Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6426

1 Tuesday, 6 May 2008

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 8.31 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you call the

6 case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This

8 is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Registrar, today we are Tuesday, the 6th of May, 2008. I would

11 like to greet the representatives of the Prosecution. I would like to

12 greet Mr. Seselj, as well as all the people who are assisting us.

13 I'm about to read out an oral decision, which is fairly short.

14 After that, I will ask the usher to drop the blinds to bring in the

15 witness into the courtroom.

16 This decision is an oral decision relating to the confidentiality

17 of exhibits that have been admitted during the testimony of

18 Reynaud Theunens. I shall read it out in private session, since we're

19 going to be referring to a number of documents.

20 Registrar, let's move into private session, please.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

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Page 6427











11 Pages 6427-6430 redacted. Private session.















Page 6431

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22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, this witness gave just one

25 single statement to The Hague investigators so far, and that was in 1997.

Page 6432

1 And then, after that, he testified in two trials, and they proofed him

2 for testimony in a third trial. Now, why that never took place is

3 something I don't know, but already in 2003 I was informed of the

4 testimony of this witness enjoying protective measures in the trial

5 against me here. That is to say, five years ago, that's when I received

6 the information.

7 Now, this witness came to The Hague, and on Sunday he was

8 subjected to the -- well, it should have been a proofing session, whereas

9 in fact he was subjected to an interview in the capacity of a suspect,

10 himself. He was never here before as a suspect.

11 Now, we have a written statement by the Croatian authorities that

12 there are no legal proceedings against him at all in Croatia underway,

13 and I have an oral confirmation from Belgrade that there are no pending

14 legal proceedings against him in Serbia, whereas The Hague investigators,

15 at the beginning of the interview that was recorded by video camera, and

16 last night at 1900 hours I received the transcript of that interview and

17 it covers approximately 100 printed pages, they informed him that they

18 were now interviewing him in the capacity of a suspect. He was offered

19 the services of counsel, and a counsel was placed on standby. And then

20 the witness said that he didn't need counsel for the time being, but if

21 need be, he would request for counsel's assistance.

22 This is such a flagrant example of intimidation of a witness by

23 the Prosecutor that there is no precedence in any trials before this

24 Tribunal thus far.

25 Now, I don't know whether you've received the 100 pages of the

Page 6433

1 transcript of the interview. If so, then I'd like to draw your attention

2 to page 3 and 4, where, in a very official tone, he is being informed

3 that he could be treated as a suspect, responsible for certain acts,

4 which pursuant to the Statute of this Tribunal, he can be held

5 accountable and tried. And then he is informed of his rights, he's read

6 his rights, and they say, "Everything that you say will be recorded and

7 could be used as evidence against you in later proceedings before this

8 Tribunal, including the possibility of a trial." So the Prosecutors are

9 lying to him in his face. There are no new trials before this Tribunal,

10 and this Tribunal cannot do anything to this witness. But they're lying

11 to him to try and instill fear in him and intimidate him, and I see that

12 from the transcript later on that they didn't manage to put fear into his

13 mind. But as the Trial Chamber, you must enforce rigorous sanctions at

14 this attempt at intimidating the witness and instilling fear in him,

15 because this has not happened in any trial thus far before this Tribunal.

16 Then they go on to tell him that the tape that records the

17 interview can be used as evidence, and he is offered the services of

18 counsel. His response is, "As I don't know what the questions are going

19 to be, can I change my mind later on?" So he was taken aback and didn't

20 know what to expect either, quite obviously. And then they go on to tell

21 him that at any time if he feels he needs the assistance of counsel, he

22 will be given one, because he's on standby waiting somewhere, the mobile

23 telephone is on, and he can be called in for assistance at any moment.

24 Now, I consider, and I have no reason to fear the testimony of

25 this witness at all, but in his previous statement there is no

Page 6434

1 incriminatory matter against me. In these 100 pages from the transcript

2 Sunday, there is not a single word in which he accuses me or the

3 volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party of anything. Quite obviously, he

4 was never a volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party himself. He met me

5 once when I presented him with a Chetnik cockade, and that's all. And

6 you can see this from the available material. It's all evident there.

7 However, the OTP did try something. It tried to take the witness by

8 surprise and to gain something for themselves, a statement against the

9 Serbian Radical Party, a statement against me personally and so on, and

10 that is the gist of the interview throughout.

11 Although they cautioned him that he is a potential suspect and

12 that these -- yet in these 100 pages, there's nothing here that can be

13 ascribed to him as incriminatory material, so why is he then a potential

14 suspect? We don't see that from these 100 pages of the transcript. He

15 was told that he was a potential suspect to instill fear into him and to

16 try to get him to try and speak the way we've seen many other witnesses,

17 false witnesses, speak in this courtroom, not to have to mention their

18 names.

19 I think that as the Trial Chamber, before the beginning of the

20 testimony of this witness, you have to take a stand in the matter, and in

21 my opinion the OTP cannot pass without being issued sanctions for what

22 they have done. We even see that their false expert Reynaud Theunens

23 took part in the interview, on the one hand as a neutral and objective

24 expert here, and on the other hand as somebody who is exerting pressure

25 and coercion against a Prosecution witness. And we see exactly when he

Page 6435

1 comes into the interview, when he joins in, it was towards the end, as an

2 additional pressure upon the witness.

3 So that's what I wanted to tell you before the

4 examination-in-chief started.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we have a few issues related

6 to Mr. Seselj's intervention. So the situation is as follows:

7 This witness is coming to testify. He is a Prosecution witness.

8 This witness has given a statement in December 1997. Seemingly,

9 yesterday, during the proofing session, pursuant to Rules 42 and 44 of

10 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, you reckoned he was a suspect, that

11 is, his status. I don't have the 100 or 120 pages of the transcript of

12 the recording. Seemingly, you have recorded the questions and answers

13 with this particular witness, pursuant to Rule 43 of the Rules of

14 Procedure and Evidence. And in light of Rule 43 of the Procedure and

15 Evidence, we read as follows, and let me quote:

16 "The content of a recording and transcript, if the suspect

17 becomes an accused ..."

18 According to what I have heard, we have a transcript of the

19 recording, because we have a document, is that right, if I'm not

20 mistaken. The accused Seselj is telling us that he has checked, and

21 according to him, to date there are no proceedings against this person.

22 So how does it stand today? What's his status? Why did you give

23 him this status? What are your intentions?

24 Let me remind you that we are in open session, so let's avoid

25 referring to anything that might identify the witness, unless you feel

Page 6436

1 that it is better to move into private session because some of your --

2 the answers could identify him.

3 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 With this issue, I might like to go into more detail, and then we

5 might have to go into closed session. But since this issue is addressed

6 in open session, I would like to respond publicly. And I'm sorry, I

7 apologise in advance for my comments. They may sound vague at times, but

8 this is only designed to protect the identity of the witness.

9 The witness's testimony has been recorded as a potential suspect.

10 This recording has been disclosed to Mr. Seselj yesterday. What this

11 transcript contains -- well, the testimony of the witness in December

12 1997 clearly show, and I will not go into any detail here, but clearly

13 show that he was in a particular place which is mentioned in the

14 indictment and that he took part in a number of things. I shall not go

15 into any detail here, since he has not testified about this topic yet.

16 Whatever the case may be, we had reason to believe that this

17 witness was a suspect, and that was the reason why we had made no

18 recording in the past. We cannot -- I cannot answer that question now,

19 why this was not done at the time, but whatever the case may be, the

20 Prosecution felt that he should be entitled to the rights of any accused,

21 pursuant to Rule 43 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. So, of

22 course, he cannot be prosecuted by this Tribunal, but we cannot exclude

23 that another prosecutor in another country may wish to prosecute him and

24 that proceedings may be instigated against him. So we don't really

25 understand why the Prosecution would wish to intimidate its own

Page 6437

1 witnesses. That is not our practice, has never been our practice, and we

2 don't see in what way this could be justified. The only reason was to

3 protect the witness. This is why this was done this way.

4 These are the comments I have to make regarding this particular

5 issue, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, before I give the floor to

7 Mr. Seselj, Witness, without giving us your name, it seems that

8 yesterday, Sunday, you had an interview with the OTP. The OTP suggested

9 to you to be assisted by a counsel because you may, in the future,

10 potentially be prosecuted for facts which took place in the former

11 Yugoslavia, and in order to provide you with the adequate guarantees in

12 case of any proceedings, a counsel has been suggested. You declined the

13 assistance of such a lawyer.

14 Is this how things happened yesterday or Sunday, on Sunday?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Assistance of a lawyer was offered

16 to me, but then since I do not believe that I've done anything wrong

17 during the war, after the war, or later, I saw no reason to have a

18 lawyer.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Then I have one

20 last question for you.

21 This procedure that was observed by the Prosecutor by which you

22 were told you could be a suspect and you may benefit from the help of a

23 lawyer, did this have -- did this make any pressure on you or did it not

24 have any affect on you?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was a bit surprised,

Page 6438

1 because before, when I came here, I was never offered the services of a

2 lawyer, so I was a bit surprised. I'm still curious about this, to find

3 out who it is that can press criminal charges against me. I would like

4 to find that out, if possible, after this trial.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

6 Having heard the Prosecutor and the witness, Mr. Seselj, what

7 would you like to add?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Once again, I point out the fact

10 that it's been 11 years from the first time this witness was heard, and

11 it is only now that he is being told that he's a suspect.

12 Counsel for the Prosecution here, before you, said a few moments

13 ago that of course it is impossible for this Court to try this witness,

14 but then why do they lie to this witness, saying that that was a

15 possibility? Look at the third page of the transcript, the fourth

16 paragraph. It says:

17 "Everything that you say will be recorded and can be used against

18 you as evidence in some later proceedings before this Court, including a

19 trial. Do you understand that?"

20 That's what they told him, so they lied to him.

21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, according to me, the

22 situation is as follows: You are saying that what happened on Sunday and

23 on Monday intimidated the witness, that those were intimidations uttered

24 towards him. The Presiding Judge of this Trial Chamber put questions to

25 the witness, and he deems that, and I agree with this, that he did not

Page 6439

1 undergo some intimidation. So I do not think that you can do this. You

2 cannot say that during the proofing session, during the transcript that

3 was made only in order to give you the right statements of the witness,

4 this was the only reason why this was done in such a way. In other

5 words, it would not have been done in this way in accordance to Rule 43.

6 In accordance to Rule 43, the only thing that would have been done is to

7 audiotape the witness. But a transcript was made so that you can get, in

8 B/C/S or in Serbian, the right document so that you know that what

9 happened happened. You cannot now reiterate your argument, and you

10 cannot contest the procedure.

11 We should start now with the examination of the witness.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj, indeed, I

13 absolutely share the opinion of my colleague. She said, rightfully so,

14 that the witness, if he was in fact astonished by this fact, was

15 nevertheless not intimidated, so that's a nuance there. And it would

16 seem, and you have argued an interesting legal point, that it would seem

17 that from what you were able to read in the sentence where the Prosecutor

18 informs the witness of his rights, that there could be a procedure

19 instigated against him, or that proceedings may be instigated before this

20 Tribunal. And you say that no other cases will be heard before this

21 Tribunal, but I think that the Prosecutor must have read the sentence

22 which is drafted in the Rule, and the Rule -- when the Rules were made,

23 were drafted, they did not bear in mind that the Security Council will

24 end the mandate of this Tribunal at a certain point in time.

25 The Prosecutor was only reading the Rule according to the text

Page 6440

1 that is in the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of this Tribunal, without

2 really noticing this problem. You raised the issue, we understand, but

3 the question that we have to deal with, and my colleague basically

4 explained it brilliantly, is as follows: If there is a witness that

5 underwent some pressure because he was told that he may be considered as

6 a suspect, the Prosecutor established a procedure because of this, and my

7 colleague, rightfully so, said that it would seem that this procedure was

8 instigated for you so that you can realise what the witness may have said

9 during the proofing session so that nothing is concealed. So, basically,

10 it would be really ridiculous if the Prosecutor wants to guarantee the

11 rights of the witness and that he wants to inform you that he may

12 prosecute the witness. So that is the situation.

13 This is what I perceive -- this is how I see the situation, but

14 what -- and now I'm speaking on behalf of my colleagues. What we would

15 like to know is what this witness saw when he was present. What can he

16 tell us about the volunteers, about the events that went on? That's

17 what's really important.

18 Now, if at some point in time it seems that the witness may have

19 taken place [as interpreted] in some combat operations, I will myself

20 tell him to be careful and to know that he does not have to answer

21 questions that may incriminate him.

22 So this is what we have before us, and as my colleague put it so

23 well, we would like the Prosecutor to begin his examination-in-chief,

24 unless you wish to raise another issue or something else regarding this.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I would gladly admire your

Page 6441

1 brilliant interpretation of legal principles, but quite simply I am not

2 capable of doing that. There's something from deep within me that

3 doesn't allow me to do that.

4 There are two points here. One is the subjective one: Has the

5 intimidation of this witness succeeded? The witness expressed his

6 psychological state at the time as surprise, so he did not confirm that

7 he was afraid.

8 From these transcripts, we also see that the OTP did not achieve

9 the result they wished to achieve. They did not question him about the

10 possible allegations against him. They questioned him about me. And we

11 see, on the basis of the witness's answers, that they haven't intimidated

12 him enough.

13 There is an objective thing involved as well, and that is that

14 this is proof of intimidation. If you are claiming that telling a

15 witness, 11 years after he gave a statement, that he became a suspect

16 only two days ago, then that is really brilliant on your part, but it's

17 not the kind of brilliance that I can admire.

18 So that would be it.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are now going to

20 start the examination-in-chief.

21 Mr. Prosecutor, whenever you wish to move into open session,

22 that's your prerogative. Right now, we are in open session, but if you

23 wish to move into private session, it's your prerogative.

24 MR. DUTERTRE: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

25 Examination by Mr. Dutertre:

Page 6442

1 Q. Witness, I am going to call you for the purposes of this trial

2 "Witness 002." From time to time, I will also move into private session

3 to put some questions to you, and if you feel that a question was put to

4 you that may make you reveal your identity, you can of course request the

5 Trial Chamber to move into private session or not to give those answers,

6 and then the Chamber will rule on this.

7 Now, very briefly, I would like to move into private session.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Registrar, private

9 session, please.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

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Page 6446

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11 [Open session]

12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness 002, could you please explain to us, what role did the

14 media play in your decision to take part in the conflict?

15 A. Well, on TV there was quite a bit about the war conflict,

16 especially in Croatia, especially the fighting in Vukovar at the time.

17 I, personally, felt this patriotic pressure, that I should go and fight

18 in Vukovar.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm terribly sorry to

20 interrupt.

21 You mentioned that you studied something at university. I don't

22 know what you studied exactly, but if you went to university you must

23 know history, you must know the history of your country. What I would

24 like to know is the following: A Serb citizen at the time who found out

25 that there was a conflict in Croatia, would the first reaction be to go

Page 6447

1 defend his country? First of all, what was the country at the time, was

2 it Serbia or was it the former Yugoslavia? And what did you do, in fact,

3 exactly? It would be interesting that you tell us about it. How did you

4 go about it, exactly?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the first reason was that I

6 felt duty-bound in terms of my oath, and I thought that all of those who

7 had violated their oath -- all of those who had violated their oath are,

8 in fact, rebels against Yugoslavia. At that moment, Croatia was not a

9 recognised state. It was part of Yugoslavia. For me, they were all

10 rebels. That was one of the reasons. There was another matter, too.

11 Since I know the history of the former Yugoslavia and Serbia

12 quite well, the republican borders at that time were quite doubtful as

13 far as the Serbs were concerned, in my view. Those who created

14 Yugoslavia did not make such borders. They were made only subsequently,

15 in 1945, so I never considered myself to be a Croat or a citizen of

16 Croatia.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly, at

18 the time you were a Yugoslav, and you went as a Yugoslav to defend

19 Yugoslavia. Regardless of the borders of Yugoslavia, your main interest

20 was to defend Yugoslavia because you were under oath. You didn't tell us

21 what oath you took exactly. Maybe you could tell us what was this oath

22 that you took. And I would also like to know if what you did was part of

23 a defence concept of Yugoslavia.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, look. I did my military

25 service in the army of the then Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Page 6448

1 When the conflict in Vukovar started, the Socialist Federal Republic of

2 Yugoslavia was still in existence, as far as I know. The successor of

3 that state was the -- what was it called? The Republic of Yugoslavia,

4 the FRY.

5 When I gave my oath, it said that if necessary, I would lay down

6 my life for protecting the borders of the SFRY, so I felt duty-bound in

7 terms of my oath. However, that was not the only motive that led me to

8 go to Vukovar. On the other hand, I felt more like a Serb than a

9 Yugoslav.

10 It is hard to explain this, because in our country in Yugoslavia,

11 there were Serbs, Croats, other ethnicities, all with equal rights.

12 Whoever wanted to could be a Yugoslav, too. No one prohibited them from

13 doing that. My idea of being Yugoslav was to have a mixed marriage so

14 that no one would feel bothered in any way. If there are two parents, a

15 Serb and a Croat, then the child could say that he or she was a Yugoslav,

16 which is a compromise, without offending either side.

17 During the war, it even sounded like betrayal if a person said

18 that he or she was a Yugoslav at the moment when there could be a strict

19 statement of whether you were a Serb or a Croat. Now, I really don't

20 know to what extent this responds to what it was that you had asked me.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have answered

22 very clearly, according to my expectations. I don't have any additional

23 questions to put to you.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

Page 6449

1 Mr. President, for these precisions.

2 Q. Witness 002, you mentioned on page 21, line 10 of the transcript,

3 that you felt a certain patriotic pressure. Could you please elaborate

4 on this?

5 A. Well, it's like this: On television, we would see pictures from

6 the battle-front the whole time, and then in the place where I was, my

7 friends and I would go into cafes, sing Serb songs and things like that,

8 so I personally considered that it wasn't enough to sing songs in cafes,

9 that what we needed to do was to go -- now, whether then or later on,

10 there were various political parties and what kind of promotions were

11 held, rallies on a national basis, and probably this had a great

12 influence on everything. But from this point in time, I can't remember

13 now exactly whether anybody wielded influence on me or what influenced me

14 most, whether it was television programmes that existed just prior to the

15 war, during the war and after the war. It was all general confusion, as

16 far as I am concerned, so that the possibility for political manipulation

17 was vast, because -- look at it this way : All we Serbs, who through

18 force of circumstance happened to be in Croatia and had our property in

19 Croatia, all of us, when we heard of this border, Virovitica-Karlobag,

20 were very enthusiastic and that was quite normal. Now, whether that was

21 realistic, whether our enthusiasm was realistic or not, that's another

22 matter. We can only look at it from today's aspect, but at that time it

23 was all quite different. It was something quite different.

24 Q. (redacted), you mentioned the border Karlovac-Karlobag. Could

25 you tell us who at the time before you joined, who bandied about that

Page 6450

1 idea of a border?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Prosecutor. You

3 mentioned the name of the witness, you've mentioned it. Could we have it

4 redacted? There is an indication that the name should be here but as

5 what you are saying can be heard, we will prepare an order for this to be

6 redacted.

7 Mr. Registrar, line 15, page 24, could we have the name redacted,

8 please.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the

10 Prosecutor.

11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness 002, you mentioned the border, Karlovac-Karlobag. Who,

13 before you joined in Vukovar, had bandied about that idea of that border?

14 A. Well, look, it's like this: I can't claim now when I heard about

15 this -- well, to respond to your question, it was Mr. Seselj's idea.

16 Whether it was somebody else's idea prior to that, I can't say. I

17 personally think that the basic idea came from Vojvoda Misic in the

18 1920s, but let's leave that aside.

19 So I heard this idea from Mr. Seselj, not personally, of course,

20 but via television, and we all talked about it. I personally at that

21 point in time was a great supporter of that idea, because, privately

22 speaking, I --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you talked about the

24 Vojvoda Misic. In French, we see the date -- I heard "912," and here in

25 English it's "1920." Who is this vojvoda called "Misic"?

Page 6451

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vojvoda Misic was one of the most

2 famous Serb military leaders and, to his merit, is the famed Serb arms.

3 Now, I don't know whether you would find it interesting for me to give a

4 lecture in history, but what is interesting is that he was sent by the

5 king in 1920, as far as I know, to assess the situation in Croatia and to

6 submit a report. And it was his proposal that Yugoslavia should not be

7 created, that the state should be broken up and that a Greater Serbia

8 should be established, precisely within the borders, as I understand it,

9 that Mr. Seselj mentioned later on in his political programme of the

10 1990s and perhaps even before that.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. Witness 002, you mentioned to us that there was perhaps a

14 possibility of a large-scale manipulation. What did you mean by that?

15 A. Well, it's like this: We all had, at the time, if I can put it

16 this way, feelings of a Greater Serbia. My house was in Vukovar. It was

17 normal and logical that as a Serb, I gravitated to the fact that it

18 should be Serbia, especially as, in my opinion, that would have been

19 logical, because that area of Krajina belonged to Serbia, in my view,

20 especially -- well, if you look at Srem, the natural boundaries of Srem

21 is in Vukovar, not on the Danube River. So on the basis of that,

22 everything that took place, all the television programmes and all the

23 fighting that was shown, in fact, raised, how shall I put this, combat

24 morale and our desire to achieve -- well, I didn't think about

25 Greater Serbia at the time. What I considered was that it should all be

Page 6452

1 Yugoslavia. But as -- well, it's like this: It's very difficult for me

2 now to talk about this in precise terms and tell you what I actually

3 thought in 1990 and 1991.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness 002, we know that you became a volunteer.

5 What was the date?

6 A. That was at the beginning of -- no, it was around the 20th, 23rd,

7 24th, 25th of September, perhaps, 1991. I can't give you a precise date.

8 Q. Where did you go when you became a volunteer? To which town did

9 you go?

10 A. Well, I first went to Sid. Is this open session or closed

11 session?

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are currently in open

13 session. Would you like to move into closed session?

14 Private session. Let's move into private session, please.

15 [Private session]

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15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like you to

21 clarify something, please.

22 You told us that you had no interest in being incorporated in the

23 army, and that is why you left and became a volunteer. Given that we've

24 heard a lot about the volunteers here, we were told that they were part

25 of the army. Could you shed some light on this, please? Does this mean

Page 6455

1 that you were part of a group which was not part of the army, in other

2 words, a group which was fighting and taking part in the fighting,

3 per se, without being part of the army?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only advantage that I could

5 have had as a volunteer was to choose where I wanted to go to fight.

6 Now, how volunteers were sent and how this was organised, in my case it

7 was organised through the army, once again. And where I signed up to

8 join the volunteers, I think that was -- well, I don't know the address,

9 but I think it was called Kraljevica Marka Street. Anyway, whether that

10 was under the control of the police, the milicija or the army, I'm not

11 quite sure. I received a bus ticket to take me to the place where I was

12 supposed to go, and that bus ticket was paid for me, so that was some

13 sort of private arrangement, not under police or military arrangement,

14 because they couldn't have paid for my ticket that way.

15 In my opinion, the only advantage that I had as a volunteer was

16 that you could choose where you wanted to go and fight.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, basically what you're

18 telling us now, we hear it for the first time, and it is an important

19 point. We can delve into this subject, actually, more in-depth.

20 There was some text and documents shown before this Tribunal

21 which established the following situation: During the war, and I use the

22 word "war" and I put it in brackets, two things took place; people who

23 were in the army and who were to be called as soldiers of the army, and

24 then there were the reserve officers also. Something I say, and I

25 highlight, they could be called to be drafted in the army. So these

Page 6456

1 reserve soldiers were, some of them, volunteers without getting an order

2 for a mobilisation. They could join the JNA, and in this category of

3 volunteers, and I'm discovering it now because I did not know this until

4 this morning, is that a volunteer was able to be drafted and go where

5 they wanted to go, and that was your case. You were able to choose the

6 location.

7 Is this how things took place, when it comes to volunteers?

8 Rather, that by showing up as a volunteer, one was given a specific

9 location; was that the case?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this: It's --

11 I can answer -- I can tell you my situation, as far as I know it, and the

12 place where I was at, how things were organised there. As to other

13 places, I really can't say, I don't know about that, and you must

14 understand that at that time in the former Yugoslavia there was total

15 anarchy and disarray.

16 Now, you mentioned -- well, we had the regular army, made up of

17 professional officers who were salaried and soldiers who were mobilised,

18 and I think that at the time as well there were professional soldiers,

19 but I'm not quite sure, in small number. Then you had the reserve force.

20 That means people who were -- how shall I put this? With respect to

21 their military duties, they were duty-bound to report to the reserve

22 headquarters. And when the army needed an additional unit, they would

23 replenish their forces from these reserve forces, and they would be sent

24 for training and exercise. Then they had volunteers, in addition to

25 that, and when they went -- well, the point of the whole matter is they

Page 6457

1 weren't paid, whereas the reserve forces, in order to take part in the

2 war, in the fighting, they would be paid; not much, but they would be

3 paid.

4 So the volunteers were placed under someone's command and have

5 the status of reservists when they went somewhere to fight. That's my

6 understanding of the matter. Perhaps it was different. But the point of

7 the matter was different. If you arrived somewhere as a reservist, then

8 you had to stay in that same location and go exactly where you were

9 ordered to go by the army. However, if you were a volunteer, you could

10 cease being serving in the unit and said you would go home because you

11 were there on a volunteer basis. That's my understanding of the matter.

12 Perhaps it wasn't quite like that, but I'm telling you how I understood

13 it and how I think things were in the unit that I was in and where I know

14 how matters were conducted. I was an ordinary soldier, you must

15 understand that, so I can't speak about any military laws or regulations

16 or whatever was in force at the time.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But did you see cases where,

18 for instance, some of your comrades, volunteers, would tell the commander

19 of the unit, "That's it, I'm going back home, I am no longer a

20 volunteer"? Did you ever encounter such a situation?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't think there was a

22 case when somebody would say, "I don't want to be a volunteer anymore,"

23 but some people did say that they would have to go to Novi Sad, for

24 example, and have five or six days' rest because they were sort of

25 distraught, mentally. And I can give you the name and surname of someone

Page 6458

1 like that. In the middle of an operation, he would say that he wanted to

2 have a rest. And I think that I say that in my statement, too.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

4 I am looking at the time. It would be a good idea to take a

5 break, so we'll take a 20-minute break now.

6 --- Recess taken at 9.50 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.15 a.m.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll be in private session for

9 a few minutes. I need to make a slight change of a technical nature to

10 the oral decision that was handed down.

11 Registrar, please.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, you have the floor.

23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Witness 002, you told us that you reached Negoslavci. On what

25 date did you get there?

Page 6459

1 A. I reached Negoslavci with the Guards Brigade on the 30th -- or

2 the 1st of October. The 29th, the 30th. I'm not quite sure of the date.

3 Anyway, the end of September.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, why did you arrive there with the Brigades Guard

5 [as interpreted]?

6 A. I arrived in Sid. That's where I was sent. I was given the

7 address of the Territorial Defence Command of Vukovar and that they would

8 be sending me to Vukovar. When I arrived there, I was told that the

9 Guards Brigade was supposed to go to Vukovar and that they were looking

10 for guides for their units, and if I wanted to join them, I could. And

11 that's what I did, I agreed to that.

12 Q. Thank you. Were there any other volunteers like you who reached

13 Negoslavci with the Guards Brigade?

14 A. Together with me, well, I can't remember exactly, but there were

15 six or seven other volunteers, and all of them had joined up with the

16 Guards Brigade. I think that some others came from Vukovar, two or

17 three, to join them, those who'd already had some war experience in

18 territorial defence.

19 Q. Could you give us the names, please, if you remember?

20 A. I can't remember, but generally there were young guys from

21 Vukovar. I don't know.

22 Q. Very well. How many men were there in the Guards Brigade when

23 you reached Negoslavci?

24 A. I think that establishment-wise, the Guards Brigade numbered

25 about 1.600 men. I'm not quite sure. I was in the military police,

Page 6460

1 which numbered about 150 men at the time. Of that, 100 provided security

2 for the Command, the command post, whereas the others were deployed and

3 distributed among the houses that were free over there, in squads.

4 Q. How were these 106 [as interpreted] men equipped, in military

5 terms? What kind of weapons? What kind of weapons did they have?

6 A. I don't understand this "106 men." Which 106?

7 Q. I did ask how were these 1.600 men equipped, in military terms,

8 when you reached Negoslavci?

9 A. Well, the Guards Brigade was a motorised brigade. It had tanks,

10 therefore, and various combat vehicles. We arrived -- we all arrived in

11 what we call the Pinzgauers. We were driven to Negoslavci, and I think

12 the Guards Brigade was one of the strongest brigades within the

13 composition of the former Yugoslav Army.

14 Q. Which you reached Negoslavci, were there JNA soldiers there

15 already? And if there were, how many were there?

16 A. In Negoslavci, I don't remember. I don't remember. When we

17 arrived --

18 Q. Very well.

19 A. -- well, quite possibly the local Territorial Defence of

20 Negoslavci might have been there, but I really can't remember.

21 Q. Very well. In the period that followed until the end of November

22 1999, could you describe to us what the Serb artillery was doing? Was

23 there a Serb artillery? Were they firing every day, were they firing now

24 and again? Could you tell us more about this?

25 A. Yes, that's right. The Serb -- when we arrived, the Serb

Page 6461

1 artillery was there, but I have no idea -- I don't think the guards from

2 the Guards Brigade but from some other brigade. I really don't know. I

3 can't say. Anyway, they, with the -- well, for 12 or 13 -- with the

4 exception of 12 or 13 days, when there was a ceasefire, they bombed the

5 town throughout, nonstop.

6 Q. Thank you. How would you describe the intensity of the fighting

7 in Vukovar and the resistance level of the Croatians?

8 A. Well, my personal opinion is that they didn't put up too much

9 resistance to us. When I arrived, to all intents and purposes, the key

10 combat with the Croats had already ceased, the fighting was over, because

11 on the 1st or 2nd of October, they were completely routed, as far as I

12 know. Now, the fact that the army didn't want to advance and take

13 control of the whole town, that was probably a matter of politics, so

14 that when we went to clean up the streets, as we called it, we didn't

15 come across any significant resistance. There were some fighting, but

16 not any major battles.

17 Q. Could you clarify this, please, for us? You said that the

18 artillery was firing incessantly. Why was this artillery firing if there

19 was no resistance on the part of the Croatians?

20 A. Well, it's hard for me to answer, why they were bombing all the

21 time. Well, I just assumed that there was some political reason to

22 destroy the city completely, and I don't really see how this worked in

23 favour of the Serbs at all.

24 Q. How long did you stay, all in all, in Negoslavci with the JNA;

25 one week, two weeks, one month?

Page 6462

1 A. I was active under the Guards Brigade for 20 days. I have to say

2 that I had to sign a contract with them, because when I arrived as a

3 volunteer, in order for me to be a member of the Guards Brigade, I had to

4 sign a contract. Unfortunately, there was a single copy only. And when

5 I complained about that, when I asked why I couldn't get a copy of my

6 own, I was told that I could only sign or not sign, and if I wouldn't

7 sign, I could pack my things and go home.

8 Within the Guards Brigade, now, I don't know exactly how long it

9 was that I was in Negoslavci. I think that on the 1st of October, we

10 went to Vukovar, and I was there for about 15 days in Vukovar with the

11 Guards Brigade. And when we withdrew the second time from Vukovar, in

12 order for a new shift to come in, then I got a day of furlough. Then I

13 went to Sid, and when I returned, I had a conflict with some other

14 soldiers in the Guards Brigade so I was transferred from the

15 Guards Brigade to the Territorial Defence.

16 So I don't know exactly how long I was in the Guards Brigade in

17 Negoslavci, but altogether about 20 days.

18 Q. Very well. This question might be difficult for you to answer.

19 You mentioned 20 days, approximately, with the Guards Brigade. Now,

20 date-wise, where would we stand then?

21 A. From the 26th of September, up until the 30th of September,

22 roughly, I was with the Guards Brigade in Sid. And then sometime from

23 the 1st of October until sometime around the 20th of October, I was in

24 Negoslavci and in Vukovar. It was something like that.

25 Now, I really cannot say how long it was that we were in Vukovar.

Page 6463

1 Q. Very well. You mentioned having signed a contract. Do you

2 remember anything about the content of this contract, what was written in

3 this contract? I understood that you didn't have a copy of it.

4 A. Well, roughly, in case of wounding, or death, or something

5 happens, the explanation was that this was some kind of insurance for me.

6 But since I said straightaway that if it's insurance for me, then I

7 should have a copy of my own, I didn't see any logic in having a single

8 copy. If the army was to keep that copy, I don't see what kind of

9 insurance that would be for me. So I assume -- well, on the other hand,

10 I assumed that all who joined the Guards Brigade as volunteers had to be

11 registered. In order to be within the Guards Brigade, they had to sign

12 some kind of contract with the Guards Brigade. Then, probably this was

13 the case with any regular military unit.

14 Q. Very well. Whilst you were with the Guards Brigade, what stories

15 had been circulated about what the Croatians were doing?

16 A. Well, I mentioned earlier on in my statement that these were

17 stories that were probably supposed to stimulate the soldiers in a way.

18 They were quite incredible, especially to me at that point in time.

19 There was one story about the Croats crucifying a pregnant woman near

20 Mitnica, cutting her abdomen and trampling her baby to death before her

21 own eyes as she was dying.

22 There was yet another story that an elderly woman, when she

23 invited the young soldiers in for a cup of coffee, and she went to the

24 kitchen and then threw a hand grenade into the room and in fact killed

25 them.

Page 6464

1 Then there was another story that this other older woman climbed

2 onto a roof and used a sniper to fire at the military.

3 Knowing my own grandmother, who was not capable of climbing up to

4 the attic, I didn't take these stories seriously, but I know that these

5 stories had a very unfavorable effect on the other soldiers, because then

6 in the Guards Brigade there were young men of 18 or 19 only, and it was

7 very, very bad if somebody would offer coffee to the army.

8 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us who was behind these stories that

9 were being circulated in the Guards Brigade?

10 A. Well -- well, look. I assume that they had to have someone who

11 was like a political commissar who was in charge of army morale. Well, I

12 wouldn't know the exact name.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you talk to us in detail about the

14 psychological impact that these stories had on the conscripts and the

15 young soldiers? You mentioned this, but could you develop this a little

16 bit.

17 A. As for the unit that I was in, the squad that I was in, I tried

18 to explain this to them, that it's not the fault of every old woman who

19 invites us in for a coffee. Perhaps we should be a bit more cautious, in

20 terms of accepting an invitation to have a cup of coffee, but it doesn't

21 have to mean that every old woman is ill-intentioned. It wasn't real

22 easy to explain that.

23 Q. I understand your reaction, but what was the psychological impact

24 on these men? I mean the psychological impact of these stories on these

25 men. What kind of atmosphere did this generate?

Page 6465

1 A. Well, look. They were afraid. They were quite scared. And in

2 my estimate - I cannot say anything for sure - but it was easier for them

3 to shoot now.

4 Q. Have you heard stories about Dr. Bosanac from the

5 Vukovar Hospital?

6 A. Yes, there were these stories going around that as for the

7 captured Serbs or soldiers, she was taking their body organs or blood and

8 that these body organs were being sold abroad.

9 Q. Did you believe these stories?

10 A. I personally did not believe that, because I knew then, in fact,

11 that Ms. -- Dr. Bosanac was a pediatrician, so she wasn't really trained

12 to take people's organs out.

13 The problem wasn't in taking an organ. The problem was for the

14 organ to be functional afterwards, in order to be sent elsewhere and

15 transplanted elsewhere, a special technology was needed, and I don't

16 think they had that at the Vukovar Hospital. (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Very well. I would now like to

19 display the video. On the 65 ter list, this is Exhibit number 6012,

20 video 6012. This is an excerpt of a video that has already been admitted

21 under Exhibit number P21.

22 We don't have the sound.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, while we're waiting for the

24 sound, let me just say that I only have this paper in English, not in

25 Serbian. And roughly two more documents that were envisaged for today,

Page 6466

1 the situation is the same. For most, I have a translation, but for two,

2 I do not.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Dutertre, it seems the

4 accused does not have this in his own language.

5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Since this was an exhibit that has

6 already been admitted, I assumed this had been disclosed, but I can print

7 out a copy for him if he doesn't have one on him today. If need be,

8 I can move on to other questions and get back to this video afterwards,

9 but this has already been disclosed.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I assume the woman we see

11 speaks the language of the accused, so it may not be necessary, but let's

12 give this copy to Mr. Seselj since the Registrar has printed this out.

13 Let's give it to him.

14 I'd like to thank the Registrar for that.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the problem is not

16 that it was exhibited earlier and that it was disclosed to me earlier on,

17 but you instructed the OTP to provide a binder for each and every

18 witness. I don't really have to search through piles of material every

19 time. I did not ask for a delay or anything. I used a moment, when

20 technical problems were being resolved, to make this known; not more, not

21 less.

22 I'm not asking for a delay. I'm not asking for anything else.

23 I can follow the footage as soon as it appears. It hasn't appeared on my

24 screen yet. I can follow it.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Can we see the

Page 6467

1 footage now, please.

2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'm just wondering whether we

3 shouldn't redact lines 4, 5, on page 40, since these pages might contain

4 information that could identify the witness. Page 40, lines 4 and 5. It

5 pertains to the witness's occupation.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall issue an order.

7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could show this video

8 now, please.

9 [Videotape played]

10 [No interpretation]

11 "Unknown Chetnik: We can only fight with them."

12 "Reporter: Why?"

13 "Unknown Chetnik: Why? Because they kill our people. They kill

14 our children. We have never seen the kid of two years old with the head,

15 with head of the kid is on the pig, you know. And head of the pig is on

16 the kid's body. You know what's that mean? Have you ever see that? No?

17 With that people we discuss? Never. Only fight to the end. To the

18 last -- the last bullet, the last Ustasha, you know."

19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness 002, where was this video shot, according to you?

21 A. In Vukovar, towards the end of the war, at the end of the war.

22 Q. What would be your comment on the running commentary we hear, or

23 when we hear the man talking about the body of a pig put together with a

24 baby's head?

25 A. Well, look. I don't know what to say. It's hard for me to make

Page 6468

1 any comments in respect of that.

2 First of all, quite simply, I don't believe that any such thing

3 ever happened. However, if it did happen, then it's terrible. If this

4 kind of footage appeared on TV, that would make all hell break loose. Of

5 course, many people would be very upset and want to fight or to take

6 revenge for that kind of thing.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour -- Judges.

8 I think that the Prosecutor first had to identify this footage for the

9 witness, because the witness confirmed in his original statement and

10 during the questioning on Sunday that volunteers of the Serb Radical

11 Party all had new camouflage uniforms. Here we see a man who's making a

12 statement, and he's not wearing a camouflage uniform, he's wearing a

13 classical military uniform. Now the Prosecutor is putting this as if it

14 were the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party. So this is manipulation,

15 perfidious manipulation.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. I did not

17 understand that the Prosecution was showing this man and this woman as

18 being members of the Serbian Radical Party. That's not what I

19 understood.

20 Prosecutor, now, you would like to respond to the objection?

21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22 The Prosecution has never indicated at this hearing that the

23 people shown on this video belonged to one or other group. We are just

24 providing the information.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have just seen a

Page 6469

1 video clip which we've seen with other witnesses already. The people we

2 see on this video, according to you, which unit did these people belong

3 to?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd have to see the clip once

5 again.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I was listening, I mean, the

8 thing about the child was a bit confusing, so I wasn't really thinking

9 about whether this person had any kind of insignia on or something.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's see the video again.

11 [Videotape played]

12 [No interpretation)

13 "Unknown Chetnik: We can only fight with them."

14 "Reporter: Why?"

15 "Unknown Chetnik: Why? Because they kill our people. They kill

16 our children. You have never seen a kid of two years old with the head

17 of the kid is on the pig, you know, and here the pig is on the kid's

18 body. You know what's that mean? Have you ever see that? No? With

19 that people we discuss? Never, only fight to the end, to the last -- the

20 last bullet. The last Ustasha, you know. It's everything."

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first girl is a Serb, I assume,

22 and a member of some Serb volunteer unit. I see she's wearing a cockade,

23 but that doesn't have to signify who it is that she belongs to.

24 The young man after her, he has no insignia, and he can easily be

25 either a Serb or a Croat.

Page 6470

1 As I was observing the rest in this footage, they could be some

2 kind of reservists or volunteers. They could even be territorials. I

3 saw a helmet with some strange insignia. We did not have such helmets.

4 They could have been ZNGs. I have no idea. I can just speak with

5 certainty about the first girl I saw.

6 At the end, there is this moment when the person says, "Well,

7 then, we can go and join the Chetniks." Well, what are they?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Another two objections,

9 Mr. President.

10 I heard the person say, "Let's go to the company," not, "Let's go

11 join the Chetniks." Maybe the witness mis-heard, but I just mind the

12 pasting of two different fragments. The first girl could be a volunteer

13 of the Serb Radical Party. I cannot say. I don't know them all by

14 heart. She's in camouflage uniform. The second fragment that is

15 artificially pasted to the first one shows a group of soldiers wearing

16 classical military uniforms. So the footage was not all shot in one

17 place. These are two fragments artificially pasted together.

18 That is my objection regarding manipulation.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. For the transcript, what

20 Mr. Seselj just mentioned is something that I had noticed myself as well.

21 When we see the young woman, that sequence is immediately

22 followed by another sequence or a clip with men, and those two are not

23 shot at the same time and certainly not in the same premises, and they

24 are pasted together.

25 The second sequence that we see comes after the first one, but is

Page 6471

1 not shot at the same place. What we can also notice is that young woman

2 is wearing a camouflage uniform, and she seems to belong to a

3 well-equipped unit, whereas compared to the second clip, which shows us a

4 group of men, it seems that they're wearing various uniforms, and I've

5 even noticed their shoes. I noticed that they did not wear the same

6 shoes. Some men wear a bandana on their heads, other men have helmets,

7 and they are wearing clothes that are quite different from one to the

8 other.

9 And what I would like to know, Witness, you were in Vukovar and

10 you can confirm to us or not what I just noticed on this video. We can

11 get the impression that the people we just saw here are quite excited.

12 They're all -- they have harsh words, they're using harsh language. Was

13 that the general state of mind? Everybody who was present on the

14 premises, were they all sharing this state of mind, which can be

15 understood because of various circumstances? But what we see on this

16 video, is that the state of mind that predominated at the time?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can agree with you -- well,

18 you see, the first part of the footage, it's like a political programme.

19 It is put in a very nice, cultured way.

20 Now, the second part of the footage. Now, if the cameramen were

21 taking pictures of this, why didn't they take pictures of this case -- I

22 mean, of this child's head that was put on a pig's body, whatever?

23 So these are the stories that I told you about earlier on.

24 Somebody starts telling stories, and then people fall into, what do I

25 call it, a psychosis, and then afterwards they don't even know what it

Page 6472

1 was that they saw with their own eyes and what they did not see. I think

2 that the second part explains that.

3 The point is that the Croats were not immune to that kind of

4 thing, either. This happened among them as well. That is why I cannot

5 identify who these people are, and I can't even identify who made this

6 footage. I don't know. When journalists made this kind of material,

7 they never recorded evidence. They'd always record a story, somebody's

8 story, but never evidence. So I can just say that such stories really

9 had an ugly effect on people, and this shows that.

10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11 I would like to stop the video at some point, but can we pass the

12 video again and I'll just ask we make a still at one point.

13 [Videotape played]

14 [No interpretation)

15 "Unknown Chetnik: We can only fight with them."

16 "Reporter: Why?"

17 "Unknown Chetnik: Why? Because they kill our people, they kill

18 our children. You have never seen the kid of two years old with head,

19 the head of the kid is on the pig, you know. And the head of the pig is

20 on the kid's body. You know what's that mean?"


22 Q. Witness 002, would you be able to tell me, to what army do these

23 helmets belong? We see a helmet to the right of the shoulder of the

24 person here and people wearing helmets. These helmets belonged to what

25 army?

Page 6473

1 A. These helmets that are on the heads of these two people here

2 belong to the regular Army of Yugoslavia, and it was distributed to

3 volunteers, reservists. I can just say that the Guards Brigade did not

4 have such helmets. They had "djiladas" [phoen]. That's where I was. In

5 the Territorial Defence, they also had such helmets, but they also would

6 put a white sign saying "Petrova Gora" on the helmets. So I cannot tell

7 on the basis of the helmets. I assume they are volunteers if they are

8 Serb soldiers.

9 However, the third one down here, I have no idea. That was used

10 by the Croats, that helmet. Maybe it was captured. I don't know.

11 Q. The fact that these two clips are pasted together brings me to

12 put a question to you. The second clip, can you confirm to us if it was

13 shot in Vukovar or elsewhere? Could you tell us where it was shot?

14 A. I can't really say what location. Judging by the ruins, how much

15 is destroyed there, it could be Vukovar. And if this was taken in 1991,

16 then Vukovar was the only town that was destroyed in similar fashion.

17 That's the logics of it. Now, whether it's correct, I can't guarantee

18 100 per cent.

19 Q. [In English] Fair enough.

20 [Interpretation] Fair enough. You've told us, and I'll soon

21 finish with the video, that you joined the TO. Where in Vukovar did you

22 join the TO?

23 A. Well, when I finished with the Guards Brigade, I found some form

24 of transport from Negoslavci. Someone drove me to Velepromet, and then I

25 was sent to the Territorial Defence Staff which was at Petrova Gora, and

Page 6474

1 -- in a house at Petrova Gora. I went to a house there, and I was

2 deployed from there -- or, rather, they sent me to -- well, I was told to

3 find Miroljub. And then Miroljub, this person Miroljub, sent me to a

4 group of Serb volunteers who had arrived from Belgrade, but they were all

5 Montenegrins by ethnicity, and that I was supposed to be their guide. I

6 was appointed their guide.

7 So the first couple of days, I think we were in the Prvomajska

8 1st of May settlement, and then were transferred to a house in Nova Ulica

9 Street, and the owner of the house was Rade Rkman. I think that was his

10 name.

11 Q. Very well. Let's now move on, step by step, and let's talk about

12 the structure of the TOs, who belonged to which unit. It may be slightly

13 tedious and perhaps even repetitive, but I would like to be able to

14 establish clearly who was doing what.

15 If I understood you correctly, you've joined the TO of

16 Petrova Gora, and now I'm going to ask you general questions as to where

17 the units were placed.

18 You told us that there was a TO in Negoslavci. What was their

19 duty?

20 A. Well, the TO of Negoslavci, I really don't know what their duties

21 were. I talked to some members of that TO after the war, and I heard

22 that for a month they were up at the line from Vucedol to Mitnica.

23 Q. Would you be able to give us the names of the people of the

24 Negoslavci TO with whom you talked after the war?

25 A. One man's surname was Kolaric. I can't remember his first name.

Page 6475

1 Then I -- well, I think there was -- he was in the Territorial Defence

2 Staff, he was from Vukovar, and his name was Jovica Kresovic, this one.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. I think that the

4 Prosecutor is introducing some misunderstanding because he didn't follow

5 the testimony of the witness. The TO of Negoslavci is one thing and the

6 TO of Vukovar is another, whereas the Prosecutor is asking the witness

7 the question as if the TO of Negoslavci was the same as the TO of

8 Vukovar. There was no organic link between the two, but he didn't follow

9 what the witness was saying with all due attention.

10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I am following perfectly well my

11 witness, and I'm putting these questions because I want to establish --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, it is very

13 important to make clear distinctions between the two TOs, the one in

14 Vukovar and the other one in Negoslavci, so please establish this fact.

15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] It's by putting questions to the

16 witness that we'll be able to establish who's doing what and how. I

17 thank Mr. Seselj for his comment, but I will get to that later on.

18 Q. Witness, were there any TOs at Velepromet?

19 A. Yes. I think that he was under the command of the

20 Territorial Defence of Vukovar, or, rather, there was -- whether there

21 was a squad or group or whatever, I didn't go there much so I don't

22 really know, but they procured food because I think food and ammunition

23 came to Velepromet, and from Velepromet it was distributed up at the

24 line --

25 Q. Very well. Who were the members, if you know, of the Velepromet

Page 6476

1 TO? Would you be able to give us some names?

2 A. I can't remember just now.

3 Q. Very well. Maybe you'll remember those names later.

4 Aside from Velepromet, inside the city of Vukovar where was the

5 TO defence in Vukovar? You mentioned Petrova Gora, but were there other

6 TO units in Vukovar, other than in Petrova Gora?

7 A. Well, it was like this: Petrova Gora was the rear, in fact, to

8 all intents and purposes. The Territorial Defence held the left flank of

9 the entire line up at Vukovar so that -- well, there was Leva Supoderica,

10 Milovo Brdo. (redacted)

11 (redacted). That was

12 after 1991, where the municipality building was.

13 Now, as to the other lines, they were supposed to be held by the

14 Guards Brigade, to the best of my knowledge.

15 Q. Very well. We'll get into that a little bit later. But to go

16 back to the question that Mr. Seselj put forth, there was Negoslavci on

17 the one hand, and it did not belong to the Vukovar TO or did they belong

18 to the Vukovar TO? What can you tell us about it?

19 A. I really don't know what the organisation was like and the

20 military command. I think -- I don't think they belonged to -- or,

21 rather, I don't think they had any contact, command-wise. I think that

22 it was the Guards Brigade that did the coordinating, but I really don't

23 know.

24 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the line

25 16 and 17 of page 50 should be redacted, because an address appears.

Page 6477

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The witness

2 mentioned that there was a unit across the street from the house of the

3 witness, so it would not be too difficult to identify the witness that

4 way. So, Mr. Registrar, please make an order so that the page, page 50,

5 lines 16 and 17, be redacted.

6 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, the TO unit in Velepromet and the Petrova Gora unit,

8 were they under the same umbrella or were they separate units? Were they

9 all under the command of the Vukovar TO or were they acting completely

10 separately? What can you tell us about this?

11 A. So your question is whether the TO of Vukovar and the TO -- what

12 other TO did you say?

13 Q. I want to know if the Vukovar TO encompassed the TO of Velepromet

14 and the TO of Petrova Gora, or were they two separate things, entities?

15 A. I think that it was all one, that it all came under the

16 Territorial Defence of Vukovar. That's my opinion. I really can't

17 guarantee that it's right, though.

18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, you've used one

20 hour, for your information. You still have two more hours left.

21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. I would now like to talk about the hierarchy -- top of the

23 hierarchy of the Vukovar TO, and it will start with a very simple

24 question. Who was, according to you, the head of the Vukovar TO in the

25 month of November 1991?

Page 6478

1 A. Miroljub Vujovic.

2 Q. And what city was he from?

3 A. From Vukovar.

4 Q. Where was his command post; at Velepromet, at Petrova Gora, or

5 another area in the city?

6 A. I don't know. He -- unless he was wounded or something, he was

7 constantly roundabout. I don't really know. I don't know where his

8 command post was.

9 Q. Do you know if there was a specific place where he would come

10 back, where decisions would be taken, where he would hold meetings to

11 which you maybe took place -- took part?

12 A. Well, it's like this: The Staff had to exist somewhere, and

13 perhaps it was somewhere at Petrova Gora. I really don't know. My

14 unit -- the commander of my unit went to get his orders to

15 Stanko Vujanovic's house, for instance, so that I really don't know where

16 it was. Perhaps that was the headquarters of the Staff. I'm not quite

17 sure.

18 Q. Where was this house? Do you have an address? Can you tell us

19 where it was?

20 A. Well, I assume the street was called "Nova Ulica," Nova Street.

21 Now, whether it was Nova Street or Zelina Street, I'm not quite sure.

22 May I make an observation here, perhaps in private session?

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, let's move on to private

24 session.

25 [Private session]

Page 6479

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 MR. DUTERTRE: I would like to show number 65 ter Exhibit 7180,

10 please. And I would like to say, for the record, that I will ask that

11 this map be tendered without any annotations. So I just wanted to tell

12 you that before any annotations are made.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Please give us a number,

14 Mr. Registrar, for this unmarked card.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P420.

16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] We don't see anything on our

17 screens, Your Honour. Very well, it's here.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Dutertre, could you repeat the number,

19 please?

20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] 65 ter 7180.

21 Maybe we can zoom the central portion of the map, showing

22 Vukovar.

23 Q. Witness 002, the usher will help you to do what I'm going to ask

24 you to do. Would you be able to show us on this map, even though I know

25 it's not a very detailed map, the area which shows us Petrova Gora?

Page 6480

1 A. Well, all I can say is "follow logic." If this first point is

2 the village of Negoslavci, this must then be the road, so it should be

3 around here [indicates], around this point, thereabouts. [Marks]

4 Q. Would you be able to indicate this -- next to the circle, that

5 area, with the letter A?

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. I know that this map is not a very detailed map, but would you be

8 able, approximately, to show us where the house of Mr. Stanko Vujanovic

9 was on this map?

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Could you please put a "B" next to that dot.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Very well. And would you be able to put a cross so that we can

14 differentiate the circle corresponding to A and the cross corresponding

15 to B?

16 A. [Marks]

17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18 Mr. President, I would like to ask that this exhibit be tendered.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number, please,

20 Court Registrar.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you had a more detailed map with

22 the plan of the town, I could show you in much more exact terms.

23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] We'll get back to that later.

24 Q. Witness 002, who is Dusan Jaksic?

25 A. He was also a Territorial Defence commander. Now, there was some

Page 6481

1 sort of, how shall I put this, political clash between him and Miroljub

2 and a power struggle as to who would be the commander, and finally

3 Miroljub won and he was the commander after that. That's how I saw it,

4 at least.

5 Q. Very well. And what was his involvement after Miroljub Vujovic

6 took the command?

7 A. I think -- I can't guarantee, but I think he was the Petrova Gora

8 Detachment commander. I'm not quite sure. I can't remember. Anyway, at

9 one point he was the commander of the Petrova Gora Detachment and the

10 commander of the Staff. Well, they were all in the Staff and the

11 headquarters, and I wasn't really interested in what post each of them

12 held exactly.

13 Q. Very well. And can you remember, when did Miroljub Vujovic take

14 command of the Vukovar TO? Do you remember the date?

15 A. Probably somewhere towards the end of October and beginning of

16 November, thereabouts. I really can't be more precise than that.

17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] A small procedural point. On the

18 transcript, we don't see the exhibit number given to the map marked by

19 the witness. It's on page 55, line 1.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

21 give us the number again, the number of the map?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That would be Exhibit

23 number P421.

24 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 Q. Witness 002, would you please be able to tell us, how did

Page 6482

1 Miroljub Vujovic feel? Did he consider himself to be a Chetnik, a

2 classic soldier, a volunteer? Do you know?

3 A. He considered himself to be -- well, I don't know what he

4 considered himself to be, but I know that he should have been an officer

5 now. He wanted to have a military career of some kind, that is certain,

6 and I think he was given the rank of colonel by the army at some point.

7 I can't be quite sure of that, though.

8 Q. Do you know who was Miroljub Vujovic's replacement in Vukovar in

9 November of 1993 [as interpreted]?

10 A. In November 1993? I have no idea.

11 Q. 1991, in fact. There's a mistake in the transcript.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Leading question. We

13 haven't come to the fact that he was replaced in any way, that

14 Miroljub Vujovic was replaced, and now the Prosecutor is asking who the

15 replacement was.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in fact, I wanted to

18 know what was the name of the deputy, in fact. I was not talking about a

19 replacement, but what was the name of the deputy of Miroljub Vujovic in

20 the month of November 1991 in Vukovar.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, can you answer this

22 question?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the surname was "Djankovic,"

24 and we referred to him as "Djani." I can't remember his first name.

25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

Page 6483

1 Q. Can you tell us who is Miroslav Djankovic?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Is it the same person?

4 A. Well, I think his name was Miroslav. Well, anyway, there were

5 father and son, and they were both Djankovic. The son we referred to as

6 "Djani," and he was Miroljub's deputy. Now, who was who and what their

7 names were, their first names were, I might have got that mixed up. I

8 can't quite remember now.

9 Q. And who is Mica Djankovic?

10 A. Yes, Mica, Mica would be the father, that's right, and Miroslav,

11 then, would be the son.

12 Q. Thank you very much. We've clarified the top of the hierarchy of

13 the TO. I would like to talk to the bottom of this structure, the bottom

14 of the totem pole, which you certainly know better.

15 How were the basic units called in Vukovar? Were they sections,

16 groups, squads, platoons?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please. Before you

18 answer this question, I would just like to talk about the top of the

19 hierarchy.

20 You were there. You were in Vukovar. You were a soldier, a

21 regular soldier. According to you, who had the supreme command in

22 Vukovar? Was it a superior officer of the JNA or was it the commander of

23 the TO? With regard to your level, how did you know, or maybe you did

24 not know, who held the position of a supreme commander?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was like this: Since I

Page 6484

1 was in the Guards Brigade for the first 20 days, I knew exactly the

2 chain. The left flank was Territorial Defence, the center and right

3 flank should have been the Guards Brigade, and everything was under the

4 command of the Guards Brigade, so that the main commander, according to

5 that over there, was -- I think he was a colonel at the time,

6 Colonel Mrksic. And afterwards, I think he was given the rank of

7 general.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I understand correctly,

9 because now we're getting into military details, there was a left flank,

10 there was a center and a right flank. The left flank was held by the TO

11 and the center and right flank were held by the Guards Brigade. As far

12 as you're concerned, they were all placed under the command or under the

13 responsibility of Colonel Mrksic. Is that what you're telling us?

14 Very well, please proceed.

15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness 002, I would like to get back to my previous question.

17 How were the basic units of the TO called? Were they called squads,

18 sections, platoons, groups, squadrons? What was the name that was used?

19 A. We had squads. There were about 10 of us at first, and then we

20 were joined by another three men, so there were 13 of us, and we were

21 subdivided into two groups. This squad was part of a company. I think

22 that the company was supposed to number, theoretically, three or four

23 squads, but I think there were only two that took part in the fighting.

24 This company was supposed to be a detachment together with

25 another company or two. That would be the hierarchy.

Page 6485

1 Well, look, it's a bit hard to say anything about hierarchy

2 because the Territorial Defence had a certain numerical level in October

3 and a completely different one in November. As we advanced and as we

4 were getting people out of cellars, then, for the most part, they would

5 join the Territorial Defence later on, because all the people we got out

6 of the cellars were primarily staying in the cellars of their own houses.

7 That is to say, once their own houses were liberated, they were Serbs

8 and --

9 Q. Very well, thank you. In fact, I interrupted you. I'm sorry,

10 please finish your sentence.

11 A. And these people would join the Territorial Defence. So in

12 November, there were many, many more territorials. I think -- well, I

13 heard that there were about 2.000 of them, so probably it could no longer

14 be a detachment. It would have to be a battalion or a brigade.

15 Q. Very well. So to summarise, you were in the Petrova Gora TO as

16 part of a squadron or a section composed of two groups; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said something,

19 and the Prosecutor did not note it, but for me it's an interesting thing.

20 You just said something, and this is something we hear for the first

21 time. You just mentioned that Serbs that were in their cellars, and I

22 imagine that if they were in their cellars, it's because there were

23 combat operations outside, so they were probably not leaving their

24 cellars. So then in November they went out because the situation must

25 have changed militarily, and those people joined the TO, which explains,

Page 6486

1 according to what you are saying, that the forces, between October and

2 November, got more numerous, because in November the TO was able to get

3 the support of many people who were first in their cellars, but when they

4 got out of the cellars, they joined the TO. And you also quoted a

5 number. You mentioned 2.000 people. That's on line 50 of the

6 transcript. So should we infer from what you're saying that this

7 Territorial Defence in Vukovar was also made up of people who, for many

8 days or many weeks, were in their cellars at first?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. It all

10 depended on where they lived. If they lived closer to Petrova Gora, they

11 were liberated earlier. If they lived further on towards the center,

12 they were liberated later and then they joined later.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, tell me, were you ever in

14 contact with people who had joined the TO? Did you talk to them? Would

15 you be able to tell us what state of mind were they in at the time?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean those who were in the

17 cellars and were taken out of the cellars? Well, look, for the most part

18 these were people that were quite elderly, between the age of 45 and 60.

19 The younger ones had fled Vukovar a lot earlier, whereas these other

20 people stayed there to protect their houses. They had guard duty for the

21 Territorial Defence. We, who were younger, liberated the streets, if

22 I can put it that way, and once we would liberate something, then they

23 would come there to act as guards.

24 If you are talking about morale, well, they were protecting their

25 houses, taking care of their houses. They saw that we were winning, so

Page 6487

1 their morale was pretty high. Again, if you're asking whether they were

2 thirsty for revenge or not, I didn't notice any such thing because they

3 were in the cellars together with the Croats, for the most part.

4 You see, not everyone was in their own basement. If you look at

5 a few houses together, then there would be, say, one cellar that was

6 good, that had concrete walls, a high-quality cellar, and then all the

7 neighbours would gather in that kind of cellar because that would be much

8 better protection than any other one.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You answered a question which I

10 was about to put to you. You said that these people didn't realise that

11 they wanted to seek revenge, and then you added something, and you say

12 because they were in the cellars together with the Croatians. This is on

13 line 7, page 61. Should one infer from that that whilst there was firing

14 and shooting in Vukovar, down in the cellars the Serbs and Croatians were

15 together?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, for the most part

17 they were together. You see, the Serbs and the Croats had an interest in

18 being in the cellars together, because they assumed if the Croats would

19 come, then their Croat neighbours would guarantee for them; and if the

20 Serbs would come, then the Serb neighbours could provide guarantees for

21 them. So they thought that they were a lot safer if they were in mixed

22 cellars, as it were. At least that's my opinion, and that's the way it

23 turned out to be.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, you have the floor.

25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 6488

1 I would now like to move into private session, since we are going

2 to be mentioning names.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6489











11 Pages 6489-6493 redacted. Private session.















Page 6494

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is a quarter to 12.00. We

4 shall have a 20-minute break and resume around five minutes past 12.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 11.47 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have resumed our hearing. I

8 don't know whether, during the break, the Prosecution has been able to

9 find a solution to the video problem.

10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honour, that the

11 usher can display it to the witness on a support medium which can be

12 marked. So could we now show this?

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Should this be in open session?

14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Preferably, private session.

15 Private session preferably, please.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6495











11 Pages 6495-6508 redacted. Private session.















Page 6509

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness 002, who is Stanko Ivanovic?

23 A. Stanko Vujanovic. He was one of the commanders in the

24 Territorial Defence. It was my understanding that his unit had had major

25 losses sometime in the beginning of October or late in September, so

Page 6510

1 ultimately he ended up with two men only. Now, whether he took part in

2 command in the Territorial Defence --

3 Q. Would you be able to tell us what his function was? Was he a

4 squad head, or how -- what was he doing, what was his function?

5 A. Well, in his house there was a power generator, so it was the

6 only house where there was electricity, and that is where the Staff was,

7 in his house, for that part of the Territorial Defence. That is where

8 squad commanders came to discuss what it was that they were to do, or,

9 rather, to receive orders for the next day.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I can follow what you're saying

11 in French, but the French booth was not on.

12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Would you please repeat your answer, Witness 002?

14 A. Stanko Vujanovic's house was the only house in that area that had

15 a power generator, the only one that had electricity, that is, so that is

16 where the Staff was for that part of the Territorial Defence. I assume

17 that that's where it was. I saw Captain Radic there once or twice.

18 Squad commanders would come there to get orders, the squad leaders from

19 the Territorial Defence.

20 Q. Talking about this house, who, according to you, was giving

21 orders to these squad commanders?

22 A. Orders were issued either by Miroljub, or if Miroljub was not

23 there, if he was wounded or something, then they would be issued by Djani

24 or Stankovic.

25 Q. Very well. Who is the person going by the nickname of Kapolo?

Page 6511

1 A. I don't know.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor doesn't know how to

3 pronounce this. He probably wanted to say Capalo, but the Prosecutor

4 doesn't know. He hasn't learned enough.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If it's Capalo, then I know who it

6 is.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay, Mr. Capalo then.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Capalo was a soldier in Stanko

11 Vujanovic's unit, he and Dragica. I can't remember her last name. As

12 far as I know, he didn't have any other soldiers; any other surviving

13 soldiers, that is.


15 Q. Can you tell us if Dragica is a woman, a man, if it's a nickname

16 or a name?

17 A. This is a woman, and that was her first name, as far as I know.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Can you tell us who is Pero Cigan?

19 A. I saw Pero Cigan, in fact, only after the war for the first time.

20 When I saw him, he was, well -- well, a bodyguard, Stanko Vujanovic's

21 bodyguard.

22 Q. You're saying that he was the bodyguard of Stanko Vujanovic after

23 the war or during the war? Could you please clarify this?

24 A. I don't remember him from the time during the war. I think he

25 became that after the war.

Page 6512

1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

2 I would like to refresh the memory of the witness on this particular

3 topic.

4 Q. Witness, please tell me if this rings a bell. During your

5 hearing in December of 1997, page 10, paragraph 2, you mention the

6 following:

7 [In English] "Capalo is with us, with several of our men."

8 [Interpretation] I am going to start over:

9 [Previous translation continues] [In English] " ... with several

10 of our men, but Birga managed to escape, even though they were shooting

11 after him. From what I know, Birga is still alive."

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Birga is the last name.

13 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And then you go on and say:

15 [Previous translation continues] [In English] " ... men whom I

16 remember is Pero, nicknamed Cigan, from Ruma or Mitrovica in Serbia."

17 [Interpretation] Can you tell us whether you remember seeing this

18 person during the war under the orders of Stanko Vujanovic? What you

19 said at that hearing that I just mentioned, does that ring a bell?

20 A. I really do not remember having seen Pero personally. The only

21 thing I know are the stories that people were telling about him later. I

22 don't know how relative that is or correct, whether I should talk about

23 something that I had only heard of.

24 Q. Very well. Who is Slavko Cigan?

25 A. I think that that's one of the Ciganovic brothers.

Page 6513

1 Dusan Ciganovic got killed in Vukovar at the beginning of the war. I

2 assume this Slavko Cigan is Slavko Ciganovic.

3 Q. Very well. Who is Nada Kalaba?

4 A. I think that she is Stanko Vujanovic's wife.

5 Q. Fine. What was the relationship -- or, rather, what city was

6 Stanko Vujanovic from?

7 A. Stanko Vujanovic is from Vukovar. Before the war, he was a taxi

8 driver in Vukovar.

9 Q. What was the relationship between Stanko Vujanovic and the person

10 called "Kameni"?

11 A. Well, I assumed that they were good friends before the war. It

12 was my understanding that they are next-door neighbours, that their

13 houses are right next to each other. During the war, they were good

14 friends too.

15 Q. How many times did you see them together during the war, if you

16 saw them together?

17 A. Well, I certainly saw them a few times, say around ten. I really

18 cannot recall now. Say around ten times. Perhaps I can put it that way.

19 Q. Thank you very much. What can you tell us about the relationship

20 between Stanko Vujanovic and the Serb Radical Party?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. It's a leading

22 question. The Prosecutor is supposed to ask whether there was any kind

23 of relationship, and if he happens to get an answer in the affirmative,

24 then he asks what kind of relationship.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, please rephrase

Page 6514

1 your question.

2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I do not think that this is a

3 suggestive question, but:

4 Q. What relationship, if any, existed between Stanko Vujanovic and

5 the Serb Radical Party?

6 A. Well, I don't know of any relationship during the war or before

7 the war, but I do know that Stanko Vujanovic after the war became a

8 member of the Radical Party and that he was proclaimed a vojvoda.

9 Q. Thank you. I will now move on another group of people. I will

10 ask you if you know their names. Who is Gidza?

11 A. His first name is Nikola. I know his last name is Dukic. He was

12 a member of the Territorial Defence during the war, although I did not

13 see him anywhere in combat. He was probably at Velepromet or somewhere

14 else.

15 Q. Thank you. Who is Goran Mugosa?

16 A. Goran Mugosa, "Kustro" is his nickname. He was also a member of

17 the Territorial Defence, but I have no idea what unit of the

18 Territorial Defence he belonged to because he behaved, how should I put

19 this, as a freelancer, and he strolled about. I am not aware of him

20 receiving orders from anyone.

21 Q. Where was he mainly based; at Velepromet, at Negoslavci, at

22 Petrova Gora? Can you tell us?

23 A. I don't know exactly. I saw him in two or three actions of the

24 Territorial Defence, but I don't know where exactly he was.

25 Q. You said that you saw him take part in actions of the

Page 6515

1 Territorial Defence. Where was that, exactly; do you know?

2 A. I think I saw him in Prvomajska Street or the Prvomajska

3 neighbourhood, whatever, but I really cannot remember. I know with one

4 hundred per cent certainty that I saw him two or three times, but where

5 it was exactly, I cannot remember now.

6 Q. Who is Ivica Husnik?

7 A. Ivica Husnik was also a member of the Territorial Defence.

8 However, I saw him only after the war, in fact. He introduces himself as

9 a Chetnik, although he is an ethnic Croat. Afterwards, he changed his

10 first name and last name. I don't know exactly what his new name is.

11 Q. Thank you. When you say that he was a member of the

12 Territorial Defence, are you thinking of the Petrova Gora TO or do you

13 have in mind another unit, such as Negoslavci or Petrova Gora?

14 A. I don't know. I don't know. I didn't see him during the war at

15 all.

16 Q. Very well. Who is Predrag Dragovic?

17 A. That name sounds very familiar. I have an image before my eyes,

18 but I don't know who he is. I think he was a member of the

19 Territorial Defence, judging by the image I see before my eyes at the

20 mention of his first and last names.

21 Q. Very well. What about Zelimir Salajic?

22 A. Salajic. "Gizda" is his nickname. He is from Priljevo, so I

23 don't know. Perhaps they had a Territorial Defence of their own or

24 perhaps they belonged to the Territorial Defence of Vukovar as well. He

25 joined the Territorial Defence about a week before the fall of Vukovar.

Page 6516

1 After the liberation, he was president of the local commune of Priljevo.

2 Q. Very well. To what group is Jovica Peric belong?

3 A. Jovica Peric was also a member of the Territorial Defence, and

4 I think that he was at Velepromet during the war.

5 Q. Fine. And who is Miroljub Draca?

6 A. There are two Dracas, one is Miroljub and one is Miroslav. I

7 find the two of them rather confusing. One was in the Territorial

8 Defence. I think that was Miroljub. And --

9 Q. When you talk about the Territorial Defence, is it Petrova Gora?

10 A. Petrova Gora, yes. I am not sure, because I think that he was in

11 some logistics unit. Perhaps he was at Velepromet. I don't know.

12 Q. Did you see him during the conflict?

13 A. I saw him at Ovcara. Now, I don't know whether you mean Ovcara

14 during the conflict or after the conflict.

15 Q. You talk about Ovcara in November?

16 A. The 20th of November, yes.

17 Q. Very well, so the 20th of November. Who is Nebojsa Zoric?

18 A. Nebojsa Zoric? During the war, he was perhaps 14 years old. I

19 assume that he was also a member of the Territorial Defence. He died in

20 a Croatian prison in Osijek.

21 Q. Once again, you're talking about the TO. Could you, every time

22 you mention the Territorial Defence, if you are thinking of Velepromet,

23 Petrova Gora, or other, and in this particular case what TO are you

24 talking about?

25 A. I saw him only at Ovcara, so I don't really know what

Page 6517

1 Territorial Defence he belonged to.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, it is time to

3 stop the hearing for today. It is quarter past 1.00.

4 Mr. Prosecutor, I believe that you have 45 to 50 minutes left.

5 At least one thing is for sure, less than one hour. So please be careful

6 to finish tomorrow within 45 minutes.

7 Witness, you swore under oath that you will tell the truth. You

8 are a witness of the Court now. Therefore, you will have no longer any

9 contacts with the Prosecutor. Since we had some problems with people who

10 would come back after their oath, I have to tell you that you should have

11 no contact with the Prosecution. Do not phone anybody to tell them what

12 you testified about. Please stay in your hotel room or walk around, take

13 advantage of this beautiful weather, and you will be back tomorrow. Our

14 hearing will start at 8.30 tomorrow morning.

15 So the hearing is adjourned, and we shall reconvene at 8.30

16 tomorrow morning.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.15 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of

19 May, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.