Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1465

1 Monday, 2 April 2001

2 [The accused entered court]

3 [Open session]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before we call in the witness, there are a number

6 of matters to be raised. I understand that the Prosecutor has some

7 matters to raise and the Chamber has two matters that it also wishes to

8 raise. So who goes first? I think we will go first. I will not play the

9 game of seeing who asks for an adjournment.

10 You recall that I raised with the parties at the last session the

11 importance to the proper functioning of the Chamber of having documents

12 translated in both working languages. We have been getting the documents

13 only in English, the exhibits. There is of course a requirement that

14 exhibits be produced in the two working languages. The Chamber cannot

15 pretend to be unaware of the difficulties that parties experience in

16 getting documents from the translation unit in a timely manner, but we

17 have to be pragmatic. The Chamber feels that an approach that should be

18 considered will be to have the Prosecutor identify a core bundle of

19 exhibits and have those exhibits translated. I'm aware that we have

20 preadmitted I think some three bundles with over 300 exhibits. What we

21 want the Prosecutor to do is to identify a core set of exhibits from that

22 bundle and see to it that those documents, those exhibits, are translated

23 in a timely manner. This is a matter of the utmost importance to the

24 effective functioning of the Chamber.

25 The other matter that I wanted to raise is that the Chamber has

Page 1466

1 been reviewing the progress of the case. While we cannot say that parties

2 have been working unproductively, we observe that after two weeks, we are

3 only on the sixth witness. The Chamber will, with the cooperation of the

4 interpreters, sit late this week, until 5.00, and on Friday, we will start

5 at 9.00 in the morning.

6 The witnesses testified to a number of different incidents and so

7 the examination-in-chief is relatively long and the cross-examination

8 involves three accused persons. So although we have a relatively short

9 witness list, relative in terms of the Tribunal's experience, we will find

10 that we will have to be inventive and creative and be willing to work

11 longer hours if we are to meet our timetable.

12 Mr. Prosecutor, what do you have to say in relation to these

13 matters? First you and then the other counsel, in so far as they are

14 affected.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I might say that the

16 second issue raised by the court is exactly the first issue that the

17 Prosecution wanted to draw to the court's attention as well. And that is

18 that our concern is that although the time that was scheduled for the

19 Prosecution case in this matter seemed very reasonable when it was first

20 given, after the first two weeks, when we had hoped to have finished our

21 14th witness, we now are still in the middle of our sixth. We realise

22 that matters are not progressing as quickly as they originally had,

23 perhaps optimistically, been predicted to proceed.

24 I might say that by our calculation, and before today's new

25 schedule came in, we had 32.5 days left and there are a number of

Page 1467

1 witnesses, and we are going to run out of time with 16 witnesses left to

2 go if we continue on our present schedule. Having said that, we have done

3 an analysis very briefly of the first six witnesses -- five witnesses that

4 were completed, and the reason I'm raising this now is it seems that at

5 least for the last three witnesses, there appears to be somewhat of an

6 absence of coordination by Defence counsel of their cross-examination.

7 They are taking considerably more time than are the Prosecution, and the

8 Prosecution have to lead all of the evidence. Hopefully the accused's

9 counsel will be able to focus on that part of the evidence that relates to

10 their clients. We realise that there are going to be areas of background

11 which would relate to all of them, but hopefully there could be some

12 coordination of the cross whereby not each counsel covers each topic again

13 and again and again from the beginning.

14 For example, with Witness C, the Prosecution took 2 hours and 28

15 minutes, and by our calculation the total Defence time was 3 hours and 54

16 minutes. For Witness D, the Prosecution took 2 hours and 12 minutes and

17 the Defence collectively took 4 hours and 18 minutes. With Witness E, the

18 Prosecution took 1 hour and 43 minutes, and collectively the Defence took

19 3 hours and 4 minutes.

20 Now, I realise that we're not here to try to curb Defence. They

21 have legitimate areas for cross-examination and it's in the Court's hands

22 in terms of the amount of latitude that is given, but my concern is simply

23 that if we continue at this pace without coordination by the Defence of

24 their cross-examination, we're going to be hearing these kinds of

25 statistics continue, and we're simply going to run out of time. That is a

Page 1468

1 concern.

2 The second thing, still related to time, is that I recall Your

3 Honour asking us to provide witness summaries, and it's taken a great deal

4 of time and effort for us to produce those, including the sourcing where

5 each allegation comes from, but the payoff is supposed to be that the

6 Defence would be able to indicate to us which areas they would allow us to

7 lead, and we would hopefully be able to utilise the time allotted to us in

8 a more effective manner. Unfortunately, we have not received consistent

9 indication from all three counsel for each witness. One of the counsel

10 has been extremely helpful in indicating to us what paragraphs we can lead

11 on, but until you have consensus from all three, we've got a problem with

12 that.

13 So I suppose what I'm saying is if these summaries are indeed

14 going to be helpful in order to save time, hopefully Defence counsel will

15 be able to give us an indication in advance as to which paragraphs they

16 don't object to as leading from so we can get through the area quicker.

17 Otherwise, I don't know how helpful these summaries are other than to

18 impose yet further work on the Prosecution in order to prepare them and

19 all it does is assist the Defence in sourcing our material, but it there's

20 no economy, unless, of course, it's helpful for the Court, in which case

21 that's a useful function in itself, over and above the time-saving

22 factors.

23 Those are the issues I wanted to deal with with respect to the

24 second point raised and a vital matter to us, because as of the 1st of

25 June, all this time counts against us and we want to make sure that our

Page 1469

1 case is in by then.

2 The second issue about translations, we recognise that due to

3 unforeseen circumstances, these documents now have to be translated into

4 all three languages. The difficulty, as I understand it, is that the

5 French translation department have a finite number of people who have a

6 huge backlog and that it takes a lot of work for them to translate all the

7 documents. We have no control. It's not an OTP function. It is our

8 responsibility to see that these exhibits are provided to the Court in all

9 three languages, but it's not, unfortunately, something over which we have

10 control in the sense that the translation department, as I understand it,

11 does not fall under the OTP.

12 Having said that, Your Honours, we will certainly do our best to

13 identify those core documents and try to get them to translation on a

14 priority basis. Other than do that, I don't know what I can do. I cannot

15 give an undertaking that we have any control over the timely translation.

16 All we can do is comply with your request and hopefully those documents

17 will be available to the Court in a timely fashion.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. But on the last issue first, the

19 Chamber's idea was that you have three bundles with about 350 documents.

20 If you are to identify to the Translation Unit a core set of, say, a

21 hundred, then that's one-third. Of course, the obligation is to have all

22 of them translated, but we're being pragmatic and we want the Court to

23 function as effectively as possible. So that's what the Chamber would

24 like to see you have done, and to the extent that the Chamber is able, the

25 Chamber will bring its authority to bear on this issue to see that these

Page 1470

1 documents are translated.

2 As for the witness summaries, I'll hear from Defence counsel very,

3 very briefly. The summaries are facilitative and the Chamber finds them

4 very useful. One virtue of the summaries is that, as you say, they allow

5 Defence counsel to identify those paragraphs in respect of which the

6 Prosecutor would be able to lead, and the Chamber wishes to reiterate that

7 counsel should pay due regard to this matter, read the summaries before,

8 and identify those areas in respect of which leading is not a problem.

9 I think you raised an excellent point with regard to the need for

10 more coordination in the cross-examination. The Chamber has observed that

11 some of it is repetitive. I'm aware that each counsel represents an

12 individual accused, but some coordination can and should take place,

13 and the Chamber will insist on that as a time-saving device.

14 Just very briefly, Mr. Greaves, do you have anything to say on

15 these matters?

16 MR. GREAVES: As I go first in the cross-examination, it's very

17 difficult for me to be accused of repetitiveness, I hope. As far as

18 leading from the summaries is concerned, I have been providing my learned

19 friends with a short list of those matters which may be led on, and will

20 continue to do so as far as possible.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully accept the

23 criticism, and we shall indeed try to meet together and see how we can cut

24 it shorter. But I do hope that you have in mind that three accused are

25 all faced with completely different situations. The interpretation of

Page 1471

1 some events varies from one accused to the other, from one client to the

2 other, and this is perhaps the reason for the somewhat prolonged time.

3 But we shall nevertheless try to optimise it and to reduce the time needed

4 to the least -- to the shortest possible. But I do not think one can

5 simply add up the time devoted by counsel to cross-examination is the

6 right way to proceed. What the Defence counsel can do is to try to agree

7 on matters which are beyond dispute and where there is no need to go

8 cross-examination for every individual client. Otherwise there are very

9 many individual matters. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Vucicevic?

11 MR. VUCICEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I cannot make such a

12 bald statement as my learned counsel to the right, Mr. Greaves. Of

13 course, there was some repetition from this position but I will do my best

14 not ever to happen in the future. We will coordinate. However, your

15 point is extremely astute one, but I think you know equity of arms may be

16 considered on this because when we really do not object -- would not

17 object to the Prosecutor to lead if we could lead on cross, and the

18 witness would give all his answers while the Prosecutor leads, so that

19 because it's -- as I was observing, I didn't think this case was going to

20 come up, but perhaps I will go and review those records, and it seems to

21 me that sometimes the witness' answer of course take more than counsel's

22 questioning. So maybe we ought to address that point, too. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. Will you bring the witness in?

24 MR. RYNEVELD: If I might just respond one moment. I do notice

25 that the cross-examination style does attempt to actually -- it's like

Page 1472

1 leading -- not leading a witness but extracting evidence in chief.

2 Defence counsel in cross are permitted to put suggestions to a witness in

3 a leading fashion, my understanding of cross-examination, and that might

4 actually speed up the procedure rather than emulate the Prosecution style

5 of, "And then what happened?" Because we are not allowed to lead. They

6 are.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Of course, yes. The Defence is of course

8 permitted. They have an obligation to put their case.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: While we are waiting for the witness to be brought

10 in, might I also ask a clarification? You will recall, Your Honour, that

11 two weeks ago you indicated to us that the you want us, for the transcript

12 witnesses that we had proposed in our motion, that we actually distribute,

13 I believe is the word you use. This line of documents that is against the

14 back wall are now in compliance, two copies or three copies in English,

15 two in French, plus copies for Defence counsel. Did you want those filed

16 or do you want them distributed by handing them out into the courtroom?

17 We are in time, we are ready, they are here, but I'd like a clarification

18 of what you meant by "distribute."

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just have them distributed.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Is the witness being brought in?

23 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe he has been asked to be brought in, yes.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, you had completed your -- where were

25 you?

 

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Page 1474

1 MR. GREAVES: I think I had finished.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, so it's Mr. Petrovic? Yes.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: May I just check to see on the progress of the --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 WITNESS: WITNESS F [Resumed]

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please be seated. Witness F, you remain subject

9 to your declaration.

10 Mr. Rodic?

11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

13 Q. Witness F, good morning.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. My name is Goran Rodic, one of the Defence counsel for Mr. Dosen,

16 and now I will ask you some questions. During the examination-in-chief,

17 you mentioned the situation towards the end of 1991, and you said that

18 numerous Serb refugees from Croatia arrived in Bosnia. Why did that

19 happen?

20 A. Because of the war in Croatia.

21 Q. Tell me, the situation following the elections in 1990, you said

22 that the SDA came out first. Is that right?

23 A. It is.

24 Q. You also said that you kept abreast of the developments through

25 the press and radio. Could you tell us what was going on in the political

Page 1475

1 plane in the late 1991 and early 1992 in Bosnia, and Prijedor

2 specifically?

3 A. I couldn't say that because I was not a politician.

4 Q. I didn't think you were one. I simply thought that if you

5 listened to the media, you would have to say something more specific.

6 A. I really wouldn't be able to.

7 Q. Also during the direct examination, you referred to certain rifts

8 between people right on the eve of the war, and my question to you is:

9 Was the emergence of ethnic parties in Bosnia and Herzegovina, didn't that

10 emergence already lead to a certain ethnic rift in contrast with the

11 previous life?

12 A. Well, yes, one could sense that.

13 Q. Could one say that politics contributed to that?

14 A. In all likelihood.

15 Q. Do you remember what went on in the Bosnia and Herzegovian

16 parliament? Could an agreement be reached on matters of fundamental

17 importance, agreement among the parties who quit the parliament?

18 A. I don't remember that.

19 Q. Are you aware that representatives of the Serb people left the

20 parliament of B and H?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you recall if the Serbs organised a referendum and when?

23 A. I do not remember.

24 Q. You said that it was common knowledge that whenever a crisis would

25 arise, then a Crisis Staff would be set up, isn't it?

Page 1476

1 A. It is.

2 Q. Could you tell us then, when did those Crisis Staff were formed in

3 the territory of B and H? Did all the three sides form them? When and

4 where were they formed?

5 A. I do not know that.

6 Q. Do you know if any Crisis Staffs were formed?

7 A. Crisis Staffs were formed after the Serbs had already taken over

8 the power.

9 Q. And were there any Crisis Staffs before the Serb side took over

10 the power?

11 A. I don't know that.

12 Q. Were there any Muslim or Croat Crisis Staffs?

13 A. I do not know that.

14 Q. And in the area of Puharska, was a Crisis Staff there?

15 A. There was when the weapons had to be handed over, when such

16 existed, because it is common knowledge that there was Territorial Defence

17 such as had been established before the war.

18 Q. And was that Crisis Staff in Puharska area was formed in November

19 1991?

20 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that, because I didn't have any

21 weapons, and I wasn't interested in that.

22 Q. You also said that before the change of power took place in

23 Prijedor that parties all voiced their programme on radio -- on the radio

24 in Prijedor, and you said that the SDS disseminated this propaganda, that

25 one should go to Croatia and fight for Yugoslavia. Tell us, why do you

Page 1477

1 consider that propaganda since at that time the SFRY was still in

2 existence?

3 A. To me it was a fratricidal war. If I go somewhere else round

4 Bosnia, then that was an aggression, to my mind, because we were the

5 citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina. There was nothing for us in Croatia. We

6 had no business in Croatia.

7 Q. But were you a citizen of Yugoslavia then?

8 A. Yugoslavia, I think, had already fallen apart. Bosnia was

9 recognised by the United Nations.

10 Q. This was before the recognition. My question refers to the period

11 before the recognition.

12 A. Then I do not remember that. I do not think it was before that.

13 Q. You said that during the interrogation in chief, that the Serbs

14 had taken over the power in Prijedor on the 30th of April, 1992, and in

15 view -- as you said that before the war, all the positions in Prijedor

16 were in the hands of the SDA. I would like to ask you, since those

17 parties did not and could not see eye-to-eye, wasn't it then natural that

18 the key positions should be taken over by Serbs since they took over the

19 authority there?

20 A. But they took over the power by force, by weapons, not in a

21 referendum or in elections.

22 Q. And given the ethnic composition before the takeover of power on

23 the part of the Serbs that all -- would it have been normal that all key

24 positions be held by members of the same ethnic group?

25 A. No.

Page 1478

1 Q. Could -- would you consider that this may have been one of the

2 reasons for the discontent?

3 A. I wouldn't be able to say that.

4 Q. You said that on the eve of the war, before the outbreak of the

5 war, you did not leave Puharska. Could you explain that?

6 A. What do you mean before the breakout of the war? We had no war at

7 that time.

8 Q. I am referring to April, May, early June.

9 A. That was not a war that we had there at all.

10 Q. Apart from the war, could you explain why you did not leave

11 Puharska? I mean, this is what you had stated.

12 A. Yes, I did say so. Because it was risky to move about town,

13 because we had to pass through five or six checkpoints in order to arrive

14 downtown, and at each checkpoint there were checks to determine your

15 ethnic background.

16 Q. And could you tell me whether there was a control point at the

17 entrance of Puharska?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And who held it?

20 A. The Serbs did.

21 Q. And there were controls there too?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You said that various armed groups wearing different uniforms were

24 moving about town. Were you able to identify them as the reservists or

25 the active-duty JNA personnel?

Page 1479

1 A. One was not able to distinguish that.

2 Q. What about the age? Would you be able to distinguish by age?

3 A. Of course you would have been able to distinguish it by age. What

4 I mean is there were both younger and older among them.

5 Q. You also said that you had heard that in late May, Keraterm was --

6 had -- was opened. Can you give us more details? How did you hear about

7 it, who told you this, and what was the reason stated?

8 A. As I said, I had some Serbs who were my neighbours and I would not

9 like to go into that.

10 Q. You don't need to give us any names. Just tell us --

11 A. It was from them that I heard about it.

12 Q. Did they tell you the reason why this was so?

13 A. They had their own opinion and the reasons were probably

14 different.

15 Q. So what was their opinion?

16 A. We were neighbours and they had completely different opinion.

17 Q. Can you just clarify? Did they -- they had completely different

18 view of it in relation to whom?

19 A. In relation to those who had opened up that camp.

20 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber who opened this camp?

21 A. The Serbs.

22 Q. That is a fairly wide --

23 A. It was the local Serbs, I don't know exactly, but it is sort of a

24 wide-ranging word.

25 Q. There are many Serbs in Prijedor.

Page 1480

1 A. I don't know. I cannot name the persons who opened this camp.

2 Probably someone else knows this.

3 Q. You also said that in early June you saw Serb soldiers coming to

4 Puharska and searching houses?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you tell us whether, again, my question is: Were they

7 active-duty personnel or reservists?

8 A. I was unable to distinguish the uniforms, that is active-duty

9 uniforms versus reserve uniforms. You cannot distinguish the two. We

10 lived in Yugoslavia, as you put it, and Yugoslavia had completely

11 different uniforms.

12 Q. Were these SMB uniforms, as we used to call them?

13 A. They were of different colours.

14 Q. Were these people from the Prijedor area or outside of Prijedor

15 area, if you know?

16 A. I knew some men from Prijedor, but I guess that there were some

17 others who were from outside, because I did not know them all.

18 Q. Was there any difference in behaviour between the men from

19 Prijedor and those who had come from outside?

20 A. I did not have any contact with them because I hid away from them

21 when they came.

22 Q. You mentioned that one Serb neighbour protected you from the

23 arrest and that you hid away at his house?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That means that you trusted him?

Page 1481

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And why did you trust him, in view of the previous experiences

3 which you mentioned here?

4 A. Because we knew each other well and our views coincided. We

5 agreed on our opinions.

6 Q. Did this Serb -- was this Serb in the military or somebody from

7 his midst?

8 A. He was in the military, but it was because he had to be with them.

9 Q. Do you believe that there were many others who had to be in the

10 military?

11 A. Probably.

12 Q. In the situation that was in Bosnia, wasn't it true that a lot of

13 people were not even asked whether they would -- they wanted to be in the

14 military or not?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Taking into account your last answer, we can -- could say that not

17 all Serbs were the same in terms of their relation to other ethnic groups?

18 A. I didn't say that.

19 Q. Could we agree on that statement?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You said that you had been called by telephone to report to the

22 barracks. Could you tell me why did you volunteer to report that even

23 though this person never introduced himself when he called you?

24 A. Had I not reported, the person who had called me would probably

25 show up with soldiers and then my family would have had problem in

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Page 1483

1 addition to me, because you could not hide anywhere.

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your permission, I

3 would like to ask the usher to give the witness a schedule which has

4 already been tendered here as Exhibit number 19 and place it on the ELMO.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You mentioned two military police structures which you marked as

8 "VP1" and "VP2" in the original. Could you tell us in some detail what

9 this military police "1" was?

10 A. I don't know what number "1" was because I was not there.

11 Q. And this military police marked with "1", how far was that from

12 the Keraterm compound?

13 A. Only the perimeter fence and the Banja Luka-Prijedor road

14 separated it from the camp, and it was only -- it used to be a road

15 maintenance facility -- company building before the war.

16 Q. Were you aware that there was some kind of a headquarters there at

17 that time?

18 A. No.

19 Q. From the vantage point, let's say in front of Rooms 1 and 2 in

20 Keraterm, was there a visual contact between that point and the military

21 police building?

22 A. I could see it.

23 Q. And conversely, persons who were in that building could see

24 Keraterm?

25 A. I don't know. I wasn't there, but probably.

Page 1484

1 Q. I simply was asking whether there was any visual obstacles between

2 the two areas.

3 A. We could see them. I don't know if they could have seen us.

4 Q. The persons who were there, did they have a military police

5 insignia or something that would distinguish them from the others?

6 A. Yes. They had white belts that distinguished them from the other

7 military personnel.

8 Q. And now relative to the military police facility which you marked

9 as "VP2" in the original, did they also have military police insignia?

10 A. Not all of them. There were other soldiers among them too.

11 Q. In the area which you marked as "VP2"?

12 A. Yes. And even civilians.

13 Q. Did you see military policemen and these other individuals moving

14 about the Keraterm compound freely?

15 A. Not in Keraterm.

16 Q. Was there any fence between the area marked by "VP2" and the --

17 and where the inmates' rooms were or was there free access there?

18 A. There was just a small passage and there was all the railroad line

19 which you had to cross and it was just a passageway.

20 Q. Could you show it to us on the sketch, because we cannot see it?

21 Where was that passageway?

22 A. Around here somewhere.

23 Q. The place that you're pointing at, can you tell us what the

24 distance was between that passageway and the road? Approximately.

25 A. Approximately about 10 metres.

Page 1485

1 Q. And there was no obstacle of any kind there between these two

2 areas?

3 A. But there was a fence running alongside the road.

4 Q. And between the "VP2"?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That means the area between the rooms as they are marked on the

7 sketch?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The access was free?

10 A. No. There was nothing. It was just the old railroad tracks.

11 Q. Could you tell us, when you were brought to the area marked as --

12 the building marked as "VP2", where did you come in, at what -- at which,

13 gate? How did you get to the building marked "VP2"?

14 A. There's a road.

15 Q. Yes. Could you please show us how you got there?

16 A. You could enter from the Banja Luka-Prijedor road, could you get

17 in unobstructed.

18 Q. Could you tell me one more thing about this sketch. Was this

19 railroad track in front or behind the "VP2" building?

20 A. It was in front.

21 Q. As you drew it on the sketch?

22 A. Approximately. The scale is not right.

23 Q. That means that there was free access to that building?

24 A. Yes. These were old -- either a canteen or something else or

25 maybe the dormitories for the workers of the ceramics building.

Page 1486

1 Q. And what military was in that area?

2 A. What do you mean?

3 Q. That building, "VP2".

4 A. Well, as I said, the military police.

5 Q. Could you tell me what colour that building was?

6 A. These were old wooden, makeshift buildings.

7 Q. And is this the right position of the building or is it more to

8 the other side, towards the area marked as "X"?

9 A. I don't know exactly. I couldn't tell you that.

10 Q. Can you recall whether on the railroad track that is the area

11 where the road intersects -- where the track intersects the road, was

12 there a checkpoint there? That is to the right.

13 A. I understand the question. I cannot recall.

14 Q. Now, let me take you to the area in front of Rooms 1 and 2. Can

15 you tell me whether there existed a kiosk at the gate at the entrance area

16 which you marked as concrete tarmac, at the left corner?

17 A. There was a reception hut with scales. That was the scales for

18 trucks which would come in.

19 Q. That is fine, but the entrance gate?

20 A. Yes. There was also that, but I didn't mark it.

21 Q. Could you point to the Trial Chamber where that kiosk was?

22 A. [Indicates]

23 Q. Was there a guard there? a sentry? a soldier?

24 A. I wouldn't be able to say who was standing there because I never

25 went up there.

Page 1487

1 Q. Now, tell me, between the area marked as the scales and the barrel

2 with water and green grassy area, was there another kiosk there?

3 A. I do not recall.

4 Q. In other words, the area in front of Room 1, was there anything

5 there?

6 A. No. Perhaps before my arrival there, but I do not recall anything

7 being there.

8 Q. Thank you. This is enough as far as the sketch is concerned. You

9 said that after you came to the gate, two policemen in -- drove up to you

10 in a Golf vehicle. My question to you is whether this vehicle had

11 military police markings on them -- on it?

12 A. No. And it wasn't a military police.

13 Q. These two men were not military policemen?

14 A. No.

15 Q. When you said that Radetic questioned you, was he taking any

16 notes?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And where exactly did he question you?

19 A. In his office, where he had his office.

20 Q. Was that in the perimeter of the camp?

21 A. No, it was in what I marked as "VP2". From the barracks they

22 brought me there to him, to Keraterm.

23 Q. Did he have any military police insignia?

24 A. No. He was in civilian clothes.

25 Q. You said that after that, you went together to your house to get a

Page 1488

1 vehicle?

2 A. Not him, no, not him.

3 Q. He sent some soldiers with you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did he perhaps say to you that your vehicle had been mobilised for

6 the needs of the military?

7 A. He did not say that it was mobilised. He said that it was being

8 confiscated.

9 Q. Now, apart from that situation, in view of the fact that you were

10 a taxi driver, did you know that the law provided that in certain

11 situations vehicles could be mobilised, passenger vehicles, freight

12 vehicles, livestock?

13 A. But not from one ethnic group only.

14 Q. Do you know about this legal provision?

15 A. No, I'm not -- I'm not aware of it.

16 Q. Do you know that in the -- the law provided that failure to comply

17 with this requisition request was a criminal act?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you given any receipt?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you ever ask that this vehicle be returned to you?

22 A. No. When? I had no opportunity to do that.

23 Q. Can you tell me, after the interview was completed at "VP2", who

24 escorted you to Keraterm, to the area in front of the rooms?

25 A. One of those guards. I don't know his name or anything about him.

Page 1489

1 Q. The guard, was he a member of the military police?

2 A. No, I don't think so, because he did not have the white belts. He

3 wasn't wearing them.

4 Q. Was he a member of the military that were there with the military

5 police?

6 A. Yes, because I did say that there were other soldiers there, in

7 addition to the military police.

8 Q. And where was that military based? Where were they based?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Were they somewhere close to the military police?

11 A. I wouldn't know.

12 Q. You said that when they took you to Keraterm, that you saw them

13 beating inmates. Did you recognise anyone?

14 A. From among those who were beating them, no. There were -- these

15 men were from around the -- around Prijedor, from Kozarac, Kozarusa,

16 Biscani and those places.

17 Q. Now, can you just tell me, I forgot to ask you that in relation to

18 the military police, which -- that you mentioned, when you were in front

19 of the rooms, when you would come out to this area in front of the rooms,

20 did you ever see soldiers who were not part of the security detail of your

21 -- in other words, either the military policemen or some other soldiers

22 who were moving about Keraterm?

23 A. I don't recall that, and I didn't have enough time to observe

24 that. I spent a very brief period of time with Radetic. I had no time to

25 observe anyone.

Page 1490

1 Q. You said that after your arrival, you spoke to Zigic, and the

2 situation that you mentioned was that it was while he was beating

3 detainees?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did that scare you?

6 A. Of course.

7 Q. And do you know if Zoran Zigic had ever been arrested?

8 A. What do you mean?

9 Q. At that time.

10 A. During the war?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. On the sketch, you marked room as the military prison next to Room

14 4. Were there any detainees in that facility and was it a military prison

15 throughout your detention?

16 A. I wouldn't be able to say.

17 Q. But did you see anyone kept under custody there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Whom?

20 A. There was a guy called Yugoslav who was there, a criminal from

21 Prijedor.

22 Q. Did he have a uniform?

23 A. He did, yes. But he moved about without any restraint.

24 Q. You mean as a detainee?

25 A. That's right.

Page 1491

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Page 1492

1 Q. You said that you did your military service in Karlovac with

2 engineers, if I'm correct. Did you -- after the service, did you become a

3 member of the reserve?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So you did not have any combat orders or anything?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Nor did you attend any military drill?

8 A. I didn't.

9 Q. Could you draw a parallel between the situation when you did your

10 regular military service and the -- in terms of discipline, order,

11 subordination and so on and so forth, and draw a parallel with the

12 situation when you arrived in Keraterm?

13 A. It was 100 per cent different.

14 Q. You mean there was no similarity?

15 A. None.

16 Q. When you say it was 100 per cent different, that difference, do

17 you mean it in the affirmative sense or an adverse sense?

18 A. In an adverse sense.

19 Q. You told us a while ago that you were frightened by Zigic's

20 behaviour but he also advised you to go to Room 1?

21 A. Yes, and I'm grateful to him.

22 Q. Then you said that you found some room in the back of the

23 dormitory under the wash-basin in Room 1; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was that place also the result of his advice also?

Page 1493

1 A. That was the only place I could find because nobody wanted to sit

2 under the wash-basin.

3 Q. Could you roughly tell us, from the door into Room 1, to the place

4 where you were, could you roughly tell us what the length is?

5 A. About 20 metres.

6 Q. You mean in depth?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was there any water in that wash-basin?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And in Room 1, was there a barrel or something which was used by

11 people to relieve themselves?

12 A. Yes, that's right, in a corner next to the entrance.

13 Q. When was it used?

14 A. Well, people used it mostly at night because it was dangerous to

15 go out, that is, ask somebody to go to the toilet, so that people --

16 Q. And tell me, from the place that you were in in the room and to

17 the door, how many people were there between you and the door?

18 A. Many.

19 Q. Could you name a figure?

20 A. A hundred, 150.

21 Q. And did people lie down or sit or move about or stand?

22 A. Well, it depended on the time of the day and -- depends. One

23 can't explain that.

24 Q. When you spoke about food, could you tell me, where was bread

25 kept?

Page 1494

1 A. Bread was kept in those - what should I call them? - in plastic

2 crates. It was brought there.

3 Q. And where were those plastic crates or plastic baskets kept?

4 A. There was a room where bread was sliced.

5 Q. Did the prisoners slice that bread?

6 A. They did.

7 Q. Did the prisoners distribute food too?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Rodic, I think we've been over all this. It

10 hasn't been disputed that the prisoners sliced the bread and distributed

11 it. Unless it's a matter in dispute, there's no need to go over it

12 again. Do you see?

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked this question

14 because other witnesses testified differently. That is the reason,

15 but --

16 JUDGE MAY: That's not my recollection. Now, please let's move

17 on. We've heard that there's a shortage of time. It's everybody's duty

18 to move the case forward.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Tell me, were there any lights in Keraterm?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In what way?

23 A. There were searchlights which they had brought and mounted on a

24 table.

25 Q. And before those searchlights were brought, were there any lamp

Page 1495

1 posts or something?

2 A. Yes, there were.

3 Q. But were they in working order?

4 A. At times, yes; at times, no, because there were power cuts, power

5 cuts in the town as a whole.

6 Q. Did it happen often, those power cuts?

7 A. I couldn't say really.

8 Q. You said that there were three guard shifts in Keraterm. So my

9 question to you is: How long were those shifts? When did they change?

10 A. Oh, I wouldn't be able to tell you that. I suppose they know

11 that.

12 Q. But do you know when this three-shift system was established?

13 A. It was established prior to my arrival in the camp.

14 Q. You said that shift commanders were Kole, Kajin, Fustar.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you familiar with Tomo Prodan?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you used to see him around the camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what did he do there?

21 A. He was a guard.

22 Q. On which shift?

23 A. I wouldn't know.

24 Q. When you spoke about Kajin, you said -- you described how you knew

25 him and how you knew his father, and you said, "I thought we were

Page 1496

1 friends." Could you tell us what you meant by that?

2 A. Because I know his entire family, and I'm sure that he knows me

3 well. He's been to my house I don't know how many times, and I thought

4 that we were friends. His father is a very good man, his brother is even

5 better, and I know what -- what is this.

6 Q. But did he ever harm you personally or do something unto you?

7 A. No, he did not harm me, but he could have helped so that others

8 wouldn't harm me.

9 Q. Did you see him help anyone?

10 A. Well, he helped me by calling the doctor to take me to the

11 hospital. Not only me, but others too. Although he could have helped on

12 other occasions. For instance, where Banovics beat me, he just walked

13 past and never paid any attention.

14 Q. Tell me, what was his brother's name?

15 A. I don't know. No, I don't know what his nickname was, but I know

16 he worked at a restaurant, that he was a waiter there, and we were good

17 friends.

18 Q. Was his brother a guard in Keraterm?

19 A. I think he wasn't. Perhaps he came to visit him, but I don't

20 think he was a guard. I don't know.

21 Q. You said that shift commanders were present during beatings. You

22 described how those took place all over the camp in Keraterm, and you also

23 said that there were no beatings during Kole's shift; is that correct?

24 A. It is. Well, not as much as on other shifts.

25 Q. And the battery room which you marked with "X" on your sketch, was

Page 1497

1 it an isolated room?

2 A. What do you mean "isolated"?

3 Q. Was it isolated from all four sides? Was it fenced off?

4 A. No, its front side was open. It was a hangar or a car depot or

5 something like that.

6 Q. When you refer to the presence, can you be more specific and

7 explain what you mean by this, bearing in mind the number of prisoners in

8 Keraterm, the size of the area?

9 A. What do you mean "presence"? You mean the presence of shift

10 commanders?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Well, also they were somewhere around. That is, they could lock

13 the dormitories when they felt like it, and when they didn't, they just

14 left them open. But they were around or they would simply vanish

15 somewhere. They would simply leave.

16 Q. That is why I'm asking you. When you say "present," does this

17 mean that he is present in the compound?

18 A. Well, they would be present, for instance, when the food was

19 distributed, and that is when they usually beat us, when food was

20 distributed, or they would line us up and beat us there. They were

21 present there, for instance, during the readouts, they would line us up as

22 if supposedly they were taking some people to Trnopolje, some of the

23 elderly people, but they were present there. That is they were -- at

24 those times, they were there.

25 Q. Could you be more specific, they are beating somebody in front of

Page 1498

1 Room 1 and in Room "X", for instance, would the shift commander then,

2 according to you, be present there if he is somewhere in the Keraterm

3 area?

4 A. Naturally he is, because he allowed those men to enter the

5 Keraterm compound, which means that he is present, he's an accomplice. If

6 you allow somebody to enter, that means that you know that he is there.

7 Q. And how do you know that he allowed them to enter?

8 A. How else did they enter?

9 Q. The persons that you indicated, Zigic, Duca, Timarac, did they

10 enter Keraterm freely?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were they armed?

13 A. Yup.

14 Q. Did somebody ever stop them?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Could anyone stop them?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who, to your mind?

19 A. Those gentlemen.

20 Q. Could you be more specific? Which gentlemen?

21 A. The accused.

22 Q. Were you present when there was some fire exchanged between

23 guards?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Tell me, when you were taken to the investigator for

Page 1499

1 interrogation, could you explain the status of investigators in relation

2 to guards? Was he superior to them or subordinate to them?

3 A. What do you mean, what investigator?

4 Q. The interrogators on the upper floor.

5 A. They were all by themselves in those offices and those were merely

6 formalities that -- the date of birth, name, your ethnic background, what

7 do you think about the situation, and such like. They could not be called

8 mistreatment.

9 Q. But to your mind, were there -- did they rank higher than the

10 guards in the camp?

11 A. I couldn't say that. I do not know. But I think that it was they

12 nevertheless who compiled those lists, the lists of 120 names.

13 Q. But could you tell us when you would be taken to this

14 investigator, which way would they take you up to him?

15 A. What do you mean, which way?

16 Q. Well, they take you out of Room 1, behind the room there was a

17 passage and then stairways leading to the upper floor. And as for the

18 time that you spent at Keraterm, could you give us the dates which stuck

19 in your memory which you still remember?

20 A. The dates?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Yes, I can.

23 Q. Will you give us?

24 A. The 12th June I was taken away.

25 Q. You mean arrested?

Page 1500

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Page 1501

1 A. Yes, arrested. The 5th of July is when I was beaten. On the 7th

2 of July, taken to the hospital. On the 24th of July, the first massacre.

3 On the 25th of July, the second massacre. On the 8th of August, Keraterm

4 disbanded.

5 Q. And when did you leave Keraterm?

6 A. When it was disbanded and it was the last day for all of us.

7 Q. Was that the 8th of August?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You mentioned the 5th of July as the date on which you were beaten

10 by Zigic, Duca, Vokic, Timarac and some other men whom you did not know

11 and were present there; is that correct?

12 A. It is. I knew another one whom you didn't mention.

13 Q. You mean Karlica?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did it happen in that room which you marked with "X"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You said that on that occasion, Fustar's shift was on duty?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Was Fustar present when it happened?

20 A. I think not. I think he was somewhere in the compound.

21 Q. It means that he was present within the compound?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You said that in the hospital you were interrogated by military

24 investigators?

25 A. That's right.

Page 1502

1 Q. And when you returned to Keraterm, you then -- you again said that

2 persons who had beaten you kept coming to the -- to the place?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does that mean that no sanctions were undertaken against them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what do you think, why was that?

7 A. For what?

8 Q. That no sanctions were applied to them.

9 A. I couldn't say that. What are you trying to prove, that somebody

10 was afraid of them?

11 Q. I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just asking.

12 A. I don't know.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness F, was there some kind of a sentry gate

14 through which persons entering the camp had to pass and where they would

15 be checked before entering?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: It was manned by who?

18 A. It was manned by camp guards, by the guards of Keraterm.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

20 A. Because we could get food from our families, and the guards at the

21 gate would take this food or, rather, those bags with food and would look

22 through them and keep whatever that was good in them and the rest they

23 just threw on the garbage dump.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Rodic, please continue.

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank, Your Honours.

Page 1503

1 Q. Did you ever talk with Kajin?

2 A. No. No.

3 Q. Did you ever approach him to ask him something in the camp?

4 A. No, no, because I was afraid. I didn't know how he would react.

5 Because it would have been natural for him to come to me since I was in a

6 worse situation than he was.

7 Q. There is no doubt that you were in a worse situation, but in view

8 of the number of people there?

9 A. Well -- but he did see me about. He knew that I was there.

10 Q. And did he talk with the foreman of your room, the man who was

11 made responsible for Room 1?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Are you aware that every room had its foreman?

14 A. Yes, I know that.

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 A. Well, yes, but --

20 Q. You said that Kajin organised help, that is, organised a visit to

21 the doctor.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you see that as his attempt to protect people?

24 A. Well, I suppose so. He saw what the situation was in the room,

25 because there were so many living dead there.

Page 1504

1 Q. But could somebody else realise the situation before him?

2 A. Well, it was the second day after -- yes, of course they could.

3 Q. And did anyone ever undertake anything?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Well, then, could one take this as his -- as the effort he made to

6 help you?

7 A. Why, yes.

8 Q. And can we then take it that he disagreed with the fact that

9 somebody beat you or that other people were beaten? He didn't just gloss

10 over that?

11 A. Well, possibly, yes, but he must have realised already that he

12 would be proclaimed a war --

13 Q. Do not say anything.

14 A. Yes, I think he was already aware --

15 Q. What?

16 A. That he was aware that he would be proclaimed a war criminal,

17 because it did happen from time to time that he did have one too many,

18 that he'd come to us, begin to cry and say that this would happen. I

19 mean, he was aware of that. But at any rate, be that as it may, I mean he

20 did help us by doing what he did to have us moved to the hospital.

21 Q. But do you know why did he cry and where would he come on such

22 occasions?

23 A. Well, he would come to the door of the dormitory at night, and I

24 suppose when all of a sudden he'd feel bad and he'd come over to talk with

25 us, and that was that.

Page 1505

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are at the time when we take a break. You

2 must try to complete your cross-examination as quickly as possible. How

3 much longer do you have?

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] About 15 minutes or so after the break

5 then.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now and we'll resume at

7 11.30.

8 Witness F, I remind you not to discuss your evidence with anyone

9 during the break, including members of the Prosecution.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. [No translation]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you check on the translation.

16 Would you start again.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Not all answers were -- appeared on

18 the record, so I would just like to make two or three follow-up questions

19 just for him to be able to give answers. Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness F, is it true that you said that after you were beaten

21 that nobody gave you assistance even though people were able to see and

22 were in a position to do so?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. The fact that Kajin organised medical care, you said that in this

25 way he had protected you?

Page 1506

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. All injured persons were examined by a doctor; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said that Kajin frequently came and talked to the inmates and

5 said that he was sorry that all this was happening, because he was friends

6 with a lot of you; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You also said that on these occasions, it happened that he was

9 crying while he was there with you; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. RODIC: I would like the assistance of the usher, please, to

12 show the Witness F the appropriate medical records that are referred to

13 him. And we also have sufficient number of copies for Their Honours. The

14 Prosecution and the parties have been provided with the copies of this

15 earlier.

16 Q. Can I ask you, please, to just check the name, the date of birth,

17 and is that identical with your date? In fact, first you have the

18 translation and then it will be the original.

19 A. There is no translation here.

20 Q. Will you please check all the pages that you have.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Does that refer to you?

23 A. Yes. I see both my last name and the date of birth.

24 Q. Does that data appear on each of the pages of the document or each

25 of the versions of the document?

Page 1507

1 A. Yes, the first and last name, yes, but I was not taken to the

2 hospital on the 1st of July.

3 Q. Just a moment, please. We will ask you that. But we are in

4 agreement on the data, the personal data?

5 A. Yes, that is all right.

6 Q. This is also an excerpt from the hospital registry reflecting your

7 reception in the hospital?

8 A. Why does it say Ljubija? I was never --

9 Q. How about the name and the birth year?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And it says detainee from Keraterm?

12 A. Yes, but everything is crossed out. It seems like it was written

13 and then erased again.

14 Q. And then next you have the history of -- or the -- of condition

15 for Witness F. It is this document, and it states both Puharska and

16 prisoner from Keraterm.

17 A. I was -- prisoner? What does --

18 Q. Prisoner from Keraterm.

19 A. I was a camp inmate.

20 Q. I'm just reading what is stated there. There is also a referral

21 of the specialist bearing your name there; is that correct?

22 A. Yes. Again, first, last name, and birth year.

23 Q. This release letter from the hospital, it also refers to you?

24 A. Yes, but there again, only the year of birth and the name is

25 right.

Page 1508

1 Q. And Puharska?

2 A. Yes, but --

3 Q. Please let me ask you the appropriate questions.

4 A. Very well.

5 Q. You mentioned 5th of July as the date when you were beaten?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In your discharge document and your the letter of your reception,

8 it states that you were treated between the 1st and the 9th of July?

9 A. That is wrong. I was beaten on the 5th. I was taken to the

10 hospital on the 7th, and I stayed there for about ten days.

11 Q. How do you explain this, this date, both the -- both these

12 documents reflect the 1st. Could it be that you were taken to the

13 hospital on the 1st and that you had been beaten two days before?

14 A. No, that is not correct. I was beaten on the 5th. I couldn't

15 have been taken to the hospital before having been beaten.

16 Q. But do you allow for a mistake in the date?

17 A. No. And I wasn't there about these eight days but about ten days,

18 and I know who was with me in the hospital and who these men were.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would -- I tender the

20 medical records for the witness into evidence.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. I would just like to remind Mr. Rodic

22 and the other Defence counsel that what I said about producing exhibits in

23 the two working languages applies equally to them, and it also applies to

24 documents that are produced in court as potential exhibits, as documents

25 which may or may not become exhibits. But certainly where you intend to

Page 1509

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Page 1510

1 produce a document as an exhibit, it is to be in the two working

2 languages.

3 Yes, Ms. Baly?

4 MS. BALY: Your Honour, we have no objection to the admission of

5 this document. We do note, however, that it does name the witness and we

6 would ask that it be admitted under seal.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. It will be under seal for that reason,

8 yes.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D1/2.

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Could you tell me whether on that occasion, were the two Ganic

12 men, a father and a son, were taken to the hospital?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And anyone else that you knew by name?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you name them?

17 A. Eso Islamovic, a policeman from Ljubija, was there with me, and a

18 16 year old boy, Alisic, Admir or Almir and there was also an Albanian

19 man, and there were the Edin and Abaz Ganic, a son and a father.

20 Q. Can you tell me now, during your examination-in-chief you said

21 that you had been beaten in the hospital too?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you give us any details about that?

24 A. In the hospital we had a guard in front of our room, and also

25 there were guards who were outside under the windows.

Page 1511

1 Q. Were these soldiers or policemen?

2 A. Soldiers.

3 Q. And if you had a guard in front of the room, how could it happen

4 that somebody would beat you?

5 A. That is a silly question.

6 Q. It is not a silly question. This is a question I ask you.

7 A. The guards let them in.

8 Q. Did you complain to anyone at the hospital? Did anyone

9 intervene?

10 A. No. We did not complain to anyone because we did not know to

11 whom, and also, we did not dare. To whom were we to have complained? We

12 were happy to have been brought to the hospital at all.

13 Q. In view of the injuries that you sustained, do you believe that

14 your life was saved by the fact that you were brought to the hospital?

15 A. Probably.

16 Q. Just quickly I want to ask you something else. You said that you

17 were beaten by the Banovic brothers?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you tell me whether this happened before your

20 hospitalisation or after?

21 A. It happened after I came back from the hospital. We were lined up

22 for the food and water and this is when it happened.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm finished. Thank you

24 very much.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic.

Page 1512

1 There's a question from Judge Fassi Fihri.

2 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Did you personally see the

3 moment when the machine-guns were mounted?

4 A. We could not see it because I was at the bottom of the dormitory,

5 and we didn't even dare look.

6 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] And when did you realise that

7 there were machine-guns there or when were you told about that?

8 A. The machine-gun nest was there all the time to the left of the

9 entrance, that is, to the right of the rooms. This is when I was brought

10 to the camp. It was there all the time.

11 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] And was it aiming at Room 3?

12 A. There was no one manning in machine-gun nest during the day.

13 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Vucicevic.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic:

16 Q. Mr. Witness F, I'm representing Dragan Kolundzija, and I would

17 just start where colleague Rodic has left off.

18 MR. VUCICEVIC: Mr. Usher, could you please show this document to

19 the witness? Mr. Usher could you put -- after he looks at the document,

20 could you put it on the ELMO, please?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly?

22 MS. BALY: Your Honour, we don't know what the witness is being

23 shown. We wonder if we could have a copy of the document.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let the document be shown to Prosecution

25 counsel.

Page 1513

1 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, I apologise. I didn't know this

2 matter was going to come up, and I just had it, you know, so I just

3 thought I would just continue with it. Your Honours, those are a lab test

4 direction form, you know, just a direction slip for the lab tests.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not translated, Mr. Vucicevic.

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, it is. I'll get the translation.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have a translated version?

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me see the document.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We observe that the witness' name is on it, so

12 that's a difficulty.

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, we can -- for the time being, for a

14 short period, could we get into the private session and I will ask him a

15 question, too, concerning the document?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1514

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13 Pages 1514 1525 redacted in private session.

14

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Page 1526

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 MR. VUCICEVIC:

4 Q. At the end of that statement, you have signed a witness

5 acknowledgement stating that the statement given its truth to the best of

6 your knowledge and recollection.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that was read to you in B/C/S version?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In that statement, you said this -- it was just six months ago,

11 when, in fact, it happened nine years ago. You said this: "I can tell

12 you today that I was escorted from the office to the Keraterm camp by two

13 soldiers."

14 You indeed have problem with numbers, but not the dates only, just

15 the numbers in general, don't you?

16 A. Two soldiers from the office to the exit.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues]... did you, on the 15th of

18 September, you said there were two soldiers escorting you, yes or no?

19 A. I gave a statement but it doesn't show what I had in mind.

20 Q. So it's again the whole world is misinterpreting what you say?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, reserve your comments for a

22 speech.

23 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Were you interrogated again in Keraterm?

25 A. The civilian police.

Page 1527

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13 English transcripts.

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25

Page 1528

1 Q. Do you know who were the persons that were kept in Room 1, who

2 they were kept in Room 1?

3 A. In Room number 1 were mostly the inhabitants of the Puharska.

4 Q. Do you know why they were people from Puharska in Room 2 or in

5 Room 1? There was another big difference other witness have testified

6 about so far. Would you try to remember another difference?

7 A. No. It just says people arrived, they were put in different

8 rooms.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues]... after interrogation, if

10 considered to have been vindicated themselves from any charges, they were

11 moved to Room number 1; isn't that true?

12 A. That is not true.

13 Q. So when your friend, Mr. Zigic told you to hide in Room 1 and deep

14 into the room, to the back of Room 1, he sent you there because he wanted

15 a certain death for you, didn't he?

16 A. I don't know what he meant. I don't know.

17 Q. Well, you also testified when you were taken from building where

18 you were interrogated, just across the street, about, you know, 100, 150

19 yards, you were taken directly to Room 3 and 4, to the group of the

20 prisoners that was beaten, and from there, you went to the back of Room 1;

21 that is correct? You said it.

22 A. No, I did not say that ever. And you have proof. I never said

23 that.

24 Q. Let me just remind you, I mean, you know, I was referring directly

25 from the record. We are going to go line by line.

Page 1529

1 A. Yeah, sure, do read it.

2 Q. "Question: What happened when you arrived at Keraterm? Answer:

3 The guard brought me to the corner of what has been marked on sketch as

4 Room 1, and he ordered me to report to the guards on duty there, who were

5 lined up in front of Room 3 as marked on the sketch." I was basically

6 asking you just to acknowledge this. You said that, didn't you?

7 A. Yes, I did say that.

8 Q. Then the guards that were beating up the other people offered you

9 some drinks and you drank it with them, didn't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Have you ever been drinking with Zigic before, while you were both

12 taxi drivers or have known yourself -- known each other in the past?

13 A. No. I didn't drink any alcohol with him but I -- we were in the

14 same company. We worked together. We did not socialise.

15 Q. And after that, quote unquote, reception that Zigic had given you,

16 you have testified as follows: "Zigic told me to go to rear part of

17 dormitory because he told me that at night people come to beat so it was

18 better for me to be in rear part of dormitory, and he told me to go to

19 number 1 because it was the best."

20 A. Yes, that is true, but before that you said that I had gone to

21 Rooms 3 and 4.

22 Q. I just want to know, did you follow Zigic's advice and went to

23 Room number 1?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. So at least on that day, on the time that you received, Zigic not

Page 1530

1 only tried to send you to the room where you would be the least exposed to

2 any dangers, but he has hidden you from the official bookkeeping procedure

3 in the camp so nobody knew that you were there; isn't that correct?

4 A. No. I first had to go to report at the -- in the reception

5 office, that is to have my name taken down. It was after that that I went

6 to the dormitory.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues]... testifying for you but when

8 you testified on Thursday, you never mentioned that, didn't you?

9 A. Nobody asked me.

10 Q. Witness F, first there were two soldiers that brought you, and

11 yesterday there was one soldier. And there was -- when I asked you where

12 you were taken, you were fighting me, saying that I wanted to put you to

13 some different place. I read you the record; you agreed. Not a single

14 time did you mention that your name was recorded, and I merely suggested

15 that Zigic had helped you in more than one way, now you are

16 back-pedalling; isn't that correct?

17 A. You asked me if I went to dormitories 3 and 4. Then you started

18 reading my statement and then you told me where I had gone to. And before

19 that, a question was: "Did you go to dormitory 3 or 4?" Perhaps you

20 didn't read the statement properly. The guards were in front of

21 dormitories 3 and 4 where they were beating.

22 Q. You've already testified to all of this. I think we are wasting

23 time. Let me ask you another question.

24 A. Yes, specific questions.

25 Q. You have testified that on July 24th, at daytime, that was

Page 1531

1 Fustar's shift, isn't that correct?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So throughout the daytime on 24th, it was not Fustar's shift?

4 A. I wouldn't be able to say that.

5 Q. So then when you testified on your direct, you were guessing, you

6 weren't sure?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So what is the truth now? I mean, you know, please just think and

9 say, was it Fustar? Wasn't it Fustar? When you said Fustar in direct,

10 were you guessing or were you just confused?

11 A. I do not know who was on duty that day, but I know at night who it

12 was. So ask me about the night-time. Don't ask me about the daytime.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Witness F, you have testified,

14 you have taken oath that you are going to tell the truth and the whole

15 truth, and what you are trying here, you want to tell the partial truth

16 only, don't you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And when you --

19 A. I never said that it was Fustar's shift on duty at -- in daytime.

20 Q. His Honour Judge Fassi Fihri asked you earlier whether you have

21 seen anything at night on 24th whether you -- whether you have seen

22 machine-guns being moved. You said no. Isn't that correct? You said

23 that to judge, didn't you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And when you testified on Thursday, when the Prosecutor asked you,

Page 1532

1 did you see anything that night, you said no, you just heard.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And your location, your position in Room 1, you said it's below,

4 it was below the sink, way in the back of the room. If you just for the

5 illustration say that that room was as big as this one, perhaps a little

6 longer, and if those windows were the doors, you were just about the same

7 distance, some place in the middle of the room or more to the rear; isn't

8 that correct?

9 A. Except that that room was slightly smaller than this one.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... little more to the rear side

11 of the room; that's correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you testified for the OTP on 15th of September last year, you

14 have said the following. That was the page 8, last sentence: "Because it

15 was night, I could easily see the shooting direction because I could see

16 the nozzle fire of the weapons." So you really couldn't see anything,

17 that was not what you saw because if you did, you wouldn't have made a

18 statement to His Honour Judge Fassi Fihri that you didn't see anything.

19 At that time you were just trying to tell something that you didn't see.

20 A. As far as I can remember, His Honour asked me if I saw the

21 machine-guns being placed, being mounted. He did not ask me about seeing

22 any fire from those machine-guns, if I remember properly. And the fire

23 from machine-guns is something completely different.

24 Q. When you testified on direct, the Prosecutor has asked you what

25 have you seen that night, and you said, "I didn't see anything. I could

Page 1533

1 hear what was going on." You said that and that is in the record. So,

2 therefore, what you told Honourable Judge, you basically just confirmed

3 what you said on your direct, that you didn't see anything. And your

4 statement that you've given to Prosecutor, it's half a truth and half

5 guessing, and that's basically what was your testimony all about in court;

6 isn't it correct?

7 MR. VUCICEVIC: I have no more question, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic.

9 Ms. Baly.

10 Re-examined by Ms. Baly:

11 Q. Just one question, Witness F. How do you fix the date of your

12 beating as being the 5th of July, 1992?

13 A. I was born on the 5th of June, so it was one month after my

14 birthday.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. BALY: No further questions.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Witness F. That completes your

18 testimony. You are released.

19 MS. BALY: Your Honours, I do have the French translation of

20 Exhibit 19 available for the Court.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

22 Mr. Greaves is it something relating to this witness or --

23 MR. GREAVES: Yes. I don't know what Your Honours want to do

24 about the documents upon which he was cross-examined, which were the

25 newspaper article and two statements that he made. I anticipate Your

Page 1534

1 Honours will ask to have them exhibited.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, they should be exhibited. The witness

3 should leave.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness?

6 MR. RYNEVELD: The Prosecution calls Jusuf Arifagic. The fact

7 that I've used his full name means that there are no protective measures

8 sought in this case.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.

10 MR. GREAVES: Whilst we're waiting for the next witness, there was

11 also the document that I showed to the witness which he didn't accept ever

12 having seen before, but that should be a potential Defence exhibit.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I remember that, but did you intend to have

14 this exhibited or at a later --

15 MR. GREAVES: At a later stage.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: At later stage. Yes.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Again, while we're waiting for the witness to

18 arrive, I might say that despite the fact that we have provided summaries

19 as of last Friday, only one of three counsel has provided us with an

20 indication as to which paragraphs I'm entitled to lead, and I propose to

21 follow that guide, and I'm sorry if the others haven't provided it.

22 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Ryneveld, why not use your own initiative.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: I shall.

24 JUDGE MAY: Where there seems to be no dispute, lead. Let them

25 object.

Page 1535

1 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm going to. Thank you.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 WITNESS: JUSUF ARIFAGIC

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

11 Q. Now, Witness, I understand, sir, that you were born in 1961 in the

12 village of Kozarac in the opstina Prijedor. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And your ethnicity is Muslim Bosniak?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And I understand, sir, that you did your compulsory military

17 training and then you obtained employment in Croatia, and you returned to

18 Kozarac in December of 1991; is that also correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. Now, sir, this village of Kozarac, I understand, sir, that that is

21 a mainly Muslim area comprised of little villages and hamlets. It's not

22 just one town. It's an area comprised of villages and hamlets; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes, that is correct too.

25 Q. Is it also safe to say, sir, that these villages were surrounded

Page 1536

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13 English transcripts.

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22

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24

25

Page 1537

1 by other Serbian villages?

2 A. Yes. Kozarac was surrounded by five or six Serbian villages.

3 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you, with Mr. Usher's help, perhaps you

4 could be shown a map that I would like you to quickly have a look at.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: There are other copies available. Your Honours,

6 this is a map. The names of the places are on it. There are no

7 translations into any other language, so hopefully since this is a map and

8 it only has names of places, that it doesn't require additional

9 translation.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that may be so.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Now, Mr. Usher, perhaps you could assist the

12 witness by placing that map on the ELMO.

13 Q. And, sir, have you had an opportunity to look at this map? Can

14 you see the area depicted in red, that is depicted with a red line? Is

15 that the opstina of Prijedor, to your knowledge?

16 A. Yes. I believe that it covers almost everything.

17 Q. All right. And the area that is made up of little villages to

18 which you refer to as Kozarac, do you see that area on the map? Would you

19 take the pointer, please, and point that out for us?

20 A. Yes, I do see it, but it's a fairly poor picture.

21 Q. On the ELMO it would be, but if you could look at the map and

22 point that out to Their Honours.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. You're now pointing to the record, to something in blue that's

25 labelled Kozarac?

Page 1538

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How large an area? Are you able to indicate to us the area that

3 comprises Kozarac?

4 A. The area of Kozarac consisted of six smaller local communes,

5 Kamicani, Trnopolje, Kevljani, Babici, Hrnici, Jaruge. Those were those

6 places. And Kozarusa.

7 Q. All right, sir. And the area surrounding this area of Kozarac

8 included a place like Omarska, did it? The Serbian villages.

9 A. Yes. I think that Omarska was a larger centre, also part of the

10 Prijedor municipality, but it was part of the area surrounding Kozarac.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that be marked as an exhibit in these

13 proceedings? And I'd like to move on, if I may.

14 THE REGISTRAR: OTP Exhibit 20.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

16 Q. Now, sir, is it safe to say that you had Serbian friends from

17 these various villages around Kozarac and that leading up to the conflict,

18 you noted some civil unrest and increased troop and vehicle movements?

19 A. Yes. I had Serb friends and that was completely normal in

20 Prijedor. The way I went to school and the way we were transported to

21 school, we were all part of the same school. We all had the same way of

22 doing things, and it was quite normal in the town of Prijedor to have Serb

23 and Croat friends.

24 Q. Yes. And just leading up to the conflict, shall we say, in early

25 1992, sir, did you notice anything that was happening with respect to

Page 1539

1 increased troop and vehicle movements with JNA insignia? The area in

2 which you lived?

3 MR. VUCICEVIC: Objection to the question. Just -- you know, it's

4 very indefinite saying, "Leading up to the conflict." Could you please

5 refer to a time?

6 MR. RYNEVELD: The time I refer to in my question was early 1992.

7 I'm trying to lead to a particular time.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I think the question is sufficiently

9 specific.

10 A. Yes. One could observe that. Part of the JNA troops which were

11 pulling out of Croatia was stationed -- deployed in the Prijedor

12 municipality. One part was at Benkovac at the Mrakovice monument, and

13 they were going from Banja Luka in the direction of Prijedor, and some of

14 them were going in the direction of Croatia.

15 MR. RYNEVELD:

16 Q. Sir, I don't want to spend a lot of time in this area, but do I

17 understand correctly that two months to the takeover of Prijedor, the

18 television station and the radio station became dominated by the Serbs?

19 Is that correct?

20 A. Yes. The explanation was that Yugoslav People's Army had taken

21 control of the TV relay at Kozarac, and we could see this by the fact that

22 all the programming that we were getting were the Serb, and it was

23 impossible to get any programming that was coming from Sarajevo and other

24 centres.

25 Q. All right. And, sir, I referred to the takeover of Prijedor by

Page 1540

1 the Serbs. Do you remember when that was?

2 A. Yes. That was sometime towards the end of April 1992. We

3 received information that the SDS had taken control over the Prijedor

4 municipality, that that was -- everything was under their control and that

5 we should behave according to the directions that we received. In other

6 words, that we were supposed to sign an oath of loyalty to the new

7 authorities and this was now a Serb town.

8 Q. This was now a Serb town. Are you referring to Prijedor, sir?

9 A. Yes, I'm referring to Prijedor, called municipality, that is.

10 Q. Yes. Sir, you indicated that the radio station said something

11 about an oath of loyalty. Did the Muslim population in your area agree to

12 that?

13 A. The Muslim population for the most part did not agree to that, at

14 least those of us in Kozarac. We did not agree to any allegiance other

15 than to the legally elected authorities in Sarajevo.

16 Q. I see. And did you hear anything on radio that indicated to you

17 what consequences would be if such an oath of allegiance were not signed?

18 A. On the radio, there were frequent broadcasts in which the

19 population was tried to be convinced that we should be loyal to -- that

20 she should all sign the loyalty to the new authorities, and whoever would

21 sign the loyalty oath would be safe and -- but the population did not wish

22 to sign, and they said that if -- that if they did not sign, that there

23 would be still not -- that they would still not be at risk.

24 Q. Did you believe that you would not be at risk if you signed the

25 oath? And if not, why not?

Page 1541

1 A. At that point, it was difficult to believe what would happen, what

2 -- in view of the news that we were receiving, we thought that regardless

3 of whether we sign or not, we thought that we would share the same fate,

4 but we, until the very last moment, did not believe that there would be a

5 conflict.

6 Q. Share the same fate as whom? What are you referring to?

7 A. For instance, at that time the television were already -- the

8 television had already broadcast that certain villages had signed the

9 loyalty but they were occupied and the population was being driven out and

10 we thought that by the fact of our signing it, we would not get anything.

11 Q. All right, sir. I'd like to direct your attention to the 24th of

12 May. Did something happen at that time that you know about?

13 A. Yes, on the 24th of May, after a lot of negotiations and

14 discussions about the signing of loyalty and our refusal to do so, the

15 attack on Kozarac followed.

16 Q. And I'm just going to go through this, if I may, sir. As I

17 understand, your town was shelled; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, the town was shelled. First, these were actually -- it was

19 fire from machine-guns, I guess, from Donji Garevci and Orlovci.

20 Q. And you're personally aware that people were killed and that the

21 shelling lasted for about 48 hours; is that right?

22 A. Yes, I know that this shelling went on for about 48 hours. The

23 position where I was, at the beginning of the attack on Kozarac, this

24 position was shelled and six young men were killed the following morning

25 by a shell.

Page 1542

1 Q. Sir, I understand that Kozarac surrendered basically around noon

2 on the 26th of May, or at least a substantial portion of the population

3 surrendered to the Serbs that day; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct. A large number of people in Kozarac,

5 including those who lived in downtown area, surrendered and started in the

6 direction of Prijedor. At least this is what we learned.

7 Q. Had anybody tried to escape from the area before the balance of

8 the population surrendered?

9 A. Part of people who did not wish to surrender tried to pull out

10 through Mount Kozara and sought refuge there. They wanted to wait and see

11 what would happen next.

12 Q. Were you among the group that surrendered or did you do something

13 else?

14 A. No. With a group of people, I withdrew to Mount Kozara, and I

15 spent that night on Mount Kozara.

16 Q. Did you later hear what happened to the people who did surrender

17 on the 26th of May, where they were taken?

18 A. They were taken to Prijedor-Banja Luka highway at Kozarac. The

19 men were separated from women and children. From what I know, women and

20 children were sent to Trnopolje and the men were sent to either Omarska or

21 Keraterm camps.

22 Q. Now, sir, I understand that the group that you were with, that did

23 not surrender, tried to link up with some others who were trying to mount

24 a resistance group; is that correct?

25 A. Yes. We tried to cross the Kozarac-Mrakovice road. We heard that

Page 1543

1 Captain Cirkin was there with Mr. Medunjanin, who was president of the SDA

2 party at that time, and we wanted to link up with them and see what we

3 would do next.

4 Q. Now, I understand, sir, that in an attempt to try to link up, you

5 did involve yourself in a conflict at one point, and that about 120 of the

6 group in which you were in were captured at that point; is that correct?

7 A. Yes. In our attempt to cross the Kozarac-Mrakovice road, at the

8 point called Zecji Kamen, fire was opened against us by Serb soldiers.

9 Part of the men was able to escape but a group of about 120 was captured

10 and from what I know was taken to a place called Benkovac, and some were

11 killed, from what I have heard, from what I heard later, and the others

12 were taken to Omarska.

13 Q. Taken to Omarska, I see. Now, sir, I understand that you of the

14 remaining group stayed in the area and eventually, to make a long story

15 short, I understand that at one point, a small group of you decided to

16 attempt a counterattack on Kozarac; is that correct?

17 A. Yes. We can call it a counterattack even though, in fact, we

18 linked up with Captain Cirkin and Mr. Medunjanin, and then we talked and

19 thought that we could take Kozarac back. We split up into two or three

20 groups of 50 men. We tried. Some were killed during this attempt, and

21 the others withdrew back to Mount Kozara.

22 Q. In the course of doing that, did you see any of the Serb

23 soldiers?

24 A. Yes, at the village of Brdani, near the mosque in Brdani, there

25 was a tank, and there were Serb soldiers there who at that time were

Page 1544

1 torching houses and looting them, bringing out goods from them, and among

2 them was Zoran Zigic.

3 Q. How did you know Zoran Zigic?

4 A. I knew Zoran Zigic very well. For a while, while he was a taxi

5 driver and while I was going to Prijedor, when I was coming back home from

6 work, he would take me, he would give me rides. And I knew his family

7 too.

8 Q. Did you later see this same Zoran Zigic at Keraterm?

9 A. On a number of occasions.

10 Q. Sir, skipping ahead, I understand that eventually, on the 14th of

11 June, you were in the forests but something happened on that day which led

12 to you being captured or arrested; is that correct?

13 A. I was searching for my family, and I crossed the Prijedor-Banja

14 Luka road, and went to the village of Mujkanovici. There I had my aunt,

15 and I heard from her that one of my brothers was in Trnopolje and that the

16 rest of the family was in a village at my grandfather's. And on that date

17 this was cleansing in this village, this is how they called it. With help

18 of tanks and troops, all men were taken out of their homes and taken away.

19 Q. And were you among them?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And can you tell us, sir, how many men were with you when you were

22 arrested?

23 A. In the house where I was, there was three of us who were arrested,

24 but the number grew -- of the arrestees grew up very fast because there

25 were a lot of men there. So eventually there were 40 or 50 of us. As we

Page 1545

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Page 1546

1 went along, we were joined by other small groups of men and we came to a

2 place called Gutica Put and there we were stopped at Hilmija Nukic's

3 house.

4 Q. And what happened to you there?

5 A. There, as usual, there were -- there was beating and we were

6 forced to sing songs and we were mistreated.

7 Q. Now, where were you taken after you were beaten?

8 A. Then we went in the direction of Prijedor-Banja Luka highway from

9 this Gutica Put place.

10 Q. And before you were taken on the buses -- what happened to you

11 before you were placed on the bus? Were there any other beatings?

12 A. Yes. As we were coming -- when we got on to the Prijedor-Banja

13 Luka highway, we were made to lie down on the road and we were made to

14 take out all the valuables that we had on, lay them aside. Then we went

15 to the village of Kamicani near the highway. At the mosque in Kamicani,

16 there was a checkpoint where we were stopped. And we were beaten there.

17 And at that point a Golf vehicle arrived from the Omarska. It came to a

18 stop, four soldiers came out, one of them hit me and then took a bayonet

19 and with his bayonet went around beating men, and I was at the head of the

20 column. I was taken along with another colleague, and we were taken down

21 a creek and said that they would make an example of me and that they would

22 execute me. Then we were taken in front of a house. There were a lot of

23 stolen goods there, refrigerators and things like that. We were made to

24 load and unload these things. Then somebody from the road said that we

25 should be brought back because the buses were arriving then, and whoever

Page 1547

1 was the last was going to be beaten. So we had to run. And we finally

2 joined up with the rest of them.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm about to finish -- I think I'm about to start

4 paragraph 12, Your Honours. Would this be an appropriate time to stop?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: It would be. It would be. We will take the

6 break now until 2.30.

7 Mr. Arifagic, you are not to discuss your testimony with anybody

8 during the break, and that includes members of the Prosecution team.

9 A. Very well.

10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.01 p.m.

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Page 1548

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld, continue with the

3 examination-in-chief.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Now, Witness, just before the lunch break, you were telling us how

6 just before the buses arrived you and the group you were with had been

7 beaten, and then tell us, did you eventually board those buses, and if so,

8 how did that happen?

9 A. Well, when we boarded the bus, some of the guards escorting us

10 were in the rear part of the bus and others in the front next to the

11 driver. They continued to beat and ill-treat the prisoners or detainees,

12 whatever they called us. And the man who was lying on the floor of the

13 bus - I believe his name is Mujkanovic - he was beaten. And I know

14 another guard was saying, "Let him go. You'll kill him ," but we were

15 all in a heap in the middle of the bus.

16 Q. How was this man being beaten, to your observation?

17 A. They were beating him with -- kicking them with their boots in the

18 head, beating him, standing, putting their feet down on his head.

19 Whatever they had, they simply beat him.

20 Q. Once on the buses, sir, I understand that the buses drove off in

21 the direction of Omarska; is that correct?

22 A. Yes. The buses went on toward Omarska using the highway

23 Prijedor-Banja Luka to the crossroads where the road forks off to

24 Omarska. And the buses stopped two or three times in front of some cafes

25 and there we were made to sing some Chetnik songs, and men who were in

Page 1549

1 those cafes and who were drunk would often come out and beat us. And then

2 we would move on to the next cafe and that was that. And then we

3 proceeded to the camp at Omarska.

4 Q. Did I hear you correctly to say that you stopped at two or three

5 cafes along the route where this same procedure you've just described

6 occurred en route to Omarska?

7 A. That's right, yes.

8 Q. When you got to Omarska, did you stay there?

9 A. No. We stayed in the bus. The bus was closed. They had put on

10 the heating, and we were there. We waited for I don't know how long,

11 perhaps half an hour. Then the driver came back and switched on the

12 engine and proceeded or, rather, we took the same route back from Omarska

13 to Banja Luka-Prijedor highway.

14 Q. Were you given any explanation as to why after driving to Omarska

15 you were now turning around, going the other way?

16 A. I think that it was a guard who directed us, but something was

17 said or, "You're in luck because there is no room in Omarska, so that they

18 will take you somewhere else."

19 Q. And they did, in fact, take you somewhere else, did they not,

20 sir? You drove back towards Keraterm; is that correct?

21 A. Yes. We took the same road back to Banja Luka-Prijedor highway,

22 fetched up in front of the camp at Keraterm or, rather, the then factory

23 Keraterm, and the buses then drove through that gate.

24 Q. Do you remember whether you arrived in daylight or evening hours?

25 A. I think it was sometime in late afternoon, at dusk.

Page 1550

1 Q. Once you got to Keraterm, what happened then, sir?

2 A. They ordered us to get off the buses in groups, that is, going

3 through the door, and in front of the bus, to the side of the bus, we were

4 ordered to lie down on the asphalt and put our hands at the back of our

5 heads or, rather, above our heads.

6 Q. Did anything happen when you did that?

7 A. Yes. Some people had got off before me in a group, in a group

8 that I was with. Same thing as I repeated. Some soldiers would kick us

9 with their boots in the head. Others trampled us, that is, jumping from

10 one man's back to another, and so it went on and on.

11 Q. All right, sir. And how many people were on the buses with you

12 when you arrived?

13 A. I think there were about 50, maybe 60 people on the bus. I don't

14 know, of course. One couldn't count.

15 Q. Now, sir, after the beatings, what were you told to do next?

16 A. They ordered us to head running towards dormitory 2.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, might the witness be shown the

18 photograph booklet Exhibit 2, please.

19 Q. Sir, looking at that booklet of photographs, if you just flip

20 through it very briefly, do you recognise the photographs depicted in this

21 booklet, Exhibits 2A through J? Sorry, I, not J. There's nine of them.

22 A. I do, yes. Yes, I recognise it. It's Keraterm.

23 Q. All right. And if we could just look at photograph number 2B for

24 a moment if you would, sir, and place that on the ELMO.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps Mr. Usher can assist. 2B, yes.

Page 1551

1 Q. Now, is the room where you were told to go, is that shown on

2 photograph 2B as is now depicted on the ELMO, on the video screen? And if

3 so, could you take your pointer, please, and tell us where you went?

4 A. [Indicates].

5 Q. Right. You're pointing to the left side of the photograph. Now,

6 sir, did you, in the course of giving your statement, prepare a diagram to

7 -- from memory of the Keraterm facility?

8 A. I did.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: We have copies of that diagram, please, Your

10 Honour. Might the usher assist and give copies to the court and to my

11 learned friends? My friends, I think, have already got this diagram with

12 the former disclosure package but -- my apologies, Your Honour, this is in

13 English only. We did not have time to get this translated. It has been

14 requested but it hasn't come back.

15 Now, if I can just go through this -- sorry, does the witness have

16 one? Perhaps we can place that on the ELMO, Mr. Usher, when you have the

17 opportunity.

18 Q. First of all, witness, you do recognise this as the diagram that

19 you personally drew, and as translated; is that correct?

20 A. It is.

21 Q. And is it fair to say, sir, that this shows that this building had

22 two floors and the bottom floors that you've marked 1 through 3 were used

23 for housing the prisoners, is that correct? I'm sorry, and 4.

24 A. It is.

25 Q. And this area where you -- between Room 2 and Room 3, it says

Page 1552

1 "storeroom" and "food distributed here." Is that where the food came

2 from?

3 A. No. Food was brought there. Food was not prepared there. It was

4 brought from elsewhere and the inmates sliced the bread and distributed

5 the food, so that room was used to prepare the bread, or rather to slice

6 it and then distribute it, and so the food was distributed in front of

7 that room. There was -- there were no kitchen facilities. No food was

8 prepared there.

9 Q. All right. Now, sir, you've -- do you recall whether or not there

10 were -- on this diagram, you've got in the grassy area in the -- outside

11 Rooms 3 and 4, you've got machine-gun and spotlight. Were those

12 machine-gun nests there at all times or were they there later?

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, on this section of the testimony, I

14 object to him leading. I understand this was not a leading question but

15 just the whole line about this, I would object to leading.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: I understand. I'm merely going to ask the witness

18 -- yes, let me rephrase the question.

19 Q. Looking from left to right on the document, you have three

20 locations where you have put a rectangle with the words "machine-gun." Do

21 you see those three? One in front of Room 1. First of all, do you see

22 that, in front of the grassy area outside of Room 1?

23 A. I do, yes.

24 Q. Was that a permanent placement or was it there only temporarily?

25 A. No, it was always there. It was a sentry post.

Page 1553

1 Q. Then moving to in front of Room 3 near something that you've

2 called a "gatehouse", there is another rectangle just to the right and

3 above the word "gatehouse" called "machine-gun." What can you tell us

4 about whether or not that was a permanent installation or not a permanent

5 installation?

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, object. This is a leading one.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, it isn't. He is simply asking whether it was

8 a permanent institution or not. I don't consider that leading.

9 A. Yes, here where it says "machine-gun," that was permanent, but

10 this square to the right of it, it says, "the machine-gun and searchlight

11 used for the massacre," I saw them after the massacre in Room 3. It was

12 there with a searchlight.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. We will perhaps refer to this diagram from time

14 to time, but those are all the questions I'm going to ask you of now.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Might this be marked as an exhibit in these

16 proceedings?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number 21.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

19 Q. Now, sir, just from your recollection, to get into the camp, was

20 there a fence around the camp? Was there any particular way by which

21 people could enter the camp?

22 A. Yes. There was a gate, rather there was a booth which was

23 formerly used to enter the factory, which then the guards began to use to

24 control the entries and exits, and it was right there next to the entrance

25 into the camp.

Page 1554

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Page 1555

1 Q. To your knowledge, was the entry gate manned by anyone to prevent

2 access or egress?

3 A. Yes. As a rule, most of the guards were there. They sat at the

4 gate, with the exception of those who were at sentry posts or machine-gun

5 nests, but the majority of guards during the day, as far as we could see,

6 were, as a rule, around that booth, around that hut, or inside it.

7 Q. Moving on, if I may, sir, I understand then that you were arrested

8 and taken to Keraterm on the 14th of June, 1992, and you were ultimately

9 released sometime in August, is that correct, of the same year?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And the whole time you were there, do I understand that you were

12 in Room 2?

13 A. I was, yes.

14 Q. Now, sir, are you able to give the Court an estimate about how

15 high the ceiling of Room 2 was?

16 A. Well, I think it was the standard height of a factory hall. I

17 couldn't really say. Perhaps two and a half, three metres, thereabouts.

18 I know when the door was open a truck could enter that hall so that --

19 Q. So it was high enough for a truck to fit inside; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What size of truck?

22 A. Well, what we would call a trailer truck or just an ordinary

23 truck, that is, standard height, 2.2 metres.

24 Q. All right. Now, sir, to your room - let's talk about Room

25 2 - I understand there was an aluminium double door to allow entry into

Page 1556

1 that room; is that correct?

2 A. It is. That door existed in the beginning, and it was usually

3 locked at night. But since it was very hot and stuffy, at times that door

4 was left open at night, but since at night-time visitors often came to the

5 camp, notably Zigic, and it was his custom to enter in a car -- to enter

6 the camp in a car at 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning and walk into a

7 dormitory, and people would start to wake up, and they would start to

8 tremble over them. So they decided to put those bars, those metal bars so

9 that we could get some air and yet be locked at night.

10 Q. So they made some adjustments to the doors by welding in some

11 permanent metal bars; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. Those were metal bars and permanent. However, from the --

13 in the right corner there was another small door which we could also use

14 when it was unlocked.

15 Q. So allow me to perhaps summarise. The effect of that is with

16 these metal doors being left open but the bars in place, you could be

17 locked in, fresh air could come in, but -- and you could see out as well

18 through the bars; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did the same thing happen to Room 1, if you know?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How about Rooms 3 and 4? Do you know whether they had a similar

23 situation?

24 A. I don't remember. I don't think so. I don't think they had it.

25 Q. All right. Now, I understand, sir, that there were a number

Page 1557

1 prisoners in your room, at some point from 250 to 300 people; is that

2 correct?

3 A. It is at one point. As people kept arriving, as new detainees

4 kept arriving, of course the number rose.

5 Q. With you and the 40 some-odd others that joined you then joined

6 men that were already in Room 2?

7 A. Yes, we joined them.

8 Q. All right. And was there a chief of the room when you got there?

9 A. That night when we arrived, we could not know that, but next day,

10 yes, we learned that there was a senior for the room, the foreman.

11 Q. If you know, sir, are you able to tell us the localities where the

12 men in Room 2 were from? In other words, were there particular areas that

13 you could tell that these men were from?

14 A. Yes. In Room 2 were some people from Kozarac, the majority from

15 Puharska, and some people from the town itself, from Prijedor, and a

16 smaller number from villages from Brdo, as they call it, and later on

17 people from Ljubija and villages around Ljubija were also brought in.

18 Q. These first villages that you mentioned to us, were those largely

19 Muslim villages?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the ethnicity of the people in the room that you joined,

22 Room 2, are you able to tell us what their ethnicity was, if you know?

23 A. They were Muslims by and large, and a small number of Croats.

24 Q. Who was appointed the chief of the Room 2? I know I asked you if

25 there was one. You told us you learned the next day. Did you mention his

Page 1558

1 name?

2 A. Yes. His name was Fehim Krupic.

3 Q. Did he remain as the chief of Room 2 for the entire period you

4 were there?

5 A. Almost the whole time. Perhaps ten days before the camp was

6 disbanded. I don't remember exactly. But he was often summoned to go to

7 the gate, to the exit from the camp. And the last time he came, he said

8 they were trying to make him to hand over his house and his property to

9 somebody else and to sign them over to somebody. And the next day he was

10 called out and the explanation was that he was to go for something. I

11 think that he was to go and prepare the ground in the camp of Trnopolje

12 where we were to be moved, but after that, we never saw him, and we do not

13 know what happened to him.

14 Q. Can you tell us, tell the Court, if you would, please, from your

15 knowledge, what happened to the people that joined you in Room 2? Did

16 anything happen to you?

17 A. That night, around 9.00, they asked that all men who had arrived

18 in that last bus, and that was our bus, and they requested that all of us

19 come out.

20 Q. Did you go?

21 A. Yes. I went out together with all the others.

22 Q. Did something happen to you that you can tell the Court about

23 today?

24 A. It did happen. Well, the standard thing. We came out. They

25 ordered us to lie down on the asphalt again, and that row would stretch

Page 1559

1 all along Rooms 1 and 2, and with our hands at the back of our heads, and

2 then they started from the beginning, that is, beatings.

3 As for me personally, the man who beat me on the head and down my

4 back demanded that I admit that I was a Green Beret, but I persisted in

5 denying it, and he beat me until some point, I don't know whether

6 consciously or subconsciously in view of the pain I was suffering, I told

7 him if I were a Green Beret, I wouldn't be there, and then he told me to

8 stand up and go back into the dormitory.

9 Q. Could you see what types of instruments you and your fellow

10 inmates were being beaten with?

11 A. Well, those were mostly baseball bats, truncheons, rifle butts,

12 those rods with the ball at the end. I don't know what you call it,

13 because it was the first time that I saw that contraption.

14 Q. Did something happen to your knee?

15 A. Yes. What happened was that the man who was beating me picked up

16 a knife and then pricked me on the knee, my left arm, three or four

17 fingers. I don't know, because I -- they were all numb. But I was mostly

18 bleeding in the head. I tried to stop that bleeding, but --

19 Q. What, if anything, happened to your fingers?

20 A. I suppose my fingers were broken. What I know today is that my

21 left arm, when I have to hold something in that arm for some time it goes

22 weak and I cannot use it any more. It begins to dysfunction.

23 Q. How many people were involved in the beating of you and your

24 companions?

25 A. I think that there was one guard or more per every detainee, but

Page 1560

1 it was -- it was night-time. It could have been 10.00, maybe 12.00.

2 Q. Could you see who was doing it? Did you recognise anyone, either

3 then or later?

4 A. The man who beat me was, I think -- from what I could see, I think

5 used to work in a kiosk in Kozarac, and his name was Milan. It was dark

6 so -- but whatever, I know that he had a white belt, the military police

7 belt. He was wearing a camouflage uniform, he had a mustache, and he was

8 very, very strong, strongly built, and dark-haired. I believe I could

9 easily recognise his face but --

10 Q. During the course of your time at Keraterm, sir, were you able to

11 determine -- or did you ever see someone identified to you as a person by

12 the name of Kole?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what position, if any, did he have?

15 A. To us, he was a shift commander.

16 Q. And do you know how many shifts there were during the course of

17 your stay?

18 A. From what we knew, three.

19 Q. And what did you see about Kole that led you to the conclusion

20 that he was a shift commander?

21 A. For the most part, that is people who knew him better - I only

22 knew him by sight - the people who knew him were saying that he was

23 considerably better than the other shift commanders, and probably when his

24 shift was on that we would fare better. But as far as my personal

25 encounters with Kole, he asked us to move a truck, and we pushed the truck

Page 1561

1 to the area around Rooms 3 and 4. But people who were on the shift

2 addressed him, and by the way they did so, we thought that he was a shift

3 commander.

4 Q. Did you know him from before the war?

5 A. Yes. I knew him by sight.

6 Q. Would you describe the individual for us?

7 A. Yes. I could describe him. Dark, could be about 175 centimetres

8 tall, dark, tanned complexion.

9 Q. Would you see him often in the camp?

10 A. Yes, very frequently. That is, throughout my stay in the camp,

11 whenever his shift was on, we would see him for the most part.

12 Q. Do you believe that you would recognise this individual if you

13 were to see him again?

14 A. Yes. We know each other well.

15 Q. Would you look around the courtroom today, please, and tell us if

16 he is here, and if so, where he is?

17 A. Yes. He is seated to the right between --

18 Q. I didn't hear the full sentence, but perhaps I could ask you, sir,

19 where are you looking? Would you point and tell us what row this

20 individual is that you're referring to?

21 A. Yes. That is Kole.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. Between the first two police officers.

24 Q. Are you looking from right to left or from left to right, sir?

25 A. He was to the right, next to the window.

Page 1562

1 Q. All right. I'm going to have to do this. If we are looking at

2 the window you're looking at, there are six chairs starting from right to

3 left. Could you count the number of chairs from the window from right to

4 left and tell us which seat the person is occupying?

5 A. Chair number 2.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. For the record, identifies Kole.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

8 MR. RYNEVELD:

9 Q. Sir, you said there were three shifts. Did you know any other

10 shift commanders?

11 A. Yes, the person we called Kajin.

12 Q. And did something happen on the day after your arrest that you

13 recall?

14 A. Yes. I remember the night when I was beaten, the following

15 morning, because I was covered in blood and practically could not move my

16 arm, I thought that I was losing a lot of blood and that I didn't stand a

17 good chance of surviving. Some of the prisoners who were around me told

18 me that the next morning, Kajin would come on duty and that he was a good

19 guy and that I should try to talk to him, and that the next morning,

20 probably some of the inmates would be sent to the hospital in order to be

21 given medical care.

22 Q. And did you in fact address -- we are now going to 22. I'll come

23 back to paragraph 20 in a minute. Did you in fact seek help from Kajin?

24 A. Yes, I did that. That is, the following morning, I think it could

25 have been 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning, it doesn't matter. At any event,

Page 1563

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Page 1564

1 Kajin was about 10 to 15 metres away from Room 1. He was wearing a

2 military trousers with suspenders, and I said that I had heard that some

3 people who were injured would be taken to the hospital to have their

4 injuries treated, and I showed him what had happened to me and I asked if

5 I could be in that group. He asked me, "Who did this to you?" However, I

6 simply shrugged and turned away. He said that he would put me in that

7 group, and he made good on that promise. And unfortunately, in the van

8 taking us to the hospital -- to the hospital that day, Zoran Zigic was

9 also taking a ride.

10 Q. I'm going to come back to your being taken to hospital, sir, but

11 you had dealings with Kajin. Did you know this person called Kajin before

12 the conflict, before your stay at Keraterm?

13 A. Yes. I think we all knew each other by sight. I think we knew

14 each other from the technical school, the middle -- the secondary school.

15 His brother was also a student there and I was one of the students.

16 Q. All right. So you knew him from school days, and did you know his

17 brother?

18 A. Yes. I knew his brother. He was the one who later took me to be

19 questioned.

20 Q. All right. We will get to that in a moment as well. Now, sir, at

21 Keraterm, during the period of your stay from the 14th of June until early

22 August, 1992, did you have -- did you have opportunities to see Kajin on a

23 number of occasions?

24 A. Yes. I saw him every time when his shift was on. That is,

25 throughout my stay there, I did see him.

Page 1565

1 Q. And would you be able to recognise that individual if you were to

2 see him again?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would you look around the courtroom and tell us whether you see

5 him today?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us where he is seated, using the same sort of method

8 as we did earlier?

9 A. He is seated in chair number 4.

10 Q. And just so that we are clear, you're still counting from right to

11 left from the window towards you; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: For the record, identifies Kajin.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

15 MR. RYNEVELD:

16 Q. Now, sir, did you have another conversation -- well, we will get

17 to that in a little bit too. Do you know who the leader of the third

18 shift was?

19 A. In my mind, it was Sikirica, or Sikira as we called him. However,

20 that was my view, but I did not think about it that much.

21 Q. Did you know him before the war?

22 A. Yes, by sight.

23 Q. Where and how did you learn his name?

24 A. I learned his name in the camp.

25 Q. And could you describe the individual for us as you recall him at

Page 1566

1 Keraterm?

2 A. I think he was brown-haired, dark hair, about 165, 170 centimetres

3 tall, and I don't think that he was clean shaven, and he had his hair a

4 little bit, I don't know, unruly, we call it.

5 Q. All right. Do you believe that you would recognise that

6 individual as Sikirica or Sikira if you were to see him again?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you look around the courtroom, please, and tell us --

9 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, my learned friend hasn't laid the

10 ground at all for how often this man has been seen, and I object unless

11 he's going to do that properly.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Fine.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you lay a foundation?

16 MR. RYNEVELD: I shall, Your Honour. I'm sorry, I was trying to

17 move along but my friend is quite correct, and I will.

18 Q. Sir, during your stay at Keraterm, are you able to tell us how

19 often you saw the individual you referred to as Sikirica?

20 A. I saw him fairly frequently. That is, like the others.

21 Q. And you indicated that you knew him before the war; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes, by sight.

24 Q. Under what circumstances and how frequently would you have been

25 able to see him before the war?

Page 1567

1 A. It was a slight acquaintance. It was like seeing people in town

2 and you remember their faces.

3 Q. When you saw him at Keraterm, did you then recognise him as

4 someone you had seen before the war? In other words, by the time you were

5 at Keraterm, did you recognise him already?

6 A. I knew that face.

7 Q. At the time you arrived at Keraterm, you were not able to put a

8 name to the face; is that correct?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You learned the name from other prisoners?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The name you learned from other prisoners, sir, do you recognise

13 that face in the courtroom today?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you tell us if he's here and, if so, where he is?

16 A. Yes. He's in chair number 5.

17 Q. And again for the record, that's from the window, counting right

18 to left; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: For the record, please, identifies the accused

21 Sikirica.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

24 Q. Sir, skipping ahead then, you told us that - and I want to go

25 through this relatively quickly - after speaking to Kajin and getting

Page 1568

1 permission to go to the hospital, is it true that you and six or seven

2 other prisoners were taken to the hospital in Prijedor?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you made reference earlier that, unfortunately, Zoran Zigic

5 was one of your escorts; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know the name of another inmate who was injured who

8 accompanied you and Zoran Zigic to the hospital in Prijedor?

9 A. Yes. Among others was Emsud Bahonjic, Jasmin Colic, and others.

10 Q. And en route to the hospital, is there an incident involving

11 Mr. Zigic and Emsud that you can tell us about?

12 A. Yes. Zigic beat Emsud throughout this time and mistreated him,

13 but the driver who was driving the van tried to take away the weapon from

14 him and to calm him down and prevent him from bothering us.

15 Q. Once at the hospital, did you see anything in relation to Emsud

16 Bahonjic that Mr. Zigic did?

17 A. A physician was examining Emsud, and Zigic said that he was not to

18 do anything there because he was a sniper. He was on a gurney, and he was

19 brought back very quickly. Zigic approached him and put a cross on his

20 forehead, and Emsud, who was half conscious, kept saying that he was not

21 guilty of anything, that his children did nothing, but Zigic kept accusing

22 him that -- of being a sniper and put that cross on his forehead, and I

23 think that that's how he died too.

24 Q. Tell me, sir, while at the hospital, did you overhear any

25 conversation about Emsud requiring an X-ray?

Page 1569

1 A. Yes. They were saying that he needed an X-ray because he probably

2 had these serious internal injuries, but Zigic said that nothing was to be

3 done with him because he had to take him back.

4 Q. To your knowledge, do you know whether Emsud received an X-ray or

5 treatment?

6 A. No. He was brought back to the camp and no medical help was given

7 him.

8 Q. How about you, did you receive any medical help?

9 A. I waited, that is, we were called in one by one. Nurse was there

10 who happened to know my sister-in-law. They worked together. So she

11 quickly asked me about her husband, asked me whether I knew anything, and

12 she said that she would try to help as much as she could. All this was in

13 passing. And she did what we could. She put on pieces of gauze on my

14 head and then she gave me some netting which I pulled over my head. Then

15 she also treated my head and gave me a bandage so that I could bandage my

16 arm myself, and this was all she was able to do in a hurry.

17 Q. Did you see a doctor?

18 A. Yes. The doctor was there standing to the side. He was talking

19 to the other people who were injured. I don't know how much help he

20 provided them, but I know that we were all taken back.

21 Q. Sorry. I phrased my question very badly. Were you personally

22 treated by a doctor?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were your broken fingers set?

25 A. No.

Page 1570

1 Q. How many of you came back to Keraterm after having been taken to

2 the hospital?

3 A. All those who had been -- who had been brought there, that is, who

4 were given a chance to get some treatment, were returned.

5 Q. Was that the same day or did you stay overnight?

6 A. The same day.

7 Q. That includes Emsud Bahonjic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We'll get to Emsud in a minute, sir, I'm not finished. But very,

10 very briefly, and I don't think my friends are going to object to this, is

11 it true, sir, at Keraterm you -- the food rations consisted of two small

12 slices of bread and a bowl of water with perhaps a leaf of cabbage in it?

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: Objection, Your Honour. Objection. Incorrect

14 characterisation and leading. What is "small"? If he's going to lead, we

15 do, but adjectives are for the witness.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps it would be quicker if I have the witness

17 do it rather than me try to lead it.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

19 MR. RYNEVELD:

20 Q. What did you get for food, sir, at Keraterm?

21 A. When we would receive food, and it happened that for a day or two

22 we did not receive any, what they called a small piece -- a small loaf,

23 that was one loaf sliced into very thin slices. It was a slice that I

24 could have eaten in two or three mouthfuls, and I could have eaten it in

25 no time.

Page 1571

1 Q. Other than bread, did you get anything else?

2 A. For the most part it was a leaf of cabbage with hot water.

3 Q. Did you have unlimited time to eat?

4 A. No. This was done in such a way that we would do it as fast as

5 possible and run back to the room.

6 Q. What would happen if you didn't do it as fast as possible?

7 A. It depended on the shift. For the most part, guards would

8 approach certain prisoners. They would ask money of them. They would

9 beat them or they would put a knife against the stomach and ask where the

10 money was, ask if the money was buried somewhere, or if they would beat

11 prisoners, then there would be two or three beatings. So people really

12 looked to eat as quickly as possible and go back to the room.

13 Q. I understand that toilet facilities were very inadequate. Is that

14 correct, sir?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Sir, I'm going to turn now, if I may, to an incident that you

17 recall when prisoners were being called out at night. Can you tell us

18 about that and tell us whose shift was on?

19 A. Inmates were called at night regardless of whose shift was on

20 duty, but most frequently they were taken out during the shifts manned by

21 the Banovic brothers.

22 Q. All right, sir. Do you recall an incident one night when Kole's

23 shift was on?

24 A. Yes. On that occasion -- on that occasion, a large number of

25 prisoners were called out, they were taken out, and then they were

Page 1572

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Page 1573

1 beaten. We could hear moans and screams, and this took a long time. And

2 I heard a voice, I think it was one of the Banovic brothers, he was

3 saying, "Put a jacket over him so that he doesn't scream as much." After

4 it was over, again I think it was Banovic, I think I recognised his voice,

5 he said, "Where were you? You were too late for the beating."

6 MR. PETROVIC: [interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies, the

7 witness said that there was -- that there was the Banovic brothers, and

8 Kondic was also mentioned as being in the shift, and it was not entered

9 into the record. So if I can ask for that correction?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The correction will be made.

11 MR. RYNEVELD:

12 Q. What, from your observation or any other source of information,

13 led you to conclude that the night you're talking about was Kole's shift?

14 A. The shift change was usually done before the nightfall, and from

15 what we knew, that is whose shift would come next, this is how we were

16 able to identify whose shift was on when.

17 Q. And the night that you're talking about, had the shift changed to

18 Kole's shift?

19 A. Yes. They were changing it around 6.00 or 7.00 in the evening,

20 and I think that they had come on duty.

21 Q. You earlier told us, sir, about the frequency of these kinds of

22 nightly beatings. How often would these things happen?

23 A. This happened almost nightly. If it would not happen in Room 2,

24 then it would happen in Room 1 or in another room, but it usually did

25 happen.

Page 1574

1 Q. Would it matter whose shift was on?

2 A. I think that in Kajin's shift, and to a degree Kole's shift, it

3 was less frequent. We thought that when they were on, that we were

4 somewhat safe, but if he weren't -- if he wasn't around, then we would

5 fare the same.

6 Q. You've told us earlier about Emsud Bahonjic, and after you came

7 back from the hospital, did anything further happen to Emsud Bahonjic, to

8 your knowledge?

9 A. I know that Zigic asked that his sniper be brought out. Then he

10 beat him again, and then half an hour later he ordered us to carry him

11 back in. We did. And a couple of days later, he turned for worse. He

12 was breathing heavily. We asked to bring him out to fresh air. We got

13 the permission, but Zigic reappeared a while later, started yelling, and

14 we had to bring him back in.

15 Q. And you told us earlier that Zigic had accused Emsud of being a

16 sniper coming back from the hospital. Is that to whom he was referring

17 when he said, "Bring out my sniper"? Or was it someone else?

18 A. He was referring exclusively to Emsud. Emsud told me that when he

19 came to the Keraterm camp the first time around, that Zigic had approached

20 him, tapped him on the shoulder and said, "You are a sniper. You were

21 killing people," and it was from there on that it all started.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, I have to again

23 comment on the report. He said that the witness said that during Kole's

24 shift and Kajin's shift it was more often, and he then said that when they

25 would leave, that he was not -- that this would not happen, so it was not

Page 1575

1 clear in the sense in which the witness had said it, so I would like it to

2 be fully clarified.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: I can ask a couple more questions to clarify that.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

5 MR. RYNEVELD:

6 Q. Backing up if we can just for a moment, please, sir, to your

7 knowledge, did beatings happen on all three shifts?

8 A. Yes, for the most part.

9 Q. Did I understand you correctly to say that on Kajin's shift, and

10 sometimes Kole's shift, those beatings would be less frequent?

11 A. Yes. They were less frequent. What is probably in dispute is

12 that, for instance, if there was Kajin's shift, if he was physically

13 present there and had control over it, then there wasn't as much beating

14 and mistreatment. However, if he was -- his shift was on and he was not

15 present, it would start immediately.

16 Q. Thank you. Sir, just to finish up about Emsud Bahonjic, before we

17 were interrupted, are you aware that Mr. Bahonjic ultimately died?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At the camp?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Within two or three days of coming out of the hospital?

22 A. Somewhere around there, two, three, four days. In any event, he

23 died.

24 Q. Before he died, did he tell you anything that Zigic had said to

25 him about being a sniper?

Page 1576

1 A. Yes. He told him that Zigic, at the very entrance to the camp,

2 had approached him and told him that he had been a sniper and he was

3 killing innocent Serbian people, and from that day on, Zigic started

4 beating him. Frequently Duca also took part in these beatings. And that

5 was the reason why he was being beaten all the time.

6 Q. Did he ever admit to being a sniper in your presence?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Sir, during the course of your stay at Keraterm, you've made

9 reference in earlier testimony to Banovic. Did you know anyone by the

10 name of Banovic at the camp?

11 A. Yes, I knew two brothers, twins.

12 Q. Did they look alike?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was there any way to distinguish between the two of them?

15 A. Yes, yes, one could.

16 Q. How?

17 A. One could tell them apart because one of them -- and we told them

18 apart because one of them, I think, was better, much better than the other

19 one, whom we called Cupo. First, in terms of his sections [phoen], Cupo,

20 we called because he had long hair, hair down to his shoulders. Whenever

21 he was in the camp, or did rounds of the camp, he often carried a baseball

22 bat in his hands, and that is how we could tell them apart.

23 Q. Does the word "Cupo" mean something in the Bosnian language?

24 A. Well, yes. It means a man with a lot of hair, with long hair,

25 somebody who has long hair.

Page 1577

1 Q. So the nickname Cupo was referred to by his description, then?

2 A. Yes, that was his nickname. That's how we called him.

3 Q. I'd like you to turn your mind to an incident about the 1st of

4 July, 1992, in the late evening hours. Do you remember whether Cupo did

5 something to you or to your inmate companions?

6 A. On the 1st of July, in the evening of the 1st of July?

7 Q. Yes, that's what I'm referring to, sir. Or approximately that

8 date.

9 A. That day, that day, was the first time that we were given slightly

10 better food. I think it was beans that we had for lunch, even though it

11 happened at dusk. So we were coming out to get this food. However, the

12 food distributed in a disastrous way. That is Kondic, Cupo, and others

13 came up and began to beat and ill-treat the inmates. Kondic was the one

14 who beat me most of all of them or -- I almost fainted when he hit me.

15 Cupo and others were helping them in that, so I carried this bowl with

16 food and it all spilled, and he beat me again and forced me to pick it all

17 up, to wash up the vessel, and return it. And I somehow managed to get

18 back into a dormitory and there I passed out.

19 Q. I'm referring now specifically to something that happened with

20 Cupo Banovic.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, does he know whose shift that was?

22 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry.

23 Q. Do you happen to know whose shift was on in relation to the

24 previous incident you told us about, about when the beans were being

25 distributed and Kondic and I can't remember who else you said was there?

Page 1578

1 A. I am not quite sure, but I know that Kondic, Banovic, Sahadzija

2 were on that shift.

3 Q. "That shift." Were you able to assign that shift to a particular

4 shift leader or are you not able to do so?

5 MR. VUCICEVIC: Objection. Asked and answered.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think what he's saying is that he -- the

7 witness says that he knows that Kondic, Banovic were on that shift. So

8 perhaps --

9 MR. RYNEVELD: I'll rephrase it.

10 Q. Do you know whose shift that shift was?

11 A. No. All I do know is who beat me, and it was Kondic, Banovic. So

12 that means they were on duty.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you've already made reference to an incident

14 where you heard Cupo say something about taking a prisoner's jacket and

15 putting it in his mouth. Do you remember any more details about that

16 particular incident?

17 A. Yes. It happened one night when they had taken inmates out to

18 beat them. And Cupo was saying -- what I overheard was, "Put a jacket

19 over his mouth so that he stops hollering."

20 Q. Now, sir, do you know a couple of policemen, one by the name of

21 Fikret and one by the name of Drago?

22 A. Indeed. They were brought to the camp. They arrived in police

23 uniforms with army boots. They came to dormitory 2, and they told us that

24 they had signed a document of loyalty to the Republika Srpska, and after

25 the takeover of power, they had been working throughout since the takeover

Page 1579

1 of power, but that that day, they demoted them or, rather, confiscated

2 their weapon, their licence, and everything else that the police are

3 issued with and were brought to the camp.

4 Q. Sorry, I may have asked you, but do you recall what date it was

5 that they came to the camp or are you unable to give us a date?

6 A. No, I don't remember it.

7 Q. Do you know what happened to those people?

8 A. They were taken out during the night. Drago did not come back;

9 Fikret did. And after that, I think he was taken to a hospital or

10 something, but what Fikret told us is that they beat them with some iron

11 chains, baseball bats, metal rods and things, and he said that Drago had

12 succumbed, that he was killed. He somehow managed to get back alive,

13 but --

14 Q. Your father ended up becoming an inmate at Keraterm as well; is

15 that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell us about that.

18 A. My father was brought together with a group of men who had been

19 rounded up in a village, Duracci, that is, he was hiding there with my

20 mother and my wife, because my mother comes from that village. That is

21 where she was born, and I believe it was the last Muslim village bordering

22 on Donji Orlovci which had not been ethnically cleansed, but when the turn

23 of that last village came up, he was rounded up with a number of other

24 villagers. A number of those villagers were either killed or something.

25 They are missing to this day. At any rate, I mean that they were taken

Page 1580

1 aside, to a side and fire -- gunfire was heard and they're missing. But

2 be that as it may, my father was not in that group. He was brought to

3 Keraterm, and the next morning I found him in Room 3.

4 Q. And what shape was he in when you saw him?

5 A. He had been badly beaten. His nose was broken. He had difficulty

6 breathing. He told me that there was a Serb soldier who beat him

7 particularly badly as he went off the bus, that is, one was beating him on

8 the back, forcing him to get off the bus, and the other one met him

9 outside. Why? Because that soldier was saying that in 1945 he had killed

10 his father Radovan on Kozara, even though in 1945 my father was only 10.

11 Q. And at the time your father came to the camp, is my math correct,

12 sir, he was 62?

13 A. Yes. He was born in 1930 so that he was 62.

14 Q. Did your father stay in the camp very long?

15 A. He stayed in for about a fortnight. Then all those over 60 were

16 called out, and from what we were told was that they would be transferred

17 to the camp at Trnopolje. Fortunately, it did happen. Indeed, they were

18 taking over there and --

19 Q. And your father arrived in early July; is that correct? 1st or

20 2nd of July, to the best of your recollection?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was your father ever interrogated, to your knowledge?

23 A. No. As he was over 60, men of that age were not -- at least they

24 were not normally interrogated.

25 Q. Were you interrogated?

Page 1581

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Page 1582

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When?

3 A. I cannot recall the exact date. I think it was around the 5th or

4 the 6th of July, beginning of July at any rate. And Kajin's brother came

5 to take me for interrogation. He brought me into a room, and he just

6 stayed behind, standing by the door.

7 Q. You've made reference to Kajin's brother earlier in your testimony

8 in that you knew him before the war. Did you see him at Keraterm on

9 occasions other than the day that he took you for interrogation?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How often would you see him at the camp and what position, if any,

12 did he hold?

13 A. I don't think he held any position in the camp. I usually saw him

14 whenever he was on duty. I mean when his shift was on duty. I can't say

15 what went on at night-time, but I do not think that this lad ever harmed

16 anyone. At least of us, the witnesses, whenever we communicated what we

17 could find out was -- what we learned from talking was that nobody was

18 harmed by him.

19 Q. Perhaps I phrased it badly, sir, but you say "whenever he was on

20 duty." When he was on duty, what did he do or what did he appear to be

21 doing?

22 A. No. I think he was just a guard. Perhaps he was -- that day

23 perhaps he was one the guards. He called me out, escorted me to the

24 interrogation room, and took me back to the dormitory. Whether he had any

25 special duty, I wouldn't know.

Page 1583

1 Q. Do you know whose shift he was on?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Now, sir, I'd like you to now turn your mind to the 20th of July,

4 early afternoon, an incident where you were standing in line to get your

5 lunch. Something happened that day, and tell us what you can recall and

6 whose shift was on.

7 A. That day, lunch was distributed, that is, lunch as far as we could

8 see. It seemed much better than before that, that is, more beans were

9 poured into those bowls, but after that they began to torture and beat

10 prisoners, and I've already pointed it out. I was mostly beaten by Kondic

11 and by Cupo Banovic. Prisoners simply had no time, were given no chance

12 to consume that food. It simply fell out of my hands, and they again beat

13 me, forcing me to pick it all up and put it back into the bowl, wash it,

14 and go back to the dormitory.

15 MR. VUCICEVIC: The witness has testified about it, the whole

16 thing. That was couple of questions and a couple of answers. I think the

17 whole line of questioning is a repetition here, so I object to it.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: The 20th of July?

19 MR. RYNEVELD: I hadn't referred the witness to the 20th of July,

20 before. I referred him to -- I think the 1st of July I referred to him.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the 1st of July. This is new material. Go

22 ahead.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

24 Q. Do you know whose shift was on on the 20th of July, sir, the

25 incident that you've just told us about?

Page 1584

1 A. I think it was Kole's shift. In any event, the guards were

2 Sahadzija, Banovics, Kondic.

3 Q. And those guards, did you associate them with any particular

4 shift?

5 A. Well, we associated guards with the shift leaders. That is, we

6 more or less knew --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, the witness

9 mentioned Sahadjia, and his name does not figure in the transcript.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: That correction should be made.

11 MR. RYNEVELD:

12 Q. I'm sorry, you didn't finish your answer. Maybe you did. I asked

13 you those guards what you referred to, did you associate them in any

14 particular shift, and you said, "We associated guards with the shift

15 leaders," and then we were interrupted. Do you remember what shift

16 leaders you associated those particular guards with?

17 A. We usually -- I think that these guards were on Kole's shift.

18 That is what I think.

19 Q. This Sahadzija that you mentioned earlier, sir, did you see him

20 doing something while they was going on?

21 A. Yes. We knew him in the camp because he seized watches from all

22 inmates who had watches. He approached an inmate and demanded from him.

23 He took out the knife, began to prick him in the stomach, asking for money

24 or something. And that is what we called him, Sahadzija, watch man,

25 because he always looked for inmates' watches.

Page 1585

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, we are approaching ten minutes to

2 4.00, when we will take a break.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. And I hope to finish this witness in the

4 not-too-distant future.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Arifagic, we will now take a break

6 until ten minutes after 4.00. During the break, you're reminded not to

7 discuss your evidence with anybody, including members of the Prosecution

8 team.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld?

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Now, witness, I'd like you to turn to an event, if you would,

14 please, when -- I understand on the 21st of July, 1992, or thereabouts,

15 you're aware that new buses of prisoners came to Keraterm and were placed

16 in Room 3; is that correct?

17 A. No. The previous day, I think we were ordered to make room in

18 Room 2. The people who were in Room 3 until then were then transferred.

19 Part of them were transferred to Room 2 to -- one part to Room 1, one part

20 to Room 4, and that Room 3 was cleared up, cleared for the arrival of

21 people who were brought in that day.

22 Q. All right. And eventually, after Room 3 was cleared out in the

23 way you've described, buses of new people arrived and they were placed in

24 Room 3; is that fair to say, sir?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 1586

1 Q. And now, were these people coming in buses only or were there any

2 that came in by truck?

3 A. For the most part, they were brought in by buses but a small part

4 was also brought in by truck.

5 Q. Can you say anything about the use of that truck in regard to

6 prisoners?

7 A. It would happen sometimes that the prisoners were brought in

8 directly by truck and they would be registered or something and then they

9 would be loaded up back in on the truck. They would have to lie down. Up

10 on the truck was a man with a rifle, and they would be taken back.

11 Sometimes these trucks would come back at nightfall. We would then be

12 asked to wash it because there was blood on it. And the next day the

13 whole thing would be repeated again.

14 Q. What happened to the people that arrived in Keraterm and were

15 placed in Room 3? Were they allowed to mingle with the balance of the

16 Keraterm inmate population?

17 A. I think that the contact was established on the first day, that is

18 when they were first put in Room 3. After that they would not be allowed

19 to mingle with us, and we were also ordered to stay in our own rooms and

20 not to have any contact with Room 3.

21 Q. Did you know any of the people who were placed in Room 3 after it

22 had been emptied out?

23 A. Yes. I knew some. The majority of these people were from some --

24 from an area near Prijedor that we called Brdo, from the villages around

25 there, and I knew a person called Dzevad Ejupovic, who worked on the same

Page 1587

1 construction with me. Jasim Causevic and Enver Causevic.

2 Q. And were you told by them, or some of them, how many people were

3 placed into Room 3?

4 A. They told me that the room was very small, that it was

5 overcrowded, that they did not have standing room, let alone sitting room,

6 that there were 350 or 400 in there, I don't know exactly.

7 Q. Sir, you're aware that sometime on one occasion, an incident

8 happened that's referred to as the Room 3 massacre. You're aware of that,

9 are you, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'd like you to turn your mind to the afternoon leading up to that

12 evening and tell us what you can recall.

13 A. What I recall is that we had been ordered to go to our rooms and

14 to stay locked in, and we were told that we could not go out. At dusk

15 when the night had fallen, some strange sound could be heard. We could

16 feel some vehicles moving, some voices and noises, and there was some

17 commotion around the camp.

18 Q. What happened next, sir?

19 A. After that, I think it was about 10.00 or 11.00 at night, again

20 some trucks started and people started arriving in the camp and we were

21 completely locked up from outside. We heard an order telling us to lie

22 down, not to raise our heads, not to move. From the direction of Room

23 number 3 one could hear bursts of fire.

24 Q. Do you know whose shift was on duty that night?

25 A. Kole's.

Page 1588

1 Q. How do you know that?

2 A. The shift was changed around 7.00 p.m., so we knew that it was his

3 shift.

4 Q. Do you know -- did you see any particular guards on duty that

5 night that you associated with Kole's shift?

6 A. Yes. I saw a guard, and I think that I had also seen him when the

7 shift was changing and we were ordered -- when we had received that order.

8 Q. I'm sorry, I have to ask you to be specific. When you say "him,"

9 to whom are you referring, you had seen "him"?

10 A. I am referring to Kole. I saw him entering the camp when his

11 shift was coming on duty.

12 Q. You said earlier in evidence hearing shooting. Tell us about

13 that.

14 A. The fire lasted 15, 20 minutes, maybe half an hour. And after

15 that, it quieted down, but what I do -- what I remember, though, while we

16 were lying down, the silence was resounding in our room because, from the

17 -- from Room 3, we could hear moans and screams, and what I remember was

18 a voice, somebody saying, "Don't touch Rooms 1 and 2." After that, there

19 was quiet, but then the fire again started in about an hour or two.

20 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, objection to the translation. The

21 witness has said in Bosnian, "Ne dirajte mi sobe 1 i 2," and it doesn't

22 reflect exactly what the witness said.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps I could ask the question again.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

25 MR. RYNEVELD:

Page 1589

1 Q. Sir, to the best of your recollection, do you recall what was said

2 by this voice that you overheard?

3 A. From what I heard, this voice was saying, "Don't even attempt to

4 touch the Rooms 1 and 2," to me, and I think that he was referring to --

5 when he was saying "touch," don't shoot.

6 Q. Do you know whose voice that was?

7 A. I cannot assert that. I think that it was Kole's, but I cannot

8 assert that because I did not see.

9 Q. How long did the second round of shooting last?

10 A. I think that it also lasted about 15 to 20 minutes, up to half an

11 hour, and at that point it was difficult to ascertain the time, how long

12 it all lasted.

13 Q. Did you hear any other conversation or did you hear any other

14 questions being asked by anyone?

15 A. No, I did not hear that, because the position in which I was in in

16 Room 2, I was a bit farther away from the door, and what I could hear,

17 though, was quite clear. It was not to touch Rooms 1 and 2.

18 Q. I understand that, sir. I'm taking you to a different point.

19 After that I understand that there is a second burst of gunfire, and could

20 you tell, sir, whether anyone else asked any other questions after the

21 second burst of gunfire?

22 A. No. After that everything was quiet. We stayed in the rooms

23 throughout the night and nothing else happened that night.

24 Q. Thank you. The following morning, sir, did you find out what had

25 occurred during the shooting incidents you overheard?

Page 1590

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Page 1591

1 A. The following morning what came to us was a word that many men in

2 Room 3 had been killed, but we were not allowed to go out. I think that

3 the room leader came and asked for volunteers, but we were afraid that the

4 volunteers were being asked to probably go out and load up the dead

5 bodies.

6 Q. Do you know if anyone from your room did volunteer?

7 A. I think that they did, but I don't know who it was.

8 Q. What did you see happening?

9 A. During that day a large truck appeared and the men who went out to

10 load up the dead bodies. What I could see when the truck was leaving the

11 perimeter, it was covered with a canopy and it was leaving a trail of

12 blood. Then a fire vehicle arrived, that is, vehicles that we used for

13 fire-fighting in Prijedor, and I think that the same men who had loaded up

14 the bodies were also washing down the asphalt area in front of Room 3.

15 Q. Did you later speak to a Jasim Causevic who told you what he did?

16 A. Yes. I talked to him. He was my brother-in-law's brother, and he

17 was one of those who had volunteered and who had loaded up the dead

18 bodies. What he told me was that about 99 to 100 men had been killed,

19 that he had loaded them up in this trailer truck, that they were stacking

20 them up four bodies high, and that the bodies were taken out of the camp.

21 Q. Sir, did you know a Simo Drljaca before the war?

22 A. That name was well known in Prijedor. He was a functionary with

23 the SUP, and I didn't know him.

24 Q. And just so that I'm clear, the SUP, that's S-U-P, is that the

25 initials for some organisation?

Page 1592

1 A. Yes. That's an acronym for the Secretariat of the Interior or the

2 police station in Prijedor.

3 Q. So the SUP were in charge of the police; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And do you know what Mr. Drljaca's position was -- I'm sorry, you

6 may have said that. Do you know what his position was in relation to the

7 SUP? If I'm asking you to repeat yourself, I apologise. I just didn't

8 hear it.

9 A. I think that after the takeover of the power of the SDS in

10 Prijedor, Simo Drljaca was the commander of SUP or the commander of the

11 police station in Prijedor, as we used to say.

12 Q. Did you see him in the camp after the incident that I'm going to

13 refer to as the massacre?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell us about this and whether he was alone and how you saw him

16 and when.

17 A. He arrived at the camp after the massacre. He was wearing a blue

18 camouflage uniform, and it was wartime police uniform. He was escorted by

19 certain men whom I did not know, but I did know him. What we were told

20 was that this would not repeat itself, that this had been a mistake, and

21 that we would be better protected.

22 Q. Did you see him in the presence of any other dignitaries?

23 A. I think that accompanying him was Sikirica, but I cannot assert

24 that. I think that he was.

25 Q. Was it just the two of them, the person you think may have been

Page 1593

1 Sikirica and Drljaca, or were there yet other people with them?

2 A. No. There were other persons wearing military uniforms but whom I

3 did not know.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, just so that I'm clear, you said it was

5 after the massacre. Was it the day following the massacre, like

6 immediately after the massacre?

7 A. No. After the first massacre, the next day there was another

8 massacre in the camp. I think that about 40 people were killed on that

9 occasion, and after the second massacre, Simo Drljaca came to the camp.

10 Q. All right, sir. Now, you've told us about your conversation with

11 Jasim Causevic. Was there a point in time when you were able to get out

12 and look at Room 3?

13 A. Yes. I think it was a day or two after the second massacre. The

14 next day after the massacre, the washing took place again and all the

15 rest, and then we had an opportunity to come out and communicate with

16 Room 3. I went to the lavatory, and after that I just took a peep in

17 Room 3.

18 Q. And were you able to look around the grounds? Did you see any

19 additional machine-gun placements that had not been there before?

20 A. Well, the very machine-gun nest that I already mentioned that I

21 saw being placed before that massacre, it was that machine-gun nest which

22 was opposite Room 3, across the path. There was a table with a

23 machine-gun 84, as we call it, and to the right of this machine-gun nest,

24 facing Room 3, there was a searchlight.

25 Q. And when was that additional machine-gun nest and a searchlight

Page 1594

1 placed?

2 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, objection to this question because

3 the witness has testified already that he had seen them after the

4 massacre, in the morning, and now he has testified about the second time,

5 and the Prosecutor is going third time about it when witness said that he

6 has been out of the room the following day. So it's asked and answered,

7 Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think the question is permissible.

9 Just confine your question to the additional machine-gun nest.

10 MR. RYNEVELD:

11 Q. Do you understand my question, sir? When did you first notice the

12 searchlight and that machine-gun placement?

13 A. When we first had the opportunity to come out after the massacre,

14 it was there then. Before the massacre in Room 3, that machine-gun and

15 that searchlight were not there because it was not one of the permanent

16 sentry posts or machine-gun nests, as we called them.

17 Q. All right, sir. You've told us there was a second massacre the

18 following day, and can you briefly tell us what you can recall about

19 that?

20 A. Well, the same thing repeated about 10.00 or 11.00 in the

21 evening. The gunfire could be heard for about 15 or 20 minutes, and what

22 I could hear was a voice saying, "What are we going to do? There are

23 still some who are alive." And then one could hear individual shots. I

24 do not know why I started counting them, and I counted 43 shots.

25 Q. All right, sir. Now, the morning after what we would call the

Page 1595

1 second massacre, I understand that bodies were taken away. Did you see

2 anyone present when that happened?

3 A. Well, once again, those men who were called out loaded those

4 bodies and then I think a truck, Zastava 640, a smallish truck, arrived,

5 and what I could see, men who were loading those bodies were also put in

6 that truck at the time we were leaving the camp. Before that, they were

7 called out. And those who were considered sick or injured, they were also

8 loaded on to that truck because they were told, "We are taking you for

9 treatment."

10 Q. Did you see who was present during the loading of that second

11 truck on the second day?

12 A. No. We could not see it then, because we were not allowed to

13 leave the rooms.

14 Q. You told us earlier that one of the people who had loaded the

15 bodies the first night was someone you had spoken to by the name of Yasmin

16 Causevic; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. To your knowledge, was he one of the ones who was also involved in

19 the loading of the bodies after the second shooting incident?

20 A. I think so.

21 Q. Did you see him again after the truck left with the second load of

22 bodies?

23 A. I saw him at that time when that truck was leaving, that is as it

24 went past Room 2 and was heading for the gate. He was sitting to the

25 right, I saw him sitting in that truck, and they moved towards the exit

Page 1596

1 from the camp.

2 Q. Have you seen him since that date?

3 A. No, never again.

4 Q. Now, sir, you've told us earlier that -- no, let me rephrase

5 that. Was there an incident, sir, that the person you identified as Kajin

6 came to the inmates of your room and had a conversation with you about

7 anything?

8 A. Yes. I think it was after the first night of massacre, Kajin came

9 to the front of our room and took the bars in -- and put his hands around

10 the bars that had been made there. I think he had a pistol in his hand

11 and was hitting the bars with it. And one could see from his voice that

12 he was drunk. What he was saying, what he was explaining to us, was that

13 he was the one who requested that Rooms 1 and 2 be let alone, that he was

14 very sorry that all that had happened, that in the massacre he had lost

15 very many of his friends, and what was happening to us at present, that we

16 were paying for Kozara in 1941, that in principle he disagreed with the

17 SDS policy, that he was for bringing to justice the man who was guilty and

18 bringing whoever was guilty before a firing squad, but that he was

19 definitely against people being tortured and beaten. Perhaps it sounds

20 cynical, but I liked that at that moment, that there was somebody who

21 perhaps believed that man who was found responsible should be judged and

22 sentenced, but that people shouldn't be tortured and harmed, and I liked

23 that. And when I talked to other inmates, I believe that many share this

24 opinion, even though people still lost lives but nevertheless --

25 Q. What was Kajin's condition, from your estimation, at that time?

Page 1597

1 A. I suppose in a very bad depression because I think that after

2 that, one of the guards came and he called out to him -- or rather they

3 told him to move away from the dormitory and go to the exit from --

4 through the gate to get out. I think he was feeling very bad but he knows

5 best.

6 Q. Sir, you've told us about Zoran Zigic, and did you know someone

7 named Duca?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did something happen during your stay at Keraterm involving Zigic

10 and Duca? In specific I'm referring to an incident with brothers

11 Jakupovic.

12 A. Yes, it did happen. When I arrived in the camp, there were two

13 brothers, Zijad and Ilijaz Jakupovic whom I knew really well. We were

14 even related. I think it was on the first or the second day, I'm not

15 sure, but Duca and Zigic came and requested that the two guys come out --

16 or rather they were looking for Jakupovics who had raped a Serb girl. So

17 they brought them out and beat them right at the exit from Room 2. And to

18 the right there was a truck, and since Duca was very strong, he was

19 hitting Ilijaz against the truck requesting that he confess to that deed,

20 and at some point Ilijaz said that he may kill him but he is not going to

21 confess it because he had not done that.

22 Q. So you witnessed these people being beaten, sir; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, I saw that. One could see it because it was happening in

24 front of Room 2 and when those men came inside, their faces -- I think

25 they could not really see where they were. All one would see was just

Page 1598

1 blue blotches. Their faces looked like pulp. You couldn't recognise eyes

2 or nose or anything. Their faces were all swollen with blood.

3 Q. All right, sir. I understand, sir, there came a time in early

4 August that you were actually transferred from Keraterm to Trnopolje; is

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And if I can just summarise, I understand that the guards told you

8 that names would be called and you were going to be loaded on to buses; is

9 that right?

10 A. Yes, the explanation was the following. All those who are called

11 out are to go out and board buses, and after that, buses will come to

12 dormitories, first to dormitory 1, without any callout, inmates can get

13 out, and when the dormitory 1 is empty, then it will move on to dormitory

14 2, and so on and so forth.

15 Q. And I understand that ultimately the prisoners got on buses and

16 you were taken to Keraterm; is that also correct?

17 A. I was transferred to Trnopolje.

18 Q. Sorry, what did I say? Keraterm? No, sorry. You were taken from

19 Keraterm put on buses and taken to Trnopolje; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Sorry, that's my fault. Once you got to Trnopolje, sir, did you

22 see Zoran Zigic again?

23 A. Yes. As soon as I arrived there, we were put in -- on a lawn, on

24 a meadow in front of the cultural centre in Trnopolje, and to the right or

25 to the left of us, depending on where you looked from, there was a wire

Page 1599

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Page 1600

1 fence, and we were told that we were allowed to be in that area but that

2 we were not to mix with other inmates, and so, since we had barely

3 arrived, were looking at this grass, where to lie down, because the night

4 was falling. And at that moment, Zoran Zigic came through the camp

5 entrance and started looking for his kum, for his best man, and this one

6 called back to him and began to beat him with his boots and with

7 whatever. He beat him up badly. And then the -- whatever, either the

8 shift leader or somebody, I don't know, who took Zigic out and promised us

9 that that would never happen again.

10 Q. This is the same Zoran Zigic that was at Keraterm that came to

11 Trnopolje and beat a prisoner, to your knowledge?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, sir, I understand you stayed at Trnopolje until the 1st of

14 October and before leaving the camp, you had to sign a document of some

15 sort. What was that and tell us what that was for?

16 A. As we were explained, all of us, the inmates who were to be

17 registered by the International Red Cross, had to apply for emigration,

18 and after we signed those applications, we were issued the dispositions of

19 the then authorities in Prijedor, that pursuant to Article such and such

20 that we were being authorised to emigrate, to move out of the municipality

21 of Prijedor.

22 Q. And did you sign such a document?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what did this document say?

25 A. That document said, "At the request of Jusuf Arifagic who applied

Page 1601

1 to such-and-such on such-and-such a date for permission to leave the

2 territory of the municipality Prijedor within so many days," something

3 like that, and after that, we were issued that authorisation. We were

4 registered, boarded buses, and --

5 Q. Was there any mention made of your property and what would happen

6 to it?

7 A. No. Nobody raised that.

8 Q. All right. Now, sir, shortly after you got to Trnopolje, I

9 understand that a video crew came and took a video of the prisoners from

10 Keraterm that had arrive at Trnopolje; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Sir, during your stay at Keraterm, can you tell the Court what

13 happened, if anything, to your body weight as a result of your stay

14 there?

15 A. I think I lost about 27 or 8 kilogrammes. What I remember well is

16 that when I arrived in Trnopolje, we, and I've already said that, we were

17 ordered not to mix with other inmates in the Trnopolje camp, that

18 supposedly they would be moved over to Keraterm to be interrogated, that

19 we had already done our bit. And I was in such a state that I couldn't

20 even pronounce some letters, S or Z and other.

21 I know that this wire fence which was around, that people in

22 Trnopolje had more food than we did. I remember that. And they tried to

23 pass on some bread to us, or at times they would throw over that fence

24 perhaps half a kilogramme or a loaf of bread, and there would be a huge

25 throng, a huge crowd of men who went for that -- for that bread and would

Page 1602

1 end up with a handful of dust because that would be it.

2 Afterwards, when we came in touch with those people, they were

3 explained that they were not to communicate with us because we were

4 extremists and that we would be all liquidated, as likely as not, and that

5 it was better for them to keep away from us.

6 Q. Now, sir, I understand that you have seen a copy of the video that

7 was taken of you and your fellow inmates from Keraterm at Trnopolje, and

8 you can see yourself on that video; is that correct? You've seen that?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: With the assistance of the AV, I'd like to play a

11 90-second clip at this point.

12 Q. And you can tell us, sir, if you recognise the people from

13 Keraterm there and where, if anywhere, you are.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: It's only 90 seconds, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

18 Q. Now, is that Trnopolje?

19 A. Yes. That is Trnopolje?

20 Q. Are you've seen this before?

21 A. Yes. I am one of those.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Could you back up a couple of frames, please,

23 Mr. AV. Stop.

24 Q. Do you see yourself in the photograph?

25 A. I do. I do.

Page 1603

1 Q. Can you take the pointer, please, and point out where you are in

2 this clip?

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. It's on the video. Yes. Okay. I'm sorry. I guess we really

5 can't point out on the video. Perhaps you could describe to the Court,

6 from right to left, if you are visible, in fact, and where you are.

7 A. Yes. I'm in the upper right corner, in the upper right corner. I

8 have a beard. In front of me in Fikret Avdic, another Keraterm inmate,

9 and I am to the right, to the right in the upper right corner. All you

10 can see is my head and hair.

11 Q. Would it be safe to say that you are the tallest individual

12 visible from right to left almost immediately under the ICTY emblem?

13 A. Yes. You could say so, yes.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm trying to locate for Your Honours where you

15 are.

16 A. That's right, yes.

17 MR. RYNEVELD:

18 Q. Now, your body is not visible but your head is; correct?

19 A. There are two men behind me, behind, who are taller than the rest,

20 and I'm the one to the right.

21 Q. Yes. Thank you.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Just let the video quickly scan through, please.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. RYNEVELD:

25 Q. And tell the Court from looking here, please, whether or not you

Page 1604

1 can tell how many of these people were from Keraterm before they came

2 here. Do you know this individual that's shown now?

3 A. Yes. All these men here are from Keraterm more or less. They

4 could have -- because we were always separated from other Trnopolje

5 inmates. So if there is somebody here from the Trnopolje camp, then it's

6 perhaps 1 per cent or maybe 2 who come to bring us some food. All the

7 others are the camp inmates who had been transferred there from Keraterm a

8 day before this tape was made.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that video be marked in these proceedings,

11 please?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Number?

13 MR. RYNEVELD: I think we're up to 22, if I'm not mistaken. 22?

14 Thank you.

15 Very briefly, I think I can finish this witness in the next five

16 minutes. One last thing.

17 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I want to raise a matter. I've

18 already expressed some concerns to my learned friend about the exercise

19 that he's going to do, and I'd like to develop those a little bit. He's

20 going to seek to deal with the witness with a large number of names listed

21 in a book. There is information given in the book about the disappearance

22 or death of the people listed in there. It is not obvious from the book

23 what the provenance of that information is. The danger, in my submission,

24 is that the witness, in looking at the book, may give evidence which he

25 derives from the book whose accuracy and reliability are unknown factors

Page 1605

1 rather than giving either evidence of his own knowledge or that his

2 information comes form someone upon whom you can assert he relies and

3 considers to be an accurate reporter of events. That's the first problem

4 that I have with this exercise.

5 The second problem, in my submission, is this: I suspect that the

6 list of names comes from "the armed conflict." That, of course, lasts a

7 considerably longer period than the indictment period, and I object to

8 information being given in evidence which falls outside the indictment

9 period or cannot be shown to fall within it, and in effect, I'm objecting

10 to the relevance and probative value of that evidence unless it can be

11 clearly demonstrated.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, if I may respond. As indicated at paragraph

14 50, that is book that is -- I propose to show to the witness which has --

15 he has marked and with green tabs. We also have copies of the members of

16 his family with which he is personally familiar did not survive the

17 conflict. In other words, this is in the opstina Prijedor, that there are

18 some 34 members of his family, and when you look at the document for each

19 of the tabs, there is a photograph of the individual and a date -- a date

20 when they either died or went missing or were exhumed, but the witness'

21 personal knowledge, of course, is when the last time this person has been

22 seen.

23 Now, it's a matter of weight and not admissibility, we would

24 submit, in terms of what the witness can say about this information. He

25 knows that these are members of his extended family. He knows when they

Page 1606

1 disappeared. This book simply provides the photographs and the details of

2 the person, but he can certainly be cross-examined about how he knows

3 whether these people died during the period of indictment or not. That,

4 with the greatest of respect, is not the issue. It just shows that for

5 the wider -- for the wider concern that we have about what happened to the

6 people in Prijedor, we have one family represented that he can actually

7 put names to and tell us what happened to those people.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You say the book identifies the date of their

9 disappearance or when they were last seen?

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour, it does, and I've showed it to

11 me --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we will be able to determine whether it falls

13 within the indictment period or not.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Absolutely. That's my understanding. And what we

15 have done is made photocopies of the actual pages, to reduce it down,

16 which have individuals picked out by this witness that are members of his

17 extended family. We have copies for everybody of that.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We'll consult.

19 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, if I can address the court on this

20 point.

21 MR. GREAVES: I'd like to reply, if I may.

22 MR. VUCICEVIC: Let him reply and --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic first and then Mr. Greaves to

24 reply.

25 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, point number one. We have not

Page 1607

1 received the copies of this book ahead of time so we could meaningful

2 object to the authenticity and the relevance of this matter, but on this

3 point I do concur with Mr. Greaves.

4 Now, two, if this book -- and we have not heard who is the order,

5 how was it prepared, with what degree of accuracy, and I think it would be

6 a lot more appropriate -- it seems to me what the learned counsel of the

7 Prosecution table is going to jog the witness' memory without first

8 exploring the witness' memory to begin with. If he wishes to do so, he

9 might be allowed, but only after witness testifies whether he knows or not

10 and under what circumstances and when certain individuals of his family

11 perished.

12 And I do -- because this is done concurrently and the witness is

13 hearing what we're saying and I do apologise this is a very difficult time

14 for him, but this is our job.

15 Mr. Witness, I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, yes, in reply.

17 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, if the death or disappearance of

18 someone falls outside the indictment period, it cannot be relevant and

19 cannot be probative. It simply cannot be if it falls outside the

20 indictment period. In my submission, my learned friend is wrong when he

21 asserts it's simply a matter of weight. It cannot be relevant. It cannot

22 be probative of any fact in issue between any of the parties on the

23 indictment if it's outside the indictment period.

24 JUDGE MAY: If it's within the indictment period, then it is

25 relevant and appropriate.

Page 1608

1 MR. GREAVES: It is potentially relevant and potentially

2 probative.

3 JUDGE MAY: So if we had a list with the relevant dates, much of

4 the force of your objection would fall away.

5 MR. GREAVES: Yes.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We will admit the book and we'll exclude

8 from our consideration those deaths or disappearances that fall outside

9 the date of the indictment.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I note the time. Do you wish me to do this

11 now?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I think we must finish, and I have two

13 questions of the witness.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Mr. Usher, could you show this book,

15 please, to the witness? And we have copies for - they are all the same -

16 for their lordships and for my learned friends.

17 I might say, Your Honour, that the witness brought this book with

18 him and has been asked to place green stickers on his family relatives.

19 We have then photocopied those pages and have outlined in yellow on the

20 copies you've now been given the individuals that are his family members

21 that he's referred to on those pages. So you have the yellow highlights

22 as being ones that he's marked on the original exhibit.

23 Q. So, Witness, looking at the book, did you place those green

24 stickers on the individuals of your family who you have indicated are

25 members of your family?

Page 1609

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. If we can first of all go -- I'm just going to take the first

3 page, which is marked as page 23. Would you turn to page 23, please, or

4 look at the ELMO there? It would be your first green sticker, in spot

5 number 149 in the book. Do you see that person?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the name is Arifagic, Abdul Enver. Is that a relative of

8 yours?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was his relationship to you?

11 A. His father and my father were cousins. They were sons of two

12 brothers.

13 Q. And there is a date at the bottom there, 21/08/1992, Vlasic. Do

14 you know what that refers to?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What does that mean?

17 A. It refers to the Vlasic case. During my stay in Trnopolje camp,

18 Enver arrived at the Trnopolje camp. He had been transferred from

19 Omarska. During the organisation of this convoy that was -- that had

20 crossed Vlasic, Enver was a very wealthy man. He had worked in

21 Switzerland for a long period of time and had retired. He had a good

22 house, good car and everything else. Before his departure, he told me

23 that he had transferred his car to a Serb in Prijedor, I don't know whom,

24 and that he had arranged with him to be on this -- to be on this convoy

25 that was crossing Mount Vlasic. He never emerged on the other side.

Page 1610

1 Q. Do you know whether he has ever been seen by any member of your

2 family since the 21st of August, 1992?

3 A. No, nobody ever -- nobody has ever seen him. I think that his

4 sons - and they are still in Switzerland - through a Serb friend in

5 Switzerland, he had promised them to -- that he would find him for a great

6 deal of money, and he disappeared and the money disappeared.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I just want to find out --

8 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm not trying to --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- that last date, then, is the date last seen or

10 the date of death?

11 MR. RYNEVELD: That is what I was trying to do. And for the next

12 one I thought I would ask the witness, if we could turn quickly to number

13 150 on the same page, Arifagic, Arif Hamdija. There is a date there,

14 20/07/1992.

15 Q. I don't need the details of the individual, sir, but what does

16 that date refer to? Do you see --

17 A. On that date, Hamdija was taken from Omarska. He was an

18 active-duty police officer, and he was -- spent his entire career in

19 Omarska. The explanation was that he had been taken to be exchanged but

20 nobody ever saw him again.

21 Q. To your knowledge, is he alive today?

22 A. No.

23 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Vucicevic?

25 MR. VUCICEVIC: I would like to stipulate to this exhibit, and I

Page 1611

1 respectfully suggest that the exhibit speaks for itself with the dates

2 that are therein.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I don't think you need to do any more.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I thought I'd try a couple.

5 Q. Now, sir, these are the people that you marked in the book and

6 these are the ones that are highlighted in yellow. Could you perhaps just

7 quickly look at the copy that we have made?

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Could you show him the copy that's been given to

9 counsel?

10 Q. Are there yellow highlights there, sir?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And those yellow highlights correspond with your family relatives;

13 is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Those are the questions I have.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd just like to ask --

17 A. What I would like to add is that some of the members of my family

18 have been exhumed. They were found in mass graves and subsequently

19 identified.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Witness. I'd like to ask

21 you two questions. Firstly, in the early parts of your testimony, you

22 gave evidence of three fingers being broken, which were never set. What

23 is the state of those fingers today? Were they ever set? And if so, when

24 and where?

25 A. The first examination, that is the adequate examination which I

Page 1612

1 received, was when I arrived in the transit centre at Karlovac. The

2 physicians -- the first physicians who were there registered that case.

3 After that, it healed. They took X-rays. And probably part of the

4 tendons -- I don't know, but now I can move my fingers. However, if I

5 exert my arm a little bit more, I lose strength in it quite quickly and I

6 cannot use it properly.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: When did you arrive at Karlovac?

8 A. The 1st of October.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you spent the rest of your --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: You spent the rest of your time at Keraterm with

12 your fingers broken?

13 A. Yes, of course.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was it brought to the attention of anybody that

15 your fingers were broken?

16 A. To whom I draw attention? There were people with worse injuries,

17 with broken hips. If you wanted to draw attention to your injury, you

18 would end up in a truck where you were asked to provide help, and you

19 would never appear again.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... with

21 Sikirica. I believe you gave evidence that after the second massacre,

22 which was the day after the first, you saw him when the bodies were being

23 removed. Did you see him at any time at Keraterm after that and prior to

24 your leaving?

25 A. Yes, I did. That was the moment I remember quite well. It was

Page 1613

1 one, two or three days before the camp was disbanded. We were ordered to

2 bring out all the pallets where we had slept, to wash the room and the

3 pallets, and we thought that it was a day when the camp would be

4 disbanded. However, all this was returned and we stayed there. And then

5 a day or two before the camp was disbanded, we were lined up. Again it

6 was in front of the Room 1, closer to the road. Kajin was there and he

7 was counting us, Sikirica was on the side, and I know that all of those

8 who were counting inmates were going to him with these lists, and they

9 were all addressing him.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you see him again at Keraterm after that,

11 prior to your leaving?

12 A. I think that I did not. It was disbanded right after that.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We will now take the adjournment and

14 resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.

15 Mr. Arifagic, you're reminded not to discuss your evidence with

16 anyone, including members of the Prosecution team.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

18 5.13 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday the 3rd day

19 of April, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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