1 Thursday, 10 September 2009
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please
7 call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor
9 versus Vojislav Seselj.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar. Today is
11 Thursday, 10th of September, 2009. I would like to greet Mr. Seselj. I
12 would like to greet our colleagues from the Prosecution, Mr. Marcussen
13 and Ms. Biersay, and I would like to greet their associates. And I would
14 also like to greet all the staff helping us in this courtroom.
15 Mr. Seselj, we are holding this hearing today despite the fact
16 that last time I had said to you that we would meet again in October,
17 given that there were not many courtrooms available since several trials
18 are being held at the same time. In the meantime, on the
19 27th of August, 2009, the Prosecutor issued a public request with
20 confidential annexes regarding the issue of your representation. The
21 Prosecutor wanted the Chamber to impose a counsel on you.
22 We have looked into this motion and I hope that it was translated
23 into your language, and the Chamber felt that we had to see you very
24 quickly in order to see whether you are planning to answer to this motion
25 either by written submissions or by having an oral submission.
1 But from a personal point of view, I have to say that given the
2 importance of this motion, I do believe that it will be highly advisable
3 for you to make written submissions. Why? Well, because it could be
4 possible for the Chamber of Appeals that -- for the Chamber of Appeals to
5 be either seized by the Prosecutor or by yourself. So we are holding
6 this hearing to see what is your intention as regards this motion and, of
7 course, to give you the floor if you have other issues to touch upon.
8 So, Mr. Seselj, I give you the floor regarding this motion to
9 impose a counsel on you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How can I respond to that request
11 since I did not receive it, Your Honour? I was never issued with that
12 request. I heard that in the press there were articles dealing with the
13 matter and with the request that was resubmitted by the Prosecution;
14 however, I have not received that request. In principle, I think that
15 such a request on the part of the OTP is nothing less than abuse of the
16 proceedings. The OTP is asking for the impossible. They are asking for
17 my right to defence be taken away from me. This is not possible in a
18 civilised world. I can be the worst of criminals, it is already assumed
19 that I am criminal, and that's why I'm on trial.
20 I could have even breached procedural rules; however, for as long
21 as I behave in an articulate and normal manner in the courtroom, you
22 cannot deprive me of my right to defence. In other words, my behaviour
23 in the courtroom should be non-articulated, immoral, in other words, such
24 as to prevent a normal proceedings. In this courtroom, you have not
25 encountered such behaviour. You may have been cross with me when I told
1 you something that you didn't want to hear, that was unpleasant for your
2 ears, you could have felt hurt; however, you cannot deny that everything
3 that was said was part of a very civilised communication process.
4 I have never prevented normal procedure, and since I have never
5 done that you cannot deprive me of my right to defence. The press says
6 that one of the arguments on the side of the Prosecution is the fact that
7 I have been convicted of contempt of court. Can you see how
8 unprofessional the OTP are? They don't have any clue about the law.
9 That conviction is still not valid. I have announced that I will appeal
10 and my appeal is pending. I'm going to file my appeal within the
11 stipulated dead-line. The OTP cannot invoke that conviction until it
12 becomes valid. And even if it was valid, this is not a valid argument
13 for them to deprive me of my right to defence, because the book that I
14 was convicted for was published before the start of this trial, and if
15 this book jeopardises this trial, then you have to annul the entire
16 course of the trial so far.
17 Let's put this aside. The fact that that conviction is against
18 the law that in no serious court of law it could be upheld. I have been
19 convicted for its contents, and its contents consist of a number of
20 documents, none of the documents that I myself authored. First of all,
21 you -- there are my submission to the Trial Chamber which are public. My
22 objections to the indictment which are public. The paper -- you don't
23 have the patience to listen to me? Well, very well, then.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I do not want to interrupt you.
25 First of all, you are telling us that you haven't received or read this
1 motion. We are on the 10th of September. The submissions were made on
2 the 27th of August, so it's almost two weeks ago, so I don't understand
3 why this has not been translated and brought to your attention. So it
4 goes without saying that it will be upon the date of receipt of this
5 motion that you will be in a position to send your submissions or to let
6 us know that you have the intention to answer. That is for one.
7 Secondly, we are not here to talk again about the trial of the
8 Trial Chamber II. The Appeals Chamber is looking into your appeal and no
9 sentence or no decision has been made. This is clear for everyone. Just
10 to clarify this, and you have touched upon the issue based on press
11 articles, and for once they were well informed. The main basis for this
12 motion is that you were sentenced of contempt of court, and as far as the
13 Prosecution is concerned, it bears some consequences; namely, that you
14 should not be able to carry on defending yourself. And, therefore, we
15 should impose a counsel on you.
16 This is the point of view of the Prosecution which is developed
17 in their written submissions. And this is on this that I would like or
18 that the Chamber would like for you to answer either by written
19 submissions or by an oral position. And my colleague is going to add
20 some points.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, I wanted to have some point
22 of clarification. I would like to point out that this is not a motion
23 from August. It's an additional document from a motion. Unfortunately,
24 I do not remember the date of this other motion. Have you not received
25 the first motion? Or are you saying that you have not received the
1 additional documents to this motion?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have not received the motion and
3 I've not even been aware of the existence of any additional documents.
4 Judging by the press, that was towards the end of August. That's when
5 that motion was made public on the internet, but not in its entirety. As
6 far as I've been informed, some of the parts of that motion have not even
7 been made available to the accused.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask a couple of
9 questions to the Prosecution. So I would like Mr. Marcussen to clarify
10 some points. I would like to know whether the motion of the
11 27th of August, 2009, is a real motion which would come as an addition to
12 previous motions on which the Chamber had decided to postpone their
13 decision, or as my colleague was saying, was there a motion prior to the
14 27th of August? So Ms. Biersay or Mr. Marcussen, could you answer that,
16 MR. MARCUSSEN: Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, what we filed
17 in August was a supplement to the Prosecution's motion dated the
18 28th of July, 2008. Now, I'm having this verified, but from memory,
19 there are three versions of that motion filed, and ex parte confidential
20 version; a confidential version, which the accused should have received;
21 and a public version. Now I think it might simply be due to the fact
22 that quite a long time has past and maybe the accused has forgotten that
23 motion was filed.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Seselj, given
25 that I know the procedure very well, I have no right to make any mistake.
1 When I talked about the motion of the 27th of August, I thought that it
2 was a new motion which was in addition to prior motions, but there wasn't
3 a motion that would have been issued before July or before June, so I was
4 referring to all prior motions. But as far as I'm concerned, it's very
5 clear now, and I would like to thank the Prosecution for having clarified
6 that, as far as they are concerned, and I agree with them, the main
7 motion was dated 28th of July, 2008, and the -- this motion is an
8 additional motion compared to the main motion.
9 So this is why I'm asking you, given that you were aware of the
10 previous motions, if you -- I'm asking you whether you are planning to
11 answer to the motion of the 27th of August, but given you've just told us
12 that you have not received it, it is becoming difficult because I cannot
13 really go any further. First of all, you have to peruse all the
14 paragraphs of this motion, and then you can voice your point of view,
15 given that this motion is a 2.545 words and has 34 paragraphs, it will
16 take awhile.
17 2.545 words.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be permitted to say something
19 else? First of all, I've not forgotten anything. If anybody forgets
20 something in this courtroom, it's the OTP, not me. I remember very well
21 the request that was filed on the 28th of July last year and I responded
22 orally to that request. And that request also had a lot of ex parte
23 parts. It seems that this annex or addition of which I hear the first
24 time, I hear for the first time that the new motion is in the form of an
25 addition to the request that was filed a year ago. And that new motion
1 also has ex parte parts. Here we are not talking about whether I'm going
2 to respond or not.
3 The question that is raised here is whether you, as Judges, will
4 permit yourself to look at a motion with a lot of ex parte details and
5 decide on my essential procedural right. You have a motion filed by the
6 OTP to which I cannot respond because I'm not aware of all of its parts,
7 because they are all ex parte. They are eternally secret and
8 confidential for me, and you have to make a decision.
9 This is a Kafka-like process. If you agree to decide on that
10 motion with its ex parte parts, then you have accepted to be in charge of
11 a Kafkian process. I don't know what to respond to and I will not
12 respond to the OTP motions that have ex parte parts or ex parte
13 additions. I will never, ever again do that. I'm not interested in such
14 motions and request. They are not existent for me.
15 And as for you, you do whatever; it's up to you. You know that I
16 have not expected anything good from you in principle and that hasn't
17 changed. You do whatever.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I cannot let you
19 say -- well, you know, you have a great deal of freedom of speech and I
20 will never argue against that, but when you say, I do not expect anything
21 good from you, I'm actually flabbergasted as to what I hear from you. I
22 have to say, I'm astonished. You expected from Judges to issue informed
23 decisions and if you don't agree, you can make appeal. By saying this,
24 you actually suspect that we are partial against you, and I cannot let
25 this happen and I cannot let this be said. Please wait and see.
1 There is a motion that has been filed by the Prosecutor, for what
2 its worth. You will say what you have to say and the Chamber will hand
3 down a decision, and you will wait and you will see what happens. If the
4 decision is not in your agreement, then you can make appeal. If you are
5 happy with the decision, then you say nothing. So before you decide on
6 our behaviour preemptively, wait and see.
7 We cannot really go any further on this issue since you have not
8 been made aware of the motion, and I invite the translation services to
9 be quick.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I? Mr. President, a majority
11 of the members of this Trial Chamber have already made a decision on
12 staying these proceedings and their decision also has a lot of ex parte
13 parts, so I've never learned of all the arguments that were used in
14 making the decision on putting this trial on hold for a number of months.
15 How can I appeal against somebody if I'm not aware of what it is that I
16 have to appeal against?
17 I value all that, but I'm looking at you as a Trial Chamber as a
18 whole and I'm looking at you as a materialised Hague Tribunal here in
19 this courtroom. For me you are The Hague Tribunal. It is you that I
20 meet as The Hague Tribunal and you know only too well what I think about
21 The Hague Tribunal. I've never hidden that. And this is the integral
22 part of the strategy of my Defence. On every occasion that I have, I
23 emphasise what I think about The Hague Tribunal. So I don't see that
24 there's any reason for anybody to be surprised.
25 If you again reach a decision based on the request that contains
1 ex parte parts and ex parte additions, and then if your decision also
2 contains new ex parte parts, what are we talking about? You can find
3 this only in Kafka. I've not encountered that in any law book. I have
4 only found this in Franz Kafka's novel. I have not encountered that
5 anywhere else.
6 You are making a decision on the request of the -- of which I'm
7 not aware. It is impossible anywhere else. Not in Italy, not in
8 Denmark, not in France. In the proceedings against me, there shouldn't
9 be a single secret. The Rules of Procedure and Evidence enable temporary
10 confidentiality when it comes to the protection of the witnesses, but at
11 the end of the day, I have to be disclosed all that. How can there be
12 secrets for me in the proceedings that are conducted against me? It's
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Seselj, thanks for your viewpoints. You know
15 very well, being a lawyer, that ex parte submissions in criminal
16 proceedings is not uncommon. It exists in Danish law, in French law, in
17 Italian law, and even in your own system. So that should not come as a
18 surprise to you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation].
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, the interpretation is missing.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There may be ex parte motions, but
22 they concern some urgent measures that have to be taken. And it's
23 impossible to conduct a trial with ex parte portions thereof. That's
24 impossible. So if a party files a motion ex parte asking you to do
25 something to prevent some negative effects or to prevent something that
1 might cause irreparable damage, and it demands an urgent response on your
2 part, that's okay. And usually they are filed in the pre-trial stage.
3 Once the trial begins, please explain to me in Danish criminal law what
4 can be done ex parte, and in such a way that defence is never made aware
5 of the contents.
6 Here we are talking about my fundamental right. I either am
7 entitled to defend myself or not. The fact that you are constantly being
8 pushed and pressurised to assign counsel to me, well, it's been
9 calculated in order to strip me of my right to defend myself because
10 nobody, no Defence counsel that you could assign to me would not be able
11 to defend me properly. You would assign to me a spy from the OTP who
12 would do everything they could to argue in favour of the Prosecution and
13 to conduct this trial as has been planned, and there's no other way.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Seselj, let me speak for my own part, and I
15 do not know the position of my fellow Judges, but I have been quite
16 impressed by the way in which you have been able to defend yourself, and
17 as of this moment, no decision has been made to impose counsel on you.
18 The Prosecution has filed a submission to have such counsel
19 imposed because of the fact that you have been convicted of contempt, and
20 the meeting today was called because the Chamber wanted to hear your
21 position on that issue. That's all.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Seselj, do you
23 want to conclude on this topic? I fully share what Judge Harhoff has
24 just said. He has told you exactly what is the situation at this stage.
25 Until now, the Chamber has not imposed a counsel on you, as you are
1 aware. Secondly, the Prosecutor has filed a motion on the
2 27th of August. We are waiting for your position on this motion, and the
3 Chamber will hands down a decision. So you cannot pre-empt our decision
4 in one way or another.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not intend, Mr. President, to
6 pre-empt your decision. As regards the assignment of Defence counsel to
7 me, you do know what my general view is, what my position is, and you
8 know what I am prepared to do to defend my right to defend myself, to
9 safe-guard it.
10 If you deliver to me a Prosecution motion or an addendum to a
11 motion with ex parte parts, let me tell you in advance, I do not have any
12 intention to responds to that. I'm not interested in any OTP motions
13 with ex parte parts. For as long as I'm not able to read the entirety of
14 the motion, that motion is non-existent. I will sign -- I will confirm
15 the receipt of the motion in Serbian but I will not respond to it, so you
16 can rule right away. Why should you wait for me respond if I tell you in
17 advance that I will not respond to any motions that contain ex parte
18 parts? There's no reason for you to wait. You can rule immediately.
19 You can rule today, in fact. I have told you what the repercussions will
20 be of a decision which might possibly, let me stress possibly might,
21 strip me of my right to defend myself and I have let you know what it is.
22 I hope that you are aware of it, and I hope that as professional
23 Judges, as professional -- as law professionals who are well regarded in
24 your countries, that you are aware that there is no foundation
25 whatsoever, no reason whatsoever for you to strip me of my right to
1 defend myself, and that nobody who would appear here in this courtroom to
2 figure as my Defence counsel could not do the job. They could not defend
3 me, they would just be a figure head, acting, an actor pretending that
4 they are defending myself. And we have seen such actors play-acting as
5 Defence counsel here in this -- in many courtrooms here, in many trials.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Registrar's
7 informed me that you will receive translation today of this motion. You
8 have pointed out your position. It's on the transcript. So the Chamber
9 will look into this. You say that if the motion contains ex parte parts,
10 you will not answer this motion. So everything is very clear. This was
11 the main topic that we wanted to handle today with you, and this is why
12 we organised this hearing.
13 So, Mr. Seselj, I would like to know whether there are other
14 topics that you would like to touch upon, bearing in mind that of course
15 we saw each other not so long ago, there are other problems that may have
16 cropped up in the meantime.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have two things to say to
18 you. First, I have to keep the promise that I gave you, that at every
19 session I will draw your attention to the fact that other fundamental
20 rights that I possess are being violated, primarily the right to be tried
21 expeditiously in a reasonable time, and this has been violated, and I
22 have been here in the Detention Unit for such a long time and also I'm
23 convicted for contempt of court. And I'm discriminated against when
24 you -- in comparison with other people who are on trial here in this
1 Secondly, some ten days ago I filed a request to the Registry,
2 and this regards the next week, Thursday and Friday next week, I asked to
3 be allowed to receive a visit by Zoran Krasic, Slavko Jerkovic,
4 Boris Aleksic, and Marina Raguz as my legal advisors and case managers in
5 the main trial, and Dejan Mirovic as my legal advisor in the contempt of
6 court proceedings. And since a year has passed since the adjournment or,
7 rather, the suspension of two of my legal associates, and prohibiting me
8 from establishing and maintaining proper communications with them, based
9 on a false claim by Tomislav Nikolic that I abused the privileged
10 communication for political ends. Since none of it has been proven,
11 there is not a single shred of evidence that might disqualify either
12 Zoran Krasic or Slavko Jerkovic, I demanded that their status as legal
13 advisors be restored with all the rights that stem from it, and I have
14 yet to receive a response.
15 Secondly, yesterday, the deputy warden of the Detention Unit came
16 and handed me a letter from the Prosecution but took it away afterwards.
17 In this letter the Prosecution demands that I return to them a list of
18 videotapes that they have. It's the 6.600 hours of video recordings that
19 were handed to me, but this was not done in good faith because it was
20 impossible to do so in the conditions that were set up.
21 The Prosecution now tells me that this is a wrong list and I
22 should return it to them so that they can give me the right list. And I
23 have a feeling that the Prosecution now feels bad about giving me the
24 first list because they now informed me that they have some recordings
25 that they don't want me to know about. I haven't yet been able to
1 identify what those tapes are but I have asked my case manager to look
2 into it since the whole list is in Belgrade. And I also told her that
3 she should keep it safe because if the Prosecution asks the pro-Western
4 regime in Belgrade to look for it there, there is no legal foundation for
5 them asking me to return the list to them. If the list was labeled
6 confidential, I will not make it public, but why should I return it to
8 Let me remind you that in 2005, at the request of the
9 Prosecution, my cell was raided and documents were seized, documents that
10 the Prosecution itself submitted to me, and they removed some documents
11 that the Prosecution didn't want me to have. And those documents were
12 later on given to the Registry for safekeeping, and I now want to renew
13 my request that those documents be given back to me, the documents that
14 were seized, because I believe those documents to be very important for
15 me case.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seselj. You are
17 touching upon quite a few questions and I'm going to try and list them
18 down so that we don't forget to answer to any of them.
19 This is news to us. You have just told us that you had written
20 to the Registry and you told them that you wanted to meet on Thursday and
21 Friday your legal associates. I would like to know whether the Registry
22 answered or not?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With me, not with them, because the
24 interpretation that I received is that they should meet with them. Not
25 with them, with me. They should meet with me, the Registry has yet to
1 respond to this request.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Very well. So
3 you did not get an answer from the Registry, I understand. It is our
4 opinion -- but let me confer with my fellow Judges and I will tell you
5 immediately what is our position on that meeting.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Seselj, I
8 conferred with me fellow Judges and the Trial Chamber's position is very
9 clear on this. You are absolutely -- you should actually meet your
10 associates. You are perfectly -- you have the right for that.
11 But the Chamber would like to say the following: Concerning Mr.
12 Krasic, the Trial Chamber said that you cannot -- Mr. Krasic concerning
13 Mr. Krasic, the Trial Chamber believes that you cannot tell him any
14 confidential information, but nothing forbids you to meet with him and to
15 inform him on the case. You may talk to him about this trial, of course,
16 but since our decision has been rendered, you cannot communicate to him
17 any confidential information. But there are no -- you don't have that
18 many confidential information anyway, so nothing opposes you. We do not
19 disagree with you meeting with him and the Registry will answer to you on
21 And I would like to add that the decision that we had rendered
22 applied also to Mr. Jerkovic. I don't know if on the list that you have
23 given us --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]
25 ... one word.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, there's not a single shred
3 of confidential information that Zoran Krasic has not yet been made aware
4 of, so I would like to somebody to draw my attention to it if there is
5 such piece of information. Even the witness that we heard in closed
6 session in July, Zoran Krasic knows everything about him because
7 documents had been delivered before that. So there is not a single
8 important confidential piece of information that he is not aware of.
9 If the Prosecution now calls a new witness that was not on the
10 initial list requesting full confidentiality, then it would make sense
11 for you to insist that Zoran Krasic should not be made aware of it. But
12 what is the problem now? If you say that Zoran Krasic cannot be told any
13 confidential information, the Registry will use that just as it had the
14 last time, about a year ago, to convene a meeting that is videotaped in a
15 small chamber that looked like a gas chamber after several hours of
16 conversation, because there was not enough air. So what is the point?
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In any case, the
18 Trial Chamber confirms that you may meet with your associates with the
19 exception of course, of communicating confidential documents, but to my
20 knowledge there were no confidential documents since then. I do not have
21 the entire list, however, but I believe that there weren't any
22 confidential documents.
23 This being said, I am satisfied that the first problem is solved,
24 but of course everything will depend on the answer that the Registry will
25 give you.
1 You know, I'm very -- I believe in transparency. I don't like to
2 hide anything and I was wondering, and I checked the transcript in the
3 Karadzic Pre-Trial Conference, and I checked which were his associates,
4 and while I reread the transcript, I found out that Mr. Karadzic has
5 associates, they are -- they receive a pay and they can come here and the
6 trip is paid. So I think that your associates should get the same rights
7 just like the associates of Mr. Karadzic, with respect to the material
8 question. It is of course very important that everybody gets the same
9 treatment in this Tribunal. But that's of course the Registry's
11 Now, about the videos, you told us that the index had been sent
12 to Belgrade.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something in this regard,
14 Mr. President?
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you like to react to the
16 index or --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As regards not what you have just
18 said, but actually you raised a new issue that I did not raise at this
19 conference, so I think it would be good for me to follow-up on what you
20 just said.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well, go ahead,
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Travel expenses for the Defence
24 counsel and members of the Defence team that are allowed to come and
25 visit their client, so far the travel expenses have always been paid by
1 the Registry, and the travel expenses have never been at the expense of
2 the Defence, because the Defence budget, as it is determined and it is
3 for the most part paid by the Registry, did not include -- was not
4 supposed to cover the travel expenses. Those expenses were always
5 supposed to be extra on top of that. And since September last year, when
6 I was visited on one occasion by all of my legal advisors and case
7 managers, and that was that meeting that I was telling you about that was
8 recorded by cameras and in a small airless chamber, that happened only
9 once. After that I was only visited by Mr. Aleksic and Marina Raguz on
10 several occasions and I always had to cover their travel expenses. The
11 Registry refused to cover it.
12 So now I am demanding, since you have now given me an example
13 from Mr. Karadzic's case, from another case before this same Tribunal,
14 that the Trial Chamber should demand from the Registry to cover the
15 travel expenses for my legal advisors and to recompense me for the visits
16 that have not been paid for so far in the past year.
17 I think it would be in line with the practice before this
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber
20 notes your words and we will give you the adequate answer.
21 Now, with regard to the videos, a couple of months ago you
22 requested to obtain the videos from the Prosecutor. The Prosecutor
23 gathered the videos, you say that you have over 6.000 hours of viewing
24 time. You are surely right. And the Prosecutor sent you also an index.
25 The OTP informed you that there was a mistake and that they will hand you
1 a different or another index, and asked you to return to them the index
2 that you had received so that you may have the exact index and exactly
3 what you had requested. So the situation is as follows: You just
4 informed us that all of this is in Belgrade, therefore, the Prosecutor
5 would like to get all that material so that he can send you a new index.
6 If I understood correctly, and can you please tell me, what is
7 your exact position regarding that problem? You told us already but I
8 would like it to be clear.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the
10 Prosecution would go and pick up anything anywhere, but I took preemptive
11 measures. If the Prosecution shows up with an armed support by the
12 pro-Western regime in Belgrade, I've taken measures to prevent them from
13 finding it there where I keep the materials that pertain to my trial.
14 But since I am a person -- a good person, I'm always ready for
15 compromise. If they pay back the 250 Euros that the detention
16 administration found and seized from my cell, and I could not find any
17 rule that prohibits explicitly a detainee from having money in their
18 possession, so 250 Euros and also for the 31 sports shirts that were
19 taken away from me, well, you know when it was that I first raised this
20 issue, two and a half years. And if I get the books and the copies of
21 the Velika Serbia journal that were seized by the Detention Unit
22 administration, if I get all that, I will order my legal advisors to
23 bring the whole list here next week and to hand it over to the
24 Prosecution, and I don't need a new one. So you can see that I am a
25 person showing goodwill and very constructive.
1 If I don't get those things that belong to me, the Prosecution
2 will never, ever get the list that they had given me. The list will
3 simply disappear, without a trace. And nobody will be able to determine
4 how it disappeared.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj, we
6 already knew, of course, but we didn't follow it up. You did tell us a
7 while ago that you had in your possession a certain sum of money,
8 250 Euros. You say that this sum of money was "seized," I don't really
9 know the exact reason, the exact legal reason for this money being
10 seized. And you've also told us about these jerseys that you had
11 received, somebody had sent them to you and you wanted to distribute them
12 to your fellow detention comrades, and the UNDU did not give you those
14 Now, I'm also discovering or I hear you that -- I hear you saying
15 that there are some magazines, Velika Serbia, I don't also know why that
16 was seized and why you were not given these magazines, and so you are
17 telling us that in a spirit of cooperation you are ready to proceed to an
19 It's the Registry that was in charge of the seizure of this
20 money. I don't know if the rule is against a person having money.
21 Normally in our jurisdictions, the detainee does not have the right to
22 have money on him. He may purchase food but then from an account which
23 is held by the Registry in order to avoid money trafficking within a
24 prison -- within the prison walls. That's of course -- those are the
1 But your request is basically addressed to the Registry. But you
2 know, Mr. Seselj, that the relationship between the Registry and detainee
3 is a relationship that can be -- or you can be -- you can inform the
4 Presiding Judge or the President of the Tribunal if you are not satisfied
5 with the relationship that you would have with the Registry. You may
6 make a written submission and the Registry has the obligation to answer;
7 and if you are not happy with the answer, then you inform the President
8 of the Tribunal. And I would like to remind you that this is a principle
9 that exists, and we also reminded you of this on many occasions.
10 Now, you are making an oral request, in a way. You are asking to
11 get your money back, the magazine, and the jerseys. I can say that this
12 is a motion made to the Registry in a certain way.
13 Yes, Mr. Seselj.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a few days ago,
15 maybe ten or 15 days ago, I reminded the Registry about the three
16 problems that I've just mentioned, and the Registry replied that that was
17 the discretionary right of the Detention Unit management and that applied
18 to the money, the jerseys, and the books, and Velika Serbia magazine, all
19 of which were seized from me. Why did I present these problems? This is
20 a sign of my goodwill. If the Detention Unit restores my money -- and I
21 never received a general document showing that detainees are not supposed
22 to keep money. It is true that money should be deposited in an account.
23 However, I had a certain sum of money in my cell and the Detention Unit
24 management punished me for that without any disciplinary proceedings. I
25 believe that that was against the law and I insist that these things
1 should be returned to me.
2 I'm talking here about that somebody [as interpreted] that the
3 OTP requests, and it seems that the OTP is very keen on having the file
4 returned to them because they provided something to me within that file,
5 and I don't know what it is, but they obviously know what it is and they
6 don't want me to know what it is. And I'm just asking for three very
7 minor things. 250 Euro, 31 sports jerseys, that will not jeopardise
8 anybody in the detention unit, and a certain number of book that were
9 seized, as well as the copies of the Velika Serbia magazine. Again,
10 these will not jeopardise anybody because all these are public. Those
11 were all published and available to the general public and there was no
12 ban on their distribution.
13 On the one hand, they can do a little thing and return to me what
14 is mine, and they can deal with that problem; and I, on my part, return
15 the file to them. I believe this is fair on my part. If they don't wish
16 to do that, if they want to play tug of war with me, there's no single
17 person in this world who can be more obstinate than me. There's no
18 person in the world more obstinate than me.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. All those who have
20 decisionary power will be able to -- a decision of power will be able
21 react to what you said. Now, I don't know if your legal advisors were
22 coming next week if their trip will be paid for. I have no idea. But it
23 looks good so far, and as we said, let's wait for Thursday and Friday and
24 then you will be able to talk to them. They will come and visit you.
25 Now, Mr. Seselj, would you like to raise another issue?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have told you everything that I
2 wanted and had to tell you.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, thank you very much,
4 Mr. Seselj.
5 Mr. Marcussen, I'm very happy to see you again. I know that you
6 are now in charge of the file as regards the OTP, since Mr. Mundis left
7 us. So I would like to give you the floor and you can therefore tell us
8 what are the issues that you would like to raise on behalf of the
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm at the moment
11 holding the baby, so to speak, but we will see how we will organise this
12 case later on and the Chamber will be informed if needed about the
13 structure of the Prosecution team.
14 As for the issues raised today, I just -- there's one thing I
15 would like to raise, and that's going back to the beginning of what we
16 discussed this day, and that is the issue of the supplement to the
17 Prosecution's motion to terminate the accused's self-representation.
18 I just wanted to update the Trial Chamber on one issue. Of
19 course, as the Chamber has of informed the accused, the basis for the
20 motion or the supplement is that the accused has been convicted for a
21 deliberate breach of protective measures ordered by the Trial Chamber.
22 He has been found guilty and sentenced, and it's the Prosecution position
23 that, as a matter of law, the accused can no longer represent himself.
24 We're also pointing out that there's been continued breaches by the
25 accused, and one of the things that the accused has been ordered to do
1 was report to Trial Chamber III
2 withdraw certain material from the internet. He did not do so within the
3 dead-line he was given. And it is also my understanding that, at least
4 as of yesterday, the material has not been removed from the internet. So
5 that is simply to update Your Honours on the status of some of the points
6 or two points we have raised in the supplement. That is all I had for
7 today, Your Honours. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, I look at the
9 transcript, maybe there is an interpretation mistake, line 10, page 23,
10 you talked about Trial Chamber III
11 Trial Chamber II?
12 MR. MARCUSSEN: I probably made a mistake, yes, Your Honour. It
13 is Trial Chamber II of course.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well,
15 Mr. Seselj, you have the floor, and after that the hearing will be
16 resumed [as interpreted].
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the conviction
18 against me or the decision that was handed down consists of two parts.
19 One part deals with my 15-month sentence; and the second part is the
20 order for me to withdraw the book from my internet site. I don't know
21 whether you are familiar with the decision of the Trial Chamber. The
22 withdrawal of my book from my site is something that is harmful for me
23 and I deny the Trial Chamber's right to try me for contempt of court
24 based on the rules that were passed by the Trial Chamber. This cannot be
25 done even by the Roman court. I'm going to include that in my appeal.
1 However, the sentence is not final and I will not act upon it
2 before it does become final. I announced my appeal and one of my -- the
3 grounds for appeal concerns the illegal request for the book to be
4 removed from my internet site. The book has been published, it has not
5 been banned. If there has been a ban imposed on the distribution of that
6 book, then the book would have to be removed from all the libraries and
7 burned. The book has not been banned and it will remain on my site. If
8 I have indeed disclosed the name of protective witnesses, which I didn't,
9 then this is possibly something that has already been done.
10 Somebody who has committed the crime of murder and is convicted
11 of murder cannot be imposed the obligation to bury the body. I don't
12 think that this is possible. Maybe it can be done at the Hague Tribunal.
13 Be it as it may, I was given a deadline, the 7th or the 8th of August, to
14 remove my book and the decision is still not final. And I'm not removing
15 my book for as long as the decision is not final. When it is going to be
16 final, we shall see.
17 I have until the 1st of November to file my appeal. Today or
18 tomorrow I will file my request for the exemption of two Judges, Meron
19 and Pocar, from the Appeals Chamber. I have drafted my explanation on 40
20 pages, but that cannot be an argument for me to have a Defence counsel
21 imposed. The argument is he has not complied with a decision that is
22 still not final.
23 I'm asking you what kind of schools you finished, what kind of
24 professors did you have, what kind of text books did you learn from? I
25 find this astonishing. As a professor of law school, I would fail
1 students like you are. They would never pass any exams with me if they
2 had acted and reasoned as you do.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Everything has been
4 said. We will see each other again in the month of October as soon as we
5 have a date. I hope that we will see each other shortly, since every
6 hearing is useful. And one should not despair, sometimes things take
7 time. But I'm hopeful.
8 So we will adjourn now, and the Registrar will let you know ahead
9 of time of the new date so that you may get -- you may prepare yourself.
10 I thank you all the parties present. The hearing is adjourned.
11 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned
12 at 10.00 a.m.