1 Tuesday, 22 April 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Registrar, could you please
7 call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 Good morning everyone in the courtroom.
10 This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus
11 Vojislav Seselj.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 This is Tuesday, April 22nd, 2008, and I welcome Mr. Marcussen,
14 our witness, Mr. Seselj, as well as all the other people helping us.
15 I would like to ask Madam Registrar to please move to private
16 session in order for the solemn declaration to be made.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 6296-6297 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I have with me first -- I should
13 introduce my assistant today, one of our interns, Amy Sinier, who is
14 helping with the presentation of the evidence of this witness.
15 Examination by Mr. Marcussen:
16 Q. VS-1065, what religion do you have, if you have any?
17 A. I'm a Muslim.
18 Q. And where did you grow up?
19 A. I grew up in the village of Divic, Zvornik Municipality,
21 Q. And did you live there in 1992?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. What was the ethnic composition of your village?
24 A. The majority population were Muslim in the village. There were
25 some Serbs, one family and five people from a mixed marriage, married to
2 Q. How many people lived in your village?
3 A. Roughly, two and a half thousand.
4 Q. What was the relationship between the Muslims and the few people
5 of Serb origin that lived in the village?
6 A. Well, the relations were good. I don't think there were any
8 Q. Now, I'd like to talk about first some events in the beginning of
9 April 1992. Around that time, did you see any military equipment in the
10 area that were not usually there?
11 A. Well, perhaps at the beginning of 1992, it was noticed on the
12 Serb side that there was some artillery pieces, artillery weapons, that
13 weren't there beforehand.
14 Q. When you say "on the Serb side," what do you mean? The Serb side
15 of what?
16 A. I mean on the Serbian side.
17 Q. The Serbian side of -- of what?
18 A. Well, Divic is at the border between Bosnia-Herzegovina and
19 Serbia, in the border area, so what I mean is on the side of the state of
21 Q. And what -- is the border visible by any particular natural
23 Maybe I can help the witness out -- maybe I can lead on this. I
24 think it's a matter of just confusing -- am I correct that the border is
25 demarcated by the Drina River?
1 A. That's right, yes.
2 Q. Did the artillery pieces you see -- you saw, at some point were
3 they stationed at particular locations that were recognisable along the
5 A. Well, they were positioned at the bridges and opposite to where I
6 lived, on a hill there. I think it was in Mali Zvornik Municipality.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly be asked to speak up,
8 please. Thank you.
9 MR. MARCUSSEN:
10 Q. VS-1065, if you can try to speak a little bit louder. It's
11 difficult for the interpreters to hear you.
12 After Zvornik was attacked on around the 8th of April, did the
13 inhabitants of your village remain in the village?
14 A. Well, not at that time, not everybody remained. Perhaps a couple
15 of people stayed on. The rest left and went to the neighbouring
16 villages, around the village of Divic.
17 Q. You, yourself, did you stay or did you leave?
18 A. I also left one night, and then I returned.
19 Q. And what about your family?
20 A. My family stayed for several days, stayed up there, and then a
21 couple of days later my father returned.
22 Q. Did you have other members of your family living in your village
23 with you?
24 A. After some time, everybody went back to the village of Divic,
25 those who wanted to go back.
1 Q. And after people had returned, what was the situation like in
3 A. At the beginning, the situation was -- well, we were isolated.
4 We couldn't go into town anymore. We were there in the place we were in,
5 and we weren't allowed to move around, we couldn't move around, just
6 around those villages and perhaps take the road to a little further off.
7 Q. I'd like to jump a little bit ahead to the month of May, and I'd
8 like to ask you: Did there come a time when the inhabitants of your
9 village were asked to leave the village?
10 A. Yes. That happened roughly around the 26th of May, after the
11 units -- the shifts of the units were changed who were in our place on
12 the Serb side, this unit came in and the unit said we had to move out
13 because nobody could guarantee our safety and security there any longer.
14 And they gave us roughly two hours to get ready, to prepare ourselves,
15 and then they said they would transport us to Olovo.
16 Q. The unit that moved into your village, could you describe that
17 unit for us, please?
18 A. Well, it was the army, soldiers wearing military uniforms. We
19 didn't know the unit -- we didn't know the people, rather. I didn't know
20 them, didn't know who they were. So, well, they all had weapons.
21 Q. Why do you identify them as being from the army?
22 A. Because they were wearing military uniforms, and at the
23 beginning, when the Serb army came to our village, after that first
24 military unit that entered our village, the police came. I think it was
25 the police from the town of Zvornik, and it patrolled the area, and in a
1 way it allowed us or enabled us to go into town. And in town, we would
2 be issued permits allowing us to move around. So they were in blue
3 uniforms, and that's why I think that unit was the army.
4 Q. Thank you. And so you said that you were told that you would be
5 transported to Olovo. How many people were going to be transported, do
6 you estimate?
7 A. Approximately 500 people, a total.
8 Q. How were you going to be transported, by what means?
9 A. Buses.
10 Q. Do you remember approximately how many buses there were?
11 A. I think there were 11 buses.
12 Q. Did you go to Olovo?
13 A. Never reached Olovo. We reached Han Pijesak, and we weren't able
14 to go further on from there, because they told us that there was fighting
15 going on up ahead so we weren't allowed to move on.
16 Q. How long did you stay at the place where you couldn't move on
18 A. We were there for approximately two hours, and then we returned,
19 and we were stopped between Vlasenica and Milici. I think the place was
20 actually called Zaklopaca.
21 Q. And how long were you stopped at that location?
22 A. The whole night.
23 Q. And the next day, did you move on again?
24 A. The next day, we once again set out in the direction of Zvornik,
25 where we were stopped by the SUP of Zvornik, and we spent about an hour
1 there. And then we set off again in the direction of Tuzla, and we
2 reached Crni Vrh, and we weren't able to go further because allegedly
3 there was some fighting going on there too.
4 Q. And so having been stopped again, where did you -- where did you
5 go to?
6 A. They sent us back to the Zvornik station.
7 Q. What kind of a station; train station, bus station?
8 A. It was a bus station.
9 Q. Could you describe to us what happened there at the bus station?
10 A. We waited there for a time, and then some soldiers turned up,
11 some young guys wearing uniforms, and they ordered all the men to step
12 out of the buses, and they escorted us to the city stadium that was right
13 next to the station. And up on the stands, they separated people, people
14 over the age of 65 and those under the age of 18, and then they returned
15 them to the buses. And then these men, who were militarily fit, stayed
16 on the stands. The others were returned to the buses.
17 Q. How many people remained on the stands?
18 A. About 174 persons.
19 Q. And you were among those men?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where were this group of men that you were in -- where were you
22 taken from the bus station -- from the stadium, sorry?
23 A. They took us in column, two-by-two, away from the stadium. They
24 escorted us through town to the administration building at Novi Izvor
25 [Realtime transcript read in error "Mali Izvor"], where they put us up in
1 a room there, and we had enough space just to stand, standing room.
2 Q. And while you were there, were you -- did anybody of authority
3 come to see you?
4 A. After some time had gone by, Brano Grujic turned up. I think he
5 was an official in the Zvornik Municipality, and he said we would go and
6 do some labour somewhere and that we should draw up a list of the people
7 in the room and sign it -- or, rather, sign a loyalty oath or something
8 like that.
9 Q. Loyalty to who?
10 A. Well, in my opinion, to their authorities. What he had in mind,
11 I really don't know.
12 Q. And when you say "their authorities," who are you referring to?
13 A. The Serb authorities. Or, rather, I think that it meant that we
14 should accept their power and authority. That's my opinion.
15 Q. And did you sign the loyalty certificate?
16 A. I did not, and I don't think anybody else did, because they no
17 longer asked for it later on.
18 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you.
19 Before I move on, at page 9, line 20 of the transcript, there's a
20 reference to a location which should be Novi Izvor. N-O-V-I I-Z-V-O-R.
21 Q. Witness 1065, at this point in time did any of the men that you
22 were with leave the group?
23 A. Yes. After some time had gone by, they took out a young man, and
24 later on we learnt that through the intervention of his family from
25 Serbia, they transported him to Serbia.
1 Q. And later on, did more -- did more people leave the group?
2 A. Yes. After time, some young guys turned up, wearing military
3 uniforms, and they said that they were looking for 10 volunteers who
4 would go with them to our village to search the houses there, and then
5 allegedly they would return and another group would be sent out until all
6 the houses had been searched and until they all went back to the houses.
7 Q. Did any of those men come back again?
8 A. On that occasion, 11 people went, and they never returned.
9 Q. To your knowledge, have they been seen since?
10 A. I don't think anybody saw them alive, but they were found dead,
11 some of them.
12 Q. Do you remember the name -- the names of any of these 10 men?
13 A. I think there was Enver Pezerovic, Smajl Pezerovic, Kemal Tuhcic,
14 Hasan Tuhcic, Ibrahim Kuljanin.
15 Q. VS-1065, you -- did you give a statement to the Office of the
16 Prosecutor in 1996?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Yesterday, did you have a chance to review that statement again?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. And in that statement, did you list the names of the victims that
21 you remembered had suffered various abuses and were killed during the
22 time period that we are talking about today?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When you looked at your statement yesterday, did that -- did that
25 remind you of the victims that you knew about had suffered abuses and who
1 had been killed?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And were you shown a list of various victims yesterday?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And having looked at that list, did you make some corrections to
6 the list?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the list that you were shown was a list of various victims?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in addition to making corrections to the lists, did you also
11 add some additional victims that were not included in your statement from
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And having done that, was the list then corrected and updated
15 based on the corrections you had made to the list?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I would ask now if we could call up
18 65 ter number 7220.
19 Q. Witness 1065, now on your screen, to your right, there should be
20 a picture of a list.
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we scroll down to -- the English version,
22 if we could look at the bottom part of the document.
23 Sorry, can we move away from that again, please.
24 I should probably ask that we do not broadcast the exhibit
25 outside the courtroom, if we can avoid that.
1 So that's not been done. Sorry, can we move back to this.
2 Q. VS-1065, is this the list that was finalised with you yesterday,
3 and is this your signature down at the bottom there?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 MR. MARCUSSEN: And could we move to the next page, please, of
6 the document.
7 Q. This is difficult to see, but is this also your signature?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: The same exercise again to the third page. Go
10 down and see the signature. Thank you.
11 Q. And, again, this is also your signature on the third page?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: And let's do the last two pages as well. If we
14 can go to the fourth page. And then --
15 Q. Is this your signature?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. MARCUSSEN: And the last page, if we can go to that and have
18 a look at the signature.
19 Q. And, again, am I correct this is your signature?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I would like at this stage to seek
22 the admission of this list of victims. I'm going to come back to the
23 list a number of times as we move through the testimony.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just one question.
25 You put your signature at the bottom of various lists of victims.
1 We have this list. Therefore, I am slightly taken aback by the fact that
2 you can give names of more than 100 people. You give their first names,
3 their last names. Should we think that when you came to The Hague, you
4 already had on you, in your pocket, let's say, a list of victims' names?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The list of all those persons that
6 are contained in my statement was given during my first statement in
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With respect to 1996, because I
9 have your statement in my hand, there were 11 people who disappeared.
10 They must have been killed. And now we have 26 names. So you've added
11 15 names. Did your memory just come back, or how can you explain this
12 additional knowledge?
13 Mr. Marcussen.
14 MR. MARCUSSEN: Sorry. If you will allow me to explain the logic
15 of the list, that is the Prosecutor's making and not the witness.
16 The list has been drawn up, so there are basically four parts of
17 the list that talk about different series of events, one series of events
18 prior to the Bajram holiday, events on the Bajram holiday, events on the
19 Vidovdan holiday, and events at the Batkovic camp. So we're trying, in
20 the list, to group the victims together. So the 11 people that are
21 mentioned by the victims are on the list, but there are other victims
22 that were killed during the pre-Bajram period following these 11 people.
23 But I will be going through that with the witness in a little bit.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Prosecutor
25 explained to us how this list came about. This list, the Prosecutor
1 tells us that he drafted it and subdivided the list in three categories;
2 the victims before Bajram, the victims during Bajram, and we have the
3 victims after Bajram. This is why the lists that you signed show us all
4 the victims' names.
5 Do you agree with what the Prosecutor just explained?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Marcussen. Would you like to have a number?
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, please.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number, please, Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become
12 Exhibit number P381.
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: Sorry, I should have asked that it be placed
14 under seal.
15 THE REGISTRAR: P381, under seal.
16 MR. MARCUSSEN:
17 Q. VS-1065 -- oh, sorry, could we go back to the first page of this
19 If we look at this list, the 11 people that you mentioned were
20 taken away from the Novi Izvor administrative building, are they, on
21 this -- can you see them on this page, and if so, which numbers do they
23 A. They are on this list from numbers 1 to 11.
24 Q. How long did you remain at the administrative building?
25 A. They were there for about three days in the administrative
2 Q. Then where did you go?
3 A. After that, we were told to leave the building, and they
4 transferred us by buses to a nearby place on the road between Zvornik and
5 Bijeljina. The place was called Celopek.
6 MR. MARCUSSEN: And I'd like now if we could call up
7 Exhibit 65 ter 4164, please.
8 Q. 1065, do you recognise this building?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where is that?
11 A. It was the building where we were put up after the administrative
12 building and Novi Izvor.
13 Q. So is this the building in Celopek?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. MARCUSSEN: And, Your Honours, this was -- picture was not
16 included in -- by mistake was not included in the witness binder. I
17 would like to show another picture for the witness and ask him what the
18 picture is, and that is 65 ter number 4148, which is a picture that was
19 in the witness binder.
20 Q. VS-1065, do you know what this building is?
21 A. It is the same building in Celopek, in front of the centre. It
22 was the bus station at the time.
23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I would like to tender 65 ter
24 number 4164 and 4148.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 4164 becomes P382 and 4148 becomes
3 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you.
4 And just for the Registrar, we will be talking more about the
5 list, so P81, under seal, during the rest of the testimony, so maybe you
6 want to prepare that as we move on.
7 Q. VS-1065, how big was the room that you were placed in in Celopek?
8 A. It was like a cinema hall. I can't tell you exactly, but about
9 20 metres wide and some 50 metres long, perhaps a little smaller or a
10 little bigger than that. I must say that I'm not quite certain when
11 talking about widths and lengths, and I don't know the exact size of the
13 Q. Was there anything prepared there for the detainees to be able to
15 A. When we arrived or, rather, entered this hall, we saw that there
16 were about eight iron beds there and thin field mattresses, some
17 blankets, and there was a stage on the right-hand side of the building,
18 so that almost all of us had somewhere to lie down and to cover ourselves
19 with the blankets.
20 Q. Were you given any food while you were detained there in the
22 A. For the first three days, we didn't get anything as food. We had
23 to manage somehow ourselves, with the help of the guards who were there.
24 We'd give them some money and they would get us something to eat.
25 Q. And the guards that were there, could you describe how they
2 A. They were wearing blue uniforms. They were armed. They had
3 automatic rifles. And that's it.
4 Q. Were you allowed to move outside the building?
5 A. At first, we could go out in front of the building. We could go
6 and use the toilet without any problems. We could come out when we
7 liked, to light a cigarette, except during the night. But later on, we
8 couldn't go out without permission.
9 Q. And did the guards change at some point in time?
10 A. The guards who were in front of the building were always members
11 of the police. I think it was the municipal police. I don't know
12 exactly who they were. But occasionally some others would come, some
13 other groups or some other men, who were wearing military uniforms or
14 half civilian, half military clothing.
15 Q. Did there come a time when -- no, sorry, let me rephrase that.
16 At the beginning, did you have your ID papers and other personal
17 belongings with you?
18 A. We only had the clothes we were wearing on us. As for the
19 document, a savings booklet and everything, we had that on us, but we had
20 no luggage.
21 Q. Were you -- your personal papers taken away from you at some
22 point in time?
23 A. Yes. I think early on, a day or two later, a group of men
24 arrived, who ordered us to take off our belts, shoelaces, and they took
25 away all our documents and everything we had. We had to hand in money,
1 jewellery, documents, and so on.
2 Q. And these men, could you describe what they looked like? Were
3 they members of the police or were they different?
4 A. They were wearing military uniform. The colour was green, SMB,
5 the military colour.
6 Q. You said that you had to hand in all your personal papers, and
7 your shoelaces and belts and money. Was anyone asked to pay money to
8 this group later on?
9 A. Yes. They took out a person, and they promised him that they
10 would transfer him to where he wanted to go, and he was told to give him
11 about 2.000 German marks, and for this sum they would transfer him to
12 wherever he said he wanted to go.
13 Q. Did he have 2.000 marks that he could give the soldiers?
14 A. He didn't have that money on him. He asked us to lend him the
15 money, and he said he would return the money when he was freed. However,
16 the people who had money collected about 1.700 marks for him to be able
17 to give the money to this group that was demanding it of him.
18 Q. And did he give the money to the group?
19 A. Yes, he handed over the money. And later on, when they came, at
20 the time they promised the money was given to them, he asked that they
21 return at least our IDs. And during the first conversation, they
22 promised to do that. Later on, when he handed over the money and when he
23 asked for those documents, they swore at him, they hit him and pushed him
24 back into the room where we were.
25 Q. Do you know the name of the person who were asked to give the
1 2.000 marks?
2 A. Yes, I do. His name was Hasan.
3 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'd like to ask that we go into private session
4 just for a little bit.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar.
6 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
20 MR. MARCUSSEN:
21 Q. 1065, did there come a time when a registration was made of some
22 of the detainees?
23 A. While we were staying in this room, at the beginning, almost
24 every evening, the people were counted who were there, and a list of
25 names was made, I think, only once, but the numbers were checked every
2 Q. Could you describe the making of the list, please?
3 A. We had to form two lines, and then a policeman came, wearing a
4 blue uniform, who counted the men, who checked whether everyone was
6 Q. Was there a point when the detainees were asked to make a list,
7 themselves, or write down names?
8 A. On one occasion, we were asked to make a list of fathers and sons
9 who were there in that room.
10 Q. Who asked you to make that list?
11 A. On one occasion, a group came who introduced themselves as being
12 the people who would take care of us, who would, as they said, protect
13 us, that the only requirement was that we carry out their orders. They
14 didn't give their names. They just told us a song that we had to sing
15 when they came and when they left. And from this song, we concluded that
16 the name of one of them was Repic, or rather his nickname. And also from
17 that song, we assumed that the other person's nickname was Lopov or
19 Q. And did Repic have anything to do with the order that you prepare
20 a list of fathers and sons?
21 A. Yes. He told us, for fathers and sons, to separate, and first
22 the sons had to form a line and then their father stood behind them, and
23 then we had to make that list.
24 Q. Were any of the detainees that were registered marked in some way
25 at this point in time?
1 A. While we were making the list, he went from one person to the
2 other and he made a cross on the forehead of some men with a knife.
3 Q. Was a cross made on you?
4 A. That didn't happen to me.
5 Q. Do you know approximately how many men had a cross made on their
7 A. I think roughly about 10. I'm not quite sure.
8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Now, I'm afraid I misled the Registrar a little
9 while ago. I think we have to go and see 65 ter number 4216.
10 Q. 1065, do you know who this person is?
11 A. Yes, that is Repic.
12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I would --
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I saw the
14 photograph in the file. Could you tell us where it comes from? Where
15 did you get this photograph? What is its source?
16 MR. MARCUSSEN: It's a photograph that -- it's a still or two
17 stills that are taken from a video, and I haven't had time to check what
18 that video is. I have the video reference to it. But it's a video -- a
19 still that the Office of the Prosecutor has taken from a video, and it
20 was -- it was referred to in the statement of the witness from 1996, at
21 page 7.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But this video, is
23 it the recording of a questioning by the police? I guess so. That's
24 what it looks like.
25 MR. MARCUSSEN: I apologise, Your Honours. I haven't had time to
1 check on the video. I can inform you, after the break, what this is.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Resume.
3 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'd like to tender this exhibit, please.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number, please.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become
6 Exhibit number P384.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN:
8 Q. Now, you have described one group, and you have given the
9 nicknames of some of the members of this group. Was there another group
10 that also came to where you were detained regularly?
11 A. Yes, they did come. Those others who came weren't called by
12 their names. There was one they referred to as "Major," and the other
13 one's name was Zoks. Now, I learnt of this name later on, when we went
14 to Batkovici.
15 Q. The person you learned was called "Zoks," have you subsequently
16 seen him? And I ask that you just answer "yes" or "no" to the question.
17 A. I think I have.
18 MR. MARCUSSEN: And I'd ask we move into private session for the
19 witness to --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.
21 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
11 MR. MARCUSSEN:
12 Q. On the day that Zoks and his group came to where you were
13 detained, did anything particular happen?
14 A. Every time they arrived, those groups arrived, something
15 happened. And when Zoks arrived and this major -- well, they referred to
16 him as "Major," they asked us to hand over our money, our weapons. And
17 on many occasions, they asked us to hand over our weapons or to tell them
18 who was in possession of weapons, things like that.
19 Q. Did anyone say anything about how much value were put on your
21 A. Well, while they were asking for these weapons or money, they
22 would threaten us and say that they'd kill us. They threatened us in
23 various ways, and then they -- or, rather, Zoks said to us that our lives
24 were cheaper than the bullet in the barrel in the pistol he had.
25 Q. Were [sic] anyone actually killed?
1 A. I did not see anybody actually killed, but two people were taken
2 out, and you could hear two shots fired. And afterwards, they took out
3 another person to see what had happened outside -- I apologise for
4 coughing -- to see what had happened outside. And when that person
5 returned to the room, they told him to tell us what he had seen. Now, he
6 couldn't do that or wouldn't do that to begin with, but as they forced
7 him then he said that the people had been killed.
8 Q. The person who was taken outside and came back and told this to
9 the other detainees, do you remember his name?
10 A. His name was Sakib.
11 Q. And the names of the two people that were killed, do you remember
12 those today?
13 A. Ramo and Sulejman.
14 MR. MARCUSSEN: And I'd ask if we could call up the list that we
15 saw before. So I believe that was P381. The list is up to the left on
16 the screen.
17 Q. The two people you just mentioned, are they on this list? And if
18 so, what number do they have?
19 A. Yes, he's [as interpreted] under number 12 and 13.
20 Q. Thank you. Were anyone else called out that day?
21 A. Well, they took out I think his name was Alija. They took him
22 outside and brought him back, but he didn't tell us what they asked of
23 him. And then they selected a young man whom they took out, and they
24 talked to him. I don't know what they talked to him about. And that
25 young man afterwards, when they returned him, he said in front of them --
1 he told us -- he said that we should say -- we should say who of us had
2 weapons to save his life, because they told him that he would be killed
3 unless we told him who had weapons.
4 Q. Did -- well, could you describe, then, what happened during -- in
5 a general way, what happened during the following days? Did these groups
6 come back to you in -- where you were detained?
7 A. Those groups were there almost all the time on the premises.
8 Now, perhaps there were times in between where we were left to ourselves,
9 but otherwise those groups would be there. They would rotate, they would
10 change shifts. Sometimes they were together, other times they were
11 separate, but they were there almost all the time.
12 Q. Did they -- were they there as guards or did they do something
13 else to the detainees?
14 A. I don't think they were there in the capacity of guards. I think
15 they would come in from somewhere else, and they would come because of
16 their interests; either to make fun of us, or take our money, or things
17 like that. I don't know.
18 Q. I'd like to ask you about Dihic, Enes and Halilovic, Ibro. Do
19 you know these two persons?
20 A. Yes, I do, I do know those two. They were taken out by Repic on
21 one occasion while Repic was looking for money, asking us to hand over
22 any money we might have. And while they were beating us and God knows
23 what else they were doing to us, he took Enes out first and he said that
24 he had to talk to him about something. And then the people who were with
25 him, they threw Enes out. Then afterwards he selected Ibro. He took him
1 out, too. And they never returned.
2 Q. And I'd like to ask you about a person that -- well --
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, there's
4 something here that I find strange in your answers.
5 There's a group of persons coming to -- asking you for money.
6 Actually, it's racketing, in a way. Why can't they just search everyone
7 and take the money that people would have on them, rather than ask for
8 money and then hit people? Do you have an opinion on this?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said a moment ago that the
10 first group which came and which ordered us to hand over all the
11 documents, and our belts, and anything else, we did that, we handed all
12 those things over, and they didn't hand over everything because the
13 people -- some people thought that it wouldn't last long and that they
14 might need some money. But when they took out the second person and
15 asked for money in order to transfer him to another place, well, he
16 collected this sum of money, so I think that they realised that people
17 still had some money on them. That's what they thought, so they demanded
18 that it be handed over. So that might have been the reason, or perhaps
19 the reason was that they wanted to do what they intended to do in the
20 first place, and that was a sort of pretext.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 Mr. Marcussen, please resume.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Marcussen, I'm unsure about the exact time we
24 are here. Could you just clarify this with the witness.
25 MR. MARCUSSEN:
1 Q. 1065, I know it's difficult to keep track of precise dates, but
2 could you tell us approximately when the events you're talking about now
3 took place?
4 A. Those events took place, let's say, perhaps a week after -- one
5 or two weeks after our arrival, after we were put in that room. So that
6 was the period, let's say, before Bajram. Afterwards, it was the 10th
7 and 11th, and it was the Bajram holiday, and that's when some more
8 serious incidents occurred.
9 Q. 1065, Cupcic [phoen], Ismet, is that a person that you remember?
10 A. I think it was Ismail Topcic. Repic went up to the man and took
11 him by his ear. He wanted to cut it off with a knife. He put a knife to
12 it and told him to hand over his money and tell who else had money, and he
13 started to cry. He said he didn't know, he said he didn't have any
14 money, so that he would leave him alone. But Repic just cut the ear a
15 little bit and left him alone. He didn't touch him anymore after that.
16 Q. I'd like to ask you about a person with a nickname of Buco. Do
17 you know a person referred to by that nickname?
18 A. Buco, the person with that nickname, I learned of that name in
19 Batkovici. That's when I heard it. It was a largely-built man,
20 strongly-built man, or perhaps rather fat, and the person would come with
21 Zoks' group. He turned up with Zoks' group. And that person also stuck
22 knives or a knife into people's thighs, and he cut off a person's finger,
23 poked the knife into the person's hand and arm, and so on.
24 Q. Did he do that to you?
25 A. Yes. He also stabbed me in both hands and cut into my shoulder,
1 left shoulder.
2 Q. Do you have scars from that today?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Now, I'd ask if we could go into private session
5 for again a brief minute.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 6324-6325 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I believe that
7 you have about 50 to 55 minutes left. I'm just telling you for your
8 information, so you can prepare for the next questions after the break.
9 But it is now 10.30, and we will take a 20-minute break.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are back into open session.
13 But before we resume, the Chamber will read a short oral decision
14 regarding the lifting of the confidentiality for the transcript. I will
15 read slowly.
16 Given the oral motion presented by the accused on the 10th of
17 April, 2008, regarding the publication of portions of the transcript
18 which took place in private session on that same day, given that the
19 Chamber considers that the confidentiality of some portions of the
20 transcript identified hereunder can be lifted while respecting the
21 confidentiality of the witness, and I will read the relevant portions
22 which are now public.
23 Page 5968, line 13, to page 5972, line 7. And then pages 5982,
24 line 28, to page 5988, line 2. Then page 5988 [Realtime transcript read
25 in error "5998"], line 12, to page 59 -- there's a mistake in the
1 transcript. From pages 5988, line 12, to page 5989, line 4.
2 The references to the transcript are also the references in the
3 French transcript.
4 Very well. This being said, Mr. Marcussen, we've talked earlier
5 about the Belgrade trial. The Trial Chamber would like to have in its
6 possession a copy of the indictment or what replaces an indictment in the
7 local jurisdiction regarding the six accused of the trial that is now
8 taking place. We would like to have it as soon as possible, please.
9 Another thing that we would like to ask the Prosecution, and I
10 would like to ask of this in private session -- could we please move into
11 private session briefly.
12 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
2 MR. MARCUSSEN: I promised to try to find out where the still
3 photographs that were shown earlier to the witness come from, and I
4 understand that it is a still that is taken from a video that was
5 provided to the Office of the Prosecutor by Witness VS-27, who had been
6 preparing a documentary, and it's from that material that this particular
7 still has been taken. We, of course, hope to have VS-27 here and to be
8 able to clarify the origin of this with him, but that's the information I
9 have at this stage about the source of that particular photograph.
10 Q. VS-1067 -- 1065, we're now back in open session. After the
11 events that we talked about while we were in private session, what
12 happened to the detainees in the room you were in?
13 A. While we were there, as these groups changed, as I described a
14 moment ago, people were mistreated in the way I have described. Then
15 some of those people were taken out, and they never came back. Some
16 people were taken out to see what had happened outside, and that's it.
17 Q. Now, if you would look at the list that you have in front of you
18 on the screen. The people that you just mentioned that were taken out
19 and never came back, are they found on this page of the list? And if so,
20 with what numbers?
21 A. Yes, they are on the list. We said a moment ago that numbers 12,
22 13, 14, 15 were taken out and they didn't come back. The person under
23 number 16 also was taken out and didn't come back. The persons under 17,
24 18, 19 were also taken out, taken away, and they didn't come back.
25 Q. And the three people that are mentioned under 17, 18 and 19, do
1 you know whether they were related in any way?
2 A. Those three persons were three brothers.
3 Q. And do you know who took them out?
4 A. They were taken out by Repic's group.
5 Q. And sorry, I interrupted you. If you wouldn't mind continuing
6 down the list, please.
7 A. The person under number 20 was also taken out and he didn't come
8 back. The persons under 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26 were also taken out,
9 and they didn't come back.
10 Q. Now, I'd like to move on, then, to Bajram day. Could you tell us
11 what happened on that day? And if you can start just describing the day,
12 and then we'll probably have to go into private session in a little bit.
13 A. On that day, I don't remember the time when this happened, a
14 group came -- or, rather, this Repic man entered, and he asked us, as he
15 had done before, to talk about certain persons that he named. And he
16 asked whether we would write to him or tell him something about that.
17 Then he asked that fathers and sons come out. Some of those persons came
18 out. He sent them to the stage. After that, I think he noticed that
19 they were too few. Then he started selecting people, himself, the men he
20 wanted to choose, and they were sent to the stage too. And then he
21 ordered those men to get ready, and the others who were in the room were
22 ordered to move to one side and to sit down. And the people who were on
23 the stage had to take off their clothes and were forced to engage in oral
25 Q. How many people were on the stage?
1 A. I don't know exactly how many. I think there were two pairs of
2 father and son and perhaps about ten people in all. I can't remember
4 MR. MARCUSSEN: I would request if -- that we move to the third
5 page of the exhibits on the screen, provided that we still are in a
6 setting where the exhibit is not being shown outside the courtroom.
7 Q. VS-1065, without stating any names, on the page that you now see
8 before you, do you see the names of some of the people that were on the
9 stage who were forced to perform these acts? And if so, with what
11 A. Those men are under numbers 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65.
12 Q. Thank you. After this event, what happened?
13 A. When they were ordered to engage in oral sex, Repic walked around
14 in front of us and selected people who he would shoot at. At first, I
15 thought it was an air rifle, but when I saw that people were dying, that
16 people hit in the eye lost their eye, so I realised that it was a
17 different kind of weapon, a small-calibre rifle. I don't know much about
18 these things, though.
19 Q. Now, do you -- do you know the name of any of the people who got
20 killed? And if so, do you see them on the list in front of you?
21 A. They are on the list of men who were killed in the room. They
22 are under numbers 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, then --
23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Sorry to interrupt you. A brief moment in
24 private session, please.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar.
1 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN:
11 Q. What happened to the bodies of the people that had been killed by
12 Repic, as you just described?
13 A. After completing this act, if I can put it that way, we had to
14 carry out -- the men outside. I didn't go out; I stayed inside. Those
15 bodies were loaded onto a truck and were taken in an unknown direction.
16 We had to clean up everything so there wouldn't be any traces of blood,
17 so that no one could notice that something had happened. So all this was
18 done by two groups. In the first group were the men killed, and in the
19 second group there was a couple of bodies and the bed clothes and
20 blankets that were bloodied, and we had to clean it all up.
21 Q. Did -- the men who were carrying out the bodies, did they come
22 back into the room?
23 A. Those men never came back, never came back to this room where we
25 Q. The name of those people who went out and did not come back, are
1 they found on the list? And if so, under what numbers?
2 A. Yes, they are under numbers 48, 49, 50, 51, and 52.
3 Q. Sorry. Could you tell us what happened to the person listed
4 under number 53?
5 A. The person under number 53 was taken out after all these others
6 had been taken away, and the people who accompanied the dead men. He was
7 taken out, and one of us saw him cleaning up something outside. He also
8 didn't come back into the room.
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: Again, I'd ask for a brief moment in private
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Madam Registrar.
12 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
22 MR. MARCUSSEN:
23 Q. Are you -- did you know a person named Pezerovic, Zaim?
24 A. He also lived in our village, and he was detained with us in that
1 Q. Could you tell us if anything happened to him around the time we
2 are just talking about now, well, on Bajram day?
3 A. On that day when all these things were happening, I'm referring
4 to the oral sex and the murder of these men, a while later Repic took out
5 two men. Zaim was one of them and Sakib was the other. He chose those
6 two and told them to lie down. I couldn't see properly what happened to
7 them, but I heard from others that one had his throat slit and the other
8 was stabbed in the heart.
9 Q. And Sakib, do you know what his family name is or was?
10 A. Kapidzic.
11 Q. Did you witness anyone else being stabbed by Repic that day?
12 A. After the two of them, he climbed on to the stage and he ordered
13 Saban Bikic to lie down on the stage, and he also stabbed him in the
14 chest, in the heart. He left his knife there, and this person tried to
15 pull the knife out, probably to save himself, but he didn't succeed and
16 he was -- stayed there dead on the stage.
17 Q. There are two -- number 57 and number 58 on the list that you
18 have in front of you. Do you know what happened to those two persons?
19 A. Those two persons were killed on the stage with this
20 small-calibre rifle or whatever.
21 Q. And who did that?
22 A. Repic did it.
23 Q. Apart from the people whose names we have been talking about
24 today, were there other people that were killed that day?
25 A. I think that on that same day, I don't think there were others
1 killed except the ones I mentioned, but there were visits.
2 Q. And when you say "there were visits," what happened during those
4 A. Well, when I say "visits," I mean these groups coming in to where
5 we were, who replaced each other but who were there almost all the time,
6 and the events that we've been talking about; that they beat us, that
7 they cut us with knives, that they killed us, that they forced us to
8 perform oral sex, and all the other things.
9 Q. Were you, yourself, beaten by Repic or by his group on that day?
10 A. Well, whether it was actually on that particular day or a minute
11 before or a day before, I can't say, but, anyway, we all had to hand over
12 almost all our clothing, and they tried -- what they wanted to do was to
13 search us, to frisk us in detail. I had to take all my clothes off,
14 except my underwear, and they sent all of us up onto the stage. I was
15 sent up there too, and they hit me with some sort of iron bar or pipe.
16 Anyway, it was metal and round in shape. And from that blow, I might
17 have gone a step or two forward unconsciously, and then I returned. I
18 took several steps back because I was afraid that they would beat me
19 again, that they would beat me more.
20 Q. From -- in the period between Bajram day and the holiday called
21 Vidovdan Day, were more people being killed inside -- were more people
22 that were detained in the room killed?
23 A. I don't think so, not during that period from Bajram until
24 Vidovdan or St. Vitez Day, but on one occasion a group came in, whether
25 it was Zoks' group or a mixed group I'm not quite sure, and they also
1 beat us and would draw -- or, rather, cut into our skin the four "S"
2 signs on our backs.
3 Q. What would they cut the sign with?
4 A. With a knife.
5 Q. Did they cut that on the back of everyone?
6 A. Well, no, just one person. They carved the four "S" signs on his
8 Q. And were -- no, sorry, you've already answered that. I'm sorry.
9 If we move now, then, to Vidovdan day, would you describe to us
10 what happened on that day?
11 A. After Bajram, after that period when the first group of people
12 were killed, perhaps the following day or something like that, I don't
13 remember the exact time, a person turned up, calling out my name, and I
14 knew them. And the person was in police uniform, and I asked for
15 assistance to protect my father, if not me. And he said that the key
16 that was there somewhere in the SUP in Celopek or wherever and that an
17 intervention was already made and the key would no longer be there, but
18 it would be in the SUP of the Zvornik Municipality so that nobody would
19 be able to enter without a permit or something like that. So nobody
20 entered at that time. Nobody was able to enter through the door because
21 the key wasn't there, since the door wasn't open. And that day, during
22 that time when Repic turned up, the door happened to be open because that
23 was the time when we were brought our food. It was lunchtime. It was
24 about 2.00 or 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon, somewhere around there.
25 Anyway, he came in with an automatic rifle and once again asked
1 us to talk or anyone to tell him about the people that he was looking
2 for. He wanted us to tell him. Now, some people began talking, and he
3 shot them straight away. After that, he shot a burst of gunfire above
4 our heads, and I was on that side, and four people dropped down to the
5 floor. They fell. Three were injured, three were wounded, and two were
6 able to get up. The third one stayed lying down, and that was the person
7 whose sex organ had been cut off. He came up to him and shot him with
8 his pistol, and said that as far as he was concerned, he didn't want any
9 wounded people. So then he went back to where he was standing in front
10 of us and once again asked us who could tell him what.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, if you would rather
12 that we stopped, because obviously you're extremely moved ...
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He asked us once again if we could
14 tell him anything. However, the people were all in a panic by that time,
15 and they started shouting and saying that if anybody knew anything, they
16 should move over to the other side, that we should tell him what we knew.
17 And we were all fully aware that he would shoot us.
18 Then there was another burst of gunfire. He shot again, and he
19 ordered us to cross over from one side of the room to the other, where he
20 shot a burst of gunfire again. And I think that on the spot, he killed
21 about 20 people. There were 22 people or maybe 24 people who were
22 wounded, of which of those wounded two people died in that same room,
23 succumbing to the wounds.
24 After that, he said that we had to clean all the mess up and that
25 he would return in about half an hour, and that it all had to be clean,
1 and not leave any traces. And then he ordered us to sing the song he
2 told us to sing at the beginning. Whether he wrote the song or whatever,
3 I don't know, but we had to sing the song while we were cleaning
4 everything up and taking everything out, to leave the room clean and
5 clear of all the traces.
6 Q. VS-1067 [sic] -- excuse me, 1065, I'll ask if we can go to page 4
7 of the exhibit that's on the screen.
8 I would suggest that maybe we take a ten-minute break at this
9 stage, if we can.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have a short break.
11 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.
14 Mr. Marcussen, you have 20 minutes left.
15 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. VS-1065, if you would look at the screen, are the names of the
17 killed and --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please check
21 why Mr. Seselj does not receive interpretation.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm receiving it now.
23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 MR. MARCUSSEN:
1 Q. VS-1065, are there -- are there names of the deceased and wounded
2 people that you talked about, are they shown on the screen at the moment?
3 And I'd like the Registrar just to move the picture up just a
4 little bit so we get the last names. I think that's good, thank you.
5 A. Yes, they are.
6 MR. MARCUSSEN: Now, if we can go into private session for a very
7 brief moment again, please.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please.
9 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN:
20 Q. 1065, after this, were you -- were the people from Celopek moved
21 to be detained in another location?
22 A. Yes. After a day or two -- a day or two later after what had
23 happened in Celopek, those of us who remained there, who remained alive
24 and wounded, were transferred to the old prison in Zvornik.
25 Q. And how long, approximately, did you stay there?
1 A. Approximately a fortnight to 20 days, I don't quite remember, in
2 those premises.
3 Q. And about how many people from -- that you had been detained with
4 at Celopek were with you at the jail in Zvornik?
5 A. About 80, maybe a few more. That was the number, roughly, in the
6 prison there.
7 Q. And after having been detained in the jail in Zvornik, were you
8 taken somewhere else, where you were detained?
9 A. After some time, after we'd spent some time in Zvornik in the old
10 jail, they told us that we should make a list of everybody wounded and
11 injured. We didn't know why. And those who weren't wounded or injured,
12 after we'd made up that list, compiled that list, we were taken out a few
13 days later and transported by bus to Batkovici.
14 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I -- in the interests of time, I
15 will -- and for the sake of the witness, I will stop with the witness at
16 this point.
17 With respect to the exhibit that's on the screen, I propose that
18 we remove the last page, as I'm not going to discuss the particular
19 victims that are mentioned there. So we will, from the Prosecution --
20 sorry, we'll ask the Registrar if the Registrar would be kind enough to
21 remove the last page of this exhibit, and then this will end the direct
22 examination of the witness.
23 Now, I have a proofing note that was drafted up and has now been
24 translated that I would like to hand over to the accused in English and
25 B/C/S. Obviously, as the accused has not had this before -- sorry, I was
1 looking at the wrong thing. I, of course, understand if the accused
2 needs until tomorrow to digest the proofing note and do the
3 cross-examination of that tomorrow, but at least we managed to get the
4 proofing note done.
5 Thank you, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
7 Witness, I would not want to evoke such painful memories again,
8 but as a judge there are some items I would like to shed light on.
9 You said that your father was among the casualties. Was his body
10 found, or as of now do you still not know where your father's body is?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was found.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where was he buried?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is buried where we lived before,
14 in our village.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where was his body found?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly, but I think
17 it was at Crni Vrh, in the mass grave there.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another question. You talked
19 at length about Mr. Dusan Repic. Have you ever -- did you know his real
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think his name was
22 Dusan Vuckovic, nicknamed Repic.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you know what happened to
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A few years ago, I heard talk that
1 there were legal proceedings in Sabac against him, and I think he
2 admitted to killing 15 people in Celopek. And afterwards, there was a
3 trial in Belgrade for the six accused that I mentioned. He was one of
4 them. And I think he's in prison now. That was the information I had.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 Mr. Seselj, are you ready to start with the cross-examination,
7 after having read the proofing note?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that this witness
9 testified truthfully. I am sorry for the tragedy that he has had in his
10 life, and I'm not going to ask him any questions.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 I'll ask my fellow Judges if they have any questions to put to
13 the witness.
14 Very well. Witness, on behalf of my colleagues, I would like to
15 thank you for coming to The Hague, on the Prosecution's request, and we
16 of course extend all our condolences for this tragedy you've lived
17 through. So we really feel very sorry for what happened to you and
18 extend our condolences. We wish you all the best for your return home.
19 We'll now adjourn so that you may leave this courtroom. Because
20 there is an audience in the gallery, we'll have to close the curtains.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, tomorrow we have
23 the videos, I guess, as our schedule is concerned, so we'll see the
24 videos tomorrow. And obviously we will have no hearing on Thursday.
25 Mr. Marcussen, I would like you and Mr. Mundis to check
1 thoroughly the schedule for the witnesses to come. After May 5th, please
2 check that everything is on track and that we won't run into any
3 problems, as far as the scheduled witnesses are concerned. And if for
4 any reason one witness was not available, please try to have a backup
5 programme in store, which means, you know, that you need to have several
6 witnesses ready to appear, inasmuch as Mr. Seselj could also
7 cross-examine adequately and is well prepared for that. But we'll see --
8 we'll check this on a case-by-case basis.
9 Mr. Seselj, we have some time left, and I would like to know
10 whether there's some items that you would like to discuss.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I have a number of
12 administrative matters to raise.
13 First of all, I've just received these notes from the interview
14 of VS-1065, and last week the Prosecution said, bearing in mind the
15 situation that I'm in in the Detention Unit, that it would provide me
16 with a set of the relevant documents relating to that particular witness.
17 However, from these notes I see for the first time now that this witness,
18 on the 16th of August, 1993, talked to members of the centre of the
19 security services, I assume of the Muslim authorities; but I don't know
20 where, was it in Tuzla or somewhere else? I didn't have that document in
21 my possession. Of course, even if I did have it, my position would be
22 identical and I would not cross-examine this witness, because apart from
23 some matters of quantification and some details that you noticed, too,
24 during the examination-in-chief, I don't have anything to challenge on
25 the whole, in view of that testimony. I knew even before that killings
1 did happen in that place and that sexual abuse took place as well.
2 However, I have to criticise this manner on the part of the Prosecution
3 whereby I was not given -- provided with the sets of documents. So that
4 is my first objection and first comment.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, it would appear
6 that the accused -- or, rather, that the person in question met security
7 services in 1993. The accused would have liked to obtain those
8 documents, and he is once again complaining of the fact that the
9 Prosecutor did not disclose this information to him. Would you have
10 anything to tell us about this?
11 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes. According to our records, the document
12 was -- actually, the first in the bundle of documents that were disclosed
13 on the 17th of April with receipt number 325, which was the bundle of
14 material that was disclosed together with the other statements and the
15 transcripts of the witness' testimony in previous cases. So this
16 material was disclosed on the 17th.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, Mr. Seselj, apparently the
18 bundle was communicated or disclosed to you on the 17th of April, and the
19 receipt even bears a number, number 325. I don't know if this is the
20 case, but this is what Mr. Marcussen told us.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is not impossible,
22 Mr. President, because I received an official note having to do with this
23 witness, which is just a few sentences long. But that's not the
24 statement. There's no witness signature here. So it's not a report on
25 the interview, it's just an official note. And in our police force, the
1 practice is when an official note is compiled, the witness doesn't have
2 to sign, it's just a piece of information. But when the witness gives a
3 statement, then he signs.
4 So this is a misunderstanding, I assume, because I did receive
5 this official note, and it doesn't contain anything specific, nothing
6 special, except an identification of Dusan Vuckovic, Repic, but then it's
7 not a statement.
8 Then I withdraw the objection if Mr. Marcussen had this in mind,
9 but we had to clear the matter up.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you. And just to confirm, this is what I
11 had in mind, and that's all that I'm aware of that the Prosecution have.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My second comment is this, Judges:
13 The question of relevance in calling this witness at all. The witness
14 did testify about horrendous things, but you heard at the beginning of
15 the examination-in-chief that he was testifying about the events of the
16 26th of May or from the 26th of May onwards, and he is testifying -- or
17 he testified about the bestial behaviour of members of the Yellow Wasps.
18 And I think the OTP -- it's up to the OTP to prove that before the 26th
19 of April, 1992, that is to say, one month prior to that, that after that
20 date a single volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party remained in Zvornik.
21 They would have to prove that, and to prove that the Yellow Wasps have
22 anything to do with the Serbian Radical Party and me, personally, at all,
23 because otherwise there's no sense to all this. And I think the question
24 of relevance, you, as the Trial Chamber, should raise at this point.
25 I know that this is a very vivid example of the crimes that took
1 place. These crimes cannot be justified by anything, although identical
2 crimes were committed on the other side. But, of course, one crime does
3 not justify another crime. I agree with that. But let's see what that
4 has got to do with me.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj, that is
6 why the Trial Chamber requested from the Prosecution to obtain a copy of
7 the indictment of the Belgrade trial, so that we can make sure that we
8 understand exactly what's going on.
9 I have to tell you that at the present time between the
10 Radical Serb Party, yourself, and the Yellow Wasps, I am in a total mist
11 or a fog. We have to establish a link. In fact, maybe we will hear
12 other witnesses. We might get this document. You, yourself, will call
13 your own witnesses to shed some light on this whole matter. But for the
14 time being, I must say that we are in the dark, and we are trying to
15 establish some kind of link or guiding light. For the time being, we
16 didn't get any further precision, and this is why the Trial Chamber did
17 not insist.
18 Yes, Mr. Marcussen.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: Indeed, Your Honour, we will of course provide
20 further evidence on this particular issue.
21 As Your Honour and the accused knows, we are filling up the
22 schedule with witnesses that are becoming available, and what is
23 happening at the moment is that we're having crime-base Zvornik witnesses
24 being moved up to fill gaps in the schedule, so we haven't had a
25 possibility of presenting our evidence with respect to this crime site in
1 any coherent way.
2 We are fully aware of the problems that arise from the fact that
3 we have to basically throw in witnesses in the middle of the sequence of
4 other evidence. We, of course, regret that. We would have liked to
5 present our case in a more coherent fashion, but for practical reasons
6 that has not been possible.
7 As a legal point, I would stress that if the accused has
8 objections to the relevance of a piece of evidence, those objections
9 should be made before the evidence is presented. It has been clear all
10 the way along what this witness' evidence would be with respect to the
11 events he has just testified about, so objections to relevance should
12 have been made early on. I think it would not be appropriate for me to
13 make submissions on the issue of relevance before we've actually had the
14 evidence presented to the Court, but obviously it is our position that
15 the crimes committed in the different detention facilities in the Zvornik
16 areas were part of the overall plan that this case is about. And we're
17 also going to present evidence about the link between the specific
18 individuals mentioned as perpetrators and the accused. That will come
19 hopefully in a more coherent fashion later on.
20 Thank you.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 Mr. Seselj, what is your next point?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, late last week I was
24 informed about the appearance of this witness, and I only had the weekend
25 to look through the material relating to this witness. So I didn't have
1 a chance to indicate that the testimony was not relevant.
2 You noticed, when the Prosecutor was putting certain leading
3 questions in an impermissible way, I didn't wish to intervene, bearing in
4 mind the really difficult situation the witness is in. But I think it is
5 quite clear to everyone that the main problem here is relevance and that
6 the Prosecution, even though it is in such a critical situation regarding
7 witnesses, it must produce certain links and produce the results of its
8 investigations. They must prove that a single volunteer of the
9 Serbian Radical Party, after the 26th of April, was in Zvornik. And I
10 have produced documents showing that we attacked the Yellow Wasps in
11 public because of their criminal behaviour.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I wanted to hear
13 the translation until the end.
14 What you just told us now, you've already told this before, so we
15 understand your point of view. Would you like to raise another topic?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have nothing further to add
17 regarding this issue. What I would like to underline is the question of
18 the book by Carla Del Ponte, and I am waiting your official position.
19 One can see that there's a serious violation of the Statute and the
20 Rules of the International Tribunal. Clearly, she was exposed to
21 pressure to act in a certain way. She was not independent, as the
22 Prosecutor, and I think there are certain consequences that follow.
23 On the other hand, I draw your attention to the fact that I
24 haven't heard anyone officially reacting on behalf of the Tribunal
25 regarding lies spread in Belgrade that I met here in prison with the
1 counsel of Haradinaj, Ramush Haradinaj.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please, Mr. Seselj.
3 I will answer, but in tackling the last subject.
4 With regards to the meetings that you may have had with the
5 Haradinaj lawyers, I've asked the legal officer to check with the prison
6 authorities to see if you, indeed, had had some contacts, and the
7 Detention Unit replied that you had no contacts, indeed. So you would
8 not have been able to meet Haradinaj's attorneys, so that is to answer
9 the latter part of your intervention.
10 With regards now to the first part regarding the book that
11 Mrs. Carla Del Ponte wrote, at the present I haven't read this book yet.
12 Aside from some press clippings, I do not know what this book contains.
13 You're saying, "I'm expecting the Trial Chamber to adopt a position." I
14 don't know what position you want us to adopt. We would have be able to
15 identify exactly what is your request.
16 What do you want us to do, exactly? In order for the
17 Trial Chamber to take a position, to take a stand, or to have a position,
18 it would be important that your request be identified clearly. The
19 Prosecutor has to also reply, and then the Trial Chamber has to render a
20 decision. I do not know at this point in time what do you request of us,
21 exactly. Could you please be a little more precise, if you wish. You
22 can make an oral submission, if you wish, but you can also present a
23 written submission, registered in due form, and the Trial Chamber will
24 reply to this written motion. The Prosecutor will also submit his
1 So at this point in time, I do not understand exactly what you
2 want from us.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me simplify
4 things to the extreme.
5 Carla Del Ponte was the Chief Prosecutor of the
6 International Tribunal for many years. After leaving the Tribunal, she
7 published a memoir. In one sentence, she said that at the time, the
8 prime minister in the Serbian government, I add "the mafia
9 prime minister," Zoran Djindjic said, "Take Seselj and don't send him
10 back." And after that, she issued an indictment, and then I came to
11 The Hague of my own accord. For me, that is an admission of a flagrant
12 violation of the duties of a Prosecutor.
13 I'm not making a political speech, as Mr. Mundis said at our last
14 hearing. I'm just limiting myself to the legal extract from that book
15 and what follows from it. If that is true, then she's liable to criminal
16 responsibility, and then the Trial Chamber must take a position regarding
17 the validity of such a statement, because it leads to many consequences.
18 Then you can see how come you have false witnesses, the way in which they
19 tell their story, and so on.
20 But I think it is absolutely indispensable for the Trial Chamber
21 to take a position. And to begin with, I think you should give
22 instructions for the relevant portions of the book to be translated into
23 English and French, in fact all parts of the book in which my name is
24 mentioned. Perhaps that would be sufficient.
25 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I haven't read the book either, and
1 I'm not in a position to comment fully on the correctness of the
2 accused's interpretation of the one sentence that he's talking about.
3 The correct legal remedy in this situation, if the accused wants
4 to do something, is to make a motion alleging that there have been some
5 sort of abuse of prosecutorial power. That's what he should do.
6 Your Honours directed that, I think, last week, that if he wanted to
7 raise these sort of matters, it should be done in the form of a motion.
8 I think that's absolutely correct.
9 And if the accused thinks that there's a link between those
10 events and false evidence being presented in court, he must also prove
11 that and substantiate it.
12 Last week, the accused alleged that Prosecution counsel knowingly
13 is putting false evidence before this Trial Chamber. There must be some
14 sort of -- sorry, of substantiation of those kind of allegations. If the
15 accused has evidence that he wants to put before the Trial Chamber on
16 this issue, he should do so, but continuing to raise this in this manner
17 is inappropriate, in my respectful submission.
18 And if you want a translation of any parts of the book, he can
19 use the translation services of the Tribunal just as well as the Chamber
20 or the Prosecution can, so he can identify the passages he wants
21 translated and have them translated.
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I believe that
24 Mr. Marcussen has identified the problem very well. If you're
25 challenging, legally, and let's remain in the legal context, if you're
1 legally contesting anything to do with the book, the report -- the
2 rapport or the links that Mrs. Del Ponte had with the former
3 Prime Minister Djindjic, so if you're contesting those links and the
4 indictment, if I understand correctly, would be tainted because -- in a
5 way because the indictment would be, according to you, carried out
6 according to a request made by the prime minister at the time, you would
7 have to put down in writing, black on white, by way of a motion so that
8 the Trial Chamber be seized by this motion. The Prosecutor, of course,
9 as well can answer or reply if the indictment is contested or challenged,
10 and then the Trial Chamber will render a decision.
11 You must understand that this cannot be done orally. We must
12 follow the administrative ways.
13 You have the right, and Mr. Marcussen recognises it. He says
14 that if in the book some excerpts concern you, you have the right, by way
15 of a motion, to request that those passages be translated to you in your
16 own language so that you can back your submission. This is a possibility
17 that you have.
18 You're saying that you're expecting something from the
19 Trial Chamber, and I am telling you that we will intervene if -- or after
20 receiving your submissions, your arguments, and after receiving also the
21 submissions presented by the Prosecutor. At this point in time, I am not
22 excluding anything.
23 I'm also -- I could even ask Mrs. Carla Del Ponte to come and
24 explain what she meant. Nothing is impossible, but I am expecting you to
25 present your submissions. You have a team that works with you. They can
1 very well draft this motion.
2 Mr. Seselj.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think what
4 happened as a problem by far exceeds the interests of one accused in one
6 Of course, I am able already by tomorrow to prepare a written
7 filing, and they will do that and I will fax it to you tomorrow.
8 However, I'm drawing attention to two very major issues which do not
9 affect only my interests in this case, but unless there is a reaction to
10 them, they undermine the entire Tribunal.
11 I remind you of Article 16 of the Statute, and it says that the
12 Prosecutor must act independently as a separate body of the
13 International Tribunal. He may not ask or receive instructions from any
14 government or any other source. That is what the Statute says.
15 And in the book by Carla Del Ponte, it says: "Djindjic, in
16 connection with Seselj, has sent me only one request. 'Take him away and
17 don't send him back again.'" This is stated in Carla Del Ponte's book.
18 This is not a question of my interests in this case, but as
19 regards my interest, I will submit my submissions already tomorrow. But
20 this is of far greater importance for this Tribunal.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will then be
22 seized with a motion.
23 Mr. Marcussen, did you want to say something? No, you're sitting
24 down. Very well.
25 Mr. Seselj, do you have another issue to raise?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only if this may be of interest to
3 I can give you a copy of the statement of Witness VS-1031,
4 addressed to my legal associates. I now have the original of the
5 statement with the original stamp, and a few copies if this may be of
6 interest to you. This is my first contact with this witness by my legal
7 assistants. And I also have a copy for a representative of the
8 Prosecution. If you wish to have a copy, I could ask the usher to be
9 kind enough to give it to you.
10 One can see here that he stated that after Ramush Haradinaj was
11 acquitted on the 3rd of April, he --
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, VS-1031 certainly
13 benefits from protective measures. Let's not disclose any names which
14 would enable to identify the person.
15 You are handing me a statement signed by his own hand, in your
16 own -- in your language, which I don't speak. I don't know what this
17 contains. It's not 1031, it's 031, it's Witness VS-031.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I won't mention his
19 name at all. I just draw your attention to a sentence where he says that
20 on the 3rd of April, he learned that Haradinaj was acquitted.
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: There's no basis for the accused to read out any
22 parts of a statement from a witness who is to testify before the Court
23 without the witness being here. If there's some procedural point the
24 accused wants to raise, he can do that, but we're once again in a
25 situation where the accused reads out statements that have been presented
1 to him. It's completely out of context, and the accused should make some
2 proper use of court time and not read out these sort of statements in
3 this way in the courtroom.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 Mr. Seselj, you are producing this document. It is not necessary
7 to read, of course, this document, but what are you getting at, exactly?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted the Trial Chamber to
9 decide what to do, whether they will continue to insist on this witness
10 being a Prosecution witness, or whether he'll be a Defence witness, or no
11 witness at all. As far as I know, you issued a subpoena for this
12 witness. Is that right? I'm not quite certain about that, but I think
14 Whether there was this formal pressure in the form of a subpoena
15 or pressure from the Prosecution, he was due to come here last week. I
16 don't know exactly what happened, but clearly one can see from this
17 statement that under no circumstances will he be a witness for the
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: It might seem an odd request, but in light of the
20 impact that some of these statements have on witnesses outside the
21 courtroom, I would respectfully ask the Trial Chamber if we can redact
22 this part of what has just been going on in the transcript.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me consult with my fellow
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Trial Chamber
2 has deliberated on this and is deciding not to redact what has just been
3 said. However, the Trial Chamber would like to indicate that whenever it
4 is running into a problem that it becomes aware of, either through the
5 Prosecution, through the witness, or through the accused, the
6 Trial Chamber rules on this. There can be different decisions, there's
7 different solutions. It can be a contempt of court, a subpoena, wait and
8 see. There are different solutions. And as of now, we have not decided
9 anything, so there is no reason to mention the problem.
10 You attracted our attention on a new element, and we will
11 incorporate it when we assess the problem, but as of now we have not
12 decided anything. Therefore, please move on to another topic.
13 If you have no other topic to raise, I have a question for you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no other issues to raise.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is my last
17 Last week, you briefly said something, and I did not have time to
18 ask you some more information on this, because we were running out
19 of time, and this came right after a good number of other events. But
20 out of memory, I can say that last week, after different problems
21 connected with cross-examination and the 92 ter, Rule 92 ter, you said
22 that you envisaged -- that you were going to - I don't really know what
23 you wanted, but you said that if need be, you were thinking of not
24 showing any evidence when you were presenting your own case. This is
25 what I understood at least, and I wondered whether this had to do with
1 Rule 92 ter, or whether this has to do with something else, or whether
2 you believe that at this stage, there was no need to present any
3 evidence. You were not clear enough, and I did not really understand, so
4 could you please explain what you meant at the time?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as opposed to some
6 Prosecution witnesses who have a perfect memory and remember all the
7 details which occurred 15 or 16 years ago, my memory is not quite so
8 precise. But as far as I can remember, I didn't link this possibility
9 only to 92 ter witnesses, and surely this can be found in the transcript,
10 but I said if you continue to take away Defence witnesses, and unless the
11 problem of financing is resolved, there is a possibility that there will
12 not be a Defence case. I wasn't emphatic, nor was it a decision. I said
13 that this was a possibility, something that I had started to think about.
14 My Defence team has still not made a final decision about this,
15 and to the best of my recollection, I have now explained what it is I
16 intimated last week.
17 May I repeat once again, if there are many 92 ter witnesses, if
18 you snatch away from me Defence witnesses, and there are already 20 of
19 them that the Prosecution is counting on as their witnesses, though they
20 have signed a statement saying that they would be Defence witnesses, and
21 if the problem of financing is not resolved, it will not be possible to
22 have a Defence case.
23 And the last time we discussed finances, I said I wouldn't raise
24 it again until we reached the Defence case stage. If it's not resolved
25 by then, I don't see how I can produce evidence in my Defence. I already
1 have great problems with my associates, because they're not receiving any
2 remuneration, even though they're doing such a lot of hard work, more
3 than any other Defence counsel. And trusting my word, they have been
4 working very hard and very diligently, and now it appears that I have
5 cheated them, I have misled them.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
7 Regarding the technical issue of financing your Defence, two or
8 three weeks ago, I don't remember the exact date, the Trial Chamber took
9 stock of the situation and it seems that this is how things stand at the
10 moment. Registry was making some research on your indigency status,
11 because all this can only work if the Registry notes -- the translation
12 is not working?
13 Very well. Obviously, there was a technical problem. Let me
14 resume. Regarding this very technical issue of how your Defence is to be
15 financed -- and while I'm talking I would like the usher to remove the
16 blind because there's no need for the blind to be there. So regarding
17 the very technical item of your -- financing of your Defence, two or
18 three weeks ago, I can't remember the exact date, but the Trial Chamber
19 took stock of the situation with the competent services at Registry, and
20 according to the information we obtained, the Registrar was checking
21 whether you were still an indigent through different steps, through a
22 series of steps that the Registry is taking.
23 This is a two-stage approach. The principle of payment is
24 accepted, but before paying, the Registrar must absolutely make sure that
25 you are truly indigent, and this is where there is a lock -- a checking
1 system that the Registry is -- this is where the Registry is at. And
2 obviously so far the Registrar has not -- is not convinced that you are
3 fully indigent. So you may be fully indigent, partially indigent. I
4 don't know what your financial status is.
5 The Registrar has met with you, has sent you letters, and
6 probably asked you to answer a number of questions put to you by him.
7 The Trial Chamber is not meant to intervene in the everyday running of
8 this Tribunal, except if at one point in time there is an infringement, a
9 serious infringement of the rights of the Defence. In such a case, the
10 Trial Chamber either proprio motu or on request can take steps and
11 intervene, but as of now we have been told that they were checking
12 whether you were truly indigent.
13 This is where things stand at the moment. If they have proof
14 that you cannot pay these sums because of your destitution, they will pay
15 your associates. There's no problem there. This is the direct
16 consequence of the decision made on how you are to finance your Defence,
17 but the lock, because this is a true lock, is the question: Is
18 Mr. Seselj truly indigent? And I think I'm reading between the lines,
19 but I believe the Registrar so far has not been fully convinced that you
20 are totally indigent. And the burden of proof, I'm sure you know this,
21 the burden of proof is on you. The accused must absolutely demonstrate
22 and prove that he is indigent. He has the onus of that. And obviously
23 the Registrar so far seems to say that as things stand now, he is not
24 fully convinced that you are truly indigent. This is where we stand now.
25 For three or four weeks, the Trial Chamber has set this problem
1 aside, because last time you told us officially that you would no longer
2 raise it. But you've just raised it again, which obviously means that
3 the problem has not been solved yet.
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'd like to tell you that the
5 question of determining whether you're indigent or not depends to a great
6 extent on whether you fully collaborate with the Registry. You are to
7 collaborate with the Registry to determine what your financial situation
8 is. It all depends on you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Judges, I wouldn't
10 have raised this issue at all, but I was only illustrating the reasons
11 why I intimated that I might refrain from producing Defence evidence. I
12 really think that the discussion regarding the financing of my Defence
13 has been completed. Whatever I had to do with the Registrar, I did so by
14 2003. I will not collaborate by providing information about the property
15 of members of my family.
16 The fact that the Registrar doesn't believe me, doesn't trust me,
17 it's up to him. That Registrar will never believe anything I say. You
18 remember how I criticised him for his behaviour on the basis of the
19 Milosevic transcript. There's the language of facts and there's the
20 language of guesswork. According to the language of facts, he doesn't
21 have any arguments to show that I'm capable of playing my Defence.
22 What does it mean, that I am indigent? I have four children.
23 Three are under age, and my wife is not working. So I'm not in a poor
24 financial status in relation to conditions in Serbia, but not high enough
25 for me to cover the costs of Defence in this Tribunal, which are much
1 higher than in any national court. That is the situation. I am not
2 poor, I am not so poor that I don't have bread to eat, but from what I
3 have, nothing can be separated because the children would have nothing to
5 And the Registrar must provide a report about what he has found.
6 Ever since 2003, he hasn't done it. A real study about it. He has done
7 it in all the other cases. He hasn't done it in my case. I consider my
8 cooperation with the Registrar completed. If he has evidence that I'm
9 capable of paying my own Defence, let him produce the evidence. He
10 undertook the investigation, not me.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you're telling us
12 that you have four children, four [as interpreted] that are still minor,
13 and that your wife does not work. I assume that in your country, in
14 Serbia, there are tax return files. I guess Serbian citizens pay their
15 taxes when they have income. And even if they don't have any income,
16 they have to file a tax return, an income tax report. I guess that your
17 wife has to file an income tax report, just like you do. If you made
18 this tax -- income tax return for 2005, 2006 and 2007, you must have a
19 copy of them, and normally on the tax file, you know exactly what the
20 financial standing of a person is. If, on this tax report, it says that
21 neither your wife nor you can be taxed for income tax, it proves that
22 you're indigent.
23 Why won't you communicate a document of the kind to the Registry?
24 This would prove that you are willing to collaborate to this procedure to
25 find out whether you're indigent or not. The best solution would be for
1 you to give the Registrar a copy of all your income tax reports. I'm
2 sure that they would give an idea of your true situation, your true
3 financial standing, because if the Registry has doubts on your real
4 estate property, for example, or on your possible stocks that you may
5 have, in case you had accounts -- bank accounts outside Serbia or if you
6 had property outside Serbia, maybe in the countries where you lived for a
7 few years, why don't you ask those banks to give you a certificate
8 proving exactly how much money is on those bank accounts?
9 Everything is very simple. Independently of your personal
10 situation, with this position, you know, you're jeopardising four people
11 who have been working for you. I'm not going to give any names, but
12 everybody knows this, Mr. Krasic [Realtime transcript read in error
13 "Krajisnik"] mainly, all these people who've been working for you. Or
14 maybe they did this voluntarily and free of charge. I said Krasic, not
15 Krajisnik, K-R-A-S-I-C. So maybe these people are waiting for a salary,
16 and maybe it's the position that you've adopted that no payment is
18 To sum things up, you have the possibility of giving the Registry
19 your income tax reports. This is probably very straightforward. And you
20 could also send to the Registry your bank statements on your foreign bank
21 accounts, if you have any. You cannot ask the Trial Chamber to become
22 accountants or tax experts in order to check your financial standing. We
23 could do this, but we have many other things to do, we have much more on
24 our plate.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have provided all
1 the figures to the Registrar in due course. It's a good thing that you
2 raised the question of tax returns.
3 In Serbia, there's a minimum on annual income below which no tax
4 is payable, nor is it reported. My family and I were always below this
5 minimum. We were never liable to taxes, neither me nor my family, when
6 it comes to annual income.
7 And the Registry has received from the state authorities in
8 Serbia all the necessary information. There's really no need to discuss
9 this matter further. I really wouldn't have raised it if you hadn't
10 asked me about this possibility that I had mentioned of refraining from
11 producing Defence evidence. I wouldn't have mentioned it, really.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 It's time to adjourn. We will resume tomorrow at 9.00 a.m., and
14 this hearing will be devoted to the videos. I think there's about an
15 hour and a half or two hours worth of videos, so that will keep us busy
16 for the morning.
17 Have a nice day, and we will resume tomorrow.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.40 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day
20 of April, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.