Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1870

1 Thursday, 5 April 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before we commence with the witness, in the first

7 place, I'd like to apologise for the Chamber's late arrival. It was due

8 to the fact that we had to meet to consider matters in respect of which I

9 will now give a ruling.

10 The first is the Prosecution request that their investigator be

11 allowed to view the proceedings with an audiovisual aid. The general

12 principle is, of course, that a witness should not be present in court

13 prior to giving evidence, and Rule 90(D) is very practical and it provides

14 that: "A witness who had heard the testimony of another witness shall not

15 for that reason alone be disqualified from testifying."

16 The Chamber fully understands and accepts that principle.

17 The reason given by the Prosecutor for the investigator's presence

18 is, it seems, among other things, to assist the Prosecutor in the

19 preparation of his closing brief.

20 In considering this matter, the Chamber has had to take account of

21 the fact that as a matter of practice, even if it is not a matter of

22 right, the Defence is not allowed to have their investigator present in

23 court. It appears that the basis for this is financial and economic

24 consideration. To have the Prosecutor's investigator in court in a

25 situation in which Defence would not be able, for whatever reason, to have

Page 1871

1 their investigator in court, what it seems to us is a breach of the

2 principle of equality of arms.

3 In those circumstances and for those reasons, the Chamber will not

4 accede to the Prosecutor's request.

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]. Apparently, this person has written a book,

10 and he believes that he has evidence relevant to these proceedings.

11 While the Chamber does not rule out of the possibility of this

12 person being called as a witness at a later stage in the proceedings, we

13 do not consider it appropriate at this stage to consider the matter of

14 intervening him in these proceedings.

15 So the ruling on that matter is that this is something which

16 should be taken up at a later stage in the proceedings.

17 On the matter of the trial and the progress that is being made in

18 general, I think we are picking up some speed and the pace is improving,

19 but the Chamber would like to see us work towards an objective of dealing

20 with at least one witness in a day -- in a day, and I'd like all parties

21 to bear that in mind and to cooperate in that regard.

22 Yes. We'll continue with the witness.

23 Mr. Petrovic.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 WITNESS: WITNESS H [Resumed]

Page 1872

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

3 Q. Witness H, let me ask you to try to summarise what we have been

4 saying here yesterday. You said that you had given a statement to the

5 Tribunal investigators, and we determined that there was a statement with

6 your name and your signature for which you said it was not your statement;

7 is that correct?

8 A. No. I said I had given a statement to the Tribunal investigators

9 and that there was a possibility that there was somebody there of whom I

10 was not aware.

11 Q. Did you perhaps, on 8th December 1994, meet with a gentleman whose

12 name is Zijad Ibric?

13 A. There is such a possibility.

14 Q. Did you perhaps give him a written statement on this day?

15 A. As I said, there is a possibility that I had given such a

16 statement because I did not know of these persons, but I have already said

17 that when I arrived in Travnik, I gave statements to the authorities

18 there, in what camps I had been and so on.

19 Q. My understanding of what you said was that you had only given one

20 statement and that was to the Tribunal investigators, so did you give a

21 statement to the authorities in -- of Banja Luka, SJB, on 8 December,

22 1994?

23 A. I have already said that I have given a statement to people about

24 what had happened to me on the way to Travnik, but I did not know their

25 names.

Page 1873

1 Q. Were Tribunal investigators there at the time?

2 A. I really don't know.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please help me to

4 put this document to the witness, and to -- and to have the witness state

5 without reading any names whether this is indeed his statement?

6 Q. Will you please look at the signature and tell me whether this is

7 your signature?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is that the only statement you gave that day?

10 A. I really don't know. I have already clearly stated that I had

11 given statements to those authorities, where I had been, whom I had seen

12 in these camps and so on.

13 Q. Why didn't you tell us that yesterday? But we have wasted a lot

14 of time trying to determine to whom you spoke and what kind of statements

15 you have given.

16 A. I had said yesterday, as I am saying today, that I had given

17 statement to the authorities in Travnik.

18 Q. Why didn't you -- why did you say that you stated that that was

19 not your signature?

20 A. This is the statement that I have given.

21 Q. Did you on that date give another statement?

22 A. Believe me, I cannot remember.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can I please ask the usher to show

24 the witness this document so that the witness could say whether the

25 document bears his signature?

Page 1874

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please return the

3 documents which I have given to the witness?

4 Q. When did you arrive in Travnik?

5 A. I arrived in Travnik in 1994, in September.

6 Q. Do you recall having said to the Tribunal investigator who had

7 come and talked to you in January of 1995, the first thing that you said,

8 "I have given three statements about the conflict in the former

9 Yugoslavia. It was in November and December, 1994"?

10 A. Yes. There is a possibility that I said that.

11 Q. Why did you yesterday and today say different things to the Trial

12 Chamber?

13 A. [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, the Chamber would like you to move

16 on. We believe that you have explored the question of statements. We

17 think you should move on.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I

19 completely accept what you said, and I would like to distribute one copy

20 of each of the statements in Bosnian and English, and we will provide the

21 French versions as soon as possible. And Mr. Greaves has tendered three

22 out of five statements. I would like to tender the remaining two

23 statements so that we have all of them, and I'm sure that my friends of

24 the Prosecution already have copies of them.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The Registrar will give them the

Page 1875

1 appropriate numbers.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Through the kind cooperation of the

3 Prosecution, sufficient numbers of copies were made in Bosnian and English

4 languages, five copies each.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... proceedings.

6 I'll ask the Registrar to deal with the question of the numbering and the

7 distribution of the exhibits at a later stage.

8 THE REGISTRAR: I will do that, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Of course, we will need to know what the numbers

10 are so that when the next exhibit is tendered, we have the right number.

11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

12 another exhibit, the next one, which is the document bearing signature --

13 a signature of this witness. The original is already with the Registry,

14 and I have sufficient numbers of copies for everybody concerned, and I

15 would like to tender it and have them distributed.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes. You may proceed.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness H, yesterday you gave evidence about Trnopolje, where you

19 went into some detail. And let me please ask you to please wait for me to

20 finish asking you a question before you give your answer.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So yesterday you said that you were moving down your street in the

23 direction of Keraterm camp. Can you tell me precisely how many people

24 were killed on that occasion?

25 A. On that occasion, up to 30 people were killed on that day, the 9th

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Page 1877

1 of July.

2 Q. Why did you -- why did you yesterday say on two occasions, both in

3 examination-in-chief and cross-examination that it was exactly 26 persons

4 who were killed?

5 A. Yes, 26 persons from my street, which was about one kilometre

6 long.

7 Q. And what does the number of 30 refer to?

8 A. As I said, when we came down to the Omarska-Prijedor road, when we

9 arrived there, there were men from other hamlets, Elezi, Durraci, and

10 Mrakovici, and there were some people there.

11 Q. How many?

12 A. I don't know the exact number, but I know that up to 30 people

13 were killed before we arrived in the camp.

14 Q. When you were giving the statement to the investigators of this

15 Tribunal, you said on that occasion, exactly 36 people were killed.

16 A. Yes, that is possible. It was Durraci Matrici, and I know that 20

17 people from my street, as I pointed out, were killed.

18 Q. Why did you say to the Prosecutor that there were 36?

19 A. Thirty-six. As I said, it was a man from Durraci, Matrici,

20 Elezovi, and I didn't know them that well. And the exact figure of 26 I

21 knew because these were men from my street.

22 Q. You told the investigator that a group of five or six soldiers

23 killed 35 men in front of Mevludin Sejmenovic's and Redzib's house, Esad

24 Redzic's house.

25 A. Yes, that is correct, 35, and 26 were from my street.

Page 1878

1 Q. So where were these people killed exactly?

2 A. They were killed in front of Esad Redzic, the other men, and the

3 Mevludin's Sejmenovic house.

4 Q. Did you say in the statement of 3rd November to the Bosnian

5 authority that it was 32 Bosniaks who were killed?

6 A. I say even now that I cannot give you the exact number. Maybe it

7 was up to 50 men who were killed, but I know that from my street it was

8 exactly 26 who were killed. Because at that time, I could not witness

9 every murder.

10 Q. Did you make a count of those killed?

11 A. I was in a column, and from the column I could see that 26 men

12 were killed.

13 Q. Why do you then mention these other figures if you did not know

14 the men, if you don't know the exact numbers?

15 A. There was -- there was about ten bodies on one heap, in one group,

16 and I could not see exactly how many. Maybe there were even more than

17 that.

18 Q. Why don't you make it easier for all of us and say that you did

19 not know how many people were killed?

20 A. From my street, it was exactly 26 men who were killed.

21 Q. Can you please tell me where these men were buried?

22 A. They were buried in front of Mevludin Sejmenovic house and Esad

23 and Mevla Redzics' houses.

24 Q. How many men were buried in front of Mevla Redzic's house?

25 A. I think about 17 men.

Page 1879

1 Q. In your statement, you said you were forced to sing Chetnik songs

2 as you were going along that road.

3 A. Yes, we did sing Serbian songs.

4 Q. You said yesterday that you sang a Halid Muslimovic song.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What is Halid Muslimovic ethnicity?

7 A. Muslim.

8 Q. Was this song a Chetnik one?

9 A. I didn't say Chetnik song. I'm saying -- I'm repeating this

10 again.

11 Q. How many buses there were where you got on in Trnopolje?

12 A. Four or five.

13 Q. In which bus were you?

14 A. I was in the first one. When we were coming to the Keraterm camp,

15 I was on the first bus.

16 Q. Where did those buses which brought you stop at Keraterm?

17 A. They stopped outside the entrance, outside the very entrance,

18 outside the gate where the reception desk was, one after the other, in a

19 column.

20 Q. Did they stop inside the compound of Keraterm or outside?

21 A. When we were coming in -- it depends. The first bus came through

22 immediately, and the others behind him had to stop.

23 Q. So the bus went inside the compound of Keraterm?

24 A. I can't answer that precisely, but I think -- I think so.

25 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I would like to show you the

Page 1880

1 Prosecution Exhibit number 2, namely, picture number -- picture A.

2 Please look at the picture.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the usher to put the

4 photograph on the ELMO so we can see what the witness is pointing. [In

5 English] Please put it on the ELMO.

6 Q. Where were you exactly at that moment when you arrived? Please

7 show us.

8 A. This is the entrance to Keraterm from the main road,

9 Prijedor-Banja Luka, which means that if this is the gate into Keraterm,

10 the buses were coming from Banja Luka, Kozarac, and they stopped at the

11 gate. As we were coming in, the first bus had to go through the gate, and

12 up to the reception area, and the others had to stop. Here you see the

13 reception area very clearly. I was beaten up when I was getting off the

14 bus. I reached the reception desk. It could have been a distance of

15 about ten metres. So if the buses came together, the first one could have

16 been inside the compound already, the bus that I was on.

17 Q. At this gate which you see, were there any guards?

18 A. Believe me, I couldn't see that in the evening from the bus. It

19 was night-time. But at the reception hut, yes.

20 Q. Please tell me, does it mean that the bus came into this area

21 behind this mobile white gate, the rail?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where on this photograph? Perhaps we can't see it. But at the

24 time when you were brought into Keraterm, where was this pile of dirt, the

25 waste pile?

Page 1881

1 A. This is the reception hut, hall number 1 and 2. That evening I

2 couldn't have known that. All I saw was the reception hut. And later, as

3 I said, a big garbage dump was here by the reception hut.

4 Q. So from the right, at the rightmost side of the photograph?

5 A. This is the reception hut, hall number 1 and 2. This is some sort

6 of warehouse, Rooms 3 or 4, and waste containers, garbage containers.

7 That evening I couldn't have seen that.

8 Q. Why did you then say to the investigators of the OTP the

9 following: "The buses parked next to a garbage dump right inside the

10 compound"?

11 A. The buses parked near the hillock. Maybe it was mistranslated.

12 That is the area near the reception hut where I was beaten up.

13 Q. Sir, I'm showing to you -- put my questions precisely, and I would

14 like precise answers. So you told the Office of the Prosecutor that the

15 buses had parked next to the garbage dump. Why did you say that when you

16 are claiming a completely different thing today?

17 A. As for this garbage dump, it's possible that I said it. But it

18 was night-time; I couldn't see it. I just said precisely where I was

19 taken off the bus. I was beaten up. I reached the reception hut where I

20 was met by guards who took away my personal documents, some little -- the

21 little valuables that I had. They beat me up. Then they took me towards

22 the pista.

23 Q. I'm not asking you about this. I'm asking you where the buses

24 were and why you said they parked next to the garbage dump when you are

25 showing us now that it's at least 100 metres away from the place where you

Page 1882

1 were brought?

2 A. It's possible that this garbage dump was somewhere near the gate,

3 and that I saw it. I clearly showed to you where I got off the bus and

4 where I was.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, the witness has offered an

6 explanation. It's a matter now for the Chamber to assess that evidence.

7 Let's move on to another matter.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You told us yesterday that at the reception desk by this small hut

10 we see on the picture, that your documents were taken away there but you

11 were not beaten up, not by the reception hut, when you were -- when your

12 documents were taken away?

13 A. Yes. When I got off the bus, I got beaten up.

14 Q. It seems to me my questions are fairly precise. Please give me

15 precise answers.

16 A. I don't think I was beaten there.

17 Q. Why did you say to the Prosecutor then the following: "The next

18 stop was the reception desk where we had to turn over all our personal

19 belongings and where we were beaten again"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Please wait for my question to be interpreted.

22 A. Yes. I said where we had to turn over our personal belongings and

23 where we were beaten. I never said that I personally was beaten.

24 Q. You said just now that you were beaten there and when one says

25 "we," that implies you personally.

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Page 1884

1 A. I meant the majority of the people who were there. And as for me

2 personally, I'm stating this precisely, I was not beaten.

3 Q. You were grabbed by four soldiers after that.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the usher.

5 We won't need this photograph any longer. We can continue without it.

6 Q. You said you were grabbed by four soldiers. Where on your body

7 did they -- where did they beat you?

8 A. Four soldiers were standing behind that reception desk, perhaps

9 five or ten metres away, and they told me to stop.

10 Q. To make this short, where did they beat you?

11 A. They hit me in my chest, where I had haematoma, with their rifle

12 butts.

13 Q. How many people were there in the room where you were taken?

14 A. That evening, I didn't -- I couldn't have had a complete picture,

15 but it may have been up to 600 people.

16 Q. Did you ever know the exact number of people who were there?

17 A. Yes. Once, from that monitor of the room, Fehim Grubic -- Krupic,

18 sorry -- I heard that there were 62 men.

19 Q. Tell me, do you distinguish between military and police uniforms?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How does each of them look?

22 A. At that time of the conflict, there were camouflage and police

23 uniforms around during my stay in the camp.

24 Q. What is the difference?

25 A. Well, the colours are blue and green.

Page 1885

1 Q. Why, then, did you tell us yesterday that one out of the men who

2 interrogated you wore civilian clothes, while two wore military camouflage

3 uniforms?

4 A. Yes. One wore civilian clothes, one a military uniform, and

5 Mr. Drljaca wore this camouflage blue uniform.

6 Q. Do you see there is a discrepancy between those two statements?

7 You are now speaking about three different uniforms, and yesterday, at

8 11.41 you said one wore civilian clothes and two wore military camouflage

9 uniforms.

10 A. To me, those were military uniforms.

11 Q. Tell me briefly how were you beaten during interrogation?

12 A. As I said, I was climbing upstairs.

13 JUDGE MAY: He described this in detail in his evidence in chief.

14 We don't need to go over it all again, Mr. Petrovic.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. During your interrogation, did you notice any motions, movements,

17 made by those people who were interrogating you, Simo Drljaca and others?

18 A. I said clearly, when I got in, I sat on that chair that was there.

19 Q. I'm putting to you a precise question. Did you notice anything

20 unusual, any movements with their hands?

21 A. It's possible that he was walking to and fro, that he was making

22 signs.

23 Q. What kind of signs?

24 A. I can't possibly know that. Maybe he was walking about, waving

25 his hands. Maybe that's the kind of things he does. Maybe he was signing

Page 1886

1 with his eyes.

2 Q. Why did you tell to the investigators of the Bosnian authorities

3 that the people who were interrogating you had some signals and motions

4 which served for them to sign when you were -- they were supposed to beat

5 you?

6 A. I said already I was not beaten up like the others were, other

7 people who came broken after beatings. I said clearly about myself that I

8 was hit, punched off a chair, I was asked about my father, and --

9 Q. Please, are you telling us here what happened to you?

10 A. Yes, what happened to me.

11 Q. Or you are telling us about things that you heard, overheard, or

12 what seems to you had happened?

13 A. About what happened to me.

14 Q. Are you indicating clearly when you are speaking about things that

15 you know personally as opposed to things that you heard about?

16 A. Yes. I emphasise what I know personally.

17 Q. I asked you about signals and motions which you noticed, judging

18 by your statement in paragraph number 2, page 5, to the Bosnian

19 government, to the effect that they had some signals and motions to agree

20 on when they were supposed to beat you.

21 A. Yes. When I got into that room, they fixed me with their eyes.

22 Nobody asked anything. Then one of them got up, walked about, and made a

23 sign with his hands or with his eyes.

24 Q. What did it mean?

25 A. Probably that somebody should beat me up or maybe that the

Page 1887

1 interrogation was over, that I should get out of the room, that the escort

2 who brought me should take me out.

3 Q. You noticed that sign. What was it?

4 A. A normal sign. When the interrogation was over, he motioned with

5 his eyes, "Take him out," and the other one took me out without saying a

6 word.

7 Q. You said they had signals and motions to agree when the beating

8 was supposed to start, not when you were supposed to be taken out. What

9 was the sign for "start beating"?

10 A. I said clearly how I was beaten. I said a man punched me off a

11 chair and kicked me because my father worked in the cultural society of

12 Trnopolje, and he said this brotherhood no longer exists, and I got beaten

13 up.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe my

15 questions to this witness are precise. I would like you perhaps to

16 exercise your authority to help me get him to answer my questions

17 precisely. So my question was, what was the signal for "start beating,"

18 which he referred to in his statement to the Bosnian authorities.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, are you able to answer that question?

20 What was the signal that was given for the beating to start?

21 A. I have stated this clearly. It was a sign made with the eyes or

22 with a hand.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: There you have your answer. Let's move on.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You said that Kajin was commander of the camp for a short while

Page 1888

1 and that the reason for his replacement was that he had taken away some

2 prisoners to the hospital.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you there when Kajin took those people away to the hospital?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When did that happen?

7 A. As I stated before, he took away Saban Elezovic, among others. I

8 can't give you exact dates.

9 Q. How many days after your arrival was that?

10 A. Perhaps five or ten days, three. I don't know exactly. All I

11 know is Mr. Kajin took people away and brought them back. In fact, these

12 people did come back.

13 Q. Was it what you said yesterday, "Sometime -- during sometime,

14 briefly while Kajin was commander?"

15 A. Yes. It could have been two or three days.

16 Q. In your statement, you said that Kajin was soft to the detainees.

17 What does that mean?

18 A. Yes. I said that. Maybe that's what I referred to, precisely the

19 fact that those people went to the hospital and came back.

20 Q. How many times did Kajin take people to the hospital?

21 A. I can't say that precisely.

22 Q. Approximately?

23 A. Several times. I can't know the exact number of times.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Very briefly, I will deal with one

25 subject, Your Honour. I know it has been dealt with before, but this is

Page 1889

1 very important for my case.

2 Q. You said to the Office of the Prosecutor that Kajin replaced

3 Sikirica seven or ten days after your arrival.

4 A. It's possible that I said that, but I think he was commander three

5 or four days after my arrival.

6 Q. You said just a minute ago two to three, now you said three or

7 four. Do you know at all how long?

8 A. I know, but while I was at the camp, I didn't know even where I

9 was, I was so badly beaten up. I can't give you any dates precisely or

10 measure time, especially not to a day.

11 Q. Yesterday at a quarter to 3.00, you said, "On the 9th of July, I

12 arrived and Sikirica was already there." You repeated the same thing at

13 2.47.

14 A. Yes. He was already there, but I didn't say whether he was

15 commander of the camp or not. I stated clearly that after my arrival,

16 Mr. Kajin -- it's possible that I said ten days, but it was three or four

17 days before he was replaced, as far as I know.

18 Q. Could it be possible that Kajin was commander for two days?

19 A. I cannot answer that precisely.

20 Q. But is it possible? Do you allow for that possibility, that he

21 was commander for two days?

22 A. I'm telling you again, I can't tell you exactly to a day.

23 Q. You said that Kajin had a girlfriend in Trnopolje. What was her

24 name?

25 A. Yes. That was in his youth. Her name was Josipa Pavlovic,

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1 nicknamed Lula.

2 Q. What was her ethnicity?

3 A. I don't know exactly.

4 Q. You said yesterday -- you mentioned yesterday a beating of a

5 person named Turkanovic. How many times was this man hit?

6 A. I cannot know that - he was hit on the head - because he had very

7 bright red hair.

8 Q. Why did you tell the Prosecutor precisely that he was hit three

9 times?

10 A. It's possible that he was hit more times. I didn't count the

11 blows.

12 Q. In 1995, you knew that it was precisely three times.

13 A. I'm not sure about this.

14 Q. Why are you saying things you're not sure of?

15 A. I know the man was killed, and I know that his head was split, and

16 I don't know exactly how many blows there were.

17 Q. Did you hear about this from someone or did you see it

18 personally? Where did this happen?

19 A. As I stated before, it happened between halls 2 and 3, where bread

20 was cut, towards the toilet in the corner.

21 Q. What kind of injuries did this man have?

22 A. Head injuries.

23 Q. Precisely what kind of injuries? Can you tell us?

24 A. His head was fractured. His skull had cracked.

25 Q. Any other injuries?

Page 1892

1 A. Maybe some on his body. I told you about what I knew. Maybe his

2 arms were broken as well.

3 Q. You told the Prosecutor that he had injuries on his neck.

4 A. Yes. When I say "head," I think it implies the neck too. It's

5 the upper part of the body.

6 Q. In those terrible matters we are discussing, it seems that those

7 details are completely indifferent to you. You are saying roughly what

8 occurs to you at the moment.

9 A. It's not indifferent to me.

10 Q. I believe you.

11 A. Because I was beaten up. I know how it felt. But I don't know

12 about exact dates, when it happened.

13 Q. Regarding Fikret Avdic, where was this man beaten up exactly?

14 A. I know he was called out, taken out of the hall. It was night. I

15 think he was taken away to that room which was by Rooms number 3 or 4 or

16 somewhere outside. We could hear screaming and crying. He was taken back

17 outside the entrance to the hall. He was thrown on the ground there and

18 the guards pulled him inside.

19 Q. When did this happen?

20 A. I cannot tell you exactly, but I think it was on the 17th of

21 August, maybe July, mid of that month.

22 Q. You told the Prosecutor it was between the 22nd and the 25th of

23 July.

24 A. Yes. I cannot say that exactly.

25 Q. How do you know then it was on the 17th if you don't know any

Page 1893

1 dates?

2 A. As I just said, it's possible that it happened on the 17th and

3 18th, because people were taken away all the time and beaten up. I cannot

4 know the dates.

5 Q. Which shift was it?

6 A. I believe it was Mr. Kajin's shift while Banovic was still there.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters request would the counsel and the

8 witness please stop overlapping.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, I don't know whether you heard.

10 The interpreters are asking you to observe the pause between question and

11 answer, and the same applies to the witness. You must wait until the

12 question has been translated.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when we had a problem

14 -- I think that the witness just said that this was not during Kajin's

15 shift, if I understood him correctly. This is just when we were having a

16 problem with the interpretation.

17 Q. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, but Banovic was there.

19 Q. Do you conclude that this was Kajin's shift because Banovic was

20 there or because Kajin was there?

21 A. I did not say that Kajin was there.

22 Q. Why did you say yesterday that this was during Kajin's shift, and

23 today, you're saying that you're not sure of that at all? Do you know

24 what the consequences are of what you're telling us here?

25 A. Yes, I stated clearly now that Banovic was there. And you asked

Page 1894

1 me whether this was Kajin's shift and I said yes, but I am not sure.

2 Q. In other words, you did not see Kajin on that occasion?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Yesterday when we talked about the victim called Saban Elezovic,

5 when referring to that man, you said as follows, "I don't know exactly

6 when he was killed, whether it was in Kole's, Kajin's, or Fustar's shift.

7 I know it was the Banovics." Does that mean that the Banovics could come

8 at any time to beat, mistreat, abuse, regardless of whose shift it was?

9 A. Yes, they could come into camp when they wanted.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] One moment, Your Honours.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Petrovic, I can't help but notice this: That the

13 witness was an hour and a quarter in chief; Mr. Greaves cross-examined for

14 a little over an hour; and you have been cross-examining now for a little

15 over an hour too, an hour and ten minutes. There comes a time when too

16 much time is taken up and can be wasted in cross-examination. We do have

17 to get on with this case. So can you bring your cross-examination as

18 speedily as possible to a close?

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will do my best to

20 speed it up. What I'm trying to do is also secure the cooperation of the

21 witness, who I believe is answering things in a way that is too lengthy,

22 and I will try to -- what I will try to do is to reduce most of the

23 questions that I had prepared, following your instruction.

24 May I proceed, Your Honour?

25 Q. So as you said, Banovics would come whenever they wanted?

Page 1895

1 A. They could enter the camp.

2 Q. What were Fikret's injuries?

3 A. From what I remember, he had a small injury on his head but he had

4 internal injuries. He was like broken up. If he drank water, he would

5 throw it up and then something yellow came out. And the next morning, he

6 died in hall number 2.

7 Q. Yesterday you said that you placed him on a blanket and carried

8 him out of Room 2?

9 A. Yes, in front of the entrance of Room 2.

10 Q. You said that he died in front of the room; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Why did you not tell us yesterday that he died in your arms?

13 A. He did not die in my arms.

14 Q. Why did you in your statement to the Bosnian authority on page 3

15 say, "He was all broken up and died in my arms"?

16 A. Yes. Well, that was in reference to the blanket in which we

17 carried him out. That is practically in my arms.

18 Q. You mentioned a person named Saban Elezovic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was this person killed?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When did you learn that he was killed?

23 A. That man was my neighbour.

24 Q. Is it possible that it was yesterday that you said that this man

25 was killed for the first time, when you -- and when you gave four

Page 1896

1 statements to the Prosecution, including a statement on the 13th of March,

2 when you talked to them?

3 A. That man was killed.

4 Q. Didn't you consider it important that in the statement that you

5 gave in 1995, in conversation -- and in -- to mention that in your

6 conversation with Mr. Mundis several days ago, that this man was killed?

7 A. As here, I was answering questions.

8 Q. Are you trying to tell us all here that it is possible that a

9 professional person who was questioning you did not ask you whether this

10 man was killed?

11 A. No, that man was killed.

12 Q. In your statement, you say that he had injuries on his arm, that

13 the arm was in a cast, and that Cupo had hit him on -- kept hitting him on

14 the right shoulder until it broke?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did he succumb to those injuries?

17 A. No. As I said, Mr. Kajin took him to the hospital. I don't know

18 when he came back. Later on, he was taken out and killed.

19 Q. Why did you not say so?

20 A. I did say how this man was killed, and that he was killed.

21 Q. Does that mean that no one of the persons who interviewed you did

22 not hear what you -- when you said that?

23 A. I do know that I did mention that this man Elezovic was killed.

24 Q. A person named Mesic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1897

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Page 1898

1 Q. Who beat him?

2 A. I stated clearly, this was Cupo, that this man was lagging behind

3 us.

4 Q. Please, don't go so wide. Just who beat him?

5 A. Cupo.

6 Q. Why in your statement to the Prosecution in 1995 you said that it

7 was Faca who beat him and you never mentioned Cupo?

8 A. Yes, Faca was also a steady visitor.

9 Q. Do you know that Faca hit him or do you just know that Faca was a

10 steady visitor so, for anything that happened, perhaps it was Faca, it was

11 Banovic or it was Kondic, or do you actually know precisely who hit whom

12 when?

13 A. Yes, Faca was there and Banovic was there.

14 Q. Yesterday, you also mentioned Zigic?

15 A. Yes, he too was coming.

16 Q. Was Duca at that time?

17 A. I don't know all that.

18 Q. What types of injuries did Mesic have?

19 A. Head injuries.

20 Q. When Zigic shot the roof of the hall, whom did he hit?

21 A. He hit a man, I think that his last name was Jakupovic, I'm not

22 sure. This bullet hit him.

23 Q. Why did you say to the AID - to the Bosnian authorities, that is;

24 let me correct myself here - that this man Hodzic was from Kevljani?

25 A. I don't recall having said that, because among all those men, I

Page 1899

1 could not know all of them.

2 Q. The day after the Room 3 massacre, you said that that morning you

3 were let outside to go to the toilet; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did you see when you came out of the room?

6 A. If that night -- let me ask, are you referring to the day after

7 the massacre?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. I saw dead men in front of the room, because I had to run to the

10 toilet and come back quickly.

11 Q. You could not count them?

12 A. There may have been five or six bodies.

13 Q. You said that you saw Kajin that morning. The question is

14 simple: Did you see him?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You told the Prosecutor that he had come and said that there had

17 been a massacre and that he had asked whether there was someone who would

18 volunteer with -- to help, and that he did not force anyone to do

19 anything.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How many people were killed exactly on that day -- that night?

22 A. As I said, two men came out of my hall who loaded up these bodies,

23 and they said that perhaps there were up -- up to 200 casualties, 160 to

24 200, with the wounded.

25 Q. And why did you say to the Prosecutor that there were exactly

Page 1900

1 186?

2 A. Yes, I said that, but I stated clearly that I had heard from the

3 men who had loaded them and that that number does not mean that it is an

4 accurate number, because I did not load these bodies.

5 Q. Did you count those people who were killed?

6 A. No, but the people who went to load them up did count them.

7 Q. Then why are you telling us -- whenever we ask you, you give us

8 different numbers.

9 A. I stated clearly that in front of Room 3, I saw five or six bodies

10 when I was running to the toilet. I did not load up the bodies, and in my

11 statement, I had heard from -- I said that I had -- from these men who

12 were loading, Hazim Sivac, Hadjo Sivac that whether this number is correct

13 or not, that I am in no position to know.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, it's clear that his testimony in

15 this matter is based on what was told to him and it's an estimate. So I

16 wouldn't pursue that.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'm moving on, Your Honour. I

18 agree with you. Thank you.

19 Q. The men killed by Faca, can you tell me how that happened?

20 A. At the very entrance to hall 2, to the left of the door there was

21 a barrel where we relieved ourselves. That night, this man was on the

22 barrel, and Faca came and from a distance, one, two, or three metres, said

23 something like, "Hey policeman from Kozarac," or, "You from Brdo," and

24 then he shot him.

25 Q. How many times did he fire?

Page 1901

1 A. I think he fired once, one time.

2 Q. Where did he hit him?

3 A. It was night-time, but he hit him in the chest.

4 Q. You said it was night-time. Does that mean that you didn't see?

5 A. I did see it because it was three to four metres away from me.

6 Q. Why did you point out that it was night-time?

7 A. I just said that it was night-time, but the distance was two or

8 three metres from me.

9 Q. Do you know a person named Sakib Sivac?

10 A. Yes, by sight. It's possible.

11 Q. Was he in the room where you were staying?

12 A. Yes. The men from Sivci and Trnopolje were in that room, so he

13 could have been there.

14 Q. Do you conclude on the basis of the fact that people from the

15 village of Sivci were there that the person with the name Sivac was also

16 there?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Yesterday you said, "I think it was Kajin's shift." Does that

19 again mean that you're not sure that it was Kajin's shift?

20 A. You mean when people were taken away?

21 Q. No. I'm meaning -- I mean the killing of the man on the barrel?

22 A. Yes. I think he was killed by Faca.

23 Q. But you're not sure that it was in Kajin's shift?

24 A. Yes. I said that I wasn't sure, but I know that Faca killed him.

25 Q. But you're sure that it was not -- you're not sure that it was in

Page 1902

1 Kajin's shift?

2 A. It may have been.

3 Q. So is it perhaps yes or perhaps no?

4 A. You clearly asked me whether Faca killed that man. I said yes.

5 And I cannot know whether this was Kajin's shift or not, not now.

6 Q. You said that this happened after the massacre. To the

7 Prosecutor, you said that it happened one night after the massacre in

8 Room 3.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Why in the statement to the Bosnian authorities you said that this

11 was the same night when Sikirica killed a man and that that was one night

12 before the massacre in Room 3?

13 A. I said clearly that I am -- I cannot know when I was beaten up,

14 but I know that this man was killed one night before or after. I don't

15 know if that means something.

16 Q. I agree with you that it is meaningless in light of the fact that

17 this was a tragic occurrence, but it is important for this Trial Chamber

18 to determine as accurately as possible when some of these happened, and

19 this is why I'm asking you these questions.

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, you will be finishing before the

22 break?

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will do my best to

24 do that. I only have three or four questions, and I beg for your

25 indulgence and patience.

Page 1903

1 Q. Let me ask you about the situation when you were mistreated.

2 Yesterday, you said that when Banovic beat you that he broke your nose.

3 A. No. That the front tooth in the upper jaw was broken and that I

4 still have scars from it.

5 Q. In the transcript from yesterday, it says that your nose was

6 broken.

7 A. It was a front tooth. You can still see that. And there are

8 scars too.

9 Q. You told the Prosecutor that you had understood that Banovic

10 wanted to stab you in the chest and that you raised your arms to protect

11 yourself.

12 A. Yes, instinctively. My left arm against my chest.

13 Q. Why did you say to the Bosnian authorities that you instinctively

14 raised your arms to protect your head?

15 A. That is logical. Your arms are moving upwards towards your head

16 to protect yourself.

17 Q. When did Kajin arrive, before Banovic stabbed you or after?

18 A. Kajin arrived at the gate on some small motorcycle. I don't know

19 what the reason was. He had not yet entered the perimeter. I don't know

20 whether Banovic became scared or something, but when he saw Kajin

21 arriving, he tried to stab me, and he cut my arm, and he said, "Go back to

22 the hall."

23 Q. You -- in your statement to the Prosecutor, you said that Kajin

24 saved you.

25 A. Yes. I think that his arrival saved my life.

Page 1904

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Page 1905

1 Q. One last question in respect of a man called Emsud Bahonjic. Are

2 you quite sure that you personally were present at the time when this man

3 lost his life in Keraterm?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you sure that you personally saw that this man was beaten up?

6 A. Yes. He was killed.

7 Q. Do you know that there are persons -- that there is evidence that

8 this man died more than 20 days before your arrival in the camp?

9 A. No.

10 Q. How many times was he beaten; Mr. Bahonjic?

11 A. On several occasions.

12 Q. On how many exactly?

13 A. Three or four times.

14 Q. Why did you say to the Prosecutor that he was beaten five times?

15 A. Yes, it is possible. As I said before, I can say accurately when

16 I was beaten.

17 Q. You said at the time the commander of the guard was Kajin. How do

18 you know that Kajin was commander of the guard?

19 A. I said when I arrived in the camp, and I don't know how many days,

20 Mr. Kajin was commander and then he was relieved of duty. In my opinion,

21 because he was taking people to the hospital and bringing them back.

22 Q. How do you know that on one of the nights when Emsud was beaten

23 Kajin was the commander of the guard?

24 A. Because men from Kajin's shift were there.

25 Q. Which men?

Page 1906

1 A. It was the Banovics, of the ones that I know.

2 Q. A moment ago, you told us that the Banovics came all the time

3 regardless of the shifts.

4 A. Yes, they could come.

5 Q. So how do you know, then, that that night they did not come in

6 outside of their shifts?

7 A. It was their regular shift, but they could come in whenever they

8 wanted.

9 Q. But how do you know that that night, when Emsud Bahonjic was

10 beaten, it was Kajin's shift, if Banovics were able to come to any other

11 shift?

12 A. Well, it was exactly that shift.

13 Q. And what is the basis of your -- of that memory that you have?

14 A. If the two twin brothers -- the two twin brothers were on the same

15 shift, and I know that it was Kajin's shift. They could come whenever

16 they wanted. One was at the reception hut and the other one was at the

17 guard point that was to the left of the hut.

18 Q. My question to you was how do you know that that evening it was

19 Kajin's shift?

20 A. I said that Kajin's shift was on because they were at their guard

21 points. Otherwise, they would just come to the camp, and they would bring

22 people out and beat them up.

23 Q. But you said that Cupo was beating, that is one of the Banovics,

24 Duca and Zigic. All I can conclude from that was that they were not on

25 their guard duty but that they were involved in a beating.

Page 1907

1 A. But I did see them on their guard posts.

2 Q. From where did you see that they were on their guard posts?

3 A. If my room, number 2, is in front of this reception hut, and from

4 the door - and it wasn't a door, it was the bars - you could see. I could

5 see precisely.

6 Q. I'm asking you about that night.

7 A. That -- that is what I'm answering.

8 Q. Do you know a person named Adnan Bahonjic?

9 A. What is the name?

10 Q. Adnan Bahonjic. Do you know that name?

11 A. No.

12 Q. This person, in a statement that he gave to the Tribunal

13 investigators, says as follows: "On 7, 8, and 9 June, four men were

14 brought to the camp. Among them was my cousin, Emsud Bahonjic, born

15 1962. He was taken to Room number 2." Then he says -- he mentions Emsud

16 going to the hospital, and he was only looked at there and brought back.

17 "Two to four days after he was brought back from the hospital, Emsud

18 passed away." Do you have any comment to that?

19 A. I know that Emsud was in the camp while I was in the camp.

20 Q. Do you know that there is evidence that Emsud Bahonjic was taken

21 to the hospital on the 15th of June?

22 A. No, I don't.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Inaudible] ... that evidence?

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I am putting it to you, sir, that you were not at the Keraterm

Page 1908

1 camp at the time when Emsud Bahonjic was killed.

2 A. That is your opinion.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

4 questions.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. We are very near to the

6 break, so we will take the break now and Mr. Vucicevic will then

7 cross-examine.

8 Witness H, we will take a break until 11.30. During the break,

9 you are reminded that you are not to discuss your evidence with anyone,

10 and that includes members of the Prosecution team.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic. [B/C/S translation on English

14 channel]. I neglected to say the registrar the exhibits produced by

15 Mr. Petrovic -- [B/C/S translation on English channel].

16 We are hearing B/C/S, I think.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think the B/C/S is

18 switched from channel 6 to channel 4.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are we now all right?

20 THE REGISTRAR: Again?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

22 THE REGISTRAR: The witness statement of the 15th and 16th of

23 January, 1995 will be numbered Defence Exhibit 3/2; witness statement date

24 3rd of November, 1994, Defence Exhibit D4/2; the witness statement number

25 023/2, dated 8 December 1994, will be Defence Exhibit D5/2; witness

Page 1909

1 statement number 023/3, date 8 December 1994, will be Defence

2 Exhibit D6/2; undated witness statement, in the right upper corner the

3 number 00685203 on the English version will be Defence Exhibit D7/2; the

4 paper containing five signatures of Witness H will be Defence

5 Exhibit D8/2.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. Mr. Mundis.

7 MR. MUNDIS: [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]. This is a proffer that was

10 prepared by an investigator in the Office of the Prosecutor, and I don't

11 believe there's been any evidence that this witness has even been shown

12 this document or if it was ever read back to him in B/C/S or that he's

13 ever affirmed it in any other way, so we would have an objection with

14 respect to the proffer without any evidentiary foundation that this

15 witness has ever seen this document, and again, it's D7/2.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll deal with the point that you have raised,

17 Mr. Mundis, at a later stage.

18 Mr. Vucicevic.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic:

20 Q. Witness H, my name is Dusan Vucicevic. I am a lawyer from

21 Chicago, and I represent Dragan Kolundzija.

22 I know that you have testified for a long time, and you said this

23 morning, "I know that I was beaten up, but I don't know the exact days

24 when I was beaten up." However - and this is my question - since almost

25 nine years went by and it's difficult for you to remember even when you

Page 1910

1 were beaten up, it may be probable -- it may be possible that you don't

2 remember about many other facts. Do you agree with this?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the witness, please. Did not

4 hear the witness' answer.

5 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. About any answer where you're not sure, please say so, because

7 anything else you might say is superfluous, and if we continue this way,

8 your testimony here will finish within 15 or 20 minutes.

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, the answer on the previous question

11 that the witness stated he was beaten by Banovics did not enter the

12 record.

13 Q. So, Witness, if you'd just like to reaffirm your previous answer.

14 Is that what you said?

15 A. Yes. I was beaten up by the Banovics. I was beaten by Cupo

16 Banovic. I know that date. That was on the 30th of July. And I was

17 taken out on other occasions; I don't know the exact dates. That's what I

18 said yesterday as well.

19 Q. Is it correct that you also don't remember how many times you were

20 beaten because, if you did remember, you would have told us by now in your

21 previous testimony?

22 A. I was beaten during interrogation and upon arrival, on the 30th,

23 that I remember, and one other time. That's what I remember.

24 Q. Will you please be so kind as to tell the Court where you have

25 worked and on what jobs you did since you left the army?

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Page 1912

1 A. I said clearly that I was attached to the army. You mean the

2 Yugoslav People's Army?

3 Q. Yes. Since you completed your regular military service you did in

4 the JNA, what jobs did you do until the 10th of July, 1992? In what

5 enterprises did you work and what jobs you performed?

6 A. I worked in Riboprodukt Sanicani. I worked in Croatia in

7 enterprise Graditelj. I worked in a Zagreb company, Sigurnost. I also

8 worked in a private enterprise owned by Mirsad Kubic. I worked in a kebab

9 shop. From the very beginning of the war, I worked in Slovenia in

10 Lujbljana.

11 Q. Did you work in any other place apart from those you have just

12 enumerated?

13 A. Yes. I worked in the military post, Brcko near Zagreb. I worked

14 for many private entrepreneurs who owned cafes.

15 Q. Did you work in a socially owned or a state-owned company which

16 you did not mention now?

17 A. Graditelj from Sisak.

18 Q. Any other state company in Prijedor, if you remember?

19 A. Yes, Riboprodukt of Sanicani. That's what I mentioned.

20 Q. So you never worked in a wheelbarrow factory in Prijedor?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you ever visit it, at least?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Yesterday, when you were testifying, the Prosecutor asked you this

25 question, and since I quote directly from the transcript, I will read in

Page 1913

1 English. [In English] "Witness, do you recall any of the smells or odours

2 that were in the camp on that evening?" You gave the following answer:

3 "Yes. One could smell something like tear gas. Tear gas was thrown at

4 them, because it has a specific smell and, of course, it itches your eyes

5 and the mucus and the nerves."

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Usher, could you please show the witness the book

7 with the pictures?

8 Q. [Interpretation] Witness H, will you please show us on the

9 photograph where it is most clearly visible in your opinion where was Room

10 2 and Room 3?

11 A. Yes. I will point it out. But before all this camp --

12 Q. Please, this was not the question. Please answer the question

13 because we want to finish this soon.

14 A. This is 1 and this was Room number 2. The room where bread was

15 distributed. And this, somewhere here, was Room 3, behind number 2. And

16 the toilet.

17 Q. As far as you can remember today, what is the distance between

18 Room number 2 and Room number 3?

19 A. Up to 20, 30 metres.

20 Q. It could be 40, couldn't it?

21 A. I think it was around 30 metres.

22 Q. Is it true that Room 3 and Room 4 were adjacent; there was only a

23 partition wall between them?

24 A. I didn't go into Room 3 or Room number 4. I cannot say this with

25 any certainty.

Page 1914

1 MR. VUCICEVIC: [In English] Okay. We are done with the ELMO.

2 Thank you.

3 Q. [Interpretation] When you were testifying yesterday in response to

4 the Prosecutor's questions, you didn't tell us how you could tell the

5 smell of tear gas.

6 A. I said that the smell of tear gas could be felt.

7 Q. Please kindly, if you are able, answer directly my questions

8 because all my questions are based on the record, no more than that.

9 A. Yes. I smelled tear gas.

10 Q. My question is: In order to be able to tell the smell of tear

11 gas, you must have smelled it before in your life.

12 A. Yes, in the former Yugoslav People's Army.

13 Q. Where did you do your regular military service in the Yugoslav

14 People's Army?

15 A. In Novi Sad and in Belgrade.

16 Q. You said you had served in a firefighting unit. Is that true?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please describe what kind of basic training did you have in your

19 unit.

20 A. During my service?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. In the Yugoslav People's Army, first of all, we had to go through

23 infantry training, which I did in Novi Sad. It lasted for about three or

24 four months, since I graduated from the firefighting school. For people

25 that did not have that kind of special training, there was a firefighting

Page 1915

1 course lasting about seven days. After that, we were transferred to other

2 towns.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the number of days

4 wasn't clearly heard.

5 MR. VUCICEVIC: Just to correct the transcript, you have indicated

6 that your basic training was 40 days, 4-0, and not seven days, as it was

7 translated. Are you correct -- are we correct on that one?

8 A. Forty days was the duration of the firefighting course in the

9 Yugoslav People's Army.

10 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you.

11 Q. [Interpretation] So after being transferred, you had no further

12 training?

13 A. No. I did my military service in Belgrade in a firefighting

14 unit.

15 Q. And when did you have occasion to smell tear gas in the army?

16 A. During my infantry training in Novi Sad.

17 Q. So this was routine infantry training, not firefighting training?

18 A. As I have already said, when I came to the JNA, first we went

19 through infantry training as young conscripts. After that, we were

20 assigned depending on how we were recruited.

21 Q. Witness H, I beg you to concentrate on my questions and answer my

22 questions only. My question was: During your basic infantry training,

23 did you smell tear gas for the first time?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Please describe on which occasion this happened.

Page 1916

1 A. This was tactical training when we went out to drill ground. We

2 had -- we were issued with masks. And soldiers, as soldiers do, removed

3 safety catches from these masks, and we could smell tear gas. And when

4 you smell it, it stays with you for a long time, even when this first

5 atomic sensation passes, which sort of irritates your nose, the biting

6 sensation.

7 Q. Do you remember the names of your platoon commander during your

8 training?

9 A. I think it was a young man by the name of Bosko, somewhere from

10 Derventa. And the commander of the company was Mr. Simic, commander of

11 the battalion.

12 Q. Do you remember the name, the first name, of Mr. Simic?

13 A. I don't remember his first name. He came there after being

14 transferred. He wore a blue uniform, not the olive-green/grey one. At

15 this time, this uniform was worn by soldiers who serve at airports.

16 Q. On which month of which year did you have these drills on the

17 drill ground when you smelled tear gas?

18 A. I went to the army on the 6th of January, 1982. It was winter,

19 and my training was during the winter and the spring.

20 Q. What was the name of that drill ground where you had your

21 training?

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vucicevic, is this going to help the Trial Chamber

23 to go into this sort of detail about events 20 years ago?

24 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, indeed it is going to help because --

25 JUDGE MAY: Well, I -- I disagree.

Page 1917

1 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour --

2 JUDGE MAY: Can we move on, please.

3 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, with all due respect, the Witness B,

4 who was in Room 4, has testified to the contrary.

5 JUDGE MAY: You've made your point. You've made your point.

6 You've cross-examined this witness thoroughly about the experience which

7 he's had.

8 Now, that being so, this is a Chamber of professional Judges. We

9 don't need all this detail about events a very long time ago. Now, let's

10 concentrate on what's relevant. You've made your point with his

11 training.

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, the witness has testified -- I'm not

13 arguing with the Court. I just want to explain my line of reasoning.

14 JUDGE MAY: We can follow your line of reasoning. Now let's get

15 on with events which are pertinent to this trial.

16 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, if this witness has discredited his

17 testimony about tear gas with his experience, I would respectfully accept

18 your ruling. However, if we are going to bring the witnesses that are

19 going to testify that there was never such a training at such location, we

20 do need information about the witness, about witness' training,

21 experience, and persons who were present. I mean I'm just merely trying

22 to establish foundation for his testimony and bring the other witness who

23 are either going to corroborate or refute it.

24 JUDGE MAY: You are going to bring witnesses about training in

25 relation to tear gas in the JNA 20 years ago. Is that what you're

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1 proposing to do?

2 MR. VUCICEVIC: At the time and the place that the witness is

3 saying that this indeed had happened.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, I've heard what you have to say.

5 You have laid a sufficient foundation for you to bring the witnesses, who

6 will testify to the contrary. So please move on.

7 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Witness, you were confined in Room number 2 at Keraterm; isn't

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall when Captain Cirkin was brought into Room 2?

12 A. As I have already said, I came to the camp on the 9th of July,

13 Captain Cirkin was not there.

14 Q. Did you hear from the other inmates from Room number 2 how long

15 Captain Cirkin was there?

16 A. I heard he had been there, but not in Room number 2, hall number

17 2.

18 Q. But you don't know whether he was in hall number 1, 2, 3, or 4,

19 because you hadn't been there, you personally?

20 A. Yes. I know that while I personally was there, he was not in hall

21 number 2.

22 Q. In your testimony that you presented on direct examination, this

23 question was posed to you, referring to Kole: "Do you recall

24 approximately how many times you may have seen him before you arrived at

25 the camp?" You answered. "It was on a number of occasions in town. But

Page 1920

1 I wasn't close to him. I did not communicate with him. It was all just

2 in passing."

3 A. Yes, I did give that statement.

4 Q. In a sworn statement that you have given to authorised officer of

5 Ministry of the Interior, Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina on November

6 3, 1994, you have stated the following: [As read] "Kole is about 35 years

7 old, tall, brown hair /?and eyes/, and he may have worked in Kolska in

8 Prijedor because I used to see him there."

9 A. Yes. That's what I said because Kolska was near the railway

10 station. I said yesterday that I saw him there in Prijedor on the bus

11 stop where those cafes and other catering establishments were, where I --

12 which I visited regularly.

13 Q. When you testified in direct, you -- the question was: "Do you

14 recall where you may have seen him in passing in town, what types of

15 places you may have seen him?" You answered: "Yes. I did see him in

16 coffee bars and a number of occasions in Prijedor, at railway station and

17 bus station."

18 My question to you now is: What did Kole do for living?

19 A. I told you it was my opinion that he worked in Kolska. I heard

20 about it. I didn't know that.

21 Q. Please, the question was rather simple. What did he do for a

22 living, if you know? If you don't, you just state that you don't know.

23 A. Yes. He was there in passing, in coffee bars. He was drinking.

24 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I respectfully ask that the witness

25 be instructed to answer the question. The question was rather direct.

Page 1921

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. And I think he had in fact attempted to

2 answer it. I think he said he saw him in coffee bars, a number of places

3 in Prijedor, at railway stations and a bus station.

4 Are you able to say, Witness H, what Kole did for a living? If

5 you are not, then just say so.

6 A. No. I did not know. I did not know exactly where he worked.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: So there you have the answer.

8 MR. VUCICEVIC:

9 Q. But in a sworn statement that you just said now, that you have

10 indeed made, you said you saw him at Kolska. You didn't say you saw him

11 at the restaurant or a cafe at a railroad station. You didn't say at that

12 time that you saw him in coffee bars. You said you saw him at Kolska,

13 right in the big enterprise which employed many people. You saw him in

14 there. How could you explain the difference, what you said in November of

15 1994, when your recollection was indeed so fresh, only two years after

16 these events have transpired, and today, nine years, where you are placing

17 him in all other various locations? And if I may remind you, you have

18 been sworn to tell the whole truth, but not partial truth.

19 A. Yes. It is correct that I said -- it is possible that he worked

20 at Kolska and not that he did work there. I think this is how it was

21 stated, not that I said seen him in Kolska because it was a very large

22 place. I think that I said that I thought that he had worked there.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have the explanation. It's a matter for us

24 now to assess and determine whether we accept it or not. So please move

25 on to another point.

Page 1922

1 MR. VUCICEVIC:

2 Q. Isn't it true that in Prijedor, and in many other cities that you

3 were at, that somebody by name Kosta could be called Kole, somebody by

4 named Kostic could be called Kole? Kole is a nickname that people with a

5 similar names are called; isn't it true?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you testified there are so many people that worked in Kolska,

8 so it is highly likely that there was another Kole who worked there?

9 A. Yes. But I said that I saw that man on several occasions around

10 the railway stations, in those bars, so that was that person.

11 Q. So isn't that a fact that people who hang about the restaurants

12 and the railroad station in Prijedor and other ones are usually those that

13 were either alcoholics or problematic characters, because those

14 restaurants never closed up? They were open 24 hours; weren't they?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I see Mr. Mundis rising.

16 That's not a proper question to ask the witness.

17 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, he has testified he has seen him

18 there and there was testimony that Banovic was identified being there most

19 of the time, and, you know, I just want to find out does he know.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but you're asking him to say whether people

21 who hang about the restaurants are usually people who are either

22 alcoholics or problematic characters because those restaurants are never

23 closed.

24 Can you say that, Witness H?

25 A. As I already said, the people who were there were not really

Page 1923

1 alcoholics. These were people who were travelling, because it was the

2 railway station and these were places that were well-appointed. And the

3 young people also patronised them.

4 MR. VUCICEVIC:

5 Q. [Previous translation continues]... in one of those restaurants at

6 Kolska or the railroad station?

7 A. First of all, as I said, I didn't have access to Kolska, and I did

8 not work there. And as far as Cupo Banovic is concerned, I could see him

9 before the war around the express place and maybe even the railway

10 station.

11 Q. Did you see Zigic at the restaurant by the railroad station?

12 A. Zigic was everywhere.

13 Q. I'm asking you if you remember whether you saw him at any time at

14 that particular location.

15 A. No.

16 Q. You have testified yesterday that you did not know the name of a

17 gentleman whom you identified here in court before you came to the

18 Keraterm and that you just saw him in passing; isn't that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you have also testified that you have seen him there for the

21 three weeks while you were there, indicating that you could see him on

22 every second day if the doors were open. That is direct quotations from

23 your yesterday's testimony. Isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes, if it was his shift, because I did not see Mr. Kole coming to

25 the camp unless his shift was on duty.

Page 1924

1 Q. We certainly agree on that one. However, Kole wasn't there for

2 three weeks for you to see him. Do you remember that?

3 A. Yes. I clearly said that I did not know what the order of shifts

4 was, but every other day. If this is how their shift changed, he would be

5 on.

6 Q. What I'm trying to emphasise is that you don't remember whether

7 Kole was there for three weeks or two weeks during your stay in Keraterm.

8 That you don't remember, do you?

9 A. As I said, I arrived in the camp on the 9th July, and from that

10 day until the closure of the camp, Kole was there when his shift was on

11 duty. I stated that clearly. He was in the camp. That means that I was

12 able to see him. I could see him.

13 Q. After July 24th until the time that Keraterm was disbanded, how

14 many times did you see Kole in Keraterm?

15 A. I cannot say exactly. As I said, I could see him as many times as

16 his -- as the number of shifts that he was on if he was there.

17 Q. So perhaps from your answer this proposition may be correct, that

18 you, throughout this period of time, from 24th until the August 5th, you

19 haven't seen him one single time. Do you agree with me? Only throughout

20 that period of time.

21 A. No.

22 Q. So that was ten days that we are talking, from 25th through the

23 5th. And since you stated before that you -- that the shifts were

24 changing, rotating every two days, that follows that you have seen him

25 there five times. Have you seen him there five times in that period of

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1 time?

2 A. I said that I saw Mr. Kole during his shift, and I can't know

3 about all the shifts.

4 Q. Let's go back from the time that you for -- the first time that

5 somebody told you this was Kole. Who was that who told you this was

6 Kole? I only want to know the name, nothing else, if you remember. If

7 you don't, say just you don't remember.

8 A. How can I say before Their Honours and perhaps --

9 Q. Witness, we want to move on, as you heard the Court saying for so

10 often. I'm only asking you a direct question and I'm asking for the

11 answer. Who told you this was Kole? If you don't remember, you don't

12 remember. I'll ask the following question. Please.

13 A. First of all, the inmates, and I personally met him in front of

14 the reception hut.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues]... we'll move on. So neither

16 then nor now, you don't remember the name of the man who said this was

17 Kole, do you?

18 A. I personally met Kole in front of the reception hut.

19 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Previous translation continues]... I have no more

20 questions, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic.

22 Any re-examination, Mr. Mundis?

23 MR. MUNDIS: No, Your Honour, but just for clarification, with

24 respect to Defence Exhibits D3/2 through D7/2, we would respectfully

25 request that those be under seal since obviously as statements of the

Page 1927

1 witness they contain information that would identify him.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That will be so, and we will also be giving

3 consideration to the submissions you made about D7/2.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness H, that concludes your testimony. You

6 may go.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. Prior to calling the next

11 witness, I want to indicate that we are acutely aware of Your Honours'

12 ruling concerning -- or the suggestion that the Prosecution should carry

13 out a very careful review as to what number of witnesses we would be

14 asking protective measures for.

15 The difficulty with the next witness is that he has given evidence

16 in previous proceedings and did so in open testimony. Circumstances,

17 however, have drastically changed since 1996, when he testified, and the

18 witness has been given a pseudonym in these proceedings, but - sorry. My

19 microphone - but is now -- is now asking for protective measures.

20 We have tried to explain to him the difficulty about the fine

21 balancing act that the Court needs to perform between granting protective

22 measures for certain witnesses under certain circumstances and the

23 requirement for as open a proceeding as possible.

24 The witness insists, however, I'm told, that an application be

25 made for protective measures and, under Rule 75(B), I understand that this

Page 1928

1 Court can ask for an in-camera proceeding in order to canvass the reasons

2 why, in this particular case, the witness ought be granted those

3 protective measures that he is seeking, even though, back in 1996, he did

4 testify in open proceedings.

5 I had canvassed this matter with my friends yesterday, and was led

6 to believe that there would be no objection. This morning, however, I

7 understand that the -- that one of my friends reconsidered the fact that

8 the witness had given evidence in open proceedings in 1996 and

9 accordingly, I understand, does have an objection.

10 I would propose that we call the witness in private session and

11 have him give the reasons to Your Honours as to why it is that he feels

12 that the circumstances have changed whereby the court ought to grant

13 protective measures to him. My concern is that he's indicated to us that

14 if he's not granted protective measures, he may not testify of his own

15 volition. Those are my concerns.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, would you just indicate to us what

17 are the changed circumstances?

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I can, Your Honour. My understanding is that,

19 as you are aware, in 1996, there was not the same political climate in

20 Bosnia that allowed people to go back to their homes. In very recent

21 years, there is not only a very strong push for that, but the witnesses

22 and their relatives are in fact returning. This particular witness, I

23 understand, has an elderly father who is going to be returning within a

24 month or two, and the witness himself wants to relocate from a foreign

25 country to -- back to this area, and feels that those circumstances,

Page 1929

1 especially for his family, are such that he does not want his visage, as

2 it were, made known to members of the public who now, since technology and

3 CNN, could be watching this broadcast live in Bosnia and see his face, and

4 the granting of a pseudonym is of absolutely no help to him or his family

5 if they are returning in the immediate future. I believe -- I believe him

6 when he says that he is concerned for his family's safety and does not

7 want to risk or jeopardise the safety of his family members, and of

8 course, he is a significant witness for the Prosecution.

9 Those, I understand, are the changed circumstances, that in 1996,

10 when he didn't seek protective measures, the climate was totally

11 different. These people did not then know that they would be able to go

12 back. Now it's not only they can go back, but they are returning, and

13 their relatives are returning.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld. Yes,

15 Mr. Petrovic?

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you will allow me

17 to comment on this proposal. We strongly oppose the protective measures

18 for this witness, and I'll give you the reasons for this. The first thing

19 is that this witness has testified twice, in July 1996 and then again in

20 November of 1996, with his -- he testified without any protective

21 measures, with his full name. At that time, in 1996, the situation in

22 Bosnia, that is true, was very different. It is true that it was

23 different, in the sense that now it is much better. Thousands of people

24 have returned to the Prijedor area. The houses in the Kozarac have been

25 repaired and people have been living in them for now a year or two. We

Page 1930

1 have a drastic change of situation, the change for better. And the

2 situation that we are discussing, I have not heard from my learned friend

3 that the witness, who testified in the Tadic case, had any problems after

4 two testimonies -- two of his testimonies in open court.

5 The second point is that this witness is giving very damaging

6 evidence against our client, evidence that cannot be found in hundreds of

7 other statements that we have been discovered to us, and this is why we

8 believe, because the serious charges that this witness is trying to give

9 before this Trial Chamber, he is trying to hide, he is trying to hide

10 behind his scrambled voice and his concealed identity. It is the first

11 time that he is speaking out about Keraterm, and it raises very serious

12 suspicions in the eyes of the Dosen counsel, that he may have special

13 reasons to want to give testimony under such protective measures.

14 So I would like the Trial Chamber to bear this in mind, as well as

15 the fact that what we have suggested yesterday, that is that the witness

16 should say what he has to say in open court, because he is going to give

17 very serious evidence against our client.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Vucicevic?

19 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Previous translation continues]... proposition

20 from my learned friend from the Office of the Prosecutor. On principle,

21 again, in particular, the situation in Bosnia has changed. However, I

22 would like to remind you what I said in my opening statement, the fear,

23 rational or irrational, was a problem when this conflict started, but as

24 this judicial body is attempting to heal to a degree wounds of those

25 people by finding the truth, giving -- yielding to the tenuous even

Page 1931

1 threats that the witness could withdraw would be perhaps, not on the part

2 of the Trial Chamber or any officers sitting in this court, to countenance

3 somebody's misstatements or allowing somebody to disavow what he has said

4 in the past. We all know that under the cloaks, there are a lot of things

5 that do not smell. And from that point, I would like to refer you at the

6 statute, which grants the accused a right of the public trial.

7 So I respectfully ask you to reject this application.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic. Mr. Greaves?

9 Mr. Londrovic?

10 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of the

11 accused Sikirica absolutely seconds the positions of my learned

12 colleagues, Petrovic and Vucicevic. We oppose the application of the

13 Prosecution for protective measures. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, in reply?

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, one matter for clarification and the other

16 matter for something that I didn't mention. My friend suggests that we

17 are asking both for the facial distortion and scrambled voice. That is

18 not the case. Only the facial distortion, nothing to do with the voice.

19 He has, as I understand it, at least at the Pre-Trial phase, been granted

20 a pseudonym, K13.

21 The other issue that I have not mentioned is that in your

22 considerations, and in determining whether or not this is a reasonably

23 held fear or whether or not it is at least a fear that the witness may

24 have for the safety of family members as opposed to for himself, consider

25 the fact that there are still currently indictees at large which may play

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1 a large role in the witness' concerns about the safety of family members.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, has the witness clearly indicated

3 to you that he intends to return?

4 MR. RYNEVELD: The last information that I have -- I did not speak

5 to the witness personally, but I have spoken to members of our -- of the

6 Prosecution staff who have spoken to him about that issue, and my

7 understanding -- what I have been told unequivocally is that his father is

8 intending to return very soon, within the next few months, and this

9 witness does intend to return at some future time. I have not been told,

10 nor can I assist the court, with what "at some future time" means. I took

11 it to mean -- well, that would be speculation on my part. I could, if I

12 get a short break, either call the witness for the Court to ask him

13 questions or make some inquiries about that issue, should you require

14 further information.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the date of the last trial that he

16 testified in?

17 MR. RYNEVELD: As I believe Mr. Petrovic indicated, it was 1996.

18 It was the Tadic case. And I believe he was called on -- I have --

19 actually, I have the dates right here.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's sufficient information.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness be brought in for the Chamber to

25 ask some questions of the witness.

Page 1934

1 MR. RYNEVELD: And should that be in private session?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: In closed session, yes.

5 [Closed session]

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1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.50 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 2.22 p.m.

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, you have a witness?

5 MS. BALY: I have a witness. Call, please, Ante Tomic.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 WITNESS: ANTE TOMIC

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please be seated.

13 Yes, Ms. Baly.

14 Examined by Ms. Baly:

15 Q. Is your name Ante Tomic and are you a Croatian by ethnicity?

16 A. Yes.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to move a bit closer

18 to the microphones, please.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tomic, would you come closer to the

20 microphone, please. Bring your chair forward.

21 MS. BALY:

22 Q. Mr. Tomic, were you born on the 1st of January, 1958, and did

23 you -- prior to the war, did you live in the town of Ljubija?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it the case that Ljubija had a population of about 12.000

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1 people?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The town of Ljubija is located just outside Ljubija proper, on the

4 road to Prijedor; is that correct?

5 A. I did not understand the question.

6 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. In particular, did you live in Donji Ljubija?

7 A. No. In Gornji Ljubija or Upper Ljubija.

8 Q. Is it the case that Ljubija, that is prior to the war, had,

9 roughly speaking, a population that was 50 per cent Croatian, 30 per cent

10 Muslim, and 20 per cent Serbian?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it the case that the villages surrounding Ljubija were entirely

13 Croatian?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Tomic, in 1976, after you received a diploma from Ljubija high

16 school, did you attend a period of compulsory military service in the JNA

17 and was that in 1981?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you deployed for a period of time in Belgrade?

20 A. I was in Belgrade the whole time.

21 Q. And was that about a one-year period?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then in 1983, did you return to Prijedor and commence

24 employment in a workshop in Prijedor and then the following year commence

25 a job with the Omarska mines?

Page 1941

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you work in that position until the start of the war, that is,

3 in May of 1992?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. In 1991 and 1992, did you receive four mobilisation summonses?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And is it the case, Mr. Tomic, that you didn't respond to those

8 summonses?

9 A. That is correct, I did not.

10 Q. Why was that?

11 A. One was supposed to go to some -- to a war which for me -- in

12 fact, against which I was, against that war.

13 Q. Your particular reserve unit, was that -- were you told where your

14 particular reserve unit was going to be deployed?

15 A. Yes. It was said that it was to be for the defence of Bosnia,

16 that they would be deployed on the borders of Bosnia.

17 Q. And is that in fact what took place, to your knowledge?

18 A. I know that that isn't exactly what happened. My unit went to the

19 front in Croatia, mostly Lipik and Pakrac.

20 Q. Is it the case, Mr. Tomic, that you supported the reformist party

21 of Ante Markovic?

22 A. Yes. In the last election in Bosnia-Herzegovina, I voted for the

23 reformist party.

24 Q. Can you just explain briefly to the court what the political

25 platform of that party was?

Page 1942

1 A. Everything was based on the economy. It was less a political, a

2 more economic-based party.

3 Q. Is it the case that it didn't fare very well in the elections that

4 were held in 1991, or possibly in 1992?

5 A. In all of Bosnia-Herzegovina, from what I knew, they only won in

6 Tuzla, and otherwise they fared fairly poorly in the elections.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, can I take you, please, to April the 30th, 1992?

8 On that day, was the municipality of Prijedor taken over by the Serbs?

9 A. Yes. On the 30th of April, the SDS party took over the power in

10 the municipality.

11 Q. Were you in Ljubija that day? And if so, what were you doing?

12 A. That evening, I was in a coffee bar, and around 10.00 a -- police

13 officers came in and said that we should leave and that the place should

14 close, that there was a curfew. These were -- this is the first knowledge

15 I had about the change of power in the municipality.

16 Q. Was it the case that the curfew was to be observed after 10.00 at

17 night?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you also notice that there were a lot of troops in the area?

20 A. Not more than the usual numbers.

21 Q. Did you notice anything at that time about the situation with

22 regard to weapons?

23 A. Because there were these non-stop mobilisations going on, people

24 were coming back from the front. They brought weapons with them. The

25 weapons were distributed to particular groups of people. Many were

Page 1943

1 armed. Weapons were to be found all over the place.

2 Q. Which particular groups received these weapons?

3 A. Weapons were received by Serbs.

4 Q. Did you notice any heavy weapons in the area?

5 A. Specifically in Ljubija, I did not.

6 Q. What about in the villages surrounding Ljubija?

7 A. In this period, people didn't dare go out, so I don't know what

8 was going on in the villages except from what people were saying.

9 Q. Now, you've given some evidence that a curfew was imposed and that

10 curfew was to be observed after 10.00. Did you in fact observe the

11 curfew?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you participate in any demonstrations against that curfew?

14 A. Yes. Every night, we organised ourselves and we would organise

15 walks or strolls that took place for 30 or 45 minutes, until we would be

16 dispersed by the police.

17 Q. Who was it that organised and participated in these walks, and was

18 there any political connection of any political party involved in the

19 walks?

20 A. There was no party involved. We did it spontaneously. Every

21 night the same people showed up, young women from Ljubija, and we

22 socialised. It was people from this cafe, and we would start from this

23 cafe where we usually gathered, and we would start walking about and there

24 would be 20 or 30 of us involved.

25 Q. Can I direct your attention towards the structure of the police

Page 1944

1 force in Ljubija. What, prior to the takeover, roughly speaking, was the

2 structure insofar as the ethnicity of the policemen was concerned?

3 A. I had not much contact with the police, but -- but the police that

4 was in place before the takeover of power went on. In other words, there

5 were Muslims and Croats and Serbs. The commander was an ethnic Croat,

6 Branko Bjekic, and he remain the commander.

7 Q. Did you have any knowledge of the Territorial Defence and what was

8 taking place in that respect at that time?

9 A. I did not know anything special about them. I knew that they were

10 there, that they were stationed in the former secondary school in

11 Ljubija. It was a technical school.

12 Q. Mr. Tomic, on the 24th of May, 1992, did you attend your

13 workplace, that is, at Omarska mines, and did you attend there on an

14 ordinary bus?

15 A. Yes, except we did not take the usual route that we used to take

16 every day.

17 Q. And why was that?

18 A. We arrived in Prijedor by the usual route, but we took a

19 roundabout way to come back because we had heard that there were some

20 protests or demonstrations going on in Ljubija.

21 Q. Did you -- that evening when you returned home, did you become

22 aware of a shooting that had taken place in the village of Hambarine?

23 A. On the way back from Omarska, first of all, they didn't let us

24 through. They didn't let the bus through to go to Ljubija. They wanted

25 us to go back because allegedly there was shooting at Hambarine. That was

Page 1945

1 between Ljubija and Prijedor. But the driver took us to Ljubija using an

2 alternate route. And then we later heard that there was an exchange of

3 fire between the Territorial Defence that was on the road below Hambarine

4 and the Serb soldiers. This is what we learned that evening, that day.

5 Q. Did you eventually arrive in Ljubija safely?

6 A. Yes, with some stoppages, but we arrived safely.

7 Q. And I think that evening you were visited by -- by a man who

8 indicated that the army seemed ready to attack; is that correct?

9 A. He didn't come to me. I was again in the same coffee bar that

10 night, and a man from Donja Ljubija came in and said that the military was

11 on the move and they were preparing to attack.

12 Q. Did you -- what did you do in response to finding out that?

13 A. With several other friends, we prepared ourselves. I put on my

14 military uniform, and we went to -- in the direction of Donja Ljubija.

15 Halfway on the way, we were stopped by members of the Territorial Defence

16 and barred us from continuing on our way and took us to that school

17 building. Then the sirens sounded so that we stayed in that school

18 building.

19 Q. And this school building was in Ljubija; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, it was.

21 Q. Now, can I take you to around the middle of June? At that time

22 were you still in Ljubija and did something happen to you? And if so,

23 what happened?

24 A. I don't know specifically, nothing special was happening except

25 that one could not leave Ljubija. The phone lines outside were all

Page 1946

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Page 1947

1 severed. We had no communications with Prijedor. You couldn't go

2 anywhere. Buses were not running. We were completely isolated.

3 Q. Sometime toward the middle of June, in the night, did something

4 specifically happen to you?

5 A. Yes. In the night of 13 and 14 June, I was arrested by the Serb

6 soldiers and that happened in my apartment in -- at my house.

7 Q. Did you know who these Serb soldiers were? And if so, who were

8 they?

9 A. These were my first-door neighbours, two of them. Two of them

10 came to the apartment, Radenko Djuric, and I cannot remember the other

11 one's name now.

12 Q. Where were you taken?

13 A. I was taken out of my apartment and there was a van waiting.

14 There were another 12 people there who had been detained the same night.

15 And at first, they took us to the Rudar soccer stadium. They kept us

16 there for about one hour. And then they all put us in the -- in this van

17 again and took us to Prijedor. That is to Keraterm.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Tomic, those other prisoners in the van, what ethnicity

19 were they?

20 A. Muslims and Croats.

21 Q. And how did they appear to you? Did they appear to be in good

22 health to you?

23 A. Well, they did except for one who had been beaten up.

24 Q. Now --

25 A. And he was barefoot. One of them had his pyjamas on. But except

Page 1948

1 for one, the others were all in good health.

2 Q. Now, turning to your arrival at the Keraterm camp, is it the case

3 that you remained in Keraterm until the 4th of July, 1992?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And on that day, were you transferred to the Omarska Detention

6 Centre?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Tomic, do you know who the person was -- or who was involved

9 in organising the arrest of the non-Serbs from your area?

10 A. There were several people who were arresting and demanding --

11 detaining people and others who compiled lists of people for certain

12 camps.

13 Q. Do you know whether anyone was in charge of that process, and if

14 so, who was that person?

15 A. I know people who were leading that Ljubija staff, and they were

16 probably responsible for that, for the lists, for arrests, for detaining

17 people. They were all my --

18 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, objection to this latest testimony.

19 I believe that Ms. Baly could develop the foundation, if he had known

20 those men, who they were, how did they get it. It is not the matter how

21 it's presented, but basically whether the witness had known all those

22 details that make his foundation credible, that make his testimony

23 credible.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's for the witness to say whether he knew

25 anyone who was in charge of the process, and if so, who was that person.

Page 1949

1 Are you able to say precisely? Do you know who was in charge of the

2 process?

3 A. I know who was the main person in the Crisis Staff in Ljubija.

4 That was a man named Taranjac.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Ms. Baly.

6 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Tomic, were you present and did you see new prisoners arriving

8 at Keraterm?

9 A. Yes. New prisoners were arriving daily.

10 Q. And was there any particular person who would bring those

11 prisoners to Keraterm?

12 A. Most often, most frequently, it was Milan Curguz called Krivi who

13 was bringing them but other policemen from Ljubija also brought

14 prisoners.

15 Q. Now, is it the case that you actually arrived at Keraterm very

16 early one morning at about 5.30?

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, an objection.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I think that from this point on, I

20 think that we should refrain from leading questions because we're coming

21 to an area that is directly relevant to the case.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: It seems, Ms. Baly, that we're approaching

23 controversial matters, so no more leading.

24 MS. BALY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. What time, Mr. Tomic, did you arrive at Keraterm?

Page 1950

1 A. We arrived at Keraterm early in the morning, about 5.00, 5.30.

2 Q. Can you explain briefly, please, what happened upon your arrival

3 at the camp?

4 A. We arrived in front of the entrance to the camp. We got off the

5 van, and we had our names taken down, and then they were let into the camp

6 and brought in front of the factory with the plant of Keraterm.

7 Q. Were you detained in any particular room while you were at

8 Keraterm camp, and if so, what room was it?

9 A. Nobody assigned us to any room. We were just left there. And

10 this group which I was did not find room, and we went to Room 2.

11 Q. Did you remain in Room 2 for the entire period in which you were

12 detained at Keraterm?

13 A. No. The first day we spent in Room 2, and in the evening, we were

14 transferred to Room 4. And I moved back and forth several times between

15 Rooms 2 and 4, back and forth.

16 Q. Why did you do that and how were you able to do that?

17 A. That first night we spent in Room 4. By the next day, we decided

18 to move back to Room 2 because we felt that it was safer to be in a room

19 where more people were staying, because we felt that it was dangerous.

20 Q. Mr. Tomic, were there other persons from Ljubija detained at

21 Keraterm, and if so, can you indicate to the Court how many?

22 A. This first group that arrived 13th to 14th June, we met up with

23 two other local Ljubija men who had been captured previously in Prijedor,

24 and after that, daily new arrivals were coming in, so that in the end we

25 were 115.

Page 1951

1 Q. How do you know there was 115 from Ljubija there?

2 A. Because one day before we were to leave Keraterm, a list was

3 compiled with 115 men from Ljubija.

4 Q. Mr. Tomic, were you involved in compiling any other lists of

5 detainees while you were at Keraterm camp?

6 A. Yes. On one occasion while I was in Room 2, one of the prisoners,

7 Milan Anusic, called Nono, got a notebook and an order to take down the

8 names of all those who were in this room. He wrote down 250 names, and he

9 asked me to finish off the list, and I did the job, and the last number

10 entered was 396.

11 Q. From whom did he receive this order and where did he get the

12 notebook?

13 A. Both the notebook and the order came from Kajin.

14 Q. What happened to this list?

15 A. Anusic kept a list throughout that period, and if needed, if the

16 shift leader asked for someone -- was asking for someone, they would use

17 that notebook. People would move from room to room to hide, so they would

18 go around using these lists to try to find people.

19 Q. Do you know what eventually happened to that list?

20 A. After about three weeks, we left Keraterm and the list remained in

21 Keraterm. I don't know with whom.

22 Q. Now, you referred to a person, Kajin. What position did that

23 person occupy in the camp?

24 A. From what I know, Kajin was one of the shift leaders.

25 Q. How many shift leaders were there and can you name them, the

Page 1952

1 others, please?

2 A. While I was there, I knew of Kajin, Tomo, Kole. I don't know what

3 Sikirica was, but that name also featured. I don't know if he

4 specifically was also there or not.

5 Q. Returning to Kajin, do you know the full name of that person?

6 A. No, not at that time. Only Kajin. That is how everybody referred

7 to him.

8 Q. Did you know Kajin prior to your detention in the camp?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Are you able now, please, to describe to the court what that

11 person Kajin looked like, both in terms of his physical body and the

12 clothing that he wore in the camp?

13 A. Kajin was about 24, 25 years old. He was quite tall. He was

14 perhaps 185, 190 centimetres tall. I don't know what else to say. We did

15 not have much contact. I saw him on a daily basis but, as I said, I had

16 not known him before, and the only contacts we had were in the camp.

17 Q. What clothing did he wear when you saw him in the camp?

18 A. I think that he was wearing a blue police uniform.

19 Q. And how do you know, Mr. Tomic, that he was a shift commander?

20 A. By his behaviour and also by the fact that the keys to the rooms

21 in which we were locked were -- would be carried around by him. He would

22 open and lock and unlock these doors, and he would order other guards to

23 do it. And by the stories of other inmates who had already been there.

24 Q. Mr. Tomic, if you were to see this person Kajin today, do you

25 think you'd be able to recognise him?

Page 1953

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Page 1954

1 A. I'm not certain that I would recognise him.

2 Q. Now, can I take you back and ask you to focus again on the first

3 day that you arrived in the camp? And just indicate what happened on that

4 day.

5 A. That day, after our arrival, when we settled in, several hours

6 later, maybe 9.00, 10.00, 11.00, we were in front of this hall, and all of

7 a sudden there was some commotion. Everybody ran into the rooms, and

8 those of us who were new there did the same. We entered Room 2 and they

9 started shouting, "There's Duca." And this Duca appeared with another

10 soldier, and they came straight to Room 2. There, they asked for a man

11 whose identity card they had with them, and apparently they were looking

12 for him. Allegedly he had raped some Serb woman, and allegedly they had

13 found that identity card on that site. Then they beat him. When they

14 were finished, they started beating another person, a person to whom they

15 referred as a sniper. That took several minutes. Then they left the

16 room. And then they took out prisoners from Room 3. Then they beat them

17 outside, in front of the building.

18 Q. Who is this person Duca to whom you've referred?

19 A. That too was a Serb soldier who often came to the camp, and each

20 time when he came, there would be people beaten and killed. I mean, I

21 didn't know him personally before. I met him there for the first time.

22 Rather, I saw him there, not met him.

23 Q. You've referred to another person, another soldier, you said would

24 come with him. Do you know the name of that other soldier?

25 A. No.

Page 1955

1 Q. Was there an inmate in the camp who was known as Singaporac?

2 A. Yes. Singaporac or the sniper. They called him sometimes this,

3 sometimes the other. That man too was in Room number 2 with me.

4 Q. And what happened to him?

5 A. When I came to the camp, he was lying in a corner on pallets of

6 some kind. We could only smell the stench coming from him. He hadn't

7 moved for days. He was badly beaten up but still alive. On that first

8 day when Duca appeared, he asked him -- that is, he demanded that the man

9 stand up, but the man couldn't stand up. He couldn't move. Duca kicked

10 him several times, and a day or two later, this man, Singaporac, died.

11 Q. What happened to his body?

12 A. The corpse was removed and lay outside the building the whole day

13 in the direction of Room number 3, where boxes of -- crates of bottles

14 were standing.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Tomic, earlier you referred to some prisoners from Room 3

16 being beaten by this Duca person. Were any of the camp personnel present

17 at that incident?

18 A. In that incident, while Duca was beating them, we were all locked

19 up inside Room number 2 and we could only hear what was going on outside.

20 And after Duca left, when the situation calmed down a little, of course we

21 all went out. I saw other guards, including Kajin.

22 Q. And what did you see Kajin doing and where did you see him?

23 A. He was walking about among the prisoners. He was there a couple

24 of minutes after Duca and the others left. The people from Room number 3

25 were still screaming with pain from the injuries they sustained, but he

Page 1956

1 was outside with the other guards.

2 Q. You said earlier that people were not specifically directed to

3 attend -- to be housed in any particular room. What was the situation

4 insofar as the rooms are concerned and the make-up of the people in each

5 of the rooms?

6 A. In Room number 2, people were mostly from Prijedor, the majority

7 of them, of course, from Puharska. In my room where I spent most of the

8 time, in Room number 2, there were people from Kozarac, Kamicani, from

9 Brdo, and in Room number 3, it was the same. And when later Room number 4

10 was open, the majority of detainees from Puharska and there were a couple

11 of people from Ljubija. People from Ljubija were mainly in rooms number 4

12 and 2.

13 Q. And you said earlier that the prisoners who were beaten were from

14 Room number 3, the prisoners that Duca beat. My question is: Did you see

15 Duca do anything else to those prisoners apart from beat them?

16 A. He would pick two men each time and force them to beat each

17 other. The detainees had to beat each other.

18 Q. Now, just for clarity's sake, where were you when that took

19 place?

20 A. I was in Room number 2, and all of that was happening outside Room

21 number 2, between Room number 2 and Room number 3.

22 Q. Could you see that?

23 A. I couldn't see it, but we could hear it all because there were

24 just a wall between us. It's just a matter of a couple of metres. We

25 could hear everything. All the sounds came from the barred door.

Page 1957

1 Q. Whilst you were in the camp, did a person by the name of Drago

2 Tokmadzic become an inmate at the camp?

3 A. During the first days after my arrival at the camp, Drago

4 Tokmadzic would bring inmates. He was a policeman in Prijedor. At that

5 time he was already working in Ljubija. And together with Esad Islamovic

6 and on a daily basis or, rather, not every day, but he would bring inmates

7 from Ljubija to Keraterm in his capacity as policeman. And one day the

8 two of them came again together. We thought they had brought new inmates,

9 but on that day was them who were brought as detainees.

10 Q. What, if anything, happened to Drago Tokmadzic and Esad Islamovic

11 after they'd been brought to the camp as inmates?

12 A. I cannot remember whether it was on the first or the second day

13 after their arrival at the camp. They were placed into Room 4 and they

14 were taken out one night. During that night, Drago Tokmadzic was killed.

15 Esad was in a similar condition, but still he survived. Drago was killed

16 that night, he succumbed.

17 Q. Did you see what happened to them?

18 A. The same thing as before. I was listening the whole time to what

19 was going on with them, how they were being beaten. I couldn't see it.

20 Q. Do you know who beat them?

21 A. The same as before. I could only judge by the voices. And it was

22 not only me but the others as well who were in the vicinity and who were

23 listening. We recognised Duca, Zigic, and Banovic. I assume another

24 person was involved from Brdo, but I could not confirm this with any

25 certainty, and nobody else could confirm it.

Page 1958

1 Q. Now, you've indicated to the Court something about Duca. Do you

2 know who this person Zigic was, and if so, how do you know him?

3 A. It's Zigic, actually. Zigic was a taxi driver in Prijedor, and I

4 know him by sight. I didn't really know him personally or socialise with

5 him, but I knew him.

6 Q. And what about the person Banovic you've referred to?

7 A. The Banovics are twin brothers who worked there as guards. I

8 can't say anything bad about one of the brothers, but as far as the other

9 is concerned, my experiences are unpleasant.

10 Q. Can you describe just briefly what this other person, this one

11 that you said was unpleasant, looked like?

12 A. He was small, short. He had longish hair. We called him Cupo

13 because he was disheveled. He would always play with a knife, throw it

14 into the air, and he would throw it at me. And one day he slapped me on

15 the face just because I was wearing glasses which had darkened in the

16 sun. He thought it was some kind of provocation, whereas I was simply

17 wearing sun shades, and that was enough reason for him to slap me.

18 Q. Now, you said that you didn't see what happened but you could hear

19 the voices. Did you hear those voices referring to each other by name,

20 that is Duca, Ziga, Zigic and Banovic?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Was there ever an occasion, Mr. Tomic, when guards took inmates

23 out of the camp for any specific purpose?

24 A. I'm aware of one time when they took out five to six inmates,

25 volunteers, and went with them to some rooms opposite Keraterm. Those

Page 1959

1 were some sort of warehouses. And for an entire day, they sort of carried

2 some sort of stuff which was in that warehouse, and they worked there the

3 whole day. And I know of another occasion when one of the inmates went

4 home and was returned the same day. He had gone to see his family, to

5 have a shower, and was returned on the same day.

6 Q. Just referring to the earlier occasion, how do you know what went

7 on there? Were you told that?

8 A. Will you please repeat this question?

9 Q. You referred earlier to an occasion when some volunteers were

10 taken out of the camp and had to look through some goods. How do you know

11 what they had to do?

12 A. I know because among these people were some of my acquaintances,

13 including my best man, Mirsad Radic, and he told me all about what they

14 had done there. Also he brought a piece of carpeting from that warehouse

15 on which he prayed every day for all those who had been killed at the

16 camp.

17 Q. Did he tell you what in particular these goods were?

18 A. Those were things which had been brought, stolen, from villages

19 which had been torched, such as television sets, household appliances,

20 furniture, tractors, and they sorted these things for an entire day,

21 classified them sort of.

22 Q. Do you know why they volunteered to do this?

23 A. Perhaps the most important reason for anyone to do any sort of

24 work was their expectation that they would get something extra to eat.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Tomic, were there any persons of Albanian ethnicity

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Page 1961

1 detained in the camp while you were there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did anything happen to any of those? And if so -- any of those

4 people? And if so, what happened?

5 A. There were Albanians. Some of them I knew personally. Or rather,

6 from the very beginning, one of those Albanians, by the name of Bedzeti,

7 was taken out every day, and that night when Drago Tokmadzic was killed

8 and when Esad was beaten up, this Bedzeti was called out again and another

9 man, another Albanian, was called out. He was the proprietor of the

10 pastry shop called the Zvjezdas and his nickname was Zvjezdas. They

11 called out another two Albanians who were also taken out and beaten up.

12 There was an underage boy by the name of Jusufi, 17 years old, and another

13 was also a pastry shop owner, Fejzo Fejzulahu. As far as Jusufi is

14 concerned, I later heard that he survived that particular incident but he

15 didn't survive the next one. He was killed in Keraterm. While Fejzulahu

16 did survive, went to Omarska, from Omarska he went to Manjaca, and he

17 lives in Germany today. As for Bedzeti, I heard later that he was killed

18 in Keraterm too.

19 Q. Mr. Tomic, were there any persons, to your knowledge, of Serbian

20 ethnicity detained in Keraterm camp while you were there?

21 A. I'm aware of two persons. One was Jovan Radocaj, and another one

22 whose name doesn't matter really. He was half Serb. His father was a

23 Serb and his mother was Croatian, and he asked us not to mention that he

24 was a Serb, and he was with us the whole time, and he got out of Keraterm,

25 left for Omarska, and further on, to Manjaca -- and then on, sorry.

Page 1962

1 Q. And what happened to Jovan Radocaj?

2 A. Radocaj was called out one night and allegedly he was caught by

3 mistake. And they asked who the hell had brought him to the camp, what

4 kind of fool. And somebody unlocked the door, he was released, and while

5 he was leaving, he only said, "It's all over," and they started beating

6 him immediately outside the building, and he was killed that night, that

7 evening.

8 Q. Did you see who was beating him?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. Do you know why he was beaten and killed?

11 A. Allegedly he had voted for the SDA at the elections, and there

12 were those SDA posters in his house. Even I know that, because I used to

13 see them while passing by his house.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Tomic, while you were detained in Keraterm camp, were you

15 ever questioned or interrogated?

16 A. No. Not one of the detainees who were from Ljubija was

17 interrogated.

18 Q. And you said earlier that you left Keraterm camp on July the 4th.

19 Where did you go from Keraterm?

20 A. From Keraterm, they transferred us to the Omarska camp.

21 Q. When you say "us," to whom are you referring?

22 A. I'm referring to these people from Ljubija, this group of people

23 who were not interrogated at Keraterm. And in fact, it was the

24 explanation given. The day before, another list was made, including 115

25 names, and the next day we were supposed to be returned to Ljubija for

Page 1963

1 interrogation. Because we were supposed to be returned to Ljubija for

2 interrogation, two men from Prijedor managed to get their names on that

3 list and left with us for Omarska, and then another three men from

4 Kozarac, I believe. They had been caught somewhere on Mount Kozara and

5 they were in Stara Gradiska prison, and together with us, they left for

6 Omarska.

7 Q. Who told you that you were supposed to be returned to Ljubija?

8 A. I think -- I can't now -- I think it was one of those shift

9 leaders, somebody with a higher rank. I wasn't present when this was

10 announced. In any case, it was the same man, Anusic Nono, who made the

11 list. Who instructed him to do it, I don't know.

12 Q. Now, for how long did you remain at the Omarska camp?

13 A. I stayed in Omarska until the 6th of August, until the closure of

14 the camp. When the people were divided, more than a half went to Manjaca,

15 others went to Trnopolje, and less than 200 people were left at Omarska.

16 So I left on the 6th of August for Trnopolje.

17 Q. How were the prisoners treated in the Omarska camp?

18 A. In a beastly manner. No rules applied whatsoever. There was no

19 human dignity at all. They killed us. They did whatever they pleased.

20 Q. Did anything in particular happen to you while you were in

21 Omarska?

22 A. Well, daily beatings were so regular that they didn't even

23 represent anything special any more. I was once beaten up so badly, I

24 spend the next four days in a coma. I was thrown out onto a heap of

25 corpses, and I was found there by one of my comrades who brought me back

Page 1964

1 to the world of the living.

2 Q. Are you able to continue?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who was it that was doing -- that beat you?

5 A. There were many, many of them. That night, the worst night I had

6 there, the one who started was young Kvocka, and then another few men

7 joined him, then another few, and finally there were eight of them beating

8 me.

9 Q. And this person Kvocka you're referring to, what position in the

10 camp at Omarska did he occupy?

11 A. He was an ordinary guard. As far as I heard, he was a brother of

12 one of the guard's commanders, Miroslav Kvocka.

13 Q. In general in Omarska, did the guards participate in beatings?

14 A. That was done on a daily basis, any time of day or night.

15 Q. What about -- were there shift commanders in Omarska camp from

16 what you could observe?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did any of those persons participate in beatings of prisoners?

19 A. From what I knew, the shift leaders were Mladen Radic, called

20 Krkan; a person called Ckalja; and Kvocka. I only know that Kvocka also

21 was involved in killings, and I did not see the other two beating anyone

22 in front of us.

23 Q. And what position did he occupy in the camp?

24 A. Who?

25 Q. This person Kvocka.

Page 1965

1 A. Kvocka. Kvocka was one of the leaders of the guard. He could

2 also be seen with lists from which he would read out names of people, and

3 he take people away and these people would not come back.

4 Q. Now, at that time, Mr. Tomic, were you aware of who the president

5 of the Banja Luka municipality was?

6 A. From television. I knew of him from the media. I think his name

7 was Radic. Radic, yes.

8 Q. Did you ever see that person at Keraterm -- at Omarska camp? And

9 if so, in what circumstances?

10 A. In the middle of July -- at that time I was on the pista, the

11 tarmac. And one day we were being prepared to sing songs because a

12 delegation was to come from Banja Luka, and we were to welcome them with

13 song and sort of in a dignified way. And so we were practising singing

14 songs so that the next day when this delegation came in on helicopter, we

15 sang Serb nationalist songs with our arms -- hands raised in a

16 three-finger salute.

17 Q. And what does that salute signify, to your knowledge?

18 A. It was -- it's always been the Serbian salute.

19 Q. Thank you. How many members of this delegation were there?

20 A. I don't know, six, seven, up to ten. They reviewed us and then

21 they toured the camp. They went to certain buildings. Then they went to

22 the administration building, and they spent about half an hour there,

23 perhaps longer.

24 Q. What do you mean by "they reviewed us"?

25 A. They did not review us. They toured the rooms where we were,

Page 1966

1 rooms where there were other prisoners who were detained, of course.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Tomic, just before the camp closed, was there an occasion

3 when some prisoners from Keraterm arrived?

4 A. Perhaps a day or two before I left Omarska, two buses arrived from

5 Keraterm -- from Keraterm. That was two busloads. And among these

6 people, I found Anto Gavranovic a colleague from Prijedor, and he told me

7 that they were not interrogated there and they had been sent to Omarska to

8 be interrogated. They also put them in various rooms, and then, late in

9 the evening, they started collecting them again. They were reading their

10 names off certain lists because allegedly they were going to go to be

11 exchanged. And so this friend of mine also left. And no one knows what

12 happened to them afterwards. In any event, they were brought in that day,

13 and that same night they were taken out of Omarska.

14 Q. Do you know what became of them when they left Omarska?

15 A. Later on, I met my colleague's brothers, and they asked me what

16 happened -- what happened to him. And later on, I read in a Bosnian and

17 Croatian newspapers, the media, that they were looking for him. In other

18 words, they were -- members of those families were asking for their own.

19 His name was appearing in the media. His brothers were looking for him.

20 I don't know what happened. I did not know anyone else among those men,

21 but I know that this person specifically has been sought, and he was never

22 found. The last time I had any contact with his brothers was about three

23 years ago.

24 Q. Mr. Tomic, were there any policemen from Ljubija in Omarska camp

25 while you were there?

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Page 1968

1 A. You mean as inmates or --

2 Q. As inmates, thank you.

3 A. Yes. There was a policeman who, after the takeover of power by

4 Serbs, stayed on on duty as a policeman, but then he ended up in the camp,

5 first at Keraterm and then we were together in Omarska, and his name was

6 Ismet Taras.

7 Q. What if anything happened to him while he was in Omarska?

8 A. One night -- he was with me together on the tarmac area, and we

9 were going to the restaurant to sleep at night. And one evening, this man

10 Milan Anusic, another inmate, came. He called his name out several times,

11 saying that Krkan wanted him. He did not respond. He was close to me,

12 and he said something in a sense that he was finished. And only after two

13 or three attempts on the part of Anusic to bring him out, Krkan appeared,

14 and then he got up and left. And that was the last time that I saw him.

15 Q. Now, you referred earlier to killings that would take place in

16 Omarska. What would become of the bodies of the persons who were killed?

17 A. It depended on where they were killed. If they were killed in

18 front of an area -- the wash area, that was a car wash area, that's where

19 killings were taking place. Or they were dumped around the "white house"

20 and the next -- the following day, in the morning, they would be loaded on

21 a pickup truck and taken away. And every day, there were 10, 15 or more

22 bodies.

23 Q. And on the day that this delegation visited Omarska camp, were

24 there any bodies in the vicinity that was visited by the delegation, to

25 your knowledge?

Page 1969

1 A. The bodies were usually taken -- driven away in the morning, and

2 there was a driver who would take them away. There was a man called Kovac

3 who used to work for the mining company. I don't believe that the bodies

4 were still around the "white house" when the delegation arrived.

5 MS. BALY: Would Your Honours just pardon me for a moment.

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 Yes. Thank you. Those are my questions.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

9 MR. GREAVES: I wonder whether the usher could just push the ELMO

10 back, a little bit further back because my view of the witness is slightly

11 obscured, please.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

14 Q. Mr. Tomic, please let me know if you want to stop at any time. I

15 notice you became slightly overcome at one point, but just let me know if

16 you want to stop, won't you, please? Thank you very much.

17 Mr. Tomic, very briefly, after you had been in the various camps,

18 did you at any stage serve in the HVO or the Croatian forces?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The answer has come out as "yes," but I think it may have been

21 "no," in fact. Can we --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. The answer was inaudible. The

23 interpreter read off the lips. If you can repeat the question.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you give us the answer to the question,

25 Mr. Tomic?

Page 1970

1 A. Will you please repeat the question?

2 MR. GREAVES:

3 Q. Yes. I think you may need to come a little closer to the

4 microphones, because you speak quietly and it's not picking you up, Mr.

5 Tomic. Thank you very much.

6 The question was this: After your stay in the various camps did

7 you serve at any stage in the HVO or the Croatian military forces?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Thank you. The period at the end of 1991/1992, it's right, isn't

10 it - and I think you've told us this - that people started to refuse to

11 answer their call-ups for military service? Was one of the consequences

12 of that that the JNA effectively became denuded of people of Croatian or

13 Muslim ethnicity?

14 A. It is not correct. There were still both Muslims and Croats in

15 JNA.

16 Q. As time went on, did those who had answered their call-ups, did

17 those people also begin to stop taking part in the Serb military forces or

18 did the JNA remain a mixed force?

19 A. There were still Muslims and Croats in the JNA.

20 Q. And was that also true of the police who operated both in Prijedor

21 and more particularly in Ljubija, that they remained a mixed force for

22 quite a long time after the takeover?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did that remain the position until you were detained?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1971

1 Q. And if you know the answer to this, help us, please: Did it

2 remain the position for sometime after your detection that the police

3 remained a mixed force?

4 A. I can answer that question. I have mentioned already that the

5 police commander in Ljubija throughout that period was a Croat. His name

6 was Branko Bjekic. He was the commander of the Ljubija police until the

7 end of July, and in late July he, too, was then brought to Omarska as an

8 inmate, and that was the end of the mixed police, as far as I know in

9 respect of Ljubija. After he -- after he had rounded up all men in

10 Ljubija, then he, too, ended up in Ljubija.

11 Q. Thank you. As far as your own personal employment was concerned,

12 Mr. Tomic, it's right that your work continued until May 1992, but after

13 that, work dried up because the iron ore mine where you were working

14 lacked orders or lacked work to do; is that correct?

15 A. These are economic matters. I don't know if there were orders. I

16 don't know that. But be that as it may, the ore was not leaving the mine,

17 so there was no need for us to come to work.

18 Q. Mr. Tomic, just briefly, please, concerning this: Is it right

19 that there came a time when the Territorial Defence, the TO, took up

20 regular guard duties in Ljubija?

21 A. I don't understand. What is the "regular" guards?

22 Q. I'm sorry. I perhaps didn't phrase that terribly well. Did the

23 TO take up guard duties in Ljubija at some stage before your arrest?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And was that on a daily and nightly basis that the TO was

Page 1972

1 patrolling?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. At that time, was the TO still a mixed military unit in terms of

4 ethnicity or had it become factionalised, as it were?

5 A. No. They were still mixed. The only problem was that they did

6 not have weapons.

7 Q. When you say they didn't have weapons, are you talking about all

8 forms of weapons or didn't have heavy weapons?

9 A. They only had light weapons, the TO, but they had nothing.

10 MR. GREAVES: I was going to break in and say that might be a

11 convenient moment.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, this would be a convenient time.

13 Mr. Tomic, we're going to take a break until ten minutes after

14 4.00, and during the break, you're not to discuss your evidence with

15 anybody, including the members of the Prosecution team.

16 The interpreter Mr. Pierre Rouve will you please attend on the

17 Chamber in my room.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, we will stop at about five minutes

21 to 5.00 because there is a matter I have to raise with the Prosecutor.

22 MR. GREAVES: I'm anticipating finishing well before then.

23 Q. Mr. Tomic, you'll need your microphones on and you'll need to come

24 a bit closer, please. Well done. If I can just briefly ask you one or

25 two questions about the -- your arrest, Mr. Tomic? If you can confirm

Page 1973

1 this, a total of, I think, 13 of you were arrested at the same time and

2 taken to Keraterm at the same time, all men of military age, in other

3 words, between 16 and 60? Would that be correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. You arrived in the early hours of the 14th of June at Keraterm.

6 Can you just tell us the time of your arrival, please?

7 A. It could have been 5.30.

8 Q. And having arrived there and entered the premises, you were taken

9 almost immediately, I think, to the main building; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'd like to turn now, please, and ask you about somebody called

12 Zivko Knezevic, who had, I think, the nickname Ziza. Is that a name with

13 which you're familiar, Mr. Tomic?

14 A. Ziza?

15 Q. Ziza, I'm sorry, I'm being reminded to brush up on my

16 pronunciation here on the right. Is that a name with which you're

17 familiar, Mr. Tomic?

18 A. Yes. It's a name I heard often at the camp.

19 Q. And is this correct, that other inmates told you that that

20 individual held high rank?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And is it also correct that you were told by others at the camp

23 that that individual was superior to the shift commanders?

24 A. I wasn't told anything specific as to what his duties were and

25 what kind of assignments he gave, but in any case, he was occupying a high

Page 1974

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Page 1975

1 position, at the camp, I mean.

2 Q. Did -- although you heard of him, did you know what this man

3 looked like?

4 A. I'm not aware of that.

5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tomic, the people who were employed as guards at

6 Keraterm, is this right, that you observed that they wore a variety of

7 different uniforms?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Some of which appeared to be police uniforms and others of which

10 appeared to be military uniforms; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I'd like now just briefly to ask you about one or two individual

13 incidents, if I may, please. The man called Singaporac, he had a

14 nickname, Snajperista. Do you know how he acquired that nickname?

15 A. Allegedly, he got both of his nicknames from Duca but for what

16 reason, I don't know.

17 Q. And the incident involving this individual, was that on the first

18 afternoon that you were at Keraterm?

19 A. I think it was in the morning.

20 Q. But in any event, very soon after you arrived at Keraterm?

21 A. Yes, on that day.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tomic. Duca Knezevic, was it your observation that

23 he was not a guard at the camp but someone who came in from outside?

24 A. He had arrived in a Mercedes into the compound together with

25 another soldier, and he would come to the camp only occasionally.

Page 1976

1 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you now, please, about a gentleman called

2 Stipo Susic, who I believe was a Catholic priest interned at Keraterm? Do

3 you recall him? Or Sosic.

4 A. Sosic.

5 Q. Sosic. Thank you.

6 A. Stipo Sosic arrived on the same day as I did, but sometime during

7 that day of the 14th of June, I remember we had a pack of cigarettes

8 between us. We spent the night together in room number 4, and on the next

9 day he was transferred to Omarska.

10 Q. And was he of Croat ethnicity as well?

11 A. He was a Catholic priest. He worked in Ljubija.

12 Q. And do you know if he survived his stay at Keraterm and Omarska?

13 A. I don't know. He survived Keraterm, Omarska, Manjaca.

14 Q. Were there any other gentlemen in Keraterm who were either priests

15 or Muslim Imams, hajjis that you knew of?

16 A. I heard there had been another seven Muslim religious persons. I

17 hadn't met them, but I heard they had been at that camp.

18 Q. The two policemen, Drago Tokmadzic and Esad Islamovic,

19 respectively a Croat and a Muslim by ethnicity, you actually saw those two

20 individuals bringing prisoners to Keraterm; is that correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. On several occasions?

23 A. Several times.

24 Q. And that continued pretty well up until the time they themselves

25 were detained; is that correct?

Page 1977

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters request, would the witness speak

2 up, please.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tomic, the interpreters are asking that you

4 speak up, speak more clearly, more loudly. Perhaps you should come closer

5 to the microphone. Thank you.

6 MR. GREAVES:

7 Q. I know it's not easy if you have a quiet voice, Mr. Tomic, but

8 you'll have to just remember, if you can, please, to keep your voice up.

9 You also spoke of a Muslim policeman who was at Omarska. Did you

10 ever see that individual bringing prisoners to either of the two camps?

11 A. No, he didn't bring anyone to the camp.

12 Q. Do you know if he continued with his duties as a policeman up

13 until the time that he was detained? Did you discover that?

14 A. I don't know exactly. It's true that he performed his duties

15 until his arrest. I still saw him in Ljubija after the takeover of power

16 by Serbs. I know he was still working. I used to see him. He was

17 wearing his uniform.

18 Q. Mr. Tomic, you've told us about one Serbian person who was at

19 Keraterm as a detainee, Jovan Radocaj. Were you aware of any other

20 persons of Serb ethnicity who were being held at Keraterm?

21 A. I mentioned another one who was a half Serb. His father was a

22 Serb and his mother was Croatian. He was with me at the camp.

23 Q. Can you recall what his name was, please?

24 A. I can.

25 Q. And would you be so kind as to tell us what it was, please?

Page 1978

1 A. Zelimir Komosar.

2 Q. Whilst you were at Keraterm, did you at any stage become aware

3 that one of the detainees there was a military aviation pilot called

4 Bajazit Jakupovic?

5 A. I didn't know him by name. I only knew that he was a pilot, and

6 he was also in room number 2.

7 Q. And did there come a time when that person eventually appeared to

8 be suffering from mental problems of some sort whilst you were at

9 Keraterm?

10 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Did you see that person again at Omarska?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Finally this, Mr. Tomic, please: You departed for Omarska on the

14 6th of -- I'm sorry. Some prisoners came from Keraterm to Omarska on the

15 6th of August. Did they come by bus, as far as you know?

16 A. Could you please repeat this question?

17 Q. Yes. Some detainees from Keraterm arrived at Omarska around the

18 6th of August. Did they arrive by bus, as far as you know?

19 A. I think it was the 5th of August. They arrived in buses.

20 Q. And were you able to assess the numbers of detainees arriving in

21 that way?

22 A. I talked with this one man. He told me there were 180 of them.

23 Q. And how long did they remain at Omarska before they were taken

24 away again?

25 A. Only that day. During the night, they were called out again and

Page 1979

1 taken away.

2 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour just give me a moment, please?

3 Yes. I have no further questions. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

5 Mr. Rodic?

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Allow me to start, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please go ahead.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Tomic. I am lawyer Goran Rodic from

11 Podgorica. I wish to tell you straight away that I regret very much all

12 that you have gone through, but you must understand that we too must do

13 our job. You have said during your examination-in-chief that you opted in

14 that period of 1991, 1992, when the elections were, for the reformist

15 party which was then led, if I'm correct, by Ante Markovic; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Everyone knows more or less that the policy of that party was

19 based on an economic programme for the entire Yugoslavia; is that

20 correct? Will you please answer audibly so that it can be reflected in

21 the transcript?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In your opinion, could you please tell me, was that party very

24 different in many respects from the nationalist parties which had the

25 upper hand after all in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 1980

1 A. The difference was enormous.

2 Q. Also, in your view, and bearing in mind all that has happened,

3 could you please explain to the Honourable Court whether that difference

4 was enormous in a positive or a negative sense compared to the nationalist

5 parties?

6 A. Certainly in a positive sense, because the entire plan and the

7 programme of that party was based on an economic programme, without much

8 political influence, whereas nationalist parties were responsible for

9 where we are today.

10 Q. Precisely. That's why I asked you this question. Since I'm aware

11 that at the time there was a huge rally in support of Ante Markovic,

12 president of that party, and did you attend that rally?

13 A. Yes, it's true that the rally took place.

14 Q. And was it widely attended?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would it be fair to say that the slogan of that rally was

17 co-existence of all the people in Yugoslavia?

18 A. I wasn't there.

19 Q. As you have just said, and you assessed that it was the politics

20 of those other parties which led us to the situation today, I remember

21 that during your examination-in-chief, you stated your view on the issue

22 of removal of people who were taken to Keraterm and Omarska. Can you tell

23 us, in your view, who were the people who decided that these things were

24 going to be done?

25 A. Specifically, I can say that from my home town, Ljubija, those

Page 1981

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Page 1982

1 were the people who decided who would go to the camps, and they were from

2 the leadership of the SDS, and leaders of the Crisis Staff, as they called

3 themselves, in Ljubija. So the people in power in Ljubija at the time.

4 Q. Do you know anything about other areas in that region, who the

5 people were who made those decisions?

6 A. Probably.

7 Q. Again, related to this, and I'm only asking for your opinion, the

8 people who are sitting behind me now, and about whom this trial is, would

9 you tell us, in your view, did they have any influence on the

10 establishment and creation of the camps of Omarska and Keraterm? Did they

11 have that sort of power?

12 A. I don't know because I hadn't known those people before. I know

13 them only from the camps. Whether they had influence, I don't know, but

14 they did have influence at the camp, inside the camp.

15 Q. All right. They were the security there, but I was talking about

16 the creation and incarceration of people in those camps.

17 A. I don't know whether they had any other kind of influence.

18 Q. Please tell me, since you also mentioned the curfew imposed after

19 the takeover of power in Prijedor, you spoke about the peaceful walks, as

20 you refer to them. Since you took those walks even after the curfew, did

21 you suffer any consequences?

22 A. No.

23 Q. So could we note that you were not in any physical danger as a

24 result of this?

25 A. No.

Page 1983

1 Q. You also said that until the 24th of May, you worked in the iron

2 ore mine, and you said this was your last working day. Could you tell me,

3 when you were going to work, did you take the bus every day?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This road from your home to work, was it clear, the road that this

6 bus took?

7 THE INTERPRETER: No audible answer from the witness.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tomic, we didn't hear the answer to that

9 question.

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Does that mean that until that day, there were no roadblocks on

14 the road?

15 A. Never.

16 Q. When you were talking about the TO, that is, the Territorial

17 Defence, were you referring to the Territorial Defence unit for the

18 Ljubija area?

19 A. Yes, the local TO.

20 Q. You also said that the Territorial Defence was stationed in the

21 school building in Ljubija. Were all the members of that unit stationed

22 at the school or was it just the command of that unit?

23 A. All of them were locals from Ljubija, and they came there only

24 when their shift was on duty, when they had particular assignments. That

25 was it as far as the TO was concerned. That was all they did at that

Page 1984

1 building. Beforehand, they used to have weapons which they returned, I

2 mean the weapons they had been issued with, but in any case, they were

3 left without any weapons.

4 Q. Can you please tell me, those members of the TO, did they come to

5 that school in their uniforms, without any weapons?

6 A. Wearing their uniforms, without weapons.

7 Q. Could you please describe what they were doing, what their

8 assignment was?

9 A. I don't know what their assignment was. At any rate, they had

10 their wartime assignment, and it was such that they served in the TO or in

11 the reserve units of the army or the reserve units of the police. That's

12 where they were assigned as wartime assignments, where they were supposed

13 to come.

14 Q. In fact, we could call it mobilisation of the reserve units of the

15 TO, et cetera.

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. You also said that you, too, put on your uniform and set out to go

18 there.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What kind of uniform did you have?

21 A. I had a uniform from the reserve forces of the army.

22 Q. Since you stated that in 1981 you served your regular military

23 service in Belgrade, can you please tell me what was your branch of

24 service? What is the kind of training that you had?

25 A. Infantry.

Page 1985

1 Q. And after you completed your military service, you were

2 transferred to the reserve force. Which unit? Which branch?

3 A. The reserve force of the infantry. Right now --

4 Q. It doesn't matter if you don't remember.

5 A. I can't really recall now the place.

6 Q. It doesn't matter. The person about whom you said that he headed

7 the Crisis Staff in Ljubija, Slobodan Taranjac --

8 A. Slobodan Taranjac.

9 Q. Could you tell me, what he did before that situation in terms of

10 occupation?

11 A. He worked at the Tomasica mine as a foreman.

12 Q. Did that man have a university degree or just secondary

13 education?

14 A. He had secondary education and perhaps completed some courses.

15 Q. Did you know about him even before those events in your hometown?

16 A. Do you mean whether I knew him? Yes. He was a neighbour.

17 Q. After all these things began to happen in the area of Prijedor,

18 did he take a much more visible position than before?

19 A. How do you mean?

20 Q. Did he take up a more prominent position in society?

21 A. Among Serbs, certainly.

22 Q. Again in relation to him, were you ever told why you were being

23 taken to Keraterm? Were you ever given a reason?

24 A. Nobody ever told me. And even at the interrogation at Omarska, I

25 was asked why I was at the camp. The inspector asked me.

Page 1986

1 Q. You also mentioned Milan Curguz, also known as Krivi.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell me, was he an active-duty policeman in Ljubija?

4 A. No. He, too, was a reserve policeman before the war.

5 Q. So it's a member of the reserve police force.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. You also mentioned seeing Curguz on several occasions when he

8 brought some people to Keraterm.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. From the Ljubija area?

11 A. Yes, from Ljubija.

12 Q. Did he do that on his own initiative or was it on somebody's

13 orders that he escorted these people, if you know that?

14 A. I don't believe it was his own initiative. I assume it was on

15 somebody's orders.

16 Q. Will you please tell me, when you arrived at Keraterm, you said

17 you first went to Room number 2?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Please tell me if you know the approximate number of people at

20 that time in Room number 2?

21 A. Close to 400 people.

22 Q. Can you tell me, where did you settle in when you arrived?

23 Roughly.

24 A. Right at the entrance to Room number 2.

25 Q. You mentioned Milan Anusic.

Page 1987

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Saying that he kept a list of prisoners who were inside Room

3 number 2?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was that list on him?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know, was anybody asked to volunteer to make a list of

8 people in that room?

9 A. I don't know that.

10 Q. And was there any deadline for making this list?

11 A. Anusic was given this notebook to make a list of all the people

12 inside the room.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, as I indicated, we would stop at five

14 minutes to 5.00 today.

15 Mr. Tomic, we are now going to take the adjournment until 9.30

16 tomorrow morning. During the break, you're reminded that you are not to

17 discuss your evidence with anybody, including the members of the

18 Prosecution team. Would you escort the witness out?

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, you remember that we had discussed

21 the ways in which the translator, Mr. Pierre Rouve, would be assisting the

22 Chamber. And one of the ways would be to have him translate before the

23 witness summaries -- to translate into French the witness summaries. We

24 understand that it would be virtually impossible for him to do that in a

25 timely manner so that it would be ready for court, because the witness

Page 1988

1 summaries are necessarily prepared rather late in time. But I was given

2 to understand that a practical arrangement had been worked out whereby the

3 Prosecutor would make available to him a draft, which, I understand, the

4 OTP would have already - it's a draft of the summary - on the

5 understanding, of course, that the summary in its final analysis would

6 have adaptations to that draft. But that draft would be nonetheless

7 helpful to the Chamber if we could have that translated. And if that's

8 something the OTP already has, then that could be made available to the

9 translator well in advance of the court proceedings and at a time that

10 would be consistent with the professional requirements.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may respond, Your Honour. The request for the

12 summaries came a little bit late in the day, in the sense that we had

13 prepared certainly our own method of examining witnesses and had

14 statements, et cetera, but the actual summaries are being done evenings

15 and weekends by the prosecutors as we go along. And we are trying to --

16 we are trying to get them in a timely manner and then use them for

17 proofing sessions. I can tell you that some of them are ready and have

18 been prepared in advance, but they have not all been prepared. And we

19 certainly can provide those which have been prepared, almost immediately,

20 but I cannot say that they have all been prepared for the balance of the

21 witnesses. That's what we are using our evenings and weekends to do.

22 So in so far as we can provide what we have, we will do that

23 immediately, and as they are done we will provide a copy at your request,

24 with the understanding that they are subject to amendment after the

25 proofing session, because sometimes -- and we would then source them as we

Page 1989

1 do, as you can see, that some paragraphs have "proofing session" behind

2 them, meaning that there is additional information which was derived from

3 that or amendments made.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That was precisely my understanding. And

5 if that could be done, that would be very helpful to the Chamber. So

6 would you see that that is done?

7 MR. RYNEVELD: We will attend to that immediately, Your Honour.

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, if I may suggest something, because

9 there is a proffer of the testimony that we have received almost on all

10 the witnesses, which is basically the whole summary, just it's not being

11 segmented in various paragraphs, and for those that those summaries are

12 not being made, perhaps those proffers of testimony, it could be given and

13 translated, if you have most of them. But I have received almost on all

14 witnesses. So that could be also helpful, because you do have it on the

15 file already.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that the same thing we are talking about,

18 Mr. Ryneveld?

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Not at all, Your Honour. I might say that in our

20 attempt to provide full and thorough disclosure - and I don't think my

21 friends will complain about our disclosure - we have provided them with

22 documents that had been prepared a long time ago, even before the

23 selection of the new witness list when Mr. Sikirica was added and we had

24 to change the indictment. Needless to say, we have provided our friends

25 with a document which was known as a proffer that was made perhaps years

Page 1990

1 ago, but that is not the same as the witness summary. They are two

2 totally different things. This is something that may not even amount to a

3 statement. It may be internal and -- may be internal work product, in the

4 sense that it may be an investigator's distillation of three or four

5 statements that a witness may have made, as a suggestion as to what the

6 witness might testify to down the road.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld. We will adhere to the

8 procedure that we had worked out.

9 Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic.

10 We will adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry, did Your Honour mean 9.30 or 9.00?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: It will be 9.30.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Thank you very much.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

15 5.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday the 6th day

16 of April, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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