1 Tuesday, 14 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please
6 call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours.
8 This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Vojislav Seselj.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
11 This is Tuesday, October 14th, 2008, and I welcome the
12 representatives of the OTP as well as those helping us. I welcome
13 Mr. Seselj and everyone helping us in this courtroom.
14 Today, we will have a witness scheduled to come in the courtroom
15 soon. Let me remind you that the Prosecution has set aside two hours for
16 examination-in-chief, unless I'm mistaken. Defence will therefore be
17 granted two hours for the cross-examination.
18 On the last day of the week, we will have a 92 ter witness, so
19 we'll have a witness under Rule 92 ter.
20 Mr. Seselj, I believe that you have a few things to say, so you
21 have the floor quickly.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Two things, very briefly.
23 First of all, the OTP, through the prison guards, tried on Friday
24 and on Monday to deliver the very same documents to me on CD-ROM, which I
25 categorically refused. I noticed in passing that the documents have to
1 do with the expert report of Ewa Tabeau, but I don't know what the
2 contents are. They did that in spite of your ruling that all documents
3 be submitted to me on paper.
4 Secondly, you probably remember that a few times I demanded that
5 Witness VS-1031 testifies viva voce rather than as a 92 ter witness.
6 Yesterday, I received from the OTP yet another request to have this
7 witness testify as a 92 ter witness. The date is the 25th of September;
8 of the request, that is, and it was delivered to me only yesterday. This
9 time, I can just respond straight away orally to this request in order to
10 speed up the proceedings, because the witness is supposed to come in
11 about 15 days or so, that the witness can testify as a 92 ter witness in
12 view of the command position he had at the time. It would truly be
13 ludicrous if this witness were to come as a 92 ter witness. So if you
14 look at what his statement has to do with, all of it will be clear to
16 Not to dwell on it any longer. I think that you had a look at it
17 yourselves and have seen for yourselves.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will look into
20 Very quickly now, for Ewa Tabeau, this question of the CD-ROMs,
21 can you tell us what this is all about, Ms. Dahl?
22 MS. DAHL: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I'm not able to answer your
23 question at the moment. I'll need to find out what was disclosed.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's bring the
25 witness into the courtroom, then, and we will ask him to take the solemn
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. Could you
4 please give us your name, surname, and date of birth.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am Franja Baricevic, born on the
6 3rd of June, 1953, in Hrtkovci.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your job at the moment?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a mechanic.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you ever testified in
10 front of a national or international court regarding what happened in
11 former Yugoslavia
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my first time.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may read the
15 declaration that is in front of you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just need to get my glasses.
17 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
18 and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: FRANJO BARICEVIC
20 [The witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me give you a few details
24 regarding the way this hearing is going to happen.
25 This is the first time you're testifying in court, and it is
1 usually something that is quite striking for anyone. My mission first is
2 to reassure you and to tell you exactly what is going to happen.
3 You will be asked questions by the representative of the OTP, and
4 you have to answer these questions. I'm sure that you have met this
5 person either this morning or yesterday in order to prepare for this
6 hearing. The Prosecutor may also present a few documents to you.
7 After this phase, Mr. Seselj, who is on your left, and I'm sure
8 you know who it is, will be putting questions to you, and this will be
9 the cross-examination. He will be entitled to put questions to you.
10 Most of these questions are aimed at testing your credibility and also at
11 addressing issues of substance that were dealt with during the
13 The three Judges on the Bench in front of you can also take the
14 floor at any moment if they need some details on subjects that are not
15 clear enough.
16 Please try to be very specific in your answers. If at one point
17 in time you do not understand the question, just ask the person putting
18 the question to you to rephrase it. Even if it's a Judge, don't hesitate
19 to ask the Judge to reformulate the question. You cannot answer a
20 question correctly if you have not understood it perfectly.
21 We will have 20-minute breaks every hour and a half, so which
22 means that we'll soon have a break in about an hour or so.
23 You have made a solemn declaration, so you're now the witness of
24 justice. You will no longer be in contact with the OTP.
25 If we're able to finish this hearing today, so much the better.
1 If not, we will continue tomorrow, which means that you will have to come
2 in this courtroom again tomorrow afternoon, but you're not supposed to
3 have any contact with the OTP in the meanwhile.
4 The Trial Chamber, of course, can answer any questions you may
5 wish, if need be.
6 I wanted to say all this to make sure that this hearing would run
7 as smoothly as possible.
8 Good afternoon, Mr. Prosecutor, and you have the floor.
9 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.
10 I have two issues to raise before I start the
12 Please allow me to introduce Mr. Christian Simon. He's sitting
13 here with us. He is and intern and helped in the preparation.
14 And another issue is I think I will not need two hours, but I can
15 do this examination-in-chief in about 90 minutes.
16 Examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:
17 Q. Mr. Baricevic, good afternoon. First of all, I would like to
18 tell the Judges your private and professional background. So could you
19 please tell us, what is your nationality, and what is your ethnicity?
20 A. I'm a Croat, Catholic.
21 Q. Are you married, and do you have children?
22 A. I'm married. My wife's name is Jadranka. I have a daughter and
23 a son. The daughter was born in 1978 and the son in 1983. I live in
24 Jaksic. (redacted)
25 Q. Could you please let us know in which country is this village is
2 A. The village is in Croatia
3 Q. Did you always live in Croatia
4 A. No, no. Until the 19th of May, 1992, I lived in Hrtkovci, in
5 Vojvodina. The address was Savska, number 19.
6 Q. Can you please let us know, since when did you live in Hrtkovci?
7 A. I lived in Hrtkovci from my birth, 1953, up until the date that
8 I've already told you about.
9 Q. Have your parents already lived in Hrtkovci?
10 A. My mother -- or, rather, my great-grandfather, grandfather and
11 mother always lived in Hrtkovci, whereas my father originally came from
12 Lika, present-day Croatia
13 Q. Could you please let us know what was your occupation or your
14 work in Hrtkovci?
15 A. Well, actually, I completed secondary school in Hrtkovci.
16 Actually, it was a 3-year vocational school in Ruma. Then I went to do
17 my military service in Sombor. I did my training over two and a half
18 months' time, and after that I was transferred to Tuzla. So that went on
19 for 15 months. Afterwards, I went to Zagreb. I worked for the railways
20 there. I completed some vocational training there at the railways, that
21 is to say, to drive motor vehicles. I spent three years there. After
22 three years, I went back to Hrtkovci where I started working for the
23 waterworks. I worked there as a maintenance worker up until 1992.
24 Q. Have you ever been engaged in politics?
25 A. While I was still doing my military service, I was a member of
1 the Communist Party, all the way up to the death of Josip Broz Tito.
2 When he died, I returned my membership card and I never joined any party
4 Q. So you were never afterwards in a political party, but did you
5 engage in political affairs on the local level?
6 A. No, no.
7 Q. Sorry. I don't know if you --
8 A. I don't know how you're going to understand this. I was just a
9 member of the Assembly of the Local Commune. A member of the Assembly of
10 the Local Commune, well, that is an organ that governs the local commune,
11 that takes care of the functioning of the local commune, basic care
12 concerning the local commune. It's not really a political party, no.
13 That's what I did, and the term of office was four years.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One small detail.
15 You told us that you were a member of the Communist Party. At
16 the time, out of 100 people, how many were members of the Communist
17 Party; 10 per cent, 20 per cent, 50 per cent? Was it only a minority
18 that was in the Communist Party or other?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know what? Most people
20 who, well, worked for the municipality and the local commune were
21 supposed to be members of the party in order to get a job. This was an
22 unwritten rule.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understood you right, you
24 were a member of the Communist Party for your job, not for ideological
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. That's right.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
3 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
4 Q. Mr. Baricevic, do you know how many inhabitants Hrtkovci had at
5 the time?
6 A. I didn't quite understand you. What time do you mean? You mean
7 when I got my job with the local commune or when? Later in 1992?
8 Q. No, in 1990.
9 A. In the 1990s, our village had a population of 2.900, roughly,
10 perhaps -- well, give or take an inhabitant or two.
11 Q. Do you know what the ethnic distribution was in your village? I
12 guess there was more than one.
13 A. There were 13 different ethnicities in our village. 75 per cent
14 were Croats and Hungarians, and 25 per cent were all the rest -- well,
15 all the rest.
16 Q. Do you know how many -- what was the percentage of the Serb
17 ethnicity among this 25 per cent?
18 A. Well, the Serb ethnicity were, well, about 25 per cent, so 5 per
19 cent would be all the rest -- I mean, well, Romanians and all the rest.
20 Q. Can you describe the relationship between the different
21 ethnicities before 1990?
22 A. Yes. You know what? Well, this village was a village of
23 industrious people, a calm and peaceful place. When you'd arrive there,
24 you wouldn't know who was who. All of these people were hardworking.
25 They worked day in, day out, and no distinctions were made in terms of
1 ethnicity or anything else.
2 Q. Had there been any tensions between the ethnicities?
3 A. Well, ethnic tensions started -- well, it is a well-known fact
4 that Milosevic held his rallies all the way from Kosovo to Vojvodina.
5 Then in the village, well, he pulled some people -- I don't know how to
6 put this. There is chafe in every wheat, if I can put it that way. But,
7 you know, people didn't really pay much attention to these people who
8 were becoming louder and louder.
9 Q. Did I understand you correct that before Milosevic had these
10 rallies, the relationship between the ethnicities was okay; there were no
12 A. That's right. That's right. It was peaceful. As I've already
13 said, everything was fine.
14 Q. And can you tell us when there was a change? Can you give us the
15 year, probably?
16 A. Well, as I said, when Milosevic organised these rallies, then
17 this party was established, Vuk Draskovic's party and Seselj's party, you
18 know, and then people -- well, how should I put this? People who were in
19 favour of that party were already apart from the rest, and they started
20 creating some trouble and whatever.
21 Q. Do you know when Seselj's party was erected in Hrtkovci?
22 A. Well, sometime in 1991, a branch was established in the village,
23 of Seselj's party, that is. First of all, Aco Ejic founded this party or
24 these parties, and Ostoja Sibincic founded the SPO; and then Aco Ejic
25 gave up, and Sibincic espoused the SPO. I mean, he was in Seselj's
1 party. I am sorry, yes.
2 Q. We'll come to this later. Can you give us the reasons why these
3 tensions arose?
4 A. I didn't quite understand you. I'm sorry.
5 Q. You told us -- I'll summarise it. You told us until 1990, the
6 relationship was okay between the different ethnicities; and from 1991
7 onwards, there was a rise of tension or there were first tensions, and I
8 want to know from you what was the reason for these tensions.
9 A. Just a minute, please. The tensions started when this party was
10 established. At first, these refugees came in. This group of 160
11 refugees came from Slavonia
12 among the people there.
13 Q. Can you please tell us, what were these refugees and where did
14 they come from? You already said "Slavonia," but what was the reason
15 that they came, and what kind of people were these?
16 A. Well, you know what? This first wave of refugees -- just a
17 moment, please. This first wave of refugees arrived from Slavonia.
18 Just a moment. Sorry.
19 This first wave of refugees arrived from Slavonia, and then the
20 local Commune of Hrtkovci found some kind of shelter for these people,
21 and, also, food aid was given to them. We collected food for them. The
22 local commune even bought stoves for them, for those people who didn't
23 have stoves in their homes, and in that way they were taken care of.
24 Even financial contributions were given for these people who said that
25 they didn't have any money.
1 Q. Was there enough room for all the refugees in Hrtkovci in the
3 A. No. Well, a few remained, but, you know, they had some
4 relatives -- well, there wasn't enough room for them, you know.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, is this still 1991?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's already the beginning of 1992.
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A small mystery that I haven't
9 been able to solve until now.
10 These refugees came from Slavonia
11 your village? Couldn't they go elsewhere? Is it because your village
12 was on the way from Slavonia
13 village? Why didn't they directly go to Belgrade? Why did they stop in
14 your village?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is something I find
16 unclear, too, but I will tell you that they were channeled, in a way.
17 They reported to this president, this president of that branch, I mean,
18 and he channeled them to different places. I cannot tell you what the
19 connection was, but at any rate, all of them came to Hrtkovci.
20 Now, I cannot say that this or that person asked them to come. I
21 cannot tell you about the first group, what the reason was, but I did
22 know that they all turned to Ostoja Sibincic.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
24 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
25 Q. You already mentioned Ostoja Sibincic. Could you please describe
1 us the role he had at that time in the village?
2 A. Ostoja Sibincic, well, I know him very well. He's just a bit
3 older than I am. He completed some military academy, and then he was
4 thrown out of there, and then he came to Ruma to work as a municipality
5 clerk, and he led Seselj's party there. He was a very active member.
6 Q. Was he in Seselj's -- Mr. Seselj's party from the beginning, or
7 was he in another party? Do you remember this?
8 A. Well, I've already said. First, he espoused the SPO; and then
9 briefly, he went to Seselj's party.
10 Q. Do you know him personally?
11 A. Oh, yes, personally. I live in one street, and he lives in this
12 other street. I've known him very well.
13 Q. Can you please tell us a bit about his political attitude, if you
14 know this?
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, if I may.
16 This switch from one party to another, when did it occur?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know the date, you know,
18 but it was towards the end of 1991.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution and the Judges
20 are asking very important questions for us. I mean, they are crucial for
21 us. We need to know when the Serbian Radical Party actually had a seat
22 and had recognition.
23 I'm listening to you. You're saying that Mr. Seselj had a party
24 and this and that. This is not enough for us. We need to have dates.
25 We need to know the exact date at which this happened, and we need to
1 know exactly why you know that this is Mr. Seselj's party. So could you
2 please enlighten us on this?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know the exact dates,
4 but it was towards the end of 1991. And he always stressed that he was a
5 radical, and the -- he didn't have the headquarters of his party there,
6 but the meetings were held in his apartment. His apartment was smack in
7 the middle of the village, you know.
8 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
9 Q. Mr. Baricevic, you described Mr. Sibincic as a radical. Do you
10 remember if he gave a specific name to Serbs who had a friendly
11 relationship to Croats at that time?
12 A. Well, as I've already said, I was a member of the Local Commune
13 Assembly, and there was this meeting that we held that was attended by
14 Ostoja Sibincic. The president of the Local Commune Assembly was a Serb,
15 an ethnic Serb, Dobrosav Markovic, and he told him this: He said, "What
16 kind of Serbs are you when you've been able to live side by side with
17 Ustashas for such a long time?"
18 Q. Do you know the expression he used? If you don't remember, it
19 doesn't matter, but do you remember?
20 A. Yes, yes. He said that the local indigenous Serbs were
21 low-quality Serbs, whereas the Serbs that had come from Slavonia, he said
22 that they were good-quality Serbs.
23 Q. Why were the local Serbs qualified as low-quality Serbs?
24 A. Well, that was because they got along well with Croats. As I've
25 already explained, they lived in a brotherly fashion. They helped each
1 other. This was a village of industrious people, people who got along
2 well with each other.
3 Q. You already mentioned it. How was Ostoja Sibincic involved in
4 the housing problems? Can you please describe it a bit broader?
5 A. Well, as I've already explained, all those people, all those
6 refugees turned to him personally, and he provided them with addresses of
7 people who were working abroad in Germany, Italy, France
9 family, to their neighbours, for safekeeping, so to speak. But they
10 would come back to spend their annual leave there in those houses.
11 Q. And what did Ostoja Sibincic propose to locate the refugees?
12 A. Well, his proposal was that those people should move in, but the
13 local commune could not dispose of other people's property without the
14 approval of the owner.
15 Q. So this was also a reason that tensions arose?
16 A. Yes, that was a reason for the tensions. People had to start
17 locking their doors and report to other people what the situation was
18 like in the village.
19 Q. Do you remember names of persons who came -- of refugees who came
20 from Slavonia
21 A. Well, I do know that there was this man, Rade Cakmak. Yes, I'm
22 able to recall this one name. He broke into a house owned by a man who
23 worked in Germany
24 all kinds of things because this man had worked in Germany for 30 years.
25 Q. Did there come a moment when this housing situation in Hrtkovci
1 became critical with the arrival of refugees from Slavonia?
2 A. Well, the situation became critical because of the unrest that
3 was generated in the village. People were simply upset; they felt
4 uneasy. And the people who had come from Slavonia, they were also
5 looking for some kind of a solution.
6 Q. Do you know if promises have been made to these refugees related
7 to their accommodation?
8 A. Those refugees had been duped. They had been told that the
9 houses would be empty, that the people from Hrtkovci had gone to join the
10 Ustashas. But when they came, there were people living in those houses,
11 working, living in the houses.
12 Q. Did the refugees complain about the situation?
13 A. Yes. They demanded a meeting with Seselj. They wanted Seselj to
14 attend the meeting. But on Easter -- rather, on Good Friday, an
15 activist, a female activist from Ruma came. I don't know her name, but
16 she came to attend this meeting that was held in the culture hall in
18 Q. Mr. Baricevic, what I'd like to know is: From where do you know
19 that refugees complained about the situation? Can you let us know?
20 A. Well, of course I know. When I worked in the local commune, I
21 was there all the time with all of them, and I knew that a meeting would
22 be held because I had the keys to the hall. In fact, I kept the keys for
23 all the important buildings in Hrtkovci because I was in the local
24 commune, so they came to me to ask me for the keys in order to be able to
25 hold the meeting.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Witness. What my
2 colleague was saying, well, the same thing crossed my mind. What we need
3 to know are the dates. This meeting was held in the presence of this
4 woman coming from Ruma. On what date?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the Catholic Easter, the
6 Good Friday. The Good Friday, to be more specific.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1998, in April, since it was
8 Easter for the Catholics. We'll check.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the Good Friday. That's
10 the most specific --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another point also.
12 You said that they had been tricked. When I heard you say that,
13 I wondered who they had been duped by; the Croats who had told them to
14 leave and, "You will find houses in Hrtkovci," or by Serbs, who told them
15 that they would find houses in Hrtkovci? Who tricked them, exactly?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said Serbs, of
17 course, because they had told them that Croats had gone to Croatia
18 join the Ustashas, the army. You know, that's what they said. They said
19 that the houses were empty. The local -- the local authorities, they
20 most likely duped them because they told the refugees that.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, by Serbs from
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
25 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
1 Q. Let's come back to Good Friday in April 1991. You described that
2 a female activist arrived in Hrtkovci --
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, no, it wasn't in 1991. It
4 was in 1992.
5 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I'm sorry. It was a mistake. I mean 1992.
6 Thank you for correcting me.
7 Q. You told us that the refugees were not satisfied with what this
8 female activist told them. Did they have another wish, who should come
9 to Hrtkovci to resolve or to care about their problems?
10 A. After that -- they were unhappy, and after that they demanded to
11 meet with Seselj. They wanted Seselj to come personally to the village
12 and to hold this meeting with them.
13 Q. Why did they ask that Mr. Seselj should come to Hrtkovci?
14 A. Well, I don't know what happened at that meeting, but people were
15 really dissatisfied, unhappy. They wanted this meeting to be held, and
16 it was finally held on the 6th of May.
17 Q. Okay, we come to this later. But could you please let us know,
18 was there a kind of preparation for this rally before Mr. Seselj arrived?
19 A. Yes, of course. Throughout the day, there was Chetnik music
20 blaring from the loudspeakers.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Witness. Since we
22 are dealing with extremely important issues, it is important to take this
23 step by step and not make a mistake. I listened very carefully to what
24 you're saying, therefore.
25 If I have understood correctly, dissatisfied Serbs wanted to meet
1 Mr. Seselj, and then a woman comes from Ruma --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- and those people who wanted
4 to meet Seselj don't meet him, since it is a woman who comes. And you
5 say that the meeting of the 6th of May was then organised. We know that
6 on the 6th of May, Mr. Seselj delivered a speech.
7 So how do you know that all this happened, i.e., that the
8 dissatisfied Serbs want to see Mr. Seselj, and instead, the woman from
9 Ruma comes, and the meeting of the 6th of May is organised? How do you
10 know that.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said. I worked
12 in the village. I talked to people. I worked with them, and it's a
13 village. People talk about stuff, and the word gets 'round. And I've
14 already told you that I had given them the keys to the culture hall where
15 the meeting was held with this woman, and I started to recount how, as
16 far as the 6th of May is concerned, I gave them the PA system from the
17 culture hall, and this was something that was bought by the Local Commune
18 Assembly to be put at the disposal of all the political parties. All of
19 them were given the right to some space and to the PA system.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we know, since we've
21 heard other witnesses, the Bench already have some evidence. We know
22 that there was an election campaign at the time. Therefore, as part of
23 the election campaign, politicians like Mr. Seselj come to one or other
24 village to hold speeches in view of the upcoming elections. You are
25 stating that the meeting of the 6th of May has nothing to do with the
1 election campaign, if I understand you correctly, but had to do with
2 those dissatisfied Serbs who wanted to meet Mr. Seselj. According to
3 you, there are two reasons. Either it is due to the political campaign,
4 and that is why Mr. Seselj was there, or it was because those
5 dissatisfied Serbs wanted to meet Mr. Seselj.
6 So what is the reason, according to you?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely. They wanted to meet
8 Mr. Seselj so that he could give them some guidelines how to proceed, to
9 put it quite simply.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but since Mr. Seselj
11 did not hold an official position in the local commune -- was that the
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they demanded to meet with
14 somebody higher up in the Radical Party. They were unhappy with
15 Ostoja Sibincic. They wanted to talk to somebody higher up to give them
16 some guidelines as to how to proceed, what they should do.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's proceed.
18 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Sorry.
19 Q. I was asking if there was a kind of preparation for this rally,
20 and you started before the Presiding Judge asked you an additional
21 question. But there was music. Was there also more? What was this
22 preparation; can you tell us?
23 A. Well, there was music and there were posters all over the
24 streets, and across the road from the gas station there was some kind of
25 a platform put up. A trailer was dragged there, and then the sides were
1 put down, and this was some kind of a scene.
2 Q. Where was it in the village; can you let us know?
3 A. Well, it was in Vladimir Nazor Street. Let me think about the
4 number. 15, near the number 15. There was the intersection. Well,
5 that's where most -- where there was a lot of space, and the lawn that
6 was across the road from the gas station was used to put up this stage.
7 Q. Before Mr. Seselj arrived the 6th of May, did there arrive, also,
8 other people to the village?
9 A. A bus came in.(redacted)
11 (redacted), and there were
12 White Eagles on the bus. They said that they were there as Seselj's
13 security detail.
14 Q. From where do you know that these were White Eagles?
15 A. Well, they wore black uniforms, and they had rifles.
16 Q. But there were also other people who had black uniforms and
17 rifles. This does not explain to me why these should have been
18 White Eagles.
19 A. Well, they said they were the White Eagles, that they were
20 Seselj's security.
21 Q. Do you know of a political group which is asserted -- which the
22 White Eagles are asserted to, the White Eagles belong to?
23 A. Well, what is the name of it? Let me think just a moment. What
24 was it that they said?
25 Q. If you don't remember, we'll come to the next question. It's not
1 that important for me.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to get back
3 to something which is extremely important, which you mentioned at the
4 first time we hear this and deserves our attention.
5 You said that these men dressed in black and that had rifles were
6 the White Eagles. You said they were in charge of Mr. Seselj's security.
7 When you say "they," is it something they said -- told you directly, or
8 was this something you heard from someone else?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they didn't tell me
10 personally, but they said -- well, they were -- there were people there
11 at the gas station, and they told them. They didn't tell me personally,
12 but I was there close by, and they were guarding the area around the gas
13 station and the stage.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,
15 there was a group of people standing next to the petrol station. Then
16 the White Eagles arrive, and they tell this group standing there that
17 they were in charge of Mr. Seselj's security. And you hear someone from
18 the group saying this to you, or were they talking amongst themselves and
19 that is something which you overheard? Is this how things happened?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, they talked, and that's
21 how I learnt about it.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Had you heard about the
23 White Eagles before that time, or was it the first time you saw them?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean in the village?
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, in the village.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]
2 ... time. The first time.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But before that time, were the
4 White Eagles well known?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, people didn't know about
6 them, but they had never been to the village. That was the first time.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What did people say about these
8 men; good things or bad things?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bad things. Bad things were said
10 about those people. They were not an army at all. They had long hair.
11 They were disheveled. They were dressed in all kinds of clothes. Some
12 people wore boots, some other kind of footwear. You could see that this
13 was not a regular, proper army.
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. There's something I
15 don't understand.
16 When the local municipality is informed that a political party is
17 organising a rally and decides to provide what is necessary in support of
18 this rally, is the local police also informed about this; in other words,
19 that the police needs to stand guard in the village? Was the local
20 police there, and if the local police were there, this meant that a group
21 which did not belong to the local police could be in charge of law and
22 order in Hrtkovci?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand your question.
24 There was police, but the police did not attend the rally, the police
25 that belonged to the authorities at the time. They were about a
1 kilometre away from the area, and they were regulating traffic, so one
2 kilometre away at both sides. So all they did was just regulate the
3 traffic. They were not there at the rally.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's clear.
5 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
6 Q. Did you, yourself, go to the rally?
7 A. I did attend this rally there where the gas station was.
8 Q. Why did you go there?
9 A. Well, I was curious as to what would be done with Croats because
10 I had heard all kinds of stories, and then I said to myself, well, let's
11 go there, and let's see what will be decided. I was simply curious.
12 Q. Did you go alone, or were you accompanied by someone?
13 A. No, I did not go there alone. My brother, my half-brother,
14 Ladislav Hunjadi from France
15 together, and I said, "Well, brother, it seems that this is the last time
16 that you've come to visit me." So he looked at me. He didn't get what I
17 was saying. And then I told him, "Well, you'll see after this rally,
18 sure enough."
19 Q. Why did you have this feeling? Can you explain this?
20 A. Well, as I've already told you, if one lives in the village,
21 works side by side with people, you can see how they're thinking, and you
22 do realise what's going on.
23 Q. Do you know how many people, approximately, participated at that
25 A. Well, there were quite a few people. People came in from all
1 over the place, from various villages. There were about 2.000 people.
2 Q. Do you know who gave a speech during this rally? Can you tell
4 A. Well, the rally was opened by Milan Zilic. The stage was
5 actually set up in front of his house.
6 Q. Can you please describe us the stage, how it was constructed,
7 what kind of stage it was?
8 A. Well, as I've already explained, it was a trailer that was
9 dragged there by a tractor, and then the sides were put down, and some
10 kind of a lectern was put there for the speakers to use.
11 Q. Did Mr. Zilic mention names of the Hrtkovci inhabitants?
12 A. Mr. Zilic made a speech, and he mentioned the names of people who
13 had already been in Croatia
15 you the names: Sostaric, the Grdic brothers, the Cindric brothers,
16 Stepic, Markus, Mate Markus, and the rest. He said that they had joined
17 the ZNG and that they were attacking Serbs with Ustasha knives. That is
18 how he described the situation and these people while he made his speech.
19 Q. Did he say what should happen to these people or these families?
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, everything you're
21 saying is of utmost importance. To make sure that you don't make
22 assumptions, let me tell you that we have the speeches made by the three
23 speakers. We have their speeches, and I've just noted that you said
24 something that was not in the speech. At one point in time, you said
25 that Mr. Zilic talked about the Ustashi knives. Are you absolutely sure
1 you heard it with your own ears?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're completely sure?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm quite sure. Yes, yes.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What exactly did he say?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were the first people whose
7 names were called out at the beginning of the speech. It was stated that
8 they were in the ZNG and that they were attacking people with Ustasha
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is it "knife," or is it -- what
11 kind of knife is it, this Ustasha knife?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I never saw this type of
13 knife before, so I don't know what he meant. That's what he said.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. President, allow me to correct. We have
16 Mr. Seselj's published speech which Mr. Seselj published in his books.
17 It's the Prosecution -- just to be correct.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, can I ask you, now that you
20 mention the version of the speech which we have seen in Mr. Seselj's
21 book, do you know if there exists a recording -- an audio-recording of
22 the speech, and if so, if that audio-recording has been typed out?
23 MR. MUSSEMEYER: What I can tell you is that the Prosecution
24 tried for more than two years to get this audio record of the speech,
25 which allegedly exists. We never could find it. When Mr. Seselj was
1 testifying in Milosevic, he said three times that he has the video of the
2 speech and that he will use this video during his case. At that moment,
3 we gave up because we had -- we said that it's important that the truth
4 comes out. We cannot find this speech. Very strange things happened
5 when we tried to get it. There were archives burned down and so on, so
6 we gave up, and we didn't -- we don't have the speech. We have what
7 Mr. Seselj published. We are informed that this is in his book. I don't
8 remember the title, but it was published when he was already in
9 detention. We don't know a further version.
10 We have got from Mr. Seselj the 80 books, which he gave to us in
11 October of 2003. We were very carefully looking through these books. We
12 couldn't find it. Maybe that we over-read it, but I would be very
13 grateful to Mr. Seselj if he could show us where it is published in these
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, last time you told
17 us that you had the video. Of course, you said that you were not going
18 to cooperate with the OTP and you had no intention of disclosing this to
19 the OTP. But it's important, so the Trial Chamber now is turning to you.
20 If you have the video and the audiotape that goes along with it, please
21 give it. It could be very useful for you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have the video-recording, and I
23 had intended to use it in the cross-examination of Witness Aleksa Ejic.
24 However, as you know, all my communications with my associates, with my
25 Defence team, with my legal advisers have been cut off, and I am not in a
1 position to use that video clip. However, Mr. Mussemeyer would have to
2 say whose archives, when, where; and Mr. Mussemeyer would have to review
3 those 80 books that I handed in here in the courtroom in 2003 to counsel
4 for the Prosecution. They contain the entire transcript of the rally
5 from Hrtkovci. These are paperbacks. Mr. Mussemeyer has a new edition
6 of my complete works, hardcover ones that were published after went to
7 The Hague
8 The Hague
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mussemeyer,
10 those archives which burned down, or I don't know what -- what exactly
11 are you talking about?
12 MR. MUSSEMEYER: What I'm talking about is that we tried to get
13 in possession of the video and the speech, and we did not succeed. We
14 were trying hard to find it over there in, let's say, Austria, in Germany
15 and France. We were trying specifically in Serbia, but we never could
16 find this video. And when we contacted a television station, it was --
17 in one case, it was said that the archive burned down. On other
18 occasions, we were told that the tapes have been used for next little
19 video clips because there were not enough tapes. The result is we never
20 got in possession of this video.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, let's not give up hope.
22 Maybe Mr. Seselj's associates will soon send it, and we'll be able to
23 look at it and see it. Let's not give up any hope.
24 MR. MUSSEMEYER: A little observation. We were looking very
25 carefully through all these 80 books. It doesn't mean that I personally
1 did it. As you know, I unfortunately don't speak B/C/S, but we have
2 analysts who were reading through all the books. They had a specific
3 view of Hrtkovci, and they couldn't find it. It's possible that they
4 overread it, so it would be great if Mr. Seselj could tell us in which
5 book it was published, that we can come with the real version.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, in which book is
7 it? In which book is this speech?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot remember exactly in which
9 book out of the 80 concerned. However, the title is not "Speeches in
10 Hrtkovci" but "The Major Importance of the May Elections," so they can
11 search under that heading. That's how it was published.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So it is "The Major
13 Importance of the Speeches of the May Election" or something like that.
14 Very well. You may proceed.
15 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
16 Q. Mr. Baricevic, let's come back to the speech of Milan Zilic. You
17 told us that he was mentioning family names of Hrtkovci inhabitants. Was
18 your name also mentioned by him?
19 A. No, no. My speech was -- my name was not mentioned in that
20 speech made by Milan Zilic.
21 Q. Who spoke after Mr. Zilic has finished his speech?
22 A. Some woman that I didn't know. I don't know what her name was,
23 but she spoke very briefly. I mean, she did not make a very long speech.
24 She made a very short speech.
25 Q. Who spoke next?
1 A. After her, Seselj spoke, Vojislav Seselj.
2 Q. Could you see and hear him clearly?
3 A. Well, I've already said that I was 30 or 40 metres away from the
4 stage, and things could be heard quite clearly.
5 Q. Do you remember the main topics of Mr. Seselj's speech?
6 A. Well, I remember. At any rate, in the beginning, well, something
7 was wrong with the loudspeakers, and then he asked for the -- for the
8 loudspeakers to be switched off and to remove the ropes that they had
9 placed there. Afterwards, the speech started with the well-known
10 borders, Virovitica, Karlobag and whatever else, whatever it was that he
11 said, as he did say, as he presented these borders of this future Greater
13 Q. Has he also mentioned names in his speech?
14 A. Well, as I said, he spoke. He made this short speech, and then
15 after that, after that, the names of the top people in the village.
16 Well, that's what he called out: Mato Samov [phoen], Franjo Samov
17 [phoen], Dr. Branko Vuksanic, Zdenko Barisic, head of the local office.
18 Among them, he called out my name, too, and others.
19 Q. Do you remember when --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. You heard the
21 speech. You listened very carefully to the speech, right? You said that
22 you came out of curiosity, that you were 30 metres away from Mr. Seselj,
23 but you listened very carefully to the speech. And do you remember the
24 speech well, as of now?
25 Let me read a passage from this speech, and I would like to have
1 your opinion on this. This is what he says:
2 "We must maintain the existence of Yugoslavia because it will
3 then be much easier for Serbs from Krajina and from the Serbian
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina to integrate Yugoslavia as a federal entity, much
5 easier than if we had proclaimed the state of Serbia and if they had had
6 to integrate the state later on at a later stage. In this respect, to
7 integrate Yugoslavia
8 left it; and thanks to this, they will be in a much better position on
9 the international scene."
10 So here, he spoke about Yugoslavia
11 that he told everyone he was talking to that he was in favour of
13 what did you think of that at the time?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that. I do
15 remember that he said, "Serb Dubrovnik, Serb Karlovac, Serb Virovitica."
16 Just a moment, please. Well, that's the kind of thing he said.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't remember the other
18 part. Very well.
19 Mr. Prosecutor, you have the floor.
20 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
21 Q. You mentioned that you also heard your name from Mr. Seselj's
22 mouth; is that correct, just to summarise if I understood it correctly?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Did he give the reason what should happen to these people he was
25 reading out?
1 A. Well, he said that Serb refugees did not have a roof over their
2 heads and that Croats had to leave the village within three days. They
3 would get keys and addresses, and they'd have to leave the village. If
4 they didn't want to do that, they will load them onto a bus and send them
5 to the border. "Let them go to their beautiful homeland." Well, their
6 homeland, that is.
7 Q. Do we have an idea where Mr. Seselj got these names? He is not
8 from Hrtkovci.
9 A. Well, of course he's not. Ostoja Sibincic, the top people gave
10 him that list, the top people of that political party.
11 Q. Is that your assumption, or do you know this for certain?
12 A. I know that for sure because Seselj didn't even know who held
13 what position, who had what job, and he read everything out very exactly
14 and specifically.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, here, again, you are
16 addressing a very important topic.
17 In the speech that we have, which is an extract of Mr. Seselj's
18 book, this is not mentioned. There could be two reasons for this:
19 Either in the excerpts that he published in his book, he slightly
20 tampered his speech and took out the passage you mentioned; or the second
21 reason is that you could be adding things in his mouth, putting things in
22 his mouth.
23 I'm putting a question again to you, and it's very important.
24 Are you absolutely sure that during this speech Mr. Seselj read out a
25 list of names of people living in your village who were Croats and who
1 had to leave? Are you 100 per cent sure that he read out this list?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm perfectly sure.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 100 per cent sure. So when he
4 published the book, he tampered with the truth?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at any rate, he read out
6 these people's names, and these people moved out of the village.
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you give us the
8 difference between the list that was read out by Zilic and the list read
9 out by Mr. Seselj?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll tell you very gladly. What
11 Mr. Zilic read out were the names of people who were already in Germany
12 and Austria
13 these people whose names Seselj read out, these people worked in
14 Hrtkovci, lived there. At that time, they were still working there, at
15 the time when the rally was held.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's assume that you were
17 telling the truth. Mr. Seselj delivered a speech and reads out names.
18 As far as you recollect, what happened? Did he take out a piece of paper
19 from his pocket to read out that list, or did he give all those names
20 while he was speaking from the top of his head?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't see him take it out
22 of his pocket, this list, I mean. However, I do know that these people
23 had their names called out and that he could not have known the names of
24 people who had lived there. It's the top people from the village who
25 wrote this up for him and gave it to him to read.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if you're telling the truth,
2 this means that before delivering his speech, Mr. Seselj spoke with the
3 leaders, and the leaders gave him a list. Then he, who knows absolutely
4 no one in this village - this is the first time that he set foot in this
5 village - just out of -- from memory, he was able to give five or ten --
6 between five to ten names, which means that he learned five to ten names
7 by rote so that he could actually speak them out in his speech, because
8 in the speech that I have, he mentioned a great number of people, but
9 people who had nothing to do with the village. For example, he mentioned
10 members of the Communist League, Vuk Draskovic, Milan Komenic, Dragoljub
11 Misilevic [phoen], Zoran Djindjic, Kosta Kovarski [phoen], Nikola
12 Milosevic. So he mentioned a great number of names. So he's very good
13 at quoting names of people that he knows for political reasons, of
14 course, but he didn't know the names of the villagers in the first place.
15 That means that if you're telling the truth, he learned by rote five to
16 ten names and then delivered them in a speech.
17 Is this what happened?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to say something to you.
19 Ostoja Sibincic was Seselj's right-hand man. Most probably, he
20 had contacted him - every day, that is - in terms of what the situation
21 in the village was like.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you think that
23 Ostoja Sibincic was in permanent contact with Mr. Seselj, and that's how
24 he learned those names. That may be what happened. I mean, as a Judge,
25 I have to look into all possibilities.
1 Mr. Mussemeyer, we have seven to eight minutes left before the
2 break. You may proceed.
3 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Mr. Baricevic, did Mr. Seselj also speak about mixed marriages in
5 his speech? Do you remember?
6 A. He did speak, yes, and he said the following: Mixed marriages
7 should be divorced, and children from mixed marriages should be killed.
8 Q. Are you sure about this?
9 A. 100 per cent sure.
10 Q. I will come now to the time after the speech. Mr. Baricevic, can
11 you tell us how the atmosphere --
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Prosecutor.
13 I'd like to come back to this because this is also essential.
14 You heard distinctively that Mr. Seselj was saying that children
15 from mixed marriage should be killed? I mean, this is terrible, and this
16 is spoken in front of 2.000 people. You're saying "2.000," and another
17 witness said there were only 700 people in attendance. So he did utter
18 those words? It's not in the book, in the speech that's in the book.
19 I can tell you that right away. You're absolutely sure that you heard
21 One question in passing. Were there any reporters present? The
22 day after the speech, was there any reports of the speech in the papers
23 or excerpts of the speech in the papers? Did the radio talk about it,
24 saying that Mr. Seselj came to Hrtkovci to make a speech and so forth and
25 so on? Were there any reports on this speech? This is a politician on
1 May 6th, 1992
2 killed, this should be in the front page of all papers in the world. So
3 I would like to know whether any reporters were present at the time.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see the journalists, but
5 afterwards I saw that the rally was written about. "Borba" wrote about
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] "Borba"?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The reporter must have been
10 there, probably.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later on, I read that they had
12 written about that rally.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Could the local police who was
15 regulating traffic, could they hear the PA system? Could they hear the
16 speech through the PA system at the time?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that Seselj had said to turn
18 off the loudspeakers and to remove the ropes. I don't think that the
19 local police guarded this.
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, you may
23 MR. MUSSEMEYER: How much time do I have until the break? Five
24 minutes or --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Three minutes.
1 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I will continue.
2 Q. I wanted to ask the witness if there was any change of atmosphere
3 after Mr. Seselj was gone and has delivered the speech.
4 A. After this speech, the situation in the village became very
5 heated. People -- or rather, groups of people broke into houses. They
6 forced people out of their homes.
7 Q. Did you and/or other inhabitants of Hrtkovci try to get
8 protection from the authorities, from the police?
9 A. Since I was a member of the local commune and Dobrosav Markovic
10 was president of the Assembly of the Local Commune, we set out to Ruma
11 together. We went to the State Security Service to see Slavko Kulundzic,
12 who was in charge of the area, so that he would find a solution for the
13 village because there was chaos in the village. So we went to see him,
14 and we asked for help. This is what he said; these were his words:
15 "Whoever has to leave, let them leave." So we didn't get any protection.
16 As for the local police, when people asked them to help, they
17 didn't turn them down. They just said, "Okay, okay"; and quite simply.
18 They turned a deaf ear. They didn't intervene. They just wanted the
19 people who were addressing them to be satisfied.
20 Q. Do you know what was the goal of this harassment of the local
21 Hrtkovci Croats by the refugees?
22 A. Well, the goal was the ethnic cleansing, to expel the Croats so
23 that they went to Croatia
24 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. President, I think it's a good moment for
25 the break because --
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it is very timely.
2 We'll now break for 20 minutes.
3 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Court is back in session.
6 Mr. Mussemeyer, you have the floor.
7 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, before we come back to the
8 examination-in-chief of Mr. Baricevic, we have been looking during the
9 break for the book that Mr. Seselj mentioned. He said it would be -- the
10 book where he said his speech was published, he said it would be called
11 "The Major Importance of the May Elections." We found a book in the
12 meantime that was called "The Vital Importance of the May Elections," and
13 I would like to know from the accused if it is possible if it was this
14 book he was talking about.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not the title of the book.
16 It's the title of a chapter inside the book, "The Vital Importance of the
17 May Elections." It's a chapter in the book. Could you please show me
18 the book, and then I will tell you everything if you have the book here.
19 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I can do it next time. I don't have it here,
20 but I will do it next time.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please bring it in next time.
22 That way, you can show it to us, and he will tell you that it's in the
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me just tell you
25 this: As early as in 2003, I obtained from Belgrade a complete set of
1 all the books of my collected works in paperback. The new edition, a
2 hard-back edition, started being put out after my arrival in The Hague
3 so I have 103 of the books that were published in hard-back, and I
4 submitted to the Prosecution all that was published in paperback by 2003.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is what Mr. Seselj had
6 told us a long time ago. When he arrived, he gave the Prosecution - not
7 you personally - but he gave the OTP all the books in paperback. So you
8 should have these paperback books, and in this book there is a chapter
9 entitled "The Vital Importance of the May Elections."
10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: What I can confirm is that we have the books. I
11 was present in the courtroom when he gave us the books. It was maybe the
12 23rd of October, 2003, if my memory serves me correctly. But we will
13 check it, and when we read through these books, we analysed a lot of
14 documents, and it may be that in the near future with a Bar table motion
15 we will try to tender parts of these books.
16 But I will come back to the examination-in-chief of
17 Mr. Baricevic, and Mr. Registrar, please, could we see on the monitor
18 65 ter number 1497. It's a press article from Vreme, and it is called
19 "Vreme press article about murders, beatings, threats, looting, and
20 expulsion in Hrtkovci against the non-Serb population." This article is
21 from the 13th of July, 1992, and I would like the witness to read the
22 paragraph -- the first paragraph, which starts with the heading "The
23 Procedure of Moving Out." It's in the first column.
24 A. Sorry, but I really can't see it. It's way too small for me.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, the first question is what
1 this witness has to do with all that because according to his own
2 testimony, this witness left Hrtkovci by the 15th of May, and this
3 article was published in July of that year, 1992. So the witness cannot
4 comment on it. I'm sure that he has never seen this at the relevant
5 time, and this deals with things that happened after his departure.
6 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I think we can --
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.
8 MR. MUSSEMEYER: We can make a decision when the witness has read
9 about this because this article refers to events which he experienced or
10 which he witnessed at the time. So I would like to have the witness read
11 the paragraph which starts with: "The procedure of moving out." If he
12 can read this, I don't know. I think we have technical problem.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'll try:
14 "Procedure of moving out. Nedeljka, Jelica and Radmila are
15 Serbian women, married to Croats or Hungarians. People tell them on the
16 phone --"
17 Well, I can't really -- could somebody else please read it? I
18 can't read it. It's really too small. The print is too small. I can't
19 see it.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you enlarge the
21 left-hand page, please.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have an additional
23 objection here.
24 The insistence on the witness reading this is nothing less than
25 leading the witness. This witness is now made to read an article from an
1 anti-Serb newspaper, and then he's asked to say whether he agrees with it
2 or not. And this is not an article that deals with the time when he was
4 He's supposed to come here and tell us about his experience.
5 He's not an expert who can comment on other people's articles. And this
6 is not an article about him so that he cannot even tell us, "Yes, this is
7 what I stated."
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you've been given this
9 article. As far as the objection is concerned, the Trial Chamber can
10 state this: This newspaper seems to be an anti-Serb newspaper - this is
11 what Mr. Seselj says - and talks about what happened with those people
12 who were present, those Serbian women who were married to Hungarians or
13 to Croats and who were being telephoned or spoken to. It's interesting
14 to see whether what's mentioned in this article is something which you
15 were aware of.
16 You have the article in front of you. Can you read this article
17 in your own language?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can now. Yes, I do.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Read it out.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one remark, please.
21 I did not leave on the 15th. I left on the 19th. The 19th, yes.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 19th of May. Fine. Please
23 continue to read.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Procedure of moving out.
25 Nedeljka, Jelica and Radmila are Serb women married to Croats or
1 Hungarians. They get telephone calls, and people shout at them in the
2 streets, telling them that they are Ustasha whores or bad Serbs and all
3 kinds of things. They are not the only people we talk to, and all tell a
4 similar story.
5 "On the 6th of May, there was a promotion rally of the Serb
6 Radical Party. Seselj was there too. A list containing the names of 17
7 people was read out, people who do not belong to the village, and that's
8 when the moving out started, willingly or by force. The latter means
9 this: They come to your place in a group. One of them puts a paper
10 under your nose, and you are supposed to sign it, indicating that you are
11 willing to swap your old house where you were born for a house somewhere
12 in Croatia
13 have the right to take with you your TV set, your tractor, nothing of
14 value, least of all the money. Some 40 houses were emptied out in this
15 manner. The rest left on their own, for the most part, after a file was
16 put together indicating that they had been providing assistance to
18 in the ZNG. Well, we almost trusted this until our turn came. Now, when
19 they tell the same story about us, we know that this is not true. We
20 understand that what they said about those who had gone before us was not
21 true either. A woman says, 'My husband went'" --
22 Q. Thank you, Witness. I think this should be enough from this
23 article, and I would like to know from you if you experienced such events
24 and if this really -- if you can confirm this, what is written here in
25 the newspaper.
1 A. Well, I can confirm the events that are described in this paper,
2 and let me tell you what I went through.
3 My daughter was on her way home from school, and she was stopped
4 by some people who asked her, "Who is your father's favourite, you or
5 your brother? Because he can take only one of you with him to Croatia
6 and you know what's going to happen to the other one." And then they
7 called me on the phone. They told me, "What are you waiting for? Why
8 don't you move out?" Not -- more than once, in fact, this happened more
9 than once, until I agreed to swap my house.
10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Before we move on to the next exhibit, I would
11 like to have this moved into evidence, this exhibit with the
12 number 65 ter 1497.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we give it an exhibit
14 number: On looking at the article, I would like to turn to the end of
15 the article where the journalist says that he met the secretary to the
16 local Serbian Radical Party, Milan Zilic. This is what the journalist
18 As far as you know, Witness, was Milan Zilic secretary to the
19 Serbian Radical Party? This is what the journalist says.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I couldn't tell you that,
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we have an
23 exhibit number for this document, please.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P561.
25 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. Registrar, could I have on the monitor the
1 65 ter number 1309. It has already an exhibit number, which is 556, but
2 I wanted to discuss this press article from "Borba" from the 14th of May,
3 1992, with the witness. The title is "Half of the Villagers Packing
4 Suitcases About the Situation in Hrtkovci After Threats and Pressure By
5 Members of the SRS
6 the 14th of May, 1992, when the witness was still in the village.
7 Q. Could you please read the second paragraph in the first column,
8 which starts: "All troubles of the multiethnic village started ..."
9 A. Would you please zoom in a little bit? Is that the article
10 you're talking about?
11 Q. I don't see the beginning, the headline. I cannot say. No,
12 I think it is not the one. It is called "Half the Village Packs Their
13 Bags." There it is, and there's the second paragraph. I can see this
14 now. If you could read from the beginning of the second paragraph.
15 A. "All the troubles of this multiethnic village started on
16 St. George's Day when Vojislav Seselj made a speech in the center of the
17 village clearly saying that there was no place here for the non-Serbs.
18 From that day on, groups of unknown people have been roaming the village
19 on a daily basis, mistreating the people, breaking into their homes and
20 looting. Refugees from Croatia
21 Just a moment:
22 " ... move into the houses owned by Croats, Hungarians, or even
23 Serbs who give them support. At the same time, as fear reigns in the
24 village, people -- people who have to, have to. People who are --"
25 Oh, yes, now that's better:
1 "At the same time, as fear reigns in the village, people who pack
2 their belongings say they have nowhere to go. Most of them have spent
3 the last year on the frontline as JNA reservists, mostly in Vukovar.
4 That is why they say that Croatia
5 no interest to them. People withdraw into their homes as dusk --"
6 Q. Mr. Baricevic, thank you very much. I think that that is enough.
7 What I want to know from you is if this description is correct or it
8 corresponds to your experience or what you witnessed.
9 A. Yes, it does correspond with this text.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I think it would be only
11 fair for the Prosecutor to ask the witness whether he agrees with the
12 contents of the indictment; and once the witness states that he does,
13 then there's no need for us to waste any more time. This really makes no
14 sense at all.
15 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I would like to have the witness read, also, a
16 second paragraph of this press article, and this is -- just a moment.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question before that.
18 Witness, this newspaper, "Borba," which I'm not familiar with,
19 this is a newspaper I assume which is published in Croatia.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. It's a newspaper -- it's a
21 daily, a Belgrade
22 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I would have the witness to read the second
23 paragraph after the headline: "Which Child Do You Love More."
24 Q. Do you see this, Mr. Baricevic? Do you see the headline?
25 A. No.
1 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Madam Usher, there is a headline which is called
2 "Which Child Do You Love More," and I want to go to the next line --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now it's okay. Now I see it.
4 It's fine.
5 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I want to go to the second --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Which Child Do You Love More?"
7 "'I am from Macedonia
8 lived here for more than two decades,' says Marija Los [phoen]. 'My
9 husband has spent three and a half months on the front in Vukovar, and we
10 have nowhere to go, nor do we want to go anywhere.' Over the past two or
11 three days, six houses were broken into in the village, and unknown
12 people moved into three of them by force. The best example is Andrija
13 Cergi. The old house where his mother used to live was given to the
14 refugees by him, and now unknown people took away his new house. Vlado
15 Pakic's house was broken into, as well, and unknown people broke into the
16 house of Rozalija Cakic, an old woman, and mistreated her. Franja Samu,
17 the sawmill manager, is also on the list of undesirables. He immediately
18 tendered his resignation, but the workers refused to accept it. They
19 demand that he remain at the head of the company that he managed so well.
20 Franja Baricevic is also packing his bags. He works in the local office.
21 At night, when he's ordered to move out over the phone, the unknown
22 people ask him -- go as far as to ask him, 'Which child do you love
23 more?' At the beginning of the war in Croatia" --
24 Q. Mr. Baricevic, thank you very much. This is all I wanted you to
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, there is a question of
2 translation that I think it would be useful to clarify before we move on.
3 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Yes, indeed. I realised it when --
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: The issue, is it three months or three days,
5 because given the dates of the article, which appears to be the 14th of
6 May, 1992, it is, of course, of some importance to know whether houses
7 were invaded over "the last three months," as it says in the translation,
8 or whether this happened over "the last three days," as indicated by the
9 witness in his reading-out of the article. So which is it? Is it months
10 or days?
11 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I don't read B/C/S, and I think it's dates --
12 days, but let the witness confirm it to us.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Days, "over the past three days."
14 That's what it says.
15 MR. MUSSEMEYER: And another issue is, there's missing a
16 sentence, I realise now, about the sawmill --
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please go ahead.
18 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I realise that there is missing a sentence in
19 the English translation which deals with the sawmill director, which the
20 witness read to us, and I can't find it in the English version which I
21 have here, which is part of the Court binder. So this should be probably
22 re-translated or checked for the convenience of the Chamber. It's not
23 necessary to move this document into evidence, because it's already
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, one small question.
1 It so happens that in the article, which I have read entirely,
2 your name is mentioned. You are mentioned in the article. This is
3 something which you might or might not be aware of because you work for
4 the local authorities. During the night, you purportedly received
5 telephone calls in which unknown people asked you which of your children
6 you loved the most. As far as you remember, did you meet a journalist
7 from "Borba" called Branislav Gulan?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So how could he know that you
10 were receiving telephone calls during the night?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this happened earlier, and
12 people complained to each other about what was done to them. And when my
13 daughter was intercepted, other children saw that because children went
14 home from school together, and the children saw that my daughter was
15 intercepted, and then they told their parents at home.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. The journalist
17 seems to have met a lot of people because he mentioned a whole series of
18 important figures in the village. And when he concludes, he says, "We
19 are leaving Hrtkovci," and the village is deserted with the exception of
20 a few people. And at the end, he says that there are some people who are
21 going to turn to the president of the republic and the prime minister
22 because they feel that in a federal republic, one cannot force people to
23 leave because they are not a Serb. This is what the journalist says.
24 As far as you know, were there citizens, sir, that seized the
25 prime minister and the president of the republic of the situation which
1 prevailed in that village?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you, I heard that
3 a group of people from the village had gone to Belgrade, but I don't know
4 who they were. This is something that I heard.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they went to Belgrade
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I heard.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you read the papers at the
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, quite frankly, I didn't
10 really feel like reading the papers.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You didn't feel like it, but
12 were the newspapers delivered to your village? Were newspapers on sale
13 in your village?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, papers were on sale regularly,
15 every day.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mussemeyer.
17 MR. MUSSEMEYER: In the meantime, I could find out, just to
18 assist the honourable Judges, that this press article was also published
19 in Mr. Seselj's book, which is called "A Scream of the Shooting Stars in
20 1994 in Belgrade
21 we can check, also, for the translation, maybe, that we can clarify this
22 issue later on, just for -- to assist the Judges.
23 Q. Mr. Baricevic, the next question: We heard what happened. You
24 read what --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the Prosecutor must
3 give you the complete information.
4 This is a book of mine, that's true, but I am merely an editor.
5 It's a compendium of all the worst attacks launched by journalists
6 against me, and "The Scream of the Falling Stars," this title, this is a
7 quote from Dragoslav Mihajlovic's well-known short story. His title was
8 "The Scream of a Falling Star," and I paraphrased it ironically,
9 saying -- calling it "The Scream of the Falling Stars" because I wanted
10 to have all the journalists attacks against me and the Serb Radical Party
11 put in one place.
12 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
13 Q. Mr. Baricevic --
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 For the transcript, we need to put the following conclusion down:
16 This article, P555, was published in Mr. Seselj's book. In this book,
17 there is a collection of all articles that were written either against
18 him or against his party, and this article is in this book.
19 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. President, it was --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 MR. MUSSEMEYER: It was the Exhibit P556 instead of P555.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Absolutely. You're right, and
23 the Registrar also told me that it was, indeed, the P556. Thank you.
24 You may proceed.
25 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
1 Q. Mr. Baricevic, what was your reaction after these events
3 A. When I started receiving those threats, particularly those
4 against my children, I packed them up one night and sent them to Croatia
5 via Hungary
6 children there.
7 Q. Did you remain in Hrtkovci at that time?
8 A. Well, I remained there for a couple of days, and I continued
9 working as usual. But three days later, a man came, a man from Jaksic.
10 He went into Ante Grizelj's house in Hrtkovci. He took the house, and he
11 gave me an address telling me where my new house was to be. It was in
12 Pavla Radica Street, number 7, in Jaksic.
13 Q. Did you see the house before you went there? Sorry, the question
14 was not very correct. Did you sign a contract to get the owner -- to
15 become the owner of this house?
16 A. I signed a contract in Pozega, in an office of an attorney-at-law
17 in Pozega. Mira Primorac was her name. Well, what else could I do? You
18 have to take what was an offer. I left two houses behind, and all I got
19 was a house that was damaged, burnt down. But I got out alive, and my
20 children were safe.
21 Q. Could you please describe how your house was in Hrtkovci and how
22 your house was in the village where you had to move later on?
23 A. Well, the house in the village of Jaksic
24 while my house in Hrtkovci was built in 1983 with solid brick. It was 12
25 by 11 metres. That was the surface area. It was my house, while our
1 family house was in the same yard. The family house was built in 1953,
2 and it was in a very good condition. And I forgot to mention that my
3 house also had an attic.
4 Q. So you exchanged two houses for one house?
5 A. That's right.
6 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. Registrar, I would like to have the 65 ter
7 number 1976 on the monitor, and I would like to go on page 162 of the
8 B/C/S version, the Serbian version.
9 Q. And, Mr. Baricevic, could you then please read the first three
10 paragraphs which follow a very long question on that page.
11 I can see the question, which is in bold, and I would like you to
12 read after the question the first three paragraphs.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, could you tell
14 us exactly where this article comes from?
15 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Sorry. I forgot to give you this important
16 information. It's a chapter of Mr. Seselj's book of interviews. It's
17 called "Philippics of a Chetnik Duke." This is one of the 80 books which
18 Mr. Seselj provided to the Prosecution on the 29th of October, 2003
19 Q. And Mr. Baricevic, just to repeat, could you please read us the
20 first three paragraphs? It's Mr. Seselj's answer to a long question from
21 the journalist.
22 A. It says:
23 "I categorically claim, with full moral and material
24 responsibility, that there have never been national persecutions,
25 so-called ethnic cleansings, under the auspices or in the organisation of
1 the Serb Radical Party, never took place in the organisation of the Serb
2 Radical Party, or will that ever be the case. Paid witnesses who accuse
3 us as assigned cannot -- or can they have any evidence against us. Let
4 them give the names, the locations and dates of places where Serb
5 Radicals abused someone, persecuted someone, or killed someone just
6 because they were not of Serb ethnicity."
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "In the famous ..."
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "In the famous ..."
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The best thing would be for me to
10 read this to the witness. Obviously, he can't read very well; and
11 therefore, he violates my text, Judges.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're having a
13 difficult time reading this text?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't really see it right.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in, maybe?
16 The Registrar is telling me that it cannot be made any bigger.
17 The text cannot be made any bigger, unfortunately. If you can't read any
18 more, it's okay.
19 Mr. Prosecutor, could you please ask a question from the quoting
20 of the text, and maybe he will say "yes" or "no" or "I don't know."
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have an objection.
22 Because the Prosecutor asked for this section to be read, then I do
23 insist that all of it be read out because if the witness paused right now
24 when the most important thing was supposed to be read out, then the
25 public will be denied the most important part. It has to do with my
1 statement, my speech, my answer to the journalist's question.
2 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I have a hard-copy version that maybe we can try
3 with it.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that in such situations,
5 even the court officer who speaks the Serbian language can read it out.
6 Why make a witness read when it's hard for him to read?
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you have the text in
8 hard copy. Can you read it? If you can't read it, tell me.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot. I cannot read it. The
10 print is very small.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let me ask my
12 fellow Judges whether Mr. Seselj should read it out loud.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The best solution would be for
15 the interpreters to read the text, since it's on the screen, and they
16 could site-translate it. Is it possible?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Someone has to read out the text in the
18 original for the interpreters to be able to interpret. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. Obviously, it's too tall
20 an order for anyone.
21 MR. MUSSEMEYER: We might give a hard copy to the interpreters if
22 it's easier for them to read.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, could you please
24 get the hard copy from the OTP and bring it to the interpreter's booth,
25 French and English.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that means that the text
2 will be read out in Serbian and will then be interpreted into your
3 language, Judges.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that according to the
5 Rules, someone in the courtroom should read out the text, and then the
6 booths can interpret it into the respective languages. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the interpreter read it
8 in Serbian, and the French and English interpreters will then translate
10 It seems to be very difficult.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, it seems that it is
14 Well, Mr. Prosecutor, you should have thought of it earlier.
15 During the proofing session, you should have checked your witness's
16 glasses. Obviously, this is an impossibility.
17 MR. MUSSEMEYER: We did this, and he could read because the light
18 was better.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's nothing we can do now.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, now the interpreters
21 have a copy of this text. If I read it, then they can check whether I'm
22 reading it right, and then they can tell you because I assume that before
23 you did not trust me to read it properly, but now you do have someone who
24 can do the check for you.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since the interpreters have the
1 hard copy, please read the excerpt in your own language, Mr. Seselj.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm reading after the witness read
3 it, right?
4 "In the famous Hrtkovci blown out of proportion in the media that
5 have been portrayed as crown evidence of our alleged tortures, there were
6 no killings on ethnic grounds. There was a killing out of avarice. It
7 so happened that the victim was a Croat, but the killers were apprehended
8 and will be held responsible. It is true that some people did move out
9 of the village, but Croats did it of their own free will. No one forced
10 them to do that, let alone members of our party. Of their own free will,
11 voluntarily, they exchanged properties and houses with Serbs from
13 Church, usually they fared better. However, Hrtkovci continues to be
14 used as proof," quote/unquote --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.
16 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I only wanted to have the witness read the
17 paragraph which Mr. Seselj finished some sentences ago, not the next one.
18 That was my intention. If he wants to continue, it's not -- I wouldn't
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think these two sentences at the
21 end are very important, but then whatever you decide.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Read those two sentences.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "However, Hrtkovci continues to be
24 used as proof" - and "proof" is under quotation marks - "that even in the
25 territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, there was ethnic
1 cleansing. This is contributed to by many of our traitors who are
2 wandering around the world politically prostituting themselves and lying
3 in accordance with the orders issued by their wealthy masters, the
4 builders of a new world order."
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seselj, for
6 having read this out.
7 Mr. Prosecutor, could you please put your question to the
9 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
10 Q. Mr. Baricevic, was it your experience -- is it correct what
11 Mr. Seselj said in this article, that no Croats have been forced to leave
12 Hrtkovci, especially not from SRS
13 A. That is not the absolute truth.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you are one of the -- you
15 were one of the witnesses who actually signed an exchange of houses. You
16 told us that you had a brick house, another house that had been built in
17 1953, so your personal case is very interesting for us because you signed
18 the contract at an attorney-at-law, Ms. Primorac. How did you manage to
19 go to this attorney-at-law? Did you go on your own volition, or did
20 someone tell you, "Go see Primorac"? Tell us exactly how this happened.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. The house was a
22 newly-built one in 1983, in 1983. The old one was built in 1953.
23 As for this house, for which I got the address, and I went to
24 that address, actually --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who gave you this address,
1 Primorac's address?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already mentioned that
3 Spasojevic came to Grizelj's house. Spasojevic was from Jaksic, and he
4 immediately chose the house and gave me an address for Branko
5 Milosavljevic, and I exchanged houses with him because that is what was
6 said at the rally, that Croats would get addresses of Serbs from Croatia
7 I got this address, and I went there after I had already transferred my
8 wife and children to Croatia
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is not extremely clear. A
10 person called Spasojevic came to Grizelj's house, and Spasojevic came
11 from Jaksic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And he gave you the address of
14 Branko Milosavljevic's house, who is the person that you were going to
15 exchange houses with; is that it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely, because they were
17 neighbours. Their houses were about 150 metres away from each other.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you hadn't wanted to do
19 this, could you have said, "I'm not interested, I'd rather stay here"?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were all sorts of threats and
21 tortures every day. I had already moved my children out so that they
22 could stay alive, my wife, too. I had to choose the best option out of
23 many bad ones.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Then you go to the
25 attorney-at-law, Primorac, to sign the contract. Who gave you the
1 address of this attorney? Who told you to go see Primorac?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I addressed the owner
3 of the house, Branko Milosavljevic. Then we went to see the lawyer, the
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And the lawyer
6 prepared all the papers?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had already prepared all the
8 documentation. I took what they gave me so that I could live in peace.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The new house that
10 you obtained, was it better or worse than the house you had before?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry. We don't seem to be
12 understanding each other. That house had been old and torched.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You lost in this deal. You had
14 a good house, and you obtained a burnt, old house. You were tricked?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I lost my house that had been
16 totally new. For the building of a house, you need two generations to be
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I understand now.
19 Mr. Prosecutor, you may proceed.
20 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
21 Q. Mr. Baricevic, do you know if the Catholic Church was involved in
22 this exchange of property?
23 A. As far as I know, the Catholic Church did not take part in the
24 exchange of properties in any way. People, Catholics, went to get
25 certificates of baptism and of marriages to prove that they are Croat
1 Catholics in order to regulate their papers and documentation for the
2 future, in terms of future documents, that is.
3 Q. Mr. Baricevic, one last question. At the beginning of your
4 testimony, you told us that about 75 per cent of the inhabitants of
5 Hrtkovci were Croats. Do you know the percentage of Croats who live
6 today in Hrtkovci?
7 A. I don't know what the percentage is, but I do know that 460
8 households moved out of Hrtkovci. I know that within one month's time
9 after the rally, 300 households had moved out.
10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Thank you, Mr. Baricevic. I have no further
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One follow-up question after
13 this last question by the Prosecutor.
14 Let me come back to this article by Branislav Gulan in "Borba."
15 In this article - you'll have to look at it; you can trust me - he says
16 that there are 20 different ethnicities in this village. This was a very
17 composite village, and he says that were 1.079 Croats, 558 Serbs, 516
18 Hungarians, 452 Yugoslavs, 4 Macedonians, and some Slovaks, Russians,
19 Albanians, Montenegrins and Romas. When looking at all these figures, we
20 note that the Serbs are in a minority, 558 Serbs. Maybe there were Serbs
21 among the Yugoslavs, so the figure for Serbs might be a bit higher, but
22 Croats and Hungarians were in a majority.
23 Now, after all these flats were exchanged, should we understand
24 that the majority of Croats had left?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, most Croats had moved out of
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. You were a victim in
3 this house exchange because you obtained an old, burnt house and whereas
4 to build a nice house it takes at least two generations. And your own
5 house had been built in the 1980s. So you'd been had in this exchange;
6 you lost.
7 Now, eventually, did you get any compensation, or did you lose
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never got any compensation. The
10 only thing I managed to do was, with the assistance of two witnesses or
11 two guarantors, rather, to get a small loan to build up the house.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's all.
13 So you were swindled. You lost in this exchange, obviously.
14 Mr. Prosecutor.
15 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I would like to move the last article from
16 Mr. Seselj's book where we read from into evidence.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's give it a
18 number. Mr. Registrar.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, please, it is very
20 important for the Prosecutor to say what year this book was published.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The article published in
22 Mr. Seselj's book, could you tell us exactly, what is the date for this
24 MR. MUSSEMEYER: According to my information, the date is 1994,
25 and it was published in Belgrade
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 1994, Belgrade. Very well.
2 My fellow Judge has a question.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, do you know anything
4 about the murder of Milan Stefanac, or did this happen after you had
5 left? Do you know anything about this?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about this. It happened
7 after I had left. I heard about the killing of Milan Stefanac and that
8 he was found in the neighbouring village. I don't know about the
9 details. I don't know anything.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 01976 will be
13 Exhibit number P562.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It would probably be good to
15 have the break right now. We will resume around 20 to 6.00, and
16 Mr. Seselj can then start his cross-examination. It's best to proceed
17 this way.
18 Let's break for 20 minutes.
19 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Court is back in session.
22 Mr. Seselj, you have the floor for your cross-examination.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Baricevic, when you came to Slavonska Pozega
25 in May 1992 and later on, did you talk at all with the Croatian police or
1 any other state services of the Croatian state?
2 A. When I came to Croatia
3 and I don't see what you're driving at when you talk about interviews or
5 Q. Well, you can't really see that. You're not supposed to see
6 that. You're supposed to answer my question.
7 A. No, I have not talked to anyone.
8 Q. So you did not talk to anyone, to the secret service or any other
9 state organs?
10 A. No, no.
11 Q. In the 16 years, you never gave any statements about what
12 happened to you in Hrtkovci, as you allege, to any of the Croatian
13 authorities? That's what I mean.
14 A. Well, that's not the secret police.
15 Q. What is it, then?
16 A. That's the court.
17 Q. Which court?
18 A. The Military Prosecutor's Office in Osijek.
19 Q. And when did you give a statement to them?
20 A. I can't recall the exact date, but it was sometime in 1994, let's
22 Q. And what did you say in that statement of yours?
23 A. The same things that I stated here.
24 Q. Everything?
25 A. Yes, everything.
1 Q. And what did the Military Prosecutor's Office in Osijek
2 do? What was it that they were investigating?
3 A. I don't know. I have no idea.
4 Q. Well, how come, then, that they summoned you in 1994? Did you go
5 to Osijek
6 A. No, they came to my place.
7 Q. To Slavonska Pozega? To Jaksic, which is a suburb of
8 Slavonska Pozega?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who came to see you?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. How many people came to see you?
13 A. Two.
14 Q. Were they in uniform?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So they were in plain clothes. What did they tell you, then?
17 A. They asked me the same questions that the Prosecutor asked me
19 Q. About everything that allegedly happened to you in Hrtkovci; is
20 that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did they put together a statement on the basis of that
23 interview? Did they tape the interview?
24 A. I don't know. I didn't see them make any recordings.
25 Q. But did they put together a statement that you signed?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did they just take notes, then?
3 A. Well, they did write down something, but I don't know what that
5 Q. Did you have any other interviews with any other state organs?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So that was the only one?
8 A. Not with the Croatian state organs.
9 Q. And how did you get in contact with the OTP?
10 A. Well, they came to see me.
11 Q. To Slavonska Pozega?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What did they tell you?
14 A. They asked me how I -- what the situation was like down there,
15 and I told them the same thing that I told you now.
16 Q. What year was that?
17 A. Well, that was five or six years ago.
18 Q. How many times did you talk to the investigators from The Hague
19 A. Well, I don't know. Just a few.
20 Q. What does it mean, "just a few"? One, two?
21 A. Two, two.
22 Q. In what year?
23 A. Last year.
24 Q. Did you sign any statements last year?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I did not receive the
2 statement that this witness provided to the investigators of the OTP last
3 year. I think that this is such a major issue that it actually renders
4 my cross-examination pointless. I only have the statement that he gave
5 in the year 2002.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's try and understand what
7 this is about.
8 Witness, we don't have it. Last year, did you give the OTP a new
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. That's the only statement.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you answered Mr. Seselj,
12 you said, "Yes." Mr. Seselj asked you whether there was one or two, and
13 you said, "Two." And Mr. Seselj said, "In what year?" And you said,
14 "Last year."
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One statement was given to the
16 Tribunal in The Hague
17 Military Prosecutor's Office. They came to see me.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's a statement which
19 you've signed, since we have it, dated 28th of September, 2002, given to
20 the Prosecution. Was there another statement, or wasn't there one made
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the only one.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
24 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
25 Q. What happened last year, then?
1 A. Last year, an investigator came to see me, but it was just to
2 talk to me.
3 Q. And what did he want from you in this conversation?
4 A. To confirm the statement that I had given.
5 Q. And did you confirm it?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Did you sign anything at that time?
8 A. No.
9 Q. How could you then confirm it? Orally?
10 A. Well, I read the statement.
11 Q. But did you sign it once you'd read it?
12 A. Well, it had already been signed.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Judge, you can see that I am
14 right. The Prosecution has to have a record of this interview or
15 conversation that took place last year. There has to be a note or a
16 record of it.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you had this conversation
18 last year with the investigator, did he give you his name? Who was it?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paulo.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He's Italian?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He showed you something. Did
23 he make you sign something or not?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he did not ask anything of the
25 sort. He just gave me the statement to read. It had been translated
1 into Croatian, so I was to read it. I didn't sign anything.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You read the 2002 statement,
3 the only statement?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only statement.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer or Ms. Dahl, the
6 investigator, Paolo Stocchi, did he prepare a report, or was it
8 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I'm not aware that he prepared a report. I'm
9 pretty sure that he did this, but if I may help to find out of this
11 According to my records, there exists one statement the witness
12 gave. You mentioned it already, on the 27th or 28th of September, 2002.
13 And we have a 92 bis package where the witness signed more or less again
14 the same statement that is dated the 1st of December, 2005. It's a
15 92 ter -- 92 bis package, and let me -- it's in -- completely in the
16 Serbian or Croatian language, and it was given before the presiding
17 officer, Marco Bonavello [phoen] on the 1st of December, 2005.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This 92 bis statement was for
19 which trial ?
20 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Let me check this. I have it here. I guess
21 it's for the trial against Mr. Seselj.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, you had
23 contemplated using a 92 bis statement.
24 Mr. Seselj, you've got your answer.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Mussemeyer now
1 said that this statement from 2005 is more or less the same as the 2002
2 statement. I'm interested in both more and in less. I'm not interested
3 in the same at all.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If there is a 2005 statement,
5 Mr. Seselj should be made aware of it, more or less. If it's more, then
6 it is against him. Otherwise, it's exculpatory. Whatever the case may
7 be, he should have been given the statement. What happened, again?
8 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I cannot tell you at the moment if it hasn't
9 been disclosed. I'm pretty sure that it has. I can read what is said
10 here, that:
11 "The attached statement, dated the 27th-28th of September, 2002,
12 and certified by the undersigned on 1st December, 2005, the said witness
13 is identified as the author."
14 This is the normal 92 bis procedure which was done at that time
15 before the Rules changed, but I will check if this has been disclosed to
16 Mr. Seselj.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.
19 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Baricevic, did you talk to the investigators in The Hague
22 A. In 1995, well, I can't really remember what time it was, but as
23 far as statements are concerned, I only gave one statement.
24 Q. When you say "Rujan," that's the Croatian term for "September"?
25 A. Well, "September."
1 Q. So the term "Rujan," what month would that be?
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. Perhaps the
3 Prosecutor has something to say.
4 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I found the disclosure date of this 92 bis
5 package. It's the ERN number 0465-6571 to 6580, and that was disclosed
6 to Mr. Seselj on the 10th of July, 2006. And the receipt was number 23,
7 and I think Mr. Seselj signed it. I have to check this.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, it seems that this
9 has been disclosed to you on the 10th of July, 2006. The receipt
10 number is number 23.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I received this
12 disclosure, the 2002 statement, twice. It was retyped in the meantime,
13 but there is the same year indicated on both, 2002. There is no mention
14 of 2005 or 2006. And now the Prosecution has to prove that it disclosed
15 this to me. So I do have two statements. The text is identical.
16 Different typewriters, but the same date, the 27th and the 28th of
17 September, 2002.
18 Q. Mr. Baricevic, I asked you whether in 1995 you provided any
19 statements to the investigators from The Hague.
20 A. Well, I've already replied. I can't recall what the year was,
21 but that was the only statement that I gave to the investigators of the
22 Tribunal in The Hague
23 Q. I have a document from the Prosecution. The number is 0307-3665,
24 where it says that a translator of the OTP confirms that on the 28th of
25 September, 1995, that she interpreted a conversation, an interview with
1 you. The date is 1995, yet I never received any statement -- any record
2 of it. But I do have this document that was disclosed by mistake to me.
3 Let me repeat the number if you want me to.
4 So it's 1995, an interview was conducted with you. I have only
5 one piece of written evidence to prove it. It is a confirmation, a
6 certificate by the interpreter, indicating that she interpreted that
7 interview for you.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, don't you think
9 there might be a mistake as far as the date is concerned? The 28th of
10 September, 1995, or the 28th of September, 2002? Maybe it's one and the
11 same thing.
12 Witness, you must tell the truth. Mr. Seselj is working a lot,
13 sees all the details, and nothing escapes him. He has a document before
14 him. He gives us ERN number 0307-3665, which seems to indicate that the
15 interpreter from the OTP purportedly said something concerning one
16 Croatian word, "ulan." I'm not quite sure what it is. So my question is
17 very simple.
18 In 1995, i.e., a very short time after the events which took
19 place in 1992, did you meet an investigator from the OTP, or did you only
20 meet him in 2002?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met up with the investigators,
22 and when I made my statement, that was the only statement that I ever
23 gave to investigators, just this one statement. I can't remember dates
24 now, when it was that this actually happened, but it was only one
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Mussemeyer.
2 MR. MUSSEMEYER: This investigator certification which the
3 accused is referring to belongs to the 92 bis package from 2005. It has
4 the same ERN number, 0307 and then 3665, which the accused was quoting
5 from. There must be a mistake on the date. It's, in fact -- it says the
6 28th of -- I don't know the English name of the month, but from --
7 September 1995. But what the accused omitted is that there is a second
8 ERN number on the same page, which has the number 0465-6579, and it
9 contains the 92 bis package from December. So there is a mistake in the
10 date, but in fact it has been disclosed, and it's also proof that this
11 92 ter -- 92 bis package has been disclosed to Mr. Seselj.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for this
14 Witness, you only saw the investigators for your statement in
15 2002 and not in 1995.
16 Mr. Seselj, please proceed.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Mr. President, he saw
18 Paolo Pastore-Stocchi in 2005, as well, or last year as he said a few
19 moments ago; the witness, I mean. What remains unclear is what happened
20 in 1995. If this is a mistake and if an OTP typist can make that kind of
21 a mistake, instead of typing out "2002," type out "1995," then I really
22 don't know what kind of psychologist could explain that kind of error, or
23 typing "2005" instead of "2002" or "2008." However, that might be
24 possible. However, if somebody lives in 2002 and types out "1995,"
25 that's a mistake that's impossible, or perhaps it may happen. Maybe
1 there's some new diseases that came up in the world now. I've been in
2 prison for a long time, so perhaps there is these new illnesses that have
3 cropped up behind the prison walls.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the time being, the
5 Prosecution is saying that it must be a typo. "1995" was typed in
6 instead of "2002." That is the explanation provided by the Prosecution.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. When you talked to these investigators from The Hague in 2002,
10 you talked to Paolo Pastore-Stocchi; isn't that right?
11 A. I did talk to him, but I don't know what the year was.
12 Q. Did you talk to him both times or only once?
13 A. I talked to him twice. However, I don't remember dates.
14 Q. All right. You talked to him twice?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you say to him that at the rally in Hrtkovci, I asked for all
17 children from mixed marriages to be killed, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You said that to him?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And when you said that to him, what was his reaction? I'm really
22 interested in that. Was he surprised?
23 A. Well, I don't know whether he was surprised, but that's the way
24 it was written down.
25 Q. Did he just listen to you calmly and then write -- and then he
1 wrote up this statement, and you signed it without a comment of any kind?
2 A. Well, I signed the statement.
3 Q. Without him asking you anything in relation to that?
4 A. Well, we talked. I don't know about the details. I don't know
5 about individual details.
6 Q. All right. If you don't know, you don't know. I can understand
7 that as age advances, people start losing their memory and various
8 processes start in people's heads, but when did you come to The Hague
9 testify now?
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. A follow-up
12 The question put to you by Mr. Seselj is extremely important. On
13 the 27th and 28th of September, 2002, you meet the investigator of the
14 OTP, and you talk to him, and the conversation lasts for how long? How
15 many hours? Do you remember?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We met twice, two days, eight or
17 nine hours both times.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you told him a lot of
19 things, and then he prepared your statement, which you signed and which
20 was read back to you in your language. This is what is written in the
22 When you talked to the investigator, did you tell him, "I
23 remember that Mr. Seselj in his speech said that children born from mixed
24 marriages should be killed," and he said that again, or you said that
25 Mr. Seselj talked about mixed marriages, and you didn't say that the
1 children should be killed? What did you tell the investigator,
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to repeat what
4 it was that I had said. He had said that mixed marriages should be
5 divorced and that the children should be killed.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj said that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I heard.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you said that to the
9 investigator, who translated that.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. When did you come here to The Hague to testify in these
14 A. I came on Sunday.
15 Q. It's Tuesday today, right? So you've been here for two days?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How many conversations did you have with the representatives of
18 the OTP over those two days?
19 A. One.
20 Q. Did you go through your entire statement?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you came to this section where you claim that I had stated
23 at the rally that all children from mixed marriages should be killed, did
24 the representative of the OTP caution you that you should perhaps give
25 this some thought, whether that is what actually happened?
1 A. They asked me whether you said that.
2 Q. And you confirmed?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then they kept silent about it?
5 A. They said, "Well, if that's the way it is, then let's move on."
6 Q. So that was this very brief conversation that you had, and that's
7 how it ended?
8 A. Well, yes.
9 Q. Thank you. You said that the tensions in Hrtkovci started at the
10 time of Milosevic's rallies in the 1980s, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What you call Milosevic's rallies were actually the rallies of
13 the Kosovo Serbs, right?
14 A. Well, I don't know whose they were, these rallies, but these
15 rallies were held from Kosovo to Vojvodina. They were Milosevic's.
16 Q. Says who?
17 A. Well, that's what people said, that they were Milosevic's
19 Q. Were these rallies that were led by people from Kosovo, like
20 Kosta Bulatovic, Miroslav Solevic, and many others, Milorad Albijanic and
21 so on? I can't even remember them all now.
22 A. Well, I didn't say -- well, I've already said that I did not deal
23 in politics, and I really couldn't say who it was that was in charge of
24 these rallies.
25 Q. Did Kosovo Serbs consider themselves highly jeopardised by the
1 Albanian separatists?
2 A. Well, I was not in Kosovo, and I wouldn't really -- I mean, well,
3 I wouldn't comment on that.
4 Q. What's the reason for you to be so restless about these rallies?
5 Did anybody mention Croats at these rallies?
6 A. I stated clearly that individuals at the time -- well, I mean,
7 let me put this in a simpler way. Their heads were raised.
8 Q. What individuals?
9 A. Individuals in the village.
10 Q. How did they raise their heads?
11 A. Well, they wore Chetnik caps, and they shouted, "This is Serbia
12 this is not Croatia
13 provocations started.
14 Q. Why were you bothered by the Chetnik caps? These are traditional
15 Serbian caps, traditional Serbian insignia, the Serb coat of arms.
16 A. Well, I said that this was a calm, peaceful village of
17 hardworking people who were not interested in politics. They were only
18 interested in working and working yet again.
19 Q. If somebody chants, "Serbia
20 does that bother you? Hrtkovci has always been Serbia, right?
21 A. Well, nothing bothers me.
22 Q. Why would somebody say, "This is not Croatia" when everybody knew
23 that it was not Serbia
25 A. Well, I did not say that it was Croatia or that it was Serbia
1 minded my own business, and I worked honestly in that village where I
3 Q. I'm not interested in what it was that you were doing. How come
4 you made this statement - that's what I'm interested in - that the
5 tensions started from Milosevic's rallies? And you are not in a position
6 to state that to me, and you did state that. How come?
7 A. Well, I've explained that these were individuals and that they
8 started a bit --
9 Q. What?
10 A. Well, a bit of unrest in the village.
11 Q. What kind of unrest?
12 A. Well, I've already explained that some people, I mean -- well,
13 wore caps and sang songs, and that is what caused unrest among the
15 Q. Why would songs bother you or cause unrest? Were Croats referred
16 to in these songs?
17 A. Well, I don't know if they were.
18 Q. So why would that disturb you, Serb patriotic songs? Why would
19 that disturb you?
20 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know whether these Serb songs were
21 patriotic or whatever, but I said once, and I repeat again, that that is
22 when unrest started.
23 Q. But you cannot explain to me what kind of unrest this was. How
24 was that reflected?
25 A. Well, I've told you.
1 Q. Somebody sang a song or wore a Serb coat of arms on his cockade?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So what's strange about that, and what is disturbing about that?
4 We are ridding ourselves of communism. We are renewing old Serb
5 traditions. Are you sorry that we've rid ourselves of communism? And
6 you did not leave the League of Communists in 1980 when Tito died. It
7 was only in 1990 when the League of Communists fell apart, right?
8 A. No, no, when Tito died.
9 Q. Who did you return your membership card to?
10 A. I left it at the premises of the local commune.
11 Q. What does the local commune have to do with the League of
13 A. The party secretary came there.
14 Q. Why did you go on paying membership fees?
15 A. I didn't.
16 Q. But the records say that you did. Well, all right.
17 You say in your statement, the one that you signed, that in 1990
18 the Serbian Renewal Movement and the Serb Radical Party, led by
19 Vuk Draskovic, or rather, Vojislav Seselj, opened their branches in
20 Hrtkovci. That is on page 2 of your statement, paragraph 4?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How come in 1990 when the Serb Radical Party did not even exist
24 A. I know that people were signing up. I don't know if it existed
25 or not, but people were signing up.
1 Q. How can people sign up into a party that doesn't exist?
2 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know.
3 Q. It is possible, but it's hard to explain, right?
4 A. No, no. You should ask them.
5 Q. Who is "them"?
6 A. These members.
7 Q. How can I ask them when they did not exist in 1990, when it did
8 not exist at the time, and you claim that they signed up then and that
9 the Serb Radical Party opened its branch in Hrtkovci, and the Serb
10 Radical Party was established on the 23rd of February, 1991
11 that a year before that, it had its branch in Hrtkovci and the people
12 were signing up?
13 A. Well, perhaps I got the date wrong.
14 Q. All right. Maybe you got the date wrong, but you have been
15 making way too many mistakes. You say that Ostoja Sibincic was president
16 of the local SPO
17 Serb Radical Party, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Aleksa Ejic was never a member of the Serb Radical Party.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.
21 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, we gave or disclosed to Mr. Seselj
22 proofing notes where we were correcting this. When Mr. Baricevic was
23 proofed, he realised this mistake, and this has been disclosed to
24 Mr. Seselj last week. So he shouldn't insist on this. He knows that he
25 has corrected himself and shouldn't try to confuse the witness. He knows
1 about this.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj, the
3 Prosecutor told you that the witness had made -- had confused things.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, what should I
5 care about what the Prosecutor notified me or not? I am trying to find
6 chinks in the armour in the testimony of this witness here and in his
7 previous statement. And as far as the information about the proofing
8 session is concerned, that's not something that I can rely on. Of
9 course, I can rely on it if there are any weaknesses there, but now the
10 fact that the Prosecutor is trying to fix the mistakes that the witness
11 has made, that's of no concern to me. You can see that the witness was
12 wrong about the year when the SRS
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There was a mistake, and the
14 witness has recognised it. However, you were putting a very important
15 question on Ostoja Sibincic, so please proceed.
16 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
17 Q. How can you say that Aleksa Ejic was the president of the local
18 branch of the Serb Radical Party when he never was a member of the Serb
19 Radical Party? The whole of Hrtkovci knows that, and Aleksa Ejic
20 confirmed that when he came here to testify before you.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
22 MR. MUSSEMEYER: It's, again, the same. This has been corrected
23 in the proofing notes. It has been disclosed to Mr. Seselj. If you want
24 to, I can read what has been clarified, and I think Mr. Seselj shouldn't
25 use this any longer because it's not correct.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, this is not the way that the
2 witness's statement can be corrected. The witness confirmed now that
3 Aleksa Ejic was the president of the Serbian Radical Party. He confirmed
4 that here and now in front of you, and it is obvious that this witness
5 was turned into a tool, but he is unable to fulfill his task, to
6 accomplish his task. And please do not allow the Prosecutor to interrupt
7 my cross-examination in this manner because the witness confirmed here in
8 front of all that Aleksa Ejic was the president of the local branch of
9 the Serbian Radical Party.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, I thought I
11 understand, when you started your -- the beginning of the in-chief, that
12 Mr. Aleksa Ejic had these political functions, but obviously it seems
13 that during the proofing, he was also wrong? He also made a mistake?
14 MR. MUSSEMEYER: What I can read to you -- the proofing notes are
15 very short. It says --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please proceed. Do
18 MR. MUSSEMEYER: The ICTY statement, page 2, submitted on 27th
19 and 28th September, 2002. Baricevic stated that Aco Ejic was the
20 president of the SRS
21 stated that Ejic was the president of the local SPO --"
22 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is kindly asked to slow down when
24 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Excuse me.
25 "During the proofing, Baricevic stated that Ejic was the
1 president of the local SPO
2 during the proofing, Baricevic said that what he said in the ICTY
3 statement about Ejic being president of the SRS in Hrtkovci was a
4 mistake. Baricevic confirmed that there was no SRS office in Hrtkovci,
5 at least until Baricevic left Hrtkovci."
6 And there's a second paragraph. It says:
7 "During the proofing, Baricevic stated that Ostoja Sibincic was
8 working together with the Radicals in Hrtkovci. In the ICTY statement,
9 page 2, Baricevic stated that in 1991, Sibincic was an active member of
10 the SRS
11 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is kindly asked to slow down for
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, will I be cross-examining
14 Mr. Mussemeyer as the representative of the Prosecution?
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please let Mr. Mussemeyer
16 finish reading this note that he sent to you. I had no knowledge of it,
17 so please continue. There was -- what was it after "Baricevic does not
19 MR. MUSSEMEYER: "Baricevic does not actually know whether
20 Sibincic was officially a member of the SRS or whether he was only
21 hanging around with SRS
22 These are the proofing notes which we have disclosed to the
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It was important to
25 know this.
1 Mr. Seselj.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is much more important to note
3 that today, in his examination-in-chief, this witness here in front of
4 you, you had that in the transcript, stated that Aleksa Ejic founded the
5 Serbian Radical Party and that Ostoja Sibincic founded the Serbian
6 Renewal Movement in Hrtkovci. You can see that in his
7 examination-in-chief. Please, refer yourselves to the transcript.
8 What do I care what it says in the proofing session notes
9 prepared by the Prosecution? The witness confirmed today in the
10 courtroom that Aleksa Ejic founded the Serbian Radical Party in Hrtkovci.
11 And as for what is written there, well, the Prosecution was amazed when
12 they realised whom they brought here to testify, and that is why now
13 they're showing this information based on the proofing notes. I'm not
14 interested in that. I'm interested in what the witness said in the
15 examination-in-chief where he said, and then he confirmed it on cross,
16 that Aleksa Ejic founded the Serbian Radical Party in Hrtkovci. That's
17 what the witness said in the examination-in-chief and on cross, and now
18 the Prosecution is trying to correct the witness. Well, this really
19 cannot be. This is impermissible.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 Witness, in the examination-in-chief, you said that Aleksa Ejic
22 had created the Serbian Radical Party in Hrtkovci. I remember that. It
23 now seems that you had corrected this during the proofing session. So
24 why is it that when you answered Mr. Mussemeyer's question early this
25 afternoon, you said something that you had corrected earlier? I can't
1 reconcile this.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I may have been
3 wrong, but I always thought that Ostoja Sibincic was a member of the
4 Serbian Radical Party. I did mention Aco Ejic here once, but I kept
5 saying that Ostoja was a member of the Radical Party.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now I have two questions for
7 you. I would like to know whether Mr. Aleksa Ejic set up the Serbian
8 Radical Party in your village.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for a time he was the
10 president, but later on he withdrew. Since his wife was Hungarian, he
11 realised that no good could come out of this, and that's why he withdrew.
12 He was not active.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A second question, now.
14 Ostoja Sibincic, was he a member of the Serbian Radical Party?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He says that he was a member. I
16 did not see his membership card.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, the witness again denied
18 what is contained in the proofing notes. He repeated once again. When
19 you, Mr. President, asked him, he confirmed that Aleksa Ejic was the
20 president of the Serbian Radical Party in Hrtkovci, so the information
21 contained in the proofing notes is a forgery. It's a fabrication. It
22 misrepresents what the witness stated here in a courtroom in the
23 examination-in-chief, on cross, and in response to the Judges' questions.
24 So now we can see what the Prosecution is doing in the proofing sessions,
25 what it makes use of.
1 Should I continue, then?
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed.
3 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You said that as early as in 1991, a group of 160 refugees had
5 come from Slavonia
7 A. Yes, 160 refugees came.
8 Q. And you said that the local commune provided housing for the
9 refugees, and that provided them with stoves, food, things of that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where did the local commune find housing for them?
13 A. In the various houses. If somebody had two houses, if somebody's
14 parents died, then they were put in older houses.
15 Q. In the houses where nobody lived?
16 A. Yes, for a while.
17 Q. And you also provided them with houses of people who had not
18 lived in Hrtkovci for a long time, but they gave their approval for their
19 houses to be used in this manner? You spoke to them on the phone, and
20 they gave their approval?
21 A. I think there was only one such house.
22 Q. Well, there were several, but you don't have to recall every
23 single detail. It is important for me to confirm that this kind of thing
24 happened. And then the refugees who started to move into the empty
25 houses started entering some of the empty houses without asking anyone
1 because they didn't want to keep their wives, their children out in the
2 rain; they needed to find a roof to put over their heads?
3 A. Well, they moved in by force. They broke into houses.
4 Q. Into empty houses?
5 A. No, not into empty houses.
6 Q. Well, they were furnished?
7 A. Yes, furnished, appliances.
8 Q. They were empty in terms of the inhabitants? Nobody lived in
9 them. That's what I meant. Is that so? But what do you mean if -- what
10 do you think, if somebody flees from Croatia because he's faced with
11 threats that his family would be killed, and this person comes to Serbia
12 with his wife and children, and he sees an empty house, nobody had lived
13 there for years; do you think that this person would really care about
14 laws and would not move into this house but would rather keep the wife
15 and the children in the forest somewhere? What's more logical than for
16 such a person to get into an empty apartment or house and to live there
17 until he is expelled?
18 A. I don't think so.
19 Q. You don't think so. You stated here that Sibincic transferred in
20 late 1991 to the Serbian Radical Party, and when the Judges asked you,
21 you said that in May 1992, you don't know whether he was formally a
22 member of the Serbian Radical Party; is that right?
23 A. No, that's not so.
24 Q. It is so.
25 A. I said that I never saw his membership card.
1 Q. So how did you know that he joined the Serbian Radical Party at
3 A. Well, how did I know? I knew because the people talked that the
4 Radicals -- that they are Radicals and that he was their chief.
5 Q. The chief of the Radicals. And what happened with Milan Zilic,
6 the Radical who founded the party in Hrtkovci? He was the chairman of
7 the local board.
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. So although there was a living president of the Serbian Radical
10 Party, Milan Zilic, you invent some other presidents?
11 A. I know that all the dirty work was done by Ostoja Sibincic and
12 that he represented himself as the president of the Radical Party.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we know that you were
14 a member of the League of Communists. We know that you also had some
15 municipal duties for some while, for some time. You seem to be a person
16 that is able to understand things. If what you're saying is true, if it
17 is true that Mr. Ostoja Sibincic was the president of the Serbian Radical
18 Party in Hrtkovci, then Mr. Seselj comes to deliver his speech on May
19 6th; he should be on the stage to say, "Brothers and sisters of Serbia
20 let me introduce Mr. Seselj, who's going to speak to you," but it is Ilic
21 instead that takes the floor to introduce Seselj. How can you explain
22 that? How can you explain that the president of the Serbian Radical
23 Party is not on the stage when Mr. Seselj is coming, and there are two
24 people that are there to prepare for his entrance, you know, Mr. Zilic
25 and this lady, Mr. Seselj being the third, and we have no mention of
1 Sibincic at all on stage? Do you find this normal?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, well, I don't know.
3 The only thing that I do know is that Ostoja Sibincic was in charge of
4 the people. He gave them the addresses. He led the Radicals. Now, as
5 to the actual functions, who was the secretary, who was the treasurer,
6 who was really in charge, I don't know that because I was not a member of
7 that party. But the one thing that I know is I know the people who
8 instructed other people to cause this kind of misery in the village.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, proceed.
10 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Well, in 1991, did the Serb refugees from Croatia come only to
12 Hrtkovci, or did they go all over Serbia
13 A. I know only about Hrtkovci.
14 Q. You didn't leave Hrtkovci at all?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. Uh-huh. So it is your impression that the Serb refugees came
17 only to Hrtkovci; is that right?
18 A. Well, I don't know whether they went to other villages. I don't
19 know the figures, but I do know what happened in Hrtkovci.
20 Q. Did you say that up until April 1992 -- please focus. April
21 1992, that by that time there were already 500 refugees in Hrtkovci?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the problems were really great?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. It was impossible to house all those refugees; is that right?
1 A. The second wave of refugees, when they came, the local commune
2 again responded to the situation and provided temporary accommodation for
3 those people in the property of where there were beds and a kitchen and
5 Q. I would like to quote back to you what you said, that the
6 problems became very great.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the refugees became very unhappy?
9 A. Yes, because they had been promised houses.
10 Q. Who promised them houses?
11 A. I guess the Serb authorities in Croatia.
12 Q. What Serb authorities in Croatia? How could they promise them
13 houses in Serbia
14 A. Well, where the war was going on.
15 Q. I guess there were the Croatian authorities there, the ones that
16 expelled them. Why would the Serb authorities expel them? There were
17 Serb authorities in the Serbian Krajina, in Western Slavonia in this
19 A. Well, they came from Western Slavonia.
20 Q. Yes, but Grubisno Polje was in Croat hands, and then in December
21 1991, Croats took most of Western Slavonia, and Serbs had only Okocani
22 and a small section of Topokrac [phoen], so it was the Croatian
23 authorities that expelled them; is that so?
24 A. Well, I don't know who promised them houses. All I said was that
25 those people had been duped, and I'm sure that Serbs did promise them
1 that. They told them, "Go there. There are empty houses there because
2 people left to join the Ustashas, the Ustasha army."
3 Q. Yes, yes, sure. Serbs expelled Serbs just to spite you. This is
4 quite clear.
5 Now, the refugees want the problems to be solved. That's in
6 April, and you claim that they wanted me to attend the meeting of the
7 local commune where their problems would be discussed?
8 A. No, that's not what I said. I said that they wanted to meet with
9 Vojislav Seselj, not of the local commune, but for Vojislav Seselj to
10 meet with them to solve those issues.
11 Q. With the refugees?
12 A. Yes, only with the refugees.
13 Q. And what kind of an act or what kind of a player I was at that
14 time to be able to solve that problem?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Did I -- was I in power at that time?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. How many deputies did the SRS
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Only one. Does this refresh your memory? Well, you don't know
21 that. You only know what was written to you, that you have to repeat
22 like a parrot all the time, and the moment we diverge from that, you
23 start to sweat.
24 A. I don't know anything. I don't know anything.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just think about the
1 following situation: Did you know anything about the political situation
2 in Serbia
3 was happening elsewhere?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not really follow political
5 developments. I minded my own business. I know what happened in the
6 village. Now, as for the politics, that's not something that I followed.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When very unhappy refugees call
8 on Mr. Seselj, who could have been their saviour, the person who was
9 going to solve all their problems, at the time Mr. Seselj had a political
10 party that had one representative, one member of Parliament. So when it
11 seems that he didn't even agree with Mr. Milosevic on a good number of
12 subjects, how was he supposed to solve this huge problem, this huge
13 Serbian problem that was of great amplitude? Did you think about this,
14 or did just no one think about it?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, I don't know what
16 was going on in people's heads, but they demanded that Vojislav Seselj
17 come and solve their problems. I said that the first time they made this
18 demand, a woman came from Ruma and she met with them. They were unhappy,
19 and then they demanded yet again that he should come, and I guess that a
20 meeting was arranged with Seselj, and he came to Hrtkovci on the 6th of
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question. Had you
23 heard about Mr. Seselj yourself? Did you know who he was?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard and saw on TV.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And who was it? You saw him on
1 television, but what was the impression he gave you? Did he look like
2 someone who could solve all problems? Did he look like an opponent to
3 Milosevic? What impression did he convey?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I was concerned, he
5 was just a politician like every other politician. I didn't have a bad
6 opinion of anyone in the Assembly.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have a bad opinion that
9 when I watched TV.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Okay. So who was this woman in Ruma who came to attend this
12 meeting in Hrtkovci?
13 A. Well, I've already said, I don't know her name.
14 Q. Did you say that she was from the Serbian Radical Party?
15 A. Yes, that's what I said.
16 Q. And what could a woman from the Serbian Radical Party do from
17 Ruma, coming from Ruma to assist the refugees in Hrtkovci?
18 A. Well, that's why people demanded that Seselj should come.
19 Q. Divna Icitovic came from Ruma. She was the president of the Ruma
20 municipality; is that right? Did you hear her name?
21 A. No.
22 Q. How could you, an official of the local commune, not know who the
23 president of your municipality was?
24 A. Well, you said it now. I don't know who it was. I said that in
25 my statement.
1 Q. Well, I didn't know that. My investigators found that out. But
2 you had to know that because you lived in the Ruma municipality, you were
3 an official in the local commune, and by its very nature, the local
4 commune must work closely together with the municipality. And since you
5 encountered those big problems in Hrtkovci, Divna Icitovic, the president
6 of the Ruma municipality, came to Hrtkovci and tried to calm down the
7 situation, to talk to the refugees to find some kind of a solution; is
8 that so?
9 A. I don't know what it is that she talked about. I know that
10 people asked yet again to have a meeting.
11 Q. Did I come to the meeting?
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question for the
14 This lady who came from Ruma, is it the same lady as the one who
15 took part in the demonstration on May 6th, in the rally on May 6th when
16 Mr. Seselj came?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've said -- well, at this
18 first meeting when she came with the Radicals, I was not there. I don't
19 know the woman. I mean, I cannot make a comparison. Was she the one who
20 came, or was it a different person?
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you were there when
22 Mr. Seselj delivered his speech. First, Mr. Zilic took the floor. After
23 Mr. Zilic, a lady spoke. This lady is Marica Pacinin.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stated that I did not know the
25 woman's name. That's what I said in my statement.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. Seselj is telling us
2 that the lady who came from Ruma is called Divna Icitovic. She came
3 before May 6th. So before May 6th, Divna Icitovic comes to Hrtkovci, but
4 then on May 6th, we have Pacinin also. So we have two ladies coming from
5 Ruma. Is that possible, impossible, or is it the same lady?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that I was not
7 at the first meeting, so I don't know. I mean --
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know. Very well.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the witness is testifying as if
11 he did know, as if he were there, and he claims that this was a meeting
12 with the activists of the Serb Radical Party. I'd just like to draw your
13 attention to that.
14 Q. Now, hypothetically, the refugees are asking for me to come to
15 the meeting. I come and I speak at a rally. Is a rally the same thing
16 as a meeting?
17 A. No, no. That was a rally.
18 Q. Did anybody talk to me? Could anybody talk to me, or was I the
19 only one who spoke and who shook hands with people, got into a car and
20 went to Belgrade
21 A. No.
22 Q. So that wasn't a meeting, then?
23 A. Well, all right. It was a rally.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So there was no meeting.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, here, again, there's
1 something that seems very illogical. If Mr. Seselj comes at the request
2 of the unhappy Serbs that have been expelled from Croatia, then this is
3 what should happen: Mr. Seselj comes, makes a speech, and at least meets
4 those people in order to discuss their problems with them. But it seems
5 he comes by car. We had ample details on this. There was even a flat
6 tyre at one point in time, which -- you know, we know everything about
7 this arrival. He delivers a speech, and then he leaves. Obviously, he
8 did not discuss with these people, so that seems very illogical.
9 If he's coming at the request of the population because he's
10 supposed to solve all the problems, he should at least discuss with these
11 people, but he just comes in a convoy of cars with security details, and
12 then he just leaves. How can you explain this?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that he made a speech
14 and that he gave people guidelines as to what they should do. Now, when
15 he finished, I turned around and left. Now, whether he stayed on to talk
16 to people or not, that is something that I really don't know. At any
17 rate, he gave people guidelines as to what it was that they should do.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Should I go on? Right.
19 Q. When I allegedly state from the stage that all children from
20 mixed marriages should be killed, was thunderous applause heard from the
21 masses? Did I experience ovations? How did people take this statement
22 of mine, that children from mixed marriages should be killed?
23 A. I don't know how they experienced it. I know that I was
24 horrified when I heard that.
25 Q. Were there any ovations? Was there any applause?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were there a lot of women at this rally?
3 A. There were quite a few women.
4 Q. How did the women react when they heard that I was advocating the
5 killing of children from mixed marriages? Were they thrilled? Were they
6 jumping up and down with joy?
7 A. I did not ask them, and I didn't say that they were delighted. I
8 said that I was horrified.
9 Q. What did the women around you look like? Were there a lot of
10 children at the rally?
11 A. No.
12 Q. How come? At every rally, a lot of children come, especially in
13 smaller towns and villages.
14 A. There weren't any children.
15 Q. No children?
16 A. Well, a few.
17 Q. You are inventing this. There were a lot of children. Now, the
18 children who were present, there are a few of them, as you say. Were
19 they thrilled when they heard me advocating the killing of children from
20 mixed marriages?
21 A. Well, I did not talk to these children, I mean -- or with the
22 others. I mean, when I heard that, I was horrified and I went home.
23 Q. How come --
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you were horrified,
25 and everybody's horrified on hearing such things. It so happens that we
1 heard a witness who came before you. This witness came from a mixed
2 marriage. He had two children. This witness was here -- was there. He
3 heard the speech. He didn't tell us that he'd heard that. How can you
4 explain this, that he didn't hear it and that you heard it? He must have
5 been very concerned if anybody was to be concerned. Can you explain
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know how come he
8 didn't hear that and how come he didn't say so, but Judge, Your Honour,
9 that was stated at the rally.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll stop for now because I
11 need to hand down an oral decision. This may take some time.
12 The Registrar will give us the countdown and tell us how much
13 time Mr. Seselj still has to finish his cross-examination.
14 We shall see each other again, Witness, tomorrow at a quarter
15 past 2.00. So let me renew my instructions to you. You must not contact
16 anyone to discuss your testimony because your testimony is resuming
17 tomorrow. So you're going to be leaving the courtroom so that I can read
18 out the oral decision.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, at the beginning of
21 the afternoon, you talked to us about the witness's testimony who is due
22 to come after this one. I would not give his name because we have been
23 asked to give him protective measures. This concerns Witness VS-1132.
24 This is the Trial Chamber's oral decision.
25 In light of the motion filed on the 25th of September, 2008
1 admit the written statement of Milorad -- of the Witness VS-1134 on the
2 11th of September, 2008, pursuant to Rule 92 ter; considering the
3 response provided by the accused at the hearing of the 14th of October,
4 2008; given that in addition the accused on several occasions has clearly
5 indicated that he was opposed to the application of Rule 92 ter of the
6 Rules; considering that the written statement of this witness has to do
7 with the presence of volunteers' units in Vukovar as well as his own
8 presence in Ovcara -- I just need to talk to the legal officer for a few
10 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have just talked to the legal
12 officer. The name of the witness is Milorad Vosnovic [phoen]. He's not
13 coming tomorrow but on the 6th of November. That is why I needed to
14 check this. Let me resume.
15 Considering that the written statement of this witness has to do
16 with the presence of volunteers' units in Vukovar as well as his own
17 presence in Ovcara; considering that the Trial Chamber holds that this
18 statement is relevant because it relates clearly to events alleged in the
19 indictment; considering, then, with a view to being efficient and quick,
20 pursuant to Rule 92 ter, it is in the interest of justice to allow this
21 witness to come and testify before the Trial Chamber pursuant to
22 Rule 92 ter of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence for the foregoing
23 reasons: (a), the witness Milorad Vosnovic will testify on the 6th of
24 November, 2008, pursuant to Rule 92 ter of the Rules, based on his
25 statement of the 11th of September, 2008; (b), the Trial Chamber decides
1 to grant the Prosecution 30 minutes to fill in the formalities pursuant
2 to Rule 92 ter; (c), the Trial Chamber decides that the accused will have
3 one hour for the cross-examination of this witness; (d), the Trial
4 Chamber decides that the written statement dated the 11th of September,
5 2008, will only be admitted after the formal criteria contained in
6 Rule 92 ter will have been met.
7 So much for this witness who will come and testify on the 6th of
9 Before then - and this is something I need to inform you about,
10 Mr. Seselj, because this is urgent - I wanted to discuss the witness who
11 would be coming before Milorad Vosnovic.
12 This is why you're on your feet, Ms. Dahl?
13 MS. DAHL: Well, Your Honour, I'm trying to correlate pseudonyms
14 and full -- correct names of witnesses. Could we go into private session
15 for a moment, please?
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Registrar, please.
17 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I must tell you
7 that a few days ago, the OTP sent us a request, i.e., that Witness
8 Vesna Bosanac be heard pursuant to our 92 ter Rule. This motion was
9 being translated. I don't know whether this motion has been disclosed to
10 you in your language. If it hasn't been disclosed to you, let me tell
11 you that the Prosecution has got a new statement of Vesna Bosanac, and
12 the Prosecutor has asked for this witness to be heard pursuant to 92 ter.
13 That said, the Prosecutor has also allowed enough time for your
14 cross-examination. This is why this woman will be heard over a period of
15 two days.
16 The Trial Chamber would like you to tell us today what your
17 position on this is.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You know that I'm absolutely
19 opposed to the application of Rule 92 ter because this makes the trial
20 unfair and it seriously infringes upon my rights.
21 Secondly, the OTP has wasted an enormous amount of time bringing
22 in crime-base witnesses that have to do with crimes that are no longer in
23 the indictment. That is what they wasted time on, and for those
24 localities that are still in the indictment, they are asking for 92 ter.
25 Even if legally this were to be right, it would be highly irrational in
1 view of the fact that my rights are being violated. As for the
2 application of 92 ter, I don't want to discuss it. It doesn't exist for
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me tell you this: I have
5 read the 92 ter statement of this witness, Madam Vesna Bosanac, very
6 carefully. In her statement, at no point in time are you mentioned. The
7 members of the SRS
8 about what happened in the hospital which was shelled, and she will also
9 in her statement talk about everything she did. She turned to the
10 Croatian authorities, and she turned to the JNA. And then she will
11 testify about what happened when the hospital was shelled, captured. So
12 much for the content of her testimony.
13 The Trial Chamber has recorded your comments, and we will let you
14 know and tell you what our decision will be, a decision taken by the
15 entire Bench.
16 Mr. Seselj.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the situation is
18 very murky as regards Ovcara. You and your colleagues have already been
19 able to see that for yourselves. The Mrksic trial, the trial of Mrksic
20 and the others did not really cast any more light on it. Mrksic was
21 convicted only on the basis of assumptions. There is no information as
22 to who decided to take the prisoners to Ovcara, where there is this
23 record of the hand-over, what is the role of the four colonels of the
24 Security Service who were reactivated although had been retired, and
25 without any papers they were sent to Vukovar. Who decided to execute the
1 prisoners? Who kept silent for months after the execution?
2 Now, as for Colonel Milorad Vojnovic, you allowed him to testify
3 under 92 ter. He was the commander of the town that Ovcara belonged to,
4 and from the 23rd of November onwards, for several months he was the
5 commander of Vukovar. Instead of having him sitting here as an accused
6 person, he comes to testify against me according to 92 ter, against me,
7 who had no idea whatsoever of what it was that was going on over there.
8 If you think that this is the right way to proceed, well, then,
9 fine. You do that until the very end. But he comes to testify against
10 me, and his military police from his brigade was at Ovcara until the very
11 last moment, and they handed over the detainees to the people there
12 without any record. These people were executed, and he comes to testify
13 against me. That is possible too. Well, go ahead and do it that way if
14 that's what you want, but I am not going to question him if his statement
15 is admitted according to Rule 92 ter.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you are saying that
17 he's coming to testify against you. All the more reason for you to
18 cross-examine him. Under 92 ter, the Prosecution says that there is a
19 statement. I shall ask him to confirm the statement. "I would like
20 such-and-such a document to be tendered into evidence." Then you are
21 free to put your questions. If you don't put your question, I, in any
22 case, will put questions to the witness. These questions need to be put
23 in the interests of justice, and I shall do my job even if you don't say
25 So I have noted what you have said as regards this witness, and
1 the Judges will put their questions. We have the statement, and we check
2 everything, and you must have realised this by now. We're not here to
3 leave some questions unexplained. We are to determine whether you are
4 guilty or innocent, which is a huge responsibility on our shoulders, and
5 we are not entitled to make a mistake. This is why we will put our
6 questions. If you don't put the questions, we will put our questions.
7 Tomorrow, we shall resume. You shall resume your
8 cross-examination. You have, as far as this witness is concerned, one
9 hour and a half left to finish with him. At the end of your
10 cross-examination, there might be a redirect, I don't know, and then we
11 shall hear our next witness.
12 I apologise to the interpreters for having overstepped the Trial
13 Chamber's time by five minutes. I'm sure they will accept this.
14 We shall meet again at a quarter past 2.00.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of
17 October, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.