Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15604

 1                           Tuesday, 9 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call

 6     the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours.

 8             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Today is Tuesday, the

11     9th of March, 2010.  I would like, first of all, to welcome the

12     representatives of the OTP, Mr. Seselj, as well as all the people

13     assisting us.

14             First of all, before we bring the witness into the courtroom,

15     VS-1058, the Trial Chamber has decided that this witness will have a

16     pseudonym, VS-1058.  There will be voice and face distortion, and there

17     will be no discussion on the protective measures adopted by the

18     Trial Chamber.

19             Let me recall that the Judges have planned for one hour and a

20     half to put questions, the Prosecution has one hour and a half, and

21     Mr. Seselj will have one hour and a half.  We will make sure to finish

22     this witness today, if we can keep to our time, otherwise we will have to

23     continue tomorrow, and the witness who is here tomorrow can only stay for

24     tomorrow.

25             Please do only intervene when it is absolutely necessary.  If you

Page 15605

 1     intervene, this will be taken off your time.

 2             Let's drop the blinds and bring the witness in so that he can

 3     take the solemn declaration.

 4             Let's move into closed session, please, for the solemn

 5     declaration.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15606











11 Pages 15606-15607 redacted. Private session.















Page 15608

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

22        A.   Good afternoon.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We have read the documents in your file, so we

24     are generally familiar with the statements that you have given to the

25     Prosecution in 2004 and 2006.  The questions that I have to you,

Page 15609

 1     therefore, are based mainly on the information that you provided to the

 2     Prosecution in these two statements.

 3             And my first question to you is your understanding of the idea of

 4     having a Greater Serbia.  You mention in your statement that you came

 5     into contact with various persons who told you that they were members of

 6     the SRS, and you were thus introduced to the party programme for the SRS,

 7     and you also told us that -- told the Prosecution that you had listened

 8     to Mr. Vojislav Seselj when he spoke on television.  And you thereby

 9     learned a little about the idea of a Greater Serbia, and you also

10     understood that this objective would be achieved by force and by the

11     power of weapons.  And then you say that you actually agreed in those

12     principles.

13             So let me start out by asking you, first of all, what was the

14     idea of Greater Serbia, and why did you think that it would be legitimate

15     to achieve this by force?

16        A.   Well, it appears that there has been a misunderstanding.  I have

17     never said that I condoned the idea of a Greater Serbia.  I said that I

18     wanted the old Yugoslavia to remain as it was, and I fought for the old

19     Yugoslavia, not for Serbia.  I became a member of the

20     Serbian Radical Party in order to be able to go to Slavonia, because at

21     that time there were problems there.  I listened to Mr. Seselj on TV but

22     not only him.  I listened to Draskovic, all kinds of politicians, Jovic,

23     and so on.  They all spoke, but I think that you should read my statement

24     more closely because there's -- there seems to be a misunderstanding

25     there.  I was never a nationalist.  I had friends who were Croats and

Page 15610

 1     Muslims, and I still have those friends.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.  And I apologise for having

 3     perhaps misunderstood that point in your statement.  I'm glad that you

 4     clarify this point.  But, nevertheless, if you were in favour of

 5     preservation of the former Republic of Yugoslavia as it was, then you

 6     would be, I assume, in opposition to the various provinces to separate

 7     from Yugoslavia, like Slovenia, Croatia, and so on.  But how would it

 8     then be possible to work for a Greater Serbia without inevitably getting

 9     into conflict with those provinces who wished to break-away about the

10     seizure of land?

11             If you want to take parts of the territory belonging to or

12     perceived to belong to the other provinces in order to create a Greater

13     Serbia, then conflict would be inevitable, wouldn't it?

14        A.   Yes.  Let me explain something.  In 1978, I did my national

15     service in Ljubljana; and later on, in 1979, I continued the national

16     service in Varazdin, the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia.  I

17     took a solemn oath.  I can't recall the exact wording, but something to

18     the effect that I would fight to protect its integrity against external

19     and internal enemies.

20             I personally had nothing against the old state as it was.  I

21     lived a nice life there.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  Maybe for the next question we would move

23     into closed session again or to private session, sorry.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please, can we move

25     into private session.

Page 15611

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15612











11 Pages 15612-15624 redacted. Private session.















Page 15625

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

 6             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I won't say anything that could

 7     identify you, but you must also be careful not to say anything that could

 8     identify you.

 9             At some point I believe you were working in a cafe, more

10     specifically at the beginning of 1991?

11        A.   [Previous translation continues] ...

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And you say that a group of men

13     arrived.  I would like to know this, since you are not talking about

14     anybody in particular, you are talking about a group.  What group was it?

15     Were you able to identify it?

16        A.   Well, it may have been mentioned as a group, but these were

17     people from Smederevo, people I knew.  So I couldn't really label them a

18     group.  I knew all of them from around the town, restaurants.  So when

19     you say "a group," it sounds like a group of unknown people, total

20     strangers, people who had come and made an offer or I don't know how to

21     call it.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] It seems that among those men

23     there were some people who belonged to the Serbian Radical Party.  This

24     is what I have understood from your statements.

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 15626

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Were these locals, or people who

 2     had come from Serbia?

 3        A.   They were all locals, people I knew from around the town, as I've

 4     already told you.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] During this period, I believe

 6     you heard some of Mr. Seselj's speeches through the media.  Could you

 7     give us some details about these speeches and about the speech on the

 8     construction of a Greater Serbia more specifically?

 9        A.   Well, to be quite frank, I can't because I worked in a cafe, as

10     you know, and his speeches would always elicit all kinds of comments and

11     remarks.  So you couldn't really hear what he was saying.  It was mostly

12     us saying things, making jokes.  You know how it is in a cafe.  If you

13     watch the evening news, you can't really hear what people are saying on

14     TV in order to be able to recall everything that was said.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] What were people saying about

16     Mr. Seselj and his volunteers?  You were saying that people were

17     discussing this in cafes.  Do you remember how people were assessing

18     these volunteers and Mr. Seselj?

19        A.   Well, at that time, there were no volunteers.

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] When did the volunteers

21     arrive -- if I have understood you correctly, in that period you were

22     working in a cafe - I won't mention the name of it.  People came there.

23     And if I have understood you correctly, you also mentioned in your

24     statements, sir, that there were members of the Serbian Radical Party.

25     In other words, you are saying that these were mere members of the SRS

Page 15627

 1     and not volunteers; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.  They were gathering volunteers.

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This was at a time when the

 4     volunteers were being recruited.  Fine.  Let's talk about this period a

 5     little bit and your trip to Belgrade with this objective in mind, i.e.,

 6     to be recruited, to be trained.  Could you tell us or give us the date of

 7     this trip to Belgrade?

 8        A.   Well, I can't tell you the exact date.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Approximately.

10        A.   I know that it was after the events in Borovo Selo.  I don't

11     recall the exact date.  It was in early May, 2nd or 3rd or the

12     4th of May.

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] We are still in 1991?

14        A.   Yes, yes, 1991.  If you recall, there was an exchange of fire

15     between the locals and the Croatian police in that village.  It was on

16     the eve of the war in Slavonia, if I -- if my memory serves me right.

17             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] These volunteers and you as one

18     of them, on what basis were you recruited, what ideals were thrust

19     forward?

20        A.   Well, as I've told you at the beginning, not on the basis of any

21     ideals.  I loved the old country, the old Yugoslavia.  Mr. Seselj might

22     disagree with me, but I'm not really all that into Greater Serbia.  I was

23     into the old Yugoslavia because people lived well at the time in that

24     country.  Now it's a different story.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, but then there is something

Page 15628

 1     I don't quite understand.  Why is it, then, that you did not join the JNA

 2     directly without having to join Seselj's Group?

 3        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... was not organised, and it

 4     wasn't doing anything.  Well, they arrived in Borovo Selo after the

 5     intervention, after the shooting.  So I thought that I needed to be there

 6     at the time to help as much as I could, in light of the oath that I had

 7     taken in 1978.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In other words, first and

 9     foremost these are the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party that

10     arrived in this village; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.  Let me correct you.  There were also volunteers from the

12     Serbian Renewal Movement, people who are not members of any party.  Well,

13     it's true that the majority, maybe 60 or 70 per cent of the volunteers,

14     were members of the Serbian Radical Party.  But some of them joined the

15     Serbian Radical Party with one sole goal:  In order to be able to go

16     there.  It was simply a way to get in touch with them, go there, and

17     assist as best as one could.  Now, whether it was a good idea or not,

18     that's a question; but that's how it was.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm very much interested in this

20     aspect of things.  As regards the composition of this group, the

21     Seseljevci, the volunteers, or Seselj's volunteers, not all of them

22     belonged to the Serbian Radical Party.  Some of them did, but they didn't

23     all belong; not all of them were affiliated to the Serbian Radical Party?

24        A.   Yes.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And among these volunteers, in

Page 15629

 1     addition, they did not all originate from Serbia.  Some were locals.  Yes

 2     or no?

 3        A.   When you got there, there were locals, but we from Serbia arrived

 4     from Serbia; locals were already there.  I apologise, but you should not

 5     get mixed up with the situation in 1992 when a group of people from

 6     Bosanski Samac came to be trained in the MUP camp in Serbia.  I just

 7     wanted to prevent any kind of confusion there.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

 9             At some point you discuss a Pecnik, a person who played a part

10     among the volunteers.  What part did he play?

11        A.   Well, he was a local, just a man from that town.  We knew him.

12     He was gathering up people from the party or whoever wanted to join up a

13     volunteer unit and to go there.  He was an administrator of sorts.

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Was he a member of the

15     Serbian Radical Party?

16        A.   Yes.

17             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] When Pecnik recruited the men to

18     form this group of volunteers, did he give any instructions on how to

19     behave during the operations?

20        A.   No.  As far as I could remember, only persons who had done their

21     national service in the army could become a volunteer.  There were no

22     underage people, and people who had done their national service did not

23     need to be given any instructions as to how to handle weapons or how to

24     behave, generally speaking.

25             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Sorry for interrupting.  I'm a bit concerned

Page 15630

 1     about the security issues.  I think the name of the man who has recruited

 2     should not be mentioned on the transcript, it should be redacted.  That

 3     was on page 26, 2, and page 26, 10.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object.  There's no reason.  I

 5     have to object --

 6             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, could you give

 7     us the reasons for your request?  You might be right, but we haven't

 8     quite understood what the reasons are.  Could you explain this to us,

 9     please?

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  This man whom you have asked for who has

11     recruited this witness is also from a small village where the witness is

12     from.  And when people from that village hear this name, they may

13     immediately conclude who the witness is.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object.  Mr. Mussemeyer's claims

15     are not correct.  It's not a small village.  It's a town that has about

16     100.000 people, at least 5- or 600 volunteers went to all fronts through

17     the Serbian Radical Party.  And if this person was in charge of gathering

18     up the volunteers, he cannot identify a single man who is testifying here

19     with voice distortion.  This is a pointless remark, and I would like you

20     to count it against -- deduct it from Mr. Mussemeyer's time to teach him

21     a lesson.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall deliberate on this

23     matter straight away.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The objection of the Prosecutor

Page 15631

 1     is dismissed.  There will be no changes made to the transcript.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] At the time the volunteers were

 4     being recruited, were the criminal reports of these people being checked,

 5     these people who were being recruited?

 6        A.   No.  Usually you just had to show your military record booklet,

 7     at least that's what I had to do.  There was no other check.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I am sorry.  A while ago I asked

 9     you whether you had been given any instructions, and I wanted to know if

10     anybody had told you how you should behave with the civilian population?

11        A.   No.  We were not supposed to deal with the civilian population at

12     all.

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Nonetheless, you were fighting.

14     At this time there were no proper military operations yet, but I'm

15     speaking in general terms at the time you were being recruited.  You were

16     being recruited for operations to be conducted in some of the villages.

17     You know this full well.  If someone said something to you, if you were

18     being given instructions on how to behave, was this done?  Were you told

19     how to behave with the civilian population, the local population?

20        A.   Well, as a rule, we were stationed in villages where there were

21     Serbs, and we guarded those villages.  We didn't have to go into any

22     other villages.

23             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In Serbian villages, the

24     majority of the population was Serb, but there were also minorities.  Did

25     anybody tell you anything about these minority groups?  Were you told or

Page 15632

 1     anything whether they should flee or not?

 2        A.   I don't know about that.  Nobody told me anything.  For instance,

 3     in the village where I was, I think there were about two or three Croat

 4     houses, but I learned that later.  Nobody was really interested in that

 5     at all.  I had my posts where I had to stand on sentry duty.  I patrolled

 6     the area, went back to the house where I was billeted, where I slept and

 7     took my meals, and that was it.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would now like to specify a

 9     few issues concerning the training of the volunteers.  How was this

10     training conducted?  Who was in charge of the training?  Who handed you

11     weapons?  Who gave you your uniforms?

12        A.   We got weapons when we reached Slavonia.  We put the uniforms on

13     during the training, maybe seven or ten days.

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Who gave you your weapons?

15        A.   We received weapons in the village of Markusica, in Slavonia once

16     we got there, from the Territorial Defence command.

17             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And the uniforms?

18        A.   As for the uniforms, we got them in the village of Prigrevica.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did you get a salary or some

20     form of monetary allowance, meals, all the things you needed?

21        A.   The locals took care of our meals.  We didn't receive any salary.

22     We paid most of the things out-of-pocket, travel and so on.  If you

23     wanted to go home, you had to pay for your ticket or else not pay for the

24     ticket.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did Seselj's volunteers get any

Page 15633

 1     instructions concerning alcohol intake?

 2        A.   As far as I know, no, that was not the case.  But drinking was

 3     not allowed, excessive drinking.  You could have a few drinks, but

 4     whoever was engaged in any incidents caused by alcohol was made to go

 5     home.

 6             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Therefore, there were moments

 7     when such behaviour was made clear and you could be expelled from the

 8     group of volunteers?

 9        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... which people would get

10     drunk, would go home, and would not be back in three or four days; and

11     then they would suddenly appear using the ferry, and they would want to

12     re-join the unit.  They were immediately expelled from the unit; they had

13     to return the weapons and the uniform and go back home.

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Now, I think this is my last

15     question.  I would like to know this:  At some time you mentioned

16     Arkan's Group, Arkan's volunteers.  I would like to know whether you know

17     anything about this.  What relationship was there between Arkan's Group

18     and Seselj's Group?

19        A.   Well, I don't know.  I had a couple of friends who were

20     volunteers in Arkan's unit, but I don't know if there was any overt

21     animosity there or anything of the sort.  Although for the most part

22     Arkan's volunteers were not liked, but for some other reasons.

23             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Was there any form of

24     co-operation in the way the operations were conducted?

25        A.   Yes.  If the army demanded it, if the Territorial Defence made a

Page 15634

 1     request that things be done jointly, then we had to do it.  Because let

 2     me repeat:  In 1991 the army ran things; it was in charge.  Once the

 3     fighting started, the army was the editor-in-chief, so to speak.  They

 4     issued orders who should do what and who would do what and go where.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, you emphasised the

 6     date, i.e., 1992 [as interpreted].  You also fought after that in units

 7     which was not the Serbian group of volunteers, as you explained to the

 8     Judges beforehand when you answered the questions put by the other

 9     Judges.  But you were informed about what happened afterwards, precisely

10     because you were still there fighting in other units.  I would like you

11     to tell us something about the co-operation between Seselj's men and

12     Arkan's volunteers and the JNA in 1992 and 1993.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The first date is 1991.

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Of course you know something

15     about this, don't you?

16        A.   Yes, as far as I can recall, I can speak about the area where I

17     was, Bosanski Samac, and the area around it.  There were no Arkan's

18     volunteers there.  At the beginning there were no volunteers from the

19     Serbian Radical Party either.  It was only later that a group of the

20     Serbian Radical Party volunteers arrived, if that's true at all; because,

21     again, I didn't have anything to do with them.  I didn't mind whether

22     somebody was a member of the Serbian Radical Party or the

23     Serbian Renewal Movement.  It did not concern me at all.

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You also mention the group of

25     Red Berets which you joined at some point after the Tordinci Operation.

Page 15635

 1     This group -- well, did this group co-operate in any way with the

 2     Serbian Radical Party?

 3        A.   Well, just one question:  Who mentioned the Red Berets and

 4     Tordinci?  Tordinci was on the 25th of October --

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  Maybe I made a

 6     mistake.  I thought I said after the Laslovo and Tordinci Operation.

 7        A.   Well, you're asking me about 1992, if I'm not mistaken?

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9        A.   April.  After Bosanski Samac was taken.  I don't understand what

10     time-period you're referring to now.

11             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I am not talking about any

12     period in particular.  I'm talking about the time - and I don't have the

13     date, the exact date - when you joined the Red Berets.  And I wanted to

14     know whether you knew anything about this period, the time when you

15     joined the Red Berets.  We shouldn't say any more in order to protect

16     your identity.  I want to know whether you know anything about the

17     relationship between the Red Berets and the Seseljevci Group.

18        A.   Well, I don't know what you mean.  It didn't matter if a person

19     was a Red Beret or a member of the Seseljevci Group, if we met up in town

20     and had a drink.  But we didn't meet all that often because I usually was

21     out in the field doing patrols or guards and I didn't have time to

22     socialise with the members of the other units or ...

23             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In other words, you were not

24     conducting operations together, military operations --

25        A.   No, no.  No.  In that area, the army and us did most of the

Page 15636

 1     operations.  The volunteers came later.  If there were any, they were on

 2     guard duty, provided assistance.  At that time, the army did not allow

 3     them to get involved in the fighting.

 4             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So there was a form of

 5     co-operation under the command of the JNA.  I understand.  One other

 6     point of detail which I would like to clarify with you:  Were you

 7     fighting with the same objective in mind, the same ideal, the Red Berets,

 8     Arkan's men, the Seseljevci; or do you think that there was a substantial

 9     difference between these various groups, nationalistic objectives which

10     were different from yours?

11        A.   I don't know if I understood your question properly.  Are you

12     referring to political goals, political objectives?

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You were fighting for

14     Yugoslavia; that's what you're saying, isn't it?

15        A.   Yes.

16             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Right until the end you fought

17     for Yugoslavia, not for the Greater Serbia?

18        A.   I am still a Yugoslav.  I am just half Serb.  I don't know who my

19     father is.  What can I do?  But it's really true, joke aside.

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Now, among these groups of

21     paramilitaries and JNA soldiers there were some, were there, there were

22     some who were fighting for Greater Serbia, not for Yugoslavia?  Maybe at

23     one point in time they just gave up --

24        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... probably, but -- probably,

25     but you have to understand one thing:  Although it did happen that we run

Page 15637

 1     into each other and had a chat, we really spent least time in talking

 2     about what people are fighting for, whether they are fighting for a

 3     Greater Serbia or for Yugoslavia.  In the moments of relaxations,

 4     everybody really wanted to relax.  And we didn't discuss politics too

 5     much.

 6             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You felt that you were fighting

 7     against someone or in favour of something?

 8        A.   I fought against the enemy of my state, of the state of

 9     Yugoslavia, that is.  And that enemy were not only members of other

10     ethnic groups; there were also some people who belonged to my own ethnic

11     group whom I could consider my enemy.

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.  I have no

13     other questions.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I thank my fellow Judges for

15     their questions.  We'll now have a break.  And after the break, the

16     Prosecutor will put his questions.  Let's have a 20-minute break.

17                           --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Court is back in session.

20             Mr. Mussemeyer, you have the floor for your questions.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

22             Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:

24        Q.   Mr. Witness, before I start I want to introduce myself because we

25     never met before.  My name is Ulrich Mussemeyer, and I represent the

Page 15638

 1     Prosecution in this case.

 2             The Judges have already asked you a lot of questions, and I want

 3     to continue on the fact that you told us that people came to the bar you

 4     were working in, they were members of the SRS, and what I would like to

 5     know, did they convince you to follow the SRS or did they not?  What did

 6     they do?

 7        A.   No.  They did not have to talk me into joining the SRS.  It was

 8     not about trying to convince me.  They just asked me if there was a need,

 9     whether I would care to join them as a volunteer and go to Slavonia.

10        Q.   But at the end did you become a member of the SRS or did you not?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Can you explain us how you became a member of the SRS at that

13     time?

14        A.   I signed the accession document.  I was handed a membership card.

15     I can't even remember now what it looked like.  That was that.

16        Q.   Did you also have to pay a fee or something like this?

17        A.   Yes, like with most parties at the time.  It was a symbolical sum

18     amounting to maybe 1 euro.  A membership fee was charged by every

19     political party.

20        Q.   And then - the Judges already questioned you about this - you

21     decided to go to Belgrade.  Can you describe us how it came to this

22     decision?

23        A.   After what happened in Borovo Selo, I took the first opportunity

24     and I went to Belgrade to offer my services as a volunteer.

25        Q.   Did you go by yourself in your private car, or how did you go

Page 15639

 1     there?

 2        A.   No.  I was taken there by some friends or acquaintances, rather.

 3     The aforementioned gentleman on account of whom you -- and another friend

 4     who is deceased now.  They took me to Belgrade.

 5        Q.   Where did they bring you?

 6        A.   To the seat of the Radical party.  I can't remember the name of

 7     the street.  I believe it was Milos Bojic Street, somewhere behind the

 8     Assembly building.  But I can't be 100 per cent sure of the street name.

 9        Q.   Did you remain in the office of the SRS, or where did you go

10     later on?

11        A.   No.  The first time they sent me back on the following day.  I

12     believe I spent the night, and then on the following day they sent me

13     back.  There was no way for me to go to Slavonia on that occasion, and

14     they sent me back home.  That was on the first occasion, and a couple of

15     days later I returned.  I brought my own weapons on that second occasion,

16     and then I went to Slavonia from there.

17        Q.   Haven't you been in an apartment at the first time in Belgrade?

18        A.   No, no.  If I'm not mistaken, that was the seat of the

19     Radical Party.  I'm not sure, but judging by the way the premises were

20     appointed, I believe that they served as offices.

21        Q.   And you haven't been in an apartment waiting with other people?

22        A.   Yeah, that was an apartment, but it served as an office.  There

23     were no beds.  There were desks, however, chairs, telephones.  It was an

24     apartment, but it was used as an office.  It was not used for residential

25     purposes.

Page 15640

 1        Q.   And did you go directly from this office to the training camp?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You are sure about it?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   How did you go to the training camp?

 6        A.   By bus.

 7        Q.   Do you remember if you were alone or if other people followed you

 8     in the bus?

 9        A.   There were some 20 or perhaps 30 of us.  I don't know exactly.

10     The bus was almost full.  I'm not sure.  I was sitting in the front.  But

11     I believe there was quite a few people, even up to 30 I would say.

12        Q.   What did you do when -- can you tell us what is the name of the

13     village where the training camp was and what did you do there in the

14     first time?

15        A.   Prigrevica.  I believe that I still remember that name.

16        Q.   What happened there?

17        A.   Well, nothing.  We had some physical training there, talks with

18     instructors, and we learned about the basics of how to dismantle a piece

19     of weaponry and put it back together.

20        Q.   Did you already get uniforms and weapons there?

21        A.   As I've just told you, people were issued with weapons in

22     Markusica, in Slavonia.  I was the only one who was armed at the time

23     because I had my own rifle.

24        Q.   Do you remember if visitors from the SRS party came to the

25     Prigrevica camp -- training camp?

Page 15641

 1        A.   There came a time when they did come.  I don't know who they

 2     were, because on that day I took an opportunity to escape into the

 3     village to have a drink or two.  I was bored in the camp.  I wanted to go

 4     for a walk and for a breath of fresh air.

 5        Q.   Do you know a person with the name Zoran Ankic?

 6        A.   Zoran Rankic, perhaps, R, Rankic?  Yes, I know him.

 7        Q.   Did he also come to the training camp?

 8        A.   Yes, on one occasion he did turn up.

 9        Q.   What did he do there?

10        A.   Nothing.  He brought my rifle.

11        Q.   Did you know him from before, or did you become aware of his name

12     later on?

13        A.   I didn't know him personally.  I learned his name only

14     subsequently.  He was a man from Belgrade, and I didn't know that many

15     people from Belgrade.  Although I resided close to Belgrade, I seldom

16     went to Belgrade.  I learned his name subsequently.

17        Q.   Do you know if he had a function in the SRS party?

18        A.   I know that he was a member.  I don't know whether he had a

19     function or a position.  I can't tell you that.

20        Q.   When your training was finished in Prigrevica, where have you and

21     the others been brought later on?

22        A.   We took a barge to Borovo Selo first and from there to Markusica.

23        Q.   Do you remember the time when you went there, first to

24     Borovo Selo and later on to Markusica?

25        A.   I don't know.  I can't remember the date.  It was after the

Page 15642

 1     incident in Borovo Selo.  It was the end of May or perhaps the beginning

 2     of June or maybe mid-June.  Believe me, I really can't remember the exact

 3     date.

 4        Q.   No, I don't expect it.  It could have been an accident that you

 5     remember this date.

 6             Do you remember if also other groups, SRS members and other

 7     groups, later on arrived in the area where you were?

 8        A.   A group arrived later, and they arrived in a different village,

 9     Sodolovci.  I didn't have many contacts with them.  I was on a different

10     side.  And we didn't actually stroll from one village to another much.

11        Q.   You already mentioned that you met Debeli.  Do you remember that

12     a group led by Debeli arrived to that area?

13        A.   Yes, I heard.  But as I've just told you, and if I'm not

14     mistaken, they were in the Sodolovci at the time, and I was in a

15     different village at the time, in Petrova Slatina.

16        Q.   But you remember that a group led by Debeli arrived in the area?

17        A.   Yes, I remember that.  I saw him on a couple of occasions, but I

18     didn't see his men with him, so I don't know how large the group was.

19        Q.   Do you remember the name of the village they were from?

20        A.   What do you mean where they were from?  They were billeted in

21     Sodolovci.  Do you mean where they hailed from, where they were born?

22        Q.   Where they hailed from.

23        A.   As far as I can remember, Debeli was from Kragujevac and most of

24     his group were from Kragujevac as well.

25        Q.   Do you know if Debeli was an SRS member?

Page 15643

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you know when you became aware that he is an SRS member?

 3        A.   I don't know.  Believe me.  I found out, but I really don't know

 4     during what conversation, from whose words.  I really don't know.

 5        Q.   Do you remember Zoran Rankic turning up again and talking to

 6     Debeli?

 7        A.   No.  I may have heard that he did, but I can't remember.

 8        Q.   Later on I guess - I wasn't there at that place at that

 9     time - but fighting started obviously.  Do you remember this, and when

10     was this?

11        A.   Well, I believe in August -- perhaps mid-August or the end of

12     August there was fighting around the village of Laslovo.  At that time

13     the JNA and Arkan lost a few men, if I'm not mistaken.

14        Q.   Have you kind of co-operated also with Arkan's units and

15     JNA units?

16        A.   No.  With the JNA units, yes; and no with Arkan's men.  I didn't

17     co-operate with Arkan's men because he was under the JNA command, just as

18     I was -- at least that's how I think it was.  But we participated

19     together in that particular operation.  I was at one end and he was at

20     the other end, so I was not in physical contact with his men.

21        Q.   No.  My question is:  There was, I guess, an attack or a defence

22     action, and your -- the members of your unit and Arkan's unit co-operated

23     in the defence or in the attack.  Was it like this, or how was it?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  Again, you are purporting that we co-operated.  We did

25     not co-operate.  We did not receive orders from us [as interpreted] or

Page 15644

 1     vice versa.  We received orders from the appropriate JNA units.  But

 2     we -- if you will, if you put it the way you do, we then co-operated

 3     because we were there at the same time.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, at this point I would like to show

 6     a very short video-clip.  It is the 65 ter 6025H.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  But before this, I have a

 8     question, a follow-up question for the witness.

 9             Witness, please, could you listen to me.  On several occasions,

10     when answering to Mr. Mussemeyer, you said that you were under JNA

11     command.  You repeated that a number of times.  You were wounded.  Let's

12     not talk about it because that could identify you, but you also told us

13     that you were -- have been granted a disability pension.  I would like to

14     know whether your country gives you this pension because you were a

15     soldier in the JNA in this respect?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A good question, Your Honour.  I am

17     a beneficiary of military disability, not of a war or veteran disability.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying it's a good

19     question, but generally speaking my questions are always good questions.

20     Sometimes I put questions that are a bit off, but I believe this time

21     this is an important one.

22             Could you tell us the difference, because you say that you have a

23     disability pension, but not a war pension.  So what does this mean

24     exactly?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in terms of the moneys

Page 15645

 1     received, I'm receiving what I'm receiving.  That's that.  I am a

 2     beneficiary of military disability allowance, and that's all.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I perhaps be of some

 4     assistance?  The gentleman was wounded before the state of war was

 5     proclaimed, and that is why he -- his allowance is only military and not

 6     a war veteran disability.  That was before the 1st of October, 1991.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you receive a military

 8     pension in connection with your disability.  I would like to know whether

 9     this pension is connected to the fact that you were a serviceman within

10     the JNA or whether you receive it for another reason.  This is what I'd

11     like to know.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman has tried to explain,

13     but he was off.  I was wounded on the 27th of May, 1992.  Officially,

14     there were no military or police units in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  On the

15     17 of May, as far as I can remember, was the time when the last military

16     unit left Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that is why I receive only military

17     disability because officially I was not in Bosnia at all.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  At the time the VRS

19     had -- came after the JNA or had replaced the JNA, so there was no reason

20     to consider that the JNA was still there on May 27 when the --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was no army or the

22     police.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

24     continues] ...  thank you.

25             It's fairly complex, but when you think about it, I think you can

Page 15646

 1     understand.

 2             Mr. Mussemeyer, let's have this video-clip.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Yes, please.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] In Laslovo [indiscernible] he was

 6     only 31 years old, and his comrades say a brave soldier who had his own

 7     expressed wish returned to battle after just a few days of leave.

 8     Slobodan's commander Dejan Raznjatovic, also known as Arkan, and

 9     Dr. Vojislav Seselj, as the chairman of the Serbian Radical Party whose

10     member Slobodan was bade him farewell.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, you saw this short video-clip.  Could you recognise

13     somebody on the clip?

14        A.   Yes, I recognised the gentleman here, and I also recognised

15     Zeljko Raznjatovic, also known as Arkan.

16        Q.   Do you know who has been buried there or what?

17        A.   Yes, Mr. Mirko Lovadinovic and the other was

18     Dragan Jocic [phoen], if I'm not mistaken.  I remember Mirko Lovadinovic,

19     I remember him well by name and by face; the other one I didn't know that

20     well, so that's why I can't remember his name.  And they were among the

21     four men who had been killed in Laslovo, an operation that I had just

22     mentioned.  It was in August.  I don't know on what date.  And I remember

23     that funeral.

24        Q.   So we could see there Mr. Seselj and Mr. Arkan together at this

25     funeral, and I think the person who was killed there - I can give you the

Page 15647

 1     name - I think you did not mention him.  Do you know a person called

 2     Slobodan Jojic?

 3        A.   I can't remember.  I remember Mirko Lovadinovic.  I'm not that

 4     good with names.  I remember the late Lovadinovic because he was a

 5     university professor, if I'm not mistaken, and his name still rings a

 6     bell.

 7        Q.   Okay.  That's enough for me.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, I would like to move this video

 9     into evidence.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.  Could we

11     please be given the exact name of the person who was buried at the time

12     and the time -- the time-frame when that happened.  Mr. Mussemeyer should

13     be able to provide us with that.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, what is the

15     date of this funeral, and could we have the name of the person who was

16     killed?  You gave us the name but --

17             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The name -- sorry --

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- and where the video comes

19     from also.  We'd like to know that.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The video comes from the -- it has an ERN number

21     V000-4745, several video-clips from this video have already been shown

22     and admitted into evidence during this trial.  The originator of this

23     video is a certain Srecko Radovanovic -- no, no, that's a mistake, sorry.

24     At the moment I cannot tell you where we got it from, but I will not need

25     very much time to inform you about this.

Page 15648

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay, we'll see that later.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             Witness, Witness, maybe you can help us.  We just saw a funeral.

 4     Do you know the date of this funeral, and were you there?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already told you, that was

 6     sometime in August.  I can't remember exactly when -- or perhaps even at

 7     the beginning of September.  I'm not sure.  I was there.  I attended the

 8     funeral.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were there.  Fair enough.

10             THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ...

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There was -- was there a TV

12     crew filming?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I can't remember.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I can

15     remember, I believe that there were two funerals.  The witness is talking

16     about Mirko Lovadinovic's funeral, and Mr. Mussemeyer is showing a

17     video-clip from the burial of another volunteer, but he is not able to

18     tell us his name or the date of the funeral, although the two pieces of

19     information would be of some importance.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, it seems that

21     the funeral -- the person buried at that funeral is someone else.  Could

22     you give us the name?

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The person in this funeral has the name or had

24     the name Slobodan Jojic, and I have several sources where he is

25     mentioned.  In the meantime, I got the information where we got this

Page 15649

 1     video from.  We were provided this video by Ljubisa Petkovic.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ljubisa Petkovic from the

 3     Serbian Radical Party?

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Exactly.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's give it a

 6     number.

 7             Registrar, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1040.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, like the witness, I would like to

11     make a difference between his time in Slavonia and his time in Bosnia.  I

12     have finished my questions for Bosnia.  And before I go to Slavonia, I

13     would like your permission to refresh his recollection because he is

14     partly departing tremendously from his former statement given to us.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed.  You can refresh his

16     memory.  You're entitled to do that.

17             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, I will come back to the time when you were going to

19     Belgrade.  In your statement, in paragraph 12 of that statement, you said

20     that you were brought to an apartment which was situated behind the

21     Assembly building.  Do you remember this?

22        A.   Yes, and I repeated that a minute ago.  It was an apartment in a

23     residential building, but that apartment was not used for residential

24     purposes.

25        Q.   You said in your statement that you stayed there several days

Page 15650

 1     just to wait that enough people show up that they --

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Sorry.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness - Mr. Mussemeyer, I

 4     apologise for interrupting you - but this funeral business is something I

 5     would like to talk about.  We see Mr. Seselj and Arkan, and I think I

 6     understood that the person being buried was a volunteer of the

 7     Serbian Radical Party.  Now, imagine you had been killed.  Would

 8     Mr. Seselj have attended your funeral?  Or did he come for a very

 9     specific reason to this funeral?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please correct you, if you

11     allow me?

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The four men - I don't know their

14     names - I know that they had been killed in Laslovo, and that when they

15     died they were members of the Serbian Voluntary Guards of Arkan's men.

16     But two of them, if I'm not mistaken, only two of them, the late

17     Lovadinovic and another one - I don't know which one that was, I can't

18     remember his name - up to a few days before that had been volunteers in

19     the village.  He had arrived as volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party.

20     Maybe that was the fact that put all those people to the same funeral.

21     I'm sure about Lovadinovic, that that was the case.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to intervene, even if you

23     have to deduct that time from my time.  The speaker says very clearly

24     that that person was a member of the Serbian Radical Party who was killed

25     as a member of Arkan's unit.  The partisan membership was ours, the

Page 15651

 1     military membership was Arkan's; and that's what you could hear on the

 2     video-clip as pronounced by the speaker.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj took the floor, but

 4     I was listening to you, Mr. Witness, and thank you for giving us all

 5     these details which were not so obvious.  If I understand you correctly,

 6     four people were killed, and they're going to be buried.  However, you

 7     say that all four belonged to Arkan's unit, but that out of the four you

 8     say that two were former SRS volunteers.  But that when they were killed

 9     they were killed as members of Arkan's unit.  Is this what you're telling

10     us?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.  A few days before,

12     maybe seven or eight days before that, they were transferred to Erdut.

13     That's where they were billeted.  And they joined the

14     Serbian Voluntary Guards, which was Arkan's unit.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  According to you,

16     you think that Mr. Seselj attended the funeral because these were members

17     of the Serbian Radical Party, even though they had joined Arkan's unit.

18     According to you, is this what explains Mr. Seselj's attendance?  I

19     wasn't there.  You were there, sir.  Could you give us your point of

20     view?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I don't know why he was

22     there.  It may have been that reason.  The gentleman, Mirko, was a

23     university professor, if I'm not mistaken.  That could have been the

24     reason.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Among the four, there was a

Page 15652

 1     university professor.  When Mr. Seselj puts his questions, he might get

 2     back to this issue.  We'll see.  Whatever the case may be, we've

 3     understood that a university professor was killed.

 4             Mr. Mussemeyer, I'm sorry for having taken the floor.  I wanted

 5     to clarify this issue concerning the funeral.

 6             MR. MUSSEMEYER: [Previous translation continues] ... of interest,

 7     I can also provide you with Mr. Seselj's quote where he is referring to

 8     his co-operation with Arkan, but only if you are interested in this.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is what we saw on the

10     transcript of the video.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Okay.

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, I will come back to the time in the apartment.  Do

13     you remember that you said in your statement that you stood there three

14     days in this apartment waiting?

15        A.   I said two or three days.

16        Q.   And do you remember that also other persons were waiting there

17     with you?

18        A.   Yes, there were a few of us.

19        Q.   Did you introduce yourself with your names?

20        A.   No.  We used nicknames.  When you first meet somebody, you just

21     tell them your first name or nickname.  That's a custom.  Nobody ever

22     uses both first and family names.

23        Q.   Do you remember now that I tried to refresh your recollection

24     that Mr. Seselj arrived to the apartment sometime?

25        A.   Yes, I saw him.

Page 15653

 1        Q.   What did he do when he came to the apartment?

 2        A.   Well, believe me, I don't know.  I was in another room.  We were

 3     playing cards, sipping coffee.  I don't know what he did.  He came; he

 4     looked at us.  I was more interested in the cards in my hands than in

 5     him.

 6        Q.   Did you remember that he gave speeches or that he gave a speech

 7     at least?

 8        A.   A speech?  No.

 9        Q.   Do you remember that you said in your statement at paragraph 13:

10             "We stayed in this apartment for three days, and during this time

11     Vojislav Seselj visited us several times accompanied by a body-guard.

12     He" -- now, I skip the next sentence and then:

13             "He," Mr. Seselj, "also gave a political speech and presented an

14     ideology which must have originated from the SRS Party programme."

15             Do you remember this?

16        A.   I'm sure I didn't say that.  Firstly, I would not use those

17     words.  He did not deliver a speech in the apartment.  He did agree to us

18     or bid us farewell when we were leaving in front of the bus, but he never

19     delivered a speech in the apartment, and these are not my words.

20        Q.   It's directly from your statement.  And the next sentence says:

21             "Seselj told us that the volunteer units were being formed in

22     order to fight for the Serbian people and to create a Greater Serbia.

23     This is the same thing I heard him talk about on television previously."

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   What do you mean by "no"?  You don't remember, or you never said

Page 15654

 1     this?

 2        A.   No, I'm not saying that I don't remember.  I'm saying that he

 3     didn't say that -- or rather, I didn't say that.  He told us a few words

 4     in front of the bus as we were leaving, as he was standing on the street;

 5     but in the apartment, I never heard him say a word -- or maybe I did, but

 6     it was not a speech.  I didn't speak to him.  The four or five of us were

 7     in one room; the five or six of them were in a different room.  There was

 8     no room for 10, 12, or 15 of us who were there plus the administrative

 9     secretary and the other lady who was -- the cafe lady; there was no room

10     for all of us in one room.

11        Q.   Do you have an explanation how this came into your statement?

12        A.   I don't know.  That may be down to the translation.  Maybe

13     somebody misinterpreted the word "speech."  But let me tell you that I

14     don't have a political agenda.  I'm not interested in politics.  But the

15     way words were put together does not reflect the way I speak.  I would

16     never use these words or provide a statement to that effect.  If you say

17     something, if those are your words, then you recognise them.  And I can

18     tell you that the wording that you just read out to me -- these are not

19     my words.

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did you sign this statement,

21     sir?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Could I please see the

23     statement to be sure that I signed this one as well, because I signed a

24     couple of statements.  This one may have been signed by me, but I'm --

25     maybe this mistake skipped me.  Can I see the statement, please?

Page 15655

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I had originally planned to give him the

 2     statement later, but with the permission of the Judges I can provide him

 3     already now.

 4        Q.   Do you remember how many statements you gave to the OTP?

 5        A.   Well, I don't know.  Perhaps four, three, four, I'm not sure.

 6        Q.   Is it possible that you gave only two to the OTP?

 7        A.   I'm not sure.  Believe me, I'm not sure.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Mr. Mussemeyer should

 9     not be using false information.  He is now saying that the gentleman gave

10     only two statements to the OTP, and I was provided three statements from

11     the OTP.  Maybe he even provided four.  Maybe the witness is correct.  I

12     have a statement provided in 2004, not signed; another one provided in

13     2006, signed by the witness; and I have another statement which was

14     provided possibly in 2007, it's a short statement, only one page, it was

15     also provided to the OTP according to all the official rules.  I have

16     been provided with three, and now Mr. Mussemeyer is saying that he only

17     gave two.  But he doesn't have the right to say that.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, I believe there

19     were three such statements.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I'm aware of only two statements given to the

21     OTP.  The one statement -- the first one he gave was on the

22     22nd of April, 2004; and the second one on the 20th of September, 2006.

23     Maybe that I don't know another statement given to the OTP, but I'm not

24     aware of this.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to find it.  It's a short

Page 15656

 1     statement, a one-page-long statement.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you.

 3             Can I proceed in the meantime?

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you remember in which language the second

 5     statement was provided to you or was shown you?

 6        A.   I think that -- well, the first time I spoke with Thomas Ackheim.

 7     If I recall correctly, I know that he's Swedish.  And for the most part

 8     we spoke Swedish.  There was an interpreter there to assist us.  I think

 9     that's the first statement, the 2004 statement.  The other statements

10     were shown to me both in the original and in the translated versions, but

11     believe me when I say that I didn't really read them.  At times we spoke

12     for two or three hours.  You can see by the statements themselves.

13     Sometimes they run up to ten pages.  So it's possible that I may have

14     missed something or that the interpreter may have made a mistake,

15     misinterpreted something that I said.  It's possible that he made a

16     mistake.  I said that this gentleman made a speech, but it was not a

17     political speech, not an address.  He merely greeted us as we boarded the

18     bus, as far as I can remember.  He may have spoken about political

19     issues, but that was not something that I was interested in.  But this

20     statement, the words that are contained therein, this is not what I said.

21        Q.   Is it possible that you did not say it but you signed it?

22        A.   It is possible that there was a misunderstanding, that somebody

23     may have misunderstood what I said --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Witness.  I didn't

25     put questions to you on this, but I need to put the question to you now.

Page 15657

 1     When you signed your statement in April 2004, before signing it did the

 2     interpreter translate all the pages for you, or did the investigator say,

 3     "Sign this.  This is what we discussed together"?

 4             Do you remember how this was done?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think -- or rather, I'm sure that

 6     I saw the translation and that I skimmed it.  I read it, but not in

 7     detail.  In 2004 I think I saw both translations, or rather, the record

 8     in English and the record in Serbian.  I think so.  I believe that during

 9     one of the interviews I held both versions in my hand, but I can't recall

10     when.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you understand English?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I speak some English.  I read

13     it quite well.  I understand it well, and I can actually communicate in

14     English.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you read English.  Fine.

16             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

17        Q.   Now I come to the second statement you gave in September 2006.

18     Can you tell us how it came that you were interviewed a second time and

19     signed this statement, and can you please confirm if this statement was

20     given in B/C/S or in English.

21        A.   Well, believe me when I tell you that I can't remember.  I really

22     can't remember what language it was in.

23        Q.   Did you have the possibility to make corrections to the second

24     statement in case there were mistakes in the first one?

25        A.   No.  That's what I'm telling you.  I skimmed through the

Page 15658

 1     statement and I didn't see anything that needed to be corrected.  And up

 2     until now I was not aware of any mistakes, but of course mistakes happen.

 3     I deliberately didn't ask for a copy of the statement because there's no

 4     need for me to try and learn by heart what I had stated.  I stated only

 5     those things that I could remember, what I knew.  If I missed something

 6     because I forgot --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Witness, to

 8     understand things clearly.  When you signed this statement in 2004 in

 9     English, which you understand, and then in 2006, did the OTP tell you

10     that you would be testifying in Mr. Seselj's case?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  If you allow me, I will take a

12     piece of paper out of my pocket.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What do you have on your sheet

14     of paper?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A summons.  Until I received your

16     summons, the Court order compelling me to testify, I didn't even know

17     that I would be testifying here at his trial.  Last time I spoke to them

18     was in September if I -- well, these are the summons instructing me to go

19     to the Special Court in Belgrade to talk to an officer of the Court, a

20     colleague of yours, I don't know what it was, who asked me if I was

21     allergic or anything -- well, it mostly pertained to my trip here.  Until

22     the -- until receiving the summons, I thought I would be testifying at

23     another trial.  I didn't know that I would be testifying here.  It

24     wouldn't have changed anything regarding my statements because I answered

25     the questions to the best of my knowledge and recollection.  But I have a

Page 15659

 1     piece of paper here that proves this.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The sheet of paper which you

 3     showed us is a summons which you received from the Chamber?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a piece of paper that I

 5     received from the Special Court, instructing me to come to the premises

 6     of the Special Court in Belgrade in order to talk to one of your

 7     officers.  And here it is specified whose trial I was supposed to testify

 8     at.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Precisely.  When the

10     investigator who was speaking Swedish talked to you, didn't he tell you

11     that you would be testifying in Mr. Seselj's case?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Nobody told me that I would be

13     testifying in that case.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Nobody told you?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until the time when I received

16     your summons, I wasn't aware of it -- well, that doesn't change anything.

17     I would not have changed anything in my statement.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It wouldn't have changed

19     anything.

20             Mr. Mussemeyer, please proceed.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

22        Q.   Witness, I will read to you what you said in the witness

23     acknowledgement at the end of the statement given on the

24     20th of September, 2006.  You say:

25             "I have read the statement in the Serbian language, and it

Page 15660

 1     contains everything I stated to the best of my knowledge and

 2     recollection.  I have given the statement voluntarily, and I am aware

 3     that it may be used in legal proceedings before the International

 4     Criminal Tribunal for the prosecution of persons responsible for" --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please slow down.

 6             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Sorry.

 7        Q.   I start again.

 8             "I have given the statement voluntarily, and I am aware that it

 9     may be used in legal proceedings before the ICTY."  I make now an

10     abbreviation; it's written completely, the words.

11             And then at the end it says:

12             "And that I may be called to give evidence in public before the

13     Tribunal."

14             And below is your signature.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I will come back.  So you -- you acknowledged --

17        A.   Yes, I remember that.  I was told that my statement might be

18     used, but, again, I didn't know which case I would be testifying in.

19        Q.   I had asked you if you had the chance to make corrections to your

20     second statement.  I don't remember if you already answered this

21     question.

22        A.   Yes, that's what I was told.  And I went through the statement as

23     best I could.  I did it fairly quickly because I couldn't wait to get

24     home, and even now I don't really like courtrooms and I can't wait to get

25     out of here.  But I read it and I couldn't find any mistakes.  I may have

Page 15661

 1     missed something or maybe the interpreter missed something.  People make

 2     mistakes and that's why I have come here to testify.  So if any mistakes

 3     were made, we can now correct them I hope.

 4        Q.   But you also corrected at that time -- I read you the first

 5     statement you gave to the Swedish investigator.  In paragraph 6 it says:

 6             "In 1989 I opened a cafe in," and I don't mention the name,"which

 7     operated until April 1991."  It says "I opened a cafe."

 8             In the same paragraph in the second statement you say:

 9             "In 1989 I worked in a cafe ... which operated until April 1991."

10             So this is different.  Did you correct this?

11        A.   Well, I did correct that because I never owned a cafe.  I worked

12     there.  I ran the cafe, but it wasn't mine.

13        Q.   That's correct, but in your first statement you said this and

14     then in the second statement you obviously had the chance to correct

15     this.

16        A.   No, no -- yes, yes, I corrected it.  There was a mistranslation,

17     that's the most likely explanation, because I couldn't say that I owned

18     it.  Everybody in the town knew that it wasn't mine, and it's really easy

19     to prove that.

20        Q.   So you obviously read it carefully because otherwise it wouldn't

21     have been corrected?

22        A.   Well, I tried to read it as carefully as I could, and if I missed

23     something ...

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Why didn't you correct what

25     concerned Mr. Seselj then?

Page 15662

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I may have missed it or it

 2     didn't seem to me to be important.  I really can't remember.  I gave that

 3     statement three or four years ago, quite a long time ago, and I really

 4     can't remember why I failed to correct that.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Whatever the case may be, you

 6     had the possibility to correct things, not only today.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I was given an

 8     opportunity.  I didn't say that I was not.  I probably missed something.

 9     Well, there were instances where there were mistakes in interpretation.

10     I think that it is mentioned somewhere that my parents had divorced.  I

11     don't know if that was corrected or maybe it was omitted all together

12     because we didn't think it was relevant at all.

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

14        Q.   I will come to another issue where your testimony today departs

15     from what you told us, told the OTP before.  It was in the training camp

16     in Prigrevica where you said that Zoran Rankic did not arrive.  In your

17     statement in paragraph 18 you say that Zoran Rankic arrived from the SRS

18     party headquarters in Belgrade in Prigrevica.

19             Do you remember this, and is it true?

20        A.   When is it that I said that he didn't come?

21        Q.   He came to the training camp in Prigrevica, you said, in

22     paragraph 18 of your statement.  I can read it to you.

23             "During our stay at the farm, Zoran Rankic from the SRS

24     headquarters in Belgrade arrived in Prigrevica.  He was wearing civilian

25     clothes and provided us with some supplies, cigarettes, hard" --

Page 15663

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The counsel is kindly asked to slow down.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Sorry.

 3        Q.   "... wearing civilian clothes and provided us with some supplies,

 4     cigarettes, hard liquor, and better food.  He inquired about the

 5     conditions at the farm and informed us that we would be sent to

 6     Borovo Selo."

 7             Do you remember this?

 8        A.   But when did I say that he didn't arrive?  When was it that I

 9     gave that statement?

10        Q.   You said it twice.  You said it in your first statement in

11     paragraph 18 and in your second statement in paragraph 18.  So you had

12     the chance to correct this; you did not correct this.  What is true?

13     Please tell us.

14        A.   Just a moment.  When is it that I said that he didn't arrive?

15        Q.   Today.

16        A.   No.  Today I said before this Chamber that he came and that he

17     brought my rifle to me.  Please, look at the transcript.  As far as I can

18     remember.

19        Q.   This is correct.  You said that he brought your rifle to you.

20     That is correct.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So he arrived?

23        A.   Well, of course he arrived.

24        Q.   But you didn't say this when I asked you the first time -- but

25     okay.  Okay --

Page 15664

 1        A.   Now, here, in this courtroom.  I -- I'm really sorry, but as far

 2     as I can remember, I said that he did arrive and I said what he had

 3     brought with him.  So --

 4        Q.   Okay.  In case I should be wrong, I apologise, but my

 5     recollection is that you said that at that day he was -- you weren't

 6     there.  But okay we have clarified this.

 7             Can we come to another question.  Do you remember an event which

 8     made you conclude that Debeli was an SRS commander?

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to get

10     back to your 2004 statement because this is Prosecution evidence and

11     merits that we spend some time on it.  In paragraph 13 of your

12     statement - you say that you haven't read it over again or you have said

13     that you didn't correct it - you say that Seselj came to tell those

14     people who were there that they needed to fight for the Serbian people

15     and create a Greater Serbia.  As far as I'm concerned, that is not a

16     problem.  But it's afterwards that a problem arises because had he said

17     that this objective would be met by violent actions involving the Serbian

18     volunteers together with other military forces; in other words, the

19     objective is a Greater Serbia, but in order to achieve this objective,

20     violent action should be conducted.

21             This is what you purportedly heard from Mr. Seselj himself.  This

22     is in paragraph 13.

23             What do you have to say to this today?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me repeat.  I don't know how it

25     came about that those words were included in the statement.  I never ever

Page 15665

 1     mentioned Greater Serbia in any of my statements, not in the context of

 2     me talking about it, but also in the context of anyone mentioning

 3     Greater Serbia to me.  I don't know how such mistakes were made.  I

 4     listened to this gentleman speak several times.  It was broadcast on TV

 5     and it was mentioned, but here it is purported that he spoke to me

 6     directly about Greater Serbia, that he addressed us the volunteers and

 7     spoke about it, and that's not true.  Yes, I did hear some of his

 8     speeches on TV.  But I just want to make this clear:  He did not tell me

 9     directly or anyone else of the sort -- well, I know what he spoke about

10     on TV, but that's all.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that you were

12     playing cards.  On that day when Mr. Seselj came by, how many were you?

13     By and large?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, maybe 12 or 13, 14.  There

15     were two rooms and there was a third room and a couple of people were

16     always going out to have a cup of coffee and so on.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 12, right.  So if Mr. Seselj

18     gave a speech before 12, 13, or 14 people, you were not the only person

19     who would have heard this.  The Prosecutor is adducing this evidence.

20     Supposedly there were other -- some more people who were witnesses, 11

21     people in all.  You challenge the fact that Mr. Seselj said that to meet

22     this objective it was necessary to conduct violent actions together with

23     other military organisations.  This is not something you have heard?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not denying the fact that he

25     said it; I'm merely deny the fact that I heard it from him directly as

Page 15666

 1     opposed to on TV.  Do you see what I mean?  He was saying things on TV,

 2     all kinds of things.  I heard some of them, others I didn't hear.  But I

 3     am simply denying the fact that I -- that he told me that live.  So

 4     that's the only thing that I'm contesting here, not that he made any such

 5     statements.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 7             Mr. Mussemeyer.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I will read the last sentence before I go over

 9     to the Bosnian part.

10        Q.   In your statement in paragraph 14 you say:

11             "During his visits," and you speak of more than one visit,

12     "Seselj boosted morale among the volunteers, and I saw him as my future

13     leader."

14             This is in your statement.  Have you an explanation for that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Please explain.

17        A.   I never said that I saw anyone as my future leader, and I am

18     ready to take the lie detector test.  I really don't know how I missed

19     that when I was reading that.  But to say that I saw him as my future

20     leader; my leader died in 1981.

21        Q.   Thank you for the answer, but just to recollect you, you said it

22     twice in your statement.  I will come to the Bosnian part now.

23             Mr. Witness, when and how were you informed that your unit has to

24     prepare for operations in Bosnia; do you remember?

25        A.   I was in Koprivna at the time.  It's a village between Vinkovci,

Page 15667

 1     Vukovar, and Osijek.  And at that time I was already a member of the

 2     police unit.  And one day they came and they said - I don't know who it

 3     was.  I think it was a guy from Ednestinovo [phoen] or something like

 4     that, a uniformed police officer, an inspector, and he told us to return

 5     our weapons and to go to Serbia.

 6        Q.   Do you remember if Debeli asked you to follow his unit to go to

 7     Bosnia?

 8        A.   He asked everyone from the unit whether they wanted to go to

 9     Bosnia, so whoever decided not to could simply return the weapons and the

10     equipment and go home.  It wasn't just me.

11        Q.   Where -- do you remember the village where you went then for

12     training?

13        A.   Well, it's a tourist resort of some kind.  Lezimir, that's what

14     it's called.  And we went to Pajzos later.

15        Q.   Who were your trainers at that time?

16        A.   As far as I can recall and given that I saw a person from my home

17     town and I knew that he was an active-duty police officer, it was the

18     Serbian police of the Republic of Serbia.

19        Q.   You already mentioned, when you were asked by the Judges, the

20     name Simatovic.  Do you remember that he came visit you?

21        A.   He came to visit us at Pajzos.  That was the second part of our

22     training.  He didn't come to Lezimir, or at least I didn't see him there.

23        Q.   Do you remember what he told you?

24        A.   Well, at Pajzos I remember that he said that we would be going to

25     Bosnia, that we would be stationed in Bosanski Samac, or, rather, in a

Page 15668

 1     village near Bosanski Samac, that we would receive our orders en route as

 2     we went by.  And he asked if anyone needed any equipment or anything

 3     else.

 4        Q.   Did he tell you that it would be a difficult situation in

 5     Bosanski Samac?

 6        A.   Well, he said it would be difficult, because we flew there by

 7     helicopter.  We couldn't get there by bus, so we had to fly to a village

 8     near Bosanski Samac.

 9        Q.   Do you remember who provided the helicopter?

10        A.   Well, the Yugoslav Army.  The pilots were active-duty servicemen,

11     and the helicopters had their insignia.

12        Q.   Do you remember if a representative from Bosanski Samac arrived

13     the day when Simatovic visited you?

14        A.   Yes, I remember at least one.

15        Q.   Do you remember his name?

16        A.   Stevan Todorovic.  Stevan Todorovic.  I do apologise.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Then you were transported by helicopter to which

18     village; do you remember?

19        A.   If I'm not mistaken, it was called Batkusa or something like

20     that.  I think it was Batkusa.  We landed on the football pitch.

21        Q.   Do you remember names of persons who were with you in the

22     helicopter?

23        A.   No.  I remember just a couple of names; at least some of them

24     were killed.  A few names.  I may recall some nicknames.  But I'm really

25     bad about names.  But I might be able to remember some names, maybe --

Page 15669

 1     well, I do remember the names of people I socialised with, but that's a

 2     different story.

 3        Q.   Do you remember the colour of the berets some of these people

 4     were wearing?

 5        A.   What people?

 6        Q.   The people in the helicopter.  Were there people who were wearing

 7     red berets, for example?

 8        A.   There were no people with red berets in the helicopter because

 9     all of us had camouflage hats.

10        Q.   You are sure about this?

11        A.   Absolutely.

12        Q.   Can you explain us or tell us who a man with the nickname Crni

13     was, or was it his real name?  I'm not sure.

14        A.   Crni was not in my helicopter.  Crni was in the first helicopter.

15     I was in the third one.  You asked me if there were any people with red

16     berets in my helicopter, and I said no.

17        Q.   Isn't it possible that people like Crni, Mali Vuk [phoen], and

18     Debeli wore red berets on that occasion?

19        A.   -- they were.

20        Q.   What was your task when you arrived in Batkusa?

21        A.   Nothing at first.  We were billeted there.  The first couple of

22     days it was physical training, familiarisation with the ground, with

23     members of the reservists or members of the Army of Yugoslavia and local

24     reservists.  We got to know the area.  Nothing major.

25        Q.   Do you remember what happened the night or the evening before the

Page 15670

 1     attack on Bosanski Samac?

 2        A.   On the eve of the attack on Bosanski Samac, we had a meeting to

 3     negotiate -- to discuss the plan.  We were told what to do, how to do it.

 4        Q.   Who was in command or who was the main person who instructed you?

 5     Do you remember the name?

 6        A.   I don't remember the name, but I remember his nickname, Kriger.

 7     He was lieutenant-colonel, if I'm not mistaken.  And he was the member of

 8     that tactical group, a member of the Yugoslav People's Army.  And he was

 9     in charge of that part of the territory around Bosanski Samac, the area

10     from Loncari or Gorica; I'm not sure.  Pelagicevo as well.  That part of

11     the area was under the control of the 17th Tactical Group and local

12     reservists who hailed from the territory, and we were also subordinated

13     to him.

14        Q.   Is it correct when we say that Kriger was the overall commander?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Could you now explain us what was the task of your group for the

17     attack on Bosanski Samac?

18        A.   I was personally tasked with taking the culture hall in

19     Bosanski Samac.  Debeli, if I'm not mistaken, was charged with the police

20     station, and he was wounded there.  I don't know about the other groups,

21     which group had what task, but I know that there was ones that were sent

22     to the silo, one to the bridge.  And that was about all.

23        Q.   Did you find any resistance while you were trying to secure the

24     area?

25        A.   There was some resistance at the police station.  I personally

Page 15671

 1     entered the culture hall with an escort without any problems, no

 2     resistance there.  There was some resistance at the police station, and

 3     that's how Debeli got wounded as a matter of fact.

 4        Q.   Do you remember if also a group of locals participated in the

 5     liberation of Bosanski Samac?

 6        A.   Yes, I remember.  There was a group of some 10 or 12 local lads

 7     who had undergone training in Pajzos.

 8        Q.   So you already knew them from that time?

 9        A.   Well, I knew them by sight.  I didn't know them personally.  We

10     used to see them around, but just in passing.  We never communicated with

11     them.

12        Q.   Did your unit have to fight while securing or attacking the

13     building?

14        A.   No.  There was no resistance to speak of.

15        Q.   Was the door opened for you?

16        A.   There was a man with a key inside, if I remember correctly.

17        Q.   And this man opened?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you stay all the time in the building or have you been

20     replaced later?

21        A.   Until the morning, until perhaps 10.00 or 11.00, let's say that I

22     and my group stayed in the building until 10.00, and then we were

23     replaced.  I can't remember who replaced us.  I believe that they were

24     locals or Territorial Defence members who were -- who had arrived later.

25        Q.   Were you then told to go to another building?

Page 15672

 1        A.   No.  Then we had a short break.  Across the street from the SUP

 2     building there was a building which housed the Territorial Defence and

 3     the civilian protection, or I don't know what the names were at the time.

 4     That's where we stayed an hour or two, and there was no pending task for

 5     us.  We took a short break because we hadn't slept for the entire night

 6     and the best part of that morning.

 7        Q.   Do you know who was occupying the SUP building?

 8        A.   I believe that Debeli and his group were tasked with taking the

 9     SUP building, and that's where he was wounded, as I've just told you.

10        Q.   Did also a person with a nickname Lugar participate in this?

11        A.   Possibly.

12        Q.   Can you explain who Lugar was?

13        A.   He was from Kragujevac.  That's where he was born.  That's where

14     he resided and worked.  I knew him only briefly.  What I knew about him

15     was from the unit.  We had some contacts.  We used to see each other.  He

16     has died in the meantime.

17        Q.   Do you know if he was a member of the SRS?

18        A.   I believe so, yes.

19        Q.   From where; do you know?  Can you tell us?

20        A.   Really, I can't.  I don't know.  Perhaps it was him -- I don't

21     know whether we touched upon the subject or not.  I really don't know.

22             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, I would -- I would like to show

23     on the monitor the document with the ERN 07530.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Mussemeyer, could we have the 65 ter number,

25     please.

Page 15673

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  That is the 65 ter number -- sorry, the exact

 2     65 ter number is 0341-7948.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  And could I please see the next page.

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you see the picture in the middle of this

 6     newspaper article?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you know this person?

 9        A.   Yes.  That's the late Lugar.

10        Q.   Can you read the third paragraph of this article which starts

11     with the words "Miljkovic went to the front as early as 1991 ..."

12        A.   Could the letters please be blown up?  My sight is not very good.

13     Hold on.  I have a magnifying glass here.  Maybe that will help.

14             The third paragraph, where is that?

15        Q.   No.  The paragraph which starts with the word "Miljkovic went to

16     the front as early as 1991 ..." It might also be the second paragraph; it

17     depends how you count.

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, we must go to the left side of

19     the picture and then -- yeah.

20        Q.   And there it starts with:  "Miljkovic went to the front ..."

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Can I propose that I read it in English and the

22     witness will tell us if it is correct?

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

25        Q.   Please -- Mr. Witness, please check if what I read from the

Page 15674

 1     translation is correct with what is written there.

 2             "Miljkovic went to the front as early as 1991, and in speaking of

 3     it later on he said:  'My brother was mobilised.  When they were cut off

 4     between Tovarnik and Ilici, they told me here in the army that the unit

 5     did not exist.'"

 6             And there are three points.  It says:

 7             "I asked Vojislav Seselj whether he accepted volunteers and

 8     whether people wanted to go to Slavonia, and then I went as a member of

 9     the Serbian Radical Party."

10             Is this correct, Mr. Witness?

11        A.   I don't understand.  Are you asking me whether that's what it

12     says here?

13        Q.   Exactly, because I read it in English and you can check the

14     original.

15        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes.

16        Q.   So from this article we can conclude that this Lugar asked

17     Mr. Seselj if he can go as an SRS volunteer to the front?

18        A.   Yes, that's what I'm reading.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Although you allowed

20     Mr. Mussemeyer to ask leading questions, this was not a leading question.

21     This was sheer impertinence.  One could conclude from this whether Lugar

22     stated for the newspapers or whether the newspapers published that he had

23     stated that he had asked Vojislav Seselj.  This is as if I was there at

24     everybody's disposal in Kragujevac for him to ask me.  And now Mussemeyer

25     is suggesting to the witness that it can be concluded that indeed he

Page 15675

 1     asked me whether he can go.  This is impertinent.  The witness can only

 2     say that this is what he read in the newspapers.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is something that I've

 4     just read.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, there you go.  You cannot ask

 6     the witness whether this is correct and whether this is a conclusion we

 7     can draw.  We cannot draw conclusions from a newspaper, can we?  There is

 8     a statement by Tomislav Nikolic.  Nikolic says that Lugar went of his own

 9     will in the same article and Nikolic didn't lie.  This article was

10     published in 1998.  He would probably lie today about this article,

11     about -- like this about anything else.  In 1998 he still didn't have the

12     reason to be afraid of The Hague Tribunal.

13             Look at the last paragraph in this column.  And this is really

14     very problematic on the part of Mr. Mussemeyer.  He is here to establish

15     the truth as an officer of international justice instead of using lies

16     and deceptions.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your comment is on the

18     transcript.

19             Now, before the break, Mr. Mussemeyer, please put your question

20     to the witness with -- so that -- Bosanski Samac is mentioned in the

21     indictment as a settlement where crimes were committed but crimes that

22     are not blamed on the accused.  It was just there to illustrate the

23     consistent pattern of conduct.  So put your question now.  What do you

24     want to elicit from this witness?

25             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I think the witness already answered this,

Page 15676

 1     Your Honour.  I asked him if he knows that Lugar was a member of the SRS,

 2     and he affirmed this.  And then I showed him this newspaper article which

 3     is more or less the same, what he has already testified about.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             Witness, you said that Lugar had been a volunteer of the SRS.

 6     Very well.  Now, I would like to know the following:  I would like to

 7     know whether -- when exactly occurred the operation on Bosanski Samac?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I'm not mistaken - and I believe

 9     I'm not - I remember the date.  It was on the 17th of April, or, rather,

10     during the night between the 16th and the 17th of April, if I'm not

11     mistaken.  I repeat.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which year?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 1992.  In your statement on

15     paragraph 52 - let me refresh your memory - you said that Lugar's Group

16     was under VRS command.  Did you say this, yes or no?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What you are referring to as

18     Lugar's Group, that doesn't have anything to do with the 17 of April.  It

19     could not be put in connection with the 17th of April.  It was much

20     later.  Lugar had his own group; he arrived with his own group after my

21     arrival from hospital, and I arrived from hospital sometime in mid-June.

22     And then the unit returned to Serbia.  And perhaps some ten days later

23     Lugar came with a group of volunteers and then he was a volunteer.  Up to

24     that moment, he was not a volunteer.  Lugar was not a volunteer.  He was

25     the commander of the first squad in the battle group Samac.  And he was

Page 15677

 1     under the JNA command.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Should I understand from this

 3     that all operations conducted were conducted under JNA command?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment up to the

 5     17th of May, 1992, the answer would be yes.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And then after which command?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 8     continues] ... as I have read it here, it was the 2nd Posavina Brigade.

 9     I don't know the exact name of the unit.  After that, it was under the

10     command of the Army of Republika Srpska or whatever it was called at the

11     time.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13             Now, an essential question for me and I believe for my fellow

14     Judges also:  I would like to know, when these military operations

15     occurred, all these military operations of all sorts, were they always

16     under -- were they under direct command of the SRS?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What operations?  I did not

18     understand the gist of your question.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For example, the operation on

20     Bosanski Samac.  I would like to know whether this operation was

21     conducted under the command of the SRS.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

23     continues] ... operation -- at that time there were no volunteers of the

24     Serbian Radical Party in Bosanski Samac and its environs; only the army

25     and our unit that had arrived by helicopters.  You couldn't travel

Page 15678

 1     through Bijeljina or Brcko because the roads was impassable at the time.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So Bosanski Samac was a

 3     military operation conducted by the JNA?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to know whether

 6     there were SRS volunteers among the troops?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Among the troops?  You mean the

 8     JNA?  The army that we found there?  I don't know if there were any

 9     volunteers.  There were soldiers.  The way I saw things and whatever

10     soldiers I met, I don't know if there were any volunteers.  They all bore

11     the insignia of the then-Yugoslav People's Army.  I don't know if there

12     were any volunteers.  I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We must break now because the

14     tape is almost over.  We'll have a 20-minute break.  And let me remind

15     Mr. Mussemeyer that he has about 30 minutes left.

16                           --- Recess taken at 5.51 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 6.10 p.m.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Court is back in session.

19             Mr. Mussemeyer, you have something like 30 minutes left, no more.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I'll try to do it in this time, Your Honour.

21             Mr. Registrar, could you please call up on the monitor the

22     document which has the 65 ter number 1724.  This is a document which has

23     already been admitted recently on the 17th of February, 2010, and it has

24     the P number 01018.  This is Official Notes from questioning of the

25     accused Slobodan Miljkovic.

Page 15679

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, I know that you don't have the best eye - sorry -

 2     for this, but could I ask you to go on the first page in to the middle

 3     and read who is present.  This is a record of questioning of accused.

 4     Now, you can see an investigating judge, a recording clerk, and the

 5     accused.  Do you see this?

 6        A.   It's on the right-hand side of this document, right?

 7        Q.   Exactly.  What do you read as the name of the accused?

 8        A.   Slobodan Miljkovic.

 9        Q.   And this Slobodan Miljkovic is the person who has the nickname

10     Lugar; can you confirm this?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, could we go to page 3 of the

13     B/C/S version.

14        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, there is what is for me is interesting what is

15     written in paragraph 7 of this document which starts:

16             "I was the commander of the special purpose group ..."

17             Sorry, your -- it starts with:

18             "Before my arrival at the front line in Bosanska Posavina, I was

19     in eastern Slavonia ..."

20             Can you follow what I'm reading slowly in English that it is

21     correct on the B/C/S version?  I start again at paragraph 7:

22             "Before my arrival at the front lines in Bosanska Posavina, I was

23     in eastern Slavonia, where I spent a while working in the police.  I was

24     even deputy commander of the police station in Koprivna village.  After

25     that we went to train to Pajzos and Lezimir, and after the training we

Page 15680

 1     were transferred by helicopter to Batkusa village in Bosanska Posavina.

 2     Before going to Posavina, there were contacts with the Samac public

 3     security station chief, Stevan Todorovic, and the agreement was made for

 4     a group of Radicals to come to assist the soldiers in Posavina.  Our

 5     first operation occurred seven to eight days after we arrived in

 6     Posavina.  The operation was aimed at the town of Samac, which we

 7     liberated in 38 minutes.  I was commander of the special purpose unit at

 8     the time."

 9             Is it correct what is written there?

10        A.   In part.  I don't know how this was translated and who did the

11     translation, but, at that time, Slobodan was the commander, "komandir,"

12     of the first squad.  And the unit commander was Srecko Debeli,

13     "komandant."  Crni and Vuk were in charge of maintaining radio contact

14     with Serbia, and that's all.  And half of the things quoted here are not

15     correct.  I don't know whether he stated there -- that there or not.  I'm

16     not going to go into that.  But he was a squad commander, squad leader.

17     He did not command the unit.

18        Q.   What is interesting for me is - I ask you if you can confirm

19     this - if Stevan Todorovic asked for a group of Radicals to be sent to

20     Bosanski Samac?

21        A.   I don't know that.  I can't say that.  But a group of Radicals

22     was not sent to Bosanski Samac at all.  It was not a group of Radicals

23     that went by helicopter there.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one brief objection.

25     Mr. Mussemeyer has a statement by Stevan Todorovic, and he also has

Page 15681

 1     Simo Zaric's statement; He was also tried here.  Stevan Todorovic had a

 2     plea bargain with the Prosecution.  They testify about an agreement with

 3     Lugar's Group sometime in autumn of that year where they asked for a

 4     large sum of money in order to get involved there, but it couldn't have

 5     been in May when this group became part of the 17th Tactical Group of the

 6     JNA.  So the Prosecution has that, and they can use it.  They have

 7     Simo Zaric's statement and Stevan Todorovic's statement, and they didn't

 8     give me any of those.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What you are saying now is

10     typically something you could have asked during your cross-examination.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Mussemeyer.

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Before I come to the events in Crkvina, I would

13     like you to admit the newspaper article, which we were using before, into

14     evidence.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was this not already admitted?

16             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Not the newspaper article.  This statement of

17     Lugar was admitted.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, the press

19     article, could we have a number, please.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P1041.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, I would like to come to the events which happened

23     obviously in Crkvina.  Can you tell us what happened there in May 1992?

24        A.   As I have said in my statement, several people were killed there.

25        Q.   Please let us now how you were involved.  Were you present at

Page 15682

 1     that time?  How did you come to this event?

 2        A.   I was present there on that day, if I'm not mistaken.  We said

 3     farewell to Vuk Vukovic -- I don't know if that was his last name.  Vuk

 4     was his nickname.  Maybe I went on a furlough by car.  I was in a

 5     restaurant; I sat down to eat something.  And then I wanted to go back to

 6     the camp.  And then I went to Crkvina.  Upon Lugar's invitation, I went

 7     to the crossroads where the prisoners were located.

 8        Q.   What did Lugar tell you what he has to do there?

 9        A.   Lugar said that he had been given an order and that he had to do

10     something there.  I didn't know what it was all about.  I headed there.

11     He commanded a squad, and I, myself, I was the commander of the third

12     squad, so there was no reason for me not to accompany him, given that he

13     had asked me to.

14        Q.   Where did you go, you and Lugar?

15        A.   There were several of us.  He was alone; he had his escort.  And

16     we went to Crkvina, to that place where the prisoners were located.  It

17     was a hall of some sort.  It was already dark, if I'm not mistaken.  It

18     was in the evening -- in fact, I'm sure it was in the evening.

19        Q.   Where were these prisoners held prisoner?

20        A.   In the hangar, a hall of some sort.  I don't know what its

21     original purpose was.  But at any rate it was an empty room perhaps the

22     size of this courtroom, slightly longer perhaps.

23        Q.   What did Lugar do then?

24        A.   There was a conflict, gun-fire.  I left the place.  I went out.

25     I don't know what happened later.  I didn't see what happened.  Later on,

Page 15683

 1     I heard that several people had been killed.

 2        Q.   Did you see the prisoners in the barn?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you remember how many it were approximately?

 5        A.   Well, 20, 30; I'm not sure.

 6        Q.   Did Lugar order something to them?

 7        A.   I can't recall.  I don't think that there was any need to do

 8     that.  They all got up the moment the door opened and the moment we got

 9     in.  They all got up.  They just stood there.  I don't recall him

10     ordering anything.

11        Q.   Had they to be lined up?

12        A.   Well, it was usual procedure for them to line up.  It was

13     normal -- well, normal.  It was the usual thing to do, to get up and to

14     line up.

15        Q.   Did they do this automatically or have they been asked to do

16     this?

17        A.   I think that they immediately started getting up.  I'm not sure,

18     but I think that they started getting up the moment the door opened.

19        Q.   And then they lined up?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What did Lugar do the next moments?

22        A.   I don't know.  There was an altercation, threats, weapons were

23     pulled, and I left.

24        Q.   Was --

25        A.   I heard several shots.  I didn't know if they were fired in the

Page 15684

 1     air or if they were fired at people.  Later on I heard that several

 2     people had been killed.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Can I refresh the witness's memory because he is

 4     departing a bit from his former statement.

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, you said in your statement in paragraph 46:

 6             "We went to Crkvina, where I observed about 30 to 35 men dressed

 7     in civilian clothes lined up along two walls.  I then observed when

 8     Lugar," and there is a second man, I will ask you the name later, "fired

 9     on these men, killing five to seven of them.  I'm not sure if Debeli also

10     participated in the execution of these people, but he was present."

11             Do you remember having said this?

12        A.   First of all, Debeli is not Srecko Radovanovic.  Let us make that

13     clear.  There was another man called Debeli, precisely because he was

14     fat, that's what it means in Serbian; and secondly, I never stated that

15     Lugar fired shots at anyone.  When I was asked whether Lugar -- or,

16     rather, I remember that I said I would not make any comments about my

17     comrade, and that should have been recorded.  I never said I saw Lugar

18     shoot anyone, and I didn't say that I actually saw the shooting.  I never

19     saw any of the dead bodies.

20        Q.   Do you remember a person with a nickname Tralja?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Are you sure that you never said that Lugar and Tralja fired on

23     these men, killing five to seven?

24        A.   I'm sure that I didn't say that they fired their weapons.

25        Q.   But you signed a statement like this, aren't you -- didn't you?

Page 15685

 1        A.   I signed each and every statement that I gave, but I'm sure that

 2     I never said that because that is not true.  Because I know that people

 3     were tried for this incident, and probably you yourself made those

 4     conclusions.  I was not called to testify at that trial, but I know what

 5     I said.  To one of your investigators I actually invoked my right not to

 6     speak about that, and that should have been recorded here.  I said I

 7     didn't want to speak about that.  And once he started probing me about

 8     details, I said, "I'm sorry.  I don't want to discuss it."  Because, once

 9     again, I feel very uncomfortable here mentioning a person who cannot

10     defend himself.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you are saying that

12     there was a trial.  Who was convicted at this trial?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I know -- I saw it

14     on TV, that somebody was tried for the Crkvina crime, but who was

15     convicted?  I really don't know.  I just saw it on TV.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The investigating judge did not

17     ask you to take the stand as a witness?

18             THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ...

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, I would like to show the witness

21     now his two statements he has given and signed and will put some

22     questions to him.

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, this is your -- the first statement you gave in

24     April 2004, obviously.  Could you have a look on this -- sorry.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, the witness did not sign

Page 15686

 1     that statement -- or at least I don't have his signature on the copy that

 2     I have.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The 2004 statement which is the

 4     copy I have bears his signature.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ...

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps you have a copy in English,

 7     but you know that I'm not interested in this revolting language at all.

 8     The Serbian language is not --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The English language is a

10     repulsive language, why do you say that?  That is not very useful.

11     Whatever the case may be, we have a document which is signed by the

12     witness.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Judge, imagine me signing

14     something in Japanese, Chinese, or Arabic.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is why I asked him whether

16     he was conversant in English.  And he said he was; he could read and

17     understand it.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be given the paragraph that

19     you want me to read?

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

21        Q.   No, I don't want to read -- that you read any paragraph.  Could

22     you please have a look on the first page of this statement.  Could you

23     turn the page.  Do you see somewhere your signature?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  Each and every page is signed by me.

25        Q.   Is it the same with the second statement you gave?  Could you

Page 15687

 1     please check.  Is it correct that each page has your signature?

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will have to redact this.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may have made a mistake here.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session.

 7             Registrar, please, we must redact this instantly.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness --

10        A.   Yes, yes, that's my statement.  Yes.

11        Q.   Could you please go to page 18 of your second statement and read

12     the witness acknowledgement there.  It's the last page, I guess, or the

13     page before the last page.

14        A.   The last --

15        Q.   Could you read the witness acknowledgement there.

16        A.   I read the statement in the Serbian language, and it contains

17     everything I said to the best of my knowledge and recollection.  I have

18     given the statement voluntarily, and I am aware that it may be used in

19     legal proceedings before the International Criminal -- yes, I'm sorry.  I

20     apologise.

21             "I have given this statement voluntarily, and I am aware that it

22     may be used in legal proceedings before the international criminal

23     tribunal for the prosecution of persons responsible for serious

24     violations of international law committed in the territory of the former

25     Yugoslavia since 1991 and that I may be called to give evidence in public

Page 15688

 1     before the Tribunal."

 2        Q.   Is there a signature at the right-hand at the bottom of this

 3     acknowledgement?

 4        A.   Yes, it is my signature.

 5        Q.   Can you confirm that you signed, on 20 September 2006, this

 6     statement?

 7        A.   Well, I can't recall the date.  It's probably correct, but that's

 8     the statement that I signed.

 9        Q.   I have an additional question to this.  Weren't you told at the

10     20th of September that this statement is taken for the Seselj case?

11        A.   As far as I can remember, no.  If I may, I was told -- and in

12     each and every one of my statements perhaps there are two or three pages

13     that relate to 1991.  I answered the questions that pertained to 1992,

14     and at that time I had nothing to do with the Radical Party apart from

15     coming across the some volunteers from time to time and apart from the

16     fact that some of the members of my unit were Serbian Radical Party

17     volunteers.  But it is immaterial whether I was told or not that I would

18     be testifying at the Vojislav Seselj trial.  I'm telling you what I know.

19     It doesn't matter in which case I'm testifying.  But I never was told

20     that I would come here to testify in his case.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, can I ask --

22        A.   -- that wouldn't have changed anything.

23        Q.   -- can I ask an additional question.  Please go to paragraph 61

24     of your statement, which is maybe on page 18 of your version, and read

25     the first sentence.

Page 15689

 1        A.   I read the statement in the Serbian language.  It contains

 2     everything that I said to the best of my knowledge and recollection.

 3        Q.   I refer to paragraph 61, which has the number 61 before.  No, you

 4     must go a page before and there are paragraph numbers.

 5        A.   61, page 16.  61:

 6             "Based on my experience as a CRS [as interpreted] volunteer in

 7     both Croatia and Bosnia, the CRS as a party and particularly Seselj were

 8     very popular.  Many SRS volunteers, i.e., volunteers, considered that

 9     sacrifices they were making were part of the fight for the Serbian people

10     and the objective instrumental to the creation of a Greater Serbia.  They

11     firmly believed in the political agenda and rhetoric furnished by

12     Seselj."

13             Again, something that is only partially true.  I was a volunteer

14     of the SRS also in Bosnia; however, that was in 1995 on

15     Majevica Mountain.

16        Q.   But you said in the first sentence that you were an SRS volunteer

17     in both Croatia and Bosnia; isn't that true?

18        A.   Correct, and I was.  I never denied that.  But I was a volunteer

19     of the SRS in 1995, in -- on Mount Majevica.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Can you please tell us if you have given

21     an additional statement to other parties of this trial?

22        A.   What statements?

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you put your question

24     again slower, Mr. Mussemeyer.

25             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I want to know from the witness if he gave

Page 15690

 1     another statement to the Defence in December 2007.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I think we might go into closed session if he

 4     wants to develop or explain us how it came to this.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me consult with my fellow

 6     Judges.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You can ask your

 9     question for 2007.

10             Are we in private session?  Mr. Registrar, could we move into

11     private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15691

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe you have four minutes

11     left.

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I request orally that the two statements the

13     witness gave to the OTP on 22nd of April, 2004, and

14     20 of September, 2006, are admitted into evidence.  The witness departed

15     substantially in many details from his former statement, and I think the

16     statement -- the facts he described in the OTP statements are the truth

17     and what he told us today for many details I cannot believe it.  This is

18     my -- the end of my cross -- of my examination-in-chief.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I absolutely contest that.  I

20     object.  It is impossible for this to be tendered into evidence.

21     Rule 92 quinquies cannot be applied in my proceedings because it was

22     adopted late last year.  And you know what my position is on that issue.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you know, Mr. Seselj, the

24     Trial Chamber will rule after the cross-examination.  So as of now we do

25     not rule on anything.  We have 15 minutes left.  You may start with your

Page 15692

 1     cross-examination because we're going to be running late.  As you know,

 2     we have another witness scheduled for tomorrow.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Sorry, before Mr. Seselj can start, I have a

 5     short observation.  Like usual, we got his documents only at the last

 6     break.  They are all in B/C/S.  And there is no reason that he could

 7     have [sic] tendered this before because they come from 1991 and also some

 8     of them from 2008.  So he could have provided these documents much

 9     earlier, that we could at least prepare for the cross-examination.  Thank

10     you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, as always Mr. Mussemeyer

12     doesn't know what he's talking about.  The third document that you

13     received is a photocopy of the entire issue of the paper "Great Serbia"

14     dating back from 1991.  I know with certainty that the OTP photocopied

15     all of the issues of Greater Serbia in the National Library of Serbia and

16     that they have those at their disposal.  What I have provided today is

17     just by way of advising the OTP that I'm going to use it, and they have

18     everything at their disposal, not only this issue but all the issues of

19     that newspaper.

20             Second of all, there are two statements that I'm going to use in

21     cross-examination.  I'm not going to tender them.  Please don't make me

22     waste time on that.  Let me start my cross-examination.  If we are left

23     with some time tomorrow after the second witness, then you can present

24     procedural objections and open procedural issues.  Let me not do that

25     today.  When we had the last witness or the witness before that, I was

Page 15693

 1     denied one part of the time for my cross-examination because of the

 2     procedural questions.  I would like to start.

 3             May I, please?

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, Mr. VS-1058, do you have your 2004

 7     statement before you in English?  In English, please.  The one that you

 8     signed.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   In English?

11        A.   In English.

12        Q.   Could you please turn to page 12.

13             Have you got it?

14        A.   Please bear with me just for a moment.  I've got it.

15        Q.   Is that in English as well?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Could you please read paragraph 46.  Could you please read it in

18     English, and I would kindly ask the interpreter to -- not to interpret

19     that paragraph into either Serbian or French.  We would like -- I would

20     like the Judges to hear how you read English.

21        A.   46?

22        Q.   Yes, 46.  Could you please read it in English.  On page 12, that

23     is.

24        A.   46 is on page 9.

25        Q.   It may be on page 9 in the English version.  If it is, please

Page 15694

 1     read it in English.

 2        A.   Just a moment, please.

 3             [In English] "Sometime in early May 1992 I was present in Crkvina

 4     when five to seven men were executed."

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I must say that the witness had

 6     told us that he understood English well, but he had some problem speaking

 7     English, probably pronouncing and reading English.  We're not going to

 8     ask this witness to pass an English exam.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to translate what

10     I've just read?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you don't allow me this

12     question, I would kindly ask you, Mrs. Lattanzi, and I will continue my

13     cross-examination.

14             MR. MARCUSSEN: [Previous translation continues] ...

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You did not put any question,

16     Mr. Seselj.  How could I tell you that you should not put any question to

17     witness?  You didn't put any question to him.  You only asked him to read

18     out loud something in English, part of his statement.  Now, what's the

19     question?  Put the question, and we'll see.  We want a question.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can see that you're curious what

21     the question was going to be.  I am not going to put it to the witness

22     because you didn't allow the witness to read the whole paragraph, so I'm

23     going to deny you the pleasure of satisfying your curiosity.  I'm not

24     going to ask the question.  That's how I decided I'm going to ask another

25     question.

Page 15695

 1             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Excuse me, before we move on, the record is

 2     incomplete because the witness read out a sentence from the statement.

 3     The sentence is correctly transcribed, but the record does not reflect

 4     how the witness actually read out the statement.  And it should be put on

 5     record that the witness read out the sentence correctly and without

 6     hesitation.  And he has actually show that he is fully capable of reading

 7     and understanding English.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it is true that the

 9     witness read the paragraph in English, seemingly without any problems.

10             Proceed.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, the paragraph has not

12     been read out.  Only one sentence has been read out in a rather poor

13     English.  The paragraph has not been read out.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

15     continues] ... right.  His English is probably not as good as yours, for

16     sure, but still --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Much worse than mine.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He read the beginning of this

19     paragraph.  You're right.  He only read the beginning of the paragraph.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And my English, although better

21     than his, is not good enough for me to be able to use it in these

22     proceedings.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. VS-1058, let's go back to the year 1991.  You remember that

25     at that time Franjo Tudjman came into power in Croatia; is that correct?

Page 15696

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did Tudjman revive all the Ustasha symbols?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did Ustasha emigrants start to come back in droves to Croatia?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Was that the time of the first initial persecutions of the

 7     Serbian population?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Were Serbs fired if they did not sign the statement of loyalty to

10     the regime of Tudjman at the time?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did refugees from Croatian cities start coming to Serbia?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did Croatian policemen start threatening village population,

15     Serb population, across the Croatia?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Did that provoke the spontaneous resistance of Serbian population

18     where they were a majority?

19        A.   Yes, we've already mentioned that.

20        Q.   Did that happen across the Dalmatia, Lika, Kordun, Banja,

21     western Slavonia, eastern Slavonia, and Baranja?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did the new Croatian authorities start encircled the JNA

24     garrisons --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please try to slow

Page 15697

 1     down.  The interpreters are raising the white flag.  They're out of

 2     breath.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'll slow down.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you remember that Tudjman's regime organised wide actions to

 6     block JNA barracks?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did Tudjman announce that there would be a cessation of Croatia

 9     from Yugoslavia?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did that disturb the Serb population in the Croatian federal

12     unit?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did the Serbs start organising themselves into village guards in

15     order to protect their homes from attacks by Croatian paramilitary

16     formations?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did Tudjman himself organise the biggest paramilitary formation

19     that he called the Croatian guards?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did he carry out a review of that unit in Zagreb?

22        A.   Yes, it was in the Dinamo stadium.

23        Q.   Was that unit a legal unit from the aspect of the then-prevailing

24     laws in Yugoslavia?

25        A.   No.

Page 15698

 1        Q.   Did he formally join that unit to his police?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did the first killings of Serb civilians happen because Serbs

 4     considered them unsuitable for their future state?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You heard that Serbian villages in eastern Slavonia started

 7     organising barricades at the entrances and that they started keeping

 8     guards around-the-clock?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   There was -- certain negotiations took place between local Serbs

11     and the Croatian authorities at the time, allegedly with a view to

12     calming down the boiling situation?

13        A.   As far as I remember, yes, that was mentioned on TV.

14        Q.   Do you know that the Serbian Radical Party in April 1991

15     organised the first group of volunteers and sent it to Borovo Selo that

16     was under threat at the time?

17        A.   I'm not sure.  I believe so.  I believe I know that.

18        Q.   Do you remember that they, together with the locals, held watches

19     at the access roads?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you know that an agreement was reached with the Croatian

22     authorities that the Croatian authorities would not send police units

23     into the Serb villages and that the Serbs would lift the roadblocks from

24     the access roads?

25        A.   Well, I'm not sure that I recall all that, but I think that it

Page 15699

 1     did occur like that.

 2        Q.   And do you remember that the Croatian police, together with the

 3     armed civilians, including some Kurds, entered Borovo Selo on buses after

 4     the roadblocks were lifted?

 5        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 6        Q.   Do you remember that the Croatian police officers were the first

 7     to open fire and that at the spot in the centre of the village they

 8     killed Vojislav Milic, who was not armed?

 9        A.   Well, I was not present there, but I remember that, yes.  I was

10     not present, so I don't know some of the details that you're asking me

11     about.  I can't really give you an answer.  I was not there.

12        Q.   But all the media reported that the volunteers of the

13     Serbian Radical Party who were billeted in the culture hall then grabbed

14     their weapons and returned fire on the Croatian police officers.  You

15     have to recall that?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   And you remember that a handful of our volunteers managed to

18     repel the attack by more than a hundred Croatian policemen?

19        A.   Yes, I remember that.

20        Q.   The population of Borovo Selo was in the field.  They were

21     tending to their fields.  It was the corn season?

22        A.   Well, I'm not from the rural area, so I don't know.

23        Q.   And when the villagers heard the gun-fire, they grabbed weapons,

24     offered resistance, and then the Croats started demanding an intervention

25     of the JNA, crying and moaning about it.  Did all the media report that

Page 15700

 1     in Yugoslavia?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And then a tank unit of the JNA came in to put a stop to the

 4     clash.  Serbs stopped fighting.  The JNA helped the Croats pull out their

 5     wounded and killed.  Do you remember that?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.  It was on TV.

 7        Q.   After that, the Serbian Radical Party started sending its

 8     volunteers to a number of Serb villages in eastern Slavonia en masse; is

 9     that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   The role of those volunteers was exclusively to defend the Serb

12     villages; am I right?

13        A.   Yes, to keep watch and to assist the villagers and the

14     Territorial Defence.

15        Q.   The JNA at the time was not involved in the conflict?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You were there as a volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party when

18     you first went to the front?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Together with the group of volunteers that you were part of, you

21     went to Milutina Bojica Street in Belgrade yourself and you stated that

22     in your statements?

23        A.   Yes, I think that that's the street name.

24        Q.   You went to the headquarters of the Serbian Radical Party; is

25     that correct?

Page 15701

 1        A.   Well, I don't know whether this was the headquarters of the

 2     Serbian Radical Party or whether it was just a local chapter of the

 3     party, but it was the Serbian Radical Party.

 4        Q.   Since at that time the state did not provide premises for the

 5     opposition parties to ensure their normal work, the Serbian Radical Party

 6     was forced to rent an apartment in Milutina Bojica Street and to have its

 7     headquarters there.  You are not aware of that, are you?

 8        A.   No -- well, I know that it had to do with the

 9     Serbian Radical Party.  There was an office there.  I don't know whether

10     it was the central office or a branch office.

11        Q.   Yes.  But this was an office where I went to every day to do my

12     day-to-day business in the party.

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I think we will

15     stop now because I have to give a few instructions to this witness.

16             Witness, you're now in the hands of justice because you take a

17     solemn declaration.  Come back tomorrow at 2.15, but up until now you're

18     not supposed to contact anyone.

19             Furthermore, I would like to know whether you have a cell phone

20     with you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have it with me.  It's

22     in the witness room.  I do have my mobile phone.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me give you a piece of

24     advice.  Do not answer your cell phone if it rings because you're not

25     supposed to contact anyone until tomorrow.  And tomorrow once your

Page 15702

 1     testimony is over, you can call whoever you want.  But up until now

 2     please stay quiet and avoid any problems.  Do you understand me?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, but I cannot use

 4     it because my network is useless here.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You can't use it.

 6     Good news.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I only use it as an alarm

 8     clock.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you can use it as an

10     alarm clock.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I use the two minutes left to

12     complete this topic so that we don't waste any time.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

14     continues] ...

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At page 37 of the newspaper,

16     everybody can see that, the Judges and the Prosecution.  There is a

17     communique.  The headquarters of the Serbian Radical Party has been moved

18     from Milutina Bojica Street number 2 to Marsala Street number 8, and the

19     new telephone number of the party is such and such.

20             So could you please look; that's at page 37 of the photocopy that

21     I provided to you.

22             So in July, late July or maybe -- well, it's a July issue.  By

23     July we left Milutina Bojica Street because we finally got a premises

24     from the state in Marsala Birjuzova Street number 58, it was a local

25     commune office, and then we went to the Ohridska Street, the famous

Page 15703

 1     Ohridska street.  So no party had official premises from the authorities.

 2     We all had to rent private accommodation.  Once we were granted premises

 3     by the state, we left this apartment in Milutina Bojica Street.  I think

 4     that's evidence enough for you so that the Prosecution can no longer be

 5     dealing with some mysterious apartments in Milutina Bojica Street.  That

 6     used to be the headquarters of the Serbian Radical Party, and we moved

 7     out of it in July.

 8             So we can complete this topic now, and then I will address other

 9     issues tomorrow.  That was the reason why I asked all those questions

10     which might have seemed strange at the time.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12             Witness, we will resume tomorrow at 2.15.  I wish you all a

13     pleasant evening.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day of

16                           March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.