1 Wednesday, 10 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please
7 call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours.
9 This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar. This is
11 Wednesday, and I welcome all the representatives from the OTP and
12 Mr. Seselj as well, of course, as our witness.
13 Mr. Seselj, you have the floor for your cross-examination.
14 WITNESS: WITNESS VS-1058 [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj: [Continued]
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. VS-1058, yesterday we stated together and we
18 established why the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party were sent to
19 Eastern Slavonia. You confirmed that the main and the only reason was to
20 defend the threat on Serbian villages; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. However, I expect from you to know, like the whole of Serbia
23 knows, that I personally and the Serbian Radical Party that I belonged to
24 before the war, during the war, and after the war that we advocated the
25 ideology of a Greater Serbia; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. However, it would be ridiculous to go to Sodolovci, or to
3 Ernestinovo, Laslovo, or Tenja, or Borovo Selo, and to create a Greater
4 Serbia there; wouldn't that be ridiculous?
5 A. I don't think I understood your question properly.
6 Q. In order to create a Greater Serbia, one would have to encompass
7 the entire area inhabited by Serbs, the Orthodox Serbs, Muslim Serbs, and
8 Catholic Serbs, and not only just a few villages in the eastern part of
9 Slavonia where we sent volunteers before the JNA entered the war. Did
10 you hear of any other volunteers being sent anywhere else but Eastern
11 Slavonia before 1991?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Are you aware that we indeed are proponents of a Greater Serbia,
14 my party, the Serbian Radical Party, and myself? Do you have any doubts
15 about it that?
16 A. If you say so, in principle I am not interested in politics. I
17 am -- I don't engage in politics.
18 Q. However, nobody told you in Belgrade that you were being sent to
19 fight for a Greater Serbia. You went and you had been told that you were
20 being sent to defend the Serbian villages threatened by the newly
21 established Ustasha government in Croatia?
22 A. Yes, that's correct. If anybody had told me that that was the
23 idea, I would not have gone.
24 Q. Well, nobody told you to do that, and we have established that.
25 And now you saw in your statement in several places and you denied the
1 fact that the Prosecutor who typed the statement on your behalf and you
2 signed it, he insisted on a Greater Serbia and my alleged speeches to
3 volunteers. Wouldn't it be ridiculous to say that if about ten of you
4 were sitting in a room that I entered that room and gave a speech about a
5 Greater Serbia
6 A. You are right there, but I repeat I did not hear you giving a
7 speech. I never heard you say something like that to me.
8 Q. So you completely deny what is contained in your statement and
9 concerns my speech about a Greater Serbia?
10 A. That part and the part where you are mentioned as my leader. Let
11 me just explain one thing. I don't want the Trial Chamber or anybody
12 else to think that I lie or that I'm here to change my statements, but
13 yesterday we detected four mistakes -- actually, I detected just two. I
14 was hardly waiting to be sent home, and I may have missed the other two
15 mistakes. I didn't pay any -- much attention. If I had seen them, then
16 I would have corrected the Prosecutor there and then, but I omitted to do
18 Q. It is my conviction that you presented the facts, that you were
19 very precise when you provided your statement, and that you were a
20 reliable person. There's not much for me to deny with regard to the
21 facts that you presented. But your first interview lasted two days; is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. [No interpretation]
25 A. Let's avoid any mistakes. It was not two days in a row.
1 Q. It says here on the 21st and 22nd April, 2004?
2 A. I believe that there was one day break between the two days, but
3 I'm not sure.
4 Q. I am more inclined to believe you than the OTP, but it says here
5 21 and 22 April.
6 A. You mean 2004? In that case it's possible.
7 Q. And on the -- at the end of day two you were given the statement
8 in English?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you read that statement?
11 A. Yes, I read it.
12 Q. And you speak enough English to be able to maintain a
13 communication? That's what I concluded.
14 A. Yes, I can communicate to a certain extent, but I can read much
15 better. I work with computers and I need English for that. But what I'm
16 saying is that I omitted that mistake.
17 Q. But did you read everything attentively, every page?
18 A. No, I was hardly waiting to be sent home.
19 Q. So you just glanced and skimmed through the statement and then
20 you signed it?
21 A. I believe that I corrected one or two mistakes, I'm not sure.
22 And then that was that.
23 Q. But nobody actually read the Serbian translation back to you?
24 A. As far as I remember, no.
25 Q. [No interpretation]
1 A. That was six years ago, so please do not --
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] Could you please slow down,
3 Mr. Witness and Mr. Seselj. You have to slow down. It's almost
4 impossible for the interpreters to follow you. You're much too fast.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] And please make a break between
7 the question and the answer. Thank you.
8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. So when the statement was over, it was given to you to read in
10 English, which is not your mother tongue, and you signed it without
11 reading the Serbian translation; is that correct?
12 A. I can't be sure that -- it is possible that I also saw the
13 Serbian translation. It was six years ago, so I can't remember.
14 Q. So if it is possible that you saw the Serbian translation, I'm
15 sure that nobody actually read the translation to you out loud?
16 A. I didn't read it myself.
17 Q. And here the OTP has deceived you and told you that you actually
18 confirmed that the statement had been read back to you in the Serbian
19 language, and you do not remember at all that the statement was read to
20 you in the Serbian language in 2004?
21 A. As I've just told you, it was six years ago. I really can't
23 Q. Very well. And then you were again called on 2006 and you were
24 invited to come for just one day?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And when you spoke with Dan Saxon and Marie Costello, how long
2 did your conversation last on that occasion?
3 A. I can't be sure. Maybe a couple of hours, two hours. Or perhaps
4 three, I'm not sure. Or maybe even longer. I really can't remember.
5 Q. [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Seselj's microphone is not on.
7 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I will repeat my question. Did -- on the second occasion when
9 you met with the OTP, did you read the statement yourself or was the
10 statement interpreted to you by the Prosecutors? Did they read the
11 statement to you?
12 A. I believe that I read the statement, and we spoke about a few
13 issues. I'm not sure. I can't remember, I'm telling you. I can't
14 remember those interviews. I virtually forgot all about them until my
15 memory was jogged here.
16 Q. So if you don't remember, I will no longer insist on those
17 interviews. There's no need for that.
18 The first time you came to Belgrade
19 Eastern Slavonia
20 Prigrevica was full. You spent a couple of days -- you slept in the
21 party premises, and then you returned to Smederevo?
22 A. On the first occasion, I believe that I stayed two days.
23 Q. And the next time you were invited to come, you came with your
24 own weapons; it was a German make, Smajser, automatic weapon, as far as I
25 could understand?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. It was a trophy from the Second World War?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When you arrived at the headquarters of the party, did they tell
5 you that you couldn't go to the bus with that automatic rifle but that
6 somebody would bring that automatic rifle subsequently to you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did they explain to you that you could not take the weapon on to
9 the bus because the police might stop you and then that would be a
10 problem because there would be a lot of questions about where you were
11 going and why you were armed?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you know that at the time we sent volunteers hiding that fact
14 from the police of Serbia
15 A. Yes, we were told that.
16 Q. So that means that you travelled on the bus without any uniforms,
17 without any weapons, and the fact was hidden from the police?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then you arrived in Prigrevica. On the way, the bus took
20 some scenic routes to avoid being noticed?
21 A. Yes. The journey was long, but I didn't notice that fact because
22 I was not familiar with the route.
23 Q. You arrived in Prigrevica in an abandoned farm, and that was the
24 centre for the training of volunteers; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you stayed for two weeks in training?
2 A. Yes, I believe so.
3 Q. And the training was enough for you to jog your memory about what
4 you had learned in the army because all of you had been in compulsory
5 military training before the war?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And in Prigrevica you trained with very old weapons; correct?
8 A. Yes, those were old M-48 rifles.
9 Q. That's the old rifle that had been used by the JNA but was
10 withdrawn from use?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was there any other old weapons that were used there?
13 A. No, I don't think so. I can't remember.
14 Q. In one place in your statement you say that a general came to
15 that centre and Milan Paroski, the two of them came to the centre for
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Does it mean that in addition to members of the
19 Serbian Radical Party in Prigrevica there were members of other parties
20 as well?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you hear of Jovo Ostojic; does the name ring a bell?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was he your boss in that training centre in Prigrevica?
25 A. He was a local as far as I could tell, and he assisted. He took
1 care of the supplies, the food.
2 Q. He was in charge for -- together with the instructors?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know that Jovo Ostojic was at the time a member of the
5 Serbian Democratic Party for Serbia
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you hear that maybe a year later he became a member of the
8 Serbian Radical Party and became an MP?
9 A. I heard his name mentioned on TV several times. I saw him on a
10 few occasions, but I did not put two and two together.
11 Q. Did you hear that because of the war merits I proclaimed him the
12 Serbian Chetnik Vojvoda?
13 A. I heard that. I didn't know if it was true.
14 Q. It was true, and I'm very proud of that because he deserves that
16 Did you see members of the Serbian Renewal Movement, Paroski, the
17 Serbian National Renewal, and some other parties?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. There were members of the Serbian Renewal Movement for a while
20 until Vuk Draskovic decided to establish his own paramilitary formation,
21 Serbian card [as interpreted], and then he stopped sending volunteers?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you remember that Draskovic appointed the worst criminals from
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know that we, representatives of different opposition
2 parties, previously made an agreement with the associations of -- the
3 Association of Serbs from Croatia
4 train them in that centre in Prigrevica?
5 A. I don't know. Believe me, I wasn't -- was not aware of that.
6 Q. You said that there were approximately 70 per cent members of the
7 Serbian Radical Party and some 30 per cent of all the others, if I
8 remember your statement correctly?
9 A. To be honest, I didn't count heads. It is possible that most of
10 us were Radicals, but I can't be sure. I can't tell you exactly.
11 Q. And the general that came to visit you, you didn't know his name?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And if I tell you that that was the famous partisan general,
14 Dusan Pekic, the secretary or the president of the lines of the veterans
15 of the liberation war for Yugoslavia
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So now I just reminded you that there was Dusan Pekic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember that General Dusan Pekic was a number one man in
20 the association of Serbs from Croatia
21 provinces and sending volunteers?
22 A. I didn't know that.
23 Q. Did you know that General Dusan Pekic took from the military
24 storehouses all the weapons that the JNA had planned to destroy and
25 provided them to you?
1 A. I heard something about it. I'm not quite sure how true that is.
2 Q. And that is how the glorious partisan general Dusan Pekic and I,
3 the nascent, the just-proclaimed Chetnik Vojvoda, found ourselves in a
4 joint struggle, working on the reconciliation -- the national
5 reconciliation of the Chetniks and the Partisans. Is this symbolic to
6 you or is it not?
7 A. It could be.
8 Q. Do you know that the JNA, a year before that, took the weapons of
9 all the Territorial Defences of the republics and provinces and put them
10 in its depots?
11 A. That is something I found out later.
12 Q. Do you know that there were many obsolete pieces of weaponry
13 there, carbines, 48; Thompson, American automatic rifles; and Spagin, the
14 Russian type of automatic rifles; M-56s, and similar obsolete pieces of
16 A. That -- those weapons were distributed to the volunteers as the
17 primary type of weapon because there was no other type at that time.
18 Q. This was distributed to you at the time when the JNA was not yet
19 participating in combat?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But we provided those weapons next to General Dusan Pekic. I
22 never wanted to mention his name in public and here at the Tribunal while
23 General Pekic was alive. Did you ever hear me mention his name?
24 A. To be sincere, I did not follow the proceedings of this Tribunal.
25 Q. General Pekic died two years ago, and now I can candidly speak
1 about this without inflicting any harm on him. Because this
2 Western regime can no longer arrest him. That is obvious, is it not?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Tell me, when you were transferred to the Serbian villages in
5 Eastern Slavonia
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Precisely of the type that I referred to?
8 A. Yes, the Spagins, the Thompsons, and the M-56s, the Yugoslav
9 butts, as they were called.
10 Q. Do you remember that I often told journalists who were always
11 talking me that we got those weapons from abroad through Hungary?
12 A. I can't remember. I was already there. We did not watch much TV
13 at the time.
14 Q. And when Slobodan Milosevic decided to accept the Vance-Owen Plan
15 and when we severely clashed with his regime, do you remember me telling
16 that it was him and his police who gave us the weapons because I wanted
17 to heckle him as much as possible?
18 A. I do not remember, believe me.
19 Q. As regards this secret where we got our weapons and how
20 Dusan Pekic provided the armaments for us is something that I never told
21 anybody, but now I can say it in public because this is a historic fact.
22 And there was quite a lot of weaponry, was it not so?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Although it was obsolete?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. On the other hand, the Croats had the most sophisticated
2 weaponry; is that true?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you remember me saying at a press conference, it was on TV,
5 how I shot an anti-tank rocket-thrower, the Hamdas [phoen] type, of
6 German manufacture, which was the most modern anti-tank weapon at the
8 A. I cannot remember that now.
9 Q. This was seised by volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party in
10 battles around Mirkovci, Kosta Carina, later, combatants there, have you
11 heard about him?
12 A. No, I have heard about him, but I never met him.
13 Q. Okay we have clarified that. Now, you came to those villages,
14 you said what villages those were, and there you were assigned to
15 Territorial Defence units; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Under the command of the local TO commanders and the more
18 prominent volunteers themselves were appointed commanders or "komandirs"
19 of certain units up to company level?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Srecko Radovanovic was one of those who were appointed to such a
22 post --
23 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not on.
24 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Some ranks were referred to that volunteers had. Do you know
1 anything about this?
2 A. As far as I know, from the beginning we actually addressed one
3 another by ranks. You would be either a reserve commanding officer or
4 junior lieutenant, and such.
5 Q. Yesterday I gave you some three documents. I hope that you still
6 have them. Or have they taken them from you? I would like to use again
7 the Greater Serbia paper from July 2 -- 1997.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
9 page 7.
10 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
11 Q. This is a paper of the Serbian Radical Party and the
12 Serbian Chetnik Movement. At that time actually it was only of the
13 Serbian Chetnik Movement. Can you see the front page?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Later this became the paper of the Serbian Radical Party. Now I
16 should like to ask you to turn to page 7. This is a big feature story
17 from Ravna Gora, where there was a celebration to mark the uprising day
18 which was -- the uprising which was initiated in 1941 by the glorious
19 general Draza Mihajlovic; you have heard of him?
20 A. Yes. What page did you say I should look at?
21 Q. Page 7. There at Ravna Gora was a big celebration where some
22 10.000 people had assembled. I delivered a passionate patriotic speech
23 there, and then a proclamation of Vojvoda Momcilo Djujic was read out,
24 which had been sent from America
25 page 7 this proclamation starts with the words, "Brothers, Serbs,
1 sisters, Serbian women, Serbian chosen people ..."
2 Did you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, go to page 8. Here you see a photograph of Vojvoda -- of
5 Duke Momcilo Djujic, the proclamation continues. And this is marked in
6 handwriting as page 11, but it should be page 9 in the newspaper. Have
7 you found it?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. All right. Towards the end of the first column, the second
10 paragraph from the top, Vojvoda Djujic is speaking about the victory of
11 the Serbian Chetniks in Borovo Selo and says in this paragraph --
12 actually, can you read it for yourself or shall I read it?
13 A. It will be easier if you read it. I'm not sure I found it.
14 Q. "For the success and courage demonstrated, I have decorated and
15 promoted to the rank of Major Mr. Todosijevic, commander of Chetnik
16 platoon; Mr. Denis Bareta, deputy commander to the rank of captain; and
17 all the other courageous Chetnik combatants I have promoted to officer
18 rank. The Serbian nation is grateful to them, and their names will
19 remain inscribed in the glorious history of the Serbian Chetnik
21 Did I read it correctly?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is there a problem?
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I waited a moment so you could
25 understand that there is -- it takes time before what you say is
1 translated. You must understand that. And we can't follow. If you
2 think that it's no problem for everyone not to follow, fine, go on. But
3 I can tell you that I as a Judge cannot follow because the interpreters
4 are panting. They just can't catch up with you. You are going much too
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mrs. Lattanzi, I would really like
7 you and your colleagues to follow me, but I have so much to say, so much
8 information that I would like to present here, so I speed up quite
9 unconsciously. I will try and avoid that, but it will again happen. I
10 know myself only too well. What can I do? In any case, I'll try and
11 slow down.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, please wait before you
13 answer. At least your answers are shorter than the questions. So,
14 Witness, please wait a while before you start answering. So wait for
15 Mr. Seselj to be finished with his question, then wait a little while,
16 and then we can have your answer; otherwise, we cannot hear your answer
17 and we can't follow.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
19 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. The proclamation ends there and then Duke Djujic signs his name
21 as the president of the dukedom council and the president of the Chetnik
22 Movement in the free world; you see that at the end?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And now you see that there were certain occasions when ranks were
25 distributed and that that was done by Duke Momcilo Djujic; however, those
1 ranks were assigned only up to September 1991, until the moment when we
2 reached an agreement about the inclusion of the volunteers of the
3 Serbian Radical Party directly into the units of the
4 Yugoslav People's Army. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When the Yugoslav People's Army engaged in combat and we joined
7 them, then their rules applied to all of us; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I don't remember a single case of anybody having been given a
10 rank outside of the JNA after September 1991. There may have been such
11 occasions, but I don't remember any such occasions, do you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You do or you don't?
14 A. No, no, no.
15 Q. Very well. You automatically said "yes," so -- anyway.
16 We have resolved this issue. Do you know that sometime in 1991
17 there was a clash between myself and Duke Djujic, that the two of us
19 A. At that time, I was in a theatre of war, so --
20 Q. Did you hear that the things that did not function as they should
21 have, even later?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. If I told you that we clashed because Duke Momcilo Djujic had
24 sent me Dr. Milos Prica as my main political advisor and after my first
25 contact with Dr. Prica I realised that he wanted me to provoke a civil
1 war in Serbia
2 reason why I clashed with Djujic. Do you know that? Does that tell you
3 anything? Does this sound like a credible explanation for my clash with
4 Duke Djujic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you hear that after that Duke Djujic sent the same person,
7 Milos Prica from America
8 Biljana Plavsic to become a traitor of the Serbian people; does that mean
9 anything to you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know that the same Milos Prica is the ambassador of Bosnia
12 and Herzegovina
13 A. No, I didn't know that.
14 Q. Very well. We have said that for the Trial Chamber, the general
15 public who follow the trial, and the OTP. Now they know.
16 Okay, you were now in Eastern Slavonia, the combat is ongoing,
17 and fighting stops in November; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. A large number of volunteers returned after that to Serbia
20 that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You, Srecko Radovanovic, and a certain number of others who had
23 made your name there as capable men found jobs in the police as far as I
24 understand; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. We sent volunteers to defend the Serbian autonomous province,
2 Eastern Slavonia
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In addition to that, in the territory of the Croatian federal
5 unit, there was the Serbian Autonomous Province of Western Slavonia and
6 Krajina; is that right?
7 A. Yes, you're right.
8 Q. The three Serbian autonomous provinces were established in order
9 to prevent Croatian separatism; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the Serbs insisted on the preservation of those autonomous --
12 for the future in order to prevent any future Croatian separatist
13 attempts; is that correct?
14 However, despite of that, after the Vance Plan, Croatia was
15 recognised as an independent state; then the Serbs decided to unite those
16 three autonomous provinces into the Republic of Serbian Krajina
17 they concluded if Croatia
18 secede from Croatia
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It was only after the end of combat and fighting and after the
21 implementation of the Vance-Owen Plan and after the international
22 recognition of the independence of the Croatian state, the
23 Republic of Serbian Krajina was established, it was only then; am I
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The establishment of the Serbian Republic of Serbian Krajina
2 the consequence of Croatian separatism and not something that preceded
3 Croatian separatism; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So that move was imposed upon the Serbian people; it was not
6 their struggle for a Greater Serbia; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Since you worked as a police officer for a time, you were
9 selected as the best to go for training in Pajzos; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. [Microphone not activated]
12 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not on.
13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
14 Q. I remember that Srecko Radovanovic called me on the telephone and
15 consulted me, asking me whether to go or not, and I told him to make his
16 own decision. I did not have anything against it. It was the JNA who
17 wanted you, it is to your honour, but you have to decide yourself. You
18 didn't consult anybody. You accepted the invitation immediately; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When you worked as a policeman in Eastern Slavonia, you carried
22 police ID cards, you were professional policemen?
23 A. Yes, and we were paid by the police.
24 Q. When you arrived in Pajzos, did you keep the police documentation
25 of the Serbian Republic
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were you given some other IDs?
3 A. Yes, later.
4 Q. What IDs were you given?
5 A. We were given Serbian IDs.
6 Q. From Serbia
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you have that ID? Did you keep it?
9 A. No, I returned it when I was wounded.
10 Q. I find it very strange that you were provided with IDs of the
11 Republic of Serbia
12 A. In Vojvodina.
13 Q. I have to correct you. Pajzos is near Ilok in the
14 Republic of Serbian
15 Croatian occupation. It was never in Vojvodina.
16 A. I apologise. I was absolutely convinced that it was in
18 Q. Pajzos is in Ilok in the Republic of Serbian Krajina, which is
19 currently the territory under Croatian control?
20 A. I know that it is near Ilok, but I thought it was Vojvodina. I
21 was there only once for those few days.
22 Q. But then maybe this is a mistake. How come you were provided
23 with Serbian mistake -- with Serbian ID in Pajzos?
24 A. No, it's not a mistake.
25 Q. When you left for Pajzos to go to Bosanski Samac, did you have
1 military booklets?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And your participation in the fighting in Samac, was that
4 recorded in your military booklet?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So how could you join the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA if you
7 didn't have a military booklet?
8 A. Can I explain, please?
9 Q. Go ahead.
10 A. Whoever had a military booklet and the IDs that we had been
11 provided with before our departure to Bosnia, we had to return all those
12 and we received only platelets with ID numbers, like tags with ID
13 numbers, and our first and family names.
14 Q. Did you ever hear of Ilija Vuckovic, also known as Rambo?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was he your commander in Pajzos?
17 A. He was in Ilok --
18 Q. Hold on. He was the commander of the centre in Pajzos, near
20 A. Yes, but his residence was in Ilok. He was the commander of both
22 Q. Yesterday you said that Franko Simatovic, Frenki, had been your
24 A. Frenki was his commander. This one was the commander of the
25 training centre, not my immediate superior.
1 Q. You perhaps do not know that I'm in the same unit with
2 Franko Simatovic here in the Detention Unit?
3 A. No.
4 Q. He tells me that in Pajzos he was in Tito's villa in a radio
5 interception centre.
6 A. Yes, he had his centre in Tito's villa, and why he was there is
7 something I don't know.
8 Q. But you do know where the villa -- Tito's villa is?
9 A. Yes, I do. That is the vineyard. It has houses, little sheds
10 for labourers, where we were housed when we were there for training.
11 Q. Was this villa separated from your training centre?
12 A. Yes, some 100 or 200 metres uphill.
13 Q. And he says that he met Srecko Radovanovic several times there,
14 but they did not have any contacts along the line superior/subordinate?
15 A. I do not know what he says.
16 Q. Let us see what Ilija Vuckovic says. He made a very short
17 statement. This is document number one, I gave it to you yesterday. Can
18 we have the usher give you that document, please, document number one.
19 THE ACCUSED: Would you be so kind as to give him document number
20 one. Not mine, not mine.
21 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Shall we look at it together, just the first two paragraphs of
23 this statement. Have you gotten the statement?
24 A. Yes, I have received it.
25 Q. Ilija Vuckovic called Rambo says:
1 "I was the operational commander of the unit for special purposes
2 of the MUP of the Republic of Serbian
3 So this is a special purpose unit of the Republic
4 of Serbian Krajina. Do you find anything odd there?
5 "In the period from 1991 to the -- to March 1992, the seat of my
6 unit was in Pajzos near Ilok in the Republic of Serbian Krajina."
7 Did you see that paragraph?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is there anything strange there?
10 A. I don't know what exactly you are referring to.
11 Q. Do you know that he was the operational commander of the special
12 purpose unit of the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina in Pajzos near
13 Ilok at that time?
14 A. As far as I knew things, he was the operational commander of the
15 training centre, of that camp; as for other things, I really don't know,
16 believe me.
17 Q. All right. In the second paragraph he says:
18 "I remember that in March 1992 a group arrived for specialised
19 training with members of the police of the Republic of Serbian Krajina
20 This group included Srecko Radovanovic, whom we called the fat one,
21 Debeli. It did not have any party emblems and it was not a party unit
22 because it consisted of members of different parties, and I did not ask
23 anyone nor ask anyone to declare themselves as to party affiliation. The
24 training was organised by the JNA, and I know that this group, having
25 completed their training which was I believe in the first half of
1 April 1992
2 helicopters to Bosanski Samac."
3 Are these facts true?
4 A. Yes, but I think that this was the beginning of April. In the
5 middle of April, on the 17th of April, Bosanski Samac was already taken.
6 Q. That is exactly what I say, in the first half of April.
7 A. I apologise.
8 Q. Is everything that he says correct? You arrived in Samac by JNA
9 helicopters and you joined the 17th Tactical Group under the command of
10 Lieutenant-Colonel Stevo Nikolic, also known as Kriger; is that correct?
11 A. I do not remember the name, and the surname I do remember the
13 Q. The nickname was Kriger --
14 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'm sorry, we now have a problem arising from the
15 fact that we do not have an English version of the document that the
16 accused is reading. But the accused put a proposition to the witness
17 from this statement that he is now reading from, and the way the accused
18 read out the statement, the facts that are described in the statement are
19 dated as taking place in March 1992. So he's put a proposition about
20 March 1992 to the witness, and I think that's important that it's on
21 record that the date according to the witness statement that the accused
22 is reading from is March. He's now having the witness put these facts in
23 April. There's something strange about the way this statement is being
24 used, because it seems to be describing events at another point in time.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is no other reason in terms
1 of time. They arrived for training in March. And in the beginning of
2 April, they left Pajzos for Samac. So the temporal continuity is there,
3 and it is quite logical.
4 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Do you remember that you arrived for training in Pajzos in March
6 or in some other month?
7 A. In March.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is confirming that it
9 was in March.
10 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And in the statement that you gave to the OTP, do we have a date
12 there at all? He shall take a look now to see when it was that you
13 arrived in Pajzos for training. There is no reference to any time. The
14 Prosecutor was not interested in finding that out when he took your
15 statement. There is no time-framework at all about your arrival in
16 Pajzos. They don't care. It is all the same to them because the
17 Prosecutor can manipulate in this way; they can associate and correlate
18 different events which are not associated necessarily, whereas
19 Mr. Ilija Vuckovic's statement is quite precise, and you have confirmed
20 its content, have you not?
21 A. Yes, I have.
22 Q. Well, now we are in Samac. In Samac while you were there when
23 you arrived there in the 17th Tactical Group, was there at all a unit or
24 any group of fighters who call themselves volunteers of the
25 Serbian Radical Party, who identified themselves as such?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Here you have described in some detail the goings-on there, and I
3 should like to find out from you another thing about this crime in
4 Crkvina. Yesterday you steered clear of this subject, avoided to give us
5 an answer, because Lugar has been dead for some time, for some years now.
6 But we have to deal with this subject because even though Lugar is dead
7 we cannot gloss over this fact. Actually, I didn't know myself about
8 this crime until the time when Sulejman Tihic in December of last year
9 actually confirmed that there had been exhumations and established that
10 the crime had taken place.
11 In your statement in paragraph 46 you say:
12 "I saw Lugar and -- I saw Lugar and Tralja fire against these men
13 killing five or seven of them ..."
14 So you just heard the shooting; you did not see it personally.
15 And then you go on to say:
16 "I'm not sure if Debeli Musa also participated in the execution,
17 but he was present ..."
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And yesterday, without any intervention on my part, you yourself
20 said that Debeli Musa is not the same as Srecko Radovanovic, Debeli; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Well, now this is a very important question, and you have helped
24 me much there for us to jointly unmask this OTP of the Tribunal at
25 The Hague
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness does not
2 have this, you have it. This is a summary of the statement of this
3 witness of the 29th of March, 2007.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that things are quite clear,
5 this Debeli who's in Bosanski Samac is not the same person as the person
6 named Debeli belonging to the Serbian Radical Party?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
8 continues] ... in the same unit. There were two men by the same name,
9 Debeli: Debeli, Srecko Radovanovic, the commander of the unit; and
10 Debeli Musa, who was very fat. And that's why we also called him Debeli,
11 fat. They were two different persons, but their nickname was the same.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as what happened in
13 Bosanski Samac is concerned, it is Debeli Musa who was the person there?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both were in Bosanski Samac. In
15 Crkvina it was only Debeli Musa who was there.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Both were in Bosanski Samac --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- the one who was involved in
19 the crime, was it Debeli Musa or the other Debeli?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Debeli Musa.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where was Srecko in that time?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that he was in
23 Bosanski Samac or perhaps in Pelagicevo. I'm not sure.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours, I would like
25 to draw your attention to the summary, together with the statement of the
1 accused, provided on the 27th of -- 29th of March, 2007, on page 107 it
2 is stated that the witness is going to talk about a group of volunteers,
3 that's the penultimate paragraph, a group of volunteers of the SRS which
4 was headed by Srecko Radovanovic, also known as Debeli. That group of
6 He will be talking about the training, instructors. And further on the
7 witness will speak about the participation of volunteers in the events in
8 Bosanski Samac, and he will describe the roles of Debeli --
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, the accused is making submissions.
10 He's not putting questions to the witness. He can make submissions in
11 due course.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a procedural
13 remark. I believe that you need to know this. And we will also ask the
14 witness to provide his comment.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put the question to the
16 witness. The three Judges understand perfectly well and quickly.
17 Please put the question.
18 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
19 Q. The question is this: Are you aware that the OTP manipulated
20 with the fact provided by you and wanted to present to the Trial Chamber
21 that the Debeli who was present during the killings committed by Lugar in
22 Crkvina is the same Debeli whose real name is Srecko Radovanovic?
23 And here I have a document which refers to Srecko Radovanovic,
24 Debeli, his name is mentioned. And it is said in this document that you
25 will be talking about the role of Debeli, and finally it says that:
1 "The witness is going to testify about the killing of five to
2 seven civilians in Crkvina by Lugar, Tralja, and another Chetnik, a
3 volunteer. Debeli was there but the witness is not sure whether he
4 participated in the killings."
5 So there's no reference to Debeli Musa. There is just a
6 continuity of the discourse, first Srecko Radovanovic Debeli, and then
7 the conclusion. Are you area of the manipulation?
8 A. Yes, but I believe that I always drew a distinction between
9 Debeli and Debeli Musa. If I say Debeli, I mean Srecko Radovanovic. If
10 I say Debeli Musa, then it's Debeli Musa and nobody else, and it's a
11 different person.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And you, Your Honours, I would like
13 to remind you that I have publicly thanked a Muslim witness who was a
14 victim to helped me to clarify that Srecko Radovanovic Debeli and the
15 Debeli who was present during the crime were not one in the same person.
16 Maybe you will remember this. I can maybe refer you to your services who
17 can remind you of that part of the transcript.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, we have already
19 heard a witness as regards this person Debeli, that's right. The Debeli
20 that is mentioned in the 2007 statement may -- might not be
21 Srecko Radovanovic, in the light of what the witness is telling us.
22 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, I know this. I only wanted to
23 correct for the record. It is not true that the Prosecution said it was
24 Debeli Srecko Radovanovic. I quote directly from the witness statement.
25 It is from the second -- the second statement of 2006, paragraph 46,
1 there is written:
2 "I am not sure if ... a.k.a. Debeli and then Musa also
3 participated in the execution of these people, but he was present ..."
4 So it is already said in the statement the OTP took from the
5 witness. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is important. I thank
7 you, Mr. Mussemeyer, to have told us --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- 2006 already. There was
10 some hesitation --
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
12 continues] ... summary is not for me but for you, to convince you about
13 the relevance of every witness. Look at the summary that refers to this
14 witness dated 29th March, 2007
15 up the Debeli who participated in the killing with Srecko Radovanovic
16 Debeli. Please look at the summary and all shall become clear. This is
17 not the first time that I am encountering such manipulation and traps set
18 for me by the OTP. There is a lot of that, and I am the only one who had
19 to deal with them.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, there might be a
21 misinterpretation, a mistake, confusion on the part of the Prosecution
22 without there being an intention of forging or manipulating the truth.
23 This is what you have concluded, but it might also be due to hesitations.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
25 continues] ... then you can say that the indictment against me is also a
1 mistake. The indictment is full of errors. Will you remember the
2 meeting in Mali Zvornik that was located by them two years later than it
3 actually happened? It's all full of mistakes. These proceedings are
4 full of tricks by the OTP. Remember the witness 008? We still don't
5 know whether he was at all capable of firing a fire-arm.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed. You have
7 approximately 30 minutes left.
8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Tell me, please, do you remember when Srecko Radovanovic left
11 A. I can't give you the exact date. I can tell you just
12 approximately. In the meantime, he had gotten married, I believe
13 in -- that was in August. I'm not sure.
14 Q. Is it possible that already towards the end of May or the
15 beginning of June he left Samac and then returned?
16 A. Yes, that's a possibility. At that time I was in hospital, so
17 I'm not sure. For 15, 20 days I was in hospital, so that is possible.
18 Q. Something very strange happened when you left Samac, and the OTP
19 helped me, and I'm very grateful to the Prosecutor, but they didn't do it
20 on purpose. In any case, they helped me to clarify that matter.
21 Something strange happened. Negotiations were conducted between the
22 local authorities of Samac and a group of men who had already been there
23 as members of the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA. They were asked to
24 return and to fight for money in the territory of Samac
25 anything about that?
1 A. I don't know about the money, but I know that there were talks to
2 that event and that the late Lugar and some other man did return later on
3 to the same area.
4 Q. Did Lugar come back on his own initiative?
5 A. As far as I know, yes, he did.
6 Q. And here we have a document issued by the Army of
7 Republika Srpska.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the OTP should
9 provide you the document in the English because I don't carry anything in
10 English, just in Serbian.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. And in that document there is an analysis of the events in the
13 territory of Samac. And a reference is made in one place -- let me just
14 find that. Let me find the document, please. I'm so burdened that it
15 is -- I'm encumbered with all these documents.
16 Before I find this document, we shall take a look at what was
17 shown by the OTP yesterday. That is this photostatic copy of a page from
18 the paper "Svetlost" which is published in Kragujevac. It is P1041, if
19 you can call it up on the screen, please.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have it? Can we see it?
21 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
22 Q. We have this report now, but leave that, we shall come back to
23 that. Anyway, this is a report of the command of the
24 2nd Posavina Infantry Brigade in Samac.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please let us see this report also
1 in the Serbian language, the one that we had just a while ago on the left
2 side. Please return the document. It is document 1730 according to the
3 65 ter list. Is this -- is this waiting also going to be detracted from
4 my time -- deducted from my time?
5 The document, Judges, that you see on the right-hand side in
6 English is what I want in Serbian on the left-hand side. Yes, here we
7 have it.
8 Q. This is a document of the command of the 2nd Posavina Infantry
9 Brigade from Samac of the 1st of December, 1992. Are you able to see it?
10 Do you see this? Do you see the heading of the document?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Fine. Turn to page 4, please. Here, a group of officers,
13 13 officers, the commander of the brigade Lieutenant-Colonel Mile
14 Deronja, the Chief of Staff Captain Milan Jocic, and a whole series of
15 other officers from this brigade are giving a report on developments in
16 Samac and the bad relations between the Army of Republika Srpska and the
17 local authorities in Samac. At the end of page 4 on the -- they say 9th,
18 some developments which have been happening recently both within the 2nd
19 Posavina Infantry Brigade as well as within the civilian authorities in
20 the Samac municipality are nothing surprising for those who are well
21 acquainted with the situation but have only surfaced the dirty laundry
22 which has been collected in these areas for quite some time. We shall
23 just point to some characteristic developments.
24 Some members of the local authorities are contributing to the
25 engagement of volunteers from Serbia
1 and later by -- the control of this is by Crni. Allegedly
2 50.000 German marks are allotted per member on condition that they
3 conquer Orasje and that a rich war booty is found there. They promised
4 this to over 700 volunteers. The first group included some 300, but in
5 fact there were only 30 volunteers, some of whom who had never seen the
6 theatre of war.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment: This was translated and
8 not read from the English translation.
9 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Have you seen this?
11 A. No, I haven't seen any part of this text. Where should I look,
12 at the screen or where?
13 Q. You could only have seen it on the screen and nowhere else.
14 What does this tell us now? It tells that the local authorities
15 first planned Srecko Radovanovic, and when he refused then they talked to
16 Crni, that is, Dragan Djordjevic Crni; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the army informed the superior command of the Army of
19 Republika Srpska that the local authorities were negotiating with some
20 who were volunteers earlier to come and to bring others, and they were
21 promised 700 volunteers and that the first group would have 300, whereas
22 only 30 showed up. Someone had planned to attack Orasje. Do you know
23 where Orasje is?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. There was a front line between Samac and Orasje?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Orasje was held by the Croats; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Someone from the local authorities planned an attack on Orasje
5 and was offering money for the engagement of these volunteers; is that
6 clear from the text which I read out?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can this have any connection with the Serbian Radical Party, this
9 private arrangement?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was this the reason for Lugar to again return to Samac?
12 A. Possibly. I cannot give you a full response.
13 Q. But are you familiar with the fact that after all of you left
14 Samac, after all of you had left Samac, he of his own accord returned to
15 Samac with a group of people?
16 A. I know that.
17 Q. We are again assisted by this OTP document, that is, "Svetlost,"
18 of the 13th of August, 1998.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see that on the ELMO? I
20 indicated the document's number a while ago. I'm lost in all these
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you give the number of
23 the document of August 13, 1998
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was admitted yesterday. The
25 number P1041. You admitted it as an exhibit of the OTP yesterday,
1 although actually the OTP withheld one paragraph from you. Perhaps you
2 will recall that I intervened on that account.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.
4 MR. MUSSEMEYER: If I may, it was the document with the
5 65 ter number 7530 that has the document identification 0341-7948.
6 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Please look at page 2 of this document. This Article was
8 published after Lugar had been killed. You heard that Lugar had been
9 killed in Kragujevac?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. He had a personal conflict with a local member of the
12 State Security Service, and this latter guy shot him; did you hear about
14 A. Yes, I did. I read about it.
15 Q. After Lugar was killed, the Kragujevac paper "Svetlost" published
16 this article, and the last paragraph in the first column of this says --
17 can you look at it? I am going to read it out and you can follow the
18 text on the screen. The first -- the last, actually, paragraph of the
19 first column. I can have it zoomed in for you.
20 A. Please.
21 Q. "The unit which was led by Slobodan Miljkovic Lugar was a part
22 of the volunteers sent to Croatia
23 from Kragujevac."
24 This is what the journalist is saying. And then he goes on:
25 "The then-president of the municipal board of the
1 Serbian Radical Party Tomislav Nikolic denied stories that the Radicals
2 had organised the transfer of Miljko's volunteers across the border of
3 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The group referred to had gone to
4 theatres of war earlier as well in Baranja, Western Srem, Slavonia
6 considered to have -- to be -- have a great obligation towards those
7 people there, the people there, even though I drew attention to them that
8 now our authorities can easily have them arrested."
9 Did I read this correctly?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So Tomislav Nikolic is confirming that the second time they went
12 there it was of their own initiative?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That autumn you were arrested in Samac and taken to Banja Luka;
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You, Lugar, and another number of people were arrested?
18 A. The entire unit plus me.
19 Q. And that entire unit, did it have anything to do with the
20 Serbian Radical Party at that time?
21 A. No, none whatsoever.
22 Q. You were arrested because there had been a clash between you and
23 some scouting detachment; am I right -- of some other Serbian unit?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You tried to disarm that other unit, they put up resistance, and
1 on that occasion a member of that unit was killed; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then you were arrested but then you were set free because
4 there was no evidence against you?
5 A. After the first interview with the investigating judge, we were
6 set free.
7 Q. Very well. And the OTP found in a book of mine which has been
8 submitted as 1965 according to 65 ter list. It was my show broadcast on
9 Radio Kragujevac on the 28th November, 1993. And in that show, it was a
10 phone-in show. People phoned in and asked me questions. One of the
11 questions was this: Why I, as the president of the party, did not
12 intervene when Lugar and his group of men were arrested in Samac and
13 taken to Banja Luka?
14 And the question was put to me about Grey Wolves. I'm showing
15 here that I don't have a clue what this was all about, that as a matter
16 of fact I mistook the Grey Wolves for Wolves from Vucak. Do you hear of
17 wolves from Vucak?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That was a unit from the vicinity of Banja Luka?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And they didn't have anything to do with the Grey Wolves; is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And in that show I didn't know what they would ask me, and I said
25 that I don't know -- I haven't a clue that they had ever been there, that
1 there were armed members there, and that they were ever arrested --
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I suppose, Your Honours, that
3 you have this in this English language and it has been translated so I
4 will no longer linger upon this. And I explain here what my relationship
5 with Arkan was. And if I have some more time -- can you please tell me
6 how much more time do I have at the moment?
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe that you have
8 15 minutes left now.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I will make the most of
10 the 15 minutes that I'm left to clarify the relationship between
11 volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party and Arkan's men, although I have
12 pointed to the document where I explained that very well in a radio show.
13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
14 Q. We have mentioned here that in Prigrevica, in the training
15 centre, there were also members of other parties; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. However, there was no single Arkan's man there; right?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Arkan had his own training centres, he had his own facilities,
20 and so on and so forth; right?
21 A. Yes, you're right.
22 Q. Did it happen that our volunteer at a certain stage joined
23 Arkan's unit?
24 A. Yes, it did happen a few times.
25 Q. What in your view was so attractive in Arkan's unit for those men
1 to join them? Not many did, five or six, but they did?
2 A. Believe me, I don't know.
3 Q. Did you hear that Arkan paid his men a lot of money?
4 A. Yes, I heard that, if that's what you meant.
5 Q. Do you know that they had the best equipment, the best weapons?
6 A. I know that. I saw that.
7 Q. And do you know that Arkan also looted the areas of combat?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know that a lot of criminal affairs were tied to Arkan's
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. A certain number of men cared about the huge pay in Arkan's unit,
13 and that's why they joined them having left our volunteer groups; is that
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. It happened that two men joined Arkan's unit as early as
17 September 1991. I'm not too sure that there were two. Yesterday, the
18 OTP showed you a video-clip from the funeral of a man who was a volunteer
19 of the Serbian Radical Party, and they mispronounced his name. First
20 they said that he was Slobodan Jovic and then Slobodan Jojic, and so on.
21 Actually, it was Slobodan Jocic. Did you ever hear of Slobodan Jocic?
22 On the 4th [as interpreted] of September he was killed in Laslovo.
23 A. Yes, together with three other men.
24 Q. At the time when he was killed, was he a member of our volunteer
25 unit or was he a member of Arkan's men?
1 A. No, he was a member of Arkan's unit.
2 Q. Do you know that before he was our volunteer?
3 A. I know that as well.
4 Q. And then he joined Arkan's unit and he was killed?
5 A. Yes, you're right.
6 Q. And the journalist says it's very clearly that he was a member of
7 the Serbian Radical Party, but that he was Arkan's fighter; did we hear
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. It was similar with Mirko Lovadinovic who was killed on the same
11 day, I believe, on the 14th of September?
12 A. Yes, the two of them were in the group of four, and they were
13 killed on the same day.
14 Q. In Laslovo?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And Mirko Lovadinovic, who was a university professor, he worked
17 at the school for [indiscernible]; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, I believe so.
19 Q. According to my information, he was with our volunteers until his
20 group returned to Serbia
21 A. Yes, he was with our volunteers, and I believe that he was
22 billeted in the village called Ada
23 Q. And when his group returned to Serbia, he decided to stay on and
24 continue fighting and that's why he joined Arkan's men?
25 A. It is possible. At that time, I was already in a different
2 Q. And he died in fighting? The Croats shot him from a
3 small-calibre rifle?
4 A. I believe so, but I'm -- can't remember the details.
5 Q. I saw photos from the post mortem. Half of his head was missing
6 as a result of that shot. Do you know that small-calibre weapons are
7 forbidden according to the rules of war?
8 A. I know that.
9 Q. Because a small-calibre bullet causes the so-called inhumane
10 wounds; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If you're hit in the head, then it destroys half of the head; if
13 it hits you in the body, then the bullet travels and damages many of the
14 internal organs; am I right? This is a layman's interpretation?
15 A. You're absolutely right.
16 Q. So he was hit with the forbidden bullets. Do you know that
17 anybody on the Serbian side used forbidden weapons and bullets in the
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you also hear that Croats used sub-calibre automatic weapons
21 of Singapore
22 A. Yes, SA-80.
23 Q. And the bullet of those Singapore
25 A. Yes, their calibre is 5.56, a small calibre.
1 Q. Do you also know that the Croats engaged Kurdish mercenaries in
2 the fighting in Eastern Slavonia?
3 A. I know.
4 Q. Were there any fallen Kurds in the fighting that you participated
5 in --
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, it seems that you are
7 well versed in ballistics, but I'm a bit surprised by Mr. Seselj's logic,
8 which you proved. He says that small-calibre weapons are banned by
9 international texts. Calibre 5.56 is what the French army has at the
10 moment, I believe, and other armies also. So could you expand on this a
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I absolutely agree with you. The
13 French M-16 -- I apologise, the French M-2000 and the American M-16 and
14 the British SA-80, and the Russian Kalashnikov AK-74 [as interpreted];
15 they all use a 5.56 calibre which is forbidden according to the
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll check that.
18 Please proceed.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, the JNA never
20 had such weapons, never.
21 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Am I right when I say this?
23 A. Yes.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How much time do I still have? Can
25 you please tell me?
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Probably about ten minutes.
2 Ten minutes, and then it will be over.
3 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I shall like to find out one thing now. You were wounded in
5 Samac, and it is on that basis you're entitled to military disability
6 pension still today?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How is this possible when you told us that you did not have a
9 military service booklet when you were in Samac?
10 A. Do not ask me that question. Ask those who gave me that pension.
11 Q. Well, I'm surprised how you went there in principle because all
12 the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party, wherever they went, after
13 September 1991, after our agreement with the JNA that they would all be
14 included within the JNA, they all have their war service inscribed in
15 their service booklets. Do you know that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When in 1995 you went to Majevica as a volunteer of the
18 Serbian Radical Party, was it inscribed? Was it entered in your service
19 booklet that you served as such?
20 A. No, I didn't even have a military -- I didn't take along a
21 military service booklet.
22 Q. You didn't take it along?
23 A. Well, I didn't go there in order to -- for -- to collect years of
25 Q. But we insisted that all volunteers should carry with them their
1 military service booklets and that their service be entered.
2 A. Well, I didn't.
3 Q. Well, it remains unknown for me how you managed to be entitled to
4 this disability pension if you did not have a military service booklet at
5 that time?
6 A. I would be very glad if you managed to resolve this unknown of
7 yours because I don't know it myself.
8 Q. When my associates addressed you, it was Zoran Krasic, do you
9 remember the name of my associate?
10 A. Yes, it was him.
11 Q. Did you know at that time that the Defence was entitled to
12 getting in touch with Prosecution witnesses prior to their appearance in
13 court if the OTP agrees to that?
14 A. Well, believe me, I do not have much experience in taking the
15 stand before a Tribunal of this kind, so that I do not know.
16 Q. In your first statement you told us that you had never talked
17 with the OTP of The Hague
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. For some reason you wanted to hide from us your contacts with the
20 OTP for some conspiratorial reasons?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What are the reasons? What was the trial that you were being
23 proofed for, if it is not a secret?
24 A. I was convinced all the time that it would be the
25 Stanisic and Simatovic trial.
1 Q. Are you still being prepared for that trial?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. This is why I'm asking you this because your statement is wholly
4 true. In its entirety it is true. The one which you gave here orally in
5 courtroom, not the written one which was written for you by the OTP, and
6 you did not read it carefully. Except this identification, namely, in
7 what capacity you went to Samac from Pajzos. Everything else is true.
8 Because, according to every parameter, you went there as members of the
10 A. Well, if you say so. I know what I was told.
11 Q. But you have no written trace that it was really the way it was
12 told you?
13 A. No, except that I was wounded there. I do not have a single
14 written document with which to prove I was in Bosanski Samac at all.
15 Q. But you were issued with some weapons there, you were billeted to
16 some quarters there, you were given food?
17 A. The -- the weapons were loaded on two helicopters at Lezimir. We
18 flew from Lezimir.
19 Q. But you were a member of the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA?
20 A. There we joined the 17th Tactical Group.
21 Q. But you belonged to the JNA?
22 A. We were under their command.
23 Q. I have the statement of Srecko Radovanovic and with that I shall
24 finish my cross-examination. You have it before you. It is one of the
25 three documents which I gave you yesterday.
1 Srecko Radovanovic confirms everything which you have alleged,
2 that you were in Eastern Slavonia, that you worked for the police, that
3 you were trained -- went for training to Pajzos. On page 3 of his
4 statement - please turn to page 3 - in the first paragraph he says:
5 "He consulted me also whether to go for that training or not.
6 When I asked him," he's referring to me, "he said that he had nothing
7 against our having decided, but whether we would go or not did not depend
8 on him," that is me.
9 Is that what Srecko said?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When a volunteer from Serbia
12 Serbian Radical Party, happens to find himself in the zone of combat, can
13 we prevent in any way him from being transferred from moving from one
14 unit to another unit?
15 A. Not by any legal means, as far as I know; you were not able to
16 prevent anyone from your volunteer unit to join a police of Krajina unit
17 or a JNA unit.
18 Q. [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
20 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
21 Q. If we were not satisfied with the conduct of a volunteer, what
22 sanctions did we have at our disposal? For instance, we sent a group of
23 volunteers to a village in Slavonia
24 behaving in a disciplined fashion, he drinks, he has been found looting
25 or brawling or similar. What can we do against him?
1 A. In such cases, he would be sent back home. And in case of a
2 serious breach of conduct, he would be handed over to the police.
3 Q. And if he was sent home, we would have him on our records as
4 someone who was given to breach of discipline and conduct and was never
5 again sent there?
6 A. Yes, as far as I know.
7 Q. And the only sanction which we could pronounce on him was to
8 actually -- to actually have him no longer be a member of our party?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if a serious breach in question, he would be given over to
11 the military or civilian police?
12 A. Yes, to the civilian or military police.
13 Q. When this happened in Crkvina, why was this not reported to the
14 civilian police or the military police?
15 A. I cannot give you an answer to that question.
16 Q. Because you had left the place, but someone might be able to give
17 us an answer. All right.
18 In the second paragraph on page 3, Srecko Radovanovic says:
19 "I remember the training was conducted at Ilok on an offshoot of
20 the Fruska Gora mountain."
21 That is where Pajzos is; right?
22 A. Yes, the vineyard of Pajzos.
23 Q. "We practically were JNA volunteers ."
24 Do you see that Srecko says this here?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. [Microphone not activated]
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
4 Q. What do you say to that?
5 A. I don't say anything. I have no comment. I have no comment. I
6 really do not know.
7 Q. And he also says:
8 "With us were some guys hailing from the vicinity of
9 Bosanski Samac. They were also training with us."
10 Do you know that there was a group from Bosanski Samac being
11 trained there?
12 A. Yes, there was. I mentioned that there was a group of
13 10 or 15 locals who underwent training with us at Pajzos.
14 Q. And Stevan Todorovic was with them; right?
15 A. Yes, he came to see them occasionally.
16 Q. Who brought them there for training, the JNA, the police, or a
17 third party?
18 A. I don't know that.
19 Q. In paragraph 3 Srecko says:
20 "Around the 10th of April on JNA helicopters you were transferred
21 to the village of Batkusa
22 Is that right?
23 A. Yes, that is what I said in my statement.
24 Q. He also mentions the name of Stevan called Kriger, an artillery
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. He said he immediately became a member of the staff of the
3 17th Tactical Group; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, he was often there. I don't know what his exact function
6 Q. And he says:
7 "Everything which was done was on the basis of the commands and
8 orders coming from that staff until the 19th of May, 1992, when the JNA
9 withdrew from the territory of Republika Srpska. We all became members
10 of the Army of Republika Srpska on a voluntary basis as part of the new
11 brigade. I was appointed the Chief of Staff of the Bosnian brigade in
13 Do you know that Srecko Radovanovic, Debeli, was the
14 Chief of Staff of the Bosnian Brigade?
15 A. Yes, when I returned from hospital, he was already appointed to
16 that post.
17 Q. He was a very capable commander?
18 A. Yes, I agree.
19 Q. Do you know that earlier he worked as a policeman and was retired
20 on account of disability?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. That was much before the beginning of the war?
23 A. I don't know exactly how long he worked, but I knew that he
24 worked as a policeman.
25 Q. And he says here that he didn't have any contacts with the
1 Serbian Radical Party at the time when he was in Bosanski Samac. Do you
2 know that I proclaim Srecko Radovanovic Debeli as Chetnik Vojvoda for his
3 war valour?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And there's reference to Dragan Djordjevic, also known as Crni.
6 Did you ever hear that he was a member of the Serbian Radical Party?
7 A. No.
8 Q. On page 4 of his statement in paragraph 3, Srecko Radovanovic
9 says about Dragan Djordjevic, also know as Crni:
10 "He was never a member of the Serbian Radical Party. He was
11 never a volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party, and I know him only from
12 Bosanski Samac. He was transferred with us to Batkusa on the same
13 helicopter, and he was not a member of my unit."
14 Do you agree with this statement?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. So Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, was never a member of
17 Srecko Radovanovic, Debeli's, unit?
18 A. No. Him and late Vuk, if I'm not mistaken, they were attached to
19 the unit, and they had other tasks.
20 Q. And here is what he says about Slobodan Miljkovic, Lugar. That's
21 the fourth paragraph again in the same statement by Srecko Radovanovic:
22 "... as far as Slobodan Miljkovic, also known as Lugar, is
23 concerned, and he received his nickname in Slavonia. He hails from
24 Kragujevac just as I do. He came independently to Slavonia in 1991, not
25 as a volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party."
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Last question because your time
2 is up and we need to stop now, so please ask your last question.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
4 continues] ... my last question, sir.
5 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
6 Q. "... and he asked to join us as a volunteer. But as far as I
7 know, he -- at the time, he was not a member of the Serbian Radical
8 Party. He became a member in mid-1993, and after a year he was deleted
9 from party membership."
10 Do you know why that happened in 1993 or 1994, why was he
11 excluded from the membership of the Serbian Radical Party?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. If I tell you that he slapped the president of the
14 Municipal Board of Kragujevac on one occasion, his name was Jovan Savic,
15 would that be convincing? Would that conjure up the image of Lugar?
16 A. I suppose so.
17 Q. And what about Srecko Radovanovic, did he also have problems with
19 A. Yes.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This brings my cross-examination to
21 an end.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, your testimony is
23 finished. The Trial Chamber had an hour and a half, the Prosecutor an
24 hour and a half, and Mr. Seselj an hour and a half.
25 Mr. Mussemeyer, there is no re-direct when the witnesses are
1 witnesses of the Chamber.
2 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Okay. Mr. President, I only wanted to -- I had
3 the time to look also in the first statement the witness gave us in 2004,
4 and there is the same sentence related to Debeli who was in Crkvina.
5 It's also said "I'm not sure if 'Debeli Musa' also participated in the
6 execution," just for your information and that what the witness already
7 told the OTP at that time was the truth and correct. Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there's no dispute
9 that this is contained in the statement; however, in the summary that the
10 OTP compiled based on the statement, they tried to deceive you and they
11 tried to tell you that Debeli Musa is actually Srecko Radovanovic,
12 Debeli. And that was the point that I tried to make. There is no doubt
13 that everything is clear in the statement itself. However, in the
14 summary, this has been misstated or rather badly put.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please wait. We have to drop
16 the blinds. We shall have the break now. During the break, I shall ask
17 the Registrar to bring the second witness into the courtroom. This
18 witness has been granted protective measures.
19 Sir, I thank you for having come, and I wish you a safe journey
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, the following witness does
22 not have any protective measures, does he?
23 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 [The witness entered court]
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 15759-15760 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, we have carefully studied your
4 statements that you have earlier provided to the Prosecution, and so we
5 are well aware of what you have testified earlier also in the trials in
6 which you have given testimony previously. So I do not need to go
7 through all of this again. It's already on the record.
8 But I would like you to, for the purposes of this trial, clarify
9 a few details in relation to the events in 1992 when you were arrested in
10 Brcko. Perhaps I should ask you to give a brief account of the days
11 preceding your arrest and of the arrest itself. Can you do that just
13 A. I can. The war started around the 1st of May when the bridges on
14 the Sava
15 distribution, and then on the 30th of April both bridges on the Sava were
16 blown up. I went to my company, where I was given work obligation. And
17 then we were informed by our director to go back home and wait there to
18 be called back because there would be a work obligation imposed upon all
19 of us to come and work in our companies. That's what I did. I remained
20 in my apartment until the 8th or the 9th of May; I can't remember
21 exactly. And then people from the electrical distribution of Brcko came
22 to fetch me and took me to the company. I remained there until the
23 27th of May, and then I was arrested by members of the Serbian police and
24 taken to the public security station in Brcko.
25 There I was kept for 40 minutes approximately, and from there I
1 was transported to Luka. And I remained there until 7 June 1992. And
2 then I was taken from Luka to my apartment and then from my apartment to
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. Sir, in the process of your
5 arrest itself, did you notice anybody else than the police? I'm asking
6 about if there were any other armed or uniformed persons around other
7 than the police when you were arrested?
8 A. From the 30th of April when everything started, I did move about
9 the town up to the 7th of May or thereabouts. And during that time, I
10 saw different uniforms, different members of the Serbian forces that
11 existed in Brcko at the time. I saw them at check-points there which
12 were manned by the police and the military. And those men belonged to
13 different formations of the Serbian volunteers who manned them together
14 with members of the JNA.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir. This was exactly what I was
16 asking about because we need to talk a bit about your observations, if
17 you remember, about the various Serb forces that were active in Brcko in
18 the days leading up to your arrest.
19 You have mentioned the police who actually physically arrested
20 you. You also said that in the city of Brcko you had observed soldiers
21 of the JNA, I assume; you also said that you had seen various volunteer
22 groups in the city and at the check-points. Now, let's focus on the
23 volunteers that you observed. Are you able to recollect where about in
24 the city you saw volunteers, and are you able to remember specific
25 insignia that these volunteers may have worn on their uniforms, and are
1 you able to describe their uniforms?
2 A. All the volunteers at the time wore camouflage uniforms, and I
3 have already repeated this a lot of times, that I assumed that they were
4 provided with those uniforms by the JNA. However, there were other
5 different check-points around the town where you could see mixed members
6 of the Serbian forces together with the military police of the JNA. For
7 example, by the battery factory Tesla in Brcko, the check-point was
8 manned by the Serbian volunteers and the Serbian forces from Serbia
9 so-called Red Berets. By the Galeb, the check-point was manned by the
10 Serbian Radical Party or Chetniks as they called themselves.
11 By the electric power authority building, Major Mauzer, the
12 commander of the Serbian Guards, came on a couple of occasions, as well
13 as members of the Serbian Chetnik Movement from Bijeljina and other
14 different parts of the former Yugoslavia
15 Why did they come to the electric power authority building?
16 Either they needed fuel, or they took people who worked there -- or they
17 took people's vehicles that were parked in the parking-lot. On one
18 occasion, lieutenant-colonel who was the garrison commander
19 Lieutenant-Colonel Pavle Milinkovic and his escorts came there. I don't
20 know why he came. In any case, everywhere, all over the town and later
21 on in Luka I saw different members of different paramilitary formations,
22 Chetniks, Arkan's Tigers, members of the police force that existed in
23 Brcko at the time as also members of the military police. Arkan's Tigers
24 had the insignia of a tiger on the sleeves of their uniforms, and they
25 also had Serbian three-coloured flags on the chest. And members of the
1 Chetnik Movement, some of them had cockades on their hats or on their
2 uniforms, elsewhere on their uniform.
3 On one occasion, Mr. Mirko Blagojevic came with his escorts to
4 Luka and ill-treated a certain number of prisoners who were there at the
5 time. On one occasion, a man called Enver who said that he was a Chetnik
6 carved a cross on the head of a friend of mine who was lying next to me.
7 He carved a cross with a knife on his forehead.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Witness. We'll come to that. But
9 let me just revert to your observations at the check-points. Because you
10 say that the check-point was manned by Serbian Radical Party or Chetniks
11 as they called themselves, how were you able to determine that they were
12 members of the Serbian Radical Party?
13 A. For example, in front of Galeb where their check-point was or
14 perhaps their command; I don't know what they called it at the time. It
15 was Hotel Galeb at the time, and now it is Ilina hotel. There was a
16 flag -- a black flag hoisted with a human skull in the middle, the skull
17 was white. And there was the inscription: "Members of the Serbian
18 Chetnik Movement, the Majevica Semberija SAO Krajina."
19 That's how I concluded that they belonged to the Serbian Chetnik
20 Movement or the Serbian Radical Party.
21 On one occasion, on the day when I was liberated, Mr. Rade Bozic,
22 who liberated me, took me to the customs area before we set off for
23 Bijeljina, Ugljevik, and then onwards to Belgrade. And then he himself
24 told me -- and I also saw vehicles parked there and they belonged to the
25 Ministry of the Interior of Serbian special units. And I also saw
1 vehicles that belonged to the Serbian Radical Party from Serbia or
2 Chetniks. And he confirmed that himself. He said it himself that all
3 Serbs from Serbia
4 Red Berets and members of the Serbian Chetnik Movement were billeted
5 there. That's where they spent their nights. Members of the Serbian
6 movement, units from Serbia
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Witness. Now, you are aware of
9 the fact that the accused in this trial was the leader of the
10 Serb Radical Party. So for that reason it becomes crucial to distinguish
11 clearly between those who actually were volunteers of the SRS and others.
12 And I understand that there was a large mixed group of volunteers who
13 came from various origins. Some of them were probably members of the
15 themselves Chetniks. You have also mentioned Arkan's men, which is a
16 third group.
17 So, again, I revert to my original question: How were you able
18 to determine that the volunteers at the check-points or at least some of
19 them were members of the SRS
20 A. On one occasion, as we were leaving the electric power authority
21 Brcko to repair some power cuts across the river, we were stopped at a
22 check-point in front of the Galeb, or seagull, Hotel. There were two men
23 at the check-point with a radio set. Judging by the way they were
24 dressed and judging by the way they looked and the insignia they wore,
25 they were members of the Chetnik Movement. When they stopped us, a
1 vehicle came from the garrison carrying the reserve captain Mitic, one of
2 the inspectors or members of the police station Brcko before the war,
3 Krsto Mihajlovic. They came by and stopped at the same check-point where
4 we were stopped by the aforementioned gentleman. Mitic got out of the
5 car and asked them, Gentlemen, what's happening? And then they said, We
6 stopped them because something is happening in town.
7 And we may have been standing there for some ten minutes or so.
8 And I am convinced that they were members of the Chetnik Movement, and
9 now I believe that they were. And later on --
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, let me just get back. The fact that
11 they were members of the Chetnik Movement is not necessarily the same as
12 being a member of the SRS
13 the SRS
14 altogether called themselves members of the Chetnik Movement. But not
15 all members of the Chetnik Movement were members of the SRS.
16 So, for the third time, I want you to think about anything that
17 you can explain to us about how you were able to determine that some of
18 the people you saw at the check-points were members of the SRS. They may
19 have told you or you may have known because you knew some of them or
20 otherwise. So that's what I'm asking you to clarify.
21 A. I believe that many members of the Serbian Radical Party were not
22 all Chetniks at that time. I'm not saying to Your Honours that all
23 members of the Radical Party were members of the Chetnik Movement. I
24 distance myself from that. I cannot say on the basis of somebody's
25 uniform, "This is a member of the Socialist Party of Serbia or this other
1 one is a member of the Serbian Chetniks because he's a member of the
2 Serbian Radical Party." To me they looked like Chetniks. And I believe
3 and I'm convinced that they were Chetniks. Now, whether they were also
4 members of the Serbian Radical Party, that I do not know nor can I tell
5 you anything about that.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. So now we have this established, and no
7 one told you that they were members of the SRS, and you did not know any
8 of them to be members of the SRS
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. Let's then move to the police station
11 after your arrest. You said that you were brought to this SJB building
12 and you were held there for a short time and then you were moved on to
13 the Luka camp. During your short stay at the SJB building, did you see
14 other uniformed personnel than police? In other words, were there army
15 officers or army people around, and were there also volunteers or
16 Chetniks, as you called them, at the police station?
17 A. There were members of the regular police forces dressed in police
18 uniforms, there were also other men dressed in camouflage uniforms, and
19 there were members of the special units from the garrison. And I could
20 see that because they were all sitting there at the reception near this
21 large entrance to the SUP
22 members of the Serbian Radical Party.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. And then let's move on to the Luka
24 camp. And I repeat my question there. Did you see in or around the Luka
25 camp -- or let me ask you: Who were guarding the Luka camp; do you
2 A. Outside the offices, outside the hangar itself were men dressed
3 in the old reserve uniforms of the JNA. Most of them were probably
4 actually reservists mobilised as such. The man who was there when I
5 arrived at Luka was Branko Pudic who used to be a policeman in Brcko
6 before the war. He is still a policeman. Later when they pushed me to
7 that office, Mr. Nedic was sitting there. He's a mate of mine, a friend
8 of mine, from the sports field. He was a JNA captain first class. The
9 second man sitting at the desk was also dressed in a reserve JNA uniform.
10 He was a lieutenant by rank. There were another two men; one was wearing
11 a camouflage uniform, and the other one also a reserve JNA uniform. He
12 had a big beard, and he had a sort of a fire-fighting hose, nozzle, with
13 him. He also wore a cockade.
14 And after they pushed me into this office I said, "Good morning."
15 And this bearded man told me, "Fuck your mother. Do you know how the
16 Serbs greet one another ?" And I said, "Okay. I know." And I said,
17 "God help you, brother Serbs." And he said, "That is okay. That was how
18 it should be said."
19 They didn't beat me much on that occasion. They started asking
20 me what I (redacted)
21 (redacted)- Pudic
22 after that took me to the first hangar.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. You just inadvertently came to reveal
24 your name, so I ask that this be redacted.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 Registrar, please, redaction.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: So, Mr. Witness, what you are telling me is that
3 at the Luka camp you saw that the guards were members of the JNA. You
4 also saw that there was at least some police people present inside the
5 camp. And you also observed the presence of some Chetniks or members of
6 the Chetnik Movement, judging by their appearance with cockades and big
7 beards and so on. Is that a fair resume of your conclusion -- of your
8 testimony, sorry?
9 A. Yes, and as I told you when you asked me before, in short, on one
10 occasion, Vojvoda Mirko Blagojevic came there with his entourage. We all
11 knew who he was. And also when a gentleman from the Chetnik Movement who
12 introduced himself as such carved a cross on one of the prisoners; I
13 don't know whether he belonged to the Radical Party, but he did belong to
14 the Chetnik Movement.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand. Did you see any other instances of
16 mistreatment of the detainees carried out by the volunteers or the
17 Chetniks, as you call them?
18 A. That time when Duke Mirko Blagojevic came with his escorts and
19 with another four or five men in his entourage, they threw to us biscuits
20 and cigarettes to us in Luka, and Mirko Blagojevic delivered a sort of a
21 political speech to us. He said, Well, brothers, Muslims, now war has
22 befallen us. And so on and so forth. It was a fair speech, so to say.
23 But after about an hour, these same people who threw cigarettes to us and
24 biscuits to us, they burst into the hangar with parts of shovels, wooden
25 sticks, and started beating all the prisoners indiscriminately. Some
1 they kicked, some they hit with these wooden sticks, the handles of
2 spades and shovels. After a certain time, this same group - I wasn't
3 drinking coffee but other people were - they came into the hangar and
4 brought us coffee to have coffee together with them. And some of the
5 prisoners did have coffee with them, having previously been beaten by
7 On other occasions, when I saw members of the Chetnik Movement,
8 when this guy came into the hangar and seised by the neck
9 Brajlevic [phoen], took a knife out of his boot and carved a cross on his
10 forehead. This is what I saw the Chetniks do while I was at Luka.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir. I have no more questions for you
12 at this time.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will give the floor to my
14 fellow Judge in a second, but I have a follow-up question first. It will
15 be very short. In Brcko according to you when the Serbian forces were
16 there, the volunteers, and so on, the paramilitaries, could you tell us
17 whether according to you someone was in charge, someone was commanding
18 all this?
19 A. I believe that someone was.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who was it?
21 A. I think that the person in charge who wielded the most control
22 was Lieutenant-Colonel Pavle Milinkovic. He was the commander in the
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 Lieutenant-Colonel Pavle Milinkovic - I'm sorry for my
1 pronunciation - could you tell us which army this person belonged to?
2 A. At that time, the Yugoslav People's Army.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's all I wanted
4 to know.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you,
6 Mr. President.
7 Witness, let's return to the identification of those individuals
8 who belonged to these groups you mentioned because I'm still a bit
9 confused. You said -- you talked about Chetniks. You mentioned
10 individuals who belonged to the Serbian Radical Party. You mentioned
11 volunteers and other groups belonging to Arkan and so on.
12 So first and foremost I would like to know what exactly you mean
13 when you say "Chetnik." Could you tell us what is the main feature of
14 these Chetniks. When you identify someone as "Chetnik," what is the main
15 feature of this person?
16 A. I know from the history of the Yugoslav peoples who the Chetniks
17 were, and what I learned in my history subject and the picture that I got
18 from the history subject that was taught in the former Yugoslavia in the
19 same way as these Chetniks operated during the Second World War, that is
20 actually the image of them that I had when I saw them operating at the
21 different points. Normally, a member of the JNA, of police forces, of
22 regular or any other police forces, would not have worn a beard or a
23 knife tucked into his belt. And all these men, they had these huge
24 knives. I just don't know. Actually, the picture that I got about them
25 when I was studying history was actually confirmed during this time.
1 Just looking at them, watching their symbols in town, actually conjured
2 up this image in my mind, and I had this association that they were
3 members of that Chetnik Movement.
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So they had the same ideas, they
5 shared the same ideas, but which ideas were they -- was it?
6 A. I think I saw many times in red Mr. Seselj's statements about how
7 the members of the Chetnik Movement were defending the Serbian people
8 from the Croatia HDZ, the paramilitary forces in Croatia, or what have
9 you, the war events in Bosnia
10 that they were there to defend the threatened Serbian people together
11 with the other armed forces in Bosnia
12 the common idea.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So they had a defensive goal, to
14 defend themselves against an enemy which threatened the Serbs; is that
16 A. That's the way I understood it. I don't know what actually
17 was -- who threatened whom. That would require some discussion.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Indeed. Now, I would like to
19 know whether you ever heard that these Chetniks who were in Brcko during
20 the conflict in Brcko had a leader. I'm not talking about a military
21 commander. I'm talking about a leader. Did they have a leader?
22 A. At that time in Brcko, Vojvoda Mirko Blagojevic was a member of
23 the Chetnik Movement from Bijeljina, and everybody knew that. He spoke
24 on Radio Brcko, Serbian Brcko as they called it at the time. I mean,
25 among the Serbs in the electrical company in Brcko, they said that they
1 had special locations in the city of Brcko
2 cafe Bolero being one of those places. And as I already have said who
3 they had staffed their headquarters was at the Galeb hotel in Brcko.
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Now, above Blagojevic, was there
5 another leader at national level?
6 A. Well, at that time, if we look at how the Serbian Radical Party
7 was founded in Bosnia and Herzegovina with the assistance of the
8 Serbian Radical Party in Serbia
9 everybody knew, I suppose so.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Unless I'm mistaken, I think
11 that when you answered Judge Harhoff or the Presiding Judge, you
12 mentioned about -- you mentioned Vojvoda Blagojevic. You did say that;
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Do you know who appointed
16 Blagojevic, Vojvoda?
17 A. I do not know, but I can assume, because the only Vojvoda
18 publicly proclaimed that before Blagojevic was Mr. Seselj. I believe
19 that Mr. Seselj was conferred this title by the priest Pop Djujic, and
20 whether he had the authority to confer such titles upon people in Bosnia
21 and Herzegovina
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Was Mirko Blagojevic at the Luka
23 detention centre?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Can you tell us what role he
1 played in the treatment of the prisoners in this camp?
2 A. As I said before, when he arrived on that day with his escorts,
3 he delivered a political speech to us. Later, these very same escorts
4 enter the hangar and started --
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise. Could you give us
6 some details on this political speech and say what the content of this
7 speech was?
8 A. That time in Luka he was the first one to address all the
9 prisoners with the words "Muslim brethren," brothers Muslims. That is
10 how he started his speech. Before that, whoever would enter the hangar
11 would say, You "balijas," which is a derogatory for "Muslims." You
12 Turks - I have no connection with the Turks by the way at all - and this
13 is how they called us. Any way, his approach was like this: We are
14 brothers. We should agree on things. We should consult each other.
15 He called us brothers, Muslims, and I found his speech a bit
16 strange frankly.
17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And what was his speech about?
18 A. About how this conflict had come about, that we should be killing
19 each other, that this was something that we did not need at all. It was
20 nothing in particular. He never threatened anybody in his speeches,
21 which is interesting. However, after finishing this conversation with
22 others, as I said, the same people who were in his entourage delivered a
23 different kind of speech to the prisoners, if I can put it that way.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In his presence?
25 A. No. No, no, he was not in the hangar then.
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And when the detainees were
2 abused - because this is what you say in your statement - was Blagojevic
4 A. He was not in the hangar. Now, whether he was there present at
5 the offices, that I don't know, but not in the hangar.
6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But you don't know whether he
7 was told about this abuse?
8 A. I believe that he was, but I cannot tell you. I don't know
9 whether they informed him about it. I'm not quite sure. Perhaps he
10 participated elsewhere. I don't know.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Among the victims, could you
12 tell us whether they were all people who had been arrested in arms or
13 whether they were also civilians?
14 A. All those people whom I found at Luka and I myself had no weapons
15 at all nor did any other people that I know. They were all in civilian
16 clothes. Some were even in their pyjamas.
17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In one of your statements, you
18 say that Blagojevic was accompanied by a man called Durkovic, a Chetnik.
19 Did he take part in this abuse, the abuse of detainees?
20 A. Major Djurk anovic is how he introduced himself. He was not in
21 the entourage of Mirko Blagojevic. He once came on his own, which is
22 interesting for one member of his force, this Djurkanovic, to enter so
23 freely among 200 people. He wore a camouflage uniform, and he had a
24 major's insignia and ranks on his shoulders, on his epaulettes. He told
25 us that he was a major by rank, Major Djurkanovic. He also delivered
1 political speeches to us to the effect that we did not need all this and
2 how he had helped other people who had been detained at Luka before us.
3 And, among other things, this Djurkanovic found some people who
4 hailed from Brezevo Polje, a Muslim, and he talked directly to him when
5 he was surrounded by these other Muslims. He said, You confirm that
6 there has been no killing here or maltreatment.
7 And the man did confirm it; but how true that was, I don't know.
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise, but did
9 Mirko Blagojevic ever call himself a Seselj's man or Seseljevci?
10 A. No, never.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So he was calling himself what
12 he was known as, being a member of the Serbian Radical Party?
13 A. We knew that he was the president of the Serbian Radical Party,
14 and he introduced himself as Vojvoda or Duke Mirko Blagojevic, not as
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did he -- did he -- when he came
17 to the Luka centre, was he in arms or was he in civilian clothes or was
18 he in uniform with weapons or was he in civilian clothes?
19 A. All his escorts wore camouflage uniforms, and they were armed.
20 He was the only one who did not have an automatic rifle, but a pistol at
21 his belt.
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] One last aspect. The mass
23 graves, the Brcko mass graves. At one point in time you mentioned these
24 mass graves. I would like to know whether you knew who were in these
25 mass graves. Do you have the identity or at least the ethnicity of the
1 victims in those mass graves?
2 A. I don't know. I heard and read subsequently that many of the men
3 had been in Luka with me together with me in May 1992 and in July 1992.
4 We were all together in Luka at the time, all those whose bodies were
5 subsequently exhumed, and we learned one name after another.
6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And could you tell us what
7 ethnicity these people were?
8 A. Mostly Muslim and an occasional Bosniak Croat.
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No Serbs?
10 A. I don't know of any, and I don't believe that there were any.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You say that Arkan's men were
12 also present in the conflict in Brcko. Do you know anything about the
13 relationship between the Chetniks headed by Blagojevic, who was the local
14 president of the Serbian Radical Party, and Arkan's men?
15 A. I'll tell you, but it was only later when I was liberated from
16 Luka and taken to Belgrade
17 took me out of Luka, that they had problems with Chetniks in Brcko. And
18 those problems resulted even in armed conflicts among them. I don't know
19 why. Was it as a result of their looting, or was it just a question of
20 power, who would be more powerful in Brcko at the time.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But who did the looting?
22 A. That same Rade Bozic told me that, the one who took me from Luka
23 on the 7th of July. I had two opportunities to meet him later on in
25 Captain Dragan, who also told me that they had a lot of problems with
1 members of the Serbian Chetnik Movement in Brcko.
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Which group did Rade Bozic
3 belong to? Maybe I didn't understand something.
4 A. He was a member of the Red Berets at the time. That was a
5 special unit called the Red Beret, and he wore a military police uniform
6 of the JNA. And the only distinctive feature was his Red Beret.
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no more
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Mr. Mussemeyer, you have 30 minutes.
11 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Thank you, Your Honour. Before I start, I would
12 like to have corrected a little mistake in -- on the record. Page 70,
13 line 8, is mentioned instead of Luka is mentioned Lugar, and that can
14 lead to misunderstanding. I think this has to be corrected.
15 Another thing --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you're absolutely right,
17 absolutely right.
18 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Before I start, I would like to have kind of
19 guidance from the Chamber because I'm also surprised by the decision to
20 put protective measures on this witness. I intended to use a letter
21 which was sent to the witness in 2008 and which was part of the Court
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's the way it is any way.
24 He has protective measures.
25 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I don't request this or I don't put it into
1 doubt, but I want to know if I can use this letter, given the fact that
2 he has protective measures. If not, I will not use it.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, let's take a
4 look at the letter. Could we have the letter.
5 MR. MUSSEMEYER: It is in the Court binder.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to see the letter as
7 well. I demand to see it.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which number?
9 MR. MUSSEMEYER: It has the document identification 0644 and then
10 5901. It should not be broadcasted as long as I don't know if I can use
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the OTP has also
13 submitted the document to me but without a signature, without a day.
14 There's nothing there. What am I supposed to do with a document like
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. I need to see
17 this document first. Could you give us the number again. My
18 fellow Judge is showing me 6074, but you're saying it's 0644. That's
20 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
22 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone is on.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We now see it on the screen under
24 the middle button on the left, but maybe your devices are different than
25 mine. It's on the screen, both in English and in Serbian.
1 MR. MUSSEMEYER: This is the letter I was referring to.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will consult with my
3 fellow Judges.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mussemeyer, this letter, as far as we can
6 determine, has nothing to do with the protective measures.
7 MR. MUSSEMEYER: So I am allowed to use it? That is what I take
8 from your answer?
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you can. You can use it.
10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: But I ask, when I use it, that it should not be
11 broadcasted, just to be on the safe side.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:
14 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Sorry, this has to be redacted because I was
15 using his name. I didn't think about it.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good start.
17 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
18 Q. Mr. Witness, I will refer to the statement you gave last year to
19 the OTP. Can you please confirm that the ethnic composition of Brcko
20 before the outbreak of the conflict was 44.4 per cent Muslims,
21 25.4 per cent Croats, 20.8 per cent Serbs, and 9.4 per cent Yugoslavs or
23 A. Yes. Maybe the percentages I provided are not absolutely
24 correct. There may be a slight discrepancy. But that would be
25 approximately the picture of the city at the time.
1 Q. And that the population of the town itself was 55.8 per cent
2 Muslims, 20 per cent Serbs, and 6.9 per cent Croats?
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the date? I
4 assume it is 1991.
5 MR. MUSSEMEYER: It is in paragraph 4 of the statement which we
6 tried to admit under 92 ter. The statement as far as I remember is from
7 the 12th of November, 2008, if I'm not mistaken, but I can check this.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My question related to the
9 census. A census was conducted in 1991, wasn't it?
10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Exactly.
11 Q. Mr. Witness, do you remember if political parties organised
12 rallies in the time between 1990 and 1992 and that politicians like
13 Karadzic, Krajisnik, Plavsic, Koljevic, Buha, and Vojislav Maksimovic
14 held speeches at rallies in Brcko?
15 A. Yes, they did. On the occasion of the establishment of the
16 Main Board of the Serbian Radical Party, and there was another rally
17 which was not political but it was an event when the Prositar [phoen]
18 association organised something in the culture hall. But then later on
19 that turned into a political meeting led by the people that you
21 Q. Do you remember that Radovan Karadzic on one of these occasions
22 said something like, Nobody has the right to separate the Serbs in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina from their motherland?
24 And Serbia
25 blood Serbs have spilled before and that this would never happen again?
1 A. Yes, that was in front of the culture hall. That was a rally or
2 the founding meeting of the Serbian Radical Party. They said by way of
3 introduction that they had nothing to hide, and that's how Mr. Karadzic
4 spoke about the events and about the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
5 Q. Has there also come a minister from Belgrade who said that nobody
6 has the right to separate the Serbian people across the Drina from
8 A. Yes. That was in the culture hall when the cultural association
9 Prositar [indiscernible] had their event, but that was later. And that
10 gentleman was the minister for all the Drinas across -- all the Serbs
11 across the Drina
12 either Cvijetic or Setinovic [phoen]. That's how he was introduced at
13 the beginning of his speech. And he did say during that speech that
14 nobody had the right to separate the Serbs from each other, and that the
15 Serbs would always help their brethren across the Drina and further
16 afield. He didn't mention the involvement of arms or military
17 involvement, but he did say that all sorts of assistance would be
18 extended to them.
19 Q. When you were travelling through the region, did you see signs
20 that said SAO Serbian autonomous district Semberija and Majevica or SAO
21 Serbian Krajina?
22 A. Yes. Before the war started in Brcko, maybe a month and a half
23 before that, the SAO standing for the Serbian autonomous province of
24 Semberija and Majevica covering the area from Brcko in the direction of
25 Bijeljina was already written all over the signposts. And there was the
1 Serbian autonomous province of Krajina
2 don't remember the names.
3 Q. Before the outbreak of the conflict, did you observe JNA
4 helicopters arriving and soldiers leaving the helicopter who were wearing
5 red berets?
6 A. On several occasions. The building where I live in Brcko is very
7 close to the barracks of the JNA. Actually, my balcony overlooks the
8 landing strip for the helicopters.
9 Q. Did you observe members of this unit training your neighbours in
10 self-defence and how to arrest people?
11 A. On several occasions. When my wife and I were walking, as I've
12 already told you that, that was very close to my building. And on
13 several occasions, the Red Berets have trained Ranko Cesic, Miso Cajevic,
14 a neighbour of mine Laza, and many other volunteers who volunteered and
15 who came of their own will to the barracks.
16 Q. Do you remember which date the two bridges across the Sava River
17 were blown up?
18 A. The 30th of April, 1992. It was approximately around half past
19 4.00 in the morning.
20 Q. And when did the actual fighting start in Brcko?
21 A. I did not observe anybody shooting from close range. I heard
22 explosions and detonations. I could hear skirmishes involving weapons,
23 and that was during the night on the 2nd of May, but not in the town
24 itself where I live. So sometime around the 3rd of May in the evening
25 things escalated and there were loud explosions, but I'm not sure whether
1 they could be heard in town or around the town. In any case, I would say
2 that an all-out conflict started around the 3rd of May.
3 Q. When you were going with your neighbour, do you remember, a
4 67-years-old woman, to a local market, what happened there, can you tell
6 A. On the 6th or the 7th of May, 1992, in the morning around 10.00
7 or 11.00, I happened to be close to the Brcko police station. And
8 there's a market there. Shooting started close to the market, so myself
9 and a neighbour of mine found shelter in a building. A friend of hers
10 took us to her apartment and then from the building -- from the window of
11 that building I saw that people were being executed across the road from
12 the building where I was. Those were men in camouflage uniforms with
13 caps on their hands [as interpreted]. They did that.
14 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. Registrar, before I come to the next
15 question, could you please show on the monitor the picture which is under
16 65 ter 4169.
17 Q. And, Mr. Witness, could you please tell us if you observed the
18 killing of civilians by men wearing camouflage uniforms?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Do you recognise the picture which is now shown on the monitor?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you observe the situation?
23 A. I did not see this particular situation.
24 Q. But you observed similar situations?
25 A. Yes. I saw a policeman in a similar uniform who was to the left
1 from this particular policeman. There is a wall there. He turned three
2 men facing the wall, and he shot at their heads from a very close range.
3 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. Registrar, could you please show on the
4 monitor the picture which has 65 ter 4066.
5 Q. And, Mr. Witness, can I ask you, do you know the man who is
7 A. I don't know.
8 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Before the picture is seen on the monitor, I
9 would already like to ask admission into evidence, and I can give you
10 additional information. This -- both pictures have been admitted in the
11 Krajisnik case under P6 and P8.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the Krajisnik
13 case, lorries and railway carriages brought documents to be admitted.
14 First of all, the witness has to confirm whether this is part of Brcko,
15 whether he can recognise the building, if he cannot recognise the man in
16 uniform. He has to tell us whether this building is actually in Brcko.
17 Whether this is Brcko at all.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is precisely the question
19 I was about to put.
20 Witness, according to you, is this taking place in Brcko, this
21 locality, or not?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the second picture we can
24 see three bodies. The first one which we saw in the first picture and
25 further away there are two bodies lying on the ground. In the first
1 photograph on the left-hand side there seemed to be a woman there. All
2 in all, there are approximately or at least four bodies.
3 I'm a little bit surprised, witness. The person who's shooting,
4 who is in blue, wearing a blue shirt, seemingly this is a policeman. You
5 don't know him? He comes from Brcko, doesn't he?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the man in the photo.
7 I don't know who he is.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
10 Microphone for the Presiding Judge.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
12 At the time, how many policemen were there in Brcko? There
13 weren't hundreds of them.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly. I don't know
15 the number. But I believe that they also mobilised reservists. There
16 could have been a hundred or so. I don't know their exact number.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall not belabour the point.
18 Registrar, please --
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, something occurred
20 to me, something that could be of assistance. Does Mr. Mussemeyer know
21 if this photo was ever shown in a previous case and admitted into the
22 evidence? I believe that that would be of some significance. It is not
23 impossible that the photo may have been used before.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, I think you
25 said that the photograph had been admitted in the Krajisnik case.
1 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Exactly. The first picture has been admitted
2 under P6 and the second under P8 in the Krajisnik case.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm asking because there were some
4 other cases dealing with crimes in Brcko, so I should like to know
5 whether this has been admitted into the case file previously where it
6 could have been more appropriate.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Seemingly these have been
8 admitted and have also been admitted in the Zupljanin case, Zupljanin and
9 Stanisic case. So we shall give two exhibit numbers to these two
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
12 continues] ... Ranko Cesic and Goran Jelesic cases, was it admitted in
13 those cases? That is what I should like Mr. Mussemeyer to tell us. It
14 is easy to admit it into the file when a man is on trial who never was in
15 Brcko, for instance, Krajisnik, et cetera. I shall like to know whether
16 this was admitted into the case file in the case of Goran Jelesic, who
17 confessed to the crime; and Ranko Cesic who actually bargained, plea
18 bargained with the OTP in order to be less severely punished.
19 Was it the case then.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you know that,
21 Mr. Mussemeyer?
22 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I cannot give you an answer to this at the
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Whatever the case may be, that
25 is relevant because Brcko is part of the indictment. So we shall admit
1 these two photographs since the witness has recognised these locations.
2 Registrar, please, can we have a number for these two
4 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ...
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, Brcko does not
6 feature in my indictment nor does Samac. This morning I re-read my
7 indictment yet once again and they don't. It's just pattern of behaviour
8 of conduct or possibly a joint criminal enterprise.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are quite right. That's
10 why we shall give these photographs two numbers.
11 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 4169 will be Exhibit Number P1042 and
12 65 ter 04066 will be Exhibit P1043.
13 MR. MUSSEMEYER: For your assistance, I have an additional
14 information. Both pictures have been tendered in the Krajisnik case with
15 the witness we have now here.
16 Q. My next question, Mr. Witness: When you were detained in
17 Elektro Brcko and you had to go through the city for working, did you see
18 many dead bodies lying in the city?
19 A. Yes, outside the Galeb hotel.
20 Q. I will come to another situation. You were describing us that
21 you were working on electric poles once which was about 50 metres high
22 and that you saw, observed, the offloading of 20 bodies from a
23 refrigerator truck. Do you remember this?
24 A. I do remember offloading bodies. I cannot say that there were
25 50 of them, because I did not count, so I do not know the exact number.
1 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. Registrar, could we please see the picture
2 which has the 65 ter 4224.
3 Q. Mr. Witness, is this the situation you observed?
4 A. This hole, yes, was there where I worked. But this was not the
5 situation I observed.
6 Q. This is correct because the picture was according to my
7 information taken the 6th and the 7th of May, 1992.
8 MR. MUSSEMEYER: But my question to the witness, and I think he
9 confirmed this, that he observed a similar situation.
10 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Witness?
11 A. That is correct.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I believe that the witness
13 could recognise this building, that this building is from Brcko; but as
14 he did not see this situation, there are no grounds upon which he can
15 recognise that this is a part of Brcko. On the basis of the woods here,
16 he could recognise that this is Brcko? And now the Prosecutor says that
17 he has seen or that he has observed similar situations. This might be
18 from Guinea-Bissau
19 of the Prosecutor.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, what entitles you to
21 say that these are the surroundings of Brcko?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see this little white
23 truck and this excavator on top of the earth, this little truck, this
24 van, came past actually at least twice by the electric company Brcko
25 every day. It is on that basis and also I saw, before, another
1 photograph here at the OTP's when they asked me on what basis I concluded
2 that this was the place where I worked at that time in Brcko, I explained
3 to the Judges that the street lights which are -- I was working with the
4 street lights which are near this hole. As Mr. Seselj says, perhaps one
5 could think that this is Guinea-Bissau
6 elements, I concluded that this is in Brcko because we had exactly the
7 same things in Brcko.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But this does not look like a
9 truck; it looks like a bus.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Seselj, this is a little
11 lorry, it is a little truck. And it also has a Red Cross mark on it,
12 this flag that you can see in front.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will not
14 admit this photograph.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Witness, I will come to the situation in the Luka camp. Did
21 you observe a person called Goran Jelesic at that time in Luka camp?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Do you remember a certain sentence which this Goran Jelesic said
24 that he has killed how many Muslims and Croats; do you remember the
1 A. 97. He came escorted by Kosta and Monika [as interpreted]. Was
2 he drunk or was he drugged, I don't know. He was brandishing, waving, a
3 pistol in one hand at he entered the hangar and he -- "fucked our
4 balija's mother." And he said, "I've killed 97 of you, and I shall kill
5 myself another 97 of you."
6 Q. Do you remember which nickname he gave to himself?
7 A. Adolf.
8 Q. Only Adolf or was there also another word before?
9 A. Adolf was -- was an association, of course, to Hitler. And that
10 meant that he was going to kill us balijas at Luka.
11 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, these are all the questions I
12 wanted to do in relation to the statement the witness has given to us,
13 and I orally ask that his statement would be admitted according to
14 Rule 92 ter because many questions were put to the witness but I think
15 for complete understanding it is necessary also to have his statement
17 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Many incompetent Prosecutors have
20 been seen in this courtroom, but I think that Mr. Mussemeyer is by far
21 the least competent. How can it be by 92 ter when we have a viva voce
22 witness, a live witness? So 92 ter cannot be applied at all when we have
23 a viva voce witness. 92 ter can be applied only when the witness is not
24 testifying viva voce.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have corrected this
1 automatically. The Prosecutor would like to have this statement
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I believe we should tell the
4 Prosecutor, we should tell the accused time and time again that he cannot
5 make assessments about the Prosecutor, particularly if these are adverse
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you tell us
8 how much time the Prosecutor still has?
9 You don't have any questions left? You finished?
10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I would like to elaborate the letter I was
11 mentioning at the beginning. I would only ask the witness if he knows
12 about it and what he can let us know about it.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, but if I'm not mistaken,
14 there was no date and signature on that. Could you develop this, tell us
15 more about it, please?
16 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I would like to have the answer from the
17 witness. Him -- I think this is more credible as I give you --
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mussemeyer, could I ask you for what purpose
19 you want to raise this letter with the witness? What is the relevance of
21 MR. MUSSEMEYER: That people have tried to put pressure on the
22 witness, and --
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: But --
24 MR. MUSSEMEYER: -- this goes also to his credibility.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, Mr. Mussemeyer, the issue of protective
1 measures is not up for discussion at this moment. And if you want to
2 test his credibility, I find it difficult to see how this letter would be
3 of any use in relation to testing his credibility.
4 MR. MUSSEMEYER: This is not the first time that things like this
5 happened, and I admit that there is no signature and no date on the
6 letter. But maybe the witness can tell us if he has received the letter
7 and what was the background of this. I don't want to give any of these
8 facts because it's not me to testify.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may put the question.
11 Please go ahead.
12 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I don't have any other questions.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's -- very well. Let's take
25 a break and then after the break Mr. Seselj will have 30 minutes.
1 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Court is back in session.
4 Mr. Seselj, you have 30 minutes.
5 Yes, Mr. Mussemeyer.
6 MR. MUSSEMEYER: It's only for the record. We again have
7 received the documents from the accused only five minutes ago, and they
8 are useless for us because we don't understand them. And I think -- I
9 ask that the letter we were discussing about is moved into evidence.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's the same for me as far as
12 the documents are concerned.
13 Mr. Seselj.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I accept Madam Lattanzi's
15 criticism, and now I say that Mr. Mussemeyer is one of the best
16 Prosecutors who ever appeared in this courtroom. He just makes an
17 inadvertent mistake occasionally so it happened this time also. And he
18 has been in this case for seven years so far, he could have learned the
19 Serbian language.
20 And another thing, I only have some auxiliary instruments for the
21 cross-examination. I do not have the documents according to the 65 ter
22 list. I'm now waiting for their translation. I'm waiting for the
23 translation of the two big books. They still have not been translated
24 after two and a half years. When my turn comes, I will surrender the
25 documents according to the 65 ter list. Do not worry.
1 As regards the admittance -- admission of this document, that is
2 absolutely impossible. I have instructed my legal advisor, Boris, to
3 check this, and we shall see whether any of my associates participated in
4 this matter or not. So it does not make any sense for this to be
5 admitted into the file because we don't have any proof. And what is this
6 proof of, in fact? Anyway.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. VS-1033, tell me, first of all, what is it
9 that you understand to be meant under the Serbian Chetnik Movement? What
10 does it encompass?
11 A. An armed formation, an armed unit, Mr. Seselj.
12 Q. How would you define the members of this movement? All those who
13 wear beards, Chetnik cockade, knives, ammunition, belts; how do you
14 identify members of this armed formation?
15 A. For instance, Vojvoda Mirko Blagojevic was clean-shaven, he was
16 neat in contrast to all the rest whom I saw in town.
17 Q. And by the way Mirko Blagojevic looked, you would never have
18 concluded that he was a Chetnik; right?
19 A. I might have. I might have, because all Chetniks in history, as
20 you know well and better than me, were not always bearded. Excuse me, if
21 I may continue. Their characteristic in history has been, was - as I
22 learned in the history subject - was that they had beards.
23 Q. All right. Tell me this: What does this mean for you? Were all
24 the Chetniks whom you saw in Brcko Mirko Blagojevic's men, to simplify
1 A. They -- they were not, not members of that detachment.
2 Q. So you did see other men who you thought were Chetniks but were
3 not connected in any way to Mirko Blagojevic; am I right?
4 A. I don't know what the command was like, Mr. Seselj, whether Mirko
5 was the commander in charge of all of them. I don't know that. But I
6 did see members of the Serbian Chetnik Movements from different regions
7 of Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time. I could tell that by the flag.
8 Q. But you do not know that there was a formal organisation that was
9 called the Serbian Chetnik Movements? You saw a group of people with a
10 black flag with a skull and bones on the flag or you see a cockade and
11 then you conclude that they are Chetniks. And then you think that they
12 are members of the Serbian Chetnik Movement; am I right?
13 A. Yes, you are right.
14 Q. Thank you. Good that we clarify that. Do you know that the
15 Serbian Radical Party had a chapter which was called the Serbian Chetnik
17 A. I'm not a hundred per cent sure of that, but yes I do believe
18 that it did have such a chapter which was called the Serbian Chetnik
19 Movement as a sort of a fraction or an armed formation, a part of it.
20 Q. Can we then make a distinction between that - I would call
21 it section - chapter, of the Serbian Radical Party which was called the
22 Serbian Chetnik Movement and that which you consider the Serbian Chetnik
23 Movement in the broader sense?
24 A. As I have told the Judges and I reiterate and tell you again, I
25 do not think that all members of the Serbian Radical Party in Bosnia
3 Q. Fine. But I would like to know something else. Were all those
4 whom you considered members of the Serbian Chetnik Movement members of
5 the Serbian Radical Party or of its section called the Serbian Chetnik
7 A. Mr. Seselj, I'm trying to understand you. The only people that
8 I -- the only one who I know about at the time was Mirko Blagojevic from
9 Bijeljina. He belonged to the Serbian Chetnik Movement, and he was a
10 duke, a Vojvoda as you are yourself aware.
11 Q. All right. Did you ever hear that there was a Serbian Radical
12 Party in Brcko when you were there?
13 A. I did not see it established formally, but I did know a
14 gentleman. I perhaps was even friends with him before the war. He
15 himself said that he was a member of the Serbian Radical Party in Brcko.
16 That's what he said. I don't know whether it was actually so.
17 Q. I never heard that we had a Serbian Radical Party there before
18 the war. We did have one in Bijeljina, but not in Brcko. In Brcko it
19 was only in 1994 that we formed one.
20 A. I believe that you are right there, but I can tell you this: One
21 of the sympathisers as the man himself said of the party I knew and he
22 said that he was a member of the Serbian Radical Party.
23 Q. All right. You gave a number of statements about what you had
24 experienced in Brcko in May 1992 and at the beginning of June; is that
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You gave a statement to the Danish Helsinki Committee on the
3 25th of May, 1993; do you recall that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. There you described numerous crimes, but in just one place you
6 say that Mirko Blagojevic from Bijeljina, with his Chetniks, was in
7 Brcko. You do not ascribe a single crime or anything bad to him. And
8 when you described the crimes, you attribute them to Arkan's men, to
9 Mauzer; and now do you mention here Goran Jelesic? I'm not quite sure.
10 I cannot look for it now. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes. As I told you before, when the Trial Chamber asked me and
12 when Mr. Prosecutor asked me, all that I saw Mirko Blagojevic and his men
13 do was the incident which happened when he delivered us this speech at
14 Luka. I was not affected then and when they beat up the other prisoners.
15 Q. I have read all your statements. It was the first time today
16 that you say that Mirko Blagojevic brought biscuits and cigarettes,
17 treated you to these there. This is never mentioned in any of your
18 previous statements in these -- all these cases that you testified in.
19 A. Yes, it is mentioned, Mr. Seselj. It is.
20 Q. Let us wager a bet here. If this is proven by the Prosecutor, I
21 will confess to all the crimes that I'm charged with and I also -- I
22 challenge Mr. Mussemeyer to this.
23 So when you were talking with the Danish Helsinki Committee, you
24 never mentioned anything bad that could be attributed to
25 Mirko Blagojevic. We agree there, right?
1 Before this statement that you gave to the Danish Helsinki
2 Committee in 1992 --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Have you found it, Mr. Mussemeyer?
4 MR. MUSSEMEYER: No, I don't refer to this. But I wanted to
5 remind you that the witness in his statement he gave to the OTP says
6 related to the statement he gave to the Danish Helsinki Committee --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't remind us of that. You had
8 ample time. We'll come to that, Mr. Mussemeyer. You don't have the
9 right to do this --
10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: [Previous translation continues] ... use this,
11 then, because the witness said --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm using everything that is useful
13 to me. Don't ask me why I used this. I can use whatever. I am very
14 sovereign in my defence, and only the Trial Chamber can put objections of
15 this nature to me.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, what are the
17 grounds for your objection, please?
18 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Because the witness said in his statement he
19 gave to the OTP and it is in number 1:
20 "I must point out that many facts in the record of this
21 interview," referring to the interview to the Danish Helsinki Committee,
22 "are incorrect due to the fact and the fact that I never signed that
23 record since I received a copy of it in English a long time after the
24 interview was held. I do not consider it to be my statement."
25 And that should be on the record. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we should look at
2 the record to see that it is a trick by the OTP against
3 Frederick Harhoff. They put it in the statement, and they gave it to the
4 witness to sign. Discrepancy between the statement given to the
5 Danish Helsinki Committee and the first statement given to the OTP
6 consist only in the numbers of killed, but the OTP is trying to influence
7 Mr. Harhoff so as to make Mr. Harhoff take a negative stance towards me.
8 Sometimes Mr. Harhoff is aware of that, sometimes he is not. And what
9 Mr. Mussemeyer is doing is absolutely pointless, although he's the best
10 Prosecutor in this OTP.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness, do you remember that the statement you provided to the
13 Danish Helsinki Committee already in 1992, before that you provided a
14 statement to the military security service of the JNA?
15 A. Never. I never provided a statement to the military security --
16 military security service of the JNA.
17 Q. That statement is on two pages?
18 A. The only thing is that I made a record that Captain Dragan
19 insisted on.
24 Q. Okay, okay. Let's take it easy. That statement got into the
25 hands of the military security services?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. As your statement, which you signed?
3 A. No, I didn't sign anything.
4 Q. How come you didn't sign it?
5 A. The man never asked me to sign it, Mr. Seselj.
6 Q. First of all, you said --
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] Slowly. Please slow down.
8 Please slow down.
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I am on my feet because I am
10 informed that the accused is in the -- that the witness is using his
11 first name when he is answering questions, and it doesn't reflect in the
12 English translation. So I don't know how quite we deal with this, but it
13 seems that we may need a redaction of the B/C/S version of the live feed
14 from the court today.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't hear that, but they are
16 doing it on purpose in order to disturb the transmission. I am
17 interested in public trial, not in a private trial. You said that --
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, Mr. Seselj, you
19 should not mention the first name of the witness. It seems that --
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, never. I did not.
21 Although Mr. Mussemeyer is the best Prosecutor and sometimes he makes a
22 mistake of this sort, I'm a bit younger by at least 30 years and such
23 mistakes never happen to me.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You did not enter this first
1 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Tell me this, is it true --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I proceed?
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, did you say your first
5 name? Did you mention your first name? Can you confirm this?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's redact this
8 then. Thank you.
9 Mr. Seselj, please proceed.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would like to say that this is
11 what the Prosecutor said. He said exactly that. He never said that the
12 accused had said anything. He said the witness pronounced his own name,
13 his first name. That's all he said.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. My fellow
15 Judge Lattanzi is absolutely right.
16 Please proceed.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, very well, I've been
19 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Is it true that when you were interviewed on that occasion and
21 that that was recorded there, you said that nobody had beaten you
22 personally and that everything [as interpreted] treated you fairly? Is
23 that what you stated and was that recorded?
24 A. I did say that I had been beaten, but it was not recorded.
25 Q. So you said that you had been beaten but that was not recorded?
1 A. Yes, I was beaten.
2 Q. Okay. You're saying that you were beaten. But when you spoke to
3 them, did you tell them that you had been beaten?
4 A. With whom, Mr. Seselj?
5 Q. You say with Captain Dragan. What was the name of the other
6 officer who was with you who took you to Captain Dragan?
7 A. Rade Bozic.
8 Q. Rade Bozic, was he present when that record was made?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Only Captain Dragan was there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In what capacity did he make that record, who was he then? That
13 was in Zvornik?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Where was it then?
16 A. In Belgrade
17 Q. Why did you go to him there?
20 Q. Who brought you from Zvornik to him, to Serbia?
21 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I think --
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need another redaction, line
23 23, page 98. I beg you both to slow down. Slow down. You are speaking
24 much too fast. You think we know your language perfectly, but that's the
25 problem; we don't, unfortunately. It takes time to learn this language.
1 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Who took you to Captain Dragan?
3 A. Rade Bozic took me from Luka, and I met Captain Dragan on that
4 same day in Zvornik.
5 Q. But I just said that it was in Zvornik and you said, No, not in
6 Zvornik, in Beogradjanka. You met Captain Dragan in Zvornik, and Captain
7 Dragan allegedly personally took you to Belgrade; is that correct?
8 A. No. He did not personally take me, but we shared the same
9 vehicle and a journalist of illustrated politics. And Rade Bozic was
10 also in the same car. And that's when, together with them, I went to
12 was waiting for me with some friends.
13 Q. Did you provide this statement in the golden oar?
14 A. No, two days later I met Captain Dragan, and then he said, Come
15 to me to Beogradjanka building.
16 Q. Did you tell him that you had been beaten?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. So how come that wasn't recorded?
19 A. I don't know, Mr. Seselj.
20 Q. Very well then. And why didn't you say to Mr. Harhoff and the
21 Danish Helsinki Committee anything about Mirko Blagojevic and the alleged
22 Radicals who had ill treated the prisoners?
23 A. One more thing, Mr. Seselj, Mr. Prosecutor here is right. Not
24 only in the statement that you have was it where I distanced myself from
25 that testimony, but in my four previous testimonies I repeated every time
1 that I did not sign the statement that was compiled at the
2 Danish Helsinki
3 Q. Okay. Let's move on. There is a statement that you did sign.
4 On the 4th and 5th of April, 1995, you spoke to the Prosecutors of
5 The Hague Tribunal, and you provided a statement on a total of 13 pages,
6 and you signed that statement in 1995. In that statement - I'm looking
7 at it - on the 13 pages of this statement you don't mention
8 Mirko Blagojevic or his Chetniks. Nowhere in this big huge statement.
9 You only mentioned a Chetnik by the name of Enver, who carved a cross on
10 Ibrahim Mulagovic's [phoen] forehead. You don't say that he had anything
11 to do with Mirko Blagojevic. You don't mention Mirko Blagojevic. You
12 don't mention the Serbian Radical Party or my name. This is your
13 statement provided to The Hague Tribunal in 1995. The Trial Chamber has
14 it, the OTP has it, and you signed it. Where is Mirko Blagojevic in
16 A. Yes, you're right, I did sign it.
17 Q. But no Mirko Blagojevic?
18 A. Can I tell you why Mirko Blagojevic is not there?
19 Q. Go on, then.
20 A. Mirko Blagojevic did not beat me personally. Chetniks didn't
21 beat me. I never said that. When people ask me things, I answer.
22 Q. But you did not provide the statement only about who beat you.
23 You also provided a statement about who beat the others, who ill treated
24 the prisoners, who killed the prisoners. And you told everything in the
25 statement. But in the entire statement, there is no reference to
1 Mirko Blagojevic, the Serbian Radical Party, or the Serbian Chetnik
2 Movement. In the entire statement nowhere do I find those things.
3 A. Yes, I agree, you are absolutely right. Which doesn't mean that
4 what I have just said today before the Trial Chamber, before the OTP, and
5 before you is not correct.
6 Q. I'm not interested in that. I'm not interested whether it's
7 correct or not. I want to speak the language of facts.
8 A. You're right.
9 Q. You have -- go on and try to convince somebody else, not me.
10 A. You're absolutely right, Mr. Seselj. I apologise.
11 Q. I'm not here to commend you. I'm here to refute your testimony.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And I'm using all the weapons that I have at my disposal to
14 refute your testimony.
15 A. I agree with you, Mr. Seselj.
16 Q. In the record, Captain Dragan's record, there is nothing about
17 it. In your statement to the Danish Helsinki Committee there is nothing
18 about it, but there is a reference, one reference, that Mirko Blagojevic
19 was in Brcko. In your 1995 statement to the OTP investigators, not a
20 single reference to it. On the 15th of May, 1996, you gave The Hague
21 investigators a supplementary statement. Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes, they asked me about that statement, Mr. Seselj. I never
23 signed it. I did talk to the investigators in connection with that
24 statement, and I said if they wanted to speak more about it we could do
1 Q. Whether you signed it or not, this is something I won't go into
3 A. I did not.
4 Q. But, however, the OTP at The Hague submitted this to me as a
5 supplement to your statement.
6 A. I would sign it right now in front of you.
7 Q. Do not sign anything in front of me, please do not sign, for
8 heaven's sake, my papers.
9 A. You are quite right, Mr. Seselj.
10 Q. In this supplement, you never make any reference to either
11 Mirko Blagojevic or to the Serbian Radical Party or to me or to the
12 Radicals or to the Serbian Chetnik Movement; in no place do you make any
13 such reference?
14 A. You are quite right.
15 Q. Then we have 2008, well into my trial, in other words, The Hague
16 OTP calls you, and the OTP at The Hague prepares in advance a statement
17 for you to sign; right?
18 A. I don't know that they prepared any statement in advance for that
20 Q. In 2008, that was on the 11th of December, 2008, do you remember
21 that encounter?
22 A. I did not have a contact then. I received this document, this
23 statement that I was supposed to read, and to sign every page of that
24 statement, you're right.
25 Q. How did you get it?
1 A. By mail.
2 Q. The OTP at The Hague
3 post, and you signed every page and then sent it back?
4 A. Yes, you are quite right.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen of the Trial Chamber,
6 Judges, I hope that you heard this. This statement under 92 bis was
7 drawn up by the OTP, sent to the witness by mail for him to sign every
8 page and to send it back. This is what the witness has just said.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to read it, and if I agreed
10 with everything in it, to sign the way you have described it. And I did
11 say that I would do so.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this is important.
13 You're saying -- you're telling us - and you're under oath - that you
14 received a statement dated 11 December 2008
15 in English or in your own language? In English obviously?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Bosnian Serbo-Croat, yes.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
18 continues] ... language, in your own language, several pages long, you
19 read it and signed it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And certified by a notary
21 public. This is what the officer of the Tribunal, the employee of the
22 Tribunal, said I should do. And I did so. I had it thus authenticated.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have this authentication by a
24 public -- notary public in a city in a foreign country in which this
25 witness probably lives. I shall not mention the name.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This has never happened in any
3 trial as far as I know, namely, that the OTP prepared a so-called
4 consolidated statement under Rule 92 bis and sent it by mail without any
5 conversation, without any consultations, without any consideration to the
6 witness, with the annotation: If you agree, sign it and send it back.
7 And a while ago the Prosecutor wanted you to admit this into the
8 file. Now, the first thing in the statement --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.
10 Witness, it seems that this statement is different from what you
11 said earlier on a number of points. So why did you sign it? You could
12 have disagreed with it. You could have not signed it.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I probably supplemented
14 it by describing this incident in Luka when Mirko Blagojevic's men came.
15 I have given so many statements that -- and I believe that I described
16 this orally many times here in the courtroom. And I stand behind what I
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, if I understand you
19 correctly, you testified before the Helsinki Commission and did not
20 mention Mirko Blagojevic or anything of the sort. Then later you were
21 interviewed by Captain Dragan and there was another statement but you
22 don't mention it. And in 2008 suddenly we have a statement with other
23 elements. Is this what happened?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As regards the statement to the
25 Helsinki Committee, I did have a conversation with them, an interview
1 with them, and Mr. Harhoff was present. I talked with Mr. Sisby, and
2 Mr. Harhoff was with my wife outside that office. He was not present at
3 all when I was having this interview with a so-called interpreter. She
4 could not speak either good English -- Bosnian, Serbo-Croat, or Danish.
5 I asked after the conversation, Should I sign anything? And they told
6 me, This is not a document for any signature, any sign. If need be I
7 shall send you the document.
8 After a certain time, I got that document in English. I regret
9 the fact that I do not have these copies, because I tried to rectify the
10 things which I then understood.
11 As regards the statement to Captain Dragan, I tell you that was
12 done in his office, and I don't (redacted)
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need another redaction,
15 Mr. Registrar. Very well. I see that we're running out of time.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am in a panic as to whether I
17 shall have enough time.
18 How much time do I have left ?
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We still have 20 minutes before
20 7.00, and I don't know how much time you have left. I'll tell you in a
21 minute. 10 to 15 minutes -- 12 minutes. I was right. 12 minutes.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Little time, very little time.
23 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Now, look here. You are far away. The OTP is here at The Hague
25 The OTP does its work and discharges conscientiously its duty because
1 they are conscientious and honourable men. But the OTP has a need in
2 this trial which it is conducting against me. They put their need on
3 paper without you in your absence and they send it to you and they tell
4 you, Read this and sign it if you agree.
5 Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, without you, without having talked to you, the OTP in the
8 first paragraph actually swoops upon Mr. Harhoff and says that many facts
9 in the record from the statement to the Danish Helsinki Committee are
10 incorrect. And they send this to you. And now you receive it, how
11 carefully you read it - I will not go into that, maybe you did, maybe you
13 Is that right?
14 A. No, that is not exactly the way it was, Mr. Seselj.
15 Q. Anyway, you signed it and you sent it to the OTP. And the OTP is
16 now proposing this to be directly admitted into the file under 92 ter.
17 Fortunately, the Trial Chamber did not admit it.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Think, Judges, how many other
19 things have already been admitted under this rule in this way -- well,
20 anyway. This is a finished thing. It is a done thing.
21 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Now, the OTP introduces Mirko Blagojevic for the first time in
23 the penultimate paragraph, that is, paragraph 42 --
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: Sorry, Your Honours, the witness should be
25 allowed to explain how it actually was that the statement was made. The
1 accused put a proposition to him and the witness say, No, that is not how
2 it was.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have the time for that.
4 Let somebody else ask that. The OTP should have done that.
5 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
6 Q. On the 22nd of October, 2009, you provided a new statement. You
7 added some things. But, again, you never mentioned either
8 Mirko Blagojevic or myself or the Serbian Radical Party. You did mention
9 a Chetnik flag that you saw somewhere, but that is neither here nor
11 Sir, these are all your statements that you provided to
12 The Hague
13 Can I publicly say which cases those all were? Because you were not
14 protected in those case and you are protected here. May I mention them?
15 Maybe it will reveal his identity. Am I allowed?
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into closed session.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, then I give up.
18 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
19 Q. No, no. I'm not going to ask you about what you said --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.
21 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I'm terribly sorry to interrupt, but Mr. Seselj
22 said that it was in this statement that the witness the first time
23 mentioned Mirko Blagojevic. If you look carefully at paragraph 32, every
24 time when he mentioned Mirko Blagojevic there is at the end of the
25 sentence the source when he mentioned it the first time. And he
1 mentioned Mirko Blagojevic already in testimonies in other trials. So
2 it's quite possible that the first time in the statement he mentioned him
3 because his statements from before were from 1995, but in the meantime
4 the witness has testified at least three times in other cases, and there
5 he mentioned Mirko Blagojevic. You can check this every time when you
6 check the source given in paragraph 42. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not true what Mr. Mussemeyer is
8 saying is not true. Look at paragraph 42, Your Honours. It says about
9 Mirko Blagojevic. Him and his escorts introduced themselves as Serbian
10 Chetniks and Radicals. And after that there is a reference. On the
11 4th of February, 2004, in one case on page 477.
12 And then his men arrived in the camp several times and ill
13 treated and beat the prisoners. You won't find that in none of the four
14 testimonies, and there's not even a reference like in paragraph 42. This
15 is a lie, and this is the OTP's trick. Maybe Mr. Mussemeyer doesn't know
16 that because he is a very capable OTP, but somebody else may have plotted
17 this. You won't find that in none of the four testimonies. And I don't
18 want to move into a private session --
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, that is enough.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do you want me to stop? Okay, I'll
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You have understood what I am
23 saying, to always talk about the Prosecutor, whether he's good or bad,
24 you are making fun of us.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mrs. Lattanzi, I have established
1 some things and I would like to pin-point them. And I would like to make
2 the strongest possible impression on the general public because I believe
3 that this is the fundamental part of these proceedings, what has just
4 happened --
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you are talking to a
6 judicial Bench, not to the public at large. We are not making speeches
7 to the public at large here.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mrs. Lattanzi, I am addressing you,
9 the Trial Chamber, and I am also addressing the general public because
10 you are trying me and the general public is trying you. And it is not
11 enough for justice to be administered here. The general public has to
12 gain the impression that justice is indeed administered here. And I
13 would like to remind you of this principle. You are trying me, the
14 general public is trying you. Who is going to --
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] We are very familiar with that
16 principle. I shall not respond anymore because we are in a hurry.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Okay. I have very little time. Can you remember very precisely
20 when was it that Mirko Blagojevic came to the Luka camp?
21 A. Let's say that it was on the 29th or the 30th of May.
22 Q. The 29th or the 30th of May?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On what occasion?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Did you hear that a member of his unit, Branislav Filipovic,
2 Sumar, was killed in the month of May during the battle for Brcko?
3 A. Yes, I heard it from the local Serbs who worked with me.
4 Q. When did that happen? Can you be very precise?
5 A. I heard that it was on the 15th or the 17th of May. I don't know
7 Q. The dead body of Branislav Filipovic, Sumar, remained on the
8 Muslim side; the Muslims got hold of his dead body; right?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Do you know that his dead body was exchanged?
11 A. No, I don't know that.
12 Q. Let's look at the document --
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, not today but at a
14 later stage I would like the Prosecutor to tell me why the stamp of the
15 notary public of a state I shall not mention is dated the
16 24th of March, 2010. I would like someone to explain this to me, why it
17 says 24th of March, 2010. I would like a very accurate explanation for
19 That said, please proceed.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone not on.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now could the usher please put
23 a very short document on the ELMO, or, rather, put it to the witness.
24 This is Mirko Blagojevic's statement. The OTP and the Trial Chamber
25 already have it. This is Mirko Blagojevic's statement. It's very short.
1 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Would you please be so kind and read it aloud.
3 A. The whole statement?
4 Q. It's not long.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. If you are up to it; if not, I can read it.
7 A. Yes, I can do it.
8 "I Mirko Blagojevic born on the 1st of August, 1956
9 Q. You can skip the personal data. Let's go to the statement
11 A. "Statement, the company which I commanded was called the Serbian
12 Chetnik detachment and was part of the Territorial Defence at the SAO of
13 Semberija and Majevica. We participated in the fighting for the
14 liberation of Brcko from the 3rd to the 17th of May, 1992. My unit
15 participated in breaking through the corridor towards Obudovac and
16 consolidating positions at the sector of Ivici as well as the expansion
17 of liberated territory at the sector of Klanac and the stretch of the
18 shoe factory Izvor. The unit had about 100 people. Most of the people
19 in the unit were members of the Serbian Radical Party from Bijeljina, and
20 there were some from other parties as well as those who were not members
21 of any party. But at that time it did not matter at all who came from
22 which party. What was primary was the struggle, and the Chetnik Movement
23 is the common tradition of the entire Serbian people.
24 "In my unit there was not a single volunteer from Serbia
25 returned from Brcko on the 17th of May because there was a certain truce
1 and there was also a conflict between me and Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer, which
2 went back to the time of the liberation of Bijeljina. Mauzer was a
3 member of Arkan's volunteer guard, and we could not -- we just could not
4 agree on participation in concerted actions, and that is why, in order to
5 avoid an armed clash between our units in agreement with the command of
6 the Territorial Defence, we decided to go back to Bijeljina.
7 "I was at the Luka camp only once on the 16th of May, 1992.
8 Namely, a member of my unit Filipovic Branislav called Sumar was killed
9 in Brcko and the Muslims got hold of his dead body and asked 20 of their
10 own in exchange. With the Muslim side by radio communications, we agreed
11 on this exchange. I addressed the town command, and the command decided
12 that 20 Muslim prisoners should be taken over from the Luka camp and
13 the -- handed over to the Muslim side and that the Muslim side should
14 deliver the dead body of our killed combatant.
15 "We returned to Brcko on the 12th of June, 1992, at the
16 invitation of the Army of Republika Srpska, i.e., at the call of
17 Captain Seho vac. Then they assigned us in such a way that we could not
18 have any contact with" --
19 Q. Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer.
20 A. "... nor any concerted actions because the command was mindful of
21 this in view of the fact that it was generally known that we as members
22 of the Serbian Radical Party had clashed with the -- with Arkan's men
23 already in Bijeljina. I knew Mile Gatarevic, called Bolero, from Brcko,
24 and I know that he was not a member of the Serbian Radical Party and that
25 he was not in my unit" --
1 Q. Very well. What is your impression? Is this a truthful
2 statement on the part of Mirko Blagojevic?
3 A. Perhaps. In all that, I would not agree that they returned from
4 Brcko on the 17th of May because I saw him at a later date after that.
5 Q. Okay. I'll give you the proof that he returned on the
6 17th of May.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please quickly see
8 document 3. This is the death certificate of Branislav Filipovic, Sumar,
9 and the date of his burial in Bijeljina. Do you have it? The Judges
10 have it. This is the death certificate for Branislav Filipovic, Sumar,
11 proving that the burial was on the 16th of May. All members of Mirko
12 Blagojevic's unit headed by him attended the funeral.
13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Do you see the death certificate?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So Mirko Blagojevic had to be in the Luka camp before the
17 16th of May to take over the 20 imprisoned Muslims, to deliver them to
18 the Muslim side, and to take over the dead body of his soldier. So it
19 could not have been on the 29th of May. It could -- it had to be before
20 the 16th of May. And now you see Mirko Blagojevic came to the Luka camp
21 to take over 20 Muslim prisoners to be exchanged, and to the rest of you
22 he brought cigarettes and cookies and he talked to you in a very
23 civilised manner with a lot of respect. He addresses you as brethren.
24 He takes 20 prisoners away. And you say that his men subsequently came
25 back to beat you. You really don't think that I will believe you. Maybe
1 the Trial Chamber will believe you, the OTP will believe you, but how can
2 you think that I can believe you?
3 A. Mr. Seselj, it seems that you were not listening. I never said
4 that I was in Luka on the 17th of May. I was taken to Luka on the
5 26th of May, 1992, and I'm telling you what I saw in Luka. And that was
6 on the 29th or the 30th of May. Mr. Mirko Blagojevic and his escorts
7 were in Luka.
8 Q. You never stated that before. You have just made it up in order
9 to grovel up to the OTP of The Hague Tribunal. And it is only in your
10 statement that you did not provide yourself. It was done for you and
11 sent to you by mail. And in none of the four previous cases did you say
12 that Mirko Blagojevic was in Luka on the 29th or the 30th.
13 I'm now giving you Mirko Blagojevic's statement testifying to his
14 only arrival at Luka. Let's look at another thing. Let's look at the
15 book by Jusuf Trbic. Did you ever hear of Jusuf Trbic?
16 A. No, never.
17 Q. He's a Muslim intellectual who published a book entitled "The
18 Masters of the Darkness."
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please finish your question.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is my last question,
21 Mr. President.
22 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Let's look at the document, this is document number 2, six pages,
24 but we won't read them. The title page, Jusuf Trbic, "The Masters of the
25 Darkness," and then on the second page you see the name of the publisher.
1 And then we see that the publisher was the Kujundzic company based in
2 Lukavac Tuzla. Do you agree?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you agree that that's where the book was published?
5 And he gives a Muslim perspective of the war. But what makes it
6 interesting is this: On page 5, the last paragraph speaks about the
7 burial in the "sehid", burial ground, in Bijeljina, and he says:
8 "Among all the political parties, only members of the Serbian
9 Radical Party, Mr. Vojislav Seselj, was there ..."
10 Can you see that? And he's a Muslim writer. Do you see on the
11 sixth page, that's where he says or he announces the protest of the
12 Serbian Chetnik Movement of North-Eastern Bosnia, signed by
13 Mirko Blagojevic, against the crimes against Bijeljina, Muslims in the
14 night between 24th and 25th of September, when 14 members of the Sarajlic
15 family and 8 members of the Sejmenovic family were killed.
16 Do you see how harsh Mirko Blagojevic is in his protest? Do you
17 see that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And it is brought by a Muslim author in his book recognising
20 Mirko Blagojevic's protest. And you are telling us here that
21 Mirko Blagojevic's men beat prisoners in the Luka camp?
22 A. Yes, they did, Mr. Seselj.
23 Q. You made it up completely. You made it up subsequently to please
24 the OTP in order to please the OTP because they don't have any proof
25 against either me or the Serb radical. They want to find anything. And
1 we don't see it in your previous statements; we only see it in one
2 statement of yours. You wanted to be a protected witness only in these
3 proceedings; before that, you testified in open court. I believe that
4 you're more truthful there. Only because you were telling lies you
5 wanted to testify under protection measures because you're ashamed of the
6 lies that you've told us today.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, would you like to
8 respond that you are making a false statement, false testimony?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 Mr. Seselj, I'm not here either to please the Prosecutor or
11 anybody. I want to please the Judges and you yourself. Whatever I said
12 before this Tribunal in the past is the truth. It is not my intention,
13 Mr. Seselj, to accuse the Serbian people for what happened in Bosnia
14 is my intention, if you will, to participate in assisting the Tribunal to
15 learn the truth.
16 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Why did you ask for protection measures today and never before?
18 A. Because, Mr. Seselj, because members of your party in (redacted) still
19 to this very day most of them are either criminals or people with limited
20 memories, (redacted)
22 (redacted) is a small place, Mr. Seselj, everything travels -- every news
23 travels fast there. And you know very well that you're politically very
24 powerful in (redacted).
25 Q. How can you can be powerful politically in (redacted), because there's
1 nobody but criminals in my party there?
2 A. Not only criminals, there are other people there. But most of
3 them are criminals and radical elements.
4 Q. You're a clever person, a smart person. You're saying that I'm
5 politically powerful in (redacted) and everybody in my party is criminal.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you see this, Judges, how can I
7 be powerful if only the worst criminals are in my party? How can I be
8 politically powerful then? Criminals are somewhere else, and criminals
9 are false witnesses. Bear that in mind.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we are stopping
12 Witness, you must stay where you are because you've been granted
13 a protective measure. I would like to thank you for having come to
14 testify at the request of the Trial Chamber.
15 I know, Mr. Mussemeyer, that you wanted to take the floor for a
16 few minutes. Can you take the floor in the presence of the witness, or
17 do we need to drop the blinds and the witness needs to leave the
19 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I just have two little issues. The first is
20 your question how it comes that the notary has a date given of March of
21 this year. If you look at what is written there, it says that it's the
22 commission expiry. Above the last line, there is the date 11/12/08
23 I think this is a misunderstanding. He signed -- the notary signed it
24 on -- in November 2008, and his commission expires at March of this year.
25 And, with your permission, I would like to ask the witness only
1 one question in re-direct.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, there can be no re-direct. You
3 send him your questions by mail.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is no re-direct after the
5 questions of the Judges.
6 I'd like to turn to my colleagues and confirm this. So there is
7 no re-direct.
8 Mr. Marcussen, I thought you wanted to say something concerning a
9 housekeeping matter.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, I think in light of the time, we
11 don't need to go into these matters today. I can wait or address them in
12 another way. But I would say this, though. It has been suggested today
13 that the Prosecution has somehow fabricated a statement and sent it to
14 the witness for him to sign. That is incorrect, and the Prosecution will
15 look into this. As we cannot re-direct the witness on this, we may be
16 presenting other evidence to show how this statement came into being.
17 But the Prosecution has not just somehow sent the statement off by -- and
18 instructed the witness to sign the statement. That is incorrect, and it
19 was improper the way this was put by the accused.
20 MR. MUSSEMEYER: May I add half a sentence. I remember --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not say that the witness said
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.
24 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I remember that the statement went back and
25 forth several times because the witness made corrections to the -- to
1 details of the statement. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 To finish off, we have already overstepped our time. We have
4 four witnesses left, not five, four. We are currently checking their
5 state of health, and as soon as one of them can come and testify, he will
6 take the stand. But I would like to be extremely clear. If the medical
7 reports are such that and the experts say that these witnesses cannot
8 come and testify, then the -- then Rule 92 quater will apply. Everything
9 rests on the assessment of the physicians for the moment.
10 The court stands adjourned.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.