090922IT

Page 45083

1 to you to reformulate it.

2 If at any point in time you feel ill at ease or unwell - you

3 never know because a hearing is always stressful and can sometimes be

4 very uncomfortable - so just raise your hand so we can just break for a

5 while.

6 I don't think that this is much of a surprise for you. I'm sure

7 that Mr. Praljak's counsels have told you all about this hearing, and

8 since you -- I also want to tell you that since you're talking the same

9 language as Mr. Praljak's counsel, wait for them to be finished with

10 their question before you answer, to make sure that the both of you don't

11 overlap.

12 Thank you.

13 You have the floor, Ms. Pinter.

14 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Good afternoon to you all and everybody else in the courtroom.

16 Examination by Ms. Pinter:

17 Q. [Interpretation] And good afternoon, Mr. Arbutina. I'm over

18 here. You can look at me. I'm over here. You can turn towards me.

19 Well, you can look where you like, but just I want you to know that I'm

20 asking you the questions from here.

21 I can see that the Prosecutor glanced at the papers that you have

22 in front of you. What is it that you have there?

23 A. Well, I have the statements that I gave earlier on in Croatia, in

24 Sunja, and I have that before me now.

25 Q. You said that you gave a statement. Did you give that statement

Page 45084

1 of your own free will and to the best of your recollections and

2 knowledge, and did you say what you said truthfully?

3 A. Yes, I did make a truthful statement of my own free will, without

4 anybody having to persuade me to do so, and I am happy to be a witness

5 for the general.

6 Q. Thank you. You said you were born in France, but where do you

7 live?

8 A. I live in Sunja, Croatia.

9 Q. Well, that is additional information because we don't have your

10 date of birth or address in the statement, so that's why I asked you

11 that. And since when have you lived in Sunja?

12 A. Since 1936, when we settled there, my parents and I, and that was

13 the Yugoslavia of the day.

14 Q. Can you describe to the Court what the situation was like in

15 Sunja up until the beginning of the war in the Republic of Croatia, or,

16 rather, until the beginning of the war in Sunja and when that war

17 actually broke out?

18 A. The population of Sunja was mixed. There were more Croats than

19 other -- than the Serbs. And in Sunja, itself, the war began on the 27th

20 of July, 1991, in the morning, between 7.00 and 8.00, with a mortar

21 attack. This was a great shock to us. It came as a big surprise,

22 because on the 26th, for example, the 26th of July, that is, I had a

23 friend - he was a Serb - and the day before the attack I was with them --

24 with him, but on the day of the attack, they were no longer in Sunja.

25 Q. Did they inform you about that; that is to say, did they tell you

Page 45085

1 there would be an attack? Did they know there would be an attack?

2 A. They didn't inform me about anything, and there were even cases

3 where there were very close relations of kinship and kumship, and they

4 didn't inform me about anything, they just disappeared. So there were

5 cases like that just a few days before the attack and, actually, on the

6 26th, or between the 26th and 27th.

7 Q. In your statement, on page 12 of the Croatian text, you say that

8 they left across the railway line. What does that mean; that the local

9 Serbs went across the railway line or what?

10 A. Well, that's what we called the border. In fact, the railway

11 line was the border.

12 Q. The border of what?

13 A. The border between us and the paramilitary forces there, Martic's

14 men, the Chetniks, and the inhabitants who were in Serb villages across

15 the railway line, beyond the railway line.

16 Q. And that is, otherwise, the territory of the Republic of Croatia;

17 right? It's not the border with Bosnia-Herzegovina? It was the

18 separation line between two sides, that kind of border; right?

19 A. No -- well, yes, it's an area of Croatia. It was our local

20 border, so to speak, and we knew that across the way, across the railway

21 line, you couldn't go any further, you couldn't go to that side, because

22 when the actual attack began in the morning, we organised ourselves

23 straight away, and during the day and during the night the civilian

24 population was evacuated, both Croats and the Serbs who had stayed on, or

25 they were near the railway station and were, therefore, under threat.

Page 45086

1 They were under threat from the attacks that they started to launch

2 against us, so those people were evacuated.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, tell us, how was the line organised? What did

4 it look like?

5 A. I think I'll be able to describe this to the Trial Chamber. The

6 line, the boundary, was the railway line, and from the railway line to

7 Sisak and the road running to Sisak --

8 Q. I apologise, but the question was whether the line was well

9 organised, well set up, well fortified, or were there any problems? I'm

10 not asking you where it was, but what it was like there on the first day,

11 the second day, at the beginning of all this.

12 A. Well, I don't know how to describe it. At the beginning, just to

13 be on the safe side, we were sort of on a peninsula. The River Sava was

14 an exit for us if the place were to fall, but we couldn't go to the left

15 or the right because the line was from the Sava River towards the

16 station, and part of that station, and then down Vladimir Masal Street,

17 the villages of Krimadze [phoen], Metbogovac [phoen], and across the

18 fields and meadows.

19 Q. Were there any bunkers, were there any trenches, any obstacles?

20 Were the soldiers well protected, any barriers put up, that kind of

21 thing?

22 A. At the beginning, we didn't have anything because we weren't

23 expecting anything like that. The only thing -- the only barriers we had

24 was up at the station, where there was the station depot warehouse, and

25 at first, up at the front-line, as we referred to it, the railway line,

Page 45087

1 the front-line, there was the police. Well, we called it the militia

2 first, but then it was called the police. And there was a few volunteers

3 who were organised at that first stage, during those first days, until

4 the 2nd Guards Company arrived, and the reserve police force, I think,

5 arrived on the third day from Zagreb.

6 Q. Very well. Now, was that the situation at the front-line

7 throughout or were there any changes?

8 A. In September -- well, the first commander was Zarko Pesa, and so

9 in September General Praljak arrived. And when he took over the command

10 in Sunja, the situation was quite different. But, nevertheless, it was a

11 difficult situation, difficult to deal with all those volunteers. They

12 didn't actually understand what was going on. They didn't realise that

13 it was a war. And when General Praljak arrived, then they began to

14 organise the front-lines better, their bunkers were built, trenches,

15 barriers, and all the rest of it, and the discipline improved at that

16 time, too. Everything became better organised.

17 How can I explain this? Well, us locals, it was difficult when a

18 local person was a commander and so on, and I was an officer in the

19 previous army. I had a rank, I was lieutenant, and I -- when I told the

20 young guys that we had to build bunkers and so on, they wouldn't really

21 listen. It was all sporadic. But when General Praljak arrived, then

22 discipline was raised to a much higher level and there was a certain

23 measure of respect, because he was somebody from other parts, he wasn't a

24 local, because if locals tend to issue orders to locals, that's a

25 different matter, but everybody felt they knew how to defend the area

Page 45088

1 themselves. But when Praljak came in, that was quite different.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're telling us that

3 General Praljak arrived -- you were born in 1931, so in 1992 you were

4 over 60. When you saw General Praljak coming, what did you think at the

5 time? Did you think -- was he being sent by Zagreb or is he just coming

6 just like Zorro, you know, coming to the rescue?

7 A. I don't know how to answer your question. He came as a

8 volunteer, of his own will. He was brought by Zarko Pesa, who was our

9 previous commander. He came of his own will. He came to Sunja to help

10 us, to assist us in defending us from our enemy that was across the

11 railway line.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You are telling us

13 that Zarko Pesa asked him to come, and he came as a volunteer. So could

14 you tell us why it is that someone who came from the outside is suddenly

15 commanding the troops, whereas on the field there are people like you?

16 You had been a lieutenant in the JNA, so why is it that it was a person

17 coming from the outside that ended up commanding the troops?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this did not come

19 from the outside, that this came from the Main Staff of the Republic of

20 Croatia for the defence of Croatia, but he came as a volunteer. He came

21 to help us, and he made sure that we were more active in everything. I

22 don't know how to answer. And as I told you, it was easier for somebody

23 who came from the outside than from a local midst, because that person

24 commands more respect, because I, as a local, if I wanted to tell you

25 something or explain something to you because I had some military

Page 45089

1 knowledge and experience, I could go on talking and asking people to do

2 this or that or the other, but then the response would always be, Don't

3 you tell us what we should do. We know very well how we should do it.

4 I don't know if there is anything else I can tell you in answer

5 to your question. There were people who made bunkers on their sheds near

6 their homes or behind the sheds. Of course, people had cattle and manure

7 was behind the shed, and behind that was a cornfield, and of course that

8 he could see, if somebody was walking through the cornfield, he was

9 visible at a 30-metre distance. He could not come closer -- any closer

10 to the shed because there was a clear field of vision.

11 I would explain to them that the enemy could crawl through the

12 cornfields and throw a hand-grenade on them, or any such thing.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 Ms. Pinter.

15 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Arbutina, in the month of July 1991, did you know anything

17 about the organisation of the Croatian Army? Did you know what was in

18 place at the time? Was there any organisation in place, were there any

19 brigades in place, or was this developed gradually after that? I'm

20 talking about the year 1991.

21 A. In Croatia, there were things, and I'm talking about my area. At

22 that time, we started organising ourselves. First of all, we had

23 volunteers, and then, on the 1st of September, I believe, there were

24 first mobilisation papers distributed. And before the 20th of July, we

25 were all volunteers, as part of a unit that was organised together with

Page 45090

1 people from Sisak. We were a company in Sunja, and that company grew

2 with time. More people joined, and that's how we became a brigade, and

3 then we became a home guard regiment. And there were also active

4 brigades, but our brigade was a reserve brigade.

5 In Sunja, we were assisted by a guards brigade and some other

6 units from other brigades, from the 102nd and 101st Brigades, and all

7 those things changed before 1995.

8 Q. Very well. I'm just waiting for the record to be finished.

9 Mr. Arbutina, when we were talking about the arrival of

10 General Praljak, when did that happen, when did he arrive in Sunja? When

11 did he first arrive in Sunja?

12 A. In the month of September 1991.

13 Q. Thank you. Did you have any contacts with the general while he

14 was in Sunja?

15 A. Yes, I did. At the very beginning, I was appointed by the

16 Crisis Staff as the commander of the logistics there.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber about the

18 attitude of General Praljak towards the civilians? Do you know anything

19 about that? How did he treat the civilians who remained living in Sunja?

20 A. I can say that General Praljak did not make any difference

21 between the civilians and the troops. He looked after everybody equally.

22 I was appointed the assistant commander for logistics, and, as such, I

23 cooperated very strictly with the general, and we discussed everything

24 that concerned my position as a logistics man.

25 Every evening, we had a short briefing. Every evening, I was

Page 45091

1 supposed to go to him, because by then we received all the food from

2 Sisak, and that's why I had to go to Sisak every day, to fetch the food.

3 And after that, I always had to go and seek the general's signature. And

4 then once I asked him, General, sir, I don't think that I should come to

5 you every evening just for the signature. You know that I have to go,

6 but you don't have to know that I am going to fetch 300 kilos of potato

7 or 100 kilo of onion. And he said, Well, I don't see a problem. This

8 will be one less worry for me if you don't come for my signature.

9 And from then on, things changed. However, our co-operation was

10 very good, and whatever I needed, whatever assistance I may have needed,

11 if there was a problem, whenever I addressed the general, there was

12 always good co-operation.

13 Q. Were people hungry in Sunja? Was there enough food?

14 A. There was enough food because we looked after that. The

15 general's order personally to me was that there shouldn't be any

16 shortages, not only for the troops but also for the civilians. There

17 were a lot of Croatian civilians as well as Serbs who remained living in

18 the area. Later on, they joined the Croatian Army. And we also had a

19 few Muslims who lived in Sunja. But he would often tell me, Please make

20 sure that everybody has enough to eat, all the civilians. And we even

21 have some elderly Serbs that we took care of, and they all regularly

22 received food and provisions, just like the troops.

23 There were no shops where one could get food. The situation was

24 not normal. There were shops, but they were closed down. This is what

25 I'm saying.

Page 45092

1 Q. The Serbian civilians, did they remain living in Sunja of their

2 own will? Were they incarcerated? Did they lead a normal life? What

3 can you tell us about them?

4 A. They led a normal life. There were no differences between them

5 and the rest of the population, the Croatian population. For example, we

6 treated everybody equally. Maybe there were -- there was some sporadic

7 taunting, but that was really sporadic and insignificant; that they

8 stayed of their own will. And for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, I

9 have to say that the neighbourhood from the railway station to the center

10 of Sunja, half of that part may be 500 or 600 metres away from the

11 railway station, we removed from that area both Croats and Serbs, and

12 there were Serbs who remained in Sunja as well as the others who were

13 further away from that area, and the rest left across the River Sava and

14 joined their relatives in Sisak or Zagreb.

15 Q. Did you chase them away or did they leave of their own will,

16 those that left? And I mean the Serbs that you just mentioned.

17 A. I know what you're saying. Nobody chased them away. Those who

18 wanted to leave left. Because some order had been introduced into the

19 command of the company in our firefighters hall, that's where the command

20 was, and then when Pesa was there, they had the Main Staff, and when

21 Mr. Praljak came. However, initially before they came, those who wanted

22 to leave, they would be given passes for the barge to get across the

23 river to the other parts of Croatia where they had relatives. There was

24 no expulsion or anything.

25 Q. I have two more questions for you, sir. The first question is:

Page 45093

1 What was the treatment of soldiers, and do you know anything about the

2 discipline among the troops?

3 A. I can only say that discipline improved significantly after

4 General Praljak arrived. He told them, We are a military and we are

5 defending our homeland, and we have to abide by military rules, and we

6 have to discharge our military duties in a proper way.

7 It was very difficult to introduce order and discipline.

8 However, the general was not very rigid in his behaviour, but he asked

9 for discipline and order. And what I found very impressive was, for

10 example, our morning briefings. General Praljak introduced a

11 flag-raising ceremony every morning, and every morning the anthem was

12 played by a soldier, and then we had very short briefings. Mr. Praljak

13 would then say, The 1st Company, any problems, the 2nd, the 3rd, the 4th,

14 Logistics? And those briefings were very short, not more than half an

15 hour, and then he would say to us, Let's go on, lads, let's continue

16 working and making sure we know what we are doing.

17 Q. When did General Praljak leave Sunja? Do you know the date or

18 just an approximate date?

19 A. I don't know the exact date, but I believe that it was in

20 [indiscernible] 1992, in April 1992.

21 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as the Defence

22 is concerned, we have no more questions. I would just like

23 Mr. Arbutina's statement under 3D03699 to be tended into evidence.

24 I don't know if General Praljak believes that there is something

25 to be added to my examination of this witness.

Page 45094

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.

2 Witness, I have a whole series of follow-up questions to put to

3 you. I'd like to get back to the question of the civilians.

4 Sunja was part of a municipality, and if I've understood you

5 correctly, this small settlement had, by and large, 1.300 inhabitants

6 when the census was conducted in 2001. So in 1991/1992, one could

7 reasonably presume that there were at least a thousand inhabitants. The

8 2001 census indicates that 17 per cent of these people were Serbs. Ten

9 years prior to that, if we calculate on the basis of a thousand

10 inhabitants, there were approximately 100 Serbs, 40 to 45 families, all

11 in all, according to my calculations.

12 You told us that there was a street on the other side of this

13 station, and you said that the Croats and the Serbs left from that

14 particular point. You decided that, but you remained very discreet as

15 far as the fate of the Serbs was concerned. Why did you ask the Serbs

16 living on that street to leave? When I mean you, I don't mean you,

17 personally. I mean the Croats in general. Why did you ask them to leave

18 their houses, their homes?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, nobody persuaded them

20 to leave or forced them to leave.

21 You said that our place was small. Yes, it was. Before the war,

22 Sunja was part of Sisak municipality. We were just a local commune. And

23 to make things clearer to you, I have to say that this part or this

24 neighbourhood between the railway line and the Sava River was occupied by

25 Croats; 90 per cent were Croats. Sunja, Krivaj, Zremen, Bobovac, Gornja

Page 45095

1 and Donja Letina, and the border on the Sava River. Across the railway

2 line, there were villages with a predominantly Serb population. We

3 called that area Maksimir, but there were also Citvertkovac [phoen],

4 Drljaca, Donji Hrastovac, Paukova [phoen], Mala and Velika Gradusa.

5 Those villages were part of the locale commune of Sunja, but all those

6 villages were inhabited by the Serbian population. And I stated in my

7 statement that the part between the railway line and the Sava River and

8 the streets in that area, that's where the Socialist Alliance was

9 located. And along the Sinjak [phoen]-Sunja-Dubica road and where the

10 road forks off from Hrastovac to Hrvatska Kostajnica, in that part we

11 could not even go to Voldera [phoen] Polje, where there was local

12 population between the railway line leading to Novska. We were on the

13 very outskirt of the streets called Vladimir Nazer [phoen] and

14 Milos Podric [phoen], and those two streets led towards the railway line

15 leading to Sisak. We had only the area where the Vajda company, and

16 that's very close to the railway station, maybe 50 or 60 metres away from

17 the railway station, but we could not enter Vajda, we could not go to

18 Vajda because of them, and that part was what we called -- and it was our

19 front-line.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm interrupting you because

21 you haven't answered my question. What I would like to know is what

22 became of the civilians. Did they leave of their own accord or did you

23 force them to leave? What happened to them? That's what I'm interested

24 in.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, nobody forced them to

Page 45096

1 leave. I have to -- if I may, I would like to finish my sentence. They

2 left of their own will, without us even knowing when they left. On the

3 27th, there were no longer there. Those who remained there were just

4 there.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So the 27th of what

6 month? You said on the 27th, they weren't there anymore. Which months

7 do you mean?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 27th of July, 1991. And if

9 I might be allowed to just add something.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, I won't allow you because

11 my time is invaluable.

12 On the 27th of July, 1991, had they all left or did some remain?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in my statement I said that

14 some of them stayed. Those who stayed, well, there were no repercussions

15 that they were exposed to. They went where they wanted in Croatia, where

16 they had relatives and so on, of their own free will, and the younger

17 members joined the army.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How many Serbs remained in

19 Sunja, how many exactly?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't give you any figures,

21 but in the Croatian Army there were more than ten, and three Muslims, and

22 they were inhabitants of Sunja.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are telling us that some

24 Serbs and Muslims joined the Croatian Army. What I'm interested in: How

25 many Serb civilians remained in their houses in Sunja; one, ten, fifty?

Page 45097

1 How many?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About a dozen, ten or so.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have told us that

4 General Praljak asked you to look after logistical affairs. These Serbs

5 who were there, did they have enough to eat, did they have enough food,

6 like all the others, or not?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They all had the same food, just

8 like the Croatian Army; not only the Serb inhabitants at the beginning,

9 but the Croats too, all the same.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] From what I understood, in

11 Sunja there must have been fighting. Yes or no?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there were major

13 battles to begin with, but they didn't manage to break through our

14 front-lines, but they did shell us heavily.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Among the people

16 living in Sunja, because of the shelling, were any of the people killed

17 or injured?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, about four. Two women -- or,

19 rather, three women were killed in the shelling, and one man. I'm

20 referring to the civilians now.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Sunja forces headed by

22 General Praljak, did you capture any enemies or not?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While General Praljak was the

24 commander, we didn't have any prisoners, but at the beginning, the very

25 beginning, we had two, one before General Praljak was the commander,

Page 45098

1 while Zarko Pesa was the commander, that is, and we exchanged one of them

2 for one of ours, one of our soldiers who was captured.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One of my last questions. Now,

4 as far as you remember, General Praljak exercised command for how long,

5 and when was he no longer a commander in Sunja?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said in September 1991.

7 I'm not sure of the exact date when he took over. And in April, he left

8 Sunja, so that was the period of time that he was commander there,

9 commander of the defence of Sunja.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question. You told us

11 a while ago that every morning General Praljak hoisted the flag and

12 someone was playing the trumpet. I assume this was the Croatian national

13 anthem which was being played. General Praljak then held a briefing

14 session which lasted approximately 30 minutes, as you told us, and then

15 he questioned everybody to understand what was going on. What you have

16 described to us, did it apply to the period of time, i.e., six months

17 that General Praljak was there, i.e., hoisting the flag, briefing? Did

18 this occur every day?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every day, every day while he was

20 the commander there. And when he left Sunja, the tradition continued.

21 Well, I can't say "tradition," actually, but, anyway, this continued

22 in --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as the troops were

24 concerned, how many men accounted for the forces in Sunja; 100, 200, 400?

25 How many?

Page 45099

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the first couple of months, the

2 forces in Sunja, and not only there, but depending on the period, it was

3 between 1500 and 2.000 soldiers, 2.500, and from other regiments, special

4 units and so on.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ranging from 1.500 to 2.000

6 men, which is quite a substantial figure. In any army, you always have

7 black sheep, people who start drinking, who start fighting, who start

8 looting and pilfering. As far as you know, were these soldiers

9 prosecuted in any way? Were any disciplinary measures taken against

10 these people? Did General Praljak hold a very strict position vis-a-vis

11 these men who had violated the discipline in the army or was it total

12 chaos?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think -- well, just like you

14 said, Your Honour, at times somebody drank more than they should, but

15 I think discipline was at a high level, generally speaking. There wasn't

16 any major chaos because we were all together at the time. We didn't look

17 at each other's ethnicity. We were just all there together, defending

18 our thresholds.

19 And if I might be allowed to say, well, I'd like to mention to

20 the Trial Chamber that Sunja, and we called it breakfast, lunch, and

21 supper, whenever we would distribute food to the soldiers, there was

22 shelling, non-stop, until UNPROFOR arrived in April, and then the

23 shelling was not as fierce as it had been before that. But on a daily

24 basis, it was between 100, 200, and 300 shells falling on Sunja. But

25 when UNPROFOR came, over 40.000 shells were dropped on Sunja.

Page 45100

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the presence of

2 General Praljak, did you attend any briefing sessions which aimed at

3 setting up the defence of that locality, and do you remember what kind of

4 instructions General Praljak may have given the soldiers? You were a

5 lieutenant in the JNA. Therefore, the question I am putting to you is

6 this: Were the forces in Sunja commanded by someone who was in the know

7 or did General Praljak give the impression that he was an amateur?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At every briefing session while the

9 commander was Praljak, and also the other commanders too, I was present,

10 and I had the rank of major, major of the Croatian Army. It was like an

11 assistant commander for logistics, let's say. And every day, I had

12 contacts and cooperated with General Praljak because the briefings were

13 in the morning, and then I had my duties to attend to. I had to go to

14 the 1st Logistics Base which was in Sisak, and then it was expanded to

15 Zagreb. So I had to travel around to procure goods, weapons, and

16 everything else.

17 And I'd just like to say that at the beginning, we weren't armed

18 at all, not so much at all. The weapons that we had, well, at the

19 beginning you had the various hunters with their hunting rifles, and I

20 said that. I said, in response to a question from Defence counsel, until

21 the 2nd Guards Company and reserve police from Zagreb arrived, they

22 helped us a great deal because they were well armed, so then we were --

23 we were less afraid than we were at the beginning when we only had the

24 hunting rifles. And at the beginning, we had to secure all access roads

25 with anti-tank barriers.

Page 45106

1 If you don't understand a question, which can happen, please ask

2 the person putting the question to reformulate it.

3 We have breaks every hour and a half. The next break will be in

4 an hour and 25 minutes. But if for some reason you feel unwell, just

5 raise your hand and say that you need a break so you can rest, even if we

6 have to bring a physician or something, but this is a possibility.

7 I wanted to tell you all this to put you at ease. It's true that

8 testifying is an ordeal, you know, and you'll remember it all

9 throughout -- for your entire life, I'm sure, so it's best to make sure

10 that everything runs smoothly.

11 I'll now give the floor to Ms. Pinter, and she will put questions

12 to you.

13 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Examination by Ms. Pinter:

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Crnkovic.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. You've been provided instructions from the Trial Chamber. The

18 only thing I need to repeat is not to speak too fast and wait for my

19 question to be over before you start providing your answer, and the same

20 thing applies to me. I will also have to make sure that we do not

21 overlap.

22 Before you, you should have a summary under number 3D03758 that

23 has already been provided to our learned friends in the OTP and the

24 Trial Chamber. Have you read this summary?

25 A. Yes, I have.

Page 45107

1 Q. Does this summary contain something that you didn't say or that

2 has been mis-recorded?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. And now, as regards His Honour Antonetti's words, I'm

5 going to ask you: How come you retired? He was surprised to hear that.

6 A. Because of the circumstances. I was seriously injured during the

7 war.

8 Q. So you are an invalid?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. You have provided His Honour Judge Antonetti with

11 your personal details, and could you please also tell us something about

12 your work path, i.e., where you were, what unit were you a member of, and

13 where you served during the war between 1992 and 1993?

14 A. From the month of March 1991 up to the month of June 1991, I was

15 a member of the Special Police of the Croatian Army. From the month of

16 June 1991 to the moment when I was wounded and pensioned off eventually,

17 I was a member of the 2nd Guards Brigade.

18 Q. When were you wounded?

19 A. I was wounded on the 7th of July, 1992.

20 Q. We'll come back to that later. Could you please tell us where

21 you served as a member of the Croatian Army, in which territories?

22 A. Those were mostly territories around my place of residence. I'm

23 talking about Banovina and, more specifically, the towns of Glina,

24 Kozibrod, Sunja -- not Kosovo, Kozibrod, Sunja, and after that for some

25 ten days I was in Mostar, and four or five days before I was wounded I

Page 45108

1 was in Bosnian Posavina.

2 Q. Thank you. We will start with Sunja. However, you have just

3 mentioned the fact that you were in the theatre of war of Banovina. What

4 is Banovina?

5 A. Banovina is the area around Cerska comprising Sunja, Glina,

6 Kozibrod, Hrvatska, Kostajnica. That's the area I'm talking about.

7 Q. When did you arrive in Sunja?

8 A. I arrived in Sunja on the 31st of August, 1991.

9 Q. Could you tell us something about the front-line as it was when

10 you arrived in Sunja?

11 A. The front-line, as such, did not exist.

12 Q. What did you find there?

13 A. We found houses, some sandbags on the windows which were supposed

14 to serve as protection and serve as a defence line. However, that could

15 not function in that way.

16 Q. When you say "when we arrived," who do you mean? Which unit

17 arrived there, which brigade? What was it?

18 A. I'm talking about my company, a company of the 2nd Guards

19 Brigade.

20 Q. How many men were there in the company?

21 A. Forty-seven.

22 Q. The front-line, as you found it when you arrived in Sunja, did it

23 remain that way throughout your stay in Sunja?

24 A. No, of course not. It was extended from the front-line to the

25 second line to the third line.

Page 45109

1 Q. When was that?

2 A. All that happened after General Praljak's arrival.

3 Q. Can you describe the situation and the changes in the front-line?

4 Were the lines reinforced, were the trenches dug, were the bunkers built?

5 What was the front-line composition?

6 A. When General Praljak arrived, he saw what the situation was, and

7 he embarked on the process to reinforce the line. He established

8 civilian protection, composed of men who did not carry arms at the

9 moment, and he turned them into auxiliary work platoons that were in

10 charge of supplying the front-line with sandbags, logs that were all used

11 to build bunkers. He met with resistance. I was also among those who

12 did not like all that, because we were all very tired, and he started

13 digging, himself. When we saw that we didn't have a choice and we joined

14 him.

15 A few days after the bunker was dug between the railway station

16 where we were billeted, there was an attack during which the whole

17 railway station was set ablaze and destroyed. I can simply say that the

18 bunker that was dug and all the other bunkers saved our lines. That's

19 how the second line was established, the third line was established, the

20 fourth as well. All the men, all the soldiers who resided in the

21 villages, were organised at the highest possible level. Everybody knew

22 what they were supposed to do, what their tasks were. And to put it

23 simply, everything functioned really excellently at the time.

24 Q. Can you remember, as you sit today, how many bunkers were

25 constructed in that way, how many trenches?

Page 45110

1 A. Roughly speaking, over 200.

2 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the work platoon. Can you tell me

3 whether that work platoon went to the front-line on its own to dig

4 bunkers and trenches? Did they have some sort of security? Were they

5 exposed to enemy attacks? Did somebody go with them? Were they guarded?

6 A. We provided security for them. And when I say "we," we were the

7 unit that was active on the front-line. We were in front of them, and in

8 any case of a possible attack we would inform them and alert them to

9 that. So they were safe as much as one could be safe in a war. In any

10 case, I don't remember that any civilian got hurt when reinforcing the

11 front-line or digging bunkers or trenches.

12 Q. When you say "civilians," we're talking about younger people, or

13 middle-aged people, or elderly people?

14 A. Middle-aged people who at that moment were not assigned to any

15 military units because there was not enough weaponry.

16 Q. You were in different theaters of war. Could you please tell us

17 something about discipline in Sunja? How was it established, and what

18 did discipline mean for Sunja? Can you give us some examples of that,

19 discipline among soldiers, discipline of soldiers, vis-a-vis others,

20 particularly civilians?

21 A. Before General Praljak arrived, there was no discipline to speak

22 of. He opposed any attempts to breach discipline. He did not allow any

23 departures from the normal military norm. He did not allow anybody to

24 loot property, to set anybody's property to fire, to loot property from

25 abandoned houses. All the houses were abandoned. And if -- one can say

Page 45111

1 that there were all sorts of people, and some of them, you had to engage

2 in physical fights with some of them in order to curb their behaviour.

3 I can give you some examples. I can mention three of my soldiers who

4 dis-appropriated from a house five plates, five spoons, some three

5 knives, and a small black-and-white TV, and one of the members of my

6 unit --

7 Q. You don't have to mention their names if --

8 A. One of the members of my unit lost his house because it had been

9 burned by the enemy. His wife had called him and told him that there was

10 nothing in the apartment where she was moved to in Sisak. The same three

11 or four soldiers were caught on the barge as they were crossing the river

12 to go to Sisak, and they were returned to Sunja.

13 Q. Who caught them?

14 A. A member of the police caught them.

15 Q. Was it civilian police?

16 A. Yes, because the military police did not exist at the time.

17 Q. Yes, go ahead, please.

18 A. At that point in time, one of my friends, who was coming back

19 from the command, from headquarters, told me, since I was up at the

20 front-line, that General Praljak had disarmed them, stripped them of

21 their insignia and badges, and lined them up in front of the fire brigade

22 in Sunja, which was a place that served as a headquarters for the home

23 guards, of sorts. And at that point in time, I got into my car, went

24 down there, asked him what was going on. He said that, quite simply, I

25 should put them into a black Maraja [phoen] and drive them off to Sisak,

Page 45112

1 to the prison there, because at the time there wasn't a prison in Sunja.

2 There was a small prison up at the front-line, but there would be nobody

3 to deal with them there or guard them there. So I carried out that order

4 and I drove them to the detention centre. They were taken over by the

5 police there. And three years later, the Military Court in Zagreb heard

6 the case, and I was a witness there during those proceedings.

7 Q. Those three soldiers, did they have any assistants, legal

8 assistants?

9 A. No. I came to the command to tell them that, and he saw them in

10 such a way as calling up his personal lawyer in Zagreb, who then went to

11 Sisak, to the Detention Unit there, to solve the issue and deal with the

12 case.

13 Q. And who is the "he"?

14 A. The "he" is General Praljak.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, I have a piece of information, and I'm going to

16 ask you whether you know anything about that. Was any staged

17 execution -- was an execution staged in any way?

18 A. Well, he said that he would have them executed, but at that point

19 when this was going on, in front of the fire brigade a large number of

20 locals gathered who were members of the units from Sunja, and members of

21 the police force, and everyone was told what would happen if similar

22 situations repeated themselves in Sunja. And, actually, things like that

23 didn't happen anymore.

24 Q. You said that it was the civilian police stopping your soldiers

25 at the barge and ferry and found these goods on them. Do you know when

Page 45113

1 the military police arrived?

2 A. The military police arrived at the end of October, beginning of

3 November, and Mr. Praljak brought them in, brought people in from outside

4 whom we didn't know, because he assumed and knew that the locals wouldn't

5 be able to lock up their own -- their neighbours, if such a situation

6 were to arise, so he brought in people from outside.

7 Q. Were you witnesses of any -- witness to any of these reactions on

8 the part of General Praljak, apart from this instance that you told

9 about, about the theft of goods from houses?

10 A. Well, I was a witness when -- or, rather, I witnessed when two of

11 the people who were ferrying people to and fro, from Sisak and Zagreb to

12 Sunja, weapons and so on, they refused to carry out a very important

13 order.

14 Q. Can you tell us what that order was and describe the situation?

15 A. At the time, there was talk of launching a great action to link

16 up the Komarevo-Kozibrod -- or, rather, Sunja, Hrvatska Kojstana [phoen],

17 Dubica and those units, and the order could only come from Zagreb, in

18 writing, through -- on the ferry. Now, as General Praljak insisted that

19 the ferry stay overnight on the Sunja side so that if anybody was

20 wounded, they could be transported, these two turned a deaf ear to calls

21 to take somebody across. However -- well, as the person carrying the

22 order rang up the command in Sunja and said that these two men were

23 refusing to ferry him across, the general issued orders to --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak up, please. The

25 interpreters didn't hear.

Page 45114

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, in order to assess

2 your answers, we have something missing. You seem to be someone well

3 educated, but I don't know what you did before you joined the Croatian

4 Army. Did you go to a school, to university? If so, could you tell us

5 where?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I graduated from secondary school.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You said that

8 before you arrived in the 2nd Guards Brigade, you were a member of the

9 Special Police of the Croatian Army. What exactly is the Special Police?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the name, "Special

11 Police," police actually going about the usual kinds of duties;

12 protecting the law courts in Sisak and some important locations, nothing

13 with respect to any military action, because there wasn't any in the

14 area.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I understand better

16 now.

17 Ms. Pinter.

18 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You were saying -- you were saying that there were two men

20 manning the ferry and that they were brought to the headquarters?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. Please continue.

23 A. There was a lot of noise and shouting, and the two were arguing.

24 Q. Which two?

25 A. The general and one of those two ferrymen or bargemen. One of

Page 45115

1 the ferrymen started shouting at the general, and there was a lot of

2 shoving and pushing, as I say in my statement.

3 Q. And describe what you mean.

4 A. Well, there was a lot of kicking in the bum, butt kicking.

5 Q. Do you know why the general reacted that way?

6 A. Well, of course I knew, because if an operation were underway and

7 we hadn't received orders, then the two units would have encountered an

8 ambush and there would have been slaughter.

9 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] I'd like the transcript to be

10 corrected on page 36, line 24. I'm going to read what it says in the

11 record. It says that there was a lot of kicking in the bum or butt.

12 Q. Was there a lot of kicking or were there several kicks?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer?

14 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You mentioned the military police. I'd like to ask you whether

16 you had any knowledge of any action on General Praljak's part towards the

17 policemen, towards members of the military police, if their conduct was

18 not in keeping with the rules of conduct?

19 A. Well, those members of the military police, after a certain

20 amount of time, started taking more and more responsibility into their

21 hands. They settled accounts with the soldiers physically, and there was

22 some dangerous situations where there could be shooting, too. However,

23 the general stopped all this and sent that group of military policemen

24 back to Zagreb, or Sisak, or wherever they had come from, and he set up a

25 new military police platoon made up of locals.

Page 45116

1 Q. So it wasn't a problem that these were locals anymore? He didn't

2 have any problem with the locals?

3 A. No, there were no more problems. Orders were no longer rejected.

4 There were no more problems.

5 Q. What I'd like to ask you is to tell us what was forbidden. What

6 did General Praljak forbid when you were in Sunja, or have you already

7 told us this?

8 A. Well, it was forbidden to touch anybody's property. All the

9 houses had been left vacant. And it was forbidden to shoot at somebody

10 before that somebody shot at you. Then it was strictly forbidden to set

11 fire to anything, and nothing was set fire to, in actual fact, down

12 there. So all these measures and steps -- precautionary measures and

13 steps were taken.

14 Q. Tell me, please, if there was unnecessary shooting, what would

15 the penalty be?

16 A. Well, the penalty and punishment depended on the units and the

17 people involved, and they could be sent to do labour. You had to go and

18 work at the bunkers and build the fortifications, for example. That was

19 one of the assignments issued as a punishment.

20 Q. Did they have to walk around?

21 A. Well, I had to walk around.

22 Q. Well, tell us what you actually did.

23 A. Well, it was just a drill, a training. You had to walk just to

24 keep your physique up. There were truces, and it was during a cease-fire

25 that people fell casualty mostly because they were bored or things like

Page 45117

1 that, so to prevent that he would make us go up to the front-line or,

2 rather, below the front-line, which was called Zremen, the area, and we

3 would have to walk two kilometres through a muddy field. And when we

4 arrived, we saw a group of soldiers there who didn't even notice us, and

5 we were ordered to put some masks on our heads and to make believe and

6 simulate an attack, as if we were the enemy soldiers, because they hadn't

7 noticed us coming at all.

8 Q. And these were members of the HV, right, they were soldiers?

9 A. Yes, soldiers standing guard up at the bunkers.

10 Q. Yes. Carry on, then.

11 A. They were so taken up with their cooking - they were cooking

12 something - that we managed to take them prisoner. This was simulation

13 on our part. We sort of acted as if we were enemy soldiers and took them

14 by surprise. So you can imagine what they felt like and how he punished

15 them. I don't think they fared well.

16 Q. Well, was this leisurely behaviour the general type of behavior,

17 like these people cooking and so on?

18 A. Well, they didn't leave the front-lines, no.

19 Q. What about the guards?

20 A. Well, the lines lower down were secured by people who had bunkers

21 in front of their own houses. They were people from the village who

22 would just leave their bunkers during the day, and there was a field -- a

23 three-kilometre field in front of them, and they thought that nothing

24 could happen. And on one occasion, in the village of Zremen, the whole

25 village left their post at the bunkers.

Page 45118

1 Q. We're not going to mention the names of villages, but just tell

2 me, if you can remember, whether there was another situation similar to

3 that with a person leaving the bunker and going home into their own

4 house. I'm jogging your memory because I know you're excited, so I'm

5 just trying to help you remember.

6 A. Yes. The man had left his post at the bunker, and we appeared.

7 We came into his yard, the yard of his house. Following orders from

8 General Praljak to return to his post, he refused to do so and said,

9 Well, nobody was going to attack, anyway, and he had to go about his

10 business. He was a farmer and had to do his farming. And at that point,

11 Mr. Praljak told me to kill his cow. I knew that that wouldn't actually

12 happen. I staged it, and the farmer jumped up, left everything he was

13 doing, took up his rifle and went back to the bunker, and never again to

14 leave his post at the bunker after that.

15 Q. Did you talk to General Praljak and ask him why he said he wanted

16 you to kill the man's cow?

17 A. Well, it's along the lines of what I was telling you earlier on.

18 You had to take a strict stand with some people. He had to deal with

19 them this way, and he just said, That's the peasant mentality for you.

20 If you set fire to his house and to anything else, he's not going to be

21 angry with you, but if you kill his cow, then watch out.

22 Q. You just said that everything was adapted to the situation and

23 that he would adapt himself to the situation, that certain situations

24 required certain actions. Now, when General Praljak physically punished

25 somebody for some misdemeanor, was that not a sign that you could behave

Page 45119

1 in similar fashion towards other people? When I say "you," I mean the

2 other soldiers.

3 A. No, absolutely not.

4 Q. Why not? Can you explain that?

5 A. What do you mean?

6 Q. Well, I mean if General Praljak hits the ferryman or does what he

7 did with the cow, who's to say that this isn't sending a signal out to

8 you that you could act in similar fashion, that you could beat someone

9 up?

10 A. Well, of course we couldn't do that because we knew the hierarchy

11 very well. We knew who could do what at any given moment, so you

12 couldn't walk along the road and settle accounts with anybody you felt

13 like.

14 Q. Did you have any prisoners of war?

15 A. Yes, we did.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me.

17 Witness, when you confirm that Praljak punished people

18 physically, what do you have in mind, specifically?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, take that ferryman, for

20 instance. That -- the interpretation of "physical," well, the man wasn't

21 beaten so badly that he would be in hospital for five days. He could go

22 back to his job the very next day. So during that next day, a soldier

23 was drowning and he jumped in and saved him. It was enough for him to

24 show that he would act, if need be that he would settle accounts

25 physically with people, but they weren't beaten up so badly that they

Page 45120

1 ended up in hospital. So the second day, this same man saved the life of

2 this other soldier on the ferry, and then he was commended.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I have heard that, and I was not suggesting that

4 he -- that Praljak acted in an excessive way. But the examples you have

5 given seem to be very impulsive. With the punishment I have in mind, I

6 associate a situation where someone has done something wrong, he is told,

7 You have done something wrong, and then comes the punishment, which if it

8 is physical, can be formal, a certain amount of strokes, or can still be

9 informal, a slap in the face. Can you say anything about that, or was

10 your observation perhaps, what you said, not so technical?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was involved in situations where

12 an order was issued to a man on the front-line to do something or the

13 other, and that person refused, stood up and started moving or wants to

14 engage in a physical reaction -- in a physical action. So he would come

15 in to react against those who did things against the war of

16 law [as interpreted]. Such situations on the front-line existed. There

17 was no military police, there was no police at all, and somebody had to

18 do their job.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, if I have understood

21 correctly, you said that General Praljak sometimes resorted to force to

22 make sure that discipline was respected. I may have made a mistake, and

23 I stand to be corrected. If I make a mistake, I'd be grateful if you

24 corrected me. From what I understood, General Praljak sometimes kicked a

25 soldier in the buttocks when he had misbehaved. Was this something you

Page 45121

1 saw with your own eyes or not?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw the case that I described

3 involving the ferryman with my own two eyes. I eye-witnessed that.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can understand, for

5 instance, that a father slaps his child in the face, for instance, if his

6 child has stolen sweets without parents' approval, but when it is a case

7 of a military commander, who can demonstrate violence vis-a-vis one of

8 his subordinates, don't you think this could have a negative impact on

9 his soldiers, who will capture men and give this prisoner an order, Stand

10 in line, and then the prisoner doesn't obey, and then the soldiers would

11 hit the man in question? Do you think this could have an effect on his

12 men or not?

13 I understand that my question is a very tricky one. This is the

14 case put by the Prosecution. This question has already been put by the

15 Prosecution. Since you are an eye-witness, what I'm interested in is to

16 know what your feelings about this were. Did you agree or did you

17 disagree? You are the first person to actually mention this, so it's the

18 right time to ask you the question.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, listen. It was a message,

20 one could say, to us as well. Just contrary to what you have said, we

21 knew that we were not supposed to do any similar thing to any possible

22 prisoner of war. We were made aware of that. But the soldier who was

23 kicked in the butt, as you say, several times, if he had been reported to

24 the Military Court, at best he could have ended in jail. In any case,

25 I think that he fared much better the way he did.

Page 45122

1 I must say that we are now talking about things that had to be

2 put in the context of the times. It's very difficult for anybody who

3 wasn't there, and who doesn't understand what was happening, to

4 understand the whole context and the whole situation.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a short question

6 for you.

7 The regulators enshrine in their codes whatever they wish to

8 enshrine in any country. Now, as far as military rules are concerned,

9 sometimes include corporal punishment. The question I'd like to put to

10 you is this: I'd like to know, since you are a former major in the

11 Croatian Army, as is General Praljak a former general in the Croatian

12 Army, I wanted to know whether, in the military rules -- or let's say was

13 it admitted that corporal punishment was acceptable? Was this part of

14 the military rules in the Croatian Army?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This does not exist in the rules of

16 the Croatian Army. However, in 1991, 47 men and 100-plus civilians on

17 the front-line were not the Croatian Army. Those were the beginnings of

18 the creation of what would eventually turn into the Croatian Army.

19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I'll ask you once again, because now we have a whole picture.

22 You've already told us, but repeat, please. Why was it important? Why

23 did you just say that they could have ended up in jail, serving a long

24 sentence? Why was it important for the message to reach the command?

25 Was there any operation -- military operation that was under threat?

Page 45123

1 Were the lives of soldiers and civilians under threat? Why was it so

2 important for the message to reach the command?

3 A. Because the lives of the soldiers and civilians alike were under

4 threat, the lives of the soldiers of the two units with whom we were

5 supposed to embark on an operation together, at the same time. Can you

6 imagine what would have happened if such two units started and, because

7 of a stupid omission, we did not receive any command? Can you imagine

8 what the consequences would have been? I believe that the consequences

9 would have surpassed any type of any punishment.

10 Q. We're still talking about the --

11 A. Yes, that's the operation.

12 Q. We're talking --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the name of the

14 operation, because it was lost in the witness's answer.

15 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

16 Q. The interpreter has asked me to repeat the name of the operation

17 because we overlapped. I asked you whether we're still talking about the

18 event involving the ferryman. Please wait and then answer. Go ahead.

19 A. Yes, this is the incidence that we are talking about. We are

20 talking about the D-Day operation.

21 Q. And that involved the story with the ferryman, that

22 Operation D-Day?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. We are privy to the information that I would like you to describe

25 for the Trial Chamber about the incident when Radio 101 came to Sunja and

Page 45124

1 when there were some playful soldiers, to put it that way. Could you

2 describe, in your own words, what happened and what kind of punishment

3 was involved in that situation, if there was, indeed, any punishment at

4 all?

5 A. In the month of September/October 1991, a group of young people

6 from Zagreb arrived and established a radio service in Sunja so that

7 people on the front-line could receive greetings from their loved ones.

8 A girl was there. She also came with that group of people, and she

9 brought a cat from Zagreb, that was her cat. Four members of the

10 Croatian Army at the time were on their way back from Zagreb. They

11 returned from Zagreb, went to the radio station, and wanted to order a

12 few songs, and then she told them that they had to wait a little. One of

13 the soldiers took the cat and threw her -- threw the cat against the

14 radiator and killed the cat. The girl started crying, came to me. I

15 conveyed all that to the general. At that very moment, the general

16 appeared up there, disarmed all the four soldiers. He removed their

17 insignia and their uniforms and sent them packing for Zagreb, and those

18 men were never again members of the Croatian Army in Sunja.

19 Q. And how did you explain the whole thing to yourself? How did you

20 interpret General Praljak's reaction to yourself?

21 A. It was a message, of course. The message was, If you can be

22 removed from the Croatian Army on account of a cat, you should also be

23 aware of what can happen to you on account of a human being.

24 Q. How was it with unnecessary shooting? And we've already spoken

25 about that. What was the punishment for unnecessary shooting? Can you

Page 45125

1 tell us why the 15th of January, 1992, is important for the Republic of

2 Croatia?

3 A. That is one of the most important dates in our history. That's

4 the date when Croatia was recognised by the international community.

5 Q. Where were you when Croatia was recognised by the international

6 community?

7 A. I was in Sunja, on the front-line.

8 Q. Was that recognition celebrated? And if it was, can you describe

9 how?

10 A. The recognition was not celebrated because we were not allowed to

11 fire a single shot. The only people who celebrated on our behalf was our

12 enemy, who shelled us.

13 Q. What kind of uniforms did you wear, the army? What kind of

14 uniforms?

15 A. Camouflaged uniforms.

16 Q. Camouflaged uniforms. Did you have any black uniforms as well?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you allowed to wear some insignia, such as letter U, or were

19 you allowed to write something on your T-shirt or on the wall of the

20 command building?

21 A. Not in Sunja.

22 Q. How come?

23 A. It was forbidden, as some lads, I don't know where from - a lot

24 of people came - they did draw something on a house, on a wall, and they

25 were forced to paint over that.

Page 45126

1 Q. We heard from Mr. Arbutina just before you that every morning

2 there was a briefing, that a flag was hoisted. Did that happen

3 throughout your stay in Sunja?

4 A. After the general arrived, not before that, all of the commanders

5 of the front-lines were supposed to come to the firefighters hall every

6 morning, attend the hoisting of the flag, and debrief the general on the

7 events during the previous night, whether there was any shooting, whether

8 there were any shells that fell, were there any incursions, and so on and

9 so forth.

10 Q. How was reporting and communication organised? Now, you just

11 told us that the general had to be debriefed on what had happened during

12 the previous night. How was it organised? Were there any problems?

13 What kind of information reached you with this regard?

14 A. There was no problem at all. All the lines and positions were

15 connected via the so-called field telephones, and all the commanders of

16 the lines of the companies had Motorolas and could communicate throughout

17 the day.

18 Q. Tell me, please, did it happen to you that you received some

19 false information, that you embarked on an operation, and that there was

20 no operation to speak of?

21 A. Of course. It happened quite often. There was information about

22 helicopter attacks, and every time, as a group, we went to verify the

23 information and check the situation on the ground, the general came with

24 us twice, but it all came to nothing on both occasions.

25 Q. When you were on the front-lines, did you always have enough

Page 45127

1 weapons or did the weaponry have to be supplemented on the front-lines?

2 A. It all depended on the intensity of the attacks. It often

3 happened that we ran out of ammunition. On several dozen times, the

4 general, himself, personally came with the logistics man to supply us

5 with ammunition, all that under the enemy fire.

6 Q. Very well. Did the general participate in any military

7 operations or was he sitting in the command office, waiting for your

8 reports to reach him?

9 A. The general mostly walked along the front-lines, communicated

10 with people. He was a very usual presence there, and he participated as

11 a foot soldier in an operation together with me, not as a commander but

12 as a foot soldier. The operation was to rescue a civilian from an enemy

13 village.

14 Q. And you were his commander on that occasion?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please tell us, in more detail, what operation was

17 that, what civilian was that, what was his or her ethnicity, and where it

18 was?

19 A. That was not far from the front-line. A member of our unit, or,

20 rather, his father stayed behind in the village, and he was a Serb, and

21 he refused to leave the village. His son feared for his life. He feared

22 that his father could be killed. He asked us to accompany him during the

23 night and rescue the father from the village. He couldn't do it on his

24 own. He feared that he might be captured. We did that without any fire

25 having to be opened. We returned, and that man remained in our territory

Page 45128

1 together with his son.

2 Q. So that was at the son's request; right?

3 A. Yes, the son came with that request, made it to General Praljak,

4 and General Praljak addressed us and turned to us.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] While I was listening to you, I

6 have just discovered, but this is something we heard about with the

7 previous witness, you have just told us that there were Serbs in your

8 unit?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell us, please, what

11 state of mind your Serb comrades were in when they were on the front-line

12 and when they faced Serbs opposite? How could they overcome this

13 difficulty?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were all of us volunteers of the

15 Croatian Army, people who joined up of their own free will, not people

16 who had been mobilised, so every member had come alone, reported, and

17 become a member of the Croatian Army. We were young men, 22, 23 years

18 old. We never asked who was what nationality, ethnicity.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You haven't quite answered my

20 question. I admit that my question is a difficult one.

21 You were a member of a unit in which there were also Serb

22 comrades. The enemy are the Serbs. I'm trying to understand the

23 position of your Serbian comrade. How does he cope with the situation

24 when opposite him, in front of him, there are Serbs? How does he

25 overcome this difficulty? This is what I'm trying to understand.

Page 45129

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, quite simple. If there was

2 an attack from the Serbs, people defended themselves. Of course, they

3 shot. I had a soldier in my unit who was a Serb, and his brother was 100

4 metres away on the opposite side as a member of the enemy army. So

5 that's how things were. I don't know how else to paint the situation for

6 you. They were fighting for their lives on both sides.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's the first time I hear

8 this, but we do discover something new every day.

9 You have, in your Croatian unit, a Serb soldier, and in the other

10 unit on the other side, there was a Serb who was a member of a unit on

11 the other side. In the event of an attack, you defend yourselves. In

12 other words, the person in question -- what you are telling us, in fact,

13 is that any individual values are higher than --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, listen --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

16 continues]... form or idea.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

18 a specific situation, the one with the man who was on our side and his

19 brother, of course it was difficult for him. At least I assume it was

20 difficult for him. But he didn't in any way give the impression that he

21 would simply cross over to the other side and that he would do anything

22 that wasn't in order. He did not feel to be jeopardised. He was there

23 with us. I don't know how to answer your question. I didn't ask him

24 whether he was a Serb. I didn't say, Are you a Serb? He came forward

25 and told us, himself, in a situation in which negotiations -- military

Page 45130

1 negotiations were going on, peace negotiations between our two sides, and

2 his brother was the leader of a group on the Serb side, and he was our

3 leader on the other side, where these two commanders established a truce.

4 I don't know how he felt. You'd have to ask him that.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You're quite right,

6 it would be better to put the question to him, but we don't have time,

7 unfortunately, to do this.

8 Could you tell me whether General Praljak delivered speeches to

9 his soldiers? And if he did, what were the speeches about, We need to

10 defend ourselves because there's a front-line, or did he promote the

11 values of the Republic of Croatia? How did he enthuse his soldiers? If

12 he didn't deliver any speeches, well, then you can just tell me that you

13 can't answer the question. But if you remember any of General Praljak's

14 speeches before his soldiers, what did he actually tell them in these

15 speeches?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember one occasion, one speech

17 a long time ago, when we were taking the oath. Well, it was all very

18 brief. There wasn't time for much else. He just said, Guys, look after

19 yourselves, defend yourselves, don't compromise yourselves, just look out

20 for yourselves. There wasn't time for any great speeches and talk.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Didn't General Praljak tell the

22 soldiers that they needed to defend themselves because there were

23 aggressors out there and the republic was in danger, or did he provide no

24 reasons for this; in other words, that they had to defend themselves?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we knew full well who we were

Page 45131

1 defending ourselves against and what we were defending. We didn't need

2 to be told. We weren't in kindergarten. We knew who was attacking us,

3 and we knew who we were at war against.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Tell me, why did you have to

5 defend yourselves?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to defend ourselves because

7 somebody was attacking us, especially me. They had set fire to my house

8 barely a month prior to that, so I had to defend myself. So everybody

9 defends himself when he's under attack.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 Ms. Pinter.

12 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. And following on from Judge Antonetti's question, I have this

14 question for you: At the time in Sunja, and later on, did you ever check

15 and verify who was what ethnicity?

16 A. No. In 1991, while I was in the army, there were no discussions

17 about ethnicity; I don't believe so.

18 Q. Did you ever hear General Praljak checking somebody's ethnicity

19 and, in that way, checking to see whether somebody could be a member of

20 the unit or not?

21 A. No, never. I never saw that, and that is proof that he didn't

22 know who was who. When he went 'round to express Orthodox greetings,

23 Christmas greetings, he went from one to the next, and he said, If

24 anybody was Orthodox, I say Happy Christmas to them, as he did for the

25 Muslim Bajram, because in my particular unit there were quite a lot of

Page 45132

1 Muslims and officers.

2 Q. And what about Catholic Christmas, did he say, Happy Christmas?

3 A. Yes, just like the other two, for the other two.

4 Q. Were there any special festivities during these religious

5 holidays?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Could you sit down, talk, have -- at a canteen or something, a

8 restaurant in Sunja?

9 A. Well, the general closed the cafes and taverns. They weren't

10 working. There was just this one canteen that was set up where you could

11 go every day, or, rather, a certain number of men could go every day,

12 20 per cent. You could go and have a drink. There wasn't that much

13 drink going 'round.

14 Q. Thank you. Let me just ask you two or three more questions

15 linked to Sunja. You mentioned several times the railway station, and

16 you said it was the line and that there were train cars there. What was

17 in those cars?

18 A. Wheat, corn, and they were in front of the railway station.

19 Q. Did anybody take this corn?

20 A. Yes. The members of the enemy army, they did.

21 Q. Could you tell us what happened?

22 A. Well, on one occasion I saw several men. I didn't see their

23 faces. I just saw them up to the waist -- down to the waist, and I saw

24 them taking the corn out of the train cars. And I informed Mr. Praljak,

25 because some of my soldiers were getting ready to shoot, and that was in

Page 45133

1 broad daylight. He turned up and, quite simply, did not allow anybody to

2 shoot. Later on, we learnt that those were, in fact, civilians, people

3 whom the army had forced to go and collect the corn, without worrying

4 whether we would shoot at them or not.

5 Q. And that was just once, was it? Did that happen once, that

6 things were taken from the train cars?

7 A. Well, it happened several times, but nobody ever shot at them.

8 Q. When did that take place?

9 A. During the day, in broad daylight.

10 Q. Ever at night?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. So what was the order; not to shoot?

13 A. That's right, Do not shoot, and there was no shooting.

14 Q. You said at one point -- or, rather, you mentioned that the

15 military operations had died down when UNPROFOR arrived, there was a sort

16 of lull. We put it that way. Can you tell us how the day was organised

17 then? What did you do during this lull? Did you sit around in the

18 canteen, did people go home to their homes, to Sisak, or did they stay up

19 at the lines, or what?

20 A. They stayed up at the lines. We would go home just as we did

21 before. And there were training exercises, attacks, defence, marches,

22 complete mobilisation, so there was no free time, no time for anybody to

23 be free and do what they liked.

24 Q. And who conducted these exercises with you?

25 A. The general did.

Page 45134

1 Q. Did he lead the exercises or did he take part in the training and

2 exercises, or did he just say, Go here, go there, do this, do that?

3 A. No, he participated in almost all of them.

4 Q. Can you tell us what kind of exercises were held, if you can

5 remember? It's not important if you can't.

6 A. Well, I said. The exercises and training were simulations of

7 defence and attack, and so on.

8 Q. Simulations of defence out in the open, in a house, or where?

9 A. Yes, outside, in the open, and up at the positions.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, did you provide training to anyone in Sunja?

11 A. Yes, I trained various guys who came in later and who didn't have

12 any military training. I just prepared them should they be sent to the

13 front-line.

14 Q. I assume that when there was shooting and when there was a lull,

15 that there were moments when you were able to have some contact with

16 General Praljak outside military operations. Or let me ask you: Were

17 there any moments when you talked to General Praljak without it being a

18 briefing, or you reporting to him about the situation, or what had

19 happened up at the front, or whether anybody was wounded, or the like?

20 A. Well, yes, we did. We would go to the headquarters where he was,

21 and he would sit us down, and he'd read a book to us.

22 Q. Tell us, what book?

23 A. Tolstoy.

24 Q. What did he say? Why was he reading Tolstoy to you?

25 A. He said, Well, it wasn't enough to be a fighter, combatant, but

Page 45135

1 we had to be educated as well. Of course, we found it boring, but we had

2 to sit there all the time.

3 Q. Well, maybe it was useful.

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Witness, since a number of us

6 are interested in legal issues, we'd like to know which book you read.

7 Was it "War and Peace" or was it "Anna Karenina," or what?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I read that myself later on.

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] "War and Peace," or another

10 story, another novel? Maybe you don't remember the title.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just said the general read

12 Tolstoy to me, and later on I read "Anna Karenina" and "War and Peace"

13 myself, alone.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, earlier you mentioned

16 a fact, and I'd like to come back to it. I thought I understood that

17 General Praljak had given instructions for civilians not to be shot at,

18 even if they were looting warehouses. Is that what you said?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, but they were Serb

20 civilians.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Did you say that

22 because you know that in Canada there has been a trial against officers

23 who ordered people to shoot in -- to shoot against civilians who were

24 looting warehouses? I think it was at Somalia. Did you answer whilst

25 knowing of this Canadian case? Out of memory, I remember that one of the

Page 45136

1 officers was defended by one of the counsels that is often in this

2 Tribunal.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know about that case.

4 But I do know about this case because I was there, so it's first-hand

5 information.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,

7 a Serb civilian could come and loot peacefully and could just loot and

8 then go home; the order was that he was not to be shot at?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in front of our lines, so

10 they were taking the corn from there, and it's an area -- it's no-man's

11 land, in actual fact. It's that separation line where there were these

12 train cars of corn. And they were there for six months, they'd been

13 there for six months, so I don't know why there's looting at all.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fair enough. So during this

15 conflict, the Serbs who were on the other side could come and loot the

16 corn, and the orders were that they were not to be shot at? Is that what

17 you're telling us?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the order given by

19 General Praljak in that situation.

20 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Crnkovic, to continue the topic of the corn, was it at a

22 period where it was difficult to come by food and that there were hungry

23 people?

24 A. Well, one can assume -- well, if they were taking corn in broad

25 daylight, I don't think that they had had enough to eat. Let me put it

Page 45137

1 that way.

2 Q. All right. And linked to Sunja, and this is my last question,

3 how long was General Praljak in Sunja? Or, rather, do you know when he

4 arrived and when he left, can you tell us that, or do you only know when

5 he arrived?

6 A. I know he arrived -- well, he came in September, but I think he

7 left at the end of January and beginning of February 1992.

8 Q. That means that it's September 1991, his arrival; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When I asked you about what you did at the beginning, you said

11 you were in the republic -- battle-fields of the Republic of Croatia, you

12 said that you were in Mostar, and you said that you were in Posavina.

13 I'd now like to ask you to explain to us how come you came to Mostar, and

14 when you arrived in Mostar, and what the situation was like in Mostar

15 when you got there.

16 A. It was in April 1992 when I went there. The then commander of

17 Sunja came to me and said -- we referred to him as Stari. When we talked

18 about Praljak, he said, You should go to Mostar and help Stari to train

19 people and establish lines in case of a JNA attack. Every commander

20 received the report to convey to his men and asked them whether anybody

21 volunteered to go. I can say with certainty that close to 500 people

22 volunteered. All wanted to go, and it was up to me to choose the

23 remaining nine. I selected them, and we went down there, and that was

24 towards the very end of April 1992.

25 Q. What was the situation like in Mostar? Had the war already

Page 45138

1 started?

2 A. No, no, the all out war did not start yet. However, there were

3 some signs pointing to that.

4 Q. And the lads that went with you, you said that 500 volunteered to

5 go with you, but you selected only 9. Could you please tell us who they

6 were? Were they already members of the Croatian Army? Were they

7 experienced? Were they members of your unit? Do you know what their

8 ethnic background was? It would be valuable if you knew that. We have

9 to bear that in account, and it's very valuable in this courtroom also.

10 A. Only one man was from my unit. The other eight were not. They

11 were members of the Home Guard Regiment, and they hailed from the

12 Kostajnica region. Since you are asking me about their ethnic

13 background, I can say that there were five Croats, three Serbs, and two

14 Muslims. I selected them personally. I really did not pay too much

15 attention to their ethnic background. At the end of the day, the

16 general's message was not to take nine Croats, but nine lads.

17 Q. How long were you in Mostar for?

18 A. Not more than ten days.

19 Q. What did you do there?

20 A. Well, two men stayed behind to try and train people to use an

21 anti-aircraft gun, two tried to establish military police units to patrol

22 in town, two were in the eastern Muslim part of Mostar, and two of us

23 were deployed in the western part of Mostar.

24 Q. And in very short outlines, could you please tell us about the

25 approach to the training of Croats and Muslims alike?

Page 45139

1 A. There were some civilian protection units. They didn't have

2 weapons, and Croats and Muslims cooperated. And when we told them, Dig a

3 trench here, they would do it, and they participated in the defence.

4 Having said that, I must say that in the Muslim part of Mostar, in the

5 eastern part of Mostar, our work came to nothing because people refused

6 to be engaged in any way. Their response was that they don't expect to

7 be attacked by anybody and that they didn't have any reason to defend

8 themselves, which means that they refused to cooperate in any way.

9 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] And now I just have two more

10 questions about Posavina, and I believe that General Praljak, with the

11 Court's permission, will have a question to put to you.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before we move on to

13 Posavina, what you're telling us is very interesting. You are one of the

14 few witnesses we've had who volunteered and who actually is telling a

15 story now.

16 So you went to Mostar with these nine other lads that you

17 selected. I note that there is five Croats, three Serbs, and two

18 Muslims. But you're going to Mostar, but could you tell us what you're

19 going to defend over there? Mostar is in the Republic of Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina. It is not located in the Republic of Croatia. So why are

21 you going there, yourself? Could you tell us what motivated you to go

22 there? Is it General Praljak who said, I need you, and if -- you would

23 have jumped over a bridge for him, or did you go there, you know, to

24 really defend something? But if it's the latter case that prevails,

25 could you tell us exactly what you were going to defend?

Page 45140

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have any reason to go and

2 defend anybody or anything. Nobody told me to go and wage a war there.

3 I was told to try and establish units there, to train their commanders,

4 and that was all. We were not engaged in any war operations down there

5 at all.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fair enough. I agree with what

7 you just said. However, this was -- was this a foreign state or was this

8 a notion that you just did not take into account -- that was not taken

9 into account at the time?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what you mean. In the

11 Croatian Army, there were also lads from Bosnia and Herzegovina, and at

12 the time we all thought that we were fighting the same enemy, the JNA.

13 And to put it simply, it was only after the conflicts between Croats and

14 Muslims when questions started being asked. At the time in question,

15 nobody thought in those terms. We simply went to help the people down

16 there to prevent the things from happening as they did to us, to help

17 them prepare themselves. We just wanted to pass on our experience, our

18 knowledge, to apply our experiences to prevent some things from happening

19 to them, because they had already happened to us and we didn't want to

20 see that repeating.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You are telling us

22 that according to you, the enemy was the JNA, and you didn't really think

23 about anything else, and that's why -- that's the reason why you went to

24 Mostar?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. That's how the two

Page 45141

1 Muslim lads went with me, to help their friends defend themselves from

2 the JNA, and that was the only motive they had.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When General Praljak asked you

4 to come, did he say, The JNA is around Mostar, it's in jeopardy, we have

5 to go there, or did he say, We have to go to Mostar because there are

6 Croats in Mostar, Croats who might be in jeopardy? What exactly did he

7 say?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak sent a message asking

9 us to come and help people organise themselves. He didn't mention either

10 Croats or Muslims. It was well known who was attacking everybody. He

11 didn't have to tell me that the JNA was down there and that they were

12 getting ready to prepare to attack Mostar. We knew it, even without him

13 telling us.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I thought I understand -- I

15 thought I understood, and please correct me if I'm wrong. It would be a

16 favour. But I thought I understood that when you arrived there, you

17 executed your mission, but that you found that the Muslims were hardly

18 cooperative, whereas they should have worked hand in hand in order to

19 achieve a common goal. So you found that -- you perceived the Muslims as

20 being a bit reluctant, as far as this common defence was concerned; is

21 that it?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a soldier. I'm not a

23 politician. I don't want to go into the reason why they refused to

24 cooperate. I came down there and tried to explain to them how to

25 establish lines. They refused to listen. I returned, I reported back to

Page 45142

1 the general, and he said, Okay, you don't have to go there anymore.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You had selected two Muslims,

3 so I would like to know whether you discussed with them in order to try

4 and find out why the Muslims didn't want to cooperate? Did you ask them?

5 Did you ask these two Muslim lads that you had selected, what their

6 opinion was on this?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't ask them anything.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the time, did you try and

9 understand what their motivations were or was this really way beyond the

10 scope of what you were supposed to do?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not feel that I could

12 influence them in any way, and I just did not give it a second thought.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Pinter, will we move to

14 Posavina now?

15 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That would

16 complete my full hour, the questions about Posavina.

17 Q. We know that you went to Posavina. When was that, under what

18 circumstances? And I'm also interested in the time-frame of your

19 departure there.

20 A. We left on the 3rd of July, 1992. At that moment, that's how it

21 functioned in the army. Lads, get on the buses. We are taking you on a

22 field mission. It was never announced two days ahead. And then in the

23 second village, we were told that we would be heading for Slavonia or, to

24 be more precise, Slavonski Brod. We arrived there, Mr. Praljak was

25 waiting for us there, and he told me to get onto one of -- onto the bus,

Page 45143

1 and informed the lads that it was their own choice whether they wanted to

2 cross or not. I did that. 50 per cent of the soldiers crossed, and the

3 other 50 per cent didn't.

4 Q. And do you know whether the 50 per cent that did not cross --

5 were they subject to any disciplinary procedure, were they punished

6 because of that?

7 A. No, nobody was punished. The men continued to work. Some of

8 them work to this very day, some have been pensioned off, some were

9 killed. In any case, nobody was punished on account of that. Nobody had

10 any problems. They were given a choice, to cross or not.

11 Q. Why did you cross? Tell us, please.

12 A. The then company commander told us, and we obviously saw that

13 Slavonski Brod had been destroyed. Shells were falling on us as we

14 approached it, and he told us that under the military law, we could go 30

15 kilometres deep into the enemy territory if somebody shelled our cities

16 and towns from that territory, that was the most compelling reason, the

17 fact that the Croatian territories were shelled from that area. And

18 another reason was the general was there, of course.

19 Q. You've just said that the general was there; yes?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you arrived in Posavina, did you meet with the general? Can

22 you describe the situation for us? Did you go to the front-line on your

23 own? Were you shown where to go? Did you know already where the

24 front-line was? How did that happen?

25 A. Of course we didn't know where the front-line was. We went there

Page 45144

1 during the night, we arrived during the night, and the general, himself,

2 took us around the front-line and showed us what we could see in the

3 dark.

4 Q. So what did that look like, when you were looking for the line?

5 Do you remember, as you sit there? If you don't remember, never mind,

6 it's not a big problem.

7 JUDGE PRANDLER: I'm sorry, Madam Pinter, to interrupt you, but I

8 would like to clarify one issue here.

9 It was not very clear, when you asked about going to

10 Slavonski Brod and when the witness answered to you. I believe that the

11 issue was, indeed, that they may have crossed to Serbian territory, not

12 to Slavonski Brod, itself, but to Serbian territory, because he spoke

13 about -- now let me quote:

14 "Shells were falling on us as we approached it, and he told us

15 that under the military law, we could go 30 kilometres deep into the

16 enemy territory if somebody shelled our cities and towns from that

17 territory, and that was the most compelling reason, the fact that the

18 Croatian territories were shelled from that area ."

19 My question is that: What was that area? And as I understood

20 it, it was that that action was taken against the Serbs, or JNA, from

21 Serbian territory, but I stand to be corrected if I am wrong.

22 Thank you.

23 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Maybe the witness should answer

24 instead of me testifying. I believe that there has been a

25 misunderstanding.

Page 45145

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. To the point where we

2 crossed, that was Croatian Posavina, those were Croatian villages,

3 Croatian population.

4 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In what state is Posavina?

6 A. In Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 JUDGE PRANDLER: Thank you. But again, of course, then I'm

8 saying that Sunja was, of course, and is Croatian territory, and then you

9 crossed through Posavina, that is Bosnia and Serbian -- sorry, the

10 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is what I would like to clarify.

11 Thank you.

12 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Was that part of the Serbian territory or was this the territory

14 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. It was not the Serbian territory. It was the Bosnian and

16 Herzegovinian territory.

17 Q. And who resided in that territory of Posavina?

18 A. The majority Croatian population, Muslim population.

19 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and counsel slow down and not

21 overlap.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Pinter, the Registry is

23 telling me that there's only five minutes left on the tape. Would you

24 rather that we break right now and then we'll resume after the break?

25 Yes, obviously. We're really running out of tape, so we need to break.