1 Monday, 9 April 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, your witness.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution takes the position

8 that this witness has previously been granted protective measures,

9 including facial distortion, based on the 27 February 2001 order of the

10 Trial Chamber.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: So be it, Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: I have a document with identifying information about

13 the witness. I'd ask the usher to show one copy of that to the witness

14 and distribute the remaining copies, please.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 WITNESS: WITNESS I

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

23 Q. Witness, you can have a seat. And for the record, I believe this

24 is Witness I, if I'm not mistaken.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's right.

1 MR. MUNDIS:

2 Q. Witness, if you could please take a look at the document that's

3 been provided to you and verify that your name and date of birth are

4 correctly stated on that document.

5 A. Yes, they are.

6 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that this document be marked as the next

7 exhibit in order, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit number 30.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, for the first few questions, I'd ask

10 that we go into closed session, please.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

12 [Private session]

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5 [Open session]

6 MR. MUNDIS:

7 Q. Witness, can you please briefly describe for the Court the

8 deterioration of relations between the Bosniak Muslims and the Serbs in

9 opstina Prijedor in the late 1980s, early 1990s?

10 A. After the breakdown of the communist party and the central

11 committee, new parties were established, the democratic parties, which in

12 each own territories conducted their activities and in their own republic

13 of the then Yugoslavia, then the elections came and the power was shared

14 proportionately to the vote that was won.

15 In Bosnia we had three strong parties, the SDA, HDZ and SDS and

16 this is how it was supposed to stay, the power to be shared and the

17 situation to be stabilised but some republics demanded secession and

18 independence. Bosnia did so, and opted for a prosperous sovereign state

19 and at that point, the tensions developed.

20 Q. Witness, are you familiar with some Bosnian Muslims and some

21 Bosnian Croats who, in fact, did go to the war in Croatia?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And upon their return to Bosnia following that war, what happened

24 to their weapons?

25 A. The reservists who were ethnic Croats and Bosniaks who came back

1 from Croatia had their weapons taken away from them whereas the ethnic

2 Serbs who came back were allowed to take their weapons home with them.

3 Q. Witness, are you familiar with a plebescite that occurred in

4 Bosnia in February 1992 and, if so, can you please describe that for the

5 Court?

6 A. Yes. The SDS held a plebescite of the Serb people, and only Serbs

7 could participate in it. The question asked was whether they wanted to

8 stay within Yugoslavia. This is how it was formulated so there was no

9 other options, only the question that was asked. And in this plebescite,

10 it was decided, apparently, that they would live in one state, that they

11 would establish a state which would be part -- which would then be

12 together with Serbian Montenegro.

13 Q. Following this plebescite, was there a further referendum that was

14 held in Bosnia?

15 A. Yes, there was a referendum of the citizens of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina which was public, open to all citizens of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina for the independence and separate Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 Q. And do you recall what the results of that referendum were?

19 A. The result of the referendum was positive. Many states had

20 already recognised Bosnia and Herzegovina on the basis of this

21 referendum. I don't know what else to say.

22 Q. Did any of the ethnic groups in Bosnia boycott the election or the

23 referendum?

24 A. Yes. The Serb side boycotted the referendum. They did not want

25 to come out to vote in the referendum.

1 Q. Witness, shortly after the referendum, did there come a time when

2 the SDS took over power in Prijedor?

3 A. Yes. One day - it was in April, late March, early April - the

4 Serb authorities, that is, the SDS party, ordered the ethnic Serb

5 policemen to disarm their own fellow policemen who were of Croat or

6 Bosniak ethnic background and send them home, and this is how the power

7 was taken over in Prijedor municipality.

8 Q. Can you describe -- at this approximate time, can you describe any

9 changes that occurred to the media in Prijedor?

10 A. The Kozarski Vjesnik was no longer Kozarski Vjesnik but Srpski

11 Kozarski Vjesnik. The Radio Prijedor became the Radio Serb Prijedor. So

12 they had their media, and we had no newspapers or any other media outlets.

13 Q. At that time were you able to receive radio and television

14 broadcasts from Zagreb or Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes. For another period of time, we were able to get Sarajevo

16 broadcasts and a few people could also get the Zagreb broadcasts, but then

17 the television relay was -- on Mount Kozara was taken over, and from that

18 day on, we were no longer able to view anything else but the programming

19 from Belgrade.

20 Q. Do you recall the approximate time period when that occurred, when

21 you were only able to get broadcasts from Belgrade?

22 A. I don't recall the date.

23 Q. Witness, once the police had been taken over by the Serbs, did you

24 notice any visible changes in the uniforms?

25 A. Yes. They automatically changed the insignia on their uniforms.

1 They started wearing the tricolour, red, quite, and blue. No five-pointed

2 star but the four-S symbol.

3 Q. At approximately the same time, were the flags changed over all

4 government buildings?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, Witness, prior to the takeover, would it be fair to say that

7 you frequently went into the city of Prijedor?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What about after the takeover? Did you still continue to go into

10 the city of Prijedor?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Why not?

13 A. From my place to downtown Prijedor, there were three or four

14 checkpoints which one had to pass and show identity cards, some kind of

15 identification document. One would be automatically stopped or turned

16 back. So we didn't even want to try.

17 Q. Witness, did people in your village possess hunting weapons of any

18 kind prior to the war?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did anything happen to those weapons once the war started in

21 Prijedor?

22 A. The hunting weapons and personal weapons which some citizens

23 possessed had to be turned in by 12.00 - this was an ultimatum - and if

24 not, they said that they would shell us.

25 Q. Witness, did there come a time when there was a specific ultimatum

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1 directed at your village of Donja Ljubija?

2 A. Yes. That was the ultimatum, to surrender weapons until 12.00 and

3 to sign an oath of loyalty to the Serb republic.

4 Q. Do you recall the approximate date when that ultimatum was

5 issued?

6 A. That would have been around 24 -- between 24 to 28th of May. I'm

7 not certain of the date.

8 Q. As a part of this ultimatum, were the villagers in Donja Ljubija

9 asked to turn anyone over to the Serb authorities?

10 A. They did not demand in Donja Ljubija, but in other villages, the

11 villages that were before my village, they demanded that Aziz Aliskovic be

12 surrendered, which they didn't do, and they started shelling that area

13 Hambarine, Rizvanovici, Biscani, Rakovica.

14 Q. Witness, were you required to make any outward demonstrations of

15 loyalty to the Serbs?

16 A. Yes. The inhabitants of my village were supposed to hoist white

17 flags outside of their homes, and the police station in Ljubija, that is,

18 its personnel had to sign an oath of loyalty to the Serb authorities and

19 the Serb republic.

20 Q. Witness, you mentioned a person by the name of Aziz Aliskovic.

21 Did you know who that person was?

22 A. Yes. I knew him before the war. That was a policeman who worked

23 in Ljubija for many years. For a period he also worked in Prijedor. I

24 knew him not quite as a friend but as a good acquaintance.

25 Q. What was his ethnicity?

1 A. He was a Bosniak Muslim.

2 Q. Now, Witness, did there then come a time when your village, Donja

3 Ljubija, was taken over by the Serbs?

4 A. Yes. The police station in Gornja Ljubija was taken over, and a

5 Serb police was established. The ultimatum that they had issued us was

6 implemented. We turned in the weapons, and so this was the situation that

7 took place for a period of time.

8 Q. Was there any kind of fighting or armed conflict in the village?

9 A. No, not in Ljubija. There was no fighting in Ljubija. There was

10 no resistance. Not a single shot was fired from our side, that is, the

11 side of the Croats and Bosniaks. So for a while, there was a period of

12 calm, of a lull.

13 Q. Did there come a time when Serb troops entered the village?

14 A. Yes. I don't recall the exact date, but one morning, from the

15 direction of Brdo, Hegici, and Bradina, a lot of soldiers, a lot of troops

16 poured in with -- wearing various uniforms, some bandannas, leather gloves

17 and all kinds of paraphernalia. They started rounding up men and women.

18 They started pulling jewellery off of women. They were asking for money.

19 They were asking for valuables. And then at the same time from the

20 direction of Ljeskari, a tank arrived accompanied by a JNA unit, that is

21 the newly reconfigured JNA.

22 Q. Witness, was there a mosque in your village prior to the war?

23 A. Yes. There was a mosque and an orthodox church.

24 Q. Did anything happen to the mosque once the Serbs arrived?

25 A. Yes, they entered the mosque. They set the rugs on fire. They

1 found a religious flag which they brought out. They put it on the tank.

2 They drove about with that flag on top of the tank. They entered the SDA

3 offices in Ljubija. They ransacked it. They smashed the office. They

4 found a picture of Josip Broz Tito. They hung it on a linden tree and

5 used it for target practice.

6 Q. Now, Witness, when the Serb troops -- immediately after the Serb

7 troops entered your village, were any of the villagers harmed or killed?

8 A. Yes. In the attack on the village, Smajo Ikanovic was killed.

9 About 500 men were taken to the stadium at Gornja Ljubija, that was half

10 of my village. That is the one to the railroad tracks on the side of the

11 Hegici, Hasanagici, and Gradina, that is how far this attack went.

12 Q. Witness, were you one of the men that was taken to the football

13 stadium?

14 A. No, I was lucky. I crossed the railroad tracks.

15 Q. And where did you go?

16 A. Well, the other half was driven by fear. Everybody was abandoning

17 their houses. Everybody had heard about men being taken to the stadium.

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]. We were about perhaps 70 men. We were hiding in woods

20 perhaps 100 metres away from my home.

21 We had abandoned our homes, our mothers, wives, all out of fear.

22 Q. Witness, were any of the men that were with you hiding in the

23 woods behind your house armed?

24 A. No. We had turned over our weapons about ten days previously.

25 Q. Do you know, Witness, or have you heard from others what happened

1 to the men that were taken to the football stadium?

2 A. Well, the men who were taken to the stadium were slapped, some of

3 them, interrogated, some of them. I don't know really. Sometime in the

4 afternoon towards the evening, they were released. Someone from the

5 police station of Ljubija reacted and let these men go home.

6 Q. Now, Witness, while you were -- when you fled into the hills,

7 where was your wife?

8 A. My wife, my mother, and my one-year-old child were at home.

9 Q. And your wife was pregnant at the time; is that correct?

10 A. My wife was pregnant before the attack on Hambarine. At that

11 time, she had already returned from the hospital.

12 Q. What happened to her at the hospital?

13 A. Before the attack on Hambarine, I have just said that [redacted]

14 [redacted]. And from the side

15 of that Serbian hamlet, there was fire from a machine-gun, from a light

16 machine-gun, and my wife was seven months pregnant at the time. Her water

17 broke. That was on the 21st of May. We called an ambulance, and she went

18 to Prijedor to the hospital.

19 Q. What happened to her at the hospital?

20 A. She stayed at the hospital for about seven days without getting

21 any medical assistance or care. They did absolutely nothing to help her

22 deliver as soon as possible. Seven days later, they put her in an

23 ambulance and drove her to Banja Luka and at that moment, Kozarac had

24 already been set on fire and destroyed, and she passed through the

25 destroyed Kozarac. She stayed for about 15 days in Banja Luka and gave

1 birth there.

2 The child was still alive when it was born. It cried. It was a

3 boy, but nothing was done for him. He was not put in an ICU, and it

4 died. We know nothing of its fate. We don't know whether it was buried

5 or not.

6 Q. Witness, now, immediately after the attack on your village, did

7 you then return from the hills to your house?

8 A. Yes. Immediately in the evening, we went back home. When we

9 heard that the men from the stadium had returned, we returned as well.

10 And from that day on, peace reigned for another ten days, and then the

11 Serbian police came. They went from house to house and started arresting

12 men and taking them to the camp.

13 Q. Did there come a time during this period, Witness, when you were

14 interrogated by the police?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you describe for the Court the conditions under which you were

17 interrogated and approximately how many times?

18 A. Well, in the period while my wife was in the hospital - and from

19 day one I didn't know where she was and what was happening to her - I got

20 a message that I had to report to the Ljubija police station. I

21 complied. I was interrogated up there by the then commander, Branko

22 Bjekic. I seem to remember that was his name. He was of Croatian

23 ethnicity. He was commander before the takeover, and on paper at least,

24 he remained commander even after the take-over.

25 Q. Witness, do you recall any of the other police officers who were

1 present at any time while you were being interrogated?

2 A. And the actual commander was actually Savo Pusac. I went to a

3 separate office to give my statement. The statement was taken by

4 policeman Daljevic, whose first name I don't know, and Mr. Drago

5 Tokmadzic.

6 Q. Witness, approximately how many times were you called in to the

7 police station during this period?

8 A. Well, four or five times, approximately. On four days I had to go

9 to the police station around 9.00 a.m., and they would release me around

10 4.00 or 5.00 p.m. to go home.

11 Q. Witness, were -- at this time were there Muslim police officers or

12 Muslim military officers present in your village or in the area?

13 A. There were Muslims who worked, and Croats as well, who still

14 worked, who were not disarmed, those who signed the act of loyalty.

15 Others were, by that time, sent to camps.

16 Q. Witness, did there come a time when you were arrested by the

17 police, and if so, do you recall the approximate date?

18 A. Yes. I was arrested and taken to the camp on the 23rd of June,

19 1992.

20 Q. Witness, where were you when you were arrested?

21 A. Those days, which were quiet, I had turned to my farming. Hay

22 needed to be gathered, sowing needed to be done. When I came back home, I

23 bought some hay, and I was taking care of my animals, making haystacks,

24 and around 9.00 or 10.00 or 11.00, policemen perhaps came with a TAM

25 vehicle, a covered truck carrying about two tonnes. They told me to get

1 dressed and come with them.

2 Q. Where did they take you?

3 A. They took us to the Ljubija police station.

4 Q. Did they say anything to you either while you were being

5 transported or while you were at the police station?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Witness, did you know a person by the name of Jovo Radocaj?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you see him when you arrived at the police station?

10 A. No -- yes. Sorry.

11 Q. What was Jovo Radocaj doing when you arrived at the police

12 station?

13 A. Jovo Radocaj was in the hallway hanging by his handcuffs on the

14 bannister, by his right hand.

15 Q. During the time that you were at the police station, did you see

16 anyone do anything to Jovo Radocaj?

17 A. At that moment, the newly appointed policeman Miso Grbic arrived,

18 who said, "You've been in this position, Jovo, since yesterday. Let's

19 change your position." And he hung him from the bannister by his left

20 arm, and he turned him in such a way that we couldn't see him any more.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, could the witness explain what he

22 means when he said that he was hung from the bannister by his left arm?

23 Does this mean that he was suspended in air?

24 MR. MUNDIS:

25 Q. Witness, can you describe for us how Jovo Radocaj was handcuffed

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1 to the stairwell when you first saw him?

2 A. Well, at the level of the sixth or the seventh step, and the

3 height is not an average man's height, yet he couldn't quite stand on the

4 floor. He could touch the floor if standing on tiptoe, but he was

5 suspended by his arm. He was stretched.

6 Q. Now, Witness, how did you know Jovo Radocaj from before the time

7 you saw him at the police station?

8 A. Yes. I knew him very well, ever since my youth, because he was an

9 apprentice blacksmith, and he worked as an apprentice for [redacted]

10 [redacted]. Later we worked

11 for the same company, in the same department of that company.

12 Q. What ethnicity was Jovo Radocaj?

13 A. A Serb.

14 Q. Witness, do you have any idea or any information as to why Jovo

15 Radocaj was in the police station?

16 A. Allegedly, and that's what we heard at the camp when we arrived

17 there, he was a member of the SDA party, which sounds incredible to me.

18 Q. The SDA party being the Bosniak political party; is that correct?

19 A. Yes. Most of them were Bosniaks. It was the Free Democratic

20 Party.

21 Q. Now, Witness, were you then taken from the police station in

22 Ljubija to the Keraterm camp?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you -- who was taken with you from the police station to

25 Keraterm?

1 A. In the van, we were about eight or nine men. Most of them were my

2 acquaintances from Donja Ljubija. There was an Albanian whom I didn't

3 know and there was Jovo Radocaj.

4 Q. Do you recall the date and the approximate time that you arrived

5 at Keraterm?

6 A. That was the 23rd of June, 1992, in the afternoon, sometime

7 between 4.00 and 6.00 p.m.

8 Q. Witness, can you describe for us what happened to the group of

9 people that you were with upon your arrival at Keraterm?

10 A. Savo Pusac, as the commander of the Ljubija police, was escorting

11 us. He handed some papers to the guards at the weigh hut at the gate of

12 the Keraterm camp. Then we got out of the van, lined up. And then Savo

13 Pusac said, "Here I brought you one Serb, Jovo."

14 Q. Did anything happen to Jovo at that time?

15 A. Yes. First, Mr. Kajin -- whether that is his last name or his

16 nickname, I don't know -- hit him on the head so hard that he fell to the

17 ground. Then another two or three guards joined him and kicked Jovo who

18 was lying on the ground by the weigh hut. That lasted for about five, ten

19 minutes, and then they showed Jovo to Room 1.

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My objection is to the

23 interpretation. The witness said that not that he was hit in the head.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are looking right now for the

25 translation.

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] And another thing, the witness said

2 after this, he sat on the ground not fell. He was actually given a rap or

3 a crack on the head. Perhaps the witness should clarify for us what a rap

4 or a crack on the head is.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, would you seek a clarification.

6 MR. MUNDIS: I will, indeed, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness, can you please demonstrate for the Court what you saw the

8 person you described as Mr. Kajin do to Jovo Radocaj?

9 A. I will try. It's not a rap like this. It's like this on the

10 forehead with a middle finger which, for a man 60 years old, exhausted,

11 who hadn't eaten for days, fell on the ground. He sat on the ground

12 which, in his case, was the same as falling.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.

14 MR. MUNDIS:

15 Q. So when you previously said hit or the word that you used, you

16 really meant flick him with your finger; is that correct?

17 A. Yes. This usage of the word "crack" in our language is diverse.

18 This is perhaps difficult to interpret into English, and this is why the

19 misunderstanding may have occurred.

20 Q. Witness, upon your arrival and after this incident with Jovo

21 Radocaj, where were you taken?

22 A. We were sent to Room 4.

23 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Court the conditions in Room 4

24 when you arrived there, please?

25 A. Room 4 is the last in that Keraterm camp. It was somehow divided

1 by a hallway in the middle. It was long. It went up to the middle of the

2 room after which the room was shaped like a horseshoe. I was in the

3 second part.

4 Q. Witness, do you recall approximately how high the ceiling was in

5 Room 4?

6 A. Well, approximately three, three and a half, maybe four metres.

7 Q. Approximately how many people were in Room 4 when you arrived

8 there?

9 A. There were approximately 450, maybe 500 people. I don't know

10 exactly.

11 Q. And what did you have to sleep on in Room 4?

12 A. Before our time, inmates were allowed to bring in wooden pallets

13 which they lined one next to another, and onto them they piled clothing

14 and that's where they slept.

15 Q. Witness, after you first arrived in Keraterm, how long was it

16 before you were given any food?

17 A. 24 hours.

18 Q. Can you describe for us the food that you did receive during the

19 time that you were at Keraterm, please?

20 A. On the 24th of June, we got fed for the first time around 3.00

21 p.m. Some vehicle carrying food arrived. The food was distributed in

22 front of Room 2. There was a sequence, a timetable for rooms to get

23 food. We got two tiny slices of bread and some sort of soup very watery.

24 Not really like soup, like salted water.

25 Q. Was this the type of food that you received on most days?

1 A. Most of the time.

2 Q. Witness, were there ever days when you were in Keraterm when you

3 weren't fed at all?

4 A. While I was there, 12 days, Room 3 was left without lunch. There

5 was not enough food for all rooms, and one room was left out. It was Room

6 number 2 or Room 3, I don't remember exactly.

7 Q. Can you describe the overall camp conditions briefly, please?

8 A. Generally, they were awful. They were impossible. It doesn't

9 fall within the range of normal at all. As I said, we slept on those

10 wooden pallets. We were 300, 400, 500 people, depending on the room.

11 There was one toilet to which we could go in a file. Five men were

12 released during the day, and they had to come back from the toilet within

13 five minutes.

14 The food was very poor and given out only once in 24 hours.

15 Q. Now, Witness, did there come a time while you were in Keraterm

16 that you later saw Jovo Radocaj being mistreated in the camp?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you please tell us what you either saw or heard?

19 A. The first day, that was the 23rd of June in the evening, after the

20 guards changed shift, Kajin and the guards which belonged to his shift,

21 went home at around 6.00 or 7.00. I don't know when exactly they

22 changed. And the shift that came in their stead included two brothers by

23 the name of Banovic.

24 In the evening when it was already quite dark, and since it was

25 the summer, it may have been 10.00, 10.30 or 11.00 p.m., we heard some

1 sort of shouting, commotion. Jovo Radocaj apparently was taken out from

2 his room. We heard moans, cursing, insults. Things like, "You Serb

3 joining the SDA. You should be skinned like a sheep for Bajram." That's

4 a Muslim holiday.

5 And during this beating, this group arrived somehow before our

6 door, the door of Room number 4. We heard terrible moaning, screams of

7 pain, and suddenly everything went quiet. The door of Room number 4 was

8 opened and Mr. Jovo Radocaj was thrown into our room.

9 Since I was sitting right next to the door, on a wooden crate, a

10 crate for soda bottles, I wasn't able to sleep, and an acquaintance of

11 mine was sitting next to me, we made room for Jovo Radocaj to lie down

12 between us. He was covered with blood, terribly beaten up, black and

13 blue. He was in a terrible state, asking for water, saying, "Please let

14 me lie down. Give me water." And from 4.30 to 5.15, during that period

15 he died.

16 Q. Witness, what was done with Jovo Radocaj's body?

17 A. When it dawned, a different shift came. They changed around 7.00

18 or 6.00 in the morning and 7.00 or 6.00 in the evening, and then Jovo

19 Radocaj's body and another one or two bodies were loaded onto a trolly in

20 front of our room, and those corpses were taken somewhere behind the

21 building and thrown onto some kind of waste dump.

22 Q. Witness, did there come a time when you were in Keraterm that you

23 saw Drago Tokmadzic?

24 A. Yes. Drago Tokmadzic lay in that same hallway. He was the first

25 next to the room, and I was first next to the door. It was a line of

1 about 12 to 14 people. And on my first day, I spoke to Drago Tokmadzic.

2 That was on the 23rd, in the afternoon. And on the 24th in the morning,

3 we went to lunch together. That was on the 24th.

4 Q. Did anything happen to Drago Tokmadzic later that day, and if so,

5 please tell us what happened.

6 A. The next day, in the evening, that is the 24th, around the same

7 time, Drago Tokmadzic was called out and he did come out. He was ordered

8 to undress, to take off his top, whatever he had on him. I think it was a

9 shirt or T-shirt. And then we heard the sound of blunt blows, which we

10 could hear very well through the door. We couldn't see anything, but we

11 could hear well. We heard cursing also. And from the moment when we

12 started counting those blunt blows, I counted around 180 blows with brief

13 breaks when they poured water over him to get him to come round.

14 Q. Did you hear the people that were doing the beating saying

15 anything to Drago Tokmadzic?

16 A. Something was being said regarding some car accident, some child

17 who had been run over. This is what I heard. These voices punctuated by

18 screams and moans, and something in reference to the Serb was said.

19 Q. Did you hear Drago Tokmadzic say anything or utter any words?

20 A. He just kept moaning. He had no strength to say anything.

21 Q. Did the guards call anyone else out of the room at that time?

22 A. The guards asked Drago whether there were other police officers

23 with him in the room, and Drago mentioned the name of Esad Islamovic as he

24 was losing his strength. And then Esad Islamovic was called out. And

25 Esad Islamovic came out, and they -- again blows started and then moans

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1 and screams of pain. That went on for another 20 minutes to half an

2 hour. Then it quieted down, and then an order came that four men come out

3 carry back those two in.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'd ask to go into closed session for

5 just a few questions, please.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, closed session.

7 [Private session]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

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21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]

23 MR. MUNDIS:

24 Q. Witness, after he was brought back into the room, can you describe

25 what happened to Drago Tokmadzic?

1 A. Drago Tokmadzic was all black and blue. In other words, he was

2 stripped to the waist. His trousers were wet. He had a Seiko watch which

3 they had not taken, but it had been broken. Just the strap was there and

4 the dial and the hands had fallen out. Drago Tokmadzic was unconscious.

5 About 15 minutes to half an hour later, Drago died.

6 Q. Witness, do you know what happened to Drago Tokmadzic's body?

7 A. Yes. Drago Tokmadzic's body lay there until the morning, and in

8 the morning it was carried on the same cart that Jovo Radocaj was loaded

9 on -- had been loaded on, and it was taken behind Room 4 somewhere, that

10 Keraterm ceramics plant.

11 Q. Witness, do you recall a time when guards called out Albanian

12 persons from the Keraterm -- from the rooms in Keraterm?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you describe that incident for us, please?

15 A. First, one Albanian man was called out by name. I don't know who

16 it was, I don't recall, but then it was ordered that all Albanians come

17 out. Then all Albanians who were -- who were in our room - I think three

18 or four were in our room - they were all taken out and again the same

19 shouts and blows, the same blunt hits as with Mr. Jovo and with

20 Tokmadzic. A couple of hours later, they were thrown back in. They all

21 had injuries on their heads, arms. One of the Albanians was carried

22 inside, into my room, and he remained there. He stayed there for six or

23 seven days and then he died.

24 Q. What was his condition during the six or seven days that he

25 remained in your room prior to dying?

1 A. Throughout this time, he was throwing up blood and something

2 yellow or green. I don't know what it was, spleen or something. I think

3 that all -- that everything inside, the internal organs were ripped and so

4 he was dying for six to seven days.

5 Q. Witness, did you know who that person was, this Albanian man?

6 A. I did not know him.

7 Q. Do you think you had ever seen him before? Do you recall ever

8 seeing him before you were in Keraterm?

9 A. This Albanian arrived with us in the van.

10 Q. And had you ever seen him before that day in the van?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Witness, do you know a person by the name of Kapetanovic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you see him in the Keraterm camp?

15 A. Yes. Mr. Kapetanovic was called out after the Albanian. It was

16 the fourth night or the fifth night, and they called out his name. I

17 don't know his first name, but it was Kapetanovic. He was a well-known

18 person in town. I think he was a manager of a company. He was taken out

19 and beaten up, and then was taken back to the room with a visible injuries

20 but not life threatening, and he survived.

21 Q. Witness, do you know what ethnicity Mr. Kapetanovic was?

22 A. Muslim.

23 Q. And what about the Albanian people that were called out of the

24 room, what ethnicity were they?

25 MR. VUCICEVIC: Objection, Your Honour. There is no foundation

1 for this question at all. The witness has testified he didn't know him.

2 He only saw him in the van and being transported. And I think judicial

3 notice could be taken that there are Albanians who are Catholics, orthodox

4 and Muslim.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it of importance what --

7 MR. MUNDIS: I'll move on, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, move on.

9 MR. MUNDIS:

10 Q. Witness, approximately how many days did you stay in Keraterm?

11 A. 12 days.

12 Q. Do you recall the date that you left Keraterm?

13 A. Yes. This was between 3rd and 4rd of July when we were ordered to

14 make a list, the inhabitants of my village. We were told that we would be

15 taken to the -- our stadium. We compiled a list, put our names down, and

16 then two buses arrived. Then we boarded the buses. The -- those who

17 escorted us were the special police unit members with red berets, blue

18 uniforms, and they escorted us first onto the buses and then onward.

19 Q. So, Witness, let me attempt to clarify, you were told that you

20 were going to the stadium in Ljubija but, in fact, you were taken to

21 Omarska; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you describe for us what happened once the buses arrived at

24 Omarska?

25 A. When we arrived in Omarska, we got off the buses, lined up, then

1 they made a list of us again. Then we were put in a garage, a very small

2 garage and we were 105. So we spent some time in that garage. Then they

3 divided us into two groups. One group numbered 40, 45 and that group was

4 sent to a small room above the hangar, and the other group remained in the

5 garage.

6 Q. Witness, how soon was it after your arrival in Omarska that you

7 received anything to eat?

8 A. 48 hours.

9 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Court the conditions in the

10 Omarska camp, please?

11 A. The conditions in Omarska were even more awful than those in

12 Keraterm. Simply put, we had -- we didn't even have the pallets and

13 blankets. We slept on the concrete. At night, we would sleep in the

14 kitchen. And this last group that arrived during the day, we spent on the

15 pista.

16 Q. Can you describe for us the food and access to water in Omarska?

17 A. We used industrial water that -- that was used by the mining

18 company, and the food was distributed once every 24 hours. In this case,

19 a loaf would be shared into eight equal parts so we could get one eighth

20 of an 800 gram loaf. And on the plate, it would be .2 litres of -- we

21 could call it a stew or a soup with some maybe vegetable or potato in it

22 but no taste.

23 Q. Witness, was there a person in the Omarska camp that you came to

24 call the Karate Kid?

25 A. Yes. It was not myself who started call him Karate Kid but he,

1 himself, while he was beating prisoners, he referred to himself as the

2 Karate Kid. He would say, "I'm a Karate Kid, and now you'll see what it

3 means to get beaten."

4 Q. Did you see this person known as the Karate Kid mistreat any

5 detainees in Omarska?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you briefly tell us what you saw him do?

8 A. When we arrived on the 4th, between 4th and 5th of July, that

9 night, it was Krkan's shift in which Karate Kid worked, and a gentleman

10 called Safet Sumic was taken out of the room and -- he quickly returned

11 with like a -- wearing a helmet, and he was told that he should collect --

12 should make a collection to take the money for all the damage done to the

13 room like broken windows, broken lock, things like that. That was to be

14 like 120.000 Serb dinars.

15 Q. Witness, did there come a time when the Karate Kid mistreated you

16 personally and, if so, can you please tell us about that incident?

17 A. Yes. First, he kicked me. I was in the room with these other

18 fellow inmates. And the second time when the Karate Kid entered the room,

19 he was looking -- he said, "Where's the money," because we had only

20 collected about 5.000, 6.000 dinars. And then I dared say that all the

21 money had been taken away from us at Keraterm because that is what had

22 happened. Then he cursed my mother. He kicked me in the chest, around

23 the heart. And that was very convenient to him, because I was sitting on

24 the floor. It was a very hard kick so I nearly blacked out from this

25 kick.

1 He attempted to hit another fellow inmate in the head, but he

2 avoided the kick and then he went out again and then he started -- and

3 then we started being called out. I was called out fifth or sixth. I was

4 taken to another room. There was only an office desk in it and there

5 were -- there was the Karate Kid, and there were three additional guards

6 and the fourth and a fifth guard was outside with his rifle cocked.

7 Then questioning started. Did I answer call-up? And when I

8 answered not, that I was not in a reserve force for that last year, then

9 the question was why. Then again they asked for money, did I have any

10 money. And then the beatings started.

11 Q. What kind of instruments did they use to beat you with?

12 A. The Karate Kid was to the right, and for the most part he was

13 kicking me with his right foot, and he had either a military -- military

14 boots or some hiking boots. I think that they were made in Slovenia. On

15 the other side, there was another guy who was kicking me with his left

16 foot on the front, and then another one was there with a police baton and

17 another one with a piece of cable or something, and those two were beating

18 me from behind.

19 Q. Witness, what type of injuries did you receive as a result of this

20 beating?

21 A. I had -- both my eyebrows broken. I had swellings under my eyes,

22 then in my kidney area. But during this beating, I was able to stay on my

23 feet for about 15, 20 feet. Then after I fell down, they continued to

24 kick me while I was lying. Then I crawled out all on my -- all fours out

25 of the room. As I was doing that, other guards stopped me and asked me to

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1 make a three-finger salute. Then I got a severe blow with a piece of

2 cable that had some kind of metal ending, and later on it turned out that

3 I had a two- or three-centimetre long gash and a fracture at the base of

4 my skull so that I suffer from severe headaches even to date.

5 Q. Witness, you testified that your eyebrows were broken. Can you

6 please indicate what you meant by that?

7 A. They were both cut from the blows that I received.

8 Q. Witness, did there come a time shortly after this beating incident

9 that you were called out of the room to be interrogated?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you describe for us what happened on that day, please?

12 A. I was taken to the room above the kitchen on that day. That was

13 in the so-called administration building. That was the third or fourth

14 room upstairs from the staircase, and I was interrogated there by some

15 older gentleman who was somewhat greying. In my opinion, he was from

16 Banja Luka. So he questioned me whether -- you know, what I was a part

17 of, whom I knew. And when he did not get the answers that he wanted from

18 me, he called in two guards. They were again members of the special

19 units, in camouflage uniforms. They had a real military look, whereas the

20 others really looked like ragtag soldiers. Then one hit me in one kidney,

21 the other one in the other. Those were kicks with their boots.

22 I started losing consciousness, but I was able to straighten up on

23 my knees, and I said, "Whatever the gentleman heard from me is what I have

24 to say, and you can kill me now." Then he waved to them. They stopped

25 kicking me and I was allowed to go back to the pista.

1 Q. Now, Witness, were you familiar with any kind of classification

2 scheme that was used on the basis of these interrogations?

3 A. I didn't know, but we ourselves identified certain categories.

4 Whoever was sent to the "white house," that person was to be killed

5 because they would not survive that. Whoever was sent to the pista, those

6 were either -- to them or to us, they seemed like sort of lighter cases

7 and they would hang on longer.

8 Q. Witness, you've testified about being out on the pista. Can you

9 describe for the Court what the pista is?

10 A. Pista was an area of -- which was paved with concrete, between the

11 administration building on the one side and the big structure, the garage

12 where they kept heavy machinery, the hangar.

13 Q. Was the pista covered or was it open to the elements?

14 A. It was open.

15 Q. Approximately how long were you forced to stay on the pista?

16 A. I stayed on the pista for about 15 days during daytime. In the

17 evening when it would get dark, we would be ordered to either go to the

18 kitchen and the tables would be pushed off to the side and we were there

19 in the middle, and the other one -- the other group would be taken to

20 Rooms 26 and 15.

21 Q. Do you recall approximately how many people were with you out on

22 the pista?

23 A. Five hundred, 600, 700 men.

24 Q. Were you allowed to move around on the pista?

25 A. No. We had to lie there all day long, for the most part on our

1 stomachs so we would not be able to see the mistreatment of our fellow

2 inmates.

3 Q. Witness, while you were in Omarska, did you ever see any bodies,

4 dead bodies, in Omarska?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Approximately how many dead bodies did you see there?

7 A. Approximately 13, 14, 15. I'm not sure about the exact number.

8 Q. Now, Witness, while you were in Omarska, did you see any women

9 being detained there, and if so, approximately how many?

10 A. Yes, women were also detained there. While we were on the pista

11 during the day, women were in the kitchen. They were, for the most part,

12 hanging around the window and watching us, observing us. There were

13 between 25 and 40 of them there. I'm not sure about the number.

14 Q. Do you recall if you had seen any women being detained in

15 Keraterm?

16 A. Yes. The first couple of days, I saw two women in passing. I

17 recognised one of them, one lady, and I -- I did not know the other one.

18 Q. Witness, approximately how long did you remain in the Omarska

19 camp?

20 A. Thirty-two days.

21 Q. On what day did you leave and where were you taken?

22 A. From what I remember, and it's not so easy years hence, it was on

23 the 6th of August that names were called out and some men were taken to

24 Trnopolje. I think there were 110 men per bus, and I think there were

25 about 10, 11 buses, and we were bused to Manjaca.

1 Q. And what were the conditions like in Manjaca?

2 A. At Manjaca, we slept in a barn that was used for cattle. That

3 was -- that was -- and then part of the floor was covered with macadam.

4 We slept in three rows. Fortunately, I was in the middle, which was

5 concrete, and that is where I slept.

6 Q. And, Witness, how long did you remain at Manjaca?

7 A. At Manjaca I stayed until 16 December 1992, when under auspices of

8 UNHCR and ICRC we were freed and escorted to Karlovac.

9 Q. As part of that escort process, did you have to sign any documents

10 or take any oath or make any kind of promises?

11 A. Yes. We signed documents that we would not come back to Bosnia

12 and Herzegovina.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Witness I. The Prosecution has no further

14 questions at this time, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

16 Witness I, we are now going to take a break for half an hour.

17 During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody

18 including the members of the Prosecution team. We are adjourned until

19 11.30.

20 --- Break taken at 11.02 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

23 MR. GREAVES: May it please Your Honour. Could we go please, very

24 briefly, into private session.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

1 [Private session]

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

3 [redacted]

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21 [Open session]

22 MR. GREAVES:

23 Q. Witness I, I want just to very briefly explore the issues

24 surrounding the call-ups which were issued in late 1991. Were those

25 call-ups sent to all citizens of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at

1 that time?

2 A. All members of the reserve army in the Prijedor municipality.

3 Q. And is it within your knowledge that similar call-ups were sent to

4 reservists in other opstinas?

5 A. I think so.

6 Q. There was a demonstration organised, was there not, against the

7 call-ups? Did you participate in any way in the organisation of that

8 demonstration?

9 A. The first time when I was called up into the reserve force of the

10 5th Kozarac Brigade of the Prijedor municipality, that is the Territorial

11 Defence of Prijedor. I responded. We were at Benkovac, that is in 1991

12 when the problems in Slovenia were taking place.

13 The second time when I was called up in 1991 in October, it was

14 already clear that it was necessary to go to the front line in Croatia.

15 At that time, I took part in the demonstrations before the town hall in

16 Prijedor. I boycotted the mobilisation and didn't respond.

17 Q. Yes, Witness I. It's that demonstration that I was talking

18 about. Did you take part in its organisation in any way?

19 A. No. It was a spontaneous gathering of all reservists, all the

20 citizens who didn't want to go to Croatia to lose their lives for

21 nothing.

22 Q. We've heard, Witness I, from another witness who has told us about

23 how it was an organised demonstration, but you say it was spontaneous, do

24 you?

25 A. I maintain it was spontaneous.

1 Q. It's right, isn't it, that the majority of Croats and Muslims in

2 your area declined to honour the call-up?

3 A. Yes, the overwhelming majority.

4 Q. Nevertheless, some Muslims and some Croats did go to the fighting

5 in Croatia, didn't they?

6 A. As for those others, it's their own problem, and it is true that a

7 small number of people did honour the call-up.

8 Q. I want to turn now to the plebiscite which was held in about

9 February 1992 in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was a plebiscite organised by,

10 in large part, the SDS party; is that correct?

11 A. Yes. Not in large part but completely. What was indicated was

12 that it was a plebiscite of the Serbian people.

13 Q. You see, what I suggest to you, Witness I, is that it was not

14 confined only to Serbs but that all other people could take part in it if

15 they so chose. That's correct, isn't it?

16 A. Yes, whoever felt as a Serb, anyone who wished to disregard their

17 own religion or ethnicity. I don't know how many of them there could have

18 been in Bosnia and Herzegovina, maybe a couple of cases, but what was

19 indicated on the posters which were all around was a plebiscite of the

20 Serbian people, whereas in the case of the referendum, it was all the

21 referendum of the people of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22 Q. I wasn't asking you about that referendum. The people who did

23 vote, there were both Muslims and Croats who did take part in the

24 SDS-organised plebiscite, didn't they?

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1 Q. Those were of non-Serb origin who took part in it, Witness I, they

2 had a perfect democratic right to take part in that expression of opinion,

3 didn't they, if they so chose?

4 A. I'm not aware of that. I'm not aware of anyone from my

5 municipality who took part in that plebiscite of the Serbian people.

6 Q. You were asked questions about the ethnic make-up of your home

7 district, Witness I. I'd just like to ask you a little bit more about the

8 ethnic make-up of Yugoslavia. Would you accept this proposition, that

9 prior to 1992, Serbs as a whole were in a majority throughout the

10 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. There were Serbs living in every republic and autonomous region

13 that existed in 1992, were there not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the event that those republics and autonomous regions were to

16 have broken away from the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the

17 effect would be, would it not, that the Serbs would have become a minority

18 in every area except for what is now the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

19 A. With the separation of Bosnia and Herzegovina from the former

20 Yugoslavia, Serbs would not become a minority but would have become a

21 constituent part of Bosnia-Herzegovina's ethnic make-up because there are

22 no minorities there.

23 Q. The people who regarded themselves as owing allegiance to the Serb

24 Nation would have become in numbers a minority in not just

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina but everywhere else except for what is now the Federal

1 Republic of Yugoslavia. Is that right or not, Witness I?

2 A. Sir, they are a minority if we look at the entire world or

3 Europe. Someone somewhere has to be a minority.

4 JUDGE MAY: It's a relative straightforward question. Why not

5 simply answer, "Yes," and go on?

6 Let's not waste any more time on this.

7 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

8 Q. The -- going back to the second referendum which was held about

9 which you spoke, that was boycotted by the Serbs; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you accept, Witness I, that it was their democratic right not

12 to take part in such a referendum?

13 A. What their right was, anyone could turn out at the referendum. It

14 was free. One part of their people did take part in the referendum.

15 Q. Turning now, please, to the period around February/March 1992,

16 it's right, isn't it, that on both sides, people began to organise

17 themselves for the protection of themselves and their families; do you

18 accept that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And for example, buses were organised allowing people to travel

21 where they wanted to out of Prijedor?

22 A. That would have been convenient for the Serbian Democratic Party

23 if people had left of their own accord, then they would remain a majority.

24 Q. I wonder if you'd like to answer the question now, please, Witness

25 I.

1 A. Please repeat the question.

2 Q. Amongst the things that were organised, Witness I, were buses

3 which took people of whatever nationality out of the region of Prijedor;

4 that's correct, isn't it?

5 A. Yes, mostly women and children.

6 Q. And those were people of all ethnicities; that's right, isn't it?

7 A. I don't know about that. I wasn't on any of the buses.

8 Q. You see what you told the Office of the Prosecutor when you made a

9 long, 31-page statement to them in 1994 was this: "At this time, buses

10 from the Prijedor bus company were travelling to Belgrade and Banja Luka

11 and Serbs were able to travel to these places and get out of Prijedor."

12 Do you recall saying that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in addition, there were Muslims going to Zagreb and other

15 places, were there not, in the same way?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Once the takeover of power in Prijedor had taken place, there was

18 initially no effect whatever on your home area of Donja Ljubija, was

19 there?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. The SDA remained in power in your village, did it not?

22 A. Yes, for a while.

23 Q. And how soon after the takeover of power in Prijedor was a Crisis

24 Staff formed in Donja Ljubija?

25 A. I don't know exactly when the Crisis Staff in Ljubija was

1 established, but it was about a month and a half or two later.

2 Q. The -- how was the Crisis Staff formed, by appointment, by

3 election, what?

4 A. The people of my village gathered in the cinema hall and they

5 elected somehow about 10 people on to that Crisis Staff so that they could

6 talk to the newly-established representative body of the Prijedor

7 municipality.

8 MR. GREAVES: May we briefly go into private session, Your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

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8 [Open session]

9 MR. GREAVES:

10 Q. When the Crisis Staff was set up, is it right that people in the

11 village also voted to take up arms, if necessary?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you not vote that you were going to take steps to defend

14 yourselves in the event of any form of military activity?

15 A. It was agreed only that we would not sign the act of loyalty.

16 Q. You told the Office of the Prosecutor in 1994 this: "We voted

17 that we were going to defend ourselves if we were attacked."

18 Do you recall saying that, Witness I?

19 A. Yes. If we voted as we did, that we wouldn't sign the oath of

20 loyalty, then we had to defend ourselves.

21 Q. The Crisis Staff took charge of the police in Donja Ljubija, did

22 it not?

23 A. I don't remember that.

24 Q. Again, that is what you told the Office of the Prosecutor in

25 1994. It's right, isn't it, that the structure of the police remained

1 exactly as it had been before the takeover of power in Prijedor?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And it was decided, was it not, that civilians were going to man

4 checkpoints alongside those very same police officers?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You didn't at any time wear any sort of uniform or insignia whilst

7 doing that, did you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Those civilians who were manning checkpoints were armed, were they

10 not?

11 A. Hunting weapons changed hands. They were shared.

12 Q. As far as an incident at Hambarine on 21st of May, 1992 is

13 concerned, it's right, isn't it, that you were aware that a number of

14 occupants, Serb occupants, of a motor vehicle were fired upon and wounded

15 during such an incident at a checkpoint? Do you recall that?

16 A. I didn't know about it. I found out later, at the end. And it

17 says also in the statement that reservists from the vehicle fired first

18 and that provoked a response to their fire.

19 Q. You recall your statement. Have you read it recently, Witness I?

20 A. No.

21 Q. I'd like to turn now, please, to the issue of an ultimatum on the

22 24th of May, 1992, to the Crisis Staff. It's right, isn't it, that the

23 surrender having effectively taken place, the Serb authorities were

24 obviously satisfied with how and what had taken place in your village?

25 Would you accept that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the consequence of that were that no shots were fired at that

3 time?

4 A. No.

5 Q. A number of Muslims and Croats elected to remain in the police

6 force at that time. Do you accept that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You perceived those people as traitors, didn't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The man Jovo Radocaj, who was thought -- was a Serb and was

11 thought to have voted for the SDA, the Serbs thought of him as a traitor,

12 didn't they?

13 A. Probably.

14 Q. Can you help us, please, about this: The police chief was a man

15 called Branko Bjekic?

16 A. Yes, for a while. After that, he was taken to the Omarska camp.

17 Q. And he was, by ethnicity, a Croat?

18 A. Yes. He was commander of the police after the takeover of the

19 police force in Ljubija, but only formally, on paper.

20 Q. And then two Croats, also members of the police, Drincic -- one

21 called Niko Drincic and another, his son Darko Drincic; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Both those men took part in detentions of people in the area; is

24 that right?

25 A. Yes. They were real traitors.

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1 Q. And as late as December 1994, Darko Drincic was still working for

2 the Serbian police?

3 A. I think he did.

4 Q. Then a man -- I'm going to ask you now about some Muslims who

5 continued to work for the police. Mujo Odobasic. Do you recall him?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. GREAVES: May we go briefly into private session, please?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [Open session]

10 Q. Avdo Topic, was he a Muslim policeman who continued to work after

11 the takeover?

12 A. He was in the reserve force of the police, and he continued

13 working after the takeover.

14 Q. Fikret Brdar or Brda, was he a Muslim who continued to work in the

15 police?

16 A. Yes. All of them continued on the police force for a while.

17 After we were taken to the camp, all of them, to the last man, were

18 discharged, their uniforms and weapons were taken away, and they were

19 taken to the camp, some of them. Others were killed in front of their

20 houses.

21 Q. The Territorial Defence force continued to exist, did it not?

22 A. Which Territorial Defence?

23 Q. What you told the Office of the Prosecutor was this: "The

24 Territorial Defence forces became known as the Serbian Territorial Defence

25 forces."

1 Do you recall that?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Were any of those who took part in the so-called Serbian

4 Territorial Defence forces non-Serbs?

5 A. I think that they were also some of those.

6 Q. Would this be correct, Witness I, that Bosnians of Muslim

7 ethnicity and Bosnian of Croat ethnicity at that time considered they had

8 allegiance to the Republic Bosnia-Herzegovina, did they not?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. On the other side of that particular coin, the Serbs who lived in

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina considered that they had allegiance to Serbia, did they

12 not?

13 A. I didn't consider it. They were loyal to Serbia.

14 Q. There was an occasion, was there not, when a Serb military unit

15 came into the area and began to misbehave, some by looting and some by

16 other forms of misbehaviour; do you recall that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It's right, is it not, that the Serb police stopped their

19 activities the morning after they had arrived; do you accept that?

20 A. Yes. After they had covered that is crossed over to the mid-point

21 in the village, when they had covered more than half of the village.

22 Q. And it was at around this time when 500 men from Donja Ljubija

23 were rounded up and taken to the football stadium. It's right, isn't it,

24 that they were allowed to go home as a result of the intervention of the

25 Serbian police?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was there a problem with a particular military unit called the 5th

3 Kozara Brigade of the Territorial Defence of Prijedor in your area?

4 A. The question is not clear to me.

5 Q. Yes. At about this time, was there a particular problem with a

6 unit known as the 5th Kozara Brigade of the Territorial Defence from

7 Prijedor?

8 A. I don't recall.

9 Q. Was it those that the Serbian police were engaged in trying to

10 control?

11 A. I don't recall whether that was the 5th Kozara Brigade, but I know

12 that there were all kinds of uniforms. But it wasn't a brigade, it was a

13 mob. It was a large group of armed people who went about looting in my

14 village.

15 Q. Before you were detained and taken to Keraterm, you were

16 interrogated several times, were you not?

17 A. I wasn't interrogated. I just had to be present at the police

18 station and then they would let me go in the afternoon, and the next

19 morning I would have to report myself. So I would come and go on my own.

20 Q. We'll come back to the manner of the interrogations in a moment,

21 Witness I. It's right, isn't it, that amongst those who were

22 interrogating you were Drago Tokmadzic, a Croat; do you recall that?

23 A. Yes. From what I recall, Drago Tokmadzic was from a mixed

24 marriage so he was half Croat, half Serb.

25 Q. And another man called Mirko Daljevic; would that be correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What ethnicity was he?

3 A. Serb.

4 Q. You were, indeed, asked a number of questions, were you not,

5 Witness I, at that interrogation?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In particular, about your political affiliations?

8 A. All questions boiled down to the situation, the tension, and

9 obviously it included political ones.

10 Q. Your view of that interrogation was that it was a mild and not

11 unpleasant interrogation; that's correct, isn't it?

12 A. Yes, it is correct.

13 Q. You were interrogated again by the same two men; do you accept

14 that?

15 A. Yes, on another occasion when I gave a statement.

16 Q. You had by now acquired some form of uniform, had you not?

17 A. I had not acquired any kind of uniform.

18 Q. Did they not question you about a uniform which you had made

19 yourself, Witness I, a camouflage uniform?

20 A. I did make one myself, but I said that I was not issued one. But,

21 yes, I did have one made on my own.

22 Q. And you confirm that it was a camouflage uniform that you had made

23 for yourself?

24 A. Yes. That was done from canvas used for tents that was more like

25 some kind of a poncho that would protect one from the rain and the

1 elements.

2 Q. It's right isn't that the chief of police came and spoke to you

3 about that uniform and advised you to be careful of what you were doing,

4 did he not?

5 A. This is what Mr. Bjekic said, Branko Bjekic. And he, himself, was

6 already at risk. He knew what was in the offer.

7 Q. There was an occasion after these two interrogations, was there

8 not, when you were detained by the head of the Territorial Defence,

9 Slobodan Taranjac; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And he was interested in whether or not you belonged to an

12 organisation known as the green berets; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And when you said you weren't, he released you, did he not?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. After that release, you were summoned several times to the police

17 station but not interrogated; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At about that time, it's right, is it not, that the days remained

20 quiet and the people were able to go about their business as they had

21 always been doing?

22 A. Yes, except that I could not go to work at that time, because I

23 was spending all days in the police station. My child was hungry and wet

24 all day long. My mother, his grandmother, was unable to help him because

25 he was -- she was ill. My wife was in the hospital. I did not know where

1 she was and what was going on with her. And this is what you call quiet.

2 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honour will give me a moment, please.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 Q. Again, if I may just remind you briefly so that we can refresh

5 your memory as to what you said to the Office of the Prosecutor: "For me

6 it was quiet. For me it was quite. The days were quiet and people were

7 able to go to the fields and do their work."

8 Do you recall saying that to the Office of the Prosecutor in

9 1994?

10 A. Yes. Except for the days when I was at the police station, and

11 quiet was in the sense of not -- there not being any shooting, and this

12 was a sort of lull before a storm.

13 Q. Witness I, you refer to "people." That, I suggest, is the

14 inhabitants of Donja Ljubija, is it not?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And indeed, you were actually gathering hay at the time when you

17 were arrested? That's right, isn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Having been arrested, they wanted to know if you had belonged to

20 the Crisis Staff. That's right, isn't it?

21 A. They wanted to know as much as they could.

22 Q. And you had been the subject of, I suggest, a very thorough

23 investigation, because they suspected that you were heavily involved in

24 military activity, Witness I. That's right, isn't it?

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1 in the same way.

2 Q. I'd like to now move, please, if we may to your removal to

3 Keraterm. Is it right that you were placed in Room 4?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Upon your arrival, is it right that there were between 500 and

6 1.000 people sitting outside on the grass and on the pista?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The Room 4 when you arrived, how many people were in Room 4?

9 A. Approximately 400 to 500 men.

10 Q. And is this correct, that in large part, the people detained at

11 Keraterm during your period when you were there were men of military age,

12 between the ages of 16 years and 60 years?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It's right, isn't it, that in relation to the water supply, that

15 every day a water tanker would arrive at the camp and the detainees were

16 allowed to fill bottles from it and take them to their room? Do you

17 accept that?

18 A. I agree. Bottles were about one litre size, and this is what we

19 had for the whole day until the next water tank arrived.

20 Q. Jovo Radocaj was taken out on the very first day when you were at

21 Keraterm; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was that in the morning or the evening?

24 A. That was in the evening.

25 Q. Is this correct in relation to your stay at Keraterm: "Since it

1 was summertime, guards would always wait until it was completely dark

2 before they would come to the rooms"?

3 A. They would not enter the rooms, except in one case when a group of

4 them burst in with some knives and pistols and leather gloves. Maybe I

5 didn't mention that. That happened once in our room. But the guards

6 would call people out from outside, individual men to come out.

7 Q. Now would you be so kind as to answer the question which I asked

8 you, Witness I. It's correct, is it not, in relation to your stay at

9 Keraterm, that it being summertime, the guards would always wait until it

10 was completely dark before coming anywhere near the rooms? Do you accept

11 that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Apart from taking part in interrogations, did Drago Tokmadzic also

14 take part in the arrests of people who were brought to Keraterm and

15 elsewhere?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Esad Islamovic, was he a policeman from Ljubija?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did he take part in arrests of people who were brought to

20 Keraterm?

21 A. No. He worked as a policeman in Prijedor. He was disarmed the

22 first day after the takeover of power in Prijedor by the SDS and after

23 that he was at his home.

24 Q. On the third night that you were at Keraterm, it's right, isn't

25 it, that between eight and ten Albanians were in the camp?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Some of those were beaten on your third night at the camp, but

3 they did not receive any life-threatening injuries, did they?

4 A. Except for one who died after a six- or seven-day agony.

5 Q. The man about whom my learned friend Mr. Mundis asked you,

6 Kapetanovic, was he someone who was ill-treated because he was a rich

7 merchant?

8 A. In my opinion and from what I knew, he was a manager of some

9 company in Prijedor before the war, and he was mistreated because he was a

10 manager. He was an educated man and he was wealthy.

11 Q. It's right, is it not, that shortly after -- about a week after

12 you had been at the camp, a medical technician arrived in a minibus? Is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And a number of other medical staff came in an ambulance from the

16 hospital in Prijedor?

17 A. Two or three.

18 Q. And it was at that point that several people were actually taken

19 to hospital to have their injuries treated. Do you accept that?

20 A. Apparently they were taken to the hospital.

21 Q. It's right, isn't it, that over the next few days there were no

22 beatings during the night? Do you accept that?

23 A. No. The last two, three days were quiet.

24 Q. And during that period, people were being continuously

25 interrogated but as far as you knew, nobody was being beaten during such

1 interrogations.

2 A. I don't recall.

3 Q. Again, if I can refresh your memory, please, Witness I, that's

4 what you told the Office of the Prosecutor in 1994, "As far as I am aware,

5 there were no beatings in the interrogations." Do you recall saying that?

6 A. Yes, from what I remember.

7 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that people were in Prijedor and the

8 villages around Prijedor were able to come and bring packages, some of

9 which contained food for their families?

10 A. Only from the town proper, and from the outlying area. But nobody

11 from my village could come to deliver a package or something like that.

12 Q. It's right, isn't it, that at one stage, you were able to send --

13 sorry. Can I just ask you this: Fikret Brda, one of the Muslim

14 policemen, is he also someone you regard as a traitor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. He's the man, is he not, who took a note from you to your wife

17 whilst you were in Keraterm; do you remember that?

18 A. Had it not been for those like him and the Serb aggression, we

19 would not be where we were. We would not need the certificates. We would

20 not need packages delivered. We would not be in the camp, and we would

21 not have -- we would have had a normal country like they are trying to

22 establish now.

23 Q. Witness I, if you won't answer the questions that you don't like,

24 you're going to be here a lot longer than is absolutely necessary. What

25 is the answer to the question?

1 A. Can you please repeat the question.

2 Q. It's right, isn't it, that Fikret Brda was the very same man who

3 took a note addressed to your wife and gave it to her?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'd like to ask you now about the classification of people at

6 Omarska.

7 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honour will just give me a moment.

8 [Defence counsel confer]

9 MR. GREAVES: Sorry, I'll come back to that in a moment, if I

10 may.

11 Q. Do you recall the name Milan Curguz?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. It's right, isn't it, that that man would come to the camp every

14 day bringing packages containing clothing, food, cigarettes, and personal

15 items as you put it in your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor,

16 "from our families."

17 A. Yes. And Milan Curguz called Krivi was killed because of that by

18 the Serb police, and Fikret Brda was killed in front of his own house

19 after -- between the transfer from Omarska to Manjaca. He was killed in

20 front of his house.

21 Q. It's right, isn't it, that none of the packages which Milan Curguz

22 brought to the camp was in any way interfered with by the guards?

23 A. Yes. Only the packages bought in by Milan Curguz but this is why

24 Milan Curguz disappeared.

25 Q. The question of classification of prisoners at Omarska, there was,

1 amongst those who had been interrogated, there was a protected group, was

2 there not, who were not to be beaten in any way?

3 A. I think so.

4 Q. And the people who were to be so treated, they were the political

5 elite, were they not, the doctors, the teachers and the professional

6 people?

7 A. Yes, for the most part.

8 Q. I want to ask you now, you claimed that in 1992, the carpets in

9 the mosque were damaged by fire. It's right, is it not, that, in fact,

10 the mosque in Ljubija remained intact until February of 1993. That's what

11 you told the Office of the Prosecutor in 1994, Witness I, does that

12 refresh your memory?

13 A. Yes, that is correct. In February 1993, the mosque was blown up,

14 to the ground.

15 Q. Yes. The point is this, Witness I: It's not correct, is it, that

16 damage was caused to the mosque in 1992, otherwise it couldn't have

17 remained intact until 1993, could it?

18 A. It was damaged. So there was damage. You know how much these

19 rugs cost? There were many of them, and then the windows were also

20 broken. And a special unit, a mining unit arrived, set the explosives on

21 all corners and blew it up.

22 Q. Witness I, I want to turn very briefly to a matter that I'm sure

23 is very sensitive to you, but you will forgive me, I have to ask the

24 questions, it concerns the death of your child. Your child was not the

25 only child to die shortly after being born in Prijedor at that time, was

1 it?

2 A. My child was not -- did not die in Prijedor. It was born in Banja

3 Luka where there was a very well-equipped hospital with all available

4 equipment there. And the women who were Muslim or Croat who happened to

5 be there did not receive appropriate care unlike the Serb women, and those

6 children were not helped.

7 Those children who were born on time, who were carried to full

8 term, they survived. But my child was a premature child. My wife heard

9 it crying when it was born, and the nurse told her that it was born and

10 then it died, and we know nothing about the baby's fate.

11 Q. Well, I suggest to you, Witness I, and I'm sorry, I got the wrong

12 town, I apologise for that, I suggest to you that others, other children

13 of all races died in Banja Luka in part because there were no supplies of

14 oxygen getting into the city at that time, the corridor not having been

15 established.

16 A. I don't know that, sir, because I was not in a hospital in Banja

17 Luka. I don't know how many children were -- what died there. I'm sure

18 that there are statistics in the Banja Luka hospital.

19 Q. Witness I, when you left Omarska around the 6th of August, 1992,

20 had there been some recent arrivals from Keraterm at that time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did some of those accompany you to Manjaca?

23 A. Yes. Some of the guards from the Keraterm camp were in the convoy

24 which escorted the buses to Manjaca.

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1 6th of August, detainees from Keraterm?

2 A. Before the 6th of August, prisoners from Keraterm and from

3 villages arrived.

4 Q. And in particular, those who had come from Keraterm, were some or

5 all of those taken with you to Manjaca?

6 A. Most of them.

7 Q. I'd like to turn now, please, to someone who you know of by the

8 name of Dusko Sikirica. Is that a name of which you've heard before,

9 Witness I?

10 A. I know only the last name of Sikirica. The first name Dusko is

11 unfamiliar to me.

12 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you have some knowledge of him being at

13 Keraterm?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The observation that you were able to make of the man Sikirica was

16 that he was no more than a regular guard at Keraterm. That's right, isn't

17 it?

18 A. We weren't able to know who had which rank, but this man Sikirica,

19 Dusko, as you say, wore a camouflage uniform. He was very strapped, had a

20 real military look.

21 Q. Yes. But what you observed of him and how you described him to

22 Brenda Hollis of the OTP in the year 2000 was that he was regular guard.

23 That's right, isn't it?

24 A. That was my conclusion and my opinion.

25 Q. And you would only ever see him on the same shift, the shift of a

1 man called Kajin?

2 A. I would see Sikirica during the day when we were released

3 outdoors, and we were mostly let out outdoors when it was Kajin's shift on

4 duty, and that's when I saw Mr. Sikirica.

5 Q. You never saw Sikirica take part in any beating, did you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. It never appeared to you that he was in charge of the camp, did

8 it?

9 A. Sir, at that time, we didn't dare think, observe, or look. All

10 that we did notice was the result of occasional peeks, and I didn't really

11 see what rank he had at the time.

12 Q. I'm relying on what you told Brenda Hollis, and another lady,

13 Susan Tucker, on the 25th June of last year, which was this: You said

14 that Sikirica never appeared as if he were in charge. That's what you

15 told those two ladies, isn't it?

16 A. I don't know what's written there. I don't remember.

17 Q. You never saw Sikirica give any orders to anyone, did you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And indeed, whilst you saw him wandering round the grounds, he

20 talked more with prisoners than he did with any other guard while he was

21 walking around, didn't he?

22 A. He couldn't have possibly talked more to prisoners than he did to

23 guards.

24 Q. What you said, I suggest, to Brenda Hollis and Susan Tucker on the

25 25th of June last year was this: "While he wandered round the grounds of

1 the camp, he talked more with the prisoners than he did with other

2 guards."

3 Do you recall saying that to those two ladies?

4 A. While he was moving about the camp, the compound, other guards

5 were not in his company. Of course he talked to inmates, to prisoners,

6 when he was among them.

7 Q. And finally this, Witness I, and would you be so kind to answer

8 this question: There were no beatings and killings during the day when

9 Kajin was on duty as a shift commander. That's right, isn't it?

10 A. As far as I remember of those 12 days, there were not.

11 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. I have no further questions.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

13 Mr. Petrovic.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

16 Q. Witness, you didn't know Kajin from before you came to Keraterm;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. May I please ask you to describe how did Kajin look at the time

20 when you saw him, his physical appearance?

21 A. The first time I saw him, as far as I remember, that was at Haza.

22 He was wearing a military uniform, olive-green/grey colour. He was a tall

23 man, about 1.80 or 85 centimetres, taller than I am.

24 Q. How tall are you?

25 A. 1.75.

1 Q. In this statement you gave to Ms. Hollis, you said that Kajin was

2 about 1.80.

3 A. That's what I said right now.

4 Q. Yes. Tell me, please, is it true that Kajin had a brother at the

5 camp too?

6 A. I seem to remember he did.

7 Q. Is it true that his brother's name was also Kajin?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you please tell him [sic] what was the brother's height?

10 A. I don't remember. He was slightly less tall. We called them

11 Kajin 1 and Kajin 2. Kajin 1 was the shift commander and the other Kajin

12 was shorter.

13 Q. In your interview with the Prosecution, and when I say "interview

14 with the Prosecution" I mean your interview with Ms. Hollis on the 25th of

15 June last year --

16 A. You mean the statement.

17 Q. Yes. You said when Kajin was on duty, he let people out at

18 6.00 a.m.

19 A. Yes, most of the time.

20 Q. Is it true, since you seem to emphasise this, this didn't happen

21 with other shifts?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. Is it true that people were allowed to sit on the turf outside the

24 sleeping area?

25 A. How do you know about the turf?

1 Q. I'm putting to you a question and will you please just answer it.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I know about the turf from your statement, if that's

4 important.

5 You never saw Kajin issue any orders to anyone; is that correct?

6 A. No, except for --

7 Q. That's all right. That's fine. So you said to Ms. Hollis that

8 you had heard Kajin speaking to the -- in fact, you said you did not have

9 occasion to hear Kajin speak to the guards or issue any orders to them?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you hear that man addressing anyone? Did you hear anyone

12 address him in any other way than "Kajin"?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You never saw Kajin carrying weapons at Keraterm?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So you did see him with weapons or you didn't?

17 A. No, I didn't see him carrying any weapons.

18 Q. You mentioned a moment ago your departure to the hospital. You

19 mentioned some people who went to the hospital. Did you see Kajin on that

20 morning within the compound of the Keraterm?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. Do you know that this trip to the hospital was organised by Kajin?

23 A. No, I don't know that.

24 Q. I would like to go back to the beginning of your statement.

25 Several times in that statement you gave, you make a distinction between

1 the reserve force of the Territorial Defence and the reserve force of the

2 JNA. What's the distinction?

3 A. The Territorial Defence is the reserve force of the Yugoslav

4 Peoples' Army before the disintegration of Yugoslavia. In some cases, I

5 call it the reserve, in other cases I call it the Territorial Defence.

6 That's one and the same thing.

7 Q. In your statement, you give us a partial overview of the division

8 of power in the Prijedor municipality at this time before the takeover of

9 power. Do you know who held which department, if we can call them that,

10 which ministry?

11 A. Before that, there was a democratic authority in power in

12 Prijedor. It was democratically elected and sectors were -- departments

13 were divided. The police was in the hands of the SDA party, Territorial

14 Defence was also controlled by the -- was controlled by the SDS. That's

15 among the more important sectors.

16 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to who sends out call-ups? Is it in

17 the purview of the municipality, or is this call-up sent by state

18 authorities?

19 A. In a state of war, call-ups for mobilisation, not call-ups into

20 the reserve force, is in the purview of republican authorities, civilian

21 authorities such as the president of the republic, which gives his

22 approval and then the authorities issue these call-ups.

23 Q. Do you happen to remember when Bosnia and Herzegovina became an

24 independent, separate state?

25 A. It's difficult to remember all those dates. I think it was on the

1 1st of March 1992.

2 Q. So until that time, what we used to call Yugoslavia still

3 existed.

4 A. I don't remember. There were other authorities which were elected

5 in 1990, 1991 at the elections. They existed officially. I cannot swear

6 as to the date, because I have already forgotten some dates.

7 Q. When you were speaking about the rally where people went to

8 protest the call-ups, you said that you had received a reply from the

9 Presidency that you don't have to call to the call-up.

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. When was that rally?

12 A. It was in October 1991.

13 Q. When you say "the Presidency," you mean the Presidency of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know -- I'm sorry, I'll try it in a different way.

17 You said that when people were coming back from the front lines in

18 Croatia, they were allowed to keep their weapons on purpose. How do you

19 know about that?

20 A. Buses full of reservists were passing by my house. They fired

21 along the way, coming along the street.

22 Q. How do you know that they didn't go from there to the barracks and

23 returned their weapons?

24 A. You mean that they returned from their homes in the village to the

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1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Well, why did they take them from the barracks in the first place

3 then?

4 Q. Do you know why the Serbs boycotted the referendum about the

5 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Do you think, perhaps, that they had a reason or a misgivings, a

8 fear, a real fear or an imagined one?

9 A. They had an imagined fear which was due to the then behaviour of

10 the media such as the television of Belgrade which alleged that the

11 Serbian people were in danger.

12 Q. You were at Benkovac on Mount Kozara, is that correct, during the

13 war in Slovenia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This relay on Mount Kozara, did it have a military function except

16 for transmission of radio and television broadcasting?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Are you aware that there was an attempt to attack this relay point

19 on Mount Kozara?

20 A. This attack was mounted by Yugoslav military unit, by the army,

21 against the civilian staff which then manned this relay and they took them

22 over.

23 Q. I'll read out to you words from your own statement. You say

24 something entirely different here. "I heard on Radio Prijedor that a

25 group of armed people attempted to capture the relay, but this attempt was

1 thwarted by the JNA which is now protecting the relay."

2 A. They took it over into their own control so that they can

3 broadcast only the Belgrade television programming.

4 Q. I asked you about the attack and you told me the attack was

5 mounted by the JNA.

6 A. That was broadcast by Radio Prijedor just as all the other lies.

7 Q. Do you remember when those stars from the policemen's caps and

8 other uniforms were changed?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Do you remember what policemen had on their caps in January,

11 February, March 1992?

12 A. What policemen do you mean?

13 Q. I mean the policemen who performed the duties in Prijedor in

14 Ljubija, in your district.

15 A. Before they were disarmed, before Muslim and Croat policemen were

16 disarmed in Prijedor, all of them wore the same Yugoslav emblems including

17 that star.

18 Q. If Bosnia had achieved its independence before that, were the

19 insignia and the emblems changed in Ljubija and Prijedor?

20 A. No, not at that time, not yet.

21 Q. Do you remember perhaps that on the Municipal Assembly building in

22 Prijedor two flags were hoisted? One was the flag of the Socialist

23 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the flag of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. What were the state emblems before the time which you indicate was

1 the time of takeover?

2 A. State emblems. I don't remember.

3 Q. After the takeover, you said numerous checkpoints were set up on

4 roads in the area of Prijedor. If you went from Prijedor to Ljubija,

5 could you perhaps remember how many checkpoints there were and by whom

6 they were manned? Roughly. I know a lot of time has gone by, but could

7 you tell us roughly?

8 A. The exit from my village, before the takeover of power in

9 Prijedor, at the exit from my village there was still the police unit and

10 the civilians of the local commune of Ljubija, that is, mostly Muslims.

11 The next village of Ljeskari had a Serbian a checkpoint. In Dubocaj there

12 was a Serbian checkpoint, and that was the hometown of Jovo Radocaj.

13 Around Hambarine or at Hambarine - I didn't pass along at the time, I just

14 heard about it - somewhere near Hambarine was a checkpoint manned by

15 locals, the same with Rizvanovici. At Tukovi, on the bridge across the

16 Sana River, near the Ribar Hotel, was a Serbian checkpoint, and further

17 along in town, I don't know.

18 Q. The locals of Hambarine and Rizvanovici were mostly Muslims; isn't

19 that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did those people at those checkpoints, for instance in

22 Hambarine - let's not take your village - what did they have in terms of

23 weapons?

24 A. How would I know? I wasn't there, sir.

25 Q. Let's talk then about the checkpoint in your village. What kind

1 of weapons were there?

2 A. The policemen had handguns. Some of them had automatic rifles,

3 and locals had mainly hunting rifles, if anything.

4 Q. Were there any weapons which could have been used to destroy a

5 tank, for instance?

6 A. Not that I remember.

7 Q. You mentioned a moment ago this incident at Hambarine. The two

8 Milojica brothers were involved from Ljubija and another two men whom you

9 don't know.

10 A. Yes. I didn't say that. I just repeated it.

11 Q. Do you know who the other two men were who were with them?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Is it true that those four men were coming from Prijedor towards

14 Ljubija?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it true that is the usual road which the people living in

17 Ljubija take when they have some business in Prijedor?

18 A. Yes, but not in a civilian vehicle carrying weapons.

19 Q. Please answer my questions.

20 A. I did answer your question.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, we are approaching the time for the

22 break.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. With your leave,

24 I suggest we break here and continue when you decide.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness I, we're going to take a break now.

1 We'll resume at 2.30. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your

2 evidence with anybody, including the members of the Prosecution team.

3 We are adjourned.

4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry. Mr. Mundis.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour, if I could just briefly request

6 leave of the Trial Chamber to depart the courtroom at 3.30 whether or not

7 the witness is finished. I have an exigent medical appointment.

8 Mr. Ryneveld will continue with this witness in the event the

9 cross-examination is not completed by 3.30.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Certainly, yes.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Today, you mentioned on several occasions the chief of the Ljubija

14 police station, Bjekic. Is it true that Bjekic helped to compile lists of

15 people to be taken away?

16 A. I believe that it was so.

17 Q. You said that Bjekic was commander only on paper?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What does that mean to be a commander only on paper?

20 A. That means that he did not have executive power. He was only

21 formally a commander in order to mask the real situation to the

22 population, and the real commander was Savo Pusac.

23 Q. But officially, he featured -- he figured as a police commander?

24 A. You said it yourself, he only figured as one.

25 Q. Is that correct? He had no real authority.

1 A. No.

2 Q. On several occasions, you mentioned the reserve police officers

3 and active duty police officers. Could you please explain to the Trial

4 Chamber what the difference was, if you know?

5 A. Active duty policemen were professional policemen who were being

6 paid salaries. And the reserve policemen was something similar to the

7 army reserve force. So it was a reserve sector or segment of the force.

8 Q. In other words, they received no remuneration if they were similar

9 to soldiers; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did they differ by the scope of duty that they have?

12 A. They were assistants to the active police officers.

13 Q. Let's say in patrol duties, was it always that there was one

14 active duty police officer and one reserve police officer?

15 A. For the most part, it was two active duty police officers and one

16 reserve officer.

17 Q. And did the active and reserve police officers differ in the

18 training that they received?

19 A. Of course.

20 Q. You mentioned that when that armed gang -- perhaps that is the

21 closest way to describe who and what those people were -- that among those

22 gang were the two Banovic brothers?

23 A. This is what I heard later.

24 Q. Can you tell us from whom you heard this?

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1 camp of Keraterm.

2 Q. Were there several such uncontrolled, undisciplined groups who

3 were roaming around Prijedor?

4 A. Yes, sir. One belonged to Arkan. They were the Arkan's men. One

5 group was Seselj's men. Then there was this -- part of them were the JNA,

6 the active duty. Then there was the Serb police, then the Serb reserve

7 police.

8 Q. From what you know, did somebody have control over these Arkan's

9 men, Seselj's men, or did they present the authority there?

10 A. I guess somebody from Prijedor, somebody from SDS, somebody from

11 the authorities had control over them.

12 Q. If you know, can you tell us what the Green Berets were?

13 A. These are hats that are green in colour.

14 Q. I think it's pretty clear to you that this is not what -- what the

15 question was. The question was, a military organisation or formation or

16 something similar that went under the name of Green Beret.

17 A. First question you asked was what kind of -- what were Green

18 Berets.

19 Q. Did I now clarify the question a little bit for you?

20 A. Yes, now it's a bit clearer. I heard about that word, but that

21 organisation was unknown to me.

22 Q. When you were last arrested before you were taken to Keraterm, you

23 were not questioned at that time; is that correct?

24 A. No, I was.

25 Q. If I recall correctly, when asked by my learned friend, you said

1 that -- you said nothing at that time and nobody asked you anything.

2 A. From what I remember, the question was not framed that way, the

3 way you just did.

4 Q. Is it correct that on that occasion when you were going from the

5 Ljubija police station, that you were told that you would be going to

6 Omarska?

7 A. Yes. Mr. Savo Pusac, who at that time was the police commander in

8 my village, said verbatim, "You should all be killed, you Muslim vermin,

9 and you will start singing to me at Keraterm."

10 Q. Did you at that time have any knowledge at all that there was

11 something at Keraterm?

12 A. Yes. We had already heard that there were camps at Keraterm and

13 Omarska.

14 Q. Now, tell me, you were placed in Room 4. Can you just very

15 briefly describe that room for us? First of all, what did the door look

16 like?

17 A. The door was metal, red in colour, a double door. One side could

18 open, the other not. And then there was something like a window that was

19 above the height of 2.2 metres.

20 Q. Approximately how long was that metal part of the door tall?

21 A. 2.15 to 2.20, somewhere around there.

22 Q. Does that mean that if a person would stand by the door, they

23 could not see what was going on outside?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was there any way for a person, provided the door was closed, that

1 a person could see what was going on outside in front of that area, the

2 area in front?

3 A. No.

4 Q. My next question to you is about the evening when Drago Tokmadzic

5 was beaten and killed. Drago Tokmadzic was called out around 11.00,

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Ziga, Duca had entered Keraterm right before then?

9 A. I don't know who entered Keraterm.

10 Q. Had you heard that somebody had entered Keraterm, if you didn't

11 see that?

12 A. Yes. The prisoners who had been there before I arrived, they said

13 that Ziga -- that Ziga and Duca were coming to beat up prisoners.

14 Q. How did they arrive?

15 A. In some kind of vehicle which had a very loud noise. It was too

16 loud for regular traffic.

17 Q. Is it correct that one of them called out Drago Tokmadzic to come

18 out?

19 A. One from that group which arrived in this vehicle called out

20 Mr. Tokmadzic.

21 Q. In the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor, to the OTP in

22 1994, you said that you did not know whose shift that was; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Is it correct that that night, those of you who were in Room 4

1 could not see any -- anything of what was going on, you could just hear

2 noises of what was going on outside?

3 A. That is what I have already said.

4 Q. I would just like you to confirm if this is correct, if we agree

5 on this.

6 A. Correct.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can I just ask for us to go into

8 the private session for a moment, please.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

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17 [Open session]

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Another question relating to that incident. In the statement

20 given to the OTP in 1994, you mentioned that the guards who came for those

21 four men that were to carry in those two who were beaten up were carrying

22 flashlights. And then in Omarska, you were talking, for the first time,

23 about men with masks and wearing leather gloves. What is true of those

24 two things?

25 A. Those are two separate incidents.

1 Q. Let me read this to you. "Men in the rooms scattered to all four

2 sides. They just grabbed the nearest four men. The guards had

3 flashlights. Four men were brought out to carry them back in." This is

4 what you said.

5 A. Thank you for refreshing my memory.

6 Q. Just a moment, please. This is what you said in your statement.

7 And in the transcript of the Omarska trial, you said: "Then, the men

8 wearing masks and leather gloves entered the room, took four men who were

9 near the entrance, and took them out."

10 There may be a mere misunderstanding. Would you please clarify

11 these discrepancies?

12 A. In my opinion, in both cases, it is the same incident but perhaps

13 described differently. It was one thing to give a statement in 1994 and

14 another thing to remember all of the details six years later.

15 Q. Let me also refresh your memory about something you stated in 1994

16 and you did not mentioned to before this Trial Chamber. You mentioned an

17 incident that happened on the seventh or eighth night after your arrival

18 at Keraterm. Again some people entered the camp and started looking for a

19 man.

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours. I just

21 need a private session for this one question, so can we go to the private

22 session just for that?

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18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. In Omarska did you recognise any of the active-duty policemen who

20 worked on securing the people detained?

21 A. Yes. I recognised Radic, nicknamed Krkan.

22 Q. Did he used to work in Ljubija?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It was hard, although it's not the right word, both in Keraterm

25 and in Omarska, but if you could try to tell the difference between your

1 experiences in both camps.

2 A. You got it right. It was hard, more than hard. The difference

3 between Keraterm and Omarska was the following: In Keraterm, for the

4 first time I came face-to-face with something which I thought was

5 unthinkable, undoable to people, and my reaction was extreme fear. At the

6 moment when we set off to Omarska from Keraterm, and we had heard that

7 Omarska was even worse, this fear somehow disappeared, dissipated, because

8 I thought we wouldn't survive, and Keraterm and Omarska were not much

9 different.

10 Q. And my last question, you said several times today who could

11 consider whom a traitor and why. You also said that somebody argued with

12 this Zigic and Duca and that after that they stopped this bloody

13 revelling. Do you think that in the eyes of those who were committing

14 this, Zigic and Duca, the person who interrupted it, stopped it, also

15 looked like a traitor?

16 A. I cannot answer that question.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

18 questions. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

20 Mr. Vucicevic.

21 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic:

23 Q. Witness I, you have testified before the Prosecutor and actually

24 given a statement on 12th of this -- 8/12/1994, and at that time, have you

25 signed that statement?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Before signing the statement, the statement was read to you or you

3 have read the whole statement, haven't you?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. But it's your testimony today whatever you indicated in that

6 statement was true and correct to the best of your knowledge?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. However, when you testified just a few minutes ago, when the

9 colleague Petrovic asked you a question, you basically said this and I

10 will cite your own word in Bosnian, [Interpretation] "That was in 1994 and

11 it's a completely different case today," that's what you said.

12 A. It's been six years since that day. Am I supposed to remember it

13 the same way even in my dying day?

14 Q. [In English] Perhaps that answer to that one is for the Lord when

15 we go to the final judgement, but today we are before this Court and we

16 are supposed to tell the truth; isn't that true?

17 A. God willing, we will come to face God one day.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd like both counsel and the witness to

19 terminate this cross-talk. Please direct a specific question on the

20 evidence.

21 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

22 Q. In the statement of 1994, you said the following: "In Prijedor

23 district I heard about an incident which occurred about January or

24 February of 1992 and involved a Serb reservist who killed two or three

25 people including a woman." Didn't you say that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And that was a statement that you made two years after you heard

3 about that incident.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Isn't it true and correct that this incident didn't happen in

6 January and February but happened on 1st, 2nd or 3rd of May 1992; isn't

7 that correct?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. How did you hear about this accident in 1992?

10 A. That was broadcast over Radio Prijedor.

11 Q. And indeed, you have also testified that you have listened to

12 Radio Prijedor in your testimony earlier today. And I am just going to

13 refer here to your text and cite you directly.

14 This was the question and I am reading from the record: "This

15 attack was mounted by Yugoslav military unit by the army against the

16 civilian staff which then manned this relay and they took them over."

17 That was your answer. The question followed, "I'll read out to you words

18 from your own statement. You say something entirely different, '... heard

19 on the Radio Prijedor that a group of armed people attempted to capture

20 the relay but this attempt was thwarted by the JNA which is now protecting

21 that relay.'"

22 You heard that on Radio Prijedor, didn't you? Did you say that

23 and did you --

24 A. Yes, but it was already the Serbian Radio Prijedor.

25 Q. For this line of questioning, it really doesn't matter whom did it

1 belong to, but you heard it on Radio Prijedor.

2 A. It is very important to whom it belonged. The Serbian Radio

3 Prijedor clearly announced themselves during broadcasts. It's a huge

4 difference.

5 Q. And then there was another question and your answer was this:

6 "That was broadcast by Radio Prijedor just as all the other lies." My

7 question to you is: Haven't you made at least three statements, three

8 sworn statements that you were listening to Radio Prijedor in April and

9 May of 1992?

10 A. Yes, but it was by then already the Serbian Radio Prijedor.

11 Q. Now, I will bring you to a very sad and tragic event when your

12 wife --

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry, there is some feedback

14 here, and I'm asked to use another microphone and I wouldn't mind.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please. Yes, please use another

16 microphone.

17 MR. VUCICEVIC:

18 Q. I apologise, but I have to bring you to the very sad and tragic

19 event when you lost the child. You have testified, "In 1994, my wife was

20 seven months pregnant and that was -- and I was -- and was terrified by

21 the shooting." Meaning she was terrified by the shooting. "She had pains

22 and her water broke. There were still buses running to Prijedor so she

23 went to the hospital in Prijedor." Didn't you say that? Because you

24 swore to that statement.

25 However, testifying today before the Court, you indicated that an

1 ambulance came to your home to pick up your wife; isn't that correct?

2 Those are two different statements, aren't they?

3 A. I apologise. My first statement is correct. She took a bus.

4 Q. I will have to refer you to your previous statement right from the

5 record, if I may.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic.

7 MR. VUCICEVIC:

8 Q. I will remind you that was page 64 in the transcript, and you

9 clearly said that was an ambulance.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, he's -- he's now saying that his

11 first statement was correct was that she took a bus. So he is now

12 acknowledging that his first statement is correct and the second one is

13 not correct.

14 What do you have to ask following that? That's his explanation.

15 MR. VUCICEVIC:

16 Q. Is there a difference between a bus and ambulance, sir?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not the point. You have put to him an

18 inconsistency and he has acknowledged it. He's saying that his first

19 statement is the correct one.

20 I think it's now a matter for the Chamber to assess the evidence.

21 The point has been exhausted. Please move on.

22 MR. VUCICEVIC:

23 Q. Sir, you also testified that your wife was taken to Prijedor

24 hospital and that she stayed there seven days, didn't you?

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1 Q. You also testified that nothing was done to help her there.

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And that was at the time where the military activities were taking

4 place in Hambarine and in Kozarac, because this must be true because you

5 also testified that your wife was taken later on through Kozarac to Banja

6 Luka; isn't that correct?

7 A. That is true, sir.

8 Q. And by being in the hospital, your wife was given a bed, wasn't

9 she?

10 A. Yes. If she hadn't received a bed, then what else would she have

11 got?

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

13 A. Sir, first of all --

14 Q. Answer "Yes," "No," or, "I don't know."

15 A. Hospitals are duty-bound to provide patients with beds for those

16 who have been admitted.

17 Q. But, sir, if we could agree that the first step upon the patient

18 coming to the hospital if she needs a hospitalisation, is to give her a

19 hospital bed. We can agree on that simple proposition?

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. And then what the doctors do at the hospital is subject matter for

22 the doctors to decide or perhaps you claim some additional knowledge about

23 it?

24 A. I think -- I believe the doctors take an oath upon graduation,

25 swearing that they will help all patients, treating all sorts of disease,

1 and do their utmost to save a person's life.

2 Q. Doctors, all doctors who were present on the staff in that

3 hospital, including Serb, Muslims, and Croats in Prijedor that did

4 intentionally refuse to give any medical attention to your wife; is that

5 your statement?

6 A. Sir, at that moment, Muslim and Croat doctors and nurses had

7 already been dismissed from the hospital named Mladen Stojanovic in

8 Prijedor. Only the Serbian staff was on duty.

9 Q. We had a witness here who had testified that he was taken to the

10 hospital, and the only evidence that was -- and on the documents, medical

11 documents that were admitted, there was the name of Dr. Resic. Isn't it

12 true that Dr. Resic is a Muslim?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Isn't it correct there were two doctors Resic in Prijedor, both

15 practising at Prijedor hospital, both Muslims?

16 A. Resic. I don't know who worked at the hospital at the time.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that two doctors by the

18 name -- last name Resic, R-e-s-i-c, were working at Prijedor hospital at

19 the time? You don't deny it?

20 A. Before the war, there were two brothers, two Dr. Resics working

21 there.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... when your wife was there, do

23 you? You're not sure about it?

24 A. Of course I'm not sure.

25 Q. Do you know that seven-month pregnancy is a condition, a medical

1 condition, that cannot be taken at every hospital, do you?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. You have testified today and said when the child was born, the

4 doctors in Banja Luka refused to put the child in an incubator. That

5 presumed that you do know about incubators, don't you?

6 A. Of course I know about incubators.

7 Q. Are you aware whether or not Prijedor hospital had a new-born unit

8 with incubators or had any incubators whatsoever?

9 A. I wasn't aware of that, but the child was born in Banja Luka where

10 they had incubators.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, what are you trying to establish

12 by this line of cross-examination?

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I will be happy to disclose my aim of

14 my cross-examination if the witness is removed and so I can respond to the

15 judicial objection, but if you would allow me, I would connect within the

16 next two or three minutes.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You must demonstrate the relevance of the line in

18 your next question.

19 MR. VUCICEVIC: You have stated that the doctors in Banja Luka

20 deliberately allowed your son to die; isn't that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. While you were listening to Radio Prijedor continuously, have you

23 ever heard there were frequent reports that 12 babies in Banja Luka

24 maternity ward have died because there was a lack of oxygen which couldn't

25 be brought in because Krajina was encircled? You've heard all other

1 propaganda. Let's say it was propaganda, but did you hear it?

2 A. Sir, I wasn't sitting by my radio all the time.

3 Q. If I were to tell you that one of the Ministers of Republika

4 Srpska was asking for a special permission to transport oxygen from

5 Belgrade by air, which was available there, and asked the help from the

6 United Nations armed forces to arrange it, would that somehow alleviate

7 your bitterness, because at least they were helping -- they were trying to

8 help all the babies?

9 A. If it hadn't been for the Serbian aggression against the Republic

10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, my wife would have carried until the ninth month

11 and given normal birth to her child, just as she did with the previous

12 child.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... what happened in that war,

14 but that is not the issue for this Court today. The issue is your

15 testimony that you have deliberately accused --

16 A. But that is the cause of death of my child.

17 Q. You are changing your testimony. It is not the act of the doctors

18 that caused the death of your child but just occurrence of the war was to

19 blame for the death of your child. You have a simple question. You can

20 choose. Either it's the doctors or it's the war in general.

21 A. Was it a question?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question is whether it is the act of the

23 doctors that caused the death of your child or the occurrence of the war.

24 A. The overall situation, but the war didn't break out of its own

25 accord. It was a result of the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: That was your question, Mr. Vucicevic.

2 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, thank you so much.

3 Q. But we can certainly agree that it wasn't the doctors from Banja

4 Luka hospital that treated your wife that was responsible for the outbreak

5 of war, are they?

6 A. Maybe you'll say next that I'm responsible for the war.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, I am not allowing any more

8 questions along this line. Please move to another topic.

9 MR. VUCICEVIC:

10 Q. Perhaps your last answer had given me an idea to ask you one more

11 question. When you were testifying before the OTP Prosecutors, Ms. Hollis

12 in particular, in 1994, and you were describing what was said by Banovic

13 to Jovo Radocaj, you stated this, "You are a Serb and a member of SDA. We

14 should skin you down like a lamb for a feast of Bajram."

15 Isn't it a --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and you know respected and

18 very faithful occurrence that the Muslims for Bajram had a lamb, and Serbs

19 for Easter also have a lamb. That was the time proven tradition and

20 religious -- part of the religious ceremonies that we practice in our

21 homes. We can agree on that one, could we?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And lambs in Balkan and all over the place is skinned down, isn't

24 it, in order to be prepared? You said that, didn't you?

25 A. Yes. You skin them, but you don't pour boiling water over them as

1 you do over pigs.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Will counsel please stop speaking at the same

3 time as the interpreters.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, the interpreters are having

5 problems with you because you are overlapping with the witness.

6 MR. VUCICEVIC:

7 Q. However, when you testified today, you said that the boiled water

8 should be spilled over the lamb in order to prepare it. You were implying

9 basically that somebody was trying to mention -- that a Serb tried to

10 mention that a pig should be prepared for Bajram, and you are saying that

11 after nine years. That's sacrilegious. That's disrespectful. And

12 perhaps you should think about why so many things have caused the things

13 that we are hearing today. Thank you.

14 A. I apologise. That is not true. I never mentioned boiling

15 waters. I said, "Skinning like a lamb on occasion of Bajram."

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, any re-examination.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: No, thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness I, that concludes your testimony and you

19 may now go.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank the Honorable Court.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 MR. RYNEVELD: May I just say, Your Honour, that our next witness,

23 there are protective measures which have been given to this witness that

24 she testify in closed session. She has testified in closed session in

25 previous proceedings, and the order issued by this Court, to my

1 understanding, is that this witness has also been given identical

2 protective measures. She is the first of two back-to-back witnesses who

3 have received, from this Chamber, my understanding is, the right to

4 testify in closed session.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You say that's your understanding, Mr. Ryneveld.

6 Is that something that we should investigate?

7 MR. RYNEVELD: No. Our documents indicate that we've made the

8 application, and we have been granted the application that this witness

9 testify in closed session as she did in the Omarska trials.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will just consult with the senior legal

11 officer.

12 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, before the next witness is brought

14 in, if I could, just for 30 seconds, bring up a technical point that's not

15 related to today's hearing.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, very quickly.

17 MR. VUCICEVIC: In private session.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.

19 [Private session]

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12 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

14 [The witness entered court]

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4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.00 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day

6 of April, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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