1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-95-12-R61
2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA
3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER
5 Tuesday, 2nd April 1996
13 JUDGE GABRIELLE KIRK McDONALD
14 (The Presiding Judge)
15 JUDGE SIDHWA
16 JUDGE VOHRAH
22 THE PROSECUTOR OF THE TRIBUNAL
1 IVICA RAJIC
10 MR. ERIC OSTBERG, MR. ANDREW CAYLEY and MR. GREGORY KEHOE appeared on
11 behalf of the Prosecution
19 2nd April 1996
20 THE REGISTRAR: We have before us case No. IT-95-12-R61, the Prosecutor v.
21 Ivica Rajic.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Good morning. This is a proceeding
23 being conducted pursuant to Rule 61 of the Rules of Procedure and
24 Evidence of this Tribunal. May I have the appearances, please, for
25 the Prosecutor?
1 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, your Honour, I am Eric Ostberg, senior trial attorney;
2 with me I have two counsel, Mr. Gregory Kehoe and Mr. Andrew Cayley.
3 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This morning, as I indicated, it is proceeding
5 pursuant to Rule 61 of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence. We will
6 first receive from the Prosecutor the evidence that was presented to
7 Judge Rustam Sidhwa when he initially confirmed the indictment on
8 August 29th 1995. After that we will receive any additional evidence
9 that the Prosecutor wishes to offer today.
10 We will receive the indictment, of course, that Judge Sidhwa had
11 confirmed on August 29th 1995. Further, we will ask the Prosecutor to
12 advise the Trial Chamber what efforts it has made to accomplish service in
13 this matter.
14 After receiving the evidence this morning and perhaps tomorrow
15 afternoon, the Chamber will adjourn and review the evidence and then
16 make a determination as to whether or not reasonable grounds, that
17 is, prima facie evidence, has been offered with respect to the
18 indictment. We expect that we will issue that decision on or about
19 May 2nd. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Cayley, or who will begin
21 MR. OSTBERG: I will make the opening statements.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very well. You may proceed, thank you.
23 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, we have filed this morning an application, your Honour,
24 requesting that when we arrive to listen to the first witness, we
25 would ask you to grant an order that the names, addresses,
1 whereabouts and other identifying information concerning persons
2 previously identified by pseudonym, witnesses A, B, C, D, E, F and G,
3 should not be disclosed to the media or to the public; that the
4 names, addresses, whereabouts and other identifying information
5 concerning witnesses A to G should be sealed and not included in any
6 of the Tribunal's public records; that the pseudonym witnesses A to G
7 should be used whenever referring to these witnesses in Tribunal
8 proceedings and that any discussions relative to the issue of
9 protective measures for pseudonym witnesses should be heard in closed
11 I will go on reading this motion. On 29th August 1995, the
12 indictment against Ivica Rajic
13 was confirmed by Judge Rustam Sidhwa. Subsequently, on March 6th 1996,
14 upon considering an application by the Prosecutor, Judge Sidhwa ordered
15 pursuant to Rule 61A that the indictment against Ivica Rajic be submitted
16 to the Trial Chamber for proceedings commencing on this day, today. They
17 were rescheduled to 1st April and then scheduled to the
18 date of today.
19 After confirmation of the indictment, statements were taken from
20 survivors of the attack on Stupni Do by Tribunal investigators. At
21 the time their statements were taken those witnesses agreed to
22 testify before the Tribunal. However, for purposes of the
23 proceedings, the Tribunal's investigator who recorded their
24 statements will give oral testimony as to their evidence. It has not
25 been possible to consult with the witness A to witness G prior to
1 these proceedings and there are serious concerns which exist in
3 to their security.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I received that motion this morning and I have
5 reviewed it and conferred with my fellow judges and we have granted
6 that motion.
7 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you. Then, your Honour, I will proceed with my
8 opening statements.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you.
10 MR. OSTBERG: The indictment we submit to the Trial Chamber today deals
11 with the attack by Bosnia Croat soldiers belonging to the Croatian
12 Defence Council, which I will refer to as the HVO, on the Muslim
13 inhabited village of Stupni Do in central Bosnia. A map, your
14 Honour, of central Bosnia will be on the screens before all of you in
15 the courtroom. Sometimes when I refer to places, they can be
16 identified and they will be put up before you so you can see with a
17 little arrow exactly what I am talking about.
18 For this attack Ivica Rajic, then the Commander of the HVO
19 forces in Vares, approximately four kilometres north west of Stupni Do, is
20 charged under Article 7(1) in three separate counts, firstly and secondly,
21 with Grave Breaches of the Geneva Conventions, punishable under Article
22 2(a) and (d) of the Statute as wilful killing and destruction of property;
23 thirdly, with violations of the Laws or Customs of War, punishable under
24 Article 3 of the Statute as a deliberate attack on the civilian population
25 and wanton destruction of the village.
1 Alternatively to each count, Ivica Rajic is charged under
2 Article 7 paragraph 3 of the Statute with failure, in his superior
3 authority, to take the necessary and reasonable measures to prevent the
4 attacks and to punish the perpetrators of it.
5 To put this attack in an understandable context, I will start
6 with giving a short overview of the political and military circumstances
7 in which the attack took place. These circumstances are in more detail
8 set out in the brief I submitted to the Trial Chamber yesterday.
9 It is, of course, impossible in the context of an opening
10 statement in a Rule 61 Hearing to give a full and detailed background to
11 the fact that an armed conflict erupted between the Bosnian Croat and the
12 Muslims in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1993. In more
13 detail again this will be set out in our brief. Some outlining facts,
14 however, might serve the purpose of facilitating the understanding.
15 Bosnia and Herzegovina declared itself independent on 6th March
16 1992. On April 6th 1992, the European Community recognised Bosnia and
17 Herzegovina and the following day it was recognised by the United States
18 and by Croatia. Croatia immediately offered all Bosnian Croats dual
19 citizenship with Croatia.
20 However, prior to the secession of Bosnia and Herzegovina from
21 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, on 18th November 1991, a Croatian
22 community in Bosnia-Herzegovina was established. They called themselves
23 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, thereby emphasising the
24 Herzegovine region which has throughout history been the centre of
25 Croatian nationalism in Bosnia.
1 In the declaration establishing the Croatian Community in
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, specific municipalities in Bosnia were designated as
3 falling within the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, amongst them is
4 Vares, the municipality in which Stupni Do is located. Although
5 predominantly Croatian, this area incorporated towns and villages where
6 Muslims formed a majority.
7 When the war started in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992, the
8 Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Muslims were united in defending Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina against aggression coming from Bosnian Serbs and from the
10 National Yugoslavian Army. They even entered a formal military alliance
11 against the Serbian and Yugoslav forces. However, as early as May 1992
13 were tensions between the Bosnian Croats and the Muslims in that alliance,
14 when the Yugoslavian National Army was officially pulling out of Bosnia
15 and Herzegovina, which happened in May 1992. They were starting to
16 quarrel over the question of who would get the arms and the munitions that
17 this Army had left behind it.
18 Signs of conflict could also be seen later in 1992 on questions
19 relating to arms. When the Vance-Owen plan, which attributed certain
20 areas to respective parties in Bosnia and Herzegovina, was announced the
21 conflict between the former allies escalated. An April 16th 1993, HVO
22 forces attacked the predominantly Muslim village of Ahmici, also in
23 Central Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina and summarily executed scores of unarmed civilians and
25 destroyed the Muslim homes. That attack has resulted in another
1 indictment at this Tribunal.
2 On May 9th 1993, the HVO started an attack in Mostar, that had
3 been made the capital of the self-declared Croation Community of
4 Herceg-Bosna, where thousands of Muslims, men, women and children were
5 arbitrarily arrested by the HVO.
6 The next remarkable event in the armed conflict between the two
7 parties is the attack on Stupni Do, resulting in the indictment which we
8 submit today under Rule 61 of our Statute.
9 Let us now have a look on the maps before you. Stupni Do is
10 located in the municipality of Vares, some four kilometres southeast
11 of the city of Vares.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: One moment, Mr. Ostberg. I am having difficulty
13 pulling the map
14 up, and also has that been marked as an exhibit so that for the
15 record we will know what map you are referring to?
16 MR. OSTBERG: Your Honour, we would formally submit it as an exhibit when
17 we come to one of the witnesses who will tell where he got the map,
18 what kind of map it is, etc. Now I just refer to them as assistance
19 to my oral presentation of the case, if that is OK with you? Thank
20 you, your Honour.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Has it been given a number at this time?
22 MR. OSTBERG: It has been given No. 1, I think. The first map of Croatia
23 has the number Exhibit No. 1. Is that so, Mr. Cayley? 2, and the one
24 before you right now is No. 3.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So even though it is a part of your opening
1 statement, as you refer to the maps, if you can just indicate the
2 number that you have assigned to it for identification purposes, at
4 MR. OSTBERG: Yes.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This is No. 3?
6 MR. OSTBERG: This is No. 3.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Stupni Do is?
8 MR. OSTBERG: Stupni Do, as you can see on that map, is located in the
9 municipality of Vares. You have no trouble to see it?
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is all right, thank you.
11 MR. OSTBERG: Some four kilometres southeast of the city of Vares. It
12 was a small town -- I
13 use the past tense because, as you will see from the photos we are
14 going to present, it is totally devastated and no longer inhabitable
15 -- it was a city or village of about 250 people living in some 60
16 houses. The population consisted mostly of workers having some farm
17 land and cattle. The inhabitants regarded themselves as a part of
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Stupni Do was a typical country village.
19 There were no military installations whatsoever. It is situated
20 somewhat off the main road and several witnesses who were senior army
21 officers of the UNPROFOR -- that is the United Nations protection
22 forces -- have stated that it was of no military interest to any of
23 the parties.
24 In October 1993 the HVO controlled the municipality of Vares and
25 had the military authority in the area through the Bobovac Brigade, with
1 headquarters based three kilometres north east of Vares near Ponikva. Can
2 we also see Ponikva? In October 1993 the Bobovac Brigade came under the
3 command of the Second Operational Group of the HVO, based in Kiseljak
4 approximately 30 kilometres southeast of Vares. The commander of that
5 group in October 1993 was Ivica Rajic, known to previously have been a
6 first class captain of the Yugoslavian Army. On or about 21st October
7 1993, Rajic came to Vares with a large number of troops from the Kiseljak
8 area. The Brigade Commander was removed and Rajic took military control
9 of Vares and the Bobovac Brigade.
10 We will bring two witnesses to the fact that Rajic was the
11 commander, namely, Brigadier-General Ulf Henricsson, Commanding Officer of
12 Nordic Battalion of the United Nations Protection Force, and his
13 interpreter and Assistant, Ruzdi Ekenheim, who will tell you
14 that Rajic acted and represented himself as the officer in command of the
15 HVO in Vares and Stupni Do and specifically as the Brigade Commander.
16 Lieutenant Colonel Jan Koet, a Dutch Legal Officer of the
17 UNPROFOR, will tell you that
18 it was later confirmed by the HVO that Rajic was the commander responsible
19 for troops attacking Stupni Do.
20 Under the command of Ivica Rajic, there were approximately 200
21 HVO soldiers. At about 8 o'clock in the morning of October 23rd 1993,
22 these soldiers attacked the village with unspecified fire and then entered
23 the village, went from house to house, took money and possessions, killed
24 or forced inhabitants to flee and set the houses on fire.
25 One of our investigators, Ehsan Bajwa, which will be our first
1 witness today, will summarise the statements of victims and eyewitnesses.
2 The British Navy photographer, Bernard Pettersen, then serving with the
3 UNPROFOR, will show you pictures taken by him in the village after the
4 attack. All this will show that what happened to Stupni Do was an illegal
5 attack on the civilian population of the village with the sole purpose to
6 terrorise, kill and drive away the Muslim population.
7 These are the facts I present in my opening statement. I will
8 now turn to some legal questions of applicable law pertaining to this
10 Ivica Rajic is charged with responsibility for committing Grave
11 Breaches of the Geneva Conventions contrary to Article 2 of the Statute,
12 and with responsibility for a deliberate attack on the civilian population
13 and wanton destruction of the village of Stupni Do contrary to Article 3
14 of the Statute.
15 The Appeals Chamber of this Tribunal has held in its decision
16 on Defence Motion for the Interlocutory Appeal on Jurisdiction in the case
17 of Prosecutor v. Tadic, I quote, that "Article 2 of the Statute only
18 applies to offences committed within the context of international armed
20 With reference to counts I, II, IV and V, it is the submission
21 of the Prosecution that in October 1993 an international armed conflict
22 existed between Bosnia and Croatia, that HVO forces under the command of
23 Ivica Rajic were under the control of Croatia in this conflict to such an
24 extent that they must be regarded as agents and, in the words of the
25 Appeals Chamber's decision, paragraph 76, "acting not as a rebellious
1 entity but as organs or agents of another State".
2 The Prosecution also submits that the persons and property in
3 the village of Stupni Do were protected within the meaning of the Fourth
4 Geneva Convention on the protection of civilians, vis-a-vis Croatia
5 controlled forces.
6 The fourth Geneva Convention applies during any international
7 armed conflict between two or more of the High Contracting Parties. Both
8 Bosnia and Croatia were parties to all of the Geneva Conventions and they
9 were engaged in an armed conflict with each other when the attack on
10 Stupni Do occurred. Croatia acceded to the four Geneva Conventions and the
11 Two Additional Protocols on May 11th 1992 and Bosnia and Herzegovina
12 acceded to the four Geneva Conventions and the same Two Additional
13 Protocols on 31st December 1992.
14 Protected persons under the Fourth Geneva Convention are, and I
15 quote from Article 4: "Those who, at a given moment and in any manner
16 whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the
17 hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they
18 are not nationals".
19 Real or personal property is protected from destruction in
20 occupied territory except where such destruction is rendered absolutely
21 necessary by military operations. Under Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva
22 Convention, Grave Breaches include wilful killing of protected persons and
23 the extensive destruction of property, not justified by military necessity
24 and carried out unlawfully and wantonly.
25 It is the submission of prosecution that, once Stupni Do was
1 overrun by HVO forces under the command of Ivica Rajic, Stupni Do became
2 occupied territory and Croatia became the occupying power. The
3 inhabitants of Stupni Do were Bosnian nationals and the real and personal
4 property of Stupni Do was Bosnian property. The fact that Ivica Rajic and
5 the HVO forces under his command might also be regarded as Bosnian
6 nationals is legally irrelevant because the degree of control exercised by
7 Croatia over the self-proclaimed Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna and
8 the HVO was so great that this entity must be regarded as agents or
9 extensions of Croatia. The killings of civilians and the destruction of
10 property which occurred in Stupni Do once the village was overrun
11 constitute, therefore, Grave Breaches of the Geneva Conventions.
12 With reference to counts II, III, V and VI, it is the submission
13 of the Prosecutor that the alleged attack against the civilian population
14 and wanton destruction of the village of Stupni Do
15 are prohibited under international customary and conventional law, in both
16 international and internal conflicts. These counts refer to acts which
17 occurred during the attack. In the Decision on Jurisdiction, the Appeals
18 Chamber held, in paragraph 127 that with respect to all armed conflicts,
19 customary law "covers such areas as protection of civilian objects, in
20 particular from indiscriminate attacks, protection of civilian objects, in
21 particular cultural property, protection of all those who do not (or no
22 longer) take active part in hostilities, as well as prohibition of means
23 of warfare conducting hostilities".
24 The arguments on applicable law are set out more fully in the same
25 brief submitted to the Trial Chamber yesterday. Your Honour, with
1 these observations I conclude my opening statement. Thank you.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Anything else, Mr. Cayley? Are you ready to
3 proceed, Mr. Ostberg? Who will offer the evidence?
4 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, we are ready to proceed. We just change places.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In your opening statement you really did not address
6 the nature of a Rule 61 proceeding. There have been three Rule 61
7 proceedings conducted by the Tribunal.
8 MR. OSTBERG: Yes.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I suppose it should be made clear that this does not
10 result in an adjudication of guilt or innocence. What this is is an
11 opportunity for the Prosecutor to present in open court the
12 indictment, as I indicated, that was confirmed by Judge Sidhwa as
13 well as offer additional evidence and, particularly, the testimony of
14 witnesses. At the conclusion of the receipt of that evidence, then
15 it is the responsibility of the judges to make a determination as to
16 whether or not there are reasonable grounds to support the charges
17 that have been made in the indictment against the accused.
18 If, however, the Chamber finds that there are reasonable
19 grounds, that does not mean that there is an adjudication of guilt. The
20 accused has been indicted and, of course, should he choose to surrender
21 to the Tribunal, then he would be entitled to a trial and the trial would
22 be conducted in his presence. So this is not a trial in absentia; it is
23 merely an opportunity for the Prosecutor to present this evidence. If the
24 Tribunal or if the Trial Chamber makes a determination that there are
25 reasonable grounds, that is, a prime facie case has been established, then
1 the Trial Chamber may issue an international arrest warrant for the arrest
2 of the accused. If the Chamber finds that the failure to execute the
3 arrest warrant is because of a lack of co-operation on the part of the
4 State to whom the arrest warrant was directed, then the Trial Chamber may
5 ask the President of the Tribunal to advise the Security Council of this
6 lack of co-operation.
7 So I really wanted to put the proceedings in context and make it
8 very clear what we are doing today.
9 MR. OSTBERG: We are in total agreement, your Honour. But I think I would
10 take the advantage of this opportunity to say now that we are not
11 invoking paragraph (E) of the Rule 61 which tells us: "If the
12 Prosecutor satisfies the Trial Chamber that the failure to effect
13 personal service was due in whole or in part to a failure or refusal
14 of a State to co-operate with the Tribunal in accordance", etc., the
15 Trial Chamber can, as your Honour pointed out, ask the President to
16 notify the Security Council.
17 We are not in the position to satisfy ourselves or your Honours
18 that this was a failure of any special state or any special entity,
19 because we believe that there are political and practical, military
20 or other circumstances who can have made it impossible to execute the
21 warrants. Therefore, I am not trying, in this case, to satisfy the
23 Chamber that it was the failure of any specific State.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Was the arrest warrant sent to Croatia with a
25 request that it be executed?
1 MR. OSTBERG: Yes.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: As I recall, from my review of the file, it was.
3 MR. OSTBERG: To Croatia and to the Federation ---
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
5 MR. OSTBERG: -- but we know all what the factual situation looks like --
6 we do not know for certain where Rajic is for the moment. So we
7 cannot say was he there at that moment
8 or there at this moment and whose responsibility was it at certain
9 times to take actions against him. So, therefore, I have abstained
10 from trying to satisfy you in this respect, your Honour.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you.
12 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: Madam President, your Honours, may we proceed
13 with the oral testimony?
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, you may proceed. I thought that your first
15 witness was the subject of protective measures or am I incorrect
16 about that?
17 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: In fact, that has been decided against. Now he
18 is perfectly happy to appear without any protective measures at all.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Yes, you may proceed. Thank you.
20 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: My learned friend Mr. Ostberg referred in his
21 opening to witnesses that the Prosecution will be calling in order to
22 satisfy the standard of prima facie case under Rule 47 of the rules
23 of procedure. In that respect, the Prosecution is, in essence,
24 calling a snapshot of the evidence that will be called at trial in
25 order to, in fact, satisfy the burden to which you, Madam President,
1 have already referred.
2 Some of the witness statements relating to that oral testimony
3 were contained in the original bundle of evidence that was submitted to
4 Mr. Justice Sidhwa for confirmation of this matter on 29th August and the
5 other evidence is contained in the additional bundle which was filed with
6 the court on March 19th.
7 I understand that those two bundles are to be resubmitted to the
8 court as Exhibits 19 and 20 by the Registry.
9 The first witness -----
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So that 19, I gather, will be the first -----
11 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: 19, your Honour, will be the original bundle of
12 evidence submitted to Mr. Justice Sidhwa and 20 will be the second
13 bundle of evidence submitted. The first witness is Mr. Ehsan Bajwa,
14 a Tribunal investigator, who has taken seven statements from
15 eyewitness survivors from Stupni Do. As has already been agreed in
16 the order that you signed this morning, the witnesses themselves will
17 be referred to as witnesses "A" to "G", although your Honours will
18 find their actual statements in the evidence submitted to you on 29th
19 March. If it is of assistance to you, those witnesses can be found
20 in the paginated bundle from 415 to 495. If, with the court's leave,
21 I could call Mr. Bajwa?
22 MR. EHSAN BAJWA, called.
23 JUDGE SIDHWA: May I make an enquiry, in the first bundle of witnesses,
24 the statements of how many witnesses stand recorded in the first
25 bundle of witnesses which were submitted
1 to me?
2 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: I just need to look at the bundle, your Honour.
3 JUDGE SIDHWA: Please refer to the relevant page in the file.
4 MR. CAYLEY: Of all of the witnesses?
5 JUDGE SIDHWA: Yes, of all the witnesses when the case first came to me.
6 By that time, how many witness statements of how many witnesses had
7 you recorded in all?
8 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: If you go to page 187 of the original bundle, you
9 will see there a list. I think, indeed, there were eight statements
10 recorded by the Tribunal investigators that were submitted with that,
11 although there were, indeed, I think as you remember, your Honour,
12 certain summaries of evidence by the United Nations protection force.
13 JUDGE SIDHWA: Page 187, how many witnesses do you mention, eight?
14 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: Eight. If I can go through the list?
15 JUDGE SIDHWA: Yes, go through the list.
16 MR. CAYLEY: Footnote (7), your Honour, witness statement of Angus Ramsey.
17 JUDGE SIDHWA: Angus Ramsey is one, yes. Next one?
18 MR. CAYLEY: 10 is witness statement Bisnian Mantovic(?). Then if you
19 turn the page, 16B -----
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think that the Motion that you filed has asked
21 that we refer to some witnesses by their initials; is that not so?
22 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: By pseudonyms A to G.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is what I mean. I am sorry.
24 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: That is in the second bundle of evidence.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But there are some statements in the first bundle
1 that have the actual name; is that not so?
2 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: That is correct, but I understand that the
3 exhibits are to be submitted under seal ---
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is true.
5 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: -- to the court.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But you do not want to mention the name of the
7 person, do you?
8 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: No, no, we do not; we will be mentioning them by
9 a pseudonym.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Make sure then that as you read from this page 187
11 you do not mention the name by name of any witness ---
12 MR. CAYLEY: My apologies.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- who is going to be, who has been given a
15 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: Yes, I understand.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If there has been any previous reference, that
17 should be stricken from the record.
18 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: There will be no reference to these witnesses.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Okay.
20 JUDGE SIDHWA: Tell me, in the Application for Motion which you made for
21 keeping secret the identities of certain witnesses, some of the
22 witnesses of the first bundle are also included in that?
23 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: Yes, there is. In fact, if you go, your Honour,
24 to -----
25 JUDGE SIDHWA: Just mention the item numbers then without their names.
1 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: Footnote (10), but indeed that particular
2 statement will not be referred to in Mr. Bajwa's oral testimony.
3 JUDGE SIDHWA: You refer to the itemised number and then do not mention
4 the name; you can say "A" or "B" or just tell us, and then we will
5 make a note of it. You first mentioned
6 No. 7; is he a protected witness?
7 MR. CAYLEY: No, he is not a protected witness.
8 JUDGE SIDHWA: All right, then you come to No. 10.
9 MR. CAYLEY: He is a protected witness.
10 JUDGE SIDHWA: He is a protected witness. Then the next one, Slobodan
11 Tomasic(?) or something, he is one?
12 MR. CAYLEY: No, that is not a protected witness.
13 JUDGE SIDHWA: No, no, is he a witness?
14 MR. CAYLEY: He is not a witness, no.
15 JUDGE SIDHWA: Not a witness, all right. Which is the next one then?
16 MR. CAYLEY: The next witness is 16B, Mr. Hakan Birger.
17 JUDGE SIDHWA: Is he protected?
18 MR. CAYLEY: He is not protected.
19 JUDGE SIDHWA: All right, and which is the next one, No. 19?
20 MR. CAYLEY: No. 19 is not protected.
21 JUDGE SIDHWA: All right No. 20.
22 MR. CAYLEY: No. 20 is not protected.
23 JUDGE SIDHWA: What about 25, is there something?
24 MR. CAYLEY: No. 25 is not protected.
25 JUDGE SIDHWA: He is a witness?
1 MR. CAYLEY: No, not in this case, not called before the court today, no.
2 JUDGE SIDHWA: Not a witness. Then which one next?
3 MR. CAYLEY: 29B not protected.
4 JUDGE SIDHWA: All right. Then 31?
5 MR. CAYLEY: 31 not protected.
6 JUDGE SIDHWA: 33?
7 MR. CAYLEY: Not protected.
8 JUDGE SIDHWA: What else? 38?
9 MR. CAYLEY: 38 is the next statement, again not protected. Then the last
10 one is 44 and again not protected.
11 JUDGE SIDHWA: So you only have one protected witness here?
12 MR. CAYLEY: Sorry.
13 JUDGE SIDHWA: In this list there is only one protected witness?
14 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, that is correct, your Honour.
15 JUDGE SIDHWA: Now please tell me how many are there in all -- 10. There
16 are 10; one of them is protected, am I correct?
17 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, that is correct, your Honour.
18 JUDGE SIDHWA: That is in the first bundle?
19 MR. CAYLEY: That is correct.
20 JUDGE SIDHWA: These other names which you mention here ---
21 MR. CAYLEY: Yes.
22 JUDGE SIDHWA: -- they are not to be treated as witnesses or what are they
23 -- in this list?
24 MR. CAYLEY: In the first bundle?
25 JUDGE SIDHWA: Interviews with so and so -----
1 MR. CAYLEY: That is simply written evidence, your Honour, that is being
2 submitted. May I proceed with the witness, your Honours?
3 JUDGE SIDHWA: The second bundle is page 497 where we have camouflaged
4 their identity and refer to as A, B, C, D, E, F and G?
5 MR. CAYLEY: That is correct, your Honour, yes.
6 JUDGE SIDHWA: All right. Page 497, thank you.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may proceed, Mr. Cayley, thank you.
8 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, your Honour.
9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole
10 truth and nothing but
11 the truth.
12 (The witness was sworn)
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, you may be seated.
14 MR. CAYLEY: Examined by MR. CAYLEY
15 MR. CAYLEY: You are Mr. Ehsan Bajwa; is that correct?
16 A. That is true.
17 Q. I think it is correct, is it not, that you are a superintendent in
18 the Police Force in Pakistan; is that correct?
19 A. That is true.
20 Q. I think you have now been a senior Police Officer in Pakistan for a
21 period of seven years; is
22 that correct?
23 A. That is true.
24 Q. I think you were very kindly given a leave of absence in September
25 '95 by your Police Force so that you could serve as an investigator
1 with this Tribunal; is that correct?
2 A. That is true.
3 Q. I think since your arrival at the Tribunal you have spent a number
4 of months in Bosnia-Herzegovina taking statements from Bosnian
5 nationals; is that correct?
6 A. That is true.
7 Q. I think you have been particularly concerned with interviewing a
8 number of survivors from the attack on the village of Stupni Do; is
9 that correct?
10 A. That is true.
11 Q. I think you conducted in all seven statements; is that correct? You
12 conducted seven interviews with witnesses; is that correct?
13 A. Apart from these seven statements, there are some other statements,
14 but in so far as the ocular account of what happened, these are the
15 seven statements.
16 Q. I think in each case the interview that you conducted with this
17 witness was conducted through a certified interpreter who is fluent
18 in both English and Bosnian; is that correct?
19 A. That is true.
20 Q. I think you addressed your questions to the witness in English?
21 A. That is true.
22 Q. I think the interpreter then interpreted your request to the witness
23 into Bosnian; is that correct?
24 A. That is true.
25 Q. Then I think that the response of the witness was given, of course,
1 back by the witness to you in Bosnian; is that correct?
2 A. That is true.
3 Q. I think then the interpreter interpreted that response for your
4 benefit into English; is that correct?
5 A. That is true.
6 Q. I think, indeed, it is correct that you made a written record of the
7 witness's interpreted response; is that correct?
8 A. That is true.
9 Q. Then I think is it true that the entire English record of that
10 statement was read back to the witness in Bosnian; is that correct?
11 A. That is true.
12 Q. Then I think that any matter with which the witness disagreed or was
13 uncertain was, in fact, corrected by you; is that correct?
14 A. That is true.
15 Q. Then I think only when the witness was fully satisfied with the
16 statement did he or she sign
18 A. That is true.
19 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bajwa. If I could produce Prosecutor's
20 Exhibit 1, if this could be handed to the witness, please? (Handed)
21 Could you just not open it for a moment, Mr. Bajwa? There are a
22 couple of questions I would like to ask you first. I think on 18th
23 March 1996 you interviewed witness A; is that correct?
24 A. That is true.
25 Q. I think you requested of witness A what his function was in the
1 village of Stupni Do. Can you tell the court what he said to you?
2 A. The witness described himself as the President of the local
3 community of Stupni Do and, by virtue of that position in the
4 community of Stupni Do, he recalled that he was responsible for
5 co-ordinating with the municipal authorities of Vares in such public
7 and matters as roads in the village and telephones in the village,
8 electricity in the village, educational facilities and health
9 facilities. So he was a man who was actively involved with the
10 public affairs at the local level.
11 Q. Thank you. I think you showed that witness a photograph, did you
13 A. That is true.
14 Q. I think is that the photograph that is in front of you at the
16 A. That is what it is.
17 Q. That will become Prosecutor's Exhibit 1. We tender that in
18 evidence, please.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that going to appear on our monitor?
20 MR. CAYLEY: Portions of it, your Honour, are going to appear; the entire
21 photograph will not. Mr. Bajwa will refer to the photographic copy
22 next to him and, indeed, a more focused image of that map, of that
23 photograph, will come up in front of you. I think it will become
24 quite clear to you as his testimony unfolds.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So this was a photograph which he used when he was
1 questioning witness A?
2 MR. CAYLEY: Exactly, yes.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you know where this photograph came from? Who
4 took it?
5 MR. CAYLEY: It is, in fact, an aerial photographer. In fact, I will ask
6 the witness. (To the witness): Do you know where this photograph
7 came from?
8 A. My impression of the photograph is that it is an aerial photograph
9 of the village of Stupni Do and, indeed, it was recognised as such by
10 witness A, and in so far as this is the sour of the aerial photograph
11 is concerned, my impression it was lent by a friendly government.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Prosecutor's Exhibit 1 then will be admitted.
13 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. (To the witness): I think the witness assisted
14 you, did he not, by identifying buildings, topographical features and
15 cultural sites within the village from this
16 aerial photograph; is that correct?
17 A. That is true.
18 Q. I think that, indeed, you and he together marked those features on
19 this aerial photograph with yellow markers; is that correct?
20 A. That is true, yellow stickers, paper stickers.
21 Q. Thank you. I think he then made a statement identifying each of
22 those marked features; is
23 that correct?
24 A. That is true.
25 Q. So the statement is, as it were, a key to the aerial photograph?
1 A. Yes, a statement -- all these marks on the photograph are to be read
2 in conjunction with the statement for understanding the significance.
3 Q. If you could in the course of your evidence, Mr. Bajwa, when you are
4 referring to a particular witness whose place of residence has been
5 identified on that photograph, if you could refer to it on the
6 photograph and, indeed, so that the judges can understand from the
7 screens in front of them exactly the area of the village that you are
8 talking about, I would be grateful. Then you.
9 If we could now, please, move to Witness B. I will lead you
10 through a lot of your evidence, but there are some responses where I
11 would like you to respond as you heard it from the witness when you
12 took this statement. Do you understand?
13 A. I understand, yes.
14 Q. Witness B, I believe, was a woman who had lived in Stupni Do for
15 almost 20 years prior to the attack; is that correct?
16 A. That is true, 20 years of her married life.
17 Q. I think she, indeed, had a husband and two children; is that
19 A. That is true.
20 Q. I think she told you, did she not, that there were approximately 60
21 houses in the village, and that prior to the breakdown of the former
22 Yugoslavia Stupni Do had to a degree been an ethnically mixed
23 village; is that correct? If you would explain that in some detail?
24 A. Yes, ethnically mixed to the extent witness recorded that there were
25 about 10 Serb houses in the village, and she had recorded there was
1 no Croat house in the village of Stupni Do as such, except for the
2 fact that there was one woman, a Croat woman, whether was married to
3 a Muslim man in the village, so it was just one mixed family, mixed
4 Croat Muslim family, and apart from that fact there were about 10
5 Serb houses in the village.
6 Q. I think Witness B lived in a hamlet, a smaller area of the village,
7 which was called Pricado;
8 is that correct?
9 A. That is true.
10 Q. Could you identify that on the map in front of you and also on the
11 television screen in front
12 of you?
13 A. Well, I do not have the image here, but on this photograph it is the
14 area which is marked as
15 "A", and that is a hamlet of the whole village of Stupni Do which is
16 at a point which is higher compared with the other portion of the
17 village. So, it was relatively higher portion of the village which
18 was referred to by the residents of Stupni Do as Pricado.
19 Q. I think your Honours you, indeed, have that portion of the aerial
20 photograph on the screens in front of you?
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, we have, thank you.
22 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY (To the witness): Could you say which number her
23 house was on this aerial photograph, the house in which she resided
24 at the time of the attack?
25 A. Yes. It was No. 5. It is No. 5 here. It was a comparatively
1 bigger building in the hamlet.
2 Q. I think the witness explained to you, did she not, that the HVO
3 authorities in Vares gradually began to exert more and more pressure
4 on the village of Stupni Do after they, in
5 fact, ceased power in the town in June 1992. I wondered if you could
6 briefly tell a little bit about what she said to you to the court?
7 A. Witness B recalled that women from Muslim villages like Stupni Do
8 and Strijezevo -- and these are the villages which were within the
9 municipality of Vares, but which were situated at a certain distance
10 from the town of Vares -- those women would go to town to sell their
11 country merchandise, like cheese, butter, eggs, vegetables, and the
12 fact that they were of Muslim ethnicity could be determined by what
13 they were wearing. They could be marked for that. She recalled that
14 the name of the dress was "dimija". She explained that "demija" is
15 like a skirt which comes down, close down, up to the feet and it is a
16 baggy dress. So, whenever there was a Muslim woman from a certain
17 Muslim village, it could easily be detected that she is of Muslim
19 She recalled that such women were harassed while they were on
20 their tours to the town to sell or to buy things, and Croats, there
21 were frequent incidents of them being intimidated, they being told
22 not to come to the town and if they had to come at all they should
23 not be wearing dimijas. That was one aspect of the harassment that
24 she spoke of.
25 Q. I think she also told you, in fact, about a kidnapping that occurred
1 just shortly before the attack on Stupni Do; I wonder if you could
2 tell the court about that?
3 A. Yes, that is as far as the women were concerned, but in so far as
4 men were concerned, the witness recalled that lots of times there
5 were events when men would be taken to a certain building in the town
6 of Vares. They will be asked what their names are. Those names will
7 be taken down. Some of them would be held in detention for a certain
8 number of days and then, after being robbed of whatever possessions
9 they had, they would be let off. At other times, they would be
10 indefinitely detained.
11 She exactly and specifically recalled one such incident about a
12 week before the actual attack that took place on 23rd October 1993.
13 In that incident she recalled that six men, and she was very specific
14 about their names as well, those six men were travelling on a certain
15 unbeaten, far flung country road because they wanted to avoid being
16 arrested, but still they could not avoid it. They were intercepted
17 and they were arrested. They could not escape unless -- the
18 municipality of Vares was taken by the Bosnian Army in November and
19 it is only after the take-over by Bosnian Army that they were able to
21 Q. So let me get this clear; eight days prior to the attack on Stupni
22 Do, a group of men from the village were, as it were, arrested and
23 taken away whilst travelling from Stupni Do to another village
24 nearby; is that correct?
25 A. They were travelling towards Stupni Do from a neighbouring village,
1 and she recalled the name of the village they were travelling from to
2 Stupni Do was Budozelj.
3 Q. Indeed, these same men were not released until sometime after the
4 attack on Stupni Do?
5 A. That is true, and they had their tales of beatings and tortures to
7 Q. Thank you. I think this witness said something to you about the
8 village guard force in Stupni Do. I wondered if you could tell the
9 court a little bit about that?
10 A. The witness recalled that there were about 20 men who composed the
11 local village guard, and she said that none of those men was from
12 outside the village of Stupni Do. All of them were native residents
13 of the village of Stupni Do. Then she recalled that not all of them
14 had uniforms and even those who did not have full uniforms.
15 Q. So these men were not, in fact, regular members of the Bosnian Army?
16 A. She did not put it that way, but she said that they were just local
18 Q. I understand. If we can actually now move forward to the attack
19 itself. At what time and date did the witness say that the attack
20 took place?
21 A. Yes, the witness recalled that it was on 23rd October 1993 at about
22 10 minutes past 8 with the explosion of a shell the attack started.
23 Q. What did the witness do when the attack started?
24 A. The witness recalled that the witness -----
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Was that a.m. or p.m.?
1 MR. CAYLEY: That is a.m., your Honour.
2 THE WITNESS: The Witness B recalled that they were a family of four in
3 their house, No. 5, in the hamlet of Pricado, and this family of four
4 consisted of witness herself, her husband,
5 her 17 year old daughter and 15 year old son. She recalled that that
6 morning, that Saturday morning, on 23rd October, she was taking
7 breakfast with her son and with her daughter, and there was the
8 sudden explosion of a shell. Hearing that explosion, she rushed to
9 the door of the house to see what was happening outside, and she
10 recalled that it was as if the explosion of the shell announced a
11 certain kind of a start, because it was immediately followed with
12 intense firing and, as she was out of her house, she saw that bullets
13 were coming from all sides, from all the different directions.
14 Then she recalled that when she was out of her house she saw
15 this boy who was about 12 years of age, she knew him to be from the
16 village, and he was standing nearby her house tending his cows and
17 standing by the cows. The boy was crying and she asked him to come
18 over and to rush for his life. The boy said that, "What am I going
19 to do with my cows?" She told him just to rush and forget about
20 cows. So, the boy came over and with the arrival of the boy in
21 Witness B's house, the number of people in the house became five, two
22 children of the witness and her husband and with this boy.
23 Q. And the small boy. I think these five people, the family of Witness
24 B and this small boy, waited in the bathroom of the house, they took
25 shelter in their bathroom; is that correct?
1 A. The witness recalled that by the time she came back the windows and
2 the glass panes in the windows were all broken because bullets had
3 struck them. She did not know where to go. So she went to the
4 bathroom with all her family.
5 Q. I think at that stage they were, in fact, joined by others, is that
6 correct, or in fact they went and joined others because the house in
7 which they lived was occupied by two families; is that correct?
8 Could you explain that to the court?
9 A. Yes. It was actually a bigger building, and the witness recalled
10 that the building housed two families and the neighbouring family
11 consisted of three people at that time at the start
12 of the attack. Presently, after spending about an hour inside the
13 bathroom, they went to the neighbouring family and both of them
14 decided that they should go to a shelter.
15 Q. I think, indeed, it is true, is it not, that this group of eight
16 people decided that they would go to a sturdier shelter in another
17 part of the village. In fact, I think they went to Witness
18 A's house; is that correct?
19 A. That is true.
20 Q. Could you tell the court which number marked on the aerial
21 photograph is Witness A's house?
22 A. Yes. It is No. 1.
23 Q. So No. 1, your Honours, on the screens in front of you indicates the
24 house to which this group of eight people fled just after the
25 beginning of the attack.
1 (To the witness): The next part of the witness's testimony is
2 very important, so I would like you to tell it to the court in the
3 words which the witness used to you because I understand at this
4 stage all of these people were, in fact, hiding in the basement of
6 A's house; is that correct?
7 A. That is true.
8 Q. So, if you would tell the court in your own words what happened
10 A. The witness recalled that when they reached the shelter in the
11 basement of witness A's house, she found that there were already 10
12 people who were sheltered in that basement, which of course included
13 witness A's family also. Together with those 10 people and these
14 eight people from house five, they became 18 totally in the numbers.
15 Amongst these 18 people there were three men and five women and the
16 rest were children.
17 So she recalled that the firing continued and after a certain
18 length of time her husband said: "I will go out and see what is happening
19 outside". So the husband went out with another man and came back, and all
20 of these 18 people were hiding in a back room in the basement. She
21 remembered that she heard her husband speaking to the other men and saying
22 that the defences of village have fallen and they are almost on the verge
23 of entering the village.
24 Then she recalled that everybody wanted to flee the basement in
25 which they were hiding, but only three of them were able to escape and the
1 rest were left behind, which means about the number of people that were
2 left behind were 15 in the shelter. Three were able to escape immediately
3 before the arrival of the attacking soldiers in this specific building in
4 the basement.
5 Then she recalled that when those three people had escaped, she
6 with everybody else, she
7 heard sound of footsteps on the stairs that went up to the upper floor of
8 the same building in whose basement they were hiding. Then she recalled
9 that those same sounds, the stomp of boots, started coming from the
10 ceiling and then she recalled that there was lots of sounds of firing from
11 the upper floor, and it was as if all the windows are being broken and
12 everything is being thrown around.
13 Then presently she recalled a certain girl who also lived in the
14 same neighbourhood, and who she thought might have been discovered hiding
15 somewhere, hidden somewhere, by the attacking troops. She remembered that
16 while hidden in that basement she heard the voice of that neighbouring
17 girl who was 17 years of age approximately at that time. The voice was
18 saying: "Come out. They know that you are hiding here".
19 Then she recalled that after that voice two soldiers entered the
20 basement in which these 15 people, after the departure and escape of three
21 people, were hidden. Then she recalled that she was very -- she gave a
22 very vivid account of how those two soldiers looked. She recalled that
23 their eyes were bloodshot and they were wearing camouflage uniforms and
24 she described their faces as "beastly" faces. That is what she literally
1 Then she recalled that all of them were ordered out of where
2 these 15 people were
3 hiding. She recalled that as she was moving out of the basement one of
4 the soldiers grabbed her daughter, her 17-year old daughter, who was also
5 hidden in the same shelter with Witness B. That soldier grabbed the
6 daughter by her arm saying: "Give me your beauty". Then she recalled
7 that saying this, he started dragging the daughter away. She recalled
8 that her daughter was screaming and she was struggling to pull away.
9 That same soldier who was grabbing the daughter by her arm was
10 joined by another soldier who started hitting her daughter with his
11 rifle and kicking her in the back, and each
12 time the daughter tried to pull away the other soldier who was
13 assisting the first soldier would hit her in the back and push her in
14 the back with the butt of his rifle.
15 Q. I think at this point the daughter was taken to a house, was she
16 not, by these two soldiers and then all the remaining people in the
17 basement were driven out; is that correct?
18 A. That is true, and the house that she was taken to, the witness
19 specifically mentioned, was house No. 3.
20 Q. House No. 3. So that is where the daughter of Witness B was taken
21 to by the two
22 soldiers; is that correct?
23 A. That is true.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Cayley, before you
25 continue, we will need to stand in recess for about five minutes, please.
1 (Adjourned for a short time)
2 (11.40 a.m.)
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Cayley, you may continue.
4 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, your Honour. If I could just recap I think on what
5 the witness had just said. I think he had just confirmed to me after
6 I had put the question to him that the two soldiers then in fact
7 drove the remaining civilians hiding in the basement of Witness A
8 out of the basement to the outside.
9 Could you just confirm that, please?
10 A. That is true.
11 Q. I think indeed at this stage the two soldiers who were outside who
12 had taken this group of three men women and children outside
13 separated the men from the women; is that correct?
14 A. That is true.
15 Q. I think at this stage the witness actually gave a description of the
16 uniform that the soldiers were wearing, and I wondered if you could
17 explain the description that she gave, please?
18 A. The witness recalled they were wearing camouflage uniforms and they
19 had white cloth ribbons tied around their uppers arms, and some of
20 them had black bands tied around their heads and a few of them had
21 crosses made of some shiny material hanging from their necks.
22 Q. I understand. Thank you. I think at this stage the soldiers began
23 taking money and jewellery from these people they had brought
24 outside; is that correct?
25 A. That is true.
1 Q. I think the next events that took place, it would be best if you
2 actually explain that in the words of the witness?
3 A. The witness recalled that as one of these soldiers was collecting
4 money and the jewellery that the women were wearing, men were
5 standing aside, they were not standing in the line, and one of the
6 soldiers approached one of those three men that were there, and she
7 recalled that the name of that man was Rifed. That soldier was
8 standing behind Rifed and taking out a knife. He attacked Rifed and
9 brought his arm over his shoulder right in front of his neck, and
10 then pulled the knife across hitting Rifed at his neck just above the
11 collar bone. She recalled that she saw blood streaming out and she
12 saw Rifed bending over his knees, and the same soldier who had
13 attacked Rifed with his knife lashed at the back of Rifed when he was
14 bent over with his rifle and pushed him down on the ground and then
15 he shot him dead.
16 Q. I think there was then ----
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let me interrupt you for one moment, if I may. Is
18 this Witness B?
19 THE WITNESS: That is true, your Honour.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Who told you this?
21 THE WITNESS: That is true.
22 MR. CAYLEY: I think at this stage there was in fact another act of
23 violence, and I wondered if you could tell the court in the words of
24 the witness what happened?
25 A. The witness recalled that after the murder of Rifed there were two
1 men left in this group
2 of 15 that had become 16 with the arrival of the neighbouring girl,
3 and the witness recalled
4 that one of those two men who were left was her husband Maho, as she
5 recalled his name, and she recalled that Maho had already surrendered
6 his money and he was holding out his wallet just to ensure the
7 soldier that he has already given the money. The same soldier who
8 had knifed and slit Rifed and shot him, shot him dead, told him to
9 stretch himself flat
10 on the ground and the witness recalled that her husband stretched
11 himself flat on the ground, his face downwards, and the same soldier
12 shot just below his left shoulder and her husband was dead.
13 Q. What happened to the third man who was in this group?
14 A. The other two stretched themselves flat on the ground for both the
15 men, and the third whose name was Edin and whose mother was also in
16 the group standing in the line, he was also ordered to stretch
17 himself flat on the ground. He stretched himself. He lay flat on the
18 ground and he was also in a similar way shot dead.
19 Q. I think there was indeed one further killing and if you could,
20 again, explain to the court what happened in the words of the
22 A. The witness recalled that they were standing in the line after these
23 three men had been murdered. The woman who was standing first in the
24 line on Witness B's left was by the name of Sida, and she recalled
25 that when these three men were killed Sida wept out, questioning:
1 "Why are you doing this to us? What harm have we done to you?"
2 Witness B recalled that the same soldier struck Sida in her head with
3 his boots. Sida fell down on the ground. She was in a prostrate
4 position and she was crying: "Don't do this to me because my foot is
5 hurting", and the same soldier said: "What do you mean your foot
6 hurts?" Then he put his boots on the head of prostrate Sida and the
7 witness recalled that there was a small tree stump on the ground, and
8 he bent Sida's head on that tree stump and pinning her head in such a
9 way he shot her dead.
10 Q. I think at this stage the remaining people were forced into a shed.
11 Could you point out on the aerial photograph where that shed is
12 located? I think it was actually specifically referred to as a
13 summer kitchen, but it was in the nature of a shed?
14 A. It is No. 2 on this image.
15 Q. I think there was some discussion amongst these HVO soldiers, which
16 indeed the witness told you about, as to whether or not to shoot them
17 or burn them alive; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that is true.
19 Q. I think indeed they were put into this shed, forced into this shed,
20 and that that shed was then locked by an HVO soldier because the key
21 was on the outside of the doors; is that correct?
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. Can you tell the court in the words of the witness what happened
25 A. Witness B distinctly remembered that when she was being taken to
1 what she called "summer house" she saw soldiers throwing two dead
2 bodies. There were three men who had been killed and one woman, and
3 she saw two dead bodies being thrown into a burning house which was
4 at that instance house No. 3 here. That house had meanwhile been put
5 on fire, and in this house she saw two dead bodies being thrown. The
6 witness could not see whose dead bodies those were. So, on her way
7 to seeing these two dead bodies being thrown, she went inside and all
8 of them were locked up in the summer house. She eventually saw lots
9 of smoke through the glass panes of the window of the summer house.
10 There was lots of smoke, and after a while she saw that the glass of
11 the windows was shattering and she also saw flames outside. She
12 concluded that the summer house that they were confined into was on
14 Q. I think then at that point the witness explains to you that she uses
15 an axe to break open the door; is that correct?
16 A. That is true.
17 Q. Then I think the group that was remaining indeed escaped to the
18 surrounding forest around Stupni Do; is that correct?
19 A. That is true.
20 Q. Then I think eventually they made their way to the village of Pajtov
21 Han which is a nearby village to Stupni Do; is that correct?
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. Where I think in fact they were arrested by local HVO; is that
25 A. That is true. There was a checkpoint there and they were stopped
2 Q. I think they were then rescued by members of the local United
3 Nations Protection Force who took them to Breeza; is that correct?
4 A. That is true.
5 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. Your Honours, if we could now move on to the next
7 Now this is Witness C. Are you familiar with Witness C?
8 A. Yes, I have an understanding of who Witness C is.
9 Q. Witness C I understand is the 19 year old son of Witness B; is that
11 A. 19 year old now.
12 Q. At the time of the attack on Stupni Do he would have been 16 years
13 of age?
14 A. That is true.
15 Q. Am I correct in saying that he was with his mother throughout all of
16 the incidents that you have just described?
17 A. That is true.
18 Q. Does he in fact corroborate his mother's account of events?
19 A. He does.
20 Q. We can deal with this witness very quickly, your Honours, because in
21 fact he broadly corroborates what his mother says. So I do not think
22 we need to go into any of the detail again.
23 At what time does this witness believe that the attack
25 A. It was near 8 in the morning.
1 Q. How did he know that the attack had commenced?
2 A. The witness recalled that there were three shell explosions and he
3 went out of the house and he recalled that he saw houses on fire, and
4 that is how he recalled the attacks started.
5 Q. Where does he state that the family immediately went to take
7 A. He recalled that it was the bathroom of the house that they went
9 Q. To whose basement shelter does he state that his family moved to?
10 A. He recalled that it was the house of Witness A which is marked as
11 No. 1 here.
12 Q. I think he confirms, does he not, like his mother that a
13 neighbouring girl comes to the basement with several HVO soldiers, is
14 that correct?
15 A. That is true.
16 Q. I think he gives a description of the badge and the uniform that
17 these soldiers were wearing. Could you describe that to the court?
18 A. Yes. This witness seemed to have had a very clear impression of the
19 shoulder badge that the soldiers were wearing. The witness recalled
20 that they were wearing camouflage uniforms and on the shoulder badge
21 he recalled that there were two rifles vertically placed, and he said
22 that those were M-48 rifles. The background colour of the badge was
23 green and amidst those two vertically placed rifles he recalled was a
24 Croat checkerboard and at the top of the checkerboard were written
25 the letters "HVO", and just beneath their butts, where the two
1 buttons of the two rifles came together, he recalled were written in
2 the form of curve, an arc, the words "Croatian Defence Council".
3 Q. I think this is correct, is it not, that this witness confirms the
4 death of the three men as described by Witness B; is that correct?
5 A. That is true.
6 Q. Then I think this witness also in fact confirms that the remaining
7 women and children were forced into the summer house; is that
9 A. That is true.
10 Q. I think he also confirms, does he not, that his mother breaks out of
11 this summer house, or breaks open the door to the summer house, with
12 an axe; is that correct?
13 A. That is true.
14 Q. I then think he states or stated to you that he escaped with the
15 other survivors to the local woods; is that correct?
16 A. That is true.
17 Q. I think he also confirmed to you that, like his mother, he escaped
18 to Pajtov Han where at an HVO checkpoint he was taken into custody by
19 the HVO; is that correct?
20 A. That is true.
21 Q. I think he gives more detail than his mother about the arrival of UN
22 Protection Force. Could you tell the court something about what he
23 said about this?
24 A. The witness recalled that they were stopped at an HVO checkpoint
25 which was located in the village of Pajtov Han, and he also
1 remembered the name of the soldiers who were manning that HVO
2 checkpoint, and he recalled that both of those soldiers were
3 residents of Vares and he knew them. He recalls that about half an
4 hour after they had been stopped at that checkpoint two UNPROFOR
5 trucks came, and he recalled that he knew that in Vares the UNPROFOR
6 troops are from Sweden. He recalled that those trucks came near them
7 and stopped nearby them, and two soldiers, UNPROFOR soldiers, came
8 out of those trucks. He recalled that one of those soldiers was
9 speaking Bosnian language, and he came up to them, the Bosnian
10 language speaking UNPROFOR soldier, and he asked them who they were
11 and where they wanted to go.
12 Then the same soldier, UNPROFOR soldier who was speaking Bosnian
13 language, he went up to the two HVO soldiers who were manning that
14 checkpoint and asked them, "Why don't you let them off? Why don't
15 you release them? Why are they standing here?"
16 And the soldier who the Witness C recognises and remembers his name,
17 said that, "We can only give them permission to go with the prior
18 permission of Ivica Rajic.
19 Q. Specifically the witness said to you with the prior permission of
20 Ivica Rajic; is that correct?
21 A. That is true.
22 Q. I think indeed the UN Protection Force truck left after this had
23 been said to them, and then returned approximately half an hour
24 later; is that correct?
25 A. That is true.
1 Q. Then I think at that stage all of the remaining survivors were take
2 to Dabravine; is that correct?
3 A. That is true.
4 Q. I think this witness also says something about the total number of
5 dead from Stupni Do, and I wondered if you could very briefly
6 summarise to the court what the witness said to you and how he
7 actually supported his assertions about the final number of dead, the
8 final number of dead in Stupni Do?
9 A. The witness recalled that one week after his after he had been
10 rescued and taken Dabravine, UNPROFOR brought the remains of 16
11 natives of Stupni Do and he was there
12 in Breeza and he saw the remains of those 16 natives of Stupni Do who
13 had been, who had died during the October 1993 attack. Then he
14 recalled that after Rajic was taken by Bosnian Army in November 1993,
15 and he recalled that it was his birthday somewhere in November 1993,
16 when he accompanied the new troops to the village of Stupni Do to
17 assist them with their efforts to search for the remains of some
18 other natives of Stupni Do who died during the attack, and he said
19 that he personally saw the remains of six other people being
20 recovered. He specifically gave the names of those six other natives
21 of Stupni Do who died during the October 1993 attack.
22 Apart from these 16 and six people, he said that he knew that
23 there were 16 other people who died during the attack, and he heard
24 from others who also assisted with the search for the bodies, he
25 heard it being said from them and he also specified the locations
1 that he
2 heard being mentioned in connection with the remains of those bodies.
3 But he said that he did not see them being found out; he only heard
4 about them from others.
5 Q. Right. Thank you very much indeed. If we could move on to the next
6 witness, your Honours, which is in fact Witness D.
7 Mr. Bajwa, are you familiar with the identity of Witness B?
8 A. That is true.
9 Q. And familiar with the testimony?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I think Witness D is a 35 year old woman who in fact was married to
12 the President of the Community, Witness A; is that correct?
13 A. That is true.
14 Q. I think Witness A had two children at the time of the attack aged 10
15 and 6; is that correct?
16 A. That is true.
17 Q. I think again this witness was present during the same events as
18 Witnesses B and C. So, if you can just confirm, as it were,
19 corroboration of what they had said I think that will be adequate for
20 the purposes of the court rather than repeating all the evidence
22 I think that this witness actually said something quite
23 interesting about the village Guard Force in Stupni Do, and I wonder
24 if you could briefly state to the court what she said about that?
25 A. The Witness D recalled that the number of people in the village
1 guard was about 30 to 40, and she said that they were all men who
2 were natives of Stupni Do. She said none of them was from outside
3 the village of Stupni Do, except for one exception that she made.
4 She said that there was one soldier, and she also gave his name, who
5 was visiting his brother at the time of the attack who also might
6 have been involved in defending the village at the time of the
7 attack, but otherwise it was a Guard Force that was composed
8 exclusively of the natives of Stupni Do.
9 Q. I think this witness confirms, does she not, that the attack
10 commenced at 8 o'clock in the morning of 23rd October 1993; is that
12 A. That is true.
13 Q. She also states, does she not, that she perceived that the attack
14 had commenced because she had heard shooting from all around; is that
16 A. That is true.
17 Q. I think she then stated to you that she ran to the shelter in the
18 basement of the house with her two children; is that correct?
19 A. That is true.
20 Q. I think she also confirmed to you the arrival of Witnesses B and C
21 into the basement shelter; is that correct?
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. She also confirms the death of the three men which you have
24 explained through the evidence of Witness B. She says something
25 quite interesting and it is certainly relevant for the purpose of
1 these proceedings about these three men. Can you say to the court
2 what she said?
3 A. She recalled that all three of them had impediments. She talked
4 about Rifed, the first man who was murdered, and she recalled that
5 Rifed had a congenital deformity in his foot, and
6 about Edin who also happened to be her brother-in-law, a brother of
7 her husband, she recalled that he had some nervous problem. He had
8 some kind of a mental impediment. Concerning Mehmo, the third man
9 who was murdered in Pricado, she recalled that he had
10 had some kind of a spinal fracture at his workplace. So all three of
11 them were handicapped in different ways. She also mentioned the
12 dresses, civilian clothes, that all three of them were wearing at the
13 time when they were found in the shelter.
14 Q. Thank you. I think she also says something, does she not, about the
15 appearance of the soldiers who came to the basement and something
16 about their uniforms. I wondered if you could tell the court what
17 she said about that?
18 A. The witness recalled that the attacking soldiers were clad in
19 camouflage uniforms, and she recalled that some of them had their
20 faces plastered with camouflage paint, and some of them were wearing
21 gloves without fingers, fingerless gloves, and she recalled that they
22 were armed with rifles and with knives and some of those knives were
23 in the sheaths that were hanging from their belts, and some of those
24 knives were tucked in their boots that they were wearing.
25 She also had a clear memory of the shoulder badges that they
1 were wearing, and she recalled that the design of the shoulder badge
2 was such that there was a big "U" and inside the two arms of the "U"
3 was a Croat checkerboard, red and white, and at the top of the two
4 arms of the U were written letters "HVO" and she recalled that just
5 beneath the "U" were some roses and some branches.
6 Q. I think, as I have just stated, she confirms the death of the three
7 men who were present at the time. She also says something about her
8 young son. Could you explain to the court what she says about that?
9 A. Yes, the witness recalled that after the murder of Rifed, the same
10 soldier was holding the same knife that he had killed Rifed with, and
11 he brought that knife to her son that was standing, and she was
12 holding the hand of her son, her two sons, and the soldier put the
13 blade of the knife just underneath the chin of the son, just on his
14 throat, and when he was doing it and she had a clear impression that
15 the soldier was about to slit the throat of her son, and suddenly he
16 caught sight of her necklace and the jewellery she was wearing, and
17 then the soldier asked her to give him all the jewellery. She
18 recalled that she gave her finger ring and her earrings and her
19 necklace and that is how the life of her son was spared.
20 Q. How old was the boy, did she say to you?
21 A. Yes, his age was 7 years of age at that time.
22 Q. Thank you. I think the witness then said something to you about
23 Sido's house; do you recall what she said?
24 A. The witness said that after murdering three men, the soldiers turned
25 to this line of women and children and they said that we should kill
1 them now and they should stand properly in
2 line, and when they were saying this, Sido said: "Don't do this to
3 us; what have we done? I have gotten a house here and I will give
4 you my house", and Witness B recalled that when she said this, her
5 house was not burning at that time, but one of the soldiers ordered
6 her house being burnt and her house was burnt with the help of
7 something that was put on
8 the rifle and fired and her house was burnt.
9 Later on she corroborated the fact, witness D corroborated the
10 fact, that Sida was also indeed killed.
11 Q. I think this witness also had a concern question put to her that was
12 not put to any of the other people present; is that correct?
13 A. That is true.
14 Q. Could you say what that question was?
15 A. She was asked where her husband was and when she expressed her
16 ignorance of the whereabouts of her husband, she was struck in her
17 head by the soldier who had put that question to her.
18 Q. I think again this witness confirmed that the soldiers discussed
19 amongst themselves as to whether or not these people should be shot
20 or, in fact, burnt alive; is that correct?
21 A. That is true.
22 Q. I think again this witness confirms that the dead bodies of the four
23 individuals were seen to
24 be carried into a burning house; is that correct?
25 A. That is true.
1 Q. I think this witness also confirmed to you, did she not, that the
2 remaining group of women and children were taken into the summer
3 house which was duly locked by the HVO; is that correct?
4 A. That is true.
5 Q. I think she also confirmed, did she not, Witness B's account of the
6 breaking open of the door with an axe; is that correct?
7 A. That is true.
8 Q. I think she stated to you that the group spent two days in the
9 forest nearby; is that correct?
10 A. That is true.
11 Q. Then I think she stated, like indeed the other witnesses that we
12 have heard about, that the group went to Pajtov Han where they were
13 arrested by the HVO; is that correct?
14 A. That is true.
15 Q. I think, indeed, this witness said to you that she was eventually
16 rescued with the others by the United Nations Protection Force; is
17 that correct?
18 A. This is true.
19 Q. I think she again confirms something about a discussion that took
20 place between the HVO and the United Nations Protection Force; is
21 that correct?
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. Can you explain to the court what she said about this?
24 A. She recalled that the UNPROFOR soldier approached one of the HVO
25 soldiers at the checkpoint at which they had been stopped, and asked
1 him for letting these people go, these survivors of Stupni Do, and
2 the soldier said that he could not do that without the prior
3 permission of Ivica Rajic and Emil Harak.
4 Q. Thank you. Your Honours, if we can now move on to witness E?
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, let me ask a couple of questions
6 regarding witness D. (To the witness): You mentioned a guard force
7 of 30 to 40 people; is that correct?
8 A. That is true, your Honour.
9 Q. Who were the guard force? Were they part of the BiH or were they
10 local persons who lived in Stupni Do?
11 A. That is what the witness said. The witness said that they were all
12 the native residents of Stupni Do.
13 Q. Not regular army of the BiH?
14 A. She did not say that. She did not say that they were part of
15 regular army of Bosnia.
16 Q. You mentioned that these soldiers who had HVO badges on them were
17 dressed in camouflage. Was that green or black or neither? I think
18 of camouflage as being, you know, a combination of, perhaps, green
19 and brown, something that might go along with surrounding trees, but
20 from reading the witness statements it seems that it may have been a
21 different colour. You tell me.
22 A. On the basis of the interviews with some of the other interviews, it
23 appears that a distinction can be made between black uniform and
24 camouflage uniform because there a number of witnesses who mention
25 about soldiers being clad in black uniform. So this witness
1 specifically mentioned it to be camouflage uniform, so my impression
2 of it is it is the camouflage uniform which blends with the
3 plantation and with colours around.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr. Cayley. You are
5 proceeding to witness E?
6 MR. CAYLEY: Witness E. (To the witness): I think witness E is a young
7 woman; is that correct?
8 A. That is true.
9 Q. I think, indeed, she was aged 14 at the time of the attack; is that
11 A. That is true.
12 Q. I think she was born in Stupni Do and had lived in Stupni Do all her
13 life; is that correct?
14 A. That is true.
15 Q. I think witness E lived in a different area of the village to which
16 we have been talking about already with the other witnesses. I
17 wondered if you could indicate on the aerial photograph exactly where
18 she did live, where witness A indeed said her place of residence
19 in the village was located?
20 A. Yes, it was a portion of the village that was lower than the portion
21 that we have been talking about and, according to witness E, the name
22 of that portion is Zarnoger and her house here was 22.
23 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bajwa. I think this witness noted
24 something about the change in the uniform of the Police Officers. I
25 think, your Honour, this may assist in the question
1 you just addressed to the witness. Could you explain what the
2 witness said to you about this?
3 A. The witness recalled that as a student of the elementary school what
4 she remembered as Vares Majdam, she used to go to Vares Majdam daily
5 to attend her school and her classes. She could not recall exactly
6 when, but she said that she has only noticed that Police Officers who
7 used to wear grey uniforms started wearing camouflage uniforms, and
8 she also recalled that they had badges with Croatian chessboard and
9 HVO written on them. She recalled that lots of these new policemen
10 in camouflage uniforms were wearing crosses around their necks.
11 Q. I think this witness confirmed to you, did she not, that the night
12 before the attack the electricity was cut off in the village; is that
14 A. That is true.
15 Q. I think her mother commented to her at the time that if the
16 electricity was cut off, then there was trouble ahead; is that right?
17 A. Yes she recalled that is what her mother said.
18 Q. In the early morning of October 23rd the witness stated to you what
19 she had heard. Can you explain to the court what she said to you?
20 A. Can you please repeat that question?
21 Q. Yes, in the early morning of October 23rd at about 8 o'clock, I
22 think the witness stated what she heard. I wondered if you could say
23 to the court what she said to you?
24 A. Yes, she recalled that morning at the start of the attack, she was
25 piling wood logs just outside her house in the shed, and she heard
1 some random shootings, and she thought that
2 that shooting should be the one by those youths which used to do that
3 in the village. But suddenly after those random shots, she said
4 that suddenly lots of intense firing started and
5 she recalled that firing was coming from Vares Majdam, from Bjelo
6 Borje and from Mir and from all the different directions, and seeing
7 so much of firing she rushed inside her house to see what was
9 Q. I think the witness then stated to you, did she not, that her, her
10 father, her sister and her aunt rushed to the basement shelter of the
11 house; is that correct?
12 A. That is true.
13 Q. I think then the witness explained to you what happened next. Can
14 you tell the court what she said to you?
15 A. The witness recalled that in the basement with her were her sister
16 and the sister of her father and her father himself, and presently
17 her father left saying that he is going to reinforce the defences of
18 the village. With the departure of her father, the three women were
19 left behind in the basement. She recalled that meanwhile all the
20 windows had broken
21 and all of them, all three of them, were lying on the wooden floor of
22 the basement.
23 Then she remembered that some of her neighbours arrived and she
24 recalled the name of Nevzeta who came with her seven year old
25 daughter. Then she recalled the name of Lejla
1 who came with her one-year old granddaughter, Indira. Then she
2 recalled the name of Merima who came with her son, Vahidin, and with
3 her daughter, Mebrula. And all of them came, and with their arrival
4 they became 10.
5 Q. I think at this point she found out that there were soldiers very
6 nearby where they were sheltering. How did she know this?
7 A. Then she recalled that there was another neighbour who came and she
8 said that she was in a very bad condition and her clothes were all
9 ridden with dust and she was trembling. She said that, "They have
10 entered, the HVO have entered the village". The witness, he recalled
11 that that neighbour who came, she said that those soldiers were clad
12 in black uniforms and they had white cloth ribbons tied around their
13 upper arms and they had black caps on their heads. That is the
14 description that was given to witness E at that time in point by one
15 of her neighbours who arrived in her house.
16 Q. I think at this point, indeed, the witness's neighbour noticed some
17 soldiers around the house from which they had just fled; is that
19 A. That is true.
20 Q. I think it was decided at that point that they would, in fact, all
21 leave the basement shelter because that neighbouring house was very
22 close by to them and they thought they would, in fact, have an
23 arrival of soldiers soon to them; is that correct?
24 A. That is true.
25 Q. I think the witness explained to you that she ran out of the
1 basement and behind a rain barrel that was next to the house; is that
3 A. That is true.
4 Q. Could you explain to the court what she said to you happened next?
5 A. She said that the moment that they saw soldiers in the nearby house
6 everybody wanted to flee the basement where all of them were, and she
7 also went out trying to flee the place. She saw a water barrel just
8 lying beside the wall of the house in whose basement she was hiding,
9 and she just huddled herself in one of the corner behind that barrel.
10 She said that she could still be seen, she was not fully hidden, and
11 she said that firing was still going on
12 ad presently she felt as if a bullet had struck the barrel behind
13 which she was hiding. Fearing that it had been hit, she recalled
14 that she gradually crawled out of the barrel and she recalled that
15 she did not know what to do. She was just squatting on the ground,
16 and squatting on the ground she noticed that on her left side her
17 dimija that she was wearing had been torn, and she could see that the
18 skin where the dimija was torn was pierced and there was blood, a
19 trickle of blood, there.
20 Q. I think then a voice, in fact, called to her from the basement
21 calling her back inside; is that correct?
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. Who was in the basement?
24 A. She said that it was her sister Medina and her aunt Hatioza.
25 Q. I think, in fact, the group of people in the basement then hid in a
1 pit in the ground; is that correct?
2 A. That is true.
3 Q. I understand that the witness then explained that she heard
4 masculine voices calling down into the basement. I wondered if you
5 could explain something of that to the court?
6 A. The witness recalled that at that time totally there were four,
7 including witness E herself, and amongst which was her sister, her
8 aunt and one of the neighbours, and all of them were crammed into
9 that vegetable storage pit in the basement. She recalled that she
10 was curled up and she was lying on the floor of the pit and on her
11 was sitting her own sister who was covering her.
12 She recalled that she heard these sounds of somebody saying:
13 "Is there anybody in?" Then she recalled that it appeared as if the
14 same person who had asked this question stepped into the basement
15 into whose pit they were sheltered, and then she recalled the same
16 voice calling somebody by the name of Kakanjac. She recalled that
17 somebody replied to that call for Kakanjac and asked: "What?" and
18 this man said: "I have found three balija women".
19 Q. I understand. So after the soldier actually called out, what did
20 the witness say happened next?
21 A. She recalled that suddenly she realised that there were two men
22 inside the basement where these four women were hidden, and she
23 realised that probably she was not visible to them because this man
24 had only mentioned three balija women and not four, because actually
25 there were four. So presently she recalled that they were swearing
1 at these three women that they were looking at. She said that she
2 did not hear any kind of a response or any kind of a voice of those
3 three women who were on her and who were there and who were visible
4 to those men. Then presently she recalled that she heard a burst of
5 gunfire and later on it was all quiet.
6 Q. I think, indeed, the witness said to you that she called out to the
7 three women that were with her in a low whisper and that there was no
8 reply; is that correct?
9 A. That is true.
10 Q. I think she then called to her sister again and there was still no
11 response; is that correct?
12 A. That is true.
13 Q. I think the witness then said to you that she had climbed out of the
14 pit and she saw something unusual. Can you explain to the court what
15 it was that she saw?
16 A. She recalled that she saw a candle with a flame flickering just
17 beside the pit in which these
18 three dead women lay.
19 Q. I think at this stage the witness explained to you that she ran up
20 towards Pricado which is, indeed, the previous image which was on the
21 television screen in front of the court; is that correct?
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. Did anything happen as she was running away?
24 A. She recalled that she was wounded with -- her buttock had been
25 pierced with a bullet so she slowed down while she was trying to run
1 and escape. She slowed down and while she
2 was trudging along the way up Pricado, she heard a voice, one man
3 calling to another: "Go after her, catch her, kill her", and she
4 recalled that suddenly after this there were bullets that were
5 striking around the place where she was, and she again broke into a
6 fast run and reached to the nearby forest.
7 Q. I think she then moved to an area of the forest, in fact, a clearing
8 in the trees above Stupni Do called Ravnica; is that correct?
9 A. That is true.
10 Q. I think there she met five to six soldiers. Could you explain to
11 the court what she said to you about this?
12 A. Yes, she recalled that when she noticed those soldiers in that
13 clearing of Ravnica just above Pricado, they were already jumping
14 over the fence around that clearing. She had an impression that they
15 had seen her. So she was about to run when those soldiers addressed
16 her saying that, "surrender yourself". She said that, "When they said
17 this, I was sure that they had seen me so I again starting running
18 and they started shooting at me from behind".
19 Q. I think at this stage the witness met up with other villagers; she
20 ran from this point and she
21 met a lot of villagers; is that correct?
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. I think she decided to do something somewhat unusual and I wondered
24 if you could explain what she decided to do next?
25 A. She recalled that she was hiding inside the trees with a clump of
1 trees, and suddenly it occurred to her that she should climb up the
2 tree and see the village, what was happening there.
3 Q. So, indeed, she had a panoramic view of the whole village from this
4 beech tree; is that correct?
5 A. That is true.
6 Q. Can you explain to the court what she saw?
7 A. Yes, she recalled that she saw lots of fires in the village. She
8 recalled that from her position at the top of the tree she could saw
9 all the different portions of the village. She could see Pricado and
10 Mlincic and Lipa in the main village itself, and she saw fires
11 everywhere. She recalled the names of specific houses where those
12 fires were, and suddenly she saw the roof top of one of the houses in
13 the main body of the village which was called Guvno suddenly
14 exploding and turning into pieces. That is what she saw.
15 Q. I think some time later she actually returned into the village; is
16 that correct?
17 A. That is true.
18 Q. Where I think she met up with her father; is that correct?
19 A. That is true.
20 Q. What did she tell you about the house that she had fled from? I
21 think she mentioned something to you about this?
22 A. Yes, she said that when she fled from that house at that time she
23 only knew that there were three people who had been killed there,
24 and that was because she was hidden with them. But later on her
25 father asked her about the sister, about father's sister and about
1 witness E's sister, and she said: "Both of them are killed". The
2 father asked about some of the other neighbours who were hidden with
3 witness E. She said she did not know at that time. But the same
4 night, when they fled out of the village, the father went back to the
5 house to see the dead body of her daughter, witness E's sister, and
6 coming back, father of witness E told witness E that everybody else,
7 nine people, were killed and their dead bodies were there in the
9 Q. I think she then subsequently went to the basement of another house
10 in the village; is that correct?
11 A. That is true.
12 Q. There was a fairly large group of people sheltering in that
13 basement; is that correct?
14 A. That is true.
15 Q. I think she then joined that group and eventually she explained that
16 she reached Dabravine with the help of the United Nations Protection
17 Forces; is that correct?
18 A. That is true.
19 Q. Thank you very much indeed. If we could now move on, please, your
20 Honours, to witness F? Witness F, I think, is it correct that she
21 was at the time of the attack a 41 year old woman?
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. I think, indeed, she was a housewife. She describes herself as a
24 housewife to you with two children in their early 20s; is that
1 A. That is true.
2 Q. I think she also told you, did she not, that both her son and her
3 husband were killed in the attack on Stupni Do; is that correct?
4 A. That is true.
5 Q. I think she actually said something to you about the ethnic mix of
6 the village prior to the attack on Stupni Do, in fact, I correct
7 myself there, prior to the breakdown of the former Yugoslavia. I
8 wondered if you could say something about that?
9 A. Yes, witness recalled that there were about eight houses, Serb
10 houses, in the village apart from one Croat woman married to a Muslim
12 Q. I think this witness also, and this was from her personal experience
13 because both her husband and her son were in the village guard force,
14 actually says something to you, she gives a description of the
15 village guard force. Could you explain to the court what she says?
16 A. Yes, actually when the witness was asked concerning this aspect she
17 said that there were soldiers in the village, but then she suddenly
18 said that, "We should not call them soldiers, they were guards
19 because all of them were from our village, none of them from outside
20 the village, and they were just protecting their own village". She
21 said that some of them did not have uniforms, and she recalled that
22 her own husband and her own son, both of whom were members of that
23 village guard, did not have uniforms. Both of them just had
24 camouflage jackets without trousers. Then she recalled that her
25 husband had bought somewhere boots for her son, but her son's foot
1 size was bigger and the boots were shorter, so it was that kind of
2 force that they had in the village.
3 Q. I think on the night of 22nd October 1993, she indeed said to you
4 that she was at home with her son, Muamer, and her husband Saley; is
5 that correct?
6 A. That is true.
7 Q. I think she said to you, did she not, that in the morning she had to
8 rise quite early because her son Muamer had to go for guard duty and
9 she, in fact, had to cook his breakfast; is that correct?
10 A. That is true.
11 Q. Can you explain what she said to you about the departure of her son
12 from the house?
13 A. Yes. There were moments of deep distress for her to recall
14 everything and she said that the son left the doors of the house
15 saying, "Allah-I-Manad", and then she said: "I kept standing in the
16 door looking at the back of my son", and the son went down and
17 reached the road just beside the house and then he turned back
18 realising that his mother might still
19 be there. He, a second time, he said, "Allah-I-Manad", and then he
20 went away. Then she started crying and saying that, "I never saw
21 another time living or dead".
22 Q. Her son?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What does "Allah-I-Manad" mean, please?
25 A. The witness was not asked this question, but otherwise it is a
1 Bosnian variation of Arabic farewell.
2 Q. So it is a form of valediction?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What does that mean in English?
5 A. It should mean "To the protection of God".
6 Q. I understand, thank you. I think the witness then said to you that
7 her husband went to the area of village called Guvno and he took the
8 keys to their stable with him; is that correct?
9 A. That is true.
10 Q. I think she explained to you that she followed him to get the keys
11 to the stable and then returned back to their house to prepare the
12 coffee for the breakfast; is that correct?
13 A. That is true.
14 Q. I think her husband then returned and they sat down and drank their
15 coffee for their breakfast. I think she said something very specific
16 about the timing of the attack. I wondered if you could explain that
17 to the court?
18 A. Yes, she recalled that they had a clock with a cuckoo in their
19 house, and she recalled that when they started sipping at their cups
20 of coffee the cuckoo started cooing, and she remembered that
21 distinctly, that it was 8.00 in the morning and a while later, while
22 they were talking to one another, a shell fell.
23 Q. Indeed, shooting started all around; is that correct?
24 A. That is true.
25 Q. I think the witness then explained to you that her husband told her
1 to go to Rasida's house; is that correct?
2 A. That is true.
3 Q. In fact, I think, indeed, this witness did go to the basement of
4 Rasida's house and that basement, am I correct, was in fact decided
5 into two rooms?
6 A. That is true.
7 Q. I think there was one larger room and one smaller room; is that
9 A. That is true.
10 Q. Then I think, in fact, other people arrived in this basement
11 shelter; is that correct?
12 A. That is true.
13 Q. How many people arrived?
14 A. She talked about two women call Kada and Melca.
15 Q. I think she then heard shooting all around again; is that correct?
16 A. That is true.
17 Q. I think the witness heard shouting. There were specific words which
18 she remembered very clearly and I wondered if you could repeat those
19 to the court?
20 A. Yes. She recalled that while in the basement she was just pacing up
21 and down fearing for the lives of her husband and her son, and every
22 now and then he would just dash towards the door to see what is
23 happening outside. On one of these occasions when she was just
24 standing by the door she heard lots of shoutings and yellings
25 outside, and she recalled distinctly that it was "Uraa, Spremni Za
1 Don", and the witness specifically said that this is
2 the war cry of, what she said, "Ustashas".
3 Q. I understand. I think this witness also confirmed that she heard
4 screaming from Kava Likic's house; is that correct?
5 A. That is true.
6 Q. In fact, that is where nine people were killed; is that correct?
7 A. That is true.
8 Q. I think this witness seeing that, as she called them, the Ustasha
9 were close around the house, it was decided that all of the women and
10 children would move into the back room leaving an older gentleman,
11 Ramiz Likic, in the front room; is that correct?
12 A. That is true.
13 Q. I think at this stage she heard the sound of boots upstairs; is
14 that correct?
15 A. That is true.
16 Q. I think Ramiz Likic came from the front room to the back room and,
17 indeed, told them to surrender and that the HVO had arrived; is that
19 A. That is true.
20 Q. I think at this stage the soldiers who came into the basement made
21 both Ramiz Likic and all the women and children that were present
22 come out of the basement to the outside of the house; is that
24 A. That is true.
25 Q. What did the soldiers say to them?
1 A. The soldiers asked them for money and for all their valuables and
2 told them to surrender their jewellery, and they said that only those
3 will live who will be able to produce at least 100 German marks.
4 Q. I think at this stage this older gentleman Ramiz Likic was taken to
5 one side by the soldiers;
6 is that correct?
7 A. That is true.
8 Q. Can you explain to the court what happened to him?
9 A. The witness recalled that they were made to stand in a line and
10 Ramiz Likic was also, and Ramiz Likic happened to be the
11 brother-in-law of the witness, was also standing in the same line and
12 suddenly she heard a voice saying: "Step aside, you old man". Then
13 she saw that the brother-in-law stepped aside, and then she recalled
14 that he was asked for money and he said that he is an old man and he
15 is just a pensioner and he does not have no money on him.
16 Then she heard the sound of a shot being fired and she said that
17 she was too scared to turn her neck and see what had happened to
18 Ramiz. So she heard a voice saying that, "Still not dead" and a
19 second shot, and then she said that she just glanced sideways and she
20 saw Ramiz Likic lying on the ground.
21 Q. I think at this stage one of the soldiers who is in the group that
22 was at this location says something that makes her realise that her
23 son is dead. I wondered if you could tell the account that she gave
24 to you about this?
25 A. The witness recalled that while they were collecting money and
1 jewellery from them, one of the soldiers was saying that, "We have
2 killed all of them and we have killed your bravest soldier". Then
3 when he was talking about the bravest soldier, he said "Godiste 73".
4 She said: "According to our language, Godiste 73 would mean the
5 bravest soldier is
6 the one who was born in 73". And then she said that he became more
7 specific in saying Godiste 73, he said, "Mugdim". She said "I knew
8 that there was nobody in the defence of
9 the village or, indeed, even amongst the residents of the village
10 whose name could be Mugdim". She recalled that since the name of her
11 own son was Muamer, she just came to realise that it is her son, the
12 bravest soldier, and who had also been born in 73, who was being
13 referred to by the same soldier. That is how she came to know that
14 he was dead and he had been murdered, he had been killed.
15 Q. I think at this stage soldiers tell one of the women that she has to
16 go to where the village guard was located and tell them to surrender;
17 is that correct?
18 A. That is true.
19 Q. I think, indeed, that particular lady could not go because she said
20 she had two young children to look after; is that correct?
21 A. That is true.
22 Q. In fact, I think, indeed the witness was then chosen for this job;
23 is that correct?
24 A. That is true.
25 Q. I think, indeed, the witness told you that she started to proceed to
1 where she thought the village guard force was located and she became
2 very frightened because she saw a lot of soldiers around her; is that
4 A. That is true.
5 Q. Can you give a brief description of what she said about the uniforms
6 of the soldiers that she saw?
7 A. Yes, she said that they were wearing black uniforms.
8 Q. I think, indeed, she said that she was so frightened that she turned
9 around to go back to where she had come from; is that correct?
10 A. That is true.
11 Q. I think at this stage a soldier said something to her and advised
12 her not to be frightened. Could you explain what exactly happened?
13 A. Yes. The witness recalled that, frightened by seeing so many
14 soldiers gathered at a neighbouring house, she suddenly turned back
15 and as she turned back she saw this soldier,
16 and she told that soldier: "I cannot go to communicate your message
17 to our soldiers because there are other soldiers there and they might
18 shoot at me". That soldier said: "Don't worry. They will not shoot
19 at you. I am their commander." The witness was emphatic that the
20 word that that soldier used was "Zapovgednik". She said that
21 "Zapovgednik" is the name for the commander used by Croats.
22 Then the witness recalled that she had been in a very strange
23 state. She could not recollect things. She could not recollect
24 features, but certainly when the soldier said, "I am the commander", she
25 said: "I was suddenly shaken and I looked at this soldier who was
1 describing himself as the commander of all this destruction". She said:
2 "I was able to see the face of this soldier".
3 She gave a description and the description that the witness F
4 gave was that it was a middle-aged man; he had a broad thick set
5 frame; he had hair that was dark brown in colour and he had a round
6 face and at that time she said that he was wearing a beard that did
7 not look dusty, it looked to be freshly trimmed. It was about two
8 and a half centimetres. She said that he was wearing a uniform and
9 some of the upper buttons of his
10 shirt were open, and she recalled that by virtue of the fact that she
11 saw this big cross shining on his chest, and she recalled that he
12 spoke in a very low and in a very calm fashion and he was very
14 Q. I understand. I think she, indeed, then does go to the village
15 guard and, in fact, subsequently makes good her escape from the
16 village; is that correct?
17 A. That is true.
18 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honours, we do not intend to examine Mr. Bajwa as to the
19 final statement in the bundle that we originally said we were, in
20 fact, going to ask him to talk about, but I certainly think it is a
21 statement that you will find of extremely useful guidance
22 in respect of the village guard force, because the individual who
23 gave the statement was a member of the village guard force. But he
24 does not actually give any evidence of the atrocities in Stupni Do,
25 specific evidence on atrocities, so I think in many ways it would be
1 perfectly satisfactory for you to read it in your deliberations.
2 JUDGE SIDHWA: That is regarding witness G?
3 MR. CAYLEY: That is regarding witness G, your Honour, yes.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Have you concluded with this witness?
5 MR. CAYLEY: I have concluded with this witness, Madam President.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then you may be excused, thank you very much.
7 JUDGE SIDHWA: Have you got a final complete question to him that he has
8 recorded the statements of pseudonym witnesses A to G and that they
9 were taken properly, that materially he did not add anything or
10 subtract anything from their statements and they were recorded in the
11 normal course, and that these witnesses originally, whoever they are,
12 signed those? Has the composite question been put to him?
13 MR. CAYLEY: That question has been put to him, your Honour.
14 JUDGE SIDHWA: Covering all of them?
15 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, covering all of those aspects, your Honour, yes.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much. You are excused.
17 (The witness withdrew)
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Cayley, who will be your next witness? How long
19 do you anticipate to hear from him or her?
20 MR. CAYLEY: The next witness will be examined by my learned friend Mr.
21 Ostberg. I would estimate it would take approximately 45 minutes.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Cayley, why do you not call your next witness
23 and we will hear from him, perhaps, for 15 to 20 minutes and then we
24 will recess for lunch?
25 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Madam President. If you could call Brigadier Ulf
1 Henricsson, please?
2 BRIGADIER GENERAL ULF HENRICSSON, called.
3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole
4 truth and nothing but the truth.
5 (The witness was sworn)
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, General Henricsson. You may be seated.
7 Mr. Ostberg?
8 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you, your Honour. Yes, I am ready to proceed.
9 Examined by MR. OSTBERG
10 Q. You are Brigadier General Ulf Henricsson?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. As I can see from your uniform, serving with the Swedish Army?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Very good. Would you give the court a brief account of your
15 military career?
16 A. Yes, I am an army officer. I had made a normal career and became
17 Colonel, head of the Armoured Combat School in '90. I got Brigade
18 Commander for the 10th Mechanised Brigade in '91 and I got the
19 assignment to organise and train the first Nordic battalion for
20 Bosnia in April '93. I came down to Bosnia with a recognisance team
21 at the beginning of September.
22 Q. Do we now turn to your engagement with the United Nations?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When were you first asked, after you have done this training of the
25 battalion, when were you put on the UN assignment for the first time?
1 A. Well, my first assignment was when I got the job in April '93.
2 Q. To do the training?
3 A. To do the training. That was a UN assignment. Then I started down
4 here as a part of UNPROFOR in September '93.
5 Q. As a commander of the Nordic battalion?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where were you then based in Bosnia?
8 A. We had our headquarters outside Tuzla and my area of responsibility
9 was the same as the 2nd Bosnian Army corps, and it started north in
10 the Posavina corridor in Brcko and down south, to some 10 kilometres
11 south of Vares in central Bosnia.
12 Q. We have some maps we are now formally going to offer into evidence.
13 We firstly start introducing a map of Bosnia
14 and that is Exhibit 2. This is nothing but a map of Bosnia but on
15 our screens you can just point where in Bosnia your battalion was
17 A. Yes. It is a very bad map.
18 Q. Is it?
19 A. Yes, but I will find it.
20 Q. We will have a more detailed one as exhibit No. 3, I think.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Bad because you say it is small, it is difficult?
22 A. No, it is bad too, but my area of responsibility started up here at
23 Brcko, some 10 kilometres south of Brcko, and south to Vares down
24 here, there, and then from the east, from Kalesija and over to about
25 up to some 10 kilometres east of the border and then it followed the
1 line of confrontation over this area.
2 Q. You used the term "line of confrontation". Give us a very short
3 overview of the military situation in the vicinity of where you were
5 A. Yes. The line of confrontation run in some, I think it was, 20
6 kilometres east of Tuzla and then north ------
7 Q. I think we now introduce a new map. You have already a new map, a
8 better one?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You have the same?
11 A. I have the same.
12 Q. We will give you another one to make it easier to go into details.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 2, are you going to offer that into
14 evidence, that was the first map?
15 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, we do.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is a map that you have produced, I gather?
17 MR. OSTBERG: We have produced it, yes, your Honour. That was the one we
18 firstly saw.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Was that produced by the Prosecutor's Office, I
21 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, it is.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 2 will be admitted. This is Exhibit 3 now?
23 MR. OSTBERG: Yes.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Another. Let us see if Brigadier General Henricsson
25 says this is any better, is it?
1 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, it is. You recognised the first one. It is Bosnia!
2 A. This is a map over the town of Vares in the south of my area of
3 responsibility, and my area
4 of responsibility went in this area up to the village of Dastansko,
5 and then it went down some 10 kilometres. If you put the map a
6 little more on the south, my area of responsibility, you have the
7 village of Stupni Do which was inside my area of responsibility, and
8 we have the borderline to the British battalion in a village called
10 Han which is some 10 kilometres south of Vares, along the road
11 running down to Breeza and Sarajevo.
12 Q. You can see the road on this map?
13 A. Not on the screen, but on this one, so if you move the map a little
14 more down south.
15 Q. Can you do that? Can we do that? We cannot do that. But you can
16 maybe as you describe it, do you have a -----
17 A. If you see the town of Vares, you have a road, and if you follow
18 that road 10 kilometres south you have the limit, and the border of
19 my area of responsibility in a small village called Pajtou Hahn.
20 Q. Where were the confrontation lines?
21 A. In this area the confrontation line, and on the map, on the screen,
22 it went about one kilometre east of Dastansko and run from north to
23 south, and then it turned to in the village of, I have a name
24 Bonikva, and one kilometre south of that road it went off to the
25 east, and that is the line of confrontation in this area shown on the
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you want to go further west, we are told that you
3 could put the map on the overhead projector. I gather this shows
4 enough to show the confrontation line east. Do you want -----
5 A. It is enough to talk about what happened in Vares, yes.
6 Q. If you want to go further west, you may, but you will have to use
7 the overhead projector?
8 MR. OSTBERG: But you do not have to; maybe we can adjust the one we have
9 when we go into the details of Stupni Do. I just want to know the
10 confrontation lines between -----
11 A. It was for us the confrontation line was between the Bosnian Serbs
12 and the Bosnian government, the Muslim, mainly, but in this area it
13 was a Croat brigade, as a Croat enclave, and this brigade, the
14 Bobovac Brigade, was under the command official by the 2nd corps.
15 Q. Can you tell us using the little map you have on the screen of the
16 outlines of the authority of the HVO, the second command?
17 A. Yes, the headquarter of the HVO was, then you have to put the
18 picture a little more south if it is possible, it is just up north
19 with the name Orsoya.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Really, I think it would be help us if -----
21 MR. OSTBERG: Is this enough for your Honours to see?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, but in the buildings north of the name, if you put it
23 more north up there, yes, you were right. There you have it. There
24 we have the headquarter of the Bobovac Brigade and of my own company
25 command of the H company from Nordic at the same spot.
1 Q. Were they based in the vicinity of each other?
2 A. Yes, it was about 200 metres between our camp and the headquarters
3 of the Bobovac Brigade.
4 Q. Did you tell the court now the outlines of the authority of the
5 Bobovac Brigade, of the entire HVO in this area?
6 A. Yes, I cannot do it on this screen but I can take it on the big map
8 Q. Yes, may be that would be of interest?
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think for me it is of interest because, well,
10 first I would want the witness to describe what is, as he calls it, a
11 confrontation line. It would be helpful if he could draw or at least
12 we could get the perimeters primarily because of your argument about
13 the nature of the conflict, was it truly international, so it is
14 important for me.
15 MR. OSTBERG: Can you, please, put this under the other -----
16 THE WITNESS: It is the same scale as before.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Maybe we will stand in recess now. I think what
18 would be helpful,
19 at least for me, would be a drawing in some kind of a pencil, pen or
20 something of the north, the east, the south and the west borders of
21 the confrontation line during this time.
22 MR. OSTBERG: And the HVOs, where they were and the authority of the HVO.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, that is true. If we can get -----
24 MR. OSTBERG: In the recess we will ask the General to do that on the map
25 which we will then tender as an exhibit.
1 THE WITNESS: I think that is the simplest way of doing it.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30.
3 (The hearing adjourned for a short time)
4 (2.30 p.m.)
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Ostberg, we were hearing from Brigadier General
6 Henricsson. Are you ready to proceed?
7 MR. OSTBERG: I am ready to proceed, yes, thank you, your Honour.
8 BRIGADIER ULF HENRICSSON, recalled.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Brigadier General, you understand that you are still
10 under oath, do you not?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then we are ready to resume.
13 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you. May it please your Honours, now we have put on
14 the board a map with the lines put there by the Brigadier General.
15 First, I will ask you, look at your screen in front of
16 you ---
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- and then point on the map on the board to say what part of it is
19 on the screen -- on the one you have made the lines on, on that one,
21 A. Yes. Here we have the town of Varis.
22 Q. Yes. Have you before you on the screen also part of the map?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Just outline on the big map what part of it is on the screen.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. It is this part.
3 Q. Very good. Thank you. Then we know exactly where you are when you
4 look on your own screens. Then go on, please, to tell me what do
5 these lines, the red one and the green one and the signs mean?
6 A. The red line is a confrontation line between the Bosnian Serbs and
7 the government controlled area with a mainly Muslim, but in this
8 area, this area up here, was controlled by Muslim unit. This area
9 was controlled by Croat unit, a Croat unit named the Bobovac Brigade,
10 and then it was Muslim unit down here. The Croat unit was under the
12 of the 2nd Bosnian Army corps which had their headquarters up in
13 Tuzla, here.
14 Q. Outside the other map, Tuzla is outside the other map.
15 A. OK, yes, very long, because we have that little map on the screen
16 now, from here, but they were commanded formally from Tuzla but, in
17 reality, somewhere else. This Muslim army corps, the third one, was
18 commanded from Zenica. So we have a border between two government
19 controlled army corps in this line.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So that we will have the record straight, to the
21 left, that is green, is it, or blue? I am not colour blind.
22 MR. OSTBERG: It is green, your Honour.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, to the left then, to the left, your left, my
24 left of the green, then that is the area controlled, you said, by the
25 Bosnian Croats; is that correct?
1 A. No, that is not correct ---
2 Q. Sorry.
3 A. -- because this is the government controlled, the Bosnian government
4 controlled, area.
5 Q. The whole map?
6 A. On the north and west of this red line.
7 Q. What is north and west?
8 A. This part, this part of the map ---
9 Q. OK.
10 A. -- is government controlled. This was controlled by the Serbs, but
11 inside the government controlled area, there was a Croat enclave and
12 a Croat HVO unit inside the Muslim areas which were (indecipherable)
13 and up north from here.
14 Q. OK. So to the left then of the green is controlled by -- to the
15 left of the green ---
16 MR. OSTBERG: Croat.
17 THE WITNESS: This is Croat controlled.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: All of the left, to the left of the green?
19 A. And north of this line here, that is controlled by the Croats.
20 Q. Then where the pink or red line is, to the right of that then would
21 be controlled by the Bosnian Serbs?
22 A. Yes. This area.
23 Q. Then there is an area right to the south of the green line and to
24 the west of the red line, that would be controlled by the Muslims?
25 A. The Muslims, yes.
1 Q. Then to the north in between the green and the pink line would be
2 controlled by the Muslims?
3 A. Yes. OK.
4 MR. OSTBERG: Are we in the clear?
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think so.
6 MR. OSTBERG (To the witness): Then I will ask you, my next question is,
7 where was it, if any, fighting between Croats, I mean, Bosnian
8 Croats, and Muslims?
9 A. At that time the fighting ------
10 Q. We are talking now about October 1992?
11 A. Yes, and the fightings between the Muslim and the Croats was in
12 central Bosnia in this area, from Viseko and down to Mostar -------
13 Q. Before you continue, maybe we should take, if I can have the help of
14 the usher, down the map with the lines and tender that as Exhibit No.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Those lines are the confrontation lines you have
17 referred to?
18 MR. OSTBERG: Yes. The confrontation lines that the General is telling us
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
21 MR. OSTBERG: Yes. You can take it down and we offer it as evidence - you
22 can take it away and give it to the Registrar.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that going to be Exhibit 3 as modified?
24 MR. OSTBERG: No. 3, yes.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: As modified with the colours?
1 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, indeed. (To the witness): Now on the board, then
2 please, General, if you will continue, tell us what we have on the
4 A. Yes, here we have a long confrontation line between the Bosnian
5 Serbs on this side, the west side and then the government controlled
6 Bosnia, and at this time it was heavy fighting between the Muslims
7 and the Croats inside the government controlled Bosnia, in this area,
8 Gorni Vakof, Vitez, in this area, and down to Mostar in this area.
9 When we arrived here, it was a big tension between the Croats up
10 in Vares and the Croats south of Vares. Even though they were
11 thought to be under the control of the Muslims up from Tuzla, but it
12 were tension, but the fighting had not spread up to Vares in
13 the beginning of October '93.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What number is that, Mr. Ostberg?
15 MR. OSTBERG: We are not going to tender that as an exhibit. We just have
16 it as assistance to
17 the witness statement, because we have no copies of it and I cannot
18 use it to give it as evidence to you. (To the witness): I think you
19 have satisfied us now on the military situation. Can you now tell us
20 on your of your own observations about what was going on in the area
21 of Vares in the end of October 1993, please?
22 A. Yes. As I said, we knew there were tension and in my first unit
23 which arrived into this area
24 were deployed down in Vares, north of Vares, on a camp which we took
25 over from Canadians. The first position we took up was on the border
1 between the Croats and Muslims, west of Vares and after, I think it
2 was around 18th August, fightings broke out in this area two hours
3 after the position were deployed, and the Muslims launched an attack
4 on a small village called Kopijari. That was our first experience
5 down here. So we knew that there were big tension in this area.
6 During this time we were under deployment and we built up our
7 knowledge about this area, and on 23rd October I was in Kiseljak at the
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina command of the UN, and after lunch I had planned to go
9 back to Tuzla and I then had to go through Vares because that was only
10 possible road up. Then we got the message that it was not possible
11 because the fighting had spread, so the road was blocked, but after some
12 hesitation I got the message from one of my assistants that we could try
13 to get out.
14 We went off and come up to a village named Dabravine, some 30
15 kilometres south of Vares, where we were stopped again. We had the
16 permission to go further and after 10 kilometres more we stopped again,
17 this time by a Muslim patrol which said it was not possible to continue
18 because of heavy fighting and on the road there we found a dead farmer and
19 his cow. So I stopped and thought it was very unhealthy to go further
20 with the soft skin cars. We turned back down to Dabravine where I met the
21 commander, the Muslim commander, of the operational group south of Vares
22 and he told me that there had been an attack on the village of Stupni Do
23 from the Croats, and they just have started and planned a big attack at
24 the town of Vares as a revenge. We talked about it a little and I got him
25 with me on a plan that I could go up to Vares to see what had happened,
1 see if there were any massacre or assault on the village of Stupni Do and
2 then came back to report.
3 So, I mounted a decision and we went on and it started to get
4 dark, and when we came just south of Vares we saw the sky lighted by
5 the burning village of Stupni Do. There was nothing to do there, so
6 we continued up north to my company commander and company camp. I
7 met my company commander, Major Birger, who just were on his way to
8 the Croat Brigade, the Bobovac Brigade grade, which had their
9 headquarter just some 200, 300 metres away from our own camp. He
10 told me that now there were a new brigade commander in the Bobovac
11 Brigade, a man named Ivica Rajic, and we came into the headquarters
12 and started to negotiate with Ivica Rajic and he said that he was a
13 commander of the operational group in Kiseljak and he now had taken
14 command of the Bobovac Brigade.
15 Q. Can you recall exactly how he introduced himself, the words he used?
16 A. Not exactly, but he was very clear that he was the new commander of
17 the Bobovac Brigade.
18 Q. He spoke what language?
19 A. He spoke Serbia Croatian.
20 Q. You had an interpreter?
21 A. I had an interpreter and that was Sergeant Ekenheim.
22 Q. Please go on.
23 A. We start to talk about what happened and I demanded to come into
24 Stupni Do as soon as possible and he said it was not possible. He
25 refused. I then told him the threat from the Muslims, that if I did
1 not come into the town there would be a heavy attack on Vares, but he
2 still refused. But after some time he agreed on letting us in the
3 next day. So with that message, I went back to Dabravine, told the
4 commander of UG in Dabravine what Ivica Rajic had said, and he was
5 not satisfied with that. He demanded that I should go in this night.
6 So I went back up to Rajic, told him: "I want to come in this
7 night", but he still refused, and I then left with where I did not promise
8 not to go in, and then he was very upset because
9 he was not sure what we should do, and I got a very clear picture that he
10 knew exactly what then happened up in Stupni Do because there were still
11 fire, small armed fire and exclusion at that time in the night. He was
12 very anxious to stop us from coming into Stupni Do.
13 I went back to Dabravine once more that night and then
14 negotiated a cease fire until the next day to come into Stupni Do.
15 The next morning -----
16 Q. May I just jump in and ask you, did you pass any area where you
17 could have a look into Stupni Do so that could you see?
18 A. At that time, no, because it had been dark and there was a lot of
19 mines which hindered us to
20 go up or manoeuvre.
21 Q. Did you see any flames or things like that?
22 A. Yes, we saw the burning village, we saw the light from the burning
23 village in the night. So
24 in the morning we started an operation with two units going into
25 Stupni Do from two different directions. They were stopped rather
1 early but after some struggle they came just in the vicinity of
2 Stupni Do, but were stopped by two Croat checkpoints with a mine,
3 mines over the road.
4 I and my company commander tried at the same time to manoeuvre
5 to a position where we could look into the valley and the village. I
6 managed to reach a position and before we went out we should have had
7 a meeting with Ivica Rajic, but he was then not on his headquarter,
8 as I were told. But when we stood on the hillside in Vares, I think
9 it was an engineering officer of the brigade, he came very angry and
10 said: "We are not supposed to
11 be here" because in that place we saw with the binocular just into
12 the village which was still burning. There were still some small
13 arms fire from the village.
14 Q. Could you see some people also?
15 A. No, it was too .....
16 Q. Too far away?
17 A. Yes. While he, the engineering officer, he then said that now Ivica
18 Rajic was in his headquarter and he wanted to speak with us. We went
19 back and then he said: "Well, I will let you in", and with that
20 promise in the afternoon on 24th October I left Vares and after
21 giving some my, intention to my company commander.
22 Q. You had just met Rajic again?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Have you something to tell us about that, from that meeting, if he
25 said something of what was going on or if he had some comments and
1 things like that?
2 A. Yes, his comments not letting us into Stupni Do was that his
3 preparedness for the defence of Vares was more important than letting
4 us into Stupni Do. At the same time we also met soldiers or call
5 them extremists, or what you say, because he had a gang with
6 extremists from Kiseljak and Kakang with a map which was not regular
7 soldiers in this area.
8 Q. What exactly do you mean by "extremists"?
9 A. Well, not regular soldiers but more like gangsters with skin
11 Q. Some kind of uniform?
12 A. Yes, black skin clothing and even from other stuff with knives, hand
13 grenades and guns.
14 Q. They were armed and they were -----
15 A. They were very heavy armed.
16 Q. No real uniform of the usual battle type?
17 A. No, you could not even find them as HVO soldiers.
18 Q. Thank you. Yes?
19 A. When I went back up to Tuzla, my company commander continued to act
20 down in Vares. On the evening, on Sunday evening, when I got back to
21 Tuzla, I got the message at, I think, 10 o'clock that my units down
22 in the town had been shot at by the Bobovac Brigade, a real attack
23 against the UN unit, and they drawback from the central town of
24 Vares. They had even attacked an ambulance very clearly marked with
25 a red cross. I gave
1 a company commander permission to leave the town at that time, but to
2 defend the tunnel between the town and my company so we would not be
4 I also gave him an order to talk with the brigade commander,
5 Ivica Rajic, and tell him that from now we will always only have live
6 firing, no warning shots any more, and he did it. There was a lot of
7 shooting over the camp but not at the camp during this night. On the
8 morning I gave the company commander an order to deploy in central Vares
9 again. I went myself to on the Serb side to Zvornik where we had planned
10 negotiation with the Serbs.
11 When I came back late in the afternoon to my headquarter, I got
12 the message from my staff that my units in Vares has been forced to leave
13 central town again after a very heavy threat
14 from the Croats, and at that time we had another problem, and that was
15 about 250 Muslim men jailed up in the town into schools in central town.
16 We had deployed patrols outside these schools but they had been forced
18 Then I ordered the company to redeploy in Tuzla but on safer --
19 in Vares but on safer spots outside and higher up so that they could look
20 in the town and still have control without any risk, and went off from
21 Tuzla to Vares. On the night, on 25th, I met Ivica Rajic again with my
22 company commander -- sorry, I did not met Ivica Rajic then, I met Bozic,
23 his second in command. He said: "I am now appointed Brigade Commander".
24 I asked: "Where is Ivica Rajic?" He did not tell me. He was back in
25 Kiseljak or something like that, he told me. He said everything is
1 solved. The UNMO, UN concern, had been let into Stupni Do, and I did not
2 know about that, but my company commander told me that that was only
3 partly true. They had been let in by Ivica Rajic, but just to the first
4 two houses where they found, as I learned, two dead bodies and then Ivica
5 Rajic had stopped the visit in Stupni Do.
6 So I still demanded to came into Stupni Do and Bozic promised us
7 to come in, and we pointed a meeting at 9 o'clock in the morning and then
8 we should go into Stupni Do at 2 o'clock
9 p.m. and at the same time we should be let in to see the situation of the
10 prisoner in the town.
11 At that time we did not trust them at all, so we had already
12 planned for an action to take us into Stupni Do, whether the Croat allowed
13 us or not. So, 9 o'clock, I went to the Bobovac Brigade again. At the
14 same time I ordered two platoons to go towards Vares on two different
15 routes, one from the north and one from the west. When I came to the
16 Bobovac Brigade, as usual the brigade commander was not there, he was not
17 prepared to meet me, but I stuck to it and demanded to see him. After
18 some minutes he was there and they said: "Well, you are allowed to come
19 in but without gun and without machine gun of my interpreter", and I
20 denied, "If you do not want me, will let me in with guns then we can
21 negotiate here out".
22 After some time they let us in with weapons and then Bozic again
23 said we will be let in but not until 2 o'clock. So we waited, but
24 some minutes before 2 o'clock where we were at the Bobovac Brigade,
25 they backed again and said: "Well, we have to wait for the ECMM
1 monitors to come in", but then I refused because I am still convinced
2 that they already had stopped them in some checkpoint that they
3 should not arrive, and with my threat then they stopped it and we
4 went away to Stupni Do.
5 Q. The last conversation you had when you were informed that the ECMM
6 were coming, who was that with?
7 A. That was with Bozic. At this time Ivica Rajic was not able, but
8 both on Monday night and now we had a very strong feeling he was in
9 the house, and after the meeting on Monday evening where Bozic had
10 been rather co-operative, after some hours we got a threat letter
11 from the same brigade that if we did not stop this we should be wiped
12 out from earth so that was always, first, they agreed and then they
14 Q. I see.
15 A. We came up to the last checkpoints near Stupni Do, and I went with
16 my platoon which came in from the north. My military assistant,
17 Major Eckenheim, he had a patrol from NORDBAT and from the UNMOs,
18 from ECMM, which went to the schools, even I think with people from
19 Red Cross. When we arrived to the last checkpoint we were stopped
20 again, and they told us that, first, they would not let us in at all,
21 then I said: "I will go in".
22 They said: "Yes, but only with one vehicle" but they still refused
23 to remove the mines and then I said: "If you do not remove the mine,
24 I will shoot them away", and then they moved them off. I had
25 ordered my platoon commander which was behind me to come in half a
1 metre behind very close together, all vehicles, so we then got in
2 very rapid with all four vehicles into Stupni Do.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. That happened about 3 o'clock p.m.
5 Q. On 25th?
6 A. On 26th.
7 Q. 26th?
8 A. Yes, on 25th, that was Monday. Then we still were refused to come
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. This was on 26th.
12 Q. And the attack was on 20 -----
13 A. 23rd.
14 Q. Now you tell the court about what you saw in Stupni Do when you went
15 in there?
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Brigadier General, if I may ask you a few questions
17 before you get
18 to that point to see if I understand your testimony: on October 23rd
19 you were in Kiseljak-- pronounce it for me?
20 A. Kiseljak.
21 Q. And Kiseljak was controlled by the Bosnian Croats?
22 A. Yes, but UN headquarter of Bosnia was situated in Kiseljak and that
23 is where I were.
24 Q. That was controlled by whom?
25 A. The town of Kiseljak was controlled by the Croats, but the UN
1 headquarter was under UN control.
2 Q. I understand. You learned first about the attack on Stupni Do from
3 a BiH commander?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He told you that the Bosnian Croats had attacked Stupni Do?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That would have been on 23rd or 24th when you learned?
8 A. 23rd.
9 Q. 23rd?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know who was in charge of the Bobovac Brigade before Rajic?
12 A. Well, I do not have his name. I had met him, but in the testimony
13 from my company commander I think his name is in that.
14 Q. Pardon me?
15 A. I think the name are known by the Tribunal in the testimony from my
16 company commander.
17 Q. It is not really important. What is important, though, is that at
18 one point you were told that Rajic had taken over and was then the
19 commander, is that not so, of the Bobovac Brigade?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that correct?
22 A. I learned that from my company commander on 23rd when I came up to
23 Vares about 6 o'clock p.m.
24 Q. And the Bobovac Brigade is regular Bosnian Croat army?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. They were based in Vares?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You testified that at one point you met Rajic and he had a gang of
4 extremists with him?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Then you described these extremists as -- why do you not repeat that
7 for me tell me what you mean by "extremists"?
8 A. People with no conscience and dressed, well, if you see those
9 motorcycle bands, about that, with skin clothing, but with machine
10 guns, knives, hand grenades, pistols, with no common uniform, mainly
11 black clothing.
12 Q. Did they wear white bands on their arms or somewhere, do you know?
13 A. I cannot remember that just now.
14 Q. But they were dressed in black?
15 A. Yes, mainly.
16 Q. Carrying knives?
17 A. Mainly, yes.
18 Q. Knives? They did not look -----
19 A. Knives, machine guns and everything they could take.
20 Q. When you say Rajic had them with him, what do you mean by that?
21 A. They arrived at the same time as Rajic, and we got that information
22 both from our own observations, from our soldiers and even from the
23 HVO soldiers which was not very happy with this.
24 Q. Where did they arrive?
25 A. I do not know exactly, but they must have come over Serbian
1 territory from Kiseljak.
2 Q. Where were they? When you say "they arrived", they arrived where,
3 at the checkpoint?
4 A. In the whole town of Vares, we had them. They moved around, but we
5 saw them often at the headquarter of the Bobovac Brigade, the same
6 men which we later met down in the town in checkpoints and so on, and
7 they were very aggressive and some of them sometimes said: "Well,
8 you are not allowed to come into Stupni Do because we have some
9 cleaning to do before".
10 Q. How do you know that commander Rajic was in charge of these
12 A. Because he said it, very obvious and even -----
13 Q. What did he say?
14 A. He said he commanded the Bobovac Brigade. He had control over the
15 area and his headquarter was guarded by those guys. We saw the same
16 cars at this hotel which was their headquarter. I saw them inside
17 this restaurant which served as headquarter, and they were in the
18 restaurant part at the same time we negotiated in a part of this
19 restaurant. So they are jostling together. They did what he said to
21 Q. Did you hear that?
22 A. Yes, of course.
23 Q. Give me an example.
24 A. No, because he commanded them.
25 Q. OK. He commanded them, you say, because they were there in the
1 headquarters and he had said that he was commander of the Bobovac
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. They were there occupying the same place as the Bobovac Brigade; is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you said that he had a gang of these extremists whom you had
8 seen in the Bobovac Brigade headquarters at a check point, is that
9 correct, with him?
10 A. At the checkpoint, not with Rajic.
11 Q. He was not there at that point?
12 A. No, no.
13 Q. But they were the same ones ---
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- that you had seen at the Bobovac Brigade headquarters?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE VOHRAH: General, I have no knowledge of military matters. When you
18 talk of a brigade, how big a force would that be?
19 A. I cannot answer that question because all brigades down here is
20 different, but if I said it is something like in between 500 to 2,500
21 men, and I think the Bobovac brigades consisted of about 800 men, or
22 something like that.
23 Q. Then when you used the expression "extremists", you did not mean by
24 that people with any special political views? You described them in
25 terms of their dress?
1 A. No, you can in this case only guess because we had no political
2 discussion about it.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So when you were at that checkpoint then, when you
4 saw these extremists that you have described -- I am looking at your
5 statement that is part of the material that was submitted to Judge
6 Sidhwa -- you say "the extremists said they had 'some cleansing to
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you recall them saying that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How did you interpret that word?
12 A. From my interpreter, Sergeant Eckenheim.
13 Q. When you heard the word "cleansing" what did that mean to you?
14 A. It meant that they were, well, removing, whether they did burning,
15 perhaps, bodies and taking bodies away the evidence in Stupni Do.
16 That was what I thought was meant with their saying.
17 Q. That was on October 24th, the day after the attack on Stupni Do?
18 A. I remember not the exact day, yes.
19 Q. But it was after the attack?
20 A. Yes, it was after. I think it was on Monday, but I am not quite
22 Q. Did you later on October 26th speak with some refugees from Stupni
24 A. Not myself, but on 26th in the morning I had sent out a patrol to
25 pick up refugees from Stupni Do south of Vares, because the commander
1 in Dabravine has asked us to do it because it was Croat controlled
2 area and he knew that there was about 30 refugees, he said, so I sent
3 my MA with some APCs, I think six in the morning, and they found 25
4 refugees which they brought down to Dabravine.
5 Q. Do you recall saying in the statement that you submitted that was a
6 part of the material presented to Judge Sidhwa that, "Two young
7 women stated that Stupni Do was attacked by regular fighting but in
8 the evening the 'butchers arrived' and there was burning, looting,
9 raping and killing. The two women both about 20 years old said that
10 they had been raped". Do you recall making that statement?
11 A. Yes, and I got that information from Major Ekberg who was in charge
12 of this operation. I got it in second-hand.
13 Q. OK. You do not know who these "butchers" were, do you, who were
14 identified as butchers?
15 A. No, not the exact person, but I am very sure that it was extremists
16 from Kiseljak and Kakang.
17 Q. The same extremists you described before ---
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- as having been at the Bobavac Brigade headquarters ---
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- is that correct, and then the ones you saw at the HVO check
23 A. Yes.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have nothing further at this time. You are moving
25 into another area, Mr. Ostberg?
1 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, thank you. (To the witness): What I would like you to
2 tell the court is what you actually saw when you more or less
3 forcibly entered Stupni Do with your platoon?
4 A. Yes, I saw a totally destroyed village. I think it was around 54
5 houses in that village, all of
6 them more or less destroyed. We rather soon run into dead people,
7 burnt bodies. We found three killed women in a cellar and I spent
8 about 30 minutes at that time in Stupni Do because I had to hurry up
9 to Dabravine to report to the UG to stop any further
10 attacks. So I then left Stupni Do after seeing enough. Then we sent
11 in two platoons which guarded Stupni Do until the investigation team
13 Q. Did you walk through the whole village of Stupni Do?
14 A. Yes, not the whole, but mainly, the main part of the village I saw
16 Q. Yes, thank you. You can see from the map that this is one road
17 running through the village with houses on either side of the road?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So you walked this main road through?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How many houses did you enter?
22 A. I entered I think one, but we were very cautious here because it was
23 a big risk for
24 booby-traps; that is mines or something like that. So we waited for
25 a mine clearing team to come in.
1 Q. When you said the houses were destroyed, by fire, by grenades, by
2 shooting, with other weapons, in what way?
3 A. They were so destroyed that it was hard to see after that short
4 examination, but mainly by fire and perhaps explosion brought in and
5 attached by people inside. But it was not mainly done by shelling;
6 it was by burning and perhaps explosives on the place.
7 Q. So, would you by that say that the houses were set on fire?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Have you any idea what kinds of methods they used to set them on
11 A. No. I can just guess.
12 Q. I recall you saying somewhere that you said some special colour of
14 A. No. Well, I cannot recall that, but it was very heavy smoke in the
15 town, and I think then that the investigator was rather confused in
16 some aspects because it must have been a very high heat in some
18 Q. Did you see some people?
19 A. At that time, no, no people.
20 Q. Cattle?
21 A. Some cattle, yes.
22 Q. Living?
23 A. Living and hurt and dead cattle.
24 Q. All kinds: hurt, dead and living cattle?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you estimate how many cows or sheep or whatever it was?
2 A. No, I did not count them, but it was something between zero and 10.
3 Q. You said that you entered at least one house. Did you find
4 something special?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you see any dead bodies in this house?
7 A. Not in the house, no. What I saw was I think two burned bodies
8 outside the houses, and then women in the cellar. That was what I
9 personally saw.
10 Q. But no people in the village; no refugees or somebody coming,
11 walking, civilians?
12 A. No, nothing.
13 Q. You talked about refugees being -- if I recall correctly ----
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. --- you said something about refugees?
16 A. Yes. On the morning of 26th we picked up 25 refugees south of
17 Stupni Do.
18 Q. Outside Stupni Do?
19 A. Outside Stupni Do, and they had fled Stupni Do when the assault was
21 Q. So they were coming down from the ----
22 A. From the hills.
23 Q. --- from the hills?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Outside Stupni Do?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So you did not rescue any refugees inside Stupni Do?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mentioned some other units. When you went in, were you the
5 first on the spot?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Then what kind of a UN or other units did enter Stupni Do?
8 A. Well, behind me were one of my own platoons and when I left Stupni
9 Do the other way out I ordered another platoon which were blocked on
10 another mine, mine checkpoint, to go over the railway and join the
11 other platoon. So at about 16 hours I had two platoons up in Stupni
12 Do, and they stayed I think until 27th or 28th where we got
13 reinforcement from a British Company under Major Hunter because my
14 soldiers were then very worn out.
15 Q. Understandable. Will you, before I conclude my questioning,
16 summarise your meetings with Ivica Rajic? How many were they in
18 A. They were I think four in total: two on the evening of 23rd and two
19 on Sunday 24th. On 25th it was Bozic who said, "I am the new Brigade
20 Commander", but my company commander had more meetings with Ivica
21 Rajic than I had.
22 Q. Do you think that another shift of Commander of the Bobovac Brigade
23 did take place, or did you believe what Bozic said, that he was now
24 the new commander?
25 A. No. I am convinced that we had Ivica Rajic in the rooms on the
1 other side of the wall saying to Bozic what he should do. That is my
3 Q. Was there any hesitation in your mind of who was in charge of the
4 HVO forces during and after the raid of Stupni Do?
5 A. No.
6 Q. That was Ivica Rajic?
7 A. Yes. When we first met the first time we discussed a little about
8 what had happened, and the right to do it and so on, and he pointed
9 on his jacket where he had a black mark and said, "Do you know what
10 this is?" "No", I said. "Well, this is a sign of anybody who has
11 lost a close relative" or what he said, "so I have the right for
12 this." But it is ----
13 Q. How long did you stay in the area with your battalion?
14 A. You mean at all? I left ----
15 Q. After this, after this event, after the end of October, did you stay
17 A. We left Bosnia at the end of, well, in the end of March, beginning
18 of April in '94.
19 Q. Have you any idea what happened to Ivica Rajic, where he went, after
20 the Stupni Do event?
21 A. Yes. We heard rumours or I would say it was more information from
22 BH Command in Kiseljak that he had been seen in Kiseljak and lived
23 down there, and perhaps still was the Commander of the unit in
25 Q. So he had his military command even after this?
1 A. That is what I heard, but in that case I think BH Command can answer
2 better than I.
3 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you. Thank you, General. I have no further
4 questions. Thank you, your Honour.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Brigadier General Henricssion, you are
6 excused. Thank you for coming today.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 (The witness withdrew).
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Ostberg, would you call your next witness,
11 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, we would be happy to proceed. Our next witness is
12 Sergeant Ekenheim also a Swedish soldier.
13 SERGEANT RUZDI EKENHEIM, Called.
14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare I will speak the truth, the whole truth
15 and nothing but the truth.
16 (The witness was sworn).
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honour.
19 EXAMINED BY MR. OSTBERG.
20 MR. OSTBERG: Your name is Ruzdi Ekenheim?
21 A. That is correct, sir.
22 Q. Will you tell the court what you are doing, what occupation is for
23 the moment? What
24 do you do?
25 A. At the moment I am a sales rep.
1 Q. A sales representative?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. OK. Will you give us a very short summary of your military
5 A. I served with the Swedish Army between 1988/89 as a conscript.
6 Further on I signed up again in 1992 to go to Yugoslavia.
7 Q. On a UN mission?
8 A. On a UN peacekeeping mission.
9 Q. With NORDBAT?
10 A. No. That was with a Swedish headquarters company that was
11 established from the beginning in Sarajevo and then moved to
12 Belgrade, then moved to Zagreb.
13 Q. This was which year did you say?
14 A. That was in September '92.
15 Q. '92.
16 A. Actually from 1st September.
17 Q. I see. Your service with the UN, as what were you hired?
18 A. I served as Assistant Interpreter, bodyguard and so on for first for
19 Brigadier General Pellnas [sic] who was chief UNMO. I served with him
20 for one year. Right after that I went to NORDBAT 2; same
21 occupation, I worked for Brigadier Henricsson.
22 Q. Interpreter and assistant?
23 A. And bodyguard.
24 Q. Bodyguard?
25 A. And so on.
1 Q. Then with the rank as Sergeant as today or had you some other rank
3 A. No, the same rank. I was made Second Lieutenant. I refused to
4 become an officer and moved back to Sergeant.
5 Q. I see. You said that you served as an interpreter. Will you tell
6 the court something about your lingual abilities?
7 A. I speak Serbo-Croatian, Serbian-Croatian Bosnian, whatever. I
8 understand Macedonian, Russian, German, English, Swedish.
9 Q. How come you speak so many languages? Tell us of your origin?
10 A. My origin?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. I was born on July 11th 1967 in New York City, New York State,
13 United States of America.
14 Q. So?
15 A. My grandparents on my mother's side come from Sarajevo and Osijek in
16 Croatia. My biological father is from Montenegro. My mother was
17 born in Austria, raised in Argentina and lives in Sweden.
18 Q. You are certainly a real cocktail!
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. With your work with the UN it was important that you spoke
21 Serbian-Croatian and English of course?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Apart from Swedish.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Tell me about your services with General Henricsson whom we have
1 just listened to in this
2 court. When did you join him?
3 A. I started work for him on September 27th 1993. The first time I met
4 him was on the frontline in Kiseljak; North Eastern Bosnia.
5 Q. What date was that?
6 A. September 27th.
7 Q. 27th September?
8 A. I started working for him on 27th and I met him on 29th.
9 Q. And you stayed with Henricsson?
10 A. I stayed with him and his predecessor, Colonel Svensson who became
11 Battalion Commander after him, up until NORDBAT 2, up until July 15th
13 Q. Did you then quit your service?
14 A. Then I went back to Sweden and stayed there for eight weeks and got
15 assigned a new mission, to observe a mission in Serbia.
16 Q. And went on?
17 A. Until March 1st '95.
18 Q. OK. Then we know what you have been doing with the UN. Now we will
19 take you to the environment of Vares in October 1993. Tell me
20 exactly what were your duties there then in October 1993?
21 A. At that particular time around Stupni Do incident and Vares
22 incident, we had been down to Kiseljak, BH Command, and we went up to
23 visit the Canadian Battalion Headquarters. I was there accompanying
24 the Brigadier.
25 Q. Travelling with him in the same ----
1 A. Travelling with him.
2 Q. --- in the same vehicle?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Did you do the driving also?
5 A. No, not at the moment.
6 Q. Tell us which day will you say this was going when you travelled
7 like you said?
8 A. I am pretty bad on dates, so I would say this is day one of the
10 Q. OK. We have fixed 23rd October for the event of Stupni Do.
11 A. That it is the 23rd October.
12 Q. Then I will ask you to tell me when you first did any observation
13 pertaining to the village of Stupni Do?
14 A. The first observation was when we were supposed to leave the
15 Canadian camp in Viseko.
16 Q. In Viseko?
17 A. In Viseko south of the Vares area, north of Viseko. We bumped into
18 some observers, UNMOs, who told us that the road ahead was blocked.
19 I received orders from the Brigadier to go up north through the road
20 to see what was going on and see if the road real was blocked. I
21 came up to a village called Simin Han, that is Simin Han, Pajtov Han,
22 that is about 7 klicks south of Vares.
23 When I got up there and I noticed there was a combat zone ahead
24 of me, I contacted the nearest Bosnian Army Headquarters to find out
25 what was going on, and if we could pass through the area. At first
1 we were denied because the combat zone moved south of my own location
2 eventually. I started arguing with them, but finally got ahead to
3 go. Went back to Kiseljak, picked up the Brigadier and a convoy that
4 was standing there.
5 Q. When you made this trip was that on your own or were you travelling
6 with someone else in
7 the car?
8 A. I had a Swedish observer with me at that time.
9 Q. In the car?
10 A. Yes, sir, but that was myself from the Unit. I went back, picked up
11 the Brigadier, the convoy. We came up to this village again and was
12 stopped because the fighting had intensified along the road. At
13 first we were denied clearance to go through. We got the clearance,
14 moved ahead about another 3 klicks. If you do not understand what I
15 am saying "klicks"?
16 Q. We do not. Please explain?
17 A. "Klicks" is kilometres.
18 Q. Now we know. Klicks.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If I told you I do not know what a kilometre is, how
20 do you translate that? I am learning though!
21 THE WITNESS: A kilometre is about a thousand yards; maybe a bit less than
22 that. About 14, 1500 yards. Is that right?
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It sounds good to me!
24 MR. OSTBERG: I am not used to yards! Ten kilometres is 6.2 miles I am
25 informed from my American friend here.
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK.
2 MR. OSTBERG: Now we know. Use the term "kilometre" for my understanding.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So I know what you are talking about.
5 A. Then we were stopped again at another check point, the whole convoy,
6 and we refused to go further on. Fighting was about 150, 200 metres
7 ahead of us intensifying. There was a dead man by the road, a dead
8 cow. Some mortar grenade had just exploded there about two minutes
9 before our arrival. After a couple of minutes the Brigadier decided
10 to turn back the convoy and switch men and vehicles. So we left them
11 with our unarmed vehicle and took on a Sisu, that is a normal APC.
12 We got the clearance again from the Bosnians and then we got the
13 first brief, the first part of second briefing about what was going
14 on in the area.
15 Q. Who briefed whom?
16 A. The Bosnians briefed us.
17 Q. "Us" was?
18 A. Me and the Brigadier.
19 Q. You did the interpretation?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Fine.
22 A. They told us that the Croats had attacked the village of Stupni Do
23 and that the fighting going
24 on along the road was the Bosnian attempt to come to rescue the
25 village. They begged us to
1 start an investigation and try to do what we could to stop the
2 ongoing events, which we did.
3 Q. Can you describe the ongoing events,? What did you observe of these
4 ongoing events?
5 A. May I ----
6 Q. No, I do not think you have to use the map. Tell us about what you
7 saw of what was going on in Stupni Do?
8 A. From that point we could not see Stupni Do because that was on the
9 other side of the hill, but you could clearly see the smoke, the fire
10 because it was becoming dark.
11 Q. Could you hear some shooting?
12 A. You could hear shelling, the firing, more explosions, normal war
13 zone sounds.
14 Q. That is what you mean by the ongoing event?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You saw smoke, you heard firing, you heard explosions and things
17 like that?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Please go on.
20 A. Naturally the Brigadier promised to do whatever he could to look
21 into what was going on. So then we passed through the Bosnian
22 checkpoints on the way up to Vares, and there was I would say total
23 emptiness along the road. The houses along the side were burning and
24 we could see the village of Stupni Do burning in the distance. It
25 was quite dark at that time.
1 We got up to our Company headquarters. First on the way up we
2 passed a Croat checkpoint. We got up to Eighth Corps Headquarters
3 Camp and got another briefing from them what was going on in the area
4 which was almost the same thing as the Bosnian Croats. Instantly the
5 Brigadier demanded a meeting with the Commander of the Bobovac
6 Brigade who was Ivica Rajic. Later on during the evening we got the
8 Q. You met him then?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You did the interpretation between these two gentlemen, Rajic and
11 Brigadier Henricsson?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. OK.
14 A. Eventually ----
15 Q. Tell the court -- what we have heard so far in this court today is
16 what you interpreted. So tell us now again how did Rajic introduce
18 A. He introduced himself as Ivica Rajic, Commander of the Bobavac
19 Brigade. He recently replaced the old Brigade Commander and he said
20 he was from a Special Police Unit from Kiseljak.
21 Q. That was the way he introduced himself?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Thank you. Please go on?
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He said he was in charge of Special Police?
25 A. He was from a special police unit Kiseljak.
1 Q. Do you know what that Special Police Unit was?
2 A. Sorry, your Honour. They call everything "police", everything
3 "Special Forces", "Special Police". The definition of "Special
4 Forces", "Special Police" in Bosnia is very wide.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: The Brigadier asked to get the information from their point
7 of view, what was going on in and around the Stupni Do area. We were
8 told that he thought, he knew actually, that the Bosnian Army was
9 going to launch a major attack over the village of Stupni Do, that
10 they had assembled a large quantity of soldiers, equipment and so on
11 south of the village. That was naturally false.
12 Q. How did the Brigadier General react to this information?
13 A. He said it was bullshit.
14 Q. Clear enough. Please go on.
15 A. Because there would not be such as that in the area. Since we had
16 just arrived from south of Vares to Stupni Do we had been eyewitness
17 to what was happening along the road. Ivica Rajic continued to say
18 that we have the right information, this is some intelligence,
19 Special Forces intelligence again and stuff like that. The Brigadier
20 said: "This is not right. We have the proper information. There is
21 no attack going on here and we demand that we have a ceasefire right
22 away." First Rajic agreed upon that, to have a ceasefire, then he
23 changed his mind again and said that there would be no ceasefire.
24 After a couple of arguments he agreed to having a ceasefire later on
25 the same night, but then demanded that we go to the Bosnians and get
1 a ceasefire from their side and have them stop any major attack over
2 Stupni Do. The Brigadier approved of this. We went back to the
3 Bosnians and they did not have any major attack ongoing. They were
4 just curious to know what was happening with the people, civilians in
5 Stupni Do, since there were no military installations, no military at
6 all; it was just a village.
7 Q. OK.
8 A. So they actually agreed right away to have the ceasefire. We went
9 back, supposed to go back up to the Croats in the Bobovac Brigade to
10 deliver the message. On the way up we got stopped at an HVO
11 checkpoint. After a minute, a minute and a half, we smashed the
12 checkpoint. We went further up a couple of klicks where we met, came
13 up to another checkpoint.
14 Q. Again "kilometres"?
15 A. Kilometres, sorry, where we came to another checkpoint. We got
16 stopped again. This time they put mines in front of us. They said we
17 had no authorisation to pass up to Vares through a checkpoint, and
18 the only person who could give us that permission was Ivica Rajic.
19 He was not present at the time. The Brigadier got pissed and said:
20 "We have to get through here. Either you move the mines or we will
21 do the results." They got the in touch
22 with the headquarters and again said, "No, you can't pass." So me and
23 the Brigadier jumped out of the APC and we moved the mines ourselves.
24 Then we went back into the APC, went up to Bobovac Brigade
25 Headquarters and met Ivica Rajic, told him that the Bosnians have
1 agreed upon the ceasefire, they have no major, no attacks whatsoever
2 that is ongoing or imminent. He did not believe it at first and then
3 he said "OK, ceasefire". Then we started arguing about the time of
4 the ceasefire.
5 We want an immediate ceasefire; they want it the next day. Then we
6 started discussing what the details of the ceasefire. They wanted us
7 to set up soldiers from our own unit in the village of Stupni Do; the
8 best case being in Stupni Do with their own vehicles. First, Ivica
9 Rajic agreed upon that. Then he changed his mind and said "No". The
10 next suggestion was that we should go up in our APCs to the beginning
11 of the village on the northern side; park our vehicles there and put
12 the civilians in there; have them walking out
13 from other buildings from the same village, walk them up to our APCs
14 and then take them inside. It was dark; it was in the middle of the
15 night. We refused, the Brigadier refused, because that would have
16 been a suicide mission. The impression we had that is what they
17 were waiting for.
18 Q. On the evening of the first day?
19 A. The evening of the first night; the first day.
20 Q. Then? Then we turn to the next morning?
21 A. We are not done yet.
22 Q. You are not done yet?
23 A. We are not done yet. Then we started arguing with him about that
24 and he went berserk, upset, I should say, he did not want to continue
25 the meeting. So we went back to the Bosnians to inform them what was
1 going on and how far they had gotten. When we went back to the
2 Bosnians they were kind of hysterical because they were receiving
3 more information about what was going on in Stupni Do. The
4 information we received that there was slaughtering of civilians.
5 That was about 3 o'clock, 3.30 in the morning. There
6 was not much else we could do at that time.
7 At the same time we received information from the local
8 commander that there was a group of refugees on a hill across the
9 graveyard on the way up to Vares, and he asked us to do what we could to
10 save them. The Brigadier immediately responded to this first in the
11 morning, daylight. We came back to the camp at 4 o'clock in the morning.
12 At 6 o'clock I was ordered to go back and do a search and rescue mission.
13 We went out with four APCs to the approximate area where we understood
14 the refugees were available at. We blocked the road in both vans, start
15 screaming and shouting and making sounds to get the attention of the
17 After a while, about an hour, nobody came down. Two Croatian
18 soldiers came down from the other side, HVO. We took them under
19 protective custody. At the same time the refugees were coming down
20 from the mountain. They were falling down from the hill, falling
21 down into the river. We picked them up from our side, put them in
22 the APCs and went back to Simin Han, south of Vares in the area.
23 Q. How many were there?
24 A. There were 19. The youngest was about five, a girl, and the oldest
25 was about 85 years old,
1 a man. When that was done we came down to the village and dropped
2 off the refugees. Me and Major Ekberg was in charge of the search
3 and rescue unit went in to interrogate some of the refugees. We
4 picked one girl to talk to her. She told us her story -- do you want
5 me to go into that?
6 Q. Just an outline. Did you interpret the interview that Ekberg, the
7 Major, had?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Summarise what you learnt?
10 A. She got caught up by HVO soldiers, forced into a house, with the
11 first rape in front of her family's eyes, her dad, her ma, her
12 brother and boyfriend, and they told them, "One sound from you while
13 this is ongoing we're going to shoot you." After that they raped
14 her, they raped her and then this happened. Then they killed her
15 family one by one, telling her "If you cry one tear we're going to
16 shoot you. That was done to force her and a group of 13 people into
17 a building, a house, sit there, house on flames.
18 Q. With the people in it?
19 A. With the people lying in it. They found an axe in the house and got
20 out, started running to the hills, to the wood. The Croats were
21 following them in the woods. There was a lot of people running
22 around in the woods at that time. They could hear the Croats
23 following them in the woods, finding people here and shooting them on
24 the spot.
25 Q. How many people did you interview?
1 A. Two.
2 Q. Two. What you now told us was the story of the girl?
3 A. Yes. There were two girls actually. We started interviewing the
4 second one but we could not interview her because she broke up.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In your statement did you say that they raped her
6 mother as well?
7 A. No.
8 MR. OSTBERG: So that was these two interviews you took part in?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Two out of 19 people that you rescued from the hills?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Then you might go on.
13 A. Then we went back up, supposed to go back up to Vares, and we came
14 to first major checkpoint, got stopped, smashed it, continued up to
15 Vares. When we went to Vares, Maradam, that is the southern part of
16 Vares, we got blocked in a major checkpoint which was hastily set up
17 by Croatian Military Police, Croatian Units that was taking part in
18 the ongoing events. So we got stopped there. They started placing
19 people, RPGs, machine guns anti-aircraft guns in front of us and we
20 were not allowed to move either backwards or forwards. I jumped out
21 of APCs and started talking, and negotiating with them, but it was a
22 dead end.
23 Then we radioed to headquarters and asked them to get Brigadier
24 Henricsson to go to Bobovac Brigade and start negotiating with them,
25 which he did. While we were waiting for the outcome of this meeting
1 we were naturally getting ready for combat. After 40 minutes, 45
2 minutes, a guy comes up in a white Volkswagen Golf, starts screaming
3 and shouting and threatening us, if we do not leave his city he is
4 going to kill us. Then he wants to start beating me up with an RPG.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Beating you up with a what?
6 A. RPG?
7 MR. OSTBERG: What is that?
8 A. That is a grenade launcher, anti-tank.
9 Q. What is that ----
10 A. It is about 90 centimetres long. The calibre is 76 millimetres.
11 He puts it on his shoulder, blasts it off and there goes the tank.
12 Q. To beat you with?
13 A. Yes.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Was he hitting you with it or threatening?
15 A. He was attempting to do it, but the other HVO soldier at the point
16 stopped him.
17 MR. OSTBERG: So were you never beaten?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You were threatened?
20 A. Yes. At this time because two police officers at the scene, they
21 were from Vares themselves, so I overheard one of them telling the
22 other one: "If he doesn't stop within five seconds I am going to
23 shoot him myself. I don't want to lose my life because of an idiot."
24 So he was speaking of this HVO soldier. So he just jumps into his
25 car and drives off. A couple of minutes later Brigadier Henricsson
1 and I think it was Chief of Staff or something at Bobovac Brigade
2 came to the scene. We went back to Bobovac brigade to talk to Ivica
3 Rajic and negotiate with him about entering the village of Stupni Do.
4 At first he was not there. We went back to the camp, came back, he
5 showed up.
6 So at this point I think he agreed upon to letting us into the
7 village later on the same afternoon. This is day two. We were
8 supposed to meet him in the morning under -- no, that is wrong. That
9 is another day. They were supposed to take us in. He never showed
10 up. We went to Bobovac Headquarters to see his whereabouts and we
11 got the answer he was in the field, that is it.
12 Q. So you did not meet him at that time?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You did not. OK.
15 A. We went back into Vares trying to get on high ground so we could see
16 into the village of Stupni Do, because there was so much smoke at the
17 time coming from the village it was impossible to stand close and
18 watch it. You could not see anything. During this attempt to come up
19 from high ground we were kind of chased up by two HVO Croat soldiers
21 asked us to leave, "You're not supposed to seeing anything." Then we
22 went back to the camp and got a new meeting with Ivica Rajic. Then
23 he agreed to let us in the village later
24 on again at the night and we said, "Thanks, but no thanks." We
25 suggested another time while it was still daylight. He refused. On
1 several occasions during these discussions there was some tense
2 feeling, and Ivica Rajic clearly stated on several occasions, I have
4 say this in Serbian, if you do not mind? He says: "Ja sam chef ovu
5 parade" which means, "I am in charge of this parade." That is a
6 Yugoslavian expression.
7 Q. For being in charge of something going on?
8 A. Yes. It means we could not tell him what to do as well. Right after
9 that we came back to the camp. Now it was almost night time. There
10 was nothing we could do. Then we decided to -- the meeting had
11 agreed upon to let us into the village at 8 o'clock the next morning,
12 the third morning, and we were supposed to have a rendezvous south of
13 Vares, Vares Majdan is the name of the place under the railway bridge
14 where Ivica Rajic himself would escort us up to the village. We
15 showed up. No Rajic. We went back up to Bobovac Brigade
16 Headquarters. He was still in the field. Nobody knew where he was
18 They had no means of contacting him. We went back trying to get into
19 the village from different sides which was impassable because they
20 sealed off the village effectively.
21 Later on we went back again to the Bobovac Brigade Headquarters,
22 found Ivica Rajic and he then agreed upon to let us in immediately to
23 the village but only one vehicle and it was supposed to be the
24 Brigadier. We were to be escorted.
25 Q. You were in the same car?
1 A. Yes, sir. Then we were to be escorted by his own troops. When we
2 came up to checkpoint, the last checkpoint before the village, the
3 person at the checkpoint refused to clear the mines in front of us.
4 They told the security officer who was the man who followed us up
5 there, they did not take any orders from him; they only took orders
6 from Ivica Rajic. I was present at the scene when that happened,
7 when they said that. Right after that I started arguing with the
8 security, chief of security since he was only supposed to let one
9 vehicle, one APC, the Commander's APC.
10 Q. An APC is a car to transport people?
11 A. Yes, an armoured vehicle.
12 Q. How many people can be in it?
13 A. If you pack them real good 25.
14 Q. 25 at the most?
15 A. If you pack them real good, but they are made for about 12 I think,
16 excluding the crew.
17 Q. The crew is how many?
18 A. Four people.
19 Q. Thank you. OK.
20 A. So that was the first vehicle and only vehicle they were supposed to
21 let in. So then started moving, we moved the mines, and then the
22 second APC came up to so close to the Commander's APC that there was
23 no chance for them to separate the vehicles. Then the whole platoon
24 moved into the village.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Before you get to another line of questioning, Mr.
1 Ostberg, we will stand in recess for 15 minutes, please.
2 (The hearing adjourned for a short time)
3 4.25 p.m.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Ostberg?
5 MR. OSTBERG: Yes.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may continue.
7 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, thank you.
8 We now enter Stupni Do, and would you please tell us about what
9 you saw when you entered there? Tell us first of all, the whole
10 platoon, did I get that clear, the whole platoon went in?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. How many vehicles?
13 A. Our guess was about eight to 10 vehicles.
14 Q. Eight to 10 vehicles?
15 A. Somewhere there.
16 Q. How many people are we talking about?
17 A. About 35, 40, 50 people.
18 Q. Yes. Were you in the first vehicle?
19 A. I was in the first vehicle.
20 Q. With Brigadier Henricsson?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Then tell us exactly what you yourself saw and what you did when you
23 entered Stupni Do?
24 A. The first thing I did was to start searching the first house on the
25 left side to see if there was anybody in there, checking for booby
1 traps and stuff like that which they normally set out, bury down and
2 things like this.
3 Q. Give us an idea of what is a booby trap?
4 A. A booby trap is, let us say, hidden explosives which explode by
5 movement, by sound which
6 is devised to explode if somebody touches, let say, body part or
7 something else.
8 Q. To prevent people to touch things?
9 A. They want to kill you with that thing.
10 Q. If you do you are killed?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Please go on.
13 A. It is just like mines. Started searching the first house for
14 survivors and booby traps. We did not find anything there. So then
15 we just kind of started walking down the village, searching each
16 house on the side. After a couple of metres, let us say 10 to 15
17 metres, we found the first place where they burned somebody. It was
18 just a pile of ashes on the road.
19 Q. A former human being?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. As ashes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All burnt and you could identify it?
24 A. No, there were ashes.
25 Q. You could see that it had been once a human being?
1 A. Yes, sir. The next I would say another 10, 15 metres down the road
2 there was another burnt man that was laying in a ruin of an ex-house.
3 He was booby trapped by himself. He
4 had hand grenade in his armpit. That one was pretty badly damaged
5 because a lot of wild dogs had been eating him the previous days.
6 Then we were kind of in the middle of the village and started
7 searching house by house. We found three women in a basement killed.
8 Another man was lying outside in I would say in the ruins of another
10 Q. I understand that you got out of your car and did all these things,
11 you are now telling us, on
13 A. Yes, sir. Then I started kind of searching house by house together
14 with the rest of the unit, and all in all we found about 15 dead
15 people in the village. Right after this we had another unit waiting
16 on the first rendezvous point, south of Stupni Do, on the railway
17 bridge. So the Brigadier decided to go down with the APC to that
18 point and bring them up. So he went away with the APC say on the
19 northern road which leads down to the south ----
20 Q. Down to the south?
21 A. South of Vares to meet up with the APC unit down there. I decided to
22 walk the whole village and through, let us say, bits, pieces of the
23 forest by myself to see if I could find something along the road,
24 either bodies, corpses or booby traps, mines.
25 Q. Were you now out of the main street of Stupni Do?
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Was it on or outside?
3 A. Outside the main street of Stupni Do.
4 Q. OK. On the back side of a line of houses or something like that?
5 A. There were no houses in between Stupni Do and Vares.
6 Q. OK.
7 A. At that point I came down to the rendezvous point, about the same
8 time as the Brigadier did, and there were two HVO soldiers guarding
9 the road. They placed mines in front of the same railway track.
10 The Commander told them to remove the mines so we could pass up to
11 the village. They refused. Said: "We can only take orders from
12 Ivica Rajic." The Commander said that they should be stupid because
13 we were already in the village. They could see our vehicles in the
14 village. We came from the village.
15 Q. You went out in the other direction and then you had people going in
16 from the other direction?
17 A. We came from northern side, passed through the village, down through
18 the southern side where we met up down in Vares.
19 Q. They would not let you in from the southern side?
20 A. No.
21 Q. OK.
22 A. Because the last orders they had received from Ivica Rajic was to
23 not let us in to Stupni Do. We just told them that this was just
24 stupid because we were already in the village. If they turned around
25 they would see our vehicles in the village, and we obviously came
1 from the village. They still refused. The Brigadier got kind of fed
2 up with the situation and ordered the APCs to pass over the railway
3 tracks which they did and then drove up to the village. The two HVO
4 soldiers were kind of stupid just standing there and guarding
5 nothing, so they just packed up and left.
6 Q. That means that the forces of your battalion entered from two
7 different directions?
8 A. Eventually, yes.
9 Q. Eventually, into the village. Are there other things you can tell
10 us about your observations in Stupni Do? You were telling us about
11 15 dead people, burnt people. The two burnt you found at the
12 beginning are they included in the 15?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Tell us something about the houses? Were they burnt or shot at or
16 A. They were exploded. It was just ruins.
17 Q. Was there any building in the city left unhurt?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you see any living person or living animal there?
20 A. No.
21 Q. No living animal either?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you see many dead animals?
24 A. Yes, there were dead animals on the, let us say, fields, on the
25 road, among the houses. Everything was killed.
1 Q. Killed, shot?
2 A. Shot, burnt, sliced up throats, whatever you want to call it.
3 Q. So there were no living creatures of any kind left in Stupni Do
4 after the attack?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. Thank you. I would like you to sum up for the court how many
7 meetings you did have with the accused in this case, Ivica Rajic.
8 How many times did you meet him?
9 A. I met him on six to eight occasions.
10 Q. Six to eight?
11 A. Yes, at least.
12 Q. Even when Brigadier Henricsson was not with you, you met him even
14 A. No.
15 Q. No, always with him and to interpret for him?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Not for any other Commander or Officer?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. You estimated six to eight ----
20 A. Times.
21 Q. --- times. OK. Is there any question in your mind who was the
22 Commanding Officer?
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. No nothing?
25 A. No, sir.
1 Q. OK. Fine. I will ask you one concluding question pertaining to the
2 question of the classification of the conflict, and that is: did you
3 in your duties as an interpreter or in any other context make any
4 observation to the involvement of the Croatian Army or the Croatian
5 State in the HVO?
6 A. Do you mean particularly in this case or in total?
7 Q. Well, you can take it generally.
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Like what?
10 A. One example is, that has to be in spring time '93, we were in a
11 village called Trevinja that is western Bosnia, Serb held, on a
12 meeting with the Commander of that area on the Serb side.
13 Q. Who were you accompanying then?
14 A. Brigadier General Pellnas [sic]. They clearly stated that Croatian
15 Army had gone in about 3 or 4 kilometres into Bosnia on the north
16 eastern side of Dubrovnik in order to prevent the Serbs from shelling
17 the Dubrovnik area. That was then confirmed by the Croatian Army
18 Liaison Officer in Dubrovnik.
19 Q. Did you experience this in your capacity of an interpreter?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Have you any more examples?
22 A. The next one is the latest, one of the latest offences made by the
23 Croatian Army in it has to
24 be summer '94 I think when they took a part of the area around Mostar
25 and helped out the Bosnian troops in Bihac area. At that time the
1 Croatian Army troop unit ----
2 Q. The Croatian?
3 A. Army unit moved into a city village called Kuplitz. On the TV shots
4 from those scenes you
5 could see insignias of Croatian Army units.
6 Q. That is in Bosnia?
7 A. That is in Bosnia.
8 Q. I recall from your statement that you had some experience to help
9 some tanks be permitted to cross the border from Croatia into Bosnia?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Could you tell us about that?
12 A. That was a tank company from NORDBAT 2 who was supposed to go to our
13 deployment area in Northern Bosnia which I was told by the UN had
14 sold out by the UN as well. So we had take to them from Serbia down
15 to via Hungary, Italy, down to Split.
16 Q. All around Bosnia?
17 A. All around ex Yugoslavia. They were a couple of months late, about
18 four or five month late in the theatre. My task was to go down to
19 Split, pick up this company of tanks together with the Mechanized
20 Infantry company and guide them through Bosnia and make sure they got
21 through checkpoints, up to the deployment area, area of
22 responsibility for the battalion. I had in my hand a piece of paper
23 signed by it was Deputy Minister of Interior in Croatia stating that
24 the Croats should just leave these tanks alone and let them pass.
25 However, then the UN forbid us to bring up the tanks to Bosnia. The
1 explanation from Mr. Kirshee was that the Croats had made some
2 problems with that. That is not true. I had the paper in my hand.
3 So the Mechanized Infantry company came up to Tuzla
4 and the tanks company had to stay on at Split for another couple, two
5 months I think.
6 Q. Then what happened?
7 A. Then I went back up to -- that is all in January/February '94. Then
8 I had to go back up to my unit to the Brigadier, and after two weeks
9 I was sent to Mount Igman; one of the companies got the task to go to
10 Mount Igman in Sarajevo and reinforce that when NATO this no fly
11 zone, and no shelling, safe areas of Sarajevo.
12 Q. You tell us now that has anything to do with the HVO or Croatian
13 involvement in Bosnia?
14 A. No.
15 Q. No. So we have no more examples from that kind of thing like HVO
17 A. It should be Mostar in Spring '93.
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. I was present with Brigadier Pellnas [sic] in Mostar in '93, and
20 there was some fighting going on. The fighting had just started in
21 Mostar. We were present there and there was some contact between
22 Zagreb to Mostar on HV side, on HVO side, to get them to start a
23 ceasefire. They were more or less taking orders from Zagreb.
24 Q. How do you know that?
25 A. I was in the meeting rooms when this took place. When they called
1 they would say to Zagreb. I saw the number they were dialling, the
2 area code, whatever.
3 Q. You could hear the conversation?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. You understood the conversation?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. There is no question that it was in contact with Zagreb on these
9 A. No, sir. I also met General Rosso.
10 Q. General?
11 A. Rosso in Zagreb, the Ministry of Defence. If he is not fighting
12 with them he has got nothing to do there.
13 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you. I have no further questions.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think I have one question. I listened to I think
15 four instances or four examples that you gave us that you believe
16 support your opinion that Croatia was involved in the conflict.
17 A. Yes, ma'am.
18 Q. Is that correct? I did have may hair cut about a few weeks ago!
19 The one you mentioned was in, is it Trevinja?
20 A. Trevinja.
21 Q. Where is that located in comparison to Vares? It is on the coast
23 A. It is inside of the coast.
24 Q. It is a good distance, is it not, from Vares?
25 A. It is down here, Trevinja, and you have Vares up here.
1 Q. Do you have any evidence that Croatia was involved in the area of
2 the conflict that was going on in Vares and Stupni Do?
3 A. There were insignias of some of the troops in the Vares area, was a
4 Croatian Army unit.
5 Q. Is that HV?
6 A. HV.
7 Q. You saw those insignias?
8 A. Yes, ma'am.
9 Q. They were inside Bosnia-Herzegovina?
10 A. They were right in here.
11 Q. In Vares? Pardon me?
12 A. They were right there, here, the middle of Bosnia.
13 Q. Is that Vares you are pointing to?
14 A. That is Vares.
15 Q. Pardon me?
16 A. That is Vares.
17 Q. When was this that you saw them?
18 A. That was during those events among Stupni Do and Vares, escalation
19 later on, about a week later on.
20 Q. Did you see them ever with Rajic in his presence?
21 A. Maybe not as a unit. You could see one or two soldiers sitting in
22 the dining room because the place of the whole meeting room was about
23 6 metres, 7 metres away from their dining
25 Q. And was the dining room in the Bobovac Headquarters?
1 A. Yes, ma'am.
2 Q. So you would see HV soldiers, that is soldiers in Croatian uniform,
3 in the Bobovac Headquarters?
4 A. Yes, ma'am.
5 Q. During the time of the Stupni Do matter?
6 A. Yes, ma'am. I do not know if I can say this, but to move around
7 about 250 troops in and out through Vares, you cannot do that if you
8 do not have the permission of Serbs on the other side. You cannot
9 get the Serbs to agree upon that without Mladic knowing it and Mladic
10 has in that case a deal with the Croats.
11 Q. That is because to go from Vares and from Kiseljak?
12 A. Kiseljak.
13 Q. I am having difficulty -- to Stupni Do, you are saying that you
14 would have to go through, you would have to have gone in October 1993
15 through Serbian controlled areas?
16 A. If you do not go through the Bosnian government controlled areas,
17 and they will not let through 250 HVO troops.
18 Q. Obviously. So the only other way would be to go through Serbian,
19 Bosnian-Serbian held territories?
20 A. Yes, ma'am.
21 Q. That could only have been with the permission of them?
22 A. Yes, ma'am.
23 Q. You are saying that that kind of permission would have to come from
24 someone pretty high up in the Bosnian Serbian Army?
25 A. Mladic at least. Nobody else.
1 Q. If the troops then came from, the HVO troops, came from Vares or
2 Kiseljak to Stupni Do, then they would have to have come through
3 Bosnian-Serbian controlled areas?
4 A. Yes, ma'am.
5 Q. OK. It is your information that they did come from Kiseljak?
6 A. There was no other place to come from.
7 Q. Why is that? There was no other ----
8 A. From a transport location.
9 Q. Tell me again?
10 A. From a transport point of view. But if you mean were the units
11 actually came from the beginning?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. I was told that the units during the massacre in Stupni Do was HVO
14 Kakanj. They came out of Kiseljak to Stupni Do. The unit originally
15 came from Kakanj.
16 Q. Spell that for me?
17 A. K-A-K-A-N-J. That is just next to Vares up there. You have Vares
18 there and Kakanj right there.
19 Q. So they came from Kakanj?
20 A. To Kiseljak.
21 Q. To Kiseljak and then from there where?
22 A. To Vares.
23 Q. And from Vares to Stupni Do?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How do you know that?
1 A. I talked to them.
2 Q. Who told you that?
3 A. A soldier, just major soldier.
4 Q. That was a BIH soldier?
5 A. HVO.
6 Q. HVO.
7 A. And also the girl that was raped and picked up by us on the search
8 and rescue mission which I interrogated, she recognised some of those
9 people from Kakanj. I then later on talked to the two soldiers that
10 were guarding the mines under the railway bridge who also admitted it
11 was HVO from Kakanj. That is the name of the unit, Kamar Kakanj.
12 Then had deployed during the war whatsoever to Kiseljak especially
13 for this action was brought
14 to the Vares area of Stupni Do.
15 Q. Now these soldiers who came originally then would not have
16 originally been part of the Bobovac Brigade, is that so?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So they were borrowed, so to speak?
19 A. They were brought in specially for one thing.
20 Q. To do what?
21 A. To wipe out Stupni Do.
22 Q. You at one point went to the Bobovac Brigade officer, did you not,
23 or headquarters and saw a number of soldiers there who were dressed
24 and ready for combat?
25 A. Yes, ma'am.
1 Q. Would you explain when that was approximately? What were they
2 dressed like and did you draw any conclusions about whether they were
3 combat ready or not based on their dress?
4 A. The normal uniform with HVO and Bosnian Army is they just put on
5 anything they can get hold of. Camouflage or black is number one
6 colours. When they get ready to do combats, they put on a small
7 ribbon on the shoulder. It could be white, purple, any colour
8 that just is the colour of the day for everybody.
9 Q. The colour of the day for everyone?
10 A. So they recognised each other because the two armies use the same
12 Q. So they know each other. That helps ----
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. --- does not it? OK.
15 A. I would say if they start arming up a little bit more heavy, they
16 got on this shoulder strap, they can see they are getting ready for
17 combat. Some of them use -- the proper colour among Croats
18 especially is the black uniform. I have seen it several places
19 before around in the Krajina, outside Krajina, in Croatia, in Bosnia
20 as well.
21 Q. Did you see this group of soldiers then at the Bobovac Brigade
23 A. Yes, ma'am.
24 Q. Would this have been before or after the attack on Stupni Do?
25 A. The attack was ongoing when we got involved in it. We saw them at
1 the first meeting up there in the Bobovac Brigade Headquarters. We
2 saw them every time we go up there. Then finally when they were done
3 on the third day we came up to look for Ivica Rajic. He was not
4 there. We saw about five buses, four to five buses, fully packed
5 with these soldiers getting ready to leave the area.
6 Q. When they left the area did you hear them say anything?
7 A. They were just shouting: "We are going to kill you. UNPROFOR sucks.
8 NORDBAT sucks", and and stuff like that.
9 Q. Did they say anything about UNPROFOR being too late?
10 A. Yes. One guy said: "UNPROFOR is late as always. We have finished
11 with our job, ha ha," and just started laughing.
12 Q. I am looking at your statement, Mr. Ekenheim. Do you recall saying
13 that Commander Rajic said that these were his troops in Stupni Do and
14 he was in charge and he can guarantee that they will do nothing to
15 harm the civilians?
16 A. Yes, ma'am. I guess that was in the second meeting with him when
17 they made that statement; second or third meeting, something like
18 that, the first night.
19 Q. Stupni Do from listening to the other testimony was in a valley I
20 gather, is that correct, like
21 a little bowl or not? You tell me?
22 A. Stupni Do in comparison to Vares was on high grounds. Then the
23 village was in a small valley that was, let us say, more level than
24 higher ground than the rest of, let us say, Vares. So you could say
25 it was in a valley, but it was higher ground than the surroundings.
1 Q. Was it on a main road?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Vares I gather was on a main road?
4 A. Yes, ma'am.
5 Q. Did you have to go through Vares to get to Tuzla?
6 A. Yes, ma'am.
7 Q. Was there any military significance to Stupni Do?
8 A. None whatsoever.
9 Q. Do you recall saying in your statement that Commander Rajic said
10 that he took Stupni Do because the Bosnian Army would launch an
11 attack against Vares through there, so it had to be neutralized?
12 A. Yes, ma'am.
13 Q. Did you say something about that earlier today? If so, I missed it.
14 A. Yes, ma'am. It was stated that the Bosnian Army was supposed to
15 launch a major attack over Stupni Do to get Vares.
16 Q. When was that, do you recall?
17 A. That was in the first meeting with him.
18 Q. The first meeting. OK.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have nothing further. Mr. Ostberg?
20 MR. OSTBERG: One last question struck me. Can the words "Stupni Do" be
21 translated into English? Does it mean something?
22 A. It is a local dialect. It has to do with a finger, the knuckle.
23 Q. Nothing to do with where it lies in the terrain or something like
25 A. Not as far as I know.
1 Q. No. OK. Thank you.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Sergeant Ekenheim. You are excused.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 (The witness withdrew).
5 MR. OSTBERG: May I raise an issue?
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
7 MR. OSTBERG: We have two more witnesses: one is the photographer and the
8 other is the Dutch Colonel Jan Koet who has been waiting to be
9 examined today. I take it that you are not going to listen to two
10 more witnesses today?
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Well, do you want to call Lieutenant Koet first?
12 MR. OSTBERG: No. Now we are planning to hear Pettersen, but if you are
13 not going to hear Colonel Koet today he could be excused.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How long do you think you will need for Petty
15 Officer Pettersen?
16 MR. CAYLEY: Madam President, I would estimate over half an hour.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then you can excuse Lieutenant Koet. We will just
18 hear from Petty Officer Pettersen, but Judge Sidhwa reminds me for
19 you to tell Lieutenant Colonel Koet to be available tomorrow at 2.30.
20 That is when we plan to resume.
21 MR. OSTBERG: Of course.
22 Petty Officer Pettersen, called.
23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole
24 truth and nothing but the truth.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.
1 MR. CAYLEY: Madam President, this witness will produce exhibits which are
2 photographs which in the main the subject matter is very disturbing.
3 I realise that there is a television output and there is a warning
4 out on the screen, but I just thought I should bring it to the
5 attention of the court.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What does the warning say? I do not know.
7 MR. CAYLEY: The warning says: "Some of the following images may be found
8 to be disturbing".
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may proceed. That is sufficient.
10 MR. CAYLEY: Indeed, it will be necessary for you to have your monitors
11 switched on because these photographs will come up on the monitor as
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have, thank you.
14 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY (To the witness): Mr. Pettersen, thank you for
15 coming to court today. You are Bernard John Pettersen; is that
17 A. That is correct, sir.
18 Q. I think you are a Petty Officer in the Royal Navy of the United
19 Kingdom is that correct?
20 A. That is correct, sir.
21 Q. I think you were interviewed by investigators from the Tribunal in
22 June 1995 for two days and in August 1995 for two days; is that
24 A. Yes, that is correct, sir.
25 Q. Just a little about your background. I think you joined the Royal
1 Navy in 1976; is that correct?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. I think in 1981 you attended the Joint Services Photographic Course;
4 is that correct?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. Which, in effect, trains you to be an officially trained military
8 A. That is right, sir, yes.
9 Q. I think in 1991 you attended the Advanced Photographic Course?
10 A. That is correct, sir, yes. I attended that course.
11 Q. I understand that within your training you have done some forensic
12 photography training, scenes of crime training and, indeed, in
13 practice, you have been required to be involved in
14 the photographic recording of Naval aviation crashes and scenes of
15 crime records; is that correct?
16 A. That is also correct, sir, yes.
17 Q. I think you have had operational experience with the Royal Navy in
18 the Falkland zone from October 1984 to February 1985; is that
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And I think in southwest Asia in December 1990?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Is it correct that in August 19923 you were on temporary assignment
24 to 845 Naval Air Squadron at Divelije Barracks in Split in the
25 Republic of Croatia?
1 A. Yes, that is correct, sir.
2 Q. I understand that this was part of the British contribution to the
3 UN Protection Forces in the former Yugoslavia; is that correct?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. I think shortly after you arrived you were attached to the 1st
6 Battalion, the Prince of Wales Own Royal Regiment of Yorkshire; is
7 that correct?
8 A. That is right.
9 Q. I think you were, in fact, sent to them, as it were, to record their
10 activities and their responsibilities in the former Yugoslavia; is
11 that correct?
12 A. That is correct, sir, yes.
13 Q. I think you were sent, were you not, to work for the Public
14 Information Office making this photographic record of the battalion's
16 A. That is right, sir, yes.
17 Q. I think this included visiting with members of the battalion, HVO
18 units, Bosnian government units and, indeed, Bosnian Serb
19 territories; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct, sir.
21 Q. I think during your time with the British battalion you frequently
22 found yourself in difficult situations and you were often under
23 direct fire; is that correct?
24 A. That is also correct.
25 Q. I think sometime in October 1993 you remember that you were required
1 to travel from Vitez to Stupni Do to photograph an alleged massacre;
2 is that correct?
3 A. That is correct, sir.
4 Q. I think you were accompanied by a rifle company from the British
5 battalion; is that correct?
6 A. That is also correct.
7 Q. I think it is correct to state that you took over 300 photographs
8 whilst you were in Stupni Do; is that right?
9 A. That is right, sir.
10 Q. Did you make a shot list of each of the negatives of the photographs
11 which you took identifying exactly what that was a photograph of and
12 where it was taken?
13 A. That is correct, sir. I actually logged each photograph and where
14 it was on the village.
15 Q. I understand that when the Tribunal investigator came to visit you,
16 you, in fact, made a more detailed shot list; is that right?
17 A. That is right, sir.
18 Q. I think you, in fact, allocated an alphabetical list to each of the
19 bodies that you photographed running from A to P; is that correct?
20 A. I think that is correct.
21 Q. I should perhaps say human remains rather than bodies because in
22 some cases, I think, they
23 were not really identifiable as human remains; is that correct?
24 A. The remains.
25 Q. I think also when the Tribunal investigator came to record your
1 statement you created a grid system which could be laid over a map or
2 a plan of the village of Stupni Do which indicates from, as it were,
3 the key on this grid system where each particular photograph was
4 taken; is that correct?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. Petty Officer Petterson, this is a very important part, you have not
7 altered the prints or the negatives in any way; what we are going to
8 see today is what you took at the time.
9 A. The images you will see today and subsequently all those photographs
10 are untouched or unaltered in any way, shape or form.
11 Q. Initially, is it correct in saying (and I emphasise initially) you
12 did not actually move any of these bodies which you took photographs
13 of in situ?
14 A. No, sir, initially they were taken in situ.
15 Q. I think there were some problems entering Stupni Do, were there not?
16 Could you explain to the court what happened as you got to I think
17 it was a tunnel under a railway, was it not, that was the entrance to
18 Stupni Do?
19 A. That is correct. Just prior to that, your Honours, we approached
20 Vares at night. We had been told that we might come under
21 opposition, so we set off in the early morning at 3 o'clock. On
22 approach to Vares we were actually stopped at a check point. There
23 was a chain across the road and there was a guard and some mines on
24 the road area.
25 I was in a Landrover which was not armoured. We stopped at the
1 checkpoint. We had armoured personnel carriers some 15 minutes behind us.
2 My Major, the Major I was working with, actually got out and tried to
3 talk to the soldiers to get our way through. A heated debate took place.
4 I was back from that point at the time and actually took some photographs
5 of the soldiers talking to the Major.
6 After a long conversation, a Scandinavian vehicle came up and
7 another argument took place with the Scandinavian officers and the
8 soldiers at the checkpoint. After a lot of shouting and arguments, the
9 chain was then removed, and I am not sure how the mines were removed, but
10 we were allowed to proceed towards the village of Stupni Do.
11 As we proceeded up the road, the entrance to Stupni Do was a
12 tunnel area underneath a train track. We approached that in our
13 Landrover, and the road was blocked by barbed wired and we were
14 informed that there were possibly mines there. There was a sentry on
15 top of the road block which it was clearly visible to see he had a
16 weapon, a rifle of some sort. It was decided by the Major, Major
17 Hunter, that it was too dangerous to actually proceed, and then the
18 APCs were called for. We got into the APCs, which are armoured
19 personal carriers, we got into them, and the Major decided it was
20 still too dangerous to actually try to go under the tunnel, and he
21 ordered the vehicles, the armoured personnel carriers, to go over the
22 train tracks, and that is how we proceeded into the village. So,
23 the armoured personnel carriers rode over the train tracks and
24 carried on the path the other side of the tunnel.
25 Q. I believed that you travelled into Stupni Do closed down. Can you
1 explain to the court what that means? It is a military term, I know.
2 A. As a naval person, this was a bit of novelty to myself. Obviously,
3 not having to work with armoured vehicles, I was fairly unfamiliar
4 with the idea of being enclosed in a vehicle, but
5 it was explained to me much earlier on before getting to Bosnia that
6 it may become apparent that when things get really tough that they
7 will close the vehicle down, all hatches and compartments would be
8 closed so that no explosions or ammunition rounds could actually come
9 in and injure the people inside the vehicle.
10 Q. I think you then, as it were, drove up this track in these tracked
11 armoured personnel carriers. You then entered into Stupni Do. In
12 fact, the hatches of the vehicle were then opened. Can you explain
13 to the court and recall what your first impressions were as you got
14 out of the vehicle?
15 A. As the vehicles approached Stupni Do, one of the soldiers opened the
16 back hatch area which was an outward opening doorway. The doorway
17 opened and my first vision was of
18 a dead cow on a pathway and the smell of burning, acrid burning smoke
19 was there. Shortly after that, I saw the first of the demolished
20 buildings. These buildings were left in
21 ruins. As the vehicle proceeded up the pathway, more visible
22 evidence of the ruins of the buildings were obvious and the smell
24 Q. I think, unsure of the stability of the area, you actually
25 immediately commenced taking photographs?
1 A. That is correct. We were concerned that we were not sure how long
2 we had to stay in the area and whether the area was secure, so my
3 first orders were to go round and record all the bodies as fast as I
4 could to ensure that I got the most records in the least time
6 Q. If I could show to the witness Prosecutor's Exhibit 4 so that he can
7 identify a photograph?
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
9 MR. CAYLEY: Do you recognise the image on that photograph?
10 A. I recognise this image and can confirm that it is actually a
11 photograph that I took.
12 Q. How do you know that you took that photograph?
13 A. I known my own work, and I recognise the work that I have done this
14 is one of the photographs I took.
15 Q. What can you tell the court about that photograph?
16 A. This is a house that we called the "partisan" house for obvious
17 reasons. You can see it on your screen now. There is a building to
18 the right of that. The area to the left is a garage with large words
19 "partisan" written on it. Having been to this building area, I also
20 went inside the white building.
21 Q. You said that you went into the white building, that is the building
22 with all the smoke marks on the windows and with no roof?
23 A. That is correct. That is the building to the right-hand side. As
24 you can see, the pointer on the screen pointing to it now.
25 Q. Which part of this building did you go into?
1 A. I actually first went into the cellar area, proceeded into the
2 cellar area.
3 Q. If the witness could now be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 5, indeed, if
4 we can tender Prosecutor's Exhibit 4 into evidence?
5 JUDGE VOHRAH: What date was this exactly?
6 MR. CAYLEY: The witness cannot exactly remember. I mean, I can ask the
7 witness. (To the witness): Do you remember exactly which date?
8 A. I cannot remember, but I understand it was approximately two days
9 after the incident occurred.
10 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.
11 MR. CAYLEY: If we could tender the Prosecutor's Exhibit 4 into evidence?
12 Indeed, if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 5.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be admitted. (Handed).
14 MR. CAYLEY: Do you recognise this photograph?
15 A. Again I recognise this photograph as one I took.
16 Q. How do you it is a photograph that you took?
17 A. Again I know my own work and I actually can guarantee I took this
19 Q. What can you tell the court about this photograph?
20 A. This is a photograph that I found three bodies in the cellar. If
21 you look in the area where the mouse is, the arrow is pointing now,
22 you will see three bodies huddled in a trap door area in the corner
23 of the cellar. What I also found in there was a number of cartridge
24 shells lying on the floor next to a red candle which you can just see
25 on the screen. You can see the cartridge shells lying adjacent to
1 the candle.
2 Q. Is there anything particularly unusual about this photograph which
3 you noticed at the time or certainly when you were taking it?
4 A. When I was taking the photograph it was very dark in that room,
5 extremely dark in that area, and difficult to see. As I walked
6 around the room, there was a white flower on the floor and there was
7 other cartridge cases, spent cartridges cases, throughout the area to
8 the door at the back of the cellar.
9 Q. Thank you. If that exhibit could be tendered into evidence, your
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I gather all of these photos that Petty Officer
12 Pettersen will testify about were taken on the same day?
13 MR. CAYLEY: No, they were taken over a two-day period.
14 THE WITNESS: Period of two days.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The first, Exhibit 4, at least, you believe in
16 response to Judge Vohrah's question that it was -----
17 A. That was taken on the first day.
18 Q. The first day which would have been about two days after the
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. So if the incident occurred on October 23rd, it would have been
22 October 25th that you took Exhibit 4?
23 A. That is two days, your Honour. I have not a diary saying that is
24 the date so I would accept that.
25 Q. Exhibit 5 would have been taken at the same time as Exhibit 4, the
1 same day?
2 A. That is correct, and subsequent within probably an hour of the whole
3 event taking place.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. As you go through the photos, just
5 indicate whether it is the first day or the second day that he went
7 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, I will your Honour. If that exhibit could be tendered
8 into evidence and if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, Exhibit 5 will be admitted. (Handed).
11 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY (To the witness): What can you tell the court
12 about -- is this a photograph that you have taken?
13 A. That is correct. I took this photograph and it was taken,
14 obviously, to show the amount of wounds and injuries that had been
15 sustained by these three people that were in the trap door area of
16 the cellar. As you can see, there is substantial damage to the
17 facial area and there was also a bullet wound, as you can see where
18 the arrow is indicating now, to the woman on the left's neck. There
19 is a large flow of blood. This was one of many bullet holes and
20 bullet wounds that were in the body of all three of them.
21 Q. If that could be admitted into evidence and the witness be shown
22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 7?
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 6 will be admitted, taken, I gather, at the
24 same time as Exhibit 5. (Handed).
25 MR. CAYLEY: Is this a photograph that you have taken, Petty Officer
2 A. This is another photograph I took.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Same day?
4 MR. CAYLEY: What day?
5 A. This was on the same day. This was on the first day of the visit,
6 the first day I was there. I
7 took this photograph to show the wounds area around the mouth, nose,
8 arms and, as you can see, to the left-hand side where the arrow is
9 pointing now, and also in the hopes that somebody may be able to
10 identify to identify the face of this person subsequently at a later
12 Q. Thank you. If that could be admitted into evidence and the witness
13 be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 8?
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 7 will be admitted. (Handed).
15 MR. CAYLEY: I believe is this a photograph that you have taken, Petty
16 Officer Pettersen?
17 A. That is a photograph that I took.
18 Q. I believe that this photograph was taken on the second day; is that
20 A. That is correct, it was on second day.
21 Q. I believe that this photograph was taken on the upstairs of the
22 house where the three women that we have just seen the images of were
24 A. That is correct. I was informed the following day, having spent the
25 night in the village, the following day, that there were further
1 bodies in the upstairs of the partisan house. I was escorted by the
2 doctor and he indicated these three charred remains which he
3 described as bodies to me.
4 Q. Did the doctor assign a sex or age to the remains, some ashen
5 remains, we see there?
6 A. That is correct. I took photographs of all three of the remains.
7 This is one of them, and the doctor said that this was the remains of
8 a child no greater than 18 months of age.
9 Q. If that exhibit, Exhibit 8, could be admitted into evidence and the
10 witness be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 9?
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 8 will be admitted. (Handed).
12 MR. CAYLEY: Can the witness be shown that photograph? Could I have that
13 photograph back, please, because the images on the computer scene, I
14 apologise, are out of sequence. Do you recognise that photograph?
15 A. I recognise this photograph.
16 Q. That is, indeed, a photograph, I think, that you have taken?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Could you tell the court something about it?
19 A. Yes, after leaving the partisan house we came across another body
20 which, obviously, we will talk about in a moment or two. Having been
21 to that body, then we proceeded to this body. It was first described
22 as a child or expected to be a child between the ages of 12 and
23 113. You cannot see on the photograph, but above the body on the
24 wall, the body is on sloping ground, and above the wall there are
25 various amounts of bullet holes in the wall area on and around where
1 the body is lying.
2 As you can see, there is a body. The head is where the arrow is
3 now and the body is lying face down along the floor area, as you can
4 see by the amount of rubble, it is a sloping ground that led to the
5 back of a house, and again above the wall area which is out of view
6 in the photograph is a number of bullet marks described as strike
7 marks, because they were not perfectly straight, along the wall.
8 They were in the same position directly above the body area.
9 Q. I believe you, in fact, returned to this body on the second day with
10 the doctor?
11 A. That is correct, we did.
12 Q. Did he identify the body?
13 A. Yes, the doctor further examined this body. He turned it over and
14 there were grey hairs on the chest, a male shirt which was buttoned
15 up on the male side and also a pocket watch. He described this as
16 being the remains of an elderly gentleman, suspected to be least in
18 50s by the state of his skin and chest area, and also there was a
19 pocket watch lying underneath the body.
20 Q. If that could be admitted, in fact, as Prosecutor's Exhibit 10?
21 Then the next exhibit will be Exhibit 9. I am sorry about that. The
22 sequence is out of order.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 10 will be admitted. (Handed).
24 MR. CAYLEY: Do you recognise this photograph, Petty Officer Pettersen?
25 A. Yes, I recognise this photograph as one I took.
1 Q. Can you tell the court something about the photograph?
2 A. Yes. Having left the partisan house, this was the body we next
3 proceeded to. After this body we then went to the exhibit you have
4 just seen. We walked down the path some three to four metres down
5 the partisan house, down the sloping ground. This was the next body
6 we took photographs of. It is a body of a male, you can see the leg
7 area which has got flesh shown, the genitalia near that area, and the
8 body was wearing the remains of buckled boots. There was a trace of
9 combat trouser material on the left leg, and also there was an amount
10 of round scattered next to the body.
11 Q. If that could be admitted as Prosecutor's Exhibit 9 and the witness
12 be shown the next photograph?
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I thought 9 was identified as a child between the
14 ages of 12 and 13 or shall we ----
15 A. No, it was subsequently identified by the doctor as an elderly
16 gentleman between 50 and 60
17 years of age.
18 MR. CAYLEY: Sorry, I think simply for clarity's sake, initially that body
19 was said to be that of
20 a 12 to 13 year old child by an Army medic, and then I think
21 subsequently a Swedish doctor who was at the scene, he actually
22 turned the body over and did a thorough examination and identified it
23 to be that of an elderly man.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is Exhibit 9?
25 MR. CAYLEY: No, Exhibit 10. I apologise for that. The images on the
1 screen were out of order. Therefore, you have seen the wrong image
2 relating to the photograph Mr. Pettersen is talking about.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The exhibit that Mr. Pettersen has now is exhibit --
4 is the male with the combat trousers.
5 MR. CAYLEY: That is Exhibit 9. I am sorry about that.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is OK. Exhibit 9 then will be admitted.
7 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY (To the witness): I think you then actually
8 proceeded to a higher area of the village which, in fact, the first
9 witness morning identified to you as an area, a hamlet of Stupni Do
10 called Pricado. I think when you got there and again this was
11 on the first day, was it not?
12 A. That is correct. I actually took this photograph on the second day
13 with the doctor's examination, but I did take earlier photographs of
14 the bodies in situ in this building.
15 Q. This was in Pricado?
16 A. That was in Pricado, that is correct. That is the upper hamlet
17 pathway from the bottom of the village.
18 Q. I see. Can you tell us the court something about this photograph?
19 A. This is a photograph of three bodies. I approached this building
20 and found four bodies in this building. This is a photograph of
21 three bodies. As you can see if you look in the area
22 to the middle area left, if you could just move the arrow to the
23 middle area left, keep going left, left -- stop there -- there was
24 one of the bodies or the remains of ashes of a body was there.
25 There was a subsequent two further bodies, if you just move the
1 arrow to the right-hand, the top body, that body was described by the
2 doctor as a female. If you would like to bring the arrow down to the
3 other body, to that area -- just go up a bit more -- he described that as
5 male -- if we could possibly go closer on that -- as you may be able to
6 see now on your screens, if you move up, there is a chin area where the
7 arrow is now, neckline, leading down to the left shoulder area and the
8 chest area is exposed. The doctor identified that as male by hairs on the
9 chest again.
10 These bodies were -- can you just open it again -- the two
11 bodies, the one you can see, the female and the male, were bonded
12 together initially when I took the photographs in situ, and I
13 assisted the doctor in peeling the bodies apart so that we could
14 actually identify
15 the body underneath the female.
16 Q. If that could be admitted, your Honour, as Prosecutor's Exhibit 11?
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 11 will be admitted.
18 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 12? Is
19 this a photograph that you have taken?
20 A. That is correct. This was taken on the first day of the female face
21 before the doctor and myself subsequently ----
22 Q. So of the image that the court has just seen of the three bodies,
23 this is the body that was identified as that of a female?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. This is a close up shot.
1 A. A close up shot of the face. You may be able to make out the eye
2 sockets, the nose
3 area, mouth and chin area leading down to the neck, and the remains
4 of shoulders and rib cage. This was a body of a female that was on
5 top of a male, so there was a male body underneath this body of the
6 female. That was described by the doctor.
7 Q. Thank you. If that could be admitted as Prosecutor's Exhibit 12?
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 12 will be admitted.
9 MR. CAYLEY: If Prosecutor's Exhibit 13 could be shown to the witness? Is
10 this a photograph that you have taken, Petty Officer Pettersen?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. I believe that this was taken on the first day?
13 A. That is right. Having left the house with the four bodies or the
14 four charred remains where
15 this location -----
16 Q. So you were still in the area of Pricado?
17 A. Very much so. We were literally, this next body was found less than
18 probably 50 to 75 yards away from the house with four bodies in.
19 This was almost opposite that house, a little bit up the path, but
20 only by 50 metres at the most.
21 Q. Did the doctor look at this body?
22 A. The doctor subsequently examined this body, and again took the top
23 clothes off the body and identified both entry and exit bullet wounds
24 and both front and back area.
25 Q. So, in fact, he confirmed that this individual had been killed by
1 being shot?
2 A. He identified the bullet holes and subsequent other marks to the
3 body were charred areas from the wood that had, apparently, or
4 appeared to have fallen on the body. There was no other indication
5 that anything else other than a bullet wound had actually caused this
6 man's death.
7 Q. Thank you very much. If that could be admitted as Prosecutor's
8 Exhibit 13?
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 13 will be admitted.
10 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 14? I
11 think again this photograph was taken on the second day; is that
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. I think that this was taken above Pricado in the tree line where the
15 woods, in fact, come down to the edge of the hamlet of Pricado; is
16 that correct?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. What can you tell the court about this photograph?
19 A. As you left that gentleman, the previous image we have just seen, we
20 continued up the path of -- the path of the hamlet continued to rise.
21 It went to a bend area where the buildings finished and there was a
22 large tree line that ran up to the hills. In this tree line, at the
23 bottom of the tree line, there was a dead brown cow which had been
24 shot. Some 50 metres, 75 metres away from the cow was this
25 gentleman's body up the hill line.
1 He was lying face down when I photographed him initially and
2 subsequently the doctor turned his body over. As you can see on your
3 monitors, the doctor examined the body and on the back of the body it
4 was visible to see an exit wound from a bullet and the doctor
5 inserted a twig into the front of the body, as you can see from the
6 arrow, to show what he said was the entry wound of the bullet.
7 Q. Thank you. If that could be admitted as Prosecutor's Exhibit 14?
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 14 will be admitted.
9 MR. CAYLEY: I will show the witness Exhibit 15. I know that these next
10 photographs are not photographs that, in fact, you referred to in
11 your statement but, indeed, I believe they are photographs that you
12 took at the time?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you take this photograph?
15 A. That is correct, I took this photograph.
16 Q. Can you tell the court something about this photograph?
17 A. Throughout the two days that I was in attendance at Stupni Do, the
18 troops went through on routine searches to try see if there were any
19 survivors that may have been hiding away and afraid to come out. But
20 they were also looking for further bodies. During my time there,
21 having identified and photographed the bodies that I had done, we
22 found no further bodies or identified any further survivors.
23 Q. Thank you. If that could be admitted as Prosecutor's Exhibit 15 and
24 the witness be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 16?
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 15 will be admitted. (Handed).
1 MR. CAYLEY: Is this a photograph that you have taken?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. What day did you take this photograph?
4 A. This was taken, I believe, on day two. It was day two when the
5 search parties went around again. It was the same photograph, the
6 same team people that were in that area in the photograph and that
7 was taken on day two.
8 Q. Can you tell the court a little bit about this photograph?
9 A. This is a photograph that I took to show the search parties going
10 through the remains of the village, showing them searching for
11 further evidence and the bodies. Also, I took it because it
12 impressed on me the amount of damage that had actually happened to
13 that village. The chimney area, you can see the centre top of the
14 photograph, just centre top. To the right of that is the Valley of
15 Vares that stoops away into the background. The hamlet area where I
16 found some of the bodies is on to the left, top left area, and the
17 pathway was around that area where the hamlets were, further up on to
18 the tree line.
19 Q. That is, indeed, the tree line up there where you found the dead
20 body of the elderly gentleman?
21 A. That is correct, and the four charred remains in the one building
22 and the gentleman with the cow.
23 Q. Thank you. If that could be admitted, your Honour, as Prosecutor's
24 Exhibit 16?
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 16 will be admitted.
1 MR. CAYLEY: Can the witness be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 17? Is this a
2 photograph that you have taken, Petty Officer Pettersen?
3 A. I took this photograph.
4 Q. Can you remember which day you took this photograph?
5 A. This was taken on day one.
6 Q. What is this an image of? What can you tell the court about this
8 A. This is a photograph taken of the path area in the upper hamlet, the
9 upper hamlet path.
10 Q. Pricado?
11 A. Pricado, that is correct. The start of the buildings showing the
12 amount of devastation and ruin of the buildings up on that area. It
13 shows the pathway where the gentlemen are walking down the hill, and
14 the building above the gentleman in the red top, if you move that --
15 that is it, that is the one there; no, keep going right, that is it
16 -- that building area was the area where the gentleman in the blue
17 jacket was found lying face up.
18 Q. Lying on his back?
19 A. Lying on his back.
20 Q. Can we see the house here where the three charred remains were
22 A. It is a bit clear on my photograph. That is behind the large white
23 building and I -- the path way, you go right, keep going right --
24 that building, the houses behind that building and the pathway ran
25 down to the left of that building.
1 Q. Right, thank you. If that could be admitted as Prosecutor's Exhibit
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 17 will be admitted.
4 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 18?
5 (Handed) Is this a photograph that you have taken, Petty Officer
7 A. That is correct. I took this photograph.
8 Q. On what day of your time in Stupni Do did you take this photograph?
9 A. This was taken on day two.
10 Q. I think the photograph speaks for itself. It is a panoramic view of
11 a major portion of the village to show, indeed, the damage that was
12 caused by the attack; is that correct?
13 A. That is correct. I took this photograph to show the overall damage
14 of the area and in the hopes also that we would be able to use it to
15 identify where the bodies were found at a later date. If you look at
16 the bottom middle corner you can see the "Partisan" house, the house
17 and the garage area with the word "Partisan" written on it.
18 Q. So the white house to the right is, indeed, where you found the
19 bodies of the three women?
20 A. That is correct. If you move the mouse to left-hand corner, red
21 roof -- keep going up -- the body of the male lying on his back was
22 found in that region area there.
23 Q. That was the elderly gentleman?
24 A. No, the young gentleman with the boots on and the flesh wounds to
25 his leg.
1 Q. Right. If that could be admitted into evidence, your Honour, as
2 Prosecutor's Exhibit 18?
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that the entire village, Mr. Pettersen?
4 A. It was undulating ground and behind the middle area the ground
5 slipped away so there were further houses -- can you just move by
6 that van, see the coloured van; just go up -- at that point the
7 ground slipped away and there were further buildings that sloped down
8 and slightly left. There was also, as you can see, the landscape
9 rolls away, and there were
10 a few houses over the next valley and also there were some out of
11 shot to the far right and up. Can you just bring the mouse in a bit?
12 It is off screen. Keep going up. On that hillside there were
13 further houses some probably up to half a mile away. If you were
14 standing facing the main village you could actually see that there
15 was the main houses and
16 then the valley went upwards, and there were further buildings dotted
17 on the sky line as the valley went upwards. So there were subsequent
18 houses outside of the main village area as well as some down in a
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The evidence seems to indicate that there were
21 approximately 250 persons, is it, living in the village.
22 MR. CAYLEY: That is correct, your Honour.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What proportion of the village would this depict,
24 this 18?
25 A. This photograph I see here, I would say that the photographs of the
1 hamlet, and I would estimate that there may probably be 10, 10 houses
2 maybe in the village, not counting the hamlet area where I was
3 standing because I am on the platform, probably may be 10 houses
5 Q. 10 houses?
6 A. Or 10 buildings. Obviously, the buildings were in such a state. I
7 understand that one of the buildings was a school, or a school area,
8 and it could be in no way recognised as such in that way, although
9 the troops called it a school area. But the buildings were
10 unrecognisable, some as houses, some as garages; some had been
11 flattened near enough to the ground. It was very difficult to
12 identify exactly what was in there.
13 Q. But you would estimate approximately there are 10 buildings that are
14 not depicted?
15 A. I would say a minimum of 10 buildings that you cannot see because of
16 the falling ground, and also that some of the houses were not in the
17 main village. I would say there was easily 10 more houses.
18 Q. Other than those 10 buildings, this reflects the entire hamlet?
19 A. This was a true reflection, as were the other photographs, of the
20 amount of damage that had happened throughout the village.
21 Q. You said "hamlet"?
22 A. "Hamlet" is an English term for small village, sorry.
23 Q. So it was a village but a small village?
24 A. Small villages in England are called hamlets.
25 Q. Is this a small village?
1 A. In an English standard, yes, it would be a small village.
2 JUDGE VOHRAH: It is Stupni Do?
3 A. That is the whole Stupni Do, that is correct.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. 18 will be admitted.
5 MR. CAYLEY: I think, simply put, at the end of your two days in Stupni Do
6 you returned to Vitez with units of the British battalion; is that
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. Then subsequently after your posting had finished in the former
10 Yugoslavia you returned to the United Kingdom; is that correct?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Thank you very much indeed.
13 A. Can I just put in, as soon as I returned the photographs were
14 developed straightaway so that the evidence could be preserved.
15 Immediately I returned from Stupni Do, the negatives were then
16 developed back at Vitez straightaway.
17 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. Your Honours, if you have any questions of the
19 JUDGE SIDHWA: When you returned to England had you left the negatives
20 with the Army authorities or -----
21 A. Some days after processing the negatives, I then personally
22 delivered the negatives to the RMP, the Military Police, the Canadian
23 Police, in Kiseljak with the list of where the photographs were. I
24 also spoke to them on the phone prior to doing the list to confirm
25 that it would be OK for me to actually identify the body as A through
1 the alphabet.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You indicated in your statement, I think: "I do not
3 remember seeing window glass on some of the windows in the damaged
4 buildings. I saw black molten glass around the edges and corner
5 frames of the windows"?
6 A. That is something that became apparent as night fell because we had
7 to stay in the village overnight, and we slept on the ground, on the
8 floors around the armoured vehicles. Obviously, looking for sort of
9 comfort, one of the things that did come to my mind was there was no
10 glass that we could lie on. I did notice in a few of the buildings
11 that the walls were, the paintwork was still intact, everything in
12 the buildings was intact, and the window areas that remained, there
13 was just black areas of rolled, well, it looked like molten lather,
14 or appeared to be glass, that were at the very bottom of the window.
15 It looked like it had been heated very fast. At school, we blew
16 glass and the bits that were left went brown and black and stuck
17 together very hard like a thick glue, blackened, and this is what I
18 saw in the corners of the windows, but there did not appear to be
19 chards of glass to lie on or anything. It was one of the few things
20 that, sort of, stuck in my mind very strangely.
21 Q. Why do you think that is strange?
22 A. Well, it was just that because, obviously, as the night goes on, we
23 were sleeping amongst rubble and stones, and as we were brushing the
24 stones away it was something that first came to mind and I did not
25 find any glass. That was it really.
1 Q. It has no relevance to the type of equipment that was used.
2 A. Not that I -- it was just a pointer thing that normally, seeing the
3 amount of devastation, I expected to see lots of glass and things
4 like that.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Anything else?
6 MR. CAYLEY: No, your Honour.
7 JUDGE SIDHWA: Did it appear to you that the devastation was basically due
8 to the houses being torched and that due to fire all this has taken place
9 or is it -----
10 A. I have seen fires that have been created by accident, but I do not
11 think I have got sufficient knowledge to actually say whether the
12 buildings were torched or whether that was due to ammunition. Being a
13 Navy person, although I had former experience and formal training in
14 slight military things, I had not actually experienced the buildings that,
15 you know, to see what was an artillery round and which was fire. So I do
16 not think that I really could say which way that happened.
17 I did notice a lot of smoke around the window areas as well on a
18 lot of
19 the buildings, which would indicate at some point the buildings had
20 been or had caught fire. I did see other buildings around Bosnia in
21 my time there that indicated that there had
22 been fire and flames there as well, and a lot of these established
23 and resembled that. But I have never seen any buildings that were
24 near enough raised to the ground through fire.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Petty Officer Pettersen, you are excused. Thank you.
1 We will adjourn until tomorrow at 2.30 p.m.
2 (The hearing was adjourned until the following day)