Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 285

1 Wednesday, 7 June 2000

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 5.05 p.m.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Could we

7 have the case number, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your

9 Honours. Case number IT-95-8-PT, the Prosecutor versus

10 Damir Dosen and Dragan Kolundzija.

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I don't

12 think you had the microphone on. Well, all right, it

13 doesn't matter.

14 May we have the appearances, please? Could

15 we have the appearances, please. [In English] We are

16 late, and I hope it will be repaired soon.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us?

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] If you would

19 introduce yourself, please.

20 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Brenda

21 Hollis, Kapila Waidyaratne, and Dan Saxon appear on

22 behalf of the Prosecutor.

23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

24 very much.

25 MR. VUCICEVIC: Good afternoon, Judge. Dusan

Page 286

1 Vucicevic from Chicago, Illinois, on behalf of

2 Dragan Kolundzija.

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

4 very much, Mr. Vucicevic.

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

6 I'm Vladimir Petrovic, attorney at law from Zagreb.

7 Together with Sanja Turlokov, I appear for Damir

8 Dosen. Thank you.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

10 very much, Mr. Petrovic.

11 I would like to ensure that the accused,

12 Mr. Kolundzija and Mr. Dosen, are following the

13 proceedings in this courtroom in a language they

14 understand.

15 [In English] No translation.

16 [Interpretation] Yes, that was the purpose of

17 my question. They are not getting the interpretation.

18 Can the accused, Mr. Kolundzija and

19 Mr. Dosen, hear me? Are you following the proceedings

20 in a language which you understand?

21 Mr. Dosen as well? Thank you.

22 This Status Conference, as you probably know,

23 will deal with three points that I'm going to announce

24 at the beginning, although I do regret the delay and so

25 we'll try to focus on the most important points,

Page 287

1 because this is a status conference which is

2 important.

3 The three points are the following:

4 Let me remind you briefly of the issues that

5 are pending before this Chamber and which will be the

6 subject of a hearing which was most likely announced to

7 you already and which will take place on the 23rd of

8 June at 11 o’clock, the 23rd of June at 11 o’clock, because the

9 Chamber is -- or at least two of the Judges are

10 involved in another case before 11 o’clock. After that, we

11 will discuss the issue of the opening of the trial,

12 this trial. The third point is any additional time

13 requested by the Prosecutor for the presentation of the

14 pre-trial brief and the list of witnesses. And after

15 that we will discuss the preparations for the trial, in

16 general terms, and the calendar which is needed for --

17 the calendar we've got to set in order to prepare for

18 this trial. Then, of course, any other questions at

19 the end.

20 The first point is simply a reminder that I'm

21 going to make for the Prosecutor and for the Defence in

22 respect of the pending questions which will be dealt

23 with during the hearing which will take place on the

24 23rd of June. What I have just said, moreover, in part

25 will depend on the request which was submitted to us by

Page 288

1 the Defence, that Mr. Vucicevic sent to us dated 6

2 June, and which is called: [In English] "The Defence

3 request for oral argument on pending motions before

4 Judge Trial Chamber III." [Interpretation] We received

5 that from Mr. Vucicevic, and we received it on the 6th

6 of June.

7 What points are going to be taken up on the

8 23rd of June?

9 First of all is the issue of the amended

10 attachment, attachment to the indictment, and the

11 parties will be heard during that hearing.

12 Let me remind you that the problem of the

13 Prosecutor's presentation of a single document -- a

14 consolidated, unique, or single indictment remains an

15 issue, and this is going to have to be done before the

16 trial begins, of course, so that we can have not the

17 two indictments which we have today, but a single

18 indictment which has been consolidated. This is a

19 reminder.

20 The second point which will be taken up on

21 the 23rd of June is the request for judicial notice,

22 and then the third part will be the request for the

23 admission of documents, about which there were written

24 submissions including the answer or the reply which I

25 authorised, and we can speak -- you can speak before

Page 289

1 the Chamber on the 23rd of June. And then there is the

2 motion for the accused Kolundzija [previous translation

3 continues]... [In English] counts and/or for

4 bifurcation of trial. [Interpretation] We received the

5 Prosecutor's response on the 5th of June, as was

6 planned, and these are the points which I'm reminding

7 you of and which will be on the agenda for the hearing

8 scheduled for the 23rd of June.

9 A final point which I would like to recall

10 here is the one which has to do with the request for

11 protective measures of the 12 witnesses, which was

12 presented to us by the Prosecutor on the 1st of June.

13 This request for protective measures relates to the

14 disclosure of non-redacted excerpts which were ordered

15 by the Trial Chamber on the 11th of May.

16 I would now like to turn to you,

17 Mr. Vucicevic and you Mr. Petrovic and ask you whether

18 you intend to respond in writing to this request within

19 the time period which runs until the 15th of June.

20 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I cannot

21 affirmatively answer that, I will -- because I am

22 planning to travel to Bosnia to do some investigation

23 and I was planning on 23rd to be -- actually 24th to be

24 flying back to Chicago so I will be away from my

25 office, but I will do my best to review the document.

Page 290

1 I didn't get a chance to review it fully.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Just a

3 moment, please. My question is whether you intend to

4 respond in writing to the Prosecutor's request or do

5 you not intend to respond in writing or don't you

6 know?

7 MR. VUCICEVIC: I haven't reviewed it, Your

8 Honour, yet in detail because -- and I can't give you

9 an answer because if I would -- for practicality's

10 sake, I would tell you that I would respond in writing

11 to preserve my right to respond in writing. And if I

12 decide that the response will not be necessary, I will

13 just, you know, submit you a notice. Thank you.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Mr. Petrovic.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

17 the Defence for the accused, Dosen, will respond in

18 writing within the time period that is envisaged that

19 is to say 15 days upon receipt of the brief. Thank

20 you.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So you have

22 been informed that you have until the 15th of June to

23 respond in writing because as you've just been

24 reminded, Mr. Petrovic, that's the deadline for the --

25 that runs -- it starts on the 1st of June. The

Page 291

1 decision will be issued by myself as the pre-trial

2 Judge after the 15th of June.

3 As regards that hearing on the 23rd of June,

4 I'm turning to the Prosecutor as well as the Defence.

5 Do you have any questions you'd like to ask so that I

6 could move to the second point on the agenda for this

7 Status Conference?

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: No, Your Honour I don't have

9 any questions.

10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

11 Mr. Vucicevic.

12 Ms. Hollis.

13 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour regarding the

14 hearing that you just announced, we don't anticipate

15 any difficulties with that date and time.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

17 the Dosen Defence has no particular questions. Thank

18 you.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 As regards the second point that we've got to take up

21 today during this Status Conference is the date for

22 the start of the trial.

23 The Chamber has, of course, paid a great deal

24 of attention to this question and has kept in mind that

25 the trial must be a fair one and take place as quickly

Page 292

1 as possible as provided for in the Statute. Depending

2 on, of course, the very busy schedule of the Chamber

3 and of our other commitments.

4 So we agreed that one of the possible dates

5 could be the 6th of November this year. This is one of

6 the possible dates for the start of the trial, this

7 trial. As I say it could be the 6th of November 2000.

8 I'm saying it could be, might be, in order to show that

9 we are flexible because the definitive date will be

10 decided, of course, depending on what the Chamber

11 itself will decide on the 23rd of June after the

12 hearing in respect to the amended attachment to the

13 indictment.

14 It's been understood that this could have an

15 impact on the time periods depending on the decision

16 that will be taken by that Trial Chamber in its

17 entirety, but what we are projecting, what we've got in

18 mind, is the opening of the trial on the 6th of

19 November 2000, that is, as I say, this year.

20 As regards that point, in any case, we're

21 going to speak about that as we speak about the

22 possible consequences of choosing that date.

23 As regards that specific point, would you

24 like to make any comments? The Prosecution, Ms.

25 Hollis, or the Defence?

Page 293

1 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution

2 would not be in a position to make any informed

3 comments about that date at this time.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

5 very much. Mr. Vucicevic.

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, today is June

7 7th and it has been exactly a year that my client has

8 been arrested and brought before this Tribunal.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

10 Mr. Vucicevic, I'm going to stop you right there. I'm

11 not asking you now to take up the problems which have

12 already taken up having to do with time periods. We'll

13 get to that in a moment. But for now, as of this point

14 as regards the 6th of November, does that in and of

15 itself cause any problems to you?

16 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, we will be ready

17 to go on trial by November 6th. As a matter of fact,

18 Your Honour, the Defence of Dragan Kolundzija is ready

19 to proceed as far as tomorrow at 9 a.m..

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

22 the Defence of Damir Dosen will be ready on the 6th of

23 November for the beginning of the trial. Thank you.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

25 Mr. Petrovic.

Page 294

1 Let me now come to the third point which I

2 have just mentioned and which has to do with the

3 problem raised in a motion from the Prosecutor

4 regarding the extension of the time limit for reviewing

5 the pre-trial brief and the presentation of witnesses,

6 the list of witnesses.

7 Of course this is a motion which I have in

8 front of me which was sent to us by the Prosecutor on

9 the 24th of May 2000 and the name of that motion is:

10 [In English] "Prosecution motion for extension of time

11 to comply with the Trial Chamber order of 11 May 2000."

12 [Interpretation]. This extension of the time that is

13 touched on by the Prosecutor, the list of witnesses

14 that is one thing, and the second is the review of the

15 pre-trial brief.

16 As regards the list of witnesses, I'll move

17 afterwards to the arguments put forward by the

18 Prosecutor for the extension of the time period. I'll

19 come back to that in just a moment.

20 As regards the list of witnesses, we have

21 Rule 65 ter (E)(iv) which is very clear which says that the

22 list of witnesses of the, that the Prosecutor plans to

23 call, I'm referring to Rule 65 ter (E)(iv), which deals with

24 the admission of the -- the method of the pre-trial

25 Judge is presented in the Rules as follows:

Page 295

1 "It must include the name or pseudonym of

2 each witness; a summary of facts on which each witness

3 will testify; the points in the indictment as to which

4 each witness will testify including specific references

5 to counts and relevant paragraphs in the indictment,

6 and the estimated length of time required for each

7 witness." This is how the list of witnesses is

8 presented in the rules.

9 On the 11th of April this year, the

10 Prosecutor -- well, Ms. Hollis, you sent us a list

11 which has nothing to do with what I've just said and

12 the name of that list is [In English] "Prosecution

13 Witness List" [interpretation] which is merely a

14 listing of potential witnesses. Obviously we were

15 expecting what is provided for in the Rules.

16 Let me remind that you -- I have issued you

17 an order on the 24th of March and I set a deadline of

18 28 April and in fact, for which you explained nothing

19 at all as to why you didn't respect it.

20 I then issued an order, on my own

21 initiative, on the 11th of May in which I set a time

22 period or a deadline as the 1st of June. When you say

23 that the Defence did not comply with the deadlines, and

24 that's a normal thing you should, of course, respect

25 them yourself.

Page 296

1 Everybody, therefore, must respect the

2 deadlines under the supervision and the authority of

3 the pre-trial Judge. Therefore, I've set a new

4 deadline for the 1st of June, that same deadline which

5 was set for you for presenting a pre-trial -- a revised

6 pre-trial brief.

7 It was then that you sent to me your request

8 for an extension of the deadline and that was on the

9 11th of May.

10 The arguments which you put forward according

11 to which -- your team is busy with the Kvocka case and

12 one of your legal officers is not available and these

13 are -- at the very least surprising reasons all the

14 more so because in the Kvocka case, we received a list

15 of witnesses as detailed and precise as could be

16 expected, and which completely matches the Rule.

17 I can speak about that because I was

18 responsible for the pre-trial management in Kvocka

19 before I moved to another case which absolutely matches what

20 is indicated in the Rule and which is intended to or designed

21 to help the Chamber. And I believe that you are asking for an

22 extension of the deadline until the 30th of September

23 2000. It's 30th of September. That is July, August,

24 September that you're asking for, a three-month

25 extension which is also very surprising, you must

Page 297

1 agree.

2 The Kolundzija and Dosen cases are being led

3 by the same team, and including the Kvocka case, as I

4 just said, you could have taken some inspiration from

5 the list that was prepared for the Kvocka case. As

6 regards the list of witnesses, that's what I have to

7 say. I'll get back to the deadline once I've spoken

8 about the pre-trial brief.

9 What I would like to know from you, Ms.

10 Hollis, or from your team, is whether you have

11 understood what's expected from you as regards the fact

12 that you must respect the Rule which I've just

13 mentioned, Rule 65 ter (E)(iv).

14 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your

15 Honour, regarding your initial order that the list of

16 witnesses be provided, the Prosecution must state that

17 it did not understand that to be the Rule 65 ter (E)(iv)

18 list of witnesses. The Prosecution's understanding was

19 that a list of witnesses which was initially ordered

20 was the list of witnesses who would either provide

21 redacted or unredacted statements at that time.

22 Therefore, the Prosecution submitted the list which it

23 submitted.

24 We certainly do understand at this point what

25 it is you are requiring of us, what you had attempted

Page 298

1 to communicate to us although we did not understand

2 it. And we do understand the requirements of the rule

3 itself. We also understand the great amount of work

4 that went into the Kvocka summary that was made

5 involving several peoples' efforts over a considerable

6 period of time. So we are very appreciative of the

7 need to be very comprehensive and detailed in those

8 summaries and we certainly do understand the

9 requirements of the Rule.

10 I find myself again apologising to this

11 Chamber for a failure to comply with what has been

12 ordered by the Chamber.

13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

14 Ms. Hollis.

15 Let me now move to the second aspect of this

16 extension, which has to do with the pre-trial brief,

17 the revised pre-trial brief. Here too, of course, we

18 are only applying the Rules, and the Rules state, in

19 Rule 65 ter (E)(i), that the Prosecutor must file within the

20 deadline set by the appropriate [inaudible] which gives

21 out the points of law and fact, which include a written

22 presentation having to do with the nature of this

23 case. [In English] Setting out the nature of her case.

24 [Interpretation] Why is this? That is

25 because when we have indictments which only list the

Page 299

1 charges which you plan to bring against the accused, I

2 think we're going to get this quickly, a list of the

3 witnesses with a summary of the points on which they

4 are going to testify, and of course we'll see the

5 relationship between those points in the testimony and

6 the charges.

7 The pre-trial brief comes at a point, in

8 order to support the case, to explain what the

9 relationship is between those materials, that is, in

10 the evidence which you're able to collect and which

11 allow you to support your case; that is, to support the

12 charges which appear in the indictment. This is

13 something which is not theoretical, but rather which

14 has a practical effect, because it's going to allow us

15 to know what the strategy is going to be, what are the

16 charges you are bringing against the accused, and how

17 you intend to argue those charges. That is the

18 pre-trial brief which will allow us to prepare for the

19 opening of the case. It's not a theoretical

20 operation.

21 What is it you've sent to us? You've sent to

22 us -- I've got it in front of me and I've read it in

23 its entirety -- you sent to us a pre-trial brief which

24 is 90 pages long and in which almost everything is

25 theoretical.

Page 300

1 I unfortunately must tell you that from 1 to

2 20, there's an analysis of the general situation of the

3 camps and of what happened in the camps in question,

4 Keraterm, et cetera, and that is in the other case as

5 well. And then from pages 20 almost to page 62, we

6 have part of -- well, a part which deals with the

7 various charges and a theoretical analysis of the

8 various Articles in the Statute -- 3, 5, et cetera --

9 on the violation of the laws and customs of war, on the

10 crimes against humanity, on the Tribunal's case law in

11 general on that subject. And then we have a long

12 development on Article 7(1) and 7(3), which deal with

13 the responsibility. And what's left that's concrete?

14 Very little, except perhaps starting at page 65, a few

15 pages which deal with the common purpose, where you

16 provided some concrete elements dealing with the

17 specific case.

18 Therefore, I unfortunately must say to you,

19 because you're saying that you didn't understand what

20 it was that we expected from you, I'm trying to help

21 you to understand what it is that we expect. You say,

22 "Yes, but in this Tribunal, things are always done

23 that way." On this point too, that's not quite true,

24 because -- perhaps in the cases in which you were

25 working, but there are other cases; referring to the

Page 301

1 pre-trial brief in the Kunarac case, for instance,

2 which I have here right in front of me.

3 And you will see that whenever there are

4 general questions which arise in the Kunarac --

5 paragraph 60, for example, the general problem is said

6 and it's put forth, and it says "in the instant case,"

7 and then it says that the accused was this and that and

8 they were going to this and that, whether dates and

9 giving the facts, et cetera, and the witnesses who are

10 going to come in order to prove. And then afterwards,

11 it says, "We're going to say the evidence will

12 demonstrate ...", and then the evidence is specifically

13 mentioned, the evidence which is going to be used in

14 support of this or that situation.

15 That's how I would like you to work. That's

16 what I expect from you.

17 In the Kunarac case, you also see that

18 there's paragraph 130, where it says: "The evidence

19 will establish ...", et cetera.

20 In other words, each time we are brought back

21 to the specific case, starting with the testimony and

22 the evidence which the Prosecution has available to

23 it.

24 I could also refer you to a pre-trial brief

25 from a case which I am more familiar with than others,

Page 302

1 that is, the Kordic case, the pre-trial brief dated 25

2 March 1999, and where you could also see there's a

3 connection made between the purely general aspects,

4 which recall the Tribunal's case law. And in

5 parenthesis, I could tell you that we don't need you to

6 recall the Tribunal's case law to us because we're

7 familiar with it. You can simply put in references,

8 because we are very familiar with all of that. I could

9 even say that is our profession. We are professional

10 Judges, and therefore we are familiar with the

11 Tribunal's case law, and international case law in more

12 general terms.

13 But what we expect from you is for you to

14 tell us how you're going to prove the guilt of the

15 accused who are here. How, and using what method. Of

16 course, you're going to do it during the trial, but

17 putting forward your case, that's what it is,

18 explaining what you're going to do and how you're going

19 to do it. And then we're going to ask the Defence to

20 tell us how it's going to present its defence, and that

21 is part of the Defence pre-trial brief, which presents

22 its case, and at that point we can start the trial

23 under absolutely equitable conditions.

24 We understand, of course, that the documents

25 that we expect from you, Ms. Hollis, are additional

Page 303

1 ones. The witness summaries, which are specific, these

2 are materials which compliment and which also allow you

3 to draft your pre-trial draft. Both of these documents

4 are extremely important documents which must specify

5 the factual and legal questions having to do with this

6 specific case.

7 I hope that I've been clear, because you

8 asked me to be clear. Have I been specific enough in

9 respect of what I was just saying, because you tell me

10 that you didn't really understand what it was that I

11 was asking you, and now I would like to know from you

12 whether you understood what it is that I want.

13 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour, thank you very

14 much. We certainly have understood the comments that

15 you have made and what it is you want in the pre-trial

16 brief.

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

18 very much, Ms. Hollis. I know your position, and I

19 also know the position of the Defence.

20 Now we've got to discuss the issue of time

21 periods.

22 You told us that you were overworked at the

23 moment, that you have problems in respect of the

24 deadline, and you said that you didn't understand

25 things. But now things have been cleared up, and you

Page 304

1 do understand that we cannot wait until the 30th of

2 September. That just wouldn't be serious. At a point

3 when, from all sides, as you know, people are saying

4 that this Tribunal has to accelerate its procedures.

5 It's got to try people within normal time periods, and

6 we cannot wait until the 30th of September.

7 I am asking you what would be the possible

8 deadline that you would need for the presentation of

9 these two documents, and what I suggest to you, in

10 respect of the possible date for the trial's opening,

11 in light of the prospects, or the prospects that I've

12 just sketched out for you here, I was going to suggest

13 to you mid-July, that is, the 14th of July. I would

14 like to have your opinion on that, if you would be so

15 kind.

16 Ms. Hollis.

17 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I don't believe

18 that the Prosecution can meet that deadline. And when

19 we asked for the 30th of September, we understood how

20 long a time that was, but we asked for it because we

21 believe that is the time it takes. Certainly, whatever

22 time you set for us, we will make a great effort to

23 meet it, but I could not assure this Chamber that we

24 could meet that deadline. And I'm being very candid at

25 the risk of your displeasure, Your Honour, but that is

Page 305

1 my response.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] All right.

3 Do you have another proposal, aside from the 30th of

4 September, in light of the Defence position of which

5 you have been informed? You have been informed,

6 haven't you, of the Defence position?

7 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour, we certainly

8 understand the Defence position. And, Your Honour, I

9 think the only position we could give you, because the

10 30th of September was not a bargaining date, it was a

11 date we felt we needed, so the only position I can give

12 you is if Your Honour would give the Prosecution as

13 much time as you could possibly give us. Then we will

14 do everything that we can to meet the deadline.

15 But the reasons I set forth for the delay are

16 very serious reasons for us, and unfortunately, no

17 matter how dedicated you are, there's only so much you

18 can do within a given period of time. So I think we

19 would have to leave it in the Chamber's hands, and

20 certainly we'll do our mightiest to comply with

21 whatever order you give us.

22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The proposal

23 which I'm going to make in order to take into account

24 both the Defence's concerns and the Prosecutor's, the

25 proposal that I am going to make is that the pre-trial

Page 306

1 brief, the revised one, and the list of witnesses, in

2 compliance with Rule 65 ter, must be filed by the 28th

3 of July, that is, before recess, before the legal

4 recess which is scheduled for the month of August.

5 That's the proposal which I'm making.

6 Would you like to speak, Mr. Vucicevic?

7 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 I sympathise with the problems that the

9 Office of the Prosecutor has in addressing the

10 difficulties in answering to the Court's orders.

11 However, Your Honour, I am fully aware that not a

12 single party to these proceedings will ever be 100

13 per cent ready.

14 I understand the diligence and expectation

15 that Ms. Hollis has of herself and her own team, but

16 the higher expectation we put, sometimes we can never

17 reach them. We have to work in terms of

18 practicalities, and indeed the Statute and the Rules do

19 not provide any time for the Prosecution to get ready.

20 This is not, I believe, the matter of

21 equality of arms, because a year ago when my client was

22 arrested, the Prosecution should have been ready to try

23 the case.

24 I do thank you for being candid in

25 understanding that the judicial schedule is such that

Page 307

1 this case cannot be taken up before November 6th.

2 However, Your Honour, I would like you to take these

3 two dates under advisement, depending on the Trial

4 Chamber's ruling on the 23rd of June based on our

5 motions for bifurcated trial, because if the Trial

6 Chamber accepts -- grants that motion, the amount of

7 work that Ms. Hollis and her team will have to do will

8 be, indeed, bifurcated and may be cut by four times

9 than it would be necessary, and depending -- maybe

10 perhaps if I could suggest that they could get a

11 shorter schedule to present the statement of the

12 witnesses and then a little bit longer date to present

13 a trial brief. Therefore, they would be a lot more

14 accommodating to you pending our motion for a

15 bifurcated trial.

16 Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] You're

18 speaking about the motion having to do with separation.

19 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 I hold to what I've already said. Certain adaptations

22 are possible, of course, depending on what the Chamber

23 decides on the 23rd of June, but I would like to hold to

24 my decision for the time being, which will be put into

25 a scheduling order and will be issued after this Status

Page 308

1 Conference, which is to ask the Prosecutor, as a

2 deadline, to provide to the Chamber, to the Pre-Trial

3 Judge, the list of witnesses in accordance with Rule 65

4 ter as I have recalled, and the revised pre-trial brief

5 for the 28th of July, which will allow us, of course,

6 to review the document before the court recess.

7 Mr. Vucicevic, in light of this decision of

8 the 28th of July, I know that you submitted a motion,

9 an alternative one in which you say that should that

10 date of the 30th of September be granted, you're asking

11 for provisional release of your client, that is,

12 Mr. Kolundzija. In light of the new date, that is, the

13 28th of July, are you going to maintain that request or

14 are you going to withdraw it?

15 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I would like to

16 withdraw that, and I do thank you for being so

17 considerate to our concerns. Thank you.

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

19 very much, Mr. Vucicevic. The request for provisional

20 release has now been withdrawn by Mr. Vucicevic.

21 The last point -- the last substantive point

22 that I would like to deal with with you in this Status

23 Conference has to do with the question of the other

24 time limits which we need in order to prepare the trial

25 and to start the trial around the 6th of November.

Page 309

1 First of all, there is a whole set of

2 documents which must be presented, according to Rule 65

3 ter (E), which are connected to discussions between the

4 parties.

5 I received, before coming to this conference,

6 to this hearing, I received from you a document which

7 is called [In English] "Regarding Admissions by Parties

8 and Points of Agreement and Disagreements on Matters of

9 Fact and Law," [Interpretation] which is dated 7 June

10 and which follows up on a meeting that I asked for.

11 I asked for this in an order which was not

12 completely respected. It was on the 31st of March. I

13 asked you for six weeks, and you only met on the 5th of

14 June, without having asked for any extension of the

15 time period. I'm just saying this in passing.

16 You met on the 5th of June, as planned, and

17 you sent to us a document which mentions the points of

18 agreement and disagreement between you. That is the

19 points which are in dispute -- excuse me, rather on

20 facts of law and fact.

21 It also says in Rule 65 ter (E) that there

22 must be a pre-trial brief addressing the factual and

23 legal issues, a statement of contested matters of fact

24 and law, and a list of exhibits the Prosecutor intends

25 to offer, stating where possible where the Defence has

Page 310

1 any objection to its authenticity. That is, the

2 presentation of the list by the Prosecutor and any

3 possible objection as to the authenticity by the

4 Defence.

5 The list of exhibits was submitted on the

6 28th of April.

7 Do the parties have any comments in respect

8 of their progress and -- about the meeting which you

9 had on the 5th of June.

10 Ms. Hollis.

11 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your

12 Honour, we did meet on the 5th of June. The Defence

13 had asked for extensions for various filings and had

14 been involved in investigations, so we met on the 5th

15 of June. We discussed a variety of issues, including

16 all of the motions that are outstanding before the

17 Chamber. We also discussed the elements that are set

18 forth in the Prosecution's pre-trial brief, and we

19 determined at that meeting that there are no admissions

20 at this point. And at that meeting, after discussions,

21 we were only able to come to agreement on the points

22 that have been listed in the report.

23 The Defence for both accused have agreed to

24 various of the adjudicated facts, and you have been

25 provided with a document showing the facts which each

Page 311

1 accused has agreed to.

2 Aside from that agreement, Your Honour, the

3 only other agreement that we reached was an agreement

4 involving the time period for the disclosure to the

5 Defence of the names of protected witnesses. And as

6 noted in the report, Defence counsel for accused

7 Kolundzija explained the reasons why he wished to have

8 those names 60 days before the trial. After hearing

9 those reasons, the Prosecutor agreed that that would be

10 a reasonable period of time, and subject to the

11 pre-trial Judge's approval or the Trial Chamber's

12 approval, if necessary, we would be prepared to provide

13 those names to both counsel 60 days before the

14 commencement of trial.

15 But aside from those agreements, no other

16 agreements were reached on any matters of fact or any

17 matter of law. Therefore, as of today, every other

18 issue remains in dispute.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

20 Ms. Hollis.

21 Would the Defence like to make any comment

22 about the meeting which was held on the 5th of June?

23 Mr. Vucicevic.

24 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, the meeting was

25 very cordial and very businesslike, and I am looking

Page 312

1 forward to more meetings of this kind if we are going

2 to solve any outstanding issues that we can have some

3 common ground on. I fully concur with the statements

4 that Ms. Hollis has made to you.

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

6 should like to say that I agree with what my learned

7 friends have just said and to say that the accused

8 Dosen's Defence has accepted what was said today. But

9 whether -- in case of the disclosure of the material,

10 it will also depend on the pre-trial brief of the

11 Prosecution, which we are expecting with impatience.

12 We hope that we shall be able to make bigger progress

13 and there will be many more things that we will be able

14 to agree about.

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

16 Mr. Petrovic. At least in so far as you are concerned,

17 I do want to encourage you to try as many points of

18 convergence as possible in order to avoid any further

19 delays in the conduct of the trial.

20 I therefore take notice for the protected

21 witnesses, the names will be communicated 60 days

22 beforehand. As for the judicial notice, I also take

23 note of the list upon which you have reached the

24 agreement. As regards the motions, there are still

25 those that have to do with the admission of documents.

Page 313

1 Do you want to present any additional

2 comments having to do with admission of documents

3 before the 23rd of June, before the conference of the

4 23rd of June?

5 Ms. Hollis.

6 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour, we don't.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 What about the Defence? No? Well, at any rate, you

9 will have the possibility to raise these points at the

10 meeting of the 23rd of June, at the conference at the

11 23rd of June, as you have just said.

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Microphone not activated]

13 ... no arguments then, thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] All right

15 then on those points it will be the 23rd of June.

16 Another point which is the consequence of

17 what has just been said, I would like to set also a

18 time, a deadline for the filing of the Defence

19 pre-trial brief, and I was thinking about the middle of

20 September. I would like to know whether the Defence

21 could present its pre-trial brief as provided for in

22 the Rules now.

23 Would the Defence be in a position to present

24 its brief? It could be the 11th of September but it

25 could also be the end of that week, that is the 14th of

Page 314

1 September. I'd like to know whether the Defence, in

2 light of the fact that the Prosecution is going to file

3 its brief on the 28th of July, could the Defence file

4 its brief in the middle of September?

5 Mr. Vucicevic.

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, if I could

7 kindly ask you if you can give us a deadline the first

8 week in October because I am planning to take another

9 investigative trip in August, and I would like to take

10 some time before that for vacation.

11 Since I am the only working on the case and

12 it's been a year, very arduous work, and still -- I

13 believe we will have a full month for -- to have a

14 Pre-Trial Conference so if you could set a deadline the

15 first week, I would appreciate it because I am thinking

16 of coming back in the second week of September, coming

17 back from Bosnia.

18 So then it would give me very little office

19 time to comply with that, Your Honour. But whatever

20 you say, Your Honour, I will change my schedule and I

21 will try to accommodate your orders. Thank you.

22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I had

23 planned to set the date for the first half -- that is

24 around the 11th of October. I'm speaking about the

25 date for the pre-trial conference. Excuse me,

Page 315

1 Mr. Petrovic, did you want to say something?

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

3 do apologise. All I wanted to say is that Mr. Dosen's

4 Defence can prepare the pre-trial brief by the date

5 that you suggested, that is, the 14th of September is,

6 at this point in time, quite acceptable to us. Thank

7 you.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 In order to accommodate both Defence counsel, could we

10 set the date for the 30th of September?

11 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Then we're

13 going to set the date for the filing of the Defence

14 pre-trial brief at the 30th of September.

15 At that point, and of course these are dates

16 which will be -- which will be set. But as I've

17 already told you, they are subject to any decision the

18 Trial Chamber might take during the meeting of the 23rd

19 of June which might change those dates, depending on

20 what the decision of the Trial Chamber is going to

21 be as regards the attached indictment.

22 At that point, the Pre-Trial Conference could

23 take place on the 11th of October. As regards

24 preparing for the trial, I plan to organise a Status

25 Conference in order to see the status of all the

Page 316

1 preparations and that will be around the middle of

2 September and the suggested date is September 13th.

3 That would be the date for the next Status Conference

4 whose purpose is to see where things stand in respect

5 of the status.

6 A final question, Ms. Hollis, which you,

7 yourself, mentioned, I believe, is to ask you where you

8 stand in respect of deposition proceedings. If I

9 remember correctly, you told the Chamber that there was

10 the possibility that some of the witnesses would be

11 common ones with the Kvocka case, and that we could use

12 deposition evidence.

13 Do you have anything else that you want to

14 tell us about that?

15 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour. We still have

16 the same, I believe it's in the form of a motion that

17 is outstanding regarding ways to either have concurrent

18 presentation of the same evidence or perhaps to have

19 that evidence be introduced in this trial and we

20 haven't changed our position on that.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 All right. I'd like you to go into more depth, in that

23 as far as that question is concerned, if you have any

24 concrete proposals that you want to make to us which

25 would allow us to move the trial forward in the

Page 317

1 interests of justice, those suggestions would be most

2 welcome.

3 I think that I have covered all the questions

4 I wanted to speak about with you today during this

5 Status Conference.

6 Now, if you have any other questions you'd

7 like to raise that I didn't think about, of course this

8 is the time to do so.

9 MS. HOLLIS: The Prosecution has nothing,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

12 Ms. Hollis.

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: Kolundzija's Defence has no

14 questions, Your Honour.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

16 Honour, nothing in particular at the moment. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 In the case if there are any questions you can think

20 about, you don't have to worry, because on the 23rd of

21 June, that is soon, you will have an opportunity to ask

22 them in front of the full Chamber.

23 I would like in accordance with Rule 65

24 bis (A)(ii) to ask about the mental and physical condition

25 of the accused.

Page 318

1 Mr. Kolundzija and Mr. Dosen, it's being

2 understood that the accused of course can -- I'm sorry

3 I have to speak a moment with the senior trial

4 attorney.

5 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] We

7 understand that if the accused want to say anything in

8 closed session to the Chamber, since this is a public

9 session, all they have to do is to tell us and we'll

10 move into a closed session and then there will be

11 discussions in private.

12 Let me remind you also that according to the

13 Rules, if the accused have any problems they must first

14 speak to the commander and then to speak to the

15 Registry, but they can speak directly with the Trial

16 Chamber, and this is an occasion or an opportunity

17 which is provided for in this status conference, that's either

18 through yourselves or through your counsel, if you have

19 anything to say about the -- your mental or physical

20 condition, we are of course prepared to hear them.

21 This has to do with the detention conditions.

22 Mr. Dosen.

23 THE ACCUSED DOSEN: [Interpretation] Your

24 Honours, no. I have no complaints except that I've

25 never been locked up before so I do not know what a

Page 319

1 prison is like, but for the time being, everything is

2 all right. I have no particular complaints.

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 No, we were not inviting criticisms. It was simply if

5 you felt any problems regarding your detention. I

6 gather that you do not have any particular problems at

7 the moment.

8 Mr. Kolundzija, how about you?

9 THE ACCUSED KOLUNDZIJA: [Interpretation]

10 Everything is in perfect order.

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well,

12 thank you, so let me remind you that after this, the

13 result of the Status Conference, there will be an order

14 that will be indicated to you with the time limits

15 which have been set up with you in your presence and I

16 should equally like to remind you that on the 23rd of

17 June, depending on the agenda which I have communicated

18 to you, there will again be a hearing with the Chamber

19 sitting in full. This session is adjourned, thank

20 you.

21 -- Whereupon the Status Conference

22 adjourned at 6.10 p.m.