100125IT

Page 48814

1 Honours.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Mr. Prosecutor, you have the floor.

4 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours, everybody in and

6 around the courtroom.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Kruger:

8 Q. And Mr. Jasak, good afternoon to you, too.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, we're distributing the Prosecutor's

11 binders now. There are three binders, but this is only because I've

12 tried to divide my topics up into bite-sized sections, and each binder

13 relates to a specific section. Your Honour, for that purpose we're

14 distributing only binder 1. We'll distribute binders 2 and 3 during the

15 break, but now we'll only be focusing on binder number 1.

16 Thank you, Mr. Usher.

17 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honours, but before Mr. Kruger

18 begins, we entirely understand the practical reasons for the way he

19 proposed to deal with it, but, as a matter of fact, we would particularly

20 request having the binders now, binders 2 and 3, because we wish to get

21 going on working on them in various ways. So I'm sure there would be no

22 resistance to that request.

23 Thank you, and thank you, Mr. Kruger.

24 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour. There's no objection,

25 Your Honour. There was no reason except we were trying to save some

Page 48815

1 time, but we understand fully the position of the Defence on this.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Jasak, just turning very briefly to a topic you were

3 dealing with right -- a few moments ago with Defence counsel for

4 Mr. Stojic, and there's just one thing that I'd like to clarify with you

5 which I don't quite understand.

6 You say or you said that regarding the area south of Mostar, you

7 were aware that there was talk of linking up of Muslims within the HVO

8 with the ABiH, and that this would be to the detriment or with a view to

9 fighting or taking aggressive actions against the HVO. Do you confirm

10 that you possessed such information?

11 A. Mr. Prosecutor, we were privy to a piece of intelligence that

12 what was meant was to use soldiers of the HVO who were of Muslim

13 ethnicity against the HVO. We have already spoken about that at great

14 length. That's the information that we had, although our commanders

15 would not come to terms with that being possible because those men had

16 been with them from the very beginning.

17 Q. So I did understand you correctly. And I also understand from

18 what you said now that this is information that you did pass on to your

19 superiors. Correct?

20 A. That's correct, absolutely.

21 Q. Now, sir, even though this relates to the area south of Mostar,

22 if we look at the area north of Mostar, certainly, the same could very

23 likely have been possible for the north of Mostar, that there may have

24 been a linking up of the ABiH with Muslims within the HVO north of

25 Mostar; isn't that so?

Page 48816

1 A. What does it mean when you say "north of Mostar"? Only in the

2 HVO units from Mostar to Capljina and Stolac, we had a large number of

3 Muslims. North of Mostar is Bijelo Polje, so that also referred to

4 Bijelo Polje. That was a battalion from the 2nd Brigade, the

5 1st Battalion. That's where there was a large number of Muslims.

6 Q. Okay. So if you refer to the area south of Mostar, would that

7 mean that HVO units which were stationed at the North Camp would be

8 included in your concept that there was a recruitment of Muslims within

9 the HVO? And I'm referring then specifically to the units based at the

10 North Camp.

11 A. Absolutely. The 2nd Brigade of the HVO had its headquarters in

12 the North Camp, and the 1st Battalion, Bijelo Polje, the 2nd Battalion,

13 Mostar, and the 5th Battalion, Ilici, were parts of that brigade, the 2nd

14 Brigade. And the 2nd Brigade was headquartered in the North Camp.

15 Q. And, sir, it is correct to say that before the attack on the 30th

16 of June, you had warned your superiors -- you had notified your superiors

17 of the distinct risk that there was as a result of the Muslims within the

18 HVO? You don't deny that?

19 A. I'm not denying that we did provide our superiors with

20 information that there was, indeed, such a possibility. However, our

21 superiors made their own checks, and they talked to the commanders of

22 those brigades, and they arrived at a conclusion that those men were

23 performing their tasks. And the commanders thought that there would be

24 no problems with those men.

25 Q. And they took absolutely no measures to prepare for any

Page 48817

1 eventuality or problem regarding Muslims within the HVO ranks?

2 A. According to what I know, nothing was done. We were told to

3 monitor the situation, and they told us that everything was well in check

4 in the field, that the tasks were being performed jointly, and that

5 positions were being held facing the positions of the VRS, which was our

6 common enemy.

7 Q. Okay, thank you. Now, let's -- we'll come back to this topic at

8 a later stage, but first off let's look at your personal details a little

9 bit more closely.

10 Mr. Jasak, when did you finish your schooling, in what year?

11 A. What schooling do you mean?

12 Q. Before you went to the Technical -- did you say technical college

13 to study Engineering? So your first 12 years of schooling, when would

14 you have finished that?

15 A. I completed the first 12 years of schooling in 1986.

16 Q. Were you subject to compulsory military service after that?

17 A. Yes, I was subject to compulsory military service in

18 1996 [as interpreted] and 1997 [as interpreted].

19 Q. Sorry, 1996 and 1997 or --

20 A. Sorry, 1986 and 1987. I'm sorry.

21 Q. In what area or what part of the armed forces did you do your

22 national service?

23 A. I served in the infantry, the land army infantry, and anti-armour

24 unit.

25 Q. Where were you based?

Page 48818

1 A. I was based in Kosovo, in Djakovica. The commander of the

2 brigade was Dragoljub Ojdanic, and he was headquartered in Prizren.

3 Q. What courses did you do, if any? Or, rather, let me put it this

4 way: Did you obtain any rank while you were doing your military service?

5 A. I left the army as a private first class.

6 Q. So you did no officer training or non-commissioned officer

7 training?

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 Q. Right. Now, sir, when you left the army in 1987, was that

10 towards the end of 1987?

11 A. That was sometime in July or August 1987. And after that, I

12 enrolled at the School of Engineering in Mostar.

13 Q. During the period between the time you left or you completed your

14 compulsory military service, and between the time when -- or let's say

15 before 1992, rather, were you at any stage a member of any political

16 party?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. Which party?

19 A. HDZ.

20 Q. When did you become a member of the HDZ?

21 A. In Mostar.

22 Q. Yes. But when?

23 A. Sometime in 1990, or perhaps the end of 1989 and the beginning of

24 1990.

25 Q. Did you perform any specific function for the HDZ party at that

Page 48819

1 time?

2 A. I was a technical secretary in the party for a while in Mostar.

3 Q. And what does that mean, that you were a technical secretary?

4 A. At the level of the municipal organisation of Mostar, I was

5 tasked with performing the so-called technical duties, which meant that I

6 drafted documents, maintained contacts with other branches, and so on.

7 Q. In this regard, let's have a look at a document.

8 Now, sir, if I can quickly explain to you how the binder in front

9 of you works. You'll see that you have tabs next to -- at the side of

10 the binder, and these tabs, even though the numbers don't follow upon

11 each other like 1, 2, 3, they may follow like this: 400, 1.213, and so

12 forth, so they are in chronological number order. I want you to have a

13 look -- turn to document P11189, and that should be towards the end of

14 your binder. It's the fifth-last document in your binder.

15 Now, you'll see that the first document will be the English

16 translation, and I think you'll be interested in the second page, which

17 is the B/C/S version. And you have that in front of you.

18 Now, sir, if we look at this document, first of all, is that your

19 signature at the bottom?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And just above your signature, it says "Radmilo Jasak," and then

22 "T, Tadjnik" or "Tajnik." What does that mean? That's secretary, but

23 what does the T stand for?

24 A. Technical secretary.

25 Q. Thank you. So this is, indeed, a document -- you were sending

Page 48820

1 out documents like these, but in your own name, during the time you were

2 technical secretary?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And in regard to this document, I see it's marked "Very Urgent,"

5 and it says that:

6 "You are requested to send us copies of the following documents

7 of your municipal assembly as soon as possible."

8 And then it says "1" and "2," but after those two numbers it

9 says:

10 "We need these decisions urgently so that we can complete the

11 constitution and functioning of the Mostar Municipal Assembly in the most

12 efficient way."

13 Sir, you were asked during your evidence-in-chief regarding your

14 experience of municipal assemblies, but being involved with this, did you

15 have insight into the functioning of the Mostar Municipal Assembly?

16 A. I was not involved in the functioning of the Mostar municipality.

17 You can see that this was the collection of paper. One of our MPs, who

18 was a member of the municipality of Mostar, simply wanted to see how

19 communal activities should be organised. And the HDZ from Sarajevo was

20 asked to provide them with information as to how that was done in

21 Sarajevo, and then similar things were probably covered by the paperwork

22 in Mostar. I never participated in the work of the municipality. I was

23 not an MP, and I never took part in the functioning of the municipal

24 bodies.

25 Q. Okay. And did you ever resign from the HDZ?

Page 48821

1 A. I did not resign, I did not submit any resignations. However,

2 since 1991, I have not been involved in any activities by the HDZ. I

3 believe that it was sometime towards the end of 1991 when I stopped

4 functioning as a member of the HDZ.

5 Q. My apologies. Sir, did you remain -- or you were aware of the

6 political goals of the HDZ in 1990/1991?

7 A. Yes, I was aware of them.

8 Q. And you knew also about the establishment of the

9 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

10 A. I did not participate in the establishment of the

11 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna. However, I knew what its goals were.

12 Q. And you, yourself, were also in favour or you supported those

13 goals?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, let's very briefly look at just two

16 documents. P00401, that's the first document in your binder.

17 Now, sir, this document is dated the 22nd of August, 1992, and

18 it's a list by the HVO Mostar Municipal Headquarters, of the headquarter

19 staff, and it shows the units with their commanders. And all that I want

20 to confirm with you is: If you look at number 11, it says: "4th

21 Battalion," and then in the column for commander, it says:

22 "Radmilo Jasak." That's you; correct?

23 A. Yes, that's me, correct.

24 Q. And your deputy --

25 A. This was not an updated document, because by then I was already

Page 48822

1 in the Main Staff. I had been the commander of the 4th Battalion, but up

2 to the 1st of October. I'm sure that the document just wasn't updated.

3 The information was taken over from some previous period.

4 I'm sorry. August, August, yes, that's correct. August, yes.

5 Q. And your deputy was Drago Misic?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Now, sir, only one further document I want to show you about this

8 particular period, and that would be at the second-last document in your

9 binder, 3D00671. Do you have the document?

10 Now, sir, this is not a hugely important issue, but I'd just like

11 to touch upon it. This is a document dated the 8th of July, 1992, and

12 it's a report. And in this report, if we look, and this is in the second

13 page of the English version, right at the end of that page, and

14 unfortunately I don't have the exact reference in the B/C/S, but it's the

15 paragraph which says:

16 "In the 4th Battalion there is a disagreement ..."

17 I'll read it to you:

18 "In the 4th Battalion, there is a disagreement between the

19 commander, Radmilo Jasak, and the chief of battalion, Bevanda, Zoran,

20 which is --"

21 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for

22 interrupting my learned friend, but this is the first time that we're

23 seeing this document in the courtroom, and I can see that it's a document

24 from the 3D Defence. However, the document hasn't got a stamp, it isn't

25 signed, and it doesn't even contain the name of the person who allegedly

Page 48823

1 compiled it or typed it. So we don't know who the document is addressed

2 to, it doesn't have an archive stamp or anything of that kind, so I am

3 questioning the authenticity of the document. And can the Prosecutor

4 provide us with some information about it? But if the witness is looking

5 at this document for the first time, then I think that we need to settle

6 these issues as a matter of priority.

7 Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kruger, could you please

9 tell us where this document comes from.

10 MR. KRUGER: Certainly, Your Honour. And if I may just quickly

11 respond to the objection, Your Honour, that the issues requested by the

12 counsel for Mr. Coric, these are actually matters, Your Honour, which the

13 Prosecution would deal with at length if we were to submit this document.

14 I simply wish to put one single three-line paragraph to the witness to

15 obtain his reaction on this. And on the basis of that, it may not even

16 be necessary to tender the document, Your Honour. That's the sole

17 purpose for tendering this.

18 And as to where it came from, we did, indeed, obtain it from the

19 3D Defence, Your Honour, so that's where the document does come from.

20 If I may proceed?

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was this document admitted by

22 the Chamber or not? Because I don't have a recollection as to whether

23 this document was submitted or not.

24 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, as far as I know, it has not been

25 admitted thus far.

Page 48824

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

2 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Jasak, I simply want to ask you about this one little piece

4 of information:

5 "In the 4th Battalion, there is a disagreement between the

6 commander, Radmilo Jasak, and the chief of battalion, Bevanda, Zoran,

7 which is so visible that they scheduled meetings of the battalion in

8 different places."

9 Did this, indeed, happen? Did you and the chief of your

10 battalion have a dispute, and it was to such -- a dispute to such an

11 extent that you were working at cross-purposes to each other?

12 A. As to what it says here, the dispute, the battalion didn't have a

13 staff at all. And from the document we can see that my deputy was

14 Drago Misic. Now, to convene meetings of any kind, and we mentioned this

15 earlier on, meant that they were able to rally the troops, call a

16 meeting, and then the commander would turn up, tell them what it was all

17 about, and they would move on. That's what the organisation was like.

18 But I don't know what this actually means here. That was the situation

19 on the ground. The units were in the various districts. So in the

20 units, we would have brothers, people who were related, or in squads,

21 whatever, people knew each other, and if they weren't clear on something,

22 then they would discuss the matter and organise themselves that way. So

23 I don't know what this refers to specifically. I don't remember any

24 people coming in for any talks or anything like that.

25 Q. Did you know any Bevanda, Zoran at that stage?

Page 48825

1 A. Yes, I did know him. I knew him then, and I know him to this

2 day.

3 Q. Did you have a dispute with him at that stage?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Right. Let's move on.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me. I would like to be enlightened on

7 the difference between "commander" and "chief." Maybe it's again a

8 linguistic problem, but I cannot understand that there is a commander and

9 someone different who is the chief. Could you explain that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Battalions had commanders, so the

11 number-one man in command of the battalion. And he had his deputy, and

12 that's what it says here in this document, the one that the Prosecutor

13 showed, when we saw that that was, in fact, Drago Misic and not this

14 other man.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm afraid you -- maybe this is a linguistic

16 problem. Here it says "disagreement between the commander and chief of

17 battalion," and I would like you to tell me what is the difference

18 between a commander and the chief. For me, I always thought the

19 commander is the chief.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't clarify this because,

21 Your Honour, a battalion doesn't have a chief. So it's obvious that

22 somebody who wasn't professional compiled this document, if he can say

23 that a battalion has a chief. A battalion had a commander and deputy

24 commander, that's all. So we can see, if we look at the previous

25 document, who those people were.

Page 48826

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

2 MR. KRUGER:

3 Q. Now, sir, from being a battalion commander in 1992, you then

4 went, in October, to the Main Staff, and specifically to the Intelligence

5 Section of the Main Staff. The first thing I'd like to know is: How did

6 it come that you made this move? Did somebody ask you, or how did it

7 come about?

8 A. In October 1992, that's when I moved. And already before that, I

9 got to know Mr. Keza, I met Mr. Keza. And on the basis of an exchange of

10 information, I was invited to work with him. And, on the other hand,

11 there was some pressure, saying that the father of Tihomir Misic would

12 like to come in to the position of battalion commander. So the two

13 things were linked.

14 Q. At that stage, did General Petkovic have anything to do with your

15 transition to the Intelligence Service?

16 A. I don't think General Petkovic had anything to do with that, but

17 that was -- that that was a good proposal or looking at the hierarchy,

18 the chain of the command, the proposal came from VOS, and then the

19 document was signed by the Defence Department. Now, whether

20 General Petkovic had anything to do with that in the meantime, I don't

21 know.

22 Q. And Brigadier Keza, how did he find you or how did he identify

23 you so that he could recruit you?

24 A. As far as Brigadier Keza is concerned, he, along with

25 General Praljak, was one of the rare people who at that time early on in

Page 48827

1 1992, during very heavy fighting, came to the Command of the

2 4th Battalion, came to its headquarters, and that was located under Hum

3 Hill itself. There was shelling on a daily basis around the

4 headquarters, because it was in Tihomir Misic's house, the command and

5 headquarters were in Tihomir Misic's house. And since we held a long

6 line from above Ilic towards Orahovac, Hum, and so on, right up to the

7 Old Bridge, the information which we would gather on the ground was then

8 sent on via certain individuals who were near Brigadier Keza. They

9 conveyed them to him, and he was satisfied with the information, and

10 obviously he thought that I should be one of his men, one of the people

11 who would help him in his future work and who was well acquainted with

12 Mostar.

13 Q. You were in the right place at the right time for this job,

14 basically?

15 A. Yes, you could put it that way.

16 Q. Sir, the fact that you were a member of the HDZ political party

17 and that you adhered to or supported the ideals of a Croatian Community

18 of Herceg-Bosna, that was probably also relevant in your recruitment,

19 wasn't it?

20 A. Absolutely, it had no effect whatsoever, because in 1992, when I

21 was commander of the battalion, at no meeting -- well, I didn't take part

22 in any meeting dealing with the HDZ.

23 Q. I don't quite understand your answer. I think we may have been

24 talking at cross-purposes. My question was: The fact that you supported

25 the ideals of a Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna propounded by your

Page 48828

1 political party, certainly that played a role in your recruitment. If

2 you hadn't supported those goals, you wouldn't have been recruited to

3 that position, would you?

4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I make a slight

5 objection here. I don't mind the question, as such, in principle, but

6 I think that beforehand we should clarify something. Which ideals of

7 Herceg-Bosna are concerned? Because there could be a great deal of

8 misunderstanding between the witness and the Prosecutor along those

9 lines. So the witness can give an affirmative or a negative answer

10 without really understanding what the Prosecutor is getting at.

11 And, secondly, if we're talking about the reactions of other

12 people to the witness's possible support of the ideals of Herceg-Bosna,

13 we should also lay the foundations and say how these other people decided

14 upon his appointments or proposals and knew about any ideals that the

15 witness supported or didn't support.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Defence counsel, please.

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] May I just add one more sentence,

18 because I endorse what my colleague said in objecting.

19 This is a classical school example of speculation, a speculative

20 question which is not in order. There are two conditionals in the final

21 sentence, so it's not a question that the witness can answer, put like

22 that.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kruger, perhaps you can ask

24 your question again in a clearer manner in order to obtain a clear answer

25 to a clear question, which would avoid further objections.

Page 48829

1 MR. KRUGER: Certainly, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Jasak, you have previously told us that as a member of the

3 Croatian -- of the HDZ political party, you were aware of the

4 establishment of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna. You recall

5 that?

6 A. I said that I remember, but that I didn't take part in that. So

7 I wasn't a member of the party at the time, an active party member, and I

8 did not take part in that, but I did know what the goals and objectives

9 of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna were. That meant to preserve

10 the lives of everybody, wherever there were Croats and other people

11 living with them, to become included in the defence against the

12 aggression. That was -- those were the primary objectives, to organise

13 life and defence in the territory inhabited by Croats.

14 Q. And just after that, I then asked you, Did you support those

15 objectives? And if I recall correctly, that you confirmed that you

16 supported those objectives.

17 A. I said that I did support such objectives.

18 Q. Now, sir, when you were recruited as a member of the Intelligence

19 Service by Brigadier Keza, it was probably relevant that you supported

20 those goals of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, because if you

21 hadn't supported those goals, you wouldn't have been an ideal person to

22 work with military intelligence?

23 A. Everybody who was involved in the defence against the aggressor

24 supported the goals of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, but here

25 perhaps it is important to stress that as far as I know, Brigadier Keza

Page 48830

1 was never a member of the Croatian Democratic Union community, and I

2 don't think that that was important for him. For Brigadier Keza, what

3 was important was that he received the right information at the right

4 time, and he considered that I could provide him with that kind of

5 information for the area, that I could be the man to do that. Now, the

6 work of Brigadier Keza was evaluated through his reports, so it was vital

7 for him to have the right information at the right time. And at that

8 point in time, he thought that I was the man to provide this, I was the

9 man for the job, and that's why he put me forward. And through the

10 corresponding procedure, I was appointed to that post.

11 Q. Brigadier Keza, is it correct that he was actually a member of

12 the Croatian Army or he had come from the Croatian Army?

13 A. I don't know that he came from the Croatian Army. Brigadier Keza

14 was born -- well, he was in the Territorial Defence Staff in Ljubuski

15 because he's from Ljubuski. Now, whether he was a volunteer in the

16 Croatian Army and arrived later as a volunteer, I really don't know. All

17 I do know is that he was born in Ljubuski and that he's from the area.

18 Q. Okay. Well, we'll see a bit later whether he was or was not.

19 Let's first look at your position within the Main Staff, and for

20 this I'd first like to refer you to a document. It's two documents

21 earlier to the position where you are now. It's document 2D01352.

22 2D10352 [sic].

23 And, sir, what this is, this is a list of payments for

24 December -- actually, I'd like to refer you to the very last page of the

25 document. It's the last page in both the English as well as the B/C/S

Page 48831

1 version. Actually, the second-last page in the English version, and it's

2 the document dated 17 December 1992. It's from the HVO HZ-HB Main Staff,

3 and it says it's the HVO December 1992 payroll. Do you have that

4 document? It's the last page in the B/C/S version.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. Okay. Now, sir, first off, this is signed by General Petkovic?

7 That's his signature at the bottom?

8 A. That's right, it is his signature at the bottom.

9 Q. So it's correct that he was authorising payment of salaries? He

10 was involved in matters like that as chief of the Main Staff?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Number 11 on the list, it says "Radmilo Jasak, reconnaissance

13 units adviser." That's you; correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And it says your salary was 32.000. Would that have been dinar,

16 or what currency would that have been?

17 A. Well, I don't really know.

18 Q. The point is if we look earlier in the document -- well, first

19 off, on the same document, number 1 is receiving 42.000. But if we look

20 earlier in the document, we see that 32.000 is the lowest amount that is

21 paid to anybody for this month.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. Kruger. If you look at page 3,

23 you'll find Zdravko Kordic, who only gets 22.000.

24 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, I stand corrected.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And while we're at it, on page 4 there is quite

Page 48832

1 a number that only get 30.000, which is not much less, but --

2 MR. KRUGER:

3 Q. Sir, the point that I want to make is that: If we just look at

4 the amounts of salary being paid in a month to you, in comparison to what

5 was being paid to other people, you were actually not a very senior

6 person in this organisation, according to the payroll; is that correct?

7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise to

8 Mr. Kruger, but might I be of assistance?

9 If you look at individual documents, you'll see that these

10 figures do not refer to the salaries in the same month. You have

11 salaries for February 1993, for example, and for November 1992. And if I

12 remember, the inflation was quite high, so it's questionable whether you

13 can evaluate figures according to the different months to be able to

14 establish whose salary was higher and lower.

15 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, in the interests of moving on, I'll

16 pursue the point, but let's look at a different document and let's step

17 off this document.

18 Sir, let's look at the fourth document in your binder, and that's

19 P01683, P01683. This is a document dated the 18th of March, 1993, and

20 it's a stamp list of members of the Main Staff of the HVO of the HZ-HB

21 for accreditation, and it's signed by Milivoj Petkovic.

22 Q. Could you just confirm, is that Mr. -- no, it's not signed by

23 Mr. Petkovic. That looks like a different signature. Do you know whose

24 signature that is?

25 A. Yes. This is Zeljko Akrap's signature.

Page 48833

1 Q. What was his position in the Main Staff?

2 A. Assistant chief of the Main Staff for education, training, and so

3 on.

4 Q. Okay. Now, sir, we'll see in this document that number 7 is the

5 name of Zarko Keza, do you see that, chief of Military Intelligence

6 Service?

7 A. I see that, yes.

8 Q. Now, my question is: The first six names that appear above that,

9 the first one is Mr. Milivoj Petkovic, then Miro Andric, Blaz Andric, and

10 then it goes down to Adem Zulovic, whom you've just referred to. Those

11 first six names, are they the people in Mr. Petkovic's immediate circle

12 as commander of the Main Staff, or chief of the Main Staff, rather, at

13 that time?

14 A. These are all people who were in the Main Staff at that time, but

15 we can see here that Miro Andric's brother is there, and, yes, I can see

16 that the adjutant -- anyway, they were all people working in the

17 Main Staff at the time.

18 Q. Okay. But from number 7 to number 13 or maybe 14, would those be

19 the members of the VOS at that stage, the Intelligence Service?

20 Zarko Keza, Nikola Mikulic, Zeljko Kajic, you, Radmilo Jasak, Dinko

21 Zebic, Ljubo Peric, and Zeljko Mikulic?

22 A. And Zeljko Kordic.

23 Q. Thank you, and so it goes to number 14. Sir, these names, are

24 they mentioned here in order of seniority?

25 A. No. There's one chief, and he issued assignments to all the

Page 48834

1 rest.

2 Q. And you're referring to Mr. Zarko Keza; is that correct?

3 A. That's right, yes, Zarko Keza was the chief, and he issued orders

4 and assignments to everybody else and organised the work of the service.

5 Q. Everybody else on this list, were they then at the same level of

6 seniority? This is referring to the list number 8 to 14, the people

7 working at the VOS.

8 A. Along with Mr. Mikulic, Nikola Mikulic, he was deputy when

9 Zarko Keza wasn't there. All the rest, all us others, were on the same

10 level, on a par.

11 MR. KRUGER: Okay. Your Honour, this may be a time to take the

12 break.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, we'll have a

14 20-minute break.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

18 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Now, sir, before the break we were still looking at your position

20 within the Intelligence Service Section in the Main Staff, and I still

21 want you to look at one or two further things in this regard.

22 We have now established that your superior was Brigadier Keza.

23 The person who acted as his deputy was Mr. Mikulic or Mr. Nikola Mikulic.

24 Now, I have a document which I'm not going to show to you. I'll simply

25 tell you what the document says. It says that Mr. Mikulic had the rank

Page 48835

1 of colonel, or actually it says: "Establishment rank, major colonel."

2 Is this correct? Was he a major or a colonel?

3 A. At the time when this document was issued, he was neither a

4 colonel or a major, as far as I know. He did not have a rank at the

5 time. There were no ranks at all at the time.

6 Q. Did you see him as your superior?

7 A. I considered him a colleague. And when Mr. Keza wasn't there, he

8 signed documents. And if neither of the two were there, then I

9 personally signed the documents.

10 Q. Would you sign the document in the third place or could any of

11 the other people who were at the same level as you within the

12 Intelligence Section also sign if Mr. Keza or Mr. Mikulic were not

13 present?

14 A. There were cases when other people signed their own documents.

15 However, in principle, it was either Mr. Keza or Mr. Mikulic who were

16 there and signed the documents. If the matter was urgent, then the

17 document was signed by whoever drafted it and reported to the chief about

18 that.

19 Q. If you're referring to the chief now, are you referring to the

20 chief of the Main Staff or your chief, Mr. Keza?

21 A. Now we're talking about the VOS department, and we're talking

22 about the chief of that department, of the VOS department.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, have a look at document P0805, P0805. This

24 document is already in evidence. This is a document dated the 9th of

25 July, 1996.

Page 48836

1 My apologies, Your Honour, I've misspoken. It's P0805.

2 Your Honour, I've got it wrong again. P08705. My apologies. I suppose

3 that's what's called a senior moment. 8705.

4 You have the document, sir? This document is dated in Mostar,

5 the 9th of July, 1996, and it's signed by Lieutenant

6 General Zivko Budimir. And the document says:

7 "We submit in the attachment the list of HV officers that were

8 employees of HVO Main Staff. Some of them are still in the HVO, but not

9 in the HVO Main Staff."

10 And if we look at the list, it starts off with

11 "Mr. Slobodan Praljak," "Milivoj Petkovic," and it goes on, and number 14

12 is "Radmilo Jasak." Now, sir, my first question to you is: Were you a

13 member of the Main Staff -- a member of the HV before you joined the

14 Main Staff in 1992, or could you help us understand this document,

15 please?

16 A. I've not seen this document before. I see that it was issued in

17 1996. I joined the Ministry of Defence on the 5th of August, 1994, so

18 for two years I had already been in Zagreb when this document was issued.

19 And when I was in the Main Staff, I was a member of the HVO. When I was

20 with the Main Staff and I was the commander of the 4th Battalion, I was

21 exclusively in the HVO.

22 Q. Okay. So, sir, if this document is meant to say that in 1992 and

23 1993, you were a member of the HV while you were a member of the

24 Main Staff, that's not correct in regard to you? It's an error, in other

25 words?

Page 48837

1 A. 1992 and 1993, at that time I was a member of the Main Staff --

2 or, rather, the HVO and exclusively of the HVO. That's correct.

3 Q. Sir, but while you were a member of the Main Staff in 1992 and

4 1993, you were aware that there were other members of the Main Staff who

5 were, indeed, also -- or who had come from the Croatian Army or the HV,

6 people such as General Praljak and General Petkovic?

7 A. I knew that people arrived as volunteers and joined the HVO.

8 They came as volunteers. They had defended Croatia, and then they

9 volunteered to defend Bosnia-Herzegovina as members of the HVO. When

10 they were in the HVO, they were commanders or chiefs of the HVO.

11 Q. Now, sir, let's turn back to exactly what you were doing in the

12 Main Staff.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, so it's an either/or

14 situation. Either the document we have before us contains an error, in

15 other words, you have been included in the list as an officer of the

16 Croatian Army, when, in fact, you only became such a member in 1994, then

17 there is a mistake, and it is surprising to see that the Croatian Army

18 can make a mistake, but anything can happen in life, or you're not

19 telling the truth. In that case, you are playing with fire, because the

20 Croatian Army, when it established this list, was able to check things

21 out in detail.

22 There's something I've noticed. The person who signed this

23 document, Zivko Budimir, is also on the list at number 52. He is an

24 officer of the Croatian Army, and he held a position. So he's signing a

25 document which I'm sure he's very familiar with. There are some

Page 48838

1 well-known names on this list, Praljak, Petkovic, Akrap,

2 Percy [as interpreted], Tole, Skender, Kapular, and so on and so forth.

3 So it's a mistake, is it? How could such a mistake have been made by

4 these people?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document was

6 issued by the Ministry of Defence or, rather, by the Main Staff of the

7 HVO. And at the top it says: "A list of the members of the Croatian

8 Army who were engaged in the Main Staff of the HVO," which means that at

9 the time when this document was drafted in 1996, I was a member of the

10 Croatian Army. And at the time when I was a member of the Main Staff of

11 the HVO, I was not a member of the Croatian Army. And just to illustrate

12 the point, let me tell you that at that time I did not even have Croatian

13 citizenship.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the transcript, all the

15 people who have the document in B/C/S will have noticed that there's

16 something strange about the document. On page 1, the document stops at

17 number 33. On page 2, it picks up at number 20, and then it follows the

18 order until number 33. Seemingly, page 2 should be a follow-up to

19 another page which we don't have, and page 1 should have the follow-up to

20 it, but it doesn't. So there's something which is very difficult to

21 understand when we look at the B/C/S version. But that's just a detail.

22 Mr. Kruger.

23 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Now, sir, let's turn to what you were precisely doing within the

25 Main Staff as -- or in the Intelligence office. Now, you were based or

Page 48839

1 you had your office in the Main Staff headquarters; that's correct, isn't

2 it?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. In an office adjoining that of Brigadier Keza?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. In your office, did you receive -- or how did you obtain the

7 intelligence that you were analysing or dealing with? Did you go into

8 the field and collect it yourself? Let's ask that. Did you collect the

9 evidence in the field yourself first?

10 A. We received reports from operation zones, and sometimes we did

11 tour the ground to inspect the units and talk to the people. Sometimes

12 Mr. Keza would come to me, to my battalion, and sometimes we would go and

13 made field inspections and draw attention to some things that should not

14 be done.

15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] A correction for the transcript.

16 The page on the screen, line 4, the witness said that they received

17 reports from operation zones and from the CED, which stands for the

18 Centre for Electronic Activity. And that latter source has been omitted

19 from the interpretation, and I believe it should not have been because

20 it's important.

21 MR. KRUGER:

22 Q. Sir, could you just confirm that you also received information

23 from the Centre for Electronic Activity or CED?

24 A. I can confirm that, yes.

25 Q. And those are the intercepts that you received?

Page 48840

1 A. That was information received in the area from the surveillance

2 of radio communications.

3 Q. Sir, did you, yourself, sit with the headphones, monitoring the

4 radio channels, or did you receive that information from somebody else

5 who was doing that?

6 A. We received information from others who did that.

7 Q. So, basically, you would receive information from others, for the

8 most part, either electronic or in the form of reports, and then you

9 would put together a report for your immediate superior, Brigadier Keza;

10 is that correct?

11 A. There were several of us who did that, and through conversations

12 and by observing what had been practiced before, and what we received at

13 that moment, we prepared our reports, segregated by operation zones. And

14 then that was all aggregated into one report which Brigadier Keza signed,

15 and that report was sent to various addressees.

16 Q. And your contribution to the report would only be regarding the

17 sector for which you had responsibility; correct?

18 A. That primarily referred to that sector. However, if I had

19 information about another sector, then we exchanged that information with

20 the colleagues once when we saw each other's reports to check whether the

21 information contained in the report is the initial information or the

22 repetition of something that had happened before.

23 Q. And from Brigadier Keza, who consolidated these contributions

24 from your level, the report went up to General Petkovic; is that correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 48841

1 Q. And from Brigadier Petkovic, would that report or could that

2 report then also go further up to, for instance, Mr. Stojic?

3 A. Such reports, as a rule, were sent to Mr. Stojic and Mr. Petkovic

4 once they were completed at our end. They were sent at the same time.

5 We did not have to send it to the chief of the Main Staff and Defence

6 Department.

7 Q. In the intelligence that you received, I take it that you also

8 received intelligence regarding alleged crimes committed by members of

9 the HVO.

10 A. I don't understand what you mean when you say "crimes." We

11 received information about the enemy. We received that information from

12 our staff on the ground. The task of the Intelligence Service was to

13 observe the activities of the enemy.

14 Q. Did you obtain any information, within that function, that the

15 HVO was committing crimes against the enemy at any stage? Didn't you

16 hear about anything?

17 A. We did not have any information about crimes committed by the

18 HVO. We did not monitor that. We observed the activities of the enemy.

19 Q. You personally -- in your time in the Intelligence Service, did

20 you ever personally -- apart from intelligence that you received, did you

21 become aware of any alleged crimes being committed by members of the HVO

22 in any area?

23 A. No, I did not learn about crimes committed by the HVO in any of

24 the areas.

25 Q. Okay. Now, let's look further at exactly what you were doing or

Page 48842

1 how you were doing this and explore this. Your evidence --

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I have a follow-up

3 question for you.

4 As you know, we are getting closer to the end of this trial.

5 After a number of years, we have a whole swathe of documents and we are

6 beginning to have a better idea. We have a video that shows the capture

7 of ABiH soldiers on the 9th of May. We see the ABiH soldiers who are

8 lined up next to each other, and they are being captured. That is the

9 "enemy," quote/unquote, who is being captured. These soldiers,

10 unfortunately for their sake, are going to disappear, and their bodies

11 will be found later with identification marks; a watch, for instance.

12 My first question: At the time in May, in your position, had you

13 seen this report showing the capture of ABiH soldiers at the headquarters

14 of the 4th Corps?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I saw that report on

16 TV.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you saw that on

18 TV. Now, what I would like to know is: As an analyst, at a later stage

19 did you ask yourself what happened to those soldiers, or did you just

20 move on and you did not really deal with the whereabouts of those

21 soldiers who were part of the ABiH?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't give it much

23 thought. I assumed that they had been captured somewhere and that they

24 were somewhere -- in prison somewhere.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I would like to

Page 48843

1 follow up on a question that was asked by Mr. Kruger, but he did not go

2 into details, and I don't know really why.

3 From what I understood, you were an analyst, and then the report

4 is sent to your superior, Zaka [as interpreted], and then the report is

5 sent to and -- the chief of staff, to the commander of the HVO, and then

6 you are not quite sure where this report goes. You do not know whether

7 it is sent to Mr. Stojic, who is the minister of defence or the head of

8 the Defence Department. You don't know. All you do know is that it's

9 sent to your superior, and then you assume that this report is sent to

10 the head of the Main Staff of the HVO; is that correct?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all our reports,

12 intelligence reports, were sent directly to the chief of the Main Staff

13 and the head of the Defence Department.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I was wondering

15 whether, at your level, you were aware of what was at stake with your

16 work, because we have seen quite a few documents. I could show them to

17 you, but we are not going to look into details. The head of the

18 Main Staff would use some intelligence and to say to the international

19 community or to Pasalic, This is what is happening right now. So what

20 you were doing was actually very important.

21 Were you aware of what was at stake?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we were conscious of

23 the fact that we were doing an important job and that it was of service

24 to the chief and to others so that they could make their decisions, and

25 we did our job to the best of our abilities.

Page 48844

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

2 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Still on this topic, now, you said during your evidence-in-chief

4 you testified on the 19th of January last week, and it's at transcript

5 reference T-48584, at line 5. The question was:

6 "Would your chief normally inform you of any information received

7 elsewhere, at other meetings or in a different way, pertaining to

8 anything that the service was in charge of?"

9 And your response at line 8 was:

10 "He informed us regularly about everything he believed was

11 required for our work."

12 Now, sir, this is correct; you stand by what you said here, isn't

13 it? It's correct, Brigadier Keza informed you about everything he

14 believed was required for your work?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. So is it correct that you were on a "need to know" basis and your

17 boss, Brigadier Keza, didn't necessarily tell you everything that he

18 knew?

19 A. I can't know that. I can't know whether Brigadier Keza knew

20 something more than he told us.

21 Q. Exactly. And also Brigadier --

22 A. However, when we were compiling a report dealing with a certain

23 area, and if he knew the kind of work we were doing, if he had some

24 information on his part about that, then he would convey it to us so that

25 we could incorporate it into our reports.

Page 48845

1 Q. And, sir, you also said Brigadier Keza, he co-operated with SIS

2 at his level, but you didn't co-operate with SIS at your level; that's

3 correct, isn't it?

4 A. That's right. I did not know who the people were in SIS, what

5 positions they occupied, and what their remit was. We didn't have

6 anything to do with that. The chiefs of the services at a higher level

7 would exchange information amongst themselves.

8 Q. And all you would receive or know about those meetings would be

9 whatever Brigadier Keza chose to pass on to you if he believed it was

10 required for your work; correct?

11 A. We knew what Brigadier Keza told us.

12 Q. And so you weren't in the management component of the Main Staff;

13 is that correct?

14 MS. ALABURIC: [No interpretation]

15 MR. KRUGER: I'll elaborate.

16 Q. With management of the Main Staff, I would think that the most

17 senior officers, heads of section in the Main Staff, would probably meet

18 with the chief of the Main Staff, General Petkovic, and that they would

19 hold meetings to decide on strategy and direction and activities, and

20 these would mean meetings which would then filter down to the other

21 members of the Main Staff, the workers. My question is: You weren't a

22 member of that top echelon which met regularly with General Petkovic?

23 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may object at this point, Your Honour. And I

24 hesitate to object, but if you look at the question, it said that "they

25 would probably meet with." It appears that the question calls for

Page 48846

1 speculation. Now, if the gentleman doesn't know -- if my learned friend

2 doesn't know, he might want to ask an open-ended question to get the

3 information as a predicate, but it seems to me that he's asking the

4 gentleman to guess. This is the first time I hear of the word

5 "management" in the military context. Now, so he's asking the witness to

6 guess. If he knows for sure, he's to say that they were meeting, and

7 give us an example and what have you. Otherwise, I would suggest that he

8 rephrase the question or ask the gentleman an open-ended question how

9 things were done, and then he could go on and explain.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, without speculating,

11 please listen carefully.

12 Earlier on, the Prosecutor asked you whether you had been aware

13 of crimes that had been committed by the HVO, and your answer was, No.

14 Very well. Then the Prosecutor moves on to something else, and he's

15 asking you whether there were some contacts between the SIS and your

16 chief, Zerka [as interpreted], and you're saying, Yes. The third line of

17 questioning, because everything makes sense, the Prosecutor is putting to

18 you that sometimes your chief would give you some information, but you

19 did not know whether the items of information that were given to you were

20 complete or not. And I understood your answer perfectly. So I'm going

21 to give you a very clear example.

22 We received some evidence stating that the SIS in Prozor issued a

23 lot of reports on acts committed by police officers from the HVO; theft,

24 violence, and so on and so forth. I'm not going to go into details.

25 This is an SIS document, and I assume that this document from the Prozor

Page 48847

1 SIS was sent the hierarchal way to higher levels, and the chief at the

2 same level as yours, so within the SIS, may have said to your chief, We

3 have learnt that in Prozor, some police officers are behaving in such a

4 way that would be a cause of concern, and your chief could have said

5 something to you or maybe said nothing to you. So, you see, everything

6 really holds together without really speculating at all.

7 So what I would like to know is whether at some stage your chief

8 said, I learned from the SIS that in Prozor there were some problems.

9 So, you see, this is a very clear example and a very clear question that

10 I'm putting to you now.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the chief didn't

12 convey that information to me, perhaps because it was outside the remit

13 of my work, my primary work. Perhaps it went beyond that scope.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, or perhaps the chief

15 working at the SIS did not tell him of anything. That could be possible

16 as well?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, possible, yes.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Mr. Kruger, please proceed.

20 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. Jasak, return to the previous point. Your chief, did he meet

22 with General Petkovic at times when you were not present?

23 A. The chief of the Main Staff and the chief of VOS could meet

24 whenever they felt the inclination to do so because there was just a door

25 between the two offices. They didn't have to go into the hallway at all.

Page 48848

1 Q. But my question is: You didn't attend each and every meeting

2 between them, you weren't privy to every discussion they had,

3 General Petkovic and Brigadier Keza?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. Did you attend meetings that Brigadier -- General Petkovic held

6 with other heads of sections in the Main Staff on a regular basis?

7 A. I don't know that at the level of the Main Staff they had regular

8 meetings or that there were any premises where the meetings took place.

9 I don't have any information about that happening in the Main Staff, so I

10 can't know when General Petkovic might have called some of the heads of

11 the other departments to a meeting. I know that I would talk to

12 General Petkovic myself quite a few times at the Main Staff.

13 Q. On the 19th of January, and this is transcript reference 48579,

14 line 11, you said:

15 "I learned this from the chief of the Military Intelligence

16 Service, who told me that he had been informed about this by

17 General Petkovic."

18 So the whole point that I'm making, sir, is that you weren't at

19 such a level that you were the confidant of General Petkovic in the

20 Main Staff during your time there; isn't that correct?

21 A. I don't really understand the question. What do you mean

22 "confidant," the confidant of? As I say, I talked to General Petkovic a

23 number of times, and I think the talks were sincere, frank.

24 Q. General Petkovic didn't tell you each and every single bit of

25 information that he was privy to; isn't that correct?

Page 48849

1 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really do think I

2 have to object to that kind of question because it is truly asking the

3 witness to speculate. How can the witness know whether General Petkovic

4 told him every single bit of information and so on? I think this type of

5 question is quite out of order.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kruger, please be cautious,

7 because there will be objections and we're going to waste time. And I

8 draw the conclusion that the trial is not resting on this and that

9 everyone is wasting one's time, so please be very clear, very precise,

10 ask him whether he was meeting General Petkovic. And, if so, what were

11 they talking about; were they talking about the weather or about work?

12 And he's going to say we were talking about work, and then you proceed.

13 I would not have this problem, because I know in advance how to avoid

14 those sorts of issues and objections.

15 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll do my best.

16 Q. Sir, my point to you is that: At your level, you only had a

17 partial picture of what was going on with regard to the HVO actions in

18 Herceg-Bosna?

19 A. I was in the Main Staff, at the highest level. There is no

20 higher level than the Main Staff. In the Military Intelligence Service,

21 I took part in the drafting of reports. We would receive information

22 from the ground, what was going on behind enemy lines, and we would send

23 out these reports to the highest level, the chief of the Main Staff and

24 the head of the Defence Department. There was no higher level than that,

25 so I don't know in what context to understand your question.

Page 48850

1 Q. Sir, you didn't have access to each and every bit of intelligence

2 because that's how intelligence services work. Intelligence is kept

3 compartmentalised, isn't that so, to protect it?

4 A. I did have access to information from all the operations zones

5 because my colleagues created these reports and information, and I mostly

6 dealt with the Mostar area, which means that I was informed of the

7 reports, once they were completed, and everything that came in, all the

8 documents that came in to be processed for South-East Herzegovina. They

9 all arrived, and all we had was -- to do was to reduce it and summarise

10 it into these reports. So information linked to the enemy did come in

11 and were collected in one place. It was all in one room. We were all in

12 one room, sitting 'round a round table, if you will, except for the head

13 of VOS, Keza, who had his own office. Otherwise, all the rest of us were

14 in the same office.

15 Q. Sir, but by your own admission, you don't know what information

16 was available from SIS, so you simply did not have a complete picture of

17 things, of events. You were working only on the intelligence that you

18 were lucky enough to be made aware of. You didn't have a complete

19 picture.

20 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do apologise, but

21 I have to object again. What does that mean, a complete picture? Nobody

22 had a complete picture anywhere on this earth, nor will the Judges have a

23 complete picture of everything.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, your objection is

25 irrelevant and the question is what it is, and the witness is about to

Page 48851

1 answer and you are taking the floor. I think that you are doing this for

2 nothing. This is very simple. The person is -- well, please wait. This

3 person is working in military intelligence. The Prosecutor wants to know

4 whether military intelligence was coupled with intelligence coming from

5 the SIS, in order for the chief of the Main Staff to be aware of

6 everything that was going on. This is the case for the Prosecution. And

7 he says that he knew about everything that was going on on the military

8 side, so why do you want to take the floor here? What are you doing

9 here, except wasting time?

10 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has

11 already answered the question about information from SIS, and this is the

12 sixth question we're hearing on the same topic and you're allowing it.

13 Now, what I want to react to is the following sentence:

14 "You were working only on the intelligence that you were lucky

15 enough to be made aware of."

16 And I think that that is quite improper because the question

17 contains several sentences. And if we want a yes-or-no answer from this

18 witness, what part of the sentence will he be answering?

19 Now, if you think that questions of this kind are proper, then I

20 apologise for intervening.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you wanted to answer.

22 Please answer, because you were interrupted by counsel. You were about

23 to say something. What were you about to say?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was getting ready to say

25 that the information that was coming in from SIS sometimes, SIS did not

Page 48852

1 deal with the enemy. Very few pieces of information were coming in, and

2 we would get it from our chief. But what should have been the primary

3 matter was that we received them from the CED and the operations zone,

4 and we based our reports on that. They were what they were, in

5 conformity with our abilities and the information that we were able to

6 come by.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, if I understand

8 correctly, you said that information coming from the SIS did not have

9 necessarily to do with the enemy, because as far as the enemy was

10 concerned, you were the one in charge of gathering information and

11 intelligence, so you had the first line of intelligence for the ABiH and

12 not the SIS. Is that correct?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour, because

14 the SIS could arrive at some information quite by chance, and then that

15 information would be conveyed further. But the prime task of VOS was to

16 deal with the enemy, not SIS's.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Sir, you're not in a position to tell this Chamber whom

20 General Petkovic consulted in his decision-making processes; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Your Honours, as far as General Petkovic is concerned, when it

23 came to the enemy, then it was exclusively the VOS, whereas for all the

24 rest, he had other people to deal with other affairs. That's what I can

25 say.

Page 48853

1 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. And all those other people who advised him, you weren't privy to

3 their -- to what they were advising specifically to General Petkovic,

4 were you; not in all instances, at least?

5 A. Well, nobody can know everything. Everybody knows which piece of

6 the pie he's in charge of, and you need to gain a complete picture with

7 all the information put together.

8 Q. Exactly, sir, and that's the whole point, that you only knew your

9 little bit of the pie. And all your testimony that you've been giving so

10 far is based on only that little piece of the pie that you were aware of;

11 isn't that correct?

12 A. What I've said so far I said as a worker of VOS and as a worker

13 of the Main Staff, because I served in the Main Staff, to which all the

14 information came, so I was -- I could have been informed about those

15 matters too. So I'm speaking also as an inhabitant of the town of

16 Mostar, where I lived at the time.

17 Q. Sir, but still the question remains, and that the testimony that

18 you gave last week, the opinions that you expressed on various matters,

19 is based principally on that little bit of the pie that you had knowledge

20 about. Isn't that so?

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, I'm going to object to the

22 tendentious phrase "little bit of the pie." How big the bit of the pie

23 is, isn't that a matter for Your Honours' judgement, based on his

24 evidence? Of course, Mr. Kruger --

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I think you're quite right, absolutely right. I

Page 48854

1 was already suggesting that you cut out the word "small."

2 MR. STEWART: Yes. Beyond that, there is a question as to

3 whether it's just not blindingly obvious to keep saying to a witness, You

4 could only tell us what you knew on the basis of what you knew. But if

5 Mr. Kruger wants to spend time on that, it's his decision.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kruger, you know that

7 Judges are ruling the way the questionings are being run. I believe that

8 you have a case, namely, that this witness is not aware of everything.

9 And the witness states that military intelligence was dealt with by

10 himself, by his colleagues, by his chief, and by Petkovic, and so he

11 doesn't agree with your case. If you have any evidence to the contrary,

12 you have to show this evidence. Otherwise, it's going to last for a long

13 time. You're going to say, Yes, and he's going to say, No, or

14 vice versa, so he's going to say, They were in charge of military

15 intelligence, and only them; there was nobody else in charge of military

16 intelligence. So if you have any other evidence that would go against

17 what he's saying, then it's for you to provide those. Otherwise, it

18 could last for hours.

19 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll finish with this. I

20 have only one question regarding this.

21 Q. Sir, are you willing to at least agree with me that if I were to

22 show you other evidence which you were not privy to, that would change

23 some of the views that you expressed last week? Isn't that so?

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm going to object to that as well.

25 He can't -- Mr. Kruger can't possibly make that suggestion until and

Page 48855

1 unless he does put such evidence. He can't ask the witness to say, in

2 advance, What you show me, I don't know what it is, will change my mind.

3 That's up to Mr. Kruger to demonstrate it, if he can.

4 MR. KRUGER: I'll withdraw the question, Your Honour. Let's move

5 on.

6 Q. Sir, the Military Intelligence Service, VOS, is it correct that

7 it did not only pass information on to General Petkovic and Mr. Stojic,

8 but it also made recommendations at times?

9 A. Correct, there were some recommendations as well.

10 Q. Let's have a look at Exhibit P02760, 2760.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kruger, in which binder is

12 it?

13 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, it's still binder 1, still the first

14 binder.

15 Q. Now, sir, this document is a document from 14 June 1993. It's an

16 information proposal, and it's from the head of the HVO Main Staff, VOS,

17 Zarko Keza. And if we could just confirm, is that Brigadier Keza's

18 signature at the bottom?

19 A. Yes, this is Brigadier Keza's signature.

20 Q. Okay. Now, on 14 June, he says, and this is the first paragraph:

21 "A number of sources have informed us that the Muslim army is

22 launching all-out attacks on the territories of Central Bosnia and

23 Northern Herzegovina, committing crimes, and more serious -- much more

24 serious than those committed by the Serbs."

25 My first question is: You were informed about crimes committed

Page 48856

1 by the ABiH or the Muslims and by the Serbs, but you didn't receive

2 information about crimes -- any crimes committed by the HVO members? I

3 just need to get that straight.

4 A. I did not learn of any HVO crimes. I did not have an occasion to

5 see any.

6 Q. Okay. Now, let's look at what you propose or what is being

7 proposed by the VOS. And number 1 says that:

8 "The term 'BH Army' be replaced in official usage with 'the

9 Muslim forces.'"

10 Now, were you aware of such a proposal being made?

11 A. Yes, I was aware of that.

12 Q. Can you perhaps tell the Chamber what was behind this proposal?

13 A. Yes, I can. What was behind this proposal was the wish to

14 demonstrate clearly, when it comes to reporting, that journalists should

15 not try and create a wrong image in the general public about the BiH Army

16 as being composed of multiple ethnicities and that it defended Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina. At that time, it was exclusively composed of Muslims, and

18 at that time it attacked the areas under the control of the HVO. An

19 impression was being created that when one said the BiH Army, that that

20 implied the entire territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That's the

21 impression that was created by the media for the general public.

22 Q. Okay. Now, number 2 says:

23 "The real and complete mobilisation of human and material

24 resources be conducted in the HZ-HB or Croatian Community of

25 Herceg-Bosna."

Page 48857

1 Now, sir, from your previous answer, can I take it that this

2 complete mobilisation of resources, human resources, would also relate to

3 the mobilisation of Muslims within the HZ-HB or would this relate only to

4 Croats?

5 A. This referred to human resources. However, when it came to the

6 territories where conflicts were underway already, those units were

7 mobilised of all the men that were available in Mostar and Konjic, and

8 this refers more to the areas where there were no war activities going

9 on, such as municipalities which were not affected by the war.

10 Q. But, sir, from the second bullet, do you mean that this, indeed,

11 means that potentially Muslim members of the HVO can also be mobilised

12 against the Muslim forces? Is this what's contemplated?

13 A. Absolutely that was not the case. This refers to the areas of

14 Grude, Siroki Brijeg, and other municipalities that did not have any

15 Muslim population at all; Posusje and some others of the kind which were

16 not directly affected by the war. That's why people there could not be

17 engaged to help with the defence of the areas that were affected by the

18 war. Those areas that were affected by the war, there was nobody to

19 mobilise. Those who had not fled were already involved and were already

20 members of the units that were fighting.

21 Q. Paragraph 3 says:

22 "Muslim men of military age be forbidden to enter or leave the

23 Republic of Croatia."

24 So what about a Muslim member of the HVO who wants to return from

25 Croatia to his unit? So according to this order, he would be

Page 48858

1 forbidden -- or this proposal, he would be forbidden from returning; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Bullet point 3 was drafted, and maybe here it's not really clear

4 as to what it should have meant. What I'm saying is we did have

5 information that Muslim fighters or military conscripts, members of the

6 ABiH, who are leaving to spend some time with their families on the

7 Croatian coast. Their families were there, accommodated by the Croatian

8 government and fed by the Croatian authorities. After having spent some

9 time resting there with their wives and children, they returned to the

10 territories of Central Bosnia and North Herzegovina and again engaged in

11 fighting against the HVO. So that is the context within which this

12 bullet point 3 was written.

13 Q. Sir, paragraph 4, that says:

14 "All Croatian men of military age in the Republic of Croatia who

15 fled the Republic of BH for whatever reason be detained and handed over

16 to the HVO ..."

17 Weren't you, in the VOS, concerned at all with Muslim members of

18 the HVO or Muslim members liable for service in the HVO who had fled to

19 Croatia; didn't you want those people back as well?

20 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question properly. Maybe

21 I can comment on what is written in here. This was written in a time

22 rife with panic. There was a threat that Croatians would completely

23 disappear from the territories of Central Bosnia and Western or Northern

24 Herzegovina. The situation was dire, and the tone is panicky, because

25 all attempts were made to get hold of soldiers by hook or by crook.

Page 48859

1 Q. Now, sir, we'll come back to these matters a bit later. Let's

2 look at just paragraph 6, finally:

3 "Two elite HV/Croatian Army/or HVO brigades be sent along the

4 main axes, the main axis being Prozor-Scipe village-Parsovici-Fojnica,

5 with the aim to lift the blockade ..."

6 So you were aware in the VOS that HV units, Croatian Army units,

7 could be commandeered or utilised?

8 A. I'm absolutely not aware of that. This was a panicky reaction.

9 Assistance is sought from anybody who might have been able to help. We

10 did not have any information about this, and this is not all within the

11 remit of the VOS. This is not an ordinary situation. The grounds were

12 being lost. The agreements that were signed at the top were not being

13 observed. The hostilities were not stopped, and there was a threat that

14 the Croatian populous would completely disappear from the territories of

15 Central Bosnia and Northern Herzegovina. Then you do whatever if you

16 think that you will be able to get assistance and help.

17 Q. So you're saying that your superior, Brigadier Keza, was prepared

18 to put this in his report, recommending or proposing that Croatian Army

19 units be used, without knowing whether that was possible at all? Is that

20 what you're saying?

21 A. I am saying that he didn't know what could be done, because you

22 see here the HVO or the HV, anybody who can help, there was no

23 information as to what was possible. The appeal is launched to whoever

24 was in a position to help prevent the complete disappearance of Croats

25 from the area.

Page 48860

1 Q. Sir, I have to press you on this. I'm not convinced. This is a

2 proposal by the head of the VOS to the chief of the Main Staff,

3 Brigadier -- General Petkovic, and it says: "We propose that you utilise

4 two elite Croatian Army units."

5 On what basis would he make that recommendation if he didn't know

6 it was possible?

7 A. It doesn't say here "two elite units of the Croatian Army." It

8 says "two elite units of the Croatian Army or the HVO," or anybody else,

9 which means that you are looking for anybody, anybody who could help save

10 those people. There was a huge number of refugees. Villages had been

11 burned down, according to our information. There was at the time,

12 according to our estimate, a very clear possibility that the HVO would be

13 militarily defeated completely in the area.

14 Q. Sir, let's step off this document. Now, before going to binder

15 number 2 --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. Mr. Kruger, you

17 are stepping off this document. I have questions to put to you.

18 This document shows that your service was -- or department was

19 aware of a great number of things, and what is very surprising in this

20 document is to look at recipients 4 and 5. The document is being sent to

21 Zagreb and to Split Operational Zone, Colonel Binazimo [phoen]. When I

22 read this, I realised that the VOS fell within the remit of other

23 entities. Mr. Boban -- had I been in had Mr. Boban's shoes, I would not

24 have been happy about this. So, you know, negotiations were ongoing in

25 Geneva. The question of the armed forces of the ABiH - and the HVO, a

Page 48861

1 component of the ABiH, was being addressed, and this document, it is

2 being asked to change - someone is asking to change the system. In

3 logistical terms, if I had been in Mr. Stojic's shoes I wouldn't have

4 been happy because logistical questions are being addressed. Had I been

5 in the shoes of Mr. Tudjman, I be saying, Well, what is he doing, why is

6 he such a busy-body? The Croats who have fled the Republic of Croatia,

7 why do they have to be handed over? It's interfering in the sovereign

8 affairs of Croatia, and so on and so forth.

9 So what is he doing when he asks for troops -- elite troops of

10 the Croatian Army to be sent in, when the international community was

11 very careful in that regard? Zarko Keza intervenes or interferes in

12 areas which he might not be entitled to. There could be three reasons

13 for this: A, what you said, the situation is disastrous; B, he is in a

14 strong position because nobody can go against him, and he therefore

15 interferes in other areas; or, C, the third reason, on the fourth and

16 fifth -- at paragraph 4 and 5, Zagreb and Split are being informed, and

17 therefore the Croatian Army is entirely involved in all these events, and

18 therefore he refers to the authorities mentioned in paragraph 4 and 5.

19 And, therefore, your services, the VOS, plays a crucial role which goes

20 well beyond mere military intelligence. You are coming up with political

21 suggestions which have to do with questions of sovereignty.

22 You were working for this service. Is this document a good

23 illustration of what you were actually doing, or did your superior go

24 beyond what he was entitled to?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is one of the

Page 48862

1 rare documents which was written in this way, and it really demonstrates

2 the gravity of the situation and the seriousness of the situation.

3 As far as bullet points 4 and 5 are concerned, they talk about

4 the exchange of information that arrived from the territory, and the

5 focus of that was from the previous period, talking about the information

6 received about the Army of Republika Srpska and its movements in the

7 hinterland of Dubrovnik and other areas where it was interesting. So

8 this was an exchange of information. It was not sent to the chief of

9 staff or others. It was sent to the Military Intelligence Service, to

10 the addressees referred to herein.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 Mr. Kruger.

13 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Sir, just finally on this document, to just get it on the record

15 as well, that this proposal was sent to Mr. Boban and Mr. Stojic, in

16 addition to General Petkovic; correct?

17 A. That's correct, the information is correct.

18 Q. Now, sir, let's move to the last document I'm going to show you

19 in this binder. Two documents further on in the binder is document

20 P03622, 3622.

21 Now, I saw from the summary of your evidence, and listening to

22 your testimony, that you made the point that there were many more

23 officers in the operational zones than within the Main Staff. Is that

24 correct, you did make that point?

25 A. I've already spoken about the percentage of men, and I said that

Page 48863

1 the percentage was higher when it came to the officer staff. And that

2 percentage was higher at lower levels, and those people were familiar

3 with the areas. Their activities were exclusively defensive. They

4 defended the territory of their respective municipalities, and that's why

5 we had a problem with mobilisations. We talked about that just a minute

6 ago. Municipalities which were not directly affected by combat

7 activities were reluctant to send their inhabitants to the territories of

8 other municipalities.

9 Q. Now, sir, this document is a document by -- or an order, rather,

10 by General Petkovic. It's dated the 21st of July, 1993. And this is a

11 period when you were still in the VOS at the Main Staff; correct?

12 A. During this period, I was in Sector South [as interpreted], but I

13 was on the VOS list and I was acting as an assistant to Miro Andric.

14 Q. Okay. Now --

15 MS. ALABURIC: [No interpretation]

16 [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to correct the

17 transcript. The witness didn't say "Sector South," he said "Sector

18 North," Sector North.

19 MR. KRUGER: Thank you.

20 Q. Mr. Jasak, could you just confirm that you did, indeed, refer to

21 Sector North? You were attached to Sector North; correct?

22 A. Yes, Sector North. I said "Sector North, with Miro Andric."

23 Q. Now, sir, if we look at this order, and just above the order it

24 says:

25 "To establish the true situation and take concrete measures, I

Page 48864

1 hereby order:"

2 And then number 1:

3 "A Main Staff HVO team (enclosure 1) of 21 July 1993 shall visit

4 all sectors held by our units."

5 Then number 2:

6 "The team shall ascertain the situation in the zones of

7 responsibility, the number of men in units, the number of men on the

8 lines, the level of integration of the defence system, the enforcement of

9 the sectors, the command structure, morale of soldiers, the ability of

10 units to perform tasks, supply levels of all types of ammunition, and

11 deployment of anti-aircraft defence equipment."

12 Paragraph 3 says:

13 "The control team shall issue orders on the spot aimed at

14 rectifying established shortcomings."

15 Now, sir, my question to you. General Petkovic is ordering this,

16 and he's sending a team from the Main Staff to check certain things

17 within the operational zones, and then he's also authorising this team to

18 set certain problems right if they identify them in the areas they're

19 investigating. Is this a fair assessment, as you understand the

20 document?

21 A. Yes, that is a fair assessment. The control teams will issue an

22 order to correct any possible mistakes or shortcomings.

23 Q. And the mistakes would include rectifying, for instance --

24 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour. This -- Mr. Kruger

25 referred -- it's in line 9 in my transcript, anyway, to -- within the

Page 48865

1 operational zones. We observe this document is only dealing with a

2 single operational zone. That's quite clear from the document, itself.

3 MR. KRUGER: My apologies, I did misspeak. This, indeed, refers

4 to only one single operational zone. But the question remains.

5 "The team is sent to rectify matters in that operational zone,

6 which could include the command structure."

7 Q. Now, sir, this appears to me, would you agree, to indicate that

8 General Petkovic is, indeed, the superior of all officers within that

9 operational zone?

10 A. I can see here that General Petkovic was the chief of the

11 Main Staff of the HVO. He established a control team. There is no

12 attachment that would enable me to tell you who was in charge of what.

13 And in bullet point 4, it says:

14 "Daily reports to be submitted to the chief of the General Staff

15 by 2200 hours."

16 This means that he had established a team that would ascertain

17 what the situation was on the ground, because he was not sure that he had

18 been receiving proper information from the ground. And in the heading,

19 you can see that this was received by the OZ South-East Herzegovina. You

20 can see that from the incoming stamp. You can see that this was done to

21 control the defence zone. This order concerned the defence zone and was

22 meant to check whether men were positioned well for defence in order to

23 prevent the implementation of the plan to connect the territory with the

24 sea.

25 JUDGE PRANDLER: I would like to ask a question of qualification,

Page 48866

1 because here, of course, as we heard, Mr. Stewart has raised the issue

2 that it was only relating to a single operational zone.

3 I would like to ask the witness what is his view on the question

4 of a difference between sectors and zones of responsibility. On page 1,

5 the English text of this particular Defence Department order, you will

6 see that on the left hand, under "The HVO Main Staff," et cetera,

7 et cetera, you will find "control of the sectors," and below that one it

8 is written "zones of responsibilities," "zones," in plural, "of

9 responsibility." It is, of course, also true that on the right hand the

10 addressee is always at "JIH South-East Herzegovina Operations Zone." So

11 my question is: If apart from these zones of responsibility, what

12 particular issue was covered by the sectors, that is, the control of the

13 sectors? It is my question to you. Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this order here was

15 written, and where you see where it says "the control of the

16 sector-defence zone," to explain this I would like to say that this was

17 the area of defence that was controlled by one sector. At the time, the

18 defence zone of South-East Herzegovina was under constant attacks by the

19 BH Army after the 30th of June, and that's why the zone was divided into

20 three sectors. There's Sector North, the city of Mostar, and Sector

21 South. This means that the operational zone was divided into three

22 separate sectors, and this order here was written in order to take stock

23 of the real situation in the three zones. There were all constant

24 demands dealing with the lack of soldiers, lack of ammunition, lack of

25 armament, and that's why a team had to be established to see what the

Page 48867

1 situation truly was on the ground.

2 JUDGE PRANDLER: Thank you very much for your reply.

3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I

4 would like to thank Judge Prandler for having drawn our attention to the

5 translation of this document.

6 If we look at the Croatian document, we will see that it speaks

7 about the defence zone, and that's singular "the defence zone," whereas

8 in the English text this has been translated as "the zones of

9 responsibility," in plural, and the word "defence" has been replaced by

10 the word "responsibility." Therefore, we are talking about a

11 mistranslation.

12 Thank you very much, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PRANDLER: Thank you, Ms. Alaburic.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Kruger. I

15 was aware of that.

16 Still on this document, if I understand this document correctly,

17 Mr. Petkovic receives reports, and they are cause of concern because they

18 are contradictory information, and he decides, given that he's the one

19 drafting the document, as you can see that there are initials "MP," so I

20 assume that he is the one drafting those documents, and he can request

21 for a mission to be sent to shed some light. I see that next to the

22 initials of "MP," you have initials "DS," and when you look at a document

23 of the members of the Main Staff in 1992, there is a "Darko Sutalo,"

24 "DS." So I'm wondering whether we're talking about the same person here

25 or whether we're talking about somebody else. But if we are dealing with

Page 48868

1 Darko Sutalo, we have a slight problem because Darko Sutalo was an

2 analyst at the time.

3 So according to you, who is "DS" working at the Main Staff in

4 July?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't remember, but

6 I don't think that Darko Sutalo was there at the time. If this referred

7 to "Sutalo," then "S" would have a diacritic. Here we see "MP/DS" and

8 "DS" is the typist, whereas "MP" is the general wrote this document in

9 his own hand and gave it to the typist to type. So it's really not

10 important who the second person is represented by the second set of

11 initials.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We're not going to

13 waste any more time.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Kruger.

15 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Sir, I'm going to try and finish with this document before the

17 break. I have only about two questions or three questions.

18 Sir, the fact that in this order General Petkovic authorises

19 his -- the people he appoints in this -- in this team to, for instance,

20 change the command structure or rectify the command structure, do you

21 agree that this means that the Main Staff has the authority to go into an

22 operational zone and exert its authority on the place?

23 A. This was a very critical period, riddled with a lot of problems

24 in the OZ South-East Herzegovina. Three sectors were created from one

25 OZ, and here --

Page 48869

1 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but the question is not what the

2 situation was. The question is simply: General Petkovic, in the

3 Main Staff, had that authority to go into an operational zone and take

4 decisions and impose their decisions at that place; is that correct?

5 A. These were defence zones. General Petkovic could issue an order,

6 either written or oral, to the command of the OZ, but this is an order to

7 rectify mistakes. For example, if you see that the position is not in a

8 good place, that in one place you have one soldier, whereas you have four

9 soldiers in another place, and you're expecting an attack, then you can

10 distribute their numbers evenly, and you put two in one place and three

11 in the other place.

12 The most important thing is that at 2200 hours every day, reports

13 ought to have been sent as to what had been done in the field. If

14 something was still not good and not properly done, then General Petkovic

15 still could intervene.

16 Q. Now, sir, from this, and this will be the last point I raise

17 before the break, I put it to you that up until July 1993,

18 General Petkovic was the top soldier in the military pyramid of the HVO.

19 He was at the top, and every other soldier or officer who was beneath him

20 in that pyramid was subordinate to his command; is that correct?

21 A. It's correct that General Petkovic was the chief of the

22 Main Staff and that there was a military pyramid. Every member of the

23 HVO was under the Main Staff but also had his own commanders.

24 Q. And the operational zones and their commanders also formed part

25 of the pyramid underneath General Petkovic; correct?

Page 48870

1 A. [No interpretation]

2 Q. Sorry, the translation hasn't been recorded. Could you just

3 repeat your answer?

4 A. That's correct, OZs were also under the Main Staff.

5 Q. And just a final question. When General Praljak became commander

6 of the Main Staff, he became the top soldier on the pinnacle of that

7 pyramid, and General Petkovic became number 2 beneath him; is that

8 correct? This is July 1993.

9 A. Correct, towards the end of July 1993, yes.

10 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, sir.

11 Your Honour, this may be a time for the break.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Indeed, we're going to have a

13 break of 20 minutes. We'll resume at around 6.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.43 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

17 Colonel, since we are going to finish at 7.00, I don't want to

18 forget to tell you that we will have our next hearing at 9.00 a.m.

19 tomorrow morning.

20 Mr. Kruger, please proceed.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, yes.

22 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Sir, now we're stepping over to binder number 2 now. We finished

24 with binder number 1, and I'd now like to talk to you about Konjic.

25 Thank you, Mr. Usher.

Page 48871

1 I'd now like to talk to you about Konjic, and for the next hour

2 or so that's what we'll be dealing with. But just to orient ourselves

3 that we know exactly what we're talking about and that we have a picture

4 in our minds, could you turn to the map at P09276, 9276.

5 Your Honour, I'm informed that the map number plus 1 is the

6 e-court reference. It's page 10 in e-court, for the Registry, in looking

7 for it. 9276.

8 Sir, if you can look at it on the screen, that's just as good.

9 Sir, this map is already in evidence, and it represents the ethnic

10 composition of the municipalities in Bosnia in 1991, so this is according

11 to the information obtained from the census in 1991. And what I'd like

12 to focus you on is, first of all, the municipality of Konjic. Do you see

13 the municipality of Konjic?

14 A. Yes, I see it.

15 Q. Now, you see that on this map, the colour is grey, and the legend

16 is that this is a municipality with an absolute Muslim majority, greater

17 than 50 per cent. And you knew that, that's correct, isn't it, that

18 Konjic had an absolute Muslim majority, the population?

19 A. I knew that, yes.

20 Q. And you see Jablanica municipality, just to the left of Konjic,

21 and that's the same; that was also a Muslim-majority municipality;

22 correct?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. And then above Prozor, you have Gornji Vakuf, and that's also a

25 Muslim-majority municipality, and that's correct too?

Page 48872

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. In between Gornji Vakuf and Jablanica, that's Prozor, and Prozor

3 had an absolute Croat majority. You agree with that as well?

4 A. I do agree with that, yes.

5 Q. Now, sir, you see the blue line that's drawn on this map, and is

6 it correct that that would represent the boundary of the

7 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna as it was established in 1991?

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, Your Honour, is "boundary" the same

9 as "border"? What exactly, because if I look at this, and we look -- is

10 Brcko, the entire Brcko area is in the Croatian Community of

11 Herceg-Bosna; is that what the gentleman is saying at this point in time

12 and throughout? So what does he mean by "boundary"? I know it says "on

13 a map." Does he mean "border"?

14 MR. KRUGER:

15 Q. Sir, you were aware of the establishment, you said, of the

16 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, I knew that.

18 Q. And looking at this map, is it correct that Gornji Vakuf,

19 Jablanica, and Konjic fell within the area that was being claimed as part

20 of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

21 A. What's drawn here is something that I see for the first time,

22 these borders here or boundaries. But the area, as an area,

23 Herceg-Bosna, as far as I know, I've never seen any borders of any kind.

24 But in the area of Konjic and Gornji Vakuf, there were villages where you

25 had a majority Croat population, so only those villages were considered

Page 48873

1 to be within the organisation of Herceg-Bosna, with respect to the

2 organisation of life and defence and so on. It was not considered that

3 whole municipalities, to the best of my knowledge, were within it and

4 that Herceg-Bosna had some fixed borders.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The good thing about this map

6 is that it's in colour, and it represents the ethnic composition

7 according to the census in 1991. And you pointed out that it was

8 boundaries and not borders. These are the boundaries and not the

9 borders. The only question that I have regarding this map -- I've

10 already seen this map, but every time you look at a map again, you get

11 more information. But I'm rather surprised by Kupres. Kupres seems to

12 be a municipality with a Serb majority, and I'm wondering why it is

13 included in the Croat Community. Do you have any explanation for that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, I do. I'm not

15 looking at this as administrative borders or anything like that, and I've

16 never seen anything like this drawn, but Kupres did have some villages

17 who were -- where the Croatians were in the majority. So this referred

18 only to those villages.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So you said that in

20 the Kupres municipality, there were villages with a Croatian majority.

21 You are probably right. I'm not going to doubt this, but I was wondering

22 why the entire municipality is in red, the entirety of the municipality

23 is in red. Does that mean that they are more than 50 per cent Serbs?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On this -- yes, that's right,

25 Your Honour. This is a map which was obviously drawn according to a 1991

Page 48874

1 population census, and the whole municipality is red because there was a

2 Serb majority of over 50 per cent.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So could you please explain why

4 is it that a municipality with over 50 per cent of Serbs finds itself one

5 fine day in an area or in boundaries -- I'm not talking about borders

6 here; I'm not talking about a state here. But how could a municipality

7 like that find itself in an area which is referred to as Croat?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, within these borders I

9 didn't see this as being a purely Croatian area. There were certain

10 enclaves within these municipalities where we went to help people to

11 organise their defence and life and work in those municipalities, so I've

12 never seen any boundaries like that or borders drawn in this way. It's

13 the Kupres municipality which was included only because it had some

14 Croatian villages which organised themselves.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Jasak, let's look at another map which shows Konjic more

18 closely, and this is P11191, P11191. It would be about the sixth

19 document from the end, sir.

20 Now, sir, this is a map of Konjic municipality, drawn up

21 reflecting the 1991 census outcome. Have you ever seen maps like these

22 before?

23 A. Well, maps like this were drawn once the census in 1991 was

24 completed and when we knew which villages, according to the census, had

25 what population; which were Croatian, and Muslim, and so on.

Page 48875

1 Q. And this -- if you look at the figures at the top, it shows

2 clearly what you've already acknowledged, that Croats were about 11.500,

3 while Muslims were about 23.800, and that's the absolute majority of

4 Muslims. So you don't dispute those numbers?

5 A. I don't dispute the numbers, no.

6 Q. Now, sir, if we look further at the map, you'll see that there

7 are green dots and there are red dots, and then there are also blue dots.

8 The green dots refer to centres where there are Muslim populations, and

9 the red dots refer to centres where there are Croat populations. You

10 understand that?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Okay. Now, if we look at the town of Konjic, we see that it has

13 a big green circle surrounding "Konjic." Do you understand that to mean

14 that the population of Konjic was a majority of Muslim people or Muslim

15 inhabitants?

16 MR. STEWART: I think some care is needed here, because the

17 legend makes it pretty clear what the difference is between solid circles

18 and simply a circle where the circumference only is in colour. It's a

19 distinction between absolute and relative majorities, so we probably

20 ought to proceed with precision on this.

21 MR. KRUGER: Okay. Thank you for that.

22 Q. The point that I would like to make on this is: If we look at

23 the town of Konjic, we see a few red dots in the vicinity, but

24 specifically Zaslivlje, Zabrdje, and Turija. Do you see those three

25 dots, red dots?

Page 48876

1 A. Yes, Zaslivlje, Zabrdje, and Turija. I see that.

2 Q. Sir, these three towns or these three locations, did they

3 eventually become an HVO enclave, or at one stage they became an HVO

4 enclave in 1993?

5 A. Yes. Yes, they did become that.

6 Q. So we'll be dealing with them at a later stage. Let's just find

7 one further place.

8 If we go east from the town of Konjic -- sorry, west from the

9 town of Konjic to the border of Prozor -- Jablanica, sorry, and we go up

10 about a centimetre, we find a little red dot saying "Radesine," do you

11 see that, "Radesine?" Do you see that? It's just above "Ribici." Do

12 you see it?

13 A. I know where Radesine is. It's the village of Radesine.

14 Q. And is it correct that the HVO, during the course of 1993, had

15 established a check-point at that location?

16 A. In the village of Radesine, you had the HVO. Whether it was a

17 check-point I'm not quite sure.

18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, 1993 was, well, an abnormally long

19 year. Perhaps we would invite a bit more precision in what's being put

20 to the witness as to when in 1993.

21 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, we'll get back to this. And the main

22 point is just locating it on the map, so when we do get to it, that

23 everybody at least has an idea of where these locations are.

24 Q. Now, sir, according to your testimony on the meaning of the

25 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, the way I understand your testimony

Page 48877

1 would mean that if we look at the most northern red dot in the

2 municipality of Konjic, that's a little village named "Pozetva." You see

3 that?

4 A. Pozetva.

5 Q. Now, according to your testimony, where you say, No, no, we were

6 only -- or the inclusion in the HZ-HB would only be of villages where

7 Muslims stayed, if I understand you correctly, does that mean that

8 Pozetva would be included in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

9 My apology, I misspoke. I referred to villages where Muslims

10 stayed. I meant villages where Croats stayed. So only villages where

11 Croats stayed would be included or would fall in the area of the

12 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna; is that what you meant, or rather

13 would Pozetva be included?

14 A. It would be included, yes.

15 Q. And if we look at Buscak, which is about two centimetres or three

16 centimetres north of Konjic, that would be included, just to follow

17 through on the argument?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And so according to what you're saying, the HVO would establish

20 its administration over such villages?

21 A. What I said was to establish a defence for those Croats and

22 everybody else who wanted to stand up to the enemy, because there was

23 nothing before that. Not exclusively for the Croats, but for everybody

24 there.

25 Q. Okay. Now, sir, let's move on from there, at least if we have an

Page 48878

1 idea of what we're looking at. And just before I show you a videotape,

2 I'd just like to check with you. Are you aware --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a follow-up question.

4 Colonel, I listened to your answer. You said that the HVO wanted

5 to establish a defence line. And a while ago Mr. Kruger asked you a

6 question about the village of Radesine, about the fact that there was a

7 check-point there, and you said that you didn't know about that. But I

8 am concerned when I see this map and when I compare it with the previous

9 maps. The Konjic municipality in the previous map, one -- it looks as if

10 it should be under Croatian control. On looking at this map, however, in

11 the presence of three different ethnic groups, the Serbs, the Croats and

12 the Muslims, this is quite blinding. How could the ones control the

13 others, in light of the lay of the land and the way these municipalities

14 are intermingled and everything is extremely complicated?

15 When you say that the HVO established defence lines, in your

16 view, does this mean that the HVO wanted to remain in its position,

17 without conquering anything further afield, or in order to solve the

18 situation they needed to conquer those villages indicated in blue on the

19 map or in green, simply because one was Croatian?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these are very

21 specific questions and situations, and it changed from one month to the

22 next. So when we hear 1993 mentioned for the village of Radesine, for

23 example - the Prosecutor mentioned that - I know -- well, I don't know

24 what period he has in mind, but I know that in the village of Radesine,

25 you had Croats who were included and who were part of the HVO, and at the

Page 48879

1 time, if they did anything, they did it for defence purposes.

2 Now, if we look at 1992, for example, then the Croats, together

3 with the Muslims, were holding the lines facing the Army of Republika

4 Srpska. So it depended on what period you had in mind and which year.

5 So here the HVO wanted to protect the Croats, regardless of where they

6 be. That was the primary goal, to organise them against the Army of

7 Republika Srpska and the Serbian foe, the Serbian enemy, so all the

8 people who wanted to join the HVO, the HVO assisted.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you were saying that we

10 need to look at this map one year after the other. This map is the

11 result of the 1991 census, and we may well ask the question, Does this

12 map apply to 1993? Looking at Trusina, if you look at the village of

13 Trusina - much has been said about this village - it is a Croatian

14 village on this map. From what I understood, in April 1993, a few days

15 before Ahmici, this village was conquered by the ABiH and Croats are

16 killed. In that case, the red dot that we see here where Trusina is

17 located then becomes a green dot; yes or no?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it did become green then

19 because the Croats who weren't killed were expelled. But here we're

20 looking at the 1991 census.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly, to

22 make sure that no one makes a mistake, we should look at this map on a

23 daily basis to see who attacks, who takes control, who kills, who

24 occupies what village, who leaves, to have a clear picture.

25 When you worked for the Intelligence Service, how could you

Page 48880

1 follow everything by the minute, as the events were unfolding?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we had a large map, a

3 very large map, and we placed a foil on top of it. And it was on this

4 foil -- well, you could draw on it. You could use the felt-tipped pens

5 to write across this foil, and then you could rub them out, rub the

6 changes out by using alcohol, and make new entries. And that's the kind

7 of map that we kept for the chief of the Main Staff.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would still like to talk

9 about Trusina. When did you hear that there had been killings in

10 Trusina? This is something I discover on the map, and it's the first

11 time I hear about the fact that you were using a map with a trace paper.

12 In Zerka [as interpreted], you changed the positions?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, we did use those

14 maps, and we would draw in the positions when individual places fell

15 mostly, and we learnt about their fall from the refugees coming in and so

16 forth.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Look at the small village of

18 Glace [as interpreted]. It is at the bottom to the right-hand side. It

19 is surrounded by Muslims. I assume that at the time the ABiH must have

20 occupied this village, and what we see in blue here must have turned to

21 green very quickly. Yes or no?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's the village of Cerici.

23 It was -- or Gerici. I don't know whether it's a G or a C. What is

24 this?

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know. Very well,

Page 48881

1 thank you.

2 MR. KRUGER: Thank you.

3 Q. So just in follow-up to one of the responses that you gave

4 earlier regarding -- that the villages with Croat populations, that the

5 intention was to include them with regard to military matters in the

6 HZ-HB, is that how I understood you?

7 A. I didn't understand your question properly, or perhaps it's a

8 question of interpretation or something.

9 MR. STEWART: I'm not sure that in more than one element it quite

10 accurately reflects what the witness said, whether Mr. Kruger is

11 intending to use the witness's specific answer or follow-up in a general

12 sense. But if he's saying that he gets the elements of that question

13 from the witness's previous responses, could we know exactly where?

14 MR. KRUGER: I'll just rephrase the question. I don't have the

15 transcript open in front of me.

16 Q. You recall, sir, that we referred to the two villages of Pozetva

17 and Buscak, and I asked you, Does that mean that these two villages with

18 Croat populations were intended to be included within the area of the

19 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna? Could you just repeat your response

20 to that, that I can just understand it, please?

21 A. You're now talking about territory. The Croatian Community, to

22 the best of my knowledge, did not have a compact territory. It was

23 organised to help all the Croats where they were in the majority in the

24 villages, and everybody else who wanted to become involved in the defence

25 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 48882

1 Q. But what about those two villages? Does that mean that the HVO

2 wanted to establish its administration in those villages over Croats?

3 A. As far as the Croatian Defence Council is concerned for Konjic,

4 the Croatian Defence Council had, in the area sometime in May 1993, one

5 brigade. Now, that brigade was composed of three battalions. That means

6 that the people from these villages were involved in those battalions,

7 included in them, and holding the lines facing the Army of Republika

8 Srpska. So one battalion was in the area of Konjic town, the other one

9 was in Neretvica, and the third one was Jablanica. So it was

10 organised -- the brigade was organised to defend the population against

11 the Army of Republika Srpska, and in the brigade you had taking part

12 people from all these villages.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, unless I'm

14 mistaken - I may make a mistake - you have said that the ABiH and the HVO

15 faced the VRS. When I look at these Serb villages, there are not very

16 many of them, and without knowing those exact locations, in military

17 terms, all these small localities could fall very easily. And in Konjic,

18 the Serb issue was not a major issue because Bijela, Borci, all these

19 small villages, well, weren't facing the artillery or Serb tanks. So

20 this is my question: In this municipality of Konjic, did the Serb pose a

21 major threat to the ABiH and the HVO?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not in the town,

23 itself, because a large portion of the Serbs had left town, those who had

24 joined up with the Army of Republika Srpska. And those who stayed on in

25 the town were considered to be ordinary citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

Page 48883

1 and neither the HVO nor the BH Army thought them to be enemies.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] However, Colonel, in 1993 where

3 were the Serbs or the VRS? Were they in Bradina, were they in Bircani,

4 in Zabrdje, in Bijela? Were there Serb forces there or not? Because you

5 see, Colonel, the problem that we have in this trial -- please wait.

6 Just listen to me first. The Judges do not have all the documents. If

7 we had the documents of the Main Staff of the HVO, as well as of the

8 ABiH, as well as of the Serbs, we would have an overall vision of the

9 situation, but we are given what the Prosecutor and what the Defence is

10 ready to give us. And here I see Serb villages, and I don't really know

11 whether the VRS was there, whether there were Serb tanks there. I don't

12 know. Because you were in charge of military intelligence, so I'm

13 wondering whether the VRS was positioned in those villages. That's the

14 question I'm putting to you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything was to the east of

16 Konjic, including Borci, south of Konjic. That's where the Army of

17 Republika Srpska was.

18 Now, this isn't a topographical map, but I do know the village of

19 Borci. They were not in Bradina, for example, but they were close to

20 Bradina. Bijela, Borci, and further on upwards.

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really do consider

22 the question that you've just raised to be a very important one and that

23 a complete answer to that question cannot be given if you only look at

24 Konjic municipality. So if we take a look at the previous map, which is

25 document P9276, then we'll have a clearer and fuller picture and we'll

Page 48884

1 see what the surrounding parts are around Konjic municipality that was

2 under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska and could be important

3 for the BH Army and the HVO.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay. We'll take that on

5 board.

6 Thank you, Colonel. You said that according to you, the VRS was

7 in Borci, in Zagorici [phoen], so you confirm that they were there. Very

8 well.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bijela, Borci, and further up

10 towards Bradina, but not Bradina itself. Towards Bjelasnica here.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. It's very useful

12 for us to understand.

13 Mr. Kruger, please proceed.

14 MR. KRUGER:

15 Q. Now, sir, just before showing you a video: Apart from -- apart

16 from the HVO military situation, isn't it correct that the HVO civilian

17 authorities weren't interested in the red dots; they wanted to establish

18 control over entire municipalities? What would you say to that if I put

19 that to you?

20 A. I don't know that any attempts were made to establish civilian

21 authority in a municipality where the Croats weren't in a majority, that

22 is to say, that they would have full authority over the entire region or

23 over the whole of the area.

24 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have an

25 objection to the question, but if you allow me to say this: I think that

Page 48885

1 Mr. Kruger has started broaching the subject about civilian authorities,

2 which wasn't raised during the examination-in-chief. He has the right to

3 do so, of course. But according to your guide-lines, in that case

4 Mr. Kruger does not have the right to pose leading questions.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Indeed, Mr. Kruger, according

6 to our guide-lines, when the topic was not touched upon during the

7 examination-in-chief, you have to ask neutral questions and not leading

8 questions.

9 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Sir, could you tell us what the HVO -- what the HVO civilian

11 authorities felt with regard to the establishment of municipalities?

12 A. Generally speaking, as far as the civilian structures are

13 concerned within the HVO, the aim was to organise life and work in the

14 areas which were populated by a Croatian majority.

15 Q. Sir, you were an intelligence analyst, and obviously you said you

16 were receiving intelligence reports regarding the activities of the ABiH.

17 What was the ABiH's view about what the HVO was trying to establish in

18 Konjic?

19 A. Well, I don't know what you mean. What do you mean, what the HVO

20 was trying to establish in Konjic? The HVO in Konjic had a brigade

21 which, together with the BH Army, took part to a large extent in the

22 defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in defending it from the Army of Republika

23 Srpska.

24 Q. Didn't you receive information that the ABiH was concerned that

25 the HVO wanted to take the whole of Konjic municipality?

Page 48886

1 A. Well, nobody had any information to send out of that kind because

2 the Croatian Defence Council in the Konjic area had about 1.250 soldiers,

3 while during that same period the BH Army numbered between 14.000 and

4 17.000 soldiers, depending on which period we look at. Therefore, I

5 don't know which army would be afraid of somebody who is -- who has so

6 much fewer men and not better armed at all.

7 Q. Were you aware that the town of Mostar was being claimed as the

8 capital of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

9 A. What I know is that the Croatian Community saw Mostar as

10 somewhere where the president of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna

11 had his headquarters, without any special rights, any other rights,

12 because, as some people used to say, that was the only town which in that

13 area had traffic lights or a set of traffic lights.

14 Q. Sir, we have a few moments left, and let's change the pace and

15 let's have a look at a video-clip. And I'm referring to Exhibit P02187,

16 and I'm going to show you a clip of a meeting between General Halilovic

17 and General Petkovic. And this was, I think, on the 4th of May, 1993.

18 Now, I'm only going to show you two portions of this and then ask

19 you a few questions which will lead on into our next topic, which we'll

20 probably deal with tomorrow. So the first part I'm going to show you is

21 where General Halilovic is speaking, and this is about five minutes into

22 the tape at 5 minutes, 27 seconds.

23 If we can have a look at the tape.

24 [Video-clip played]

25 MR. KRUGER: Sorry, is there translation?

Page 48887

1 THE INTERPRETER: No sound.

2 MR. KRUGER: Sorry, we have no sound. Could we perhaps start

3 again?

4 [Video-clip played]

5 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, it seems we have a problem, and perhaps

6 it's best to start tomorrow morning with this tape. It seems we have no

7 sound. We can follow the English, but it seems the witness cannot follow

8 the sound then.

9 [Video-clip played]

10 MR. KRUGER: Nothing. Your Honour, if we can terminate the

11 videotape now, and I'll just do a short document.

12 Q. Sir, we'll look at this video again tomorrow. Just perhaps

13 before we do that: Did you recognise any of the footage there? Were you

14 present at that particular meeting or don't you know?

15 A. On the 4th of May, I wasn't present at that meeting, no.

16 Q. Thank you. So let's look very quickly at Exhibit P00195. It's

17 the first document in the binder, and this is a document dated 8 May

18 1992, by Colonel General Ante Roso. And it says:

19 "On the basis of the --"

20 It says:

21 "On the basis of the previous agreements and existing needs, I

22 issue the following order:"

23 And he says:

24 "The only legal military units in the territory of the HZ-HB are

25 units of the HVO. All other military units in the above territory must

Page 48888

1 join the single defence system and recognise the HVO Main Staff as their

2 supreme command."

3 So, sir, if I understand correctly, "military units on the

4 territory of the HZ-HB," that would mean the municipalities which are

5 included in the decree which decreed the existence or into existence the

6 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna. Would you agree?

7 A. No, I wouldn't agree with that, and I don't know who this was

8 sent to at all, and what this is all about, and what the role was of

9 General Roso there.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, Mr. Kruger. I do not see in the

11 original a word like "territory," but I think it's "pastrojbe," but I'm

12 not quite sure. Perhaps if the witness would read number 1, we will hear

13 how the translators would -- the interpreters would render this.

14 MR. KRUGER: Thank you. Indeed, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Jasak, could you please read -- could you please read point

16 number 1 of this record?

17 A. "In the territory of the HZ-HB," "prostor," "the only legal

18 military units are the 'postrojbe' HVO." So it seems to be "postrojbe"

19 and not -- I can't see the end of that word to know which word it is

20 exactly.

21 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but we're coming

22 back to our old topic, and I'd like to ask the interpreters to avoid --

23 I'd like to ask the interpreters to translate the word "prostor" as

24 "area" and not "territory." Thank you.

25 MR. KRUGER: Well, Your Honour, whether it's "area" or

Page 48889

1 "territory," my question does remain.

2 Q. Sir, where would this leave the municipality of Konjic? Would

3 only the HVO be the legal military organisation for the area on the

4 municipality of Konjic?

5 A. I've already said I don't know in what role General Roso was

6 signing this and to whom it is addressed, so we can't see who this is

7 addressed to. And I don't know what it refers to.

8 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, if we can look at one further document

9 before the break, it will be very quick.

10 If you look at the very next document in your binder -- well,

11 first, before turning there, you see that the confidential number or the

12 reference number at the top of your document is "01-331-92." Now turn to

13 the next document, P00200, and this is an order by Tihomir Blaskic on the

14 11th of May, 1992, and we'll see that on the basis of the orders received

15 from the main headquarters, confidential number, and we have the same

16 reference number, "01-331/92" of 8 May:

17 "I order," and then he says:

18 "The only legal military units in the area of Kiseljak

19 municipality are HVO units."

20 Q. So you see that General Roso's order was being implemented. You

21 agree?

22 A. Well, we can see that on the basis of this order, something was

23 written, but I think that at the time nothing existed, except for the

24 HVO, on the territory of Kiseljak, in the area of Kiseljak, because if we

25 were to show the ethnic map like we did for Konjic, then you would be

Page 48890

1 able to see that the Croats are in the majority there and that they

2 organised themselves -- that they were the only ones that were organised

3 and that nothing else existed.

4 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, I wonder if perhaps that is the

5 appropriate time to break.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed you're right. It

7 is 7.00 p.m. We'll have a break of a few hours.

8 Yes, Mr. Stringer.

9 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I'm sorry for the interruption, and

10 greetings to you and the Chamber.

11 Just to follow up on the videotape that we had the technical

12 problems with. The Trial Chamber might recall that we tried and failed

13 about three or four times to run some video-clips in this courtroom early

14 during the cross-examination of General Praljak, and it caused a

15 tremendous amount of inconvenience to the Prosecution which we were only

16 able to fix by delaying the videotapes until after the summer recess when

17 we were back in Courtroom III, where the system seems to work better.

18 We're no going to have that luxury here, and so just because we have the

19 short turnaround and because we're back in the courtroom tomorrow morning

20 at 9.00, I'd just like to express our gratitude for the technical people

21 to make sure that this technical problem is fixed and that the videotapes

22 are working properly first thing in the morning.

23 Thank you.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 As Mr. Stringer said, we are going to resume in this courtroom at

Page 48891

1 9.00, and let's hope that the technicians have solved the problem before

2 then.

3 I wish you a good evening.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of

7 January, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.