Sarajevo at the time.  They had

20     long stopped coming to work.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, could there please be a

22     pause between questions and answers.  Thank you very much.

23             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Finally, the last paragraph of this document, document number 3,

25     reads:

Page 38851

 1             "At the Ministry of the Interior, at this time we do not have any

 2     specific information as to irregularities committed by Bruno Stojic, the

 3     former assistant minister of the interior.  Nevertheless, a revision is

 4     underway of certain segments involving material and financial

 5     transactions within the administration headed at the time by

 6     Bruno Stojic.  A special report will be drawn up on this matter."

 7             Mr. Korac, do you know whether any steps were taken following

 8     this letter, any measures taken against Bruno Stojic?  Were any

 9     irregularities or anything illegal at all found in his work as the

10     assistant minister of the interior of the Republic of Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina?

12        A.   I'm looking at the date this document bears, and I was no longer

13     at the ministry myself.  I did go back to Sarajevo eventually in 1996.

14     Ever since my return, and I have been socialising with people from this

15     professional environment, I have been spending time with journalists as

16     well, and they have spent an enormous amount of effort looking into cases

17     such as this one, I never, ever heard anything at all about any

18     investigations into possible irregularities that occurred in Sarajevo,

19     and Bruno Stojic's name was never associated with any of these, not

20     during his time with the Ministry of the Interior.  There was never

21     anything like that, not as far as I know.  To the best of my knowledge,

22     no one ever brought up his name associated to anything like that.  No

23     irregularities were ever found, nothing to do with Mr. Bruno Stojic's

24     work during his time with the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 38852

 1             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Korac.

 2             This concludes my examination-in-chief, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             D3, please, Mr. Kovacic.

 5             MR. KOVACIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We don't have any

 6     question.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] D4.

 8             MR. STEWART:  No, we have no questions either, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] D5.

10             MR. PLAVEC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] D6.

12             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] D1.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Good afternoon,

15     Your Honours.  Good afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom.

16     We have no questions, but we do wish to thank the gentleman for coming

17     here to give his evidence.  Thank you very much, sir, and safe travels.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             Let me ask the Prosecution, will there be a cross-examination?

20             MR. LAWS:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to

21     Your Honours.  And good afternoon to everyone in and around the

22     courtroom.

23             Mr. President, yes, there will be some questions.  We appreciate

24     that this not a central issue, but there will be some cross-examination,

25     yes.

Page 38853

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's break for

 2     20 minutes.  Afterwards, the Prosecution will have the floor, and if need

 3     be, Ms. Nozica will have time for redirect.  Then we'll have a second

 4     break, and we will resume ex parte with Mr. Coric.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Laws, you have the floor.

 8             MR. LAWS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Laws:

10        Q.   Mr. Korac, before today did you know that Mate Boban had praised

11     Bruno Stojic for obtaining over 150 Golfs and weapons for Herceg-Bosna?

12        A.   I was informed about that claim regarding the vehicles during my

13     proofing sessions.

14        Q.   Very well.  And you heard Ms. Nozica refer to that conversation

15     in the course of this afternoon's testimony, I think.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can I get with you, please, two things clear.  The

18     first thing I want to get clear is the date of that conversation, and the

19     second, just what is said.  And to do that, you'll find in front of you a

20     very small bundle of documents.  The first of those is P00134.  And this,

21     we're going to see, is the source of the conversation to which you and I

22     have just referred.  All right?

23             The first page is simply there to tell us who was present; it's

24     Mr. Tudjman, and, at the foot of the page, Mr. Boban.  And the date is

25     the 10th of March, 1992.  All right, can you see that?  Now, that's at

Page 38854

 1     the time when Mr. Stojic --

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   -- is still working at the MUP, is it not?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And if you would turn on with me, please, we have the next page,

 6     page 103, is simply there to show us that it's Mate Boban who is

 7     speaking.  And over the page, page 104, we have Mr. Boban referring to

 8     appointments and talking about appointments that have been made for the

 9     lottery and other institutions.  All right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   If you turn the page again with me, you'll find that we have a

12     paragraph which, in the English, starts:  "Luckily, we had a man for

13     financial affairs in the Ministry of the Interior."  Can you see that

14     paragraph?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And it reads:

17             "Luckily, we had a man for financial affairs in the Ministry of

18     the Interior, Bruno Stojic, a devoted man, whom they wanted to dismiss in

19     writing because of this, and this man has given us so far, in our

20     territory of Herceg-Bosna, over 150 new Golf cars, not to mention the

21     weapons, but I can say it because this is the party."

22             All right.  And that's the conversation that you have been

23     referred to both in your proofing session and today.

24             Now, in March, as you've just said, Bruno Stojic is still working

25     at the MUP; yes?

Page 38855

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you can produce invoices which show where the cars were

 3     purchased from?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And those invoices show that the cars came from a motor car

 6     dealership in Dubrovnik?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And they relate to the MUP spending well over 80 million dinars

 9     at a time when money was very tight within the MUP, do they not?

10        A.   I don't know.  I can't comment.  I don't know whether the money

11     situation was tight or not.  It was what it was.

12        Q.   Well, forgive me, Mr. Korac, but you've been asked to produce a

13     document that shows Mr. Stojic trying to generate additional funds by

14     renting out a police social club, and it perhaps is a fair observation to

15     make that it's going to take quite a lot of rentals on a club of that

16     kind to buy 270 Golfs.  So for me to say to you that money is tight and

17     this is 80 million dinars is a fair observation, isn't it?

18        A.   You will remember that I said that the funds that could be

19     obtained in rentals were insignificant in comparison with the

20     expenditures on the part of the ministry, and of course you could not

21     purchase 200 and I don't know how many vehicles.  But whether the

22     financial situation was in line with the overall situation in society,

23     I can agree that the extraordinary circumstances in the state implied

24     that there was also an extraordinary financial situation in the ministry.

25        Q.   All right.  Well, we're not going to waste too much time on that.

Page 38856

 1             That's where they came from, but as to where they were actually

 2     going, Mr. Kovac, are you saying that the best record we have is the

 3     handwritten annotations on the top of some of these pieces of paper; is

 4     that your understanding, that that's the best record of where the

 5     vehicles were going to go?

 6        A.   Of course not.  The destination of anything, and especially

 7     something that was valuable, such as any car was, had an accompanying

 8     form.  Every annotation of a vehicle was accompanied by the record of the

 9     hand-over of such a vehicle which was part of the accountancy record.

10     The accountant in the department prepared all the necessary documents,

11     which means that anything that was purchased and paid and became the

12     ownership of the Ministry of the Interior in this case meant that the

13     thing was indeed procured and that it was distributed pursuant to a

14     regular legal procedure.  I can claim that because I was a participant in

15     the procedure, I can testify to that, and I believe that the documents in

16     question can still be found in the files of the Ministry of the Interior,

17     documenting each and every piece of goods purchased.

18        Q.   Well, we would expend there to be a very substantial document

19     trail in relation to the movement of these vehicles, wouldn't we?  We're

20     agreeing about that?

21        A.   Of course there is.

22        Q.   Well, the reason that I ask is this:  Part of the purpose of you

23     being called to give evidence today, as we understand it, is to tell us

24     where these vehicles went, and that's why I've asked you whether the best

25     record available is the handwritten entry on the top of some of these

Page 38857

 1     pages, and it's by no means all.  There are dozens of these pages that

 2     are blank, aren't there?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So your evidence is that there are proper records, but you

 5     haven't got them with you and they're not in the binder that you've been

 6     asked to look at; is that the position?

 7        A.   The crown of every financial transaction is the accounting record

 8     of a business event.  One such event is the purchase and distribution of

 9     a resource, and at the end of the year there is the legally-prescribed

10     stock-taking of all the resources that had been purchased prior to the

11     stock-taking exercise and that should be in the ministry.  If something

12     is not in the ministry and there is a record of its purchase, or if there

13     was mismanagement and if the thing went missing, then this is easily

14     established by the stock-taking exercise.  Since we have established

15     prior to this that on the 31st of December, 1991, there were no

16     discrepancies, and I stayed with the ministry until June of the following

17     year, and in the report produced by the government as the owner of all

18     the resources, including the Golfs, the government requested from the

19     Ministry of the Interior to account for the money that was supposed to be

20     spent for the vehicles, and as a result of that there was no inquiring

21     into anything that may have been illegal, based on which I can

22     conclude -- not just me but everybody else can conclude that the funds

23     had not been mis-appropriated.  Every vehicle has a license.  You don't

24     have to have a take-over record, because it's a well-known fact that the

25     ownership is well known, and it is also well known who is supposed to be

Page 38858

 1     looking after every vehicle.

 2        Q.   Forgive me, sir.  That was, if you don't mind me saying, a

 3     lengthy answer to what was meant to be a reasonably straightforward

 4     question.  There are proper records of these transactions and where the

 5     vehicles went to, but you don't have them with you and they're not in the

 6     binder that you've been asked to look at; is that the position?  I think

 7     you can answer that question simply "yes" or "no," can you not?

 8        A.   Yes.  The answer is yes, it's not in the binder, no.

 9        Q.   Thank you very much.  Lastly, you've told us a little bit about

10     when Mr. Stojic left Sarajevo.  We know that the last order for these

11     cars is dated the 10th of March of 1992.  The biggest of the orders is

12     dated the 31st of December of 1991, but the last order whilst he would

13     have been in Sarajevo is the 10th of March; yeah?  And you've told us

14     that he was in the habit of going to visit his family in Neum over the

15     weekend and was not able to get back into Sarajevo because of the

16     blockade which occurred at the beginning of April of 1992; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Would you just turn over, in the small bundle of documents that

19     you have there, to the document that is labelled P00163.  This is a

20     document that's dated the 16th of April of 1992, and it appoints a number

21     of people to the Command of the Grude Forward Command Post of the

22     Southern Front, and it's over the name of General Bobetko.  Can you see

23     that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   At number 7, one of the names is that of your former boss,

Page 38859

 1     Bruno Stojic.  Can you see that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You told us, towards the beginning of your evidence, that

 4     Mr. Stojic, in the period at the beginning of April, was making telephone

 5     calls to the MUP, saying that he was unable to return to work because of

 6     the blockade, although, as you said, I think, you already knew that; is

 7     that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did he mention any other engagements that he might have had in

10     Grude at the time?

11        A.   No.

12             MR. LAWS:  Thank you.  I have no other questions.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

14             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15             I would like to clarify two issues with the witness.

16                           Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Korac, you had an occasion to see the

18     documents that the federal ministry of the interior in Sarajevo submitted

19     to Mr. Bruno Stojic's Defence regarding the Golf vehicles; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you see, among the documents, that only these invoices were

23     submitted; no other documents accompanying the hand-over of the vehicles

24     was submitted to us?

25        A.   I saw a list of documents that are listed as having been found in

Page 38860

 1     the offices denoted by numbers and in the cupboards in the corridors,

 2     also denoted by numbers.  Among the lists, there are the hand-over

 3     records for the vehicles and so on and so forth, which are not part of my

 4     binders.  In other words, the gentleman who submitted the documents also

 5     mentioned that those were found in the cupboards.

 6        Q.   But the documents were not delivered to us?

 7        A.   They're not here.

 8        Q.   And now I would kindly ask you to tell me this:  When it comes to

 9     the destination of the --

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Ms. Nozica.

11             Witness, how can you affirm that something has not been delivered

12     to Ms. Nozica and the Defence of Mr. Stojic, on what basis?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of the record of the

14     contents of the documents contained in a binder.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And at which binder would that be, please?  Can

16     you be more precise?  Are you talking about the binder you have in front

17     of you?

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may be of

19     assistance, I can refer you to a document that the witness is referring

20     to.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  The witness should really --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I appreciate your wish to assist, but I think if

24     I were a party, I would perhaps object, that counsel should not testify.

25             Witness, the binder you were talking about, is it the one that we

Page 38861

 1     all have seen here or were you talking about another binder?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I obviously refer to the list of

 3     invoices.  I thought that that would be it.  However, this is a list of

 4     invoices as part of the documents located in office number 24, and the

 5     document number is 2D843.

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  That is enough, thank you.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  This is

 8     as much as I wanted to say as well.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  No problem.

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Witness, you said that you were involved in the annual

12     stock-taking in 1991?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   After the stock-taking, did you establish or were you in a

15     position to establish the situation of every segment of the MUP of Bosnia

16     and Herzegovina?  Were you able to establish where each resource was,

17     including the Golf vehicles?

18        A.   Of course.  The resources, such as vehicles, bear the chassis

19     numbers, and that's how they are recorded in the stock-taking list.

20     Every organisational unit involved in the stock-taking, and this refers

21     to every public security station --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness should slow down.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When they are involved in

24     stock-taking, they have to identify every vehicle by the chassis number.

25     And only one such vehicle can exist in the entire world, and if it --

Page 38862

 1     there's no discrepancy between the books and the actual situation, that

 2     means that the vehicle is still where it is supposed to be and where it

 3     is supposed to be used.

 4        Q.   This is a very professional explanation.  I would kindly ask you

 5     to tell us very concretely.  Can you answer my question?  Does this mean

 6     that every such vehicle was delivered to the public security station to

 7     which it was supposed to be delivered according to the programme, or to

 8     the police station or the security services centre which is mentioned in

 9     the invoice as the place of where that vehicle had to be delivered?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   My learned friend asked you how much money was spent to purchase

12     the vehicles.  I will ask again, although I thought it was clear.  The

13     funds in question that the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and

14     Herzegovina spent in 1991 had been approved in the budget that was

15     approved by the Government and the Assembly of the Republic of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina?

17        A.   Of course.  If that had not been the case, then there would not

18     have been any funds.

19        Q.   And, finally, my learned friend also asked you whether after

20     April 1992, you knew that Mr. Stojic had taken over some other tasks and

21     jobs.  My question is this:  Did you meet Mr. Bruno Stojic after your

22     departure -- apologies.  After your return to Neum towards the end of

23     June, did you have occasion to talk to Mr. Bruno Stojic about his

24     professional engagement?

25        A.   Yes.  A few days after my return, i.e., after my arrival in Neum,

Page 38863

 1     together with my family, which included also my sister-in-law and their

 2     parents, who arrived in Neum together with me, and that was on the

 3     27th and 28th of June, already on the 2nd or 3rd of July, which means

 4     maybe a week later, Mr. Bruno Stojic visited me in my parents' house.

 5     And having exchanged a few sentences, we started talking about some

 6     unfinished business that he started in Sarajevo, which had still been --

 7     had not been completed until that very moment, due to the war, and now I

 8     understood from that conversation that Mr. Bruno Stojic encouraged me, in

 9     a way.  I was seized with the feeling that I had abandoned Sarajevo.  He

10     tried to eliminate that feeling.  He told me very clearly that we would

11     soon go back, as soon as the hardships were over.  And the hardships were

12     not done to either me or him, so he told me that we would soon go back to

13     Sarajevo and continue working.

14             I felt guilty for having left Sarajevo, and I was a pessimist

15     because I thought that we would be able to go to Sarajevo only in

16     September.  My wife was more optimistic.  She thought that we would go

17     back in July.  And we were only able to return in 1996.

18        Q.   If I understood you properly, in the conversation that you had

19     with Mr. Stojic at the beginning of July 1992, you understood Mr. Stojic

20     as telling you that you would be able to return to your previous jobs

21     very quickly?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   What jobs are you talking about?

24        A.   In my case, it was the chief of the Department for Materials and

25     Finances, in the Administration for Materials and Finances, and I believe

Page 38864

 1     that when he spoke about himself, that he meant that he would go back to

 2     his position as the assistant minister for the Administration of

 3     Materials and Finances of the Ministry of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  This brings my

 5     re-examination to an end.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, on behalf of the

 7     Trial Chamber, I would like to thank you for having come here to testify

 8     for Mr. Stojic and to contribute to justice.  I wish you the best for

 9     your return home, and I will ask our usher to please escort you out of

10     this courtroom.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14             Before we have our last break, because afterwards we will have an

15     ex parte hearing with one of the accused and with the Prosecution, I

16     would like to tell me Ms. Nozica that we will meet again on Monday,

17     April 20th, with Ivan Bagaric; is that it?

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  According to the

19     plan, that's how it should be.  This is -- this is what was planned.  I

20     believe that it will be so, as far as Mr. Stojic's Defence is concerned.

21     If there are any changes, we will inform you in due course.

22             Thank you very much.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  If there are no

24     comments from any party, we will adjourn.  We need 30 minutes for the

25     break in order to change our tapes, so we'll break for -- just have a

Page 38865

 1     break, and we'll resume with an ex parte hearing with only one of the

 2     accused and the Prosecution.

 3             I wish everyone the best for the days of rest that we have ahead

 4     of us.  I think we need this rest, because we still have a lot of work to

 5     do.  I think today the Trial Chamber has filed three or four decisions.

 6     It's working at a very, very fast pace, and we need a rest every once in

 7     a while in order to be able to take all these decisions in a

 8     fully-informed fashion.

 9             Now we'll break for 30 minutes.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.34 p.m.,

11                           to be followed by an Ex Parte Hearing.  The

12                           hearing will reconvene on Monday, the 20th day of

13                           April, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.