Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13605

 1                           Wednesday, 28 January 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 8.30 a.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 6     call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honour.  This is case number

 8     IT-03-67-T.  The Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.  This is

10     public open session and in open session I would like to welcome everyone

11     in this courtroom, now to be the representatives of the OTP.  I also

12     welcome Mr. Seselj and our new legal officer who just started, and who is

13     in this courtroom for the first time.

14             I also welcome our Registrar, our usher, and our court reporter,

15     as well as the interpreters helping us.

16             Before giving the floor to Mr. Seselj who has three matters to

17     raise, I would like to tell him right away the following:  Last week

18     there was no hearing, the Trial Chamber believed that the two witnesses

19     that were scheduled to be withdrawn, and the Trial Chamber made a

20     Scheduling Order requesting the OTP to give the schedule for five

21     witnesses and the schedule has been circulated to each and every one.  I

22     believe that you have obtained it also, Mr. Seselj.

23             The Trial Chamber will rule after having received your written

24     submissions as to the request made by the OTP to stay the proceedings,

25     the Trial Chamber is asking you, Mr. Seselj, to send us your written

Page 13606

 1     submissions as fast as possible so that the Trial Chamber can make its

 2     decision in light of the OTP's written submissions as well as your own

 3     submissions.

 4             This is a very important topic, and we need to render a written

 5     decision on this.  I believe that this will be a crucial decision.

 6             So, Mr. Seselj, we are waiting for your written submissions in

 7     this respect because you are the first one involved here.  Now, maybe

 8     this is what you wanted to talk about, so I will give you the floor.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, first of all I'd like to say

10     something that I hadn't planned to say with respect to what you've just

11     said, Mr. President.  And I'll make your job easier straightaway.  I'm

12     not going to tender any written submission.  I'm absolutely astounded --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Just a minute, I believe that

14     there is a problem, I do not have French interpretation.  I did not

15     receive French interpretation.  There may be a problem with the channels.

16     French is on 5 normally.  Could French interpreters please talk on the

17     French channel, on channel 5.  Very well, they were -- they are in the

18     Albanian booth, actually, so everything is fine.

19             Mr. Seselj, you can go ahead.

20   (redacted)

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 7                           [Private Session]

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11 Pages 13610-13620 redacted. Private session.















Page 13621

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16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in open session.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Given the fact that for a full four

19     months, I have not been able to have normal cooperation a my legal

20     advisors given the fact that this is how I've been preparing in order to

21     appropriately conduct the cross-examination of Prosecution witnesses,

22     especially those enjoying protective measures, I have no choice but to

23     use documents submitted to me by the OTP.  Again, I must tell you this,

24     the Prosecutor has not been particularly conscientious with this, and

25     they have not been keeping up with their documents and with their

Page 13622

 1     disclosure obligations.  There is a witness who is bound to appear in the

 2     courtroom.  Their duty is to forward to me all the transcripts of all the

 3     evidence provided by that witness in previous trials.  In this case the

 4     witness testified in the single trial, the Milosevic trial, the

 5     transcript was submitted to me based on a book published by Natasa Kandic

 6     in Belgrade.  The parts of his evidence given in closed session are

 7     missing.  And then the Prosecutor submits to me these closed session

 8     transcripts on the 18th of March last year.  A total of 20 pages of the

 9     record.  I have them in front me as we speak as a matter of fact.

10             Now I've been comparing them to the open session transcript, and

11     I have just reached the conclusion that there are pages missing over the

12     weekend.  Between 18656 and 18662, six pages missing.  So we have 18, the

13     first two digits always, and then 663 to 665 missing again.  684 to 691,

14     missing.  694 to 695, missing.  There, anyone can have a look for

15     themselves, anyone can have a look at what I got from the Prosecutor and

16     can see for themselves what exactly is missing.

17             Next thing, tomorrow the witness is about to appear --

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  I will try and

19     settle this problem.  I'm a little bit surprised by what you are saying,

20     Mr. Seselj.  If the Prosecution discloses to Mr. Seselj a transcript of

21     what the witness may have said in another trial, in that case, you are

22     given all the pages on the transcript.  How can pages be missing?

23     Mr. Mundis, I find it difficult to understand this.  Mr. Mussemeyer also.

24             MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, just give us a few moments if you

25     would.  My case manager is diligently checking our records to determine

Page 13623

 1     what exactly is disclosed, and if, in fact, there is a gap in any of the

 2     page numbers.  But it might take her a few moments to run through all

 3     those page ranges.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any

 6     interpretation of what Mr. Mundis said.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me translate what he has

 8     just said, he just said that they are currently checking with their case

 9     manager what documents have actually been disclosed to you.  You will be

10     told very shortly.

11             What is the second point?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now for something that I find

13     exceptionally important in relation to tomorrow's witness.  I think he is

14     not a protective witness, but it doesn't matter because I wasn't about to

15     mention his name anyway.  Names don't matter to me.  You know full well

16     that I challenge the fact that volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party

17     would have been sent to Samac.  However, some members of the Serbian

18     Radical Party were involved in the fighting in Samac, that much is true.

19     And they were involved in the units of the JNA.  Among them

20     Srecko Radovanovic who had undergone special training because he had an

21     outstanding record in Slavonia as a volunteer.  So he arrived with a unit

22     that was part of the 17th tactical group.  They arrived in Samac.  Now,

23     the Prosecutor had an obligation to submit to me the evidence of Slavko

24     [indiscernible] in his capacity as a suspect.  They submitted this to me

25     on the 8th of July, 2008, which is the first day of the interview the

Page 13624

 1     17th of January 2003.  I had not previously had an opportunity to go

 2     through this.  I only have now in preparation for this testimony.  I see

 3     that the next day is missing of the interview.  I have 52 pages in

 4     relation to day one of the interview, and I see that this continues on

 5     the following day, but I have nothing on the following day.  I've gone

 6     through all the documents, and I haven't found this yet, perhaps it was

 7     disclosed to me later on.  So they should speak up and say whether they

 8     have, in fact, disclosed this or not, but I don't have it.  And I believe

 9     they were under obligation to disclose this to me in its entirety.  Quite

10     aside from the fact that the Aleksandar Vasiljevic interview hasn't been

11     disclose today me yet, Certain portions.  Jovika Panic [phoen], same

12     thing.  All day at the beginning of last year, you told them explicitly

13     to do just that and to comply.  And now to top it all off on the 2nd of

14     June, 2008, I received confirmation from the OTP that they were

15     disclosing to me the statement of Srecko Radovanovic dated the 26th of

16     November, 2002.  Needless to say, I put this away in a certain folder, a

17     folder about Srecko Radovanovic.  And I don't read immediately everything

18     I get from the OTP, but just as I see fit.  Now, I'm preparing for

19     tomorrow's witness, I pick up this document, and I realise that in the

20     attachment what I find is not Srecko Radovanovic's statement.  Now, we

21     don't even know whether Srecko Radovanovic gave a statement like that

22     because what I find in my attachment is a statement of

23     Srecko Borisavljevic, a JNA officer, a totally different person.  Here

24     you can have it, your own expert can have a look and see this was stapled

25     together.  No interventions were made, no one even touched this.  So

Page 13625

 1     instead of Srecko Radovanovic's statement dated the 2nd of June, 2008,

 2     what I get is Srecko Borisavljevic's statement.  Am I suppose prepare for

 3     a trial like this?

 4             On the other hand, you take away my ability to prepare with the

 5     assistance of my legal advisors, when I would not need any documents at

 6     all.  I'm now deprived of the assistance of my legal advisors, and on top

 7     of that being hampered by the OTP in preparing for trial by using methods

 8     such as the one that I've just specified.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, it seems that as

10     far as tomorrow's witness is concerned VS-1010, that interviews are

11     missing.

12             MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, as was the case with respect to the

13     previously mentioned material.  Our case manager is checking that, and we

14     can certainly be in a position to update the Chamber and Mr. Seselj

15     certainly during the course of this morning.

16             I do want to put on the record, however, while I'm on my feet

17     that the repeated statements by the accused that is his ability to

18     represent himself is hindered, is not in our respectful view a truthful

19     statement.  And, of course, there are motions pending before this Chamber

20     to alleviate this situation.  But it is our view that having had access

21     to his associate Mr. Aleksic that the accused should not be continuing to

22     indicate that his ability to represent himself is hindered.  We do want

23     to put that on the record.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, basically you were

25     saying that it is difficult for you to self-represent yourself, and you

Page 13626

 1     have brought this on to yourself, so the Prosecutor has got up and said

 2     that that is the best evidence, that you should be assigned a counsel.

 3     Let's backtrack a little bit.  A few minutes ago, you said you found it

 4     difficult.  What prevented you from telephoning Mr. Aleksic and telling

 5     him, Well, during the week we have such and such a witness that is going

 6     to come and testify.  Can you do what is asked of you?  In other words,

 7     look up such and such an item.  And then all the people working for you

 8     will get to work and make sure that Mr. Aleksic sends you the answers you

 9     have requested in due time.  And you have said, No, you are not doing

10     this because there is an obstruction to your Defence according to what

11     you are saying.  This is not -- your conversations are not tapped.  You

12     can say to him well, Witness 1010 is coming to testify.  You give this

13     gentleman your instructions, and then he gets to work.  But you are

14     saying I'm not doing this, so the Prosecution gets on his feet and says,

15     Well, make sure that he has a counsel, and then the counsel will do --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I never said I was

17     unable to defend myself.  But rather, that the Prosecution was keeping me

18     from defending myself and deliberately obstructing me and hindering me.

19     I have led evidence to that effect.  I'm able to defend myself even if

20     the OTP never submit another document to me ever again.  Even without a

21     single associate ever in Belgrade.  I'll still be able to defends myself,

22     and I still remain far superior to a ten-man Prosecutor team.  Far

23     superior.  But my Defence will not have the sort of quality that I would

24     find desirable.  What should I do with Boris Aleksic for example?  He is

25     not up to date.  Some days ago his wife gave birth to is a child.  The

Page 13627

 1     only thing I can do is use a landline to call him, which means call him

 2     at his flat.  His wife is still frail.  She has just given birth.  And I

 3     am now call him.  And yet he is helpless without Zoran Krasic.  You, the

 4     Trial Chamber, banned me from forwarding any sort of confidential

 5     information at all to Zoran Krasic.  If I am now banned from forwarding

 6     confidential information directly to Zoran Krasic, what does that mean?

 7     I could do it through Boris Aleksic.  Perhaps I should call him up.  I

 8     should dictate a statement to him, he could tape-record it, and hand it

 9     over to Zoran Krasic.  Would that be fair and in keeping with the rules?

10     If that is a fair course of action, if that is a way for me to circumvent

11     your decision without causing any further consequences, well, perhaps I

12     could that I can at that course.  But Zoran Krasic, he is the only person

13     who is privy to everything.  And he really understands and knows the ins

14     and outs of everything single thing.  He has it all in his computer.  How

15     can I get any serious work done without him?  Come on.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, as far as this

17     particular point is concerned, you are partially right, but I shall ask

18     the Registrar to move into closed session please.

19             Registrar, please.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

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11 Pages 13628-13633 redacted. Private session.















Page 13634

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13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in open session.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a brief objection.  I think

16     that the witness should be asked whether he wishes to continue with

17     protective measures or perhaps he is ready now to testify in public?  I

18     think there's no concern.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness -- let's move back to

20     private session, first.

21             Mr. Registrar, please.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13635

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 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, just for the record, the witness

 9     testimony Milosevic has been admitted in the Krajisnik case under

10     Rule 92(D), just to inform Your Honour and the Judges.

11                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VS-1035

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, could you please let us know where you are from and

15     where you went to school.

16        A.   I'm from the environs in Bijeljina; that's where I was born.  I

17     went to school in my native (redacted).  I then went to

18     secondary school in Bijeljina, and I lived in Bijeljina until the

19     outbreak of the conflict in 1992.

20        Q.   What did you do after you finished your school?

21        A.   After I finished secondary school, I did my military service in

22     Slovenia and having done my military service, I went to Sarajevo to the

23     school for Internal Affairs, and I trained as a policeman, to become a

24     policeman.

25        Q.   When you finished your training, what was your first duty

Page 13636

 1     station?

 2        A.   My first duty station was the police station in Bijeljina.  Yes,

 3     the police station in Bijeljina.

 4        Q.   I now intend to go to the years 1991.  Mr. Witness, can you tell

 5     us if there was a kind of rising tensions between the different

 6     ethnicities in your region?

 7        A.   Well, directly in the area in which I lived somewhat less, but in

 8     the Republic of Croatia and around Bosnia, it was evident that there was

 9     tension between the different groups of different ethnicities.

10        Q.   Do you remember when this was?

11        A.   In 1991, the end of the summer, beginning of autumn.

12        Q.   What were the facts from which you concluded that there was

13     raising tensions?  Could you describe this.

14        A.   At that time I was coming back from my holidays, and I had spent

15     my holiday around Zadar and Split.  And while I was travelling back from

16     Split in the direction of Bihac, I would come across -- I would go across

17     Croatian territory where there had already been the erection of

18     barricades, barricades had already been erected and meetings by the

19     national groups had already been organised, rallies.  And a few days

20     later a conflict broke out in that part of former Yugoslavia.

21        Q.   Do you know who erected these barricades?

22        A.   In the area that I passed through, it was mostly areas inhabited

23     by the Serbs.

24        Q.   Did you realise kind of, let's call it nationalistic rallies.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Mussemeyer, I appreciate your attempts to get

Page 13637

 1     to the point, but please don't try and lead the witness.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  It's not my intention to lead the witness, but

 3     these are points which are not crucial for the accused, and I want to go

 4     quickly through.  So I ask the witness if he can answer my last question.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, if you are

 6     asking -- if you are putting the question to him by saying, Do these

 7     rallies have a nationalist connotation, I believe that you are very

 8     leading there, but move on.

 9             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would like the witness to answer this

10     question.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that area of the Republic of

12     Croatia, these nationalistic meetings or rallies were organised, and I

13     can state now that they were organised by, I think the Serb party or some

14     Serb party in that region inhabited predominantly by a Serb population.

15             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

16        Q.   Have there also been discussions or debates between your police

17     colleagues?

18        A.   Well, after those events there was a division among us too, who

19     was for, who was against, who was right, who was wrong, so you could

20     foresee that it would happen among our ranks very quickly, a division

21     between us colleagues.

22        Q.   Where did these -- or where did you observe or hear these

23     discussions?  Was it in a group?  Or was it in a different place?

24        A.   Well, it began first of all along the channels that we used for

25     communication in the police force.  That is to say, you could hear

Page 13638

 1     discussions between colleagues in the neighbouring republic, the Republic

 2     of Croatia, so that we followed those conversations, and automatically,

 3     where we were, you could notice a division among us because our

 4     colleagues who were Serbs, our Serb colleagues who until recently --

 5     well, the paperers that were published in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bosnian

 6     papers, automatically were being read -- well, they read newspapers from

 7     Belgrade, and they didn't read the Bosnian or Croatia papers.  They

 8     refused to read them, but only read papers from Belgrade.

 9        Q.   Did police officers from Muslim origin also participate in these

10     discussions?  Do you remember this?

11        A.   No, no.  I remember very well, as far as I know from where I

12     worked, we didn't interfere -- well, we didn't interfere, colleagues

13     didn't interfere from other ethnicities except for one outbreak when a

14     channel was opened, one station had their communication channel open, and

15     you could hear two colleagues discussing these matters.  And they were

16     Serbs by ethnicity.

17        Q.   Do you remember a special event when the situation deteriorated

18     tremendously?

19        A.   At that time a conflict broke out, well, there was a clash, not a

20     major one, large scale, but anyway, a clash in the villages between the

21     Bratunac municipality or the surrounding parts of Bratunac.  Well, in

22     actual fact a Muslim man was killed.  He was shot at in a car, and after

23     that incident there was great discord and unrest between the two ethnic

24     group, the Muslims and the Serbs.  They were opposite each other.  So we

25     had to be sent to that region afterwards, we were sent there to separate

Page 13639

 1     the two sides, or the two villages, or actually, it was a number of

 2     villages, but villages with different ethnic groups living in them.

 3        Q.   How would you describe the situation between the different

 4     ethnicities at that time?

 5        A.   Well, at that time in that area, the area to which we were sent,

 6     you had the Serbs and the Muslims, and they lived opposite each other.

 7     For example, they were just divided by the road, and I can say that they

 8     were armed so that every time we were sent there, if we got close to one

 9     side or the other side, we had to change our names.  If you are -- if you

10     were going to Serb village, then you would have a Serb name.  If you went

11     to a Muslim village, you would take on a Muslim name, so that they

12     weren't able to see which ethnicity we belonged to, but this was a little

13     difficult to keep up because we were in between two fires, if I can put

14     it that way.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you are saying something

16     important here.  There's an incident, a Muslim is killed, the police

17     forces and you were part of them, go and try to separate the two sides.

18     But you are adding -- they were armed.  So why is it that at the time the

19     authorities didn't decide to just arrest the perpetrators of this murder

20     and ask everyone to surrender their arms, maybe sending in the army to

21     try to restore law and order?  Why wasn't this done?  When there's a fire

22     being lit, you try to put it out immediately.  You know, if you don't put

23     it out quickly, everything burns.  So why wasn't anything done to restore

24     law and order?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why nothing was done?  Well, I

Page 13640

 1     can't really say now.  First of all, we didn't receive any orders to that

 2     effect to intervene at all in any one of those villages.  And all the

 3     population there was armed.  Now, who they got their weapons from, I

 4     can't say, but there was no order from our superior command telling us to

 5     intervene.  If we were to come across people who were armed that way and

 6     to disarm them, so we had no possibility of doing that.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you remember a conversation you overheard over

 9     the police radio between two Serb police officers?  And what were they

10     telling about?

11        A.   Well, those two colleagues were talking.  Whether intentionally

12     or not, they left the channel open, their communication line was open so

13     that we could hear them, and the entire region used those communication

14     channels.  Anyway, they were discussing the situation in Croatia and what

15     was happening in Croatia to the Serbs and to the Croats, and they said

16     that Croats and Muslims in Bosnia would suffer the same fate, that the

17     same thing would happen there, what happened in Bosnia would happen in

18     Croatia.

19        Q.   Did this conversation have any consequences for the two police

20     officers?

21        A.   As far as I know, it did not.  Although, you could clearly see

22     which wavelengths were used for the conversations, but as far as I know

23     there were no consequences.  They weren't punished because of it, and it

24     was all hushed up just as if nothing had happened.

25        Q.   Did you yourself experience problems at your work for the fact

Page 13641

 1     that you were of Muslim ethnicity?

 2        A.   Well, there were problems, mostly in -- if you were punishing

 3     somebody of a different ethnicity, Serb, for instance.  Or if you had any

 4     contacts, if you happened to stop a person who was in the reserve force

 5     of the army or was a member of the army, well, then, they would abuse

 6     you, tell you you couldn't do anything, you couldn't punish them in any

 7     way, and they said that you were just trying to punish them because they

 8     were Serbs.  So problems of that kind occurred.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, what about your

10     superiors?  Were they of all ethnical background, or were they of a

11     single ethnicity?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From various ethnicities, but

13     mostly the commander would be one ethnicity, the deputy would be another,

14     and so on.  It was always a mixed composition until 1992.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] It's a bit surprising.  In

16     Yugoslavia at that time, it was quite normal for the police to see

17     civilians with weapons?  That was quite normal at the time?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  If we were to undertake

19     anything, if we were to do anything, well, if you happened to come across

20     some weapons in somebody's car or somebody having weapons on them without

21     the documents required, then the weapons that we would seize would be

22     returned to that same person one or two days later because, and I

23     remember this very well, with a colleague of mine -- well, a colleague of

24     mine confiscated a weapon from somebody who was going to Serbia via

25     Croatia and when searching his car, they found a pistol and a hunting

Page 13642

 1     rifle and a knife, and he didn't have permits for those weapons.  But

 2     when we seized those weapons, two days later, all this was returned to

 3     him because they got permits from somewhere.  They came in with a permit

 4     from somewhere.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

 6             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you always work at Bijeljina, or were you also

 8     sent to other locations in Bosnia?

 9        A.   Mostly in Bijeljina, but from time to time when the need arose,

10     they could send us to anywhere in the former Yugoslavia.  So it didn't

11     matter whether you wanted to or not, that was the law governing Internal

12     Affairs.  For example, the federal SUP or the republican SUP could say, I

13     need five men from Bijeljina today to go somewhere else.  So I was sent

14     to Bratunac, for example, and then afterwards to Bosanski Samac.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to come back

16     to these weapons.  Either, you know, inhabitants have their fighting --

17     or their hunting rifle, Okay, this is understandable.  In the countryside

18     people usually have hunting rifles, or on the other hand, they have war

19     weapons.  And if that's the case, how did they get them?  Because you

20     seem to say that some organisations provided them with weapons, Muslims,

21     Serbs, or Croats.  So were there really organisations who provided

22     weapons to all these people?  I mean, you know, an assault rifle is

23     expensive.  If someone has a weapon, either he was given the weapon or he

24     bought this weapon.  Could you tell us what was the case.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it depends on the type of the

Page 13643

 1     weapon.  The weapons that were prohibited were automatic weapons mostly.

 2     You could purchase hunting rifles yourself, but only if you had the

 3     necessary documents when going to buy one, whereas the other kind of

 4     weapons were not accessible to the civilian population, the automatic

 5     weapons and so on.  And I can tell you, as far as I know, that the

 6     population, the Serb population, would receive weapons from the JNA.

 7     Whether it was directly from the JNA or the Territorial Defence, the TO,

 8     whereas the Muslim population, well, allegedly, I heard that they

 9     purchased the weapons.  Now, where they bought them from, I really don't

10     know.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you remember if you have been sent to another

13     location by the end of February or beginning of March 1992, and if so,

14     where?

15        A.   To Bosanski Samac, to secure the bridge in Bosanski Samac in

16     actual fact.

17        Q.   Can you tell us how was the relationship between Serbs, Croats,

18     and Muslims there, at Bosanski Samac?

19        A.   Well, I can tell you that all these groups were already divided,

20     each group for themselves, and then passing through the villages in that

21     area, inhabited by different ethnicities, each village would have a

22     check-point set up by the locals of the village.  So we had to pass

23     through these checkpoints that were manned by the locals.  It wasn't the

24     soldiers, they were the locals, but they were armed.

25        Q.   Was it possible for you to go into a Serb village?

Page 13644

 1        A.   No, no, not into the villages, but to pass by the villages, I was

 2     allowed to do that.  I could do that.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Starting from this, it seems

 4     that there's no more law and order, it's anarchy.  If police is no longer

 5     allowed to enter into a Serb village, there must be a real problem then.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.  At the time if somebody

 7     had a rifle in their hands, they had greater power than the police.  And

 8     to stand up to someone like that, you just cause greater conflicts.  So

 9     we didn't dare react to things like that at all.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

12        Q.   Can you please tell us what kind of caps your police officers

13     were wearing?

14        A.   In Bosanski Samac, we were there, well, to prevent any more

15     conflicts.  And mostly we had ordinarily caps, knitted caps, just to keep

16     you from the cold.  Whereas our Serb colleagues refused to wear caps like

17     that, and they wore the Tito-type of cap with the five-pointed star.  The

18     normal police caps that were standard issue at that time.

19        Q.   What emblem did you have on your cap?

20        A.   [No interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you know why the Serb officers were wearing the cap with the

22     five-pointed star?

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Excuse me, Mr. Mussemeyer.  The witness's answer

24     to your question of which emblem they wore on their cap was not recorded.

25     Could you put the question to him again, the answer well recorded.  Thank

Page 13645

 1     you.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, which kind -- do you know why the Serb colleagues

 4     were wearing the cap with the five-pointed star?

 5        A.   Well, mostly to provoke the Croatian side.  The colleagues from

 6     the Republic of Croatia who were stationed halfway up the bridge.  Well,

 7     we were at the one end of the bridge, and they were halfway across the

 8     bridge in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 9             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, I would like to go now to the

10     events in Bijeljina.  I think it's a good.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Sorry.  I still did not understand which emblems

12     they wore themselves.

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

14        Q.   I understood that they didn't wear any emblem, but it's up to the

15     witness to explain us again of what kind of emblems did you have on your

16     caps?

17             THE WITNESS:  None.

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I think it would be a good time for a break.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have a 20-minute break.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.25 a.m.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

23     I would like to welcome Mrs. Dahl who has just joined us.  I shall give

24     the floor back to Mr. Mussemeyer, now.

25             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

Page 13646

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, before the break we were talking about Bosanski

 2     Samac, that you had been ordered to go there.  Now, I would like to come

 3     to the events in Bijeljina.  Can you tell us, how did you become aware of

 4     problems in Bijeljina?

 5        A.   While I was at work, while I was doing my job in Bosanski Samac,

 6     I saw that some conflict had broken out in Bijeljina on television, and

 7     that evening the commander, the chief of the police station in Bijeljina,

 8     called us and said that my colleague and I should return to Bijeljina.

 9        Q.   Did you do this and did you find any problems while returning to

10     Bijeljina?

11        A.   The next day there was a car that was placed at our disposal, and

12     a colleague who worked there was supposed to transport us in the car, and

13     when we returned to Bijeljina -- well, from Brcko to Bijeljina, on that

14     stretch of the road, we came across a number of barricades that had been

15     erected along the road and we were stopped and checked each time.

16        Q.   Who had erected these barricades, and who stopped you?

17        A.   The population of those villages, the Serbs.

18        Q.   Do you remember how many barricades you had to go through?

19        A.   I think about 17 barricades up to the entrance to Bijeljina

20     itself.

21        Q.   And you finally arrived to Bijeljina, did you find any problems

22     at the outskirts of Bijeljina or could you directly go into Bijeljina?

23        A.   At the last barricade at the entrance to Bijeljina, or just

24     before you enter Bijeljina, we were stopped by a number of people at the

25     barricade, and they checked us, and after that a car had to come from our

Page 13647

 1     own police station to drive us to the police station itself escorted by

 2     them.  They wouldn't let us go on our own.

 3        Q.   Who were they?  Were they soldiers, and if so, from which unit?

 4        A.   The regular -- no, no, they weren't regular soldiers.  They were

 5     the reservists of the JNA.  And the civilian population which lived

 6     there.

 7        Q.   Do you remember what one of these reservists asked your Serb

 8     colleague who was driving you?

 9        A.   He asked me why he was driving me, and after that they had to

10     send a car for us from the station to escort me, not him, for security

11     reasons.  And all he said was that we had been given instructions from

12     the commander that we should be in -- well, we were in Samac and our

13     commander, the chief of police, told us to go back to the station

14     urgently.

15        Q.   What do you think why he was asking this, your Serb colleague?

16        A.   Because he knew that I was a Muslim.

17        Q.   When you entered the town, what did you see and realise?

18        A.   When I entered the town, I noticed that there was a large number

19     of soldiers in the town already of para-military units wearing all sorts

20     of different uniforms.  And one could notice that there had been clashes.

21     It wasn't before later on that I realised what exactly had occurred, once

22     I had reached the station already.

23        Q.   Did you realise kind of obstacles on the streets in Bijeljina,

24     and if so, please describe it to us?

25        A.   In several places that I passed there were barricades, obstacles,

Page 13648

 1     cars and trucks parked across the road.  I don't know who put them there,

 2     though.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Mussemeyer, could you just clear with the

 4     witness exactly when it was he entered the town.

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I wanted to clarify it, but I can do it now.

 6        Q.   Do you remember the approximate date when you were going back to

 7     Bijeljina and entered the town?

 8        A.   The day after the clashes broke out, on or about the 1st of

 9     April.  That's when I arrived.  1992.

10        Q.   When you returned to the police station, did you have to sign

11     some documents expressing your loyalty?

12        A.   Yes.  We were made to sign -- I don't know exactly, but a

13     document of loyalty to the Serbian SUP, S-U-P .  I think it was called --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, while the witness is

15     thinking about what exactly it was that he signed, I believe there's a

16     need for the Trial Chamber to intervene regarding the leading questions

17     by Mr. Mussemeyer.  There was no there is no oath, that is obvious if we

18     look at any of the witness's statements.  He signed an agreement to the

19     effect that he would be serving with the police of Republika Srpska.

20     Mr. Mussemeyer is deliberately driving the witness to say that this was

21     an oath.  Notwithstanding the fact that the witness himself is setting

22     the record straight.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, I believe it's

24     on page 43, lines 7 and 8 where you say, you mention loyalty.  I don't

25     see to what extent this could be leading.

Page 13649

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I don't understand this.  I was not talking

 2     about an oath.  I was explicitly using the word "signing" the document of

 3     loyalty and was not talking about oath.  So I don't understand where this

 4     should lead or be leading.

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you --

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that was the

 7     interpretation both the witness and I got, an oath, and then the witness

 8     set the Prosecutor straight by saying this was no oath.  So we might be

 9     talking at cross purposes, talking to Mr. Mussemeyer and the interpreter

10     at the same time.  Perhaps the Trial Chamber should say who exactly we

11     should be listening to, the interpreter or Mr. Mussemeyer.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor put a question

13     on a document about loyalty.  He didn't mention an oath, and it is the

14     accused who mentions an oath.  This is how I see things.

15             Irrespective of this, Witness, Mr. Seselj has just said something

16     which you need to clarify.  Mr. Seselj has said that you signed an

17     agreement with the police of the Republika Srpska.  What does this mean

18     exactly?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true.  This was an agreement

20     that I signed about loyalty to the SUP, S-U-P, of Republika Srpska.  I

21     think it was called the Centre of the SAO Semberija, Majevica Services, I

22     think that's what it was called, but it was about signing one's loyalty

23     to, for example, the SUP of Republika Srpska because it wasn't Republika

24     Srpska at the time, it was the Serbian MUP, M-U-P, at the time.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  But you were a

Page 13650

 1     civil servant in the police of what country?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The republican SUP of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina, but at the moment the republican SUP no longer got

 4     any respect among the Serbs, and there were no communications between the

 5     republican SUP and, for example, the Bijeljina station.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment I would like the

 7     interpreters to be extremely careful.  There is a mistake here.  The

 8     witness said I was working for the SUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on page

 9     44, line 24, it is said the SUP of the Republika Srpska.  That's not what

10     he said.  So please repeat.

11             I'm asking you this question, at that time you were a civil

12     servant working for the police.  For which country were you working.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Republican SUP of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina up until that point in time.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, we have it, I must just

16     check that it is properly recorded on the transcript.  And now you are

17     being asked to sign an agreement with the SUP of the Republika Srpska.

18     What did this mean?  That Bosnia-Herzegovina did no longer exist, that

19     there was a new republic, what did all of this mean exactly?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This means that at the time there

21     was a division within the republican SUP or in the whole of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The ethnic Serbs seceded from the others.  We were

23     not the first police station to do this, there had been other divisions

24     before.  A Serbian SUP or something like that was set up, or a SUP of

25     Republika Srpska, but I don't think it was Republika Srpska.  Therefore

Page 13651

 1     at the time we had the centre of security services, SAO Semberija, and

 2     Majevica and we signed our loyalty to that centre, because in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina all the SUPs were subject to security centres.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think we need to go more

 5     slowly.  This legal concept can be very important and have consequences.

 6     First of all, you talked about the SUP of the Republika Srpska.  Now you

 7     are saying something different.  You are saying that you were part of the

 8     SUP of the SAO and then you said something else, so please clarify this

 9     again.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked at the Bijeljina public

11     security station, used to.  Then it was the security services centre

12     Tuzla that was in charge of us.  And then when the clashes broke out in

13     1992 and whatever happened in Bijeljina, the Bijeljina security station

14     seceded and a new security services centre was established.  SAO

15     Semberija, and Majevica.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all the other

17     microphones be switched off while the witness is speaking, please,

18     because the interpreters can't hear the witness.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, were there

20     Muslim police stations that were staffed by Muslims and were there police

21     stations that were staffed by Croatians?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in my area.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] An objection, just to make this

24     easier.  The witness is talking about what he was supposed to do

25     following the clashes in Bijeljina once the Muslim forces had been

Page 13652

 1     defeated and had already withdrawn from Bijeljina.  Therefore, Bijeljina

 2     now remains in the hands of the Serb forces.  And then he signs his

 3     loyalty in order to keep working with the police.

 4             It's not very likely that was SAO Semberija, and Majevica,

 5     because Republika Srpska already existed.  SAO Semberija, and Majevica

 6     had been set up the previous year, 1991.  In April 1992 Republika Srpska

 7     very much existed already.  Therefore it's much likelier that he signed

 8     his loyalty in order to keep on working with the police of Republika

 9     Srpska.  However, the Prosecutor would have encountered no problems in

10     making sure the document was available for us and this is no secret at

11     all.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you agree with the

13     fact that you signed a document in order to work for the SAO?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And Mr. Seselj adds that this

16     SAO existed prior to that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't agree.  All right.

19     Not officially.  But did it exist de facto?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that I knew of.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It was important to

22     clarify this.

23             Mr. Mussemeyer, you have the floor.

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

25        Q.   Mr. Witness, what was your task when you were back to the police

Page 13653

 1     station?  Did you get a specific task?

 2        A.   Yes, the first day we got an order, all of us, to not leave the

 3     station.  It wasn't before day two, I think, that I got an order from my

 4     boss that I should go into town.

 5        Q.   What were you expected to do there?

 6        A.   I and my colleague who came with me were expected to escort or

 7     secure persons who were picking up the bodies of dead civilians and

 8     soldiers.  Those who were killed on the streets of Bijeljina.

 9        Q.   What was your task during this, let's call it exercise?

10        A.   Securing the two persons who drove the two hearses and also

11     remaining in touch with the station because we were receiving from the

12     duty officer at the station all the locations that we were to go to.

13        Q.   Did you perform this work without being harassed?

14        A.   No, not quite that simple.  There were many soldiers and

15     paramilitaries, to put it that way, around town.  People who stopped us,

16     checked us, let us go.  There were some disarming going on later on.  All

17     sorts of things happening over the two days that I spent there.

18        Q.   Do you know to which units these paramilitaries belonged to?

19        A.   Oh, well, Arkan's army, for example, the JNA reservists, and some

20     people organised by Mirko Blagojevic, volunteers.  A mixed bag.

21        Q.   What did these paramilitaries tell you what was going on in

22     Bijeljina?

23        A.   They were saying that these people had been killed as a result of

24     war, although there had been no war at all.

25        Q.   Did you -- please explain us why there was no war, according to

Page 13654

 1     you.

 2        A.   Well, the word "war" implies large scale clashes.  The use of all

 3     sorts of weaponry such as shelling, bombing, and so on and so forth.  As

 4     far as I could notice, small arms and light weapons were used for the

 5     killing of those people.  Automatic rifles at best, I think.  Sometimes

 6     the occasional Zolja, and there was no major damage resulting from those

 7     clashes.

 8        Q.   Do you remember how many bodies you helped collecting in these

 9     days?

10        A.   As far as I remember, there were about 48 bodies that I collected.

11     I can also say that there were a lot more, but there were some bodies

12     that I was supposed to collect, that had been collected by their families

13     before I got there and were buried secretly in the cemetery.

14             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you Mr. Witness.

15             Mr. Registrar, I would like to have the document under 65 ter

16     2702 on the monitor, please.  And this is under seal.  Maybe we should go

17     into private session.

18             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, I have a question

19     first for the witness.  Witness, would you also say that there was no

20     civil war underway?  No internal conflict at the time?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say it was war.  Clashes

22     between ethnicities, for example, the Muslims and the Serbs who were in

23     town, yes, there were clashes.  That much was obvious.  But as for the

24     use of some weapons such as shelling and that sort of thing, not exactly

25     on a large scale.  This was mere the exchange of rifle fire going on for

Page 13655

 1     a day or two, and then it was all done.

 2             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we move to

 4     private session, please, because we have to display a document under

 5     seal.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13656











11 Pages 13656-13677 redacted. Private session.















Page 13678

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in open session.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you know some of the victims?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us which ethnicity they had?

 7        A.   The ones I knew were Muslims, but there were other ethnicities

 8     among the victims.

 9        Q.   Do you remember that you accompanied a person on the second day

10     of your collection?  Can you tell us who it was.

11        A.   Yes, I was dispatched to escort an inspector from the federal

12     SUP, from Belgrade, who had arrived from Belgrade.  We were to welcome

13     him on the way out of Bijeljina in the direction of Bosanska Raca.

14        Q.   Could you go with him through the city without any problems, or

15     have there been problems?

16        A.   When we returned after we met him, we were stopped near the

17     barracks or near the Belimi cafe, I think that was what it was called, by

18     the paramilitaries, I can't call them anything else because I don't know

19     which unit they belonged to.  Both I and my colleague were disarmed as

20     well as the inspector who was driving a different car right behind us.

21        Q.   Have you been disarmed?  Yes, you told us, sorry.

22             Did you get your arms back later on?

23        A.   Mr. Goran Jelisic was adamant that I should be given back my

24     weapon, and I was.  The inspector and I were returned our weapons, but my

25     colleague was not.

Page 13679

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said that these

 2     were para-military units.  How are you able to establish a distinction

 3     between JNA special units, for instance, and paramilitaries?  What leads

 4     you to say that this is the official army and these are paramilitaries?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regular military units, there were

 6     none in the town.  The reservists and in Yugoslavia, as it's well known,

 7     everybody had a reserve military uniform.  So many people were actually

 8     wearing those, reserve uniforms.  50/50.  Part uniform, part plain

 9     clothes, normally.  But then, for example, Arkan's unit, they were

10     wearing full combat gear with uniform, and they looked very much like an

11     organised unit, while the others were loose cannons.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like additional detail.

13     When you are saying reserve military units, for you, are they legal

14     units?  Do these people belong to an army or not?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For me, they were paramilitaries

16     because they had not been mobilised by the military leadership which

17     means that they had been mobilised by the Serbian Democratic Party and

18     some other organisation like that, but not by the military, the army's

19     leadership.  They were not mobilised by the army's leadership.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said that Arkan's

22     units had uniforms.  Could you tell us which uniforms they were wearing?

23     JNA uniforms or others?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, yes, JNA or not JNA.

25     Camouflage uniforms, full kits.  You could buy a JNA uniform if you

Page 13680

 1     wanted to.  It was available, but the boots, the trousers, the jacket,

 2     and a full combat kit.  Normally what a JNA soldier would have had in

 3     those conditions, not including the military cap.  These people were

 4     wearing knitted caps.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, Mr. Mussemeyer,

 6     without giving you instructions or anything, we might have a photograph

 7     that could illustrate what the witness just said.  Photograph 1037.  You

 8     could ask for it to be displayed, and that way the witness could confirm

 9     what he said in his answer to Judge Lattanzi.

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Okay.  I agree.  I had foreseen this photograph

11     for some seconds later, but we can show it now.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13             Mr. Registrar, could we please have item 1037 displayed.

14             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  We have already seen this photo with another

15     witness, and it has got the Exhibit number P684.

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, what kind of soldiers can we see here?  To which

17     unit do they belong?

18        A.   These are members of Arkan's unit, and as we can see, they are in

19     full combat kit.

20        Q.   Can you say as where, in which location in Bijeljina was this

21     photo taken or where the victims are shown?  Where is the location?  Do

22     you know this?

23        A.   The location is near the hospital, near Redzep's house.  The

24     person lying on the ground is Redzep, his wife, and a third person that I

25     can't identify.

Page 13681

 1        Q.   Do you know if also Redzep's child was killed?

 2        A.   Yes.  The child is across the way behind this first soldier's

 3     back, in the front yard of the mosque.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Redzep's wife,

 5     could you tell us which lady it is on this photograph?  Is it the body

 6     that is in the middle, or is it the body that's to the very right of the

 7     picture?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know.  Very well.

10     But you are telling us that Arkan's men were dressed in such a uniform,

11     is that it?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Beanie cap, glasses, rangers on

14     their foot, camouflage unit.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is something like it,

16     but for the most part, they were in full combat kit.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The one who is with his foot

18     raised, I see that on his back, slung across his back he has got

19     something, seems to be a rocket-launcher.  What do you think of it?  Did

20     they have rocket-launchers?

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, that is a Zolja, a small calibre

22     rocket-launcher.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

25        Q.   Did you help collecting these bodies?

Page 13682

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Were these all the bodies you collected from that spot, or did

 3     you have to collect others?

 4        A.   No, behind this gate in front of Redzep's house, there are

 5     another four bodies, and then yet another four in the basement of

 6     Redzep's house.

 7        Q.   Did you initially find these bodies in the basement, or did you

 8     have to be called back?

 9        A.   No.  First I picked up the four bodies that were out in the

10     street, and then I went to get the four bodies that were in the yard.  I

11     was afraid that the house itself, Redzep's house, or the basement might

12     be booby-trapped, therefore, I didn't dare to actually go in and check.

13     But later Mr. Redzep's relative, the Redzep who had been killed, reported

14     that there were another four dead bodies in the basement of that house,

15     so we went and got them.

16        Q.   Did you know one of these victims?

17        A.   A single one whose body was in the basement.  Coso Nargalic, his

18     body was in the basement.

19        Q.   Are you sure that it was him?  Do you recognise him?

20        A.   It was difficult to recognise the other bodies there.  The body

21     was -- the head was defaced from the blows.  It was disfigured, it was

22     very difficult to make a positive ID.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you collected the bodies

24     of these victims.  On this photograph here, these civilians obviously had

25     no weapon.  I would like to know whether all the bodies that you

Page 13683

 1     collected were bodies of people with weapons or without weapons?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed.  None of the persons whose

 3     bodies I collected were armed or had any military kit on them at all.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is a small mystery which

 5     I tried to raise, to unveil with another witness, but he was not able to

 6     answer.  Maybe you won't be able to answer either.  This is a photograph,

 7     it was taken by someone just when this soldier is about to -- obviously

 8     to kick the victim.  Who took this picture?  Is it one of Arkan's men, or

 9     is it freelance photograph that would be on the site at the time?  Do you

10     have any idea who took this picture?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was a journalist.  This

12     photograph was taken from the direction of the hospital, and the person

13     taking the photograph was probably concealed.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you collected these

15     bodies, was somebody filming what you were doing?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  In this very spot shown in

17     this photograph, I, as a matter of fact, tried to use my own camera, the

18     one that I had in my car, but it was seized, and I was banned from taking

19     any photographs or, indeed, checking the dead bodies.  Their identities,

20     I mean.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who took away your camera?  You

22     see, as we put the questions the witness, we learn a lot of things.  Who

23     actually took the camera away from you?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's say it was Arkan's men.

25     Members of Arkan's unit.  They were wearing the same sort of -- the

Page 13684

 1     outfit as the rest of them.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, there was the police,

 4     but with the police, were there other people collecting these bodies

 5     alongside the police?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure what exactly you mean,

 7     but with me there were another two persons from the public utilities

 8     company.  They were seconded by the company to help collect the bodies.

 9     I didn't, myself, collect the bodies.  I provided security for those two

10     people from the public securities party who actually did.  And they were

11     in charge of transporting these dead bodies.

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This is exactly what

13     I wanted to know.  Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, it's 12.00.  I

16     believe it would be time for the break.  We will finish at 1.15 today, so

17     let's have a 15-minute break.  And when we resume, it would be nice if

18     the Registrar can tell me how much time you've already spent.

19     Fifteen-minute break.

20                           --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Court is back in session.

23             Mr. Prosecutor, you have the floor.

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

25        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you remember having collected also the corpse of

Page 13685

 1     of a father and two sons?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.  About 300 metres away from the hospital towards

 3     Janja.

 4        Q.   Do you know who killed these victims?

 5        A.   As far as I know when I arrived later, I learned that those three

 6     people were killed by Brano Sumar.

 7        Q.   Who was Brano Sumar, to which unit did he belong to?

 8        A.   Brano Sumar, as far as I know, belonged to the Mirko Blagojevic

 9     unit.

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, I would like to show a document.

11     It's a document under seal, and we have to go into private session.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we move to

13     private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13686











11 Pages 13686-13691 redacted. Private session.















Page 13692

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

16             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would like to show a short video-clip now

17     which has the 65 ter number 6010, and it deals with clip E.  For your

18     information, this clip has already been shown at our first video day.

19     You will certainly remember the 20th of March, 2008, but it was -- for an

20     error of the Prosecution, it did not get a P number.  It was not

21     admitted.  We thought that this video-clip was already admitted with the

22     Milosevic testimony of Mr. Seselj and had the P number 56, but clip A got

23     the number P56.  And now I want to see again clip E.  It's a very short

24     video, and I ask to get it admitted into evidence.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 13693

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you recognise Mirko Blagojevic on this

 3     video-clip?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, I ask to get this video-clip

 6     admitted into evidence.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  Before we rule on

 8     this, sir, did you hear like I did -- this was shown very quickly.  I

 9     believe he said, "I'm the President of -- I'm the regional President of

10     the Serbian Radical Party."  Did you hear this?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the person saying that was

13     Blagojevic, Mirko Blagojevic?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What we see -- at some point we

16     see a building which is marked "Gogo".  Is this in Bijeljina?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from the first sketch where I

18     marked the cafe bar Istanbul and the cafe bar Serbia.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think we see two sets on this

20     video-clip.  We hear the fighting; we hear the shooting.  And this is

21     shot live, so to speak.  And then we have the interview of Blagojevic; is

22     that right?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can hear the shots, the

25     bursts of fire, but we have the feeling that no one is firing back.  Is

Page 13694

 1     that what you heard also?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  On a number of occasions

 3     there was shooting without any reason hitting shops, houses, just like

 4     that.  Nobody was in any of those buildings.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, could we see

 6     the video-clip again and stop when Blagojevic is speaking so that we can

 7     see the insignia he is wearing and what he is wearing because it moves on

 8     so quickly.

 9             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Certainly, Your Honour.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he says, I'm the President

12     of the regional -- of the Serbian Radical Party -- "I'm the regional

13     President of the Serbian Radical Party."  So you saw him on the picture.

14     When you saw him, was he dressed like that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he wasn't dressed like that.  I

16     didn't see him looking like that.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, he wasn't dressed like

18     that, oh.  What was different?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear the interpretation.

20     Could you say it again.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat my question.

22     What was different?  What is different between what we see and between

23     what you saw at the time?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this:  Normally, he

25     didn't have a uniform, but here we have to see -- well, that the members

Page 13695

 1     of the unit led my Mirko Blagojevic, that they all had these cockades on

 2     their heads, whereas the rest didn't have those, for example, the

 3     reservists, the JNA reservists, or Arkan's unit, they didn't have

 4     cockades.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give this an exhibit

 6     number.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecutor is

 8     repeating the same mistake that he made in March last year.  He is not

 9     telling us the date when this was filmed because the fighting in

10     Bijeljina lasted four days.  In the document attached to this file, it

11     says that it's a statement by Vojvoda Blagojevic in Bijeljina March 1992.

12     There was no fighting in March.  The fighting began on the 31st of March

13     and went on for at least the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of April.  So we need

14     dates and possibly who filmed this so that we know what day this was

15     filmed on.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, where do these

17     pictures come from?  What is the date of them?

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The exact dates, I cannot tell you.  I don't

19     know.  I can tell you how the Prosecution received this video-clip.  I

20     already mentioned it in March.  We received it from Sonja Biserko, and

21     the date was the 6th of November, 2002, that she gave it to the

22     Prosecution.  More, I can't tell you.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, we have the video-clip, we

24     need an Exhibit number.

25             Mr. Registrar please.

Page 13696

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P737.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honour, I was informed, if you see at this

 3     still at the left-hand corner at the top, there is the Logo of a Serbian

 4     television.  From Belgrade.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this is a question of

 6     a technical nature.  When Blagojevic says we are controlling all the

 7     exits and entrances to the town, we have the feeling that he is the big

 8     boss.  He is in charge of everything.  He gives an interview to

 9     television.  Was that the case or not?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That he was keeping everything

11     under control, I don't believe that.  The Crisis Staff was in charge of

12     that, after all.  They were holding all the access roads into the town.

13     Well, that was the case even before the clashes broke out.  I can only

14     say that the clashes went on for about two days, meaning between the 31st

15     and the 1st.  On the 1st and perhaps early on the 2nd of April.  After

16     that there were no clashes.  No shooting.  Shooting into the air.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, if you say that the

18     clashes lasted two days, this means that the Muslim forces fought?  There

19     was fighting in that case?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Was there fighting?  There was

21     probably someone, but it wasn't to the same extent.  For example, there

22     was no unit that was holding the entire centre of town because there was

23     no such thing.  So there were no major clashes.  Individual, sporadic

24     clashes, two or three men involved who were armed and then they fired at

25     a member of this unit, that unit, Arkan's unit, but not to any major

Page 13697

 1     extent.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Muslims that were shooting

 3     at Arkan's men, were these Muslims placed under anybody's command, or

 4     were they just doing what they felt like doing?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there was no command.  For

 6     example, some neighbourhoods organised themselves, and that's how

 7     resistance was put up.  Based on that.  I'm not aware of there being any

 8     direct command.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about you, yourself?

10     Maybe this question would have been put during cross-examination.  You

11     were a Muslim policeman.  Normally speaking, your side would have been

12     the Muslim side.  Why didn't you shoot at Arkan's men and the other men?

13     Or did you shoot and you are not talking about it?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  I wasn't shooting myself.

15     If I had been shooting, I would have been killed, that much is certain.

16     I said already and I'll say it again, I was at the police station, and

17     the entire station was not involved in the clashes that were going on in

18     the town.  I simply had no opportunity to clash with those persons at

19     all.  But I know that on day three, I went into town myself.  I was

20     walking around.  There was no shooting, no actions, or anything like

21     that.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one question mark.

23     Arkan's men saw you, and they didn't kill you?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  But when I was walking around

25     town, they couldn't know who I was and what I was doing, especially

Page 13698

 1     Arkan's men, since at the time I was wearing a beret with a Serb

 2     three-coloured flag which led them to believe that I, too, was Serb.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  This

 4     was important.

 5             Mr. Mussemeyer.

 6             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, was it possible for the civilian inhabitants of

 8     Bijeljina to leave the town whenever they wanted after April 1991, or did

 9     they need specific permission?

10        A.   Anyone leaving the town, especially for Serbia needed a permit

11     from the Crisis Staff or from what was then the TO staff.  The

12     recruitment office.

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, I would like to show such a -- it

14     is called freedom of movement pass, but we have to go into private

15     session because it's a document under seal.

16             Mr. Registrar, I would like to see --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13699











11 Pages 13699-13701 redacted. Private session.















Page 13702

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know -- or what do you know about the

13     destroyed mosque in Bijeljina?  Can you confirm that some of them have

14     been destroyed?

15        A.   Yes, mosques were destroyed.  I think long after the clashes had

16     broken out.  They were destroyed in areas where there were no combat

17     operations at all.  Bijeljina and the entire region, and I'm referring to

18     Muslim settlements.

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, could we please have the document

20     under number 880 on the 65 ter list shown on the monitor.

21        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, I would like to ask you if you know -- can tell

22     us which mosque it is?  Do you know this place?  And can you please let

23     us know which mosque it was.

24        A.   Yes.  This is near Bijeljina, not -- an area that was not

25     affected by any war operations at all.  Booby-trapped.

Page 13703

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, I would like to move this document

 2     into evidence.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again, when?

 5             Mr. President, yes, booby-trapped, yes, destroyed, but when?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you give us a

 7     date?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't give you a specific date,

 9     but it was destroyed in 1992.  And this place is about 15 kilometres from

10     the frontline where there was fighting.  This is a Muslim village which

11     was later settled by Serbs, therefore, there were no operations anywhere

12     nearby.  It was booby-trapped.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If it was destroyed, could you

14     tell us after which month it was destroyed?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could only have been autumn

16     1992.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the fall of 1992.  Very

18     well.  Let's give it a number.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, was there fighting

20     around Bijeljina after the spring also?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No fighting around Bijeljina.  All

22     of the places around Bijeljina are predominantly Serb, settled, but there

23     was only Janja in the direction of Zvornik.  No clashes there at all.

24     Villages towards Stajocuk, Janja, Bijeljina, Trnovo, likewise no clashes.

25     In July all of the Muslims left those villages.  They moved out.

Page 13704

 1     Although they had previously signed the statement of loyalty to SAO

 2     Semberija, and Majevica.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, can we have a

 5     number, please.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit P739.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, I would like to have the next

 8     photo on the monitors.  It appears the 65 ter number 2763.

 9        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, when we can see it, please let us know which

10     mosque it was.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Janja.

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, is there a second page that we

13     can see?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  There's only one page, but two photographs.

15             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Then, please, can you show us the next photo

16     which bears the 65 ter number 2763.  It's the same, I guess.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  The photo currently broadcast is 2763.

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, what do you see on the first picture at the top?

20     This was the mosque you already described.  And is it the same location

21     which shown on the second picture at the bottom, and what does it show?

22        A.   This is the mosque in the centre of Janja.  The original

23     condition.  The upper photograph.  And the lower photograph the ones that

24     have been blown up by mines.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these are two

Page 13705

 1     different mosques, both are in Janja, but they are not one in the same

 2     mosque, and I think the Prosecutor should prepare a little better.  In

 3     the first photograph the mosque that the witness is talking about without

 4     telling us when it's destroyed.  The other photograph shows a different

 5     mosque.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's put an end to this.  So,

 7     Witness, please, when was the -- when was this destroyed with plastic

 8     explosives?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This momentarily the same, they

10     were all blown up at one period of time, but I can't be specific about

11     the date because I wasn't there when they were destroyed.  But I could

12     see from a certain spot exactly when they vanished, but not the exact

13     date, let's say, at the same time all the mosques in that region were

14     destroyed.  Late in 1992.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the end of 1992.  Very well.

16     I think we've been through this with the expert who came to testify on

17     mosques.  I wonder whether a decision has been actually handed regarding

18     the admission of these pictures.  But let's give it a number, please.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit P740.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Mussemeyer, we

21     have to put an end to this.  We have to stop now because we have -- I

22     have another hearing starting soon.  I would like the Registrar to please

23     tell me the time he spent already.  You haven't used up a lot of time.

24     You still have 30 minutes.  But we'll have to move faster because

25     tomorrow there's another witness scheduled.  If we have constant

Page 13706

 1     objections, Mr. Seselj, we won't be able to hear the next witness.

 2             Ms. Dahl, what do you have to say?

 3             MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I wanted to put on the record that we

 4     located the missing closed session transcripts with regard to the

 5     witness.  We had them transcribed into the Serbian language, and I've

 6     given copies to the Registrar to disclose to Mr. Seselj.  We apologise

 7     for the oversight.  Approximately 20 pages of material.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you've given them to

 9     Mr. Seselj.

10             Witness, you are now in the hands of justice, a witness of

11     justice.  You are not supposed to contact anyone except, of course,

12     members of your family.  You can just tell them that everything is going

13     well.  We will meet tomorrow at 8.30 in the morning.  And I would like

14     everyone tomorrow to be extremely concise and brief and fast because we

15     have another witness scheduled, and if we don't finish with this one, the

16     other witness will have to stay until next week.  Have a pleasant

17     afternoon.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.13 p.m.

19                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of

20                           January 2009, at 8.30 a.m.