Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1752

1 Wednesday, 4 April 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before we continue with the examination of the

7 witness, I will say something very briefly about the matter which was

8 raised late yesterday afternoon. The premise for counsel's remarks that

9 the question asked was based on the witness summary is wrong. Whether the

10 question has a proper basis in the evidence is not something which need

11 detain us at this time, at this stage of the trial, and it is trite that

12 the summary is not evidence. I would, however, wish to emphasise the

13 right and indeed the duty of the Chamber to ask questions in these

14 proceedings which, although of a fundamentally adversarial character, also

15 have significant inquisitorial elements.

16 Continue, Mr. Petrovic.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Rodic will

18 continue.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic.

20 WITNESS: WITNESS G [Resumed]

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic: [Continued]

24 Q. Good morning, Witness G. Let us continue with the examination.

25 Can you tell us something more about the lighting in the Keraterm

Page 1753

1 compound? The lampposts that we saw on the photograph there, did they

2 work? Rather, did they provide lights in Keraterm?

3 A. When there was power, then, yes, they did light the compound, but

4 when there was no electricity, then we didn't have any lights either. One

5 could see it from the town. If the town was dark, we were in darkness

6 too, and when the town had electricity, then we also had it.

7 Q. And the lighting came from those lampposts in front of Rooms 3 and

8 4 in the grass?

9 A. I do not remember exactly where they were. I only know that when

10 there was electricity, then we also had lights, but if the town was in

11 darkness, then Keraterm was in darkness too.

12 Q. Do you know where was bread brought for prisoners was kept?

13 A. No, I don't. I only know when it was distributed. I had nothing

14 to do with them but I know when the food was distributed, that was

15 sometime between 3.00 and 6.00, and I know that the queue would be formed

16 in front of a room next to Room 2 where the food was distributed, but

17 where it was kept, I don't know.

18 Q. Tell us, do you know who distributed that food?

19 A. I know there was a female who usually did it.

20 Q. What was the situation with the water supply in Keraterm?

21 A. Water supply, that was -- it was very bad. At times there was

22 very little water; at times there was no water at all. When I moved over

23 to Room 4, it improved slightly because there was a hydrant right there,

24 so that if there was no other water, we could get it from there.

25 Q. But does it mean that there was some water shortages, same as

Page 1754

1 electricity at that time?

2 A. I cannot really tell you if there were shortages or not. I do not

3 know what the situation was. At times there was water; at times there

4 wasn't. While I was in Room 2, they would let us out sometimes, and we

5 would have some plastic bottles and fill them. At times you have water;

6 at times somebody gives it to you; at times you don't. I mean, that is

7 how it was.

8 Q. Is it true that the water was also brought in water trucks to the

9 compound?

10 A. On various occasions, I did see that, yes, not very often. But

11 there were a few occasions when water was brought by trucks to the

12 compound.

13 Q. Tell us, of course, if you know, with regard to the medical aid,

14 was that organised in some situations?

15 A. Well, it was organised. How many times, I don't know. Once or

16 twice perhaps following the massacre in Room 3. I know after that, they

17 took away people. And before that, the guy had a arm broken. One or two

18 also were taken to the hospital.

19 Q. And tell me, as for the organisation of shift work, do you know

20 something about that?

21 A. Oh, this. Well, I wasn't in a situation where I could know

22 anything about it. I only know when which shift was, but to say something

23 about the organisation, I do not know that.

24 Q. But the working hours, the changes, when did they change?

25 A. I think that shift changes took place in the morning and in the

Page 1755

1 evening.

2 Q. And tell me, did the guards whom were part of the security service

3 of Keraterm have their posts, have their fixed posts where they stood

4 guard or did they move around Keraterm?

5 A. Well, most of the time they moved freely around Keraterm, that is,

6 within the compound, which was fenced in.

7 Q. So there were not strictly fixed sentry posts where shifts took

8 place and where they were all the time?

9 A. Well, where you entered, where that hut was, I think that is where

10 shift changes took place and where they spent most of the time, but they

11 mostly walked around the camp. At times they would come to our rooms,

12 talk with people, because they also had friends amongst us.

13 Q. And tell me, was there a guard at the gate, at the entrance into

14 Keraterm, that is, before the scales, before the weigh hut, by the moving

15 gate?

16 A. Yes, yes, yes. I know where that is, but I cannot really tell

17 you. At times there would be somebody there, at times there wouldn't.

18 And there was this hut with the scales, so at times there was somebody in

19 it, at times there was somebody outside it. It is difficult to say.

20 Q. I do not insist. I am simply trying to either prompt your memory

21 or see what you remember.

22 Tell me, did you know Kajin's brother?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Then you do not know if he worked in the camp too?

25 A. I only heard about it, but I didn't know that, that there was -- I

Page 1756

1 knew that there was Kajin and his brother, but I did not know him. I

2 simply couldn't recognise him. I didn't know who that was.

3 Q. You said that when you arrived, Kajin was mentioned to you by

4 other prisoners; is that correct?

5 A. It is.

6 Q. You also said that Kajin was there to prevent beating and

7 ill-treatment of prisoners.

8 A. Well, that happened in my presence. I could see that, and I can

9 testify about that, but Zigic beat us nevertheless.

10 Q. And did other prisoners tell you that there were some other

11 similar situations?

12 A. Well, I suppose there were other similar situations. He could

13 lock us and, nevertheless, what happened happened, that is.

14 Q. No, I'm asking about similar situations that one or some of the

15 prisoners may have mentioned Kajin putting an end to beating or

16 something.

17 A. I cannot really tell you. I don't know.

18 Q. I'm asking you this because when the Prosecutor asked you how did

19 you know that Kajin was a shift commander, you said, "People said that he

20 was a commander and he would come, and if something happened, he would put

21 an end to that and that is how we knew that he was a shift commander."

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. I am sorry about what happened to you personally, but I must ask

24 you this because it is related to the event when you were beaten. So

25 could you please tell me, when you told us about 22 prisoners being

Page 1757

1 beaten, you were one of them. Is it correct to say that Zigic called out

2 Kozaracians from the room?

3 A. Yes, that is correct. It was Zigic and Duca Knezevic.

4 Q. Can you tell me how many other people took part in the beating?

5 Roughly.

6 A. I was beaten by Zigic himself and another guy who, as I told you,

7 never said anything. He was only there and executed a detail, performed

8 all sorts of sordid tasks, and to this I understood Duca and others, who

9 were -- who were there, who were present there but did not take part in

10 the beating.

11 Q. Were there some soldiers there too?

12 A. You mean in that line where we were, on our side?

13 Q. No, no, no. I mean among those who beat you or watched you being

14 beaten?

15 A. Well, there was Zigic who beat and that other guy, and there was

16 Knezevic and Banovics and others. Two or three others were there standing

17 by, but you are just thinking how to stay alive. You don't really think

18 about such things. I can only tell you who was with me.

19 Q. Is it true that it happened in the afternoon, or rather towards

20 the -- sometimes at twilight, at dusk, when guards -- at the time when

21 guards usually change?

22 A. Well, I think it was in the afternoon, but at what time in the

23 afternoon, I don't remember.

24 Q. Can you tell me something more about when you were told to line up

25 and face one another in those lines? How was this line placed in relation

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Page 1759

1 to Rooms 1 and 2?

2 A. The line was -- well, you have rooms which are 1, 2, 3, 4, so the

3 line was roughly about in the same position, that is from the

4 Prijedor-Banja Luka road, that is where the first two men stood and we

5 then were towards Kozara, northward. That is how the lines went.

6 Q. In other words, we can say that these two lines ran parallel with

7 the building, is it? They were lines in parallel with the building?

8 A. Yes. This is the building and this is how we stood.

9 Q. Do you remember where you were, nearer the road or the opposite

10 side?

11 A. No, no, no. I was the last one in the direction of Kozara. Redzo

12 Grabic faced me.

13 Q. So you were the last one toward Kozara, from the road and then the

14 last one in that column. And where did you face, Redzo and --

15 A. Yes, I faced Redzo and the town, Prijedor, or the petrol station,

16 if you like, and Redzo faced Kozarac.

17 Q. Which means that you had Room 4 in front of you?

18 A. Well, no in my case, Rooms 1 and 2.

19 Q. So you had Room 2 in front of you, or rather between you and the

20 room was Redzo Grabic; is that right?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. And the blow that was dealt you at the back of your head with a

23 metal rod, it was a powerful blow, wasn't it?

24 A. It was. It all went black. And a few minutes later, I realised

25 that I would faint and went -- when they let us go, I fainted and --

Page 1760

1 Q. No, no, no. I will ask about it later. What I'm asking now is

2 that particular blow. You told us that you were hit, and when they hit

3 you on the back, that another one then hits you from the front, and that

4 you have a scar. That is, you were hit a second time?

5 A. Yes. I was hit with the boot. I was kicked with a boot here

6 below the chin, and my flesh was cut here.

7 Q. You described the situation, that it all went black before your

8 eyes. Were you frightened at that moment? Did you fear for your life?

9 A. Come on, I mean, who wouldn't? Of course I was frightened. Who

10 wouldn't be frightened?

11 Q. Yes, I understand that, but I have to ask you that. Please

12 understand. And under those circumstances which you describe, did you

13 dare react somehow or resist Zigic so that he would stop beating you?

14 A. No, we didn't -- did not dare do anything because you have to keep

15 silent and just wait to see what next would happen to you. Otherwise, you

16 would -- it would be even worse.

17 Q. And isn't it true that when then Kajin came from the entrance by

18 the weigh bridge, that he then said to stop that and to let you go into

19 your rooms?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. I apologise, something is missing from the transcript. Let me

22 repeat this question. So is it correct to say that when Kajin came from

23 the direction of the entrance into Keraterm and the scales, and said to

24 stop it and to move into rooms?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 1761

1 Q. And in your view, did Kajin save you on that occasion?

2 A. Well, listen, I suppose he did, but he also could have locked that

3 room so that nobody could get to us.

4 Q. Can you tell me if anybody else asked from you money and valuables

5 before Goran Grahovac?

6 A. No, there was nobody before him. He was the first one who came

7 and requested money and gold.

8 Q. When you described that situation, you said that there was Fustar

9 together with Grahovac and that when they saw the new guard commander,

10 that Grahovac escaped across the Keraterm fence; is that correct?

11 A. It is.

12 Q. Can you tell me where was Fustar at that point?

13 A. Fustar, we, that is all three of us, were next to the wall, next

14 to the wall of that weigh hut, to the north. Grahovac was sitting on a

15 beer crate, and I stood next to him, and Fustar was to Grahovac's left.

16 So Grahovac was in the middle, I was to the left, and Fustar was to his

17 right, perhaps a metre, not more than two metres away from me.

18 Q. What I want to know, what I would like you to tell us, if you

19 know, when Grahovac fled, did Fustar stay there or did he go somewhere?

20 A. At that point, Fustar saw the commander first because he was on

21 the corner with me and he said, "Beat it or scram. Here comes the

22 commander." So he allowed me to run to the room, and Grahovac escaped

23 across the fence. That's how it was.

24 Q. And were there any guards in the direction which Grahovac took

25 when he fled?

Page 1762

1 A. I cannot say that because at that moment, I also had to run

2 towards the rooms so that I turned my back on him.

3 Q. I ask you this because I wanted to know if you know if anybody

4 tried to prevent him from escaping. Is it true that you said that Zigic

5 came to the camp as he pleased, that he did as he pleased, and that nobody

6 could do anything about it?

7 A. That is right. That is true. He came to the camp as he pleased,

8 he did as he pleased.

9 Q. Can that also be said of a man called Duca?

10 A. They were always together, Duca and Zigic. One could say that on

11 in -- 90 per cent of the cases when they came to Keraterm, they came

12 together.

13 Q. Does that also hold true of brothers Banovic?

14 A. They were there often, but I believe that they were both on the

15 same shift, even though I can't affirm that.

16 Q. And tell me, to your knowledge, did any of the prisoners in

17 Keraterm ever report his beating to somebody?

18 A. I cannot tell you that. I do not know that. But if you told

19 some -- as a rule, if you told somebody that you had been beaten, you more

20 often than not ended up on the garbage dump outside. You could not really

21 tell anyone that you had been beaten.

22 Q. Which means that there was the danger of revenge.

23 A. There was a danger. If a soldier stops you and says, "What's the

24 matter? Is your arm broken," or, "You have injuries on your face or your

25 head, what happened to you?" and you answer, "I fell off the stairs," or,

Page 1763

1 "I stumbled or something," that is what we did as a rule, because if

2 someone said that he'd been hit by a soldier, in 90 per cent of the cases,

3 we could know that that man would be killed. And when you saw that,

4 nobody dared say any more about what had happened to him.

5 Q. Could one say then that under the circumstances, there was no

6 authority and officer in Keraterm who would then punish those who did

7 those things to prisoners, who would take disciplinary measures, remove

8 those people from work there? Was there anything of the kind at that

9 time?

10 A. In some cases, yes. In my own case, when Zigic did that, well,

11 Kajin evidently was the authority which stopped that. But there were also

12 a number of cases. At the gate, there was a soldier. He could always

13 prevent anyone from entering the camp if he was not a member there.

14 Q. Yes, I understand the situation, and you also told us about it.

15 You said that there were a number of beatings, that it was done by people

16 who came from outside, that at times guards also -- Keraterm guards

17 participated in all this, and that is why I'm asking you, because of --

18 was there any superior, somebody who was senior, somebody with authority

19 who could tell the guard to stop, to get away, to dismiss him from work or

20 something?

21 A. I cannot really give you an answer to this. Maybe there was,

22 maybe there wasn't. I was just a prisoner there.

23 Q. And tell me, in this group for special treatment that you

24 mentioned, those -- the men in that group, you said that you were -- that

25 they were also beaten whilst in the room. Can you tell us exactly who

Page 1764

1 entered and who did it in the room?

2 A. They were put right next to the door, left of the door. Zigic and

3 Knezevic entered the room, but other guys came in too. I know the two of

4 them only too well, because they were always the first to take everybody

5 out and all the rest.

6 Q. Can you tell me, in the light of your own experience, you were at

7 Trnopolje, you were in the military police barracks, you were at Keraterm,

8 in certain situations you have experienced first hand and you saw other

9 situations, the entire situation at Prijedor, would you call -- call all

10 of this a chaotic situation, given that certain individuals were doing

11 whatever they wanted?

12 A. On the one hand it may have been chaotic. On the other hand, not

13 really, because if we -- if all of us who were Muslim were arrested, that

14 means that once it had power and did what they wanted. Now, what the real

15 situation was, I don't know. I'm not a military strategist or anything

16 like that, so I couldn't tell you.

17 Q. I agree with you that one side detained the other, but when I

18 referred to the chaotic situation, I was referring to the absence of order

19 and discipline, conducting things in an orderly manner, because you

20 yourself mentioned all the beatings and the taking of valuables away and

21 things like that. So that was in reference to that that I asked whether

22 it was a chaotic situation.

23 A. It would be really, really hard for me to explain to you.

24 Q. Let me try to assist you. Let me try to assist you. You said

25 that you served in the JNA. At that time, it was nearly two years, if I'm

 

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Page 1766

1 not mistaken.

2 A. It was 18 months about.

3 Q. After that, were you ever a member of the reserve?

4 A. Yes, I was, on several occasions.

5 Q. In respect of organisation, subordination, and then punishing and

6 censuring of the subordinates by the superiors, in light of that, was that

7 the experience that you had when you served in the military?

8 A. Yes. That was a completely different situation. When you were

9 issued an order, you had to do what you were told, whereas here, everybody

10 did whatever they pleased or wanted.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have completed my

13 questioning.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

15 Mr. Vucicevic.

16 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic:

18 Q. Mr. Witness, I'm Dusan Vucicevic, attorney from Chicago, and I

19 represent Dragan Kolundzija.

20 You gave a statement to the investigators of this Tribunal on

21 11 November 1995; is that correct?

22 A. I don't know the exact date, but it was 1995.

23 Q. 11 November. And on that location, when you concluded with your

24 statement, the gentleman from the Prosecution had either read back to you

25 the statement or given it to you to read?

Page 1767

1 A. Yes. He said that it should be read. And there was a lady who

2 was an interpreter. However, she was unable to say everything. She was

3 an ethnic Slovene, so she -- I had to explain certain words to her.

4 Q. If I understand you correctly, the Office of the Prosecutor did

5 not provide an interpreter who could understand you fully?

6 A. It was the other way around. So there were some corrections.

7 Q. So the corrections of this interview were done in a way that

8 eventually you signed the document of your own will?

9 A. Yes. After all the corrections, I did sign the statement.

10 Q. When did the corrections take place after you signed the

11 statement?

12 A. The corrections were entered last year.

13 Q. But let me point -- let me put it to you that in the document that

14 you signed on 11 November, 1995, there were no corrections made. What I

15 would like to do -- this is the document signed by you on 11 November,

16 1995. Could you please review it and say what you had corrected before

17 signing it?

18 A. I remember, for instance, that from the village where I lived,

19 2.000 to 3.000 of us left. That is not correct. I couldn't have said

20 that because I know that there were 11 homes and about 100 people and

21 there were Grozdanics, and that was about ten homes.

22 Q. I don't want to go that wide. What I'm interested in, did you

23 correct anything with respect to the shooting that occurred at Room 3,

24 that is, that single paragraph?

25 A. I would have to review it. It was a long time ago.

Page 1768

1 Q. Very well. When this incident took place, you were in Room 4?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. How far were you from the door?

4 A. Somewhere between three and four metres.

5 Q. Were you on a pallet or styrofoam or on a blanket?

6 A. We had a pallet and we had neither styrofoam or a blanket.

7 Q. But some of the detainees had styrofoam?

8 A. In my room, no one did.

9 Q. How far were you from the wall, the partition wall between Rooms 3

10 and 4?

11 A. I was again three or up to four metres away.

12 Q. Do you remember, had you fallen asleep that night after the door

13 was closed?

14 A. Who would have -- who could have slept when there was shooting all

15 night long?

16 Q. Did you hear noise, voices, and some kind of banging coming from

17 the prisoners in Room 4 because you were so close?

18 A. First I heard moans and cries, and then there was noise and

19 banging on the door because people just got crazed.

20 Q. I see that you gave a statement to the OTP on 11 November 1995,

21 and in it you said: [In English] "They ran out of oxygen so they pulled

22 themselves up to try to open the windows." Did anybody tell you that or

23 you heard them talking about that, about that action, climbing up to open

24 the windows?

25 A. Yes, that is correct. I heard that but before that --

Page 1769

1 Q. You heard the inmates from Room 3 because there was only a thin

2 wall between you. You heard them when they were talking about climbing to

3 open the windows, didn't you?

4 A. No, I did not hear that. People were jumping up to open the

5 window. They were trying to smash the window.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... the windows, and you heard

7 the jumping and noise coming from Room number 3?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. You said they ran out of oxygen. You meant to say they ran out of

10 air, they couldn't breathe; isn't that true?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were they asking that the door be open or the windows be open

13 while they were running out of air? They were yelling and screaming

14 asking for that, weren't they? You were right there. You could hear it.

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. And since you were so close to that room and you were awake all

17 night long, you didn't hear a bomb being thrown into the Room number 3,

18 explosion of a bomb in Room 3? Could you hear that?

19 A. A bomb could have been heard but I did not hear any bomb, any

20 explosions. It was just rifles and machine-guns.

21 Q. Since you were so close, you didn't smell any plain natural gas or

22 any other poison gas in your room? Did you smell it?

23 A. Cannot answer that question. I don't recall it.

24 Q. As far as you remember, you couldn't smell anything unusual?

25 A. Listen, the smells, we had a barrel there where we urinated, and

Page 1770

1 of course it was closed and it was very hot during that period, so that

2 was the --

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... ammonia and from the -- I'll

4 repeat the question because it's not on the record. Of course there was a

5 stench from ammonia that you had from the barrel that you had in your

6 room, but you didn't feel any other type of the noxious smells?

7 A. No, I don't recall having smelled anything.

8 Q. You testified to the OTP in November of 1995 that truck -- "A

9 truckload of soldiers came around 2100 hours and took about 30 people from

10 Room 3. After about a half an hour, there were gunshots. Among those 30

11 people were a number of brothers." That was three years after the

12 incident had happened. Could you see these soldiers coming in at -- and

13 remember it correctly at that time?

14 A. I did not remember the exact time. I said that that was the

15 lunch, that is after dinner that we had, but we saw the soldiers when we

16 were coming back because they had arrived at a gate in trucks. After

17 that, we were all put in rooms.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you said to the Prosecutor.

19 Now it's nine years later, and the Prosecutor said all that you know about

20 that incident is what you heard from others. So I'm only asking what did

21 you remember then, and what is your recollection, not what you heard from

22 the others because that was -- the side that is presenting you as a

23 witness already has put it as a part of your testimony, that is you are

24 unsure about.

25 A. I saw exactly when the soldiers arrived.

Page 1771

1 Q. How many machine-guns were there in the camp when you were brought

2 in on the first day?

3 A. I think that there were one or two. I don't know exactly. As you

4 put it, after nine and a half years, it's hard to know.

5 Q. So when you said there were three guns that had been firing in the

6 direction of Room 3, you're not sure about that either? You didn't see

7 it, did you? You couldn't see it, because you said the door was closed.

8 A. A day before, a desk was placed, with sandbags, and one

9 machine-gun was placed. This was before the massacre, three or four or

10 five days.

11 Q. So as you remember now after nine years, that was set up two days

12 before?

13 A. I didn't say two days. I said two or three. Several days.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Prosecutor.

16 MS. BALY: Actually, Your Honour, the witness said, "Three or four

17 or five days."

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's correct.

19 MR. VUCICEVIC: I do -- appreciate it. Thank you.

20 Thank you, Ms. Baly.

21 Q. You have testified also in Omarska trial, and I'm going to read

22 something that you have said there just to refresh your memory, and I'll

23 ask you a couple of questions from the same subject.

24 The question was: [As read]

25 Q. Now, you mentioned some of the individuals at the

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1 checkpoints were wearing fur caps, caps with a cockade

2 on it. What did that indicate to you? What did that

3 mean to you?

4 A. Well, it meant to me they were Chetniks because there was

5 a lot of talk about them, and one knows them from

6 history.

7 Q. And you -- how did you or why was it that you correlated

8 someone wearing that type of cap with a cockade on it to

9 identify them as Chetnik? Why was it that you would make

10 that association?

11 A. That was a feeling I had. I simply knew that. Quite a

12 number of films had been made in Yugoslavia about this,

13 and I also worked for a film, "The Battle on the ..."

14 And that wasn't finished. Could you tell this Court what -- could

15 you please tell this Court what was the name of that film that you worked

16 on?

17 A. The film was called, "Battle of Neretva," and the second was,

18 "Battle of Kozara," and the third one was called, "Gorge." Those were

19 the three films.

20 Q. What was your -- what was the extent of your participation in

21 those movies -- those films. Sorry.

22 A. During the filming of the "Battle of Neretva," I was a soldier,

23 and I was involved for seven months. One day I was wearing a black --

24 black clothing and a fur hat with a cockade. On another day of shooting,

25 I was wearing a partisan uniform with a five-pointed star. And as the

Page 1774

1 needs changed, this is how we -- what we put on as costumes.

2 Q. And how long approximately have you participated in filming of

3 "Battle on Neretva"?

4 A. I participated between six and seven months.

5 Q. And how long was your military service, length of your military

6 service at that time?

7 A. Eighteen months.

8 Q. Can you tell us what was the extent of your participation in that

9 movie about Kozara?

10 A. At that time, in the fourth or fifth grade and -- so the school --

11 we went there with the school, and we participated in the filming as

12 children.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you could remember what kind

14 of a costume --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, I'm waiting to see the relevance

16 of the witness' thespian qualities to these proceedings.

17 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I'll just repeat my question.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do his acting abilities have to do with

19 these proceedings? Tell me.

20 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, here we go. Yesterday, when the

21 Prosecutor asked the question: [As read]

22 Q. And you also said on that occasion that Kajin said that

23 he disagreed with the Chetnik policy.

24 A. Yes. That he disagreed with the Chetnik policy, with the

25 SDS policy, that he really ...

Page 1775

1 That was the answer.

2 A. ... that he really did not want to see people tortured

3 and mistreated. If somebody was guilty, they should be

4 brought to justice ...

5 And on and on.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, don't make a speech. And I

7 should -- I'm just reminded to tell you that the interpreters are having

8 difficulties with translating. You are speaking too fast, and you're also

9 overlapping.

10 Now, just tell me very briefly, what is the relevance of this

11 testimony?

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: The witness has testified about the two kinds of

13 soldiers on the checkpoints. There was JNA soldiers or Serbian soldiers

14 and other soldiers that were called or, you know, persons that had dressed

15 up and were called Chetniks. Then there was the testimony that they had

16 some special policy that was linked to the alleged ethnic cleansing, and

17 I -- and cleansing of all non-Serbian population in Prijedor, and he has

18 indicated that they were all Green Berets, and then I just wanted to find

19 out does he know who those soldiers are and how they were linked to this

20 policy and proceed.

21 If the Prosecutor is bringing up to three or four witnesses --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

23 MR. VUCICEVIC: -- we do get a chance to explore it.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We'll consider the relevance of

25 that.

Page 1776

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, the Chamber rules that this matter

3 is not relevant. Move on to another question.

4 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, so if I understand you correctly --

5 if it's not relevant, it wouldn't be relevant for the Prosecutor to bring

6 it up ever again.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just move on and don't argue. We have made a

8 ruling. If you wish to question it, you may do so in another arena. Move

9 on.

10 MR. VUCICEVIC:

11 Q. Witness, are you familiar with the term "Patriotic League"?

12 A. [In English] No. [Interpretation] I was not a member of any

13 parties.

14 Q. If I can help you recall, Patriotic League was not a political

15 party but a military organisation of Bosnian Muslims. Does it help you

16 recollect?

17 A. It does not jog my memory in any way. I don't know anything about

18 it.

19 Q. When you were exchanged, do you know who -- at that time, who was

20 the commanding officer of the Bosnian army?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Sefer Halilovic jogs your

23 memory?

24 A. I have heard of that name.

25 Q. What was his function, if you do remember?

Page 1777

1 A. I don't know exactly, but I only heard that he was either a unit

2 commander or a commander of the BH army. I don't know.

3 Q. He has written a book. Have you heard about that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So you didn't hear that he wrote a book; is that correct?

6 A. I did not hear about it, and I don't know anything about it.

7 Q. The Prosecutor asked you the question: "Witness G, what do you

8 understand by the expression, 'cleanse the forest of Green Berets'?" And

9 you answered: "It meant to me that they would look at all our people,

10 Muslims or perhaps other ethnic background."

11 Why did you identify Green Berets with all the Muslims and

12 non-Serbs in the area in this answer?

13 A. When they incarcerated us in the camp, they only asked us about

14 Green Berets, who they were, where they were, what their names were, and

15 suchlike.

16 Q. You have testified about your past. Have you heard a term

17 "Ustasha" ever?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know what kind of uniforms and what kind of insignias did

20 they have?

21 A. Listen, I cannot tell you with certainty. I know they looked

22 pretty much like Chetniks because it's the same kind of organisation

23 except that the former was on one side and the latter on the other.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues]?

25 A. Yes, I was.

Page 1778

1 Q. You just said that is what you heard through your membership of

2 the party; isn't that correct?

3 A. No. I saw the Ustasha on film too, when we did it.

4 Q. So do you agree with me that both of these organisations were just

5 pictured so bad by the ruling party that you belonged to; isn't that

6 correct?

7 A. Well, both were presented in a bad light, except that I

8 participated in one of those when the film was made and I did not

9 participate in the other.

10 Q. At the beginning of the war in Bosnia, in 1992, while Bosnian

11 Muslims and Croats were at peace, have you ever heard the word "Ustasha"

12 being uttered by any of the Muslim leadership at that time?

13 A. Not where I lived and worked, because we were together with Serbs,

14 and one can check that any time who were my neighbours. And we indeed

15 took care when there was war in Croatia, down in Kozarac because their

16 houses were there and ours were right next to them, so that we were

17 together at that time.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... ceremony of tying of the

19 flags in Sarajevo in 1991?

20 A. I only saw it on television. I know nothing else about it.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and who were the persons you

22 saw on TV doing it?

23 A. I do not know.

24 Q. You just said that you saw it on the TV, you remember that you saw

25 it, but you just don't know who were the persons there; right?

 

Page 1779

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Page 1780

1 A. I am from Kozarac and they are in Sarajevo. That is 300

2 kilometres away. And you mean I should know every single individual who

3 lives in Bosnia there?

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... but you just testified that

5 you saw it on TV, so distance is not relevant. I'm asking just if you

6 didn't remember --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly is on her feet.

8 MS. BALY: Your Honour, I object to this line of questioning.

9 It's not relevant and the witness' knowledge of it comes only from his

10 viewing of television. He says he doesn't know who the persons were

11 involved, and it should end there, in my submission.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The Chamber agrees. Move on,

13 Mr. Vucicevic.

14 MR. VUCICEVIC: I have no more questions, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic. Re-examination, Ms.

16 Baly?

17 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour

18 Re-examined by Ms. Baly:

19 Q. Witness G, you gave some evidence that three, four or five days

20 prior to the massacre, a desk with sand bags and a machine-gun were

21 placed. I have two questions. Firstly, who placed those items there?

22 A. Well, the guards, I suppose, the guards in the Keraterm camp.

23 Q. Which way was the machine-gun facing?

24 A. They were facing the rooms where we slept.

25 Q. You were asked questions about whether inmates complained about

Page 1781

1 beatings, and you said to the effect that if they did, they would end up

2 on the garbage dump outside. What did you mean by that?

3 A. I meant that if a soldier, one of the guards, asks you, "What's

4 happened to you? Why is your head injured or your arm broken," or if you

5 ever had any other visible bruises or you have blood on you, then he asks

6 you, "What happened?" And if you say you were beaten, then he will ask

7 you, "Who?" And if you know the name, and say it, as a rule, the next

8 evening that person would be killed and dumped on garbage which was near

9 the garage above Room 4.

10 Q. Finally, Witness G, when detained at the Keraterm camp, were you a

11 civilian person?

12 A. I was a civilian throughout.

13 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour. Those are my questions.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly.

15 Witness G, that completes your testimony. You may go.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, your next witness?

18 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, if I could briefly go into closed

19 session?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, closed session.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1782

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Page 1784

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13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [Open session]

18 MR. MUNDIS: I'm providing the usher with copies of a document

19 that contains identifying information with respect to this witness, and I

20 would ask that he be shown a copy of that once it's been distributed to

21 the parties and the Chamber.

22 We are, in fact, in open session? Is that -- okay.

23 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

24 Q. Witness, I would ask you to look at the document that you've been

25 provided and please verify that your name and date of birth are listed on

Page 1785

1 that document.

2 A. They are.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'd ask that this document be marked as

4 the next exhibit in order, please.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

6 MR. MUNDIS: And admitted into evidence.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number 25.

8 MR. MUNDIS:

9 Q. Witness, can you tell the Court, please, where you were born and

10 where you were raised?

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 Q. And, Witness, you are a Muslim; is that correct?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. And in the year 1992, were you a civilian?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Witness, I would like to draw your attention to June 1992. At

21 that time, were you living in Trnopolje?

22 A. I was.

23 Q. Did there come a time when a group of soldiers arrived in your

24 village and ordered you to dig graves?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1786

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Page 1787

1 Q. Can you please briefly describe what happened, to the Court?

2 A. As I lived not far from the cemetery, a group of soldiers came and

3 called my first cousin and me to the cemetery to dig four graves for

4 people whom I did not know and who had been brought in plastic bags from

5 the Trnopolje camp.

6 Q. Witness, in relation to where you were living in 1992, where was

7 the Trnopolje camp?

8 A. It was about 1.500 metres away from my house.

9 Q. And, Witness, during the same time period, that is, in June of

10 1992, did additional soldiers arrive and begin expelling the Muslim

11 population from your village?

12 A. Yes. Well, it was a daily occurrence, because it was a very big

13 village. Every five or ten days, they would expel a street - well, I

14 wouldn't call it a street, but a village road - and they would be coming

15 to houses and plundering daily.

16 Q. Did this plundering also include rounding up of livestock and

17 taking the livestock away?

18 A. Yes, of course.

19 Q. Witness, I'd like to draw your attention now to July of 1992.

20 Have you ever heard of the Intervention Platoon Zoran Karlica?

21 A. No. Prior to the 9th of July, I did not hear about that. It was

22 the first day that I saw soldiers with patches saying "Zoran Karlica

23 Intervention Platoon."

24 Q. Do you recall approximately when, what date or time frame that was

25 in, Witness?

Page 1788

1 A. When I saw soldiers with those patches, is that the question?

2 When was it that I saw them?

3 Q. Yes, please.

4 A. Yes. It was on the 9th of July.

5 Q. What did you see witnesses or -- excuse me. What did you see

6 these soldiers with patches doing in your village?

7 A. On the 9th of July, yes. The turn -- my street's turn came, and

8 those soldiers grouped us together, separated men from women and took us

9 down the village road to the Trnopolje camp. On the way, they ill-treated

10 people, took out people from the group and killed them.

11 Q. Witness, you indicated that the men were separated from the

12 women. When you were then marched down the street, which of those two

13 groups of people were being marched down the street?

14 A. Well, naturally, men. Men were separated and were escorted by

15 soldiers in the direction of the Trnopolje camp. And women went in

16 different direction.

17 Q. You indicated people were being mistreated. Can you briefly tell

18 the Court what type of mistreatment occurred?

19 A. Well, as we were on our way, we were beaten, made to sing songs,

20 and within two hours at that time, 26 persons were killed.

21 Q. What kind of songs were you forced to sing, Witness?

22 A. Well, those were songs such as, "Who is Saying" -- "Who is Lying

23 that Serbia is Small," "From Topola to Ravna Gora," and so on and so

24 forth. And there was also some songs by Halid Muslimovic, "The Gypsy

25 Girl," and the like.

Page 1789

1 Q. You indicated, Witness, that 26 people were killed. Can you tell

2 the Court what happened to those people?

3 A. Yes. During this transport to the camp, well, quite simply, those

4 soldiers who were escorting us would take out some individuals, not that

5 they knew them really, somebody had a cap on his head or a hat, or

6 something specific. They just say to that man, "You come out," and kill

7 him.

8 Q. How were these people killed, Witness?

9 A. Well, naturally, by gunshots.

10 Q. Witness, these people that were killed, do you know if they were

11 soldiers or were they also civilians?

12 A. They were all civilians.

13 Q. Were all of the people -- all of the men from your village who

14 were marched in the direction of Trnopolje camp, were they all civilians?

15 A. Yes. There were no soldiers.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, noting the time, before I move on to the

17 next area, perhaps this might be an appropriate time for a break.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. Witness H, we are going to take a

19 break of half an hour. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss

20 your evidence with anybody, and that includes members of the Prosecution

21 team. We will adjourn until 11.30.

22 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.35.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS:

Page 1790

1 Q. Witness, immediately before the break, you were testifying about

2 the men being marched toward the Trnopolje camp. Can you describe for us

3 what happened after you arrived at the Trnopolje camp, please?

4 A. The remaining survivors were lined up in front of the -- the hall

5 of the Culture Club Bratstvo at Trnopolje, and they kept us there for two

6 to three hours. It was raining. And we were mistreated there. We were

7 beaten.

8 Then they loaded us up in buses. In the back of the bus, there

9 was standing-room alone. And we went down -- across Petrov Gaj, down a

10 macadam road to Omarska. We stayed in -- on the bus for a while. They

11 wouldn't let us out. Nobody boarded buses to mistreat us or anything, we

12 just couldn't get out. Then we were transferred to Keraterm camp.

13 Q. Witness, do you recall the date and the approximate time that you

14 arrived at the Keraterm camp, please?

15 A. That was the night of the 9th to 10 July 1992. We arrive at

16 Keraterm camp at around 11.00 p.m.

17 Q. Witness, what happened to you and the other people on the bus upon

18 your arrival at Keraterm?

19 A. A soldier boarded the bus and told us to get out, that five men

20 from the rear section of the bus should go the -- come up front. And as

21 we were passing by him, he would hit us wherever he -- and as we were

22 dismounting, they just kept beating us. And when that was over, we came

23 to another spot which was a small hut or like a reception area. This is

24 where they took our documents from us and the valuables that we had on

25 us.

Page 1791

1 I personally was not beaten there. And just as I thought

2 everything was over, we were met by four soldiers, and they told me to

3 stop. One stepped on my feet and the two held me by arms and one of them

4 said, "What are you looking at us?" And he cursed my mother, and he said,

5 "We looked at you for 40 years." Then I got blows with a rifle butt and

6 the rifle barrel in my chest and stomach.

7 Then with the other people who had been beaten, I was lined up

8 alongside the wall of Keraterm. When this torture was over with, then

9 they ordered us to run to these halls. I did not know that this was

10 Keraterm camp until that time, until I entered a room or hall 2.

11 Q. Witness, the individuals that were beating the detainees upon

12 arrival, did you know any of those people that were doing the beating?

13 A. That night, I did not. It was night-time, and I only recognised a

14 person wearing a military camouflage uniform. He was -- his name was

15 Zvonko. He was a physical education teacher in a primary school called

16 16 May, and then he had transferred to Trnopolje.

17 Q. Were any of the other people that were doing the beating wearing

18 any kind of uniform, and if so, what type of uniform?

19 A. Yes. The person who beat us were wearing military camouflage

20 uniforms.

21 Q. Witness, you indicated that you were placed in Room 2. Can you

22 briefly describe for us the conditions in that room?

23 A. We were over 500 in this hall. The conditions, how shall I put

24 it? The hygienic and other were very poor. The people who had been there

25 before were -- looked exhausted and they were very -- they were -- they

Page 1792

1 looked emaciated, and they were beaten up. There was a terrible smell in

2 that hall.

3 Q. Was there a leader for that room?

4 A. Yes, yes, if you can call it that. There was a person who was

5 keeping the count of these men. He had lists.

6 Q. What was that person's name, if you remember?

7 A. Fehim Krupic, called Feha.

8 Q. Witness, did there come a time when you were at Keraterm that you

9 were taken for any kind of questioning or interrogation?

10 A. Yes. That was after my arrival at Keraterm, as I mentioned,

11 between 9th and 10th. About ten days later, I went to the area above hall

12 1 and they may have also stretched over hall 2, and I went there for

13 interrogation.

14 Q. Did anything happen to you while you were on your way to the

15 interrogation room? And if so, please tell us about that.

16 A. When I was climbing the stairs, I don't know if you can say that I

17 fared well. I only received one or two blows. When I entered the room, I

18 found three men there. One was in civilian clothes, and the other two in

19 military camouflage uniform. I recognised Mr. Simo Drljaca among them.

20 For two or three minutes, they didn't ask me anything. They just stared

21 at me. And then they asked me -- they asked me for my personal data, who

22 I was, when I was born. I gave them my name and date of birth. They

23 asked me my father's name. I told them. And they asked me where he was

24 working. I told him that he worked at the Bratstvo Cultural Club at

25 Trnopolje. At that point, one of these men whom I did not know kicked me

Page 1793

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Page 1794

1 from behind and said, "There is no more Bratstvo." Bratstvo means

2 brotherhood.

3 Q. Were you further mistreated at any time during the course of the

4 interrogation?

5 A. Yes. They took down information, who had what weapons. I did not

6 know anything about it. And as far as beating is concerned, I was slapped

7 several times, but they did not beat me on that occasion any more.

8 Q. Witness, I'd like to turn your attention now to the personnel in

9 the camp. Were you aware of any kind of organisational structure with

10 respect to the camp personnel? And if so, can you please describe that

11 for us?

12 A. I think that there was a structure. There was a commander of the

13 camp. There were shift commanders. So I think that there was a structure

14 there during my stay.

15 Q. Do you recall how many shifts there were at the Keraterm camp

16 while you were there?

17 A. I think that there were three shifts.

18 Q. Do you know who were in charge of those three shifts?

19 A. Yes. The commander of one shift was Kole; of another one, Kajin;

20 and a third one, Ustar or Fustar, I don't know exactly what his last name

21 was.

22 Q. And do you know who was the overall commander of the camp during

23 the time that you were there?

24 A. Yes. It was Dusko Sikirica, and for a period of time, briefly, it

25 was Kajin.

Page 1795

1 Q. Let's start with the person you identified as Kole. Did you know

2 him prior to the time that you arrived at the Keraterm camp?

3 A. Personally not. I knew him from town by sight.

4 Q. Do you recall approximately how many times you may have seen him

5 before you arrived at the camp?

6 A. Before I was detained at the Keraterm camp? Is that the

7 question?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. It was on a number of occasions in town. But I wasn't close to

10 him. I did not communicate with him. It was all just in passing.

11 Q. Do you recall where you may have seen him in passing in town, what

12 types of places you may have seen him?

13 A. Yes. I did see him in coffee bars, and on a number of occasions

14 in Prijedor at the railway station and bus station. I was living in a

15 village so I was there often and I saw him.

16 Q. Did you know his nickname prior to the time you arrived at

17 Keraterm?

18 A. No.

19 Q. After your arrival at Keraterm, did someone inform you as to his

20 nickname or name?

21 A. Yes. I heard that from the other inmates.

22 Q. Witness, approximately how long were you in the Keraterm camp?

23 A. I was there until the closure of the camp, which I think took

24 place on the 5th or 6th of August.

25 Q. So it would be fair to say that you were there for slightly longer

Page 1796

1 than three weeks?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. During the course of those three weeks, approximately how many

4 times did you see the person that was identified to you as Kole?

5 A. If we were allowed to go outside, I could see him every time when

6 his shift was on duty. So that meant, in effect, every other day or

7 however their shifts changed.

8 Q. Witness, do you think you would recognise the person that you knew

9 as Kole if you were to see him today?

10 MR. VUCICEVIC: Objection, Your Honours. There was no foundation,

11 sufficient foundation that was made, and before I make any further

12 comments, I respectfully ask you to exclude the witness so I can point out

13 the deficiencies.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: But you have already given us the basis of your

15 objection, which is a lack of foundation, and I am not in a position,

16 regrettably, to agree with that. I think the foundation has been laid.

17 The Prosecutor asked the witness how many times he saw the person Kole,

18 and he said he was in a position to see him virtually every other day.

19 So I don't agree with the objection that you have made.

20 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, the witness has testified that he had

21 seen him every other day or so in the camp, and there was no testimony on

22 who and how sufficient was that identification in the camp. And prior to

23 the camp, prior to the Keraterm, the witness being confined at Keraterm,

24 the places and times are so general that it could have been somebody else

25 that he had mistaken for Kole and then falsely identified him.

Page 1797

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have heard your objection, and we rule that

2 sufficient foundation has been laid.

3 Go ahead, Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS:

5 Q. Witness, do you think that you would recognise the person whom was

6 identified to you as Kole if you were to see him today?

7 A. I think that I would.

8 Q. Witness, I will ask you now to look around the courtroom, and if

9 the person that you know as Kole is present, if you would please indicate

10 that to the Court and tell us where in the courtroom he is sitting,

11 please.

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, objection. The witness has

13 testified, "I think I would." He's not sure. So he would be guessing. I

14 move that the identification be barred based on the witness' answer.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: We overrule the objection.

16 Go ahead, Mr. Mundis.

17 MR. MUNDIS:

18 Q. Witness, do you understand what I've asked you to do?

19 A. Yes, to point to the person whose name or nickname is Kole, and

20 then you told me to look around the room.

21 This is the gentleman, first to the right from -- to my right.

22 Q. Which row is the person that you've pointed out sitting in,

23 please?

24 A. In the second row.

25 Q. And from your right to the left, if you could please count the

Page 1798

1 seats and indicate the seat number of the person that you've identified,

2 please.

3 A. From right to left, in the first chair is a police officer, and

4 the second seat is a man wearing civilian clothes, whose name or nickname

5 is Kole.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'd asked that the record reflect the

7 witness has properly identified the accused Kolundzija.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

9 MR. MUNDIS:

10 Q. Witness, I'd like to turn your attention now to the next shift

11 commander that you identified, a person by the name of Kajin. Did you

12 know that person from before the time that you were in the Keraterm camp?

13 A. Yes, I did know him. That was a young man who did socialised with

14 us. He would come to Trnopolje. And he had a girlfriend. He had -- who

15 was a colleague, and to say her name, should I?

16 Q. That's not necessary, Witness.

17 A. He had a girlfriend, and he socialised with us. I even think he

18 had some family in Petkovics.

19 Q. Witness, approximately -- for approximately how long prior to the

20 time you were at Keraterm did you know this person Kajin?

21 A. I may have known him four or five years before.

22 Q. Can you briefly tell us what you mean when you say he socialised

23 with you? What did that entail?

24 A. Well, he liked to go to disco clubs and coffee bars, which I

25 frequented too. He wasn't a close friend, but we would meet in the

Page 1799

1 similar places.

2 Q. Did you know his name or nickname prior to the time you arrived at

3 Keraterm?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Witness, do you think you would recognise the person you knew as

6 Kajin if you were to see him again?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Witness, I would ask you to again look around the courtroom and if

9 the person that you know as Kajin is present, please indicate and describe

10 for the Court where he is sitting.

11 A. Yes. The person is present. I will again start from right to

12 left. It would be the fourth person from right to left.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'd ask that the witness has properly

14 identified the accused Dosen.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

16 MR. MUNDIS:

17 Q. Witness, let's turn now to the person that you've identified as

18 the commander of the camp. Can you please tell us whether you knew that

19 person prior to the time you arrived at the Keraterm camp?

20 A. I personally did not. I was not a close friend of him or I did

21 not know him, but I saw him at my friend's at Kamicani. He also went into

22 Kozarac. He had very good friends among Muslims.

23 Q. Did there come a time when you were in Keraterm that someone

24 identified this person to you as the commander of the camp?

25 A. Yes. I learned that from the inmates who were already there.

Page 1800

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Page 1801

1 They knew. Both shift leaders ...

2 Q. Witness, do you recall approximately how long it was after you had

3 arrived at Keraterm that the other inmates described the camp commander to

4 you or pointed him out to you?

5 A. Perhaps a few days later, two or three days.

6 Q. And during the time that you were at the Keraterm camp, did you

7 see the camp commander frequently?

8 A. Yes. I could see him almost daily, provided the circumstances

9 allowed, that is if we were not locked up in the halls, because we were,

10 for the most part, in the halls.

11 Q. Witness, do you think you would recognise the person that you came

12 to know as Sikirica if you were to see him today?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Witness, I would ask you to look around the courtroom, and if the

15 person that was described to you as Sikirica, the commander of the camp,

16 is present, please indicate to us where he is sitting.

17 A. I will start again as before from right to left. It is the

18 first -- the fifth person from right to left.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'd ask the record reflect that the

20 witness has properly identified the accused Sikirica.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

22 MR. MUNDIS:

23 Q. Witness, let's talk now about guards at the Keraterm camp. Did

24 you know any of the guards at the Keraterm camp prior to the time you

25 arrived there?

Page 1802

1 A. Yes. I also knew them from town. The Banovic brothers, Predrag

2 and Nenad. Their father was my teacher in the Rade Kondic elementary

3 school in Kozarac. I also knew a number of other people by sight whom --

4 whose name I would not be able to tell, that is until I got there.

5 Q. Witness, do you recall which shift the Banovic brothers were on

6 during the time that you were at the Keraterm camp?

7 A. Yes. They were in Kajin's shift.

8 Q. Witness, were there also other individuals who would -- who were

9 not guards at the camp but who would nevertheless visit the camp and

10 mistreat the detainees?

11 A. Yes. There were persons who would enter the camp and mistreat

12 people.

13 Q. Do you recall the names or nicknames of any of those individuals?

14 A. Yes. Duca, Ziga, Faca.

15 Q. Witness, do you know an individual by the name of Emsud Bahonjic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you see that person in the Keraterm camp?

18 A. Yes. He was killed.

19 Q. Can you describe for the court the circumstances surrounding his

20 death, please?

21 A. He was taken out several times to be beaten. He was beaten up.

22 And he was all broken up. They were calling him out under some nickname,

23 and he died in hall 2 from the consequences of these beatings. He was

24 broken up.

25 Q. Witness, do you recall the nickname that they used when they

Page 1803

1 called Emsud Bahonjic out of the room?

2 A. Yes. They said the policeman from Kozarac; that's how they called

3 him out.

4 Q. Was Emsud Bahonjic a policeman from Kozarac prior to the time that

5 he was detained at Keraterm?

6 A. No, no, never. I was not involved in politics, but there was

7 Territorial Defence before the war and they had their own police, and he

8 was a member of that police force. That police force were wearing similar

9 uniforms as the regular police at that time.

10 Q. Witness, do you know what Emsud Bahonjic was beaten with?

11 A. Why, yes, they beat him with batons, cables of all sorts, rods,

12 rifle butts.

13 Q. Where did this beating occur at the Keraterm camp?

14 A. Well, when they took him out at night, they took him somewhere. I

15 think there was a room next to halls 3 and 4 where they beat those

16 people. And once they also took him out in daytime, and they beat him

17 from the entrance into hall 2 to the leftward, where there was a small

18 room used for bread slicing, used to slice bread which we were given to

19 eat.

20 Q. Do you know who it was that beat Emsud Bahonjic?

21 A. Oh, it was Banovics, Ziga, and at night, I wouldn't know.

22 Q. Witness, you've testified that he was beaten on several

23 occasions. Do you know over a period of how long these beatings took

24 place?

25 A. Yes. During my stay, what I know. He was the first one to die.

Page 1804

1 And they took him out twice. But before that, I think they had left him

2 alone for two or three days so that he would recover, and then they

3 started it again.

4 Q. Do you know which shifts were on duty at the time Emsud Bahonjic

5 was beaten?

6 A. On that occasion that I know of, when I said that the Banovics

7 were involved, it was Kajin's shift.

8 Q. Can you describe any of the injuries that you saw on Emsud

9 Bahonjic after he was beaten?

10 A. Yes. He had injuries on his head, his arm was broken, and so on

11 and so forth. He had bruises around his ribs.

12 Q. Do you know if Emsud Bahonjic was offered any type of medical

13 treatment?

14 A. No, not he.

15 Q. Witness, do you know a person by the name of Turkanovic?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. Did you see that person in the Keraterm camp?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Can you describe for the court what happened to Turkanovic in

20 Keraterm?

21 A. That man had very characteristic red hair, and once Bane called

22 him out and said, "You, redhead, come out," and killed him with a baseball

23 bat.

24 Q. Did you witness this happening? Did you see this happening?

25 A. Yes. It was by daylight. He took him out, and since the door had

Page 1805

1 bars, the door was open, so that we could have some air.

2 Q. Do you know who it was that did this to Turkanovic?

3 A. Yes. Banovic, called Cupo, Bane. I believe he is Predrag. There

4 were two brothers, Predrag and Nenad.

5 Q. Did you see what type of injuries Turkanovic received as a result

6 of this beating, and if so, can you please describe them for the Court?

7 A. Yes. His head. He had injuries to his head, and he died a short

8 while later because he was beaten on the head. That is what I could see.

9 Q. Witness, do you recall where in the Keraterm camp Turkanovic

10 died?

11 A. Why, yes, because it was also -- as I have said already, it was

12 more or less on the same place where they had beaten up the previous

13 gentleman, Emsud. Next to hall 2.

14 Q. Witness, do you know a person by the name of Fikret Avdic?

15 A. Yes. He was a waiter. He used to work for Cuiko coffee bar near

16 the railway station in Prijedor.

17 Q. Did you see Fikret Avdic in the Keraterm camp during the time that

18 you were there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us what happened to Fikret Avdic in Keraterm?

21 A. Once, and it was evening, he was called out. "Come on, Fikro,

22 you. Come out, you, Fikro." They called out several times, and he

23 responded. They told him he had a very nice name and last name. They

24 took him out, and one could hear moans and sobs. And after a time, they

25 brought him in front of hall 2 and told the inmates to carry him in. And

Page 1806

1 he was at the top of hall 2. He was unconscious because he had been

2 injured very badly, at least that is what I think. He was vomiting blood

3 and water. He couldn't eat anything or speak. And in the morning, in the

4 morning we took him out on a blanket in front of the hall and that is

5 where he died. And they transferred him a bit higher up, moved him beyond

6 Room 4 where there were dustbins, and that is where the bodies were taken

7 out and away.

8 Q. Witness, do you know which shift was on duty when Fikret Avdic was

9 killed?

10 A. I think that it was Mr. Kajin's shift once again.

11 Q. Witness, do you know an individual by the name of Saban Elezovic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see him in the Keraterm camp?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. Did you see him being mistreated at any time while you were in the

16 Keraterm camp?

17 A. I did. I did, yes.

18 Q. Can you describe that for us, please?

19 A. He was taken out several times. He was one of the better of

20 people in my locality, I should say, one of the wealthier men in Prijedor

21 as a whole. He was taken out several times and beaten, questioned about

22 money and cars, and his arms were broken. I do not know exactly, but I

23 think that on one occasion, Mr. Kajin, how, I don't know, took him to the

24 hospital, and he returned with a plaster cast.

25 Q. Do you know which shift was on duty when Saban Elezovic was

Page 1807

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Page 1808

1 beaten?

2 A. He was taken out on various occasions. I'm not sure whether it

3 was Fustar's shift and Kole's shift and Kajin's too, but when he was

4 killed, it was Banovics who did it. They beat him up and he succumbed.

5 Q. Witness, do you know a person by the name of Mesic and did you see

6 that person in Keraterm?

7 A. I did. I wouldn't know his first name, but his last name was

8 Mesic. He was in Keraterm.

9 Q. Did you see Mesic being mistreated during the time you were in

10 Keraterm, and if so, can you please describe that for us?

11 A. Yes. Well, we were outside once. He was a middle-aged man. And

12 I don't know why it was that they forced us to get back inside quickly.

13 And he just hesitated for a moment and was struck with a baseball bat on

14 the head so that his skull was fractured. He somehow made it to the hall

15 and there he died.

16 Q. Do you know who was responsible for this beating? Who beat

17 Mr. Mesic?

18 A. Well, there in the camp, his beating -- there was Faca also too,

19 but Banovics. There was Ziga.

20 Q. Witness, do you recall an incident when Ziga fired a pistol into

21 your room?

22 A. I do.

23 Q. Can you tell us about that incident, please?

24 A. Well, he came on that occasion and said verbatim, "Turks, balijas,

25 Ziga's come to visit you. You're balijas number two." And we all tried

Page 1809

1 to escape to the bottom of the room because we knew what would happen, and

2 we were all one on top of the other. He took out his pistol and fired at

3 the ceiling, and it ricochetted and hit this man in the leg. Another

4 inmate said that the man -- "The man is wounded," so -- and he said then,

5 "So what? His throat should be then slit so that he does not suffer."

6 Q. Do you recall who it was that said his throat has to be slit so he

7 wouldn't suffer? Who said that?

8 A. Well, Zigic.

9 Q. Do you recall the name of the person who was hit by the

10 ricochetted bullet?

11 A. No, not quite, but I think he came from somewhere in Jakupovici or

12 something. I didn't really know him because there were so many of us.

13 Q. Witness, prior to the incident that's been described as the Room 3

14 massacre, did you hear gunshots on any other occasions while you were at

15 Keraterm after Zigic fired the pistol?

16 A. Yes. There were gunshots.

17 Q. Did you see any of the detainees being shot prior to the Room 3

18 massacre while you were in the Keraterm camp?

19 A. Excuse me, are you asking me was somebody killed in Room 3 or

20 before that?

21 Q. Before that.

22 A. Yes. Was somebody killed in Room 3 or outside Room 3? That is

23 what I don't understand.

24 Q. Witness, do you recall a detainee being shot while he was on the

25 way to the toilet?

Page 1810

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you please describe that incident for the Court?

3 A. Yes. We were in Room -- in hall 2 with a big door, and I was next

4 to the door, and I could look through the bars because there were no

5 windows. And the gentleman, Mr. Sikirica, was there. And the man was

6 going to the toilet, and from about 20 or 30 metres, he killed him with a

7 pistol. He fired at him two or three times. The man fell. And then he

8 came up and put his foot on his head, and then he passed by hall number

9 2. And after a while, he took a car and left the camp in -- and I don't

10 know in which direction.

11 Q. Witness, you testified that he killed him with a pistol. Who

12 fired the pistol?

13 A. Well, I said it already, that it was Mr. Sikirica who fired the

14 pistol.

15 Q. Witness, do you know who the victim of that shooting was? Did you

16 know the person who was shot?

17 A. No. He had blue jeans, a T-shirt and sneakers. I didn't know

18 him. I think -- I think he came from so-called Brdo area, that is

19 Hambarine, Ristanovici, that area.

20 Q. Witness, can you tell us about the conditions in Room 3 prior to

21 the arrival of the individuals from Brdo?

22 A. Well, that hall 3 was next to the lavatories or the toilets. In

23 those toilets, there was urine some ten centimetres deep, and it leaked

24 into hall 3 and the stench was horrible.

25 Q. Do you recall a time when a large number of men arrived from

Page 1811

1 the -- from the Brdo area? And if so, can you tell us approximately when

2 that was?

3 A. Well, I think it was sometime on the 17th, 18th, maybe the 19th,

4 August, when people got there. They were lying down on the pista, and

5 they were mistreated.

6 Q. Witness, for clarification, which month was that?

7 A. July.

8 Q. Can you tell the Court what shift was on duty when these people

9 from Brdo arrived?

10 A. When they arrived? I think it was Fustar's shift when they

11 arrived.

12 Q. Can you describe for the Court what happened to these people when

13 they first arrived, in their first few days in Keraterm camp?

14 A. They were locked, incarcerated in hall 3. Those -- for three or

15 four days, those men were not given any food, they were not let out.

16 Q. Can you describe for us the events that occurred on the day of the

17 massacre in Room 3, starting from, say, 6.00 p.m. in the evening that

18 day?

19 A. Well, as of 6.00 that afternoon, I couldn't really tell you

20 because I had no watch, but shifts were changing and Mr. Kole with his

21 guards came on and then it started. Some moves -- we were inside in hall

22 number 2, and there were those weapons which were there. And after a

23 while, one could hear voices, noises. One could hear some vehicles coming

24 into the camp, shouts, singing. And those men who were locked there, they

25 were already in such a bad shape that one could hear the noise they were

Page 1812

1 making. And around 11.00 or 12.00 at night, gunfire started. One could

2 hear moans and sobbing. I am not sure but I think that I heard Kole's

3 voice, saying to those men, "Who is going to account for this?" And told

4 them not to open fire on other halls because those people were not

5 responsible. But the gunfire went on until 4.00 or 5.00 in the morning,

6 when it died out.

7 Q. Witness, can you tell us what kind of gunfire you heard that

8 evening?

9 A. Why, yes, from firearms, one could hear both individual shots and

10 rounds of fire.

11 Q. Witness, do you recall any of the smells or odours that were in

12 the camp on that evening?

13 A. Yes. One could smell something like tear gas. Tear gas was

14 thrown at them because it has a specific smell, and of course it itches

15 your eyes and the mucous and the nerves.

16 Q. The following morning, Witness, were you able to see anything out

17 of your room with respect to Room 3?

18 A. Yes. They would not let us go out to the lavatory, and then

19 eventually they let us go there one by one. And in front of hall 3, I saw

20 several bodies. But I was really running because that is how I had to go

21 to the lavatory and back. I could not see the interior of hall 3.

22 Q. Did there come a time when anything was done with respect to

23 removing the bodies? And if so, can you please tell us about that?

24 A. Yes. Yes. Sometime around 8.00, the shift commander of that

25 morning shift, Kajin's shift, came in front of hall 2 and asked, "Who will

Page 1813

1 come out?" His truck had arrived. "Who will come to load those men on

2 the truck?" Because men had been massacred, killed by those firearms, and

3 that he was guaranteeing that the men who came out on that occasion would

4 also return to hall 2, that they would not be killed.

5 Q. Can you describe for us the loading of the truck that morning?

6 A. Two men from my room went to do it. I knew them. Hazim Sivac and

7 Bahrija Sivac. They threw those men onto that truck, onto a

8 trailer - what do you call it? - and there was blood running down the

9 sides of the truck.

10 Q. What happened to the truck?

11 A. As they were -- after they were loaded, the truck left in an

12 unknown direction.

13 Q. Did you ever see that truck again?

14 A. Yes. It came back in the afternoon, and then it was washed in the

15 camp compound. One could observe on the wheels of that truck something

16 like red slag.

17 Q. Had you ever seen red slag like that before?

18 A. Why, yes. There, in the vicinity of Prijedor, we had those open

19 cast mines, Omarska, Tomasica, and this reddish earth was there.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mundis, I don't think there's been any evidence

21 about this. Have any of these bodies been recovered or not?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, there will be evidence presented on that

23 matter later in the trial.

24 JUDGE MAY: Where were they recovered from?

25 MR. MUNDIS: There were -- Your Honour, there were, to the best of

Page 1814

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Page 1815

1 my recollection, three or four sites from which bodies were recovered. We

2 have reports from expert witnesses on this matter, which will be hopefully

3 introduced later in the trial or pursuant to 94 bis.

4 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

5 MR. MUNDIS:

6 Q. Witness, let me just ask you a question about Hazim Sivac and

7 Bahrija Sivac, the two men from your room who loaded the truck. Did you

8 ever see them again?

9 A. Yes. Those men did return to Room number 2.

10 Q. Did they tell you anything about the number of bodies that they

11 loaded onto the truck?

12 A. Yes. They said precisely that those men had been massacred and

13 that they thought there were between 160 to 200 men, because amongst those

14 men there were also -- there were also some wounded who were taken in that

15 same truck who had survived the massacre, and I believe they had been

16 wounded.

17 Q. Witness, were there -- to your knowledge, were there other

18 individuals who survived the Room 3 massacre without being wounded?

19 A. I think that some did survive. There could have been four or five

20 of them who were then put in different rooms and who happened to be under

21 those bodies and who had been only lightly wounded and, therefore, did not

22 report.

23 Q. Witness, are you aware of another incident where a guard named

24 Faca shot a prisoner in the Keraterm camp, and if so, can you please

25 describe that for us?

Page 1816

1 A. Yes. In the room where we were, at the very entrance to the room

2 there was a barrel where we relieved ourselves, and one night, a man who

3 was on that barrel was killed. This man called Faca came in, and he said,

4 "Are you a policeman from Kozarac," or, "Are you from Brdo," or something

5 like that, and from a distance of two or three metres, he shot at the

6 man. And the man just moaned and said, "Oh, you killed me," and he

7 dropped dead there.

8 Q. Witness, in the final days before the Keraterm camp was --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, is he able to say on whose shift that

10 incident occurred?

11 MR. MUNDIS:

12 Q. Witness, do you know which shift was on duty when this man was

13 shot?

14 A. The night when he was killed, I think it was Kajin's shift.

15 Q. Now, Witness, in the final days before the Keraterm camp was

16 closed, were there other incidents when you personally were mistreated at

17 the Keraterm camp, and, if so, can you please describe those for the

18 Court?

19 A. Yes. On one occasion - I think it was on the 19th or the 30th of

20 July, just before the closure of the Keraterm camp, four or five days - I

21 went to get -- fill some water, and Cupo Banovic was there. He asked me,

22 "Where are you going?" And I said, "To fill some water." And he said,

23 "Do you know that we -- you have to pay for water?" And I said I didn't

24 have any money. Then he took off his shoes and started beating me with

25 them over my head. He broke my nose.

Page 1817

1 And meanwhile, at the gate, Kajin, who was the shift commander,

2 arrived on a small motorcycle. At that point, he pulled a knife and

3 wanted to stab me in my left side. I instinctively raised my arms, and he

4 cut me across my left arm 10 to 13 centimetres. I could see my bone. And

5 he said, "Go back to the room." Then later on he called me out, but I did

6 not respond.

7 Also, on another occasion, he beat me up. He knocked out the

8 front tooth on my upper jaw. I had -- my lips and my jaw were injured.

9 Q. Witness, do you have any scar from the time when you were stabbed

10 in the Keraterm camp?

11 A. Yes. I still have the scars, and the scars on my lips are still

12 there and my tooth is still broken.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, with the permission of the court, I

14 would ask the witness to pull up his shirt sleeve and show the court the

15 scar which remains from the stabbing incident.

16 MR. VUCICEVIC: Objection, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic is on his feet. Yes,

18 Mr. Vucicevic?

19 MR. VUCICEVIC: We certainly do not dispute that it occurred, and

20 I don't think it would be any need for theatrics, as Your Honour observed

21 earlier.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think we need this evidence.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Witness, you testified earlier that the camp closed on

25 approximately the 5th or 6th of August, 1992. Can you tell us what

Page 1818

1 happened on that day?

2 A. In the morning, Messrs. Kajin and Sikirica were both there, and

3 they arrived to the area between halls 1 and 2 and they said, "Those men

4 whose names we will read out will be transferred to the Omarska camp. The

5 remainder of the men will be taken in buses to Trnopolje camp." Then the

6 list was read of the men, who would then step out, and as they were

7 boarding buses, they were being beaten. These buses went, and from what I

8 heard from other people, they were taken to Omarska and nothing is known

9 of these men. It was two bus loads of men. And the other inmates of

10 Keraterm camp, 12 or 13 bus loads were transferred to Trnopolje camp. I

11 was in these buses that were going from Orlovci, Garici to Trnopolje. Two

12 or three buses went along the main Prijedor-Banja Luka highway, and they

13 took that route. But later on, these buses also arrived at Trnopolje

14 camp.

15 Q. Witness, do you recall who read out the names on the lists of

16 which person would go to which camp?

17 A. I think that it was Mr. Sikirica who read those names.

18 Q. And it's correct that you were on one of the buses that went to

19 the Trnopolje camp; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you briefly tell us what the conditions were like in Trnopolje

22 when you arrived there?

23 A. Unlike Keraterm camp, the conditions were better. When we arrived

24 there, they locked us up. I personally left the Keraterm camp weighing

25 48, 49 kilograms. I could not walk on my own power. They unloaded us

Page 1819

1 within the perimeter which was fenced. They did not allow us to contact

2 -- to make contact with other people in Trnopolje camp.

3 Q. Witness, you indicated when you left Keraterm you weighed 48 or 49

4 kilograms. How much did you weigh when you first arrived at Keraterm?

5 A. I weighed 67 kilograms, and that was my normal weight.

6 Q. Witness, while were you in Trnopolje, did you see any prisoners

7 being badly treated or killed?

8 A. Yes. There were murders committed.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, Prosecution has no further questions for

10 this witness at this time, but I would like to simply make a clarification

11 with respect to the question that Judge May asked earlier. With the

12 benefit of the technology that we have available in the courtroom, I have

13 received indications from another member of our team that although we will

14 have evidence with respect to three or four sites where bodies were

15 recovered, we have been unable to link any of those bodies to the bodies

16 that were taken away from Room 3 in the aftermath of the massacre. So I

17 simply wanted to clarify that, that we have not been able to link any of

18 the bodies that we have recovered to -- specifically to the Room 3

19 massacre.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

21 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours? If I may, objection. Since the

22 Prosecutor has presented the evidence on the colour of the trucks after

23 the bodies were taken away, that testimony presents simple conjecture, and

24 at this time I move that all that testimony about the colours and possible

25 locations be stricken from the record.

Page 1820

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is a matter which we will assess. I mean,

2 that's our function. We will assess that evidence and make what we will

3 of it.

4 Mr. Greaves?

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

6 MR. GREAVES: Yes. May we go into private session, please, for a

7 moment?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

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9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 MR. GREAVES:

12 Q. Witness H, when you made your statement to the Office of the

13 Prosecutor in January, 1995, you were interviewed by somebody called

14 Thomas Ackheim, and there were two interpreters present; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. There was somebody else present at that interview, wasn't there?

17 A. Right now, I cannot recall. I know that there were two

18 interpreters.

19 Q. Somebody called Mohamed Susic? Do you remember that?

20 A. I think so, yes.

21 Q. Who was Mohamed Susic, Witness H?

22 A. I am unable to tell you that. I don't know the man.

23 Q. Was he someone from the Bosnian army supervising what you were

24 telling the Office of the Prosecutor?

25 A. No.

Page 1823

1 Q. Could we turn now, please, to some of the events in June 1992,

2 please. The people who were buried in the graveyard near to your home,

3 you did not know either their names or the ethnicity of those people, did

4 you?

5 A. Yes. Four bodies, as I stated, arrived in plastic bags, and I

6 also stated that I was forced, because my house was there, to also bury

7 people from Trnopolje. I knew some of those people's names, but those in

8 June, those names I did not know.

9 Q. Isn't this right, that when the bodies were brought to the

10 graveyard, they were in black plastic bags and, therefore, you were not on

11 any occasion able to see who was inside?

12 A. No. We could not see.

13 Q. Do you recall making a statement to the Bosnian authorities on the

14 3rd of November, 1994?

15 A. No. To the Bosnian authorities?

16 Q. Yes. The 3rd of November, 1994.

17 A. No.

18 MR. GREAVES: May we just go into private session again, please.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

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Page 1824

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12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are now in open session.

14 MR. GREAVES:

15 Q. Why didn't you mention the names of the people you were able to

16 identify to the Bosnian authorities then, Witness H?

17 A. I think that I did mention the names. Hrnic Himzo, Safet

18 Kararic. That those names are there because I knew these men. I was able

19 to recognise them.

20 Q. Will you help us about this, please? The intervention platoon

21 which had the name Karlica, was that named for a former commander of that

22 unit who had been killed during fighting in Prijedor in either April or

23 May 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you know the name of the commander at the time when they came

Page 1826

1 to your location?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Or his ethnicity?

4 A. Well, the soldiers who came there were of Serbian faith. They

5 were Serbs.

6 Q. There was a group of people who were killed at that time by five

7 or six soldiers. Were they part of the intervention platoon?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In total, how many people were detained with you at the same

10 time?

11 A. Is that in reference to the Keraterm camp, how many people were

12 detained in Room 2?

13 Q. When you were first detained in Trnopolje and taken away, how many

14 people were detained with you?

15 A. That was during the transportation, when they transported us. My

16 street was about one kilometre long, and there was some refugees there.

17 We were up to 60, 70. And when we joined the other road, they -- other

18 people from Durici, Elezi and other streets joined us. And when we

19 arrived at Trnopolje, the whole transport numbered up to 200 people.

20 Q. And were those all men, Witness H?

21 A. Yes. There were some who were elderly, and there were some who

22 were underage.

23 Q. Have you been discussing what evidence has been given before this

24 Tribunal with anybody else, who either has or is about to give evidence,

25 Witness H?

Page 1827

1 A. No.

2 Q. You anticipated, I suggest, my next question, which was to be

3 about the age of the people who were detained with you. How did you know

4 that that was going to be part of the questioning?

5 A. No, I did not know that, but this is how I stated it. I wanted to

6 point out that there were people of different ages, that there were people

7 who were above 60 and 70, and then there were minors among them, too,

8 because they collected everyone, all males, regardless of age, everybody

9 who was over 15 or 14.

10 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I'm going to move to another topic in a

11 moment, and I think it's now 1.00.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness H, we are going to take the adjournment

13 until 1.30. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence

14 with anybody, including members of the Prosecution team. We are

15 adjourned.

16 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, if I may address the court before

17 you retire for lunch, but just after the witness walks out because there

18 is a logistical matter that is very timely sensitive, nothing to do with

19 what transpired today, but I would just like to bring it to your

20 attention.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let the witness be escorted. After the

22 witness has been escorted out, we will hear from Mr. Vucicevic.

23 Mr. Greaves?

24 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour said that we would be adjourned until

25 1.30. Did you actually mean that?

 

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Page 1829

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. 2.30.

2 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I wouldn't rob you of that time.

4 MR. VUCICEVIC: And if we could be just in a closed session

5 because I don't know whether the identities of the people I am going to

6 mention have been so far disclosed.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Closed session.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

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25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.

Page 1831

1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m. [Open Session]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

3 MR. GREAVES:

4 Q. Witness H, having been detained along with other people, you were

5 taken first to Omarska in buses. It's right, isn't it, that you were kept

6 there for two hours before going on to Keraterm? Do you accept that?

7 A. They kept us. For how long I don't know, maybe two or four hours.

8 Q. And were you turned away from Omarska because Omarska was found,

9 at the end of that period, to be full and, therefore, there was no

10 capacity to take your group?

11 A. I had no way of knowing that.

12 Q. In the statement which you made to the Bosnian authorities in

13 November 1994, you told them this: "They took us in buses to Omarska

14 camp, but we were not admitted there because the camp was already full."

15 So you plainly new in 1994 the reason you couldn't go to Omarska,

16 didn't you, Witness H?

17 A. No, I did not know the reason.

18 Q. If you didn't know the reason, why did you claim to the Bosnian

19 authorities that you did know the reason?

20 A. I did not claim it before the Bosnian authorities. I never made

21 such a statement.

22 Q. Let's turn now to your interrogation, Witness H. You've told us

23 that three people were present during that, one of whom was Simo Drljaca.

24 How was Simo Drljaca dressed when he interrogated you?

25 A. The gentleman was in a uniform. He had a uniform, a

Page 1832

1 blue, olive-green/blue one, the camouflage uniform, the police uniform.

2 Q. So specifically the police uniform, not a military uniform?

3 A. Police, military, and civilian during my interrogation, and I said

4 that quite clearly.

5 Q. There was a second man in military clothing. Did you know him at

6 all?

7 A. No.

8 Q. The third man was dressed in civilian clothing. Did you know that

9 person at all?

10 A. Yes. No. No, I didn't.

11 Q. Which is it, Witness H, you did or you didn't know him?

12 A. I knew Mr. Simo Drljaca. The man in the military uniform and the

13 civilian I did not know, and I did not say that.

14 Q. Which of the three men asked you the questions, Simo Drljaca, the

15 other man in military clothing, or the civilian?

16 A. They were cross-examining me, all of them.

17 Q. So all three men asked you questions. Can you explain then,

18 please, why it is you told the Office of the Prosecutor: "The man in

19 camouflage uniform looked at me and Drljaca started to question me. He

20 asked me questions about my personal background and my previous military

21 experience"? Why did you say it was Simo Drljaca who questioned you and

22 not that you were cross-examined by the three?

23 A. I said clearly, when I entered that room, for a while they did not

24 interrogate me. They just stared at me.

25 Q. Apart from the men who interrogated you, did you know the name of

Page 1833

1 any other person who was involved in interrogating witnesses?

2 A. I said that there were three men, and of them all, I knew Simo

3 Drljaca.

4 Q. Sorry. I asked that question badly. Used the word "witnesses"

5 when I shouldn't have done so. I'll ask it again.

6 Apart from the men who interrogated you, Witness H, did you know

7 the name of any other person who was involved in interrogating other

8 detainees?

9 A. No. I had no access to other rooms where prisoners were

10 interrogated.

11 Q. So the only people -- in fact, the only person of whom you knew

12 the name who was involved in any way in interrogating any detainee is the

13 man Simo Drljaca; is that the position?

14 A. Well, naturally. Until that interrogation, we were escorted by

15 guards who were there in those rooms.

16 Q. Why did you tell the Bosnian authorities in November, 1994, then,

17 this? "The interrogators were from Prijedor. They were accompanied by

18 Simo Drljaca, chief of the SJP Public Security Station in Prijedor, and

19 Slavko Torbica, a.k.a. Cune from Sanicani, a member of the special police

20 unit from Banja Luka"? Why were you able then to give a name when you say

21 now that you didn't know the names of anybody else?

22 A. I did not say that. All I said was that that gentleman who worked

23 at Sanicani used to come to the Keraterm camp.

24 Q. Which of the three men in the room beat you? Was it Drljaca, the

25 civilian or the man in the -- the other man in military clothing, Witness

Page 1834

1 H?

2 A. I was beaten -- well, not beaten but, as I said, kicked me so that

3 I fell off that chair and slapped me a couple of times, and that was done

4 by the man in the military uniform.

5 Q. Apart from giving statements to the Bosnian authorities and a

6 written statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you were interviewed,

7 were you not, before making the statement to the Office of the Prosecutor

8 by a representative of the OTP? Do you remember that?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you not say at some stage to some representative of the Office

11 of the Prosecutor that you were only interrogated by two men?

12 A. No. I said clearly that there were three men. One stared at me

13 at the beginning and asked me nothing and then they cross-examined me.

14 Q. Can you describe to us the offices where these interrogations took

15 place, Witness H?

16 A. I cannot describe those offices. I can describe the office that I

17 was in.

18 Q. Tell us what it looked like, then, Witness H.

19 A. As you enter that room, to the left and there were two or three

20 desks where those three men were, and the chair that I sat on was a metre

21 and something from the door and also about one metre from the wall, facing

22 those men.

23 Q. Was this the only occasion when you saw Simo Drljaca in Keraterm?

24 A. Yes. Well, people were interrogated every day. A minibus would

25 come to bring them in.

Page 1835

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Page 1836

1 Q. You've just told us that this was the only occasion on which you

2 saw Simo Drljaca in Keraterm. Why did you tell the Office of the

3 Prosecutor in January 1995 that you saw him about ten times in the camp,

4 Witness H?

5 A. I did not say now that I only saw him once. I only said that I

6 personally saw him in that room when he interrogated me. Mr. Drljaca

7 would come in that van, in that van there, and that is how I could see

8 him.

9 Q. Did you become aware, or did you know of your own knowledge, that

10 it was Simo Drljaca who made decisions about where detainees would be

11 sent?

12 A. No. I couldn't know that he was the one who decided about those

13 things, and who made those decisions.

14 Q. Did you know of somebody at the camp on the staff called Zivko

15 Knezevic?

16 A. I knew people's nicknames and their faces, and I've already said

17 those whom I knew personally, so to tell you who Zivko Knezevic was, I

18 can't.

19 Q. We've heard from other witnesses that a new commander arrived at

20 the camp sometime around the 27th of July, 1992. Were you aware of that,

21 Witness H?

22 A. The new commander arrived on the 27th of July? Well, I said that

23 I arrived there on the 9th of July, and that one, if you mean

24 Mr. Sikirica, he was already there.

25 Q. No, Witness H. We do not mean Sikirica. It's right, isn't it,

Page 1837

1 that a new commander arrived around the 27th of July, shortly before you

2 left Keraterm? Do you accept that?

3 A. I don't know which new commander you have in mind.

4 Q. You told Their Honours this morning, in relation to Dusko

5 Sikirica, that you were told within two or three days of arriving who he

6 was.

7 A. I said that clearly, that I had heard it from people who had been

8 detained there before me.

9 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, just give me a moment, please.

10 Q. How could that be, Witness H, if according to you in your

11 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, he didn't even arrive at the

12 camp for seven to ten days after your arrival?

13 A. I did not say that. When I arrived in the camp, I said that

14 from some people who were already there, heard that the camp commander was

15 Mr. Sikirica.

16 Q. Witness H, let me just give you and remind you a little bit of the

17 detail of what you said to the Office of the Prosecutor and put into your

18 written statement that you made in January 1995.

19 You spoke of the commander of the camp when you first arrived,

20 someone you knew because you knew his grandparents, and you said this:

21 "Seven to ten days after my arrival, he was replaced by Sikirica. I did

22 not know him from before, but I was told by other prisoners that he worked

23 at the railroad company in Prijedor."

24 That's what you were saying in January 1995. Why did you say that

25 if it isn't true?

Page 1838

1 A. I said it quite clearly, that upon my arrival, not seven or ten

2 days, that there was Mr. Damir Dosen Kajin and that he was replaced - that

3 is what my statement says - because he had been taking some people to the

4 hospital and those people were coming back alive and that his place was

5 taken by Mr. Sikirica.

6 Q. Do you understand, Witness H, that in that statement, you were

7 telling the Prosecutor that Sikirica did not even arrive to take over as

8 commander until seven to ten days after your arrival? And the point is

9 this: How could you then be told, within two or three days of your

10 arrival, that Sikirica was the commander? Please explain the difference

11 between those two things. Their Honours might like to know.

12 A. I said clearly that when I arrived at the camp in Keraterm there

13 was Mr. Dosen, that he was replaced by Mr. Sikirica. And if it says up to

14 ten days, well, it could be a slip. What I heard from the inmates, in two

15 or three days, that Mr. Sikirica was the commander.

16 Q. And the information, so that we can just get this clear, that you

17 were given by other prisoners also included the information that the man

18 you were told was Sikirica had worked at the railway company; is that

19 correct?

20 A. As I said, I did not know the gentleman personally. I wasn't his

21 friend or something. But I knew him from Kozarac because he used to go

22 there. And personally that I stated that he worked for a railway company,

23 no. I said I think he worked there.

24 Q. Why didn't you tell the Office of the Prosecutor in January 1995

25 that you'd seen this man before the war?

Page 1839

1 A. Perhaps nobody asked me that. Because I did not know the man

2 personally.

3 Q. You were telling the Office of the Prosecutor you didn't know this

4 man from before the war, weren't you, and this is something you've simply

5 made up in the meantime?

6 A. But I did not say that I had never seen him.

7 Q. The person that you knew as Dusko Sikirica in Keraterm, what did

8 he look like? Just describe him, age, height, build, those sort of

9 things.

10 A. Well, the gentleman is about my height. He was -- well, perhaps

11 he had some more weight than now, and he had a moustache.

12 Q. How old was he?

13 A. Well, I cannot say for sure, but he must -- I'd say that he was

14 born sometime around 1964. 1963, 1964. I have no way of knowing it.

15 Perhaps slightly older.

16 Q. And just tell us something about his -- your height so that we can

17 measure your estimate of his height. How tall are you, Witness H?

18 A. A hundred and sixty-seven, eight centimetres.

19 Q. The man that you've described, was he always armed or sometimes

20 armed or never armed?

21 A. That person always carried a pistol.

22 Q. Just an ordinary semi-automatic pistol of the kind that most

23 military men carry?

24 A. I think it was a bigger pistol than the ordinary ones.

25 Q. You've described the killing of somebody by the man you have

Page 1840

1 called Sikirica and that he drove off after the event, went off after the

2 event. What sort of vehicle did he leave in?

3 A. I think I said that the vehicle was --

4 THE INTERPRETER: We apologise. We could not hear the end of the

5 sentence.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness H, would you repeat the answer. The

7 interpreter didn't get all of it.

8 A. I think that the gentleman left in a -- in a white Golf.

9 MR. GREAVES:

10 Q. Let's just now examine what you claim was a killing by this man

11 Sikirica. At what time of day did this take place, Witness H?

12 A. Well, it was sometime in the afternoon, sometime around 2.00 or

13 3.00.

14 Q. So in full daylight. No question of it being at night-time; is

15 that right?

16 A. That's right. If it's daylight, then why do you need lights?

17 Q. Before the inmate was shot, what was the man you've described as

18 Dusko Sikirica doing?

19 A. He was in the camp. He was standing from halls 1 and 2 facing

20 toward the reception hut that was there. He was in the compound.

21 Q. Perhaps you'd just like to have a look at some photographs in

22 Exhibit 2, please.

23 MR. GREAVES: Would you just show the witness the book of

24 photographs?

25 Q. Witness H, without saying anything, just look through that book of

Page 1841

1 photographs, would you please, and look at each photograph? And then I'm

2 going to ask you some questions about it. If you'd like to retain them,

3 please, Witness H, I'm going to ask you some questions about them. Are

4 those photographs of Keraterm?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is there a photograph in that bundle of photographs where you can

7 identify where it was that the man you've called Dusko Sikirica was

8 standing when he shot the inmate? And if so, would you be so kind as to

9 have it put on the ELMO and point it out to us? Have you seen anything on

10 there, Witness H, that you can identify for us?

11 MR. GREAVES: I think he will also need the pointer, if you could

12 please give him that.

13 Q. Can you point to where you think it happened?

14 A. [Indicates]. This is the reception hut where we came, and behind

15 is the Keraterm compound. You can see clearly here the lampposts. One of

16 them, you can see one of them. And they were positioned -- they were

17 spaced out. This one was at the beginning. Now, this has been redone.

18 It looks differently now. And there was hall 2, and next to it hall 2 --

19 hall 1, hall 2. The gentleman was in front of those entrances into halls

20 1 and 2 -- well, about ten metres away.

21 Q. And walking in which direction?

22 A. He was facing the reception office. He was walking facing the

23 reception office.

24 Q. And by "the reception office," you mean that building, rectangular

25 building, that we can see in the forefront of the photograph?

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Page 1843

1 A. No. This one, this hut here, this hut here, with two bicycles.

2 Q. So he was walking away from the big building that we can see in

3 the background towards the reception hut; is that your evidence?

4 A. Faced this reception hut here, here, right here. He was standing

5 on the pista.

6 Q. We're talking now about the inmate. Are you talking about the

7 inmate?

8 A. No. You asked me about the gentleman, where he stood, I mean

9 Mr. Sikirica. And the inmate, the inmate, hall number 1, number 2, and

10 then WC, so one can see it well here. This reception office and the lawn

11 and the grassy area, and that is where he was lying. From this lamppost

12 to the second lamppost, it is about 20, 30 metres, and that is where it

13 happened between them.

14 Q. So at the time when it happened, the inmate was walking away from

15 the man who shot him?

16 A. No, no. That inmate was ill-treated that whole day right here in

17 this spot which you can see. No, he wasn't walking.

18 Q. Well, how was he making his way from the room to the toilet, if he

19 wasn't walking?

20 A. I stated clearly that the prisoner was here on the grassy area,

21 not in the room. He wasn't going from the room. He had spent all day

22 there, and that's where he was mistreated and abused, between the toilet

23 and this area here, the grassy area.

24 Q. Please would you explain to us, then, if that is the position

25 concerning the man who was shot by the man you've claimed was Dusko

Page 1844

1 Sikirica, that you told the Office of the Prosecutor this: "He went from

2 Room number 3 towards the toilet." Please can you explain the discrepancy

3 between what you have just told us and what you told the Office of the

4 Prosecutor, Witness H?

5 A. As you see, this area here, this is a big area of earth, and this

6 man was near that room on that grassy area across from Room 3. And it was

7 obvious that if he was going to the toilet that he would pass by the

8 entrance to Room 3.

9 Q. When the man was shot, was he facing or facing away from the man

10 you've called Dusko Sikirica?

11 A. He was facing him.

12 Q. When he was shot, did he die immediately?

13 A. No. There were two or three shots. Not after the first shot, he

14 didn't even fall. After second or third, he did fall.

15 Q. If this incident took place at 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon in

16 high summer in Bosnia, why did you tell the Bosnian authorities that it

17 had taken place one night?

18 A. No, I never said that.

19 Q. Let me remind you of what you told the Bosnian authorities,

20 Witness H.

21 "I saw him with my own eyes one night and that was the night

22 before the mass killing of inmates in hall number 3. He was standing near

23 the lavatory between halls 2 and 3, leaning against a post and shooting at

24 an inmate who was going to the lavatory."

25 That's what you told the Bosnian gentleman, Mr. Ibric. Please can

Page 1845

1 you explain why you told Mr. Ibric that if it actually took place in the

2 middle of the afternoon?

3 A. I didn't say that. If I did say that to the investigative

4 magistrates, I was only referring to the fact that it had happened two or

5 three nights before the massacre, not that it happened during the night.

6 Q. Are you sure this incident happened, Witness H?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You see, I suggest to you that it's something you've simply made

9 up. Isn't it?

10 A. Sir, that is your opinion. That would mean that I'm lying.

11 Q. And you simply can't remember the detail well enough to get your

12 story straight more than once running, can you?

13 A. I remember the killing sufficiently well.

14 Q. And if it did happen, I suggest to you it certainly wasn't the man

15 you've identified in court as Dusko Sikirica, was it?

16 A. I think that he was, as I asserted.

17 Q. Let's move on to another topic, Witness H. Can you help us with

18 this, the incident involving Emsud Bahonjic? First of all, can you give

19 us a date for that?

20 A. I clearly said that the man was taken out on several occasions.

21 Q. And is this right: He was beaten because he was in the TO at

22 Kozarac and was in the reserve police?

23 A. I wasn't clear on that, but when they called him out, they called

24 him "the policeman from Kozarac."

25 Q. Fikret Avdic. Can you identify a date when that incident took

Page 1846

1 place?

2 A. That may also have -- could have been in mid-July, between the

3 18th or 20th. Around that time.

4 Q. And is this right, that one of the guards, a man called Kondic,

5 wanted to take his clothes from him and that's why he was assaulted?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The man Elezovic who was assaulted, can you give us a date for

8 that incident? Would it be around the end of July, the very end of July

9 1992?

10 A. This man was also taken out on several occasions, and the murder

11 took place in July.

12 Q. You told the Office of the Prosecutor that it was the end of

13 July. Does that refresh your memory as to the date, Witness H?

14 A. Yes. After all this time and all of this, I cannot give the exact

15 date. I know the exact date of when I was beaten, when my close family

16 was killed. That I remember very well.

17 Q. And the man whose name -- first name you don't know but second

18 name, Mesic, a professor, did you put a date on that, when that incident

19 happened?

20 A. All this took place in July.

21 Q. And was the reason that he reacted too slowly to a call to go back

22 to the room that he was shot? Or assaulted, rather.

23 A. It is possible. It depended on the shift when we would go out.

24 So then they would let us out to breathe some air for a few minutes, and

25 we would run back in. It is possible, because he was a bit heavier and he

Page 1847

1 lagged behind.

2 Q. The man called Cupo Banovic, it's right, isn't it, that he tried

3 to extort money from you?

4 A. Yes. When I went to fill the water and go to the toilet.

5 Q. The two Banovic brothers were there. It's right, isn't it, that

6 that's what they specialised in, trying to extort money from prisoners?

7 Would that be correct?

8 A. Yes. There were two Banovic brothers. That was a regular thing,

9 to take money and gold and watches. Not only by the two of them.

10 Q. I want to ask you now, Witness H, about the time when the camp was

11 closed on the 5th or 6th of August, 1992. There was a group of prisoners

12 who went to Omarska on buses. Was there anything that happened physically

13 to them, apart from a beating, before they went to Omarska?

14 A. These were prisoners from these halls. Of course, these were --

15 among them there were men who were beaten. They were called out. There

16 was a list that was read out and these people came -- were coming out.

17 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, just give me a moment, please.

18 Q. Yes. But apart from people being beaten who were in this group

19 that went to Omarska at the time of the closure of the camp, was there

20 anything else physical that was done to them in any way at all before they

21 went off to Omarska?

22 A. Before that, there was a review in the camp, and it was said that

23 those who were exhausted and sick would be transferred, and personal data

24 was taken about their education and work background.

25 Q. You've told Their Honours that Sikirica and Kajin were present on

Page 1848

1 the occasion when those people left for Omarska, and you've described how

2 names were read out from a list. The very first time you've ever

3 mentioned that was this morning here in court about that, isn't it?

4 A. So far, nobody had asked me who was present, and of course, I said

5 who was.

6 Q. You didn't tell the Bosnian authorities that Sikirica and Kajin

7 were involved in that, did you?

8 A. I did not tell the Bosnian authorities about my knowledge, but I

9 did talk to the persons who came from the Tribunal, and you mentioned

10 their names. I don't recall them any more. And had I given any statement

11 to the Bosnian authorities, it -- it is possible that I did not know that

12 some of them may have been a member of the Bosnian authorities, but if --

13 I did not give any statement to the Bosnian authorities.

14 Q. So are you saying that you gave the information about Sikirica and

15 Kajin to those people whose names we talked about, in 1995? Is that when

16 you say that you mentioned it?

17 A. No, that's not what I said. You asked me clearly whether I had --

18 I had stated this morning that these persons were present, and it is true,

19 they were present. And whether I had told this to those people or not,

20 this -- these -- these men were present, Mr. Dosen and Mr. Sikirica, while

21 the list was being read out.

22 Q. Did Mr. Mundis, who has been talking to you, I think, recently,

23 did he ask you who was present when the buses went off to Omarska?

24 A. Yes, it is possible that he asked me who was present.

25 Q. Did you tell him?

Page 1849

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Page 1850

1 A. As I stated, I said, as I told you this morning, that Mr. Sikirica

2 and Mr. Kajin were both present, and whether I had said it to the person

3 who was questioning me, that I cannot say. They were there.

4 Q. You're quite sure you haven't been talking to other witnesses

5 about what's been going on in this Tribunal concerning this case, Witness

6 H?

7 A. No.

8 Q. The reason that it's not mentioned in either your statement to the

9 Bosnian authorities or to the Office of the Prosecutor, I suggest, is

10 because you didn't witness such a thing, Witness H, did you?

11 A. Sir, I have clear proof that I was in Keraterm and Trnopolje camps

12 from the ICRC, from Geneva.

13 Q. Witness H, I hadn't suggested that you weren't. Why are you so

14 anxious to suggest to us that you can prove it?

15 A. Because you, sir, are saying that I did not see this.

16 Q. Just finally, Witness H, the two places where you were detained,

17 Keraterm and Trnopolje, they had a substantial number of people detained

18 there, did they not?

19 A. Yes. There were a lot of people there.

20 Q. How many were detained, according to you, in Keraterm at any one

21 time?

22 A. I think that - this was when we were leaving Keraterm to go to

23 Trnopolje - at that time, there were between 1.000 and 1200 people, and

24 because people were killed, I think that at some point there must have

25 been 1500 or 1600 people. And in Trnopolje camp, there were a lot more

Page 1851

1 people.

2 Q. Several thousand?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And throughout the time when you were detained in those two

5 places, the people -- you yourself and those other people were entirely in

6 the power of the Serb authorities, weren't you?

7 A. Yes, of course. Around these camps, the checkpoints were set up,

8 manned by Serb soldiers.

9 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that at both the two camps, Keraterm and

10 Trnopolje, there was nothing to prevent the Serb authorities from killing

11 all of you at any time? Do you accept that?

12 A. Yes. I'm not competent to say something like this, but given the

13 number of killings, that means that people could do whatever they wanted

14 to do.

15 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honour would just give me a moment, please?

16 Your Honour, save to ask that his statement to the Bosnian authorities and

17 to the OTP should be exhibited, I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. They will be exhibited.

19 Mr. Petrovic, I neglected to mention that today we will stop at

20 4.00 p.m. as the Chamber is involved in another matter.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

23 Q. Witness H, I would like to first clarify a point which you were

24 trying to clear up with Mr. Greaves. Mr. Greaves had asked you whether

25 you had given a statement to the Bosnian authorities. You told him that

Page 1852

1 you had not. Two minutes later, he again asked you whether you had given

2 a statement to the Bosnian authorities, and you said that you did. Which

3 of these is true?

4 A. I did not say yes. I said that if somebody was present or was

5 there who -- of the Bosnian authorities, who was with the investigators of

6 the Tribunal, that is possible, but not that I gave it directly to the

7 Bosnian authorities.

8 Q. How many people were present when you gave the statement to the

9 investigators of the ICTY?

10 A. There was the investigator, there was an interpreter, and I think

11 another interpreter.

12 Q. And then they compiled the statement in front of you and then you

13 signed that statement?

14 A. Of course. When I gave a statement to the authorities from the

15 Tribunal, I did sign it, but not the one to the Bosnian authorities.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Can we have the counsel --

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. The microphone was

18 not on.

19 Q. Let me ask you the question again. When you gave the statement to

20 the Tribunal investigators, you signed it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On that occasion, you only signed that statement? That is the

23 only existing statement?

24 A. Of course.

25 Q. In other words, you only signed one statement?

Page 1853

1 A. Yes, and I stated it clearly, if those were the people --

2 Q. Let's take it very easy. You signed one statement?

3 A. Yes, to the gentleman from the Tribunal.

4 Q. Did you read that statement before signing it?

5 A. When I gave the statement, yes.

6 Q. Was this statement in the Bosnian language?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can I please ask the usher's

9 assistance to show the witness a document.

10 Q. Will you please review this document. And you'll see the

11 statement, and if I can just ask you to look down and see what is also

12 stated at the bottom?

13 A. Yes. I did.

14 Q. Will you please read it out loud.

15 A. Do you want me --

16 Q. Excuse me, do not read anything right now. Is that your name,

17 your personal data?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Will you now please look at the bottom left corner.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that your signature?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Will you please turn to the second page. At the bottom right

24 corner, do you also see your signature?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1854

1 Q. Will you please check the remainder of the pages. Do you see your

2 signature on them?

3 A. But this was -- this is nothing to do with the war crimes and this

4 was not to the Bosnian --

5 Q. Will you please just return the statement.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: There was overlapping. Please observe the pause

7 between question and answer.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, my apologies, Your Honour. I

9 would like the usher to please return the document.

10 Q. So we have determined that each of these pages bears your

11 signature.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. On the last page that you signed, it states:

14 "The citizen has read the statement and has no objection to it

15 whatsoever. He's prepared to give this entire testimony in a court of law

16 or before some international organisation and to make a new statement in

17 the event that he remembers any additional details."

18 A. That statement was given when I first arrived in Travnik when I

19 was expelled and when they were taking down my personal data and when they

20 asked me what I had gone through, and I did not give any statement

21 regarding the Tribunal and things like that, but those people were not

22 from the state security or something that you have been suggesting.

23 Q. What did these people ask you?

24 A. About my life story, where I was in camps, what happened there.

25 Q. And what did the people from the Tribunal ask you, something

Page 1855

1 else?

2 A. Well, it is true that they asked me these things, but they asked

3 me whether I would testify about what had happened.

4 Q. Why did you this morning tell us twice that you had not given any

5 statement to the Bosnian authorities?

6 A. I don't know how many times I need to repeat it. When I was

7 questioned and when the gentleman from The Hague Tribunal came, it is

8 possible that there were some members of the local authorities there and

9 that they made that statement.

10 Q. So when did you sign this?

11 A. To be honest, I certainly claim that I had not given a statement

12 to the Bosnian authorities.

13 Q. But we determined that this was your signature.

14 A. That was my first and last name.

15 Q. Were you signing blank pieces of paper?

16 A. No. Let me say, frankly, this is my first and last name, and I

17 did not say that I had signed it.

18 Q. So you're saying that this is not your signature.

19 A. I'm just saying this, that I did not give a statement.

20 Q. Let's not belabour this point. Is this your signature or not?

21 A. The name, yes.

22 Q. My question is: Is that your signature? Is that how you sign

23 your name?

24 A. No. I use both the Latin and Cyrillic script to sign.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber has not had the benefit of seeing

Page 1856

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Page 1857

1 this.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, I know. I'm

3 aware of that. But I should like to ask the witness to sign his name on a

4 sheet of paper and then we will want to tender it into evidence.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Will the usher please give this

7 sheet of paper to the witness?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Vucicevic.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, yes.

10 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, I have a version of the statement

11 that Mr. Petrovic is talking in English. You said you don't have one. If

12 you'd like to take a look.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That would be helpful, yes.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Will you please sign it several times, three or four times, so

16 that we can really establish how it is that you sign your name. Will you

17 please put two or three of your signatures there.

18 May I now see it? May I see this document, please?

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to

20 tender this into evidence as a Defence Exhibit, but before that, could the

21 usher please show it to you and my learned friends in the Prosecution, if

22 you want to see it now.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We still haven't seen the statement with the

24 witness' signature.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a moment. Yes.

Page 1858

1 We have a copy of the statement in Bosnian.

2 Please give this to the Trial Chamber.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the Prosecution has available clean

5 copies of all of the statements in English and in B/C/S if those would be

6 helpful for the Chamber rather than copies that may have markings on them

7 from counsel. I'm not sure if we have enough clean copies for everyone,

8 but we certainly seem to have enough clean copies for the Bench.

9 Obviously these statements have not yet been translated into

10 French. We can certainly endeavour to do that. The case manager informed

11 me that there are approximately 22 pages in total of these statements and

12 that that would require approximately three to four days for the

13 Translation Unit to translate them into French, but I can certainly make

14 copies into English and the B/C/S versions available right now if that

15 would be helpful.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes. And in principle, counsel should have

17 ready and at hand available copies for the Bench if this is not to be a

18 private exercise between counsel and the witness. We have to assess the

19 evidence, and if you want us to look at the handwriting, then we have to

20 see the two documents.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please receive my

22 apologies. I fully accept the criticism, but we did not know that the

23 witness would deny that he had signed this statement.

24 Now, will the Prosecutor now give you a copy in B/C/S which you

25 can have or do you want this copy that I have? Which one of the two would

Page 1859

1 you prefer, Your Honour?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: In order to expedite the procedure, you will be

3 tendering those, I take it, as exhibits?

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: They can be tendered and they can be passed up to

6 us later, and you can proceed.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not think I will

8 be able to conclude my cross-examination by the end of our today's session

9 so that I will prepare everything that you have just instructed me to

10 prepare by tomorrow morning.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness H, do you know somebody called Dusan Stamenic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where did this man live?

16 A. In Trnopolje.

17 Q. Do you know anything about him?

18 A. He was in the same village that I lived in during my detention in

19 the camp.

20 Q. Just a moment. Just a moment, because the Chamber is conferring.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I proceed?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You mentioned that mister -- that during the war, Mr. Stamenic,

25 and there I interrupted you. Could you please tell us what you wanted to

Page 1860

1 say?

2 A. But can you repeat that question?

3 Q. I asked you if you knew him. You said you did. What else do you

4 know about him?

5 A. Well, he wore -- yes, police, village police. He wore a uniform.

6 Q. Would you relate some incidents to him? Do you remember anything?

7 A. Well, yes. He and many other men came there, especially when

8 those bodies were buried. They were my neighbours.

9 Q. So you remember him from that occasion when the bodies were

10 buried. Do you remember him by something else?

11 A. Well, from the camps, because he came to the camps.

12 Q. Did he ever slap anybody in the camp?

13 A. Yes. There were such instances too.

14 Q. Did he do anything else?

15 A. Yes. A man was shot near his home, too. I don't know how. But

16 there was a man who was killed next to -- by his house.

17 Q. Who killed that man?

18 A. Well, it happened next to his house.

19 Q. So you don't know who killed that man? All you know is that it

20 happened next to his house?

21 A. I know that that same man came for me to bury those bodies.

22 Q. Yes. I got that. What I'm asking is about that murder that you

23 are mentioning which happened near his house. All you know is that it

24 happened near his house; didn't it?

25 A. Well, I was not an eye witness, I cannot say.

Page 1861

1 Q. Then why did you, in your statement, say that on the 20th of

2 August, 1992, Dusan Stamenic fired a rifle and killed an unknown Bosniak?

3 A. No, those are two different men, sir. Dusan Stamenic.

4 Q. And who?

5 A. And as you said, his son.

6 Q. I think my question was clear, and I was asking you about Dusan

7 Stamenic. I never asked you about his son and whether if anything his son

8 did?

9 A. The murder happened near the house of Dusan and Drasko Stamenic,

10 near the railway tracks, and near Bektasevic whom the gentleman forced to

11 bury him buried him. Stamanics forced him to bury him.

12 Q. Why did you say in a statement that "Dusan Stamenic killed a

13 Bosniak whom I did not know"?

14 A. If it says that he killed, he came and forced the man, but I never

15 said that I saw him kill that man.

16 Q. That man was buried, you said, by Bektasevic?

17 A. Meaz.

18 Q. Why, then, did you say in that statement that you, your nephew,

19 Samir Hodzic and Bektasevic buried this man?

20 A. Yes, because this self same Bektasevic buried that man because he

21 was buried very shallowly. We once went into that meadow and dogs or

22 something had already started, you know -- they had dug him out, and it

23 reeked of -- there were those odours. And Mr. Stamenic was present there

24 on that occasion, and he forced us to bury him.

25 Q. I suppose the second time you buried him in the cemetery which was

Page 1862

1 near your house?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Where did you bury him?

4 A. That man is buried next to the fish pond, not far from Dusan and

5 Drasko Stamenic's house, about 300 or 400 metres away.

6 Q. Witness H, could you please slow down? Because it is my

7 impression that the interpreters can get every second or third word

8 because you are just too fast. Will you please try to slow down because

9 the interpreters have to keep up with you and we need to make their work

10 easier.

11 So if I understand you well, you buried that man for the second

12 time?

13 A. Twice.

14 Q. Both times you buried him?

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 Q. I apologise. Let me rephrase this. Did you see that body? Did

20 you really see that body?

21 A. His legs could be seen and he had some shoes on and had some

22 working clothes, and it -- the stench was horrible. Nobody would really

23 be happy to see such a person.

24 Q. Could you identify that working clothes that you said he had on?

25 A. Oh, well, overalls.

Page 1863

1 Q. Then why did you in your statement of the 3rd of November, 1994,

2 did you say that the man had blue jeans, ordinary shoes, a sort of white

3 coffee jacket and a blue shirt?

4 A. As I have just said, it was a kind of a coverall. Perhaps it was

5 jeans. And I said that there was a very unpleasant odour.

6 Q. And that jacket and shirt, do they really look like overalls or

7 like working clothes? Is that how you see it?

8 A. Yes, because I said then, as I'm telling you, that he had a kind

9 of workman's shoes, perhaps these overalls, perhaps it could have been

10 jeans, because as we know, there are overalls and overalls, they come in

11 all colours.

12 Q. Would you wear a jacket with such overalls?

13 A. Well, I don't know how you put these two together. I just said

14 that these overalls could be just the same colour as the jacket or the

15 shirt, a two-piece.

16 Q. And what colour were those overalls?

17 A. As I have already said, the lower part was blue. The body had

18 already been buried and it stank and the dogs had already --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mundis?

20 MR. MUNDIS: Objection on relevance grounds, Your Honour.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise but this

22 question goes to the credibility of the witness and I hope you will allow

23 me to continue. I will try to be as brief and concise but you see how the

24 witness answers. I mean, the witness is answering questions that were not

25 asked.

Page 1864

1 JUDGE MAY: [Inaudible]

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Credibility of the witness, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just deal with it very quickly, Mr. Petrovic.

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Do you know of a man called had Himzo Hrnic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us what happened to that man?

9 A. That man died. He was starved to death or died as a result of

10 beating in the camp. I buried him in that cemetery next to my house.

11 Q. If one is to judge by the statement that you gave to the

12 investigators in January, 1995, on the 10th of June, 1992, you and some

13 others buried Himzo Hrnic in those four plastic bags; is that correct?

14 A. No, it is not. What I stated is that in the cemetery next to my

15 house, of those four men who were brought in plastic bags, I buried both

16 Himzo Hrnic and Safet Kararic and Muranovic and I can't remember his first

17 name. One of those men.

18 Q. So it was on the 10th of June, 1992?

19 A. No. On the 10th of June, I buried four men who were brought from

20 the Trnopolje camp. And those other men, I went to bury after I returned

21 from the camp at Trnopolje, from Keraterm to Trnopolje.

22 Q. When did this man come?

23 A. Simply at the same time when I did, when the Keraterm was

24 disbanded, and he died in -- at the Trnopolje in the camp.

25 Q. Tell me, do you know somebody called Ermin Hodzic?

Page 1865

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what happened to him?

3 A. He was killed.

4 Q. Did Ermin -- was Ermin Hodzic killed on the day when Zoran

5 Karlica's Intervention Platoon came on the 9th of July?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In your statement, you said that that body was buried, that that

8 man was killed, and that his body was buried 20 days later?

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 Q. Now, let me go back to this 9th of June. You say that those

14 members of the unit, which was called Zoran Karlica, had some patches.

15 What did these patches look like?

16 A. That was the first time I saw it. It was round and it said "Zoran

17 Karlica Intervention Platoon." I know what it was like but I can't

18 exactly tell you, but it has a drawing but I don't know --

19 Q. And what colour --

20 A. I don't know. It was round and I think it had white lettering

21 saying "Intervention Platoon, Zoran Karlica."

22 Q. You said that every five to ten days or so, a street in Trnopolje

23 would be evicted. Will you now try to remember the sequence, as I suppose

24 you are familiar with all the streets? Could you tell us something about

25 the sequence?

Page 1866

1 A. I can't tell you. I know that on the 9th of July, the evicted

2 were Matrici, Duracici, Muranovici, Elezi, and my street. And I cannot

3 tell you the exact dates for all the streets because my village is large.

4 It is one of the largest villages in the Prijedor municipality.

5 Q. I wasn't asking you about the date. I'm asking you about the

6 names.

7 A. Five or ten days before the 9th of July.

8 Q. Which street was evicted?

9 A. I cannot tell you exactly. Perhaps it was first Elezi, then

10 Karlici and then Sesta. I can't really tell you for sure because it was a

11 long time ago, the exact date or the sequence or the days, five or ten.

12 Q. Were there any armed men in Trnopolje?

13 A. To my knowledge, as I have already said, I do not belong to any

14 political party. It is, of course, possible that there were, and the

15 Territorial Defence, but I wasn't interested in politics.

16 Q. And where were those armed men?

17 A. I cannot say that because I wasn't in any one of those units, as I

18 have already said.

19 Q. But did you leave your house ever?

20 A. My house? Well, that street and that whole place was practically

21 a camp. Yes, I could move about, but at my own responsibility, risking to

22 be killed.

23 Q. I'm trying to get an answer from you, and that is if there were

24 any armed guards in Trnopolje and if you saw them.

25 A. Why, there was the Territorial Defence, naturally. There was

Page 1867

1 those in the Territorial Defence before the beginning of the conflict,

2 mutually. They were the -- people went on duty, and it was distributed

3 between Muslims, Croats, Ukrainians, and Serbs. But that there were some

4 formations that carried weapons, I mean Muslims, but I don't know that.

5 Q. Do you know what a Crisis Staff is?

6 A. Why, yes. Well, this thing before the war in the Territorial

7 Defence, yes, we had it in our Territorial Defence in Trnopolje. We had

8 those kind of a Crisis Staff, the TO, before the conflict.

9 Q. And what was the role of that Crisis Staff?

10 A. Well, that's the Territorial Defence, and it was supposed to

11 protect regardless of the population, Muslim, Serb, in case of a conflict,

12 but we saw what happened and how it happened.

13 Q. Were the members of the Territorial Defence armed?

14 A. Well, the Territorial Defence, they were armed before by those

15 self-same authorities, by the police and the municipality authority that

16 issued those men with weapons. And I cannot tell you about this because I

17 was not in any one of them.

18 Q. When you left your homes, how many men did you say walked down the

19 street towards Trnopolje, towards the centre?

20 A. Down that street of mine to the asphalt road which runs across the

21 field, that is Prijedor-Omarska. And my street was 800 to 1.000 metres

22 long and there were some 60 to 70 elderly male persons.

23 Q. And how many people perished?

24 A. From my street, 26 people were killed.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, if this is a convenient time, we

Page 1868

1 would take the break until tomorrow morning, because the Chamber does have

2 to prepare itself for another matter.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, we

4 shall continue tomorrow.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I ask you to have ready tomorrow morning those

6 documents that were tendered. There was some lack of clarity. The

7 documents that were tendered by Mr. Petrovic, various statements, and the

8 document with the signature of the witness for tomorrow morning.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

10 Mr. Vucicevic.

11 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, if I may address the Court on a

12 technical matter. I do not have access to the laptop as the Prosecutor

13 does and the other counsel do, and it just happened the way we took the

14 seating, according to the name that you are calling, the counsel here, and

15 I have brought this matter to the attention of the Registry when I -- when

16 we started the trial, and it's been two and a half weeks, and I really

17 don't have a computer to mark anything on the transcript and perhaps to go

18 back.

19 I know if I have -- like I will have opportunity for this witness,

20 I can, you know, down-load it and look it up, but if I had to examine this

21 witness, I wouldn't have any way to look at his testimony, what he had

22 done earlier.

23 So I contacted the technical people, and they said ask the

24 Registry or ask Trial Chamber to give me permission to have another line

25 access to the LiveNote. I'm at disadvantage and doctrine of equity of

Page 1869

1 arms, I believe, gives me a chance to be in equal position of all other

2 counsel. Can I have my own laptop too? I brought my own in. Just the

3 line.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber will investigate this matter. I

5 think you have every right to the use of the same technical equipment as

6 other counsel, and we'll discuss this with the Registrar and the other

7 appropriate authorities.

8 Witness H, we're going to adjourn now until tomorrow morning at

9 9.30. During the adjournment, you're reminded that you're not to discuss

10 your evidence with anybody, including members of the Prosecution team.

11 We are adjourned.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 5th day

14 of April, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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