1 Tuesday, 6 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please call the
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is case number IT-03-67-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
10 This is July -- Tuesday, July 6, and I welcome the
11 representatives of the OTP, Mr. Seselj, and everyone helping us.
12 Today's hearing will be devoted to a videolink with a witness, a
13 witness who is in Belgrade
14 before this, I have an urgent problem to solve.
15 Could we please move into closed session, Registrar.
16 [Closed session]
11 Pages 16161-16172 redacted. Closed session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we are currently in
23 open session. Can you give me your first name, last name, and date of
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Nenad Jovic. I was born
1 on the 2nd of October, 1957, in Radalj, near Mali Zvornik.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current occupation
3 or do you not have a job at the moment?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now my request for an invalid's
5 pension is being processed, so I'm unemployed at the moment.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since you have the solemn
7 declaration in your hands, I shall ask you to read it out, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I stand up?
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you can, you may stand up.
10 Otherwise, you may remain seated.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
13 and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: NENAD JOVIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 [Witness testified via videolink]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir, you may sit
19 Sir, I shall explain to you how this hearing will unfold. The
20 hearing will last two days. The Judges, whom you can see on the screen,
21 will put questions to you. We have planned an hour and a half questions,
22 i.e., 30 minutes per Judge. Once this is finished, the Prosecutor will
23 put questions to you, and the Prosecutor will have one hour and a half.
24 Mr. Seselj will also have one hour and a half to put questions to you.
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is my first question now,
2 and it's a very straightforward one: Sir, we have realised, on looking
3 at the entire case file we have, that you have made several statements as
4 of 2003 onwards. After that, you were interviewed on several occasions
5 by the OTP; until 2007, approximately. And then all of a sudden, in 2007
6 you held press conferences before the Serb media in which you indicated
7 that you were a Defence witness for Mr. Seselj. You also drafted a
8 statement for the benefit of Mr. Seselj's Defence on the 29th of January,
10 Could you explain to us what has happened? How is it that we
11 have the feeling that you were initially a Prosecution witness, and from
12 2007 onwards you became a Defence witness? What has happened in the
13 meantime? Can you shed some light on this for us, please?
14 A. I can explain this.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't hear the
16 witness now at all. The official did something for me here, and now I
17 can't hear the witness.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall check this. Just wait
19 a minute, please.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain this. Can you hear
21 me now?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just a moment, please.
23 We need to check that Mr. Seselj's microphone is working properly.
24 You may begin your explanation.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The problem is that I can't hear
1 the witness. Now the volume has been put up by the usher, and it's so
2 loud that it's intolerable. That's not the problem. The problem is that
3 I can't hear the witness. I heard him a minute ago, when the headphones
4 were connected to a different source.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please begin your
6 explanation, and we'll see whether Mr. Seselj can hear you or not.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll answer the question. I can
8 explain why there was this change with respect to the statements.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hear him now. Apparently,
10 there was something that was preventing me from hearing him. Did the
11 witness actually say something? He said something very briefly. Could
12 the witness say something now?
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please repeat.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could he say anything?
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please say something
16 so that we can check whether Mr. Seselj can hear you or not.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hear him now. I was
19 listening to him from the outset by plugging this into a different
20 source, but a minute ago I couldn't hear the witness at all. I heard
21 everyone, apart from the witness, and now I can hear the witness again.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's working now.
23 Witness, please tell us again why you switched from being a
24 Prosecution witness to a Defence witness. What happened, actually?
25 A. Your Honours, first of all, please be patient so that I can
1 explain this to you in detail. I want to testify truthfully, and I
2 wouldn't want any lies to become public -- to be disseminated amongst the
4 I didn't intend to become a Prosecution witness. I was
5 interviewed in a very inappropriate way by investigators, and for 14
6 hours, in fact. There were threats. I was blackmailed. My family was
7 threatened too. I was threatened with prison. I was offered money. I
8 was offered the possibility of staying in a hotel in Holland if I would
9 learn by heart a statement that had already been drafted against Seselj.
10 I was offered six months in a hotel in Holland. I was to learn a
11 statement that had been written by heart. I said I would spend time with
12 beautiful girls, and an associate, Predrag, said, You can avail yourself
13 of their services at the expense of the Tribunal. And then I was told I
14 would be taken to the Tribunal and that I could observe the proceedings
15 through the glass, I could observe the witnesses against Seselj, so that
16 I could get over my nervousness, so that I could face him, because he's a
17 PhD -- he has a PhD, and, well, this was to overcome my nervousness. I
18 was also offered the possibility of going to a third country. I was
19 offered a lot of money. And, finally, Rita told me, Well, think about
20 your children a little bit, and I was quite revolted by this, so I
21 couldn't sleep. I went -- I was afraid that something would happen to my
22 children. I had many problems with him: I threw papers down in front of
23 her. She returned them to me, I returned them to her. Finally, I said,
24 Madam, I'm a free man. I can leave the premises. She said, Go ahead,
25 sir, but as soon as you go through the gate, I'll call your Ministry of
1 the Interior and ask them to arrest you at the gate. You will then be
2 detained in the Central Prison, and you will wait for me to come to
3 interview you there. And we have premises where a spotlight will be
4 directed at you. I wasn't afraid of that, I wasn't afraid of that,
5 because I knew no one could do that to me.
6 And, finally, I got up. I wanted to leave. She said, You'll go
7 with me tomorrow, go back. You'll go to The Hague. You'll sing the song
8 you have to sing there. You'll see.
9 I was to sign what she told me. I had to sign what she told me
10 so that I wouldn't be brought to The Hague, so that I wouldn't be accused
11 of not respecting the Court. She threatened to bring an indictment
12 against me. I'm not a very educated man. I can't know whether she's in
13 a position to bring an indictment against me. Similarly, I didn't know
14 whether she could issue a wanted request for me; that I'm not guilty,
15 that I'm not under investigation.
16 I worked in Montenegro
17 I returned home, and then I was told -- I spoke to Rita. I issued a
18 wanted notice, but it was a mild one. I would have been happy to be
19 arrested in Montenegro
20 are Albanians. I'd have been beaten up there. While The Hague Tribunal
21 was looking for me, the Albanians would arrest me.
22 I'm not financially well off. I couldn't sue Ms. Rita, but that
23 should be done. She has violated the regulations of the Tribunal. I'm
24 sure she's violated the Rules of International Law as well. And that's
25 why I'm saying that I never said that I would testify in this manner, but
1 she insisted I had to sign everything that she presented me with because
2 I was forced. I was told I would be arrested, I would be taken to The
3 Hague by plane.
4 I was afraid. There was blackmailing. There were threats that
5 were made. Five or six meetings where she acted aggressively against me.
6 I'd like to confront her, to see her face to face, to see whether this
7 is, in fact, the truth.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have noted everything you
9 have said. Someone else will look into this matter.
10 However, Witness, on the 21st of September, 2007 -- the 1st of
11 October, 2007, you met members of the OTP. You then signed a statement.
12 At that time, you told them that you had met members of the
13 Serbian Radical Party, that you had met Mr. Seselj's associates. You
14 give their names; Pop-Lazic, Radeta, Krasic. You said that they had
15 taken down your statement. You also mentioned Janko Lakic, and you also
16 stated that the people who had interviewed you wanted you to discredit
17 the investigators of the OTP. Paragraph 18 of your statement is where
18 this can be found.
19 On reading this, one has the feeling that at that time you are
20 saying that you gave your statement to Mr. Seselj's investigators,
21 actually, because you were under pressure. What do you have to say to
23 A. There's quite a lot I'd like to say about that. I am glad that
24 you've asked me this question. There's something I have to explain, too,
25 with regard to that statement.
1 I socialised with Janko Lakic from Mali Zvornik. Because of some
2 kind of trade in nails, I owed him some money, 3.000 convertible marks.
3 Someone came to confiscate my house, to throw me out, me and my family
4 from my house. He said he would send someone to kill me in my house with
5 a baseball bat or by beating me up, and he said that my wife and children
6 would be thrown out of the house. He mentioned some names, but I
7 wouldn't want to mention these names because people are perhaps not aware
8 of this. Perhaps they were just trying to frighten me.
9 I went to plead with him, ask him not to do this, to leave me
10 alone because I had two children, I can't live in the street, I didn't
11 have money for a flat or to survive. I have an example.
12 With regard to Stevan Tadic, he took part of his bar and certain
13 auxiliary buildings, and he bribed a witness to do this. I was also
14 afraid that he would seize my house in this manner. So when I went to
15 see him, he said, I'll forgive you for everything, but you have to be
16 with me against the Radical Party. You have to write down what I tell
17 you to write down.
18 I didn't think this would ever happen, but I did what I did, and
19 now we see that this has caused significant problems.
20 I wrote a letter to Vojislav Seselj, the letter that he dictated
21 to me. I did what he asked me to do.
22 Then he mentioned this programme on B-92 Radio, and I said that I
23 wouldn't participate in this programme. I then had a second statement
24 that was drafted for Seselj's Defence team.
25 Believe me, when children are at stake, you don't choose the
1 means you have recourse to.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the commercial dispute in
3 which you were involved with Mr. Lakic, where you were threatened, as you
4 said, Mr. Lakic wanted you to testify for Mr. Seselj or against
5 Mr. Seselj?
6 A. Against Mr. Seselj, against Mr. Seselj, and I had to accept this
7 for the sake of my children and my family.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why was Mr. Lakic at
9 loggerheads with Mr. Seselj; on what grounds?
10 A. I don't know why. He also gave a statement for Seselj's Defence
12 Later, there was some local problems between him and some local
13 people up there. He wrote some sort of letters for the party. He
14 complained -- he made complaints, and finally he decided to directly
15 attack the Serbian Radical Party and Vojislav Seselj.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All of this is extremely
17 complex. Someone will have to look into this from beginning to end and
18 in detail.
19 Witness, this will be one of my last questions before my
20 colleagues put questions to you on the merits of this case.
21 According to the documents I have, in December 2007 an article
22 was published in "Pravda" about the fact that you did not wish to lie or
23 say anything against Seselj, that you wanted to tell the truth. And at
24 that time, Mr. Vucic, who was one of Mr. Seselj's associates at the time,
25 purportedly said that you were a Defence witness. Mr. Vucic then said
1 that he had heard this because Mrs. Natasa Kandic had purportedly told
2 this to the press, to television.
3 Do you remember anything about this? And if you do, can you tell
4 us anything about it?
5 A. I remember that. I can explain this to the extent of my
6 knowledge. It's not just rumour; it's what I know.
7 On the 29th of November, there was a programme on the Fox Channel
8 in Belgrade
9 participated in it, and the director of humanitarian law, Natasa Kandic.
10 Natasa Kandic mentioned my name in the course of the programme. She
11 said, You'll see what Nenad Jovic will tell you when he appears there.
12 I'm not going to pose any questions. I'll just comment on this.
13 If Natasa Kandic is an employee of The Hague Tribunal, she also
14 has to be convicted for violating the Tribunal. If not, she has to
15 give -- be given a double sentence, 14 years. I'm not going to look for
16 her and try to prove that I'm not a criminal, but I will sue her and
17 justice will have to be done. But let's go back to Vucic.
18 I had contact with the Serbian Radical Party by phone. Some
19 woman answered. I was looking for some lawyer --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.
21 Sir, you are now addressing a key question, and I would like you
22 to reflect on this before you answer.
23 When you contacted the Serbian Radical Party, were you the person
24 who called them up or did they call you up?
25 A. I, Nenad Jovic, phoned the Serbian Radical Party. I asked for
1 assistance. If it had to do with the testimony of some other party, I
2 wouldn't have contacted the Radical Party. I would have phoned the party
3 that was involved in the proceedings. I'm not a member, with all due
4 respect, Seselj and the other members of the party, I'm not a member of
5 the Radical Party. I'm a member of the Movement for -- Bogoljub
6 Karadzic's movement, the Movement for Unified Serbia. I don't know, we
7 have the name somewhere. It's no longer in existence anymore because he
8 was expelled.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. My last question, sir:
10 You're telling us today, under oath, that you gave statements to the
11 Prosecutor because the Prosecution pressured you, and after that, you
12 then contacted Mr. Seselj's Defence to tell them that you were available
13 to testify?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have I summed up your position?
16 A. Could you please repeat that question?
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat.
18 Can you tell us today, under oath, that you gave statements to
19 the OTP because you were being pressured by the OTP? After that, you
20 contacted Mr. Seselj's Defence in order to testify on his behalf? Does
21 the situation look like this?
22 A. That's how things are, but the statements didn't follow on each
23 other that closely. It's not as if I gave the Prosecution a statement on
24 one day and on the next day a statement for the Defence. I thought about
25 the matter. I thought about my honour, my reputation. And if one's life
1 is at stake, well, then so be it.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Of your own volition, did you
3 not at some point contact the OTP?
4 Witness, I don't wish to trick you into anything, but according
5 to a document I have, on the 17th of June, 2003, you, yourself, contacted
6 the OTP in Belgrade
7 subject of a statement written by an OTP investigator. What do you have
8 to say to that?
9 A. Yes, yes. That was Ms. Rita's interpretation too. I was called
10 to go to the Street of Jevrema Grujica. I was called at home, and I went
11 there. I then lost the information. On the second occasion, I asked the
12 official to write down the request so that I had a justification.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, it's an either/or
14 situation. Either you are telling us the truth or it is the OTP
15 investigator who is making a false statement, because the OTP
16 investigator states as follows in his statement. Let me read it out:
17 "On the 17th of June, 2003, the witness voluntarily contacted the
18 OTP and let us know that they should consider him as a potential
20 The OTP is telling us, therefore, that it is you who contacted
21 them, and not the other way 'round, as you have just told us.
22 What do you have to say to this?
23 A. All I can say is that against the OTP -- well, I'm not against
24 the Tribunal or the OTP. I'm impartial. I'm a witness for the truth,
25 but I'm against the Prosecutors who meddled in that former Yugoslavia
1 ours, and the whole Hague Tribunal and those Prosecutors over there. The
2 truth is what I'm telling you.
3 I was brought an invitation, without a signature, requesting me
4 to attend an interview in such and such a place at such and such a time.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're saying, and
6 you're under oath, that you did not contact the OTP, you did not approach
7 them. It is the OTP which sent you an invitation. What you are saying
8 goes against the statement of 7/4/2010
9 I can show it to Mr. Marcussen in this blue file.
10 So you say that you were served an invitation. Now, later on,
11 did you ever call the OTP on the phone, the Belgrade Field Office, to
12 tell them what was happening?
13 A. I didn't understand those last two words.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat.
15 Did you ever, yourself, call the OTP by phone to say this is
16 happening? Did you ever do this? Did you ever call the OTP?
17 A. No, I did not. I didn't know the telephone number. I was given
18 the address, telling me where to come. And just like any other honest
19 citizen, I abide by the rule of law and the Constitution of the state and
20 the Tribunal, and I responded to the call.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the document which
22 Mr. Marcussen knows well, on page 7, paragraph (r), it says the
24 "On November 30th, 2007, the witness," i.e., you, "contacted
25 staff at the Sarajevo Field Office," because you heard that your name had
1 been mentioned on a television programme relating to Mr. Seselj's trial.
2 This is what is written in the statement made by the OTP. Now, on
3 November 30th, 2007
4 A. But there was a mistake there. You said "in Sarajevo
5 that's what I heard. That was what was interpreted, that on the 30th I
6 was in Sarajevo
7 the Prosecution.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the document I have, the OTP
9 had your cellphone number. And as of December 7, 2007, you cut off your
10 mobile phone, and they were unable to contact you after that. Do you
11 remember this?
12 A. I remember that. The 7th of December; is that what you said?
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 A. Yes, yes, that was after the 29th of November, when Natasa Kandic
15 disclosed to me -- or mentioned my name in the programme Fox -- or the
16 programme called "Tell the People" on television. Now, after they told
17 me to bring in my passport for a visa, I was never told, Listen here,
18 you're going to be a witness. I was told that the trial would never come
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me finish this off. Of
21 course, I could ask you questions for hours on end, but let me put to you
22 one last question.
23 It seems that in November 2007, you were approached by a person
24 called Novak Savic, and this Novak Savic would be -- was probably a
25 member of Mr. Seselj's Defence team, and he told you that you should go
1 to Dubai
2 name is Luka. Do you remember this?
3 A. Novak Savic did his best -- since Novak Savic and I are good
4 friends, he did his best to find me a job, because I was left jobless,
5 and no money, either, and I can only be grateful to him and to apologise
6 that his name isn't mentioned in that context in the statement. It was a
7 question of interpreters. Interpreters or translators very often get
8 things wrong. "Chetnik," well, "Chetnik," you can say Chetnik is my son,
9 who is 11 years old, because Chetniks, they should be Serbs. Well,
10 people talking about that should be impartial.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,
12 you're saying that Mr. Savic offered you a job. Is that it?
13 A. Yes, I was looking for a job. I had no money. I was working in
15 months. So I said, Find me a job, please, because he was a friend of
16 mine, you see. Novak Savic is a friend of mine. He moves around a lot,
17 so I asked him to see what he could do.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is Mr. Savic a member of the
19 Serbian Radical Party?
20 A. What is he? Is he a member of the Serbian Radical Party; is that
21 what you asked me?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's my question.
23 A. I think he is.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me now give the floor to my
25 fellow Judges, because time is running. I'm sure my fellow Judges will
1 have questions on the merits of the case.
2 Judge Harhoff will start.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
4 Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
5 A. Good afternoon, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Jovic, I'm going to put some questions to you
7 in relation to the statements that you have offered to the Prosecution,
8 simply for the purpose of trying to find out what happened at the time in
9 the former Yugoslavia
10 You have explained to the Prosecution that you volunteered as a
11 member of first the Chetnik Movement and subsequently to the Serbian
12 Radical Party, and that the result of this was that you were suggested as
13 a volunteer to take part in the armed conflict in order to support the
14 interests of the Serbian nation, and eventually you were sent off to the
15 front-line at several locations.
16 My first question to you, Mr. Jovic, is whether you were offered
17 any military training, including the use of weapons and military tactics,
18 while you were preparing for being dispatched to the front-line. Can you
19 explain to us the background of your training?
20 A. Before I give you an answer, I have to say, with all due respect,
21 that you made a mistake. You read something out that might have been
22 written erroneously.
23 I wasn't chosen or forced or elected, just pulled out to go to
24 the front. I was a member of the Serbian Chetnik Movement when the war
25 broke out in the Republic of Croatia
1 because I have uncles there and relatives there. I don't want to state
2 their names, to avoid making problems for them. But, anyway, I went of
3 my own free will. And before I left, we did not have any training. We
4 did not have any training, but we had to bring in our military booklet,
5 saying that we had done our military service. And in that booklet, as a
6 regular thing, you would see whether somebody was ill, suffered from
7 something, had served the army, and so on. And then there would be an
8 interview. We would talk to someone from the Crisis Staff to see what
9 our mental state was and things like that.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. And how long a time was it since you
11 had completed your military service?
12 A. I started my military service in 1976 and completed it in 1978.
13 So in calender terms, it spanned three years, although the national
14 service was 15 months, but I went in November and completed it in
15 February 1978.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. But since the time you completed your
17 military service and until 1991, there would have passed a substantial
18 number of years, I suppose.
19 A. Well, once you learn to swim, you never forget that, and it's the
20 same thing. If you undergo 15 months of training and carry a rifle, then
21 you would be able to do it again. I would be able to carry the same
22 rifle I did in 1976. You can't be that forgetful and forget something
23 that is the most important thing in your life, which is the defence of
24 your homeland.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well enough. Mr. Jovic, you then explained to
1 the Prosecution that after your first deployment to the front-line, you
2 decided, and I think it was in August 1991, that you no longer wanted to
3 serve as a member of the SRS
4 you decided to leave?
5 A. I didn't decide to leave the unit I was in, if it is the unit in
6 the village of Tenja
7 wife, she is deceased, but she called me to say that our child was ill.
8 I had a daughter. She was, I think, four or five years old at the time.
9 And I asked my commander, the commander of the Territorial Defence, to
10 give me permission to leave the war zone to visit my child. I was given
11 permission. I went home. However, it turned out that my wife was just
12 very afraid for me and for my life and just wanted me home, and used that
13 as a pretext. She was afraid for my life. And so I returned two or
14 three days later. I don't remember exactly. I went back to the village
15 of Tenja, but I didn't find my unit there anymore. I had to report to
16 the defence commander, Jovo Rebraca, to say that I was back, and he told
17 me, Your unit has been relocated for strategic reasons and moved to
18 another place. Do you wish to stay here or do you want to follow your
19 unit and go where they are?
20 Now, I thought it was dangerous for me to pass through this war
21 area, and I had got to know the locals well, so I said that I would
22 prefer to stay on, and they took me on. So at my own responsibility,
23 without reporting to anybody, I remained in the village of Tenja
24 don't know where the others were and where they went to. I no longer met
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did Mr. Rebraca tell you why the SRS unit had
2 left Tenja?
3 A. Yes, he did. He said that it was for strategic reasons that they
4 were being redeployed, moved to another area. For strategic reasons, he
5 said, and he was the commander. So I didn't have an insight into the
6 situation on the ground. He told me.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. You then went on to explain that at a
8 later point in time, you were dispatched to somewhere in Bosnia
9 also told us or told the Prosecution that the transportation was arranged
10 through the hydroelectric plants in the area, which provided drivers and
11 some vehicles. Can you clarify the details of the transportation to this
12 new place?
13 A. I remember it well. If it was anything false -- well, actually,
14 you didn't ask the full question. It was a transport of volunteers to
15 the village of Darda
16 about it. If it wasn't the truth, I wouldn't be telling you about it.
17 So we have the village of Darda
18 came back home from Tenja, Janko Lakic came to see me and asked me
19 whether I would like to go to the village of Darda
20 was a tried-and-tested fighter already, and to take a group with me, a
21 group of volunteers; to test their metel, young guys, they like to do
22 that. And I said I did want to go, but I didn't want to be the command
23 or responsible for anybody's life. And he said the unit belonging to the
24 MUP of Republika Srpska -- no, not Republika Srpska, the former
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's Republika Srpska now. Anyway, that we should
1 go through them. I didn't mind who I went through. I was used to war,
2 so I could go.
3 I would have to mention a name here. Should we go into private
4 session or should I keep quiet?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. Harhoff. You said
6 "to Bosnia
7 Krajina, and we're dealing with 1991 there, whereas Bosnia, the war was
8 from April 1992, in Bosnia
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you for pointing this out. Indeed, I was
10 mistaken. Baranja is in Croatia
11 But my question was really a different one, and this is why I
12 don't think it's necessary to go into private session, Mr. Jovic. My
13 question was: Who organised the transportation? Was that the
14 hydroelectric plant that you mentioned to the Prosecution?
15 A. No. The transportation was organised and probably paid for by
16 the MUP or the junior commander, the then MUP commander in Zvornik, so
17 across in Bosnia
18 many people.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: But how come that the MUP would dispose over the
20 buses belonging to a private company?
21 A. Well, they would rent them out. If I'm a private person, I can
22 rent out 10 buses if I have somebody to drive, and an institution like
23 the MUP and the MUP commander could do that.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Okay. So I understand that the transportation
25 was provided for by the MUP and that the MUP had rented buses from the
1 hydroelectric plant. Is that your testimony?
2 A. Yes, precisely. That's it, precisely, and the unit belonged to
3 the MUP.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. You then go on to mention an episode
5 in November, at the end of November 1991, a week before you left Baranja.
6 And you mention an episode in which Rade Kostic approached you and asked
7 you to become a member of the police in Darda. And from what I
8 understood from your statements, you seem to indicate that Mr. Kostic was
9 asking the group that you were with if they wanted to give up their
10 Chetnik appearance and become members of the police, or whether they
11 wanted to stay as Chetniks. And I was left with the impression that
12 somehow Mr. Kostic was not very pleased with the volunteers and so would
13 not be willing to admit anyone who insisted on appearing as a Chetnik
14 into the police force. Can you clarify these events? In other words, is
15 it correct --
16 A. Yes, I can clarify.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please do.
18 A. I can clarify that.
19 Mr. Kostic said that anybody who wanted to remain in the police
20 force, because we were already in police uniform and we acted as
21 policemen, we were working as policeman. And what you said about giving
22 up the Chetnik appearance, we were all policemen in the first place. We
23 were neat, clean-shaven, our hair was cut properly, because we belonged
24 to the MUP. So there was no other appearance, no other markings or
25 personal traits. We looked like the MUP.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: But why then would Mr. Kostic ask you to take off
2 Chetnik symbols and insignia from the uniforms, and why would he insist
3 that only those who were willing to give up these appearances could stay
4 in the MUP?
5 A. Well, that was the interpretation of the person that wrote that
6 down. On oath, I claim that we did not have any appearance of that kind.
7 I am proud of having the Chetnik symbols and insignia, but at the time we
8 were without that. We were clean-shaven, our hair was neatly cut, we
9 wore MUP uniforms, and the whole village of Darda
10 They're all over Serbia
11 But, anyway, they would be happy to testify to that.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: So if I understand you correctly, Mr. Kostic
13 would not have made any special reference to his unwillingness to include
14 Chetniks into the police force; is that correct?
15 A. Where do you see Chetniks? I do apologise for having to ask you
16 that, but where do you see Chetniks? We didn't come as Chetniks, we
17 didn't look like Chetniks. They dressed us in police uniforms, with
18 police insignia. We belonged to the MUP of Krajina; not the MUP of
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand. While you were in Darda, and while
21 you were serving there as a police -- as a member of the MUP, who paid
22 you for your services?
23 A. We were volunteers. Nobody paid us.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: I suppose you would have to live on something.
25 Didn't you receive any payment from either the party or the MUP or the TO
1 or somebody else?
2 A. No, no. As volunteers, we were given accommodation and food, and
3 nothing more than that. And the party -- well, let me mention that we
4 had nothing to do with the Radical Party, or the Democratic Party, or any
5 other party, for that matter, in Serbia while we were over there. So I
6 state with full responsibility that that was how it was. I know what
7 happened, I know what the truth was, and I am a witness here to tell the
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: And later on, did you receive any payment from
10 the SDS
11 A. I, personally, later on did, but -- well, only I, personally, I,
12 Nenad Jovic, personally, went with the commander -- with the police
13 commander. Well, I was there all the time. I was in the security
14 detail. And from the SDS
15 assistance, because I wasn't employed anywhere and I had to be present
16 over there for a time. Perhaps for two months, not even two months;
17 less. But as a policeman, as a reservist, police reservist. That was on
18 the ready there. Because the MUP was divided, the chief was a Muslim,
19 the commander was a Serb, and you couldn't receive a salary from them
20 directly. You couldn't tell a Muslim, Now you have to pay this man for
21 helping us out. It went through the party, so that I had some financial
22 assistance, and so that I can have it certified and talk about it. Maybe
23 I shouldn't, but that's how it was.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Were the police reservists not paid by the MUP
25 while they were on service -- while they were in service, when they were
1 called up from the reserve ranks?
2 A. The reservists were, but I was not listed as -- well, the chief
3 was a Muslim, as I said, so to bring me in the reserve police force, it
4 was very difficult and not an opportune thing to do, because I was from
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: But you told us just a minute ago that you were a
7 police reservist, so why wouldn't you be paid, as anybody else, by the
9 A. I said a police reservist so that you should not think that I was
10 an active-duty policeman working in Zvornik. By agreement with the chief
11 of the police station, I was his personal security detail. I drove him
12 around. If necessary, I worked in civilian clothes, checking around
13 town, who was purchasing weapons, selling weapons. I would collect
14 information and went to the Serb Command, because there was a lot of
15 weapons trafficking, the Muslims -- weapons. Well, so did the Serbs,
16 but --
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Jovic, you have told us that you were a
18 police reservist. You have also confirmed that police reservists were
19 paid by the MUP for the time they were in active service. Yet you also
20 explain to us that you received payment from the SDS Party. So I'm left
21 with an impression that there was a confusion of the authority vested in
22 the MUP and the authority vested in the political party. Or did you
23 serve two masters, simply?
24 A. Well, you're right. But you're not right when you say that I
25 said that I, as a reservist, received a salary. I didn't receive such a
1 salary from the MUP. I was with the commander. I acted as his escort.
2 I have already explained that. If you like, I'll repeat it. It's not
3 difficult for me.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: You do not need to repeat, and I did understand
5 that you were not paid by the MUP, but you were occasionally paid by the
7 confuses me. And my conclusion is that you probably were serving two
8 masters, and this is what I would like you to comment on.
9 A. I don't understand how I was serving two masters. If I've
10 understood you correctly, you said that I was serving two masters; is
11 that right?
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: That was my question. And if I --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Which two masters --
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Hold on. Let me finish my question with the
15 witness and then you can intervene.
16 You were working or functioning as a police reservist, and yet
17 you were paid by the SDS
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I comment on the
19 interpretation, Mr. Harhoff? The interpretation is not correct.
20 You said, according to the transcript in English, "serving two
21 masters." This can be interpreted into the Serbian language as "you were
22 serving two owners or employers." An employer is one thing, and a master
23 is something else. But the interpreter doesn't know the Serbian
24 language, and that is why we have a problem. If you had told the witness
25 "two proprietors" or "two employers," then he would have known what you
1 meant. When you said "two masters," well, that confuses the witness. So
2 the interpreter can laugh as much as she likes, but she doesn't know the
3 Serbian language.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: I am not a Serbian native speaker, so I have no
5 idea about the correct translation or interpretation of what I told you.
6 But with Mr. Seselj's comments, Mr. Jovic, are you able to answer
7 my question? My question relates to the fact that you were working as a
8 police reservist and yet paid by someone else than the MUP.
9 A. Yes, but at the time I wasn't mobilised as a reserve policeman.
10 I was working by escorting or, rather, providing security to the
11 commander, at his personal request. I wasn't asked to come and work as a
12 reserve policeman. It was a personal request. You understand there was
13 a private agreement, Will you come, work with me. I had one boss, so
14 that's what confused me. That's why I was unable to answer that
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Now I am even more confused, because now you tell
17 us that you weren't really a police reservist, although you were wearing
18 a police uniform, but you were working more or less on a private basis as
19 a bodyguard, I understand, and yet still paid by the SDS.
20 A. We don't understand each other.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Probably not. I am asking you to explain to us
22 how it came that you were wearing a police uniform, but you were not
23 actually working as a police reservist, but as a bodyguard to a police
24 chief, and you were paid by the SDS
1 A. Your Honours, it's very easy to explain this.
2 I worked in the civilian sector --
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Jovic, can I interrupt you, because I want to
4 make sure that you do not understand my questions as in any way trying to
5 lead you into a trap or something. That is certainly not my intention.
6 The only information that I'm looking for is what the relations were
7 between the MUP and the political parties, and the authority that
8 apparently a police commander would have to employ someone more or less
9 on a private basis to protect him.
10 A. Well, naturally, war was imminent. The man didn't feel safe.
11 I'd spent a lengthy period of time at the front, and he wanted to have
12 someone by his side who would be able to protect him if there was an
13 attack, because fire would be opened in villages, there would be bursts
14 of fires at night, and so on and so forth. So this was probably the
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need to have a break now,
17 and we shall resume later on. The Registrar has turned around several
18 times and looked at me to indicate this to me.
19 We are going to have a 20-minute break. Please have a good rest,
20 and we shall meet against in 20 minutes' time.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.
24 I would like to state for the record that the first few minutes
25 of today's hearing were in open session and not in closed session.
1 Judge Harhoff will continue putting his questions now.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As the Registrar has asked me
4 to do, after these two minutes that were in open session, we then moved
5 into closed session.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to make a brief comment
7 again, Mr. President.
8 Before the end of the first session, you said that the Registrar
9 was telling you that the time was up and that we had to have a break, and
10 the interpreter said the witness gave you a sign indicating that it was
11 time for a break.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for having specified
13 this. I did not understand that the witness told us that it was time to
14 have a break. Thank you.
15 Anyway, Witness, we shall continue.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Witness.
17 I think we, in the interests of time, should move on to something
19 You mentioned to the Prosecution that during the attack on
20 Zvornik, there were some 40 men participating under the command of Arkan,
21 and you also said that there were some 30 to 40 men under the command of
22 a gentleman called Zuco. Do you recall this?
23 A. Yes, and I'm certain I didn't say that about Zuco, because I
24 heard about Zuco for the first time after the liberation of the town of
25 Kula, and that was 14 or 15 days later. I don't know the exact date.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. Do you know if any of these 30 to 40
2 Chetniks, who you said took part in the attack on Zvornik, were SRS
3 volunteers, and was Zuco a member of the SRS?
4 A. First of all, I didn't say they were Chetniks. And, secondly,
5 I've already said that Zuco is someone I didn't even know at the time. I
6 hadn't heard of him, not until the liberation of the town of Kula
7 is part of Zvornik.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: To be more direct, then, Mr. Jovic, let me ask
9 you directly. Did any of the SRS
10 came to be known, take part in the attack on Zvornik? Do you know that?
11 A. I don't know whether they participated. But in the attack, there
12 were people wearing cockade hats. There were some people from Zvornik
13 who'd been driven out over the barricades, and some people from Karakaj,
14 near Zvornik. I knew some of them personally. They were just across the
15 Drina River
16 outside, apart from Arkan's unit and myself, who turned up then. Then
17 there was the Serbian police.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, we have that in your statement. But just to
19 conclude what you just said on the Chetniks in the attack, or the persons
20 wearing cockades in the attack on Zvornik, you don't know if any of these
21 were members of the SRS
22 command of Mr. Zuco; is that correct?
23 A. I don't know. And I know for sure that I didn't see Zuco or hear
24 about him until the operation to liberate Kula, which is part of the town
25 of Zvornik. When Zvornik was liberated, well, that didn't mean that the
1 entire area was liberated. Kula is adjacent to Zvornik, and that's where
2 that place was under threat.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. Let's just for a second have a look
4 at the liberation of Kula. Did you then learn or did you receive any
5 information of whether Mr. Zuco had any relationship with the SRS?
6 A. What I heard of Zuco -- about Zuco after the liberation of the
7 town of Kula, I knew that they belonged to some independent unit. I
8 didn't see such volunteers, though, but perhaps they were in a different
9 position on the other side, somewhere else. But they weren't in the
10 town. I never heard that Zuco was a member of the SRS. Perhaps I'm
11 mistaken, but I never heard about that, because I didn't even know Zuco
12 at the time. If he were a close friend of mine, I would know. I would
13 say, yes, he was, or, no, he wasn't.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. So can we conclude that in your
15 testimony, you did not know whether Zuco or any of his men had anything
16 to do with the SRS
17 A. The only conclusion I can draw is that Zuco wasn't a member of
18 the Serbian Radical Party, because there were colleagues who worked at
19 the bridge, and I heard from them that after the fall of Kula, the SRS
20 volunteers all withdrew. But Zuco remained, and I know him from that
21 time. If he had been a volunteer of the SRS, he would have had to leave
22 with his men, and some of his individual combatants would certainly have
23 been punished. We were controlled. Zoran Rankic came to see us to see
24 what discipline was like, to see whether we obeyed orders, to ensure that
25 we weren't causing the local inhabitants any problems. You probably know
1 what happened with Zuco later.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: We do. Thank you very much.
3 Let's move forward to your reference to the Chetniks protecting
4 some of the bridges in Zvornik. And I think you explained to the
5 Prosecution that the Chetniks who were manning the posts at the bridges
6 were searching people, not only Muslims, but also Serbs, and that they
7 were stealing, and for that reason they were expelled shortly after or
8 removed from those check-points. Can you clarify why the Chetniks who
9 were securing the bridges were removed from that duty?
10 A. Those people weren't Chetniks, sir. There were two groups of
11 men. There was one group that was securing the bridges. They were
12 flexible with regard to the citizens, at least in that town, because we
13 were there, the police were there with them. And later there was some
14 sort of unofficial group. They had come there of their own accord. They
15 were there for a certain number of days, and they were driven away by
16 Commander Panic. Rumours were that they would strip women, but this
17 group was formed of vagrants from various villages. It wasn't Zvornik or
18 other group. One -- some was from Zvornik, another from Krupa, they were
19 perhaps from various places. I didn't see them and I can't say anything
20 about them. I wasn't involved in the attack on Kula. I was involved in
21 the attack -- or, rather, I was on leave. I went to Novi Sad and stayed
22 there with my relative. I was there for a week so I can't really say.
23 I'm not in a position to do so.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: We'll get to Kula in just a second.
25 Can I just conclude the question that I have on Zvornik by asking
1 you: Who, to your knowledge, was leading the attack on Zvornik; do you
3 A. The Crisis Staff from Zvornik led the attack on Zvornik. At the
4 time, the Republika Srpska wasn't in existence, but the Crisis Staff of
5 Serbs from Zvornik was involved.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: And who was the operational commander?
7 A. I don't know who the operational commander was. There was the
8 Crisis Staff commander. Who else would there have been?
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: You seem to have indicated in your statements to
10 the Prosecution that the attack was led by Arkan, as the commander, and
11 this was just a question to confirm whether you stood by this.
12 Let's move, then, to Kula, and that will be my final questions,
13 because you said that when finally the attack on Kula was about to begin,
14 you had noticed that the way in which the attack was organised was such
15 that literally all or at least most of the Muslim inhabitants in Kula
16 would be killed, or the non-Serb -- sorry, the non-Serb inhabitants in
17 Kula would be killed, and for that reason, you refused to take part. Can
18 you explain the events surrounding the attack on Kula?
19 A. Yes, I can explain the events, although I didn't participate in
20 the operation to liberate the town.
21 I call this an operation to liberate part of Zvornik because the
22 Muslims, prior to the war, used the media, the newspapers, the
23 television, to boast that they had Stigler [phoen] missiles, they were
24 armed, that they had certain weapons at their disposal, so a competent
25 team prepared to go there, naturally. But I was on leave. I couldn't go
1 there for various reasons, because I was tired, I'd been on duty 24 hours
2 a day in town, so I borrowed a colleague's car and went to Novi Sad to
3 stay with my relative, my sister-in-law.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: So if I understand you, you did not refrain from
5 taking part in the attack on Kula because of any concerns for the
6 civilian population in Kula; is that correct?
7 A. Well, an honourable combatant doesn't abuse civilians, doesn't
8 kill civilians, but I was quite simply burnt out. I was no longer
9 capable of participating in something like that. Because people were on
10 duty on bridges, in streets, we worked around the clock. I said I had to
11 leave. I said that my child was ill. I managed to get out of that
12 situation, and I left so that I could have a rest.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you have information, actually, about the way
14 in which the attack on Kula was organised, and did that information
15 suggest that ultimately the non-Serb civilian population in Kula would be
16 killed, or most of them, at least?
17 A. I didn't have any such information because I wasn't in the
18 Crisis Staff Command. Secondly, I didn't know how many people would be
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much, sir. I have no further
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I just have a follow-up
23 question, in line with the question put by my colleague, which lies at
24 the heart of the issue at stake here. As you know, we must try
25 Mr. Seselj on the basis of what has happened in Zvornik. Your testimony
1 is valuable to us, because I notice that when you gave a statement on the
2 18th and 19th of October, 2006, in paragraph 92 of this statement - you
3 don't need to look at it - you explained that during the attack on
4 Zvornik, there were 40 of Arkan's men, 15 Serbian policemen, and 50
5 Chetniks belonging to Seselj. You said that this group was made up of
6 100 to 120 people. This sentence lies heavily on the accused, because
7 according to what you said at the time, there was something like 50
8 Chetniks belonging to Seselj in Zvornik.
9 What do you have to say to this today?
10 A. That's a matter of interpretation or of mistranslation. I said
11 quite clearly there were about 40 of Arkan's men, about 15 or 16 -- I
12 don't know the exact number. Fifteen or 16 policemen. Everyone else was
13 from Zvornik and from Karakaj, a suburb of Zvornik. They had cockades on
14 their heads. If we had unloaded a lorry of cockades, they would have
15 disappeared in a day. And no one survived Tito's Communist regime, no
16 one touched him, so why talk about Chetnik insignia? On the state flag
17 used at present, we have the Nemanjic coat of arms, so it means that the
18 president, Mr. Tadic, is a Chetnik. Does it? I don't know, we're all
19 Chetniks now in the eyes of certain individuals. But I know that Tadic
20 is not a Chetnik. That's quite certain. You can't judge people on the
21 basis of the fact that they put a cockade on their heads.
22 I didn't see any of Seselj's men. I wasn't aware of them turning
23 up or leaving. But according to some of the statements made by
24 Mr. Seselj here before this Tribunal, I came to understand that he had a
25 group of his own. As to where it was active, in which territory, I don't
1 know. Someone else must know about that, and someone else must be in a
2 position to inform you of the fact.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
4 My fellow Judge, Ms. Lattanzi, has half an hour for questions.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, I apologise, but
6 I think we have to backtrack somehow and go back to the time when you
7 were recruited within the Serbian Chetnik Movement in 1990.
8 I would like to know, regarding this period of time, who exactly
9 were the leaders of this movement.
10 A. The leader of that movement was Janko Lakic, at a local level in
11 the Mali Zvornik municipality.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did he hail from Serbia
13 A. He originated from Republika Srpska, but -- well, he lived in
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Could you give us the year or
16 years when he lived in Serbia
17 A. Well, I don't know. I didn't really know him before 1990, when
18 the Serbian Chetnik Movement was -- there was this promotional ceremony
19 in Mali Zvornik of the movement.
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In 1990, he lived in Serbia
21 that it, or did he live in Zvornik?
22 A. In Serbia
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mrs. Lattanzi, Mali Zvornik is in
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So he lived in Zvornik. What
1 about Despotovic; who was it? Did he live in Mali Zvornik or did he live
2 in Zvornik?
3 A. He lived in Mali Zvornik. His wife worked --
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. What about
5 Despotovic, Aleksandar Despotovic? Who was he?
6 A. Despotovic is -- was born in Serbia
7 he stills lives in Serbia
8 in Serbia
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] What role did he play within the
10 Serbian Chetnik Movement in 1990?
11 A. Well, something like me, similar to me. I was the deputy of some
12 president, or vice-president, or whatever.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Who did you obtain the
14 certificate for recruitment within the Serbian Chetnik Movement from?
15 A. From Janko Lakic. I received a certificate at the end of April
16 or the beginning of May - I'm not quite sure - but on a voluntary basis,
17 because I asked them, because those young guys were ready to fight
18 against the five-pointed star of Milosevic and Communism.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Was Mr. Seselj a leader of the
20 Serbian Chetnik Movement?
21 A. Mr. Seselj was most probably -- yes, he was the leader of the
22 Chetnik Movement, and he held a promotional rally to promote his
23 movement. That was held in Zvornik at the end of April or beginning of
24 May - I'm not quite sure - in the Dom Kulture, the cultural centre
25 building. Because I'm a local of Mali Zvornik, I could tell you the
1 names of 300 people who attended. I wasn't able to go in myself, because
2 there was a crowd.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Very well. You're talking about
4 1990; right?
5 A. Yes, that's right, 1990, because you asked me when I became a
6 member, and I became a member the morning after --
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes. And after?
8 A. The morning after the rally.
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] What? After having heard
10 Mr. Seselj, maybe?
11 A. I wasn't able to enter the hall because there were too many
12 people. Lots of people were interested. So I had to stand outside, and
13 I saw how the Muslims set up a cordon at the entrance door, waiting for
14 the Serbs to come out. So I couldn't hear what Seselj was saying inside
15 because there was a lot of noise when this promotional rally of the
16 Serbian Chetnik Movement was going on. And as the people were coming out
17 of the building, the Muslims beat them, hit them, kicked them, and the
18 police cordon didn't do anything to stop them.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise. Nobody told you
20 what Mr. Seselj had said, what he talked about?
21 A. Well, of course they did. The local Muslims told me, too, who
22 went inside to hear what he was saying; not to become a member, but they
23 said, We want to hear everybody's platform and what they have to say, and
24 then we can choose which party we want to belong to. I have a lot of
25 Muslim friends in Zvornik, and I still have friends like that that come
1 home, to my home.
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Were the Muslims happy with
3 Mr. Seselj's speech?
4 A. Well, I don't know whether they were happy with his speech or
5 not. A brawl broke out. Five hundred people clashed. They destroyed a
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Was there a fight? Do you know
8 what was the reason for the fight?
9 A. Because the Muslims, three days before that, were preparing --
10 were collecting stones up on their balconies. Regardless of Seselj was
11 going to say, the important thing was to hit him with stones. And a Serb
12 told me that, well, the Muslim had cocked a pistol and wanted to shoot,
13 and the Serbs stopped him from doing that. But the police was there in
14 civilian clothes, and Motorolas, and they just said, Don't be afraid,
15 this rally has been announced -- was announced in advance. And so that
16 was it. And in the morning, I went to find Janko Lakic because I wanted
17 to become a member of the Serbian Chetnik Movement the next day, because
18 the young guys were brave, they were courageous.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But since you decided to join,
20 you must have known that they had a platform, a programme, or did you
21 just join because you felt sympathy towards this movement without really
22 knowing what their platform was all about? And here I'm talking about
23 the Serbian Chetnik Movement. Maybe the platform of the programme had
24 been spelled out by Mr. Seselj during this rally.
25 A. I didn't hear what he said at the rally, but I knew that they had
1 the courage to sing at a rally in Belgrade, to sing songs against the
2 five-pointed star of Communism and to shout slogans. So I liked people
3 who had the guts to do something like that. But the police were there,
4 and they said, We're doing our job, and they said, We're doing our job.
5 We want to take down the five-pointed star, we want to topple the regime.
6 We don't want to live in darkness anymore. So that was the beginning of
7 it all.
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did you know what was the
9 relationship at the time between Seselj and Milosevic?
10 A. Of course I knew. Well, at that time, Seselj was arrested every
11 other day. Well, not literally every other day. I use that expression.
12 But he would be arrested from time to time, whether in Kragujevac, or
14 as Mr. Seselj was concerned.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And this relationship was always
17 A. Well, of course, yes. Maybe something changed when the bombings
18 started and when a national salvation government came into power. They
19 might have co-operated in setting up a defence, so there might have been
20 some agreement at that level. But, otherwise, during the war from 1991
21 to 1995 and onwards, their relationship was extremely bad.
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, we'll now move on to
23 the attempt in 1991 --
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. I have a
25 follow-up question. It's extremely important.
1 Judge Lattanzi asked you a number of questions on this rally held
2 in the area of Mali Zvornik, and you said that it was held in 1990. You
3 are aware of what happened when Zvornik was attacked in 1992, so I'd like
4 to know whether, as far as you know, Mr. Seselj had come to Zvornik or
5 Mali Zvornik prior to the attack on Zvornik in order to make a speech,
6 because this is what the Prosecution is stating in its indictment and in
7 its pre-trial brief. And any Judge like me, French, Italian, or Dane,
8 must check these allegations made by the Prosecution as well as check
9 allegations made by the Defence, so I would like to know, as far as you
10 know, whether a rally would have been held by Mr. Seselj just a few days
11 before Zvornik was attacked.
12 A. I'll answer your question, but you've asked me a series of
13 questions, in actual fact. I tend to forget, due to my illness, so I'll
14 answer the last question and then move backwards.
15 Now, Vojislav Seselj, in Mali Zvornik, in Serbia
16 held a promotional rally of the Serbian Chetnik Movement. The Serbian
17 Radical Party didn't exist at the time, so you can't have a witness
18 saying that that was so. Well, you can have a witness like that, but
19 that would be a false witness. The witness would be lying. And in SUP
20 the party was registered, and you can check that out. You're the Judges.
21 You can find when the rally was registered. There was permission for the
22 rally to be held, this promotional rally. And they provided police
23 security, and the police did nothing. We should have beat them up, but
24 Vojislav Seselj said, Don't touch the police, and we listened to him.
25 Otherwise, we should have.
1 Now, could you repeat your question? You asked me three
2 questions, and I've answered the latter one, but could you repeat the
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I might have been a bit
5 lengthy, but I'd like to know the following, and it's absolutely
6 essential. I would like to know whether Mr. Seselj held a rally in
7 Mali Zvornik in 1992, just a few days before the attack on Zvornik.
8 A. Seselj -- Vojislav Seselj held a rally -- and let me repeat
9 again. I'm under oath here. I know the town. I was born there, I grew
10 up there, so I know everything about the town.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, just a minute. The
12 Presiding Judge is asking you a question about 1992, not about 1990.
13 A. Judge, please --
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] 1990, and now we're moving on to
15 1992. The Presiding Judge would like to know whether a rally was held in
16 Mali Zvornik in 1992 or whether Mr. Seselj visited the area or something
17 of the kind in the spring of 1992.
18 A. In 1992, even if the rally was held, I don't know whether -- I
19 wasn't there, but you couldn't have had Muslims there. Who could have
20 crossed the bridge in 1992 to fight in Serbia and collect up stones?
21 There were 2.000 people there, both Serbs and Muslims. I assume that's
22 common knowledge. It was war in 1992. And in the pre-war times, where
23 could they go when everybody was armed?
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for this
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But may I be allowed to add
2 something? We're back to the time when people were trying to get you to
3 join the Croatian front when you were a member of the Serbian Chetnik
4 Movement. You left by bus. There were 30 volunteers on the bus coming
5 from Valjevo and 20 volunteers from Belgrade. Do you remember this?
6 A. Madame Judge, I do remember that, but you're reading something
7 that's not true. Who could have forced me to go to the front? Only the
8 Army of Yugoslavia
9 military command means. It's the General Staff of Yugoslavia, that's
10 what it is. So I went to the front as a volunteer through the Radical
11 Party because of my relatives living in what is today Croatia
12 as a volunteer without orders from anybody. I joined up the Serbian
13 Radical Party. Nobody forced me to join up and to sign the membership
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Let me say that I never
16 mentioned any obligation that would have been imposed on you. All I said
17 is that obviously --
18 A. That's the interpretation I received.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
20 continues] ... to get you to go to the Croatian front among other
21 volunteers. I never said that you were obliged to do this, that anyone
22 forced you to do this. But the bus was full of volunteers, some coming
23 from Belgrade
24 is Valjevo, where is it? Is it in Serbia
25 A. Madame Judge, let me just explain something to you. The
1 interpretation I received was "how were you forced," "how did they force
2 you," and that's why, with all due respect, I have to say, and I
3 apologise for that, but nobody can force me to do anything, let alone
4 some local group or board of the Serbian Chetnik Movement. We --
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Let me tell you that even when I
6 look at the English transcript, it's obvious that I never talked about
7 any obligation that you might have had. But let's put this aside and
8 return to these volunteers, 20 hailing from Belgrade and 30 from Valjevo.
9 Where is Valjevo?
10 A. Valjevo, in relation to Mali Zvornik, do you want me to tell you
11 that? With respect to my place, it's 40 or 50 kilometres to the right,
12 towards -- well, the Drina River
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In Serbia?
15 A. Yes, yes, Serbia
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Now, regarding this first
17 attempt to get to the Croatian front: When you arrived in Belgrade
18 the HQ of the Serbian Chetnik Movement, who did you find there? Were
19 there any leaders?
20 A. Well, there were people from the Crisis Staff there,
21 Zoran Rankic, Ljubisa Petkovic, then from time to time
22 Dr. Vojislav Seselj would come. But I can't say that they were always
23 there together. One would come, the other one would go. Sometimes for,
24 say, 20 minutes, the three of them were there together, but otherwise
25 there would be this coming and going.
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And then there was another
2 attempt to join the Croatian front, and if I understood things correctly,
3 this second attempt was successful. And on that occasion, you went
4 directly to Belgrade
5 the Serbian Chetnik Movement.
6 A. The Crisis Staff, the premises of the Serbian Chetnik Movement.
7 Well, what did we come across there? We came across people working in
8 the Crisis Staff; that's all.
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Could you identify these people?
10 A. [Previous translation continues] ... your question. I don't
11 know. Zoran Rankic. I know that Ljubisa Petkovic was there, for
12 instance. I can't remember whether Zoran was there. It's been a long
13 time since then.
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Who is Golubovic, Golub, aka
16 A. Golubovic, Golub. Well, Golub is an inhabitant of Tenja. I
17 don't know who this Golubovic is. He's a tyre repairman in the village
18 of Tenja.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You met with him directly in
21 A. Yes, yes, yes.
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise. I was
23 a bit confused.
24 A. Well, I apologise. Maybe I'm speaking too loud.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
1 continues] ... connected to the Serbian Chetnik Movement or as of the
2 time to the Serbian Radical Party?
3 A. I don't know. Maybe -- well, it's normal that they had to --
4 well, the Serbian Radical Party had to find a connection, somebody to
5 take their men in there. There might have been some co-ordinator. I
6 really don't know. All I do know is that they sent us back once --
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Maybe Jovo Rebraca would have
8 been one of these co-ordinators, Jovo Rebraca.
9 A. Jovo Rebraca was the commander of the defence of the village of
10 Tenja, and after the war he was mayor, the president of the municipality
11 of Tenja.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] He was connected to the SRS or,
13 in general, to the Serbian Chetnik Movement?
14 A. I don't know. All I do know is that we -- when we arrived as
15 volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party, we went to Jovo Rebraca and we
16 were issued weapons. We didn't have any uniforms because we were poor,
17 so no uniforms. We had some overalls and some old rifles, but just so
18 that you could shoot once or twice and instill fear into someone. That
19 was all they were good for.
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In Tenja, you found Arkan's
21 unit; yes or no?
22 A. In passing, I saw -- well, I don't know where they were
23 stationed, but I did see them.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The unit of the Serbian
25 Chetnik -- unit of the Serbian Radical Party, you did not see that there
1 was a co-operation with them and the operation in the field together with
2 Arkan's unit?
3 A. Who could there have been co-operation with? Well, they were
4 better armed, they were powerful. I apologise. It's not that I'm
5 shouting at you. I'm speaking up so you can hear me better, and I,
6 myself, don't hear very well. My hearing has been impaired, so it's
7 difficult for me to control my voice. So I tend to shout a bit.
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Don't worry about it.
9 So was there any co-operation with Arkan's unit?
10 A. Certainly not. There couldn't have been any co-operation with
11 them because they were armed, powerful, and Arkan and Vojislav Seselj
12 didn't see eye to eye. They were arrogant. I think they hate each other
13 to this day. Well, the other one's dead now, but, anyway, that's what
14 I think.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Why did they hate each other?
16 A. Because Seselj, Vojislav Seselj, had other views about the
17 political life of Serbia
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And what was this diverging
20 A. Well, they differed because the Serb Chetniks -- or, rather, the
21 Serb Radicals were people who acted in accordance with the Geneva
22 Conventions, for example. I never saw Arkan kill anybody, either, but
23 these were rumours going 'round. But I didn't see anything so as to be
24 able to testify and say they killed so many people. But there were a lot
25 of dead bodies; that's a fact.
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did you ever meet Mr. Seselj.
2 A. I just saw him when I went over there, and then never again. As
3 a volunteer, when I went there as a volunteer.
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] At some point, what did you talk
5 about, if you spoke to him?
6 A. No, I didn't talk to him, personally. We would sort of exchange
7 a friendly, Good day to you, and, God be with us, and things like that,
8 but he went about his own business and we remained there and waited.
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And as a group, what did you
11 A. Could you repeat that? Could the interpreter please repeat that?
12 As a group, well, there was some jokes. We went to the party, we
13 were there, and we waited for contact, for transport. Rankic said that
14 Petkovic had to find means of going there. Ljubisa Petkovic didn't want
15 our lives to be at risk, so we had to wait for this to be secure. We
16 weren't supposed to be angry with Ljubisa. There were people who were
17 angry with him. They want to do beat him up. But Ljubisa was right,
18 because we would have ended up in Borovo Naselje, perhaps, where there
19 were only Croats, because we were going to go without weapons of any
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The Republika Srpska was
22 established. I wanted to know from you whether you knew anything about
23 it. What relationship existed between the leaders of the Serbian Radical
24 Party, and Mr. Seselj, more specifically, and the leaders of the
25 Republika Srpska?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge Lattanzi, I have to
3 Republika Srpska was established in 1992. So far, you have been
4 discussing 1991 with the witness, just to avoid confusion.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This was at a time when the
6 Republika Srpska was established in 1992. I need to finish in five
7 minutes' time. This is -- you are right, I skipped over these months.
8 I was asking the witness whether he knows anything about the
9 relationship between Mr. Seselj and the leaders of the Republika Srpska,
10 since you talk about it in your statements, your prior statements.
11 A. I really don't know anything about that. I'd like to know what
12 that statement says, who interpreted that statement of mine. I'll go to
14 what to do with him. Certain things continue to be attributed to me as
15 if I were an American.
16 I can't hear anything. I don't know if you can hear me.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No interpretation into the Serbian
18 language is being received.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear now.
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat. This might be my
21 mistake. Let me repeat.
22 In one of your statements -- in two of your statements, you say
23 that Janko Lakic, the secretary of the municipal Chetnik Movement, asked
24 you to join a group of young men from the Republika Srpska at a time when
25 the Republika Srpska had been established as such. Can you confirm this
1 or not?
2 A. Well, that was in 1991. That's what the story has to do with.
3 It was in November or October 1991. What kind of Republika Srpska? War
4 hadn't yet broken out.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In other words, the
6 Republika Srpska had not yet been proclaimed; is that right?
7 A. No. The war hadn't even broken out, Madame, in Republika Srpska.
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. Therefore, there
9 are a few problems with the statement.
10 A. I can see that.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] If the Republika Srpska existed
12 already, may I put this question: When Janko Lakic asked you to join a
13 group of young men, what did this have to do with? Young men from where,
14 from what party?
15 A. They were local men from the surrounding villages. They were
16 volunteers who, through the MUP --
17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You mention a trip that lasted
18 20 days to Baranja?
19 A. Yes, but this was through the MUP. There was the command of the
20 Serbian people who was in the Zvornik MUP in Bosnia. The chief was a
21 Muslim; the commander was a Serb. The commander, probably in secret,
22 organised a group to go and spend a little time at the front.
23 We set off in police uniforms with police insignia. We were
24 members of the police force. Everyone was cleanly shaven. We had tidy
25 haircuts, and so on and so form. It was a police unit, the police of the
1 Republic of Serbian
2 part of that force.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] To conclude, I would like to go
4 back a little bit and discuss what you were doing in the spring of 1992.
5 Were you in Zvornik, Mali
6 the spring of 1992.
7 A. Feel free to ask me about that. My memory is defective, so I
8 can't remember everything. Ask me whether I participated in a liberation
9 operation or not. I'll tell you everything. I don't know what you have
10 in mind when you ask me, What did you do? I was in Zvornik and did all
11 sorts of things. I even had mistresses there.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I first of all want to know
13 whether you were there or not, around Zvornik and Mali Zvornik.
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness's
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You did not hear of a visit by
17 Mr. Seselj, did you?
18 A. No, no. He didn't appear there and I didn't hear of such a
19 visit. I was present there until the beginning of the operation to
20 liberate Zvornik.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did you take part in the
22 liberation of Zvornik?
23 A. Yes, for a while, until a man was wounded by my side. I then
24 carried him on my back, the police of the Serbian people in Bosnia
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You were in the Serbian police
2 as a volunteer?
3 A. As a volunteer in the police force of the Serbian people of
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You were a volunteer
6 representing a particular group, a party? In other words, these
7 volunteers had been organised by a political party or on an individual
9 A. Your Honour, my wife is from Bosnia
10 member of any party, because the Serbian Radical Party expelled me from
11 the party because I refused to go --
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] That is something I know. I
13 know you were there as a volunteer, as a private individual.
14 Time has run out, unfortunately. I would have a lot of questions
15 to put to you still.
16 One last point. I would like to know why the volunteers of the
17 Serbian Chetnik Movement were driven out of Zvornik in 1992.
18 A. I wouldn't know how to answer that. The volunteers of the
19 Serbian Chetnik Movement weren't driven out of Zvornik. That's the first
20 thing. Zuco was driven out. I don't know in which year, but Zuco was
21 driven out.
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [No interpretation]
23 A. What do you mean Zuco. He was on his own. He didn't belong to
24 anyone. He belonged to himself. He didn't belong to the MUP. He wasn't
25 a member of the MUP, or of the police force, or of the Radical Party. I
1 don't know how to define him. The Yellow Wasp, that's what I could say.
2 What that, in fact, is, I don't know.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In other words, it is not true
4 to say that they were driven out of Zvornik because they were raping
6 A. What do you mean, raped them?
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't quite follow what the
8 witness said.
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Sorry, I didn't understand very
11 A. I said there are all sorts of things said in the statement, and
12 as a result I'd convert to a different faith, but I'll do that so as not
13 to irritate anyone once I leave these premises.
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] That is a private matter, and
15 it's a good thing you don't do it here. Thank you, sir.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we're going to have a
17 break now.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to have a break,
20 and then the Prosecutor will put his questions to you.
21 I have a follow-up question for you.
22 You said a while ago that you had been expelled from the Serbian
23 Radical Party. Could you tell us why you were expelled from the Serbian
24 Radical Party?
25 A. Because the rule of the Serbian Radical Party was as follows: If
1 someone voluntarily changes his or her -- his unit, the Serbian Radical
2 Party will no longer be responsible for him, won't have him on their
3 list, and they can't find him then. He can be killed and they won't even
4 know. They have to know where their men are. I remained down there
5 without anyone being aware of the fact, so that's the only reason. I
6 stayed on there. I was no longer one of their men.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] From what date onwards,
9 A. 1991. I don't know when exactly, I really couldn't say. I'd
10 like to answer that question, believe me, but I don't know. A certain
11 number of days later, when I went to Rebraca, that was when, but I don't
12 know the exact date. I'd like to answer your question, believe me.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said something,
14 despite yourself, something which is important, and you didn't notice
15 that you were saying it. You've just said that the Serbian Radical Party
16 wanted to know exactly where their men were located. When you said that,
17 one has the feeling -- I might be mistaken, but one has the feeling that
18 the Serbian Radical Party was exercising control over its members who
19 were in different units. Is this what you have said?
20 A. Yes, I said that they would visit us to see how we were
21 conducting ourselves, to see whether there were problems with the local
22 inhabitants, whether we were maltreating anyone. If people drank too
23 much, they'd take them home. Sometimes they'd bring us a pack of
24 cigarettes. And that was it. There were no orders issued of any kind.
25 The party can't issue such orders.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You anticipated my following
2 question invariably. What I'm interested in is to know whether, from
4 activities of the members of the Serbian Radical Party or whether these
5 units were solely placed under the control of the Territorial Defence or
6 of the JNA. What can you say to us about this?
7 A. At the beginning, when I left, the JNA had a buffer zone
8 established there and performed UNPROFOR duties, duties similar to those
9 that UNPROFOR had. Later on, according to what I heard, according to
10 rumours which are true, they went to Bubanj Potok. That could be seen on
11 the television. They would get dressed, put on uniforms, and they would
12 be JNA members. There were no insignia of any kind, but they had JNA
13 uniforms and everything else they needed. That was on television, and
14 I'm familiar with that, but I wasn't present there. So, I don't know,
15 perhaps I'm mistaken too.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question -- my
17 penultimate question: According to you, did the Serbian Radical Party
18 know at any point in time where its volunteers were? Did they know, for
19 instance, that X was in such and such a unit, Y in such and such another
20 unit? Is this something -- is this something they knew permanently?
21 A. In my opinion, they should have been aware of where their
22 combatants were. They should have known whether the men were alive,
23 whether someone had been arrested, whether someone had been wounded, and
24 if so, they should be transferred to a hospital so to avoid worries of
25 such kind.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question now. A while
2 ago, my colleague mentioned the Republika Srpska to you. As far as you
3 know, did the VRS, i.e., the Army of the Republika Srpska, commanded by
4 General Mladic, still to be located to this day -- according to you, did
5 the soldiers of the Republika Srpska have along side them units made up
6 of volunteers coming from Serbia
7 the control of the JNA or of the political parties in Serbia? Is that a
8 possibility or not?
9 A. Your Honour, I only spent about seven months down there in
10 Zvornik, so you could ask someone in a bar whether this was possible or
11 not. But Ratko Mladic and the Army of Republika Srpska hadn't been
12 established at the time I was down there, so I'm in no position to say
13 yes or no. If I could answer the question, I would. I'm telling you the
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You can't answer this question,
16 which was a rather complicated question.
17 Thank you. You may now rest for 20 minutes. We shall resume
18 this hearing in 20 minutes' time.
19 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is back in session.
22 Before giving the floor to Mr. Marcussen for his hour and thirty
23 minutes of cross-examination, let me remind a few things to the witness.
24 The witness is now a witness of justice, which means that he is
25 not to contact anyone until tomorrow. You're still under oath until
1 tomorrow, and the Trial Chamber is asking you not to answer any questions
2 from the press or from anyone, to make sure that we do not run into any
4 Have you understood this?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat that
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am telling you that you are
8 now a witness of justice because you took the oath, the solemn
9 declaration, so now you are not to contact anyone until tomorrow. Do not
10 answer people who might be calling you on the phone, do not talk to
11 reporters, and so forth. That way, we will not run into any problems.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, both of my phones have been
14 disconnected since yesterday, so I haven't spoken to anyone since
15 yesterday. I'm familiar with the rules of procedure, and that's not a
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Congratulations, well done.
18 Mr. Marcussen, you have an hour and thirty minutes. The
19 Registrar will be keeping time.
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the floor.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Marcussen:
23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jovic. My name is Mathias Marcussen. I am
24 the senior trial attorney for the Office of the Prosecutor in this case.
25 I am presenting myself to you because we have never met; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. Good day to you, too.
2 Q. I don't believe we've ever met; is that correct?
3 A. No, we've never met. Perhaps, but we didn't know each other at
4 the time. Anything is possible.
5 Q. I guess that's true. I wanted to ask you first: I understand
6 that you have not been communicating with anyone since yesterday. You
7 mentioned earlier today one of your friends, Novak Savic, who tried to
8 help you find a job. When did you last speak to him?
9 A. Before the Chamber issued an order stating that I shouldn't speak
10 to members of the Prosecution or members of the Defence.
11 Q. Mr. Jovic -- and I'm sorry if it appears to be odd. I don't know
12 where to be looking to be looking at you, so I'm looking down at the
13 monitor, where I see you. So it might appear weird to you, but I'm not
14 sort of disinterested in your questions -- in your answers. Sorry if it
15 appears that way.
16 I would like first to ask you about a statement that you gave to
17 the OTP in 2006, and I would like if the usher could show you 65 ter
18 07330. It is in the binder that should be down in your end as well. And
19 if it may assist, it's the binder called Binder 1, the Court binder. So,
20 again, it's 65 ter 07330.
21 Mr. Jovic, I see that everyone's getting ready. You're getting
22 your glasses ready, and the usher is getting ready.
23 How's your health?
24 A. It's quite standard. I can now walk and communicate. I have
25 cured some problems I had with my vertebrae, and everyone else is as it
1 was. But my therapy, the therapy I have, is good.
2 Q. I'm glad for you. Mr. Jovic, are you now able to see the
3 statement that I talked about in your own language?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Now, if we look at the first page, is that -- is your signature
6 on the page that you're looking at, on the first page, down at the
7 left-hand corner?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. And do you recognise your statement? Do you remember signing
10 this statement in October 2006?
11 A. It's possible. 2006, I don't know what it contains. If I have a
12 look at its contents, I'll be able to remember.
13 Q. Okay. We will get -- we will get to this. Maybe you will be
14 kind enough to just look at the pages and confirm for me that your
15 signature is at the bottom of the pages. Maybe you don't need to look at
16 every one of the pages, but just sort of flick through and confirm that
17 it's actually your statement -- your signature.
18 A. It is, yes. That's it, yes.
19 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to ask you some questions
20 about some things in the statement.
21 You have testified today about the rally in Mali Zvornik, which
22 ended with a brawl, and how you next, the next day, signed up as a member
23 of the SCP
24 a big impression on you, and that was one of the reasons why you joined
25 the parties, wasn't it?
1 A. I've already said that I didn't listen to Seselj's speech because
2 he was inside the hall and I was outside, so I didn't hear.
3 Q. But you had heard -- you had heard Seselj's speeches on
4 television, and you were familiar with what he stood for, and that was
5 one of the most important reasons why you joined the party; isn't that
7 A. Well, it's true that I joined because of Mali Zvornik and the
8 brawl between the Muslims and Serbs in front of the eyes of the police
9 force, with the policemen standing there.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, the Prosecutor is using
11 inadmissible ways of going about this. The Serbian Chetnik Movement
12 wasn't even registered then, and it was only in December 1990 that I was
13 allowed to appear on television. So it's not up to the Prosecutor to
14 think things up. I wasn't on television in the 1990s -- in 1990.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, these are things the accused can
17 raise in his cross-examination.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN:
20 Q. So, Mr. Jovic, are you saying that you -- what I said is not
21 true; you did not know of Seselj's programme and had heard about his --
22 what he had been saying about the situation in Croatia, and that was one
23 of the most important -- or that was the most important reason why you
24 should join the SCP
25 A. I said, and I'm going to repeat it again -- and don't upset me,
1 because my blood pressure is going to soar. I joined the Serbian Chetnik
2 Movement in 1990 because of the brawl in Mali Zvornik that broke out. So
3 don't keep asking me the same leading questions and put words into my
5 Q. I'm asking you because if you look at paragraph 29 of the
6 statement you have in front of you, I believe that what I've just said to
7 you is actually coming from there. It's not something I'm making up.
8 It's in your statement.
9 A. You're asking me the same thing five times over.
10 Q. Only two, I think.
11 A. All right, but I heard something along those lines earlier. I'll
12 just take a moment to read it, and then I'll be able to answer. What is
13 there bad about that? Seselj spoke up against Slobodan Milosevic. Is
14 that a problem?
15 Q. I have not said anything about anything being bad. I just asked
16 you a question about why you joined the SCP, and I put to you that you
17 did that -- one of the reasons you did that was that you had seen Seselj,
18 you knew what he stood for, and therefore you joined the party. You
19 disagreed with that, but do I understand now that you do agree that that
20 was one of the important reasons why you joined?
21 A. Well, please believe me when I say that I wasn't a member of the
22 Serbian Radical Party. But when all this is over, I'm going to ask to be
23 admitted in writing. I'm going to make a written request to join.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, stay calm, and please
25 answer the questions put to you by the Prosecution. You are a Chamber
1 witness, and therefore Mr. Marcussen is allowed -- is entitled to put
2 questions to you in such a way.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I fully support what my
4 fellow Judge has said. So far, up until now, this hearing ran very
5 smoothly. You answered all questions put to you by the Judges. The
6 Prosecutor is now doing his job. He's putting questions to you. We
7 could have put the same questions. So please stay cool. Listen
8 carefully to the question put to you by Mr. Marcussen and then answer
9 just quietly and carefully.
10 Mr. Marcussen, you may continue.
11 MR. MARCUSSEN:
12 Q. Mr. Jovic, we'll move on to something else. I think you've been
13 quite helpful on this already.
14 Mr. Jovic, when you went back to the SCP headquarters in Belgrade
15 for the second time before you went to Tenja, Seselj was present, and he
16 was giving orders to Rankic, to Petkovic, and Stefanovic, and other
17 members of the SCP
19 A. I didn't understand those last two words. Could you repeat the
20 last two words? "Supervised their work," is that what you said?
21 Q. That's correct. He gave ordered to them and supervised their
23 A. Well, of course. He was the party president, so that's quite
24 normal if you're president.
25 Q. And, indeed, your impression was he was in absolute control over
1 the SCP
2 A. Well, I did gain that impression then, but later on I saw that
3 one party had its executive board and that they had all the institutions
4 that are necessary to a party, because nobody can make decisions on his
5 own about anything.
6 Q. Right. And Seselj was addressed as "vojvoda" when you were there
7 at that time?
8 A. Yes. Why not? Seselj was --
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. Well, in America
11 honour and respect.
12 Q. So what I've just put to you comes from paragraph 27 of the
13 statement you have in front of you, and so I believe that's actually
14 correct, what's in the statement there.
15 Now, in August 1991, you went to Tenja, and nobody told you how
16 civilians were to be treated during the operations that you were to
17 engage in; right?
18 A. No, that's not right.
19 Q. And your impression was that -- or, actually, you, meaning, in
20 plural, the volunteers that went, you knew that the purpose was to chase
21 the Croatian civilians out of the village of Tenja
22 A. I said, in answer to the first question, that you were not right,
23 Mr. Prosecutor. You don't seem to have heard me.
24 Q. So I lift this from -- I put my question based on paragraph 32 of
25 your statement that you have in front of you. So what you're telling is
1 incorrect, what's in your statement there?
2 Your Honours, it seems that the transmission has been
3 disconnected, so I guess we need to have, maybe, a break.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, we're trying to
5 bring the connection back up. Let's wait for the connection to be back,
6 to be up again.
7 Mr. Seselj, time is of the essence. I believe you had some
8 administrative matters that you wanted to discuss. Maybe we could take
9 advantage of this opportunity to do this.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you seem to have got the
11 connection back.
12 Yes, I did say that.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Too late, the witness is back
14 on the screen, so let's continue with the witness.
15 Mr. Seselj, what do you have to say?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have several administrative
17 matters to raise, Mr. President, so perhaps I could raise some of them
18 now. However, the connection seems to be established again.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, the line has failed again.
20 So please go on with the administrative matters.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would leave the most important
22 matters for tomorrow. But just not to waste time, I'll raise some things
24 Yesterday, I received -- well, I'll do my best, and I guarantee
25 that I'll succeed not to say anything that shouldn't be uttered in open
1 session, although it's not a confidential document, but to avoid us going
2 into private session. I received an urgent request from the Prosecutor,
3 dated the 22nd of June. It was handed over to me yesterday. I think
4 that the request is quite nonsensical, and I think that you can see that
5 by the title, by looking at the title. And within the space of a
6 fortnight, I will respond in writing to that request.
7 Next, the Prosecutor tabled a request, dated the 19th of May,
8 which I was served on the 14th of June, saying that selected Mladic
9 documents should be added to the court files, and I received information
10 from the Prosecutor today that the material is available, as they say,
11 EDB, the system for electronic data serving, and that I'll be able to
12 find that in a scanned version of Mladic's diaries. Now, I can't seem to
13 find that there, so we'll have to wait for the transcripts of those
14 note-books to be completed. And the Prosecutor says that that is an
15 ongoing process. When they'll be completed, we don't know. But I'd just
16 like to inform you that this EDB system for electronic transmission of
17 documents means nothing to me. I don't know what it is.
18 Next, on the 15th of June, I received a request from the
19 Prosecution for them to reserve the right to respond to exhibits
20 presented to the Trial Chamber after the 1st of June, 2010. And this is
21 the Prosecution case, so why does he want to respond to documents
22 presented after the 1st of June?
23 Then, once again, I have several requests from the Prosecution.
24 I think that we have stated our positions on some of them, but I have two
25 here, one sent on the 22nd of June, and we have not stated our position
1 on that, the request from the Prosecution for the admittance of exhibits
2 linked to the previous witness statements. Now, all these exhibits is
3 something that the Prosecutor was duty-bound to present in court and then
4 to tender them into evidence, and not to do it this way subsequently,
5 post festum. It's a document dated the 1st of June, 2010. I was given
6 it on the 22nd of June, and it comprises a large number of documents.
7 Furthermore -- well, now I come to something which would take up
8 more time, so I'm going to leave that for tomorrow, if that's all right
9 with you, because -- well, there's another document that I was given.
10 It's a confidential one, and so I'm going to take great care not to say
11 anything that I shouldn't.
12 A witness testified here in court under protective measures. And
13 after a certain amount of time, an incident took place in a cafe, there
14 was a brawl, in which a close relative of his took part. The local
15 police -- it's not the Serb police that carried an on-site investigation.
16 Anyway, they interviewed all those present, and all the citizens present
17 were neutral, objective observers, did not mention that a close relative
18 of the person involved in the brawl was a close relative of the protected
19 witness. They're just describing the brawl, and it was the brother of
20 the protected witness and the former husband -- the ex-husband of the
21 sister were engaged in this brawl. And after this incident broke out,
22 the police, made up of Muslims and Croats, collected statements. Those
23 present had no idea that this person testified in my trial, and it was
24 only relatives who made statements and said that the brawl broke out
25 because of his testifying in this courtroom.
1 Now, you supplied me with all the documents. I have reviewed
2 them, and I am astounded that something like that is possible at all. So
3 that means that anybody in future closely related or distance relatives,
4 if they enter into any conflict or brawl, whether they're right or wrong,
5 everything will be linked to their possible testimony at this trial,
6 whereas the Muslim and Croat who sent you these statements, they claim
7 that this has -- that this is connected to the secret testimony during
8 this trial.
9 I think, Your Honours, that you have read through the material,
10 you know all about this incident, and that there's no need for me to go
11 into the details of what is contained in those documents. And after you
12 studied them, you handed the documents to me so that I could become
13 acquainted with the contents.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We took due note of
15 what you said.
16 Yesterday, we issued four decisions. They were filed, but I
17 believe that you did not get them yet because they have to be translated.
18 I hope that you will soon have them.
19 The witness is still not on the screen, so we do have a problem.
20 Mr. Seselj, I'll take advantage of this opportunity to think
21 about the future. You know that this is our last witness. After this,
22 we will enter into a new phase, Rule 98 bis phase. But as you mentioned
23 earlier, there's still some pending motions, notably those dealing with
24 the Mladic diaries, and I'm sure that in some time the Prosecution will
25 tell us exactly what its position is, and the Chamber will rule on it.
1 All this will take time. So after scrutinising the schedule as it is, I
2 don't think that we can start the Rule 98 bis hearing before September,
3 before early September.
4 Furthermore, the Rule in Article 65 ter of the Rules of Procedure
5 and Evidence, it says, and I will read it slowly, but I'm sure you know
6 it as well as the Judges do, this is a public hearing, so we might as
7 well inform the public at large, Article 65 ter (G) of the Regulation
8 says the following:
9 "After the presentation of the Prosecution case and before the
10 presentation of the Defence case, the Pre-Trial Judge," and for those who
11 might have forgotten, let me remind you that it was myself, and as
12 Presiding Judge, I can appoint the Pre-Trial Judge or appoint myself,
13 "orders the Defence to disclose a list of witnesses that the Defence
14 wishes to call, stating: the name or pseudonym of each of these
15 witnesses; a summary of the facts that each witness will testify on; the
16 items in the indictment on which each witness will be heard; the number
17 of witnesses; and the number of witnesses who will testify on each count;
18 whether the witness will testify viva voce or according to Rule 92 bis or
19 92 quater. There might be a need for a written statement or a transcript
20 of previous testimony."
21 And then:
22 "F. The estimated time for each testimony."
23 And then:
24 "2. A list of all exhibits that the Defence wishes to present to
25 support its case."
1 So as you see, you are legally bound to prepare all this and to
2 tell us your witness list, with the name of each witness, the time you
3 request for each witness, and so forth and so on.
4 I would like to know whether you've already started working on
5 this and whether today you can shed some light on what you're about to
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, why would I work at
8 that now? According to 98 bis, you make the judgement. And on the basis
9 of that judgement, you size up the results of the Prosecution case.
10 There is the theoretical possibility that that be completely an
11 exculpatory judgement, a judgement before acquittal. Why should I put
12 the cart before the horse and engage all my scant resources, because the
13 people who help me out are not paid, so why should I resort to that now?
14 Now, judging by the success scored by the Prosecution thus far,
15 you can bring in a complete judgement of acquittal. Now, I'm not a naive
16 man, myself. I know that not everything depends on your will, because
17 even if there is an intimation of the possibility where I might find
18 myself at liberty, there's general panic in Belgrade. Many people panic;
19 the regime, the opposition, those play-acting at being the opposition.
20 But that's another matter.
21 Now, under Rule 98 bis, you first of all listened to the
22 individual parties. We discussed this issue last time, and I said that I
23 need about four hours, which is as much as Mr. Marcussen asked for, but
24 we didn't actually consult the Rule. Now, since you are listening to the
25 two parties, Mr. Marcussen will state his views first and then I go
1 second, because the Prosecutor goes first and the accused goes second,
2 and then it's up to you to make your judgement. And once you have
3 judged, you can either confirm that the Prosecutor was successful,
4 judging by mostly your opinions, or you can judge that he was not
5 successful and make a judgement of acquittal. But judging by this
6 92 bis, you first of all -- we now seem to have a musical accompaniment.
7 I don't really like this music. Can you hear the music or have I gone
8 mad? But there is certainly some music that we can hear.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're right, there is music in
10 the background. So before continuing --
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't like this sort of music
12 accompaniment. I like Serb folk music, so if they play that to me, I can
13 sing a song. I can sing you some Chetnik songs, too, but I just don't
14 like this music. It doesn't suit me.
15 But I want to act properly towards you, and for me to do that, I
16 cannot present my Defence case until you resolve the matter of finance.
17 If I'm not paid, in conformity with case law so far and the practice at
18 this Tribunal, in the pre-trial phase and in the trial phase, if I'm not
19 able to pay my associates, they won't want to work for me anymore, and
20 that will bring the trial to an end straight away.
21 Now, you informed me that the Registrar has received eight
22 documents regarding my material -- my financial status. I haven't seen
23 those documents yet, but I assume that the Registrar has a complete
24 picture of my finances. However, the Registrar is trying to trick me all
25 the time, bringing in new rules, as if I'm interested in these new rules,
1 the new rules enacted by the Registrar. I adhere to the Statute and the
2 Rules of Procedure and Evidence, and, in my view, it's only the
3 Trial Chamber that can make decisions of that kind and not the Registrar.
4 The Registrar takes it into his head to bring in new provisions and rules
5 and I should adapt. I'm not going to adapt. I provided all the data
6 about my property in 2003, and as far as I'm concerned, that closes the
8 You know how much the Defence before this Tribunal costs, on the
9 basis of what it cost at other trials. I am the third-most serious
10 category. You know how much the pre-trial phase costs and how much the
11 trial phase costs. And as I'm my own lawyer, you can deduct half of
12 that, because I'm not going to ask the Tribunal to pay me for my services
13 for defending myself. And it's about half what other lawyers receive in
14 other trials, but the other half has to be paid out to my associates on
15 the basis of what they've done, and the work they've done can be proved
16 on the basis of their written submissions. They did much more than any
17 other lawyer in the pre-trial phase, and they've supplied me very
18 successfully with material in this stage of the Tribunal. So I was far
19 more successful than the Prosecutor. And so many Prosecutors have
20 changed places here, 10 of them, but I've dealt with all of them and
21 brought them down to their knees, as the Serbs like to say.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj, the
23 witness is back on the screen. It seems that the connection is up again.
24 We'll continue with this tomorrow. I'm sure we'll have some time to
25 discuss pending items, but we can continue.
1 Mr. Marcussen, you have the floor.
2 MR. MARCUSSEN:
3 Q. Mr. Jovic, you -- when you were in Tenja, you were with a unit
4 from the SCP
5 Mr. Jovic, could you hear my question or do we have another
6 technical problem?
7 A. Yes, but -- I heard you, but I thought you were going to ask me
8 something after that. Yes, I was in the Movement of the Serbian -- I was
9 in the Serbian Chetnik Movement in Tenja.
10 Q. But you left that unit because you didn't like the people,
11 because there were some thefts in the unit and people drank a lot; isn't
12 that true?
13 A. No, that's not true, that's not true. I have already repeated
14 why I left. You have to put your questions, so I respect that, but --
15 Q. And eventually the unit was sent away from Tenja because the TO
16 commander could not control them anymore; isn't that true?
17 A. That's not correct. They were transferred for strategic needs.
18 They were transferred to another location that I'm not aware of, because
19 I wasn't part of the command staff.
20 Q. So you're saying that -- maybe we don't need to go to it, but I'm
21 putting my questions because this is the contents of paragraphs 39 and 41
22 of your statement.
23 Now, let me put to you another question from your statement.
24 You had joined the SCP
25 and Milosevic were working together; isn't that true?
1 A. It's not true. Who said that, who inserted that? Where does
2 that -- where can that be found?
3 Q. It can be found in paragraph 52 of your statement, and also in
4 paragraph 13.
5 A. I'll find it now.
6 Q. I take your question [sic]. You're saying this is -- this is not
7 correct. I take your answer, that it's not correct. I think the
8 Trial Chamber has heard that answer.
9 A. It's certainly not correct.
10 Q. Now, from December to March 19 -- from December 1991 to March
11 1992, you participated in three transports of weapons from Darda to the
12 Zvornik area; isn't that true?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Sorry, could you repeat that? That didn't come through, what you
15 said. Sorry, we couldn't hear your answer.
16 A. I said that that is correct. I don't know the dates, however,
17 because I didn't participate in them.
18 Q. I think there's a confusion. You participated in three weapons
19 transports; right?
20 A. I said correct.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The witness said, "I
22 participated in that, I said correct."
23 MR. MARCUSSEN:
24 Q. And when you went to Darda, the chief of police from Zvornik and
25 you met with Radoslav Kostic; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, the police commander, not the chief. The chief of police
2 was a Muslim.
3 Q. Thank you for that clarification. And Kostic was a member of the
4 Serbian State Security Service; is that correct?
5 A. No. Kostic was Martic's deputy. He was the deputy minister for
7 Q. And during one of these -- one of the occasion you were up to
8 fetch weapons, you heard a conversation between the police -- I
9 apologise -- the police commander from Zvornik and Kostic, where the
10 police commander said that Radmilo Bogdanovic had promised more weapons;
11 isn't that true?
12 A. One could say so, and for weapons that were better, of better
14 Q. And so in the weapons transports where you participated, four or
15 five truckloads of weapons were brought back to the Zvornik area;
17 A. No, not that many. I can't remember how many exactly. A lot of
18 time has passed since then.
19 Q. And you saw Radoslav Kostic drive a red BMW with police state
20 security license plates; correct?
21 A. An SDB vehicle? I'm not familiar with any such vehicle. What
22 does it say on the registration plates? Could someone tell me? It says
23 "State Security?" Does it say "State Security"? You'd have people
24 shooting on it. There was a civilian Golf with a registration number for
25 Bijeli Manastir.
1 Q. I'm referring to paragraph 66 of your statement, where it says:
2 "I assumed that Kostic held a high position because he drove a
3 State Security car, a dark red BMW with Police State Security plates."
4 A. 66, is that what you said?
5 Q. Correct.
6 A. He was superior to someone else because he had a better car, he
7 drove a better car. Radoslav Kostic drove a Golf car with registration
8 plates for Beli Manastir.
9 Q. So the statement here is not true?
10 A. Certain things have been inserted. It's partially true I
11 recognise, or I admit that certain things were true. I did say that I
12 escorted these weapons. That's true and that's what I said, but I won't
13 lie here. I'm not going to concern things that are not true before the
14 Tribunal and the Chamber. Rita should justify this, explain this.
15 Q. You also met a person called Marko Pavlovic when you were in
16 Darda for the weapons transports; is that correct?
17 A. I met someone -- not him, but quite a few people, and he was
18 among those whom I met.
19 Q. And Marko Pavlovic was a subordinate of Kostic; right?
20 A. Well, they were friends. I don't know. You couldn't say that he
21 stood in front of him peacefully. They were civilians.
22 Q. In paragraph 66 of your statement, you say:
23 "My assumption is that Marko Pavlovic and Dragan Spasojevic were
24 on the same level, and that Kostic was superior to both."
25 A. Kostic was in his territory in the Republic of Serbian Krajina
1 He was the deputy minister. Of course, he was superior to everyone in
3 Don't hold it against me if I put it this way.
4 And I apologise for what I said a little earlier on. I have high
5 blood pressure, so it's sometimes difficult for me to control myself.
6 But we can continue discussing matters.
7 Q. Thank you. Not to worry.
8 The weapons that you brought back from Darda were stored in the
9 Zvornik area, and then in March and April they were distributed by the
12 A. Naturally, but I have to add that these weapons were old weapons
13 from the Territorial Defence, weapons that had been written off. There
14 were old rifles and so on and so forth. There was nothing new, nothing
15 very lethal.
16 Q. And when those --
17 A. Why this person complained and said, Why isn't there anything
18 new, since the person -- or, rather, the man said that there were such
20 Q. And the weapons that were brought in were brought in because
21 preparations were ongoing for war; would that be correct?
22 A. Of course, because the Patriotic League had already been
23 established. The Muslims were armed to the teeth at the time.
24 Q. And in April 1992, war did, indeed, break out. And as you have
25 explained earlier, you participated in the -- on the Serbian side during
1 the attack on Zvornik; correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Before the actual attack started, you went to Hotel Jezero in
4 Mali Zvornik; correct?
5 A. I didn't receive any interpretation.
6 Q. You were sent to Hotel Jezero in Mali Zvornik by the commander of
7 the police, for whom you were the bodyguard, is that correct, right
8 before the attack?
9 A. I don't know what it's about. Ask me quite freely. I'll tell
10 you, because the Jezero Hotel, I spent time there all the time; now, too.
11 So are you referring to negotiations with the Serbs? If that is what you
12 have in mind, please tell me, and I will tell you the truth.
13 Q. That is what I have in mind. You were sent there to arrest the
14 delegates, a number of the delegates, in those negotiations?
15 A. Yes, to take them from the hall to a flat on a floor. The
16 commander issued this order to me, Spasojevic.
17 Q. And you were told to take the members of the delegation to
18 Room 101; correct?
19 A. Perhaps it was 101. I've forgotten. It was a long time ago.
20 That's possible, but I did take them to the flat.
21 Q. And, actually, that room, or that flat, as you call it, had been
22 reserved for Marko Pavlovic and Kostic; isn't that true?
23 A. Anything is possible, but I have no information about that.
24 Perhaps -- perhaps that's why they sent them there, but I have no
25 information about that.
1 Q. In your statement, you say that the room had been reserved for
2 those two men, and that the manager of the hotel was shocked that you
3 knew because it was supposed to be secret. And that's in paragraph 86 of
4 your statement. But let's move on.
5 At one point --
6 A. Perhaps it's possible. Let's say that that's how it was,
7 because -- well, what are you asking me now? Can I proceed?
8 Q. It's possible that the statement is correct? Actually, you don't
9 think it's incorrect?
10 A. Yes, I'm not saying that it's incorrect. I'm not sure. A lot of
11 time has passed since then, and many things have been forgotten.
12 Q. And you were guarding the delegation, and then at one point Arkan
13 came into the room?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And later on, you overheard -- you overheard Arkan give the
16 Muslim participants in the delegation an ultimatum, that they should
17 evacuate Zvornik?
18 A. Yes, that was his position.
19 Q. And later on --
20 A. It was his position at the time.
21 Q. So Arkan issued an ultimatum. Now, Arkan had come to -- had come
22 to the Zvornik area sometime before at the request of the commander of
23 the police; correct?
24 A. I don't know with whom he was reaching an agreement. I really
25 don't know. But it is a fact that he appeared there, but from Zvornik,
1 in Bosnia
2 Q. Right. He was on the Serbian side of the Drina River
3 he set up a base before the attack; correct?
4 A. No one could prevent him from doing this, forbid him. He would
5 go where he wanted to go.
6 Q. And you were familiar with this, and you knew that he was there
7 because he was planning the attack on Zvornik; correct?
8 A. I didn't know that an attack on Zvornik was being planned. When
9 the barricades went up in Zvornik, then one saw what was going to happen.
10 But I was there when the delegation was present in the hotel. There were
11 Serbian negotiators and there were Muslim negotiators.
12 Q. And following the ultimatum by Arkan, he, that is, Arkan, also
13 commanded the operation that was carried out by the Serb forces to take
14 over Zvornik; is that correct?
15 A. That's not correct. Arkan commanded his unit. The other Serbian
16 forces were part of the Crisis Staff of the Serbs who lived in Bosnia
17 the time. Now, it is Republika Srpska.
18 Q. You say in your statement that:
19 "During the attack, you all came under Arkan's command. He led
20 the operation, although the decision must have been reached at the
21 headquarters when the commanders, including Arkan, met."
22 So -- and that is in paragraph 93 of your statement. So there
23 you say that Arkan was in the overall operational command of the
24 operation; right?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies.
1 MR. MARCUSSEN:
2 Q. Mr. Jovic, you said something which I think the interpreters were
3 not able to catch, so maybe you can repeat your answer.
4 A. To see about that, I have to read that. I have to read it and
5 see what it says exactly.
6 Is this in English? You said paragraph 23; is that correct?
7 Q. 93.
8 A. 93. It's partially correct. It's not correct to say that he was
9 in command of the entire operation for the liberation of Zvornik, but
10 it's true that he was in command of a group that was with him at the
11 barricades on the bridge.
12 Q. So he was in command of you?
13 A. Yes, he was my commander. I was a member of the MUP, but the MUP
14 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I was a mobilised policeman, and that's it.
15 So he didn't have command over that unit. He was quite simply there when
16 we set off. He returned. He didn't advance with us.
17 Q. And you say in paragraph 92 of your statement that:
18 "The group that were involved in the attack included 50 of
19 Seselj's Chetniks."
20 I think you've said something different today, but isn't it true
21 that there were 50 of Seselj's Chetniks or members of the SDS SIS
22 involved in the attack?
23 A. That's note true. I can claim with full responsibility that
24 these were members of Zvornik, Karakaj, and other surrounding villages.
25 I know those people. I live a kilometre from where they live, as the
1 crow flies.
2 Q. Mr. Jovic, I have to tell you that I have the distinction
3 impression that your statement is correct except when there is any
4 mention of Seselj in the statement. Can you help me understand that?
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I need to put a question to the
7 You say that these were locals, but were they nonetheless
8 connected in some way to the Serbian Radical Party, because they might
9 have been members of the Serbian Radical Party or recruited by the
10 Serbian Radical Party, sympathisers of the Serbian Radical Party,
11 perhaps, even if they did not come from Serbia?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't have their own
13 commander. They weren't organised. They followed Arkan because they saw
14 that there was someone in command there. So they went there of their own
15 free will. But when the Prosecution says that I'm lying whenever --
16 please listen to me. Let me say this. If you say that I'm lying, well,
17 I'll lie, but you have to say this in public. I'm telling you the truth,
18 though, and I've taken a solemn declaration, I'm under oath. No one is
19 going to humiliate me.
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, perhaps we have not
21 understood each other well. I'm not saying that you are lying. This is
22 not what is in issue. We addressed -- or the Prosecutor put questions to
23 you about a different group. This was not Arkan's group. This was
24 another group, a group which is mentioned in the statement you gave the
25 OTP, which you characterised as being members of the Serbian Radical
1 Party, Seseljevci, Seselj's men. So my question relates to this group.
2 This is why I wanted to ask you this.
3 You said that they came from the neighbouring villages when the
4 attack on Zvornik took place, so you wanted to say that they did not come
5 from Serbia
6 that these people did not come from Serbia.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please explain to me,
8 what does the scum group mean, Seselj's scum group? Do you know what
9 "scum" "means? Do you know what the word "schlum" [phoen] means in
10 Serbian, "scum"? The interpretation I received was "the scum group."
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I don't know what that is. I
12 said "Seseljevci, Seselj's men."
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard "the schlamovi [phoen]
14 group." In English, "the scum group, Seselj's group, Seselj's men. "
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to say something
16 about the interpreters. You must be extremely careful when you
17 interpret. My colleague never discussed scum. Why is it that in B/C/S,
18 this is translated as "scum"? Judge Lattanzi talked about Seselj's men.
19 I would like to caution the interpreters when they are working. Thank
20 you. The witness has just said, himself, that he heard the word "scum"
21 in his own language. This has never been said either by Mr. Marcussen or
22 Judge Lattanzi.
23 Witness, are you quite sure that you heard this in your language,
24 the word "scum"?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm certain I heard the word
1 "schlum" or "scum," "Seselj's men, scum." I'm certain about that. I
2 have the impression that someone wants to irritate me because they can
3 see that I'm ill, that I am a little bit on edge, so please protect me.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I am protecting you.
5 If I step in, it is because I have discovered a problem. It will be a
6 very serious matter to translate "scum" when no one has ever mentioned
7 the word. I would like the person in charge of the interpretation
8 services at the Tribunal to check this out and check the soundtrack.
9 This is a digression.
10 It is now 7.00 p.m.
11 Witness, you can stop. This is tiring to answer questions, as
12 you can see. Have a good rest. We shall meet again tomorrow at quarter
13 past 2.00 p.m.
14 after that Mr. Seselj will have an hour and a half to put questions to
15 you. So these are my instructions. Have a good rest, and be fit and
16 well for tomorrow.
17 I hope you have understood me well.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I wish you all the best
19 as well.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I wish you, as well as everyone
21 in the courtroom, a pleasant evening.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of July,
25 2010, at 2.15 p.m.