1 Wednesday, 12 March 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.35 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we call the
7 case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-03-67-T, the
10 Prosecutor verse Vojislav Seselj.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 On this Wednesday, the 12th of March, 2008, I bid good morning to
13 members of the Prosecution, the witness, Mr. Seselj, and all the people
14 assisting us. We need to continue the hearing with the
16 Before that I should like to tell Mr. Seselj that the Appeals
17 Chamber rendered its decision regarding the appeal which we certified
18 regarding an oral decision that we rendered concerning the coming of a
19 witness. Concerning this issue, the Chamber did not grant the motion of
20 the accused and rejected it, and in accordance with this jurisprudence
21 the Prosecution can call witnesses concerning the municipalities which
22 were suppressed, eliminated, from the indictment, and that is Brcko and
24 So, Mr. Seselj, you will have the ruling of the Appeals Chamber
25 which will be quickly translated, but I just wish to inform you about it.
1 Therefore, we can now start with the cross-examination,
2 Mr. Seselj, and I give you the floor.
3 WITNESS: VILLEM KARLOVIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Karlovic, what kind of education do you
8 A. Secondary education.
9 Q. What school did you graduate from?
10 A. The school of transportation.
11 Q. And what is your rank?
12 A. Captain, captain with -- four-star captain.
13 Q. What other ranks in your case? Let me see. Lieutenant, captain,
14 captain first class, and you said you were a satnik?
15 A. I think it is a captain first class, which means four-star
17 Q. You retired very young. Why?
18 A. I don't need to tell you what my medical problems are.
19 Q. Very well. I won't go into that, then. You achieved a
20 relatively high rank in view of the fact that you only have secondary
21 school education and no military school, which means that you achieved
22 your rank through military struggle, that you performed very well during
23 the war?
24 A. Yes, but subsequently I went to a military school.
25 Q. But you didn't go to military academy.
1 A. No, I simultaneously went to a civilian university.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Will you please try and make
3 breaks between questions and answers because the interpreters are having
4 difficulty following.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
6 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I'm asking you about your educational background. For you to be
8 able to answer the question, what does a cockade mean in your view?
9 A. What I know about a cockade --
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but before answering the
11 question regarding the cockade, I must go back to your educational
12 background. I noted that you were captain first class. You didn't do
13 your military service in the JNA, nor did you go to any military schools,
14 and I thought to myself that you had a rather extraordinary career and
15 made a lot of progress in the Croatian army.
16 Yesterday you told us that you were received by President Tudjman
17 in those days. This morning I wondered whether there may be a
18 cause-and-result relationship. Could you tell me whether in the Croatian
19 army you can become a captain without going through an officer's school
20 of Croatia?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I wasn't received by
22 the president, Dr. Franjo Tudjman; I was received by his bureau, his
23 office. I was received by one of the people in his office and I made my
24 statement about the events at Ovcara there.
25 Secondly, in the Croatian army it was possible to acquire such a
1 rank. I performed from the lowest functions to the level of battalion
2 commander at the end of my career, and simultaneously we were trained in
3 schools and ranks depending on the duties we performed.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Mr. Seselj.
6 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I've already asked you what, in your opinion, does the expression
8 a "cockade" mean?
9 A. A cockade for me is a Serbian mark or coat of arms used on Serb
10 caps, on the sajkaca and subara caps.
11 Q. Why does it have to be a Serbian sign? How would we call the
12 French coat of arms on a French officer's cap?
13 A. I don't know how to answer that. I can't understand what you're
14 asking me.
15 Q. How do you Croats today call the metal marking on an officer's
16 hat, or a policeman, or a railwayman's, a postman's cap? How do you call
17 the insignia, the metal mark, the metal badge?
18 A. We call it a coat of arms.
19 Q. So you don't have any special name for this?
20 A. No.
21 Q. In the Serbian language a cockade is every insignia worn on a
22 cap, any kind of marking worn on a cap is called a cockade. However, in
23 communist times this was replaced by the expression "five-cornered star."
24 Do you remember? You're a young man, but you remember the communist era.
25 It was called a five-cornered star that was worn on a military cap.
1 Nobody called it a cockade. But in the dictionary of the Serbian
2 language, the only expression that exists for a badge worn on a military
3 cap is a cockade.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I'm sorry for
5 interrupting you because now you have been testifying. Will you please
6 ask him the question: If I tell you in Serbia the expression "cockade"
7 means this; do you agree with me or not. If you don't do that, it is you
8 who is testifying, and then the Prosecutor is going to get on his feet
9 and make objections, and we'll be wasting time. So let's be efficient on
10 both sides.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't say in Serbia that the
12 sign is called a cockade but in the Serbian language, and I was just
13 going to ask my next question when you interrupted me.
14 Q. When you say a cockade, does that always have to mean a Chetnik
16 A. Before that I had never seen anywhere this badge, nor am I
17 familiar with the Serbian language to know whether this means a badge or
18 coat of arms. As a young man I saw this worn by Chetniks in films and
19 after that I saw it during the war. So I can't discuss what the Serbian
20 word means.
21 Q. That is not my question. My question is: In your opinion, when
22 the word "cockade" is used, just the word "cockade," does that
23 necessarily have to associate -- be associated with the Chetniks or is it
24 a broader concept? Is a cockade always something belonging to Chetniks?
25 That's my question.
1 A. For me, on the basis of my knowledge, a cockade is always Chetnik
3 Q. And have you -- did you ever come across at the Vukovar theatre
4 of operations and elsewhere, did you come across different types of
6 A. In Vukovar I did. Afterwards I didn't see any cockades as I know
8 Q. Would you describe what you call a cockade?
9 A. For me a cockade is a metal badge containing a Serbian coat of
10 arms, combined with the traditional caps sajkaca and subara.
11 Q. So a metal Serbian coat of arms combined with these caps,
12 traditional caps. That's the cockade. And nothing beyond that?
13 A. As far as I know, that is it.
14 Q. Very well. Would you agree with me when I say that you are not
15 very well versed with a cockade?
16 A. Yes, I would agree. I'm just telling you what I think about it,
17 but you perhaps know more.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you be kind enough, please,
19 to place on the ELMO 48 -- 4186, photograph 4186. That was already used
20 in the examination-in-chief. I can't carry all these things with me.
21 It's heavy anyway. Under the 65 ter, please, 4186.
22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think the
23 document already has an exhibit number so it will be simpler to find it.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, a number has already been
25 given to this document.
1 May I just make a comment before the witness answers. This
2 photograph, as we see it on the screen, is cut off because there's
3 someone else to the left on this photograph whom we don't see on this
4 photograph. There's somebody to the left. We come across this
5 photograph all over the place.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know who the person to the
7 left is and why the Prosecutor is providing such reduced photographs. I
8 can't use exhibit numbers because I still haven't received a list of
9 exhibits, and when documents are admitted into evidence, I should be
10 given such a list.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, when the Prosecutor
12 asked for this photograph to be admitted into evidence, the Registrar
13 gave it a number. Maybe it escaped you but a number was given. But that
14 is not so very important.
15 Yes, Mr. Dutertre.
16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Regarding the reduced picture, it
17 is a still taken from a video clip and so necessarily it is only a part
18 of the video. There was no intention of cutting off parts of the
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, would you proceed
21 with your question.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, Mr. President, the
23 Prosecutor should have given us the video and then we could talk about
24 the video rather than a photograph which the Prosecutor made on the --
25 from the video, and I think that is not appropriate. But I now wish to
1 ask the witness something else so can I have the photograph on the
2 screen, please.
3 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You can see here four soldiers and one civilian; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. One soldier is quite far in the background so you can't see him
7 very well and possibly there's another soldier behind this soldier on the
8 left because we can see some boots.
9 A. Well, I can't see anything on my screen yet so I can't answer
10 that. Yes, I have it now. I can see.
11 Q. During the examination-in-chief, when looking at these two
12 soldiers - one on the left and one behind - you said that they were JNA
13 soldiers, and you said that the right -- the soldier on the right was a
14 Chetnik; is that right?
15 A. I didn't say anything about the one behind. I can't see him. I
16 spoke about the one on the left and the one on the right. And the one on
17 the right, I said that because of the cap he was wearing I would rank him
18 in that category. That's my opinion.
19 Q. Mm, I see. Now, do you see that these two soldiers do not have a
20 five-pointed star on their helmets. Did you notice that?
21 A. Yes, I can see that.
22 Q. And can you see that instead of that wiped-out five-pointed star,
23 the cockade has been stuck on their helmets. Can you see that?
24 A. Well, we have to be quite honest and can't say what it is that's
25 being attached. Maybe it's a flag, a Serbian flag. Maybe it's a white
2 Q. Well, it can't be a white star. The communist pointed star was
4 A. Yes. Well, I made a slip of the tongue.
5 Q. Well, red, blue and white would have been the Serbian flag. It's
6 in colour, so quite obvious if there is no colour in itself the Serbian
7 flag, and it's a double-headed white eagle. That's the Serb emblem?
8 A. Well, yes, that's possible, too.
9 Q. Now, since these two soldiers have the Serbian coat of arms
10 instead of the red five-pointed star, then they could be called Chetniks,
11 too, couldn't they?
12 A. Well, you could, but I have distinguished them in the way I said.
13 Q. Do you see that the soldier on the right has some strange
14 insignia on his cap? I've never seen one like that. Do you know what it
15 is, perhaps? Because it's not a Serbian coat of arms.
16 A. Combined with the cap, as far as I'm concerned - and I say it's a
17 Chetnik cap - so once again I'm giving you my opinion. I can't do more
18 than that, nor did I claim when I was questioned earlier on that that was
19 it 100 per cent. But as far as I was concerned that's what I think.
20 Q. Mr. Karlovic, you don't have to have this defensive mechanism. I
21 do accept your testimony basically, and I think that 90 per cent of what
22 you said was the truth, and I can tell you that straight away. So
23 there's no reason for you to put up this defensive barrier. Let's
24 clarify this together because I find it strange, too, and I feel the need
25 to clarify this by talking to you.
1 So as to relativise this division that you make between the JNA
2 soldiers, the territorials, and the Chetniks, because I don't think that
3 you have provided sufficient grounds to separate these three groups. But
4 I accept your testimony as being 90 per cent correct and everything that
5 you say happened to you personally, I consider that you weren't lying.
6 So I hope I can settle your mind with respect to that and perhaps these
7 things don't seem to be too serious as far as you're concerned, but
8 they're very serious for me.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So let's have that photograph back
10 again, please. May we have the photograph back on our screens?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it on two screens.
12 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Oh, well, you're privileged with respect to me because I have it
14 only on one screen.
15 Anyway, the soldier on the right, can you see that he has the
16 complete uniform of the JNA except the helmet or soldier's cap?
17 A. Well, correct. If you listened to what I was saying, I said it
18 was because of the cap that I would place him in the category I placed
19 him in.
20 Q. I'm going to ask you very short questions and they require short
21 answers. You don't have to go into any explanations, but we'll take it
22 step by step, in detail. I have two and a half hours at my disposal so I
23 want to deal with all the details. We quite obviously see a JNA uniform
24 and it's an old olive-green uniform, the old SMB, olive-green uniforms.
25 A. Right.
1 Q. Over that we have a flak jacket, do we not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that is of a newer date because it's a camouflage
4 bullet-proof vest.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, these two soldiers have the classical olive-green JNA
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Now, you ought to know that until 1991 the JNA exclusively wore
10 this type of uniform, the SMB or olive-green uniform.
11 A. Is that a question?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Yes, I do know that.
14 Q. And do you know that in the second half of 1991 the JNA started
15 producing camouflage uniforms on a large scale.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And do you also know that for instance in one JNA unit some of
18 the soldiers would be wearing the old SMB olive-green uniforms and the
19 other soldiers would be wearing these new camouflage uniforms?
20 A. Yes, that's quite clear to me.
21 Q. All right. So you're clear on that and you're not challenging
23 A. No.
24 Q. So do you agree that on the basis of this photograph we cannot
25 say with any certainty whether these are, in fact, JNA soldiers - I'm
1 referring to these two - doing their regular military service --
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
3 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President. The
4 witness has already answered the question as to which group the soldiers
5 belonged to. He was asked this on a number of occasions. He said that
6 was his feeling; he said why. And I object to having this question put
7 yet again.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Seselj, the accused,
9 said that in his opinion they were members of the JNA, so don't ask him
10 the same question 10 times.
11 I'll put a question to you because it's important. We have a
12 photograph here and we can see four individuals, plus an elderly person
13 with a walking stick who was a prisoner accompanying them. We don't
14 really know. But these four soldiers, one of which isn't wearing a
15 helmet, in your opinion are they members of the JNA or the Territorial
16 Defence or are they volunteers? What would you say?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my opinion, let me repeat, he
18 belongs to a Chetnik formation. That's my opinion and I repeat that.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So in your opinion, even though
20 they're wearing olive-drab uniforms and have helmets, they're Chetniks.
21 Very well. All four of them or the one with the sort of cap on his head?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, just the one with the cap.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The one with the
24 cap, he belongs to a Chetnik unit, to the Chetnik units, and the others
25 are JNA members is what you're saying.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, when I see
2 this cap I would think that it was somebody belonging to a Chetnik
3 formation. That's how I see things.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the soldier with the cap.
5 But what about the four others that we can see wearing drab-olive
6 clothing? Are they Chetniks or JNA members?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, those others would not, as far
8 as I'm concerned, be members of the Chetnik formations. Either the JNA
9 or reservists, but I think they're a bit too old. But it's difficult to
10 say whether they're regular soldiers or not.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're making my cross-examination
13 impossible. When the Prosecution asked even the most ludicrous questions
14 you did not intervene, whereas, as far as I'm concerned, all these
15 questions are very important because I want to make the witness'
16 assertions more relative and how he distinguishes between JNA soldiers,
17 Chetniks, and territorials. I'm going to stay with this photograph for a
18 long time so, Judge, sir, don't call this person a prisoner. He's quite
19 obviously an elderly man who is a civilian whom the soldiers probably
20 found in some cellar, as the line -- front line moved, and they took him
21 out. They're not cocking a weapon at him, he's not tied, and there's
22 nothing to show that he's a prisoner of any kind.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I didn't say he was
24 a prisoner. I said that there were two possible situations. He could be
25 a prisoner, because you can see that he is surrounded in the photograph,
1 but there's another possibility: He could be accompanied by these men.
2 That's what I said. So we don't know what situation this person is in
3 exactly. But that's not the problem. The problem is whether the
4 soldiers we can see are members of the JNA, of the Territorial Defence,
5 or of a Chetnik unit, which is what the witness seems to be saying, at
6 least for one of them, the one with the cap on his head.
7 Please continue.
8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do you exclude the possibility that these soldiers with the
10 helmets are Chetniks, too?
11 A. I cannot exclude that possibility.
12 Q. Very well. Now, since you were at an officer's post, you weren't
13 an officer officially in Vukovar but you were the commander of a squad
14 which is an officer position?
15 A. No, no. It was a junior officer, non-commissioned.
16 Q. Now, have you heard that there was a Chetnik unit with the
17 official title "Chetnik unit" in Vukovar on the other side?
18 A. No, I hadn't heard about that. Not with this official title.
19 Q. And you couldn't have heard about that because you will probably
20 agree with me if I tell you that that kind of unit never existed. Isn't
21 that right?
22 A. Well, all right. I don't know.
23 Q. There was the 1st Guards Brigade opposite you with units of the
24 Territorial Defence and volunteers attached; is that right?
25 A. Well, I don't know who was against us and opposite us in those
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at a 65 ter photograph
3 number 4245 now, please. Now, since you need quite a lot of time for
4 that, may we have 6033 which is a video clip. I'm going to ask that that
5 be shown after the photograph. So 6033 after the photograph, please.
6 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Now, on this photograph we can see that civilian, and obviously
8 it's an elderly man, right?
9 A. Yes, that is right.
10 Q. And quite obviously he is an invalid because he's carrying a
12 A. Well, one can assume that.
13 Q. And he was probably sick, because if you look at his face he was
14 probably sheltering in cellar for a long time; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, next to him you see two soldiers and one is wearing a
17 camouflage uniform without a cap or helmet on his head; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the other is a soldier wearing an SMB, olive-green uniform,
20 with a helmet. Now, can you see that where you would expect to see a
21 five-pointed star there is none?
22 A. I see that.
23 Q. Now, can you see part of this emblem, the double-headed eagle,
24 white eagle on the helmet, up at the top?
25 A. Can we have -- see the top of the photograph?
1 Q. But the videotape would be better, but for some reason the
2 Prosecution doesn't want to show you that.
3 A. Well, I can just see half a helmet, to be quite frank.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. You have the video.
5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, we chose a still image to
6 save time, but we can show the video if you so desire.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 Mr. Seselj, we do have the video. If you like we can see the
9 video, we can look at it.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, let's have the video played.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You saw this clip and it's taken somewhere up at the front line
14 or near the front line. Do you agree?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So the soldiers are taking away a civilian from the front line
17 and are passing towards an area that is safer, so there's no snipers or
18 anything else.
19 A. That's quite possible. It can be a number of situations.
20 Q. Now, do you exclude the possibility that these other soldiers are
22 A. Well, I do.
23 Q. Why?
24 A. Because they were similarly dressed and they look like the one I
25 said that, as far as I'm concerned, they don't look like a Chetnik. But
1 if I'm quite frank, I can just see a white blodge on the helmet, so I
2 don't know what insignia there is there.
3 Q. Do you know that on the opposite side, on the enemy side, very
4 rarely did anybody wear a cap or sajkaca, that most of them wore a
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I don't want to interrupt
8 Mr. Seselj, but he's putting a question of a very general nature, which
9 group did the other soldiers belong to that -- we watched a video. There
10 are a lot of soldiers who we can see and we don't really know who is
11 concerned. Perhaps Mr. Seselj could state which soldier he has in mind
12 when we watch the video, because I'm not quite sure which soldier we are
13 discussing exactly.
14 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you know, Mr. Karlovic, that very rarely did any soldier,
16 whether we're talking about JNA soldiers or territorials or volunteers,
17 that very few soldiers had the fur cap, or sajkaca; that you would see
18 that now and again but infrequently? Are you aware of that?
19 A. In the fighting itself that is correct. That was rare to see.
20 But when the town fell, then there were a lot of this type -- there was a
21 lot of this type of insignia.
22 Q. Well, so somebody might have put a sajkaca, fur cap, on his head
23 who had never worn it before.
24 A. Well, you can't expect me to know that.
25 Q. All right, fine.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now let's have a look at the video
2 clip 6033
3 [Videotape played]
4 "REPORTER: Amongst the horror, there is a surreal incongruity of
5 celebration. Extremist Serb militiamen and women posing triumphantly for
6 an end-of-battle photograph before returning to a morning feast of music
7 and laughter, fuelled by alcohol. The motto on their flag is 'Freedom or
8 Death' and they vow they will fight on."
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Stop it there, please. We'll go
10 back to the beginning again.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. In your opinion, what unit is this? Is this a JNA unit or is it
13 a Territorial Defence unit or a volunteer unit?
14 A. Well, I was thinking the same thing, what they were viewing this
16 Q. Well, quite obviously it is a unit on the enemy side, right? Do
17 you really consider these to be soldiers?
18 A. Why wouldn't they be soldiers? Well, I don't know what answer to
19 give you to that.
20 Q. You don't know what they are?
21 A. No I don't.
22 Q. Well, I'll tell you what I think, and then I'm going to ask
23 you --
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. You're going
25 too fast. The court reporter is finding difficult to follow you in
2 Mr. Seselj, please continue.
3 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You saw that most of them had helmets, right?
5 A. Well, we could put it that way.
6 Q. Now, somebody is wearing either a subara, a fur cap, or a
7 sajkaca, a peasant cap?
8 A. Well, yes, several of them.
9 Q. And they have a Chetnik flag, right?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. And there are girls among them, too, right?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Is it obvious that -- isn't it obvious, then, that these are
15 A. Well, most probably that's correct.
16 Q. Because there were no females in the JNA. Girls didn't do their
17 regular military service?
18 A. Well, no, I don't think so.
19 Q. And girls weren't reservists either, were they?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And they weren't in the Territorial Defence, were they?
22 A. Well, that need not be a strict rule.
23 Q. You mean if someone reported as a volunteer, a girl. So quite
24 obviously we're talking about volunteers and they're gathered together in
25 one particular location; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And they're celebrating their victory; is that true?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Now, do they look inebriated to you? Are they drunk?
5 A. Well, I can't say. I can see that there's some alcohol.
6 Q. Well, did you see that there was just one bottle of alcoholic
8 A. Well, yes, from the clipping that is right.
9 Q. Now, is it possible that the foreign journalist who took this
10 footage gave them a bottle of cognac?
11 A. Well, I'm being asked to speculate. How do I know whether that
12 was the case? How can you know that?
13 Q. Well, I don't know. I'm just guessing you and asking your
15 A. Well, I can't say either. Everything is possible, of course.
16 Q. Well, obviously they had gathered together there and they had to
17 go somewhere, right?
18 A. Once again, speculation. We're assuming something.
19 Q. Yes, of course we're assuming something.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down. Thank
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. You're going
23 too fast. Our interpreters are very vigilant, very competent, but you
24 are going too fast.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm just saying yes or no.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but wait until Mr. Seselj
2 has put his question and wait for a few seconds before you answer the
4 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Now an important question that concerns this footage. Compare --
6 well, this was probably taken on the 18th, 19th, or 20th of November.
7 Compare these people here, what expressions they have on their faces,
8 their excitement, and so on, and compare them to the soldiers at Ovcara,
9 whether we're dealing with the JNA soldiers, territorials, Chetniks, or
10 whatever you called them. Do they appear to you to be the same? Are
11 they in the same mood? Do they have the same facial expressions? Do
12 they seem to have the same intentions?
13 A. If we look at this footage it's impossible to say. It's
14 impossible to answer the question you've just asked me. I remember what
15 it was like at Ovcara and how much desire there was for -- to have our
16 blood, for our blood, and later on I saw some films with flags and they
17 sang songs, such as "bring out the salad and we'll have meat because
18 we're going to slaughter the Croats." But I can't say whether the
19 expressions on their faces are the same, because people are singing here,
20 whereas over there they went out to kill.
21 Q. Well, I agree. I just wanted to hear your answer. Now, you
22 mentioned the song. How does it go? "Oh, Slobo, Croats we will
23 slaughter and then eat, so send us some salad to go with the meat."
24 Now, have you ever heard this song before the war sung at
25 football stadiums, for example Mr. Karlovic?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You haven't heard it?
3 A. Well, I never went to football matches.
4 Q. But do you know a similar song sung by Croat football fans, where
5 it says, Kill, kill Serbs?
6 A. Well, we're talking about football stadiums here.
7 Q. But these are very similar songs and each side has their own song
8 that they sing; isn't that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Karlovic, at Ovcara you were afraid, you had to go
11 through a very difficult situation, but what I'm interested in is this:
12 Could you notice that the people who joined in the beating, that they
13 knew many of the prisoners personally?
14 A. Yes, they did know them.
15 Q. They knew them, didn't they? That means that they had some
16 personal scores to settle; isn't that right?
17 A. Well, I really can't say. I don't know.
18 Q. That they were locals, inhabitants of the same town?
19 A. Well, as I said, some of them knew them.
20 Q. So they had -- there was this mood of revenge and retaliation,
21 and that mood could have been based in something that had gone on in
22 Vukovar previously; isn't that right?
23 A. Well, I can't really say. I wasn't in Vukovar before. I came
24 from Zagreb.
25 Q. I see. According to your testimony, you saw officers there, too,
1 JNA officers, did you not?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. When the beatings stopped you said that the officers started
4 making a list of the prisoners in Ovcara. Did I understand you
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The fact that they made a list, started making a list, could that
8 mean that a decision on execution had not yet been made, because would
9 anybody compile a list before people were to be executed and shot?
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The witness
12 is being asked to speculate. I object.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it's very speculative, a
14 hypothetical question, Mr. Seselj.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, speculation. Mr. Karlovic is
16 an officer, has many years of war experience, and he can say on the basis
17 of his own experience in Ovcara to draw conclusions. You've always
18 allowed that so far when it comes to previous witnesses.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put your question to the
20 witness again, Mr. Seselj.
21 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Now, from the logical point of view, if the intention existed
23 already that this group of prisoners should be executed, that you would
24 have officers coming in -- them to be beaten first, then officers to come
25 in, sit down to a table and draw up a list, isn't that a bit strange?
1 A. Well, I don't know. Maybe it is strange.
2 Q. Do you find it strange as a soldier yourself?
3 A. Well, I can't find it strange because I was never in that kind of
4 situation, so I really can't say.
5 Q. And isn't it a little strange again that this group of soldiers -
6 and you said they were JNA, territorials, Chetniks, and so on - that they
7 brutally beat the prisoners and then that these prisoners were later
8 executed? If they knew they were going to be executed and shot, why
9 would they beat them first?
10 A. Well, Mr. Seselj, it was a vampire ball. It wasn't enough to
11 just kill them but to belittle them and so on.
12 Q. Well, I agree that this is quite wild and brutal behaviour and
13 I'm not challenging the crime. I have never challenged it. A terrible
14 crime did take place and there's no doubt about that. All I'm trying to
15 do is to look at the circumstances, to investigate the circumstances of
16 the event.
17 A. Well, I don't know what other answer to give you other than the
18 one I've given you.
19 Q. Well, that's an answer, too, yes. Now, Mr. Karlovic, you got
20 married just before the war; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you wore your wedding ring. You took it to the battlefield
23 with you; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And it's on your left hand, left finger; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You're a Roman Catholic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the Roman Catholics wear their wedding band on their left
5 hand; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know that we orthodox Serbs wear our wedding bands on our
8 right hand?
9 A. Quite frankly, I have absolutely no idea about that. I don't
11 Q. Well, the public does. That's enough. Now, let's continue with
12 this clip, please. The videotape, let's see more of it
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
15 Q. And look at this man carefully. Can you see his left hand?
16 A. Yes, I can.
17 Q. Can you see the wedding band on his left hand?
18 A. Well, I see a ring. Whether it's a wedding band, I can't say.
19 Q. Well, you know what a wedding band looks like, don't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you call the wedding band a "burma" right?
22 A. Well, a wedding band and I know what "burma" means.
23 Q. Well, it's a gold ring without any gemstones or --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. No adornments. It's just a gold band.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you see it on his left hand?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is he an orthodox -- of the orthodox faith?
5 A. Well, I can't say. It would be strange if I were to say anything
6 like that.
7 Q. But he has his wedding band on his left hand as the Roman
8 Catholics do; isn't that right?
9 A. Yes, it's on his left hand.
10 Q. Yes, very well.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecution can also look into
12 how the orthodox Serbs wear rings. I'm not going to deal with this any
14 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Now I'll move on to some more specific questions with respect to
16 what happened to you over there. In the course of examination-in-chief
17 here you mentioned the Mitnik Battalion; is that right? The Mitnik
18 Battalion surrendered entirely?
19 A. Yes. They were a day or two at Ovcara before us. I'm not sure.
20 Q. And they all went to Sremska Mitrovica?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. To the civilian prison that was taken over by the army for
23 prisoners of war?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Yes. The others didn't want to surrender so they went to the
1 Vukovar Hospital; is that correct?
2 A. Well, the difference is that at the location I was in we weren't
3 organised, whereas Mitnica was still organised. There was no command in
5 Q. The Mitnica detachment surrendered, according to all the
6 regulations; is that correct?
7 A. As far as I know, that's the case.
8 Q. When you mentioned Stuka, you described the manner in which he
9 was dressed, and you said that he had combined various articles of
10 clothing. He had some -- parts of a uniform on him and also civilian
12 A. As far as I can remember, I said he had a short jacket. It
13 resembled a pilot's jacket.
14 Q. But that was not the uniform of someone from the air force.
15 A. Yes, that's quite clear. The jacket was unusual.
16 Q. But you know that Stuka was a JNA soldier.
17 A. Well, that's what he said.
18 Q. He was serving his regular military service; is that correct?
19 A. Well, if what he said is correct, then that's the case. But he
20 introduced himself to me as Ilija, that he wasn't Ilija, and that can be
22 Q. His name was Spasoje?
23 A. Yes, his name was Spasoje.
24 Q. As a JNA soldier he wasn't dressed according to the JNA
25 regulations, at least not completely; is that correct?
1 A. That's what it seems to be.
2 Q. So in the wartime situation one didn't pay too much attention to
3 the way one was dressed, to whether one was dressed correctly; is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And on your side you also had soldiers who were dressed in
7 various manners; is that correct?
8 A. In my unit we were mostly all in uniform, but in other units they
9 could be dressed differently.
10 Q. There were some who fought in blue uniforms or blue overalls.
11 A. Well, they were from the regular police force. I don't know how
12 many of them there were.
13 Q. I saw some of them who had been killed in such clothes.
14 A. Yes, I think they were members of the reserve police force.
15 Q. And there were some HOS forces, Paraga's paramilitary formations.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And they also had their own particular uniforms?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did they wear black uniforms?
20 A. No, they didn't, as far as I can remember. They were also
21 wearing camouflage uniforms.
22 Q. So they went part of your regular unit. You were the ZNG, the
23 home guards unit.
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. You had Borovo yellow boots on you; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. We took them in Vukovar subsequently.
2 Q. They were very good boots?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. They were newer?
5 A. They were all newer.
6 Q. Did you give them to Stuka?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did he give you his footwear?
9 A. No, he didn't give me his footwear. He took some boots or shoes
10 from a pile and gave them to me.
11 Q. What sort of arms did Stuka carry?
12 A. Well, as far as I can remember, he had a large-calibre rifle,
13 perhaps a Browning or an action shotgun.
14 Q. Do you know that the JNA didn't have such rifles in their -- as
15 part of their regular weapons, these pump-action rifles?
16 A. As far as I know -- well, these are details that I'm not familiar
17 with. I didn't really know what sort of weapons the JNA had.
18 Q. Very well. If I tell you that the JNA didn't have such weapons,
19 would you believe me?
20 A. Well, there's no reason for me not to believe you.
21 Q. Did the ZNG have a certain number of pump-action rifles?
22 A. Believe me, we didn't have such pump-action rifles. I'm talking
23 about my unit.
24 Q. About your unit. I understand. If I said I myself saw that our
25 forces had captured a certain number of such pump-action shotguns, would
1 you believe me?
2 A. Why not?
3 Q. So in that case, if Stuka really had a pump-action shotgun, would
4 it be possible to say that this was a war booty?
5 A. That's possible. I'm waiting a bit before I answer because I
6 don't want to be too fast. But I must repeat that I still have this
7 pump-action shotgun in my --
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Prosecution.
9 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] These questions put to the witness
10 call for speculation and I object to this line of questioning.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not asking for the witness to
12 speculate. I'm putting questions to him and he answers these questions
13 to the best of his ability and on the basis of his experience. I'm not
14 asking the witness to do anything. If he doesn't want to answer a
15 question, I can't force him to do so. I don't think this objection is
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, do continue. I
18 can't really see where you're trying to go in when asking these questions
19 about pump-action shotguns, but you certainly have something in mind.
20 But if you fail to make use of it, we will have wasted a lot of time.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have already
22 succeeded in doing much. I hope you will understand that. The witness
23 is confirming my theory that it was not possible to distinguish regular
24 JNA soldiers, members of the Territorial Defence, and volunteers, very
25 clearly on the basis of their external appearance. I have managed to
1 demonstrate this and I am now moving on. If that's all I have managed to
2 demonstrate in the course of my cross-examination, I have good reason to
3 be very satisfied.
4 Mr. President, should I continue?
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue.
6 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
7 Q. We'll now skip a certain number of events and we'll deal with the
8 carpentry workshop from which you were taken out by a group of Chetniks.
9 Is that what you said?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You concluded that they were Chetniks on the basis of their
12 external appearance; is that correct?
13 A. No. They told me they were Chetniks.
14 Q. Did they tell you they were volunteers of the Serbian Radical
16 A. No, they didn't tell me that, naturally.
17 Q. Did any one of them ever mention the Serbian Radical Party while
18 you were with them?
19 A. No. And I didn't say that they had mentioned that party.
20 Q. I'm not accusing you of anything. I just want us to be clear
21 about everything here.
22 When they took you there to some house in Petrova Gora they
23 subjected you to torture?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And while torturing you, Marko Ljuboja accidentally appeared and
1 saw what they were doing to you. He appeared by chance.
2 A. He appeared -- he turned up a little later. First of all someone
3 objected in the house and then left, and then Marko Ljuboja turned up and
4 Predrag Milojevic, also known as Kinez.
5 Q. They arrived together?
6 A. Yes, they arrived together.
7 Q. So could one assume that the person who objected left the house,
8 met them and told them what had happened?
9 A. Well, that's what I found out later.
10 Q. And the two men, Marko Ljuboja, and Predrag Milojevic, Kinez,
11 appeared and tried to save you; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And they took certain risk?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You said there were about 20 people there who were Chetniks and
16 who tortured you.
17 A. Yes. And they also said that they were Chetniks.
18 Q. Yes. And you want to confirm that. But there were only two men
19 here on this occasion.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Kinez had an automatic rifle and Marko Ljuboja only had a pistol;
22 is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And these 20 so-called Chetniks were all armed?
25 A. Absolutely.
1 Q. Predrag Milojevic, Kinez; and Marko Ljuboja, Mare, were on one
2 side, and they had pointed their weapons at the others, and there were
3 another 20 on the other side who were pointing their weapons at these two
4 men; is that correct?
5 A. Can I provide you with a more detailed answer?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. When they entered the room they didn't point their weapons at
8 each other immediately. It didn't come to that immediately. When we
9 left the house, when we went out of the house, things became more tense.
10 That's when they pointed their weapons at each other.
11 Q. At one point in time you mentioned someone called Belgija. He
12 was the one who tortured you most actively?
13 A. Yes. He took me out and he was the person who tortured me most
15 Q. And Kinez put a question to him and said "Belgija, did you
16 capture him at the front line?" He was being cynical?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you understand this in the same way that I understood it?
19 A. I believed that Kinez was mocking Belgija's military skill and
20 his courage. Belgija fled from the front line, he couldn't have captured
21 you from the front line? Is that correct?
22 Q. Yes, that's possible.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: You're going too fast.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. We're being warned again.
25 We'll slow down.
1 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
2 Q. As far as I have understood this, Belgija never went to the front
3 line, he fought somewhere in the rear, and if he got hold of a prisoner,
4 that wasn't good for the prisoner. Would I be correct to say that this
5 was frequently the situation in this war, on the Serbian end and on the
6 Croatian side? Quite frequently the real soldiers didn't commit crimes,
7 at least not generally speaking, whereas cowards, who weren't very
8 efficient at the front line, committed crimes. Am I correct? What do
9 you think?
10 A. I can tell you what I know on the basis of my own experience, on
11 the basis of what I saw on my side. In Vukovar as a prisoner I can draw
12 the conclusion that that is the case, but naturally can't make such
13 claims and say that it's a hundred per cent certain.
14 Q. I just wanted you to comment on my opinion. Nothing else.
15 In the course of that discussion --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Witness. The
17 question that Mr. Seselj has put to you is an important one which could
18 have subsequent consequences. The people who tortured you, who beat you,
19 did you feel -- did you have the impression that these people had been on
20 the front line? Because you were engaged in combat, so you could have
21 noticed whether they had been in a situation in which they had to open
22 fire, or were these people who were members of a reserve force, who had
23 not fought and who maltreated prisoners?
24 My question is very precise. The people who maltreated you, in
25 your opinion, had they already fought at the front line? Had they
1 already been at the front line previously?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Seselj, I never
3 asked myself whether they had fought, whether they were cowards. All I
4 know is that they tortured me, and the last thing that I wanted to think
5 about at the time was whether they were cowards or fighters.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Should I continue?
7 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Karlovic, this firey discussion started between Kinez and
9 Mare on the one side and the 20 so-called Chetniks on the other side. It
10 became so tense that they pointed their weapons at each other; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If the soldiers who are the same -- were just as good, well,
14 would two soldiers have been able to oppose 20?
15 A. I previously said that I thought that Kinez and Mare were people
16 who exercised authority, Kinez in particular.
17 Q. But they weren't from the same unit; is that correct?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. That's what was said on the occasion. Let me remind you of the
20 trial in Belgrade. It was confirmed there. And you testified there on
21 behalf of Kinez and Mare.
22 A. Yes, but I don't think I said that because I thought they were
23 from the same unit.
24 Q. We'll consult the transcript.
25 A. It's possible. It's possible. I know they're not from the same
1 unit. Later on this is what I found out. I learnt that they weren't
2 from the same unit.
3 Q. But they were two heroes, that's quite obvious, and they inspired
4 fear and respect when they appeared; is that correct?
5 A. Well, look, given what they did for me, I really believe that
6 they're heroes.
7 Q. Would you also say they were ready to die in order to save you?
8 A. Well, I had that impression. I thought they were ready to die in
9 order to save me.
10 Q. And although there were 20 men on the other side, they were
11 afraid and no one opened fire in the end; is that correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. So they were cowards. They had commenced something. They
14 outnumbered the others but they then gave way, so they were cowards.
15 Would you agree with that?
16 A. We could say that they were cowards. We could also say that
17 reason prevailed. I know that Kinez said, Well, brothers, we're not
18 going to start opening fire on each other.
19 Q. Given the way that they tortured you, would you draw the
20 conclusion that they were cowards and pathological men?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Because a normal person wouldn't do such a thing; is that
24 A. Yes, I agree.
25 Q. When they were taking you away from Petrova Gora --
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.
2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
3 clarify something. In the question that was put that concerns the fact
4 that you were tortured, "given that you were tortured, would you say that
5 they were cowards and psychopaths," there's a double question and when
6 the witness replies we don't know what he's replying to exactly. Could
7 we break the question up?
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 Mr. Seselj, there were two parts to your question. You can be a
10 coward without being a psychopath and you can be a psychopath without
11 being a coward and you can be both at the same time. So we have several
12 variations, several possibilities. If you believe this is important,
13 could you perhaps break your question up into two questions.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness understood
15 me correctly. An ordinary coward would have fled, but a coward who is a
16 psychopath flees from the front line, but he can hardly wait for the
17 opportunity to torture a prisoner or someone who is helpless. The
18 witness understood me correctly. There's no reason for me to repeat my
19 question. I'll move on, with your permission.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the people who
21 tortured you, in your opinion, were they cowards? Were they psychopaths?
22 Were they both at the same time?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they are the worst kind of
24 people for me.
25 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
1 Q. For me, too. So we agree. We can move on. They're the worst
2 kind of people for me, too, whether you believe me or not.
3 When they were taking you from Petrova Gora, Kinez and Mare
4 said -- told you that these people were betraying the tradition of old
5 Serbian soldiers. Do you remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. They spoke about the heroic traditions behind them and these
8 people were shaming those traditions; is that right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember which unit Predrag Milojevic, Kinez, and Marko
11 Ljuboja, Mare, belonged to?
12 A. I know they were volunteers, but I don't know which unit they
13 belonged to.
14 Q. Had you heard of the Leva Supoderica detachment?
15 A. Yes, I heard later on.
16 Q. And at the trial in Belgrade you heard that they belonged to this
18 A. I think so.
19 Q. And do you know, Mr. Karlovic, that at the Vukovar theatre of war
20 all volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party were exclusively members of
21 the Leva Supoderica detachment?
22 A. Quite frankly I must admit that I didn't know that they belonged
23 to the Serbian Radical Party.
24 Q. I'm not saying that these two belonged to the Serbian Radical
1 A. I'm talking about the detachment. I didn't know that the members
2 of the detachment were members of the Radical Party.
3 Q. But you don't have to know these things. Anyway, I will now read
4 out a paragraph from the records of the trial in Belgrade. This was
5 happening in your presence. You made your statement and then Marko
6 Ljuboja and Predrag Milojevic, Kinez, asked you certain questions; is
7 that right? This happened in Belgrade. You greeted them warmly there.
8 A. Yes, indeed, I did.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have this document, provided to
10 me by the Prosecution, but I don't have the ERN number. It is the
11 audio-recording from the 13th of September, 2005, the chamber for war
12 crimes of the district court in Belgrade. You can find it. It is page
13 32-45, so could you place it on the ELMO. But I don't have the ERN
14 number. Is that a problem for the Registry? It may be of interest to
15 place this document on the ELMO.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be better to
17 show the document on the ELMO because the registrar tells me that they
18 cannot trace it.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't put my document under the
20 ELMO. What am I going to read, then? I have several pages marked here
21 from which I wish to quote. Perhaps the Prosecutor has a copy of this
22 document, because I received it from the Prosecution.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please put your
24 question on the basis of your document.
25 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
1 Q. You heard there that Marko Ljuboja presented his version of
2 events in the house of Petrova Gora, and then the presiding judge asked
3 you to express your views about it; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then Marko Ljuboja said --
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Have you found it? It is page
7 32/45. Yes, that's it. 32/45. The paragraph is 4.
8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Never mind, you've already confirmed that -- all that contained
10 in this paragraph. Marko Ljuboja describes the situation. You were
11 sitting, stripped to the waste, et cetera. But the last paragraph on
12 that page, Marko Ljuboja describes his motives for saving you. Would you
13 like to read out what he said? Do you know the Cyrillic script? If it's
14 a problem I'll do it?
15 A. "At that moment he was a Croatian prisoner of war and nothing
16 more than that for me. For me, therefore, he was a Croatian, enemy
17 soldier, who was captured and I would not allow him to be killed in that
18 way. Nothing more than that. Therefore, there was no other reason for
19 us to save him. At that moment when we drew our weapons, if Villem
20 remembers, I had my pistol cocked and they held their rifles pointed at
21 us and we walked along the whole corridor in that way, pointing our
22 weapons at each other."
23 Is that the truth?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Then you go on to say -- now, would you read out the first
1 paragraph from the next page, what you said.
2 A. "And in that way we reached the yard and you pushed me -- you put
3 me on your back" --
4 Q. Well, this must be an error. It says here "on your back." But
5 "behind your back they had their weapons -- they had their weapons
6 pointed at each other." And then there was an exchange of swear-words,
7 is that right, between those who were saving you and those who were
8 torturing you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then Marko Ljuboja mentions the swear-words used, doesn't he?
11 A. Yes. Mothers were sworn at and then they could kill me, across
12 their dead bodies.
13 Q. That's what Kinez said, you can kill them over our dead bodies.
14 You can see it later that Marko Ljuboja says that that is what Kinez
15 said. Have you found that place?
16 A. Yes, I have. Mare asks me: "Did Kinez say you can kill him over
17 our dead bodies?" And I say yes.
18 Q. When you went through the door, some jumped through the window to
19 be quicker.
20 A. I can't remember that, but that is what Marko Ljuboja says.
21 Q. Can you remember? Can you see that on this page?
22 A. Just a moment, please.
23 Q. It says here, but it's not very important if you haven't found
24 it. Let's go back to what you said. Marko Ljuboja asks you: "Did he
25 apologise to you, and why?" And your answer is the sixth brief paragraph
1 from the top. The witness answers -- could you read that out, please.
2 It's what you said.
3 A. Just a moment for me to find it.
4 Q. "Are you apologising to me?"
5 A. Shall I read it out?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. "If you apologise, because if you were a Serb that believes in
8 God, because everything that was happening and did happen was not being
9 done by all Serbs, and then you apologised to me on behalf of the entire
10 Serbian nation."
11 Q. And then Marko Ljuboja goes on. Would you read it?
12 A. And then Marko Ljuboja asks me: "Did I say that I apologised on
13 behalf of Serbia in the First World War? Because the Serbian army never
14 did any such things." And my answer is: "Quite so. I now remember."
15 Q. Then he talks about the traditions of the Serbian army. We won't
16 go into that. Move on to the next page, please. Yes, the next page.
17 Now, the third paragraph from the bottom, the presiding judge asks Marko
18 Ljuboja: "Who are those men, if you know?" And then will you read what
19 Marko Ljuboja says?
20 A. "I don't know who those men are. I came there because my
21 soldier, Plave, told me that they are having fun and throwing grenades
22 and that people couldn't sleep, and I thought it was my unit doing this.
23 When I entered I found these men and that is why they reacted in that way
24 and said, 'This is not your unit. This is not your prisoner.'"
25 Q. Now, please move on two pages forward. It's page 36/45. Here,
1 Predrag Milojevic, Kinez, he tries to explain which unit it was. Could
2 you read that out too, please? If you're tired, I can do it. But as
3 these are your friends and saviours --
4 A. There's no problem.
5 Q. Well, please be kind enough to read it. Page 36/45. At the top
6 of the page, please, the first line. Predrag Milojevic, Kinez, is
8 A. Shall I read it?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. "As far as the composition of those men is concerned, I'd like to
11 make an explanation, I'd like an explanation." And the president asks:
12 "Who were those men?" Milojevic answers: "I know their nicknames,
13 Belgija, Spasoje."
14 Q. You probably heard those names and you confirm that.
15 A. Yes. I said I heard of Belgija. "Spasoje, Belgija, Ciga," says
16 Milojevic. "There was a woman in that room." This is what I said.
17 Milojevic says, "I don't remember the woman. There was an elderly man
18 from Vinkovci, known as Cica."
19 Q. You mentioned Cica?
20 A. Yes. Miljan or Miljan, but I did say that he was an elderly man.
21 Q. And then what do you go on to say?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute, please, you're
23 going too quickly. Start up again, please.
24 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
25 Q. You say that Cica tied you.
1 A. No, I wasn't tied for a moment.
2 Q. Are you sure that you said that?
3 A. I'm not sure. I'm just showing you the transcript. Where does
4 it say that?
5 Q. After Predrag Milojevic, who mentions Cica, and then you say,
6 "that one tied me up."
7 A. No, I said that one cut me up. That must be a mistake in the
9 Q. I believe you, sir. I'm just pausing. Can we move on?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So there's an error in the notes here. You said this one cut me
12 up, not tied me up. And what does Predrag Milojevic say after that?
13 A. "The older man from Vinkovci, Cica, who also argued fiercely with
14 me and who held his pistol, not the rifle," because when I said they
15 couldn't do this, they picked up their weapons. However, I said: "Don't
16 touch your weapons. At that moment Mare held his pistol like this, if
17 you recall," and my answer is, "yes, I do." Then Milojevic says I said
18 that I caught him and pushed him behind me because I didn't dare put him
19 next to Karlovic so that someone who may be drunk wouldn't open fire
20 arbitrarily. I don't quite understand this.
21 Q. And then the presiding judge asks: "Yes, but who were those men,
22 Mr. Milojevic? And then Milojevic answers. Will you read that?
23 A. Milojevic says: "I tell you, they were men from Vinkovci. This
24 Cica himself was from Vinkovci. Then there was a Zolja, if you
25 remember." And then I answer: "I don't remember that one." Shall I go
2 Q. Yes, please.
3 A. "There were some five or six young men. I referred to them when
4 I said, Aren't you ashamed to torture such a man in the presence of these
5 children who were so young, and they were standing in the left corner, if
6 you remember." And I say "Yes."
7 Q. And then Milojevic says: "Ceda answered, I will use some bad
8 language now and he says, Who fucks their mother? Let them get stronger.
9 Is that right?" And then you answer "yes?" You said that Ceda and
10 Belgija were the most aggressive. And then what Pedrag Milojevic says.
11 Ceda and Belgija, and then there was someone with a nickname. Remember,
12 this is a unit from Vinkovci. And then Predrag Milojevic, Kinez, says
13 that it was a unit from Vinkovci"; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what could that unit be, a unit from Vinkovci, which was
16 never under Serb control during the war?
17 A. They were not under Serbian control because as far as I know more
18 than 90 per cent of the population were Croats.
19 Q. Yes, but there was a group of Serbs who fled from Vinkovci and
20 who formed a unit. We can conclude that from this. Vinkovci is west of
21 Vukovar, right, so they're not in Serbia, they're not volunteers from
23 A. Fortunately they were not. Fortunately that Vinkovci is not part
24 of Serbia.
25 Q. No, what I mean is fortunately that they were not volunteers from
1 Serbia, so here we are on different sides.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What's the problem now? We are too
4 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm having difficulty figuring out who's
5 speaking and what is being quoted. Please slow down.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please, as this is an
7 important point. It should be included in the transcript.
8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Please follow me closely. I will repeat slowly. So Vinkovci is
10 a town in Slavonia; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Throughout the war Vinkovci were under Croatian control. They
13 were never under Serb control; is that right?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. A certain percentage of Serbs did live in Vinkovci. I don't know
16 the exact percentage. Not many anyway. Is that right?
17 A. As far as I know a very small percentage.
18 Q. But a certain number of Serbs had fled Vinkovci.
19 A. Possibly, yes.
20 Q. And Predrag Milojevic, Kinez, says here that those Serbs had
21 formed a unit; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So the men who tortured you, according to Predrag Milojevic,
24 Kinez, were people from Vinkovci.
25 A. Belgija introduced himself and said he was from Belgrade and that
1 he was a leader of the Fans of Partizan, a football club.
2 Q. You know he could have said anything to you, but we're discussing
3 here what happened at the proceedings in Belgrade. He could have used my
4 name in introducing himself; isn't that so?
5 A. Yes, but you're asking me to confirm that they were from
6 Vinkovci. Some may have been, some not.
7 Q. I'm not asking you to confirm this. We're just going through the
8 transcript of the proceedings in Belgrade. You don't know those men.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So we are going through the transcript of your testimony in
11 Belgrade. That is what is important for me. Because I was not familiar
12 with any of those events until I saw your statement. Do you believe me?
13 A. Why wouldn't you believe me?
14 Q. For me the people who are familiar with the facts are important
15 for me.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute.
17 Mr. Prosecutor.
18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness didn't
19 know those men, but I think if we wish to put this evidence before the
20 Chamber, it would be appropriate for the accused to call these witnesses
21 who testified in those proceedings and who describe the origin of the
22 unit. Otherwise questions being -- that would be the best way to put
23 questions and cross-examine the witness.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think there is no point in this
25 objection. I'm using a document here that was given to me by the
1 Prosecution to use, and the Prosecution is not going to tell me who I
2 will call as defence witnesses. I will call those I wish. I am now
3 cross-examining a Prosecution witness and using documents given to me by
4 the Prosecution, so I am acting quite appropriately. This witness is an
5 eye-witness of the events in the courtroom in Belgrade, and he's telling
6 us what happened in that courtroom.
7 Is it time for the break, Mr. President?
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Before the break I have a
9 question for you, Mr. Witness. Before the judges of the court in
10 Belgrade, according to the document we have in front of us, that the unit
11 that tortured you in this carpentry shop were men from Vinkovci, a town
12 which was not in Serbia and is in Croatia, and a reasonable judge could
13 make the conclusion that those who tortured you were members of this
14 unit. Nevertheless, it would appear that a certain point, this Belgija,
15 the Belgian, told you that he was the leader of the Fans of the Partizan
16 Football Club from Belgrade, and again a reasonable judge could draw the
17 conclusion from this that this Belgija was not in fact a person from
18 Vinkovci but that he originated from Belgrade. What is your feeling, if
19 you have any? You may not, which we can fully understand.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't give thought to this
21 matter of where they came from. I just know what Belgija told me. I
22 didn't make any conclusions about Vinkovci. I heard about Vinkovci for
23 the first time in Belgrade.
24 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Karlovic, did you ever in a statement mention that Belgija
1 introduced himself as being from Belgrade?
2 A. Yes, I did. I mentioned this, maybe not here, but I did mention
3 it when I made my statement in Croatia. I don't know whether I mentioned
4 it anywhere else.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you,
6 Mr. President, to ask the Prosecutor to find in his documents during the
7 break whether Mr. Karlovic ever said about Belgija that he came from
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I help you? I think I didn't
10 make such a statement here.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Never?
13 A. No, never.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case I don't need to ask
15 the Prosecutor to do this.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It is time for the
17 break. We will have a 20-minute break now.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.03 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.26 a.m.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.
21 The first thing I wish to say, I wish the registrar to give us
22 the time, that is, how much is left for Mr. Seselj.
23 Secondly, I address Mr. Seselj and the witness. Please slow down
24 the pace because, as you saw a moment ago, the interpreters and the court
25 reporter had a great deal of difficulty. And before answering the
1 question, Witness, please wait a few seconds. Count up to five before
2 answering and that will give us a chance to record everything, because if
3 it goes too quickly something very important, a word or a phrase, may not
4 be recorded even though it may be of the greatest importance. That is
5 what I wish to draw your attention to.
6 Mr. Seselj has used one hour and 15 minutes and he has another
7 one hour and 15 minutes.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Karlovic, the last thing you said before the break was this:
11 It was your confirmation that you'd never before stated that this man
12 Belgija introduced himself as the leader of the Partizan football fans
13 from Belgrade; is that right?
14 A. I don't think I did say that in this trial. That's what I said.
15 Q. Did you say it at some other trial, then?
16 A. I don't think I said it at any trial. I don't think I mentioned
17 that at all.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, perhaps it is true and correct because you
19 happened to remember this at the time, but are you quite sure about that?
20 Because I have a dilemma as soon as I decide to believe you.
21 Mr. Karlovic, you know that quite a lot of Serbs from the territory of
22 Croatia were fans of the Belgrade football clubs Partizan and Red Star,
23 or Crvena Zvezda. Do you know that?
24 A. Yes, I do know that.
25 Q. Now, I'm facing a dilemma. If I believe you, that Belgija
1 actually said that to you, did he say that he was from Belgrade and that
2 he was the leader of the Partizan football fans there, or was he the
3 leader of the Partizan football fans from Vinkovci? What would you say?
4 A. All I said was what he told me and the way in which he introduced
5 himself to me. So let me repeat: He said to me that his name was
6 Belgija, that he was from Belgrade, and that he was the leader of the
7 Partizan football fans.
8 Q. Now, during the break I contacted my associates and there are
9 people there who are Partizan fans, and they said that there was never a
10 Partizan supporter fan from Belgrade nicknamed Belgija. There was a man
11 called Celzi and Combe and some other characteristic nicknames, but never
12 a Belgija, or Belgian.
13 A. Well, I'm not claiming that either, nor is it important for me.
14 All I'm doing is repeating what the man told me.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Seselj.
16 Witness, judging by the accent of a person speaking
17 Serbo-Croatian, can one tell whether he is from Belgrade or from a part
18 of Croatia?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, you can distinguish a
20 Belgrade accent, or rather, a Serbian accent or a Croatian accent. Of
21 course you can distinguish between the two accents, if I've understood
22 your question correctly.
23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, you have. And in this
24 particular case do you remember being able to make this distinction?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wouldn't be proper of me if I
1 said that I did recall whether the Ikavian or Ekavian accent was used,
2 that would be out of place. I can't remember but I do know what the man
3 said to me.
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Do you exclude all possibility of him introducing himself as the
7 leader of the Partizan fans, the Partizan from Belgrade, without saying
8 that he was from Belgrade, too?
9 A. He said from Belgrade, the Partizan football fans leader, and I
10 repeat what he said.
11 Q. All right. Fine, Mr. Karlovic. If you had already said that
12 somewhere else I could examine you on that point, but I haven't found it
13 anywhere in the documents or anywhere else. But it's not an essential
15 Let's move on to page 37/45. Have you found the page? You see
16 here the presiding judge, in the first paragraph, referring to Predrag
17 Milojevic, a.k.a. Kinez, says that he went to see Lancuzanin and some
18 others were with Bojkovski and Radic, and so on. And now in the fourth
19 paragraph Predrag Milojevic is giving a more precise explanation as to
20 which units these people were from, the people that tortured you,
21 captured you with the intention of killing you. So would you look at
22 that paragraph 4 and tell us what Predrag Milojevic says?
23 A. "A lot was talked about here about formations. A real conclusion
24 was never reached as to what formations were active over there. You had
25 over there units at Velepromet and certainly some 50 men who joined or
1 did not join the units."
2 Q. Pause there, please. How do you explain this?
3 A. Well, I must say I didn't understand what this means, "joined or
4 didn't join." I'm not clear on that.
5 Q. Well, I'm trying to understand this. There were 50 men who at
6 one time were in certain units and sometimes they acted on their own.
7 A. That's the conclusion that could be drawn.
8 Q. They were armed people, armed men, that were not included in any
9 JNA units and forces under JNA control; is that right?
10 A. That's what Predrag says.
11 Q. So these were some sort of outlaws, irregular fighters? Can you
12 draw that conclusion as a soldier?
13 A. Well, you could put it that way.
14 Q. All right. Continue reading to the end of the paragraph, please.
15 A. It says: "I said that they -- I said that I thought they joined
16 the 2nd Company, that unit, that is to say, they were from within the
17 composition of the other company. They were Negoslavcani and they
18 belonged to the Negoslavacki Battalion. Because that man from Vinkovci,
19 Cica, who was there, he belonged to the Negoslavci Battalion, because
20 when we worked the settlement, the right side, I had a connection with
21 him and he belonged to the Negoslavci Battalion."
22 Q. Are you clear on the fact that when Predrag -- that Kinez said,
23 "When we did the settlement," it meant they took control of the
24 settlement; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So when he took control of the settlement he came into contact
2 with a Negoslavci Battalion; is that how you interpret that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And in that Negoslavci battalion there was this man called Cica.
5 Am I right in saying that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Have you ever heard of the Territorial Battalion from Negoslavci.
8 A. I heard about it later on but not at the time.
9 Q. And do you agree that Predrag Milojevic identifies these people
10 as members of the 2nd Company of the Battalion of the TO for armed
12 A. All I can say is what Predrag said. That's all I have to go on.
13 Q. Do you believe him?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Is that what he said?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Karlovic. Now, do you know where Negoslavci are
19 A. Roughly.
20 Q. It's a village near Vukovar, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down once again, please. Thank
24 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Now let's take a look at something else. I have a question
1 concerning the transcript, or rather the stenographic notes. Maybe we
2 have finished with that area. It's not essential.
3 Mr. Karlovic, you know that Marko Ljuboja, Mare, and Predrag
4 Milojevic, Kinez, were tried in Belgrade for war crimes.
5 A. Yes, I do know about that.
6 Q. Do you also know that Predrag Milojevic, Kinez, as one of the
7 commanders - I think he was come in as deputy - was given a prison
8 sentence of 20 years?
9 A. I do know that, yes.
10 Q. Do you know that the only proof and evidence against him that
11 they had was that on that day, prior to the crime, he was seen at Ovcara?
12 A. I don't know what proof they had and on what grounds he was found
13 guilty. I really don't know.
14 Q. Now, Predrag Milojevic, a.k.a. Kinez, and Marko Ljuboja, a.k.a.
15 Mare, when they saved you, did they look to you like people who had just
16 come back from Ovcara where they had spent the whole night executing
17 people, and then they took it into their heads to save you? Is that the
18 impression you gained?
19 A. I already answered that question in Belgrade in a similar
20 fashion. I simply don't believe that those people, after what they did
21 for me, that they could be killers. I've already stated that. That is
22 my opinion. That is what I think about them.
23 Q. Do you know the names of the other accused in the Belgrade
24 trials? Are you familiar with their names?
25 A. To be quite frank I don't know, except for one man who was a
1 protected witness.
2 Q. All right, then, we won't mention him. Now, is it clear to you
3 that Predrag Milojevic, Kinez; and Marko Ljuboja, Mare; Milan Lancuzanin
4 Kameni, their commander; and Slobodan Katic, as members of the Leva
5 Supoderica detachment, were tried in Belgrade exclusively in order to
6 create an artificial link between me and the crime in Ovcara. Is that
7 quite clear to you?
8 A. Let me just answer and say that I have heard about Kameni because
9 a moment ago I said I didn't know of him. I know about Lancuzanin . As
10 to what you're asking me now, I really don't know. I can't say whether
11 those legal proceedings were undertaken to implicate you. I really don't
13 Q. Well, in the theory of speech and rhetorics, there's a rhetorical
14 question. You put the question but don't really expect an answer?
15 A. I know that you make ample use of that.
16 Q. All right, Mr. Karlovic. Now, let's look into something else,
17 something that you introduced --
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A small question, Witness.
19 When you attended the proceedings in Belgrade, were you a witness of the
20 prosecution or of the defence?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to object.
22 It was the continental system and all witnesses are witnesses of the
23 court. It is the court who decides who it's going to call as a witness,
24 not the prosecution and not the defence. They cannot call witnesses
25 independently. They make their proposals but it is the court that
1 decides who's going to be on the list of witnesses.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you received an order to
3 appear before the tribunal, as Mr. Seselj says, was it indicated that the
4 court is asking you to appear and not the prosecutor or the defence?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like this. Let me try and
6 explain in my own words, as I understood it. I was the first to say at
7 the trial that I wasn't a witness either of the defence or of the
8 prosecution but a witness of the truth, and the presiding judge, the
9 president of the trial chamber, the judge, confirmed that, that I was
10 there only to tell the truth, that I was neither a prosecution witness
11 nor a defence witness. I hope that makes things clearer now, the way in
12 which I have just answered your question.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, your answer is quite
14 correct. Here, too, you're a witness of the truth, even though you have
15 been called by the Prosecution. But my question was of a technical
16 nature and that is, was it -- it was the tribunal who called you to
17 appear and not the prosecutor or the defence. That was my question.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was called by the court to
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
21 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Karlovic, you described and commented on the Chetnik flag
23 that was shown on the video clip, and you explained that you'd never seen
24 a flag like that in Vukovar but that you had seen it on Croatian
25 television. Now, have you ever seen or did you ever see the same flag
1 twice, if we're not talking about the same footage? The same flag, the
2 same insignia and everything else the same, were all those flags unique,
3 devised according to somebody's image?
4 A. I really can't remember. I just remember that black flag with
5 the skull and bone emblem. But maybe I haven't understood your question
7 Q. If I tell you that from the 1990s onwards there was never a
8 factory production of Chetnik flags, uniform factory manufacture, but
9 that the flags were designed by individuals on a need-to-use basis, when
10 they felt a need for a flag, would you believe me when I tell you that?
11 A. Well, you're putting me in a very difficult situation. Possible,
12 not possible. Believe you, not believe you. Everything is possible.
13 Q. Well, I won't belabour the point, then, and tire you with that.
14 Let's move on to another question, another area, that you haven't
15 mentioned yet, that you never mentioned before, and then suddenly it
16 appeared in your consolidated statement. You know what question I'm
17 relating to.
18 A. Probably the loudspeaker.
19 Q. Yes. We ought to clarify that now. You said that between the
20 10th and 15th of November --
21 A. Roughly, roughly around that time.
22 Q. Yes, that's what I said. Roughly between the 10th and 15th of
23 November - we don't know exactly when - you said that on several
24 occasions you heard my voice over the loudspeaker calling for a
1 A. I heard a voice similar to yours. Similar to yours, that sounded
2 like your voice.
3 Q. But you're not certain that it was my voice?
4 A. Certainly not I'm certain, but it sounded like you.
5 Q. And that that person said, "Ustashas surrender. There's no need
6 for you to continue dying. Everything's over with the town so surrender
7 so you shouldn't be killed for no reason."
8 A. Well, something like that.
9 Q. You know that when the war began in Vukovar there was no
10 electricity, no electric power.
11 A. Yes, I do know that.
12 Q. So how did this loudspeaker work? Was there a generator,
13 separate generator of some kind?
14 A. Perhaps it wasn't recorded, but I said that it appeared to me as
15 if it was a loudspeaker attached to a vehicle, and you know yourself that
16 for military purposes you can produce electric power whether there's any
17 electricity or not in town.
18 Q. Yes, Mr. Karlovic, I know that, but I never heard of any
19 loudspeaker system being used in Vukovar and that's not contained in any
20 Prosecution witness' statement, whether they are crime-base witnesses or
21 witnesses on the Serb side. So that seems a little strange, that
22 suddenly you happen to remember that voice over this loudspeaker and the
23 message, because I've never heard of this loudspeaker before.
24 A. Do you want me to answer that?
25 Q. Well, perhaps you could comment, give us your opinion, your
2 A. All I can do is to repeat what I heard and how I heard it, and
3 that's 100 per cent how it was. I just said that the voice was similar
4 to your voice.
5 Q. And how come you never remembered that in the many statements and
6 testimonies you gave?
7 A. Well, let me tell you one thing. There's always something that
8 comes to mind and other things that you tend to forget, so that's it.
9 Everything is possible.
10 Q. Perhaps you heard an interview of mine on the -- over the radio
11 and then I might have said something similar that you should surrender,
12 not to lay down your lives in vain, and so on.
13 A. Well, I haven't had hallucinations like that yet.
14 Q. All right, fine, but I can't understand where you got this
15 loudspeaker from?
16 A. Well, ask around. There were loud speakers.
17 Q. You want me to ask around whether I spoke over the loud speaker?
18 A. No, I didn't say that. You said that you never heard of any loud
19 speakers, and I said that you should ask around and you'll be given the
21 Q. Well, when I was walking around Vukovar I saw Major Sljivancanin
22 using his Motorola radio station, for instance, and he talked to Jastreb,
23 your commander, Dedakovic, right?
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, once again you are
25 going too quickly.
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And once again you're
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I want to ask the witness a
4 question, whereas you're intervening straight away. I have the right to
5 pose leading questions.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the right, but put the
7 question directly, not a monologue first and then a question. Go
8 directly to the question.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, since the witness isn't quite
10 certain that he actually heard my voice, then there's no reason for me to
11 waste time on that and belabour the point, so I'm moving on to another
12 area, another question.
13 I have received some more documents here from the Prosecution, so
14 I'd like to have the following document, ERN number 0207-7562 placed on
15 the overhead projector, please, and it is quite obviously a set of
16 documents from the Croatian government. I don't know what ministry,
17 whether the police or the defence ministry, but I was disclosed as part
18 of that document. And I'm going to put the -- present the document to
19 you here --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the registrar can't
21 find the document by using the ERN number, so it would be best to put the
22 document on the ELMO.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, all I have here is one
24 example. I didn't make a photocopy because I thought that you had this.
25 But then the registrar should supply me with it.
1 Anyway, put this on the overhead projector. I have two questions
2 I want to deal with it. First put this page on the overhead projector
3 and then the next one and then I'll show you something else.
4 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
5 Q. So this is an official document of the Croatian government that
6 conducted an investigation into the events in Vukovar, and they presented
7 their own version, of course. But what I'm interested in in this one
8 sentence which they take note of on the basis of this investigation, that
9 under the command of the 1st Guards Brigade -- now, let's see what's
10 underlined here. That there were various volunteer Chetnik detachments,
11 detachments of the Territorial Defence from the village of Negoslavci and
12 from the Vukovar local community of Petrova Gora; is that right?
13 A. Do you want me to answer?
14 Q. Well, I just say what the point of this is so that you can give
15 us your judgement. The Croatian government says that we're dealing with
16 different volunteer Chetnik detachments, different ones, various ones.
17 The accent is on the word "razni," different. Now, do you agree that
18 that corresponds to what the situation was like in the field?
19 A. I can't answer that question. I do know there were Chetnik
20 detachments. Whether there were different ones, I don't know. Probably
21 volunteer ones. I don't know how to answer that.
22 Q. Do you consider all volunteer units to be Chetnik units?
23 A. No, I don't.
24 Q. Now, do you know that the Croatian politicians and Croatian
25 propaganda in general called the JNA, for example, the Serbo-Chetnik or
1 Yugo-Chetnik armada?
2 A. Well, I don't remember that. Quite possibly.
3 Q. Do you know that on the Croatian side they called all Serb
4 fighters Chetniks?
5 A. Well, it wasn't quite like that.
6 Q. It wasn't, you say. Right. Now, do you know that the vast
7 majority of the Serb fighters in this war was proud of being called
8 Chetniks? They referred to themselves as Chetniks, regardless of which
9 formations and units they belonged to?
10 A. I really don't know who was proud and whether they were proud. I
11 can't answer that and you have to respect that.
12 Q. But you put yourself right during the testimony in Belgrade when
13 you said Chetniks and then you said, I don't want to offend anybody.
14 A. Well, it depends how people see this.
15 Q. All right. Would you turn to the next page, please, because I
16 have underlined another sentence there.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I haven't got it up on my screen
18 yet. It hasn't appeared.
19 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Would you read out that sentence, please?
21 A. "Many Chetniks at the beginning, in order to aggrandise their
22 contribution to the liberation of Vukovar, introduced themselves falsely
23 as executors and participants in a slaughter. In fact, in the slaughter
24 numerous members of the 1st Guards Brigade of the JNA took part and the
25 Territorial Defence who were subordinated to it."
1 Q. Stop there. We're not interested in the rest. It deals with
2 something else and not essential here.
3 Is it clear to you in what way the Croatian authorities were --
4 identified the perpetrators of crimes?
5 A. All that's super, but I don't -- I know what saw in -- at Ovcara
6 and I don't know what this has to do with it.
7 Q. Well, I'm asking your opinion of this?
8 A. Well, I can read it out and that's it. That's what it says. But
9 I really don't know how I can answer that. What opinion do you think I
10 ought to have concerning this?
11 Q. All right. Give me the document, please, and I'll tell you why.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, read through the
13 paragraph slowly again, because it went so fast that there is something
14 that I missed. Could you read out everything that has been underlined,
15 or even the paragraph from the very beginning?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "After this event the Chetniks
17 celebrated in the town of Vukovar, and the truth about this terrible
18 crime rapidly spread throughout the Republic of Croatia. At the
19 beginning many Chetniks, in order to aggrandise.
20 Their contribution to the liberation of Vukovar, falsely
21 presented themselves as the executors and participants of the slaughter.
22 In fact numerous members of the 1st JNA Guards Brigade and TO units that
23 were subordinated to it participated in the slaughter."
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's all we wanted. We won't
25 speculate about who is guilty.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.
2 Witness, this report, which seems to be a Croatian government
3 report -- well, it's an investigation that must have been carried out
4 following the events in Vukovar, so we're talking about the Croatian side
5 that compiled this report. It's not a Serbian report. And this report
6 concludes that the crimes allegedly committed can be attributed to the
7 JNA and to the Territorial Defence, and the report adds that Chetniks
8 celebrated the victory - and this is what we saw in the video - but that
9 in fact they pretended to be those involved in the event, but in fact it
10 was the JNA and the Territorial Defence who were involved in the event.
11 Would you agree with this conclusion or not? Do you contest this
12 conclusion or is there nothing you can say about it?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't carry out this
14 investigation myself, and secondly I was at the site in question and I do
15 know that they all participated in crimes there.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You say all of them
17 participated, and that includes the Chetniks?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those who tortured me claimed to be
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not contest
22 this, but the term Chetnik is far too wide, far too broad, and it only
23 represents the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party. That's my point.
24 I hope you understand me.
25 Could I have this document, please.
1 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Karlovic, in what follows in the document, one can see that
3 the document was compiled on the basis of your testimony as well.
4 Unfortunately I don't have that on me. But the Croatian government says
5 the other witnesses and then your name is the first one that appears.
6 Please have a look at it. Is what I have said correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Very well.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you give me the document
10 back, please, and we'll move on to the next one.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Karlovic, before you came to testify in this case against me
13 in The Hague, did some Croatian military or police department speak to
15 A. In the last 10 years no one from Croatia has spoken to me. Let's
16 say that that concerns the last 10 years, roughly speaking.
17 Q. But in the Mrksic, Sljivancanin, and Radic case, you confirmed
18 that someone spoke to you before your testimony.
19 A. Yes, before the very first testimony. Perhaps the information
20 was erroneously conveyed. But after that initial conversation no one
21 spoke to me.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please place 0261-2957 on
23 the ELMO.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The registrar tells me that he
25 can't find the document in the system, so it would be best to place the
1 document on the ELMO.
2 Mr. Seselj, do you have this document on you or not?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but I'm really
4 surprised to see that your electronic system isn't functioning correctly.
5 Please could you place the first page on the ELMO first and then the
6 other page that I have marked. But could we first have the title page on
7 the ELMO. We need to see the entire page.
8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Karlovic, you can see that this is an official document from
10 the Croatian Ministry of Defence; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It is the security and information service. Its acronym is SIS,
13 if I remember correctly.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That's the military intelligence department; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, security and intelligence service.
17 Q. We Serbs would say the military intelligence service.
18 A. Very well.
19 Q. I didn't personally obtain this document. You know that I don't
20 have any access to the Croatian archives. The Prosecution provided me
21 with this document. This document shows that the SIS of the Croatian
22 Ministry of Defence participated in preparing you for your testimony in
23 the Mrksic, Sljivancanin, and Radic case.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please turn the page, have a look
25 at the marked page and show that page to Mr. Karlovic. I've turned the
1 corner of the page down so that you can find it.
2 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Please read through the fifth paragraph, the last paragraph at
4 the end, but don't -- read through the last paragraph at the end, section
5 number 5, but don't mention the name of the person who appears after your
6 name because he is a protected witness here and there is no reason for me
7 to mention his name.
8 A. Section 5 at the end?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. "This service participated in preparing the witnesses to confirm
11 the indictment against Mrksic, Radic, and Sljivancanin, and in the case
12 against Dokmanovic." And then there are names, my name --
13 Q. Don't read out the second name, the other names. There's no
14 need. You can see that in a SIS official document they confirm that they
15 participated in preparing you for your testimony in the case against the
16 so-called Vukovar 3; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Perhaps they're lying. I'm not going to go into that now. But
19 what can I do? I have to use the documents that the Prosecution provided
20 me with.
21 A. Well, we didn't find out anything new. These are things that I
22 already said.
23 Q. You are being falsely presented as someone in whose preparation
24 they participated.
25 A. You didn't understand me. I said I never denied this. This is
1 what actually happened.
2 Q. Did they participate in preparing you for your testimony?
3 A. Well, that's what they call it.
4 Q. What do you call it?
5 A. Well, I wasn't -- it wasn't necessary to prepare me. I had to
6 say what happened to me in Vukovar.
7 Q. So they prepared you or proofed you and you didn't take this to
8 be proofing.
9 A. No, I didn't.
10 Q. Very well.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have another document. The
12 number is 0261-2928.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President. I
15 wouldn't interpret the document as proofing, as preparation. I object to
16 the idea that this document demonstrates that it was a matter of
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 Witness, I'm a little lost. I'll tell you why. Initially you
20 were asked whether you had met with the Croatian security services before
21 this case. You said yes, but at the very beginning. That's what I
22 understood, at the very beginning. And then Mr. Seselj asked you again
23 whether you had met with them and you said no, so I thought you met them
24 at the very beginning but not subsequently. And then we have a document
25 that seems to show that -- I'll repeat what I said. Can you hear me now?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll repeat everything.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood everything.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Initially -- I'll summarize
5 this. Initially you said, "I spoke to the security services at the very
6 beginning," and then Mr. Seselj put the question to you again and you
7 said, "No, I haven't seen them since then." And now we have a document
8 that appears, and I underline the fact "appears," appears that to show
9 that you had an interview with them in order to prepare you for the
10 indictment or for the Mrksic case - I don't know what exactly - and I saw
11 the date, the year 1999, in the document. So you must have met these
12 people before 1999.
13 So to clarify everything, in which year did you meet with members
14 of the security service of your country? In which year exactly?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My first answer is something you're
16 not clear about, why I first said yes and then no and then yes. May I
17 first answer that?
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said no, perhaps I
20 misunderstood Mr. Seselj, but when I said no, that no concerned the
21 question as to whether before I came to testify against him, against
22 Mr. Seselj, I had contact of any kind with them and I said no. But I had
23 contact with them in 1996 or 1997. I'm not quite sure of the year. That
24 was the only time I spoke to them and I never spoke to anyone after that
25 date. Is that clear now?
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So I understand you, if I
2 understand you correctly, in the last 10 years you have had -- you
3 haven't had contact of any kind with them.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No contact at all.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] That is in fact what the witness
6 said, and it's on page 66, line 9.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, what would you like
8 to demonstrate?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, I'll move on, and
10 when I finish with this section, you will see what I want to demonstrate.
11 I can't say that in advance.
12 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Karlovic, when testifying in the case of the Vukovar 3,
14 Mrksic, Sljivancanin, and Radic, on the 21st of March, 2006, transcript
15 page 6449, in that case when that question was put to you -- well, the
16 question was: "Who did you give statements to two days before you came
17 to testify in The Hague? To whom specifically?" And your answer was:
18 "To two individuals who worked for that service, and I think one of them
19 was Stjepan Udiljak and I know the other person's name is Tomislav, but I
20 can't remember his surname."
21 Is that what you said?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Very well, Mr. Karlovic. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will now have a look at another
25 document. Would the usher be so kind as to put it on the ELMO. It's
1 also from the SIS of the Ministry of Defence. Let's have a look at the
2 title page first.
3 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You can see that it's an official document from the Croatian
5 Ministry of Defence.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is there any reason for you to doubt the authenticity of this
9 A. Well, look, since it's a copy there are always reasons to doubt,
10 but I don't doubt it.
11 Q. Have a look at the number the Prosecution put on the document in
12 the right-hand corner.
13 A. Very well. I trust you.
14 Q. I received this document from the Prosecution. It's marked as a
15 state secret. Please have a look at the other marked page and have a
16 look at the paragraph that has been marked.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You don't have to put it on the
18 ELMO. We don't want to see the name of the protected witness, the name
19 that appears after Mr. Karlovic's name. Can we see it internally without
20 broadcasting it to the outside? Yes. Just a minute. It's the wrong
21 side. Show the side that I marked.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's possible.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's the page, the part that I
24 have marked with a pen.
25 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Please read through the title and the text, and don't mention the
2 two names that appear after yours.
3 A. "This service participated in proofing the witness to confirm the
4 indictment against Mrksic, Radic, and Sljivancanin and also to prepare
5 the witness for the case against Dokmanovic."
6 Q. And your name appears as the first name?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you return the document to
10 me, please.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Karlovic, I showed you this because I'm convinced that in the
13 case of your testimony in the case against me I believe that you were
14 proofed for your testimony in this case against me in Zagreb. Is that
15 correct? You're denying that?
16 A. I am under oath and I know what the consequences of lying would
17 be. I have no reason to lie, whether you believe me or not.
18 Q. Unfortunately I don't have any proof to show that what you're
19 saying is not correct, but thank you, Mr. Karlovic.
20 I have a few other brief questions. When did you arrive in
22 A. On the 1st of October, between 3 and 4 in the morning in 1991.
23 Q. "Listopad" is what we Serbs say or call October.
24 A. Let's say the tenth month.
25 Q. Very well. As soon as your name was disclosed I started
1 investigating everything I could in relation to you.
2 A. Clearly.
3 Q. Until recently you were listed as a protected witness in my case.
4 Are you aware of that?
5 A. No, I had no idea.
6 Q. Did you ask for protective measures, for a pseudonym and
7 everything else?
8 A. No, I didn't. On the first occasion I did make such a request,
9 but when I realised that the Defence always had to know who was
10 testifying, then protective measures had no sense.
11 Q. The first time was in the Dokmanovic case; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, I think so.
13 Q. And at no point in time in the case against me did you require
14 protective measures. Can you confirm this?
15 A. Yes, I can. I never requested protective measures.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a serious
18 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Is there any way in which I could threaten you if I wanted to,
20 even if I wanted to?
21 A. There is always a way.
22 Q. But it's a case of science fiction in this case.
23 A. Well, you personally can't threaten me or present a danger to me,
24 but there's always a way.
25 Q. Very well. But at any point in time did you fear testifying in
1 the case against me?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Why do you think some other Croats called by the Prosecution as
4 witnesses in this case, why do you think these other witnesses testified
5 with the benefit of protective measures?
6 A. I don't know.
7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I object. The witness is being
8 asked to speculate.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Witness, without speculating, fear is perhaps something one can
11 quantify, and the question put to you was whether you were afraid at any
12 point in time and you said no, never.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't afraid.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you testified in Belgrade,
15 in the Kameni et al case, there were no problems. You arrived in
16 Belgrade, you went to the court, and then you left. Everything went
17 smoothly, or were there any problems?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The court offered me protection.
19 Their security service took charge of me at the border, their police. I
20 was returned to the border in the same way and I had absolutely no
21 problems. Naturally I didn't go to Belgrade in my own vehicle. I didn't
22 go to the trial in Belgrade in my own vehicle.
23 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Were you placed in a hotel?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were you able to walk around freely in Belgrade?
2 A. I had someone who protected me all the time.
3 Q. One person?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you walked around freely in the town?
6 A. No, I didn't walk around because I arrived in the evening, I
7 testified in the morning, and I returned immediately.
8 Q. My last question was whether you believed that there was a reason
9 for other Croats who were victims in Ovcara, other Croats who saved their
10 lives by chance just like you. You know them some of them, don't mention
11 their names. Do you believe there is any reason for them to ask for
12 protective measures when testifying in this case?
13 A. Well, look, Mr. Seselj, fear is a subjective matter. Isn't that
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Aren't new witnesses -- someone may feel afraid; others perhaps
17 not. I surrendered my life to God a long time ago so --
18 Q. But I'm asking you about objective reasons. Are there any
19 objective reasons for such witnesses to be afraid of testifying without
20 having the benefit of protective measures?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Mr. Karlovic, do you know that before your arrival in Vukovar,
23 that while you stayed in Vukovar, a number of crimes were committed
24 against Serbian civilians.
25 A. I know nothing about that.
1 Q. You know nothing.
2 A. No.
3 Q. As soon as I was told about your name as a protective witness, do
4 you believe me when I say that I first checked to see whether you were on
5 a list of criminals?
6 A. I believe you did everything to discredit me.
7 Q. And I can tell you quite frankly that you aren't on the list of
8 criminals that I have, and I will show you the list that I have obtained.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you be so kind as to put this
10 document --
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wonder what the
12 relevance of this is in this case and whether it can help to clarify
13 certain issues for the Court.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, how will the
15 document you want to show help us? Why is it relevant, useful? And if
16 you have such a document, where was it obtained from? Can you provide us
17 with any information? Because everyone can get hold of a piece of paper
18 and put down the names of alleged criminals without any grounds. So if
19 you have a document, it must be some sort of official document, a
20 document obtained from the police or the judiciary. So could you answer
21 my question?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will give you my
23 answers in the order of your questions.
24 You know that my thesis of defence is that the head of the
25 security service of the JNA, General Vasiljevic, ordered the liquidation
1 of Croatian prisoners of war at Ovcara. Another thesis of my defence is
2 that it was not difficult to find the actual perpetrators, the direct
3 perpetrators, and that they were found among frustrated individuals,
4 mostly locals of Vukovar whose closest relatives may have been killed,
5 because the terror over the Serb population of Vukovar lasted for months.
6 So it was not difficult to identify the direct perpetrators.
7 And presenting data on crimes against Serbs is not a way of
8 discrediting this witness. I have no reason to discredit this witness.
9 There's only one statement that I find problematic and that is that he
10 heard my voice on the loudspeaker, a call for surrender. Then later on
11 he adjusted this statement and said that the voice was similar to mine,
12 and there is nothing in his statement that would indict me.
13 But I wish to logically conclude his testimony in an effort to
14 explain the nature of the crimes in Ovcara to show certain facts which
15 indicate that there was a certain number of people among the TO members
16 who had reason for personal revenge, and such individuals among the
17 volunteers could not have existed because their relatives were not living
18 in Vukovar.
19 And if I may be allowed, I would like to show this list which was
20 published by the newspaper Ekspres Politika on the 18th of March, 1997,
21 listing the names of all Croats who took part in the crimes against
22 Serbs, and then I would ask the witness whether he knows two, four, six,
23 eight, ten persons on this list. And if he says yes or no, that would be
24 the end of it. Allow me to put this question to him.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand well, it's an
1 article in a newspaper dated the 18th of March, 1997, which listed names
2 of Croats who took part in crimes committed against Serbs. That is my
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And then I'll show you the official
7 document, too. I have the official document on me.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. Before
9 giving you the floor, it's an article in the press, in the public media.
10 What is the objection?
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know what
12 is the relevance and the use of this article, and it has defamatory
13 statements against individuals. I would be a bit embarrassed for us to
14 read such information.
15 Furthermore, the witness is not from Vukovar, he comes from
16 elsewhere, and he is not in my opinion the appropriate person to whom
17 this kind of evidence should be shown.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Prosecutor is
19 making an objection, feeling that this witness is not a good witness for
20 confirming or denying your document. If there are names, they may be
21 people he knows, whether they are Croats who were on the spot in Vukovar,
22 whether they were people who were in Vukovar. If so there's a link; if
23 not there's no link. Can you tell me whether names of Croats on that
24 list are Croats from Vukovar?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am surprised by
1 this question. Why would all of them have to be Croats from Vukovar?
2 Some of them may not be from Vukovar. How should I know? This list was
3 made public, and the heading is "They Committed Crimes against Serbs in
4 Vukovar and the surroundings." I have marked 10 names and I wish to ask
5 the witness whether he knows these people. There is an accompanying
6 text. It doesn't affect the witness in any way. It doesn't affect his
7 credibility. I am satisfied with his testimony.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am going to consult my
9 colleagues whether they are for or against. I don't wish to conceal
10 anything. I am for, but if my colleagues are against, they will tell us.
11 In that case it will not be shown. So I am going to consult with my
12 colleagues to see what their position is.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have seen the views of my
15 colleagues. They are against, I am for, but they are in a majority so,
16 Mr. Seselj, you cannot use this document. But I would like to add, and I
17 think the Chamber is unanimous in that respect, you will have an
18 opportunity to use this document when you bring your own witnesses to
19 court which will have a direct link to this document.
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Maybe even with another of the
21 witnesses of the Prosecution.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is for the present the only
23 Prosecution witness for the base-crime -- as a crime-base witness for the
24 crimes in Vukovar, so I have no one else to put this question to, because
25 those coming under 92 ter I will have nothing to do with them.
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] It's us who will put the
2 question to them in that case.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have another 30
4 minutes left.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I expected you to ask questions, as
6 Mrs. Lattanzi.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. Wait a moment. I'll give
8 her the floor if she wished to intervene.
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No. Only to say that I regret
10 Mr. Seselj didn't understand me. I was saying that if a witness comes
11 under 92 ter and there will be relevant questions to put to him, you
12 refuse to cross-examine them, then it will be the Judges who put
13 questions, relevant questions, to those witnesses.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, concerning the
15 witnesses envisaged for Vukovar, I have numbers that I wish to quote: 2,
16 4, 9, 12, 14, 16, 30, 34, 35, 36, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46. So
17 there's a whole series of witnesses appearing on the list, so there will
18 certainly be some other viva voce witnesses. So maybe you will have the
19 opportunity to introduce this document. Even if that will not be
20 possible, you will always be able to produce this document through your
21 own witnesses.
22 I was in favour in the spirit of saving time and being effective,
23 but the matter is closed and you still have 30 minutes.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As you have not allowed me to
25 question this witness -- to cross-examine this witness about his
1 knowledge about people who committed crimes against Serbian -- against
2 Serbs, I refuse to continue the cross-examination of this witness.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, the
4 accused doesn't wish to ask you any more questions.
5 I have a question, an important question, to put to you which
6 remained in the dark. The Prosecution didn't ask you this. Perhaps
7 Mr. Seselj would have asked you, but I don't know.
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You indicated that after you
10 were saved, in a sense, from the carpentry shop you were taken to a
11 civilian prison in Mitrovica, and you said that you were released on the
12 22nd of May, 1992, within a prisoner exchange. What I would like to know
13 is the following: In Serbia, but that applies to all countries in the
14 world, when someone is put in prison there's a document. People are not
15 put in prison without a document. When you yourself were put in that
16 prison, as far as you know was there a document imprisoning you? Did you
17 meet a lawyer? Did you have an investigating judge talk to you? What
18 happened during the months when you were held in that prison?
19 A. At first, for the first two months I was in prison without really
20 existing at all. I wasn't registered by the Red Cross or any -- or by
21 any other form or document as proof that I was there. I was registered
22 within the framework of the examinations conducted by -- interrogations
23 by JNA officers, and my name and surname was there, and they even took
24 our photographs.
25 On the 22nd -- 26th of January, 1992, I was registered for the
1 first time through the Red Cross and from then on it was known that I
2 existed as a prisoner.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You say that you were
4 interrogated by JNA officers. Were they officers belonging to the
5 military police or not?
6 A. I can't say. I don't know. They wore different uniforms so I
7 have no idea.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when you met the Red Cross,
9 did they ask you why you were there?
10 A. No, they didn't ask. There were a lot of us and the reason was
11 known why we were there. I personally was not asked that question.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it would appear that during
13 these interrogations you were beaten; is that true or false?
14 A. Yes, it's true.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What did they want you to say?
16 Did they want to accuse you of crimes? Why were these interrogations
18 A. It wasn't my understanding that they wanted to accuse me of a
19 crime. They put standard questions. They were interested in the
20 situation in Vukovar. And several times I didn't know why they hit me.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I may, I should like to take
22 a step back. When you arrived in Vukovar, at the time your country,
23 Croatia, was it an independent country, recognised by the international
24 community, or was it a self-proclaimed independent country? Were you
25 familiar with the exact situation at the time.
1 A. The Croatian assembly proclaimed secession from Yugoslavia and
2 proclaimed its independence. It was internationally recognised by some
3 before the 15th of January, but I know that as of the 15th of January,
4 1992, it was internationally recognised.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. During the battle
6 for Vukovar, Vukovar belonged, in your view, to ex-Yugoslavia or not, or
7 to Croatia.
8 A. It was an absolutely Croatian town, part of Croatia.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It was a Croatian town which
10 belonged to ex-Yugoslavia or to Croatia? I'm referring to November 1991.
11 A. It was a Croatian town.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, but to an autonomous
13 Croatian state or to an independent state of Croatia, in your view.
14 A. I'm talking about Croatia as an independent state, whose assembly
15 had proclaimed independence. And we know how assembly members are
16 elected by the population's vote.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but did you know that the
18 international community did not recognise your country until January
20 A. Yes, but it did recognise it.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but in January 1992.
22 A. This, to me, does not seem to be important. I apologise if I'm
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When JNA officers interrogated
25 you in the prison, you're telling me that they wanted to know what
1 happened in Vukovar. Were they the only questions they put to you or did
2 they ask you other things as well.
3 A. When I say that, I mean a whole series of questions, starting
4 from, Where do you come from, what were you doing there, what unit did
5 you belong to, where did you fight. This complex set of questions, not
6 just one simple question.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm asking you this because
8 another witness told us that he was charged of rebellion. So these
9 officers, did they accuse you of rebelling against the state, that is,
10 ex-Yugoslavia, or not? Was this part of the questions put to you within
11 the interrogation.
12 A. No one accused me, but there was that kind of attitude towards
13 us, that we are rebels, that we are paramilitary troops. That was their
14 position with respect to us. But no one actually charged me with
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're confirming that you
17 didn't see any judge or any military prosecutor.
18 A. At least no such person introduced himself as such. I saw
19 officers. Whether they were military prosecutors, military judges, or
20 something else, I don't know. It wasn't their custom to introduce
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm going to ask my
23 colleagues whether they have any questions for you.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The Red Cross staff, did they
25 question you about the treatment you were given.
1 A. I don't remember that.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any
4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have some questions.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Maybe we shall have a break and
6 we can do that after the break. We'll have a 20-minute break now.
7 --- Recess taken at 11.42 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.01 p.m.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now for the
10 re-examination for the Prosecution.
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Re-examination by Mr. Dutertre:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Karlovic, page 14 of the transcript is where
14 you answered a question put to you by Mr. Seselj, and you said: [In
15 English] "I don't know who was against us and opposite us in those
17 [Interpretation] You were referring to the enemy. My question is
18 as follows: In Vukovar you had to deal with the JNA, the TO, and the
19 Chetniks; isn't that correct?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Why are you allowing leading
22 questions of this kind, Mr. President? That's not allowed even in
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution is referring to
25 page 14, which is where the witness answered a question that you put to
1 him, so when conducting his re-examination he has the right to refer to
2 your questions and to the answers. He is asking the witness whether in
3 his opinion the JNA, the Chetniks, and the TO were present in Vukovar.
4 He's asking him whether this is correct or not. This is what he could
5 have said, too. The witness said, "Yes, that's correct." So there you
6 have it. I don't see what makes this a leading question. And the Judges
7 also dealt with this question on a number of occasions and the witness
8 said -- or he always answered in the same way.
9 The Prosecution may continue.
10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Mr. Karlovic, when you were in Vukovar in 1991, did you see any
12 regular JNA soldiers wearing the Chetnik fur cap?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And during the same period in 1991, when you were in Vukovar, did
15 you see any soldiers, any Chetnik soldiers who -- their hair was cut and
16 it looked like the way JNA soldiers had their hair?
17 A. No, I didn't see any soldiers like that.
18 Q. In relation to the Territorial Defence, well, how were they
19 dressed usually? Was it like the JNA or were they dressed like the
20 Chetniks? What did they usually look like? How were they usually
22 A. Well, it was very similar to the regular JNA soldiers, except for
23 the fact that it had Serb flags.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you have added
1 something that appears for the first time here. The Prosecution asked
2 you whether you made a distinction between JNA soldiers and members of
3 the Territorial Defence and you said they resembled each other, but you
4 added that this wasn't the case for the flags. The Territorial Defence
5 had flags; the JNA had its own flag. Try and explain this flag issue for
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm speaking on the basis of what I
8 know and my opinion and awareness. The territorials used as an insignia
9 the Serb flag, and they had a uniform that was fairly similar to that of
10 the JNA.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But they had a Serbian flag
12 when engaged in combat? Because when you were arrested, apart from the
13 flag that we saw, we didn't see any others. You're telling us what you
14 know about, but did you find out about this subsequently or was it in
15 Vukovar that you saw such flags?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw both Serb flags and Yugoslav
17 flags. That's what I saw when I was captured, especially when we passed
18 through certain parts of town where they moved around and where they were
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What's good about putting
21 questions is that one always find out new information. So here we have a
22 new flag appearing. Who had Yugoslav flags?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I mostly saw that flag on the
24 APCs and tanks, while the Serb flags were ones that they carried with
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So I assume that the JNA tanks
2 had Yugoslav flags on them, whereas the soldiers could have Serbian flags
3 with them. That's what you're saying. Very well.
4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could clarify
6 Q. Mr. Karlovic, when you say "flags," are you referring to
7 normal-sized flags or small flags sewn onto to the clothes of the men?
8 I'm referring to the flags that were borne by these various individuals?
9 A. Well, I am thinking of a flag that is unfolded and also the
10 markings that are on the uniform.
11 Q. I understand. To be more specific, the Territorial Defence had
12 flags, perhaps on their uniforms, and these flags represented what
13 exactly? Was it a Yugoslav army flag? Was it a Serbian flag? Could you
14 be more precise?
15 A. The Serbian flag.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.
18 Witness, I'll put a question to you. Perhaps you won't be able
19 to answer it because it's a complex question and it has legal
20 connotations, it has a legal aspect, but we never know. We are
21 discussing the Territorial Defence in Vukovar. If I've understood things
22 correctly, I was looking at the map this morning and Vukovar is in
23 Croatia, and we have Serbia on the other side, because the river marks
24 the border in a certain sense and we have seen a map of this area.
25 So if Croatia is on one side and we have Vukovar then on the
1 other side and we have Serbia, the Vukovar Territorial Defence represents
2 what exactly? Is it the Territorial Defence of Croatian Vukovar or is it
3 the Territorial Defence of Vukovar but the Serbian Territorial Defence of
4 Vukovar? Because at the time the former Yugoslavia still existed and you
5 seem to be confirming this when you say that the tanks had Yugoslav flags
6 on them. So could you clarify this matter that concerns the Territorial
7 Defence? If not, it's not that important.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Territorial Defence was the
9 term that was used, and it was what they called themselves. Now, as far
10 as that Territorial Defence, it had some other, how shall I put this,
11 deeper roots, its source who compiled the Territorial Defence, who was
12 part of it. So do you want me to go into that whole question? I don't
13 know. Anyway, the Territorial Defence is what they called themselves, so
14 that's why we used the term in order to make a better distinction.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have understood your answer.
16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would just like to clarify
17 something. Page 87, lines 8 and 9, I'm wondering whether the Chetniks
18 had the same appearance in the uniforms as JNA soldiers. In the English
19 version I can't see this reference to the uniforms. I wanted to mention
21 I'd now like to show the witness a document that has to do with a
22 lengthy discussion that he had with Mr. Seselj about an elderly gentleman
23 with a walking stick. I have some copies for the Defence, for the
24 Chamber, and for the witness. This is a document in B/C/S. I don't have
25 the translation yet, but we should be receiving the interpreter's
1 interpretation. Could we put it on the ELMO, please.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is the document relevant?
3 Where is it from, et cetera?
4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The document was found on an
5 Internet site. You can see the reference on the top of the document.
6 It's from the New Agency for Croatia, and the date is 20th of February,
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you forbade me to
9 use newspaper articles, whereas you're allowing the Prosecutor to do --
10 use Internet articles, and I assume that the newspaper articles are more
11 reliable because you know who the editor is rather than something put on
12 the Internet and you can't get at the source at all. And here I
13 recognise such an amazing piece of stupidity that on this photograph we
14 can see Captain Radic, whereas on the photograph there's no Captain
15 Radic. You see the kind of dupes that are being presented here.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as two measures are
17 concerned, I'd like to remind you that the Chamber didn't allow you to
18 use a document, a press article, because the names of incriminated Croats
19 were mentioned in the article and the Chamber decided by majority not to
20 allow you to use this newspaper article. However, we did point out that
21 you would be able to use it through your own witnesses when the time came
22 for that. That's what we decided and we would like to remind you of
24 The Chamber doesn't want to prevent you from doing anything, but
25 whenever we have a document we have to check whether it's a relevant
1 document - that's the first thing - and secondly we have to check to see
2 whether the document is prejudicial to certain individuals, individuals
3 who might be called to testify, and then thirdly we have to see whether
4 the document has probative value of any kind.
5 In the document that I have before me today, well, there is a
6 photograph of someone - I don't know who this is, but the Prosecution
7 will perhaps tell us - but as far as relevance is concerned, yes, there
8 is relevance because we have the photograph of someone that we saw in
9 another photograph. It's taken from a different angle, but we can
10 recognise the gentleman with the walking stick. We can recognise the
11 gentleman with the cap and there are other soldiers there and there's
12 another individual. This is a well-known photograph. I don't know why
13 the Prosecution wants to use this photograph, but we have to listen to
14 the question he is going to put.
15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could the witness
16 first read through this document. It's a fairly short document. And
17 then I will put my question to the witness. Could he read it out slowly
18 so that the interpreters can interpret?
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a problem. I, first of
20 all, wanted to say that as far as the preceding decision is concerned, my
21 problem is that -- well, my problem is the link to the witness and the
22 question of relevance, and I have the same problem here. So before we
23 have the witness read out the document, I would like the Prosecution to
24 explain what relevance this document has and in what way this document
25 concerns the witness.
1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Judge Lattanzi, this article
2 concerns the gentleman we can see with the walking stick. It concerns
3 what happened to him. We have his name that appears in the document. We
4 can see what happened to him. And it has to do with consequences for
5 another person in the photograph. Legally speaking, this person had to
6 answer for his acts, and it's possible with regard to the witness that
7 the witness was familiar with the trial that resulted in this article in
8 the New Agency, so I would like to have him some questions about this.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I have understood this
10 correctly, well, the Chamber is concerned with the issue of links. And
11 the gentleman with the walking stick, well, Mr. Seselj told us a while
12 ago that this gentleman must have been in a basement. He came out of the
13 basement and he was then escorted somewhere so that he could be taken
14 care of, or something like that. That's Mr. Seselj's version. And on
15 that basis -- well, you say that that is false because the document says
16 the opposite. That's how I have understood the matter. Yes, do answer
17 the question.
18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would not want to testify myself
19 and tell you what is true or false. We have a newspaper article that has
20 to do with legal proceedings conducted after what had happened to this
21 gentleman with the walking stick. And as a result of what happened to
22 this gentleman with the walking stick, one of the individuals in the
23 photograph was prosecuted. There was a public trial and I would like to
24 know what the witness knows about this, because he was interviewed at
25 length -- he was questioned at length by Mr. Seselj about this matter and
1 I believe that this is a good base, or this provides good grounds to
2 return to this issue with the witness.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: If I am not mistaken, I think this photo was
4 first shown in order to elicit from the witness his recognition of
5 various agents in the conflict, notably the issue of the gentleman with
6 the fur bonnet and the insignia and the cockade, in that bonnet, and the
7 also the possible sign on the top of the two helmets of the gentlemen who
8 were waring helmets. The issue of the old man was really a completely
9 non-relevant issue, and if your exhibit here is now to pursue that story,
10 I think it's completely irrelevant. So I would join Judge Lattanzi in
11 saying that this is not relevant.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.
13 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would just like to clarify
14 something. Mr. Seselj made a certain number of claims about the person
15 in the centre of the photograph. It's important for what happened in
16 Vukovar in general and I'm just going back to allegations made by
17 Mr. Seselj himself.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber will deliberate to
19 see whether we will authorise you or allow you to use this document or
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Chamber has
23 discussed the matter and we will not allow the Prosecution to use the
24 document, given that we believe that it is not relevant in relation to
25 the original use of the photograph which had to do with the cockade caps.
1 Could the Prosecution please move on.
2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I don't
3 know whether the witness has read the document in the meantime. If he
4 has, maybe I'll ask him some questions.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Don't ask him any questions
6 about the person with the walking stick.
7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'll move on to something
8 completely different, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Karlovic, you said that in this room in Modateks there were
10 about 20 Chetniks, and then there were some individuals who came to save
11 you from the situation you were in. Could you tell us, can you claim for
12 certainty what their real reasons were, apart from what they said, but
13 what were their real reasons for coming to save you?
14 A. Well, quite simply I think that that's what those people were
15 like. That was their character. They didn't allow massacres and torture
16 and killing. That's the kind of people they were. And I know that Mare
17 said he that he was a Serb who believed in God, so that's it. I can't go
18 into any deeper motivation or reasons.
19 Q. Thank you. What direct personal knowledge do you have about what
20 they had done previously or prior to the period you had contact with them
21 and after the period you had contact with them, after they had got you
22 out of that house?
23 A. Well, I don't have that knowledge.
24 Q. Thank you. You said after you left the house you were taken to
25 Velepromet; you were treated there. You said that you had been tortured
1 and beaten. Given the physical state you were in, could you see on the
2 faces of these two individuals who had saved you whether they had been
3 involved in reprehensible acts before? Were you in a position to make
4 such observations?
5 A. Well, I didn't have an opportunity to see that, nor could I know
6 what they were doing before.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to notice
8 that the Prosecution here is conducting the cross-examination now and
9 trying to challenge his own witness, it seems. Well, that's something I
10 noticed and you do with it what you will.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. In the course of your
12 re-examination -- well, first of all, you should establish a basis, you
13 should remind the witness of the question put to him by the accused, and
14 then you can go back to the answer provided to the question.
15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I wanted to save time, but as far
16 as I can remember the accused asked whether there appeared to be
17 individuals who had been involved in certain acts the day before and then
18 did acts of a different nature later on. I don't have the transcript
19 before me. I was trying to be brief, but it did have a relation to a
20 question put by the accused.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please put your question to the
22 witness again.
23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I think he has answered the
24 question, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What was the beginning?
1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
2 Q. The accused asked you whether these individuals might have
3 appeared as individuals who had perhaps committed reprehensible acts the
4 day before and then saved you subsequently. So my question is whether
5 your physical condition was such that you were capable of forming an
6 opinion about such a matter.
7 A. Well, it's like this: I made my assessment. In view of their
8 character and how they saved me, I do believe that they weren't people
9 who could kill in cold blood. That's my opinion. But I could not
10 recognise who they belonged to, what they did, what unit they belonged
11 to. I wasn't able to recognise or notice that. So it is my opinion that
12 since they saved me, saved my life, I'm wondering whether they were
13 people who could have committed murders in cold blood. I hope I've made
14 myself clear.
15 Q. That's clear. When you were in the hospital, then the barracks,
16 the JNA barracks, and then Ovcara, did you see or hear Chetniks or other
17 soldiers who were present and did you see them recognising some of the
18 prisoners as prisoners who had been at the front line, some of the
19 prisoners as having participated in combat? Did they identify any
20 prisoners in this way?
21 A. Well, that could be noticed most at Ovcara. There was that at
22 Ovcara. Now, as to the hospital, I can't remember. As to the barracks,
23 I don't remember. I know that people were recognised at Ovcara mostly.
24 Q. I understand. And one last matter that I would like to clarify.
25 The accused showed you a number of documents that concerned an interview
1 with the military security service, and there was a quote from a
2 transcript from the Mrksic case, and you talked about contact two days
3 before you came to testify at the Tribunal. I wasn't sure I understood
4 this correctly. I wanted to clarify the matter because the quote was out
5 of context. So what I would like to know is the following: When you
6 said, "Yes, we had contact two days before I came to testify here," when
7 you said that, were you referring to your testimony in 1996 or were you
8 referring to your testimony before the Tribunal in 2006?
9 A. If I might be allowed to put you right on one point so that we
10 can understand this, the document was mostly written in general terms.
11 Perhaps I was wrong, but I didn't see that it was strictly stated
12 anywhere that two days before the arrival to the Mrksic case I was
13 prepared or proofed. So can we take a look at that again, but I don't
14 think that I saw that anywhere, that Vilim Karlovic was proofed two days
15 before arriving to take part in those proceedings.
16 They are general documents where the service gave its reports,
17 and between 1996 to 1998, sometime during that period, that's when it
18 was. And I never ever had any conversations with anybody from the
19 Croatian Intelligence Services after that, and nobody except my family in
20 fact knows that I am here.
21 Q. In any event, this occurred on one occasion and only in 1996?
22 That is what I want to find out.
23 A. Yes, yes, because I have no reason why I wouldn't say it if it
24 happened again. If it did, I would have said. But it didn't, so no.
25 Q. Very well.
1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I have no other questions,
2 Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So if none of the
4 Judges has any questions for the witness, I would like to thank the
5 witness for having come to testify in The Hague and I wish you a safe
6 trip home. I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you to all of you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm addressing the Prosecution
11 now. Is the following witness ready?
12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Yes. The Prosecution
13 calls Dragutin Berghofer, and my colleague, Mr. Ferrara, will be leading
14 this witness pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber would like to greet
16 Mr. Ferrara, who is appearing for the first time before this Chamber.
17 MR. FERRARA: Yes, Your Honour, the first time. I joined the
18 Office of the Prosecutor in October 2007, and it's first time for me
19 before the Trial Chamber.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to remind you that we
21 said that the Prosecution would have 30 minutes at its disposal for this
22 witness, and Mr. Seselj will have an hour and a half for his
23 cross-examination, if he wishes to cross-examine the witness.
24 Mr. Ferrara, according to the 92 ter procedure, you have to give
25 us a brief summary of the written statement, once the witness is in the
1 courtroom. We need to have the witness in the courtroom. A minute ago I
2 was told that he had disappeared. I hope that we have found him now.
3 MR. FERRARA: Yes, we found him later.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The usher says no.
5 [In English] The witness, no?
6 [Interpretation] The witness has disappeared yet again.
7 Mr. Mundis.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I was informed about 20
9 minutes ago that the witness was on his way here. So I'm not sure which
10 hotel he's staying in and how long it will take him to get here. We can
11 either take a brief adjournment, or we can simply call the witness
12 tomorrow morning. We're at the disposal of the Chamber. And of course
13 perhaps Mr. Registrar has --
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll confer.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] According to the latest
17 information, he is in the building and on his way. But we must still
18 make sure that he comes to the right courtroom.
19 I take advantage to check with Mr. Seselj and for him to confirm
20 that he still does not wish to cross-examine this witness.
21 Mr. Seselj.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will never agree to cross-examine
23 any witness under 92 ter, bis, and quater, and no witness who is
24 testifying via videolink.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. If there is nothing
2 further on that point, perhaps while we're waiting for the witness to
3 arrive, I could take this opportunity to raise one other issue if I
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. On the 7th of March, 2008, the
7 Prosecution filed a motion to return 10 exhibits to the 65 ter list.
8 That filing contained a confidential annex listing these documents.
9 The second document in that table, the B/C/S version bearing ERN
10 0094-9847-0094-9852, already appears on the current 65 ter list as number
11 1523. Upon reviewing this filing, it appears that the same document was
12 on our previous exhibit list twice, the old numbers being 1585 and 1339,
13 and that the 65 ter number -- the old 65 ter number 1595 that appeared in
14 the first Rule 94(B) motion was deleted as a duplicate from the
15 recapitulated list of exhibits.
16 Current 65 ter number 1523, bearing the exhibit -- the ERN number
17 that I just mentioned, does not need to be added to the current exhibit
18 list. Nevertheless, the Prosecution requests the Chamber to consider
19 this document with the 94(B) motion that was filed earlier.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have taken note
21 of this and the Chamber will render a decision after having heard the
22 observations of the Defence.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mundis, in the French translation the number
24 that you referred to, the 65 ter number that you referred to in line 1 on
25 page 101 came out as 1923, so I just want to ensure that what is now in
1 the transcript is the correct number. It says 1523.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Judge Harhoff. It is indeed -- the
3 numbers as appearing on the English transcript are in fact correct.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. Let me
7 check first that you can hear the translation of what I'm saying in your
8 own language. Could you please give me your first and last name and date
9 of birth.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragutin Berghofer. Date of birth,
11 29th of October, 1940, born in Osijek.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have a profession or an
13 occupation or are you retired?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am retired.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified in a
16 court of law about the events that took place in ex-Yugoslavia, and if so
17 in which court of law?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have, Your Honour. This is my
19 fourth time to come here. I have testified three times previously.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. You have already
21 testified three times. If you recall, can you tell me in which cases you
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the first time it was for
24 Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic, that was twice in that case, and once for
25 Mr. Seselj -- no, sorry, Mr. Sljivancanin. I beg your pardon.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And on the three
2 occasions that you came, was it at the request of the Prosecution? Were
3 you a witness for the Prosecution?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was a witness.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Will you please
6 read the solemn declaration.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: DRAGUTIN BERGHOFER
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you sir, you may be
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A few brief explanations from
15 me. As this is the fourth time you are, you know how we function but
16 perhaps not within the framework of this particular proceeding under 92
17 ter. You will be answering a few brief questions put to you by
18 Mr. Ferrara, whom you have met, and for this we envisage a half an hour.
19 At the end of this period it would be normal for the accused to
20 cross-examine you, but he has told us that he will not cross-examine you.
21 Possibly the Judges who are in front of you may be asking you questions.
22 So I now give the floor to Mr. Ferrara, who is going to first of
23 all make a brief summary of your statement.
24 MR. FERRARA: Thank you.
25 The witness lived in Dragutin Berghofer Vukovar since he was six
1 years old and until the day of the fall of the town in November 1991. He
2 was a businessman --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's apologies. We cannot interpret
4 at this speed, thank you, and we don't have the text.
5 MR. FERRARA: I have only paper text but I can provide ...
6 He was an entrepreneur. He owned five shops and many houses in
7 Vukovar. He was divorced with two daughters. Vesna was 17 years old and
8 Jasna was 26 years old at the time, and he was living with a woman called
10 On the 24th of August, 1991, the war in Vukovar burst out and in
11 three months he lost everything. The same day the war started, his house
12 was destroyed, shot by a JNA tank, and he was forced to live in a
13 basement with more than 40 people until the takeover of the town.
14 On the 15th of September, 1991, his daughter Vesna was taken away
15 to Negoslavci by soldiers of the JNA who were cleaning the area.
16 Eventually discovered that after the fall of Vukovar, she was brought
17 back to her home, but around the 10th of December, 1991, his daughter was
18 taken away again by some locals who turned her to the Serbian side. And
19 in 2000 or 2001, her body was discovered in the Vukovar cemetery.
20 On the 6th of November, 1991, his partner Ljubica was killed
21 during a shelling when a piece of shrapnel hit her in the neck. When the
22 war started Mr. Berghofer joined the Vukovar defence, and in fact he was
23 later recognised as a member of the ZNG. He was not a combatant, but he
24 was in charge of food, supplies, and logistics, for the people who lived
25 in the basement in the town.
1 On 17th November, 1991, Mr. Berghofer led a column of more than
2 300 people for a breakthrough, but soon he realised that it was
3 impossible to leave the town due to heavy shelling by the JNA and the
4 minefields set up around the city, so he decided to come back to the
6 Meanwhile, the people that were capable of walking had gone to
7 the hospital, as the Serb forces told them on loudspeakers, that if they
8 gone there they could wait for the convoy to take them to Zagreb -- to
9 Zagreb. He found the situation of total chaos at the hospital. People
10 were crying in the corridors and the wounded were up to three in a bed.
11 He stayed there three nights and he fed himself with milk powder for
13 At about 4 p.m. on 19th November, 1991, reserve soldiers and
14 members of the JNA entered the compound and the hospital premises.
15 During the same time Mr. Berghofer -- during the same night, sorry,
16 Mr. Berghofer heard the sound of 18 gunshots being fired and the sound of
17 buses and trucks which started the evacuation of the hospital.
18 The morning of the 19th of November, 1991, the witness with other
19 people was searched, boarded in a bus, and taken to the JNA barracks.
20 The detainees were made to stay on the bus for about four hours, and all
21 around people dressed with different kind of uniform and in civilian
22 clothes, with long beards and unkempt, walked around the bus celebrating
23 their victory, screaming, cursing, insulting, and threatening the
24 detainees, and also showing them weapons, such as long rifles and knives.
25 More than 15 people were taken off by the bus, kicked, and beaten
1 ferociously and loaded into military buses and driven off towards
2 Negoslavci. Later when the witness found them -- found these people at
3 Ovcara, their heads were all swollen up and they were entirely covered in
5 At about 1 p.m. on the 20th of November, the bus left the
6 barracks toward Ovcara Farm. There the detainees were searched again,
7 stripped off their belongings, and forced to enter the hangar to a
8 gauntlet formed by a number of armed Serbian men wearing different types
9 of uniforms and civilian clothes who beat and kicked severely them with
10 everything they had - iron bar, rifles, large pieces of wood, fists,
12 There the witness saw that Milos Bulic, known as Bulidza, beat
13 Damjan Samardzic, nicknamed the "Big Boiler," with a baseball bat, and
14 afterwards he did not show any sign of life. He saw also that Gaspar FNU
15 and another man were beaten to death upon arrival at the hangar. Inside
16 the hangar the witness saw a miserable atmosphere, with people screaming,
17 beatings, yelling, trampling on people, hitting them with iron rods, and
18 rifle butts. In the middle of the hangar there were a mix of straw and
20 Inside the hangar he saw the reporter, Sinisa Glavasevic, beaten
21 to death and another man, Vladimir Djukic, brutally beaten with his very
22 own crutch. Later the witness was separated with other people, put into
23 a small van to be taken to Velepromet, where there was no space. So he
24 was brought to Modateks factory where he spent the night. There he was
25 beaten, assaulted and interrogated.
1 The next morning he was brought to Velepromet where he entered
2 the so-called "Room of Death" and there he saw a lot of his acquaintances
3 beaten and taken away. Rene Matausek, the son of Dzemo, Crk, Golac, and
4 Tihomir Perkovic. Mr. Berghofer hasn't seen them again.
5 He was saved by a JNA captain who took him to the JNA barracks
6 just before midnight on the 21st of November. Later he was imprisoned
7 for four and a half months at Sremska Mitrovica, and on the 27th of March
8 1992 he was exchanged.
9 That would conclude the summary, Your Honours.
10 Examination by Mr. Ferrara:
11 Q. Before we discuss the exhibits, Mr. Berghofer, did you meet with
12 a representative of the OTP on March, 6 March, 2008?
13 A. Yes, I did, Your Honours.
14 Q. Did you provide a statement to those representatives about what
15 happened to you and other people in 1991 in Vukovar?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review your written statement in
18 your language?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Which is your language?
21 A. Croatian.
22 MR. FERRARA: Now, Mr. Registrar, if we can call up for -- the
23 document 65 ter number 7178. Sorry, Your Honour, the number is 7183.
24 It's the 92 statement of the witness Dragutin Berghofer.
25 Q. Witness, looking at the first page, does the first page bear your
2 A. Yes, it does.
3 Q. And if you could flip through those other pages, do those other
4 pages, at the bottom, bear your initials?
5 A. I can't see them. I only see it where the list of victims from
6 Ovcara are. No, no.
7 MR. FERRARA: Ms. Usher, if you can show.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are initials.
9 MR. FERRARA:
10 Q. Yes. So do you recognise your initials at the bottom of the
12 A. Well, yes, I recognise them.
13 Q. Does this document reflect the date on which you signed it?
14 A. Yes. It was on the 6th of this month.
15 Q. Does this statement accurately reflect your recollection of the
16 events described herein?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I proceed? Here and there,
19 there may be one or two words that could be slightly changed to the left
20 or the right, but otherwise everything is all right.
21 MR. FERRARA: Your Honour, we would move for the admission of
22 this document, 65 ter number 7183, into exhibit.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we have an
24 exhibit number, please?
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P278, Your Honours.
1 MR. FERRARA: Please, Mr. Registrar, can you call up the 65 ter
2 number 7178, should be -- there's some problem ...
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute.
4 Witness, you said at a certain point when the Prosecutor asked
5 you whether the document is in conformity with what you said, you said
6 yes, but a word here or there could be more to the left or to the right.
7 What is the word that you would have liked changed?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I understand, Your
9 Honour, my daughter was 17, but one daughter was 27 and the other was 26.
10 And then my wedded wife, the mother of these two daughters, was Jelka
11 Djitko, and Ljubica was a friend, but one could call her an unmarried
12 wife or a partner.
13 Could I add something else?
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have quickly reached Velepromet.
16 We didn't refer to Modateks because certain things happened there, too.
17 Those would be my comments. But in my statement I will come back to
18 that, in my testimony.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand you well, the
20 one who was killed on the 6th of November is your concubine, your
21 mistress, not your wife, the one you married and whom you divorced in
22 1982? Is that right?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. We can call her a
24 friend or an unwed -- a common-law wife.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
1 MR. FERRARA: Can we call up the document 65 ter number 2513.
2 Q. Mr. Berghofer --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- do you recognise this photo?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. What's it?
7 A. That is the Vukovar Hospital.
8 Q. How many nights did you spend there?
9 A. Well, from the 17th, the night of the 17th, the 18th, up until
10 the 19th.
11 Q. Where were you taken away from the hospital? And where?
12 A. We went first to the barracks.
13 MR. FERRARA: Your Honour, I'd like to move for the admission of
14 this document into exhibit.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Registrar, can we
16 have an exhibit number for this photograph?
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P279, Your Honours.
18 MR. FERRARA: Please, Mr. Registrar, can you call up 65 ter
19 number 4040, page 3.
20 Q. Please, Mr. Berghofer, could you describe for the Court what the
21 photo represents?
22 A. Yes, Your Honour. That is the road leading to Negoslavci and
23 that is the side entrance to the barracks.
24 Q. You should have an electronic pen. Could you mark the direction
25 the bus entered the compound, the JNA barracks. Is this from outside
1 that we see the barracks or from inside?
2 A. From the compound.
3 Q. From inside.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How long did you stay in the compound, into the buses?
6 A. Well, let us say, Your Honours, from 8.30 or 9.00 we were still
7 in the hospital, then you add 15 minutes and then four or five hours,
8 because we reached Ovcara at exactly 1.30. I remember that very well.
9 Q. Can you describe us very quickly what's happened when you were in
10 the buses, what's happened outside the buses?
11 A. I can, Judge. We arrived in six buses with Zrenjanin
12 registration plates. The buses had about 45 seats each, and for about
13 four hours, maybe a little longer, we sat there. During that time we
14 were guarded by young soldiers at the doors of the buses and for -- then
15 Professor Licina got off my bus; a watch-maker, Hedik; and Nurse Biba's
16 husband -- I beg your pardon. Just now I can't remember the name, but I
17 will remember.
18 Three persons got off and they were set free. Then they pulled
19 out some others from some other buses. So I thought, They are lucky;
20 somebody must have taken them off. However, when I saw that they were
21 being kicked around and hit on the head with rifle butts, pushed with
22 their hands and beaten, I changed my opinion.
23 Q. This happened in the compound where you marking before?
24 A. Yes, yes, yes. All those who were taken off the bus, at least
25 those I saw being kicked, they were put on a seventh military bus.
1 Q. Can you mark in the photo where that's happening?
2 A. It's narrow. There were other buildings here in the compound,
3 within the barracks compound, and we were standing away from this -- from
4 where this photograph is taken.
5 MR. FERRARA: Your Honours, I would like to tender into exhibit
6 65 ter number 4040, page 3.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, a number,
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P280.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I add, the third person was
11 Koljesar. Nurse Biba's husband, Koljesar, he worked in Elektro
12 Slavonija. That is the third person.
13 MR. FERRARA:
14 Q. Mr. Berghofer, where were you taken after the barracks?
15 A. We were taken to Ovcara.
16 MR. FERRARA: Please, Mr. Registrar, I would like to call up 65
17 ter number 2825.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I wish to tell
19 you that you have another five minutes left of the time attributed to
20 you, so if the Judges have no questions to put to the witness, we could
21 finish today.
22 MR. FERRARA: I have some few questions.
23 Q. Mr. Berghofer, what's this list?
24 A. This is a list of all the boys I found in Ovcara and with whom I
25 was beaten, together with them.
1 Q. Who wrote this list?
2 A. Me, Your Honour.
3 Q. When?
4 A. It must be about two years ago. I had 10 minutes available to me
5 and I made up this list on the spot, offhand.
6 Q. Where did you see the people indicated in this list?
7 A. They were with me at Ovcara.
8 Q. Have you ever seen these people again?
9 A. Never.
10 Q. Do you know if they were found later, and where?
11 A. Some were found at Ovcara and some have still not been found,
12 Your Honour.
13 Q. When you say -- when you say "Some were found at Ovcara," what do
14 you mean? Were they found alive or dead?
15 A. Dead. Dead.
16 Q. You said that you wrote this list about two years ago. Where
18 A. When the Prosecutor was Mr. Moore, here. I think it was on the
19 3rd of March, 2006. There's a date on top.
20 Q. So did you write the list before testifying in some trial?
21 A. I had another list before this. Ever since 1992 when I left
22 Mitrovica, I had a piece of paper and I wrote down all the names I could
23 remember as soon as I returned from prison. However, I didn't bring it
24 with me when talking to Mr. Moore. So he didn't force me, but he simply
25 said how come I didn't bring it. But I never carried it with me. And
1 then within 10 minutes I wrote it down, what I could remember. These
2 were sons of my colleagues. Some were my friends. Some people are of
3 the same age of me, people I grew up with. So there was no problem for
4 me to compile this name -- this list.
5 MR. FERRARA: Your Honours, I would like to tender into exhibit
6 the document 65 ter number 2825. Just last question. Please,
7 Mr. Registrar --
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P281, Your Honours.
10 MR. FERRARA: Please, Mr. Registrar, can you call up 65 ter
11 number 4103.
12 Q. Mr. Berghofer, can you describe to the Court what the photo
14 A. This is a picture of Velepromet.
15 Q. Can you mark with the pen the entrance of the Velepromet and the
16 room where you were taken?
17 A. This was known as the "Room of Death."
18 Q. You can mark it with a cross if you want, also with a big cross.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Is this the entrance?
21 A. To the right. This is also the road leading to Negoslavci. Up
22 there is the barracks.
23 Q. Where you put an arrow, what's there? You made two marks, one on
24 the right and one on the left.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What's there on the left?
2 A. On the left is the so-called "Room of Death." That is where we
3 were placed when we got there.
4 Q. Why the room was called the "Room of Death"?
5 A. Because, Your Honours, apart from seven or eight of us, no others
6 came out alive. No others returned.
7 Q. Can you put number 1 next to the "Room of Death"?
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you. Do you remember the names of the people who were
10 taken away from the room when you were -- when you were there?
11 A. Very well, because I knew them. I'm a local of Vukovar, and
12 already in 1992, 1993, I told these names. There was Matausek, Golac,
13 Tihomir Perkovic. Among the Gypsies, Dzema, the accordion player's son;
14 Crk, who was manager of Pik, a plant, a slaughterhouse.
15 Q. Have you ever seen them again?
16 A. No, never.
17 Q. Do you know if they were found or not?
18 A. Tihomir Perkovic, with whom I was saved at Ovcara, as far as I
19 know he was never found.
20 Q. Any other?
21 A. I think, as far as I know, Matausek was not found either. As for
22 Golac, his father was in Germany. He looked for him there and I never
23 again heard of him or his father. Actually, they were not found.
24 Q. Mr. Berghofer, were all these people you mentioned civilians or
1 A. As far as I know among the persons, only the son of the Gypsy
2 Dzema was in uniform. He was short, about 1 metre 60. This man lifted
3 him up, put him on the table, this reservist, the same person who took
4 them all out later on, and he said, "This is a real Zenga and not you,"
5 using the word for women's genitals, and he used the actual word itself,
6 referring to the rest of you.
7 Q. The last question: You statement you say repeatedly "Chetniks."
8 What do you mean for "Chetniks"?
9 A. Well, you see, as I grew up in Yugoslavia and I watched the
10 partisan films, the Chetniks were shown wearing cockades, with beards,
11 carrying knives, like killers. That's how they were portrayed in films.
12 However, what happened now was that some of them still wore this
13 so-called Serb sajkaca, they wore insignia, and they had beards.
14 Q. Did you see these kind of people in Vukovar during the war,
15 dressed as you described now?
16 A. I did, Your Honour.
17 MR. FERRARA: Your Honours, I would like to tender into exhibit
18 the document 65 ter number 4103.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have a number, please?
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P282, Your Honours.
21 MR. FERRARA: I want to enter all the above-mentioned documents
22 that are attached to the 92 ter statement that we tender into an exhibit
23 at the beginning of the interview. I don't have any questions.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would have just one question
25 before closing, Witness.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How do you make a distinction
3 between the Chetniks and JNA soldiers or members of the Territorial
4 Defence? On what basis do you make that distinction.
5 A. Well, Your Honours, it was like this: Soldiers of the regular
6 army wore olive-grey uniforms. The local reservists wore older JNA
7 uniforms. Some local people of Vukovar were in civilian clothes and some
8 were people we had never seen before. Like Topala, the sniper, for
9 instance, he wore the Montenegrin cap. Then some people in the barracks
10 wore sajkacas, and in Ovcara also they wore these sajkacas, or
11 traditional caps with certain insignia, so that I assessed them to be
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 Sir, your testimony has now been completed, as the accused will
15 not be cross-examining you. Thank you for coming at the request of the
16 Prosecution and the Chamber conveys its sympathy to you for everything
17 that happened to your family, your daughter, and your partner.
18 I would now like to ask Madam Usher to be kind enough to
19 accompany you out.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will very quickly discuss
22 with the Prosecution the programme.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Tomorrow we could have heard
25 the witness envisaged for next week. That will not be possible,
1 Mr. Mundis, the witness planned?
2 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President, that witness does not arrive
3 until Sunday here in The Hague, unfortunately.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Then we will find
5 ourselves in the same situation as today, because Mr. Seselj will not
6 cross-examine so we will be proceeding very quickly with the witness
7 planned for Tuesday. So could you also prepare with the following
8 witness planned for Wednesday and Thursday so that as of Tuesday we can
9 begin with the following witness.
10 MR. MUNDIS: We will endeavour to do that, Mr. President. I will
11 also indicate at this point in time and follow up as soon as we're able
12 to do so that we are undertaking also a review of videotapes with an eye
13 towards perhaps showing videotapes as a means of ensuring that the
14 courtroom is fully utilised. Once we have --
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Tomorrow we can have used the
16 time available for the videos?
17 MR. MUNDIS: We very well could be in a position. Perhaps if I
18 was, this afternoon, to consult with members of my team, we could provide
19 to the Chamber and to Dr. Seselj a list of videos perhaps to be shown as
20 early as tomorrow. Perhaps if I could be given a couple of hours in
21 order to make a determination on that and we could notify the Chamber by
22 way of the legal officer and Dr. Seselj by way of the Detention Unit
23 exactly which videos we would be in a position to show tomorrow so
24 everyone is fully aware of what we will be doing.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
1 Mr. Seselj, last time you told us that you are not opposed
2 regarding the videos. Do you still take that position?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that is not quite
4 what I said. I said that it is possible for videotapes to be admitted
5 directly into evidence without hearing a certain witness, going with a
6 witness, but only on condition that I am shown on those videotapes
7 engaged in any kind of activity. Only then can those videotapes be
8 admitted into evidence directly. In all other cases videotapes have to
9 be explained, their origin has to be established, their relevance, and
10 everything else. And how do you imagine that I get a list of videotapes
11 this evening and for them to be shown tomorrow already?
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the video list is
13 something that you have had for a long time. You have all those videos
14 and you have probably viewed them. The interest in everyone seeing those
15 videos is to -- for all of us to see them, and then if necessary those
16 videos can be shown again when we have witnesses. For example, the video
17 we saw this morning, if it was already shown before, everybody would have
18 seen it and the Prosecutor could have shown the video again. So this
19 would allow us to save time.
20 My understanding was that you were in agreement for the videos,
21 but you are not in agreement on the other videos where -- that don't show
22 you, and I think that you maintain that position now.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, four or five years
24 ago I received videotapes with a total duration of over 100 hours. That
25 is in 2003 and 2004, when they were sending me these classical
1 videotapes, until they started sending me DVDs. When they started with
2 the DVDs, I refused to see them. So videotapes shown on a video player
3 were of a duration of more than a hundred hours. That's quite certain.
4 There's all kinds of things there on those tapes. If I were to assess
5 the relevance, maybe not more than 5 per cent of them are relevant.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, in view of the
7 objections, it is already a bit too late because between now and tomorrow
8 it's not possible to deal with the matter. You have to send us a list of
9 videotapes that you might show us and then Mr. Seselj will make his
10 comments and then the Chamber will decide, because otherwise it would be
11 going too fast to show videos tomorrow because there may be problems.
12 So the best idea is to draw up a list of videotapes. There are
13 three categories. The first category are videotapes showing Mr. Seselj
14 making speeches, the second category of videotapes which are CNN,
15 SkyNews, or who knows who's stories about certain events, and then a
16 third category could be videos which necessarily need to be produced
17 through a witness. So please make a list of these different categories,
18 and then Mr. Seselj will say, I agree, I don't agree, and then we will be
19 able to show those videos.
20 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
21 MR. MUNDIS: It will be done, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Therefore, tomorrow we will not
23 be having any hearings. We will resume next Tuesday, at 2.15, because we
24 are working in the afternoons.
25 Yes, Mr. Seselj.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I request, Mr. President, for the
2 four hours lost tomorrow to be discounted from the available time for the
3 Prosecution, because it is their fault that they don't have a witness
4 ready tomorrow. These are four hours that we are losing. That's another
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, do you wish to
8 MR. MUNDIS: It's my understanding that the time that the
9 Prosecution has been allocated consists of direct examination time and
10 consequently if there is no direct examination, there is no time to be
11 allocated to the Prosecution.
12 I would also place on the record at this point in time that
13 although I understand now, and it is clear now, that Dr. Seselj will not
14 cross any of the 92 ter witnesses, at the time the calendars are produced
15 and the witnesses are scheduled, it was completely unclear to us whether
16 in fact he would cross-examine witnesses or not. Producing witnesses, as
17 the Trial Chamber is well aware, is not something that can be done in 24
18 hours. Visas are required. It generally takes five working days to
19 process and get witnesses here, so that our lead time is five to 10 days
20 down the road in terms of getting witnesses here. So we simply can't
21 stop on a dime, as they say, and produce witnesses, nor can the schedule
22 be altered in a quick manner.
23 So we would oppose what Dr. Seselj has suggested for the reasons
24 that I've just indicated.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as early as last
2 year I cautioned that I would not cross the 92 ter witnesses, and you
3 will remember that. You were the Pre-Trial Judge in those days. I
4 fought for a year emphatically against the implementation of those rules
5 in these proceedings, so what I said was not a surprise. Maybe you
6 didn't believe me, that I really would refuse to cross-examine them, but
7 that's another problem. Frequently people are mistaken because they
8 don't believe me in due time.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Concerning the
10 time, the time allocated to the Prosecution by the Chamber is a time
11 which was a function of the written statements and the intentions of the
12 Prosecution. Regarding the witness for which 30 minutes was given, those
13 30 minutes were used. However, the time for the cross-examination, if he
14 doesn't use it, it's too bad for him, so it is time that is lost and
15 which could not be made up for.
16 Having said that, it is not 2.15 Tuesday but 2.45. I have to
17 make myself clear. Thank you, and we will meet on Tuesday, at 2.45.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.34 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day of
20 March, 2008, at 2.45 p.m.