Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2749

 1                          Thursday, 24 January 2008

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The witness entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 5                          [The accused entered court].

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  Mr. Registrar,

 7    could you please call the case.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours.  This

 9    is case number IT-03-67-T, The Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  This is Thursday,

11    January, 24th, 2008.  I welcome Ms. Dahl, Mr. Seselj, and our witness.

12            Just a comment on the way our hearing is going to occur.  We'll

13    have a break at 1.45 and will resume at 5:00 -- and until 7.00.

14    Exceptionally we will sit until 7.00 because normally on Thursday

15    afternoons we will sit until 6.30.  But since we have a longer break, we

16    will sit until 7.00.

17            Theoretically we should be able to finish this witness today.

18            Mr. Seselj, I don't really remember how many time you have left,

19    but I'm sure the legal officer will tell us exactly where -- where you

20    stand, but you can start and I will tell you in due time how much time

21    you've got left.

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think, Mr. President, that I have

23    more than an hour and a half left.  I don't know exactly how many minutes,

24    but my people are checking that.  They are counting the time.  At any

25    rate, it is more than an hour and a half.

Page 2750

 1                          WITNESS: GORAN STOPARIC [Resumed]

 2                          Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj: [Continued]

 3       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Stoparic, the last thing that we discussed

 4    yesterday was the question of that assertion that you had made that the

 5    members of the Serb Radical Party took part in the persecution of Ivica

 6    Kopic from Gibarac in the municipality of Sid and that under duress he had

 7    to change and to -- he to move and to exchange his property.

 8            Later on you made this a bit more relative.  You said that you

 9    heard about this, that you heard from someone that it had happened.

10    However, in the statement that you gave to the OTP and that was submitted

11    to me - and I think that you repeated that during the

12    examination-in-chief - you said that this happened in 1992.  Isn't that

13    right?

14            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, if I may present the witness with his

15    original signed statement.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may have said that in 1992.

17            MR. SESELJ:  [Interpretation]

18       Q.   In 1992, yes.  That's why I want you to confirm that now, that you

19    had said that.  15 minutes ago, I got a fax from Belgrade consisting of

20    two documents.  I'd like to show these two documents to you now and then

21    you could hand them over to the Trial Chamber.

22            One document is --

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Just a minute.  Mr. Seselj, we

24    don't have a translation for these documents.

25            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, I think there's no need to

Page 2751

 1    have them translated in their entirety.  When you have a look at them you

 2    understand straight away what it is all about.  The most important thing

 3    is that the year of the property exchange is clear.  Ivica Kopic, or

 4    rather, his mother Anica was the owner of the house involved, signed a

 5    contract --

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  We saw.

 7            Ms. Dahl.

 8            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I want to reiterate the objection I made

 9    to an improper use of documents in cross-examining a witness.  It is

10    unfair to the Prosecution and the Chamber to present documents that have

11    not been translated and I cannot react appropriately in anticipation of

12    the questions to be put to the witness on a document.  Your guide-lines

13    are quite clear.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes.  Just a reminder, in terms

15    of procedure, Mr. Seselj.

16            The precedence of this Tribunal and the practice of all Trial

17    Chambers are as follows.  During cross-examination, the Defence must

18    disclose to the Bench and to the Prosecution before the cross-examination

19    starts all exhibits that are to be used.  To make sure that these exhibits

20    are in one of the two working languages of the Tribunal.  There could be

21    exceptional circumstances like today, where the accused suddenly receives

22    on the fly, if I could say so, one last document.  But this is really an

23    exceptional circumstance and nothing more, and there's a reason behind

24    this.  Prosecution must have enough time to check the document, make sure

25    it is authentic, reliable in order not to be caught by surprise.   It

Page 2752

 1    goes -- it's exactly the same thing as when Prosecution is doing its

 2    examination-in-chief.  It must disclose to Defence the list of all

 3    documents that it will use.  We're supposed to have equality of arms and

 4    this is why this procedure applies and I wanted Mr. Seselj to be reminded

 5    of this.  But he just told us that he got this document at the very last

 6    minute.  Well, we will get it and put it on the ELMO just to see the

 7    date.  Because obviously there is a problem with the date and just the

 8    date and you don't need to translate the date.

 9            Ms. Dahl.

10            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, let me suggest that prejudice can be

11    avoided by giving me a ten-minute recess so that I can have the

12    opportunity to have a language assistant review the document with me.

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, you only have one

14    copy of this document?  Your linguistic assistant is next to you, right,

15    this legal assistant, is she next to you?

16            MS. DAHL:  Ms. Bosnjakovic serves as my case manager.  She is also

17    language qualified and I would be willing to ask her to assist in this

18    regard.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  She could just glance at the

20    document right now.  Let's take that document and hand it over to Ms. Dahl

21    so she can look at it and the -- her case manager will glance through it

22    and confirm.

23            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a contract.  It is a very

24    poor copy but you can see the year when it was signed and you can see who

25    the signatory is.  It has to do with an exchange of property, immovable

Page 2753

 1    property.  This is a much better copy.  This is a decision of the

 2    municipal court in Sid.  It is from the land registry office accepting the

 3    change of owner on the basis of this contract.

 4            Now why is this document important for me.  It is dated from 1995,

 5    not 1992.

 6            Judge, I have two more problems, do not interrupt me now.

 7            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour.

 8            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You cannot interrupt me now.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Ms. Dahl.

10            MS. DAHL:  This should take place outside the presence of the

11    witness.  If Mr. Seselj wants to defend the -- he should not be publishing

12    the document to the witness before anybody has had a chance.  This is

13    completely irregular.  I'm sorry.  It is not proper.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  I don't agree with you.  Show

15    this document to Ms. Dahl, please.

16            It's just to check the date and the title of the document.

17            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to continue examining this

18    witness so we don't waste any more time, Judge.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  You're asking

20    questions.  But first we're not deducting this from your time, so let

21    Ms. Dahl read the document first.

22            Furthermore, we could have simultaneous translation if the

23    document is on the ELMO.  So let's put the first document on the ELMO,

24    please.  That way everybody will see the document.

25            MS. DAHL:  I'm sorry, the document is completely illegible and it

Page 2754

 1    does not indicate whether it is a complete document.  There are

 2    handwritten figures on the bottom that indicate that there are pages

 3    missing.  I don't know what this means, but I'll let the Chamber look at

 4    it.  But I'm unable to read it with a qualified assistant.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, we will look at it.  It's

 6    the first document with a stamp, a signature.  This seems to be an

 7    official document.   It looks like an official document.  We'll put this

 8    first document on the ELMO, please.  It appears to be an authentic

 9    document.

10            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, on the second document, you

11    can only see the names of the signatories and the year, because it is an

12    illegible copy.  It was sent by fax but it is on the basis of this

13    document that the state authority issued the following document, so the

14    other document is more important, because that is fully legible.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The first document is legible.

16    The second document is less legible.  It appears to contain a number of

17    paragraphs and there's also a stamp.

18            Let's put it on the ELMO to see it.  The accused can see it.

19            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour --

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, according to the

21    accused, it should be read first.

22            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, if you could put an interrogatory to the

23    accused about the source of this document and whether it was recorded in

24    the public records and where he got it so we may know what it purports to

25    be, because it certainly isn't an original.

Page 2755

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj, please, where

 2    do these two documents come from, please?

 3            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This document that you have just

 4    placed on the ELMO is the document of the municipal court in Sid.  It is

 5    from its land registry department.  This municipal court also has a copy

 6    of the contract that I have submitted as well.  That is not particularly

 7    legible because, on the basis of that contract they issued this decision

 8    on the new register of this property.  So all this can be obtained at the

 9    municipal court in Sid.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  We'll have the

11    contract on the ELMO.   It comes from the land registrar in Sid, or the

12    surveyor's office.

13            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, let's make a proper record and have some

14    identification records added to these documents so that we don't lose

15    track in the transcript of what Mr. Seselj is referring to.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.

17            Mr. Registrar, could you please give a number for the two-page

18    document, and a second MFI document -- number, excuse me, for the document

19    that's just one page down and that's legible.

20            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The two-page document that is

21    purporting to be the land registry will be MFI D3 and the single-page

22    document will be marked for identification as D4.

23            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The other way around.  One page is

24    from the land registry.  It's just the other way around.  The one page is

25    an excerpt from the land registry, or, rather the decision of the relevant

Page 2756

 1    service for land registry, and the other one is the court document.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  The contract is two

 3    pages long and the land registry is one page long.  The document from the

 4    land registry is one page long; that is for the transcript.

 5            Mr. Registrar, so could you please give us numbers because they

 6    were not noted on the transcript.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.   The one-page document will be

 8    marked for identification as D3 and the two-page decision will be marked

 9    for identification as Exhibit D4.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  There's no MFI in the

11    transcript.

12            Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.  It's a contract between two

13    people and there is -- this is recorded in the land registry record.

14            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, did you know Ivica Kopic from Gibarci personally?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Did you know where his house was?

18       A.   I don't remember now but I used to know.

19       Q.   Do you know that he lived in Gibarci in the street of Marsala Tita

20    number 10 with his wife and one child.   Is that right, is that correct?

21       A.   I was in touch with Ivica Kopic in high school and I played soccer

22    football for a while with him but later on we hardly saw each other.

23       Q.   The house that he lived in was owned by his mother, and now I

24    would like you to either confirm this or deny this.  To the best of my

25    knowledge the house was being in the process of construction.  There was

Page 2757

 1    electricity there but there was no water there and there weren't any

 2    bathrooms.  One room had not even had plaster on the walls.  Do you know

 3    about that?

 4       A.   I don't know.  Possibly he was building something.

 5       Q.   To the best of my knowledge, and now I'm asking you whether you

 6    know about this, he exchanged this house with Petar Vujaklija from Sotin,

 7    Sotin is a suburb of Osijek.  Do you know that?

 8       A.   I think that Sotin is a village near Vukovar.

 9       Q.   As far as I know Osijek but perhaps you're right.  It's a suburb

10    of Osijek.  It is to the north of Vukovar.

11       A.   You may recall that you can reach Vukovar from the direction of

12    Negoslavci and from Sotin.

13       Q.   To the north of Vukovar so it's near Osijek, it's not too far away

14    Osijek from Vukovar.

15            Previously, Vujaklija Uras moved to Kukujevci.  Did you know Uras

16    Vujaklija?

17       A.   No.

18            MS. DAHL:  This is going too fast and I'm not getting accurate

19    translation, I'm sorry.  They're overlapping again.

20            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   To the best of my knowledge, Ivica Kopic looked up Petar Vujaklija

22    himself, because he knew his brother Uras.  Petar Vujaklija had been

23    expelled from Osijek and he lived in Backa Palanka and he offered an

24    exchange of houses.   From the documents we can see that the exchange was

25    carried out in 1995.  Today, Ivica Kopic and Petar Vujaklija are still

Page 2758

 1    friends.  Do you doubt that?  A Croat and a Serb who exchanged property

 2    are friends to this day?

 3       A.   I know that many Croats who left the municipality of Sid come to

 4    this day, especially for the fair.  You know that in Sid there is a

 5    well-known fair on the 15th day of every month and they come, so why would

 6    they not have a relationship if they had a proper exchange of houses?

 7       Q.   In this exchange Ivica Kopic fared much better to the best of my

 8    knowledge, because the house that he got in Cepin had be completed.

 9            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour.

10            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   People lived there and it was fully equipped.  Is that possible?

12            MS. DAHL:  Is Mr. Seselj testifying or is he asking questions?

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, ask questions.

14    You're testifying right now.  Ask questions, ask questions.  You're

15    testifying right now.  Ask questions, ask a question, ask a question to

16    get the answer you want and put your point across to the Judge, but ask a

17    question.

18            Say, If I tell you that there was an exchange, that this exchange

19    occurred in 1995, and that both partners were friends, there is a Serb on

20    the one hand and a Croat with the other one, do you agree with me, and

21    then he will answer, Yes I agree or, No, I don't.

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I did put this question to

23    him, Mr. President.  Does he doubt this information.

24            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, regarding this

25    specific question, yes, but the next question was not a question.  It was

Page 2759

 1    testifying.

 2            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   We are going to finish dealing with Ivica Kopic.  You tired me a

 4    bit with this question.

 5            When did you met Ms. Natasa Kandic, Mr. Stoparic?

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Hold on, Mr. Seselj.  You

 7    should not be wasting your time.  If I understood you right through these

 8    documents you were saying that contrary to what we have in the written

 9    statement and what the witness said there, Kopic was not expelled but

10    there was an exchange between two consenting parties who signed an

11    agreement that was correctly recorded.  Is that your point?

12            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  But the most important thing

13    is that the exchange did not even take place in 1992 but in 1995, three

14    days later in relation to what Stoparic's statement says -- or, rather, I

15    misspoke, three years later.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I say something in this regard,

17    Your Honours, because this question is being put to me and I'm being shown

18    this document but I haven't said a word about this.

19            Your Honours, this document is truthful, authentic, there is no

20    need to doubt it, but it proves when the owner of the house exchanged his

21    house with somebody else legally, but it doesn't prove when the Kopic

22    family left Serbia and whether they were refugees in Croatia and then

23    after a while legally they exchanged their immovable property.  I did not

24    say that he left in 1992.  He could have left in 1993 or at the end of

25    1992 but there was pressure against such people.  In my opinion this

Page 2760

 1    document shows when there was a legal exchange of houses but it doesn't

 2    show at all when he actually left Serbia.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.

 4            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   Ivica Kopic left Serbia in 1995.  Are you challenging that?

 6       A.   I don't know.  I think he left earlier.

 7       Q.   Oh, you don't know?

 8       A.   Well, sir, I did not see him off at the railway station.  I don't

 9    know.

10       Q.   But you did know what to say to the investigators, that it

11    happened in 1992?

12       A.   I said that he had some problems.

13       Q.   No.  You said that he left in 1992.

14       A.   Well, he could have left then.

15            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, it would appear that the tone of

16    Mr. Seselj's questions is acrimonious and he is making remarks to indicate

17    his displeasure with the witness's answer, and I believe that is not a

18    proper use of his right of cross-examination and I would ask for an

19    instruction that he would refrain from mocking and expressing irritation

20    at the witness.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  Mr. Seselj, it

22    seems that your demonstration you were about to carry out is failing and

23    has a flaw, because the witness says that he didn't leave in 1995.  The

24    witness doesn't exclude the fact that maybe the departure was earlier.

25            This is where we stand.  Please continue.  It won't be a problem

Page 2761

 1    for you anyway.  I'm sure you will find a witness to come to confirm your

 2    case.

 3            Move on to something else.

 4            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   My question was, when did you met Natasa Kandic, Mr. Stoparic?

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the answer.

 7            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, try to remember, what year was this?  I am giving

 9    you the chance to correct yourself.

10       A.   If you know this better than I do, please remind me.  I can't

11    remember.  Perhaps it was a bit earlier.

12       Q.   How much earlier?  You said 2004 and then I expressed my doubt and

13    then you say maybe it was earlier.  When could that earlier have been?

14       A.   Well, when I say 2004 I mean the second half of 2004.

15       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, this Prosecution provided me with a document from

16    which one can see that you made contact with Natasa Kandic in 1999 and

17    gave the first statement to her.  The Prosecution provided me with that

18    document.  I'm looking for it now.

19            The year was 1999.  You made a statement about certain

20    circumstances which are not essential for me here at the moment but you

21    know what's it about?

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, Ms. Dahl.

23            I must say that I don't really like objections.  I'm trying to

24    find the truth and the substance of this case.  I don't know why you raise

25    to your feet, but this is at least the fifth time you raise to your feet

Page 2762

 1    since we started.

 2            What did you want to say this time?

 3            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I would like the witness to be given the

 4    document that he is being examined on if the accused is asserting that he

 5    gave a statement, and we've disclosed it to the accused, I think protocol

 6    requires that the witness be treated fairly.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Well, just wait, maybe he will

 8    give the document.

 9            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have found a document dating back

10    to 2003.  That's one year before.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you frighten me.  You said I

12    said 1999 and I am sure that I didn't know her in 1999.

13            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   You said 2004.  It says 2003 here, 28th of March, 1999 so perhaps

15    that's the mistake.  Anyway, you gave the statement to her on the 31st of

16    August, 2003.  Is that right?

17       A.   Well, I don't remember exactly.

18       Q.   Where did you meet her for the first time?

19       A.   In Belgrade.

20       Q.   Where?

21       A.   In a restaurant.

22       Q.   What was the name of the restaurant?

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Hold on.  Mr. Seselj, I'm

24    stopping you here.

25            You have a document.  It may be important.  I don't know what is

Page 2763

 1    in this document.  But if this document is here to support your case, I

 2    told you already and I'll tell you again.  Before cross-examination,

 3    prepare in a file for the Bench with all these documents.  Hand them over,

 4    ask for a translation, if the translation hasn't been done, but obviously

 5    it looks like you already have a translation in English.  And therefore,

 6    as a professional Judge, I can read the document, I can see where you're

 7    going, I can ask my own questions and it's a better use of everybody's

 8    time.

 9            Right now we're totally blind.  You have a document in hand.  We

10    have no idea what this document is and you're asking questions about it.

11    I have been here for five years and during cross-examination I was always

12    given the documents before the cross-examination started.  You're doing

13    yourself a disservice working this way, because what you are saying will

14    not be taken into account by the Judges when they deliberate and rule and

15    think about the case.  You have to give us the document.  If you don't

16    give us the document, you have a big problem.  You're really going against

17    your own interest.

18            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this -- the document

19    number is 04246788.  I have absolutely no possibility of providing you

20    with these documents in advance.  Today, I wanted to photocopy a document,

21    a one-page document, in the detention centre today and the guard told me

22    that I had to send in a particular request to have that one page copied.

23    Then I brought the paper here to Court and asked Mr. Doraiswamy to copy it

24    for me and to hand it to the registry.

25            Now, if you're asking me to see to technical matters of that

Page 2764

 1    nature, then it would be better to have this trial finish straight away

 2    with a judgment.  I was searched twice, for example, coming from the

 3    detention centre to here and they mixed up my documents and I haven't had

 4    time to put them back in order yet.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  I'm listening to what you're

 6    saying.  If the Trial Chamber issued a ruling allowing you to have

 7    associates and a case manager, that was precisely for this reason, and

 8    this view for reasons I'm not going to address here, it wasn't possible to

 9    do it.   We should have from the registry somebody who is made available

10    to you who would do the photocopying at your request.  That person could

11    put together the documents into files.  I believe that the registrar is

12    very favourable to this idea.  It is in everybody's interest.  Otherwise,

13    we are going to get the impression that you're like a fish in a bowl and

14    that you are asking questions totally isolated without the Judges having

15    the documents.  You know as well as I do how powerful a document can be,

16    what its scope can be.  So it's in your interest.  Have a good thought

17    about it.  Imagine that you could have somebody appointed by the registry

18    who could, upon your instructions, do the photocopying and put together

19    the files for cross-examination purposes.  Based on that, you would come

20    to the hearing equipped with binders that would be given to the OTP and to

21    the Bench.

22            In this way, you could better use the scope of your questions,

23    make it possible for the trial Judges to understand what your aim is.

24    Failing that, we shall continue in the same way, it's going to be a waste

25    of time.  You're going to also waste your energy, lose it.  Each time

Page 2765

 1    Ms. Dahl will be on her feet to say that is a problem.  I can't force you

 2    to anything, but think about it.  Think about my proposal.

 3            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do you wish me to continue,

 4    Mr. President, with the cross-examination.

 5            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you have had time to think and remember what the

 7    cafe's name was.

 8       A.   I think it was called Lipo Vlad.

 9       Q.   Yes, that is what my information tells me too.  Now, how long

10    after that first meeting did you meet Natasa Kandic?

11       A.   Many times.

12       Q.   So you can't even count the number of times?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Did you get to know Sonja Biserko?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   After setting up closer cooperation and this friendship with

17    Natasa Kandic, did you bring any other people in to get to know her?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Some people who were witnesses in some trials and then that they

20    should change their testimony in cohorts with her, with agreement from

21    her?

22       A.   I don't know.

23            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I think that like you, you

24    received a report from a western police force.  I'm not going to mention

25    it if you don't tell me to do so, but the public knows about this because

Page 2766

 1    it was on the Internet.  It was the police of a western country which is

 2    not where Mr. Stoparic has been given refuge.

 3            Would you like me to give you the name?

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  You're now saying that I must

 5    have a received a report.  Not at all.  The only things the Judges receive

 6    are the documents from Ms. Dahl's binder for the examination-in-chief and

 7    the documents that you give us, if any, because for the time being you

 8    have not given any documents, so I'm not aware of this report.

 9            So this is a surprise.  Please proceed.

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Okay.  We're going to redact.

23    Did Mr. Seselj say that there was a police report without saying where it

24    comes from and that there are certain facts in this report, because, you

25    know, a police report, I mean there are 192 countries in the United

Page 2767

 1    Nations; it could be one of them.

 2            Please do not identify with any accuracy what this report is.

 3    What is of interest to you is the fact that, allegedly, Ms. Kandic would

 4    have gathered several witnesses.

 5            Is that the question?

 6            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not Ms. Kandic but that Mr. Stoparic

 7    brought in people to Ms. Kandic who, after talking to her, agreed to

 8    change their testimony in a specific Court.

 9            Now I'd like to draw your attention to ERN number 06247275 is the

10    number.  I hope that it can come up on e-court, that your services can put

11    it up on e-court.  That is the only way in which I can disclose the

12    documents that I received from Madame Dahl.

13            MS. DAHL:  I apologise, Your Honour, but the insinuations by the

14    accused are extremely serious and I object to his providing those

15    statements without evidentiary support or intent to cross-examine the

16    witness.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl, it appears that the

18    accused has a document which, allegedly, contains a statement by the

19    witness saying that this witness would have brought witnesses to

20    Ms. Kandic, and this is purported to be in the document we have just

21    received the number of.

22            You had asked for a private session.  Maybe we can move to private

23    session just to see this document.

24            Mr. Registrar, can you show us this document?  We could move to

25    private session just for the time of this document.

Page 2768

 1            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, I am absolutely opposed to a

 2    private session.  You can see the document.  I'm not going to mention the

 3    name of the man, nor am I going to mention what state is referred to

 4    here.  So please don't go into private session.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The problem is that if we put or

 6    display a document on the screen, if that document can be identified by an

 7    individual whilst it was indicated that this could only be done in private

 8    session, that creates a problem.  What was in private session was the

 9    question you put on the basis of this document.

10            Ms. Dahl.

11            MS. DAHL:  The paper copy of the law enforcement agency report I

12    gave the registrar's representative indicates the source of the report and

13    its confidential nature, so it would not be appropriate to broadcast it on

14    the ELMO.

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that this

16    could be put to the witness.  I'm just going to quote one sentence which,

17    in itself, says nothing with respect to the subject matter and the name of

18    the person who Mr. Stoparic brought.

19            Mr. Stoparic, to the police of that western country said that he

20    personally, quite literally, had taken by the hand this -- a certain man,

21    took him by the hand and took him to see Natasa Kandic and he confessed to

22    Natasa Kandic, as is later said here, that he to lie earlier, but after

23    talking to her I assume he decided to tell the truth and that is to be

24    found on page 65.  I gave you the ERN number.  If you wish to go into

25    private session, I would rather withdraw my question because I'm not

Page 2769

 1    interested in private sessions at all.

 2            So I will be ready to retract the question straight away if you

 3    mean to go into private session.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  The private session

 5    was to prevent this document from being seen outside this courtroom.  If

 6    it is not put on the ELMO, nobody will see it.

 7            So we're going to show that document to the witness.

 8            Witness, please look at the document.

 9            Mr. Seselj, put your question.

10            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, take a look at the third paragraph from the bottom

12    and then the fourth sentence in that paragraph.  Later on that man - don't

13    give his name - and then start with the following, that I personally

14    literally would take him by the hand and so on.  It's the third paragraph

15    from the bottom, the fourth sentence.  The name of the man is mentioned

16    but are you to refrain from doing so and it is on page 65, the ERN is

17    06247275.

18       A.   Do you want me to answer?

19            MS. DAHL:  Could I ask Mr. Seselj to republish the page that he's

20    referring to.  I'm making arrangements to have a proper copy for the

21    Chambers brought.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, please.  Give that number

23    again, Mr. Seselj.

24            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page number is 65 and the ERN number

25    is 06247275.  I assume that the ERN number is more important because each

Page 2770

 1    side has a separate ERN number, each page.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Right, so the ERN number is

 3    06247275, is that right?

 4            Whilst you were speaking the witness had a look at the text, so

 5    you can ask your question now.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He has already asked the question.

 7            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation].

 8       Q.   I've already asked the question.  You told this to the police of

 9    this particular western country.

10       A.   I remember the interview with the police from that western

11    country.  The interview was conducted in the following manner.  Nothing

12    was written down but there was an audiotape of the interview and I read

13    this and was very surprised, because somewhere in this report you'll find

14    that I am married to an Albanian woman and that's an absolute lie.  I

15    brought this to the attention of many people and warned them.  Now, I'm

16    not saying that certain police forces are prone to lying or not but they

17    investigated something and wanted to deal with someone from their own

18    state.  And later on that man was freed.  But everything was very badly

19    translated, so --

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly slow down again

21    please.

22            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   I read through this statement and it doesn't say that you married

24    an Albanian lady but that you got to know an Albanian and that she told

25    you how the Albanians lived in Kosovo and then afterwards you sort of saw

Page 2771

 1    the light.

 2       A.   The Serb judge who call me during the investigation process in a

 3    case linked to this told me precisely that I was married and then he

 4    showed me some things from this, and I told him that I was very surprised

 5    why that was so and I asked him why don't have you the audiotape what was

 6    made.

 7       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, well, I'm a little more intelligent, I assume, than

 8    that Serb judge.  I don't let myself be caught in plots like that.  I

 9    don't say that you're married to an Albanian woman.  I'm not thinking up

10    the contents of the transcript, so don't mix me up with that Serbian

11    judge.

12       A.   I just mentioned him.  I didn't know that this existed of.  The

13    only thing I knew was that there was an audiotape, an audio recording, and

14    if this exists then an audio recording must exist and you can compare the

15    two.

16            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Ms. Dahl.

18            MS. DAHL:  I think that there's been a mistake in the record or

19    perhaps Mr. Seselj's understanding.  He accused Mr. Stoparic of having

20    admitted to Ms. Kandic in this -- that he had lied and I just read the

21    statement and the transcript of the portion that Mr. Seselj was referring

22    to, and it says that Mr. Stoparic explained that the gentleman who we're

23    not naming admitted that he had to lie, not that Mr. Stoparic had admitted

24    to lying.  And I think that that was the beginning of the

25    cross-examination, and I want to make sure that there is no misleading

Page 2772

 1    statements made about what Mr. Stoparic has done and said.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes.

 3            Mr. Seselj, the Prosecution says that it is Mr. X who admitted

 4    that he'd lied, not Mr. Stoparic.

 5            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I precisely said so in the Serbian

 6    language, namely, that Mr. Stoparic had brought in a certain man and that

 7    that man, after talking to Natasa Kandic, admitted that he had lied and

 8    then decided to change his statement.  I never said that Mr. Stoparic

 9    lied.  Perhaps the interpretation is not good enough, but Mr. Stoparic

10    remembers this and you have a recording of what I said.

11            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

12    continues]... To say that that is what I understood too in French so it

13    was just a matter of interpretation into English.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, and do endeavour to speak

15    more slowly.  You see, you speak so fast that inevitably, there can be

16    errors in the interpretation and that can also have consequences but it

17    was very clear in French.

18            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, this police of this western country, on the 3rd of

20    June, 2004, you stated to them that you had become so close to Mrs.

21    Kandic, and now I'm quoting what you said, that you had the keys to both

22    her apartment and to her offices.  That is on page 53 of your statement to

23    the western law enforcement service.  Is it true?

24       A.   Partially.

25       Q.   What does "partially" mean?

Page 2773

 1       A.   I had the keys to her flat.

 2       Q.   Meaning that you could go into her flat when she was not there?

 3       A.   Yes.  I stayed there when she was not present.

 4       Q.   And you also were there when she was present?

 5       A.   Yes, also when she was present.

 6       Q.   Does that mean or, rather, that means you a person in whom Madame

 7    Kandic had maximum confidence, right?

 8       A.   Well, if someone lets you into their flat and lets you sleep over

 9    there their flat, it is quite clear that they have confidence in you.

10       Q.   So I'm not going to go into the nature of your relationship, but

11    this was a relationship of maximum confidence since she gave you the keys

12    to her apartment?

13       A.   This was the only way in which she could save my life because I

14    was unable to move.

15       Q.   Well, Mr. Stoparic, luckily enough, your life is saved.

16    Ms. Kandic got you in touch with people from the American embassy in

17    Belgrade on repeated occasions, did she not, Mr. Stoparic?

18       A.   I remember one instance.

19       Q.   But you stated it was in several instances, didn't you?

20       A.   I now remember one.  At that time I might have recalled more.  I

21    had lots of talks.  But I'm quite certain that they were people from the

22    American embassy.

23       Q.   On the 3rd June, this western police -- you stated to this western

24    police this, which is on page 49 of the transcript, that through the

25    mediation of Natasa Kandic you had a number of talks with representatives

Page 2774

 1    of the US embassy?

 2       A.   Perhaps I said foreign embassies but it is quite sure that one of

 3    them was the American embassy.

 4       Q.   But here it is only stated the American embassy?

 5       A.   I already said that the audio recording should be consulted in

 6    this regard.

 7       Q.   Very well, Mr. Stoparic.  Let us just note that.

 8            You talked with -- to Natasa Kandic on many instances about your

 9    pending testimony in my case before it even started.

10       A.   Believe me, I did not.

11       Q.   Well, you did.  And when you started giving your testimony on the

12    very first day, Natasa Kandic also sent you a SMS message?

13       A.   Yes, and I said as much.

14       Q.   Yes.  And she asked you how you were, right?

15       A.   Yes, she did.

16       Q.   And then she told that you the radicals were wreaking chaos in

17    Serbia, did she not?

18       A.   Yes, she did.

19       Q.   And what conclusion did you draw from her words?

20       A.   I will ask her and call her only after finishing this testimony

21    what that meant.  What conclusion I had respect of this chaos statement, I

22    don't know.  She said nothing new.  I'm not going into the relationship

23    that you have or she has vis-a-vis whom she likes or doesn't like.  Well,

24    I took the message to actually mean exerting pressure on future witnesses.

25       Q.   Future witnesses.  Was not that message actually exerting pressure

Page 2775

 1    on you, Mr. Stoparic?

 2       A.   If it was, it could not have frightened me.

 3       Q.   But I think you did strike one as quite frightened for a couple of

 4    days.  But let us not talk about anything that might require the session

 5    to be closed.

 6       A.   We all know why.

 7       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you agreed -- about your complete testimony with

 8    Natasa Kandic in my case?

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

10    continues] ... Madame Dahl.

11            MS. DAHL:  Beginning at hour 15, minute 514 where the subject of

12    private session previously, and I'd request the redaction of that

13    passage.  It appears Mr. Seselj has moved on to a new topic so that would

14    be the complete portion of my request.

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not understand what should be

16    redacted.

17                          [Trial Chamber confers]

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The Trial Chamber has decided

19    that the part said in public -- in open session should remain public.

20            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judges.

21            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22       Q.   So with Natasa Kandic, you consulted with Natasa Kandic about your

23    entire testimony in my case?

24       A.   No, that is not true.

25       Q.   Yes, it is true, Mr. Stoparic.  But I'm quite aware of the fact

Page 2776

 1    that you will not admit it to -- admit to it easily.

 2            However, what happened, your testimony was way too ambitious so

 3    that you were in fact unable to remember to memorize all the falsehoods

 4    that were suggested to you and then --

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Leave him time to answer.

 6    Otherwise, you are testifying.  So --

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I have not posed my question

 8    yet, Judge.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  But your question might be

10    very long and it is going to make everything more complicated.  You said

11    that your testimony was overambitious and he can say, yes, no, and then

12    you can continue.  Otherwise, Ms. Dahl is going to be on her feet and say

13    you are testifying and then we fall back into the same problem, same

14    procedural problem.

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not testifying.

16    I'm actually putting a leading question to the witness, which is my right

17    in cross-examination, and I'm precisely asking him a leading question and

18    it is at a full discretion of the witness to state his view, to respond.

19    I should have liked him more to have responded immediately when I ask him

20    question rather than after your de-valuable [as interpreted] break which

21    you gave him right now.

22            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   So this testimony of yours was designed, was projected to be false

24    in its entirety in all of its aspects and then during the proofing, during

25    the preparations which lasted for a couple of days and several days in

Page 2777

 1    early January, the Prosecutor's realised that there is no man alive on

 2    this planet that can remember so many falsehoods so that they actually had

 3    you focus on repeating lies only in connection of possible developments in

 4    Vojvodina and to speak about other thins as they actually unfolded

 5    according to your discretion.

 6       A.   Do you expect me to confirm it?

 7       Q.   You have to confirm it.  You can deny it.  You -- say yes or no

 8    and then we can proceed.

 9       A.   I was not instructed.

10       Q.   We have already seen all the deviations you have made from your

11    statements in both the examination-in-chief and in cross-examination and

12    the statement which was written for you by the OTP and which you signed.

13    However, you made the effort to memorize the lies that were suggested to

14    you and concern Vojvodina so that now we're going to analyse those lies.

15            First and foremost, Mr. Stoparic, you lied when you said that the

16    Serbian Radical Party in Sid had set up a distinct paramilitary

17    organisation by establishing platoons and squads of members of the Serbian

18    Chetnik Movement, did you not?  That was a lie, you lied?

19       A.   I attended a number of meetings of the chapter of the Serbian

20    Chetnik Movement.  There were squads and platoons.  I'm not going to name

21    any people but none of these people is any longer a member of the Serbian

22    Radical Party.

23       Q.   But you stated in your statement, Mr. Stoparic, that this was done

24    throughout Serbia, didn't you?

25       A.   I have the absolute right to state something of the kind if it is

Page 2778

 1    something that I had heard from a person whom I considered competent and

 2    knowledgeable.

 3       Q.   But you talked about the setting up of Black Troikas?

 4       A.   Yes, there was word about it in our parts.  You yourself in fact

 5    once said that some local boards issued booklets of the Serbian Chetnik

 6    Movement so you were not able to control it throughout the territory.

 7       Q.   But, Mr. Stoparic, this is not the same thing.  Identity cards or

 8    membership cards are one thing and the forming of Black Troikas is

 9    something else, because these are liquidation groups.

10       A.   Yes, some clandestine groups.

11       Q.   No, not secret groups.  You know what Troikas -- Black Troikas

12    have been in history.

13       A.   They killed the king.

14       Q.   No, they did not kill the king.  That is what you said in

15    examination-in-chief.  You said that the Dragutin Dimitrijevic Apis, who

16    was a Colonel of the former Serbian army, formed such Black Troikas.

17       A.   That is not what I said and that is something that I seem to

18    recollect from my memory but I'm not sure.

19       Q.   I will try to refresh your memory, Mr. Stoparic.  Dragutin

20    Dimitrijevic Apis actually led the secret officers organisation called the

21    Black Hand, which killed the King Aleksander Obrenovic in 1903, did he

22    not?

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  One moment.

24            Ms. Dahl.

25            MS. DAHL:  I'm consulting the transcript from Mr. Stoparic's

Page 2779

 1    direct examination, and these matters were conducted in private session

 2    and I believe that the cross-examination deserves the same treatment,

 3    specific reference to the official English transcript, page 2464.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, but on the issue of the

 5    Black Troika, there's no reason why this should be done in private

 6    session.

 7            Continue.

 8            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something?

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes.

10            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I remember well that Mr. Stoparic

11    asked for a private session only on account of one name.  I'm absolutely

12    not going to mention that name.  So please do not allow the session to go

13    into private session.  I remember that distinctly.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we continue in open

15    session, but please do not give the name.

16            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I absolutely will not mention the

17    name, Mr. President.

18            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   And the Black Troikas were established by the Chetnik movement of

20    Draza Mihajlovic and he sent them in the Second World War to kill the

21    collaborators of the German occupier in Belgrade, right?

22       A.   Possible.

23       Q.   Afterwards, in all fairness, these Black Troikas also liquidated

24    some communist leaders, did they not?

25       A.   Well, you say that they are associated with the Chetnik Movement.

Page 2780

 1       Q.   Yes, but with the Chetnik Movement from the Second World War.  Let

 2    me remind you of another thing.  Draza Mihajlovic sent a Black Troika to

 3    liquidate the Chetnik duke Vojvoda Kosta Pacanac because Kosta Pacanac

 4    collaborated with the Germans.  Do you know that?

 5       A.   I don't know such details.

 6       Q.   You don't, okay.  So these Black Troikas were actually suggested

 7    to you by someone who is much more versed in history than you are so that

 8    you-- so that these lies might compromise or discredit the Serbian Radical

 9    Party as having virtually -- as having practically established not only a

10    paramilitary organisation but also terrorist groups, right?

11       A.   This is it not the -- I never looked at it at the time as a

12    terrorist group.

13       Q.   What could a Black Troika be but a terrorist group?  What else

14    would it be doing but liquidating people, right?

15       A.   You just said now whom they liquidated.

16       Q.   But who were the Black Troika supposed to liquidate?

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Just a moment, please.  You're

18    going too fast.

19            The witness, Mr. Stoparic, Mr. Seselj is going so fast that he

20    forgot to put a question to you but it is an appropriate question,

21    actually.  When the word "Black Troika" appears in your statement, it is

22    you who quoted the Black Troika from your own mind or was it an

23    investigator or somebody put that question to you?

24            So did you mention that expression because your cultural

25    background allows you to go back in history and pull that out of your

Page 2781

 1    mind, or was it an investigator or Ms. Kandic who mentioned this to you?

 2            What happened exactly?  How did this come about?  How was this

 3    mentioned?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the expression, the

 5    term "Black Troikas" and I know this from when I was very young, this was

 6    something that was referred to during communist times.  Only within one's

 7    families, one dare not speak about these things.  I don't know how the

 8    investigators would know about them.  I don't know.  Maybe they did.

 9    Natasa Kandic was not in contact with me.  I referred to what I knew and

10    to some of my recollections.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So yourself

12    mentioned it.

13            Very well.  Thank you.

14            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   Then it was suggested to you to sign a false statement to the

16    effect that the boards of the Serbian Radical Party proceeded in an

17    organised manner to intimidating citizens of Croat ethnicity in Sid and

18    other places in Srem, didn't you?  Wasn't that not the case?

19       A.   Boards?  This is a difficult word.  It was perhaps some people.

20       Q.   Who gave them this task, who told them to do that?

21       A.   I don't know.  Maybe they did it of their own accord.  In

22    conditions of impunity everything went.

23       Q.   How come, Mr. Stoparic, that some of the alleged incidents had not

24    been even registered at all?

25       A.   Well, now I'm looking at myself as a Croat and, for instance, I'm

Page 2782

 1    subjected to certain harassment.  It does not necessarily have to be

 2    physical, it can be psychological and, I am afraid to report to the police

 3    because the police is also Serbian and somehow in my mind I have already

 4    classified them as enemies somehow.  This is probably -- this is what

 5    probably was the case or there were probably cases when people just did

 6    not think that they would be assisted by the Serbian authorities which

 7    does not have to be true.

 8       Q.   By, Mr. Stoparic, I can see that you're now retracting in this

 9    regard.  You said that it was not the boards that organised the

10    intimidation.  You just that a while ago.

11       A.   I said it could have been somebody's own initiative.  I never

12    attended a session where such orders were issued.

13       Q.   Yes, but in the examination-in-chief you repeated that you

14    exchanged people between boards so you would go to other boards'

15    territories as un -- to intimidate people as unknown people to the locals?

16       A.   And I have explained that as well.  I have explained that as

17    well.  I explained how it was that I found out about that.

18       Q.   You invented all of that, didn't you?  What was the year you said

19    that I held a rally in Kukujevci?

20            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I would like Mr. Stoparic to be able to

21    answer Mr. Seselj's question.  Mr. Stoparic was asked whether he had

22    invented facts, and that accusation deserves an answer.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Can you answer,

24    Mr. Stoparic?  Did you invent it all?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I myself spoke of what I remembered,

Page 2783

 1    everything that was in my head, I tried to go back to those times and I

 2    put it all together.  There are no inventions or at least I didn't invent

 3    anything deliberately.  Whether it was a lie or not, there's the Trial

 4    Chamber to decide whether that was the case.

 5            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, I have a letter of yours here that you sent to a

 7    friend of yours.  Please identify this and tell us whether this is indeed

 8    your letter or not.  Don't mention the friend's name.  It doesn't matter.

 9    This is your letter to a friend of yours before you emigrated?

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl.

11            MS. DAHL:  I'd like an opportunity before the witness is given the

12    letter to review it.  This is highly irregular.

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, when a party

14    produces a document, they must mention when -- where the document stems

15    from.  Maybe it is the person who received the letter who forwarded it to

16    you, for instance, because let's just suppose that this letter was, for

17    instance, stolen, that letter could not be shown or used in Court, a

18    document that would have been obtained through a fraudulent means.  Maybe

19    a witness gave it to you or else, but have you to tell us the source of

20    this document.

21            Do you have the source?

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

23            This document is from the person to whom the letter was addressed

24    to originally.  He submitted it to my legal advisors and they faxed it to

25    me.  It is Mr. Stoparic's handwriting.  The Prosecutor had a look at the

Page 2784

 1    document, and I kindly ask you to instruct Mr. Stoparic to read the letter

 2    without mentioning the name that is stated at the beginning of the letter.

 3            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I have a tab that can conceal the name I

 4    think.  I think it is perfectly appropriate to have that redacted so

 5    that -- if it is appropriate to publish.  But I'll let Mr. Stoparic cover

 6    the name and make sure that it is properly concealed.

 7            And I'd ask that Mr. Seselj refrain from testifying about the

 8    document and put the questions regarding handwriting and source and things

 9    like that to the witness himself.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, very well.  The witness

11    will therefore take a look at the letter and tell us if he recognises the

12    letter and then Mr. Seselj will be able to put questions on the content of

13    the letter.

14            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, I was not testifying about

15    the document.  I was answering your question as to what the source of the

16    document was.  Please do not allow such insinuations.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So now please put

18    questions regarding the document.

19            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   Would you please be so kind, Mr. Stoparic, as to read the entire

21    letter except for the original form of address.  Please read it out.

22       A.   Mr. Seselj, this is it not my letter.  I don't write letters

23    ever.  And it is not my handwriting.  Somebody tried to copy this.  I

24    mean, even this postscript is.

25       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, I am going to submit a request for a graphology, a

Page 2785

 1    handwriting expert, expertise.  Before Mr. Stoparic leaves the court,

 2    could he write a text in printed letters that could be used for a

 3    handwriting expertise?

 4       A.   I completely reject that.  I'm sorry that I'm laughing, but this

 5    is really very funny.  It is not my letter.

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  I am not an expert, but I've

 7    been a -- involved in criminal trials for 30 years, so I have some

 8    knowledge about graphology.  So when you write, do you use block letters

 9    or do you -- how do you write?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I write in the Latin alphabet.  I

11    use block letters.  But, at any rate, that's not what they look like.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes.  But if you, for instance,

13    send a letter to somebody, to a lady, will you put "madam" with a capital

14    M or will you just write "madam" in block letters.  How would you

15    write "madam," for instance?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I very rarely write letters.  In

17    this time of mobile telephones, never.  I'll tell you, this letter was

18    written -- well, I'll tell you.

19            The man that this letter was addressed to was actually the author

20    of this letter.  He wrote it with the assistance of somebody.  It is

21    ridiculous.  Quite ridiculous.  This is not my letter.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  I notice when I look at your

23    statement, your signature, which does not correspond to the signature on

24    this document --

25            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question, actually,

Page 2786

 1    regarding this letter.

 2            In Serbian, do you write usually in Cyrillic or in Latin

 3    characters?  Which characters do you use?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I almost always use the Latin

 5    alphabet when I write.

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.

 7            Mr. Seselj, why do you think that the letter comes from the

 8    witness?  What tells you that you're not manipulated, for instance, by the

 9    person who sent you this letter?

10            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, yesterday I showed you in

11    closed session the statement of a certain individual, 11 pages long.

12    That's the man to whom this letter was addressed and this man is going to

13    be a Defence witness for my Defence and he testifies that this is an

14    authentic letter that he received from Mr. Stoparic.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?  I'm being

16    accused here of having written a letter, which I never -- I mean, I never

17    wrote a letter to this man, not then, not before that, nor will I ever

18    write him a letter.  Now, whether this gentleman is going be a witness

19    here or not, that is his own affair.  When he is a witness here then he

20    can establish everything.  It is not right, since his name was not

21    disclosed, for me to give my opinion of this man now.  I'm simply not

22    going to do anything about it now, but I tell you, when he comes, ask him

23    about this letter.  Ms. Dahl will be able to cross-examine him about that

24    letter, and as Mr. Seselj says, I agree, I agree to be subjected to some

25    specialist from the police with regard to this particular matter.  I mean,

Page 2787

 1    I even agreed to Mr. Seselj choosing the expert and then we'll see whether

 2    I wrote something this nebulous.  It is not my handwriting, not at all,

 3    nor do I have the habit of writing in that order.  I write in a different

 4    way.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  Now let's set aside

 6    the fact whether you're the author of the letter or not.  What I'm

 7    interested in actually is the content of the letter.

 8            Would you be able to read the content of the letter, Mr. Seselj,

 9    just to see what the relevance is.  If it is completely irrelevant, then

10    there is no problem.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I absolutely deny that

12    I wrote this and I do not allow this to have this signed of nebulous thing

13    read out in public and in this way to besmirch my name.

14                          [Trial Chamber confers]

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  So the majority voted - I say

16    majority because we have a dissenting opinion - but the Trial Chamber

17    decided that Mr. Seselj should not read the contents of this letter.

18            So the letter will be given back to Mr. Seselj, who will then use

19    that letter and show it to his witness when his witness is called to the

20    bar.

21            Is that what you wanted to say, Ms. Dahl?

22            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I'd like it marked for identification and

23    I'd like a copy and I'd also request that I receive a copy of the

24    statement Mr. Seselj just mentioned, because that was neither marked nor

25    copied for the Prosecution.

Page 2788

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, this letter, would

 2    you like it to be tendered so that we can get -- so that we can give it an

 3    identification number?

 4            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If the letter is read out.  Why

 5    would it be admitted into evidence if it wasn't read out?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I also think that I

 7    can appeal to you to decide that I be subjected to this kind of expertise,

 8    because I cannot go home in peace now, having been accused of this.  I

 9    really want expertise.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The Trial Chamber will look at

11    the problem.

12            MS. DAHL:  It's a very serious matter to perpetrate a fraud on the

13    Court and I don't think that the document should remain unmarked and

14    outside the record by Mr. Seselj's wish.  He is brought it into Court, he

15    has referred to it.  I with like it marked and I want a copy and we will

16    wait and see whether the individual who purports to have received such a

17    letter and identified the author shows up.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  This Trial Chamber

19    voted by a majority, because I have a dissident opinion, is asking the

20    trial clerk to mark this document for identification.

21            But I would like to mention the following.  It seems to me, to my

22    eyes, that it is impossible to tender a document of which Judges don't

23    know the content.  This is what I wanted to say.

24            So, Mr. Registrar, please give a number for identification.

25            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, that will be MFI D5.

Page 2789

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  Thank you very

 2    much.

 3            Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

 4            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you mentioned that in the summer of 1991 I held a

 6    rally in Kukujevci, is that right?

 7       A.   Rally in Kukujevci, there was a rally in Kukujevci.

 8       Q.   Yes, you said on the 16th of January during the

 9    examination-in-chief that this took place in the summer of 1991?

10       A.   I don't remember.

11       Q.   It's in the transcript.  It's the beginning of the hearing on the

12    16th of January?.

13            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, would you kindly check this

14    in the transcript.  I noted it down that Mr. Stoparic said that.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I always said that I was very bad

16    with dates.

17            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, however, according to the information of the Serb

19    Radical Party, I visited Kukujevci on the 15th of May, 1993.  And that is

20    when a public meeting was held, like in hundreds of other villages, in the

21    area of Vojvodina.  This is 1993 and 1994.  So you made a mistake in terms

22    of two years.  Isn't that right?

23       A.   Mr. Seselj, I made a mistake with the date.  But as for what I

24    described, you may recall I said that there was even a lunch organised at

25    the school or was it just a speech and some conference.  I described what

Page 2790

 1    it looked like.  This is to say whether it on that date or not, I always

 2    cautioned about that, that I do not remember dates.

 3       Q.   Yes.  But you said that Jovica Stegic, the owner of Lasta agency,

 4    that was a real estate agency involved in the exchange of real estate, was

 5    a sponsor of the Serb Radical Party and organised that lunch in Kukujevci?

 6       A.   I remember that.  I'm sure that he was a sponsor, absolutely.

 7       Q.   I have photocopies here from Jovica Stegic's military booklet.  We

 8    can place this on the overhead projector.

 9            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, this is a photocopy of the

10    page where his name is referred to and this is the photocopy of the page

11    where it is obvious that from the 4th of March until the 18th of August,

12    1993 he participated in the war and that he was a soldier in Knin.

13            MS. DAHL:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, the individual whose booklet

14    this apparently is, the name isn't appearing on the transcript and I

15    haven't seen the document nor have I been provided with copies.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, would you be able

17    to give the name of this person and could you please spell the name so

18    that it can be written in the transcript.

19            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] J-o-v-i-c-a, S-p-e-g-i-c-e

20    diacritic.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Just a moment, please.  The

22    transcript was not able to jot it down.  Ah, here it is.

23            Mr. Seselj, could you please repeat your question.  We now have

24    the document on the ELMO.

25            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 2791

 1       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, from this document, can you see that it is

 2    impossible that Jovica Stegic was in Kukujevci at the same time when I

 3    spoke publicly there?

 4       A.   Judging by the documents, it is impossible, but in practice, that

 5    wasn't how it was.

 6       Q.   In practice that wasn't how it was.  Does that mean that the

 7    documents are lying?

 8       A.   No.  Let me explain.  I'm sorry, I didn't know I was interrupting

 9    you.

10            The documents don't lie but it is no secret that people who lived

11    in Serbia dealt with business of varying -- various kinds, were in

12    business, and since they were military conscripts, they were always

13    recorded as members of some units so that they wouldn't be answerable.

14            Now, Mr. Seselj, since you have photocopied this booklet, I'd like

15    to see the first page, because I could recognise the man, if I saw his

16    photograph.

17       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you'll recognise him on the screen when he comes in

18    to testify as a Defence witness.

19            Anyway, Jovica Stegic, on the 14th of January, 2008, gave a

20    statement which was certified by the competent authorities in Serbia in

21    which he refutes everything that you said here.  Would you hand out this

22    statement, please, copies for the Trial Chamber, for Mr. Stoparic, and the

23    Prosecution?

24            MS. DAHL: Sorry, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl.

Page 2792

 1            MS. DAHL:  It violates the Chamber's guidelines that were

 2    reiterated in Court when Mr. Seselj began his cross-examination.  If he's

 3    going to confront or put to the witness information that is from someone

 4    else it is to come in the form of a question about the information, not

 5    concerning another individual and if this is anything like the other

 6    statements that were distributed, they're not under oath, they're not

 7    judicial interrogatories and they're not in a working language of the

 8    Tribunal.

 9            I'm very disadvantaged.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The problem is the following:

11    This person who, according to the witness, would have been present, and

12    this is what he said in his written statement, would have apparently been

13    elsewhere -- is purported to be elsewhere while he was supposed to be

14    here, and the accused managed to obtain a statement from the person in

15    question, which confirms the argument presented by the accused.  The

16    document is in Cyrillic, however, and I myself am not capable to

17    translate, but Mr. Seselj will be able to put a question and will be able

18    to tell us what paragraph he is referring to so that we can get a

19    translation and the interpreters who know Cyrillic will be able to

20    translate it for us.

21            So please put your question, Mr. Seselj.

22            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, have you been given the document?

24       A.   It's in front of me.

25       Q.   Would you please read out loud paragraph 4 of that document.

Page 2793

 1       A.   Mr. Seselj, it's very difficult for me to read any of your

 2    documents after that letter I saw a moment ago because I can't believe

 3    that anything like that could have happened to you.

 4       Q.   Well, if it's difficult for you, do your best to overcome the

 5    difficulty.

 6            MS. DAHL:  [Previous translation continues] ... Your Honour, this

 7    is not proper procedure.  I cannot react appropriately --

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The procedure is I am the one

 9    who decides on the procedure when it comes to the presentation of the

10    evidence.

11            So, Mr. Seselj, please read paragraph number 4 in your language

12    and the interpreters will tell us what it is about.

13            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovica Stegic in paragraph 4

14    states as follow:  I'm not, as Mr. Stoparic claims, from Srem but with my

15    family I settled from Zagreb on the 1st of February, 1992.  My family

16    exchanged without -- sight unseen a house in Zagreb for a house in

17    Kukujevci - and I would like to underline this in particular - a house in

18    Zagreb for a house in Kukujevci, so a house in a major city such as Zagreb

19    for a house in an out-of-the way village.  The value of the land that we

20    had in Zagreb was at least three times greater than the property which we

21    were given in Kukujevci.  When the exchange had taken place, I and my

22    family did not even know where Kukujevci was.  My mother is a Croatian

23    lady from Zagorje, but because she was married to a Serb, she was sacked

24    in the company she had worked for and this happened six months before she

25    was supposed to retire and because of threats which she was exposed to on

Page 2794

 1    a daily -- which my family was exposed to on a daily basis.  She was

 2    forced to enter into this exchange and exchange her property for the first

 3    person that offered it without knowing where they were going or what

 4    property awaited them over there.

 5            Now, my question to you is this:  Mr. Stoparic, for 15 years you

 6    have known Jovica Stegic, is that right?

 7       A.   That's what he claims.

 8       Q.   Do you know him for that many years?  Have you known him for that

 9    many years?  Perhaps you know him longer, not for a shorter period of

10    time.

11       A.   I know him by sight and in talking to him on a couple of

12    occasions.   When I say I know someone, it means that I visit them in

13    their home and so on.

14       Q.   Well, you can't go home visiting with all your acquaintances.

15       A.   That's why I said, and if you provided me with a photograph, I

16    could have told you.

17       Q.   However, Mr. Stoparic, you and Jovica Stegic just don't agree on

18    one single detail.  You claim that you knew him in 1991 and that he

19    sponsored a lunch in my honour in Kukujevci on the occasion, whereas he

20    claims that he arrived only in 1992.  Isn't that right?

21       A.   Well, we've already discussed that and I said he sponsored the

22    Kukujevci lunch, but, you see, I couldn't remember the exact date, so you

23    shouldn't take dates.  I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a spy to record all the

24    dates.  That's just how it is.

25       Q.   Now why --

Page 2795

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Hold on, Mr. Seselj, we're

 2    going to have a break.

 3            First the registrar must give the military booklet a number.

 4            Mr. Registrar, could we please have a number.

 5            THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D6.

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Second question, Mr. Seselj.

 7    This hearing, you know, about the apartment and you've just read out the

 8    fourth paragraph, do you also went to tender this document?

 9            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, on the basis of the text that

10    I read out, I'd like to question the witness further.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, you will ask questions.

12    But do you want a number or not?

13            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think that you could record

14    it, but it's early for it to be tendered because the man should come in

15    here to testify live.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Madam.

17            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, this is simply to mark it for

18    identification rather than tender it.  It should not get lost in the

19    record that this trial creates --

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, absolutely that is what we

21    will -- how we will proceed, so we need a MFI number for the last

22    document, please.

23            THE REGISTRAR:  It will be MFI D7.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well, Mr. Seselj.  You had

25    asked me how much time was left.  Well, you had 1 hour and 45 minutes when

Page 2796

 1    the hearing started.  I don't know how many -- I don't know what you've

 2    used up so far, but when we reconvene I will tell you how much time you

 3    will have left.  But we will not reconvene before 7.00 p.m.

 4            THE INTERPRETER:  5.00 p.m., interpreter's correction.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  So we shall reconvene at 5.00

 6    p.m.

 7                          --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

 8                          --- On resuming at 5.18 p.m.

 9                          [The accused entered court]

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  The hearing is

11    resumed.

12            I'm sorry for this interruption.  It was a bit longer than

13    expected.

14            Mr. Seselj, you have 50 minutes left for your cross-examination.

15    I will give you the floor.

16            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  Microphone, please.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Just a minute.  Put your

18    microphone on, please.

19            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interpreter first said that I

20    had 15 minutes so I was astounded, and then he put himself right and said

21    50, so that's all right now, yes.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  50.

23            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And that's the same according to my

24    calculations.

25            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 2797

 1       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, my next question is going to be based on the

 2    contents of the following paragraph in the statement of Jovica Stegic.  So

 3    I'm going to read it out and then I'm going to ask to you either

 4    acknowledge or refute what he says, confirm or deny.

 5            So listen carefully and I think you have been provided with the

 6    text.  "The Serbs who came from major Croatian cities did not have the

 7    possibility of coming to Serbia and see the real estate for which they

 8    exchanged their property, while the Croats, from the Roman Catholic church

 9    and the Djakovica bishopsy were given certificates of the Croats with the

10    help of whom they were freely able to go to Croatia and look for property

11    for themselves and then go back to Serbia."

12            And he says:  "That is why Mr. Stoparic's claim does not stand

13    that the Croatians were tricked by being shown pictures of houses which

14    looked good, whereas in Serbia, considerably -- houses were in

15    considerably worse condition where waiting for them, whereas in practice

16    the actual state of affairs was quite the reverse?

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Ms. Dahl.

18            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, it seem to me that what is being revealed

19    in the publication of this passage is that this person who has provided

20    Mr. Seselj a statement watched the testimony and now is commenting on it

21    and attempting to refute it, and I think that that violates the Trial

22    Chamber's guidelines.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Well, this is another problem.

24    The person who testified -- who made this testimony will come and will be

25    called, so we'll confront him with it.

Page 2798

 1            Mr. Seselj, please finish reading this paragraph and ask your

 2    question.

 3            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   I have read out the passage and now here comes my question.

 5            Mr. Stoparic, do you have knowledge to the effect that the priests

 6    of the Roman Catholic church would collect information about the property

 7    of Serbs that was abandoned in Croatian and then would inform the Croats

 8    before any contracts on the exchange of property were concluded so that in

 9    that way they checked the situation out first, what the actual situation

10    was and what the houses concerned were like in Croatia?

11       A.   I believe that every individual who wanted to exchange their house

12    with somebody tried to check it out first.  That would be logical.

13            Now, whether the Croatian bishopric or Croatian priests did this,

14    well, I never talked to any Croatian priests to know whether they did

15    engage in things like that or not.

16            Can I see the screen again and have this other piece of paper

17    removed from the overhead projector.

18       Q.   So you didn't hear that there was mediation by the priests.  All

19    right, so that is an answer.

20            So now I am going to read out the following paragraph.  There'll

21    be another two or three paragraphs.  I'm not going to read the entire

22    text.  The owners of the Lasta agency, and you spoke about the Lasta

23    agency at length, were my wife, Mileva Stegic, and myself, we were the

24    owners.  The agency for the first seven or eight months was called Juga

25    and after that the name was changed and it became known as Lasta.  The

Page 2799

 1    agency, throughout the time, until the present day, was officially

 2    registered and it functioned in conformity with the law.

 3            The Serbian Radical Party had nothing to do with the founding of

 4    the agency, nor did it receive any income and remuneration from the work

 5    of the agency.  I personally, nor the Lasta agency never financed the

 6    Serbian  Radical Party.

 7            Now, what do you think?  Is that a -- correct or not, to the best

 8    of your knowledge?

 9       A.   I said that it was a private firm and the gentleman here talks

10    about its establishment and says that the Radical Party had nothing to do

11    with the establishment of the Lasta agency and I never said it did have

12    any connection.  I said it was a private firm and I added that I was sure

13    that he was a sponsor like many other businessmen in the town of Sid of

14    the Serbian Radical Party.

15            THE INTERPRETER:  And then the witness said something the

16    interpreter didn't catch.

17            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   So on the basis of concrete knowledge you say that they were

19    sponsors or you assume that they were probably sponsors, which is it?

20       A.   I remember now, on one occasion, I was with Mr. Petric, we were

21    visiting this gentleman in his office, and for a time that office was in

22    my street, in Sedni Uli Street.  That's where it was located for a time,

23    and I know that Mr. Petric told him about some financial problems, they

24    weren't major financial problems, and I'm quite convinced that he solved

25    the problem for him.

Page 2800

 1       Q.   Was that Petric's personal problem or a party problem?

 2       A.   Petric did not ask for money for himself, for his own personal

 3    needs and then to issue a receipt to that effect.  You know that there is

 4    an annual assembly where the party adopts a budget, everything has to be

 5    put down on black and white, how many -- what money came in, what money

 6    went out, so I don't believe so.  But Petric was a well-to-do man.  He had

 7    a cafe, he was the proprietor of a cafe, he didn't need to ask for money,

 8    so I think that he asked for money for the party and the functioning of

 9    the party, I don't think I know.

10       Q.   Because as in the Serbian Radical Party a final balance is adopted

11    every year at the end of the year, did you see any receipt or certificate

12    to the effect that Jovica Stegic gave some money to the party?

13       A.   Well, I can't remember any details like that now.

14       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Stoparic.  Let's not dwell on that now.

15            Now, in the next paragraph Jovica Stegic says the following: "The

16    agency functioned on the territory of the whole of Vojvodina and the

17    Croats would contact us from places like Kukujevci, Hrtkovci, Subotica,

18    Zednik and other places.  They would contact us freely and themselves

19    state which Croatian town they would like to exchange their properties

20    for.  None of the Croats who went to Croatia wanted to go to villages like

21    those from which they had come, which they were leaving but they insisted

22    that they go to large Croatian towns, like Zagreb, Sibenik, Split,

23    Daruvar, Pakrac, Slavonska Pozega, Rijeka and Opatija in which the real

24    estate was much more valuable from real estate in the places they were

25    leaving from, and I maintain contact to this day with many Croats who had

Page 2801

 1    exchanged their property through my agency and I guarantee that nobody can

 2    find a single one who is dissatisfied or was placed at a disadvantage with

 3    the exchange that took place, which, unfortunately, cannot be said of the

 4    Serbs.

 5            "I personally know of numerous examples of Serbs who even ended up

 6    in hospital when they saw what kind of property was waiting for them in

 7    Serbia."

 8            Now, on the basis of your knowledge and information about the

 9    situation in Srem, is what Mr. Stegic says here true or not?

10       A.   I do believe that there were people who attempted in that overall

11    crisis to reap some benefits for themselves.  Now, the gentleman says

12    here, and I assume that when he says "most people," that might be 90 per

13    cent, I'm asking why he as a Serb took part at all and mediated when the

14    Serbs always fared worse.  How could he do this, morally speaking, if he

15    was a Serb himself?

16       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, I'm asking you questions here.  But since you have

17    commented on this, I'm going to actually derive my next question from your

18    comment.

19            Did the Serbs have a choice if an enormous multitude of Serbs had

20    been expelled from Croatia, several hundred thousand of them, in fact,

21    while, at that time in Serbia according to official statistical figures

22    there lived only a hundred thousand Croats in the whole Serbia.

23            Does that mean that the Serbs actually had no choice but were in a

24    situation to accept whatever was offered.  Is that correct?

25       A.   I'm quite convicted -- convinced that the refugee Serbs coming to

Page 2802

 1    Serbia from Croatia were in a very difficult situation and would be happy

 2    to just have a place to sleep.  I'm quite convinced of that.

 3       Q.   Can you now correct your conclusion to the effect that the

 4    position of Mr. Stegic was not amoral, seeing that the Serbs were in such

 5    a predicament that they had to do something in order to provide a roof

 6    over their heads for their families?

 7       A.   It is not immoral.  It is helpful at any rate.  Now whether he

 8    provided them with a full information, I'm not sure, but I believe that he

 9    did.  Perhaps I made a mistake on commenting on this, but what I can

10    simply say that some Croats also complained that what they received was

11    not in very good condition.  I believe that there was injustice in

12    general.

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  A question for follow up.

14            To your knowledge were there any Serbs from Croatia who came back

15    to Serbia or in Bosnia-Herzegovina and who, in order to get housing,

16    without any help from anyone just settled in apartments of Croats either

17    by force or because they were empty and just settled in?

18            Have you ever known about this kind situation?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew of such situations but not in

20    Serbia.  They were in the territory of Krajina.  The houses were empty and

21    some people moved in.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   I should like to accentuate once again the question posed by the

25    President of the Bench.

Page 2803

 1            So in Serbia you don't know of a single case of Serbs having moved

 2    in by force into the house of a Croat?

 3       A.   There were attempts after the Oluja.

 4       Q.   That is after 1995, right?

 5       A.   Yes.  There were attempts in certain places, including in Gibarci

 6    and Kukujevci but after that very quickly some [indiscernible] special

 7    police unit came.

 8       Q.   And prevented that.  Thank you, Mr. Stoparic.

 9            Now the next paragraph which I'm going to quote for you,

10    Mr. Stegic says:  "It is not true that by 1993 the majority of Croats had

11    left Kukujevci because at that time there was still many of them.  The

12    Croats continually exchanged their property and went to -- had been

13    exchanging their property and going to Croatia ever since 1991 and

14    continued to do so until 1996, but the principal reason for that was of an

15    economic nature and not any kind of persecution.  Had there been

16    persecution, they would not have been able to peacefully go and look at

17    and choose Serbian estates but would have been expelled in -- comparably

18    faster.  There does not exist a single Croat from Srem that has remained

19    without his property or estate.  The house of not a single one has been

20    burned or demolished, whereas there are countless examples of exactly that

21    happening in respect of the Serbs."

22            Is this statement correct to your knowledge?

23       A.   I never heard that any house had been on fire.

24       Q.   Of a Croat.

25       A.   In Serbia, at least not in the general area where I lived and I

Page 2804

 1    personally don't believe that anything of that kind could have happened,

 2    that is, as far as the burning of houses is concerned or the torching of

 3    houses or the destruction in any other way, blowing it up, God forbid, or

 4    similar.  I never heard of that.  The only instance of such a thing was in

 5    the village of Lisicic where the Catholic church was blown up.  Explosives

 6    were planted and it was blown up.  That is the only thing that I know.

 7       Q.   And this was investigated by the police?

 8       A.   I'm convinced that they did investigate.  How it ended, I don't

 9    know.

10       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, do you know of any case of anyone, of any Croat

11    having been seized of the property of any Croat of his farm facilities or

12    houses having been seized and of any Croat remaining without such property

13    in Serbia, seized property, wrested away property?

14       A.   Yes, someone just enters his house and settles there and doesn't

15    want -- won't give it to him any back or any of his economic facilities.

16    Well, I have no concrete example of that if anything of that kind happened

17    and I don't know of anyone having threatened anyone else with a rifle and

18    expelling them from their houses.

19       Q.   Do you agree with my contention that literally not a single Croat

20    in Serbia, especially not in Vojvodina remained without his property,

21    without his real estate, immovable property?

22       A.   As far as I know, sooner or later they managed to either exchange

23    or sell that property.

24       Q.   I see.  Well, I shall quote another portion of this document for

25    you.

Page 2805

 1            Mr. Stegic says:  "It is an absolute lie that I hosted a lunch

 2    after the visit of Dr. Vojislav Seselj to Kukujevci in 1993.  It is easy

 3    to prove that Vojislav Seselj visited Kukujevci.  It was first written the

 4    13th of May here and then corrected into the 15th of May, 1993 at a time

 5    when I not only was not in Kukujevci but was not in Serbia either.  To

 6    prove this I attached this statement a photostatic copy of my military

 7    service booklet which demonstrates that in the period from the 4th of

 8    March 1993 to 18th of August 1993 I was in the army of the republic of the

 9    Serb Krajina in the military garrison 9039, Knin."

10            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I'd like to clarify.  Are we speaking

11    about MFI D7?  Because the copy I have does not have a military booklet

12    attached to it as stated by Mr. Seselj.

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  What are you referring to,

14    Mr. Seselj.

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You saw the military booklet before

16    this.  It has already been tendered as evidence.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is it the military booklet of

18    this witness here in the courtroom or another one -- of the other one?

19    Because we have two military booklets, the one of the witness and there's

20    another military booklet, Mr. Stegic's military booklet.

21            So which one are you talking about?

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're not interested in

23    Mr. Stoparic's military booklet.  We are now talking about this document

24    which I have already shown to Mr. Stoparic and which has been tendered

25    into the file.  That is the Jovica Stegic's military booklet.

Page 2806

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  This is the one.

 2            Please show it to Mrs. Prosecutor.

 3            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour --

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Number D6.

 5            MS. DAHL:  -- the document I was given for D7 is a three-page

 6    document and there's nothing to indicate that the person who signed this

 7    document included this military booklet with it.  They were presented as

 8    separate pieces of paper.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, you're right.  These are

10    two separate documents.

11            So this -- the military booklet is D6.

12            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is not written here that a

13    military booklet is a component part of the statement, but it is attached

14    to this statement, enclosed to it.  That is what the statement says.  But

15    I shall now like to move on to a new set of questions because I want to

16    make the best of the remaining time.

17            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you are a literate person, are you not, I suppose

19    that you have read a book of mine, that you have at least had one in your

20    hands?

21       A.   I have read the paper Velika Srbija and many times the paper

22    contained excerpts from your books and I have seen your books and I have

23    held them in the offices of the Serbian Radical Party, but I never took

24    one home and read it in extenso.

25       Q.   Have you ever seen or held in your hands this book?

Page 2807

 1            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And would you be so kind as to pass

 2    it to Mr. Stoparic.

 3            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, may I have an opportunity to see it.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, is this a book that

 5    you already disclosed to Prosecution or is this a book that Prosecution

 6    has never had in its hands?

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have not disclosed it.  I have

 8    disclosed to the OTP 80 of my books in 2003 but not this one.  Whether the

 9    Prosecutor has had a chance to see it, I don't know.  But I'm going to ask

10    just one question of Mr. Stoparic once he has seen the book.

11            MS. DAHL:  Can I ask Mr. Seselj to please read the title of the

12    book into the record.

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, could you please

14    read the title of this book.

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The title of this book is

16    (redacted)

17            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, have you ever seen that book?

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Just a minute, Mr. Seselj.  I

20    don't know your language, but in French I heard "and the (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Judge, sir.  It does have --

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 2808

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4            So we are talking about a negative trait of character which has

 5    nothing to do with conventional classical prostitution but it is a very

 6    frequent occurrence in public life.  This is the most graphic explanation

 7    of this term.

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12            And ask a question, please.

13            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know, Judge, how the Bench

14    can censor the titles of my books.  This book could have been

15    incriminatory material, you could have put me on trial for this book and

16    without having the title of that book in the transcript this is not

17    possible.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, just a minute.  You

19    come from a country which is a civil law country just like mine, and you

20    know that in civil law there can be prosecution for libel.  A book may

21    very well infringe on somebody's dignity, and so there can always be a

22    civil lawsuit, maybe even a criminal lawsuit.  This is why this Chamber

23    with three Judges cannot let this slide, cannot accept this.  This is a

24    libelous title and it could very well jeopardise somebody's dignity, and

25    this is why the Chamber believes that this word should be redacted.

Page 2809

 1    That's all.

 2            But ask your question, please.

 3            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, I protest on that account,

 4    because of the title of this book and neither the Bench nor the witness

 5    nor the Prosecution can be held accountable or held to account.  Only I

 6    myself can be held to account because of the title of this book if Natasa

 7    Kandic sues me before the competent Serbian Court and the competent court

 8    is the court where these -- of the place in which this book was

 9    published.  The book came out some time ago.  It was promoted in 30

10    days -- cities of Serbia.  It was in fact also disclosed to Natasa Kandic,

11    put under her very nose in a TV show, a TV duo with my advisor Aleksandar

12    Vucic and she has not filed any charges against me and you are now telling

13    me this.  I'm not going to shun any responsibility if I am indeed sued for

14    it by Natasa Kandic.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we are not involved

16    in censorship, but we believe that there is a word that could jeopardise

17    this lady that we don't know and could infringe on her rights even if this

18    book is well known in your country and so forth.

19            This Tribunal cannot be the media by which this word is being

20    propagated, a word that could very well be found libelous in the different

21    courts.  It would be exactly the same if someone came here before us and

22    insulted you similarly.  We would also believe that a redaction is

23    required.  You know, it goes both ways.

24            Now, please come to the substance, please.

25            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I'm going to move on to my next

Page 2810

 1    question.  If you have redacted the title of my book, then I would like to

 2    move on to my next question, Mr. President.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  As you wish.

 4            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, in Serbia, was any kind of case brought against you

 6    for tortuous liability?

 7       A.   What does that mean?

 8       Q.   Well, you could have been punished for a minor infraction and also

 9    there have been a halt in the proceedings.

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   How many such proceedings were brought against you?  Do you

12    remember, misdemeanours and other such offences?

13       A.   Twice.  It was an accident that had something to do with a car, so

14    it was a traffic accident.  And once, I was punished for possessing a

15    weapon.  However, this was probation.

16       Q.   There is no probation for misdemeanours.

17       A.   I'm just telling what it was that I remembered.

18       Q.   Well, I'm going to inform you then if you don't know.

19            My legal advisors looked at the records of the municipal court in

20    Sid, so we're just talking about Sid, they received information on the

21    22nd of January this year, that so far you were 17 times --

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, hold on a minute.

23            You're a legal expert and I'm sure that in your country there must

24    be misdemeanours which can be just lifted or were no longer on criminal

25    records, and in that case you cannot mention convictions where there was

Page 2811

 1    an amnesty or -- so if you're talking about a misdemeanour, an offense

 2    that is in this category in a legal sense, you're not allowed to mention

 3    these, since-- if they have benefitted from amnesty.

 4            I don't know which one you're referring to, but sometimes there

 5    are laws that make it possible to just erase a criminal record if they're

 6    just misdemeanours on this criminal record, and I think you need to know

 7    about this.

 8            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, crimes, after a while, are

 9    also erased from records but not misdemeanours.  Misdemeanours are

10    something that administrative agencies are in charge of, not the

11    judiciary.  A misdemeanours court is not a classical court but it is a

12    court under the jurisdiction of the ministry of the interior, that is to

13    say of an administrative agency, and that is not deleted from records.

14            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation].

15       Q.   So far, Mr. Stoparic, misdemeanour proceedings were brought

16    against you 17 times.  Isn't that right?

17       A.   I don't believe that.

18       Q.   I'm going to show you the document.

19            Most of these misdemeanours have to do with the law on public

20    peace and order, some are related to traffic, some proceedings were

21    initiated at the request of the power company and so on.

22            Would you look at these records and would you tell us what it is

23    that is not true if you think there is something here that is untrue?

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, Ms. Dahl.

25            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, if I may take a moment to look at this

Page 2812

 1    document.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, I have a question.  In

 3    your country can you ask administration to deliver a document that would

 4    list all of the misdemeanours that a person may have committed?

 5            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not every citizen can do that.

 6    However, in accordance with the Law on Cooperation between Yugoslavia, or

 7    rather now Serbia, with The Hague Tribunal, state organs are in principle

 8    duty-bound to make available to my legal advisors all accessible

 9    information, all information that I could use for my Defence.  Inter alia

10    they gave me almost my complete dossier from the secret police, from the

11    state security.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.

13            Ms. Dahl.

14            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, this document doesn't bear any signature

15    or any seal.  It is not what I would recognise as an official court

16    record --

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  [Previous translation

18    continues]... Look at it.

19            Mr. Seselj, this document was faxed; that's obvious.  It has no

20    signature.  It just lists a number of offences that are dated.  But why is

21    there no signature or seal?

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is not an official document

23    that I would admit into evidence.  Quite simply, this is an excerpt from

24    computer records and it contains important information including the case

25    numbers, the cases against Mr. Stoparic.  And if you wish, you can

Page 2813

 1    officially ask the courts to submit the documents for you and then have

 2    that admitted into evidence.  I wanted to show this to Mr. Stoparic.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl.

 4            MS. DAHL:  This appears to be an improper attempt at impeachment.

 5    The witness was asked about a record of misdemeanours, he denied it, and

 6    now he is being presented with a list of information that is not an

 7    official document and doesn't contain information about the nature of the

 8    offence.  All of the dates even seem to be even quite historical, quite

 9    attenuated.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The witness might be in a

11    position to rebut this or confirm it.

12            Just show him the document.

13            Look at it, Mr. Stoparic, look at the document, see what's in it.

14            What do you think of it?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seems that I was a very naughty

16    boy in my municipality when I was a young man.  That's what this document

17    seems to suggest.

18            I don't remember this many fines or penalties.  I never said that

19    I was a saint.  These are just misdemeanours when I was young.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  For instance, which is the

21    first offence?  Can you read it out, the first one.  Just the first one.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was punished for the

23    misdemeanour --

24            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speaker please read slower.

25            Interpreter's note, it is too fast.

Page 2814

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I had a quarrel with someone,

 2    maybe I even had a fight physically with someone.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  This is just misdemeanours.

 4    There is no crime as such.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a misdemeanour that involves

 6    a fine, according to law.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Ms. Dahl.

 8            MS. DAHL:  There was no English interpretation of what the witness

 9    was reading because of the speed.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes.

11            Witness, please read the first part again, what is in it, because

12    the Prosecutor could not hear it in her language.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, I thought that I am a witness

14    in this courtroom, not that I would have to bring you a birth

15    certificate.  Maybe I was a naughty boy even then but I'm going to read

16    it.

17            He was punished for the misdemeanour from paragraph 3, item 3,

18    from the law on misdemeanours and the date is the 25th of July, 1990 and

19    he was fined.

20            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, what is the last misdemeanour under number 17?

22       A.   No, I'm not going to read it at all.  It's my personal matter.

23       Q.   It cannot be personal.  I'm checking your credibility here.  You

24    have to answer.

25       A.   Move into private session.

Page 2815

 1       Q.   I don't want to go into closed session.  I am checking your

 2    credibility before the public.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Witness, I don't know what is

 4    under number 17.  Is it something that you do not want to make public?

 5    Are you asking for private session?  The Trial Chamber will see.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll read it.  I'll read it.  You

 7    don't have to go into closed session.

 8            Shall I?

 9            Proceedings were instituted for a misdemeanour from the field of

10    traffic but the proceedings were halted due to a statute of limitation.

11            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   When was that?

13       A.   Stopped in 1999.

14       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, how many times were criminal charges brought against

15    you?

16       A.   I was punished for possessing a weapon.

17       Q.   How many times were criminal charges brought against you, that's

18    what I'm asking you.

19       A.   That's what I'm telling you.

20       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, there are three judgments, final judgments, due to

21    crimes you committed.  Listen to me carefully.  The first one of the

22    municipal court from Sid dated the 12th of June, 1996 for petty theft,

23    article 73/1 of the criminal law of Serbia, you were fined.

24            Is that true?

25       A.   I don't remember that.

Page 2816

 1       Q.   Oh.  In 1996, you do not remember.

 2            Then the second time the municipal court in Sid, on the 27th of

 3    October, 1997, in accordance with Article 195 of the criminal law of

 4    Serbia, spent 30 days in prison.

 5            Is that correct?

 6       A.   What is Article 195?  What is this?  You have to --

 7       Q.   It's an Article of the law, 195/1.

 8            Is it correct that you were sentenced to 30 days in prison or not?

 9       A.   I was detained once, because I was somewhere and I did not report

10    before the court and it precisely had to do with possession of weapons and

11    it ended with this punishment that I referred to already, but I don't

12    think it was 30 days that was involved.

13       Q.   You were sentenced by a district court in Sremska Mitrovica.  That

14    is K19/95 on the 9th of May, 1997 in accordance with the law on weapons

15    and ammunition.  You were sentenced to six months in prison, one year

16    suspended.  So these are two different laws.  Isn't that right?

17       A.   I don't know.

18       Q.   Oh, you don't know.

19            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, through official channels you

20    can receive a complete report on the criminal charges brought against

21    Mr. Stoparic so far.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, I do not challenge

23    the fact that there have been offences in spite of the fact that the

24    witness says that he doesn't remember some of them.  There are others he

25    admits.

Page 2817

 1            Which is your question?

 2            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As I challenge the credibility of

 3    this witness I just want to make it known to you that criminal charges

 4    were brought against him several times and many times he was tried for

 5    misdemeanours.  I think that's important for the credibility of a witness,

 6    and you can think whatever you like.

 7            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, were you arrested in Beli Manistir as well and were

 9    you held there in prison for 15 days?

10       A.   What you are saying, Seselj, is all one particular deed.  It has

11    to do with this weapon thing that I referred to.

12       Q.   Well, that's what I'm asking you.

13       A.   Before you even mentioned crimes, I said that I was given a

14    suspended sentence for possession of weapons.

15       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, these were large quantities of weapons, right?

16       A.   These were large quantities of weapons.

17       Q.   Well, that's what I wanted you to confirm.  It is because of large

18    quantities of weapons the criminal charges were brought against you.  I

19    have a list of these weapons here.  If necessary, I can present it.  If

20    not, let's move on.

21       A.   It is not necessary.  It's an adequate punishment.

22       Q.   Well, it's not that the punishment was very severe at that time

23    but they did take away these weapons, right, and it was an entire

24    arsenal.  I have all the list of all these weapons here.  Do you want to

25    have a look or are you not interested?

Page 2818

 1       A.   I memorized it.  I remember it.

 2       Q.   Oh, I see --

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Move on to something else,

 4    Mr. Seselj.  The witness does not challenge the fact that he had weapons

 5    in his possession.

 6            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would like to know this of the

 7    witness.

 8            What is the year in which this happened?

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, those weapons.  In which

10    year did you have them, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997?  To your recollection,

11    which year was it?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is this court and this Trial

13    Chamber that looked into this problem of weapons.  I mean, you're not

14    asking me now to explain to you how come all these weapons happened to be

15    on me and where all these weapons came from.  Now, what year this was --

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  We're interested in the year.

17    The year is the thing.  Is it straight after the war or a long time after

18    the war?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In some territories the war was

20    still on.  I don't know exactly.

21            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22       Q.   From 1994 onwards.  Let me help you.

23            First of all it was in 1994 when you tried to bring in one -- two

24    automatic rifles, one --

25            THE INTERPRETER:  The speaker will have to read slower.  The

Page 2819

 1    interpreter cannot keep up.

 2            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I'm not getting any interpretation.

 3    Mr. Seselj needs to perhaps read much, much slower.

 4            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will repeat it slower.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Indeed.

 6            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   For example, the first criminal report was filed in 1994, on the

 8    15th of March.  You were brought into custody and handed over to the judge

 9    of the municipal court in Sid because you entered the territory of the

10    Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at -- in Sid in a 1300 Lada that did not

11    have registration plates that was owned by a person from Oriolik --

12            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not catch the name.

13            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   And the following weapons were found on you:  Two automatic rifles

15    one hunting carbine, one military carbine with a sniper, one Magnum

16    revolver, one pistol of the Srbinje [phoen] Zastava make, one

17    hand-grenade.  Roughly all the other crimes relate to that too.  I really

18    don't have to read all of this out, do I.  Mostly it was weapons, all of

19    it?

20       A.   I've already said that I was given a suspended sentence for

21    possession of weapons.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  All right, sir.  For your

23    information, Mr. Seselj, you have 20 minutes left.

24            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm bringing it to an end, Judge.  I

25    am hurrying as much as I can, but I'm speaking slower because of the

Page 2820

 1    interpreters.  Maybe you've noticed.  One more thing.

 2            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   I'm making it known to you that I received a document from this

 4    Office of the Prosecutor that shows that the state security service also

 5    kept you under surveillance because you brought large quantities of

 6    weapons from the front line and stored them in your own apartment.  The

 7    number given to it by the OTP is 06076918 and the date is the 28th of

 8    September, 1993.  That was an indicator to me to continue this search.

 9    Had the Prosecutor not given me this, I wouldn't have been looking, but

10    that's the kind of man I am.  What can I say?

11            THE INTERPRETER:  Now the speakers are overlapping.

12            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   I'm not angry at you.  You're a very pleasant witness as far as

14    I'm concerned?

15       A.   You must understand that at that time many people had weapons.

16       Q.   All right.  Let's move on.

17            You explained to us here that when Miro Vujevic were arrested, and

18    Stanko Vujanovic, that Kameni came, Kinez and Ceca had a meeting in your

19    presence in order to dovetail their statements expecting to be detained

20    themselves.  Is that the truth?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   That was after Miroljub Vujanovic and -- or rather, Milo Vujevic

23    and Stanko Vujanovic were arrested?

24       A.   One of them had certainly been arrested.

25       Q.   All right, fine.  Now I have a sorry piece of news for you.  I

Page 2821

 1    received a letter -- a glad piece of news for you from Ceca which I

 2    received from the prison.  Would you like to read the letter?  It was

 3    faxed to me through the mediation of my legal advisors.  Would you read it

 4    out loud, please?

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, could you inform

 6    the Trial Chamber who is the detainee who sent you a letter?

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is Ceca, no, I don't know his

 8    first and last name but anyway, Mr. Stoparic spoke about him at length.

 9    He was one of the combatants and officers in Leva Supoderica, the Leva

10    Supoderica Detachment, in fact, and he was arrested together with Kameni

11    and Kinez because -- on suspicion that they had taken part in Ovcara.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Well, we're going to give the

13    document --

14            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, this is a handwritten letter.  There's no

15    indication that it is under oath and it again is referring to criticisms

16    of the testimony by somebody outside the court.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  We're going to show it to him.

18            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll provide some information.

19            MS. DAHL:  Can we please have it marked for identification,

20    please.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes.  It will be marked for

22    identification.

23            THE REGISTRAR:  It will be MFI D8.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, Mr. Seselj.

25            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 2822

 1       Q.   Would you read it out loud, please, the letter so that we can hear

 2    it.

 3            MS. DAHL:  I'm sorry.  It's improper impeachment.  If there is

 4    some information or question that Mr. Seselj would like to put the

 5    witness, he can ask a question.  But it is not appropriate to have letters

 6    faxed into the courtroom from some third party and then republished as a

 7    means of cross-examination.  If there is a fact that Mr. Seselj wants to

 8    controvert, he should ask the question.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Ms. Dahl, the Vukovar case was,

10    in part, tried here.  In our indictment, we also have to settle this

11    matter, and we know that there was a trial in Serbia on these same facts.

12            So there's quite a blend, a mix, and we do not have all the

13    facts.  It appears that one of the participants who is detained has sent a

14    letter to Mr. Seselj - I don't know what for, for what purpose - but I see

15    that from what the accused said, the sender of this letter was part of the

16    unit in which Mr. Stoparic had a position.

17            The witness knows this person, the one who seems to have written

18    this letter.  I don't know personally what is in the letter.

19            So, Witness, you have read the letter.  Is there any problem

20    reading it, or don't you want to read it?

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll read it out.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first part is illegible.  The

24    letters are too small.  If Mr. Seselj agrees I can begin with the

25    following words: I don't know.

Page 2823

 1            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, have a go and try and read it all out.  Do you want

 3    me to lend you my glasses?  Do have a go.

 4            MS. DAHL:  [Previous translation continues]... Suggest that we put

 5    it on the ELMO because then the interpreters can see it, and if they can

 6    read it, perhaps they can assist -- can interpret what Mr. Stoparic is

 7    reading.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  It is going to be

 9    put on the ELMO.  There it is.  Please read out, Mr. Stoparic, whatever

10    you can read.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stoparic, on the 15th of January --

12            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I found it, I found where we're

13    showing it.

14            Continue, please.  Apologise.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Stoparic on the 15th of January,

16    2008 at an interview in The Hague said roughly the following:  That he and

17    Kameni, because they heard that Miroljub and Stanko had been arrested,

18    came to Sremska Mitrovica to see me and then we all went to Ruma to Kinez

19    in order to reach an agreement.  As the lawyer told us to go back home and

20    forget everything, forget about it.  I don't know if you can let Vojo

21    know.  I think that means you.  I consider it important that you know the

22    following:  I was arrested on the 21st of January, 2003, that is to say in

23    January, and Stanko and Miroljub, in Sabljak in March or April of 2003.

24    This is proof and evidence that Stoparic is lying because Kameni -- he

25    could not have come with Kameni to see me because at the time I was in

Page 2824

 1    detention at the moment when Stanko and Miroljub were arrested.

 2    Greetings, Ceca."

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  What is your question,

 4    Mr. Seselj?

 5            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you didn't know that Ceca had been arrested before

 7    Miroljub Vujevic and Stanko Vujanovic, right?

 8       A.   I was sitting in a catering establishment with Ceca and talking

 9    about the possible arrest and taking into custody with respect to Ovcara

10    and the beginning of the trial in Serbia.

11            Now what Ceca wrote here, the date of his arrest and when one of

12    the others whether, Miroljub or Stanko were arrested, I don't know whether

13    they were arrested there.  I except Vojvoda Kameni to send a letter and he

14    is much more honest.

15       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, I came here on the 24th of February, 2003.  And

16    already at that time, as far as I remember, they hadn't been arrested,

17    either Stanko Vujanovic or Miroljub Vujevic.  It was after Zoran

18    Djindjic's killing in the operation there, but obviously you don't

19    remember that.

20            All right, Mr. Stoparic.  And they slipped that in for you to sign

21    too and now you have nowhere to go.

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How much more time do I have, Judge?

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  I think you still have ten

24    minutes, but we're going to be told this by the court deputy.

25            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll end on time.

Page 2825

 1            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you stated here that in a western country -- you

 3    live in a western country now and that you earn your living through your

 4    firm.  You said that you established a firm and that that provides a

 5    livelihood for you.  However, when you left Serbia you had no money at

 6    all.  Isn't that right?

 7       A.   What money do you mean?

 8       Q.   Well, I mean more than 1.000 or 2.000 Euros, for example.  You had

 9    no employment, you were wounded, you were undergoing rehabilitation, you

10    couldn't earn any serious money, could you?

11       A.   Well, I lived like many others in Serbia.

12       Q.   I agree.  I asked your family, too, your brothers live in a very

13    modest way, your father was an honest and decent man, he was never very

14    rich.  Isn't that right?

15       A.   80 per cent in my town lived that way.

16       Q.   Your younger brother is quite ill and he finds it difficult to

17    meet ends meet and your older brother couldn't help you too much.  He

18    could offer you hospitality, you had your meals with him, gave you some

19    money to buy something, but he couldn't actually provide for your

20    livelihood.  He didn't have enough money to cater to all your needs.  Am I

21    right?

22       A.   Well, you know, sir, that we're from Srem and that we all have our

23    pigs and so on.

24       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you can't live from just one pig.

25       A.   Well, you said you had investigated my family, and if you had done

Page 2826

 1    that you would have seen that he has at least 40 pigs now.

 2       Q.   How much -- how many did he have when you left and emigrated?

 3       A.   Maybe more than 40 pigs.

 4       Q.   And how much revenue can 40 pigs provided?

 5       A.   Well, his wife works and his younger brother works.

 6       Q.   But there is not too much money to throw around?

 7       A.   Well, in Serbia nobody has that much money that they can throw it

 8    around.

 9       Q.   All right.  Anyway, you came here.  You lived on 900 Euros in some

10    western country.  You came you to the Tribunal first and they sent you on

11    further.  They gave you shelter somewhere.  I'm not going to mention the

12    country.  And you had 900 Euros a month, that's what you said yourself.

13    And then you opened your own company.  Where did you get the money, the

14    initial capital to open a company of your own?

15       A.   Well, Mr. Seselj, I married in the meantime.  My wife does not

16    come from the former Yugoslavia.  She is employed.  She works too.  I made

17    some money and managed to save some money too, and there's a building

18    where it says "bank."  And then you set out your problem in that

19    building.  You ask them how much money they can give you and they give you

20    loans to set up your firm and they place you on stand-by for tax purposes

21    for half a year and for the repayment of your loan.

22       Q.   I understand that, but banks usually ask for somebody's

23    guarantee.  Who guaranteed for you, who was the guarantor?

24       A.   Well, I had my -- a guarantee from my wife.

25       Q.   Did she have any real estate, any property to back up this

Page 2827

 1    guarantee.

 2       A.   Yes, two.

 3       Q.   On the basis of that, you were given a loan and you managed to

 4    open up your -- set up your firm.  I'm just asking.  I don't want to upset

 5    you.

 6            MS. DAHL:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  It appears to be ranging too

 7    far afield into the witness's private affairs.  It does not seem to have

 8    any bearing on the witness's credibility.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  That's not the point.  You know

10    as well as I do, Ms. Dahl, that in many writings the accused said that

11    some witnesses may have received money from the Prosecution.  This is what

12    he is trying to establish or check.  There it is.

13            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, rather than fishing into Mr. Stoparic's

14    private financial affairs, he can ask the witness directly if he received

15    funds from the Prosecution instead of going into his banking relationship

16    and his wife's finances.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, it would be quicker if you

18    went straight to the crux of the matter.

19            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, when did you buy a car?

21       A.   Eight months ago.

22       Q.   And what car did you buy?

23       A.   A Chrysler Voyager.

24       Q.   How much did it cost?

25            THE INTERPRETER:  We didn't hear the answer.

Page 2828

 1            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   What's the cost of that car?

 3       A.   I pay a repayment of 150 Euros a month.

 4       Q.   Which car did you have before that?

 5       A.   I didn't have a car, but before that I had to get a driver's

 6    licence, learn the language and you need a driving licence in every

 7    country.

 8       Q.   And which car did you have before you emigrated?

 9       A.   For a time I went out with a girl, or, rather I helped her in the

10    work of her cafe and I used her car but I didn't have my own.

11       Q.   You didn't purchase a car before that?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Among other things, you said that as a volunteer of the Serbian

14    Radical Party, you went to war in the area of Livno, in 1992, the first

15    half of 1992, right?

16       A.   I think it was the spring.

17       Q.   What month roughly would you say?

18       A.   It was still quite cold.

19       Q.   Was it February, March?

20       A.   I can't say exactly.

21       Q.   Anyway, you went to Bosansko Grahovo and the front towards Livno,

22    right?

23       A.   We came from Bihac airport and then from Bihac we were transported

24    to Knin and from Knin to Bosansko Grahovo Strmica and then --

25       Q.   I'm now going to tell you what my information about that is and

Page 2829

 1    then I'll ask for your comments.

 2            I never heard that volunteers of Serbian Radical Party went to war

 3    around Bosansko Grahovo and the front towards Livno, so I checked this

 4    out.  In the archives of the party there is no information about that.  I

 5    asked the chief of the war staff, Ljubisa Petkovic, and his deputies Zolo

 6    and Drazilovic and they confirmed that the Serbian Radical Party never had

 7    its volunteers in that particular area.  So who's right here, all of us or

 8    you?

 9       A.   All your sources are your own.  They're your own sources.  I could

10    not - and you know this.  This was immediately after the fall of Kupres.

11    A normal corridor had not been established yet.

12       Q.   When did Kupres fall, Mr. Stoparic?

13       A.   It was before the fall of Kupres.

14       Q.   And when did Kupres fall?

15       A.   I don't know.

16       Q.   1994, 1995?

17       A.   I don't know.

18       Q.   When did Kupres fall?

19       A.   It was the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army and a colonel

20    made his name there.

21       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you said here that Ratko Mladic came to visit the

22    troops, right, and that General Ratko Mladic proposed that you do not

23    leave any prisoners.  What did he say?

24       A.   He didn't say that.  He said I'm not interested in pets but in

25    Livno, take care of the civilians.

Page 2830

 1       Q.   Does that mean that you could kill everybody, including pets and

 2    if you enter Livno, you should take care of the civilians?  Have I

 3    interpreted that correctly?

 4            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly slow down.  Thank you.

 5            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, General Ratko Mladic became the commander of the

 7    Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska only on the 12th of May, 1992.

 8    Do you know about that?

 9       A.   I don't know the exact date.  I don't know the exact date when he

10    became the commander of the army of Republika Srpska.

11       Q.   Well, I do.

12       A.   Well, that is excellent.  But before he became commander of

13    Republika Srpska army, he probably had the rank of general or colonel.  He

14    was still Ratko Mladic.

15       Q.   But how come he was in that area?

16       A.   Well, you know -- I'm sure you know that before he became

17    commander of the army of Republika Srpska that he was the commander in

18    Knin.

19       Q.   He was the deputy to General Vukovic in the Knin Corps.  Isn't

20    that right?

21       A.   I don't know the post he held but in the Knin Corps.

22       Q.   So how come he was at the front towards Livno?

23       A.   Well, you either don't want to know or perhaps you don't really

24    know where Bosansko Grahovo is situated and where the sector below Mount

25    Dinavar is.

Page 2831

 1       Q.   I know that full well.  I was there myself but in later years.

 2       A.   It's very close to the border with the Knin-Krajina area.

 3       Q.   What you mean to say is that the Knin Corps had control of that

 4    area, is that it?  It does border on Knin-Krajina but the Knin Corps did

 5    not hold the lines facing Livno between Bosansko Grahovo and Livno?

 6    Never.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, for your

 8    information, you have five more minutes.

 9            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   There existed two Krajina corps, the 1st Krajina Corps and the 2nd

12    Krajina Corps.  Are you clear on that?  They were made from the Banja Luka

13    and the Bihac Corps within the former Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Are you

14    clear on that?  When the Republika Srpska was proclaimed, they were

15    renamed the 1st and the 2nd Krajina Corps.  Do you know that at all?

16       A.   There existed the 1st Krajina Corps and probably there existed the

17    2nd Krajina Corps.

18       Q.   They definitely did, I can guarantee that to you as a Chetnik

19    duke.

20       A.   I have no doubt that they did.

21       Q.   How come the Knin Corps was between Bosansko Grahovo and Livno?

22    Whenever I went to Knin I went via Bosansko Grahovo.  I know the route but

23    I know that the Knin Corps was never there.

24       A.   Are you saying that there was no concerted action between these

25    two armies?

Page 2832

 1       Q.   There was concerted action but General Ratko Mladic could not have

 2    shown up there.

 3       A.   That is what you say, what you claim.

 4       Q.   I claim that it is so and I claim another thing and I will wait

 5    for -- to hear your position on that.  And that is that I claim that the

 6    OTP is preparing you primarily as a false witness in a possible trial of

 7    Ratko Mladic if they happened by some unfortunate circumstance to lay

 8    their hands on him.

 9       A.   That is what you say.

10       Q.   But I also contend that they were preparing you for a false

11    witness in Slobodan Milosevic's trial in the additional Prosecution case

12    after the Defence case had terminated.  Is that so?

13       A.   You don't have to claim that.  That was so, but the late Judge May

14    refused me.

15       Q.   And I'm also claiming that the OTP is preparing you as a false

16    witness in the cases against Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.  Is

17    that true?

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Sir, were you to testify in

19    Slobodan Milosevic's trial?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I know, I was

21    scheduled.  I was supposed to feature in some additional part of the case,

22    as Mr. Seselj said, but I don't know what happened.

23            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Because Mr. Milosevic died before the completion of the Defence

25    case, and you would have actually taken the stand had he not died?

Page 2833

 1       A.   Possibly.

 2       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you gave a statement to the OTP of the Tribunal also

 3    because you met the legal advisors of Slobodan Milosevic in a cafe when --

 4    at the time when you were being prepared to take the stand?

 5       A.   Well, it was not a statement.  I just informed them of things.

 6       Q.   But I got the statement.  I have received the statement.  It is a

 7    statement.  You informed them and they took a statement from you

 8    immediately thereafter, did they not, and you described it, they saw you,

 9    they looked at you in the cafe and you immediately got frightened that

10    there was some danger actually threatening you coming from them.  Did you

11    not?

12            MS. DAHL:  [Previous translation continues] ... Can we ask

13    Mr. Seselj --

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, Ms. Dahl.

15            MS. DAHL:  [Previous translation continues] ... Document and if it

16    is a statement that he's examining the witness on that the witness be

17    given a copy.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  What is the document you have,

19    Mr. Seselj?

20            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm looking for it right now, Judge.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  We will have to -- you will

22    have to finish soon because you have no more time.  But you can put this

23    question once you find the document.

24            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would end with this.  This is

25    document which is not marked and the date of the talk is the 26th of

Page 2834

 1    February, 2004.

 2            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   Interview conducted by Paolo Pastore Stocchi, if I read it

 4    correctly, and General Saxton.  See if I pronounced the name correctly.

 5    Statement has some five pages.  You were escorted by policemen from

 6    Belgrade on -- on the plane.  In front of you these policemen said

 7    good-bye to Milosevic's legal advisors and then in an Italian restaurant,

 8    the La Bruschetta Italian restaurant in The Hague in the van der

 9    Goesstraat street 9 and near the hotel where you are staying.  That is the

10    hotel where all the witnesses stay who are being prepared to testify, and

11    indeed my own advisors also stay there.

12            So you entered this place and you saw some of Milosevic's advisors

13    there and that scared you so much that you had to immediately give a

14    statement to the OTP.  There was this junior lawyer who noticed me.  He

15    stared at me and he certainly must have recognised me.  He took out his

16    phone, and he actually talked to somebody and according -- that is in

17    paragraph 13.  He looked at me and Tapuskovic stared at me, and I was

18    under the impression that they were talking about me.  I immediately paid

19    my bill and went to sleep.  That's your statement.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, Ms. Dahl.

21            MS. DAHL:  For the record, Your Honour, the statement is available

22    in available in e-court under Document Number 65 ter 07036.  So the

23    witness can have an opportunity to review what he is apparently being

24    examined on.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.

Page 2835

 1            Mr. Seselj, put the question to the witness since he remembers the

 2    statement, he must have signed it.  So put the question to the witness

 3    regarding that document, and you will then end your cross-examination.

 4            MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   Did this scare you, Mr. Stoparic, when you saw Milosevic's legal

 6    advisors and assumed that they were talking about you?

 7       A.   Now it would not frighten me.  At that time I had this feeling, it

 8    was not actually fear, but I was apprehensive.

 9       Q.   So that particular year you associated that with the

10    procrastination of the issuance of your passport in Serbia and the threats

11    being levelled at your family at the time, and that is why you did not

12    feel secure; and you actually were -- loathed to go back to Serbia.  Is

13    that what you stated?

14       A.   Well, Mr. Seselj, I was brought to The Hague escorted by the

15    police as a protected person of the MUP of Serbia.

16       Q.   I should like to say one thing, Mr. Stoparic.  In Serbia you were

17    never seriously endangered, but you just made people believe that you were

18    endangered by statements of this kind in similar statements in order to

19    actually elicit from the OTP of the Tribunal as a valuable witness of

20    theirs to be placed in a western country, to be financially provided for,

21    and to get the working permit, a residence permits, something that

22    thousands, hundreds of thousands of people hailing our poor parts would

23    actually covered.  Is that right or not?

24       A.   What do you except to me to say that it is right, or that it is

25    not right.

Page 2836

 1       Q.   I expect to you say that it is right, but I'm not sure that you

 2    will actually fulfil my exceptions right?

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the witness's

 4    answer.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, your time is up.

 6            Very well, Ms. Dahl do you have any re-direct questions in

 7    re-direct.

 8            MS. DAHL:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  I would like to remind you that

10    questions in re-direct are always linked or they stem from the questions

11    that were put during the cross-examination; so it is better to say during

12    the cross-examination Mr. Seselj asked you this question you answered in

13    this way and I would like to clarify this and this.

14            Very well.  Please go ahead.

15            MS. DAHL:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                          Re-examination by Ms. Dahl:

17       Q.   Yesterday, Mr. Stoparic, Mr. Seselj asked about your attendance at

18    campaign rallies and your exposure to his ideas before you volunteered to

19    go to the front lines.

20            Before you volunteers in 1991, how did you learn of Mr. Seselj's

21    political ideas?

22       A.   Well, they were publicly accessible to all.

23       Q.   Did you hear him giving television interviews?

24       A.   Yes, I did.

25       Q.   How about on the radio?

Page 2837

 1       A.   I listened to him on the radio also, but later when he was on a

 2    local radio in my city, and I don't exactly remember whether I had also

 3    heard him on Belgrade radio.

 4       Q.   Did you read any news reports about his ideas?

 5       A.   Well, the programme was not in the usually ordinary daily papers

 6    but Seselj's statements were often quoted as were those of other

 7    politicians.

 8       Q.   You mentioned today in cross-examination about a publication

 9    called Velika Srbija.  Can you tell me what that is?

10       A.   This is a magazine, the magazine, issued by the Serbian Radical

11    Party.

12       Q.   Could you encapsulate for me the political ideas that Mr. Seselj

13    was advocating concerning Serbs and Serbia during the war?

14       A.   The political ideas advocated by Mr. Seselj and his party are

15    known to all.  One need not be a participant in the war to say something

16    or know to something at least partially about it.  Greater Serbia that was

17    the objective and of course the political struggle in order to assume

18    power, that was the objective.  That is what a political after all is for.

19    But within the greater framework of Greater Serbia, there are many other

20    things that can be talked about.  I'm just saying this in global terms.

21       Q.   Did Mr. Seselj's political ideas about Greater Serbia have some

22    influence in your decision to volunteer?

23       A.   Well, it did actually awake some patriotism in me.  Of course, I

24    wanted Serbia to be big, to be rich, to be respected and the bigger

25    country it is status, the more respected it is; that is quite clear.

Page 2838

 1            At that time, I did see a logical foundation to it.  There were

 2    indeed so many Serbs and many Serbs living in all those areas that he

 3    mentioned.  That is a historical fact.  I cannot say that I personally did

 4    not want a Greater Serbia.

 5       Q.   You mentioned yesterday during the war in Herzegovina you saw

 6    groups of people in the street calling themselves Seselj's Men.

 7       A.   We don't have to just confine ourselves to Herzegovina.

 8    Everywhere in Serbia or elsewhere, you could see people for instance in

 9    the street singing a song extolling Seselj or --

10            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the witness.

11       A.   Many people, members of the army of the Republika Srpska also did

12    the same.

13            MS. DAHL:

14       Q.   From what you say of their songs or expressions, did they seem to

15    be in agreement with the idea of achieving a Greater Serbia?

16            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note could the witness please take

17    his hand off his mouth and speak in the microphone, please.

18       A.   They were already at war and of course they concurred in the idea

19    that his house, their house should remain part of Serbia or Yugoslavia.  I

20    don't see why they should agree to the idea of a Greater Serbia or, if

21    nothing else for it to be called Yugoslavia and for Croatia and these

22    others to secede but only within the ethnic Croats or ethnic Muslims

23    boundaries.  Every Serb in other words wanted his city, his village to be

24    either in Serbia or in Yugoslavia.

25       Q.   And yesterday you discussed with Mr. Seselj the areas in which you

Page 2839

 1    served in military combat during the war in Croatia and the war in Bosnia

 2    and Herzegovina.

 3            Your objective in this military service was to take strategic

 4    control of -- of locations.  Is that correct?

 5       A.   Not strategic control, absolute control.  When we take a terrain

 6    and inhabit a place we put in an attack in order to gain absolute control

 7    of it; or perhaps if it was a Serbian village that needed liberating that

 8    that was the objective.

 9       Q.   Now, in the areas that were outside of Serbia, were the locations

10    strategically related to unifying places of Serb populations?

11       A.   I am not quite sure I understand strategic places.  There were

12    strategic objectives for instance at one of time was the penetration of

13    the corridor, because without the corridor the Serbs in the Knin Krajina

14    would have no prospects at all.  They would be actually at the mercy of

15    the Croatian MUP and would soon have been extinguished; so we did have

16    strategic objectives in our struggle, although I'm not a member of the

17    Main Staff to be aware of each individual and every single strategic

18    objective; but it was quite logical that they were in existence.  It was

19    the strategic objective we had one Serbian enclave and another and no

20    continental link between them to ensure that link.  That was a strategic

21    objective, which was only logical.

22       Q.   Let me see if I understand your testimony correctly.

23            When you would take control of a location, that would include

24    expelling or cleansing the area of the enemy?

25       A.   If we as Serbian soldiers took a village, it went without saying

Page 2840

 1    that we would meet with the resistance of the enemy forces.  If we were

 2    gaining the upper hand, they would flee, so that was the cleansing that

 3    was certainly be supposed to take place of every enemy soldier that is.

 4       Q.   And yesterday in your examination by Mr. Seselj you discussed the

 5    need to evacuate the civilians from these locations that you were taking

 6    control of.

 7       A.   You must ask me more specifically.  I do remember being

 8    cross-examined by Mr. Seselj about it, and I also believe that the

 9    Presiding Judge asked me a few questions.  Evacuation is a normal thing we

10    also attack -- evacuate our own civilians.  It is not logical to leave

11    them within the range of artillery or shelling or rifle bullets of the

12    other side of the enemy side, and the other side did the same.  The enemy

13    side did the same.

14       Q.   I think that this came in the context of the Presiding Judge's

15    questions about artillery fire and moving civilians out of the villages

16    that were being taken over.

17       A.   Yes, but it was not us that were removing the civilian population.

18    It was their army that was actually withdrawing the civilians from the

19    area concerned.

20       Q.   That was in response to being shelled with artillery fire.

21       A.   No.  This is simply a precautionary measures.  Artillery weapons

22    is not always precise.  They can overshoot their targets.  So the

23    commander of a village, whether it is a Croatian village controlled by the

24    Croatian army or a Muslim one controlled by the Muslim army or a joint

25    one, they cannot take this risk.  If they know that, we would be putting

Page 2841

 1    in an attack.  Even if they are not aware of that being planned if in the

 2    morning they hear the roar of the shelling, they take the precautionary

 3    measure of evacuating their own civilians.

 4       Q.   Now today Mr. Seselj asked you about the presence of Radical Party

 5    volunteers in Livno.  Is it your understanding that Mr. Drazilovic was in

 6    Livno with volunteers in -- I'm sorry, that Mr. Novacic was in Livno in

 7    April 1992 with Radical Party volunteers?

 8       A.   When you say Novacic I -- that rings the bell -- that actually

 9    reminds me of the name of a colonel.  Is that whom you mean?

10       Q.   Let me give you his full name, Radovan Novacic?

11       A.   Actually, at this point I don't remember anything.  Have you not

12    actually jogged my memory.  I'm not quite sure what it is that you're

13    asking me.

14       Q.   Do you know whether Mr. Radovan Novacic commanded the volunteers

15    in Livno in April 1992?

16       A.   No person by that name was my commander.

17       Q.   No, the commander of the volunteers in Livno.

18       A.   Well, no.  It is not possible in Livno, because the Serb troops

19    never marched into Livno.  Perhaps some part of the Livno valley, or some

20    villages there.  I cannot say.  I don't know that he commanded someone

21    there.  He was not my commander.

22       Q.   Now, Mr. Seselj asked you today whether you had received bribes

23    from the Office of the Prosecutor.  Can you confirm or deny that?

24       A.   Well, I expected such a question from Mr. Seselj, but not from

25    you.  What bribe are you talking about?

Page 2842

 1            The fact that I received a certain sum from the Victims and

 2    Witness Protection Unit was so that I could actually -- to tide me over

 3    until I found some employment or another source of livelihood, but this is

 4    not for that -- for that purpose.

 5       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, I'm sorry, when Mr. Seselj asked you the question,

 6    he moved to another topic before you answered; and I want to make sure the

 7    record was clear whether he had ever been offered or received any improper

 8    payments in connection with your appearances before this Tribunal or your

 9    providing factual information arising out of your knowledge of events

10    under investigation by the Office of the Prosecutor.

11       A.   I never asked for any pecuniary remuneration for anything nor did

12    anyone offer my anything of the kind.  Quite simply the answer is, no and

13    of course you are perfectly aware of this yourself.  You're asking me to

14    speak about things that everybody knows are untrue.

15            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, at this point, I would conclude our

16    examination, and I would move into admission of evidence all of the

17    exhibits that we had marked for identification with Mr. Stoparic's

18    testimony.

19                          [Trial Chamber confers]

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  If you have finished the judges

21    would like to ask a few questions.  My colleague would like to put a

22    question for the witness.

23                          Questioned by the Court:

24            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25            Sir, you told us that the civilian populations of the villages

Page 2843

 1    where you were operating were not expelled by your units.  But you also

 2    mentioned mixed villages where there was a Serbian population mixed with a

 3    non-Serb population.

 4            This is what I would like to know.  Regarding the Serb population,

 5    were they also evacuated, were they fleeing, or was it only the non-Serb

 6    civilian population that was concerned?

 7       A.   Usually when or if, rather, we took a village or a hamlet or any

 8    inhabited place it was not just my unit that participated, and it doesn't

 9    matter whether at that point I am a volunteer or a member of the army of

10    Republika Srpska.

11            So this was a coordinated action of a number of units, and we

12    entered the village, in which village there remained both the Serbian

13    civilians, Serbian inhabitants, and a part of Croatian population that did

14    not leave with their own withdrawing troops and army.

15            Immediately after that, our command established defence lines in

16    order to prevent the enemy from seeking overnight to return to their

17    positions, and the very next day we seek to establish civilian authorities

18    not to have military rule and the troops then are sent forward or on.  The

19    moment the civilian authorities are established there is also set up the

20    Red Cross and other agencies and the civilians are no longer our problem.

21            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But the non-Serb civil

22    population, were they fleeing?

23       A.   Usually, usually they would withdraw when their army would

24    withdraw.

25            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes.  But they were withdrawing

Page 2844

 1    because they were frightened by your units, or is it because your enemy

 2    managed to convince those people to leave, to flee?

 3       A.   Before we would take a town or village, now we're talking about

 4    someplace that we don't really know, they lived in a situation where their

 5    police and army was in control.  Now, while we take the village, within

 6    two hours or so they're supposed to agree it our control.  Everyone had

 7    their own reasons.  They were afraid.  I would never agree if the Croatian

 8    army would attack the village where I live, and my army would be

 9    withdrawing because they overpowered by the enemy, because my army was

10    defeated by the enemy, I will withdraw together with my army.  As a

11    civilian I would not remain there at the mercy of the enemy army because I

12    never know what they might do.

13            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for this

14    answer.

15            One more thing on another topic.  Did you personally feel that

16    there was a -- an ethnic difference between you, the Croats and Bosnian

17    Muslims, or did you have such a perception that you only perceived a

18    difference in religion between you and them?

19       A.   Well, I know that we have different religions.  I know that we

20    were warring parties, and in me there was each a dose of hatred against

21    these people, just like they hated me.  I'm talking about that period,

22    that is.

23            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, you say that hatred was

24    present.  Was it hatred towards people belonging to another ethnic group

25    or people having a different religion; or was it because there were people

Page 2845

 1    who had a different ideology?

 2       A.   Everything that you mentioned within a single framework.

 3            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  I hope that we are not exploiting the

 5    interpreters.  I have just one question to you and that is to explain to

 6    us the purpose for which volunteer militia groups were established rather

 7    than just incorporating everybody into the JNA.   Were there different

 8    functions undertaken by the different volunteers groups, or why was there

 9    an army and then next to the army, a number of militias.

10       A.   You're calling the volunteers militias, or do you consider them be

11    some paramilitary units or something?  I'm never inclined to talk about

12    paramilitary units because I think that was a very rare occurrence in our

13    parts.  I think that every unit has some kind of control.

14            JUDGE HARHOFF:  I apologise for being imprecise.  I'm referring to

15    all units operating outside the army.

16       A.   Well, they could not operate outside the army, not at the time of

17    the JNA, which, later on, no longer participated in those areas.  In the

18    area of Republika Srpska-Krajina and in the area of Republika Srpska their

19    national armies were established.  That is to say that every volunteer

20    unit there would fall under their control or the control of the police or

21    their Territorial Defence.

22            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Were there any difference in the functions they

23    undertook compared to the functions undertook by the JNA?

24       A.   All commands and all the technical equipment is what was received

25    from the JNA.  It's the JNA that was the creator and the command.  I can

Page 2846

 1    be a member of a volunteer unit, but I cannot do anything of my own

 2    accord, on my on bat.  I can, as an individual, until someone catches me,

 3    sees me, and then I'm disciplined.  Because also it is very difficult to

 4    attack a village if you do not have support from the JNA.  Everything has

 5    to be coordinated.

 6            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Witness, your testimony is now

 8    completed.  I wish you a safe journey back home.

 9            Before we adjourn, I remind everybody that we will start on

10    Tuesday at 8.30 next week, and according to the Prosecution schedule, we

11    shall have Mr. Tomic, your expert witness.

12            Is that so, Ms. Dahl?

13            MS. DAHL:  Yes, Your Honour.  And if I may reiterate my request to

14    admit the documents marked for identification.  I believe the number range

15    is P22 through P30.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  We shall rule on

17    that.

18            So, sorry to the interpreters.  It's already ten past 7.00 but we

19    had to finish.  We couldn't do it any other way.

20            I wish you all a very good evening.  We shall reconvene on

21    Tuesday.  Thank you.

22                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.,

23                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day of

24                          January, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.