1 Wednesday, 12 November 2008
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
8 Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon, everyone in and
9 around the courtroom.
10 This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus
11 Vojislav Seselj.
12 Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
14 Today is Wednesday, the 12th of November, 2008. I would like to
15 greet the representatives of the Prosecution and their associate,
16 Mr. Seselj, and all the people assisting us in the courtroom.
17 We are going to be hearing the next witness and moving into
18 closed session. I'm checking the logo on the screen.
19 Registrar, please.
20 [Closed session]
11 Pages 11654-11672 redacted. Closed session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. MARCUSSEN:
12 Q. 1093, what was the distribution of managerial positions like in
13 Zvornik municipality at the time we are talking about? Are you able to
14 comment on that?
15 A. Well, 90 per cent of the directors in Zvornik municipality were
17 Q. And when you say "directors," you mean directors of what?
18 A. I mean company managers, company directors.
19 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that already by the time that you got
20 the position that you got, I think I can paraphrase it as tension was
21 mounting in Zvornik. Did there come a time when the Serb population set
22 up parallel authorities?
23 A. Yes, that did happen. Already toward the end of 1991, there
24 started a continued obstruction of the functioning of legal municipal
25 structures. They separated the Secretariat for the Interior and
1 relocated it to Karakaj. The directors in Zvornik regularly met for
2 consultations in Mali Zvornik. They denied any form -- they refused any
3 form of joint functioning or living side by side.
4 Q. Are you familiar with a person by the name of Branko Grujic?
5 A. Yes, I am familiar with that name.
6 Q. Do you recall him ever making a statement which reflected his
7 view of the Muslim population of the area?
8 A. Well, at a session of the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik, he said
9 loud and clear that, "We Serbs will not live with you, inter alia because
10 you multiply like rabbits and we won't have -- we will not support your
11 children." At that time, actually, the daycare centres for children were
12 municipal structures, and they were financed out of joint resources, a
13 joint budget.
14 Q. If you remember, when was this statement made?
15 A. It was made at one of the last joint sessions of the Municipal
16 Assembly, perhaps in January 1992. I do not know the exact date.
17 Q. Did the Serbs -- the Serb part of the population, did they
18 establish their own defence or Territorial Defence unit ?
19 A. Yes, they did. Sometime in early February 1992, a unit was set
20 up and stationed in Karakaj, a unit of the Territorial Defence, which had
21 its commander who was -- I'm trying to recall his name. He was a worker
22 at the Alumina company. He was a major, and his surname was Jovanovic.
23 That unit was armed. It was armed by the Bijeljina Garrison. We would
24 have occasional negotiations with the commander of the Bijeljina
25 Garrison, and to my surprise this Major Jovanovic would always be there
1 as well, who was the commander of that unit about which the official
2 municipal authorities knew nothing.
3 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we may move into private session for just
4 a brief minute.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.
6 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 MR. MARCUSSEN:
19 Q. Prior to this establishment of armed units at Karakaj in 1991,
20 were there any steps taken which you realised were also related to a
21 Serb; defence or armed units being set up?
22 A. Well, already at the end of 1990 and in 1991, constant
23 obstruction started of the normal functioning of the Zvornik Municipal
24 Assembly. Sometimes the reasons were banal and sometimes they were very
25 serious. One of the reasons would be, for instance, that the Hunting
1 Association of Zvornik municipality asked to be able to hunt in the
2 territory of Hrasnica as well, and this area was inhabited mainly by
3 Serbs. However, the municipal delegates to the Municipal Assembly of
4 Zvornik from the ranks of the SDS
5 not want to participate in the work of the Municipal Assembly at all if
6 that was placed on the agenda.
7 When the war started, we realised why things had been like that,
8 because throughout the Rastosnica [Realtime transcript read in error
9 "Rastocnica"] region area, there were constructed very strong
10 fortification structures, trenches, shelters, fox holes, with concrete
11 works done to reinforce them, and weapons were also deployed there which
12 during the war actually were used to open fire at the Muslim parts of the
13 municipal territory.
14 So already in 1990 and 1991, they already knew that there would
15 be a war, and quite obviously they prepared for it in a very organised
17 MR. MARCUSSEN: And for the record, at page 23, line 22, and
18 page 24, line 3, the spelling of the location should be
19 R-a-s-t-o-s-w-i -- sorry, s-n-i-c-a.
20 Q. 1093, are you familiar with an officer with the name of Tesic?
21 A. No, I didn't know anybody by the name of Tesic. Perhaps you mean
23 Q. Yes, it's my pronunciation. I am sorry.
24 A. Yes, Colonel Tacic. Yes, I did know him, and, what's more, we
25 were friends, we socialised. He liked to have a drink of wine and to try
1 Bosnian specialties, so we would very often sit down together.
2 Q. Did he come to the Zvornik area at some point?
3 A. He was the commander of the armoured unit which was, until the
4 war in Croatia
5 conflicts broke out, he pulled out his entire unit and stationed it in
6 Dubrava under the command of General Jankovic. And immediately upon
7 arrival in Dubrava, he would come to visit the Zvornik headquarters, with
8 the request that he be given a facility to use, some premises which he
9 could use which belonged to the Zvornik municipality that was in Kuslat
10 and where a thousand men could be put up very comfortably. They had
11 kitchens and bathrooms and so on.
12 Q. When did he arrive with his units to Dubrava?
13 A. He arrived in the second half of 1991.
14 Q. Did he at some point deploy his units in other places in Zvornik
16 A. Well, yes, he did. At the beginning of 1992, saying that Tudjman
17 had -- under the pretext that Tudjman had planes, he deployed his tanks
18 along the Zvornik area, and Zvornik had three or four bridges. One was
19 an industrial bridge and two for the public, so actually there were four
20 bridges in all. And all those bridges were secured with anti-aircraft
21 guns and tanks. And he also deployed, already in February, his tanks in
22 Mali Zvornik, with their barrels facing Divic. And in all those Serbian
23 villages from Zvornik to Bijeljina, he stationed this very, very heavy
24 weaponry, and also the territory of the Sekovic municipality, which
25 borders on Zvornik, which is well known as the white land, he deployed
1 those units there and moved his headquarters, his command, from Dubrava
2 to Sekovici, saying that the reason was that it had come -- that an order
3 had come in from the higher command.
4 Q. Do you remember the villages -- the names of some of the villages
5 in Zvornik municipality where he stationed his weapons?
6 A. That was Karakaj, Celopek, Trsic.
7 Q. What was the name of his deputy?
8 A. I'm not quite sure what his name was, but I know that he was a
9 Muslim and that he was a major by rank, and I noticed that he would
10 always come with Tacic. They were always together. However, in February
11 I noticed that the major was no longer with Tacic. And I asked him what
12 had happened to the gentleman, and he said he went to take up another
13 duty in Belgrade
14 MR. MARCUSSEN: I would ask that we go briefly into private
15 session again, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 11679 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
25 MR. MARCUSSEN:
1 Q. 1093, you just explained that Zvornik had a mixed population of
2 Serbs and Muslims or Bosniaks. Did there come a time when the Serb
3 population started to leave Zvornik?
4 A. Well, yes. Already at the beginning -- or, rather, during 1991,
5 anybody who had anywhere to go in Serbia
6 more prominent in 1992. And just prior to the conflict breaking out,
7 Zvornik was left to the Muslims. It was just the Muslims who remained.
8 A couple of days before the attack on Zvornik, the only people there were
10 Q. Have you any knowledge of why the Serbs left?
11 A. Well, just like in other parts of Bosnia, a plan of attack
12 existed and there was a plan for ethnic cleansing, and it was easier to
13 ethnically cleanse if you knew there were no Serbs around.
14 Q. Did the Muslim population in Zvornik create a crisis staff at
15 some point in time? And if so, when?
16 A. Well, I don't think I would call it a crisis staff. Quite
17 simply, when it became obvious that nothing good could be expected, some
18 of the prominent citizens of Zvornik came to the municipality building,
19 Municipal Assembly building, to have a discussion to see what could be
20 done. And the Municipal Assembly building was where the SUP building was
21 as well, and it was sheltered in a way from the weapons trained on
22 Veliki Zvornik. So we went across to the SUP building, and that was just
23 two days prior to the attack on Zvornik.
24 Q. And I understand, from the way you answer the question, that you
25 were one of the people who participated in that group.
1 A. Yes, you're quite right.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One point of clarification.
3 You told us that the Serbs left Zvornik. You said that there was
4 a plan. Are you quite certain that the Serbs who left Zvornik did not
5 leave Zvornik because they were forced to do so by Muslims?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they left Zvornik because
7 they had received instructions that that's what they should do, leave
8 Zvornik so that Zvornik could be freed of the Muslims. They were not
9 jeopardised in any way by the Muslims.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that they had received
11 instructions, but from whom? Who gave them these instructions?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was an unbelievable
13 situation. Zvornik was multiethnic. There were many mixed marriages,
14 friends between different ethnicities. There were excellent examples of
15 inter-ethnic tolerance and socialising. However, there was not one Serb
16 whoever let out where the directions -- directives and instructions came
17 from. You wouldn't hear that from a single Serb, so I don't really know
18 who gave them those directives or instructions, from what side they had
20 MR. MARCUSSEN:
21 Q. 1093, are you familiar with the arrests of some Serbs around this
22 point in time in Zvornik?
23 A. Well, yes. On the 7th of April -- yes, the 7th of April, as I
24 say, the night prior to the attack on Zvornik, a group of citizens
25 brought four uniformed soldiers who set off to Karakaj. However, when
1 they crossed the bridge, they took the wrong turn, and instead of going
2 right, they went left and came to a part of Zvornik which is mostly
3 inhabited by Muslims. And they were already wary of something happening.
4 Well, wary, if I can put it that way, they were cautious, and so these
5 four soldiers who were wearing uniforms, camouflaged uniforms, and who
6 had ID cards saying that they belonged to some Arkan units, they all had
7 pistols, the Colt type pistols, the cowboy -- American cowboy Colts, and
8 only generals had that type of a pistol in the JNA. Anyway, all of them
9 had a couple of sets of handcuffs, and they had some wires, thin steel
10 wires. And as they explained, these wires -- this wire was intended for
11 silent liquidation of the enemy, and so on and so forth. And they went
12 on to explain to us that certain media in Belgrade kept referring to --
13 kept calling for assistance to the Serb brothers, Serb brethren, in
15 the Serbs had to help -- fellow Serbs had to help their -- Serbs had to
16 help their fellow Serbs.
17 Q. Were there bodies floating in the river at this point in time?
18 A. No, not at that time. But several weeks later, yes, that was the
19 case. Unfortunately, they weren't Serb corpses; they were Muslim
21 Q. Did -- again, I can understand from your answer that you,
22 yourself, spoke to these four gentlemen. Would you just confirm that
23 that's right?
24 A. Well, yes, I did talk to them. I asked them who they were, where
25 they were from, things like that. And I asked the people present not to
1 be brutal.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you have a conversation
3 with them or did you question them?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we talked. They weren't
5 tied, they weren't mistreated, they weren't beaten. We handed them some
6 cigarettes, and then we put all four of them up into a separate room.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is it customary to be nice with
8 people you've just arrested and whom you find with all sorts of weapons
9 on them?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we were naive and
11 inexperienced. Certainly, we thought that -- we thought at the time that
12 perhaps the situation would calm down and that there wouldn't be a war.
13 And to this day, I could never kill anyone, regardless of everything that
14 I have lived through myself.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about the military police
16 of the TO, what about the civilian police? Weren't there any police
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was disarray already at that
19 time. Anybody who could escape escaped, beginning with the commander,
20 the other lower commanders, Secretaries of the Interior, his
21 subordinates, right down to the rank and file. There were no -- there
22 was no more official structure that was in place. Anybody who could
23 escape did.
24 MR. MARCUSSEN:
25 Q. To your knowledge, were the four men released?
1 A. Yes, they were. They were released after our negotiations and
2 talks in Mali Zvornik which took place the following day, when we decided
3 to leave the premises of the municipal SUP building. And one Muslim,
4 I think his name was Fadil Mujic, took them to the hydroelectric power
5 plant, and that's where they were handed over. And then they left, they
6 went where they thought was best for them to go, alive and well.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, before we move to the next topic,
8 maybe this is a convenient time for the break.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a convenient time for
10 the break. We'll have a 20-minute break.
11 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.
14 We are in open session.
15 MR. MARCUSSEN:
16 Q. 1093, I'd like now to turn to the 8th of April, 1994 -- 1992.
17 Where were you that day?
18 A. I was in the building of the Secretariat of the Interior in
20 Q. And could you tell us what happened during the morning that day?
21 A. In the morning, fire was opened from some Zvornik settlements
22 inhabited mainly by Serbs, from the area of Karakaj, that is. That is a
23 village which borders on the Zvornik area. I proposed to the president
24 of the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik --
25 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'll just stop you for one second. We need to go
1 into closed session again, Your Honours. Private session will do.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 11687-11695 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
6 MR. MARCUSSEN: And I'd like if we could show Exhibit P358. Yes,
7 yes, and this can broadcast. There's no problem with that. This should
8 be a map.
9 If we could zoom in on the lower -- lower right side so that we
10 have -- maybe out a little bit more. Sorry, the area is right. We need
11 to zoom out a bit more so we can see a bit more of the area.
12 Okay, this is fine, we can do it with this.
13 Q. Now, could you indicate on this map, and we need the help of the
14 usher to do this, where the artillery fire was coming from? Now, you
15 mentioned --
16 A. Yes, yes, I can show you that.
17 Q. I think we cannot see Celopek on this map, as it is now, but if
18 you maybe indicate the other areas.
19 A. It's over here, this belt along the Drina River
20 above Mali Zvornik too.
21 Q. Could I ask you to put -- add a letter "A" at the first area you
22 indicated, so the belt?
23 A. [Marks].
24 Q. And the letter "B" for Mali Zvornik.
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. Thank you. Now, the area A, could you describe that area for us?
2 Who were living in that area?
3 A. Living in that area were a mixed population of Muslims and Serbs,
4 but mostly they were Muslims. It was the so-called new settlement or
5 Novo Naselje, inhabited by Muslims who had moved out of Mali Zvornik when
6 the hydroelectric power plant was built and they were displaced and all
7 the Muslims who lived in Mali Zvornik were moved to this area here.
8 Q. And were you able to see the fire coming from these areas, or how
9 do you know that fire came from these areas?
10 A. Well, yes, you could see it clearly. It was nighttime, and every
11 shot is attended by a flash. And most of the shells were coming from the
12 territory of Mali Zvornik and Karakaj.
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: And I think we have several other maps showing
14 where Karakaj and Celopek are, so I'm not going to create an exhibit for
15 that purpose.
16 Q. But just, am I right, it would be north of what we're seeing now,
17 it's up above the area of Zvornik that we are seeing on the present map?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. What weapons were used for the shelling?
20 A. Mostly they used mortars, mortars of large calibres, tanks as
21 well, and anti-aircraft guns.
22 Q. From the use of the weapons that evening, are you able to
23 determine who would have been carrying out this fire, what units?
24 A. Well, those kinds of weapons with that calibre -- well, the TO
25 didn't have that kind of weapon. They were just units, regular units of
1 the Yugoslav People's Army. It was only the Yugoslav People's Army that
2 had tanks, for example, cannons, things like that.
3 Q. And would you know who -- what units of that nature were
4 stationed at Celopek, who was the commander of those units?
5 A. Those were Colonel Tacic's units, and during that time there was
6 the proclamation on mobilisation signed by Colonel Tacic. Artillery
7 units of the JNA were commanded by Colonel Tacic.
8 Q. And what areas in Zvornik were targeted?
9 A. Mostly the parts along the outskirts of Zvornik which were
10 inhabited by the Muslims.
11 Q. And maybe for the sake of completeness, could you mark where you
12 were when you saw this thing on this -- during this evening?
13 A. It was a terrible night. We had no peace and had to move around
14 all the time along the stretch from Kula Grad to Divic and Mladjevac
15 hill. [Marks].
16 Q. Could I ask you to put the letter "C" next to the line you just
17 put, "C" like "Charlie"?
18 A. [Marks].
19 Q. The following day, were you able to observe events in Zvornik
21 A. I took with me one of the official binoculars, and so I could see
22 the events that followed fairly clearly.
23 Q. On this map, could you indicate the general area where you were
24 the next day? Maybe like you did last time, make a point or a line and
25 mark it with a "D" like "Delta."
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. So if I can put on record, the witness drew a line with a "C" and
3 has now made a circle around the line that he made and marked that with a
4 "D", which indicated the general area where the witness were the next
5 day. So it's essentially the same area that you were in during the night
6 and the following day; would that be correct?
7 A. That's right, yes.
8 Q. What did you -- what was going on and what were you able to
9 observe happening in Zvornik?
10 A. Well, I saw that from the direction of Mali Zvornik, across the
11 bridge infantry groups were being infiltrated into the area, which, while
12 moving around, as you'd say in military parlance, as if they were in
13 combat, combat formation. And then they became lost amongst the houses
14 and so on. And I saw the same thing happening from the Karakaj
15 direction. They would be in groups of twos or threes.
16 Q. And from Karakaj and the bridge, in what direction were they
18 A. Well, they were moving into Karakaj, and it's this area here, the
19 entrance into Zvornik, over the bridge, and combed the whole territory,
20 the whole of the town of Zvornik
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: And for the record, the witness have made two
22 arrows, one pointing from north, southward, and another arrow pointing
23 across the Drina River
24 down south through Zvornik.
25 Q. Were there --
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. I think that the
2 Prosecutor ought to show us the whole map so that we can see whether
3 there are any projections there, because maps without projections mean
4 nothing. There's no scale to this map, so anybody with any knowledge of
5 topography would know that you need the scale. If the Prosecutor shows
6 us the entire map, then we might be able to see something like that.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is it possible to see the
8 entire map?
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: But before we move away from this image, we have
10 to have it as an exhibit or we will lose the markings on the exhibit. So
11 at this point -- but if I could put on record, Your Honours, the original
12 65 ter number that I referred to have the full map and have the scale on
13 it, so I don't think there's any reason for us to spend time in court on
14 this. This can be checked by anyone.
15 What I can assist Your Honours with is just to indicate that --
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, we never needed a scale
17 before, but now we do.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Or we could give a number and
19 then see the entire map.
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, Your Honour. I could also assist by maybe
21 indicating that each of the squares on the map correspond to one
22 kilometre. You can see various quarters of them, and they are one
23 kilometre on each direction. And if the accused would like to make any
24 submissions -- cross-examine the witness on anything in relation to
25 distances or something like that, he can do that, but let's get an
1 exhibit number for this one, anyway.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what you say, but
3 Mr. Seselj may not be of the same view.
4 Witness, do you agree that each square is one kilometre?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that's right.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have a
7 number, Mr. Registrar.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecutor has
9 shown us -- has a map, the whole map, so would he provide me with that
10 entire map?
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number first.
12 THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be given Exhibit number P627.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. MARCUSSEN: To expedite matters, I propose to give my map to
15 the accused so he can look at it. I don't quite understand what the
16 issue is, but if he would like to have a copy.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't say there was
18 anything questionable. I don't know in advance, but I'd just like to
19 have a look, that's all.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.
21 MR. MARCUSSEN:
22 Q. 1093, were there any civilians left in Zvornik town that you were
23 able to observe?
24 A. Well, about two hours after the infantry attacks began, I saw
25 columns of women and children, groups of women and children crossing over
1 the bridge between Veliki and Mali Zvornik, which means that they
2 separated the men from the women and -- or, rather, the women and
3 children, and the men were liquidated. If there were smaller groups,
4 they liquidated them on the spot, and they would escort the larger groups
5 to the collection centre at Karakaj.
6 Q. How do you know that men were executed?
7 A. I saw the liquidation of a group which -- whose building was
8 located at the entrance to Zvornik, on this side, the side I was on, and
9 that might have been, well, about a kilometre if you follow the road, but
10 shorter as the crow flies. I knew that building and those people,
11 myself, and somebody's sister lived in the building, and the neighbour
12 was (redacted), and he was the largest man in Zvornik. He had two sons
13 who played basketball in the basketball club in my local town, and I saw
14 the liquidation of that group.
15 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I think we would need to redact the
16 name that appear at page 49, line 28.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please, line 28,
18 page 49, or line 24.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: And as we still have the exhibit on the screen,
20 if I could ask the usher to assist us once again with -- have the witness
21 mark the approximate location of the apartment block being mentioned.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can to that, I can mark
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: The usher will provide you with a pen, and --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, why not a new
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Marcussen, the easiest thing is to -- you can
3 continue on this map, but just because the new edition will then have a
4 different exhibit number, and for that purpose it's better to ask the
5 witness if he can indicate the next thing in blue, or green, or some
6 other colour.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: No, Your Honour, I think just to avoid spending
8 time zooming in again, we can maybe change the colour to whatever, green,
10 Q. And if you would now please, with a pen, mark the location.
11 Would the usher please give the pen to the witness.
12 A. [Marks].
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you. And so the location has now been
14 indicated in blue. I don't think we need any further markings on this,
15 and I propose that we make this an exhibit now, which in one way replaces
16 the one we just made, but --
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number, please.
18 THE REGISTRAR: This shall be Exhibit P628. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's just clear one point. The
20 blue marking, is that Zamlaz settlement, is that what the witness meant?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Hrid settlement.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What about Zamlaz, where is that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Zamlaz settlement is further
24 into Zvornik, deeper into the territory.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the Prosecutor ought
1 to have Zamlaz settlement marked, too. If we have Hrid, we need Zamlaz.
2 I assume the Prosecutor is well aware of that, and here I am in the
3 position to help the Prosecutor.
4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, I was not intending to lead any evidence
5 about that, so if the accused would want to have that marked at some
6 point in time for some purpose, that's perfectly okay with me.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Indeed. During
8 cross-examination, Mr. Seselj, you can ask for this map again, and the
9 witness can then indicate where Zamlaz is.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN:
11 Q. Could you please explain us -- the execution you saw, could you
12 please explain us what you saw?
13 A. I saw masked soldiers opening fire and people falling.
14 Q. Lastly -- well, maybe not lastly. You also said that larger
15 groups of men were taken away. Did you see men, groups of men, being
16 taken away?
17 A. Yes, I did. I saw one such group being taken away towards Zamlaz
18 that the accused just mentioned, and later on I heard the shots. I
19 didn't see any liquidation, though.
20 Q. Now, you told us earlier on what the ethnic composition of
21 Zvornik was prior to the events you have testified about today. After
22 these events, what was the ethnic composition like?
23 A. 100 per cent Serbs, 0 per cent Muslims.
24 Q. Did a similar change in the ethnic composition take place in
25 other parts of Bosnia
1 A. Quite certainly, this whole belt, whole stretch along the Drina
2 was ethnically cleansed, including Grude, Visegrad, Bratunac, Zvornik,
3 Vlasenica, Srebrenica, and all those municipalities. All the entire
4 Muslim population was expelled from those municipalities, and the whole
5 thing happened in Northwestern Bosnia, Prijedor, Ljubija, that area
6 around Banja Luka.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'd like if we could now show Exhibit number 65
8 ter 7011.
9 Q. The areas that you mentioned, are they indicated on the map that
10 you now see, in any particular colour?
11 A. That is the area marked red.
12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I'd like to tend this map, please.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number P629. Thank you.
15 MR. MARCUSSEN: And, Your Honours, that concludes the direct
16 examination of this witness by the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have only one
18 question for you. It's a question of military technique.
19 Arkan's men, you said that you saw some of them. If I understood
20 the situation as it was from a military point of view, the JNA was
21 present in Zvornik. Well, on the other side, were they going to shell
22 and bomb? Apparently there are some tanks, and you said that the
23 infantry took control in groups of two to three, that's what you said
24 earlier on, so took control of houses and streets.
25 During that phase of the attack, at one point in time you spoke
1 about the people you saw as they were liquidated. That's the word you
2 used. They were liquidated by masked individuals. What about these
3 masked individuals? Were they Arkan's men or were they foot soldiers of
4 the JNA, infantrymen?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were people in camouflage
6 uniforms and with balaclavas on their heads. They could have been
7 Arkan's men or JNA members, although I don't think that at that time the
8 JNA wore those uniforms. I think that they were paramilitary
9 organisations. The JNA units did the strategic part of the job, which is
10 the shelling and the intimidation of the population, because shells kept
11 landing, heavy-hardware shells.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the JNA was in charge of
13 logistics. If you have a paramilitary unit of the type of Arkan's unit,
14 what was the use of it on the ground?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were ruthless killers. The
16 only question they asked was, "Are you a Serb?" If you were not a Serb,
17 you would be shot in the head. The officers and troops of JNA could not
18 do that at that time.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that you saw Arkan
20 at some point in time. I'll not go into any detail. What impression did
21 he give to you? Was he just a madman, was he a military leader, an
22 idealist; what was your impression of him when you saw him in the flesh
23 and when you talked to him?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had a baby face, a very likable
25 face, mischievous face, a thievish face. He treated us fairly in the few
1 contacts that we had, but it was obvious that he was completely in charge
2 of the situation.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he was completely in charge
4 of the situation, you say. But does that mean that, technically
5 speaking, he could order artillery shelling from JNA tanks? Was he the
6 number 1 or was he only the leader of a paramilitary unit?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Tacic was the artillery
8 commander in that territory. Now, what the relations were between Tacic
9 and Arkan, I really don't know.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that you don't know at all.
11 Very well.
12 We're going to have the cross-examination, but it might be better
13 to have a break now. We could start at 5.30, to work until 7.00.
14 What do you think, Mr. Seselj? Would you rather have the break
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that it is better if I
17 start after the break. At least that is better for me.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 Well, let's have the break now. We shall resume at 5.30, and we
20 shall work until 7.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 5.09 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 5.32 p.m.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.
24 Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:
2 Q. Mr. VS-1093, you know that Bosnia and Herzegovina is one of the
3 federal units of the former Yugoslavia
4 until 1990; is that correct?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. At the end of 1990, the first multiparty elections were held, at
7 which the Communists lost power; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Three national parties won those elections, the Party of
10 Democratic Action, which rallied the Muslims, the Serbian Democratic
11 Party, which rallied the Serbs, and the Croatian Democratic Union which
12 rallied the Croats; is that correct?
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.
14 MR. MARCUSSEN: As this is a witness with voice distortion, it's
15 my understanding that the accused will have to turn off his microphone
16 after he has put the question, before the witness answers. It's one of
17 these technical difficulties we unfortunately have.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Okay, let me do that. But you
19 could have found me an assistant, because sometimes it just slips my
20 mind, even though I'd like to do it.
21 Q. So three national parties won the elections; right?
22 A. Yes, that is correct, but I don't know why you're asking me that.
23 Q. You know what, you have come here to answer questions. I cannot
24 tell you beforehand why I am asking you any particular question, and be
25 kind so as to answer them. I have no ill will towards you, so please be
1 patient and answer the questions, because that is why you are here.
2 A. The same goes for you, and there are no problems.
3 Q. I haven't said anything to offend you, have I?
4 A. No, you haven't.
5 Q. Well, tell me if I do so. If I say anything that you find
6 insulting or offensive, please inform me and warn me. Immediately, I
7 shall try to avoid doing that.
8 A. No problem whatsoever.
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: The accused now turned down his microphone, but
10 during the other questions and answers, the microphone was not off. It's
11 difficult. I don't know if it's better that we just are in private
12 session, because it is hard also for me to remember.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, be careful. Think
14 of the microphone, because if you do not switch off your microphone, the
15 voice of the witness will be heard through your microphone.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] [Interpretation].
18 Q. These three national parties were in a coalition; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And supported each other at the elections, and the Muslim party
21 called up on the Muslims to vote for Serbian candidates to the Presidency
22 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Serbian party called up on the Serbs to
23 vote for the Muslim candidates and the Croatian party called upon their
24 voters to vote for the Serbian and Muslim candidates, and the Serbian and
25 Muslim parties asked their voters to support the Croatian candidates?
1 A. I was not in politics for long, but it was like that, more or
3 Q. But you were a member of the Party of Democratic Action, the
4 largest Muslim party, and you pursued and followed its policies, so I
5 suppose that you also voted for candidates of the Serbian Democratic
6 Party and the Croatian Democratic Union to the presidency of Bosnia
8 A. I do not remember.
9 Q. Fine. There was a mutual trust among those parties until the
10 Communists were toppled and until war broke out in the area of the
11 Croatian federal unit; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. When war broke out, in connection with Croatia's attempts to
14 separate from Yugoslavia
15 attended by the Tudjman's regime, and the Serbs in it did not want that
16 to be done, there was greater mistrust among the Serbian and Muslim
17 politicians; isn't that correct?
18 A. Can you repeat the question?
19 Q. When Tudjman tried to break away with Croatia from Yugoslavia
20 which led to an armed conflict between him and the Serbs in the area of
21 the Croatian federal unit, and then between him and the JNA, that led to
22 the first mistrust between the leading Serb and Muslim politicians in
23 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Was I precise now?
24 A. Yes, you were.
25 Q. Was it like that?
1 A. I was not so deeply involved in politics to register all that.
2 Q. I reckon that you are a very educated man. You are university
3 educated. I'm not going to say anything more, in order not to disclose
4 your identity. I see that you are an intelligent person.
5 A. Thank you.
6 Q. I can see that you are able to reply to these basic questions.
7 But these are not trick questions. I just want to paint, together with
8 you, the general political scene.
9 A. All right, fine.
10 Q. Was it the first cause of the mistrust which set in between
11 Muslim and Serbian politicians there?
12 A. I don't think there was ever sincere trust between Muslim and
13 Serbian politicians, and this especially escalated when the war broke out
14 in Croatia
15 Q. Did the Muslims then stop to respond to JNA cause for
16 mobilisation en masse?
17 A. Yes, they did.
18 Q. Did they -- was it only or solely Serbs or almost solely Serbs
19 that responded to the call-up in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Looking in hindsight, was it a big mistake on the part of the
22 Bosnian leadership, because responding to the call-up, Serbs also got
23 hold of weapons, set up certain units of territorial defence controlled
24 by the JNA, and the Muslims themselves renounced all such possibilities;
25 is that correct?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. And do you remember that the Muslims, in 1991, formed an
3 organisation which was called the Patriotic League?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Was this -- did this Patriotic League have its military
7 A. Yes, it did.
8 Q. Was that the Green Berets?
9 A. That was a very poorly-organised structure which only served as a
10 pretext for aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina. They had no
11 organising -- organisational, striking or manoeuvring capacity.
12 Q. Well, but they did exist. We can now have our differences
13 regarding the quality of that organisation; right?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Tell me, you should know that there operated in the area of
16 Zvornik two Muslim political parties; right?
17 A. Yes. The Party of Democratic Action actually split.
18 Q. There was a schism in the Party of Democratic Action?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In addition to that, there was the Muslim Bosniak organisation
21 headed at the level of the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina by the prominent
22 intellectual Adil Zulfikarpasic who died recently; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you remember that the Muslim Bosniak organisation of Adil
25 Zulfikarpasic sought -- looked for a way to achieve a political solution
1 with the Serbs and for Bosnia and Herzegovina to remain part of
3 A. I have read about it.
4 Q. Do you know that on the other hand, in the Party of Democratic
5 Action there increasingly strengthened the aspiration for Bosnia
7 A. These are known things. Everybody knows about that.
8 Q. Very well. We shall go on, and my questions are going to be
9 very, very easy, I assure you.
10 A. But I like difficult questions.
11 Q. I don't have difficult questions for you. I reserve them for the
12 OTP's experts.
13 Do you remember when these first political tensions arose in the
14 Zvornik municipality area, as well as the first misunderstandings between
15 the Serbs and the Muslims, that Radovan Karadzic and Adil Zulfikarpasic
16 sometime around the end of 1991 organised a joint rally of Muslims and
17 Serbs in the sports hall in Zvornik?
18 A. Which was not actually held.
19 Q. What do you mean, it was not held?
20 A. It was not held. It was called off.
21 Q. I have a book here by Himzo Tulic, who wrote -- who published his
22 memoirs of these events in Zvornik, and on page 10 he claims that that
23 rally was indeed held and that the tensions between the Serbs and the
24 Muslims started to ease after that rally.
25 A. I do not doubt that it is so written in that book, which I
1 haven't read, but that rally of togetherness was never held in Zvornik.
2 Q. I don't know. I do not live in Zvornik, as you know, and just on
3 the basis of Himzo Tulic's book, I have this information that a joint
4 rally was held and that this restored mutual trust, which was sustained
5 until the beginning of 1992. And you negate that?
6 A. Yes, 100 per cent.
7 Q. All right. Do you know this: At the end of 1991 and in 1992,
8 there appeared in the Zvornik area some arms dealers who sold weapons to
9 both Serbs and Muslims?
10 A. Yes, I'm aware of that, I know that.
11 Q. And they gradually intimidated the people in order to induce them
12 to buy their weapons; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, the people bought arms, they were intimidated.
14 Q. Do you know any of those arm dealers? Were they Muslims or
16 A. I don't know any. I never had dealings with any such persons.
17 Q. Have you ever heard of a Pusula?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know that he, too, was an arms dealer?
20 A. No, I don't know that. I know that he was an extremist, and a
21 month before the war broke out he put on a camouflage uniform.
22 Q. Very well. Do you know that at the end of 1991 and beginning of
23 1992, the JNA conducted, in keeping with a decision of the Federal
24 Presidency, the taking over of the municipal archives of Secretariats of
25 National Defence which had the cards and lists of conscripts, military
1 conscripts; do you know that?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Do you know that the Muslim leadership throughout Bosnia and
5 A. Yes, I know that.
6 Q. Do you know that the president of the Zvornik municipality,
7 Abdulah Pasic -- that was his name; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That he ordered the chief of the Municipal Ministry of the
10 Interior, the chief of the municipal police, in other words, to prevent
11 the taking away of the municipal archives?
12 A. I don't know that.
13 Q. Do you know -- he didn't obey him. Do you know who was the MUP
14 head in Zvornik?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. He was a Muslim; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What was his name?
19 A. Osman Mustafic.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues]... are
21 overlapping, answering much too fast the questions that are being put to
22 you, and you are stepping over, Mr. Seselj, stepping over the answers
23 given by the witness. Again, we kindly ask you to observe a short pause
24 between question and answer, both of you.
25 Thank you.
1 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you know that according to the orders of Juzbasic, namely, the
3 chief of the municipal MUP, the municipal police actually assisted the
4 soldiers of the Tuzla Corps, helped them when this documentation was
5 being taken over?
6 A. Now you have confused the names of Juzbasic and -- actually, you
7 mean Mustafic.
8 Q. Yes, I did make a mistake. I'm sorry.
9 A. Do not apologise. I don't know. I was not in Zvornik that day.
10 Q. Himzo Tulic writes about that, so I wanted to verify whether his
11 allegations were correct. And who is Juzbasic?
12 A. He was the president of the Party of Democratic Action in
14 Q. And between him and Abdulah Pasic, there was constant strife
15 within the party?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And this conflict contributed very much to the Muslims in Zvornik
18 not actually being ready when the war broke out and not being in
20 A. I don't know whether it was this conflict, but they were never in
21 accord in any of the municipalities.
22 Q. You know that there was an order of the Yugoslav Presidency to
23 the effect that the JNA was to take over all weapons from the TO depots
24 and to place them under its control; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the JNA did so because there was a tendency, starting with
3 armies opposing the JNA through their Territorial Defence units; is that
5 A. I don't know about that.
6 Q. But you are clear on the fact that already in 1987, the
7 General Staff of the Yugoslav People's Army was renamed the General Staff
8 of the Armed Forces, so that it was superior to both the JNA and the
9 Territorial Defence; do you know that?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Immediately after taking over the municipal National Defence
12 archives, the disarmament ensued of the Territorial Defence of the
13 Glinica, which had the strongest territorial defence in that area; is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That TO unit of the Alumina factory even had its own artillery?
17 A. Yes, it did.
18 Q. Very well. Then in February, we have the stationing of an
19 armoured mechanised brigade of the JNA which arrived from Jastrebarsko,
20 which is from the surrounding parts of Zagreb; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that particular unit, as you yourself said, had its seat in
23 Sekovici, and it relocated from Dubrava. First of all, it was near
25 stationed in the Zvornik area; right?
1 A. Well, I don't know whether it was a battalion, but, anyway, key
2 positions, that's where the tanks belonging to that brigade were.
3 Q. You know where Celopek and Radalj are?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what about those two places? Was that where the main forces
6 of this battalion were stationed?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. And the main role of that particular battalion was to protect the
9 bridges along the Drina River
10 that battalion was deployed for that purpose?
11 A. That's what Colonel Tacic said.
12 Q. Now, Zvornik before that didn't have a JNA garrison of its own,
13 did it?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Therefore, with the arrival of this battalion, Zvornik gained its
16 own JNA garrison, to all intents and purposes; right?
17 A. Well, not -- Zvornik is not only the Serbian part of Zvornik.
18 Q. Well, you know the Yugoslav People's Army was a Yugoslav army,
19 the only regular Yugoslav armed force; do you agree there?
20 A. While Yugoslavia
21 Q. Well, at the beginning of 1992, there was -- Yugoslavia was still
23 A. Well, it already began to disintegrate, and the JNA became --
24 came to represent the extremist interests more and more.
25 Q. Well, Slovenia
2 and the JNA was opposed to separatists wherever they raised their heads;
4 A. Well, that's all relative, what a separatist is or is not.
5 Q. Well, if Yugoslavia
6 in the area, then I assume that the separatists were all those who wanted
7 to separate themselves from Yugoslavia
8 A. Well, that's a philosophical question.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, microphone for the accused.
10 Microphone, please.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. All right. If it's a philosophical question, I won't insist upon
14 Now, I'm sure you know that the first incident broke out between
15 the local armed Muslim population and the JNA in a place called Sapna in
16 Zvornik municipality; right?
17 A. Yes, I do know about that.
18 Q. Do you know when that happened?
19 A. I don't know the exact date, but it might have been some few
20 weeks before the war broke out.
21 Q. A member of the JNA was killed on that occasion, right, a warrant
23 A. Yes, but he was shot at first.
24 Q. The JNA column was passing through Sapna, and somewhere in the
25 centre of Sapna it came across a large number of armed Muslims; right?
1 A. I don't know the details.
2 Q. Anyway, this warrant officer of the JNA asked those Muslims to
3 surrender their arms?
4 A. I don't know anything about that incident.
5 Q. Well, how do you know that a Muslim was killed first and then
6 this warrant officer?
7 A. It was on the Belgrade
8 a soldier who was wounded, and he said that it was the army that opened
9 fire first.
10 Q. Well, I watched the news regularly, but I didn't see that. But
11 never mind, it's not important. Anyway, a number of soldiers
12 disappeared. They were arrested; right?
13 A. Well, I said I don't know the details of the incident.
14 Q. And do you know who Dragan Obrenovic is? He was the commander of
15 this battalion, the Armoured Mechanised Brigade; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know that Dragan Obrenovic threatened the armed Muslims
18 from Sapna and said that unless they returned the soldiers they had
19 captured, they would raze Sapna to the ground?
20 A. I don't know that.
21 Q. Do you know that those soldiers then were actually found and
23 A. I don't know that either, no.
24 Q. And do you know that before this final clash in April 1992, in
25 fact, in the Zvornik municipality, there were many Muslim paramilitary
1 organisations active already?
2 A. No, I don't know that.
3 Q. Well, here are the Muslim paramilitaries, paramilitary
4 organisation. They are listed by Himzo Tulic. You know where Godusa is,
5 don't you?
6 A. What did you say?
7 Q. Godusa.
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. It says in Godusa, there was mortar, and Nis, two paramilitary
10 organisations. Have you heard of them?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Then in Zvornik itself there were the Cobras. Have you heard of
13 the Cobras?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Have you heard of the Mosque Pigeons?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you heard of the HAP Platoon?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. HAP, that is a platoon that steals, right, that's the meaning of
20 the word "HAP"?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. Since I was born in Sarajevo
23 each other and "hapana," [phoen] the verb "hapana" means "to steal" in
24 the local jargon; right?
25 A. Yes, but so that the person that is stolen from doesn't notice
2 Q. Well, all right, but you always notice when something is stolen
3 from you, sometimes earlier, sometimes later. But, anyway, have you
4 heard of the Drina Zmajs or Dragons?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How about the Muslim Battalion, have you heard of that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you heard of the Satan legion, as it was called?
9 A. No.
10 Q. All those paramilitary organisations Himzo Tulic lists on
11 page 130 and 131 of his book, and the Prosecutor has had that book of his
12 for a long time. Of course, it didn't provide me with the book, so I had
13 to find it through other sources.
14 Anyway, Himzo Tulic says that all these units became the 206th
15 Zvornik Brigade. Do you know about that, that the 206th Zvornik Brigade
16 was formed sometime in the second half of 1992?
17 A. I only know about the units formed on the territory of Sapna
18 if that's that unit, then I do.
19 Q. Do you know that from the area of Zvornik municipality, by these
20 paramilitary organisations, they shot on the other side of the Drina
22 A. No, I don't know about that.
23 Q. That they frequently opened fire from artillery -- infantry
24 weapons, light weapons, and sometimes mortars too. You don't know that
1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. Do you know where the villages of Sakar and Amajlici [phoen] are?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Where?
5 A. Opposite Divici, and it's Amajic village.
6 Q. All right. You're a local man so you know that better than me.
7 I just read about it because other people provide me with information,
8 and I'm testing that information in my examination of you. So according
9 to the information that I have provided to me by Mr. Milivoje Ivanisevic,
10 who was head of the centre for research into crimes against the Serbian
11 people, it was mostly the Muslims from Zvornik municipality who used
12 artillery, mortars, infantry weapons, to fire at these villages on the
13 opposite bank of the Drina River
14 have to say to that?
15 A. Well, it seems quite unbelievable, because mostly Muslims live in
17 Q. The Muslims and Serbs lived together and they never clashed. The
18 only thing was that they were shot at from the opposite bank of the
20 100 per cent Muslim; right?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Do you know that on the 11th of February, 1993 -- no, 1992, there
23 were shots from automatic weapons fired across the Drina River
24 the Raketa bus running along the route from Bajina Basta to Belgrade in
25 Zvornik -- or, rather, from Vucica [phoen], and Vesna Zivanovic, one of
1 the passengers, was wounded, and I have the license plates of that
2 particular bus. Did you hear about that incident?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. If you've never heard of that, let's move on. Let's
5 see whether you've heard of some of these other things.
6 You've already told us here that the Serb population from Zvornik
7 municipality left their town, I think you said, two days before the
8 beginning of the conflict. Right?
9 A. That's right, yes.
10 Q. All the Serbs quite literally left Zvornik; right?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Now, what organisation could it be to force the entire Serbian
13 population, and the Serbs amounted to over 40 per cent of the inhabitants
14 of town, to leave their apartments and homes and flee across the Drina
15 River, leaving behind all their property? What kind of organisation
16 would be capable of putting something like that into effect?
17 A. Well, I've already said that it's almost -- it's quite
18 unbelievable how well organised and well disciplined it was. Now, what
19 organisation would be capable of doing that, I said I didn't know.
20 Q. Well, historically speaking, the Serbs were never a disciplined,
21 well-disciplined nation. There's a proverb that says that each Serb has
22 a policy, an idea of his own, and now suddenly you have them pulling
23 together, deciding to leave all their property behind and flee across the
24 Drina River
25 There must be another reason for them fleeing en masse.
1 A. I don't know what to say to that.
2 Q. Well, the reason for that was that the Muslim leadership of the
3 municipality and the SDA Party previously tried to pull in the worst
4 Muslims in the paramilitary organisations to loot in town, abuse the
5 population, and so on and so forth. They tried to recruit these people?
6 A. No, that's not right.
7 Q. So you're saying that these criminals were not mobilised and
8 recruited into the paramilitary units?
9 A. Not as far as I know.
10 Q. And do you know that as soon as the Serbs left Zvornik, that
11 their homes were looted?
12 A. I don't know that, no.
13 Q. Well, I find that strange that you don't know about that, because
14 these are well-known facts. And do you know that Alija Izetbegovic, as
15 president of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 4th of April
16 issued an order by which all Muslim conscripts should be mobilised into
17 special units of the Territorial Defence which would be outside JNA
19 A. Through the Municipal Secretariat, that is to say the SUP, we did
20 receive orders of that kind for mobilisation, but there was no question
21 of separating from the JNA. And, in fact, that order was never able to
22 be implemented, because if you mobilise someone, you have to provide
23 accommodation and food and all the other facilities. So that was an
24 illusion that was never put into effect.
25 Q. And when was the Crisis Staff established in Zvornik?
1 A. About two or three days before the conflict broke out.
2 Q. And that Crisis Staff was formed by the Muslim Party of
3 Democratic Action, right, the SDA?
4 A. Well, that Crisis Staff was automatically established. Now, who
5 came from the municipality? They were mostly prominent citizens who went
6 to the SUP
7 anything like -- no call-up or anything like that.
8 Q. They almost laid down an ultimatum and told the JNA to return its
9 weapons to the TO from the depots?
10 A. No, there was no question of that.
11 Q. And did you know that already at the meetings of the Crisis Staff
12 that were held, there was a clash between the two Muslim factions?
13 A. You're speaking about a crisis staff which I didn't know was in
15 Q. Well, Himzo Tulic is writing about that, and I didn't know of
16 their existence before I read his book. On page 15 of his book, he
17 refers to the Crisis Staff of the Party of Democratic Action, the SDA.
18 Do you believe what Himzo Tulic writes?
19 A. Well, I know Himzo Tulic personally. I know him to be a serious
20 intellectual, a fellow citizen, but I wouldn't like to delve into other
21 matters, about whether what he writes is true or false.
22 Q. Well, I don't think one can believe him in all the things he
23 says, but some things you can believe, especially when he describes the
24 situation among the Muslim ranks. I think he was fairly objective in
25 describing that situation. He speaks about Muslim-Serb relations in a
1 slightly heated manner, but there's no reason for him not to be objective
2 when he describes the situation among the Muslims.
3 A. Well, I don't want to go into his reasons. That's his own
5 Q. Do you know that the activists of the Party of Democratic Action
6 on several occasions journeyed to Sarajevo to ask for mediation in that
7 conflict of theirs?
8 A. Yes, I do know about that.
9 Q. Do you know that one stream, one faction, was supported by Omer
10 Bekber [phoen] and the other by Hasan Cengic?
11 A. No, I don't know that.
12 Q. Do you know that several days before the conflict broke out, one
13 of those two sides wanted to prove, at a meeting of the Crisis Staff,
14 that it had armed the Muslim people well, and if it came to war, the
15 Serbian Democratic Party and the JNA would stand no chance?
16 A. No, I don't know about that.
17 Q. It was so persuasive that most of the people believed it, and
18 Himzo Tulic claims that you weren't allowed to lie to the people, he says
19 that on page 16 of his book, and that this in fact led to a greater
20 defeat of the Muslim forces than could ever have been expected, this
21 conceit, in actual fact. What do you have to say to that?
22 A. Well, I think that in the Zvornik municipality, there was no
23 respectable military unit with any manoeuvre -- manoeuvring power which
24 would be successful in standing up to the Yugoslav People's Army, which
25 had tanks and all the rest of the equipment.
1 Q. Well, you were proved right ultimately. However, these Muslim
2 politicians didn't understand that at the time, and they were conceited
3 and thought that they could be victorious in that conflict? They deluded
4 themselves, in fact; right?
5 A. Well, it wasn't the only erroneous evaluation made by that
6 leadership. Later on, we found that all their assessments were wrong and
7 all their plans were wrong.
8 Q. Well, I think you're quite right when you say that. And when
9 this arming started of the local criminals and the setting up of
10 paramilitary groups, is it correct that all Serbian policemen fled
12 A. Well, the SUP
13 to Karakaj. And the reason for that separation was not the arming of
14 criminals, because that is not correct. They simply got such a
16 Q. But wait a minute. Some fled with arms, and some didn't even
17 manage to get arms and they rushed to Karakaj; isn't that so?
18 A. I don't know in what way they left.
19 Q. And Karakaj is a suburb of Zvornik mainly inhabited by Serbs; is
20 that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And between the Serbian suburbs and the center of the city, there
23 were barricades put up on both sides, the Serbian and the Muslim?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Armed guards manned the roadblocks, the barricades, and they
1 controlled all traffic; is that right?
2 A. That is right.
3 Q. So there wasn't a single route leading from the centre of Zvornik
4 in any direction that didn't have Muslim barricades on one side and the
5 Serbian barricades on the other; am I right?
6 A. The Muslims put up roadblocks in Zvornik two days before the war,
7 and the Serbs had done that a month before the war. One could not leave
8 Zvornik either towards Tuzla
9 Q. First of all, this didn't happen until the Serbian police fled
11 A. I don't know what the link is between these two events.
12 Q. Tell me, how many Serbs were there in the Zvornik police force,
13 on the Zvornik police force? Was it proportionate to the number of
15 A. I don't know those ratios.
16 Q. But one could say half/half, perhaps a bit less of the Muslims,
17 but approximately the same?
18 A. Well, the municipal structures were quite correctly divided, both
19 in the SUP
20 Q. Very well. How was -- how did it happen that a part of the
21 weapons was distributed to the Muslim side?
22 Himzo Tulic writes about that on the 18th page of his book. This
23 is for the benefit of the OTP.
24 A. This distribution never took place, actually, or not that I know
25 of. I think that this is a mistake on the part of Mr. Tulic, because the
1 weapons were in Tuzla
2 May that the JNA left Tuzla
3 Q. But the Crisis Staff in Zvornik did have at its disposal -- the
4 Muslim Crisis Staff in Zvornik did have some weapons at its disposal.
5 Why would Himzo Tulic have made that up? He was not
6 anti-Muslim-inclined. On the contrary.
7 A. I don't know anything about those facts.
8 Q. All right. You spoke about the arrest of these four Arkan's men
9 who had arrived -- who had come against a Muslim roadblock at Karakaj, at
10 the entrance to Zvornik.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you sure all four of them were Arkan's men?
13 A. They had identity cards which showed that they belonged to
14 Arkan's units.
15 Q. As you were in touch with them, do you remember that anyone or
16 someone from Belgrade
17 leadership and insisted that these four men be released?
18 A. I don't know that.
19 Q. Have you heard of General Nedjo Boskovic?
20 A. No, I haven't.
21 Q. Fine. I have already presented here the statement -- a statement
22 of one of these four. His name is Vojin Vuckovic, Zuco, and he claims
23 that the four of them had been ordered by Nedjo Boskovic to go to
24 Zvornik, find Pusula, arrest him, and bring him to Belgrade on account of
25 his arms dealing. Do you know anything about that?
1 A. No, I don't know anything about that.
2 Q. Were you told anything about that by these four arrested men?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Why would they have sets of handcuffs with them?
5 A. Each one of them had a set of handcuffs. Later, one of them
6 committed some mass murders in Karakaj.
7 Q. But all this happened later?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. We know what happened later, but you are giving testimony up to
10 the time of this conflict, because after it you were not in Zvornik.
11 That is why I'm asking you only these questions. I know what the role of
12 his unit was afterwards. He claims that at this Muslim roadblock, they
13 were stopped by a group of some 20 Muslims without any patches, without
14 any emblems or markings and uniforms. They were in civilian clothes.
15 They had Hungarian Klashnikovs, they were armed with Hungarian automatic
16 rifles. Do you know anything about that?
17 A. I think that this is an exaggerated number, 20. I know that two
18 people from Zvornik brought them to the SUP building. They were these
19 local smugglers.
20 Q. Do you know how dangerous and how capable, in the military sense,
21 people are, that it is impossible for a couple of people, citizens of
22 Zvornik, even if they are armed to the teeth, to actually arrest them and
23 bring them in? It had to have been a larger unit.
24 A. I would not venture an opinion, an assessment, about their
25 military training or capacity, capability.
1 Q. Do you know who Sinan Kameric [phoen] is?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 Q. Do you know who the brothers Mustafa and Benjamin Halilovic are?
4 A. Yes, I know they're from Zvornik.
5 Q. Are they known as criminals -- were they known as criminals
6 before the war?
7 A. No, they were not.
8 Q. Well, according to the information that I have obtained by my
9 investigators, they were criminals even before the war and they were in
10 the group that arrested Legija, Zuco, and another two persons.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Will the accused and witness please pause
12 between question and answer.
13 A. These Mustafic brothers were holiest. They did not loot, they
14 were not criminals. They had no convictions, were never in prison.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, my associates recently
16 visited Milorad Lukovic, Legija, at the Central Prison in Belgrade
17 know that he also is implicated in the murder of Zoran Djindjic. They
18 interviewed him, and he wrote an extensive statement in his own hand,
19 which was authenticated by the prison authorities.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you're examining
21 the witness, you're not testifying yourself.
22 And may I take this opportunity to remind both of you, once
23 again, please to observe a short pause between question and answer,
24 because the interpreters cannot follow you, and thus they cannot
25 interpret what you are telling to each other.
1 Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I have to tell you that my
3 associates have this important statement, which I would be using today
4 had not all my communication with my legal advisers been severed. So
5 that statement has not reached me, unfortunately, but I did have to
6 comment on this in this way.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: As I believe the Prosecution has already
8 indicated to the Chamber, we object to the accused making these wrong
9 representations regarding his communication with his Defence counsel --
10 his associates. His communication has not been cut off. It is being
11 monitored, but he's able to communicate with them.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will shortly
13 hand down a decision on this particular subject.
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Whatever the case may be,
15 Mr. Seselj, this statement would have been in Serbian, or has the
16 statement been translated?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It would certainly be in Serbian,
18 because I speak no other language. And I just don't have time -- I don't
19 have enough time to learn any other language. I'd love to learn Italian,
20 Madam Lattanzi, that's the desire of my life, but not English.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, that is another question.
22 You have the duty to ask the translation department to translate
23 those documents which you wish to adduce during the hearing, because the
24 Bench is not familiar with the Serbian language.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me seize the opportunity,
1 Mr. Seselj, briefly. I'm looking at the clock.
2 The Trial Chamber has given you credit for translation purposes.
3 I think you're entitled to something like 10.000 pages, if I'm not
4 mistaken. So all this is costly for the Tribunal, and to date I believe
5 we -- this has not materialised. You have so far not shown a single
6 translated document.
7 You mentioned the name of this person, who is currently in jail,
8 who has provided you with a statement. This might be very interesting
9 and very important to you. This is something that you could have had
10 translated, and in that case you could have adduced it today.
11 This is what I wanted to tell you. Please proceed.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, had I received it on
13 time, I would have probably have given it for translation, but I cannot
14 tell my associates, "Send me this or that," even though the Registry is
15 monitoring communication, because I don't know what is in the statement.
16 Maybe Legija wrote that there had been five people in the car and that I
17 was the fifth person, and I cannot have the Registry see that. If it is
18 in the vehicle that I was in the car with Legija and Zuca, and the
19 Registry would give it immediately to the OTP, and the OTP would have it
20 on paper that I was the fifth person in the car. So until I have seen it
21 and verified what is in it, it cannot reach any other hands, including
22 that of the Registry. That is the problem.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Seselj, the Registry will not pass on,
24 neither to the Prosecution, nor to the Bench, any of the information that
25 they may become familiar with during the monitoring of your
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is so, in theory,
3 Judge Harhoff. That is the way it would have to be from the legal
4 aspect, but the distance between legal regulations and the actual state
5 of affairs is huge. I have no trust whatsoever in the Registry, and I
6 have a lot of argumentation to corroborate that with.
7 But shall I continue? What I want to do is just to present my
8 problem, but you know --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It has to be recorded. I also
10 want to be very clear as to the tapping.
11 If the Registrar does not communicate anything to the Judges or
12 to the Prosecutor, what is the point of having that service, that
14 Now it's recorded. Continue.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I understood that
16 the accused was referring to the documents he received, and that
17 Judge Harhoff also referred to the documents and not to the outcome of
18 the tapping itself. That's how I understood. Maybe I was wrong.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.
20 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Here I have a statement of Colonel Tacic, who was the commander
22 of this armoured mechanised brigade, and he claims in it --
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.
25 The Judges have discussed the issue of monitoring by the Registry
1 of documents. It is a very complicated matter that may be such as to be
2 divisive among the Judges, so I think it's better to move on to other
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As I do not have much time at my
5 disposal, I'm not going to present the entire statement of Colonel Tacic,
6 but I will interpret a part of the substance.
7 Colonel Tacic says that the moment his brigade arrived in the
8 area, he intensified to the maximum his contacts with the leadership of
9 the -- of Zvornik municipality, especially with the Muslim leaders. And
10 he states their names, starting with Abdulah Pasic and on, and that he
11 wished for a constructive atmosphere to be created for tensions to be
12 eased, and for that JNA unit to be the guarantor of peace and security in
13 the general area of Zvornik.
14 Q. Is it your impression that Colonel Tacic indeed tried to achieve
15 something like that?
16 A. You're asking me?
17 Q. I have nobody else to ask. Nobody else will answer my questions,
18 to tell you frankly.
19 A. Well, until the outbreak of the conflict, I agree with his
20 statement and his claim. But, however, he is a professional soldier who
21 followed orders that he received from his superior, and the moment he was
22 ordered to open fire on Zvornik, he did so.
23 Q. In the statement given by Colonel Tacic to me, he claims that his
24 unit had manning problems, that he had at his disposal quite a lot of
25 hardware and weaponry, but he had few men, because when the unit was
1 moved from Jastrebarsko, from near Zagreb, the Muslims, the Slovenes, the
2 Croats and partly the Muslims left -- simply left the units, so that this
3 attrition of his unit was a problem that he was faced with throughout his
4 stay in that area. Did you know that he had problems with manpower?
5 A. He actually complained that he lacked rear facilities, that he
6 lacked cooks and mechanics, and that he could take some on if this center
7 of ours was given to him.
8 Q. But he also needed infantry, because tanks cannot function really
9 successfully without infantry crews; is that right?
10 A. Yes, those are the fundaments of military tactics.
11 Q. I believe that this entire region from Karakaj to Bijeljina was
12 already without question, but he mobilised military conscripts in order
13 to man his unit and to make his unit efficient, but his problem was that
14 only Serbs responded to the call for mobilisation and the Muslims evaded
15 it. Is that correct?
16 A. No, it is not correct. He actually launched this call-up after
17 the conflict had broke out, when it was quite clear that there would be
18 an attack on Zvornik.
19 Q. When was it clear to you that there would be an attack on
21 A. After these talks that we had in Mali Zvornik.
22 Q. But these talks actually happened a day prior to the attack, but
23 what matters here is that mobilisation was carried out and that unit was
24 replenished. Why would the unit attack Zvornik at all, an armoured
25 mechanised brigade, if it was the only military force in the Zvornik
1 area? Who was it to attack? There was no one for it to attack. It was
2 in control of everything. It was the only military force in the area.
3 Everything was doing their job, the police was doing its job, the
4 citizens were going to work. It was a normal life, business as usual.
5 Was it not like that?
6 A. No, it was like that.
7 Q. But explain it to me. Why not?
8 A. Well, Zvornik was attacked in order to be ethnically cleansed.
9 The Serbs had not fled, that was not it at all. The Serbs simply
10 vanished from Zvornik. And on the pretext of -- actually, I would like
11 it to be corrected, that all these units that you enumerated indeed
12 existed in Bosnia
13 was not the case. This job was to be done, this other one.
14 Q. But tell me, how was it that the Serbs simply vanished and the
15 Muslims fled or were being driven away, expelled or similar? One should
16 think when a civil war breaks out, and that was a civil war between the
17 Orthodox Serbs and the Muslims, let us leave the Croats for the time
18 being aside, because there were not many of them in that part of Bosnia
19 how come that some vanished and others were driven away? Were not those
20 Serbs ethnically cleansed if it was only a couple of days before that
21 final showdown, final conflict, that they disappeared from Zvornik?
22 A. Yes, but they came back a couple of days after the ethnic
23 cleansing of Zvornik had taken place.
24 Q. The Serbs returned after the Muslim military units had been
25 defeated; isn't that correct?
1 A. No, it isn't.
2 Q. All right. You say it's not. Let's leave it at that. Now, tell
3 me, please, if that is not the case, tell me, then, how come Kula Grad,
4 for a full 20 days, resisted the JNA, and the JNA had the Territorials,
5 the police force, volunteers, and even Arkan's men within its
6 composition, so they managed to prevail for 20 days? They resisted
7 tanks, cannons, mortars. How could they do that if the Muslims were
8 unarmed and if they didn't have their military formations? How would
9 they have been able to do that?
10 A. Well, during those 20 days, there wasn't a single serious
11 infantry attack launched. They just shelled the area, and the infantry
12 didn't engage in any decisive combat.
13 Q. My information tells me that there were infantry attacks and that
14 the Serbs had suffered serious losses. Even Arkan's man Rambo, whatever
15 his name was, that prominent member of his unit. Have you heard of
17 A. No, but I did hear that one of Arkan's men were killed, one of
18 his close associates.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, fine. Now perhaps
20 you'll insist, Judges, that this be heard in closed session, in private
21 session, although I'm opposed to that but I can't prevent you. Because I
22 have a number of questions now which might help disclose this person's
23 identity, so it's up to you to decide.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Closed session, Mr. Registrar,
25 or private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 11741 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
21 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Do you know that when the Muslim soldiers withdrew to Kula Grad,
23 that they received reinforcements there from Kalesija and Zivinice?
24 A. That's not true.
25 Q. How do you know it's not true?
1 A. Because there was no organisation at all which could accomplish
2 that. They were just verbal -- there was just verbal support. But in
3 practice, it didn't function. It was the mentality of the HAP Platoon.
4 Q. The HAP Platoon. Did the HAP Platoon appear up there?
5 A. No, the HAP ward -- the HAP Platoon was established later after
7 Q. Do you know who Izet Mehinagic is?
8 A. Yes, it sounds familiar.
9 Q. Well, it sounds familiar too. We were colleagues in the Students
11 studied political science. Right?
12 A. No.
13 Q. What did he study?
14 A. Machine engineering.
15 Q. Right, machine engineering, but he was the secretary of the
16 Municipal Board of the Student Alliance
17 Have you any news of him?
18 A. No.
19 Q. But why I'm asking you is this: After the Muslim forces withdrew
20 from Zvornik, he held, together with Asim Juzbasic -- do you know who
21 Asim Juzbasic is?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. As I was saying, he held a press conference in Tuzla on the 10th
24 of April, 1992, and this was published the day after by the main
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina newspaper, 'Oslobodjenje', said that the Serb forces
1 had quite a number of wounded and killed, and that the Muslim forces,
2 until the departure, had about 15 wounded and 1 killed. Did you hear
3 about that press conference of theirs?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right, fine. Now, did you hear that there were indeed quite
6 a lot of Serbs who lost their lives in that fighting?
7 A. No, I never heard that.
8 Q. Except from that statement of theirs; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. Now, you describe -- but is that true, is what you
11 said correct? Well, to tell you the truth, I wasn't there, I can't say
12 either way. You were closer to the events than I was. Perhaps you don't
13 know the whole truth of it, but you're a witness here and you're
14 testifying, I assume, to the best of your knowledge and your life
15 experience, the experiences you had there which unfortunately were very
16 difficult and tragic. So I can't be ill disposed towards you, because
17 your experience was worse than mine. And there is a little humanity in
18 me, so somebody who went through troubles like you, I don't want to
19 mistreat. I want to have a dialogue with you so that you can give
20 yes-or-no answers. It's up to me to ask you and up to you to answer.
21 A. That's how I understood it, and I think that I was proper in my
22 conduct with you thus far.
23 Q. Well, yes, you were, but you have no reason to be disrespectful.
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. I'm seeing you here for the first time, and I don't think that
1 you testified untruthfully. I think you testified to the best of your
2 ability according to your experiences. Now, in every testimony there are
3 weak points, and it's up to me to find those weak points. Do you agree.
4 A. Yes. Go ahead.
5 Q. Now, what is particularly important, as far as I'm concerned here
6 is the following: Now, you described and said that you were observing
7 from your vantage point on the hill when the Serb JNA forces entered
8 Zvornik. You were observing that, and you said that Arkan's men in the
9 village -- what was the name of that village, Namlaz [phoen]? Well, it
10 was a settlement.
11 A. No, it's Zamlaz and Hrid, and it's part of Zvornik.
12 Q. Very well. Anyway, in your statement, this is what you say. You
13 say that you had binoculars and that from a distance, that is to say, up
14 on the hill where you were, you were able to see Arkan's men. You
15 recognised them by their uniforms. And you say you saw the four young
16 men whom you had previously arrested and taken to the police station in
17 Zvornik. And that's to be found on page 7 of your statement; right?
18 A. No, it's not. I didn't mention that.
19 Q. Well, then somebody put that in contrary to your will. Did the
20 Prosecutor show you your statement today?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did you notice it?
23 A. What page?
24 Q. Page 7. You say you saw Arkan's men because they had the same
25 uniforms as the four young men "whom we arrested and took to the police
1 station in Zvornik." That's what you allegedly said.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.
3 MR. MARCUSSEN: The accused has clarified his questions on that
4 point here, so I have nothing.
5 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
6 Q. So judging by their uniforms, you recognised them to be Arkan's
8 A. Yes, I assumed that was the case, yes.
9 Q. And in Zamlaz, you saw them in front of the building. You saw
10 them taking out a group of men, among whom there was Sabit Bilalic with
11 his two sons, and that they shot at them; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, I don't doubt that this crime occurred, because we had
14 witnesses who were eyewitnesses to that crime and indeed testified that
15 Sabit Bilalic and his two sons were killed, along with another number of
16 Muslims, some 20 Muslims. I'm not sure of the exact figure. But it's a
17 little strange to me that you could have seen this from Mladjevac Hill,
18 so I'd like to ask you now whether you learned about this liquidation in
19 Zamlaz from some other people and then you mixed it up in your mind and
20 you thought you'd seen it actually happen with your own eyes.
21 A. Well, I did see it with my very own eyes.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's a little strange, in
23 my opinion, so I'd like to take a look at the map that the Prosecutor
24 showed us earlier on. And as I am able to find my way quite well in
25 maps -- on maps, I personally think that that is impossible, so can we
1 have the map back, the one in which the witness marked the various
2 locations? Can we have it back on our screens, please?
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Let me explain this to you better. I believe that the incident
6 took place and that that liquidation did take place, but I have a problem
7 here, and it's to do with your memory and how you remember it. I assume
8 that people told you about it and that you couldn't have actually
9 witnessed it yourself from your position up on the hill. So let's take a
10 look at that. And I assume that you can do map-reading fairly well, too,
11 so let's look at the map and see what we come up with.
12 Now, here we have the map, so you can see where Mladjevac Hill is
13 near Divic. Were you on top of that hill?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Where were you, then?
16 A. I was on the slopes below Kula Grad.
17 Q. So between Mladjevac and Kula Grad?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Below Mladjevac Hill?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I can see that that is an elevation of 524 metres. Right?
22 A. Well, I can't see that, but --
23 Q. It says so on the map. Now, tell me, how far below Mladjevac
24 Peak were you, looking towards Kula Grad?
25 A. Well, it was a slope. I was on a slope which might have been
1 some several hundred metres.
2 Q. You mean below the top of the hill?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, you're looking at Kula Grad in front of you?
5 A. No, it's to my side.
6 Q. Right, Kula Grad is to your side, and it runs right towards the
8 by that way several times in my car. I know that. So the fortress is on
9 the edge of the water, and you have the hill in front of you, and the
10 highest peak at which Kula Grad lies is at an altitude of 524 metres.
11 And you're far below the peak, down a slope several hundred metres, which
12 doesn't mean that it's several hundred metres below the peak, because
13 there's an angle of inclination for a slope.
14 Now, show me something that the Prosecutor wouldn't allow you to
15 do, and that is indicate where Zamlaz is.
16 A. Zamlaz is located -- but that happened in Hrid.
17 Q. You mean the liquidation?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But we have eyewitness testimony that it was in Zamlaz
20 settlement, and the Prosecutor called certain witnesses who said that.
21 And where is Hrid? You indicated it to us on the map. Hrid is roughly
22 two kilometres away from Mladjevac, right, from the top of Mladjevac
24 A. Yes. And now as the crow flies, it's less than one and a half
1 Q. But you were far below this altitude of 524 metres?
2 MR. MARCUSSEN: It seems that we have a whole series of
3 compounded questions. I wonder whether the accused would like the
4 witness to mark on the map or not, because so far nothing has been
5 marked. The witness pointed to the map, but not with the kind of pen
6 that can mark on the map, so does the accused want any markings? Then
7 I think we should have them [indiscernible].
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, if you want these
9 series of questions to be useful, you need to ask the witness to mark the
10 map, a clean map. And we can display a clean map, if you intend to
11 request the admission of this map. But if it's not your intention, then
12 I believe this line of questions is totally useless.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if it is to no avail, it's to
14 my own detriment, Mr. President.
15 In the statement on page 7 the witness says that the distance
16 between him and Zvornik had been 500 metres as the crow flies. That is
17 on page 5 of his statement. If that distance, looking on the map, was
18 two kilometres, as the distance as the crow flies between the place where
19 he was and the Hrid settlement, has to be bigger if you use the
20 Pythagoras theory, and we can actually calculate the distance, because
21 the distance the crow flies is not under the right angle, he's not
22 looking at the right angle. He is at a certain elevation, and he is
23 looking on events which are down in the valley, at an elevation much
24 lower than his position. So the distance between him and that place
25 cannot be two kilometres. But following Pythagoras' theory, it has to be
1 a much bigger distance. So if we calculated exactly, I don't know what
2 the elevation of the city of Zvornik
3 elevation than Mladjevac, but that distance has to be 3 or 3.5
4 kilometres. So I wonder what kind of binoculars that he had if he was
5 able to see all that.
6 But I'm not challenging the truthfulness of his statement. I'm
7 just seeking to show that there has to be a mistake in his memory, even
8 though he has no intention of falsely testifying. It is impossible to
9 discern what was happening so clearly from Mladjevac Hill in the area
10 where he says these incidents happened.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay. We've listened -- in
12 fact, Witness, you've listened to the submissions of the accused based on
13 the theorem of Pythagoras, so what do you have to say? Do you agree or
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the distance between my
16 position and where these events happened was less than a kilometre,
17 because from Divici to the center of Zvornik, it is two kilometres, so
18 that this distance, the two rectangles, is quite correct. I was under
19 Divici about a -- below Divici about a kilometre, and this position is in
20 front of Zvornik, so that this is actually a much smaller distance than
21 what the accused claims.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, would it be possible for you with a
23 pen to mark with just one single dot exactly where you think you were
24 standing when you saw the executions at Hrid?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are constantly in a rush, and
1 constantly climbing up, and constantly observing and looking on, but
2 basically we moved about in this region which I've already marked.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've been asked to do
4 something that could be extremely useful for us. Please indicate, with a
5 dot, the place -- the location where you were when you witnessed these
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'll mark this area here
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: And the record should reflect that it's now a
11 black circle that has been made.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's on the record, but we
13 could give a new number to the map.
14 Mr. Registrar, can we have another number for the map.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this should be Exhibit number D20.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Registrar, that cannot be true. 630,
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: I apologise.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Here we are faced with a legal
22 problem. The Registrar just gave the map the following number, D20.
23 It's a Defence exhibit. If that's the case, Mr. Seselj, it means that
24 you requested a number for this exhibit. It may have escaped you, but
25 nothing escapes me. So I see that at line 8 of page 98, Exhibit
1 number D20 has been given to this map. In other words, this map has been
2 tendered into evidence based on your request.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you know that I do
4 not ask for anything. I just wanted to demonstrate, in practice for you,
5 how it is possible for something to be erroneous in somebody's memory
6 without there being an intention on the witness's part to testify
7 falsely. I only think that it is possible for the witness to confuse
8 what he had heard from other people and what he had seen with his very
9 own eyes, because he could have recognised from that hill Sabit Bilalic
10 and his two sons only if he had watched them with a telescope.
11 But that is of no importance for my further cross-examination,
12 because I have concluded my cross-examination with this question.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine, you've completed your
15 What we're going to do is we're going to give a Trial Chamber
16 number to this exhibit. Mr. Registrar, please remove this exhibit
17 number, D20, and we're going to give a "C" number to this exhibit.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Correction. In the transcript, this exhibit
19 won't be given Exhibit number D20. Instead, it will be given Exhibit
20 number C9. Thank you, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have five minutes left
22 before the break. Mr. Marcussen, any re-examination?
23 MR. MARCUSSEN: No, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, on my behalf and on
25 behalf of my colleagues, thank you for having come and testified in
1 The Hague
2 Please do not leave the courtroom before we draw down the blinds,
3 but I'm going to ask the Registrar for us to move into private session
4 immediately. I have something to tell you all.
5 [Private session]
11 Page 11754 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I hope that what you
15 said -- this last thing which you said was not for private session, that
16 it could have been disclosed to the public.
17 I should just like to correct it to tell you that I did not ask
18 for the Registrar to inform me of Rule 45 ter. I asked for him to inform
19 me of the recently-adopted amendments of the Rules, and then he brought
20 me this new Rule as an amendment of the Rules. It was not a Rule 45 ter
21 that I asked for. I asked them to inform me of any changes to the Rules.
22 Otherwise, they do this very frequently. The Rules are amended twice
23 every year, and they never think of it, to inform me themselves, so I
24 always have to remind them and insist on it.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The only change was the
1 amendment of this Rule.
2 We have no more witness for this week. Let us hope that next
3 week will be better, as good as it can. I know that the Prosecution will
4 do their level best, and the legal officer will let Mr. Seselj know as
5 soon as we have further, more specific information.
6 I wish you all a good evening. We shall reconvene on Tuesday at
7 8.30, since we work in the mornings.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day of
10 November, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.