Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14522

 1                           Tuesday, 16 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 8.32 a.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you call the

 6     case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  [Previous translation continues] ... 67-T, the

 8     Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, registrar.  Today is

10     Tuesday, the 16th of June, 2009, and I would like to greet Mr. Seselj.  I

11     would like to also greet all the members of the OTP that are in this

12     courtroom.  I would also like to greet all those people helping us within

13     this courtroom.

14             First of all, I have a short oral decision to read out.  I will

15     read it out slowly, and I believe that interpreters got a copy.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  It's actually not the case, the interpreters

17     didn't get a copy.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is a decision on the

19     admission of P688 MFI.

20             Considering P688, namely the preliminary declaration of Jovan

21     Glamocanin to the accusation dated 26th, 27th, 28th, and 30th of May,

22     2003, marked for identification purposes 11th of December, 2008, when

23     this witness was called before the courtroom for Jovan Glamocanin, see

24     hearing of the 11th of December, 2008, transcript 12931.  This Chamber

25     considers that it is necessary for this exhibit to be tendered into the

Page 14523

 1     file for two reasons.

 2             Firstly, it was used widely as a support for the questions by the

 3     Chamber and by the parties.  It is therefore an integral part with the

 4     testimony of this witness, dated 10th and 11th of December, 2008, and

 5     secondly, this statement will assist the Chamber in assessing the

 6     credibility of Jovan Glamocanin.

 7             The Trial Chamber would also like to point out the fundamental

 8     distinction between the admissibility of documentary evidence and the

 9     weight that will be attributed in the light of the entirety of the file.

10     Indeed, at this stage in the proceedings the Chamber has not carried out

11     a final assessment of the relevance or of the reliability or of the

12     probing value of this evidence.  This will only be carried out at the end

13     of the trial in the light of all evidences that will have been tendered

14     into the file.

15             Very well.  All this was to say that this -- the statement of

16     this witness will be tendered into the file.

17             Mr. Registrar, I would like to move to private session, please.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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11 Pages 14524-14535 redacted. Private session.















Page 14536

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14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj, let's

17     take advantage the time that we have this morning to deal with

18     administrative matters or housekeeping matters since we haven't seen each

19     other in quite some time now.  There were no hearings in the meantime

20     since your last hearing.  I also know that you were quite busy with the

21     other trial, contempt trial, and it is now time to raise matters if you

22     have any matters to raise.  So you have the floor.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have four matters

24     to raise.  The first one is the question of viewing the videotapes

25     pursuant to your decision of a few weeks ago.  You made the decision that

Page 14537

 1     my associates can view the videotapes in the detention unit premises.

 2             As things stand now, because you have left me without Zoran

 3     Krasic and Slavko Jerkovic, they could be done by the case manager Marina

 4     Raguz and my new legal advisor, Boris Aleksic.

 5             Six thousand six hundred hours of videotapes.  If each day a

 6     person works for eight hours, this can be viewed in 800 days.  If this is

 7     done by two persons on two separate computers, then they would require

 8     400 days.  I think that simply it is not possible to view all this

 9     material in this way.

10             Secondly, I don't know if you're aware at all, but from October

11     the secretariat has not been reimbursing the travel of my sole remaining

12     legal advisor and case manager, so they come less frequently now.  Marina

13     Raguz and Boris Aleksic are coming to see me on Friday.  I am paying for

14     their trips myself.  When I was paying that myself, they used to come

15     once -- when they were paid by the Registry, they would come once a

16     month.  Now that I'm covering their travel expenses they cannot afford to

17     come more frequently than every several months.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second, please.  With

19     regard to the travels of Mr. Aleksic and Mrs. Raguz, if I understood

20     correctly, the Registry was taking care of the transportation of your

21     collaborators, of your associates, and not long ago I was looking at the

22     Status Conference in the case of Mr. Karadzic.  Whenever I have some free

23     time I like to find out what goes on in other trials, and I discovered

24     that Mr. Karadzic does have associates and they are paid by the Tribunal,

25     and he doesn't have any problems.  So I was just wondering how is it so

Page 14538

 1     that he has absolutely no problems with his associates and with the fees

 2     and you do?  So is it because Mr. Karadzic accepted the registry's

 3     conditions as to name who is the person, that it's a professional lawyer,

 4     like the Registry requested it from you.  Maybe that happened that way,

 5     or Mr. Karadzic benefits from a better deal than you, I don't know.

 6             But with respect to Mr. Aleksic and Mrs. Raguz, it is clear that

 7     when the Trial Chamber rendered its decision on videotapes, this of

 8     course meant that your associates come to view them, and if they come,

 9     the transportation should be paid.  So the Registry will have to let me

10     know, since I know that they follow everything I say, they will of course

11     inform me very promptly of this situation.

12             Now, secondly, you said that 800 days are needed to view all

13     these videotapes since there are so many hours of tapes on them, but you

14     cannot -- or you shouldn't forget that the Prosecutor gave you a list of

15     all the videotapes, and on those lists you have the date, the subject on

16     the video.  So your associates should be the ones making their choice or

17     choosing the material they wish to view.  They don't have to view

18     absolutely everything, so I imagine if there's something that deals with

19     the month of November in 1991 and in Vukovar they don't -- they have to

20     look at it of course, and if on the videotapes you have an event from

21     1995 or 1996, then of course maybe it's not as relevant.  So it's up to

22     your associates to check and to see which videotapes are the most

23     important and relevant to your case.

24             Now, you've raised this matter.  You told us that your associates

25     are not able to come and that you were the one who had to pay for their

Page 14539

 1     plane ticket, so I imagine that the Registry will be able to give me an

 2     answer as to that, but I'm not able to give you an answer right now.

 3             Yes, you have the floor.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one brief comment,

 5     Mr. President.  Taught by experience, I know that sometimes you can find

 6     precious information in the most unexpected places and that applies to

 7     the video footage as well.  So I don't assume that any selection could be

 8     made there, but even if the selection were to be made, we're still

 9     talking about long viewing hours.

10             On several occasions you initiated this first, and I would not

11     have dealt with that at all had you not put that question first.  There

12     were discussions here about my state of health.  Subjectively I am

13     feeling quite well, and I'm able to normally do all of the work without

14     any excessive burden, even though I have been denied some legal advisors

15     and I am forced to do everything practically myself, but what actually

16     did bother me are the media manipulations regarding my health.

17             Belgrade media have written, and this is a source from the

18     Tribunal 's internet web site, certain things that make me the ridicule,

19     the object of ridicule.  In the public, for example, they have written

20     that I have 133 kilogrammes.  I weighed 120 kilogrammes when I came to

21     The Hague, but in this medical report it states that I weighed 93

22     kilogrammes in November 1998, and now I weigh 133 kilogramme, and that

23     from November 2008 I had gained 40 kilogrammes.  Perhaps I did gain them,

24     but I don't know where I am concealing them.

25             There is a scale -- is there a scale in the detention unit that

Page 14540

 1     would really show 133 kilogrammes?  I assume that in that case it would

 2     show that Mr. Mundis weighs 200 kilogrammes if we're talking about the

 3     sail scale, but I think it's evident to everyone here that from November

 4     last year I have not gained 40 kilogrammes.  Even if I counted my

 5     clothing and everything else, I still would not weigh that much.

 6             Then it says I am 193 -- 1.93 centimetres tall, but for the past

 7     40 years I am actually 1.97 metres tall.  So the idea is that I am

 8     overweight, that I'm having such a good time in prison, that I have put

 9     on so much weight.  But it's true that I weighed 114 had kilogrammes at

10     the beginning of my hunger strike.  At the end weighed 93 kilogrammes,

11     and you know that after such a long hunger strike you do tend to put on

12     weight when you finish because you tend to eat more than you usually

13     would to make up for the loss.  So since I did lose some weight here now,

14     I think I'm at the same weight that I was when I came here.

15             Anyway, what is the point of this?  I'm not in a panic about my

16     state of health.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, with regard to your

18     weight, in fact I read the report, and I was alarmed in a way because it

19     said in black and white that when you came here you weighed 93 kilos and

20     that now you weigh 133 kilos, which would mean that you would have put on

21     40 kilos, which is of course worrisome to take 50 percent of your own

22     weight in a few months.  Indeed that is problematic.

23             Maybe the scale should be corrected or somebody should check the

24     scale.  Indeed, if you are 1.97 and if somebody tells you that you were

25     just 193 centimetres tall, then there is a few centimetres less.  That is

Page 14541

 1     a problem, of course, but what is really important for us is that you are

 2     healthy, as healthy as you can possibly be.  This is all we wish.  And

 3     when I saw that a doctor said that you put 40 kilos on, I must say that I

 4     was worried.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I expected you to laugh

 6     uproariously, Mr. President, because this is absolutely impossible.  I am

 7     here in front of you all the time.  You would be the first one to see

 8     that in eight months I had gained 40 kilos.  I don't know how I would

 9     go -- go through the door.  Maybe they would have to widen the door, but

10     anyway, I'm saying I'm not making an issue out of this.  However, I did a

11     new blood test on the 28th of May, and this is an official diagnosis from

12     the Bronovo hospital, and these are enzymes that indicate the state of

13     the -- the liver, and there are some values here.

14             LD should be below 224.  It's -- to me it's below 281.  The

15     bilirubin should be below 19, in my case it is 26.  The other bilirubin

16     should be below 5 and in my case it is 5.

17             Now, the doctors hear say that all these indicators are less than

18     half in relation to the normal values, and the doctors who are

19     well-versed in this say that it is not really alarming, but in Serbia,

20     which is much poorer than -- and has fewer facilities than the doctors

21     here, would determine in that period exactly what is wrong.  This blood

22     test was taken ten months ago.  So I am wondering why it takes so much

23     time to figure out why this is happening and why everybody in the medical

24     service is just sitting by and watching and not doing anything.

25             But in any case, I am well unless I get knocked down by the

Page 14542

 1     Legionaire's disease, because in the detention units they have recently

 2     found the presence of the legionella bacteria, so one day we were unable

 3     to take a bath or shower until they removed this bacteria.  But anyway,

 4     I'm not going to go on any more with my state of health.  I have

 5     concluded that there is nothing wrong with me even though I'm not a real

 6     doctor.

 7             I still have two things to tell you.  Eight days -- for eight

 8     days the detention unit administration forbid me from going out for a

 9     walk, without any kind of disciplinary proceeding, without any kind of

10     written decision.  I'm not ruling out the possibility of committing some

11     kind of disciplinary violation, but I do assure you that the disciplinary

12     violation could have been exclusively of a verbal nature, not any other

13     kind of nature, because I am -- I am not prone to any other kind of

14     disciplinary violations.  Verbal ones, yes.  I agree in advance that I am

15     the worst inmate who ever stepped into Scheveningen.  However, forbidding

16     one for going out for a walk cannot be a punishment in a disciplinary

17     proceeding, and there were no disciplinary proceedings conducted anyway.

18             After eight days the new administrator of the detention unit

19     informed me that the punishment was being lifted and that I can go for

20     walks again.  But this was something that should not have been forbidden

21     to me in the first place.  Even a person condemned to death has the right

22     to go out for a walk.  At the time of the darkest Communist dictatorship

23     in the former Yugoslavia, those who were convicted to death were allowed

24     to go out for a walk at night, but had been taken out even if they were

25     due to be executed the following day.  But this is what they do here.

Page 14543

 1             And the last thing, you know that the European Convention on

 2     Human Rights guarantees as one of the fundamental rights -- as one of the

 3     fundamental rights --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, just a moment,

 5     please.  During the weekend I was told -- or rather, last week, towards

 6     the end of the week, I think it was Thursday or Friday, I was told that

 7     an incident took place with another co-detained.  I will not give his

 8     name, but if you wish, we can go into a closed session and I will of

 9     course give you his name.  This is why I deducted that given the incident

10     that took place with the other detainee, the administration of the

11     detention unit may have taken some measures, disciplinary measures,

12     meaning that they didn't want you to meet that other co-detainee by

13     forbidding you to leave your cell.  But I have to tell you that the Trial

14     Chamber has been informed of this problem, and it was brought to my

15     attention that you told the UNDU administration that you did not want to

16     inform the president of the Tribunal of this problem but that you wanted

17     to inform the Trial Chamber of this.

18             Since we know that we were going to see you on Tuesday, today, I

19     wished to wait for today to get your explanation.  So it seems that their

20     decision was based on a conflict that you had with another co-detainee.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These are two absolute lies.  First

22     of all, I never influenced the UNDP to prevent them from informing you

23     about this.  I spoke with no one from the administration.  I didn't ask

24     to speak to them, and they didn't ask to speak to me.

25             Secondly, there was no incident at all with another inmate.

Page 14544

 1     Perhaps it could have been in my cellblock.  Perhaps I would have a

 2     slight dispute with somebody in the course of the day and then we would

 3     overcome that.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's revert into a closed

 5     session and I will give you the name.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

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Page 14545











11 Pages 14545-14548 redacted. Private session.















Page 14549

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 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  [Overlapping speakers]

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As we have discussed these issues

10     at some length, I should just like to say in open session also that I

11     adamantly claim that between me there have been no incidents at all

12     between me or -- and any other inmates from the detention unit, and I

13     wish to say this in open session because this is not in violation of any

14     confidentiality.

15             Judges, I need not inform you that the European Convention on

16     Human Rights guarantees to me as one of the fundamental rights a trial

17     within a reasonable period.  As far as I'm concerned, all reasonable

18     dates are past.

19             Some time ago on the 4th of June was held the session of the

20     Security Council of the United Nations.  At that session, the president

21     of the Tribunal, Mr. Patrick Robinson, and the Chief Prosecutor adduced

22     some arguments in favour of discontinuing my trial, which do not exactly

23     correspond to the arguments adduced in your own decision.  The ambassador

24     of the Russian Federation, Mr. Churkin, criticised the unequal treatment

25     accorded to the different inmates, stating that in my case the trial was

Page 14550

 1     discontinued because of a suspicion that there had been pressures on

 2     witnesses; whereas, in the case of Ramush Haradinaj witnesses had been

 3     physically liquidated and no one was actually bothered by that fact.

 4             But this is not why I wish to address you.  Why I wish to address

 5     you is the fact that the president of the Tribunal, Patrick Robinson,

 6     attached to his report a programme of trials up to the year 2013 although

 7     your mandate expires in 2010.

 8             According to the Security Council's decision, all the

 9     first-instance trials have to be finished by the end of this year, and

10     here is what is said in respect of the trial in my case:  That in July

11     2010, the first instance proceedings shall be completed, and the second

12     instance - because he is pre-empting of course that I shall be

13     convicted it is of no relevance whether the Trial Chamber has the

14     necessary evidence or not because he knows in advance that I shall be

15     convicted because that is the Tribunal's task.  In the second instance --

16     in respect of the second instance case, they say that it will be finished

17     in July 2012.

18             If you wish to have these papers, I can give them to you, and I

19     also have them in the English language, so if someone from the Registry

20     could pass them over to you.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I'm aware of this

22     document, and I know what the president has said, I know what the

23     Prosecutor has said, and everything has been made public for the simple

24     reason that my mandate, as that of my colleagues, depends on Resolutions

25     of the Security Council of the United Nations.

Page 14551

 1             It is correct that the president of this Tribunal has set the end

 2     of your trial in July in 2010.  I think that he is optimistic, very

 3     optimistic.  Why?  I have explained this extensively in my opinion on

 4     the -- this trial.  My point of view, and I would like to say it, if this

 5     Trial Chamber does everything in its power, it will take some time.  It

 6     may take some time, and we may go over July 2010 when we resume your

 7     trial.

 8             In my opinion, I quoted two examples.  The first one was in the

 9     case against Florence Hartmann, and the trial is going.  I believe that

10     as I speak, she is appearing in the courtroom number 1.  And I also

11     quoted the Simic case which took two years, and I believe that your case

12     is a lot more complicated.  So this is all I can say.

13             There is a deadline of July 2010, but I think it's a very

14     optimistic date.  You said that you have been accused and that you have

15     been condemned in advance.  Why is President Robinson saying this.  Well,

16     it's if you are acquitted the Prosecution will make appeal.  This will be

17     automatic, because the Prosecution always appeals when there is an

18     acquittal.  So that's the situation.  And if you are found guilty you

19     will appeal.  So the president of this Tribunal has to take into account

20     those two possibilities to say to the Security Council that in the Seselj

21     case, if there is some appeal and since it takes two years for an appeal

22     case to be brought to trial, it will take us to 2012.

23             So you of course are right.  You are entitled to due process, and

24     unfortunately the trial was stopped and you have been in provisional

25     detention for six years.

Page 14552

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's just one thing I wish to

 2     say.  I wish for, that is, for the Trial Chamber to state the view as to

 3     the fact whether my right to have my trial conducted within a reasonable

 4     period is being observed or has been exceeded by far, and whether there

 5     is a reasonable period at all.  If it is planned for this entire trial to

 6     last until a final judgement.  Is detention of ten years possible at all?

 7     I think that you should state an opinion on that and to say yes, that is

 8     the way it should be, and then that would be it.  I will say nothing

 9     more.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You have mentioned very often

11     the case law of the European Court of Justice, and it takes every case

12     for its merits and it decides whether a trial took too long or not.  In

13     other words, there is no formula or there is no set date beyond which we

14     can claim that a trial has taken too long.  It depends on the specific

15     circumstances, and it is very difficult to ascertain whether a trial is

16     taking too long, but is that a motion that you are tendering to the Trial

17     Chamber?  I don't quite understand.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, my colleague is

19     asking you whether you want the Trial Chamber to take a decision on the

20     long duration of your trial, or is it just something that you are saying

21     for our information?

22     THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is an oral motion on my part,

23  and you can do as you please.  You can render a ruling or not.  But I should

24  like to draw your attention to the fact that in cases conducted before this

25     Tribunal in The Hague, never have the dates been exceeded so much.  Let's

Page 14553

 1     see who waited longer than I did for his trial to start, and I waited for

 2     almost five years.  No one.

 3             Let us see whose trials were discontinued for reasons of this

 4     kind, and I claim that the reasons for which mine was discontinued was

 5     senseless.

 6             And contrary to the practice in other cases, take the Haradinaj

 7     case, he squarely killed off all the Prosecution's witnesses and he was

 8     acquitted.  There were a few journalists who exerted pressures on

 9     witnesses in his trial, but that was also nicely taken care of.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Just to be clear, is it your motion that the

11     extension of the detention so far is in violation of the European Court

12     of Human Rights -- the European Convention on Human Rights as interpreted

13     by the European Court?  Is that the motion that you're making?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, two violations have been

15     made.  First of all, my right to an expeditious trial, and also to

16     actually defend myself outside detention.  And detention of seven years

17     is in its own right something which is impossible.

18             In your country, Mr. Harhoff, and in France, in Italy, in

19     America, in England, it is impossible for a detention to last for seven

20     years without the first instance proceedings having been completed.  It

21     is impossible.  I don't have to teach you that, you know that much better

22     than I.  But of course here everything goes.  It was mine to draw your

23     attention once again to this as a problem, to reiterate this problem.  It

24     is up to you how you will proceed.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have mentioned

Page 14554

 1     some issues and we are faced with those responsibilities, but we've been

 2     doing so for quite a while.  You know this trial was discontinued for a

 3     while, and there was a majority ruling from the Trial Chamber to

 4     discontinue this trial.  You know that I had a dissenting opinion, and

 5     I've explained this on numerous occasions, and I'm sure that you read my

 6     dissenting opinion.

 7             One of the reasons why I felt we had to continue was linked to

 8     the duration of your detention.  The Trial Chamber decided to halt your

 9     process -- your trial, sorry.

10             You had the possibility to appeal, and you didn't appeal.  You

11     know as well as I do the case law of -- and the European Court of Human

12     Rights because you are a legal expert and you know the law very well.

13     We're looking at the case law of the European Court of Human Rights.

14     Some states were cautioned for undue detention times, but sometimes the

15     court validated some decisions where the accused had not been put on

16     trial because they also felt that the accused had a share of

17     responsibility in the length of the trial, and if the European Court of

18     Justice was called upon this case, but it cannot be, they would see that

19     you were in a position to appeal and you did not appeal.  This is what

20     they would rule.  This is why I was very surprised when you said that you

21     would not appeal.  And you said that you had no more support from your

22     advisor or your associates.

23             In my dissenting opinion, I did reply to all this.  So trust me.

24     And this Trial Chamber is doing everything in its power to move apace,

25     but we have a witness that was going to testify and is not going to

Page 14555

 1     testify today.  We are trying to go as fast as we can.  It is in your

 2     interest.  It is in our interest.  It is in the interest of the

 3     Prosecution, but we have been halted for reasons that are beyond our

 4     control.  We cannot always have some control over times like this.  The

 5     only way you could have changed this would have been to present a request

 6     before the Appeals Chamber, and you did not seize this opportunity.

 7             I'm sure that the next time you will say the same thing, and the

 8     next time I will say exactly what I have just said to you today.

 9             I would like to know whether we have exhausted all the topics

10     that you wanted to handle today, Mr. Seselj?  Very well.  Do you want to

11     add something?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the end, this is a very

13     appropriate statement that you've made, Mr. President.  Every time I

14     appear in the courtroom in the future I shall draw attention to the

15     violation of my right to a trial within reasonable period, and I shall

16     keep reiterating that every time I appear in this courtroom.  You are

17     quite right there.

18             I shall not appeal, not subsequently to the Appeals Chamber

19     because you have made that ruling.  I shall keep reminding you of that

20     decision of yours.  You can think that I'm doing it out of spite as you

21     will, but it is my right to keep drawing attention to that.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Mundis, I would

23     like to know whether the Prosecution wants to touch on some issues.

24             MR. MUNDIS:  Just very, very quickly, Your Honours, due to the

25     time and the need for a break in a few moments anyway.  I think I can say

Page 14556

 1     what I need to say very quickly.

 2             First of all, of course, it has been and continues to be the

 3     Prosecution position that the delays with respect to this trial and the

 4     previous trial are attributable to the acts and conduct of the accused,

 5     both due to the hunger strike as well as to the allegations that are

 6     pending before another Trial Chamber, and certainly he cannot take a

 7     position that his rights are being denied when in fact much of if not all

 8     of this delay is directly attributable to his own actions in the form of

 9     the hunger strike and other alleged violations, and we would most clearly

10     continue to forcefully put that view on the record with respect to the

11     allegations of the accused that his trial is taking an undue period of

12     time.

13             Let me just very quickly turn to the issue -- and perhaps we

14     could go back into private session for one moment.  I do have some

15     information concerning what we spoke about earlier.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.  Do you want

17     to answer regarding the point made by the Prosecution?  Yes, go ahead.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course Mr. Mundis could not have

19     uttered anything with less sense, that it is my fault because the trial

20     has been protracted.  They tried to actually divest me of my right to

21     defend myself for four years.  It was not a whim.  My hunger strike was

22     not a whim.  It was intended it protect a fundamental right of mine.

23             Secondly, a witness appeared here.  In my cross-examination of

24     that witness I gave you a huge amount of arguments which show that this

25     was a false witness, that everything was made up, and then he made up

Page 14557

 1     that somebody had exerted pressure on him.

 2             Had I threatened him?  No, no.  They behaved decently, but Serbia

 3     is such a country when one treats you with decency you can read a threat

 4     into it.  And you actually discontinued the proceedings, and you told me

 5     that the discontinuation of proceedings had to do with attempts to

 6     intimidate a witness and not because of the publishing of a book where

 7     ostensibly the names of witnesses were disclosed.

 8             So no one can expect all this -- this amount of nonsense on the

 9     part of the Prosecution.  Why?  It is my right to defend myself, and I

10     guarantee you with my life that I shall exercise that right.  No one can

11     deny me that right.

12             The fact that you are violating my other procedural right, well,

13     it is my right to state so in public.  You are trying me for a fabricated

14     guilt on the basis of a fabricated indictment, a false indictment.  Let

15     the public then judge you on the basis of your conduct.  Of course,

16     depending on how the individual members of the Trial Chamber behave.

17     Everyone has his way.  Everyone has his motives.  Everyone has his

18     interests, and everyone has their own targets and objectives.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We're going to move

20     to private session because Mr. Mundis has some information to give us.

21             Yes, Mr. Registrar.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

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11 Page 14558 redacted. Private session.















Page 14559

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you.

11             Mr. Seselj, as soon as we have a new date for this witness, we

12     will let you know, so you will be advised.  As you know, court recess

13     happens at the end of July, so around the 18th of July, I believe.  So

14     there are two possibilities.  Either we meet again at the beginning of

15     July with a hearing with the witness, or we will have a Status Conference

16     before the court recess.  We have, of course, to keep in touch with you

17     even if the trial has been adjourned.  We will therefore be informed of

18     the problems that you may encounter, which means that next time we meet

19     we will be able to tell you what is the answer from the Registry and what

20     is the position of this Trial Chamber.

21             So the hearing for today stands adjourned.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 9.59 a.m.