Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10398

 1                           Wednesday, 8 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you call the

 6     case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

11             Today, we are Wednesday, the 8th of October, 2008.  I would like

12     to greet all the people present in the courtroom; Mr. Ferrara, who is

13     leading the witness, Mr. Mundis, as well as all the people assisting them

14     in the courtroom.  I shall also like to greet Mr. Seselj, and in a few

15     moments I shall greet the witness when he walks into the courtroom.

16             I seize this opportunity to ask the Registrar to give me the

17     countdown and tell me how much time Mr. Ferrara has had so far.

18             Very briefly, a housekeeping matter:  I would like to tell

19     Mr. Mundis that the Trial Chamber intends to resume its hearings as of

20     Tuesday, the 6th of January, onwards.  The winter recess lasts after

21     that.  In other words, we would resume our hearings during the winter

22     recess period.

23             As you know, the Judges have decided to use the courtrooms

24     whenever they are available, and this might occur during the winter

25     recess, which will be the case for this trial.  We can therefore resume

Page 10399

 1     on the 6th of January quite smoothly, which means that we would stop

 2     calling witnesses as of the 15th of December.

 3             This is what I wanted to tell you so that you can adjust your

 4     witnesses schedule accordingly.

 5             Mr. Seselj.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to draw your

 7     attention to the fact that the 7th of January is Serbian Orthodox

 8     Christmas, and I demand that we do not work on that day because we,

 9     honourable and honest Serbs, celebrate Christmas in prison on that day,

10     the 7th of January.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No problem.  We can then sit on

12     the following Friday.  That is not a problem.  We cannot have a hearing

13     on the 7th of January.  We would resume on the 6th of January, have no

14     hearing on the 7th, and have a hearing on the 8th and 9th of January.

15     That is not a problem.

16             Let's bring the witness in now and ask him whether he has done

17     his homework.  Mr. Ferrara, you will then have to ask him whether he has

18     completed the chart and how many names he has identified, because I

19     assume you are going to ask to have the document tendered into evidence.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as the countdown is

22     concerned, the Registrar has just told us that you've had one hour and

23     fifty-six minutes, so you have one hour and four minutes left.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25                           WITNESS:  ALEKSA EJIC [Resumed]

Page 10400

 1                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning.  You may sit

 3     down.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall give the floor to

 6     Mr. Ferrara now.

 7             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             Your Honours, before going to the list we gave to the witness, I

 9     feel yesterday we forgot to request to tender into evidence the

10     article -- the press report we discussed at the end of the hearing.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right.

12             Registrar, can we have an exhibit number for the press article.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor has to explain what

17     makes this newspaper article relevant.  It's not an interview with the

18     witness.  If it were an interview with the witness, I wouldn't mind at

19     all.  However, this is an OPED [phoen] article and we haven't heard the

20     journalist who wrote the article, so how can we admit it into evidence?

21     If we can take for granted everything that is published in the

22     newspapers, then there will be no end to that.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, according to the

24     case law of the Appeals Chambers and the Trial Chambers, we can admit

25     documents, even if the author of the document in question is not present.

Page 10401

 1     All that is needed are elements in this document that can be linked to

 2     the indictment, in terms of relevance and probative value.  There needs

 3     to be a degree of some probative value.

 4             You would like to respond, Mr. Ferrara?

 5             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honour, I agree with you, and I want to

 6     highlight something else.

 7             During the testimony of Witness VS-61 concerning the same part of

 8     the indictment, the Hrtkovci case, the Trial Chamber showed its interest

 9     in what was reported at the time in the local and the international

10     press.  I remember that the Presiding Judge pointed out the importance of

11     this press article.  I have here exactly the quote of the hearing of the

12     25th of September, 2008.  For the reference of Mr. Seselj, the transcript

13     is 100 to 113, 100 to 24 [sic], and for this reason the Prosecution has

14     created a press package that is included in the court binder sent to the

15     Trial Chamber and to the accused, containing numerous press articles

16     related to the events occurred in Hrtkovci in May 1992.  All these

17     articles were published from May to August 1992, except one that is an

18     interview with the accused on the same matter.  It was published on 19

19     July 1993.  They are all related to the intimidation and expulsions of

20     the Croatian population and non-Serbian population in Hrtkovci, and my

21     request is to tender all these documents into evidence.  I can give the

22     65 ter number of these articles.  For the record, the first one is 1350,

23     1524, 1544, that is the one we discussed yesterday, 1878, 1309, 1310, and

24     the last two are two documents, number 7270 and 7272.  That's not -- are

25     not still added to the Prosecution exhibit list.  My request is to add

Page 10402

 1     these new documents to the Prosecution exhibit list, due to the relevance

 2     and probative value, and to tender into evidence the entire package.

 3             THE COURT:  I shall confer with my colleagues.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, the document we

 6     saw yesterday, which is document 1544, well, the Trial Chamber decides to

 7     admit this document, and we shall ask the Registrar to give it an exhibit

 8     number, because we feel that it is relevant to some degree and there is a

 9     link, as one says in English, and this may have some probative value.

10     However, the other documents, 1350, 1524, 1878, well, I think we need to

11     address these documents in the presence of the witness.

12             Now, we shall give an exhibit number to this one document for the

13     time being.  Registrar, please.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 1544 will be Exhibit

15     number P550.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara.

17             MR. FERRARA:  We'll discuss these documents later with the

18     witness, Your Honours.

19             Just for the record, I want to repeat the transcript reference

20     that I don't see in the transcript.  It is the hearing 25th September

21     2008.  The transcript page is 10021, line 13; 10022, line 4.

22                           Examination by Mr. Ferrara:  [Continued]

23        Q.   Mr. Ejic, did you read the list that you received yesterday from

24     the Trial Chamber?

25        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, I have read it several times, and I'm facing

Page 10403

 1     a bit of a dilemma.

 2             Your Honours, by your leave, I wish to address a request -- or,

 3     rather, I have a remark to make.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Please go ahead.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             I would like to ask the OTP, for the sake of expeditiousness,

 7     when they send documents to me and when they put questions to me in

 8     relation to something like this, I think that we lose time in this way.

 9     It's a bit too voluminous.  There's a lot of information contained here,

10     over 700 numbers, and the list is annex 11, "Hrtkovci, known victims."

11     Now, what does "known victims" mean?  Are these victims of physical

12     abuse, mistreatment, or victims of psychological abuse and violence?

13             Also, could a question be put to me more specifically in relation

14     to a particular name and surname and a particular address, who was

15     exactly meant?  This way, I'm facing a dilemma.  I've read a lot of names

16     that are the same, the same last names, entire families.  I can tell by

17     the last names that some of them are in Hrtkovci to this day.

18             As for destination, a lot are missing, and I know that many of

19     these people are still in Hrtkovci, they still live there.  So is this a

20     list of victims of psychological violence or physical torture only, such

21     as ejection and so on?

22             I also added a few names that I'm aware of persons who are not on

23     this list.  Finally, my own name is on the list, and I will explain in

24     relation to that addition, what persons this has to do with and what it

25     is that happened to them.

Page 10404

 1             Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, we have a problem.

 3             MR. FERRARA:  Yes, Your Honour.  I apologise, because maybe

 4     yesterday my question was not very clear.

 5        Q.   When you say "known victims," the indictment concerning Hrtkovci

 6     is an indictment for persecution, so the known victims are victims --

 7     people who were forced to leave Hrtkovci in 1992 because they were

 8     expelled or because they were maltreated and so on.  So when we say

 9     "known victims," and the expert will recommend this list and they will

10     tender the report, of course we'll be more clear on this point.  We

11     intend -- people that were forced leave Hrtkovci, so this is the main

12     question, if you know that some of the people on this list were forced to

13     leave Hrtkovci in 1992, and of course it's possible that they were

14     forced -- they were able to come back later on at a time?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a very serious objection.  I

17     mean, all of my objections are serious, but this one is particularly

18     serious.

19             Mr. Ferrara, counsel for the Prosecution, referred to the content

20     of the indictment and the crime of persecution that I have been charged

21     with.  I believe that it is indispensable for it to be explained to the

22     witness what the crime of persecution is in accordance with Article 5 of

23     the Statute of the ICTY.  This witness is not a lawyer.  He's certainly

24     os not aware of that.  The crime of persecution is very specifically

25     spelled out and defined, and it has to do with specific actions that

Page 10405

 1     constitute persecution or actions of a similar nature which are identical

 2     in terms of intensity to those mentioned, because here the witness is

 3     brought into a situation to explain himself and interpret what he means

 4     by "persecution."

 5             For example, yesterday, if Rade Cakmak said something to a man at

 6     the meeting of the Council of the Local Commune, this person took this to

 7     be an insult, a threat, and then he left Hrtkovci.  That is not

 8     persecution.  There is a crime that is persecution, and if you ask the

 9     witness about that, then you have to explain to him what is meant by

10     "persecution" in accordance with the Statute of the ICTY.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, can you explain to

12     the witness, in simple words, what the accused has just talked about?  He

13     said in his list that some people were still there, so there might be

14     mistakes in the list.  He doesn't quite understand the difference between

15     those people who left of their own free will, those people who were

16     forced to leave, and those who were encouraged to leave because they were

17     afraid, and that would come under the heading of "Persecution."  That is

18     difficult for a lawyer and even more difficult for someone who is a

19     farmer.  So could you explain this to him in a simple fashion, what it is

20     exactly you expect from him?

21             MR. FERRARA:  Yes, Your Honours.  As I say, I think the best is

22     to be clear is to read exactly to the witness what the accused has to

23     face on this part of the case, so it was the indictment related to

24     Hrtkovci.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Paragraph 33, that's it.  I assume

Page 10406

 1     that the OTP should pay me for helping them.

 2             MR. FERRARA:  We'll see what can we do.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, don't try and be

 4     witty.

 5             MR. FERRARA:

 6        Q.   Mr. Ejic, the accused, in paragraph 33 of the indictment, "in May

 7     1992, Vojislav Seselj came to Vojvodina and met with associates in the

 8     SRS.  He instructed these associates to contact non-Serbs and threatened

 9     them with death if they did not leave the area."

10             "On 6 May 1992, he gave an inflammatory speech in the village of

11     Hrtkovci, calling for the expulsions of Croats from the area, reading a

12     list of individual Croat residents who should leave for Croatia.

13             "As a result of this speech, a number of Croat residents decided

14     to leave Hrtkovci.  After the speech, supporters and associates of the

15     accused, including members of the SRS and the Serbian Chetnik Movement,

16     began a campaign of ethnic cleansing directed to non-Serbs, particularly

17     Croats in Hrtkovci.

18             "During the next three months, many non-Serbs were harassed,

19     threatened with death, and intimidated, forcing them to leave the area.

20     Houses of Croats were looted and occupied by Serbs.  Serb families were

21     being displaced from other parts of the former Yugoslavia, often occupied

22     the homes of those Serbs who had been compelled to leave.  By his

23     participation in these acts, Vojislav Seselj committed deportation, a

24     crime against humanity, inhuman acts, that is, forcible transfers, a

25     crime against humanity as well."

Page 10407

 1             Now, is it clear to you what kind of a crime Mr. Seselj is

 2     accused of concerning your village?  And so I repeat my question:  In

 3     this list that you have read, do you know some people who were forcibly

 4     expelled from Hrtkovci or who were -- who decide to leave Hrtkovci due to

 5     the threats that they received in that period of time?

 6        A.   Your Honour, the honourable Prosecution, now the question is

 7     clear to me.  I can only circle a few numbers or, rather, a few names

 8     here and a few names that I've added myself.  The names that I added are:

 9     "Bagi, Josip; Tkalac, Jelica; Tkalac, Franja; Pakic, Vlado; Pakic

10     Rosalija."  I put circles around the following:  Vuksanic, Branko and

11     Vuksanic, Nikola; the village doctor and his father.  Another person,

12     Fumic, Marko.

13             The other persons from this list, I can just say that I know

14     their last names and, I can say that it is true that most of the persons

15     on this list carried out an exchange and went to Croatia or even beyond,

16     further abroad.

17             That is my response to your question.

18        Q.   Can you tell us these other names of these persons that carried

19     out an exchange?

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, those people that

21     exchanged property, I don't know whether you know this or not, which ones

22     were the ones that voluntarily exchanged their property without being

23     influenced by anything, and those that decided to carry out an exchange

24     because they had to?  Are you able to make the difference?

25             I'm telling you this because in 1991, 1992, in the beginning,

Page 10408

 1     some people may have felt that in light of the situation, in light of

 2     what might happen, it might be better to leave without anybody asking

 3     them to leave in any way.  These people left of their own free will.

 4     Were there any of these or not?  Only you can tell.  Are you able to make

 5     this difference or not?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, and I do have

 7     information that there are persons who carried out voluntary exchanges at

 8     the very beginning.  Later on, everything that happened was either under

 9     duress, or out of fear, or the motive was the following:  "My friends

10     left, my family left, so I'm going to leave too."  I'm aware of two

11     examples from the very beginning of persons who did this voluntarily.

12     That's the Jogar [phoen] family.  I think they carried out an exchange

13     for a property in Zagreb.  Now Ulemek, Nikola is the owner.  He works on

14     waterworks maintenance in the local commune.  He confirmed that as well.

15             Also, I know from earlier on, from the daughter of the -- rather,

16     the daughters of Mr. Jogar lived in Zagreb earlier on, so that led him to

17     sell his house, and he had this opportunity to carry out an exchange.

18     And then there's the family Olidenko [phoen].  That man's daughter also

19     lived in Zagreb earlier on.  So these are the first two persons that I am

20     aware of who carried out an exchange voluntarily.  I believe that

21     everything else was done either out of fear or under different types of

22     threat.

23             I have no specific evidence, hard evidence, except for a few

24     cases where I was personally present; namely, Fumic, Marko, then Tkalac,

25     Zenica, Franja.  Specifically, as far as Marko Fumic is concerned, he had

Page 10409

 1     been attacked and threatened by death.  The police recorded this and

 2     certain action was taken.  Tkalac, Zenica, and Tkalac, Franja, they also

 3     carried out an exchange, but earlier on their house had been attacked.  A

 4     grenade had been thrown at their front door, facing the street.

 5             A few persons who had been tortured physically remained,

 6     nevertheless.  I know the family -- well, they're related to me, too.  It

 7     is Jozika, my wife's brother, Bagi, and this family that I also added to

 8     the list.  They were thrown out and attacked physically:  Pakic, Vlado;

 9     Pakic, Rosalija.  To this day, they lived in Hrtkovci, but for a few days

10     they were out of their house.  There is a police record of that, too.

11     The police stopped the culprits from stealing things from them, and then

12     they were returned to their home.

13             That is what I can confirm in relation to this list.

14        Q.   Concerning this Marko Fumic --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honour, I'd like to move in closed session

17     because I want to use a document coming from the Serbian Archives.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private

19     session.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10410











11 Pages 10410-10411 redacted. Private session.















Page 10412

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

 5             MR. FERRARA:

 6        Q.   You can continue, Mr. Ejic.

 7        A.   As for the Marko Fumic case, I know the following:

 8             On that day, I went to visit his brother, Milan.  I had business

 9     dealings with him.  It was towards the evening, and in front of the house

10     of Marko Fumic I noticed that there were two or three police cars parked

11     and a policeman or two in front of his house.  When I went to his

12     brother, Milan, Marko came a bit later.  He told him that he needed to go

13     to the police station in Ruma to give a statement, and since he needed to

14     go with his own car, and the police was going to drive him in the police

15     car, he needed somebody to drive his own car in order to be able to come

16     back home.  His brother couldn't do it because he was busy, he had some

17     other previous engagement, so I offered to do it, which means -- or,

18     rather, Marko told me that he was told to bring the car documents and to

19     have somebody drive his car.

20             At the police station, I waited in the corridor, and I heard from

21     Marko and I also saw an unfamiliar person wearing a camouflage uniform

22     when they went to the bathroom.  That's when I saw them.  They put some

23     questions to me at the police station.  They wanted to know to what

24     extent the village was informed about this event.  I answered that I

25     supposed that the village knew about this, because later on I heard that

Page 10413

 1     neighbours reported to the police that some unfamiliar people came to

 2     visit Marko.  It was reported by Dobrosav Markovic and his wife, Violeta.

 3     They saw that, they reported it to the police, and then the news spread

 4     throughout the village.

 5             What seemed striking to me in this note, which I consider not to

 6     be correct, was that a sniper rifle was found in Marko's house.  It is

 7     true that a rifle was found, but it was an air gun.  Later on, when Marko

 8     left, I bought that rifle off him, and that caused me to have problems as

 9     well.  This is how I know what kind of rifle he had.

10        Q.   Maybe there's a misunderstanding, because in the English version

11     the sniper rifle is in the possession of Ostoja Sibincic, because I don't

12     know what you read exactly -- did you read exactly?  I read in my version

13     it's Ostoja Sibincic from Hrtkovci was in collusion with them and gave

14     them information on Croatian extremists in Hrtkovci.  "He was found in

15     possession."  I think "he" is Ostoja Sibincic who was found in possession

16     of a sniper rifle, not Marko Fumic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's how it says in the Serbian

18     version as well.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I then

20     misinterpreted.  I thought that it was found in Marko Fumic's house.  I

21     hereby correct myself.

22             What I know from Marko Fumic himself, who shortly after these

23     events moved to Croatia, having carried out an exchange, is that they

24     issued a death threat to him on that occasion.  They threatened to

25     eliminate him.  And even as he was on his way to the bathroom, in the

Page 10414

 1     corridor, one of these men threatened him, telling him that he had to

 2     move out from Hrtkovci or else he would be eliminated.  And then it was

 3     done on another occasion as well, since the first one wasn't successful.

 4             After this interview, we went to visit a friend who is a lawyer

 5     in Ruma and who used to work at the Secretariat earlier, so we explained

 6     the case to him and asked for his advice, and he told us that it would be

 7     best for him to carry out an exchange because he couldn't guarantee his

 8     safety or help him in any way concerning this problem.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] While you were answering

10     questions by the Prosecution, I was having a look at the document.  I was

11     therefore looking at the document, and I saw the following:  There is a

12     whole series of events taking place, and they will trigger the departure

13     of Croats, Croat residents.  This document shows that there are

14     individuals carrying out certain actions, and a whole lot of events are

15     being described here.  It seems that the local authorities are doing

16     their best, and when the authorities realise that some people are

17     forcibly expelled, investigations are carried out and the judicial

18     authorities take action.  This is not chaos, nor anarchy, because

19     judicial authorities take action and decisions are made by judges.

20             The person who wrote this document simply explains that

21     perpetrators were released by the judges due to the issue of refugees,

22     very numerous refugees, and that there may be some reaction from the

23     refugees, so they are released.

24             This report also indicates that members of the Radical Serb

25     Party, for instance, on the 1st June 1992, will play a specific role.

Page 10415

 1             Still in that document, members of the Voluntary Serb Guard are

 2     referred to, and, for example, on the 11th of May, 1992, they kidnapped

 3     several refugees.  The report concludes by saying that the behaviour of

 4     the members of the Voluntary Serb Guard is problematic.

 5             To your knowledge, Witness, who are these people?  Who are the

 6     members of those -- this voluntary Serb guard, who are they, because it

 7     seems that they are playing an important role here, so who are they,

 8     exactly?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not aware of

10     that, and I think that this information has been made up, that there were

11     no such situations in Hrtkovci.  At least I'm not aware of them.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Were you saying that it was

13     fabricated, because it's written in that document?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of that, Your

15     Honours.  And I correct myself, the part where I said that it was made

16     up, fabricated.  If it says so in the document, I'm simply not aware of

17     it.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Still in the document, of

19     course, my fellow Judges and myself will review that document more

20     in-depth, but it says that in your area, TO members came, TO members from

21     Krajina.  The document indicates that they, too, occupied Croat

22     apartments and so on, and it seems that they also carry out specific

23     actions.  This document says that there are paramilitary forces.

24             Again, to your knowledge, did these individuals actually come?

25     This is in the third paragraph before the end of the document.

Page 10416

 1             We're in open session.  Maybe we should move to private session.

 2     Let's move back into private session.

 3             Mr. Registrar, let's move back into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10417











11 Page 10417 redacted. Private session.















Page 10418

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

24             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender into evidence also

25     the list marked by the witness.

Page 10419

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have not received the list marked

 2     by the witness.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We would like you to show the

 4     list to Mr. Seselj.  He needs to have a look at it.

 5             Madam Usher, could you please show the list to Mr. Seselj so that

 6     he can have a look at the markings.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Registrar tells me that you

 9     will receive a copy just after the break, but you will be shown the

10     document right away.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Once I see this document, I will

12     give you my position.  I can't go over it in a very short period of time.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay, fine.  We'll discuss this

14     again after the break, and during the break a copy will be made

15     available.

16             Mr. Ferrara, please proceed.

17             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18        Q.   Mr. Ejic, you mentioned Rade Cakmak.  Who is Rade Cakmak?  No,

19     you said yesterday "Rade Cakmak."  My question is another one.

20             Do you know if Rade Cakmak and/or Ostoja Sibincic were arrested?

21        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I am acquainted with Rade Cakmak, and I know that

22     Ostoja Sibincic, Rade Cakmak and some other people, such as

23     Mirko Paunovic, and I also think the son of Rade Cakmak, that all of them

24     were arrested during the reign of Prime Minister Milan Panic, who ordered

25     them to be arrested due to acts that they committed.

Page 10420

 1        Q.   For -- do you know the charge?

 2        A.   What I know was violence towards other persons, instigation of

 3     violence, and unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition.

 4             MR. FERRARA:  Mr. Registrar, please, can we have on the screen

 5     the document bearing the 65 ter number 1615.

 6        Q.   Can you read this document?  Not loudly; on your own.

 7             Are these the weapons that were found in the possession of

 8     Ostoja Sibincic?  Do you know it?  It is a receipt of a search.

 9        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

10             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document into

11     evidence.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Can we have a

13     number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number P552.

15             MR. FERRARA:  Mr. Registrar, please, can we have another document

16     on the screen.  It is 65 ter number 1610.

17        Q.   Please, can you read this document on your own?  Do you know if

18     these were the weapons that were found in the possession of Rade Cakmak?

19        A.   I can confirm that I have only heard that weapons were found on

20     him, but I can't confirm the details contained here, whether they're

21     accurate.

22             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document into

23     evidence.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have a number, please.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number P553.

Page 10421

 1             MR. FERRARA:

 2        Q.   Do you know if they were convicted of the crimes charged,

 3     Rade Cakmak and Ostoja Sibincic?

 4        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I know that they were convicted.  They spent a

 5     long time in detention, too, and that time was taken into account when

 6     sentencing them.  I heard that Sibincic was sentenced and then that the

 7     sentence was suspended.  It was a two-year sentence, and that's how long

 8     he spent in detention.  There were two separate trials.  One was

 9     concerning violence and instigation to violence, and the other trial was

10     for weapons possession.  I don't know about the other case, whether he

11     was sentenced and whether he served the sentence, the other case being

12     the one for firearms possession.  That's all I know about these two

13     cases.

14             MR. FERRARA:  Mr. Registrar, please, can we have on the screen

15     the document bearing 65 ter number 1837.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the purposes of the

17     transcript, I'd like to record that this judgement issued by a tribunal

18     describes the conviction and sentences of imprisonment for Sibincic as

19     well as Cakmak.  However, such sentences are suspended.

20             In the reasons why these people are being convicted, it is

21     referred to, the unlawful possession of weapons, but there is nothing

22     about political motives.  So it seems that what is being described here

23     is individual behaviours, individual conducts.  Nothing is said about the

24     wider political context at the time.  Nothing to that effect is

25     indicated.  However, forcible exchanges of apartments are referred to,

Page 10422

 1     but we don't know who's behind all this.  At least the judgement remains

 2     silent on that issue.

 3             So please put your question to the witness.

 4             MR. FERRARA:

 5        Q.   Is this the conviction which you referred to before?

 6        A.   Yes --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the rest of the

 8     sentence because there is paper shuffling.

 9             MR. FERRARA:

10        Q.   Can you repeat your answer?

11        A.   Yes, yes, that is the judgement that I'm aware of.

12             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I would like to tender these

13     documents into evidence.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give this judicial

15     document an exhibit number, please.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number P554.

17             MR. FERRARA:

18        Q.   You say that the arrest of Ostoja Sibincic and Rade Cakmak was

19     ordered by the Minister of Interior, led by Mr. Panic, I think.  Do you

20     have a meeting -- did you personally have a meeting to the Minister of

21     Interior to discuss what was happening in Hrtkovci in 1992?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

23             Mr. Ferrara is misinterpreting the witness's statement.  The

24     witness stated, and I wrote that down, that the then federal

25     prime minister, Milan Panic, issued an order for their arrest or, rather,

Page 10423

 1     ordered their arrest.  He did not mention any Minister of the Interior or

 2     Minister of Foreign Affairs.

 3             MR. FERRARA:  You're right, it was a misunderstanding.

 4        Q.   When you refer to this order of arrest issued by the

 5     prime minister, how do you know that the prime minister was interested in

 6     the arrest of this Ostoja Sibincic and Rade Cakmak?

 7        A.   Well, I know he was interested on the basis of what I knew from

 8     the public domain, from the media.  Also, from the information obtained

 9     from a delegation that then visited the Minister for Human Rights, and

10     afterwards the federal SUP, where we presented information about what was

11     going on in Hrtkovci.  I imagine that it was on the basis of that

12     information, too, that he ordered the arrest of those persons, Sibincic

13     and Cakmak.

14        Q.   How did you inform the federal SUP?

15        A.   Pero Bjegovic, one of our residents who was a policeman at the

16     federal SUP at the time, he helped us.  He made it possible for us to

17     schedule this kind of meeting.  I cannot remember exactly who it was that

18     had received us; but I know that we then presented the facts concerning

19     the behaviour of Sibincic and people around him, the violence that was

20     involved, mentioned Rade Cakmak and many other things that were happening

21     at the time in Hrtkovci.

22             A note was compiled concerning all our remarks, and I assume that

23     what followed soon afterwards way this intervention by Mr. Panic to have

24     these two arrested.

25        Q.   When you say "he made it possible for us to schedule this kind of

Page 10424

 1     meeting," who participated in this meeting?  You, of course, and after?

 2        A.   Samo, Nedeljka; Karlac, Vranja; Karlac, Marija; Momic, Slobodan

 3     [Realtime transcript read in error, "Milosevic" and somebody else.  I

 4     can't remember all the names now.  Five or six of us attended this

 5     meeting.  Previously, this group had been to see the minister.  I think

 6     his last name was Grubac.  Then we went to the federal SUP.

 7             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honour, I think there's an error --

 8             THE COURT:  Mr. Ferrara, one moment.  To enable you to get

 9     yourself organised, I'd just like to tell you that you have 30 minutes

10     left.

11             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             Your Honours, in the transcript, I think one of the participants

13     of the meeting was not Slobodan Milosevic.  Maybe in the transcript there

14     is some mistake.

15        Q.   So you say Karlac, and Slobodan, and --

16        A.   Slobodan Momic, yes.

17        Q.   Who was the minister at the time?  Sorry, the minister --

18        A.   I'm not 100 per cent sure, but Minister Grubac was the Minister

19     for Human Rights or something like that.

20        Q.   And the Minister of Interior?

21        A.   I don't know about that.

22        Q.   Do you know what happened to Ivan Stefanac?

23        A.   Yes, I do know.  People talked about it, and I know about it from

24     the media too.  What happened to him was murder on the road between

25     Hrtkovci and Nikinci.  Official proceedings were instituted in relation

Page 10425

 1     to this case.  He was run over by a passenger vehicle several times, and

 2     it was deemed manslaughter.  Mijat Stevanac was a resident of Hrtkovci.

 3     Before the murder, he lived in Hrtkovci.

 4        Q.   Is it Ivan or Mijat, the first name?

 5        A.   Stefanac.  I know him by his nickname, "Mijat."  Now, whether

 6     "Ivan" is his real name, I cannot confirm.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, we have already had

 8     documents here concerning the trial of his murderers, and on the basis of

 9     that we know that his real name is Mijat.  The Prosecutor should

10     familiarise himself with all the documents that have been introduced

11     until now, and it is only then that he can continue his examination.

12             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, the Prosecutor is perfectly familiar.

13     The statement is indicated "Ivan," in the documents it is indicated

14     "Mijat," so it's important for the witness to clarify.  Don't worry,

15     Mr. Seselj, about that, the [indiscernible] of the Prosecutor with the

16     documents.

17        Q.   Can I show you some press articles?

18             Please, Mr. Registrar, please can we have on the screen the

19     65 ter number 1350.

20             Do you remember this open letter that was written to the

21     residents of Hrtkovci, indicated in this article?

22        A.   Yes, I do remember.  I know that this is my former neighbour or,

23     rather, neighbours, Musa and Branka Jasarevic.  I cannot recall all the

24     articles, it's been a long time, hasn't it; but I know what this is

25     written about and I know the persons in the photograph who are described

Page 10426

 1     in the article.

 2        Q.   Who is this person in the photograph?

 3        A.   The person that can be seen in the photograph, the first one

 4     standing there with a pitch fork, is Musa Jasarevic, and in the back is

 5     his wife, Branka.  I think the picture was taken at the door of their

 6     room or some other part of the house.

 7        Q.   Do you know if they were threatened, or were they forced to

 8     leave?

 9        A.   I know about what happened to me, too.  I know that on one

10     occasion, two ladies came to see me.  They had a small piece of paper in

11     their hands.  They said that they got this from Ostoja Sibincic, that the

12     number of this house said that this was a house that was supposed to be

13     exchanged.  I laughed and I said, "Where is your house that you want to

14     exchange?"  And then mentioned Slatina or something like that, and I

15     said, "Thank you, but that will not do.  If you have something in Serbia,

16     then perhaps we can carry out an exchange."  They were a bit surprised

17     and they said, "Oh, you're not a Croat?"  And I said, "No," and then they

18     apologised and they went further on.

19             As for my neighbour Jasarevic, I heard that there were similar

20     visits that were paid to him.  Since they are related to Marko Fumic, I

21     assume that the main motive, in addition to the one that was present in

22     my case, was the fear based on what had happened to Marko.  So that is

23     why they opted for an exchange.

24             That is my opinion and knowledge in relation to the Jasarevic

25     family.

Page 10427

 1             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document into

 2     evidence.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number P555.

 5             MR. FERRARA:  Please, can we have on the screen the document with

 6     the 65 ter number 1524.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before you proceed,

 8     Mr. Ferrara, can I ask you whether you intend discussing document 7271?

 9             MR. FERRARA:  Yes, Your Honour, I'd like to discuss that.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Be careful, because

11     the clock is ticking.

12             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have that document.  I have

14     7270 and then 7272.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is a report stemming

16     from --

17             MR. FERRARA:  I read this, 7272.  I will not talk about document

18     7271, only 7272.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't wish to discuss it?

20     That's a problem, because as far as the procedure is concerned, I cannot

21     talk about a document which you do not discuss.

22             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, the document is exactly the part of

23     the beginning of the verdict that I tender it.  That's the reason why I

24     don't want to discuss it.  In any case, Mr. Seselj is aware of this

25     document because we disclosed it to him on the 1st of October, 2008.

Page 10428

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj will

 2     discuss it; I don't know.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know what this is all

 5     about, Mr. President.  I just have here the documents that the Prosecutor

 6     had kindly prepared for me for this witness.  I cannot keep dragging

 7     6.000 documents around all the time, nor can I remember the numbers of

 8     all 6.000 documents involved.  I have no idea what this is all about.

 9             I have a binder here, and in order to carry less, I took out of

10     the binder the documents that the Prosecutor prepared for this witness.

11             MR. FERRARA:  You should have the documents --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, normally speaking,

13     you should have this document, since it is in the binder that has been

14     provided to the Bench.

15             This is an indictment issued by the Ruma prosecutor on the 15th

16     of September, 1992, against Sibincic and Cakmak.  That is the document in

17     question.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. FERRARA:

20        Q.   Mr. Ejic, can you read this article on your own?  Are you

21     familiar with the article?  Have you read it before, at the time?

22        A.   I am not familiar with it.

23        Q.   Let's move, in this case, to the document with the 65 ter

24     number 1309.  Mr. Ejic, are you familiar with this document?

25        A.   A lot was written in the newspapers.  It's been a long time since

Page 10429

 1     then.  I can't remember everything.  I don't remember this.

 2        Q.   Which one are you reading; the one below, this one?  It has the

 3     title "Half of the village ..." in the English.  Can you read the end of

 4     the article, where you're expressly mentioned?  It should be the last

 5     paragraph.  It's the last column.

 6        A.   Yes, I have read it.  Yes, I've read it, I've seen my name.  I

 7     know this document from the press.  I remember this, now that I have read

 8     it.  Now that I have read parts of it, that is.

 9        Q.   Did you give an interview at the time with this statement?

10        A.   Yes, I did give an interview.  Like many of the persons mentioned

11     here, Dragutin Todorovic and others.

12             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document into

13     evidence.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give it an exhibit

15     number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, Exhibit number P556.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One point of clarification,

18     Witness.

19             Are you of Hungarian descent or -- is part of your family

20     Hungarian or are you Serb?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am a Serb by birth.

22     My father is a Serb and my mother is a Catholic from Bosnia.  My way of

23     thinking is not ethnic-based.  I'm more of a cosmopolitan person.  My

24     wife is an ethnic Hungarian.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Your wife was

Page 10430

 1     Hungarian; is that right?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, my wife is an

 3     ethnic Hungarian.

 4             THE COURT:  Very well.

 5             MR. FERRARA:  Please, can we have on the screen the 65 ter

 6     number 7270.

 7        Q.   Can you read on your own the first paragraph?  It should be --

 8     your statement should be there.

 9        A.   I've read it.

10        Q.   Are you familiar with this document?  Have you given -- did you

11     give the time and interview to this journalist?

12        A.   Yes, I am aware of this, and I remember having given this

13     interview.

14             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender the document into

15     evidence.  This document --

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number, please.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number P557.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Prosecutor, I appreciate your bringing these

19     things to us, but it would be helpful if you would at least draw our

20     attention to the parts of these interviews which are relevant to the

21     issues that we are discussing here.

22             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honour, I think the entire article is related

23     to our case, because it's a long list of interviewed people from Hrtkovci

24     that were threatened or were maltreated, were forcible expelled, so of

25     course I'm asking to the witness only the part that he is personally

Page 10431

 1     involved with, because he gave this interview, but the whole article

 2     related to the events that occurred in Hrtkovci at that time.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And what exactly does the articles show; that the

 4     witness confirms that people were expelled from Hrtkovci?

 5             MR. FERRARA:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Is that the point?

 7             MR. FERRARA:  A corroboration of what the witness is saying today

 8     in court.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have five minutes left

11     before the break.

12             MR. FERRARA:  Please, can we show to the witness the last press

13     article.  It is 7272, the 65 ter number.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, this is not an original

15     article at all.  This is a copy of the alleged article.  Somebody simply

16     copied it, rewrote it.

17             I did not object to the first article, but since you agreed to

18     admit into evidence newspaper articles, I think that the actual articles

19     should be put forth, rather than something that the Prosecutor claims

20     that is the content of the article.  We cannot see it on the basis of

21     this.  It has to be a photocopy of the article from the newspaper, and

22     then there has to be a translation into Serbian.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, what do you have

24     to say to this?

25             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, we don't have the original of the

Page 10432

 1     article, but it is a transcript, it is indicated the source and the

 2     copyright, it is a Chicago Tribune Company and the newspaper is the

 3     "Chicago Tribune," so I think it's enough to tender the document into

 4     evidence.  We have the transcript of the article in the English version,

 5     and the translation in the B/C/S version.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly, the

 7     OTP received the entire article, and based on that, made excerpts that we

 8     have.  Is that right, is that how things happened?  Don't you have the

 9     original article?  It must be somewhere with the OTP.

10             MR. FERRARA:  I will look for it, but I didn't find it by now.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the excerpts, pages 11 and

12     12 are mentioned, so this must have been a 12- to 13-page document, I'm

13     sure.  Could you see whether you can find it?

14             Please proceed.  No, we're going to have the break now, because

15     it is now 10.30.  Perhaps you can check and see whether you can find the

16     entire document.

17             In the meantime, I believe you have something like ten minutes

18     left, maximum.  You have 15 minutes left.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

22             Mr. Seselj received the document.  Mr. Seselj, do you have any

23     observations on the document regarding the 700 people; 722, to be more

24     specific, plus the 6 that were added by the witness, so 728 in total,

25     those people who would have left from the area?  And I believe the

Page 10433

 1     Prosecutor has already asked the further document to be admitted into

 2     evidence.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I fully agree, I fully agree

 4     to have this document admitted into evidence, together with the notes

 5     made by the witness, because the witness was one of the most influential

 6     political figures in Hrtkovci in the relevant period of time, and if he

 7     wasn't able to list more than eight names out of a total of over 700,

 8     728, so he circled just eight names of persons who could be said that

 9     they left Hrtkovci under threats and so on, then in that light this is,

10     in fact, a Defence exhibit, not the Prosecution exhibit.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have an exhibit

12     number, please, Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number P558.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Mr. Ferrara, you've provided a copy of the new document; right?

16             MR. FERRARA:  Yes, Your Honour -- no, no, no, Mr. Seselj provided

17     this document to use in the cross, I think.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I thought it came from you.

19     No, it's coming from Mr. Seselj.  Fine.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. FERRARA:  Yes, Your Honours.  Regarding these articles, my

22     case manager informed me that we will be able to find probably the

23     original in the afternoon, so we can start discussing it with the witness

24     today and --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We'll see.  There

Page 10434

 1     will be a hearing tomorrow, so we can continue tomorrow.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. FERRARA:

 4        Q.   Mr. Ejic, please, can you read this document, this article?  Are

 5     you familiar with it?  Did you give an interview to the journalist of the

 6     "Chicago Tribune?"  You were mentioned in the second page.

 7             Maybe you can move to the second page, Mr. Registrar.

 8        A.   I have read it, and, yes, I am familiar with this article.  I

 9     remember giving this statement to -- to this media outlet.

10             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this document

11     into evidence.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will mark this document for

14     identification, and we'll wait for the rest of the document.

15     Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be MFI P559.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a short

18     question for you.

19             When you met that American journalist working for this Chicago

20     newspaper, and when you describe all the events which took place for him,

21     when we see the document we can see that some of the things that are

22     described in the article you've also mentioned during your statement,

23     during the answers you've provided, and we also find the same description

24     in other documents.  But why didn't the journalist, in his article, why

25     didn't he try and find out who was behind all this?  Why didn't he ask

Page 10435

 1     you the following:  "You've just said that such-and-such events took

 2     place.  Who are these people?"

 3             In the article, armed men are mentioned, but we don't know who

 4     they are.  During the interview, didn't you know who these people were?

 5             When you're a journalist and you want to write an article, of

 6     course you want to describe what happened, but then you also want to know

 7     who was behind such acts, including politicians, as the case may be.

 8     When I take a look at pages 11 and 12 of the article, I can't find this,

 9     so my question is:  Did the journalist do his job or didn't you know

10     exactly who were the men behind those events or those actions?

11             Sibincic, the famous Sibincic, is mentioned in the article, for

12     instance, and here we are in July 1993, but Sibincic is identified as

13     being a former soldier.  We're not saying or we're not reading Sibincic

14     is a member of that particular movement of the Serbian Radical Party and

15     so on.  This is not said in that article.

16             So what's your opinion about this?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I could

18     understand your question, the journalist, who interviewed me as well, did

19     not formulate his questions in those terms, "Who are these armed people,

20     what are their names," and so on.  I just told him, in general terms,

21     that I knew that the refugees who had come to our town had weapons that

22     hadn't been confiscated at the border.  I think it should have been done.

23     I think that those words of mine were reproduced in the article, and also

24     the kinds of weapons that I had in mind when I said that they were armed.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry.

Page 10436

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me start again.

 2             There are many details in the article, an extraordinary number of

 3     details.  For instance, Franja Tkalac has his 42-year-old,

 4     [as interpreted], we also know who he was married to.  There are many,

 5     many details, and the more -- the most important thing, which is of

 6     course the most important political issue about what's going on.  What's

 7     going on, well, then the journalist is not interested in that particular

 8     issue.  And apparently this is a 12-page article, we only have two of

 9     them, but it seems that it's a very long article, and of course we need

10     to see what the rest of the article is.  And then what you're saying is

11     the journalist didn't ask.  I take note of your answer, but I'm quite

12     surprised by it.

13             Let me add that a few names are mentioned, Sibincic among others.

14     It is indicated that he was a former soldier, but of course some other

15     things could have been said about him, although there aren't.

16             That's all I wanted to say, but I wanted it to be recorded in the

17     transcript so that everybody was aware of it.

18             Since I have the floor, I don't want to interrupt Mr. Prosecutor,

19     but a moment ago I was talking about a document which the Prosecutor will

20     not submit.  This is a report coming from the Prosecutor, but which has a

21     link with the judgement issued which was admitted.  We spoke of that a

22     moment ago, we said both sentences against Sibincic and Cakmak.

23             When a trial takes place, sir, but you know about it, of course,

24     because you were living in that area, when a trial takes place there's

25     first of all an indictment, charges, defined by the local prosecutor.

Page 10437

 1     Who's the local prosecutor?  In this case, this is the Ruma prosecutor.

 2     He prepares an indictment.  Looking at the indictment or the list of

 3     charges, I see that there is a very specific description of all the

 4     events which took place.  In particular, in his report he gives names,

 5     names of the perpetrators, among which Mr. Sibincic is to be found, and,

 6     and I believe this is very important here, the prosecutor describes the

 7     offences perpetrated by Sibincic and the others, and he indicates that

 8     these were acts against the freedom and the rights of the citizens of

 9     other nations or other ethnic groups, and he says this is in violation of

10     Article 61(A), paragraph 1, of the Criminal Code of Serbia.  This

11     prosecutor reports to the legal authorities in place at the time.  He

12     reports to the judge such offences constituted by crimes with an ethnic

13     connotation, and then he provides a long list of victims.

14             The question that comes to my mind is the following:  We have a

15     prosecutor which reports to the power in place at the time.  He's

16     pinpointing all the events that are taking place at the time.  To your

17     opinion, is the prosecutor doing so on behalf of the Republic of Serbia,

18     because he's in fact an agent of the Republic of Serbia and he's, in

19     fact, expressing his condemnation of what's going on at the time?  Now,

20     in your opinion, don't you think that he's trying to show that the

21     authority in place at the time is actually opposed to what's going on?

22     What do you think?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you for putting

24     this question to me.  It will be a pleasure to reply.

25             My opinion and that of my many people who submitted criminal

Page 10438

 1     complaints against unidentified perpetrators, many of these criminal

 2     complaints ended up in the drawers of the prosecution.  It is my opinion,

 3     and I'm convinced of this based on my own case, is that the prosecutor

 4     did not act on behalf of the state in all cases, only when he was forced

 5     due to numerous articles and pressures and calls from citizens and their

 6     complaints, only when he felt he absolutely needed to do something about

 7     it.

 8             If you wish, I can further elaborate and confirm my own belief.

 9     I will quote my own case.

10             I was once thrown out of commercial premises that I was leasing

11     from the local commune.  I was evicted by a group of seven, the majority

12     of whom were members of the Serbian Radical Party.  After I was evicted,

13     I went and reported the case to the SUP on the phone, and the person on

14     duty there directed me to contact the local police force.  When I was

15     about to do that, I came out of my house only to come across a police car

16     parked in front of my street.  I was shocked.  I couldn't believe how

17     expeditious they were, coming to protect me.  However, I was told that

18     there was a criminal complaint against me submitted by seven citizens,

19     claiming that I threatened to kill them, brandishing a weapon.  They

20     asked me whether I had a weapon.  I showed them and showed my license for

21     carrying a weapon.  They confiscated the weapon and never returned it to

22     me.

23             After that, I was taken into the police station, interviewed for

24     some two hours, and then a criminal complaint was filed against me by an

25     inspector or a prosecutor.

Page 10439

 1             As for my complaint, it remained in a drawer.  And when the trial

 2     started, I had to file a private suit against people who had evicted me

 3     from commercial premises.

 4             Thank you, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I agree with you that for some

 6     of the complaints, nothing was done, but in this case the prosecutor did

 7     do something.  There is a victim with the same name as yours.  However,

 8     the first name is Kristijan.  Is he a relative?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean -- that's my son.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Your son was

11     interviewed, because in the prosecutor's report, the statement of your

12     son is mentioned, so you knew -- you knew that there had been a serious

13     investigation and that following that investigation, the prosecutor had

14     information about your son?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  I don't

16     know what situation you have in mind.  Which particular case?

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Kristijan Ejic, you said he's

18     your son, was heard as a witness in that particular case.  About

19     Josip Bagi, Rade Cakmak and so on, so there was an investigation carried

20     out by the prosecutor?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember now.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You see, nothing escapes me, I

23     see everything, and I noticed that there had been an investigation.  So,

24     yes, indeed, maybe some prosecutors put some complaints in the drawers,

25     as you say, but other prosecutors did take action.  This prosecutor

Page 10440

 1     recorded dozens of victims and prepared an indictment which contains the

 2     list of all the victims, so he did his job in 1992, since the indictment

 3     bears the date of September, 15th of September, 1992.

 4             That's all I wanted to comment upon with you.  You've just

 5     confirmed that your son was interviewed as a witness and that

 6     Mr. Sibincic was charged and sentenced.

 7             Mr. Ferrara.

 8             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I believe that to fully understand

 9     the document that we have already tendered the judgement regarding this

10     trial against Ostoja Sibincic and Rade Cakmak, now the Prosecutor asked

11     to tender into evidence also this document, the indictment that you have

12     discussed now.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Can we have an

14     exhibit number for P7271.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  That will be Exhibit P560.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A bit earlier, the Prosecutor said

17     that he did not intend to tender this document.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but now he's tendered that

19     document.

20             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honour, also to be clear, these last three

21     documents, number -- the indictment, that is, number 7271, and the last

22     two articles, number 7270 and 7272, are not still included in the

23     Prosecution exhibit list, so I request to add these three documents to

24     the Prosecution exhibit list, due to their relevance and probative value.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to consult my

Page 10441

 1     colleagues.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber also rises,

 4     Prosecution, to add these three documents onto its exhibit list.  Let me

 5     remind you that as far as document 7272 is concerned, we have already

 6     given it an MFI number.  We are awaiting the entire article.

 7             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And another

 8     [indiscernible] on the line -- on page 38, line 5, this article is

 9     indicated as published in July 1993, but it's 1992.

10        Q.   Mr. Ejic, last few questions.  Did you suffer any kind of a

11     persecution for your position regarding these facts that you described

12     today -- in these two days?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you describe for us what happened?

15        A.   As I have mentioned earlier in my evidence, there was a setup.  I

16     was falsely accused when I was evicted from commercial premises.  There

17     were proceedings that lasted for a long time, and in the end, to my great

18     joy and pleasure, certain individuals who had accused me, and they were

19     and are to this day members of the Serbian Radical Party, they changed

20     their statement and confessed in court that they had done it for

21     political reasons, that they practically had lied, that it only seemed to

22     them that I had threatened them.  Since this suit lasted for a long time

23     and I was harassed, I was visited every two weeks by members of the State

24     Security who interviewed me, and there was also an accusation by Sibincic

25     when his car was blown up, and there was a group of people, and I was a

Page 10442

 1     member of that group, who opposed everything, and Sibincic accused that

 2     group of that crime.  All of us were arrested and taken to the police

 3     station.  We were kept there the entire night and interviewed.  They even

 4     brought in an expert with a lie detector from Novi Sad.  In the end, they

 5     released all of us, having realised, I guess, that it was all false.

 6             Following that event, I also had constant visits by members of

 7     the State Security.  I was frequently searched by police.  On one

 8     occasion, even a police commander came with two police vehicles early in

 9     the morning.

10        Q.   Did they find something relevant in your house when they searched

11     you -- your house?

12        A.   The first time when they carried out a search, they found several

13     copies -- or, rather, several bullets from my weapon that had remained in

14     a drawer in my room.  These bullets had not been confiscated on the

15     occasion when my pistol was confiscated.  They also found an air gun

16     which had a sniper on it.  They abused it.  It was abused by Vukelja and

17     others, who gave a statement saying that a sniper had been found in my

18     house, without clarifying that it was actually an air gun.  As a result

19     of that, I had threats by the villagers who were saying, "Aleksa Ejic has

20     a sniper and intends to use it against refugees."

21             In the end, I was forced -- I apologise.  Forgive me.  I was

22     forced to travel to the South African Republic, which was the only

23     country where one could travel at the time with a tourist visa.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, if you feel emotional

25     about this, we can stop for a few minutes.

Page 10443

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I am a bit distressed.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you like us to have a

 3     short break?

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, please.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have a ten-minute break.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 11.26 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 11.38 a.m.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Court is back in session.

 9             Do you feel better, Witness?  Can we proceed?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I feel

11     better now.  We can continue.

12             I would just like to ask you for something.  If possible, could

13     you avoid questions in relation to my family?  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  If there are any

15     questions that concern your family, we shall move into closed session.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17             MR. FERRARA:  So, Your Honours, I don't think I have further

18     questions for this witness.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ferrara.

20             My colleague would like to put a question.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Witness, we have been speaking at several occasions about

23     Mr. Sibincic and Mr. Cakmak and others who were active in Hrtkovci in May

24     1992, and my question to you is if you know whether these gentlemen were

25     members of the SRS, the Serb Radical Party, or if they became members of

Page 10444

 1     the SRS, or if they had any particular relation with that party in the

 2     time when these events occurred.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at the time when these

 4     events occurred, I am not aware of these persons having been members of

 5     the Serb Radical Party.  Now, whether they had any direct contacts, I am

 6     not aware of that either.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And do you know if, at any later point in time,

 8     they became members of the SRS?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that I do know in

10     relation to one of these persons, Sibincic.  Today he is a member of the

11     Serb Radical Party.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you happen to know when he became a member of

13     the SRS?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that it was

15     this year.  I don't know the exact date.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And my final question:  Do you know if any of

17     these gentlemen that we have been mentioning here had an affiliation with

18     another political party around the time when the events occurred in 1992?

19     I mean either a political party or a political movement.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ostoja Sibincic was in the Serbian

21     Renewal Movement, together with me, at first when these events took place

22     in Hrtkovci.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much, sir.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question for

25     you.  I would first like to read out to you paragraph 124 of the

Page 10445

 1     Prosecution's pre-trial brief.  This is what the Prosecution says:

 2             "Inter-ethnic tension in Hrtkovci increased in 1991, when the

 3     first Serbian refugees started arriving from Croatia.  The SRS was in

 4     charge of their transport aboard buses to Vojvodina.  These refugees

 5     needed to report to Ostoja Sibincic, a member of the SRS and associate of

 6     Vojislav Seselj in Hrtkovci, since he gave them the addresses of houses

 7     belonging to Croats.  In some cases, owners were abroad and the refugees

 8     settled in their houses.  In other cases, the refugees threatened them to

 9     force them to exchange their homes with those of the refugees in

10     Croatia."

11             What the Prosecution is saying is that Sibincic was a member of

12     the SRS when the refugees arrived.  This is why the question put by my

13     colleague is so important.  I think we have to -- we need to be clear on

14     this.

15             At what time exactly did you learn that Sibincic, who is a member

16     of the SRS today -- what I'm interested in is to know whether he was at

17     the time a member of the SRS.  At what time, if ever he was a member of

18     the SRS at the time, that is, because the Prosecution ascertains that he

19     was a member.  When the refugees arrived he was a member.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not aware of that,

21     whether he was a member earlier on.  What I know today is that he is a

22     member now, that he joined this year or the end of last year.  I cannot

23     give you the exact date.  At the time when the refugees were coming in, I

24     don't know, maybe he was a member, but I don't know about it.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are saying that you know

Page 10446

 1     that he is a member of the SRS today, and you add that this occurred at

 2     the end of last year or the beginning of this year.  Is this because he

 3     told you that he's now a member of the SRS and he showed you his card?

 4     How do you know this?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I know that on the basis of

 6     the statement made by Zeljko Dosen, the president of the local council,

 7     and Krasic, Slobodan, my neighbour who told me about that, and I also

 8     heard about it from him personally at a meeting this year, when

 9     St. Ilija's Day was celebrated.  That is the patron saint of our village.

10     So I heard from him personally that he was a member of the party.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992, you can't say?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that period of

13     time.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question:  You left for

15     South Africa.  Can you tell me at exactly what time you left, the month

16     and the year, please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] April 1993.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How long did you stay there?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think somewhat more than three

20     months.  My first visa was for somewhat less than three months, and then

21     in the town of Springs I extended my visa for another month.  If you need

22     more precise information than that, I have my old passport of the

23     Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia with which I can document that.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand right, you

25     returned in July or August, you returned home, and when you came back,

Page 10447

 1     was everything all right?  You didn't encounter any problems?  You

 2     weren't threatened or accused of anything?  Was it difficult?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, after my return, I did not

 4     have any major problems.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 6             We shall now have the cross-examination, which will last three

 7     hours.  Mr. Seselj, you have the floor, and this will continue tomorrow.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Ejic, since when have you been a member of

10     the Serbian Renewal Movement?

11        A.   Mr. -- Dr. Vojislav Seselj, I have been a member since the local

12     council was established in 1991 or 1992.  I don't know exactly.  I think

13     it was 1991, the autumn of 1991.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, could all of the microphones

15     please be switched off.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I was a member until the local

17     committee was disbanded.  After that, I wasn't a member of any party.

18             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   All right.  Can you recall the month in which the local committee

20     of the SPO was established in Hrtkovci?  That was in 1991?  If you

21     cannot, it doesn't matter.

22        A.   I cannot remember.

23        Q.   You did know at the time that the SPO was still a markedly

24     nationalist party?

25        A.   Yes, I am aware of that.

Page 10448

 1        Q.   It started out as the most extreme nationalist party on the

 2     Serbian political scene; isn't that right?

 3        A.   That's not right.

 4        Q.   Which one was more extreme?

 5        A.   Well, I think the Serb Chetnik Movement and some others.

 6        Q.   Why was the Serb Chetnik Movement more extreme?

 7        A.   Well, the main difference is in the fact that the SPO advocated

 8     the promotion of nationalist tradition without jeopardising other

 9     ethnicities, and it is my opinion that the other movement I referred to

10     did not advocate that.  Rather, through volunteers, they provided support

11     for participating in conflicts in Croatia and Bosnia.

12        Q.   Did the SPO send volunteers to these conflicts?

13        A.   The SPO did.

14        Q.   What was the name of the paramilitary formation of the SPO?

15        A.   It was called "The Serbian Guard."

16        Q.   A few moments ago, in response to the question put by the

17     Presiding Judge as to whether you had ever heard of the Serbian Guard,

18     why did you say that you had never heard of it?

19        A.   Well, because I didn't know which guard this pertained to.

20     Perhaps it was some other Serbian Guard, not the guard of the SPO that I

21     know about.

22        Q.   The logical answer to the Presiding Judge's question could be

23     which Serbian Guard do you have in mind or there are a few Serbian

24     Guards, so let's see which one it could be; right?  You cannot say that

25     you haven't heard of the Serbian Guard; am I not right?

Page 10449

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   All right.  Do you know that Vuk Draskovic, together with his

 3     wife, Danica, published the newspaper "The Serbian Word," "Srpska Rec,"

 4     for years?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   It was a typical news magazine that came out twice a month?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you know that in this newspaper, on the front page

 9     Vuk Draskovic published a map in colour of an ethnic delineation of

10     Yugoslavia which actually coincides with the map of a Greater Serbia?

11        A.   Perhaps on some occasion I did see that, too, but I'm not aware

12     of any details.

13        Q.   Do you know that Vuk Draskovic was one of the most prominent Serb

14     nationalists in the 1980s, after he published his famous novels, "The

15     Knife" and "The Prayer," respectively?

16        A.   Could you put a simpler question to me?  Could you explain to me

17     what it is you mean by "Serb nationalism"?

18        Q.   Well, a Serb nationalist is a man who fights for the interests of

19     his nation, for national emancipation, for the protection of those parts

20     of his nation that are in jeopardy.  That would be it.  In the simplest

21     possible terms, that is to say, a person who cares about his people and

22     strives for its interests.

23        A.   My answer to your question would be the following:  When

24     Vuk Draskovic, as a Serb nationalistic, advocated the promotion of

25     positive Serb traditions, not those of the Chetnik Movement or

Page 10450

 1     Draza Mihajlovic and others during the Second World War.

 2        Q.   Well, who erected the single movement that exists until now to

 3     Draza Mihajlovic in Serbia?

 4        A.   The Serbian Renewal Party.

 5        Q.   And Vuk Draskovic, its long-term president?

 6        A.   No, not Vuk Draskovic, it was the SPO and he is the president of

 7     that party.

 8        Q.   Well, wasn't he the main initiator within that party to erect

 9     this monument?

10        A.   Well, that is true.

11        Q.   Did Vuk Draskovic give an enormous contribution to the

12     rehabilitation the role of General Draza Mihajlovic in the Second World

13     War; is that not an objective fact?

14        A.   Yes, that is true.

15        Q.   Did Vuk Draskovic write a novel about the last days of

16     General Draza Mihajlovic?  His title is "The General"?

17        A.   I've heard about it.  I haven't read it.

18        Q.   So therefore, Vuk Draskovic renewed the traditions of the Chetnik

19     Movement of the Second World War, the Chetnik Movement of

20     Draza Mihajlovic; right?  In some segments, in an even more pronounced

21     way.  Perhaps he had a bit more money.  We were not able to erect a

22     monument.  He did, and he did so.

23        A.   I don't understand your question.  Could you be more specific?

24        Q.   All right.  If you don't understand the question, then I'm going

25     to give up on it.  It's going to remain in the transcript, and that is

Page 10451

 1     self-sufficient.

 2             Did Vuk Draskovic advocate a restoration of the monarchy?  That

 3     is what he advocates to this day, at least verbally?

 4        A.   That is correct.

 5        Q.   Did Vuk Draskovic advocate the interference of the church in

 6     state affairs?

 7        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 8        Q.   Were his political rallies attended by prominent members of the

 9     clergy?

10        A.   I did see some of them.

11        Q.   At the rallies of Vuk Draskovic, were there often grave conflicts

12     and clashes with the police, where people even lost their lives?

13        A.   At one rally, a big one in Belgrade, there was a clash with the

14     police and the authorities.

15        Q.   Only one?

16        A.   Well, perhaps some other smaller ones.  I remember that one

17     particular rally because on the next day I was in Belgrade myself.

18        Q.   On the 9th of March, at the rally in Belgrade, weren't a

19     policeman and a student killed?

20        A.   Exactly.

21        Q.   In 1992, at the rally of Vuk Draskovic in front of the Federal

22     Assembly, wasn't a policeman killed then?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct too.

24        Q.   Did the Serb Radical Party ever have such clashes at its rallies

25     that led to deaths, serious injuries, and so on?

Page 10452

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   When?

 3        A.   Well, this year, too.

 4        Q.   Well, forget about this year.  These two, who organised the rally

 5     this year, have fortunately already left the Serb Radical Party, and how

 6     this conflict was staged is something that remains to be clarified.

 7             The Serb Radical Party, while I was in the fatherland, that is to

 8     say, before I came to The Hague, did it ever have a single clash with the

 9     police anywhere, where injuries were sustained and where deaths occurred?

10        A.   I'm not aware of anything like that.

11        Q.   You're not aware of it because nothing like that ever happened.

12     Had it happened, you'd have to know about it.  Am I not right?

13        A.   I don't know if you're right.

14        Q.   All right, if you don't know.  Anyway, it cannot be said, at any

15     rate, that the Serb Chetnik Movement was more extremist than the SPO,

16     those that have only peaceful demonstrations, peaceful rallies, cannot be

17     any more extremist than those who are always involved in clashes and

18     deaths.  How can they not be more extreme?  Am I right?  Say "yes" or

19     "no."

20        A.   Well, perhaps that is proof of acting in concert with the

21     authorities.

22        Q.   Because of acting in concert with the authorities, there were no

23     clashes.  Who was more often in Milosevic's prisons, Vuk Draskovic or I?

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please go more

25     slowly, because the interpreters are complaining.

Page 10453

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, I'll repeat the

 2     question.

 3        Q.   Who was in Milosevic's prisons more often, Vuk Draskovic or I?

 4        A.   I think that you were there more often.

 5        Q.   Vuk Draskovic was in prison only twice; right?

 6        A.   I know about this one time.

 7        Q.   He was once in prison after the 9th of March and once in 1992;

 8     right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And never more than a month; right?

11        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.

12        Q.   Whereas I was in Milosevic's prison four times; right?

13        A.   I don't know exactly how many times you were there, but I do know

14     that you were there.

15        Q.   So who's in cahoots with the regime, those who went to prison

16     more often or less often?  When one acts in concert with the regime, is

17     one of the privileges obtained going into prison, then I am in cahoots

18     with NATO, with the European Union, so I have received this privilege of

19     spending six years in The Hague prison.  Is that the logic?

20        A.   Dr. Vojislav Seselj, in relation to one of my responses, you said

21     that I came out with a thesis.  Once again, I'm coming out with a thesis

22     that you acted in collusion with Milosevic and that's why you weren't in

23     prison for a long time and you were not mistreated like Vuk Draskovic

24     was.

25        Q.   All right, very well.  The Serbian Guard of Vuk Draskovic, did it

Page 10454

 1     have among its members the greatest criminals in Serbia?

 2        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 3        Q.   Have you heard of Djordje Bozovic, "Giska," the first commander

 4     of the Serbian Guard?

 5        A.   I heard that he was killed.

 6        Q.   Did you know that he was one of the greatest criminals, he was

 7     greater than Arkan?

 8        A.   I am not aware of that.

 9        Q.   Did you know that his deputy was Branislav Matic, "Beli," also

10     one of the greatest criminals?

11        A.   I'm not aware of that either.

12        Q.   Do you know that a commander of Komite units was Brkic, known as

13     "Robija"?

14        A.   I'm not aware of that.

15        Q.   Do you know that in a gangster showdown in Belgrade, Beli was

16     killed, following which, under suspicious circumstances near Gospic

17     Giska, lost his life as well?

18        A.   As for Djordje Bozovic, "Giska," I did hear that he was killed in

19     Croatia.  As for the other one, I don't know.  Maybe I read it somewhere

20     I simply don't remember.

21        Q.   The Serbian Guard, did they wear publicly a certain type of

22     uniform?

23        A.   I'm not aware of them wearing publicly a uniform.

24        Q.   You have never seen that?

25        A.   I saw on television some footage of the Serbian Guard and nothing

Page 10455

 1     else.

 2        Q.   Did they have cockades on their headgear, traditional cockades?

 3        A.   A cockade is a symbol from the Second World War, the symbol of

 4     the Chetnik Movement led by Draza Mihajlovic.

 5        Q.   Was that worn by members of the Serbian Guard?

 6        A.   Yes, they did.  I, myself, wore it on one occasion.

 7        Q.   You mean the Chetnik cockade?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So you, yourself, renewed Chetnik traditions of Draza Mihajlovic

10     which you criticised me for?

11        A.   No, sir.  You are wrong about that.

12        Q.   I'm wrong; all right.  Based on appearance, on physical

13     appearance, such as beards, cockades, camouflage uniforms and so on, can

14     one distinguish between a member of the Serbian Guard of Vuk Draskovic

15     and a volunteer of the Serb Radical Party?  If you don't know the person,

16     if you just see two soldiers in a uniform with hats and cockades, would

17     you be able to say which one is a member of the Serbian Guard of

18     Vuk Draskovic and which one is a member of the SRS?

19        A.   I don't think that's possible.

20        Q.   All right.  So it's not possible to distinguish.  Now, in order

21     to prove that, let us look at three photographs.  I have originals here.

22             Would the usher please be so kind.  Number 1, 2 and 3, would you

23     put them in that order, please.

24             I have three photographs taken at the funeral of the deputy

25     commander of the Serbian Guard, Beli, Branislav Matic, "Beli."  I think

Page 10456

 1     that it was in the summertime.  Do you see Vuk Draskovic carrying the

 2     coffin of his commander?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You see in front of him a uniformed member of the Serbian Guard.

 5     You only see it partially?

 6        A.   Which one do you mean?

 7        Q.   Well, the person on the right in uniform.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] The second photograph, please.

10        Q.   Now we see Draskovic got tired, he moved to the side.  Other

11     people are carrying the coffin.  Now you see two persons here wearing

12     camouflage uniforms?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   One of them has a beard, which is a typical Chetnik beard, as

15     I can see.  Correct?

16        A.   Well, typical?  Every beard is typical.

17        Q.   Do you see that on their caps, they have cockades?  Do you see

18     that?

19             Don't move it away, because I need to see it too.

20        A.   I can't distinguish the symbol.

21        Q.   All right.  Now, the third photograph published in the papers,

22     please put the third photograph marked as number 3.  Yeah.  Now, here you

23     see these two men here, and you can see clearly that these are Chetnik

24     cockades?

25        A.   Yes, it's clear.

Page 10457

 1        Q.   Do you see that they're not quite identical?  Do you see that?

 2        A.   Yes, there is a difference there.

 3        Q.   Which means that depending on who manufactured them, they looked

 4     differently, there was a difference?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you remember that these cockades were sold on the streets of

 7     Belgrade en masse?

 8        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Now we're done with this set of photographs.  You can

10     give the original photographs to the Prosecutor as gifts, with my

11     compliment.

12             Can we, based on that, confirm that the Serbian Renewal Movement,

13     as a markedly nationalist party, was involved --

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second, Mr. Seselj.

15     Would you like to tender these photographs or not?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I don't need these photographs

17     at all.  Give it to the Prosecutor.  He'll need them.  Now the problem is

18     the Prosecutor doesn't want those photographs.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then throw them in the trash can.

20     I'm not interested in them.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Registrar will

22     keep them.  There's no number, but Mr. Registrar will keep them anyway.

23             Please continue.

24             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation].

25        Q.   Therefore, as a markedly nationalist party, the Serbian Renewal

Page 10458

 1     Movement was opposed to the Milosevic regime, but initially they tried to

 2     help the Serbs who were threatened in Serbian Krajina and in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Trial Chamber

 5     must ensure that your rights be protected and that you are not prejudiced

 6     in the defence of the accused, being yourself.  In that spirit, you know

 7     that the Prosecution has filed a motion so that a lawyer be assigned to

 8     you.  If a lawyer had been appointed and had asked for the three

 9     photographs to be examined, he would have asked for the photographs to be

10     tendered.  Why?

11             Well, because on those photographs, we can see cockades.  It is

12     very interesting, and I hadn't noticed up to now, the cockades are

13     different.  There are Chetnik cockades, but we can see that they're

14     different.  One may conclude from this that at the time those wearing

15     hats, cockades, camouflage uniforms, didn't follow any specific

16     guidelines, that they all were doing what they wanted to.

17             From what you've said to us up to now about the people who were

18     wearing cockades, we understand that there might have been some

19     confusion.  You've just highlighted the fact that somebody belonging to

20     the Guard of Vuk Draskovic may have been mixed up with a Chetnik or a

21     member of the Serbian Radical Party.

22             I've asked you if you want to tender these photographs into

23     evidence, and you've said, "No, let's just throw them away."  This is

24     your position, but I'm sure a lawyer would have had another position.

25             Now, you carry out your Defence the way you want to, but I wanted

Page 10459

 1     this to be recorded in the transcript.  I wanted the transcript to show

 2     that sometimes, even when all the conditions are met for a specific

 3     exhibit to be admitted, you are not asking for a document to be admitted

 4     into evidence.  But, of course, in theory you have the right not to ask

 5     anything.

 6             Please continue.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no need to

 8     ask for that, because these are notorious facts.  Notorious facts, in

 9     law, do not need to be proven.  Unfortunately, the Prosecutor, on several

10     occasions when --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I agree, I agree, you saying

12     they are notorious facts, but for the Judges, who did not live in Serbia,

13     who were not there at the time, it is not notorious.  I didn't know that

14     there may have been different cockades, different camouflage uniforms,

15     beards.  For me, it is not a notorious fact, and for these facts to be

16     notorious and for the Judges to indicate in their judgement, if

17     necessary, that there may have been some confusion, that somebody was

18     wearing a particular cockade, that this could have led to the conclusion

19     that he was a member of another movement or another party, what seems

20     obvious for you may not be obvious for Judges who discover, as we go

21     along, that kind of thing.  This is the first time that I see two

22     different cockades in one single document, worn by two different persons

23     with very descriptive pictures.  That's all I was trying to say.

24             It is up to you, of course.  You're in charge of your own

25     defence, but I could not not make you aware of this.

Page 10460

 1             A moment ago, I also noted the fact that a document may be

 2     interesting in the interests of truth, and that was the prosecutor's

 3     report.  I raised this in issue when I mentioned that report.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, I also wanted just to add to what

 5     you've just said about notorious facts that there's a difference between

 6     notorious facts not having to be proven and such facts being admitted

 7     into evidence.  So even if notorious facts need not further proof, then

 8     you still need to consider whether you want them admitted into evidence.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm the one who is

10     the ultimate decision-maker on my defence case, I'm the one who decides

11     how it needs to be conducted.  Since this is the first witness who, at

12     the relevant time, was a member of the Serbian Renewal Movement -- maybe

13     there were others, I don't know about them -- he was simply suitable for

14     me to establish these facts.  You can draw whatever conclusions you want

15     about this.  Please do not threaten me with imposing counsel on me,

16     because you know that that's a dead-end street.  That would mean the end

17     of the trial, at least trial with my presence.  You can try me in

18     absentia, you can do whatever you want.  Simply do not threaten me

19     anymore.  I'm not interested in what your trial would be.  You can even

20     try me posthumously.  I do not care.

21             Please let me carry on my cross-examination.

22        Q.   Mr. Ejic, now that we've established these matters -- I can't

23     remember now what the last question was.  Well, I've just remembered it.

24     So you agree that the Serbian Renewal Movement, despite the fact that it

25     was opposed to the Milosevic regime in the first years of war, tried to

Page 10461

 1     aid Serbs living in the western parts, in Serbian Krajina, in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, before Republika Srpska was established and after it

 3     was established; am I right?

 4        A.   Your question is not quite clear to me, but I don't think that

 5     you are right.

 6        Q.   So you're saying that the Serbian Renewal Movement did not try to

 7     help the Serbs who were endangered there?

 8        A.   You have to be more precise.  By what means?

 9        Q.   By sending volunteers, by military means.  Vuk Draskovic used to

10     publicly state that there was 60.000 volunteers within the Serbian Guard.

11     Is that right?

12        A.   I don't know whether that figure is correct, but the Serbian

13     Renewal Movement, as a party, led by Vuk Draskovic, did not organise

14     this.  Vuk Draskovic never did that, nor did he approve that people

15     should be sent on behalf of the party; only that they should go on their

16     own initiative.  This is how it came that volunteers went to the front

17     under the name of the Serbian Guard, not under the name of the Serbian

18     Renewal Movement.

19        Q.   Is it true that in 1991, members of the Serbian Renewal Movement

20     for days demanded, on the floor of the National Assembly, that the

21     Serbian Guard ought to be declared as the Serbian National Army?

22        A.   It is true that the Serbian Renewal Movement advocated that the

23     Serbian Guard should be established and that as an official army, it

24     should be sent to the front to protect Serbs; not individually but as

25     part of state institutions.

Page 10462

 1        Q.   And who established the Serbian Guard?

 2        A.   It was established by people who wished so, but they were members

 3     of the Serbian Renewal Movement.

 4        Q.   So the Serbian Renewal Movement has nothing to do with the

 5     establishment of the Serbian Guard?

 6        A.   What I'm trying to say is that this work that you claim that the

 7     Serbian Renewal Movement and Vuk Draskovic did is not true.

 8        Q.   What is not true?

 9        A.   That the problems are being resolved by military means outside of

10     official institutions and outside of the state attempts.

11        Q.   Well, who sent Serbian Guard to Herzegovina, to Krajina, to

12     Cetina, Konjic, Foca, all the places where the Serbian Guard was?  Who

13     sent them there?

14        A.   It was self-initiative of individual members of the Serbian

15     Renewal Movement, of which I was a member.  It wasn't a decision taken at

16     the level of the party.

17        Q.   Were you a member of the Serbian Guard?

18        A.   Yes, I was.

19        Q.   Where did you go to the front?

20        A.   In Bosnia.

21        Q.   Where?

22        A.   Can we please go into closed session?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It can't be a secret, where you

24     went on the frontline, it can't be in the closed session.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, let's move to

Page 10463

 1     private session -- closed session, rather.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10464











11 Pages 10464-10466 redacted. Private session.















Page 10467

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation].

 4        Q.   Mr. Ejic, was a board of the Serb Chetnik Movement ever

 5     established in Hrtkovci?  Have you ever heard of that?

 6        A.   I don't think so.  I've never heard of that.

 7        Q.   It was never established.  You're right, it never was

 8     established, and I know that.  The Serb Radical Party was established --

 9     or, rather, the initiative committee was established only in April of

10     1992; isn't that right?

11        A.   I think that's right.

12        Q.   So throughout 1991, and during the first four months of 1992,

13     there was no Serb Radical Party in Hrtkovci at all; am I not right?

14        A.   You're right.

15        Q.   When did the first refugees from Croatia start arriving in

16     Hrtkovci?

17        A.   I think it was in 1991, the spring of 1992.

18        Q.   Throughout 1991, they kept coming in; right?

19        A.   Well, I can't remember, but they did, yes.

20        Q.   All right.  When the refugees started coming in, certain

21     incidents already started occurring; isn't that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Sporadic incidents, but incidents nevertheless; isn't that right?

24     We cannot say that someone got killed or that someone got beaten up very

25     badly, but there were quarrels, there were threats, and there were

Page 10468

 1     similar incidents; right?

 2        A.   You're right.

 3        Q.   Did anything more serious happen?  Already in 1991, did it happen

 4     that refugees started entering empty Croat houses?

 5        A.   I think that that happened in 1992, the beginning of 1992.

 6        Q.   Usually, these were houses of people who had lived abroad for a

 7     long time with their families.  They worked as guest workers, most often

 8     in Western Europe.

 9        A.   Well, these are houses that were empty at the time and the owners

10     were abroad, and of course during the year they would come and stay there

11     several times.

12        Q.   When the SPO committee was established in Hrtkovci, who was

13     elected its first chairman?

14        A.   The first chairman when the SPO was established, Ostoja Sibincic

15     was the first president.

16        Q.   Ostoja Sibincic.  And you were the secretary of that committee;

17     right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Ostoja Sibincic was president of this committee until when?

20        A.   Well, I cannot remember exactly, but a month or so, a bit more

21     than that.  How can I say?

22        Q.   After that, you were elected president of the municipal

23     committee; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   He resigned because he was too busy; right?

Page 10469

 1        A.   That's not right.  He resigned because he was afraid, when the

 2     parties of Hungarians and Croats in Vojvodina were established, so that

 3     was his explanation for not being president.

 4        Q.   What was he afraid of?  Were these two parties aggressive, the

 5     Croat and the Hungarian ones?

 6        A.   They weren't aggressive, but why he got afraid, he knows that.

 7        Q.   Judging by the number of incidents that he was allegedly involved

 8     in, one does not think that he was a person who was very susceptible to

 9     fear.

10        A.   Well, perhaps that is why.  Perhaps he was afraid of some kind of

11     revenge or something.  That's why he withdrew, maybe.

12        Q.   Did you ever have a physical showdown with a Croat, Mr. Ejic?

13        A.   I cannot recall.

14        Q.   Never in your life?

15        A.   Well, maybe.  Now, did I know that the person was a Croat or not,

16     well, I don't know.

17        Q.   Didn't that even get to a court of law once?  Do you remember

18     that; no?

19        A.   Well, if you jog my memory, perhaps I'll remember.

20        Q.   But without me jogging your memory, you don't remember?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Didn't you beat up a Croat somewhere out in the field, and then

23     he took you to court, and then you apologised in court for that?  He

24     sustained light injuries, and then you were fined, because you did not

25     have a criminal record before that.

Page 10470

 1        A.   If you are referring to the time I worked in Krnjesevci, I

 2     remember that I did have a physical clash with a worker whose superior I

 3     was.  Now, whether he was a Croat, that is something I didn't know at the

 4     moment.  The clash was due to the fact that he assaulted me physically,

 5     and he even used a knife, and I defended myself.  However, our law

 6     stipulates --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I don't understand.

 8     You are asked whether you remember an incident.  When you are tried by a

 9     tribunal, that is something you remember your entire life, even if you

10     are just fined for that, because when you come before a court of law,

11     this is something which makes a lasting impression.

12             I remember you say you don't even remember having being tried by

13     a court of law?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my understanding of

15     the question was that what was meant was a clash in Hrtkovci, whereas

16     this clash took place in Krnjesevci.  That's 50 kilometres away, and

17     that's where I worked, and it was in 1984, 1983.  I can't remember

18     exactly.  It's been a long time.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.

20             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation].

21        Q.   Vladan Zrnic, a Croat, and may I even mention in passing that he

22     even had a Croat for a lawyer, Antun Novacic from Pazor [phoen].  Do you

23     remember Antun Novacic?

24        A.   I don't remember.

25        Q.   You hit him in the head with your fist, and he sustained light

Page 10471

 1     injuries.  He had a swelling that was as big as a large walnut, and also

 2     another swelling on your face that was as big as an eye.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, the accused is reading.  It

 4     is very hard to follow, very fast.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You really beat him up, didn't you?

 7        A.   Well, that's not exactly the case.

 8        Q.   It was ugly, wasn't it?

 9        A.   I just defended myself physically.  At the time, my law -- our

10     law found me guilty because they thought that I was just supposed to turn

11     around and run away.  But he was also held accountable because I accused

12     him of an assault.

13        Q.   How is it that he assaulted you?

14        A.   He grabbed me by the neck, and after I first started defending

15     myself, he took a knife out, and that's when I hit him in order to stop

16     this attack.

17        Q.   Why did you not say in court that he used a knife?

18        A.   Well, how come -- I did say so.

19        Q.   How come it's not contained in the judgement?

20        A.   Well, I don't know.

21        Q.   It says here that unfoundedly, you're saying in your defence,

22     that you were attacked, since the Court heard other evidence and

23     undoubtedly established that he was the attacker, that's you, right, and

24     that you punched him in the face several times, the plaintiff.

25             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to know what --

Page 10472

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara.

 2             MR. FERRARA:  I would like to know what the accused is reading.

 3     I don't have any document here that was disclosed to the Prosecution

 4     before.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, your information

 6     stems from a judgement, I presume, which you have in your possession.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This judgement and the entire case

 8     file, it was actually the Prosecutor's duty to submit this to me, as was

 9     his duty to provide me with the documents related to the criminal trial

10     of Mr. Ejic in Hrtkovci, after which he was allegedly acquitted, and also

11     he was duty-bound to provide me with the case file based on

12     Ostoja Sibincic's accusation of this witness planting a bomb underneath

13     his car.

14             The Prosecutor was supposed to provide me with these documents.

15     Maybe he didn't know about this first thing.  Maybe the witness did not

16     tell him about that during the interview.  I don't know about that,

17     because there is no trace in the documents provided by the Prosecution.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is a judgement, we shall

19     proceed.  You admit that a judgement was handed down, Witness?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not denying that.  That,

21     indeed, was the case.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  The judgement was

23     handed down.

24             Let's proceed.

25             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 10473

 1        Q.   At a meeting of the Serbian Renewal Movement, when

 2     Ostoja Sibincic, at his own request, was relieved of the duty of

 3     president of the local committee, it was agreed that he would lead a

 4     group that would deal with refugees exclusively within your party, also

 5     how they would be put up in houses, and actions directed at population

 6     exchanges, whereas you would continue to be the formal leader of the

 7     Municipal Board of the SPO?

 8        A.   I don't remember that.  I don't think that's the case.

 9        Q.   You don't remember.  All right.  If you don't remember, I'm not

10     going to insist on it very much.

11             Since these incidents were already occurring in Hrtkovci, why, in

12     1991, as president of the local committee of the SPO, did you not speak

13     out in order to ease these tensions and to find a solution?  We have no

14     records of any statements you made in public.

15        A.   My first public statement was after the local committee of the

16     SPO was dissolved.  On the bulletin board in Hrtkovci, I wrote a

17     proclamation.  That was the first time I addressed the public.

18        Q.   Who decided that at the end of 1992, the local committee of the

19     Serb Renewal Movement was supposed to be dissolved?

20        A.   I decided that.

21        Q.   On the basis of what?

22        A.   As I was president.

23        Q.   According to the statute of the SPO, the president of the local

24     committee cannot dissolve the local committee.  It's only a higher organ,

25     the main board in Belgrade, or a higher municipal organ could have

Page 10474

 1     dissolved the local committee.  It's not the president of that same local

 2     committee that can dissolve it.

 3        A.   I informed the president of the municipal committee about this,

 4     and I received his consent orally for doing that.

 5        Q.   Was the local committee of the SPO in Hrtkovci ever renewed after

 6     that?

 7        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 8        Q.   Well, of course you cannot know about that, because it was never

 9     renewed.  It doesn't exist even today.

10        A.   I think that that is the case.

11        Q.   You were instructed from Belgrade to abolish it and to proclaim

12     its dissolution towards the end of 1992, to erase all traces of the

13     participation of your local committee in the mistreatment of the local

14     Croatian population, when many refugees were coming in; isn't that right?

15        A.   That's not right.  That's an invention.

16        Q.   Well, what would be the reason for disbanding the local committee

17     of the SPO, then?  Every political party tries to expand its network of

18     local committees and to attract as many members as possible, whereas all

19     of a sudden out of the blue you abolish your own party in Hrtkovci and it

20     is never to be renewed afterwards.  Why?

21        A.   Because the population felt that the Serb Renewal Movement, since

22     at that time Ostoja Sibincic was a member too, is organising all the bad

23     things that were happening in Hrtkovci, so that was my motive.  I wanted

24     to refute and deny in that way, and that is why it was dissolved.

25        Q.   So the prevalent view in Hrtkovci at the time was that the SPO

Page 10475

 1     organised all these incidents and negative phenomena; right?

 2        A.   At the very beginning, I have already explained that, I explained

 3     what period that was.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, all right.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Seselj.  We

 6     have to have the break now.  I thought we could do away with the break

 7     because we had a short break a while ago, but the Registrar just told me

 8     that this is not possible because of the tapes.

 9             We shall have a break and -- have a 20-minute break, and then we

10     will have three-quarters of an hour left.

11                           --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

14             Mr. Ferrara.

15             MR. FERRARA:  Yes, Your Honour.  Before we continue with the

16     cross-examination of the witness, the OTP found a web site, archives of

17     the "Chicago Tribune" the original of the newspaper of the articles we

18     discussed before.  So I want to tender -- and it is exactly the same as

19     the transcript that the OTP provided before.  The MFI is already admitted

20     with the number P559, so I think we can have an exhibit number now.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,

22     you looked on the web, and on the web site you found the identical

23     document, identical article.  You didn't find another one?

24             MR. FERRARA:  Yes.  It is the official archive of the "Chicago

25     Tribune" on the web site.

Page 10476

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think that there is a

 2     single civilised country in the world where you can just take the word of

 3     the prosecutor.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, when you tell me

 5     something, I trust what you say, and when Mr. Ferrara tells me something,

 6     I trust what he says.  I don't think he's going to lie.  So he went to

 7     check the information to see that the article that we have is the same as

 8     the one he found on the web.  I can't say anything else.  You can ask

 9     your associates, I don't know through what means because you have no

10     contact with them anymore.  You can ask your wife to check this, via

11     Mr. Krasic, that this newspaper has this article.  The Prosecutor is

12     telling me this.  I can't do any more than that.

13             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on three occasions

15     here, I have been forbidden any contact with my wife, be it in person or

16     on the telephone.  Once, it lasted for seven months, once for two months,

17     and then they said that, "Yes, she can come and visit you, but under

18     strict supervision," which is to say that we were strictly supervised at

19     all times.  I can't expose myself to such risks anymore, because my wife

20     will leave me.  And I'm a man of advanced age, and if my wife leaves me,

21     I won't be able to find another one, so I can't take any risks.  So I

22     won't use her to get into contact with anyone else.  And I've been

23     previously accused of that before; falsely, of course.

24             I've had other more important documents that my associates needed

25     to send to me, such as an extensive interview with Ostoja Sibincic, but

Page 10477

 1     unfortunately, since we have no contacts, it hasn't been sent to me.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Ejic, are you aware of the fact that Vuk Draskovic and I

 3     established the SPO together in March of 1990?  I emphasise "1990."

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Up until that time, Vuk Draskovic was a member of the Serbian

 6     National Renewal and I was a member of another party, and then we joined

 7     forces into SPO; you know that, don't you?

 8        A.   I don't know everything, but I know that it was a joint party.

 9        Q.   And then you know that in June of 1990, we had a conflict and we

10     parted?

11        A.   I've heard of that.

12        Q.   Then you must know that for almost one month, there existed, in

13     parallel, two parties of SPO, the one that I led and from which Draskovic

14     was expelled through a majority of votes, and then another one that

15     Draskovic established in Zemun in a restaurant called Roleks and that he

16     also named the Serbian Renewal Movement?

17        A.   I don't know that.

18        Q.   Do you know that this wing of the SPO that I led at one point in

19     time decided to rename itself into the Serbian Chetnik Movement so that

20     there would be no confusion among the public about two parties that have

21     the same name?

22        A.   I don't know that, either.

23        Q.   The Prosecution knows about it.  They have documents about this.

24             Do you know that from June 1990, and then for the following

25     several years up until 1994 or 1995, there used to be great hostility and

Page 10478

 1     enmity between me and Draskovic, in the political sense and in the

 2     personal sense, and also between our two parties, the SRS and the SPO;

 3     isn't this a fact?

 4        A.   I know about that.

 5        Q.   It's a well-known fact that there was this great hostility,

 6     enmity between us?

 7        A.   In the sense of disagreeing with the politics.

 8        Q.   It was to such an extent that we couldn't cooperate on any issue

 9     and we had constant verbal conflicts?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   In the Assembly, in the media, at rallies and so on.  Do you

12     remember this rally in Hrtkovci that I held on the 6th of May, that in

13     relation to your party, which is called the SPO, I called or I labelled

14     them the Serbian Movement of Fraud?

15        A.   I don't remember that.

16        Q.   We can even look at this document disclosed by the Prosecution,

17     which is the transcript of the rally in Hrtkovci.  This is Exhibit 01274.

18             Could we put it on the screen, please.  Is it going to be brought

19     up on the screen?

20             I still haven't got anything.  Please turn to the page marked as

21     405.  405, please, or, rather, 199 are the last digits.  That's right.

22             See here the second paragraph, it says:

23             "Some traitors of the Serbian people in Belgrade, members of the

24     Serbian Movement of Fraud, Democrats, reformers," which is the party of

25     the former Prime Minister Ante Markovic, remember them, and then it says

Page 10479

 1     "The members of the UJDI and various peacemakers, autonomous from

 2     Vojvodina, accuse us of not being democrats, of being fascist.  We fought

 3     for democracy when they had very high ranks in the communist regime."

 4             Do you see that I used here this term "Serbian Movement of

 5     Fraud"?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And when you and Ostoja Sibincic, as local leaders of the Serbian

 8     Renewal Movement, when you heard me call your party the Serbian Movement

 9     of Fraud, you couldn't have felt well.

10        A.   Well, I'm used to such accusations.

11        Q.   So you didn't feel very uncomfortable; right?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   I'm not right?

14        A.   No, no, you're quite right, I didn't feel very uncomfortable.

15        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Ejic, in this rally I said that Tudjman's regime

16     had already expelled from Croatia more than 200.000 Serbs?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you remember that those were official figures coming from the

19     Commisariate for Refugees?

20        A.   I remember the figure reported on the television and the media,

21     it was more than 100.000.

22        Q.   And then in early 1992, the figure was already over 200.000;

23     correct?

24        A.   Possible --

25        Q.   Tell me, please, I think you had occasion to listed to the many

Page 10480

 1     stories of these refugees, about how they had been expelled from Croatia;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes, I had such occasion, also later when I was the president of

 4     the local commune after all of these events, I heard many stories from

 5     the refugees themselves.

 6        Q.   Were there any murders there?  Wasn't the family Zajic from

 7     Zagreb killed, the entire family killed?

 8        A.   I can't remember.

 9        Q.   Were there beatings, assaults?

10        A.   Yes, I remember such statements.  People were saying that they

11     had been physically abused, that grenades had been launched.

12        Q.   Yes.  Grenades, items were blown up?

13        A.   Yes, that there were murders.

14        Q.   And all of that happened before any incident broke out in

15     Vojvodina; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Ejic, have you ever wondered how come The Hague OTP

18     never once -- never, ever accused anyone from the Croatian leadership for

19     this mass expulsion of Serbs in 1990, 1991 and 1992; did you ever wonder

20     about that?  Isn't that a bit strange?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Isn't it strange to you even nowadays?

23        A.   In a way, yes.

24        Q.   Is that one of the main reasons why the Serbian people do not

25     trust The Hague Tribunal at all?

Page 10481

 1        A.   I don't know what Serbian people do you have in mind.  You mean

 2     refugees or the Serbian people in general?

 3        Q.   In general.  In the beginning of your examination-in-chief, you

 4     spoke about how people treated the fact that somebody needed to testify

 5     here in The Hague.  People were quite hostile towards that?

 6        A.   Yes, these newly arrived residents from Croatia and Bosnia.

 7        Q.   Isn't that because people do not trust The Hague Tribunal,

 8     because had it been a normal, serious court, why would people be opposed

 9     to it?

10        A.   I don't know exactly why.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if you don't know, then

12     that's fine.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's a word that I can't let

14     pass, "a serious tribunal."  Witness, you've been here for two days.  Do

15     you believe that the Bench does not scrutinize, as it should, everything

16     you say and all the documents that are shown?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is my impression

18     that this is a serious court and that you scrutinize everything

19     seriously.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was referring to

21     the Tribunal in general, and I have to confess to you right now that

22     there is a danger that you will become more popular than me in Serbia,

23     because you have exhibited a high level of tolerance in these

24     proceedings.  Now, when I spoke just now, I spoke about the Tribunal in

25     general.

Page 10482

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I don't understand the relevance

 2     of that.  What I mean is relevance in terms of your cross-examination and

 3     Defence case.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

 5     examination-in-chief by putting questions about what had happened to the

 6     witness in his hometown, where he lives and works, when it became known

 7     that he might testify in this case.  This is why it is relevant.  And

 8     then the witness stated here that there were no threats, but there were

 9     some provocative questions to the effect of, "Are you going to testify,

10     are you not going to testify, are you paid money for that or not?"  This

11     is what came out in examination-in-chief.  I can't be blamed for that.  I

12     simply followed up on that, and my main objection did not pertain to this

13     particular Chamber but rather to the Tribunal in general, bearing in mind

14     acquittals of certain prominent Muslims, Albanians and so on, without

15     mentioning any names.

16             Very well, I'm not going to dwell on this any longer.  I see that

17     you feel uncomfortable.

18             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I still feel -- well, I

19     understand that you always want to have the last word.  The issue doesn't

20     relate to the fact whether this Tribunal is relevant or not.  The

21     questions that were raised or put to the witness at the beginning of the

22     examination-in-chief, which questions you are referring to, are quite

23     another story altogether.  You are putting questions now on the Tribunal,

24     whether this Tribunal is a serious tribunal or not.  This is not at all

25     relevant.

Page 10483

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I shall continue.

 3        Q.   Do you remember that in late May 1992, elections were scheduled,

 4     the federal ones for the Federal Parliament, and local ones for municipal

 5     assemblies in Serbia?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You know that the SRS decided to take part in elections?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you remember that pro-Western opposition parties decided to

10     boycott these elections, such as SPO, Democratic Party, and so on?

11        A.   I remember that there were such proposals.

12        Q.   Do you remember that both before and after the rally in Hrtkovci,

13     we, the Radicals, continuously held rallies in various towns in Serbia,

14     sometimes three or four in the same day?  There were brief reports on

15     television on a nightly basis?

16        A.   Yes, I remember that from television.

17        Q.   Isn't it clear, based on everything, including the nature of my

18     speech and the circumstances of this pre-election campaign, that the

19     rally in Hrtkovci was first and foremost an election or pre-election

20     rally?

21        A.   That's how it was billed.

22        Q.   You know that the meeting was held on St. George's Day, the 6th

23     of May?

24        A.   Yes, I know that.

25        Q.   Isn't that the patron saint of numerous Serbs of Orthodox faith?

Page 10484

 1        A.   I don't know that it's the patron saint day of numerous Serbs,

 2     but it is a well-known day among Serbs.

 3        Q.   That it would not be opportune, politically speaking, to schedule

 4     a rally on that day in a large city, when everybody is busy either

 5     celebrating their patron saint day or going to the house of those who

 6     celebrate?

 7        A.   Well, I don't know.

 8        Q.   At what time of the day was the rally in Hrtkovci scheduled; do

 9     you remember?

10        A.   It was held in the afternoon hours.

11        Q.   It was at around 2.00 p.m.; right?

12        A.   Around that time.

13        Q.   And in that rally, we gathered our supporters and members from

14     Hrtkovci, Platicevo, Nikinci, Simanovci, Karlovcici, Kupinovo.  Are there

15     any other villages in the vicinity?  And also Ruma; correct?

16        A.   Yes, it's true that people came from elsewhere.  I recognised

17     some people from Ruma.

18        Q.   But all of those people from elsewhere were actually people from

19     the vicinity; right?

20        A.   I don't know.

21        Q.   There was no time to go to each individual town.  We would simply

22     pick one town and then draw people from the vicinity.

23        A.   I don't know.  I just told you that I recognised some people from

24     Ruma.

25        Q.   Isn't it clear that we scheduled that rally in order to use that

Page 10485

 1     6th of May because there were only 20 days remaining to the elections,

 2     and we knew that on that important holiday, there was no point in holding

 3     a huge rally because people wouldn't be able to come?  That evening, I

 4     had to go to the house of my brother-in-law, Svetozar Poljak and my best

 5     friend's house because they were celebrating the patron saint's day, so I

 6     had to go to these two houses, and the same is true as many of my

 7     associates.  Isn't this customary in Serbia?

 8        A.   Can you put a clear question to me, you've said so many things?

 9        Q.   I insist on the importance of this date, the 6th of May, which is

10     a big Orthodox Serb holiday, St. George's Day.  On that day, practically

11     every Serb of the Orthodox faith either celebrates that day himself or at

12     least he goes to see a friend or a relative whose patron saint's day that

13     is.  Am I not right?

14        A.   Yes, you are right.

15        Q.   That's the only thing I wanted to hear from you, that's all.  You

16     know when political gatherings are organised, every political party has

17     to report to the police at least 48 hours in advance that a gathering of

18     this kind will be organised; do you know that?

19        A.   Yes, I know that.

20        Q.   It's the police in Ruma that was in charge for this gathering;

21     right?

22        A.   Yes, that's right.

23        Q.   So what would be more natural than this, then?  If the Serbian

24     Radical Party had properly announced that they would have this rally held

25     and if there is an increased risk, that the police should send a large

Page 10486

 1     group of policemen there, why would one be surprised over the fact that a

 2     large group of policemen were there?  Am I right?

 3        A.   No, you are not right.

 4        Q.   Why not?

 5        A.   Because at other rallies, I did not notice the kind of security

 6     that was there in Hrtkovci on that day.

 7        Q.   And what are these rallies where you did not notice any such

 8     thing?

 9        A.   In Ruma, Indija, and when I watched rallies on television.

10        Q.   Do you know how much security there was when I held the rally in

11     Novi Pazar?  There was a police battalion there.

12        A.   I don't know about that.

13        Q.   So every time the police assesses the circumstances involved, and

14     then they decide how many people are to be sent to provide security at a

15     political gathering or a public gathering in order to avoid any

16     incidents; is that right?

17        A.   Well, that's the way it's supposed to be.

18        Q.   You said here that an hour or two before the rally, that a group

19     of uniformed men, in black uniform, arrived on a bus and that they walked

20     through Hrtkovci with weapons in their hands; right?

21        A.   I stated that I saw a group of three of them, or two groups of

22     three, so that's six altogether, and then there was this other one by way

23     of an escort, and they walked down the main street before you arrived.

24        Q.   Do you know who they are?

25        A.   I didn't know.

Page 10487

 1        Q.   Were they armed?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   How come the police didn't react if they were armed?

 4        A.   That's what I wondered about then, and that's what I wonder to

 5     this day.

 6        Q.   What kind of black uniforms did they wear, then?

 7        A.   Well, they were reminiscent of the uniforms worn in the Second

 8     World War by the Chetniks.

 9        Q.   I assume -- what?  What is this?  When did the Chetniks have

10     black uniforms in the Second World War?

11        A.   Well, when the uprising started, under the leadership of

12     General Draza Mihajlovic.

13        Q.   Well, did they have uniforms of the Royal Yugoslav Army, not

14     black ones?  Have you confused the Chetniks with the Ustashas?  Why,

15     then, if Draskovic is a follower of the ideology of the Chetnik Movement,

16     why did Draskovic not prescribe black uniforms for the Serb Guard?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   You do know the name of Slavko Kolundzic; right?

19        A.   Yes, I know that name.

20        Q.   He was the member of the State Security at that time; do you know

21     that?

22        A.   That's the information that I had from him and from others.

23        Q.   My associates conducted a lengthy interview with

24     Slavko Kolundzic, and it was published in my book whose title I'm not

25     going to refer to here because the Trial Chamber's going to interrupt me

Page 10488

 1     straight away, they are going to redact the transcript, they are going to

 2     move into closed session, so I'm not going to mention the name of the

 3     book, but it's about the Hrtkovci affair, and 23 pages of the book

 4     account for the interview that my associates conducted with Slavko

 5     Kolundzic.  And he claims that no groups of armed men appeared before,

 6     during, or after the rally.  Do you think that he has some reason to say

 7     something that is not true?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   I sent this book to the OTP about ten days ago, and I believe

10     that they have it from before as well, so I have met my obligations.

11             Slavko Kolundzic claims that a group of armed men did appear --

12     or, rather, had a group of armed men appeared, the authorities would have

13     reacted.  Is he right when he says that?

14        A.   Well, he's right if he's stating that, but I don't know what is

15     meant, specifically.

16        Q.   These men who arrived in black uniforms, as you say, three of

17     them and then another three, and there is some Prosecution witnesses who

18     claim that there was a busload of them, did they attend the meeting at

19     all?  Did they attend the rally?  Did you see them when the rally

20     started?

21        A.   I can't remember seeing them during the rally itself.

22        Q.   I stood on the stage, and I didn't see them anywhere.  Can you

23     believe me?

24        A.   If I didn't see them, well, then I believe you too.

25        Q.   You remember this well during the direct examination, that I

Page 10489

 1     arrived in Hrtkovci with three cars?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Three cars would be a maximum of twelve people; right?

 4        A.   Well, perhaps even 15.

 5        Q.   Well, 15 if they are small.  But if they are as big as I am, not

 6     more than 12.  So in three cars, three drivers, and I'm the fourth one,

 7     and then there could have been another eight people; right?  Among these

 8     eight, did you see anyone with a knife at the belt?

 9        A.   I saw a young man who said that he was your security detail, and

10     he had a knife at the belt and he stood by the stage.

11        Q.   He stood with a knife by the stage?  Do you know what kind of a

12     scandal that would be in Serbia, if somebody was providing security at a

13     rally with a knife at his belt?  Did it ever happen at any rally of any

14     political party, that someone would come to attend a rally with a knife

15     at the belt?

16        A.   When I said that, I didn't mean it the way you're explaining it

17     now.  It was in a scabbard, like a military knife.

18        Q.   A bayonet?

19        A.   Yes, that's what I meant.

20        Q.   Well, he doesn't have a rifle in his hands, so why would he need

21     that?

22        A.   I don't know.

23        Q.   Do you know that according to our laws, it is prohibited to have

24     any kind of -- to carry any kind of cold weapon at -- in public?

25        A.   Well, that's why I was surprised that they were on the street.

Page 10490

 1        Q.   Allegedly, they passed through the street before the rally, not

 2     at the meeting.

 3        A.   Well, that's what I said, that they were passing there before the

 4     rally.

 5        Q.   Do you know who Slavko Mirazic is?

 6        A.   Slavko Mirazic?

 7        Q.   Slavko Mirazic, then.

 8        A.   Yes, I know.  He's a man who lives on my street.

 9        Q.   Was he a member of the SPO in 1992?

10        A.   Yes, he was.

11        Q.   A witness over here who had the code VS-01136, is that a

12     protected witness?  Could the Prosecutor help me on this?  Maybe I could

13     mention the name.  In his book, he says that Slavko Mirazic, a member of

14     the Serb Renewal Movement, publicly advocated the ethnic cleansing of

15     Serbs [as interpreted].  Is that true, did you hear him advocating that?

16        A.   No, I didn't hear of that, and I don't think that would be true.

17        Q.   That's what this witness says.  1136 is the code for this

18     witness.  Is this a protected witness, Prosecutor?  I'm not allowed to

19     say the name.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If this is 1136, it's

21     protected, he's protected.  What is important is that it was indicated

22     that Slavko Mirazic was talking about ethnic cleansing, but --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Advocated it, and this witness

24     confirmed that he's a member of the Serb Radical Movement -- of the SPO

25     at the time.  That's what matters to me.

Page 10491

 1        Q.   You heard the entire rally, you heard all the speeches; right?

 2        A.   I was present, but I did not pay that much attention to all the

 3     speeches.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to go back a little

 5     bit, because I'm checking everything that the Prosecutor's written and

 6     I'm trying to assess whether what was written is right or not.

 7             In paragraph 127, the Prosecutor says you don't have that text,

 8     but, trust me, two hours before the speech delivered by Vojislav Seselj,

 9     SRS/SPC volunteers arrived on buses.  They were wearing black uniforms

10     and they had rifles, and they deployed at the very place where the

11     meeting or the rally took place.  To your knowledge, did buses arrive?

12     Did you see buses arrive with a lot of people on board those buses, i.e.,

13     volunteers?  That's what the Prosecutor writes.  Is that true or not, to

14     your knowledge?

15        A.   I do not have any knowledge about that, and I did not see that

16     either.  What I did see was that a group walked through the main street.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The prosecutor then writes:

18             "In front of several thousands," several thousands in the plural

19     people, among which there were volunteers.

20             I thought you said "we were 300 at most."  We examined a document

21     in which the number of 700 was mentioned.  The prosecutor speaks here of

22     several thousand people, so were you still 300?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My impression and my first

24     recollection was that that was at roughly about 300, and now in the

25     smaller streets, on the basis of what Kolundzic said also, perhaps there

Page 10492

 1     were more, but I really don't know.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A witness allegedly said to the

 3     Office of the Prosecution that, and this is what it says here, that

 4     before that speech, the SRS had prepared the stage and, throughout the

 5     day, had broadcast Chetnik partisan music.  My question is, therefore:

 6     Before the speech was delivered, was music heard?  And if so, who

 7     broadcast that music?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember.  Music was

 9     played, but not the entire day.  Well, perhaps, but I was not present

10     there.  I arrived at the moment when the rally was actually being held

11     or, rather, an hour earlier, what I saw.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps this is an

13     interpretation mistake, but the interpreter said to me "Chetnik partisan

14     music."  That is truly impossible.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, there was a mistake.  The

16     prosecutor says that music was played throughout the day and it was

17     Chetnik partisan music.  That's what's written.

18             So there was music, that's what you're saying, but who was

19     playing the music?  Don't you know?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, very well.

22             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation].

23        Q.   Mr. Ejic, is it perfectly customary at all political party

24     rallies, when the stage is put up at least an hour before the rally

25     starts, isn't it customary to play music?

Page 10493

 1        A.   Yes, that's customary.

 2        Q.   Why would it be strange if our initiative committee, the

 3     activists of the Serb Radical Party, would play our party's songs,

 4     Chetnik songs and things like that?

 5        A.   I didn't find that strange.

 6        Q.   It's quite natural, isn't it?  Did you listen to my speech

 7     carefully at the rally?

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait.  Of course, there was

 9     music.  It might be quite natural.  But the prosecutor uses the term

10     "partisan," which gives the impression that some particular pieces of

11     music were selected with a particular connotation; hence the use of the

12     term "partisan."  That's what I'm trying to understand with you.

13             Do you remember, don't you remember?  Maybe there were

14     nationalist songs.  Are there notorious pieces that are played every

15     time, and were they heard that particular day, or don't you know?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is customary is, as far as I

17     know, that at rallies of my political party, songs were played beforehand

18     and then the anthem, when the rally would actually start, and Chetnik

19     songs too.  I'm not aware of partisan songs.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the Serbian

21     version it says that the SRS, at the place where the rally was held,

22     prepared a stage and played Chetnik music with nationalist overtones.

23     Yes, nationalist overtones.  We are a nationalist political party.  We're

24     proud of that.  But it's hard for you to find any Chetnik songs that asks

25     people to kill other people and things like that.  Our songs are songs

Page 10494

 1     that love freedom and are in favour of freedom.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Proceed.  We still

 3     have ten minutes.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation].

 5        Q.   Mr. Ejic, did you listen to my speech carefully?

 6        A.   I didn't listen carefully, and I cannot remember all the details.

 7     I mean, some I did.

 8        Q.   Is it possible that, inter alia, in that speech I said that all

 9     mixed marriages should be divorced?  Of course, mixed marriages between

10     Serbs and Croats.

11        A.   I didn't hear of that.

12        Q.   Over here, this same witness, 1136 was his code name, claimed

13     that I said that.  Did you hear that at this rally I said that mixed

14     marriages should be annulled and children from these marriages should be

15     killed?

16        A.   I didn't hear that either.

17        Q.   Well, that's what a Prosecution witness said here, too, one who

18     is yet to come.  Is it possible for someone to utter something like that

19     at a rally and then to suffer no consequences for that, to have children

20     of mixed marriages killed?

21        A.   I think that that is impossible, and it is not customary to say

22     things like that.

23        Q.   Did anyone ever state anything like that in public in Serbia at a

24     public gathering?

25        A.   I did not hear of any such thing.

Page 10495

 1        Q.   Had something like that been said, you would have had to have

 2     heard about it, it couldn't have been hidden.

 3        A.   Well, I don't know.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to

 5     insist, because it is important.  In the indictment and the pre-trial

 6     brief, let me quote here because, you know, Judges check everything that

 7     everybody says, and this is my job to do so, this is what's written:

 8             "He added --" "Mr. Seselj added that mixed marriages between

 9     Serbs and Croats needed to be cleansed and that the children of those

10     marriages should be killed."

11             And in the pre-trial brief, there's a footnote, footnote 441,

12     which refers to the testimonies of two witnesses.  You were there.  You

13     told us that you didn't hear the speech because that's not what you were

14     interested in.  But if somebody says that children have to be killed,

15     this is of course a very strong statement, something that you must

16     remember, so was it said or not?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't hear that.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The problem here is that nobody

20     from the Prosecution would even blush because of the things that are

21     written either in the indictment or in the pre-trial brief, and somebody

22     should blush for that.  The Prosecution brings here witnesses who deny

23     the content of the indictment and the pre-trial brief.  This is the 41st

24     witness denying the indictment.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, yesterday we studied,

Page 10496

 1     and by "studied" I mean it, because we had a very close look at the whole

 2     speech, we studied the speech, and I couldn't see a sentence indicating

 3     that children should be killed.  I didn't see such sentence.  You had a

 4     look at the speech, like we did yesterday.  Did you see that sentence

 5     anywhere?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well --

 8             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation].

 9        Q.   In that rally held by the SRS, were there any incidents that

10     erupted?

11        A.   I don't remember.  I don't think that there were.

12        Q.   There were Serbs present there, Serbs from Hrtkovci, then Serb

13     refugees, Serbs from surrounding villages, Croats from Hrtkovci, and

14     Hungarians from Hrtkovci; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And there were absolutely no incidents either among the public or

17     participants of the rally and other citizens?

18        A.   I'm not aware of that.

19        Q.   The rally ended peacefully, calmly, and after the rally we got

20     into our cars and went back to Belgrade; right?

21        A.   I don't know where you went, but it terminated without any

22     incidents.

23        Q.   The stage was taken apart, the music was turned off, the trash

24     was cleaned; right?  If somebody ate seeds, pumpkin seeds or something

25     like that, all of that was discarded; right?

Page 10497

 1        A.   I don't know.  I left immediately, and I don't know what happened

 2     afterwards.

 3        Q.   Following that, the initiative committee of the Serbian Radical

 4     Party grew into the local board of the Serbian Radical Party for

 5     Hrtkovci; right?

 6        A.   I think that, roughly, that's how it was.

 7        Q.   Do you know when it was that somebody of the Serbian Radical

 8     Party for the first time became a member of the local board from

 9     Hrtkovci, and did anyone, for that matter, become a member by 1995?

10        A.   By 1995?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to have to stop you,

13     because we're going to have to adjourn at 1.45 sharp.

14             I'd like to ask a very short question, three seconds only,

15     because apparently Mr. Seselj is not going to talk about the rest of the

16     speech.  But I am forced to ask the following question:  Still in the

17     pre-trial brief from the Prosecution, and this is a very important

18     matter, it says the following.  He quoted the names of Serbs,

19     personalities who were to leave Hrtkovci, your own village, so did

20     Mr. Seselj say that X, Y, and Z had to leave the village, because that's

21     exactly what is written here?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj did not mention names.

23     The first speaker did so.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't catch the name.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well --

Page 10498

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It would be important to hear a

 2     brief answer to this question.

 3        Q.   By 1995, was there any member of the Radical Party in the local

 4     commune council?  According to my knowledge, there weren't, but I wanted

 5     to hear the witness.

 6        A.   I don't think that there were.  I don't remember whether they

 7     were members of the Radical Party or not, but those who were members of

 8     the council after Ostoja Sibincic came to power, and he became a member

 9     afterwards.

10        Q.   But after 1995?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj -- a brief answer

12     from the witness, maybe.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of that.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15             Mr. Seselj, you have used up one hour and twenty-five minutes.

16     Tomorrow, you will have one hour and fifty-five minutes.  We shall resume

17     the hearing at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

18             Very briefly, Mr. Ferrara, quickly, please.

19             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honour, very briefly.  The document, the press

20     article, we don't have yet an exhibit number.  We have only the MFI

21     number.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will meet

23     later.  We will discuss and see if an exhibit number will be given or

24     not.  Should we forgot, because we have a lot of issues to cover, please

25     remind us tomorrow morning when we resume the hearing.  But we'll give

Page 10499

 1     you our answer straight away tomorrow morning.

 2             Thank you very much.  We'll meet again tomorrow at 9.00.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of

 5                           October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.