Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10591

 1                           Tuesday, 14 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please

 6     call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours.

 8             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

11             This is Tuesday, October 14th, 2008, and I welcome the

12     representatives of the OTP as well as those helping us.  I welcome

13     Mr. Seselj and everyone helping us in this courtroom.

14             Today, we will have a witness scheduled to come in the courtroom

15     soon.  Let me remind you that the Prosecution has set aside two hours for

16     examination-in-chief, unless I'm mistaken.  Defence will therefore be

17     granted two hours for the cross-examination.

18             On the last day of the week, we will have a 92 ter witness, so

19     we'll have a witness under Rule 92 ter.

20             Mr. Seselj, I believe that you have a few things to say, so you

21     have the floor quickly.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Two things, very briefly.

23             First of all, the OTP, through the prison guards, tried on Friday

24     and on Monday to deliver the very same documents to me on CD-ROM, which I

25     categorically refused.  I noticed in passing that the documents have to

Page 10592

 1     do with the expert report of Ewa Tabeau, but I don't know what the

 2     contents are.  They did that in spite of your ruling that all documents

 3     be submitted to me on paper.

 4             Secondly, you probably remember that a few times I demanded that

 5     Witness VS-1031 testifies viva voce rather than as a 92 ter witness.

 6     Yesterday, I received from the OTP yet another request to have this

 7     witness testify as a 92 ter witness.  The date is the 25th of September;

 8     of the request, that is, and it was delivered to me only yesterday.  This

 9     time, I can just respond straight away orally to this request in order to

10     speed up the proceedings, because the witness is supposed to come in

11     about 15 days or so, that the witness can testify as a 92 ter witness in

12     view of the command position he had at the time.  It would truly be

13     ludicrous if this witness were to come as a 92 ter witness.  So if you

14     look at what his statement has to do with, all of it will be clear to

15     you.

16             Not to dwell on it any longer.  I think that you had a look at it

17     yourselves and have seen for yourselves.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We will look into

19     this.

20             Very quickly now, for Ewa Tabeau, this question of the CD-ROMs,

21     can you tell us what this is all about, Ms. Dahl?

22             MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  I'm not able to answer your

23     question at the moment.  I'll need to find out what was disclosed.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's bring the

25     witness into the courtroom, then, and we will ask him to take the solemn

Page 10593

 1     declaration.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.  Could you

 4     please give us your name, surname, and date of birth.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am Franja Baricevic, born on the

 6     3rd of June, 1953, in Hrtkovci.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your job at the moment?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a mechanic.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you ever testified in

10     front of a national or international court regarding what happened in

11     former Yugoslavia, or is this the first time that you are testifying in

12     court?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my first time.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You may read the

15     declaration that is in front of you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just need to get my glasses.

17             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

18     and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  FRANJO BARICEVIC

20                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You may sit down.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me give you a few details

24     regarding the way this hearing is going to happen.

25             This is the first time you're testifying in court, and it is

Page 10594

 1     usually something that is quite striking for anyone.  My mission first is

 2     to reassure you and to tell you exactly what is going to happen.

 3             You will be asked questions by the representative of the OTP, and

 4     you have to answer these questions.  I'm sure that you have met this

 5     person either this morning or yesterday in order to prepare for this

 6     hearing.  The Prosecutor may also present a few documents to you.

 7             After this phase, Mr. Seselj, who is on your left, and I'm sure

 8     you know who it is, will be putting questions to you, and this will be

 9     the cross-examination.  He will be entitled to put questions to you.

10     Most of these questions are aimed at testing your credibility and also at

11     addressing issues of substance that were dealt with during the

12     examination-in-chief.

13             The three Judges on the Bench in front of you can also take the

14     floor at any moment if they need some details on subjects that are not

15     clear enough.

16             Please try to be very specific in your answers.  If at one point

17     in time you do not understand the question, just ask the person putting

18     the question to you to rephrase it.  Even if it's a Judge, don't hesitate

19     to ask the Judge to reformulate the question.  You cannot answer a

20     question correctly if you have not understood it perfectly.

21             We will have 20-minute breaks every hour and a half, so which

22     means that we'll soon have a break in about an hour or so.

23             You have made a solemn declaration, so you're now the witness of

24     justice.  You will no longer be in contact with the OTP.

25             If we're able to finish this hearing today, so much the better.

Page 10595

 1     If not, we will continue tomorrow, which means that you will have to come

 2     in this courtroom again tomorrow afternoon, but you're not supposed to

 3     have any contact with the OTP in the meanwhile.

 4             The Trial Chamber, of course, can answer any questions you may

 5     wish, if need be.

 6             I wanted to say all this to make sure that this hearing would run

 7     as smoothly as possible.

 8             Good afternoon, Mr. Prosecutor, and you have the floor.

 9             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

10             I have two issues to raise before I start the

11     examination-in-chief.

12             Please allow me to introduce Mr. Christian Simon.  He's sitting

13     here with us.  He is and intern and helped in the preparation.

14             And another issue is I think I will not need two hours, but I can

15     do this examination-in-chief in about 90 minutes.

16                           Examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:

17        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, good afternoon.  First of all, I would like to

18     tell the Judges your private and professional background.  So could you

19     please tell us, what is your nationality, and what is your ethnicity?

20        A.   I'm a Croat, Catholic.

21        Q.   Are you married, and do you have children?

22        A.   I'm married.  My wife's name is Jadranka.  I have a daughter and

23     a son.  The daughter was born in 1978 and the son in 1983.  I live in

24     Jaksic.  (redacted)

25        Q.   Could you please let us know in which country is this village is

Page 10596

 1     situated?

 2        A.   The village is in Croatia.

 3        Q.   Did you always live in Croatia?

 4        A.   No, no.  Until the 19th of May, 1992, I lived in Hrtkovci, in

 5     Vojvodina.  The address was Savska, number 19.

 6        Q.   Can you please let us know, since when did you live in Hrtkovci?

 7        A.   I lived in Hrtkovci from my birth, 1953, up until the date that

 8     I've already told you about.

 9        Q.   Have your parents already lived in Hrtkovci?

10        A.   My mother -- or, rather, my great-grandfather, grandfather and

11     mother always lived in Hrtkovci, whereas my father originally came from

12     Lika, present-day Croatia.

13        Q.   Could you please let us know what was your occupation or your

14     work in Hrtkovci?

15        A.   Well, actually, I completed secondary school in Hrtkovci.

16     Actually, it was a 3-year vocational school in Ruma.  Then I went to do

17     my military service in Sombor.  I did my training over two and a half

18     months' time, and after that I was transferred to Tuzla.  So that went on

19     for 15 months.  Afterwards, I went to Zagreb.  I worked for the railways

20     there.  I completed some vocational training there at the railways, that

21     is to say, to drive motor vehicles.  I spent three years there.  After

22     three years, I went back to Hrtkovci where I started working for the

23     waterworks.  I worked there as a maintenance worker up until 1992.

24        Q.   Have you ever been engaged in politics?

25        A.   While I was still doing my military service, I was a member of

Page 10597

 1     the Communist Party, all the way up to the death of Josip Broz Tito.

 2     When he died, I returned my membership card and I never joined any party

 3     afterwards.

 4        Q.   So you were never afterwards in a political party, but did you

 5     engage in political affairs on the local level?

 6        A.   No, no.

 7        Q.   Sorry.  I don't know if you --

 8        A.   I don't know how you're going to understand this.  I was just a

 9     member of the Assembly of the Local Commune.  A member of the Assembly of

10     the Local Commune, well, that is an organ that governs the local commune,

11     that takes care of the functioning of the local commune, basic care

12     concerning the local commune.  It's not really a political party, no.

13     That's what I did, and the term of office was four years.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One small detail.

15             You told us that you were a member of the Communist Party.  At

16     the time, out of 100 people, how many were members of the Communist

17     Party; 10 per cent, 20 per cent, 50 per cent?  Was it only a minority

18     that was in the Communist Party or other?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know what?  Most people

20     who, well, worked for the municipality and the local commune were

21     supposed to be members of the party in order to get a job.  This was an

22     unwritten rule.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understood you right, you

24     were a member of the Communist Party for your job, not for ideological

25     reasons.

Page 10598

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.  That's right.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, do you know how many inhabitants Hrtkovci had at

 5     the time?

 6        A.   I didn't quite understand you.  What time do you mean?  You mean

 7     when I got my job with the local commune or when?  Later in 1992?

 8        Q.   No, in 1990.

 9        A.   In the 1990s, our village had a population of 2.900, roughly,

10     perhaps -- well, give or take an inhabitant or two.

11        Q.   Do you know what the ethnic distribution was in your village?  I

12     guess there was more than one.

13        A.   There were 13 different ethnicities in our village.  75 per cent

14     were Croats and Hungarians, and 25 per cent were all the rest -- well,

15     all the rest.

16        Q.   Do you know how many -- what was the percentage of the Serb

17     ethnicity among this 25 per cent?

18        A.   Well, the Serb ethnicity were, well, about 25 per cent, so 5 per

19     cent would be all the rest -- I mean, well, Romanians and all the rest.

20        Q.   Can you describe the relationship between the different

21     ethnicities before 1990?

22        A.   Yes.  You know what?  Well, this village was a village of

23     industrious people, a calm and peaceful place.  When you'd arrive there,

24     you wouldn't know who was who.  All of these people were hardworking.

25     They worked day in, day out, and no distinctions were made in terms of

Page 10599

 1     ethnicity or anything else.

 2        Q.   Had there been any tensions between the ethnicities?

 3        A.   Well, ethnic tensions started -- well, it is a well-known fact

 4     that Milosevic held his rallies all the way from Kosovo to Vojvodina.

 5     Then in the village, well, he pulled some people -- I don't know how to

 6     put this.  There is chafe in every wheat, if I can put it that way.  But,

 7     you know, people didn't really pay much attention to these people who

 8     were becoming louder and louder.

 9        Q.   Did I understand you correct that before Milosevic had these

10     rallies, the relationship between the ethnicities was okay; there were no

11     tensions?

12        A.   That's right.  That's right.  It was peaceful.  As I've already

13     said, everything was fine.

14        Q.   And can you tell us when there was a change?  Can you give us the

15     year, probably?

16        A.   Well, as I said, when Milosevic organised these rallies, then

17     this party was established, Vuk Draskovic's party and Seselj's party, you

18     know, and then people -- well, how should I put this?  People who were in

19     favour of that party were already apart from the rest, and they started

20     creating some trouble and whatever.

21        Q.   Do you know when Seselj's party was erected in Hrtkovci?

22        A.   Well, sometime in 1991, a branch was established in the village,

23     of Seselj's party, that is.  First of all, Aco Ejic founded this party or

24     these parties, and Ostoja Sibincic founded the SPO; and then Aco Ejic

25     gave up, and Sibincic espoused the SPO.  I mean, he was in Seselj's

Page 10600

 1     party.  I am sorry, yes.

 2        Q.   We'll come to this later.  Can you give us the reasons why these

 3     tensions arose?

 4        A.   I didn't quite understand you.  I'm sorry.

 5        Q.   You told us -- I'll summarise it.  You told us until 1990, the

 6     relationship was okay between the different ethnicities; and from 1991

 7     onwards, there was a rise of tension or there were first tensions, and I

 8     want to know from you what was the reason for these tensions.

 9        A.   Just a minute, please.  The tensions started when this party was

10     established.  At first, these refugees came in.  This group of 160

11     refugees came from Slavonia, and then, well, then the tensions started

12     among the people there.

13        Q.   Can you please tell us, what were these refugees and where did

14     they come from?  You already said "Slavonia," but what was the reason

15     that they came, and what kind of people were these?

16        A.   Well, you know what?  This first wave of refugees -- just a

17     moment, please.  This first wave of refugees arrived from Slavonia.

18             Just a moment.  Sorry.

19             This first wave of refugees arrived from Slavonia, and then the

20     local Commune of Hrtkovci found some kind of shelter for these people,

21     and, also, food aid was given to them.  We collected food for them.  The

22     local commune even bought stoves for them, for those people who didn't

23     have stoves in their homes, and in that way they were taken care of.

24     Even financial contributions were given for these people who said that

25     they didn't have any money.

Page 10601

 1        Q.   Was there enough room for all the refugees in Hrtkovci in the

 2     beginning?

 3        A.   No.  Well, a few remained, but, you know, they had some

 4     relatives -- well, there wasn't enough room for them, you know.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, is this still 1991?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's already the beginning of 1992.

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A small mystery that I haven't

 9     been able to solve until now.

10             These refugees came from Slavonia, but why did they arrive in

11     your village?  Couldn't they go elsewhere?  Is it because your village

12     was on the way from Slavonia?  Why is it that they ended up in your

13     village?  Why didn't they directly go to Belgrade?  Why did they stop in

14     your village?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is something I find

16     unclear, too, but I will tell you that they were channeled, in a way.

17     They reported to this president, this president of that branch, I mean,

18     and he channeled them to different places.  I cannot tell you what the

19     connection was, but at any rate, all of them came to Hrtkovci.

20             Now, I cannot say that this or that person asked them to come.  I

21     cannot tell you about the first group, what the reason was, but I did

22     know that they all turned to Ostoja Sibincic.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

25        Q.   You already mentioned Ostoja Sibincic.  Could you please describe

Page 10602

 1     us the role he had at that time in the village?

 2        A.   Ostoja Sibincic, well, I know him very well.  He's just a bit

 3     older than I am.  He completed some military academy, and then he was

 4     thrown out of there, and then he came to Ruma to work as a municipality

 5     clerk, and he led Seselj's party there.  He was a very active member.

 6        Q.   Was he in Seselj's -- Mr. Seselj's party from the beginning, or

 7     was he in another party?  Do you remember this?

 8        A.   Well, I've already said.  First, he espoused the SPO; and then

 9     briefly, he went to Seselj's party.

10        Q.   Do you know him personally?

11        A.   Oh, yes, personally.  I live in one street, and he lives in this

12     other street.  I've known him very well.

13        Q.   Can you please tell us a bit about his political attitude, if you

14     know this?

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, if I may.

16             This switch from one party to another, when did it occur?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know the date, you know,

18     but it was towards the end of 1991.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution and the Judges

20     are asking very important questions for us.  I mean, they are crucial for

21     us.  We need to know when the Serbian Radical Party actually had a seat

22     and had recognition.

23             I'm listening to you.  You're saying that Mr. Seselj had a party

24     and this and that.  This is not enough for us.  We need to have dates.

25     We need to know the exact date at which this happened, and we need to

Page 10603

 1     know exactly why you know that this is Mr. Seselj's party.  So could you

 2     please enlighten us on this?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know the exact dates,

 4     but it was towards the end of 1991.  And he always stressed that he was a

 5     radical, and the -- he didn't have the headquarters of his party there,

 6     but the meetings were held in his apartment.  His apartment was smack in

 7     the middle of the village, you know.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, you described Mr. Sibincic as a radical.  Do you

10     remember if he gave a specific name to Serbs who had a friendly

11     relationship to Croats at that time?

12        A.   Well, as I've already said, I was a member of the Local Commune

13     Assembly, and there was this meeting that we held that was attended by

14     Ostoja Sibincic.  The president of the Local Commune Assembly was a Serb,

15     an ethnic Serb, Dobrosav Markovic, and he told him this:  He said, "What

16     kind of Serbs are you when you've been able to live side by side with

17     Ustashas for such a long time?"

18        Q.   Do you know the expression he used?  If you don't remember, it

19     doesn't matter, but do you remember?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  He said that the local indigenous Serbs were

21     low-quality Serbs, whereas the Serbs that had come from Slavonia, he said

22     that they were good-quality Serbs.

23        Q.   Why were the local Serbs qualified as low-quality Serbs?

24        A.   Well, that was because they got along well with Croats.  As I've

25     already explained, they lived in a brotherly fashion.  They helped each

Page 10604

 1     other.  This was a village of industrious people, people who got along

 2     well with each other.

 3        Q.   You already mentioned it.  How was Ostoja Sibincic involved in

 4     the housing problems?  Can you please describe it a bit broader?

 5        A.   Well, as I've already explained, all those people, all those

 6     refugees turned to him personally, and he provided them with addresses of

 7     people who were working abroad in Germany, Italy, France, Belgium, the

 8     Netherlands, all over Europe; and they left those houses there to their

 9     family, to their neighbours, for safekeeping, so to speak.  But they

10     would come back to spend their annual leave there in those houses.

11        Q.   And what did Ostoja Sibincic propose to locate the refugees?

12        A.   Well, his proposal was that those people should move in, but the

13     local commune could not dispose of other people's property without the

14     approval of the owner.

15        Q.   So this was also a reason that tensions arose?

16        A.   Yes, that was a reason for the tensions.  People had to start

17     locking their doors and report to other people what the situation was

18     like in the village.

19        Q.   Do you remember names of persons who came -- of refugees who came

20     from Slavonia to Hrtkovci?  Do you remember specific names?

21        A.   Well, I do know that there was this man, Rade Cakmak.  Yes, I'm

22     able to recall this one name.  He broke into a house owned by a man who

23     worked in Germany at the time.  The house was locked up.  It was full of

24     all kinds of things because this man had worked in Germany for 30 years.

25        Q.   Did there come a moment when this housing situation in Hrtkovci

Page 10605

 1     became critical with the arrival of refugees from Slavonia?

 2        A.   Well, the situation became critical because of the unrest that

 3     was generated in the village.  People were simply upset; they felt

 4     uneasy.  And the people who had come from Slavonia, they were also

 5     looking for some kind of a solution.

 6        Q.   Do you know if promises have been made to these refugees related

 7     to their accommodation?

 8        A.   Those refugees had been duped.  They had been told that the

 9     houses would be empty, that the people from Hrtkovci had gone to join the

10     Ustashas.  But when they came, there were people living in those houses,

11     working, living in the houses.

12        Q.   Did the refugees complain about the situation?

13        A.   Yes.  They demanded a meeting with Seselj.  They wanted Seselj to

14     attend the meeting.  But on Easter -- rather, on Good Friday, an

15     activist, a female activist from Ruma came.  I don't know her name, but

16     she came to attend this meeting that was held in the culture hall in

17     Hrtkovci.

18        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, what I'd like to know is:  From where do you know

19     that refugees complained about the situation?  Can you let us know?

20        A.   Well, of course I know.  When I worked in the local commune, I

21     was there all the time with all of them, and I knew that a meeting would

22     be held because I had the keys to the hall.  In fact, I kept the keys for

23     all the important buildings in Hrtkovci because I was in the local

24     commune, so they came to me to ask me for the keys in order to be able to

25     hold the meeting.

Page 10606

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Witness.  What my

 2     colleague was saying, well, the same thing crossed my mind.  What we need

 3     to know are the dates.  This meeting was held in the presence of this

 4     woman coming from Ruma.  On what date?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the Catholic Easter, the

 6     Good Friday.  The Good Friday, to be more specific.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1998, in April, since it was

 8     Easter for the Catholics.  We'll check.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the Good Friday.  That's

10     the most specific --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another point also.

12             You said that they had been tricked.  When I heard you say that,

13     I wondered who they had been duped by; the Croats who had told them to

14     leave and, "You will find houses in Hrtkovci," or by Serbs, who told them

15     that they would find houses in Hrtkovci?  Who tricked them, exactly?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said Serbs, of

17     course, because they had told them that Croats had gone to Croatia to

18     join the Ustashas, the army.  You know, that's what they said.  They said

19     that the houses were empty.  The local -- the local authorities, they

20     most likely duped them because they told the refugees that.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, by Serbs from

22     Slavonia, those were the people that purportedly --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

25             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

Page 10607

 1        Q.   Let's come back to Good Friday in April 1991.  You described that

 2     a female activist arrived in Hrtkovci --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, no, it wasn't in 1991.  It

 4     was in 1992.

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I'm sorry.  It was a mistake.  I mean 1992.

 6     Thank you for correcting me.

 7        Q.   You told us that the refugees were not satisfied with what this

 8     female activist told them.  Did they have another wish, who should come

 9     to Hrtkovci to resolve or to care about their problems?

10        A.   After that -- they were unhappy, and after that they demanded to

11     meet with Seselj.  They wanted Seselj to come personally to the village

12     and to hold this meeting with them.

13        Q.   Why did they ask that Mr. Seselj should come to Hrtkovci?

14        A.   Well, I don't know what happened at that meeting, but people were

15     really dissatisfied, unhappy.  They wanted this meeting to be held, and

16     it was finally held on the 6th of May.

17        Q.   Okay, we come to this later.  But could you please let us know,

18     was there a kind of preparation for this rally before Mr. Seselj arrived?

19        A.   Yes, of course.  Throughout the day, there was Chetnik music

20     blaring from the loudspeakers.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Witness.  Since we

22     are dealing with extremely important issues, it is important to take this

23     step by step and not make a mistake.  I listened very carefully to what

24     you're saying, therefore.

25             If I have understood correctly, dissatisfied Serbs wanted to meet

Page 10608

 1     Mr. Seselj, and then a woman comes from Ruma --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- and those people who wanted

 4     to meet Seselj don't meet him, since it is a woman who comes.  And you

 5     say that the meeting of the 6th of May was then organised.  We know that

 6     on the 6th of May, Mr. Seselj delivered a speech.

 7             So how do you know that all this happened, i.e., that the

 8     dissatisfied Serbs want to see Mr. Seselj, and instead, the woman from

 9     Ruma comes, and the meeting of the 6th of May is organised?  How do you

10     know that.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said.  I worked

12     in the village.  I talked to people.  I worked with them, and it's a

13     village.  People talk about stuff, and the word gets 'round.  And I've

14     already told you that I had given them the keys to the culture hall where

15     the meeting was held with this woman, and I started to recount how, as

16     far as the 6th of May is concerned, I gave them the PA system from the

17     culture hall, and this was something that was bought by the Local Commune

18     Assembly to be put at the disposal of all the political parties.  All of

19     them were given the right to some space and to the PA system.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we know, since we've

21     heard other witnesses, the Bench already have some evidence.  We know

22     that there was an election campaign at the time.  Therefore, as part of

23     the election campaign, politicians like Mr. Seselj come to one or other

24     village to hold speeches in view of the upcoming elections.  You are

25     stating that the meeting of the 6th of May has nothing to do with the

Page 10609

 1     election campaign, if I understand you correctly, but had to do with

 2     those dissatisfied Serbs who wanted to meet Mr. Seselj.  According to

 3     you, there are two reasons.  Either it is due to the political campaign,

 4     and that is why Mr. Seselj was there, or it was because those

 5     dissatisfied Serbs wanted to meet Mr. Seselj.

 6             So what is the reason, according to you?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.  They wanted to meet

 8     Mr. Seselj so that he could give them some guidelines how to proceed, to

 9     put it quite simply.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but since Mr. Seselj

11     did not hold an official position in the local commune -- was that the

12     case?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they demanded to meet with

14     somebody higher up in the Radical Party.  They were unhappy with

15     Ostoja Sibincic.  They wanted to talk to somebody higher up to give them

16     some guidelines as to how to proceed, what they should do.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's proceed.

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Sorry.

19        Q.   I was asking if there was a kind of preparation for this rally,

20     and you started before the Presiding Judge asked you an additional

21     question.  But there was music.  Was there also more?  What was this

22     preparation; can you tell us?

23        A.   Well, there was music and there were posters all over the

24     streets, and across the road from the gas station there was some kind of

25     a platform put up.  A trailer was dragged there, and then the sides were

Page 10610

 1     put down, and this was some kind of a scene.

 2        Q.   Where was it in the village; can you let us know?

 3        A.   Well, it was in Vladimir Nazor Street.  Let me think about the

 4     number.  15, near the number 15.  There was the intersection.  Well,

 5     that's where most -- where there was a lot of space, and the lawn that

 6     was across the road from the gas station was used to put up this stage.

 7        Q.   Before Mr. Seselj arrived the 6th of May, did there arrive, also,

 8     other people to the village?

 9     A.   A bus came in.(redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted), and there were

12     White Eagles on the bus.  They said that they were there as Seselj's

13     security detail.

14        Q.   From where do you know that these were White Eagles?

15        A.   Well, they wore black uniforms, and they had rifles.

16        Q.   But there were also other people who had black uniforms and

17     rifles.  This does not explain to me why these should have been

18     White Eagles.

19        A.   Well, they said they were the White Eagles, that they were

20     Seselj's security.

21        Q.   Do you know of a political group which is asserted -- which the

22     White Eagles are asserted to, the White Eagles belong to?

23        A.   Well, what is the name of it?  Let me think just a moment.  What

24     was it that they said?

25        Q.   If you don't remember, we'll come to the next question.  It's not

Page 10611

 1     that important for me.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to get back

 3     to something which is extremely important, which you mentioned at the

 4     first time we hear this and deserves our attention.

 5             You said that these men dressed in black and that had rifles were

 6     the White Eagles.  You said they were in charge of Mr. Seselj's security.

 7     When you say "they," is it something they said -- told you directly, or

 8     was this something you heard from someone else?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they didn't tell me

10     personally, but they said -- well, they were -- there were people there

11     at the gas station, and they told them.  They didn't tell me personally,

12     but I was there close by, and they were guarding the area around the gas

13     station and the stage.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,

15     there was a group of people standing next to the petrol station.  Then

16     the White Eagles arrive, and they tell this group standing there that

17     they were in charge of Mr. Seselj's security.  And you hear someone from

18     the group saying this to you, or were they talking amongst themselves and

19     that is something which you overheard?  Is this how things happened?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, they talked, and that's

21     how I learnt about it.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Had you heard about the

23     White Eagles before that time, or was it the first time you saw them?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean in the village?

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, in the village.

Page 10612

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

 2     ... time.  The first time.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But before that time, were the

 4     White Eagles well known?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, people didn't know about

 6     them, but they had never been to the village.  That was the first time.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What did people say about these

 8     men; good things or bad things?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bad things.  Bad things were said

10     about those people.  They were not an army at all.  They had long hair.

11     They were disheveled.  They were dressed in all kinds of clothes.  Some

12     people wore boots, some other kind of footwear.  You could see that this

13     was not a regular, proper army.

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  There's something I

15     don't understand.

16             When the local municipality is informed that a political party is

17     organising a rally and decides to provide what is necessary in support of

18     this rally, is the local police also informed about this; in other words,

19     that the police needs to stand guard in the village?  Was the local

20     police there, and if the local police were there, this meant that a group

21     which did not belong to the local police could be in charge of law and

22     order in Hrtkovci?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand your question.

24     There was police, but the police did not attend the rally, the police

25     that belonged to the authorities at the time.  They were about a

Page 10613

 1     kilometre away from the area, and they were regulating traffic, so one

 2     kilometre away at both sides.  So all they did was just regulate the

 3     traffic.  They were not there at the rally.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  That's clear.

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 6        Q.   Did you, yourself, go to the rally?

 7        A.   I did attend this rally there where the gas station was.

 8        Q.   Why did you go there?

 9        A.   Well, I was curious as to what would be done with Croats because

10     I had heard all kinds of stories, and then I said to myself, well, let's

11     go there, and let's see what will be decided.  I was simply curious.

12        Q.   Did you go alone, or were you accompanied by someone?

13        A.   No, I did not go there alone.  My brother, my half-brother,

14     Ladislav Hunjadi from France had come on his vacation, so we had lunch

15     together, and I said, "Well, brother, it seems that this is the last time

16     that you've come to visit me."  So he looked at me.  He didn't get what I

17     was saying.  And then I told him, "Well, you'll see after this rally,

18     sure enough."

19        Q.   Why did you have this feeling?  Can you explain this?

20        A.   Well, as I've already told you, if one lives in the village,

21     works side by side with people, you can see how they're thinking, and you

22     do realise what's going on.

23        Q.   Do you know how many people, approximately, participated at that

24     rally?

25        A.   Well, there were quite a few people.  People came in from all

Page 10614

 1     over the place, from various villages.  There were about 2.000 people.

 2        Q.   Do you know who gave a speech during this rally?  Can you tell

 3     us?

 4        A.   Well, the rally was opened by Milan Zilic.  The stage was

 5     actually set up in front of his house.

 6        Q.   Can you please describe us the stage, how it was constructed,

 7     what kind of stage it was?

 8        A.   Well, as I've already explained, it was a trailer that was

 9     dragged there by a tractor, and then the sides were put down, and some

10     kind of a lectern was put there for the speakers to use.

11        Q.   Did Mr. Zilic mention names of the Hrtkovci inhabitants?

12        A.   Mr. Zilic made a speech, and he mentioned the names of people who

13     had already been in Croatia; some of them in Croatia, some of them in

14     Germany, some of them in Austria, that is.  Well, if necessary, I'll give

15     you the names:  Sostaric, the Grdic brothers, the Cindric brothers,

16     Stepic, Markus, Mate Markus, and the rest.  He said that they had joined

17     the ZNG and that they were attacking Serbs with Ustasha knives.  That is

18     how he described the situation and these people while he made his speech.

19        Q.   Did he say what should happen to these people or these families?

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, everything you're

21     saying is of utmost importance.  To make sure that you don't make

22     assumptions, let me tell you that we have the speeches made by the three

23     speakers.  We have their speeches, and I've just noted that you said

24     something that was not in the speech.  At one point in time, you said

25     that Mr. Zilic talked about the Ustashi knives.  Are you absolutely sure

Page 10615

 1     you heard it with your own ears?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're completely sure?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm quite sure.  Yes, yes.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What exactly did he say?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were the first people whose

 7     names were called out at the beginning of the speech.  It was stated that

 8     they were in the ZNG and that they were attacking people with Ustasha

 9     knives.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is it "knife," or is it -- what

11     kind of knife is it, this Ustasha knife?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I never saw this type of

13     knife before, so I don't know what he meant.  That's what he said.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, allow me to correct.  We have

16     Mr. Seselj's published speech which Mr. Seselj published in his books.

17     It's the Prosecution -- just to be correct.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Prosecutor, can I ask you, now that you

20     mention the version of the speech which we have seen in Mr. Seselj's

21     book, do you know if there exists a recording -- an audio-recording of

22     the speech, and if so, if that audio-recording has been typed out?

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  What I can tell you is that the Prosecution

24     tried for more than two years to get this audio record of the speech,

25     which allegedly exists.  We never could find it.  When Mr. Seselj was

Page 10616

 1     testifying in Milosevic, he said three times that he has the video of the

 2     speech and that he will use this video during his case.  At that moment,

 3     we gave up because we had -- we said that it's important that the truth

 4     comes out.  We cannot find this speech.  Very strange things happened

 5     when we tried to get it.  There were archives burned down and so on, so

 6     we gave up, and we didn't -- we don't have the speech.  We have what

 7     Mr. Seselj published.  We are informed that this is in his book.  I don't

 8     remember the title, but it was published when he was already in

 9     detention.  We don't know a further version.

10             We have got from Mr. Seselj the 80 books, which he gave to us in

11     October of 2003.  We were very carefully looking through these books.  We

12     couldn't find it.  Maybe that we over-read it, but I would be very

13     grateful to Mr. Seselj if he could show us where it is published in these

14     books.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, last time you told

17     us that you had the video.  Of course, you said that you were not going

18     to cooperate with the OTP and you had no intention of disclosing this to

19     the OTP.  But it's important, so the Trial Chamber now is turning to you.

20     If you have the video and the audiotape that goes along with it, please

21     give it.  It could be very useful for you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have the video-recording, and I

23     had intended to use it in the cross-examination of Witness Aleksa Ejic.

24     However, as you know, all my communications with my associates, with my

25     Defence team, with my legal advisers have been cut off, and I am not in a

Page 10617

 1     position to use that video clip.  However, Mr. Mussemeyer would have to

 2     say whose archives, when, where; and Mr. Mussemeyer would have to review

 3     those 80 books that I handed in here in the courtroom in 2003 to counsel

 4     for the Prosecution.  They contain the entire transcript of the rally

 5     from Hrtkovci.  These are paperbacks.  Mr. Mussemeyer has a new edition

 6     of my complete works, hardcover ones that were published after went to

 7     The Hague.  However, the paperback ones were published before I came to

 8     The Hague.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Mussemeyer,

10     those archives which burned down, or I don't know what -- what exactly

11     are you talking about?

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  What I'm talking about is that we tried to get

13     in possession of the video and the speech, and we did not succeed.  We

14     were trying hard to find it over there in, let's say, Austria, in Germany

15     and France.  We were trying specifically in Serbia, but we never could

16     find this video.  And when we contacted a television station, it was --

17     in one case, it was said that the archive burned down.  On other

18     occasions, we were told that the tapes have been used for next little

19     video clips because there were not enough tapes.  The result is we never

20     got in possession of this video.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, let's not give up hope.

22     Maybe Mr. Seselj's associates will soon send it, and we'll be able to

23     look at it and see it.  Let's not give up any hope.

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  A little observation.  We were looking very

25     carefully through all these 80 books.  It doesn't mean that I personally

Page 10618

 1     did it.  As you know, I unfortunately don't speak B/C/S, but we have

 2     analysts who were reading through all the books.  They had a specific

 3     view of Hrtkovci, and they couldn't find it.  It's possible that they

 4     overread it, so it would be great if Mr. Seselj could tell us in which

 5     book it was published, that we can come with the real version.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, in which book is

 7     it?  In which book is this speech?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot remember exactly in which

 9     book out of the 80 concerned.  However, the title is not "Speeches in

10     Hrtkovci" but "The Major Importance of the May Elections," so they can

11     search under that heading.  That's how it was published.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So it is "The Major

13     Importance of the Speeches of the May Election" or something like that.

14             Very well.  You may proceed.

15             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

16        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, let's come back to the speech of Milan Zilic.  You

17     told us that he was mentioning family names of Hrtkovci inhabitants.  Was

18     your name also mentioned by him?

19        A.   No, no.  My speech was -- my name was not mentioned in that

20     speech made by Milan Zilic.

21        Q.   Who spoke after Mr. Zilic has finished his speech?

22        A.   Some woman that I didn't know.  I don't know what her name was,

23     but she spoke very briefly.  I mean, she did not make a very long speech.

24     She made a very short speech.

25        Q.   Who spoke next?

Page 10619

 1        A.   After her, Seselj spoke, Vojislav Seselj.

 2        Q.   Could you see and hear him clearly?

 3        A.   Well, I've already said that I was 30 or 40 metres away from the

 4     stage, and things could be heard quite clearly.

 5        Q.   Do you remember the main topics of Mr. Seselj's speech?

 6        A.   Well, I remember.  At any rate, in the beginning, well, something

 7     was wrong with the loudspeakers, and then he asked for the -- for the

 8     loudspeakers to be switched off and to remove the ropes that they had

 9     placed there.  Afterwards, the speech started with the well-known

10     borders, Virovitica, Karlobag and whatever else, whatever it was that he

11     said, as he did say, as he presented these borders of this future Greater

12     Serbia.

13        Q.   Has he also mentioned names in his speech?

14        A.   Well, as I said, he spoke.  He made this short speech, and then

15     after that, after that, the names of the top people in the village.

16     Well, that's what he called out:  Mato Samov [phoen], Franjo Samov

17     [phoen], Dr. Branko Vuksanic, Zdenko Barisic, head of the local office.

18     Among them, he called out my name, too, and others.

19        Q.   Do you remember when --

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  You heard the

21     speech.  You listened very carefully to the speech, right?  You said that

22     you came out of curiosity, that you were 30 metres away from Mr. Seselj,

23     but you listened very carefully to the speech.  And do you remember the

24     speech well, as of now?

25             Let me read a passage from this speech, and I would like to have

Page 10620

 1     your opinion on this.  This is what he says:

 2             "We must maintain the existence of Yugoslavia because it will

 3     then be much easier for Serbs from Krajina and from the Serbian

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina to integrate Yugoslavia as a federal entity, much

 5     easier than if we had proclaimed the state of Serbia and if they had had

 6     to integrate the state later on at a later stage.  In this respect, to

 7     integrate Yugoslavia, all they will have to do is say that they never

 8     left it; and thanks to this, they will be in a much better position on

 9     the international scene."

10             So here, he spoke about Yugoslavia in this speech, and it seems

11     that he told everyone he was talking to that he was in favour of

12     Yugoslavia being maintained as it was.  Do you remember this; and if so,

13     what did you think of that at the time?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that.  I do

15     remember that he said, "Serb Dubrovnik, Serb Karlovac, Serb Virovitica."

16     Just a moment, please.  Well, that's the kind of thing he said.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't remember the other

18     part.  Very well.

19             Mr. Prosecutor, you have the floor.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

21        Q.   You mentioned that you also heard your name from Mr. Seselj's

22     mouth; is that correct, just to summarise if I understood it correctly?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   Did he give the reason what should happen to these people he was

25     reading out?

Page 10621

 1        A.   Well, he said that Serb refugees did not have a roof over their

 2     heads and that Croats had to leave the village within three days.  They

 3     would get keys and addresses, and they'd have to leave the village.  If

 4     they didn't want to do that, they will load them onto a bus and send them

 5     to the border.  "Let them go to their beautiful homeland."  Well, their

 6     homeland, that is.

 7        Q.   Do we have an idea where Mr. Seselj got these names?  He is not

 8     from Hrtkovci.

 9        A.   Well, of course he's not.  Ostoja Sibincic, the top people gave

10     him that list, the top people of that political party.

11        Q.   Is that your assumption, or do you know this for certain?

12        A.   I know that for sure because Seselj didn't even know who held

13     what position, who had what job, and he read everything out very exactly

14     and specifically.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, here, again, you are

16     addressing a very important topic.

17             In the speech that we have, which is an extract of Mr. Seselj's

18     book, this is not mentioned.  There could be two reasons for this:

19     Either in the excerpts that he published in his book, he slightly

20     tampered his speech and took out the passage you mentioned; or the second

21     reason is that you could be adding things in his mouth, putting things in

22     his mouth.

23             I'm putting a question again to you, and it's very important.

24     Are you absolutely sure that during this speech Mr. Seselj read out a

25     list of names of people living in your village who were Croats and who

Page 10622

 1     had to leave?  Are you 100 per cent sure that he read out this list?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm perfectly sure.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 100 per cent sure.  So when he

 4     published the book, he tampered with the truth?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at any rate, he read out

 6     these people's names, and these people moved out of the village.

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you give us the

 8     difference between the list that was read out by Zilic and the list read

 9     out by Mr. Seselj?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll tell you very gladly.  What

11     Mr. Zilic read out were the names of people who were already in Germany

12     and Austria and in Croatia, who had been working there for years, whereas

13     these people whose names Seselj read out, these people worked in

14     Hrtkovci, lived there.  At that time, they were still working there, at

15     the time when the rally was held.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's assume that you were

17     telling the truth.  Mr. Seselj delivered a speech and reads out names.

18     As far as you recollect, what happened?  Did he take out a piece of paper

19     from his pocket to read out that list, or did he give all those names

20     while he was speaking from the top of his head?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't see him take it out

22     of his pocket, this list, I mean.  However, I do know that these people

23     had their names called out and that he could not have known the names of

24     people who had lived there.  It's the top people from the village who

25     wrote this up for him and gave it to him to read.

Page 10623

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if you're telling the truth,

 2     this means that before delivering his speech, Mr. Seselj spoke with the

 3     leaders, and the leaders gave him a list.  Then he, who knows absolutely

 4     no one in this village - this is the first time that he set foot in this

 5     village - just out of -- from memory, he was able to give five or ten --

 6     between five to ten names, which means that he learned five to ten names

 7     by rote so that he could actually speak them out in his speech, because

 8     in the speech that I have, he mentioned a great number of people, but

 9     people who had nothing to do with the village.  For example, he mentioned

10     members of the Communist League, Vuk Draskovic, Milan Komenic, Dragoljub

11     Misilevic [phoen], Zoran Djindjic, Kosta Kovarski [phoen], Nikola

12     Milosevic.  So he mentioned a great number of names.  So he's very good

13     at quoting names of people that he knows for political reasons, of

14     course, but he didn't know the names of the villagers in the first place.

15     That means that if you're telling the truth, he learned by rote five to

16     ten names and then delivered them in a speech.

17             Is this what happened?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to say something to you.

19             Ostoja Sibincic was Seselj's right-hand man.  Most probably, he

20     had contacted him - every day, that is - in terms of what the situation

21     in the village was like.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you think that

23     Ostoja Sibincic was in permanent contact with Mr. Seselj, and that's how

24     he learned those names.  That may be what happened.  I mean, as a Judge,

25     I have to look into all possibilities.

Page 10624

 1             Mr. Mussemeyer, we have seven to eight minutes left before the

 2     break.  You may proceed.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, did Mr. Seselj also speak about mixed marriages in

 5     his speech?  Do you remember?

 6        A.   He did speak, yes, and he said the following:  Mixed marriages

 7     should be divorced, and children from mixed marriages should be killed.

 8        Q.   Are you sure about this?

 9        A.   100 per cent sure.

10        Q.   I will come now to the time after the speech.  Mr. Baricevic, can

11     you tell us how the atmosphere --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Prosecutor.

13     I'd like to come back to this because this is also essential.

14             You heard distinctively that Mr. Seselj was saying that children

15     from mixed marriage should be killed?  I mean, this is terrible, and this

16     is spoken in front of 2.000 people.  You're saying "2.000," and another

17     witness said there were only 700 people in attendance.  So he did utter

18     those words?  It's not in the book, in the speech that's in the book.

19     I can tell you that right away.  You're absolutely sure that you heard

20     that?

21             One question in passing.  Were there any reporters present?  The

22     day after the speech, was there any reports of the speech in the papers

23     or excerpts of the speech in the papers?  Did the radio talk about it,

24     saying that Mr. Seselj came to Hrtkovci to make a speech and so forth and

25     so on?  Were there any reports on this speech?  This is a politician on

Page 10625

 1     May 6th, 1992.  If he said that children from mixed marriage should be

 2     killed, this should be in the front page of all papers in the world.  So

 3     I would like to know whether any reporters were present at the time.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see the journalists, but

 5     afterwards I saw that the rally was written about.  "Borba" wrote about

 6     it.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] "Borba"?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The reporter must have been

10     there, probably.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later on, I read that they had

12     written about that rally.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Could the local police who was

15     regulating traffic, could they hear the PA system?  Could they hear the

16     speech through the PA system at the time?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that Seselj had said to turn

18     off the loudspeakers and to remove the ropes.  I don't think that the

19     local police guarded this.

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, you may

22     proceed.

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  How much time do I have until the break?  Five

24     minutes or --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Three minutes.

Page 10626

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I will continue.

 2        Q.   I wanted to ask the witness if there was any change of atmosphere

 3     after Mr. Seselj was gone and has delivered the speech.

 4        A.   After this speech, the situation in the village became very

 5     heated.  People -- or rather, groups of people broke into houses.  They

 6     forced people out of their homes.

 7        Q.   Did you and/or other inhabitants of Hrtkovci try to get

 8     protection from the authorities, from the police?

 9        A.   Since I was a member of the local commune and Dobrosav Markovic

10     was president of the Assembly of the Local Commune, we set out to Ruma

11     together.  We went to the State Security Service to see Slavko Kulundzic,

12     who was in charge of the area, so that he would find a solution for the

13     village because there was chaos in the village.  So we went to see him,

14     and we asked for help.  This is what he said; these were his words:

15     "Whoever has to leave, let them leave."  So we didn't get any protection.

16             As for the local police, when people asked them to help, they

17     didn't turn them down.  They just said, "Okay, okay"; and quite simply.

18     They turned a deaf ear.  They didn't intervene.  They just wanted the

19     people who were addressing them to be satisfied.

20        Q.   Do you know what was the goal of this harassment of the local

21     Hrtkovci Croats by the refugees?

22        A.   Well, the goal was the ethnic cleansing, to expel the Croats so

23     that they went to Croatia and to have the Serbs settle in Hrtkovci.

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, I think it's a good moment for

25     the break because --

Page 10627

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it is very timely.

 2             We'll now break for 20 minutes.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Court is back in session.

 6     Mr. Mussemeyer, you have the floor.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, before we come back to the

 8     examination-in-chief of Mr. Baricevic, we have been looking during the

 9     break for the book that Mr. Seselj mentioned.  He said it would be -- the

10     book where he said his speech was published, he said it would be called

11     "The Major Importance of the May Elections."  We found a book in the

12     meantime that was called "The Vital Importance of the May Elections," and

13     I would like to know from the accused if it is possible if it was this

14     book he was talking about.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not the title of the book.

16     It's the title of a chapter inside the book, "The Vital Importance of the

17     May Elections."  It's a chapter in the book.  Could you please show me

18     the book, and then I will tell you everything if you have the book here.

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I can do it next time.  I don't have it here,

20     but I will do it next time.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please bring it in next time.

22     That way, you can show it to us, and he will tell you that it's in the

23     book.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me just tell you

25     this:  As early as in 2003, I obtained from Belgrade a complete set of

Page 10628

 1     all the books of my collected works in paperback.  The new edition, a

 2     hard-back edition, started being put out after my arrival in The Hague,

 3     so I have 103 of the books that were published in hard-back, and I

 4     submitted to the Prosecution all that was published in paperback by 2003.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is what Mr. Seselj had

 6     told us a long time ago.  When he arrived, he gave the Prosecution - not

 7     you personally - but he gave the OTP all the books in paperback.  So you

 8     should have these paperback books, and in this book there is a chapter

 9     entitled "The Vital Importance of the May Elections."

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  What I can confirm is that we have the books.  I

11     was present in the courtroom when he gave us the books.  It was maybe the

12     23rd of October, 2003, if my memory serves me correctly.  But we will

13     check it, and when we read through these books, we analysed a lot of

14     documents, and it may be that in the near future with a Bar table motion

15     we will try to tender parts of these books.

16             But I will come back to the examination-in-chief of

17     Mr. Baricevic, and Mr. Registrar, please, could we see on the monitor

18     65 ter number 1497.  It's a press article from Vreme, and it is called

19     "Vreme press article about murders, beatings, threats, looting, and

20     expulsion in Hrtkovci against the non-Serb population."  This article is

21     from the 13th of July, 1992, and I would like the witness to read the

22     paragraph -- the first paragraph, which starts with the heading "The

23     Procedure of Moving Out."  It's in the first column.

24        A.   Sorry, but I really can't see it.  It's way too small for me.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, the first question is what

Page 10629

 1     this witness has to do with all that because according to his own

 2     testimony, this witness left Hrtkovci by the 15th of May, and this

 3     article was published in July of that year, 1992.  So the witness cannot

 4     comment on it.  I'm sure that he has never seen this at the relevant

 5     time, and this deals with things that happened after his departure.

 6             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I think we can --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  We can make a decision when the witness has read

 9     about this because this article refers to events which he experienced or

10     which he witnessed at the time.  So I would like to have the witness read

11     the paragraph which starts with:  "The procedure of moving out."  If he

12     can read this, I don't know.  I think we have technical problem.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'll try:

14             "Procedure of moving out.  Nedeljka, Jelica and Radmila are

15     Serbian women, married to Croats or Hungarians.  People tell them on the

16     phone --"

17             Well, I can't really -- could somebody else please read it?  I

18     can't read it.  It's really too small.  The print is too small.  I can't

19     see it.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you enlarge the

21     left-hand page, please.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have an additional

23     objection here.

24             The insistence on the witness reading this is nothing less than

25     leading the witness.  This witness is now made to read an article from an

Page 10630

 1     anti-Serb newspaper, and then he's asked to say whether he agrees with it

 2     or not.  And this is not an article that deals with the time when he was

 3     there.

 4             He's supposed to come here and tell us about his experience.

 5     He's not an expert who can comment on other people's articles.  And this

 6     is not an article about him so that he cannot even tell us, "Yes, this is

 7     what I stated."

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you've been given this

 9     article.  As far as the objection is concerned, the Trial Chamber can

10     state this:  This newspaper seems to be an anti-Serb newspaper - this is

11     what Mr. Seselj says - and talks about what happened with those people

12     who were present, those Serbian women who were married to Hungarians or

13     to Croats and who were being telephoned or spoken to.  It's interesting

14     to see whether what's mentioned in this article is something which you

15     were aware of.

16             You have the article in front of you.  Can you read this article

17     in your own language?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can now.  Yes, I do.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Read it out.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one remark, please.

21             I did not leave on the 15th.  I left on the 19th.  The 19th, yes.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 19th of May.  Fine.  Please

23     continue to read.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Procedure of moving out.

25     Nedeljka, Jelica and Radmila are Serb women married to Croats or

Page 10631

 1     Hungarians.  They get telephone calls, and people shout at them in the

 2     streets, telling them that they are Ustasha whores or bad Serbs and all

 3     kinds of things.  They are not the only people we talk to, and all tell a

 4     similar story.

 5             "On the 6th of May, there was a promotion rally of the Serb

 6     Radical Party.  Seselj was there too.  A list containing the names of 17

 7     people was read out, people who do not belong to the village, and that's

 8     when the moving out started, willingly or by force.  The latter means

 9     this:  They come to your place in a group.  One of them puts a paper

10     under your nose, and you are supposed to sign it, indicating that you are

11     willing to swap your old house where you were born for a house somewhere

12     in Croatia.  You don't even know if the house is there at all.  You don't

13     have the right to take with you your TV set, your tractor, nothing of

14     value, least of all the money.  Some 40 houses were emptied out in this

15     manner.  The rest left on their own, for the most part, after a file was

16     put together indicating that they had been providing assistance to

17     Croatia financially, by sending weapons, or that their sons are serving

18     in the ZNG.  Well, we almost trusted this until our turn came.  Now, when

19     they tell the same story about us, we know that this is not true.  We

20     understand that what they said about those who had gone before us was not

21     true either.  A woman says, 'My husband went'" --

22        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I think this should be enough from this

23     article, and I would like to know from you if you experienced such events

24     and if this really -- if you can confirm this, what is written here in

25     the newspaper.

Page 10632

 1        A.   Well, I can confirm the events that are described in this paper,

 2     and let me tell you what I went through.

 3             My daughter was on her way home from school, and she was stopped

 4     by some people who asked her, "Who is your father's favourite, you or

 5     your brother?  Because he can take only one of you with him to Croatia,

 6     and you know what's going to happen to the other one."  And then they

 7     called me on the phone.  They told me, "What are you waiting for?  Why

 8     don't you move out?"  Not -- more than once, in fact, this happened more

 9     than once, until I agreed to swap my house.

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Before we move on to the next exhibit, I would

11     like to have this moved into evidence, this exhibit with the

12     number 65 ter 1497.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we give it an exhibit

14     number:  On looking at the article, I would like to turn to the end of

15     the article where the journalist says that he met the secretary to the

16     local Serbian Radical Party, Milan Zilic.  This is what the journalist

17     says.

18             As far as you know, Witness, was Milan Zilic secretary to the

19     Serbian Radical Party?  This is what the journalist says.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I couldn't tell you that,

21     really.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we have an

23     exhibit number for this document, please.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P561.

25             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, could I have on the monitor the

Page 10633

 1     65 ter number 1309.  It has already an exhibit number, which is 556, but

 2     I wanted to discuss this press article from "Borba" from the 14th of May,

 3     1992, with the witness.  The title is "Half of the Villagers Packing

 4     Suitcases About the Situation in Hrtkovci After Threats and Pressure By

 5     Members of the SRS Against the Non-Serb Population."  Again, this is from

 6     the 14th of May, 1992, when the witness was still in the village.

 7        Q.   Could you please read the second paragraph in the first column,

 8     which starts:  "All troubles of the multiethnic village started ..."

 9        A.   Would you please zoom in a little bit?  Is that the article

10     you're talking about?

11        Q.   I don't see the beginning, the headline.  I cannot say.  No,

12     I think it is not the one.  It is called "Half the Village Packs Their

13     Bags."  There it is, and there's the second paragraph.  I can see this

14     now.  If you could read from the beginning of the second paragraph.

15        A.   "All the troubles of this multiethnic village started on

16     St. George's Day when Vojislav Seselj made a speech in the center of the

17     village clearly saying that there was no place here for the non-Serbs.

18     From that day on, groups of unknown people have been roaming the village

19     on a daily basis, mistreating the people, breaking into their homes and

20     looting.  Refugees from Croatia and Bosnia move by force into... "

21             Just a moment:

22             " ... move into the houses owned by Croats, Hungarians, or even

23     Serbs who give them support.  At the same time, as fear reigns in the

24     village, people -- people who have to, have to.  People who are --"

25             Oh, yes, now that's better:

Page 10634

 1             "At the same time, as fear reigns in the village, people who pack

 2     their belongings say they have nowhere to go.  Most of them have spent

 3     the last year on the frontline as JNA reservists, mostly in Vukovar.

 4     That is why they say that Croatia -- that the Croatian authorities are of

 5     no interest to them.  People withdraw into their homes as dusk --"

 6        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, thank you very much.  I think that that is enough.

 7     What I want to know from you is if this description is correct or it

 8     corresponds to your experience or what you witnessed.

 9        A.   Yes, it does correspond with this text.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I think it would be only

11     fair for the Prosecutor to ask the witness whether he agrees with the

12     contents of the indictment; and once the witness states that he does,

13     then there's no need for us to waste any more time.  This really makes no

14     sense at all.

15             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would like to have the witness read, also, a

16     second paragraph of this press article, and this is -- just a moment.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question before that.

18             Witness, this newspaper, "Borba," which I'm not familiar with,

19     this is a newspaper I assume which is published in Croatia.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  It's a newspaper -- it's a

21     daily, a Belgrade daily.

22             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would have the witness to read the second

23     paragraph after the headline:  "Which Child Do You Love More."

24        Q.   Do you see this, Mr. Baricevic?  Do you see the headline?

25        A.   No.

Page 10635

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Madam Usher, there is a headline which is called

 2     "Which Child Do You Love More," and I want to go to the next line --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now it's okay.  Now I see it.

 4     It's fine.

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I want to go to the second --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Which Child Do You Love More?"

 7             "'I am from Macedonia.  I'm married to a Croat man, and I've

 8     lived here for more than two decades,' says Marija Los [phoen].  'My

 9     husband has spent three and a half months on the front in Vukovar, and we

10     have nowhere to go, nor do we want to go anywhere.'  Over the past two or

11     three days, six houses were broken into in the village, and unknown

12     people moved into three of them by force.  The best example is Andrija

13     Cergi.  The old house where his mother used to live was given to the

14     refugees by him, and now unknown people took away his new house.  Vlado

15     Pakic's house was broken into, as well, and unknown people broke into the

16     house of Rozalija Cakic, an old woman, and mistreated her.  Franja Samu,

17     the sawmill manager, is also on the list of undesirables.  He immediately

18     tendered his resignation, but the workers refused to accept it.  They

19     demand that he remain at the head of the company that he managed so well.

20     Franja Baricevic is also packing his bags.  He works in the local office.

21     At night, when he's ordered to move out over the phone, the unknown

22     people ask him -- go as far as to ask him, 'Which child do you love

23     more?'  At the beginning of the war in Croatia" --

24        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, thank you very much.  This is all I wanted you to

25     read.

Page 10636

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Prosecutor, there is a question of

 2     translation that I think it would be useful to clarify before we move on.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Yes, indeed.  I realised it when --

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The issue, is it three months or three days,

 5     because given the dates of the article, which appears to be the 14th of

 6     May, 1992, it is, of course, of some importance to know whether houses

 7     were invaded over "the last three months," as it says in the translation,

 8     or whether this happened over "the last three days," as indicated by the

 9     witness in his reading-out of the article.  So which is it?  Is it months

10     or days?

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I don't read B/C/S, and I think it's dates --

12     days, but let the witness confirm it to us.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Days, "over the past three days."

14     That's what it says.

15             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  And another issue is, there's missing a

16     sentence, I realise now, about the sawmill --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please go ahead.

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I realise that there is missing a sentence in

19     the English translation which deals with the sawmill director, which the

20     witness read to us, and I can't find it in the English version which I

21     have here, which is part of the Court binder.  So this should be probably

22     re-translated or checked for the convenience of the Chamber.  It's not

23     necessary to move this document into evidence, because it's already

24     there.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, one small question.

Page 10637

 1             It so happens that in the article, which I have read entirely,

 2     your name is mentioned.  You are mentioned in the article.  This is

 3     something which you might or might not be aware of because you work for

 4     the local authorities.  During the night, you purportedly received

 5     telephone calls in which unknown people asked you which of your children

 6     you loved the most.  As far as you remember, did you meet a journalist

 7     from "Borba" called Branislav Gulan?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So how could he know that you

10     were receiving telephone calls during the night?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this happened earlier, and

12     people complained to each other about what was done to them.  And when my

13     daughter was intercepted, other children saw that because children went

14     home from school together, and the children saw that my daughter was

15     intercepted, and then they told their parents at home.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  The journalist

17     seems to have met a lot of people because he mentioned a whole series of

18     important figures in the village.  And when he concludes, he says, "We

19     are leaving Hrtkovci," and the village is deserted with the exception of

20     a few people.  And at the end, he says that there are some people who are

21     going to turn to the president of the republic and the prime minister

22     because they feel that in a federal republic, one cannot force people to

23     leave because they are not a Serb.  This is what the journalist says.

24             As far as you know, were there citizens, sir, that seized the

25     prime minister and the president of the republic of the situation which

Page 10638

 1     prevailed in that village?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you, I heard that

 3     a group of people from the village had gone to Belgrade, but I don't know

 4     who they were.  This is something that I heard.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they went to Belgrade?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I heard.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you read the papers at the

 8     time?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, quite frankly, I didn't

10     really feel like reading the papers.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You didn't feel like it, but

12     were the newspapers delivered to your village?  Were newspapers on sale

13     in your village?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, papers were on sale regularly,

15     every day.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Mussemeyer.

17             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  In the meantime, I could find out, just to

18     assist the honourable Judges, that this press article was also published

19     in Mr. Seselj's book, which is called "A Scream of the Shooting Stars in

20     1994 in Belgrade."  It's on the exhibit list and has the number 1310.  So

21     we can check, also, for the translation, maybe, that we can clarify this

22     issue later on, just for -- to assist the Judges.

23        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, the next question:  We heard what happened.  You

24     read what --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

Page 10639

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the Prosecutor must

 3     give you the complete information.

 4             This is a book of mine, that's true, but I am merely an editor.

 5     It's a compendium of all the worst attacks launched by journalists

 6     against me, and "The Scream of the Falling Stars," this title, this is a

 7     quote from Dragoslav Mihajlovic's well-known short story.  His title was

 8     "The Scream of a Falling Star," and I paraphrased it ironically,

 9     saying -- calling it "The Scream of the Falling Stars" because I wanted

10     to have all the journalists attacks against me and the Serb Radical Party

11     put in one place.

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

13        Q.   Mr. Baricevic --

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15             For the transcript, we need to put the following conclusion down:

16     This article, P555, was published in Mr. Seselj's book.  In this book,

17     there is a collection of all articles that were written either against

18     him or against his party, and this article is in this book.

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, it was --

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  It was the Exhibit P556 instead of P555.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Absolutely.  You're right, and

23     the Registrar also told me that it was, indeed, the P556.  Thank you.

24             You may proceed.

25             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

Page 10640

 1        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, what was your reaction after these events

 2     happened?

 3        A.   When I started receiving those threats, particularly those

 4     against my children, I packed them up one night and sent them to Croatia

 5     via Hungary.  They went to my wife's parents'.  I sent my wife and my

 6     children there.

 7        Q.   Did you remain in Hrtkovci at that time?

 8        A.   Well, I remained there for a couple of days, and I continued

 9     working as usual.  But three days later, a man came, a man from Jaksic.

10     He went into Ante Grizelj's house in Hrtkovci.  He took the house, and he

11     gave me an address telling me where my new house was to be.  It was in

12     Pavla Radica Street, number 7, in Jaksic.

13        Q.   Did you see the house before you went there?  Sorry, the question

14     was not very correct.  Did you sign a contract to get the owner -- to

15     become the owner of this house?

16        A.   I signed a contract in Pozega, in an office of an attorney-at-law

17     in Pozega.  Mira Primorac was her name.  Well, what else could I do?  You

18     have to take what was an offer.  I left two houses behind, and all I got

19     was a house that was damaged, burnt down.  But I got out alive, and my

20     children were safe.

21        Q.   Could you please describe how your house was in Hrtkovci and how

22     your house was in the village where you had to move later on?

23        A.   Well, the house in the village of Jaksic had been burned down,

24     while my house in Hrtkovci was built in 1983 with solid brick.  It was 12

25     by 11 metres.  That was the surface area.  It was my house, while our

Page 10641

 1     family house was in the same yard.  The family house was built in 1953,

 2     and it was in a very good condition.  And I forgot to mention that my

 3     house also had an attic.

 4        Q.   So you exchanged two houses for one house?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, I would like to have the 65 ter

 7     number 1976 on the monitor, and I would like to go on page 162 of the

 8     B/C/S version, the Serbian version.

 9        Q.   And, Mr. Baricevic, could you then please read the first three

10     paragraphs which follow a very long question on that page.

11             I can see the question, which is in bold, and I would like you to

12     read after the question the first three paragraphs.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, could you tell

14     us exactly where this article comes from?

15             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Sorry.  I forgot to give you this important

16     information.  It's a chapter of Mr. Seselj's book of interviews.  It's

17     called "Philippics of a Chetnik Duke."  This is one of the 80 books which

18     Mr. Seselj provided to the Prosecution on the 29th of October, 2003.

19        Q.   And Mr. Baricevic, just to repeat, could you please read us the

20     first three paragraphs?  It's Mr. Seselj's answer to a long question from

21     the journalist.

22        A.   It says:

23             "I categorically claim, with full moral and material

24     responsibility, that there have never been national persecutions,

25     so-called ethnic cleansings, under the auspices or in the organisation of

Page 10642

 1     the Serb Radical Party, never took place in the organisation of the Serb

 2     Radical Party, or will that ever be the case.  Paid witnesses who accuse

 3     us as assigned cannot -- or can they have any evidence against us.  Let

 4     them give the names, the locations and dates of places where Serb

 5     Radicals abused someone, persecuted someone, or killed someone just

 6     because they were not of Serb ethnicity."

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "In the famous ..."

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "In the famous ..."

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The best thing would be for me to

10     read this to the witness.  Obviously, he can't read very well; and

11     therefore, he violates my text, Judges.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're having a

13     difficult time reading this text?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't really see it right.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in, maybe?

16             The Registrar is telling me that it cannot be made any bigger.

17     The text cannot be made any bigger, unfortunately.  If you can't read any

18     more, it's okay.

19             Mr. Prosecutor, could you please ask a question from the quoting

20     of the text, and maybe he will say "yes" or "no" or "I don't know."

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have an objection.

22     Because the Prosecutor asked for this section to be read, then I do

23     insist that all of it be read out because if the witness paused right now

24     when the most important thing was supposed to be read out, then the

25     public will be denied the most important part.  It has to do with my

Page 10643

 1     statement, my speech, my answer to the journalist's question.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I have a hard-copy version that maybe we can try

 3     with it.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that in such situations,

 5     even the court officer who speaks the Serbian language can read it out.

 6     Why make a witness read when it's hard for him to read?

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you have the text in

 8     hard copy.  Can you read it?  If you can't read it, tell me.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot.  I cannot read it.  The

10     print is very small.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let me ask my

12     fellow Judges whether Mr. Seselj should read it out loud.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The best solution would be for

15     the interpreters to read the text, since it's on the screen, and they

16     could site-translate it.  Is it possible?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Someone has to read out the text in the

18     original for the interpreters to be able to interpret.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No.  Obviously, it's too tall

20     an order for anyone.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  We might give a hard copy to the interpreters if

22     it's easier for them to read.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, could you please

24     get the hard copy from the OTP and bring it to the interpreter's booth,

25     French and English.

Page 10644

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that means that the text

 2     will be read out in Serbian and will then be interpreted into your

 3     language, Judges.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note that according to the

 5     Rules, someone in the courtroom should read out the text, and then the

 6     booths can interpret it into the respective languages.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the interpreter read it

 8     in Serbian, and the French and English interpreters will then translate

 9     it.

10             It seems to be very difficult.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, it seems that it is

13     impossible.

14             Well, Mr. Prosecutor, you should have thought of it earlier.

15     During the proofing session, you should have checked your witness's

16     glasses.  Obviously, this is an impossibility.

17             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  We did this, and he could read because the light

18     was better.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's nothing we can do now.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, now the interpreters

21     have a copy of this text.  If I read it, then they can check whether I'm

22     reading it right, and then they can tell you because I assume that before

23     you did not trust me to read it properly, but now you do have someone who

24     can do the check for you.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since the interpreters have the

Page 10645

 1     hard copy, please read the excerpt in your own language, Mr. Seselj.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm reading after the witness read

 3     it, right?

 4             "In the famous Hrtkovci blown out of proportion in the media that

 5     have been portrayed as crown evidence of our alleged tortures, there were

 6     no killings on ethnic grounds.  There was a killing out of avarice.  It

 7     so happened that the victim was a Croat, but the killers were apprehended

 8     and will be held responsible.  It is true that some people did move out

 9     of the village, but Croats did it of their own free will.  No one forced

10     them to do that, let alone members of our party.  Of their own free will,

11     voluntarily, they exchanged properties and houses with Serbs from

12     Croatia, and in these transactions, in the organisation of the Catholic

13     Church, usually they fared better.  However, Hrtkovci continues to be

14     used as proof," quote/unquote --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.

16             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I only wanted to have the witness read the

17     paragraph which Mr. Seselj finished some sentences ago, not the next one.

18     That was my intention.  If he wants to continue, it's not -- I wouldn't

19     object.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think these two sentences at the

21     end are very important, but then whatever you decide.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Read those two sentences.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "However, Hrtkovci continues to be

24     used as proof" - and "proof" is under quotation marks - "that even in the

25     territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, there was ethnic

Page 10646

 1     cleansing.  This is contributed to by many of our traitors who are

 2     wandering around the world politically prostituting themselves and lying

 3     in accordance with the orders issued by their wealthy masters, the

 4     builders of a new world order."

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seselj, for

 6     having read this out.

 7             Mr. Prosecutor, could you please put your question to the

 8     witness.

 9             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

10        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, was it your experience -- is it correct what

11     Mr. Seselj said in this article, that no Croats have been forced to leave

12     Hrtkovci, especially not from SRS members?

13        A.   That is not the absolute truth.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you are one of the -- you

15     were one of the witnesses who actually signed an exchange of houses.  You

16     told us that you had a brick house, another house that had been built in

17     1953, so your personal case is very interesting for us because you signed

18     the contract at an attorney-at-law, Ms. Primorac.  How did you manage to

19     go to this attorney-at-law?  Did you go on your own volition, or did

20     someone tell you, "Go see Primorac"?  Tell us exactly how this happened.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  The house was a

22     newly-built one in 1983, in 1983.  The old one was built in 1953.

23             As for this house, for which I got the address, and I went to

24     that address, actually --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who gave you this address,

Page 10647

 1     Primorac's address?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already mentioned that

 3     Spasojevic came to Grizelj's house.  Spasojevic was from Jaksic, and he

 4     immediately chose the house and gave me an address for Branko

 5     Milosavljevic, and I exchanged houses with him because that is what was

 6     said at the rally, that Croats would get addresses of Serbs from Croatia.

 7     I got this address, and I went there after I had already transferred my

 8     wife and children to Croatia.  So you take whatever you can.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is not extremely clear.  A

10     person called Spasojevic came to Grizelj's house, and Spasojevic came

11     from Jaksic?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And he gave you the address of

14     Branko Milosavljevic's house, who is the person that you were going to

15     exchange houses with; is that it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely, because they were

17     neighbours.  Their houses were about 150 metres away from each other.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you hadn't wanted to do

19     this, could you have said, "I'm not interested, I'd rather stay here"?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were all sorts of threats and

21     tortures every day.  I had already moved my children out so that they

22     could stay alive, my wife, too.  I had to choose the best option out of

23     many bad ones.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Then you go to the

25     attorney-at-law, Primorac, to sign the contract.  Who gave you the

Page 10648

 1     address of this attorney?  Who told you to go see Primorac?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I addressed the owner

 3     of the house, Branko Milosavljevic.  Then we went to see the lawyer, the

 4     attorney.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And the lawyer

 6     prepared all the papers?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had already prepared all the

 8     documentation.  I took what they gave me so that I could live in peace.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The new house that

10     you obtained, was it better or worse than the house you had before?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry.  We don't seem to be

12     understanding each other.  That house had been old and torched.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You lost in this deal.  You had

14     a good house, and you obtained a burnt, old house.  You were tricked?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I lost my house that had been

16     totally new.  For the building of a house, you need two generations to be

17     involved.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I understand now.

19             Mr. Prosecutor, you may proceed.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

21        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, do you know if the Catholic Church was involved in

22     this exchange of property?

23        A.   As far as I know, the Catholic Church did not take part in the

24     exchange of properties in any way.  People, Catholics, went to get

25     certificates of baptism and of marriages to prove that they are Croat

Page 10649

 1     Catholics in order to regulate their papers and documentation for the

 2     future, in terms of future documents, that is.

 3        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, one last question.  At the beginning of your

 4     testimony, you told us that about 75 per cent of the inhabitants of

 5     Hrtkovci were Croats.  Do you know the percentage of Croats who live

 6     today in Hrtkovci?

 7        A.   I don't know what the percentage is, but I do know that 460

 8     households moved out of Hrtkovci.  I know that within one month's time

 9     after the rally, 300 households had moved out.

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you, Mr. Baricevic.  I have no further

11     questions.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One follow-up question after

13     this last question by the Prosecutor.

14             Let me come back to this article by Branislav Gulan in "Borba."

15     In this article - you'll have to look at it; you can trust me - he says

16     that there are 20 different ethnicities in this village.  This was a very

17     composite village, and he says that were 1.079 Croats, 558 Serbs, 516

18     Hungarians, 452 Yugoslavs, 4 Macedonians, and some Slovaks, Russians,

19     Albanians, Montenegrins and Romas.  When looking at all these figures, we

20     note that the Serbs are in a minority, 558 Serbs.  Maybe there were Serbs

21     among the Yugoslavs, so the figure for Serbs might be a bit higher, but

22     Croats and Hungarians were in a majority.

23             Now, after all these flats were exchanged, should we understand

24     that the majority of Croats had left?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, most Croats had moved out of

Page 10650

 1     Hrtkovci.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  You were a victim in

 3     this house exchange because you obtained an old, burnt house and whereas

 4     to build a nice house it takes at least two generations.  And your own

 5     house had been built in the 1980s.  So you'd been had in this exchange;

 6     you lost.

 7             Now, eventually, did you get any compensation, or did you lose

 8     everything?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never got any compensation.  The

10     only thing I managed to do was, with the assistance of two witnesses or

11     two guarantors, rather, to get a small loan to build up the house.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  That's all.

13             So you were swindled.  You lost in this exchange, obviously.

14             Mr. Prosecutor.

15             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would like to move the last article from

16     Mr. Seselj's book where we read from into evidence.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's give it a

18     number.  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, please, it is very

20     important for the Prosecutor to say what year this book was published.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The article published in

22     Mr. Seselj's book, could you tell us exactly, what is the date for this

23     article?

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  According to my information, the date is 1994,

25     and it was published in Belgrade.

Page 10651

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 1994, Belgrade.  Very well.

 2             My fellow Judge has a question.

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, do you know anything

 4     about the murder of Milan Stefanac, or did this happen after you had

 5     left?  Do you know anything about this?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about this.  It happened

 7     after I had left.  I heard about the killing of Milan Stefanac and that

 8     he was found in the neighbouring village.  I don't know about the

 9     details.  I don't know anything.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 01976 will be

13     Exhibit number P562.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It would probably be good to

15     have the break right now.  We will resume around 20 to 6.00, and

16     Mr. Seselj can then start his cross-examination.  It's best to proceed

17     this way.

18             Let's break for 20 minutes.

19                           --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Court is back in session.

22             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor for your cross-examination.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Baricevic, when you came to Slavonska Pozega

25     in May 1992 and later on, did you talk at all with the Croatian police or

Page 10652

 1     any other state services of the Croatian state?

 2        A.   When I came to Croatia, I went to get the papers, the ID papers,

 3     and I don't see what you're driving at when you talk about interviews or

 4     talks.

 5        Q.   Well, you can't really see that.  You're not supposed to see

 6     that.  You're supposed to answer my question.

 7        A.   No, I have not talked to anyone.

 8        Q.   So you did not talk to anyone, to the secret service or any other

 9     state organs?

10        A.   No, no.

11        Q.   In the 16 years, you never gave any statements about what

12     happened to you in Hrtkovci, as you allege, to any of the Croatian

13     authorities?  That's what I mean.

14        A.   Well, that's not the secret police.

15        Q.   What is it, then?

16        A.   That's the court.

17        Q.   Which court?

18        A.   The Military Prosecutor's Office in Osijek.

19        Q.   And when did you give a statement to them?

20        A.   I can't recall the exact date, but it was sometime in 1994, let's

21     say.

22        Q.   And what did you say in that statement of yours?

23        A.   The same things that I stated here.

24        Q.   Everything?

25        A.   Yes, everything.

Page 10653

 1        Q.   And what did the Military Prosecutor's Office in Osijek actually

 2     do?  What was it that they were investigating?

 3        A.   I don't know.  I have no idea.

 4        Q.   Well, how come, then, that they summoned you in 1994?  Did you go

 5     to Osijek from Slavonska Pozega?

 6        A.   No, they came to my place.

 7        Q.   To Slavonska Pozega?  To Jaksic, which is a suburb of

 8     Slavonska Pozega?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Who came to see you?

11        A.   I don't know.

12        Q.   How many people came to see you?

13        A.   Two.

14        Q.   Were they in uniform?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   So they were in plain clothes.  What did they tell you, then?

17        A.   They asked me the same questions that the Prosecutor asked me

18     now.

19        Q.   About everything that allegedly happened to you in Hrtkovci; is

20     that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And did they put together a statement on the basis of that

23     interview?  Did they tape the interview?

24        A.   I don't know.  I didn't see them make any recordings.

25        Q.   But did they put together a statement that you signed?

Page 10654

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Did they just take notes, then?

 3        A.   Well, they did write down something, but I don't know what that

 4     is.

 5        Q.   Did you have any other interviews with any other state organs?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   So that was the only one?

 8        A.   Not with the Croatian state organs.

 9        Q.   And how did you get in contact with the OTP?

10        A.   Well, they came to see me.

11        Q.   To Slavonska Pozega?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   What did they tell you?

14        A.   They asked me how I -- what the situation was like down there,

15     and I told them the same thing that I told you now.

16        Q.   What year was that?

17        A.   Well, that was five or six years ago.

18        Q.   How many times did you talk to the investigators from The Hague?

19        A.   Well, I don't know.  Just a few.

20        Q.   What does it mean, "just a few"?  One, two?

21        A.   Two, two.

22        Q.   In what year?

23        A.   Last year.

24        Q.   Did you sign any statements last year?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 10655

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I did not receive the

 2     statement that this witness provided to the investigators of the OTP last

 3     year.  I think that this is such a major issue that it actually renders

 4     my cross-examination pointless.  I only have the statement that he gave

 5     in the year 2002.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's try and understand what

 7     this is about.

 8             Witness, we don't have it.  Last year, did you give the OTP a new

 9     statement?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  That's the only statement.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you answered Mr. Seselj,

12     you said, "Yes."  Mr. Seselj asked you whether there was one or two, and

13     you said, "Two."  And Mr. Seselj said, "In what year?"  And you said,

14     "Last year."

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One statement was given to the

16     Tribunal in The Hague, and the people who came from Osijek, that was the

17     Military Prosecutor's Office.  They came to see me.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's a statement which

19     you've signed, since we have it, dated 28th of September, 2002, given to

20     the Prosecution.  Was there another statement, or wasn't there one made

21     here?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the only one.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

24             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   What happened last year, then?

Page 10656

 1        A.   Last year, an investigator came to see me, but it was just to

 2     talk to me.

 3        Q.   And what did he want from you in this conversation?

 4        A.   To confirm the statement that I had given.

 5        Q.   And did you confirm it?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   Did you sign anything at that time?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   How could you then confirm it?  Orally?

10        A.   Well, I read the statement.

11        Q.   But did you sign it once you'd read it?

12        A.   Well, it had already been signed.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Judge, you can see that I am

14     right.  The Prosecution has to have a record of this interview or

15     conversation that took place last year.  There has to be a note or a

16     record of it.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you had this conversation

18     last year with the investigator, did he give you his name?  Who was it?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paulo.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He's Italian?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He showed you something.  Did

23     he make you sign something or not?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he did not ask anything of the

25     sort.  He just gave me the statement to read.  It had been translated

Page 10657

 1     into Croatian, so I was to read it.  I didn't sign anything.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You read the 2002 statement,

 3     the only statement?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only statement.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer or Ms. Dahl, the

 6     investigator, Paolo Stocchi, did he prepare a report, or was it

 7     unofficial?

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I'm not aware that he prepared a report.  I'm

 9     pretty sure that he did this, but if I may help to find out of this

10     confusion.

11             According to my records, there exists one statement the witness

12     gave.  You mentioned it already, on the 27th or 28th of September, 2002.

13     And we have a 92 bis package where the witness signed more or less again

14     the same statement that is dated the 1st of December, 2005.  It's a

15     92 ter -- 92 bis package, and let me -- it's in -- completely in the

16     Serbian or Croatian language, and it was given before the presiding

17     officer, Marco Bonavello [phoen] on the 1st of December, 2005.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This 92 bis statement was for

19     which trial ?

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Let me check this.  I have it here.  I guess

21     it's for the trial against Mr. Seselj.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, you had

23     contemplated using a 92 bis statement.

24             Mr. Seselj, you've got your answer.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Mussemeyer now

Page 10658

 1     said that this statement from 2005 is more or less the same as the 2002

 2     statement.  I'm interested in both more and in less.  I'm not interested

 3     in the same at all.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If there is a 2005 statement,

 5     Mr. Seselj should be made aware of it, more or less.  If it's more, then

 6     it is against him.  Otherwise, it's exculpatory.  Whatever the case may

 7     be, he should have been given the statement.  What happened, again?

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I cannot tell you at the moment if it hasn't

 9     been disclosed.  I'm pretty sure that it has.  I can read what is said

10     here, that:

11             "The attached statement, dated the 27th-28th of September, 2002,

12     and certified by the undersigned on 1st December, 2005, the said witness

13     is identified as the author."

14             This is the normal 92 bis procedure which was done at that time

15     before the Rules changed, but I will check if this has been disclosed to

16     Mr. Seselj.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

19             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, did you talk to the investigators in The Hague in

21     1995?

22        A.   In 1995, well, I can't really remember what time it was, but as

23     far as statements are concerned, I only gave one statement.

24        Q.   When you say "Rujan," that's the Croatian term for "September"?

25        A.   Well, "September."

Page 10659

 1        Q.   So the term "Rujan," what month would that be?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  Perhaps the

 3     Prosecutor has something to say.

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I found the disclosure date of this 92 bis

 5     package.  It's the ERN number 0465-6571 to 6580, and that was disclosed

 6     to Mr. Seselj on the 10th of July, 2006.  And the receipt was number 23,

 7     and I think Mr. Seselj signed it.  I have to check this.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, it seems that this

 9     has been disclosed to you on the 10th of July, 2006.  The receipt

10     number is number 23.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I received this

12     disclosure, the 2002 statement, twice.  It was retyped in the meantime,

13     but there is the same year indicated on both, 2002.  There is no mention

14     of 2005 or 2006.  And now the Prosecution has to prove that it disclosed

15     this to me.  So I do have two statements.  The text is identical.

16     Different typewriters, but the same date, the 27th and the 28th of

17     September, 2002.

18        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, I asked you whether in 1995 you provided any

19     statements to the investigators from The Hague.

20        A.   Well, I've already replied.  I can't recall what the year was,

21     but that was the only statement that I gave to the investigators of the

22     Tribunal in The Hague.

23        Q.   I have a document from the Prosecution.  The number is 0307-3665,

24     where it says that a translator of the OTP confirms that on the 28th of

25     September, 1995, that she interpreted a conversation, an interview with

Page 10660

 1     you.  The date is 1995, yet I never received any statement -- any record

 2     of it.  But I do have this document that was disclosed by mistake to me.

 3     Let me repeat the number if you want me to.

 4             So it's 1995, an interview was conducted with you.  I have only

 5     one piece of written evidence to prove it.  It is a confirmation, a

 6     certificate by the interpreter, indicating that she interpreted that

 7     interview for you.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, don't you think

 9     there might be a mistake as far as the date is concerned?  The 28th of

10     September, 1995, or the 28th of September, 2002?  Maybe it's one and the

11     same thing.

12             Witness, you must tell the truth.  Mr. Seselj is working a lot,

13     sees all the details, and nothing escapes him.  He has a document before

14     him.  He gives us ERN number 0307-3665, which seems to indicate that the

15     interpreter from the OTP purportedly said something concerning one

16     Croatian word, "ulan."  I'm not quite sure what it is.  So my question is

17     very simple.

18             In 1995, i.e., a very short time after the events which took

19     place in 1992, did you meet an investigator from the OTP, or did you only

20     meet him in 2002?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met up with the investigators,

22     and when I made my statement, that was the only statement that I ever

23     gave to investigators, just this one statement.  I can't remember dates

24     now, when it was that this actually happened, but it was only one

25     statement.

Page 10661

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Mussemeyer.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  This investigator certification which the

 3     accused is referring to belongs to the 92 bis package from 2005.  It has

 4     the same ERN number, 0307 and then 3665, which the accused was quoting

 5     from.  There must be a mistake on the date.  It's, in fact -- it says the

 6     28th of -- I don't know the English name of the month, but from --

 7     September 1995.  But what the accused omitted is that there is a second

 8     ERN number on the same page, which has the number 0465-6579, and it

 9     contains the 92 bis package from December.  So there is a mistake in the

10     date, but in fact it has been disclosed, and it's also proof that this

11     92 ter -- 92 bis package has been disclosed to Mr. Seselj.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you for this

13     clarification.

14             Witness, you only saw the investigators for your statement in

15     2002 and not in 1995.

16             Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Mr. President, he saw

18     Paolo Pastore-Stocchi in 2005, as well, or last year as he said a few

19     moments ago; the witness, I mean.  What remains unclear is what happened

20     in 1995.  If this is a mistake and if an OTP typist can make that kind of

21     a mistake, instead of typing out "2002," type out "1995," then I really

22     don't know what kind of psychologist could explain that kind of error, or

23     typing "2005" instead of "2002" or "2008."  However, that might be

24     possible.  However, if somebody lives in 2002 and types out "1995,"

25     that's a mistake that's impossible, or perhaps it may happen.  Maybe

Page 10662

 1     there's some new diseases that came up in the world now.  I've been in

 2     prison for a long time, so perhaps there is these new illnesses that have

 3     cropped up behind the prison walls.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the time being, the

 5     Prosecution is saying that it must be a typo.  "1995" was typed in

 6     instead of "2002."  That is the explanation provided by the Prosecution.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   When you talked to these investigators from The Hague in 2002,

10     you talked to Paolo Pastore-Stocchi; isn't that right?

11        A.   I did talk to him, but I don't know what the year was.

12        Q.   Did you talk to him both times or only once?

13        A.   I talked to him twice.  However, I don't remember dates.

14        Q.   All right.  You talked to him twice?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you say to him that at the rally in Hrtkovci, I asked for all

17     children from mixed marriages to be killed, right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You said that to him?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And when you said that to him, what was his reaction?  I'm really

22     interested in that.  Was he surprised?

23        A.   Well, I don't know whether he was surprised, but that's the way

24     it was written down.

25        Q.   Did he just listen to you calmly and then write -- and then he

Page 10663

 1     wrote up this statement, and you signed it without a comment of any kind?

 2        A.   Well, I signed the statement.

 3        Q.   Without him asking you anything in relation to that?

 4        A.   Well, we talked.  I don't know about the details.  I don't know

 5     about individual details.

 6        Q.   All right.  If you don't know, you don't know.  I can understand

 7     that as age advances, people start losing their memory and various

 8     processes start in people's heads, but when did you come to The Hague to

 9     testify now?

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  A follow-up

11     question.

12             The question put to you by Mr. Seselj is extremely important.  On

13     the 27th and 28th of September, 2002, you meet the investigator of the

14     OTP, and you talk to him, and the conversation lasts for how long?  How

15     many hours?  Do you remember?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We met twice, two days, eight or

17     nine hours both times.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you told him a lot of

19     things, and then he prepared your statement, which you signed and which

20     was read back to you in your language.  This is what is written in the

21     document.

22             When you talked to the investigator, did you tell him, "I

23     remember that Mr. Seselj in his speech said that children born from mixed

24     marriages should be killed," and he said that again, or you said that

25     Mr. Seselj talked about mixed marriages, and you didn't say that the

Page 10664

 1     children should be killed?  What did you tell the investigator,

 2     precisely?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to repeat what

 4     it was that I had said.  He had said that mixed marriages should be

 5     divorced and that the children should be killed.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj said that?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I heard.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you said that to the

 9     investigator, who translated that.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

11             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   When did you come here to The Hague to testify in these

13     proceedings?

14        A.   I came on Sunday.

15        Q.   It's Tuesday today, right?  So you've been here for two days?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   How many conversations did you have with the representatives of

18     the OTP over those two days?

19        A.   One.

20        Q.   Did you go through your entire statement?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   When you came to this section where you claim that I had stated

23     at the rally that all children from mixed marriages should be killed, did

24     the representative of the OTP caution you that you should perhaps give

25     this some thought, whether that is what actually happened?

Page 10665

 1        A.   They asked me whether you said that.

 2        Q.   And you confirmed?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And then they kept silent about it?

 5        A.   They said, "Well, if that's the way it is, then let's move on."

 6        Q.   So that was this very brief conversation that you had, and that's

 7     how it ended?

 8        A.   Well, yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You said that the tensions in Hrtkovci started at the

10     time of Milosevic's rallies in the 1980s, right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   What you call Milosevic's rallies were actually the rallies of

13     the Kosovo Serbs, right?

14        A.   Well, I don't know whose they were, these rallies, but these

15     rallies were held from Kosovo to Vojvodina.  They were Milosevic's.

16        Q.   Says who?

17        A.   Well, that's what people said, that they were Milosevic's

18     rallies.

19        Q.   Were these rallies that were led by people from Kosovo, like

20     Kosta Bulatovic, Miroslav Solevic, and many others, Milorad Albijanic and

21     so on?  I can't even remember them all now.

22        A.   Well, I didn't say -- well, I've already said that I did not deal

23     in politics, and I really couldn't say who it was that was in charge of

24     these rallies.

25        Q.   Did Kosovo Serbs consider themselves highly jeopardised by the

Page 10666

 1     Albanian separatists?

 2        A.   Well, I was not in Kosovo, and I wouldn't really -- I mean, well,

 3     I wouldn't comment on that.

 4        Q.   What's the reason for you to be so restless about these rallies?

 5     Did anybody mention Croats at these rallies?

 6        A.   I stated clearly that individuals at the time -- well, I mean,

 7     let me put this in a simpler way.  Their heads were raised.

 8        Q.   What individuals?

 9        A.   Individuals in the village.

10        Q.   How did they raise their heads?

11        A.   Well, they wore Chetnik caps, and they shouted, "This is Serbia,

12     this is not Croatia," things like that.  As I said, these small

13     provocations started.

14        Q.   Why were you bothered by the Chetnik caps?  These are traditional

15     Serbian caps, traditional Serbian insignia, the Serb coat of arms.

16        A.   Well, I said that this was a calm, peaceful village of

17     hardworking people who were not interested in politics.  They were only

18     interested in working and working yet again.

19        Q.   If somebody chants, "Serbia, Serbia," or, "This is Serbia," why

20     does that bother you?  Hrtkovci has always been Serbia, right?

21        A.   Well, nothing bothers me.

22        Q.   Why would somebody say, "This is not Croatia" when everybody knew

23     that it was not Serbia and Srem could certainly not be Croatia in any

24     way?

25        A.   Well, I did not say that it was Croatia or that it was Serbia.  I

Page 10667

 1     minded my own business, and I worked honestly in that village where I

 2     was.

 3        Q.   I'm not interested in what it was that you were doing.  How come

 4     you made this statement - that's what I'm interested in - that the

 5     tensions started from Milosevic's rallies?  And you are not in a position

 6     to state that to me, and you did state that.  How come?

 7        A.   Well, I've explained that these were individuals and that they

 8     started a bit --

 9        Q.   What?

10        A.   Well, a bit of unrest in the village.

11        Q.   What kind of unrest?

12        A.   Well, I've already explained that some people, I mean -- well,

13     wore caps and sang songs, and that is what caused unrest among the

14     people.

15        Q.   Why would songs bother you or cause unrest?  Were Croats referred

16     to in these songs?

17        A.   Well, I don't know if they were.

18        Q.   So why would that disturb you, Serb patriotic songs?  Why would

19     that disturb you?

20        A.   Well, I don't know.  I don't know whether these Serb songs were

21     patriotic or whatever, but I said once, and I repeat again, that that is

22     when unrest started.

23        Q.   But you cannot explain to me what kind of unrest this was.  How

24     was that reflected?

25        A.   Well, I've told you.

Page 10668

 1        Q.   Somebody sang a song or wore a Serb coat of arms on his cockade?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   So what's strange about that, and what is disturbing about that?

 4     We are ridding ourselves of communism.  We are renewing old Serb

 5     traditions.  Are you sorry that we've rid ourselves of communism?  And

 6     you did not leave the League of Communists in 1980 when Tito died.  It

 7     was only in 1990 when the League of Communists fell apart, right?

 8        A.   No, no, when Tito died.

 9        Q.   Who did you return your membership card to?

10        A.   I left it at the premises of the local commune.

11        Q.   What does the local commune have to do with the League of

12     Communists?

13        A.   The party secretary came there.

14        Q.   Why did you go on paying membership fees?

15        A.   I didn't.

16        Q.   But the records say that you did.  Well, all right.

17             You say in your statement, the one that you signed, that in 1990

18     the Serbian Renewal Movement and the Serb Radical Party, led by

19     Vuk Draskovic, or rather, Vojislav Seselj, opened their branches in

20     Hrtkovci.  That is on page 2 of your statement, paragraph 4?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   How come in 1990 when the Serb Radical Party did not even exist

23     then?

24        A.   I know that people were signing up.  I don't know if it existed

25     or not, but people were signing up.

Page 10669

 1        Q.   How can people sign up into a party that doesn't exist?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know.  I don't know.

 3        Q.   It is possible, but it's hard to explain, right?

 4        A.   No, no.  You should ask them.

 5        Q.   Who is "them"?

 6        A.   These members.

 7        Q.   How can I ask them when they did not exist in 1990, when it did

 8     not exist at the time, and you claim that they signed up then and that

 9     the Serb Radical Party opened its branch in Hrtkovci, and the Serb

10     Radical Party was established on the 23rd of February, 1991?  You claim

11     that a year before that, it had its branch in Hrtkovci and the people

12     were signing up?

13        A.   Well, perhaps I got the date wrong.

14        Q.   All right.  Maybe you got the date wrong, but you have been

15     making way too many mistakes.  You say that Ostoja Sibincic was president

16     of the local SPO and Aleksa Ejic, president of the local branch of the

17     Serb Radical Party, right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Aleksa Ejic was never a member of the Serb Radical Party.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, we gave or disclosed to Mr. Seselj

22     proofing notes where we were correcting this.  When Mr. Baricevic was

23     proofed, he realised this mistake, and this has been disclosed to

24     Mr. Seselj last week.  So he shouldn't insist on this.  He knows that he

25     has corrected himself and shouldn't try to confuse the witness.  He knows

Page 10670

 1     about this.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj, the

 3     Prosecutor told you that the witness had made -- had confused things.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, what should I

 5     care about what the Prosecutor notified me or not?  I am trying to find

 6     chinks in the armour in the testimony of this witness here and in his

 7     previous statement.  And as far as the information about the proofing

 8     session is concerned, that's not something that I can rely on.  Of

 9     course, I can rely on it if there are any weaknesses there, but now the

10     fact that the Prosecutor is trying to fix the mistakes that the witness

11     has made, that's of no concern to me.  You can see that the witness was

12     wrong about the year when the SRS was formed.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There was a mistake, and the

14     witness has recognised it.  However, you were putting a very important

15     question on Ostoja Sibincic, so please proceed.

16             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   How can you say that Aleksa Ejic was the president of the local

18     branch of the Serb Radical Party when he never was a member of the Serb

19     Radical Party?  The whole of Hrtkovci knows that, and Aleksa Ejic

20     confirmed that when he came here to testify before you.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

22             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  It's, again, the same.  This has been corrected

23     in the proofing notes.  It has been disclosed to Mr. Seselj.  If you want

24     to, I can read what has been clarified, and I think Mr. Seselj shouldn't

25     use this any longer because it's not correct.

Page 10671

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, this is not the way that the

 2     witness's statement can be corrected.  The witness confirmed now that

 3     Aleksa Ejic was the president of the Serbian Radical Party.  He confirmed

 4     that here and now in front of you, and it is obvious that this witness

 5     was turned into a tool, but he is unable to fulfill his task, to

 6     accomplish his task.  And please do not allow the Prosecutor to interrupt

 7     my cross-examination in this manner because the witness confirmed here in

 8     front of all that Aleksa Ejic was the president of the local branch of

 9     the Serbian Radical Party.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, I thought I

11     understand, when you started your -- the beginning of the in-chief, that

12     Mr. Aleksa Ejic had these political functions, but obviously it seems

13     that during the proofing, he was also wrong?  He also made a mistake?

14             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  What I can read to you -- the proofing notes are

15     very short.  It says --

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please proceed.  Do

17     that.

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The ICTY statement, page 2, submitted on 27th

19     and 28th September, 2002.  Baricevic stated that Aco Ejic was the

20     president of the SRS branch in Hrtkovci.  During the proofing, Baricevic

21     stated that Ejic was the president of the local SPO --"

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel is kindly asked to slow down when

23     reading.

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Excuse me.

25             "During the proofing, Baricevic stated that Ejic was the

Page 10672

 1     president of the local SPO party of Vuk Draskovic.  In this respect,

 2     during the proofing, Baricevic said that what he said in the ICTY

 3     statement about Ejic being president of the SRS in Hrtkovci was a

 4     mistake.  Baricevic confirmed that there was no SRS office in Hrtkovci,

 5     at least until Baricevic left Hrtkovci."

 6             And there's a second paragraph.  It says:

 7             "During the proofing, Baricevic stated that Ostoja Sibincic was

 8     working together with the Radicals in Hrtkovci.  In the ICTY statement,

 9     page 2, Baricevic stated that in 1991, Sibincic was an active member of

10     the SRS.  Baricevic does not actually know --"

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel is kindly asked to slow down for

12     interpretation.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, will I be cross-examining

14     Mr. Mussemeyer as the representative of the Prosecution?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please let Mr. Mussemeyer

16     finish reading this note that he sent to you.  I had no knowledge of it,

17     so please continue.  There was -- what was it after "Baricevic does not

18     know"?

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  "Baricevic does not actually know whether

20     Sibincic was officially a member of the SRS or whether he was only

21     hanging around with SRS sympathizers."

22             These are the proofing notes which we have disclosed to the

23     accused.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It was important to

25     know this.

Page 10673

 1             Mr. Seselj.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is much more important to note

 3     that today, in his examination-in-chief, this witness here in front of

 4     you, you had that in the transcript, stated that Aleksa Ejic founded the

 5     Serbian Radical Party and that Ostoja Sibincic founded the Serbian

 6     Renewal Movement in Hrtkovci.  You can see that in his

 7     examination-in-chief.  Please, refer yourselves to the transcript.

 8             What do I care what it says in the proofing session notes

 9     prepared by the Prosecution?  The witness confirmed today in the

10     courtroom that Aleksa Ejic founded the Serbian Radical Party in Hrtkovci.

11     And as for what is written there, well, the Prosecution was amazed when

12     they realised whom they brought here to testify, and that is why now

13     they're showing this information based on the proofing notes.  I'm not

14     interested in that.  I'm interested in what the witness said in the

15     examination-in-chief where he said, and then he confirmed it on cross,

16     that Aleksa Ejic founded the Serbian Radical Party in Hrtkovci.  That's

17     what the witness said in the examination-in-chief and on cross, and now

18     the Prosecution is trying to correct the witness.  Well, this really

19     cannot be.  This is impermissible.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21             Witness, in the examination-in-chief, you said that Aleksa Ejic

22     had created the Serbian Radical Party in Hrtkovci.  I remember that.  It

23     now seems that you had corrected this during the proofing session.  So

24     why is it that when you answered Mr. Mussemeyer's question early this

25     afternoon, you said something that you had corrected earlier?  I can't

Page 10674

 1     reconcile this.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I may have been

 3     wrong, but I always thought that Ostoja Sibincic was a member of the

 4     Serbian Radical Party.  I did mention Aco Ejic here once, but I kept

 5     saying that Ostoja was a member of the Radical Party.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now I have two questions for

 7     you.  I would like to know whether Mr. Aleksa Ejic set up the Serbian

 8     Radical Party in your village.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for a time he was the

10     president, but later on he withdrew.  Since his wife was Hungarian, he

11     realised that no good could come out of this, and that's why he withdrew.

12     He was not active.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A second question, now.

14             Ostoja Sibincic, was he a member of the Serbian Radical Party?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He says that he was a member.  I

16     did not see his membership card.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, the witness again denied

18     what is contained in the proofing notes.  He repeated once again.  When

19     you, Mr. President, asked him, he confirmed that Aleksa Ejic was the

20     president of the Serbian Radical Party in Hrtkovci, so the information

21     contained in the proofing notes is a forgery.  It's a fabrication.  It

22     misrepresents what the witness stated here in a courtroom in the

23     examination-in-chief, on cross, and in response to the Judges' questions.

24     So now we can see what the Prosecution is doing in the proofing sessions,

25     what it makes use of.

Page 10675

 1             Should I continue, then?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   You said that as early as in 1991, a group of 160 refugees had

 5     come from Slavonia and that it engendered tensions in Hrtkovci; is that

 6     right?

 7        A.   Yes, 160 refugees came.

 8        Q.   And you said that the local commune provided housing for the

 9     refugees, and that provided them with stoves, food, things of that

10     nature?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Where did the local commune find housing for them?

13        A.   In the various houses.  If somebody had two houses, if somebody's

14     parents died, then they were put in older houses.

15        Q.   In the houses where nobody lived?

16        A.   Yes, for a while.

17        Q.   And you also provided them with houses of people who had not

18     lived in Hrtkovci for a long time, but they gave their approval for their

19     houses to be used in this manner?  You spoke to them on the phone, and

20     they gave their approval?

21        A.   I think there was only one such house.

22        Q.   Well, there were several, but you don't have to recall every

23     single detail.  It is important for me to confirm that this kind of thing

24     happened.  And then the refugees who started to move into the empty

25     houses started entering some of the empty houses without asking anyone

Page 10676

 1     because they didn't want to keep their wives, their children out in the

 2     rain; they needed to find a roof to put over their heads?

 3        A.   Well, they moved in by force.  They broke into houses.

 4        Q.   Into empty houses?

 5        A.   No, not into empty houses.

 6        Q.   Well, they were furnished?

 7        A.   Yes, furnished, appliances.

 8        Q.   They were empty in terms of the inhabitants?  Nobody lived in

 9     them.  That's what I meant.  Is that so?  But what do you mean if -- what

10     do you think, if somebody flees from Croatia because he's faced with

11     threats that his family would be killed, and this person comes to Serbia

12     with his wife and children, and he sees an empty house, nobody had lived

13     there for years; do you think that this person would really care about

14     laws and would not move into this house but would rather keep the wife

15     and the children in the forest somewhere?  What's more logical than for

16     such a person to get into an empty apartment or house and to live there

17     until he is expelled?

18        A.   I don't think so.

19        Q.   You don't think so.  You stated here that Sibincic transferred in

20     late 1991 to the Serbian Radical Party, and when the Judges asked you,

21     you said that in May 1992, you don't know whether he was formally a

22     member of the Serbian Radical Party; is that right?

23        A.   No, that's not so.

24        Q.   It is so.

25        A.   I said that I never saw his membership card.

Page 10677

 1        Q.   So how did you know that he joined the Serbian Radical Party at

 2     all?

 3        A.   Well, how did I know?  I knew because the people talked that the

 4     Radicals -- that they are Radicals and that he was their chief.

 5        Q.   The chief of the Radicals.  And what happened with Milan Zilic,

 6     the Radical who founded the party in Hrtkovci?  He was the chairman of

 7     the local board.

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   So although there was a living president of the Serbian Radical

10     Party, Milan Zilic, you invent some other presidents?

11        A.   I know that all the dirty work was done by Ostoja Sibincic and

12     that he represented himself as the president of the Radical Party.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we know that you were

14     a member of the League of Communists.  We know that you also had some

15     municipal duties for some while, for some time.  You seem to be a person

16     that is able to understand things.  If what you're saying is true, if it

17     is true that Mr. Ostoja Sibincic was the president of the Serbian Radical

18     Party in Hrtkovci, then Mr. Seselj comes to deliver his speech on May

19     6th; he should be on the stage to say, "Brothers and sisters of Serbia,

20     let me introduce Mr. Seselj, who's going to speak to you," but it is Ilic

21     instead that takes the floor to introduce Seselj.  How can you explain

22     that?  How can you explain that the president of the Serbian Radical

23     Party is not on the stage when Mr. Seselj is coming, and there are two

24     people that are there to prepare for his entrance, you know, Mr. Zilic

25     and this lady, Mr. Seselj being the third, and we have no mention of

Page 10678

 1     Sibincic at all on stage?  Do you find this normal?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, well, I don't know.

 3     The only thing that I do know is that Ostoja Sibincic was in charge of

 4     the people.  He gave them the addresses.  He led the Radicals.  Now, as

 5     to the actual functions, who was the secretary, who was the treasurer,

 6     who was really in charge, I don't know that because I was not a member of

 7     that party.  But the one thing that I know is I know the people who

 8     instructed other people to cause this kind of misery in the village.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, proceed.

10             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Well, in 1991, did the Serb refugees from Croatia come only to

12     Hrtkovci, or did they go all over Serbia, especially in Vojvodina?

13        A.   I know only about Hrtkovci.

14        Q.   You didn't leave Hrtkovci at all?

15        A.   No, I did not.

16        Q.   Uh-huh.  So it is your impression that the Serb refugees came

17     only to Hrtkovci; is that right?

18        A.   Well, I don't know whether they went to other villages.  I don't

19     know the figures, but I do know what happened in Hrtkovci.

20        Q.   Did you say that up until April 1992 -- please focus.  April

21     1992, that by that time there were already 500 refugees in Hrtkovci?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And the problems were really great?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   It was impossible to house all those refugees; is that right?

Page 10679

 1        A.   The second wave of refugees, when they came, the local commune

 2     again responded to the situation and provided temporary accommodation for

 3     those people in the property of where there were beds and a kitchen and

 4     bathrooms.

 5        Q.   I would like to quote back to you what you said, that the

 6     problems became very great.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And the refugees became very unhappy?

 9        A.   Yes, because they had been promised houses.

10        Q.   Who promised them houses?

11        A.   I guess the Serb authorities in Croatia.

12        Q.   What Serb authorities in Croatia?  How could they promise them

13     houses in Serbia?

14        A.   Well, where the war was going on.

15        Q.   I guess there were the Croatian authorities there, the ones that

16     expelled them.  Why would the Serb authorities expel them?  There were

17     Serb authorities in the Serbian Krajina, in Western Slavonia in this

18     case.

19        A.   Well, they came from Western Slavonia.

20        Q.   Yes, but Grubisno Polje was in Croat hands, and then in December

21     1991, Croats took most of Western Slavonia, and Serbs had only Okocani

22     and a small section of Topokrac [phoen], so it was the Croatian

23     authorities that expelled them; is that so?

24        A.   Well, I don't know who promised them houses.  All I said was that

25     those people had been duped, and I'm sure that Serbs did promise them

Page 10680

 1     that.  They told them, "Go there.  There are empty houses there because

 2     people left to join the Ustashas, the Ustasha army."

 3        Q.   Yes, yes, sure.  Serbs expelled Serbs just to spite you.  This is

 4     quite clear.

 5             Now, the refugees want the problems to be solved.  That's in

 6     April, and you claim that they wanted me to attend the meeting of the

 7     local commune where their problems would be discussed?

 8        A.   No, that's not what I said.  I said that they wanted to meet with

 9     Vojislav Seselj, not of the local commune, but for Vojislav Seselj to

10     meet with them to solve those issues.

11        Q.   With the refugees?

12        A.   Yes, only with the refugees.

13        Q.   And what kind of an act or what kind of a player I was at that

14     time to be able to solve that problem?

15        A.   I don't know.

16        Q.   Did I -- was I in power at that time?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   How many deputies did the SRS have in the Assembly?

19        A.   I don't know.

20        Q.   Only one.  Does this refresh your memory?  Well, you don't know

21     that.  You only know what was written to you, that you have to repeat

22     like a parrot all the time, and the moment we diverge from that, you

23     start to sweat.

24        A.   I don't know anything.  I don't know anything.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just think about the

Page 10681

 1     following situation:  Did you know anything about the political situation

 2     in Serbia, or is it that in your village you just didn't care about what

 3     was happening elsewhere?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not really follow political

 5     developments.  I minded my own business.  I know what happened in the

 6     village.  Now, as for the politics, that's not something that I followed.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When very unhappy refugees call

 8     on Mr. Seselj, who could have been their saviour, the person who was

 9     going to solve all their problems, at the time Mr. Seselj had a political

10     party that had one representative, one member of Parliament.  So when it

11     seems that he didn't even agree with Mr. Milosevic on a good number of

12     subjects, how was he supposed to solve this huge problem, this huge

13     Serbian problem that was of great amplitude?  Did you think about this,

14     or did just no one think about it?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, I don't know what

16     was going on in people's heads, but they demanded that Vojislav Seselj

17     come and solve their problems.  I said that the first time they made this

18     demand, a woman came from Ruma and she met with them.  They were unhappy,

19     and then they demanded yet again that he should come, and I guess that a

20     meeting was arranged with Seselj, and he came to Hrtkovci on the 6th of

21     May.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question.  Had you

23     heard about Mr. Seselj yourself?  Did you know who he was?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard and saw on TV.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And who was it?  You saw him on

Page 10682

 1     television, but what was the impression he gave you?  Did he look like

 2     someone who could solve all problems?  Did he look like an opponent to

 3     Milosevic?  What impression did he convey?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I was concerned, he

 5     was just a politician like every other politician.  I didn't have a bad

 6     opinion of anyone in the Assembly.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have a bad opinion that

 9     when I watched TV.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Okay.  So who was this woman in Ruma who came to attend this

12     meeting in Hrtkovci?

13        A.   Well, I've already said, I don't know her name.

14        Q.   Did you say that she was from the Serbian Radical Party?

15        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

16        Q.   And what could a woman from the Serbian Radical Party do from

17     Ruma, coming from Ruma to assist the refugees in Hrtkovci?

18        A.   Well, that's why people demanded that Seselj should come.

19        Q.   Divna Icitovic came from Ruma.  She was the president of the Ruma

20     municipality; is that right?  Did you hear her name?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   How could you, an official of the local commune, not know who the

23     president of your municipality was?

24        A.   Well, you said it now.  I don't know who it was.  I said that in

25     my statement.

Page 10683

 1        Q.   Well, I didn't know that.  My investigators found that out.  But

 2     you had to know that because you lived in the Ruma municipality, you were

 3     an official in the local commune, and by its very nature, the local

 4     commune must work closely together with the municipality.  And since you

 5     encountered those big problems in Hrtkovci, Divna Icitovic, the president

 6     of the Ruma municipality, came to Hrtkovci and tried to calm down the

 7     situation, to talk to the refugees to find some kind of a solution; is

 8     that so?

 9        A.   I don't know what it is that she talked about.  I know that

10     people asked yet again to have a meeting.

11        Q.   Did I come to the meeting?

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question for the

13     witness.

14             This lady who came from Ruma, is it the same lady as the one who

15     took part in the demonstration on May 6th, in the rally on May 6th when

16     Mr. Seselj came?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've said -- well, at this

18     first meeting when she came with the Radicals, I was not there.  I don't

19     know the woman.  I mean, I cannot make a comparison.  Was she the one who

20     came, or was it a different person?

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you were there when

22     Mr. Seselj delivered his speech.  First, Mr. Zilic took the floor.  After

23     Mr. Zilic, a lady spoke.  This lady is Marica Pacinin.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stated that I did not know the

25     woman's name.  That's what I said in my statement.

Page 10684

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. Seselj is telling us

 2     that the lady who came from Ruma is called Divna Icitovic.  She came

 3     before May 6th.  So before May 6th, Divna Icitovic comes to Hrtkovci, but

 4     then on May 6th, we have Pacinin also.  So we have two ladies coming from

 5     Ruma.  Is that possible, impossible, or is it the same lady?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that I was not

 7     at the first meeting, so I don't know.  I mean --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know.  Very well.

 9             Proceed.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the witness is testifying as if

11     he did know, as if he were there, and he claims that this was a meeting

12     with the activists of the Serb Radical Party.  I'd just like to draw your

13     attention to that.

14        Q.   Now, hypothetically, the refugees are asking for me to come to

15     the meeting.  I come and I speak at a rally.  Is a rally the same thing

16     as a meeting?

17        A.   No, no.  That was a rally.

18        Q.   Did anybody talk to me?  Could anybody talk to me, or was I the

19     only one who spoke and who shook hands with people, got into a car and

20     went to Belgrade?  Could anybody from the audience say anything to me?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   So that wasn't a meeting, then?

23        A.   Well, all right.  It was a rally.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So there was no meeting.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, here, again, there's

Page 10685

 1     something that seems very illogical.  If Mr. Seselj comes at the request

 2     of the unhappy Serbs that have been expelled from Croatia, then this is

 3     what should happen:  Mr. Seselj comes, makes a speech, and at least meets

 4     those people in order to discuss their problems with them.  But it seems

 5     he comes by car.  We had ample details on this.  There was even a flat

 6     tyre at one point in time, which -- you know, we know everything about

 7     this arrival.  He delivers a speech, and then he leaves.  Obviously, he

 8     did not discuss with these people, so that seems very illogical.

 9             If he's coming at the request of the population because he's

10     supposed to solve all the problems, he should at least discuss with these

11     people, but he just comes in a convoy of cars with security details, and

12     then he just leaves.  How can you explain this?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that he made a speech

14     and that he gave people guidelines as to what they should do.  Now, when

15     he finished, I turned around and left.  Now, whether he stayed on to talk

16     to people or not, that is something that I really don't know.  At any

17     rate, he gave people guidelines as to what it was that they should do.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Should I go on?  Right.

19        Q.   When I allegedly state from the stage that all children from

20     mixed marriages should be killed, was thunderous applause heard from the

21     masses?  Did I experience ovations?  How did people take this statement

22     of mine, that children from mixed marriages should be killed?

23        A.   I don't know how they experienced it.  I know that I was

24     horrified when I heard that.

25        Q.   Were there any ovations?  Was there any applause?

Page 10686

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Were there a lot of women at this rally?

 3        A.   There were quite a few women.

 4        Q.   How did the women react when they heard that I was advocating the

 5     killing of children from mixed marriages?  Were they thrilled?  Were they

 6     jumping up and down with joy?

 7        A.   I did not ask them, and I didn't say that they were delighted.  I

 8     said that I was horrified.

 9        Q.   What did the women around you look like?  Were there a lot of

10     children at the rally?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   How come?  At every rally, a lot of children come, especially in

13     smaller towns and villages.

14        A.   There weren't any children.

15        Q.   No children?

16        A.   Well, a few.

17        Q.   You are inventing this.  There were a lot of children.  Now, the

18     children who were present, there are a few of them, as you say.  Were

19     they thrilled when they heard me advocating the killing of children from

20     mixed marriages?

21        A.   Well, I did not talk to these children, I mean -- or with the

22     others.  I mean, when I heard that, I was horrified and I went home.

23        Q.   How come --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you were horrified,

25     and everybody's horrified on hearing such things.  It so happens that we

Page 10687

 1     heard a witness who came before you.  This witness came from a mixed

 2     marriage.  He had two children.  This witness was here -- was there.  He

 3     heard the speech.  He didn't tell us that he'd heard that.  How can you

 4     explain this, that he didn't hear it and that you heard it?  He must have

 5     been very concerned if anybody was to be concerned.  Can you explain

 6     this?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know how come he

 8     didn't hear that and how come he didn't say so, but Judge, Your Honour,

 9     that was stated at the rally.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll stop for now because I

11     need to hand down an oral decision.  This may take some time.

12             The Registrar will give us the countdown and tell us how much

13     time Mr. Seselj still has to finish his cross-examination.

14             We shall see each other again, Witness, tomorrow at a quarter

15     past 2.00.  So let me renew my instructions to you.  You must not contact

16     anyone to discuss your testimony because your testimony is resuming

17     tomorrow.  So you're going to be leaving the courtroom so that I can read

18     out the oral decision.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, at the beginning of

21     the afternoon, you talked to us about the witness's testimony who is due

22     to come after this one.  I would not give his name because we have been

23     asked to give him protective measures.  This concerns Witness VS-1132.

24     This is the Trial Chamber's oral decision.

25             In light of the motion filed on the 25th of September, 2008, to

Page 10688

 1     admit the written statement of Milorad -- of the Witness VS-1134 on the

 2     11th of September, 2008, pursuant to Rule 92 ter; considering the

 3     response provided by the accused at the hearing of the 14th of October,

 4     2008; given that in addition the accused on several occasions has clearly

 5     indicated that he was opposed to the application of Rule 92 ter of the

 6     Rules; considering that the written statement of this witness has to do

 7     with the presence of volunteers' units in Vukovar as well as his own

 8     presence in Ovcara -- I just need to talk to the legal officer for a few

 9     minutes.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have just talked to the legal

12     officer.  The name of the witness is Milorad Vosnovic [phoen].  He's not

13     coming tomorrow but on the 6th of November.  That is why I needed to

14     check this.  Let me resume.

15             Considering that the written statement of this witness has to do

16     with the presence of volunteers' units in Vukovar as well as his own

17     presence in Ovcara; considering that the Trial Chamber holds that this

18     statement is relevant because it relates clearly to events alleged in the

19     indictment; considering, then, with a view to being efficient and quick,

20     pursuant to Rule 92 ter, it is in the interest of justice to allow this

21     witness to come and testify before the Trial Chamber pursuant to

22     Rule 92 ter of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence for the foregoing

23     reasons: (a), the witness Milorad Vosnovic will testify on the 6th of

24     November, 2008, pursuant to Rule 92 ter of the Rules, based on his

25     statement of the 11th of September, 2008; (b), the Trial Chamber decides

Page 10689

 1     to grant the Prosecution 30 minutes to fill in the formalities pursuant

 2     to Rule 92 ter; (c), the Trial Chamber decides that the accused will have

 3     one hour for the cross-examination of this witness; (d), the Trial

 4     Chamber decides that the written statement dated the 11th of September,

 5     2008, will only be admitted after the formal criteria contained in

 6     Rule 92 ter will have been met.

 7             So much for this witness who will come and testify on the 6th of

 8     November.

 9             Before then - and this is something I need to inform you about,

10     Mr. Seselj, because this is urgent - I wanted to discuss the witness who

11     would be coming before Milorad Vosnovic.

12             This is why you're on your feet, Ms. Dahl?

13             MS. DAHL:  Well, Your Honour, I'm trying to correlate pseudonyms

14     and full -- correct names of witnesses.  Could we go into private session

15     for a moment, please?

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Registrar, please.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10690

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I must tell you

 7     that a few days ago, the OTP sent us a request, i.e., that Witness

 8     Vesna Bosanac be heard pursuant to our 92 ter Rule.  This motion was

 9     being translated.  I don't know whether this motion has been disclosed to

10     you in your language.  If it hasn't been disclosed to you, let me tell

11     you that the Prosecution has got a new statement of Vesna Bosanac, and

12     the Prosecutor has asked for this witness to be heard pursuant to 92 ter.

13     That said, the Prosecutor has also allowed enough time for your

14     cross-examination.  This is why this woman will be heard over a period of

15     two days.

16             The Trial Chamber would like you to tell us today what your

17     position on this is.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You know that I'm absolutely

19     opposed to the application of Rule 92 ter because this makes the trial

20     unfair and it seriously infringes upon my rights.

21             Secondly, the OTP has wasted an enormous amount of time bringing

22     in crime-base witnesses that have to do with crimes that are no longer in

23     the indictment.  That is what they wasted time on, and for those

24     localities that are still in the indictment, they are asking for 92 ter.

25     Even if legally this were to be right, it would be highly irrational in

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 1     view of the fact that my rights are being violated.  As for the

 2     application of 92 ter, I don't want to discuss it.  It doesn't exist for

 3     me.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me tell you this:  I have

 5     read the 92 ter statement of this witness, Madam Vesna Bosanac, very

 6     carefully.  In her statement, at no point in time are you mentioned.  The

 7     members of the SRS are never mentioned.  She is going to testify and talk

 8     about what happened in the hospital which was shelled, and she will also

 9     in her statement talk about everything she did.  She turned to the

10     Croatian authorities, and she turned to the JNA.  And then she will

11     testify about what happened when the hospital was shelled, captured.  So

12     much for the content of her testimony.

13             The Trial Chamber has recorded your comments, and we will let you

14     know and tell you what our decision will be, a decision taken by the

15     entire Bench.

16             Mr. Seselj.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the situation is

18     very murky as regards Ovcara.  You and your colleagues have already been

19     able to see that for yourselves.  The Mrksic trial, the trial of Mrksic

20     and the others did not really cast any more light on it.  Mrksic was

21     convicted only on the basis of assumptions.  There is no information as

22     to who decided to take the prisoners to Ovcara, where there is this

23     record of the hand-over, what is the role of the four colonels of the

24     Security Service who were reactivated although had been retired, and

25     without any papers they were sent to Vukovar.  Who decided to execute the

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 1     prisoners?  Who kept silent for months after the execution?

 2             Now, as for Colonel Milorad Vojnovic, you allowed him to testify

 3     under 92 ter.  He was the commander of the town that Ovcara belonged to,

 4     and from the 23rd of November onwards, for several months he was the

 5     commander of Vukovar.  Instead of having him sitting here as an accused

 6     person, he comes to testify against me according to 92 ter, against me,

 7     who had no idea whatsoever of what it was that was going on over there.

 8             If you think that this is the right way to proceed, well, then,

 9     fine.  You do that until the very end.  But he comes to testify against

10     me, and his military police from his brigade was at Ovcara until the very

11     last moment, and they handed over the detainees to the people there

12     without any record.  These people were executed, and he comes to testify

13     against me.  That is possible too.  Well, go ahead and do it that way if

14     that's what you want, but I am not going to question him if his statement

15     is admitted according to Rule 92 ter.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you are saying that

17     he's coming to testify against you.  All the more reason for you to

18     cross-examine him.  Under 92 ter, the Prosecution says that there is a

19     statement.  I shall ask him to confirm the statement.  "I would like

20     such-and-such a document to be tendered into evidence."  Then you are

21     free to put your questions.  If you don't put your question, I, in any

22     case, will put questions to the witness.  These questions need to be put

23     in the interests of justice, and I shall do my job even if you don't say

24     anything.

25             So I have noted what you have said as regards this witness, and

Page 10693

 1     the Judges will put their questions.  We have the statement, and we check

 2     everything, and you must have realised this by now.  We're not here to

 3     leave some questions unexplained.  We are to determine whether you are

 4     guilty or innocent, which is a huge responsibility on our shoulders, and

 5     we are not entitled to make a mistake.  This is why we will put our

 6     questions.  If you don't put the questions, we will put our questions.

 7             Tomorrow, we shall resume.  You shall resume your

 8     cross-examination.  You have, as far as this witness is concerned, one

 9     hour and a half left to finish with him.  At the end of your

10     cross-examination, there might be a redirect, I don't know, and then we

11     shall hear our next witness.

12             I apologise to the interpreters for having overstepped the Trial

13     Chamber's time by five minutes.  I'm sure they will accept this.

14             We shall meet again at a quarter past 2.00.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of

17                           October, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.