Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2637

 1                          Wednesday, 2 May 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5            JUDGE ROBINSON:  This morning, we'll commence with two decisions

 6    by the Chamber.

 7            Yesterday, we heard an application from Sir Ivan Lawrence, seeking

 8    an adjournment of four weeks to allow him to be fully briefed and prepare

 9    to represent the accused Kolundzija.  Sir Ivan informed the Chamber that

10    he had been asked by Mr. Kolundzija to take over his case from

11    Mr. Vucicevic who had previously represented him in the four weeks that

12    the trial had so far lasted.

13            The Chamber cannot pretend to be unaware of the procedures that

14    were being followed for the change in Mr. Kolundzija's representation.

15    During the Easter break, the Chamber was notified by letter of a breakdown

16    in trust between the accused Kolundzija and his counsel, Mr. Vucicevic,

17    and of Kolundzija's request to be assigned new counsel.  It is against

18    that background that Sir Ivan now appears.

19            In Court yesterday was Mr. Ostojic, who is the assigned co-counsel

20    for Mr. Kolundzija, though it must be observed that he has been present --

21    that he has not been present during the previous four weeks of the trial.

22    Sir Ivan was involved in the representation of Mr. Kolundzija at an

23    earlier stage, prior to the commencement of trial.

24            In arriving at the decision in this matter, the Chamber's had to

25    take into account the right of the accused Kolundzija to a fair trial, but

Page 2638

 1    it has also had to have regard to its statutory obligation to ensure an

 2    expeditious trial.

 3            From the very outset of the trial, the Chamber expressed the need

 4    to proceed as expeditiously as is fair in the circumstances, in the light

 5    of the deadline for the trial to be completed by mid-November, which

 6    effectively meant that the taking of evidence would have to be completed

 7    by mid-October.  Accordingly, a timetable was set, the first part of which

 8    calls for the Prosecution to close its case by Friday, the 1st of June.

 9            The Chamber has determined that its obligation to ensure a fair

10    and expeditious trial would not be discharged by an adjournment of four

11    weeks which, if granted, would consume the remaining period assigned for

12    the completion of the Prosecution case.  Instead, the Chamber will grant

13    an adjournment commencing Friday, the 4th of May, and ending Tuesday, the

14    15th.  This is a period of 12 days, just under a fortnight, which leaves

15    us with about 13 days to complete the evidence of about 13 Prosecution

16    witnesses.  Though the period granted is shorter than what has been

17    requested, the Chamber considers it to be adequate in the circumstances,

18    given the relatively familiarity both Sir Ivan and Mr. Ostojic have in the

19    case.

20            In considering the application, the Chamber has also examined the

21    possibility offered by the rules to order a separate trial.  While it is

22    not necessary to adopt this procedure at this stage, it obviously remains

23    one that is open to the Chamber whenever it determines that the interests

24    of justice so require.  The trial will continue with the testimony of the

25    three remaining witnesses for this week.

Page 2639

 1            The second decision is in relation to the application by the

 2    Prosecution to admit the transcripts in relation to six witnesses.  First,

 3    in relation to Edward Vulliamy.  We admit the transcript from the

 4    Kovacevic trial.  Cross-examination will be confined to the accused

 5    Sikirica in relation to facts going to proof of genocide and the requisite

 6    intent.

 7            Osman Selak, we admit the transcript from the Tadic trial.  No

 8    cross-examination will be allowed.

 9            (redacted), we admit the transcript from the Tadic trial and the

10    Kvocka trial.  Cross-examination will be confined to the accused Sikirica

11    as to the conditions in the Trnopolje camp, including the incidents of

12    rape.

13            Emsud Garibovic, we admit the transcript from the Kvocka trial.

14    No cross-examination will be allowed.

15            Dr. Hanne Greve, we admit the transcript from the Tadic and

16    Kovacevic trials.  No cross-examination allowed.

17            And finally, Mevludin Sejmenovic.  The transcripts from the Tadic

18    and the Kovacevic trials are allowed and a cross-examination will be

19    allowed for all three accused.

20            I should say that exhibits that are unsealed and which relate to

21    the parts of the admitted transcripts will also be admitted.  A written

22    decision follows.

23            We continue with the -- Mr. Ryneveld, we were with your witness.

24            MR. RYNEVELD:  We were, and cross-examination.  I see my friend on

25    his feet, and before he speaks, may I just ask:  It's probably my


Page 2640

 1    listening skills, but did you say that the adjournment ends Tuesday, May

 2    15?  Does that mean we start on the 15th or does that mean we start on the

 3    16th?

 4            JUDGE ROBINSON:  We start on Wednesday, the 16th.

 5            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you.  Thank you for clarification.

 6            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Sir Ivan.

 7            MR. LAWRENCE:  I was not, sadly, able to see Mr. Kolundzija last

 8    night in prison.  I'm afraid there must have been a misunderstanding and

 9    it wasn't possible for the prison authorities to arrange a visit, and

10    therefore I have not been able to take instructions for cross-examining

11    Mr. Zubovic and would ask the Court if they would give me time, say an

12    hour or something like that, this morning in order to prepare myself.

13            On the Court's ruling for my application for four weeks, I accept

14    that it is maybe possible for me to complete, with my learned junior

15    Mr. Ostojic, the work that is required of us in two weeks, and we will

16    make every effort to see that that happens.  However, I am not in a

17    position to cross-examine the other witnesses who are here, and it's not

18    just a matter of getting instructions from Mr. Kolundzija; it's also a

19    matter of knowing what has gone before.  I must know what's gone before as

20    these witnesses come forward and require to be cross-examined.  I must

21    know what questions it is not necessary to ask them.  I must know what

22    questions it has become necessary to ask them.  And it's simply impossible

23    for me to do my duty to my client in dealing with these witnesses in

24    cross-examination if I do not have that opportunity before I rise to my

25    feet to do so, to put myself in knowledge of what has happened.

Page 2641

 1            I did attempt, and no doubt failed because I didn't do it well

 2    enough yesterday, to alert the Court to the fact that whilst I was, of

 3    course, prepared to take instructions on Mr. Zubovic, rather than have the

 4    witness who had already nearly completed his evidence to have to come back

 5    again from Norway, but I can't do it and fulfil the duty which a British

 6    barrister has to his client to cross-examine the others unless I know what

 7    has happened so far.  With the best will in the world, I'm most anxious to

 8    do all I can to make sure that the pressures upon the Court are met with

 9    as much good grace and help as can be done by myself and Mr. Ostojic for

10    our client, but I have a duty to my client.

11            JUDGE ROBINSON:  I wonder, Sir Ivan, if account is taken of the

12    fact that you -- on the list I think you are the last counsel who

13    cross-examines, and whether that could afford you more time in

14    preparation.  There is a co-counsel who might be present in Court,

15    allowing you or freeing you to carry out some consultations.  I know it is

16    not a perfect solution, but in this system we have to struggle very hard

17    and we have to be very, very pragmatic.  I've had to adjust and refine

18    many of the standards that I brought here from the jurisdiction out of

19    which I come, and adjustments have to be made.  Is there any possibility?

20    Because you will have heard the Prosecution allude to one witness who has

21    been here twice.  The witness was here last week.  We had no court, so the

22    witness had to return.  The witness is here again this week.  And there is

23    understandable anxiety as to whether that witness will turn up again if we

24    are not in a position to take his testimony this week.

25            MR. LAWRENCE:  Well, I'm afraid I can't shift from the point that

Page 2642

 1    I was making and do justice to my client.  Mr. Ostojic hasn't been here

 2    any longer than I have.  He was here yesterday morning when I wasn't, but

 3    that was the first time I think he had appeared in Court, so --

 4            JUDGE MAY:  He was co-counsel.  He probably should have been, as a

 5    matter of fact.  But let that pass.

 6            MR. LAWRENCE:  But he wasn't instructed as such, whatever the

 7    situation may be, and the reality, the fact of the matter is that he is no

 8    more able than I am to deal with these points.  I mean, it may be that the

 9    Court would think it appropriate to take the witnesses and deal with them

10    up until my cross-examination.  Perhaps one possibility is that if I need

11    them brought back on the 16th of May, they could come back for my final

12    cross-examination then.  But I'm afraid, with the best will in the world,

13    I can't be parachuted back into the trial and put in a position where I

14    cannot fulfil my duty to my client.  I will do my best.  The Court knows

15    that I will do my best.

16            JUDGE MAY:  Why not see how it goes.  One suggestion is that you

17    take instructions -- or one possibility is you take instructions while

18    Mr. Rodic finishes his cross-examination.  Mr. Ostojic can stay here,

19    thereby we don't waste any time.  The other possibility is that you do

20    what you can with the two remaining witnesses.  Remember, it's only two,

21    if I've counted right.  And if it becomes necessary to have them back,

22    then of course we would have to consider that, but you could do your

23    best.

24            MR. LAWRENCE: Certainly, I will.

25                          [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2643

 1            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ryneveld, yes.

 2            MR. RYNEVELD:  Just a matter for clarification.  We do potentially

 3    have three witnesses scheduled for this week, one of whom is in hospital,

 4    but if he is available, he would be the third.  I'm simply saying there's

 5    two definite, but the third may well be available by tomorrow.

 6            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Yes.

 7                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 8            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Sir Ivan, this is what the Chamber has decided:

 9    In respect of your application, it's effectively an application to be

10    allowed an hour to take instructions.  Yes, you can take instructions,

11    Mr. Ostojic should remain in court.  You can take instructions from

12    Mr. Kolundzija who would be allowed to leave the court for the time

13    being.  Mr. Rodic will continue his cross-examination, and at the end of

14    that cross-examination, you would return.  You would be allowed the hour

15    for -- to get your instructions.

16            In respect of your preparation for the other two or three

17    Prosecution witnesses for this week, the same procedure would apply, that

18    Mr. Ostojic, the co-counsel, would be in court.  You would -- that would

19    free you up to take whatever instructions you need, but we also take

20    account of the possibility that, if necessary, the witnesses may have to

21    be recalled for you to cross-examine on the 16th.  But we are certainly

22    not inviting you to see that as the first resort, the first course.  That

23    really is the last resort and we would expect you to do your best.

24            MR. LAWRENCE: Will the Court hear me on that?  I will, of course,

25    do my best, and I will bear in mind every constraint there is that we must

Page 2644

 1    come to a conclusion in this matter by the dates that have been set.

 2    Nevertheless, with the greatest of respect to the Court, two things.

 3            Firstly, I must be entitled, on behalf of Kolundzija, to hear the

 4    cross-examination of Mr. Rodic and consider to what extent it is necessary

 5    for me to pick up any point that he makes or challenge any point that has

 6    emerged from Zubovic or any of the other witnesses' evidence.  And in my

 7    respectful submission, it might be prejudicial to the interests of my

 8    client and against my duty if I am not in court to hear what

 9    cross-examination takes place and what answers are given to witnesses who

10    directly affect my client; one.

11            Two, Mr. Ostojic is needed, in my respectful submission, in

12    conferences with me.  Firstly, I need his opinion and his advice.

13    Secondly, he is a Serb speaker and can therefore converse with Kolundzija

14    in a way that I simply cannot do and, in my respectful submission again,

15    the Defence of Kolundzija might be prejudiced if I am just allowed to go

16    and speak to Kolundzija with an interpreter, who may or may not be

17    available, and I have no idea what has happened in my absence.

18            In my respectful submission, my concern at this moment must be the

19    proper representation of my client.  It must be to avoid any kind of

20    prejudice that might arise against him, and I would earnestly request the

21    Court to reconsider the decision that has just been made about that

22    particular detail.

23            I do undertake to the Court to do the best I can in the

24    circumstances to comply with all of the requirements and restraints, but

25    at the end of the day, although I have the strongest possible duty to the

Page 2645













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Page 2646

 1    Court, I have also a very strong duty to my client, and I cannot

 2    compromise it.

 3                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 4            JUDGE ROBINSON:  We will continue with cross-examination by

 5    Mr. Rodic, and then we will break for 45 minutes to allow Sir Ivan and

 6    Mr. Ostojic to take their instructions.

 7            MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you.

 8            MR. RYNEVELD:  We don't have an usher, I don't think -- oh, there

 9    he is, sorry.  Mr. Zubovic.

10                          [The witness takes the stand]

11            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Rodic.

12            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13                          WITNESS:  HAJRUDIN ZUBOVIC [Resumed]

14                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                          Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic [Continued]

16       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Zubovic.

17       A.   Good morning.

18       Q.   I have some more questions to ask you and -- but I do not think it

19    will take long to finish this cross-examination.  Could you tell me,

20    please - and this has to do with your stay in Keraterm - did you, and how

21    often did you move around the Keraterm compound?  I mean, in front of the

22    rooms and around.

23       A.   In front of Rooms 1 and 2, there was a fire hose and it more or

24    less marked the line, the limit, the boundary for us who were in Rooms 1

25    and 2.  In front of Rooms 3 and 4, the area available was just as far as

Page 2647

 1    the lawn, as the grassy area in front of them.

 2       Q.   So you could move around a certain area in front of Rooms 1, 2, 3,

 3    and 4; is that correct?

 4       A.   Yes, it is.

 5       Q.   And when you did move around, would you see guards of the shift

 6    that would be on at that time, and how many guards were there in

 7    Keraterm?  How many guards would there be securing the Keraterm?

 8       A.   I cannot really tell you how many guards were on a shift.

 9       Q.   You said that you served the army in 1983, 1984; is that correct?

10       A.   Yes, it is.

11       Q.   Could you tell me something more specific, that is, which branch

12    of the army, which kind of training did you undergo there?

13       A.   I was in the mountaineering infantry, the reconnaissance platoon.

14       Q.   The guards who provided security in Keraterm, did they have any

15    assigned guard posts, I mean fixed places where they would have to stand

16    watch, or were there no assigned spots, that is, whether the guards moved

17    freely around?

18       A.   As I said yesterday, the gate at the entrance next to the gate,

19    then the hut next to the weigh bridge.  I also mentioned the kiosk to the

20    right of dormitory one, and what one could call the machine-gun nests

21    there.  Those were more or less the places where the guards spent most of

22    the time.

23       Q.   You listed three places, but I assume that there were more guards

24    than that.

25       A.   Those places, those locations looked organised for the guards,

Page 2648

 1    that is, there was a guard at each one of these locations.

 2       Q.   And tell us, what did the guards wear?  Were they all uniformly

 3    dressed, did they all have identical uniforms or --

 4       A.   No, not all of them.  Some had olive-green/grey uniforms, some had

 5    camouflage, some had a combination of the two, and there were also guards

 6    in blue uniforms, that is, the reserve police at the time.

 7       Q.   And after you served in the army, were you a member of any reserve

 8    unit?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Tell me if in the -- did you see any members of the military

11    police in the compound at Keraterm?

12       A.   If you mean soldiers with white belts, if those are the ones that

13    you mean, then yes.  Those with white belts, not with white

14    uniforms - white belts - then the answer is yes.

15       Q.   Would they be in Keraterm often?

16       A.   Just as often as all the others.  Nothing special.

17       Q.   And do you know that on the other side of these premises behind

18    the places where the prisoners were detained there were the headquarters

19    of the military police?

20       A.   No, I did not know that.

21       Q.   And across the street from Keraterm, that is, across the road

22    Prijedor-Banja Luka-Kozara-Putari, which has been destroyed, was somebody

23    there?

24       A.   As far as I can remember, as far as I can remember, there was

25    something of a similar nature, something like a warehouse or a factory,

Page 2649

 1    but I don't know what kind of ware it made; and yes, there were some

 2    military vehicles in front of it.

 3       Q.   Tell me:  Insofar as the water supply is concerned or use of

 4    water, access to water in Keraterm whilst you were there, what was the

 5    situation?

 6       A.   We mostly used water that we were getting from the hose, that is,

 7    the hydrant, the fire hose, and during the fortnight that I spent at

 8    Keraterm, a water tank came on several occasions.

 9       Q.   And to conclude, I'd like to ask you the following:  You mentioned

10    how during the incident at Hambarine when at the checkpoint members of

11    White Eagles riding a Golf were wounded or killed.  Could you tell us what

12    else you know about that?

13       A.   People whom we called White Eagles were men wearing uniforms with

14    patches, with insignia bearing a white eagle, and how the White Eagles

15    unit came about, what its name was purported to mean, or anything else, I

16    do not know.

17       Q.   In relation to things that are more or less commonly known, that

18    is, the police, the army, now about White Eagles, but were there any other

19    units like White Eagles in the area of Prijedor, I mean, apart from what

20    one could call regular army or police?

21       A.   I don't quite understand the question.

22       Q.   Apart from the White Eagles, about whom you have heard, have you

23    heard -- or did you hear at that time whether there were any other similar

24    formations like White Orlovi, that is, some other units with some other

25    names which did not come under -- which were not part of the regular

Page 2650

 1    strength of either what was known as JNA or the police?

 2       A.   On the eve of the war, if you walked through -- around Prijedor,

 3    you could see all sorts of uniforms.  In addition to the standard ones of

 4    the JNA, there were also uniforms with new emblems, new patches, new

 5    markings, which were the patches, the emblems, of the Serb people.  As for

 6    some organised group or a unit, I don't know what to say.

 7       Q.   But you were in Prijedor.  You presumably moved around the

 8    municipality.  So would it be correct to say that members of those

 9    military formations had all sorts of insignia and patches on their

10    uniforms, didn't they?

11       A.   Yes.  Well, "many" is a relative term, but in any event, yes,

12    there were different insignia, different markings on their uniforms.

13            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Zubovic, for your

14    answers.

15            Your Honours, I have concluded my cross-examination.  Thank you.

16            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Zubovic, we are going to take a break now of

17    45 minutes, which means that we'll resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.  I remind

18    you, as I did yesterday, that during the break you are not to discuss your

19    evidence with anybody, and that includes members of the Prosecution team.

20    We are adjourned until 5 minutes to 11.00.

21                          --- Recess taken at 10.11 a.m.

22                          --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

23            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Sir Ivan.

24                          Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence:

25       Q.   Mr. Zubovic, I appear for Kole.


Page 2651

 1            You arrived at Keraterm on the 20th of July.

 2       A.   No, on the 19th of July.

 3       Q.   Do you know that Kole left Keraterm on the 25th of July?

 4       A.   No, I have no knowledge of that.

 5       Q.   At any rate, you left Keraterm on the 5th of August.

 6       A.   That's right.

 7       Q.   Though you were only there for 16 or 17 days altogether.

 8       A.   That's right.

 9       Q.   Would it be right to say that you only saw Kole on very few

10    occasions?

11       A.   Yes, that is correct.

12       Q.   And on -- when you made your statement of the 1st of March -- can

13    I just find out about these statements; did you make a statement first on

14    the 14th of December or thereabouts, 1994?

15       A.   I do not remember the exact date.

16       Q.   And then you were asked to make another statement and you made

17    that on the 1st of March 1995.  Does that accord with your recollection?

18       A.   Once again, I do not remember the exact date, but if there is my

19    signature on those statements, then it must be so.

20       Q.   Well, they've been served by the Prosecution and I accept those

21    dates.  And the next time you were interviewed about these matters was

22    when?  After the second interview on the 1st of March 1995, when were you

23    next seen again?  May I suggest 26th of October 2000.

24       A.   The exact date of when I made those statements, I just cannot

25    confirm them.

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Page 2653

 1       Q.   About.  Again on the 6th of March 2001, that's last month, and

 2    again on the 1st of May 2001, no -- yes, 1st of May.

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Do you accept that when you were asked about Kole in your

 5    interview in December 1994, you were trying to remember accurately and

 6    were only telling the truth?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And in that statement, did you say that on the night of the

 9    massacre, Kole's shift was on duty?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   You did not see him that night.

12       A.   I did not.

13       Q.   And you do not know who was involved in the massacre.

14       A.   No, I don't.

15       Q.   And that means that you don't know that Kole was involved in the

16    massacre.

17       A.   No, I don't.

18       Q.   And when you made your next statement on the 1st of March of 1995,

19    you -- do you accept that you did not mention Kole at all in that

20    statement?  Will you accept that from me?

21       A.   I don't know.  Perhaps for some reason this was not included in my

22    statement, but I still stand by what I stated before, namely that it was

23    Kole's shift on duty, but it depends on the questions and what else is in

24    that statement.

25       Q.   I'm really asking you these questions to establish that, apart

Page 2654

 1    from you knowing that it was Kole's shift on the 24th of July, you hardly

 2    saw Kole, and you had nothing particular to do with him, which is why you

 3    don't mention him in statements other than the passages we talked about.

 4    Is that true?

 5       A.   It is.

 6       Q.   And when you were asked about your arrival on the 19th, do you

 7    remember being asked when you -- "When did you see Kole on the camp?"

 8    Yesterday, being asked yesterday?

 9       A.   I do, yes.

10       Q.   And you said that he was next to the window which was open next to

11    the column, and talking to Sikirica?  And then did you correct that and

12    say, "I must admit that I wasn't quite focused in the beginning.  I

13    realise that I made a mistake a moment ago," and went on to explain that

14    it was not Kole; that had been a mistake?  And you confirm -- you nod, but

15    you confirm -- we must have it orally.

16       A.   You did not tell me that I had to answer this.

17       Q.   Well, every question I would like an answer so that it can be

18    recorded, please.  And you've been very good.  You've answered.

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Obviously, when you're asked to remember what happened, some

21    things you can remember clearly, some things you can't really remember,

22    some things are what people told you, and you were in a bad physical

23    state, losing 20 kilos over those few days, and it was an unpleasant

24    experience for you; is that right?

25       A.   That's right.

Page 2655

 1       Q.   So that when you say in one of the interviews that Kole's shift

 2    was the kindest shift, is that your experience or was that what you were

 3    told by others in the camp?  Firstly, let me ask you this:  Was his shift

 4    the kindest shift?

 5       A.   Yes.  Compared with the other two, yes.  But to say "kind" or

 6    "kindest" is not really the proper term.

 7       Q.   Well, will you accept from me that that is the word that you used

 8    in interview with the interviewer?

 9            MR. LAWRENCE:  Page 3 of the summary, Your Honours, paragraph 11.

10       Q.   Do you agree that you said that, used that word, to the

11    interviewers on --

12            JUDGE MAY:  Sir Ivan, it is in inverted commas on the summary.

13            MR. LAWRENCE:  Which means that it's a quote.

14            JUDGE MAY:  Or it means -- it may mean that it's not a totally

15    accurate translation.

16            MR. LAWRENCE:  If you were taking -- with respect, if you were

17    taking a note and you put something in quotes, it would tend to suggest

18    that is the precise word used, but ...

19            Can the Court look also at internal memorandum of the 26th of

20    October, 2000.

21            MR. RYNEVELD:  The Court doesn't have that document.  That is a

22    document that I've put as a source for this material, but only counsel

23    have that.  All the Court gets is the summary.

24            JUDGE MAY:  Perhaps it would be simplest to ask him how he would

25    describe Kole's shift.

Page 2656

 1            MR. LAWRENCE:  Yes.  The trouble is, I think it's by reputation

 2    rather than by his own knowledge, so that's why I haven't asked, but we'll

 3    come to that.

 4       Q.   Will you accept that in an interview on the 26th of October of

 5    last year with Mr. Paul Basham - does that ring a bell, the

 6    investigator - you indicated that Kole's shift was the kindest shift of

 7    the three.  Now --

 8       A.   May I say something?  May I add something to what you are saying

 9    about my statement?

10            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, go ahead.

11       A.   If one compares the three shifts that were there, I mean, it was

12    simply easier to be a detainee in the Keraterm camp during Kole's shift

13    than during the other two.  So this is the comparison.  It was one of

14    the -- it was a kinder or a nicer, a softer shift, but only for the sake

15    of comparison.

16            MR. LAWRENCE:

17       Q.   Kinder, nicer, softer than the other shifts?  All right?  Agree?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   In what way kinder, nicer, softer?  What happened on Kole's shift

20    that makes you say that about it?

21       A.   Well, for instance, if you compare it with Kondic's shift, when

22    the prisoners were by and large forbidden to move in front of the rooms in

23    that area that I described today, when Kole's shift was on duty, it was

24    different.  That did not apply.  And for us who were in the camp, it was a

25    certain comfort that we could come out of the dormitory, get some fresh

Page 2657

 1    air, have some water, go to the lavatory.

 2       Q.   While you were there, did you see people go down to the front gate

 3    and talk to their families who brought them food?

 4       A.   You mean people, you mean detainees in Keraterm?

 5       Q.   Yes.

 6       A.   Yes, but only when called out and escorted by a guard.

 7       Q.   Yes.  And did that happen on Kole's shift?

 8       A.   It depended on who knew the detainees.  I mean guards would allow

 9    a detainee to get his parcel if he knew that particular detainee, and this

10    could have happened on any shift.

11       Q.   But do you remember it happening on Kole's shift?

12       A.   Quite possible, quite possible that it also happened during his

13    shift.

14       Q.   And quite apart from you saying what your experience was of Kole's

15    shift, is it right that his reputation amongst other detainees was that it

16    was better to be on his shift?

17       A.   That it is better to be on his shift, I don't understand what you

18    mean.

19       Q.   Was his reputation better with other people in the camp who you

20    spoke to?  What I'm asking is whether what you've said about Kole's shift

21    is only your experience in those few days or is it also what other people,

22    other detainees said about him?

23       A.   I believe that other detainees felt that it was easier on us

24    because of those little things that meant a great deal to us.  Yes, I

25    believe that they felt differently and I believe that they felt about

Page 2658

 1    Kole's shift the same way that I did.

 2       Q.   So that was his reputation in the camp amongst detainees.

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Did you ever see Kole beat anyone?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Did you ever see Kole present at a beating?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Do you know that Kole had friends amongst the Muslims in Keraterm?

 9       A.   Prijedor is a town where Serbs and Bosniaks and Croats lived and

10    where everybody had friends.  So it is quite possible that Mr. Kole also

11    had acquaintances and friends but since I do not know the gentleman, I do

12    not know who his friends are, and I do not know if he had any.

13       Q.   I wondered whether, when you were talking to detainees, that came

14    out.

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Do you know that he worked with some of the detainees?

17       A.   I knew, that is, I learnt from people who were with me that some

18    of the detainees had worked with Kondic, but not about Kole, from amongst

19    people who were with me.

20       Q.   Did you know that any of the detainees had lived close as

21    neighbours and friends of Kole or not?

22       A.   I wouldn't know.  I do not know to this day where Kole lived, in

23    which part of the town.

24       Q.   And does the same follow with the question whether you knew that

25    he was related to any of the detainees in Keraterm?  Do you know whether

Page 2659













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Page 2660

 1    he was or he wasn't from conversations with detainees?

 2       A.   I have no knowledge of that.  I didn't know that.

 3       Q.   Can I now come to the 24th of July, please.  You told us that --

 4    yesterday, that you remember Kondic's shift?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And you remember that, around lunchtime, there was some guards

 7    firing into the air; is that right?

 8       A.   At lunchtime, yes, there were some shots fired into the air.

 9       Q.   And this was about what time?  If you can't remember --

10       A.   It could have been around 6.00 or 7.00 in the afternoon.

11       Q.   Well, you said yesterday that it was towards the end of Kondic's

12    shift, and his shift ended around 6.00, so would it be before 6.00?

13       A.   Well, the lunch that we got there lasted for about one hour, that

14    is, that is how long it took for all the detainees who could get -- have

15    access to some food, had it and left.  So it took about an hour.

16       Q.   It was on Kondic's shift.

17       A.   I've just said it was around 6.00 or 7.00.  It could have started

18    at half past 5.00 and ended at half past 6.00 or 7.00.  If shifts change

19    at 6.00, then it means that it was at the interface of the two shifts.  I

20    cannot really say that -- I cannot say to the minute.

21       Q.   I don't want to get caught up on times because this is nine years

22    ago, and it is difficult to remember about times, but I want to get the

23    sequence correct.  You said yesterday that some men were taken out of the

24    camp during Kondic's shift.

25       A.   You mean taken out, what do you mean?

Page 2661

 1       Q.   They were taken out of the camp.  Allegedly they were taken for

 2    labour; they never appeared again.  That was in Kondic's shift.  Right?

 3       A.   Yes, that is right.

 4       Q.   You then went on to say towards the end of his shift, when the

 5    time was approaching for lunch, forget the precise time, guards were

 6    firing into the air, telling you to finish the meal quickly, and some

 7    detainees were taken out of Room 3, lined up into two circles, ordered to

 8    kneel down, and then they were beaten.

 9            I just want to clarify, that was towards the end of Kondic's

10    shift.

11       A.   To be more accurate, it was whilst lunch was being distributed.  I

12    was outside then and that is when I saw it.

13       Q.   And when you said yesterday, on oath, that was towards the end of

14    Kondic's shift, that was true?

15       A.   When you say, "when you said that," what do you mean, that those

16    people were taken out and made to stand in circles and that I said it was

17    towards the end of Kondic's shift?  Is that what you mean?

18       Q.   Yes.  When the time was approaching for lunch, you said.

19       A.   Let me repeat that.  I saw them as I was eating.  Now, when

20    exactly they were taken out, I cannot really pinpoint, but it must have

21    been around 6.00 or 7.00.  What I said that people were taken out and did

22    not come back, it was on Kondic's shift.  And if the interpretation you

23    got that I was explicitly saying that those people had been taken out and

24    beaten as we had our meal during Kondic's shift, well, then I don't know

25    if the misunderstanding is due to the interpretation in fixing the time or

Page 2662

 1    something else.

 2       Q.   Forget the time.  My question is:  Did that happen on Kondic's

 3    shift?

 4       A.   I'm not sure.  It could have been Kondic's and it also could have

 5    been Kole's shift.

 6       Q.   Why did you say yesterday, "Towards the end of Kondic's shift

 7     ..."?  Are you telling the truth?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Why did you say yesterday, "Towards the end of his shift, or

10    around 6.00, when the time was approaching for lunch, or rather the meal

11    that we had, we had very little time to meet [sic].  There were guards

12    around us firing into the air ... telling us to finish our meal as quickly

13    as possible," while you were waiting in line for your ration, you saw

14    detainees being taken out of Room 3 onto the grass lawn, and you then

15    described the beating.  Was that the truth, what you said on oath

16    yesterday?

17       A.   Yes, it was.

18       Q.   So did the beating happen on Kondic's shift?

19       A.   It was at the time that the shifts were changing, so I cannot

20    really give you the very accurate answer to your question.

21       Q.   Well, did you see Kole involved at all in that activity?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   You went on to say that later on a table was placed with a

24    machine-gun facing Room 3.

25       A.   That's right.

Page 2663

 1       Q.   Is that what you actually saw at the time that the table was

 2    placed there or what you realised must have happened afterwards?

 3       A.   I saw it when I went out to get my lunch.  It had already been

 4    placed there.

 5       Q.   Well, let me ask you:  There was a machine-gun post, a bunker,

 6    facing Rooms 3 and 4 permanently, was there not?

 7       A.   I cannot recall a machine-gun nest opposite the Room 3 all the

 8    time.  I remember this table and that machine-gun, and I remember them on

 9    that day, and they were not there before that.

10       Q.   I just want to challenge you on this.  There were two machine-guns

11    in Keraterm permanently, were there not?

12       A.   I cannot really say how many machine-gun nests were there

13    throughout.

14       Q.   Would you try to be helpful and try to remember.  There was one

15    machine-gun in the path past the hut and the weigh bridge, just facing

16    Rooms 1 and 2, was there not?

17       A.   When I look at what you are pointing at on this sketch, there was

18    no machine-gun nest.  I can show it to you.

19            MR. LAWRENCE:  Can we have it on the ... Page 2 of that.

20       Q.   Firstly, Mr. Zubovic, will you agree that the path you have put up

21    coming into the camp is more accurately a few yards over to the right, so

22    that it ends facing Rooms 1 and 2?

23            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness speak into the microphone,

24    please.

25            MR. LAWRENCE:

Page 2664

 1       Q.   That's right.  That path is a few yards over to the right.

 2       A.   I don't know how much a yard is.

 3       Q.   I'm so sorry.  I mean British.  Metres.

 4       A.   It is possible.  It is possible that it is a couple of metres to

 5    the left or right.

 6       Q.   I suggest to the right.  And at the end of it, where it comes

 7    round in front of the building, on the corner there was a permanent

 8    machine-gun emplacement?

 9       A.   You mean approximately here?  No, there was nothing.  No, there

10    was no permanent machine-gun nest there.  There was some kind of -- there

11    was a U-shaped fence that was used by the detainees occasionally to hang

12    their clothes to dry.

13       Q.   Well, they may have hung their clothes around the machine-gun, I

14    don't know, but what I'm suggesting to you is what I am instructed by my

15    client was the position; do you understand?  It's not what I'm saying I

16    saw, it's what Mr. Kolundzija remembers as the situation.  So was there a

17    machine-gun, was there not a machine-gun somewhere around that corner?

18       A.   So far as I remembered, there was no machine-gun in this area,

19    that is, from the -- from the weigh hut and over to that area.

20       Q.   Where the kiosk was outside Rooms 1 and 2.

21       A.   The kiosk was here, approximately here.

22       Q.   Well, by the kiosk, a bunker with a machine-gun, I suggest.  You

23    say no?

24       A.   Yes.  That is what I said yesterday.

25       Q.   The second machine-gun was a little to the left of that scale on

Page 2665

 1    the plan that you've got, the 0, 6, 12 metres, a bunker and a machine-gun

 2    permanently there.

 3       A.   I do not recall that detail.

 4       Q.   It's quite important, because that machine-gun was to frighten

 5    people into not escaping from Rooms 3 and 4, and the other machine-gun was

 6    to frighten people into not escaping from Rooms 1 and 2, so they had

 7    purposes, and you can't remember either of those machine-guns?

 8       A.   As I pointed out, this machine-gun here next to the kiosk, I

 9    remember that one, but --

10       Q.   Do you remember any other machine-gun anywhere on the camp

11    permanently?

12       A.   Except for that one there, no.

13       Q.   And that one there doesn't have line of sight round the corner of

14    the building.

15       A.   I'm sorry, but I did not see what you were pointing at.

16       Q.   Are you saying that that machine-gun by the kiosk, you say to the

17    left of the path, did not have line of sight round the side of the

18    building.

19       A.   What angle are you pointing at as the farthest that one could see

20    from that vantage point?  Perhaps I can assist you by showing you.  In

21    this -- the machine-gun vantage point had this view, from what I could

22    see, but I don't know how far to the right the building extended and for

23    how far the machine-gun could be seen.  That I don't know because I was

24    never there in that area.

25            I was only as far as entrance 4, the entrance to Room 4 was -- I

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Page 2667

 1    never went beyond that point.

 2       Q.   I think that's as far as I can take the machine-gun.  I'm just

 3    wondering whether, when you were asked questions by an investigator,

 4    whether you were asked whether you saw a table, and you agreed that you

 5    did.  Is that what happened when you were asked questions?

 6       A.   No.  In my statement, I said that I had seen that table that I had

 7    never seen in that position before, the desk or the table with the

 8    machine-gun on it.

 9            MR. LAWRENCE:  Well, I'm looking at page 2 of the statement of the

10    14th of December, and the fourth paragraph down, Your Honours, it refers

11    to the matter but it may be a translation, was set up.  I think what he's

12    saying is he saw it being set up but that's not what was written but I

13    won't proceed with that.

14            MR. RYNEVELD:  In fairness, might I ask counsel to look at the

15    fifth paragraph down, which starts at -- with the words, "At 4.30 on the

16    afternoon of the 24th of July ..." and read the next sentence.

17            MR. LAWRENCE: "The witness saw a machine-gun was set up on a

18    table."  That's the point that I'm making.

19            MR. RYNEVELD:  I don't want to get into an argument with counsel,

20    but if he's going to put something to a witness, I just want it done

21    fairly.

22            MR. LAWRENCE:  That's rather provocative.  My learned friend

23    obviously wasn't listening.  I've just drawn the Court's attention to that

24    very section, and then he got up and drew the Court's attention to that

25    section again.

Page 2668

 1            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can we proceed.

 2            MR. RYNEVELD:  My apologies.  There was no adverse inference

 3    intended.  I just wanted to make sure my learned friend had access to

 4    which the paragraph from which the summary was based.

 5            MR. LAWRENCE:  Well, I did actually indicate that to the Court.

 6            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please proceed.

 7            MR. LAWRENCE:

 8       Q.   Now, just focusing your recollection in your mind about that

 9    time.  At about that time, would I be right in suggesting that the camp

10    suddenly filled up with a lot more soldiers?

11       A.   There were more guards than usual.

12       Q.   Many more?

13       A.   That's a relative term.

14       Q.   60 or 70 more soldiers came into the camp.

15       A.   I cannot say what number.  I just saw new guards, new faces,

16    guards that I had never seen before, but I cannot put a number on that.

17       Q.   Where were you when that happened?

18       A.   When you say "that," what are you referring to?

19       Q.   When you saw more guards, where were you?

20       A.   At that time, I was receiving food.  I was outside.  It was during

21    this lunchtime.

22       Q.   And did more guards come into the camp?

23       A.   I did not see them entering, I saw them inside.

24       Q.   After you'd had your food, where did you go?

25       A.   May I show?

Page 2669

 1       Q.   Yes.

 2       A.   Here, I ate my ration at this corner here on the pavement.  This

 3    took maybe a total of three or four minutes, that is, the receiving food

 4    and then eating it.  I then handed over the plate and spoon to the next

 5    detainee and I went back to the room.

 6       Q.   Which room?

 7       A.   Number 2.

 8       Q.   Where in the room?

 9       A.   [Indicates].

10       Q.   At the back of the room.  With how many people between you and the

11    door?

12       A.   In the room?  You mean -- did you say that they were standing or

13    they were just there?

14       Q.   You tell me.  Were there people between you and the door?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   How many people?

17       A.   There were about 500 people in that room, approximately.

18       Q.   Standing, sitting?

19       A.   It depended.  Some were standing, some were sitting, some were

20    lying.

21       Q.   Talking?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Quite a lot of noise in the room?

24       A.   No.  No.  No.

25       Q.   Silence?

Page 2670

 1       A.   No, but it wasn't noisy.

 2       Q.   And how long were you at that position in Room 2 for?

 3       A.   From approximately 10.00, 11.00 at night on the 20th of July until

 4    the camp was disbanded.  That is how long I spent in that place.

 5       Q.   So if soldiers arrived in large numbers, you would not have seen

 6    them.

 7       A.   I didn't say that I had seen them.  I did not say that they had

 8    arrived in large numbers.

 9       Q.   But if they did arrive, you could not have seen them?

10       A.   There was also a possibility for us to see them, because from the

11    position where I was, from that vantage point, if everybody was sitting

12    down, I could see the entrance and that weigh hut.  Technically speaking,

13    I could see what was going on.

14       Q.   But did you see what was going on?

15       A.   When you say did I see what was going on, are you referring to

16    whether I had seen -- whether I saw the new guards arriving, those who had

17    entered the camp that afternoon?  I'm not sure --

18       Q.   I'm not --

19       A.   I'm not sure whether it is a matter of interpretation, but I find

20    your questions not clear enough, not fully defined.

21       Q.   I'm sorry.  I'm not asking you about what happened earlier in the

22    day.  I am suggesting that between 70 and 100 soldiers arrived on the camp

23    before there was any shooting, and it may be that if you were where you

24    said you were for all that time, you wouldn't have seen that happening.

25    Is that the situation?

Page 2671

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Did you hear singing in Room 3?

 3       A.   Yes.  Singing was not unusual, and in Room 2 we could hear

 4    singing, but where it was coming from, I cannot say precisely, but I

 5    assume it was coming from Room 3.

 6       Q.   All right.  That's fair enough.  And did it go on quite late, the

 7    singing?

 8       A.   I don't remember.

 9       Q.   Did you hear shouting coming from outside Room 3 area?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Did you hear screaming coming from the Room 3 area?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Did you gather from those who were in front of your room that

14    something was happening in, at, or about Room 3?

15       A.   I learnt from others who were sitting closer to the door that the

16    guards -- that there were guards in front of Room 3 during that period

17    when one could hear noise and screaming.

18       Q.   Do you know from what the people in front of you were saying that

19    the people in Room 3 were trying to get out to get air and water?  Did you

20    gather that from the people nearer the door than you?

21       A.   No.  I did not hear that from the people who were sitting up

22    front.  Or, to make it clear, I did not hear that there was an attempt to

23    escape Room 3 or to get out of Room 3.

24       Q.   Do you know that an attempt was made to try to get the hydrant

25    turned on?  Did the other detainees tell you about that?

Page 2672

 1       A.   I don't know about that.

 2       Q.   I'm not suggesting you can have either recall or even knowledge

 3    about this, but I'm asking you in case you can.  So you don't -- you're

 4    not able to help as to whether there was a situation where people in Room

 5    3 were trying to get air and water and anybody outside was trying to get

 6    the hydrant turned on?

 7       A.   No, I did not have such information.

 8       Q.   At any rate, does it follow from what you've said that at no stage

 9    did you hear Kole giving any orders?

10       A.   Yes, that is correct.  I never heard that.

11       Q.   And you yourself didn't see the shooting?

12       A.   I did not see shooting, but I don't know what time period you are

13    referring to.

14       Q.   Well, at all during the night.

15       A.   As I said, the shots during the lunchtime, I was present there and

16    I saw it; and as far as other shooting is concerned, that is, later on, I

17    did not see that.

18            MR. LAWRENCE:  May I have a moment?

19                          [Defence counsel confer]

20            MR. LAWRENCE:

21       Q.   Do you know the name of any of the guards on Kole's shift?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   And when you've given the names of guards, they were on shifts

24    other than Kole's, were they?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2673













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Page 2674

 1       Q.   Just help me finally about the camp.  I've asked you some

 2    questions about the camp before.  There was no high wall around the camp,

 3    was there?

 4       A.   No.  There was fence.

 5       Q.   The fencing was a metre and a half high?

 6       A.   Yes, about 1.5 metres to 2.  These are standard fences made for

 7    industrial plants.

 8       Q.   So anybody could have got over them?

 9       A.   Yes, but the question was whether one could reach the fence.

10       Q.   Yes.  And there were 10 or 12 guards only on duty in the camp at

11    any one time, 10 to 12?

12       A.   I don't know that information.  I don't know the number of guards

13    per shift.  I would refrain from giving you an approximate number.

14       Q.   And people came onto the camp?

15       A.   When you say "people," who are you referring to?  The --

16       Q.   Soldiers, policemen.

17       A.   Yes, they did come.

18       Q.   And did you not know that at the other side of the road, at the

19    entrance to the camp, was the army headquarters for the region?

20       A.   No, I did not have such information.

21       Q.   You said you saw army vehicles.

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Outside the camp or inside the camp?

24       A.   Outside the camp.  Sometimes military vehicles were also --

25       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 2675

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Outside the building which might have been the army headquarters.

 3    That's the point.

 4       A.   I don't know whether it was the army headquarters, but it was --

 5    at any rate, it was outside the camp.

 6       Q.   And there were hundreds of detainees --

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   -- being controlled by very few guards?

 9       A.   Are you trying to elicit from me whether there was a small number

10    of guards in comparison to the number of inmates?

11       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

12       A.   At any rate, according to the information I had, by one count

13    there were about 1.300 detainees in the camp, and certainly there were

14    many fewer guards there.

15       Q.   And only one machine-gun that you know there?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And fences all round that people could have jumped over?

18       A.   I don't know that the interpretation is correct, but I don't know

19    what the question means.  Yes.  Yes.

20       Q.   Do you know if anybody ever tried to escape?

21       A.   No, I don't.

22       Q.   Of course what would stop people escaping would be that if they

23    were caught in the street, in the town, they might be shot.

24       A.   I cannot speak to that.  I don't know what would have happened to

25    someone had he been caught.

Page 2676

 1       Q.   [Previous translation continues]... think might have happened if

 2    somebody might have run out of the camp?

 3       A.   Certainly the guards would not allow that.  They would at least

 4    try to prevent it.

 5       Q.   But if the guards couldn't prevent because there were too many

 6    people or if the guards didn't see anybody come out of Room 3 or 4 and run

 7    up the side and round the corner while they were serving food or getting

 8    water or whatever, if that was the position, would you surmise that people

 9    would have been able to get very far before they were shot at?

10       A.   It's very hard for me to either judge that or give you an answer

11    to what you said what would happen.

12       Q.   Do you know how far away were the nearest houses?

13       A.   They were not very far away from the fence, especially on the

14    left-hand side, that is, the side where Rooms 3 and 4 were.

15       Q.   But anybody who tried to run home might be caught at home by

16    soldiers, might they not?

17       A.   I assume so.

18       Q.   [Previous translation continues]... happen to them?

19       A.   How should I know?

20       Q.   Well, because you're an ex-soldier and a human being and a

21    detainee, so you would know more than most of us.

22       A.   What happened to us in the camp was completely beyond reason so I

23    cannot at all assume or surmise what would have happened.

24       Q.   But anyway, there was no attempt while you were there for your 16

25    days for anybody or any group of people to try to get out.


Page 2677

 1       A.   No, as far as I know.

 2            MR. LAWRENCE: May I just have a moment?

 3                          [Defence counsel confer]

 4            MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Sir Ivan.

 6            Mr. Ryneveld, any re-examination?

 7            MR. RYNEVELD:  Just one area for clarification and another --

 8    well, actually two areas for clarification, if I may.

 9                          Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

10       Q.   Sir, when you were asked concerning the incident during your

11    supper on the night of the 24th of July 1992, counsel talked to you about

12    matters that happened at the end of a previous shift and then the

13    lunchtime itself.

14            Yesterday, you offered an opinion that during the beating of some

15    people, that it was on Kole's shift; do you recall saying that?

16            MR. LAWRENCE:  No, I don't think my learned friend can either do

17    that nor do I think he is accurate.  And if there is to be an issue of law

18    to be discussed, may I respectfully suggest that the witness is asked to

19    leave?

20            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ryneveld.

21            MR. RYNEVELD:  With respect, Your Honour, I'm entitled, we would

22    submit, to clarify an issue about -- an issue that's relevant to this

23    Court.  The application that my friend makes is, of course, in the Court's

24    hands, but my understanding is that the precedent in this Court that

25    witnesses have not been asked to leave.  I realise that happens in other

Page 2678

 1    jurisdictions, but we're here under the Tribunal's jurisdiction.

 2            I have no objection one way or the other, but my question for

 3    clarification is not based on a false premise.  My recollection is that

 4    the witness offered some evidence that I want to have clarified as a

 5    result of my friend's cross-examination.  My view is my questions are

 6    wholly appropriate and proper, and if my friend wants to address you on

 7    that, it's up to you whether you want the witness present or not.

 8            JUDGE ROBINSON:  What is the question you are asking?

 9            MR. RYNEVELD:  I'm about to ask the witness what did he see or

10    what drove him to the conclusion that it was during Kole's shift.

11            JUDGE MAY:  Why not simply ask him what conclusion did he draw

12    about the shift?

13            MR. RYNEVELD:  Fine, then, that -- thank you.  May I proceed?

14            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

15            MR. RYNEVELD:

16       Q.   Sir, the incident you talked about concerning the beating of some

17    prisoners, first of all, when did you see that incident?

18       A.   It was at lunchtime.

19       Q.   Were you inside the room or outside the room at the time?

20       A.   Outside.

21       Q.   What conclusion did you draw about what shift was on duty and why?

22       A.   On the basis of the time of the day when it happened, and it was

23    after 6.00 and went on until about 8.00.  And I was outside for a very

24    short while so I did not see the -- I saw them being taken out, but those

25    prisoners were kept outside and beaten for more than an hour.

Page 2679

 1       Q.   Did you recognise any of the individuals involved in the beating,

 2    and did you know whose shift they were on?

 3       A.   You mean victims or the guards?

 4       Q.   My apologies.  The persons doing the beating, whether they were

 5    guards or soldiers or whomever.

 6       A.   No, I didn't recognise any of them, nor do I know any of the

 7    persons who did that.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  So your evidence yesterday was based on the time of

 9    day; is that correct?  And to your understanding, what time was the shift

10    change?

11       A.   As I have said, around 6.00 in the morning and the afternoon.

12       Q.   The second area I'd like to turn to very briefly, sir:  While at

13    Keraterm, were the detainees armed?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Were the soldiers or the guards, did they have arms?

16       A.   They did.

17       Q.   The town of Prijedor, did you know under whose control that was

18    while you were a detainee at Keraterm?

19       A.   It was controlled by representatives of the Serb politicians who

20    came from the Serb people and political parties and the same held true of

21    the units of the former Yugoslav Peoples' Army which were on the ground

22    there.

23            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you, sir, I have no further questions in

24    re-examination.

25            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.

Page 2680













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Page 2681

 1            Mr. Zubovic, that concludes your testimony and you are released.

 2                          [The witness withdrew]

 3            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Baly.

 4            MS. BALY:  Before I call the next witness, may we go into closed

 5    session for a few minutes.

 6            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Private session.

 7                          [Private session]

 8    [redacted]

 9    [redacted]

10    [redacted]

11    [redacted]

12    [redacted]

13    [redacted]

14    [redacted]

15    [redacted]

16    [redacted]

17    [redacted]

18    [redacted]

19    [redacted]

20    [redacted]

21    [redacted]

22    [redacted]

23    [redacted]

24    [redacted]

25    [redacted]

Page 2682













13   Page 2682 redacted private session.














Page 2683

 1    [redacted]

 2    [redacted]

 3    [redacted]

 4    [redacted]

 5    [redacted]

 6    [redacted]

 7    [redacted]

 8    [redacted]

 9                          [Open session]

10            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

11            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

12    whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                          WITNESS:  WITNESS M

14                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

15            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Be seated.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17            MS. BALY:  Mr. Usher, can you please show the witness this

18    document.

19                          Examined by Ms. Baly:

20       Q.   Witness, on that document, do you see your name written?

21       A.   I do.

22       Q.   Is that your date of birth?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And, Witness, do you understand that in these proceedings, you are

25    to be referred to as Witness M?

Page 2684

 1       A.   I do.

 2       Q.   Thank you.

 3            MS. BALY:  I tender the document which I think is Exhibit 38.

 4            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Proceed, Ms. Baly.

 5            MS. BALY:  Thank you.

 6       Q.   Now, Witness, prior to the war breaking out, did you live in

 7    Prijedor?

 8       A.   I did.

 9       Q.   In 1987, did you undertake a period of military training with the

10    JNA army?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And then in 1988, did you commence working in Prijedor?

13       A.   I did.

14       Q.   At the time that the war broke out, were you a civilian person or

15    were you still involved in the military?

16       A.   Civilian.

17       Q.   May I take you, please, Witness M, to around the 1st of May 1992.

18    Is that a time when some checkpoints were established in the area?

19       A.   That's right.  In May, the first checkpoints began to turn up

20    around the town.

21       Q.   What would take place at those checkpoints?

22       A.   Those were -- well, routine, if you can call it that, routine

23    controls of your personal papers, driving licences, where you were coming

24    from, where you were going to.

25       Q.   What ethnicity are you, Witness M?

Page 2685

 1       A.   Muslim.

 2       Q.   Now, at those checkpoints, was there any particular distinction

 3    made based on the ethnicity of the person who was proceeding through the

 4    checkpoint and, if so, what would happen?

 5       A.   Well, those checkpoints were mostly manned by local people, people

 6    from those localities, from those hamlets, and they decided who could go

 7    through and who needed to be checked.

 8       Q.   And who was checked?  Was there any particular pattern to the

 9    ethnicity of those who were checked and those who were allowed through?

10       A.   All the non-Serb population had to be checked and was checked.

11       Q.   Now, Witness M, there came a time when the village of Hambarine

12    was attacked; is that correct?

13       A.   Yes.  That time came too in May.

14       Q.   What happened to you insofar as your work was concerned at that

15    time?

16       A.   Well, everybody, that is, most of the firms closed down, people

17    were fired, and I was one of those who experienced the same thing.

18       Q.   Were you fired or did your firm close down?

19       A.   I was fired.

20       Q.   Now, after the attack on Hambarine, did there come a time when the

21    village of Kozarac was also attacked and many of the homes in that village

22    were destroyed?

23       A.   That's right.

24       Q.   And at that time, were the roads being controlled by the Serbian

25    population?

Page 2686

 1       A.   Yes, throughout, all the time there were controls there.

 2       Q.   May I take you now, please, Witness M, to the 7th of June 1992.

 3    Did something happen to you on that day?

 4       A.   Yes.  That day, I was taken.  That day, I learnt what it was, that

 5    is, Keraterm, that Keraterm was a camp.

 6       Q.   And how did you come to learn that Keraterm was a camp?

 7       A.   Well, when I got there, I found there rooms full of people.

 8    Beforehand, it was the Keraterm factory, and as far as I can remember,

 9    those were their storage facilities, yet those halls were full of people.

10       Q.   Can you describe, Witness M, the circumstances that led you to be

11    taken to Keraterm.  What happened to you in order for you to get to

12    Keraterm camp?

13       A.   Well, say, that morning, as usual, I got up as always, as every

14    morning.  The sun came out, but there was something strange, different

15    from other mornings.  The soldiers had surrounded that whole locality,

16    that whole area of Tukovi and went from house to house, taking out men,

17    that is, adult men.

18       Q.   Were you, yourself, taken out?

19       A.   Yes, I was one of those who were taken out.

20       Q.   Did anything happen to the women and the children who resided in

21    those homes?

22       A.   No, nothing happened to them that day.

23       Q.   When you were taken out, to where were you taken?

24       A.   They took us that day to that collection point where they brought

25    men from all the other localities, and there we were put onto buses and

Page 2687













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Page 2688

 1    taken to Keraterm.

 2       Q.   What time of day was it that you arrived at the Keraterm camp?

 3       A.   That was before noon sometime, could have been around 10.00.  Of

 4    course, I don't know the exact time because we did not have any watches or

 5    anything.

 6       Q.   Can you describe, please, what happened immediately upon your

 7    arrival at the Keraterm camp.

 8       A.   We were lined up and our names were taken down.  I mean, my

 9    impressions of that first day as we arrived, people behind the fence from

10    those rooms were peeping out, watching, and that was this first encounter,

11    the first realisation that something like that could happen.

12       Q.   Are you able to identify who took your name down?

13       A.   I don't know the name of that person.  He was, well, say, of

14    middle age, 40, 40 something, rather heavy, overweight, and he took our

15    names down and headed for those offices where we were interrogated later

16    on.

17       Q.   Were you taken to any particular part of the Keraterm camp after

18    that -- after your name had been taken down?

19       A.   Yes.  They distributed us around those rooms and I was taken to

20    Room 1.

21       Q.   Now, Witness M, I'd like to focus, please, on the personnel who

22    were guarding you whilst you were at Keraterm camp.  My first question

23    is:  Were you able to ascertain any particular hierarchy among those

24    guards?

25       A.   Well, at a later stage, I learnt whenever new men arrived that

Page 2689

 1    they were looking forward to new interrogations, new beatings.

 2       Q.   Witness M, just please focus on the guards in the camp and tell

 3    the Court whether you were able to tell -- no, no.  Witness M, going back

 4    to your time at Keraterm camp, whilst you were in the camp, were you able

 5    to tell whether there was any particular hierarchy among the guards who

 6    were guarding you in the camp at the time, that is, in 1992?  Was there a

 7    boss of the camp and were there subordinates to that particular guard?

 8    Were you able to tell that?

 9       A.   You mean the person who took our names down?

10       Q.   No.  I mean the guards in general, Witness M, just your impression

11    of whether there was any --

12       A.   Oh, guards.  Well, they usually listened to -- yes, there were

13    people who usually listened and asked about something, but they had a free

14    hand, and by and large they did as they pleased.

15            JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't think he's understanding the question,

16    Ms. Baly.  You have to try again and put it more simply.

17            MS. BALY:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

18       Q.   You said that the guards usually listened to people, they usually

19    listened.  To whom did the guards listen?

20       A.   They listened - and this is what I learnt later - they listened to

21    those who were commanders, that is, shift commanders.

22       Q.   Do you know who the shift commanders were?

23       A.   It was Kole, Kajin, and Sikirica.

24       Q.   Now, was there any one among those that you've named - Sikirica,

25    Kole, and Kajin - who was in charge, in overall charge, the top person?

Page 2690

 1       A.   Overall, in my view, in my opinion, Sikirica was, so to speak, in

 2    military terms, the leader of the shifts.

 3       Q.   And why do you say that?  What did you see that made you think

 4    that he was the overall leader, or what did you hear?

 5       A.   For instance, based on his subsequent behaviour and the way people

 6    related to him and the way he related to other people, this is the

 7    conclusion I drew.

 8       Q.   Did you see Sikirica upon arrival, when you arrived at the camp?

 9       A.   Yes, I saw him that day.

10       Q.   What did you see him doing?

11       A.   The jobs that they usually did, the making of lists.  They usually

12    sat in those guard bunkers and observed.  I don't know how I could explain

13    that to you.  Daily routines, the things that go on in the camp.  They

14    were looking for this one, that one, they were taking people to be

15    interrogated.  Mostly what happened was taking people to be interrogated.

16       Q.   Now, Witness M, just please focus on Mr. Sikirica.  Did you know

17    him prior to your detention at Keraterm camp?

18       A.   Yes, I did know him.

19       Q.   For how long had you known him and in what circumstances?

20       A.   Well, I had known him for quite some time.  I knew, for instance,

21    that it was he who this was.  I knew him from the town.  It wasn't such a

22    big town that one would not know each other.  At any rate, I did know him

23    for quite some time.

24       Q.   What do you mean by "for quite some time"?  And you don't have to

25    give us a precise time, but just an approximate amount of time that you

Page 2691

 1    had known him.

 2       A.   Let's say about ten years.  And again, there was a difference

 3    between us in age.

 4       Q.   Whilst you were in the camp, how often would you see Mr. Sikirica?

 5       A.   I saw him during his shift and during other shifts.  If he had

 6    some business, he could be seen there.

 7       Q.   And how often, how frequently would that be?

 8       A.   Daily.  It would be on a daily basis.  Sometimes it would be

 9    during daytime, when his shift was on during daytime, sometimes it was at

10    night, sometimes in the morning.

11       Q.   Now, Witness M, since you left Keraterm camp, have you seen

12    Mr. Sikirica anywhere, including on television?

13       A.   I saw him when he was brought here, on television.

14       Q.   Now, can you cast your mind back again, please, to 1992 and

15    describe to the Court what Mr. Sikirica looked like at that time, that is,

16    in 1992?

17       A.   For instance, he was built like me, about 180, 182 centimetres,

18    fairly well-built, medium build.

19       Q.   Is there anything else you can say about the way he looked in

20    1992?

21       A.   I don't understand what else -- you mean how he looked while we

22    were in the camp?

23       Q.   Yes, while you were in the camp.

24       A.   He was usually wearing a uniform, military uniform.

25       Q.   You said earlier that he was older than you.  How old would you

Page 2692

 1    say he was, that is, back in -- when you were in the camp in 1992?

 2       A.   Thirty something, thirty to forty years.

 3            MS. BALY:  At this point, Your Honours, I intend to ask the

 4    witness to identify the accused.  I understand that my friend Mr. Greaves

 5    has an objection to that.

 6            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Greaves.

 7            MR. GREAVES:   Yes, in view of the fact that the witness has had a

 8    recent opportunity to view, no doubt at some length, the defendant as he

 9    is in the year 2001 and also in the setting in which he's being asked to

10    identify him, we object to the in-court identification taking place on the

11    basis that it is simply unfair.  He's had an extensive opportunity to look

12    at this man and it's not a fair circumstance in which to make such an

13    identification.

14            JUDGE ROBINSON:  But as against that, Mr. Greaves, he knew him for

15    ten years before and he had ample opportunity to see him during the camp.

16            MR. GREAVES:  Yes, but we've already noticed on the very first

17    occasion when the three defendants were swapped around in the court, the

18    very first witness made an incorrect identification.  There is a concern

19    that the fact of seeing someone on television in the setting of the court

20    contaminates the whole identification process.

21                          [Trial Chamber confers]

22            JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll allow the identification.  We think there

23    is a sufficient basis for the identification and the complaints made by

24    Mr. Greaves in our determination go more to the weight of the matter.

25            Proceed.

Page 2693

 1            MS. BALY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2       Q.   Now, Witness M, what I'd like you to do now - and please take your

 3    time - is to look around this courtroom and see whether you see

 4    Mr. Sikirica in the courtroom.  And if you do -- can you just do that,

 5    please.

 6       A.   Is it allowed for me to point a finger?

 7       Q.   Yes.  And can you at that time indicate, please, Witness M, can

 8    you indicate what row the person you're pointing to is sitting.

 9       A.   He's sitting to the right of Kajin.

10       Q.   You are pointing to the back row in terms of the seating in the

11    courtroom; is that right, Witness M?

12       A.   Yes, that is correct.  The last row.

13       Q.   What I'd like you to do, please, is to count the seat, indicate by

14    the seat from left to right which seat is he in.

15       A.   First the security gentleman, second is Sikirica.

16            MS. BALY:  Your Honours, in my submission, the witness has

17    identified the accused Sikirica and I'd ask that the record reflect that.

18            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

19            MS. BALY:

20       Q.   Now, Witness M, you indicated that the -- one of the shift

21    commanders at Keraterm camp was Kajin.  Did you know that person prior to

22    your detention at Keraterm camp?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   For how long had you known him prior to you being taken to the

25    camp?

Page 2694













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Page 2695

 1       A.   The same period of time, perhaps a little bit longer.

 2       Q.   And in what circumstances did you know him?

 3       A.   Similar circumstances, from the town and school.

 4       Q.   Again, casting your mind back to when you were in Keraterm camp,

 5    can you describe what Kajin looked like?

 6       A.   Tall, unusually tall.  I knew that he played basketball.  He liked

 7    that sport and ...

 8       Q.   Now, again, Witness M, I'd like you to look around the courtroom

 9    and see whether you see Kajin in this courtroom.

10            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Petrovic, yes.

11            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies.  I think

12    that, in fairness, it should be clarified with the witness whether, in the

13    case of Kajin, he had an opportunity to see this trial on television and

14    whether his memory had been refreshed by it, given that eight years later,

15    he watched all the proceedings on television.

16            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Why don't you put that.

17            MS. BALY:  Yes, thank you.

18       Q.   Witness M, after you left Keraterm camp, did you see the person

19    Kajin again, whether it's on television or in any other sense?  Have you

20    seen him since you left Keraterm before today?

21       A.   On television.

22       Q.   Was that on the same occasion that you saw the person Sikirica or

23    a different occasion?

24       A.   Those were two separate broadcasts.  I saw him when he was brought

25    there, on the media.

Page 2696

 1            MS. BALY:  I now intend to ask the witness to attempt to identify

 2    the accused Mr. Kajin.

 3                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 4            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, go ahead.

 5            MS. BALY:

 6       Q.   Now, Witness M, can you see Kajin in this courtroom today?

 7       A.   Again, let me start from the left.  The policeman, Sikirica, and

 8    then Kajin in the middle.

 9            MS. BALY:  I'd ask that the record reflect that the witness has

10    identified the accused Kajin.

11            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

12            MS. BALY:  I noted Your Honour wished to adjourn at 12.45.

13            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we are going to take the adjournment.

14            Sir Ivan, we have an adjournment now for an hour and a half.

15    Perhaps some of that time could be used by you and Mr. Ostojic for

16    instructions in relation to this witness.

17            MR. LAWRENCE:  Yes, of course, Your Honour.  But some time has got

18    to be taken for, at any rate, our client eating, if not counsel, but

19    that's not my point.

20            My point is unless I know what has gone before in the course of

21    this case, I am not well suited to cross-examine any witness.  I made an

22    exception for Zubovic but I didn't want that to be the rule.  I still felt

23    inhibited when I cross-examined Zubovic.  I still didn't have enough time

24    to get properly instructed, and I still don't think that the

25    cross-examination was satisfactory.

Page 2697

 1            JUDGE MAY:  Sir Ivan, I can't help but notice that you managed an

 2    hour and five minutes cross-examination despite these many difficulties.

 3            MR. LAWRENCE:  Yes, but it might have gone on for another hour and

 4    a half or it might have been shorter.

 5            JUDGE ROBINSON:  We might not have allowed that.

 6            MR. LAWRENCE:  Well, I'm afraid I haven't seen this witness'

 7    evidence before it was shown to me yesterday.  I don't know anything at

 8    all about my client's --

 9            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well, Sir, we will take up the matter when

10    we come to your cross-examination and deal with it then.

11            Witness M, we are going to take an adjournment now for an hour and

12    a half.  We'll resume at 20 minutes after 2.00.  During the adjournment,

13    you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody, and that includes the

14    members of the Prosecution team.

15                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.50 p.m.











Page 2698

 1                          --- On resuming at 2.22 p.m.

 2            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Baly.

 3            MS. BALY:

 4       Q.   Witness M, the third person you said was a shift commander was

 5    Kole.  Did you know that person prior to your detention at Keraterm camp?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And for how long had you known him and in what circumstances, that

 8    is, prior to the camp?

 9       A.   Well, perhaps not as long as the others, but I also knew him from

10    town, under similar circumstances as the other two.  I know that he had

11    his own business.

12       Q.   Can you describe what he looked like, that is, back in 1992, when

13    you were in the camp?  How did he look then?

14       A.   At that time, about 30 years.  He was wearing a military uniform,

15    like the others, when I arrived at the camp.

16       Q.   When you left the Keraterm camp, did you see him again, whether it

17    was on television or anywhere else, prior to coming here?

18       A.   On television, and that was when he was brought here.

19       Q.   Now, again, Witness M, I'd like you to look around this courtroom

20    and see if you can see him here.

21            MR. LAWRENCE:  I make the same objection that my colleagues have

22    made on behalf of their clients.

23            JUDGE ROBINSON:  It is noted, Sir Ivan, and we make the same

24    ruling.

25            MS. BALY:

Page 2699

 1       Q.   Witness M, can you please look around the courtroom and see if you

 2    can see him here.

 3       A.   Again, I'll follow the same sequence.  First the policeman and

 4    then one, two -- third.  In fact, fourth.  He is the fourth.

 5       Q.   When you say "the fourth," you're counting from left to right; is

 6    that right?

 7       A.   From left to right, yes.

 8       Q.   And you're indicating the back row in the courtroom?

 9       A.   Yes, the back row in the courtroom.

10            MS. BALY:  I'd ask that the record reflect the witness has

11    identified the accused Kole.

12            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

13            MS. BALY:

14       Q.   Now, Witness M, I want to ask you some questions about the way the

15    prisoners were treated in the camp.  In general, how were the prisoners

16    treated?

17       A.   It is hard to describe it.  One had to experience it, so then

18    everybody would be clear on how certain persons should be treated.  And I

19    doubt very much that there was a reason for that, especially because all

20    these people were friends, acquaintances, neighbours, and the treatment

21    was such that it was not human; it was animal-like.  First, it was the

22    food which was inadequate, and then there was physical and psychological

23    mistreatment, and I think that it's just too much to talk about that.

24       Q.   Can you just focus, please -- I'm sorry to have to ask you these

25    questions, but just focus on the physical treatment of the prisoners.

Page 2700

 1    What would happen to them on a daily basis?  Just in general, please.

 2       A.   Daily.  And first of all, as regards food, in 24 hours, I don't

 3    know if people even got around to eating what they called food.  And for

 4    instance, if the guards sort of had a short temper, like the Banovics did,

 5    they would interrupt distribution of food.  People were not -- did not

 6    dare go to the toilet.  They relieved themselves next to each other, in

 7    their shoes, jackets, and they did not dare go to the toilet.  Often it

 8    happened that some of the local guards would run over there and start

 9    mistreating or beating on someone.

10       Q.   How often would prisoners be beaten while in the camp?

11       A.   It was a daily occurrence.  It was occurring daily.  I don't know

12    that anybody could give you a number, because it occurred every day.  You

13    didn't know when it would happen, the next minute or the next hour.

14    Whoever wanted to do something like that could do it, whatever they

15    wished.

16       Q.   Did it happen any more frequently on any particular shift?

17       A.   Well, yes.  Such things did happen.  For instance, in Kajin's

18    shift, Kole's shift, that happened less frequently - we all had to admit

19    that, those of us who were there - whereas Sikirica tolerated this a

20    little bit more.  This is how I saw things.

21            And then in addition to that, they were taken out at night.  That

22    was something completely different.  I'm referring to the daytime

23    occurrences.

24       Q.   Turning now to the night time occurrence, what types of things

25    would happen during the night to the prisoners?

Page 2701













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Page 2702

 1       A.   Well, in daytime, there would be interrogations, those

 2    interrogations, who did what, who was where.  Simply, as I see it, to

 3    establish who is perhaps more important figure and to see that that person

 4    had got there.  So those interrogations, they took a number of us there to

 5    those offices in Keraterm.  The interrogation was done by inspectors who,

 6    before we were detained in the camp, who worked for the police

 7    establishment, and they interrogated people whom they considered

 8    responsible for something.  That is how they saw it.  There would be the

 9    list in the evening and those people were usually taken out in the

10    evening.

11       Q.   You said they were taken out in the evening.  What would happen

12    when they were taken out in the evening?

13       A.   What happened is that they were taken -- well, some of them were

14    beaten right there next to number 1 or number 2 but, as a rule, they were

15    taken to number 3, we called it the dump yard between number 3 and number

16    4.  That's where they were usually beaten and battered.

17       Q.   Now, turning your attention to the people who did the beating,

18    were they guards who worked in the camp or were they people from outside

19    the camp, do you know?

20       A.   It was both guards inside the camp and visitors who came to visit

21    the camp.

22       Q.   Do you know the names of any of the people who did the beating?

23    Can you name them?

24       A.   As a rule, the most frequent visitors from the outside were, say,

25    Zigic, Duca, Lajic, then another one.  As far as I can remember, he comes

Page 2703

 1    from Omarska too, a very tall guy, thin.  And then a regular visitor and

 2    frequent visitor, very, very aggressive, somebody that we called Faca.  As

 3    far as I can remember, and he used to live near Celpak.  Sinisa was his

 4    name, I think.

 5       Q.   And what about guards from within the camp; can you name any of

 6    the guards who were involved in those beatings?

 7       A.   Well, to begin with, there was brothers Banovic, Kotroman there

 8    too, Vranjes.  No, Vranjes did not particularly distinguish himself as a

 9    beater.  Then there was Cica there too, as far as I can remember, and he

10    also killed a waiter who used to work in a nearby cafe, Cacko.  He called

11    him out.

12       Q.   Are you aware of any other inmates who were killed in the camp?

13       A.   Well, I know lots of people, a number of people by some kind of

14    name, I do not know their full names, but I know lots of folk from that

15    area, from Brdo, for instance, who were killed that night when the killing

16    happened.  And daily people were taken away or brought in.  Some people,

17    as we learnt later, were taken to Omarska.

18       Q.   Apart from the people who were killed in the Room 3 massacre, can

19    you name any other inmates who were killed in the camp?  That's apart from

20    those who were killed during the Room 3 massacre.

21       A.   Not the names, but I know that there was an individual there who

22    used to be a driver for Kozara-Putari, the driver for Labudica.  They

23    transported heavy machinery.  He was killed about half an hour before his

24    wife came to visit him.

25            I don't know how -- I can't explain that inhumane behaviour, the

Page 2704

 1    person who killed him.  He simply took him out, beat him to death, and

 2    then when his wife came, that same person told his wife -- he did not come

 3    to the gate.  He was yelling and he said, "Oh, he's moved on," and that

 4    term "moved on," it usually meant that he had been taken elsewhere, to

 5    Omarska, but we didn't know that at the time.

 6       Q.   Was this person, was he a guard in the camp or was he one of the

 7    visitors?

 8       A.   He was a guard.

 9       Q.   Can you name him?

10       A.   Cica.  Cica.

11       Q.   I want to turn now to the Room 3 massacre, and the first question

12    I have is:  Shortly before the massacre, that is, two to three days prior

13    to the massacre, did something happen to the prisoners who at that time,

14    that is, two to three days prior to the massacre, were occupying Room 3?

15       A.   Well, they were rounded up and brought -- they were brought every

16    day.  They were locked up and could not come out as we could oftentimes

17    come out in front of the door.

18       Q.   Do you know from where those prisoners had come, from what area

19    they'd come from?

20       A.   They came from the -- an area called Brda, which is Biscani,

21    Rizvanovici, Hambarine, Rakovcani, Carakovo, Zeger.

22       Q.   Now, focusing now on the afternoon prior to the night of the

23    massacre, that is, that afternoon, did something happen to some of the

24    prisoners from Room 3 and, if so, what happened to them?

25       A.   In late -- at dusk that day - I cannot remember the exact

Page 2705

 1    date - Faca, who came there often, he singled out two or three men from

 2    every room in a way that he thought he should select them.  Simply, he

 3    would happen not to like somebody, to put it that way, and he singled out

 4    20 men from number 1 and number 2, but most of them came from number 3.

 5    So altogether there were 20 men, because I counted them and I know that.

 6            At the end of the pista, that is, where the grass begins, he made

 7    those 20 men form three circles, and with different objects, from rods,

 8    wooden table legs or chair legs, they started beating them with those

 9    things.  A number of individuals took part in that beating, but who stood

10    out most in addition to Faca was Cica, Kotroman.  I also saw Vranjes up to

11    a point doing something.  Those men, those men were beaten to death.  They

12    expired down to the last one.  And before they expired, there were two

13    persons whom I knew very well, and they were brothers Duratovic.  The two

14    of them were forced to perform a sexual act, to utter all sorts of words,

15    and then they finished them up, all 20 of them, including those two.

16       Q.   What was the nature of the sexual act that those two were made to

17    perform?

18       A.   Must I explain that?

19            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Do we really need that, Ms. Baly?

20            MS. BALY:  No, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't think so, no.

22            MS. BALY:

23       Q.   Of those 20 prisoners, Witness M, how many were from Room 3?  Are

24    you able to tell?

25       A.   The majority of them.  I do not know how many exactly.  It could

Page 2706

 1    have been 15 from hall 3.

 2       Q.   Now, on that afternoon, as evening began to fall, did you see

 3    something taking place in the camp, something unusual?

 4       A.   One could see that something was afoot, because usually there were

 5    shifts; that is, those whose shift had been over would leave, but they

 6    were staying, they were lagging behind.  And it was already evening.  It

 7    was around perhaps 9.00 or 10.00, perhaps later, because we did not have

 8    any watches so that we could not say exactly, but we looked at the sky.

 9    And a table had been brought and placed to face number 3, and a rather

10    heavy weapon, a machine-gun or something of that sort, was brought.

11       Q.   Who were the persons who you say whose shift had been over and

12    would ordinarily leave but on that night they stayed?  Who were they?

13       A.   Well, you see, at that time, Banovics were there and Vranjes and

14    Kotroman and those others.  Not the full shift, not the full strength of a

15    shift.  I don't know if you get my meaning.  There were persons who were

16    already off duty or people who were not on duty or were not to be on duty

17    at all, and yet they tarried there.  They were around there.  But the time

18    was for Kole's shift to come on.

19       Q.   Did you see Kole there?

20       A.   Yes, yes.

21       Q.   Now, after the machine-guns had been placed, what did you see

22    happen after that took place?

23       A.   What happened next is that Banovic threw something, tear gas or

24    something, into number 3.

25       Q.   And where were you when you saw that happen?

Page 2707

 1       A.   Well, if I say where I was, I shall automatically disclose my

 2    identity for any public on television.

 3       Q.   Witness M, I am asking you to say whereabouts you were in the camp

 4    on that night.  You were with a number of other prisoners; that's correct,

 5    isn't it?

 6       A.   In number 1.  That's where I was, in number 1, with others in Room

 7    1.

 8       Q.   And were you -- what was your vantage point like?  How well could

 9    you see what was going on in the camp?

10       A.   I had a full view of the compound except for one part, from the

11    end of number 3 and to the 4.  I could not see there, but I could see

12    about 80 per cent of the pista.

13       Q.   Can you just describe what you saw happen.

14       A.   It was twilight.  Tear gas was thrown into Room 3, and people

15    began to scream, to shout, to make noise.  One could hear voices asking

16    for some air, the sounds of retching.  In a word, as we would say, people

17    were howling.  The door was broken down.  It was just plain metal sheet,

18    thin plate.  And as they broke it down, the fire started.  People could

19    not get far away from the room and they were just falling down.  It was

20    heavy weaponry.  One could see pieces, pieces of flesh flying around.  The

21    gunfire came in rounds, in waves.  It would start and stop, start and

22    stop.  But I mean, at the time one simply -- one's brain stopped

23    functioning, one stopped thinking.  It was -- one couldn't really

24    understand that something like that could happen.  Very, very strange.

25       Q.   For how long did the shooting continue?

Page 2708













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Page 2709

 1       A.   Well, it came in waves and it went on.  At times we would hear it

 2    throughout the night, but the intensity, truly intensive, it would go on

 3    for about one hour or two hours.

 4       Q.   Now, Witness M, what, if anything, did you see Kole do that night?

 5       A.   Before that gunfire started and all that, I -- and at that time I

 6    was grateful, because he stood at number 1 and warned those soldiers who

 7    were around the machine-gun.  He swore at them and told them not to turn

 8    their weapons on numbers 1 and 2, and I heard that very well.

 9       Q.   The next morning, did you see the bodies of those who had been

10    killed?

11       A.   There were corpses all over, because people would start running

12    and fell wherever the bullets caught with them.  One could hear the blood

13    gurgling down the nearby sewage opening.

14       Q.   Approximately how many bodies did you see?  Are you able to say?

15       A.   It was a huge mess.  One could hardly really say how many or even

16    make an estimate.  It was hundreds of people, dozens of people.  It was

17    only when I started separating them one from the other, pulling them out,

18    it was then when one could count them, when they began to line them.

19       Q.   How many did you count?

20       A.   When they lined them down on the pista, then I had a good view of

21    them and I counted, because their heads had all been pointed in the same

22    direction, and I counted 120 men killed then, that night.  And I am not

23    counting those 20 who had been killed at dusk.

24       Q.   As dawn broke that day, did you see another incident in the camp

25    involving something happening to a number of prisoners?

Page 2710

 1       A.   That morning, before these were lined up, one of the guards, and

 2    something like that could occur only to Banovic and nobody else but

 3    Banovic, that the organiser of escape be found.  And to make it worse, he

 4    picked out a man from Brdo, and I knew him and he was very timid man by

 5    nature, but it could have happened to anyone.  And that person, in a

 6    panic, he was pointing at anyone, whoever, presumably thinking that this

 7    fate would pass him by, that is, to find 20 persons who had organised the

 8    escape, and those 20 persons were lined up in a line, in a file.

 9       Q.   Just going back for a moment, who was it that said to find the 20

10    persons who had organised the escape?

11       A.   The idea came from Banovic, and who had asked him for it, I don't

12    know, but I heard him ask that.

13       Q.   And who was the person who found those 20 persons?

14       A.   It was a man from Brdo, from the area of Brdo.  One of the

15    detainees from number 3.

16       Q.   What happened to those 20 persons?

17       A.   Those men were made, were ordered to stand in a straight line, and

18    now it begs comprehension why did that person do that if he did not do

19    that throughout our time in the camp.  I suppose, and that is what I

20    learnt later, and that is what I think today still, because as a Serb, I

21    suppose he could not prove himself, he could not assert himself unless

22    he's proven and shown that he's spilled somebody's blood, that he's shed

23    somebody's blood and that is how it happened, and I think --

24            MR. GREAVES:  This is a political speech, and I really don't think

25    we need that.

Page 2711

 1            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just get him back on track, Ms. Baly.

 2            MS. BALY:  Yes.  Yes, I will.

 3       Q.   Just pause there.  I just want you to tell the Court what happened

 4    to them; who did what to those prisoners.

 5       A.   Sikirica got an -- picked up an automatic rifle and, if I remember

 6    it correctly, there was a pillar or something and, standing, he fired from

 7    one man to the other, single shots.  And if a person had only been

 8    wounded, he would repeat it.  All the 20 persons were killed, including

 9    the 21st, that is, the first one, the one who had to identify those men.

10       Q.   Where were you when you saw this happen?

11       A.   I watched it directly, that is, I saw directly, I watched directly

12    how he killed 18 persons, and I said to those 20 per cent that I could not

13    see, they were outside my field of vision so I could not see them, I heard

14    the shots.  I did not see them fall, but I heard the shots.

15       Q.   Where were you when you saw this happen?

16       A.   In Room 1.

17       Q.   And whereabouts did the incident take place?

18       A.   Keraterm.

19       Q.   Whereabouts in the camp?

20       A.   You mean the area in the camp?

21       Q.   Yes.

22       A.   The pista.

23       Q.   How far away were you from this incident?

24       A.   Not more than 30 metres, maybe 40 on the outside.

25       Q.   What happened to the bodies of those prisoners?

Page 2712

 1       A.   Then again, they found volunteers to load those corpses, a trailer

 2    truck came, the canvas was lifted, and men were loaded.  And now, as this

 3    thing that is happening, the slaughter of all this livestock, and as they

 4    are being removed, that is how they did that, except that they did it

 5    manually, and the trailer/truck was full -- I should say half filled with

 6    those bodies.

 7       Q.   When was it that you left the Keraterm camp, Witness M?

 8       A.   When the camp was closed down, when everybody left, that is also

 9    when I left to Trnopolje.

10       Q.   At the time that you left, that is, on the day that you left to go

11    to Trnopolje, was the camp commander in the camp at that time, that is,

12    Sikirica?

13       A.   But of course he was.  Nothing could happen without that.

14       Q.   During your time at Keraterm camp, did your body weight change?

15    And, if so, what happened to your body weight?

16       A.   20 kilos less.

17       Q.   Are you saying that you lost 20 kilos during your time at the

18    camp?

19       A.   Well, we all lost about that much weight on the average.  I

20    dropped exactly 20 kilograms.

21            MS. BALY:  Yes, thank you, Your Honours.  That's the evidence in

22    chief.

23            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Ms. Baly.

24            Mr. Greaves.

25            MR. GREAVES:  Your Honour, could we just go into private session


Page 2713

 1    for a moment?

 2            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3                          [Private session]

 4    [redacted]

 5    [redacted]

 6    [redacted]

 7    [redacted]

 8    [redacted]

 9    [redacted]

10    [redacted]

11    [redacted]

12    [redacted]

13    [redacted]

14    [redacted]

15    [redacted]

16    [redacted]

17    [redacted]

18    [redacted]

19    [redacted]

20    [redacted]

21    [redacted]

22    [redacted]

23    [redacted]

24    [redacted]

25    [redacted]

Page 2714













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Page 2715













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Page 2716

 1    [redacted]

 2    [redacted]

 3    [redacted]

 4    [redacted]

 5    [redacted]

 6    [redacted]

 7    [redacted]

 8    [redacted]

 9    [redacted]

10                          [Open session]

11            MR. GREAVES:

12       Q.   Witness M, can you recall the fact of the takeover of power in

13    Prijedor in 1992; do you recall that event taking place?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   When was that?

16       A.   That was in early May, early May.

17       Q.   You described the setting up of checkpoints.  Did you continue to

18    travel not just within Prijedor, but to places within a reasonable

19    distance of Prijedor but just outside the town?

20       A.   That was impossible.

21       Q.   Did you hear of what was going on in places like Hambarine and

22    Kozarac and so on?

23       A.   We could only hear it.  We could not see it.

24       Q.   So it wasn't just the Serbs who set up checkpoints at this time,

25    was it?


Page 2717

 1       A.   That was a very well-planned thing.  It was at first multi-ethnic

 2    only in order for it to be ethnically cleansed then.

 3       Q.   I'm sorry.  I don't follow you, Witness M.  What do you mean by

 4    that?

 5       A.   By multi-ethnic, at first it was Muslims, Croats, and Serbs.  They

 6    were all at the checkpoints.  And then the Muslims and Croats later on

 7    were considered unfit to be there, so then it was only Serbs.  And in

 8    other areas there were also mono-ethnic checkpoints, depending on the

 9    areas, but I wasn't interested in that; I was interested in the town where

10    I lived.

11       Q.   So is what you mean is that it was planned originally that it

12    should be multi-ethnic checkpoints so that they could then have

13    mono-ethnic checkpoints; is that what you're saying?

14       A.   Something like that.

15       Q.   And who was it who was planning to have multi-ethnic checkpoints

16    so that we could then have mono-ethnic checkpoints?  Who was doing this

17    planning?

18       A.   These people were coming and this was done in the local communes.

19    The leading persons in these local communes, those who had some

20    reputation, these are the ones who initiated that, who insisted on that,

21    and then later on who abolished them.

22       Q.   So this was done on all sides amongst each ethnic group, was it?

23       A.   At first that is how it was, and that is how it was later on too,

24    when it all became mono-ethnic.  Again, I'm referring to the area of the

25    town itself, and I don't know about the surrounding areas, because I did

Page 2718

 1    not live there.

 2       Q.   So if we have a mono-ethnic Muslim checkpoint, would it be the

 3    case that those who were not Muslim wouldn't get through that checkpoint

 4    at this time?

 5       A.   The Muslims were not allowed to stop other people who were passing

 6    through, so anybody could pass through freely, the Serbs and others.

 7       Q.   And so let's look at the Serb checkpoints, Witness M.  Are you

 8    saying that at all of these checkpoints the Serbs would know who the Serbs

 9    were and just wave them through, but they would stop all the Croats and

10    the Muslims and check their identity?

11       A.   Can you please repeat the question?

12       Q.   Yes.  Let's look at the Serb checkpoints, Witness M.  Are you

13    saying that at those checkpoints the situation was that the people manning

14    the checkpoints would look at those approaching it, wave through the Serbs

15    but stop the Muslims and the Croats so that their identity could be

16    checked?

17       A.   That is correct.

18       Q.   Apart from there being checkpoints in suburbs of Prijedor, were

19    there also checkpoints on all the main roads?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   So main roads where people from all over Prijedor were driving

22    back and forth; is that right?

23       A.   That is correct.

24       Q.   So that someone from one side of Prijedor could be stopped or go

25    through a checkpoint on a completely different side of Prijedor; is that

Page 2719

 1    right?

 2       A.   That's right.  The checkpoints were all around Prijedor, at all

 3    intersections, all approaches to the town.

 4       Q.   Help us about this, Witness M.  How would the people on the

 5    checkpoint know who the Serbs were so that they could just wave them

 6    through the checkpoint?

 7       A.   Because these checkpoints were in local communes and they were

 8    manned by people from those local communes who knew the local population,

 9    their neighbours, so to speak.

10       Q.   Witness M, you have just told us that there were checkpoints on

11    the main road.  Those were not checkpoints in the local commune, were

12    they?  Those were checkpoints that affected everybody in Prijedor; isn't

13    that right?

14       A.   Well, I don't know how well you're acquainted with Prijedor

15    geographically.  There's a road to Sanski Most.  It passes through the

16    Tukovi local commune, and in this local commune there were local Serbs

17    manning the checkpoint.  They were from that local commune.

18       Q.   How would someone living in the local commune know who the Serbs

19    from the other side of town were, know that they were Serbs, Witness M?

20    How do you explain that?

21       A.   If he didn't know him, then they would stop him to check the

22    personal documents and -- this is what I assume.  And for instance, when I

23    would pass, this is what I would hear.

24       Q.   So it's a question, in effect, whether the people knew who it was

25    who was passing rather than their ethnicity which caused them to have

Page 2720

 1    their papers checked; is that right?

 2       A.   Yes.  Those whom they did not know, they would control.  Those

 3    whom they did know, they let through.

 4       Q.   You continued working, did you not, until shortly before your

 5    arrest?

 6       A.   I stopped working right after the attack on Hambarine.

 7       Q.   And what was the date of the attack on Hambarine, Witness M?

 8       A.   I don't recall the exact date.  It was in mid to late May.

 9       Q.   So why did you claim to the Office of the Prosecutor that

10    having -- you stopped work on the day Hambarine was attacked, but that was

11    about a month before you went to Keraterm, about the 1st of May, 1992?

12    Why did you assert that to the Prosecutor?

13       A.   Because I confused the dates, but the attack on Hambarine was

14    middle to late May, and that was the time when people from Tukovi were

15    taken.

16       Q.   I'm not going to argue with you about the odd day here or there,

17    Witness M, but what you said was, "It was about a month before I went to

18    Keraterm," so we're talking early May, aren't we?

19       A.   I just told you.  Perhaps I confused it, but now I'm telling you

20    for sure that that is when it was.  For instance, there were no camps in

21    early to mid-May.

22       Q.   Between the takeover of Prijedor and your arrest, there were a

23    number of incidents of fighting between Serb and Muslim-Croat forces,

24    weren't there?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2721

 1       Q.   For example, at Kozarac there was fighting there, wasn't there?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   When did that fighting take place, Witness M?

 4       A.   Also in late May.

 5       Q.   In some areas which were not Serb areas, there continued to be

 6    control during that period prior to your arrest by Croat and Muslim forces

 7    and authorities; that's right, isn't it?

 8       A.   To the extent that there was any authority at that time at all.

 9    These were all personal initiatives.

10       Q.   I'd like now to turn, please, to the day of your arrest, the 7th

11    of June.  There were others arrested with you during the course of that

12    morning; is that correct?

13       A.   That's right.

14       Q.   All men; is that correct?

15       A.   That's correct.

16       Q.   And all young men; is that correct?

17       A.   Well, there were middle-aged men too, those who were in their

18    middle ages.

19       Q.   The reason I ask you is that you told the Office of the Prosecutor

20    not two months ago that it was the young men who were called out.  You're

21    now trying to say not just the young men but the middle-aged ones, are

22    you?  Why did you say just the young men were called out, in February of

23    this year?

24       A.   I consider young men those who are 20 to 25, maybe up to 30 years

25    of age, and there were among them men who were 40.  I cannot tell you

Page 2722













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Page 2723

 1    exactly what ages people were individually because I did not know that,

 2    but there were people who were 45 among them.

 3       Q.   So bearing in mind your definition of young men, why say to the

 4    Prosecutor, "All the young men were called out," and make no reference at

 5    all to those of middle age?

 6       A.   I just told you.  I told you what I considered to be young men.  I

 7    was young at that time.  The somewhat older would be 40 and up, and old

 8    men, to me, was over 60; perhaps 55 and over, but 60.  This is my

 9    definition.  And I don't know about your definition.  I don't want to

10    argue about that.

11       Q.   Perhaps you would be so kind to answer the question which I asked

12    you, Witness M, and that is:  When you made your statement just eight

13    weeks ago to the Office of the Prosecutor, why did you not mention then

14    that it was not only the young men but the middle aged and the elderly

15    that were taken.  Why not?

16       A.   I just told you again what I -- how I define a young man and how I

17    define an older man.  For instance, from around Tukovi, there were some

18    men who were taken who were in their 40s, who were between the ages of 30

19    and 40.  There were two very young ones, one was not fully 17, and the

20    other one was 18.  To me, those were young men.

21            MR. GREAVES:  Your Honour, I would invite you to get the witness

22    to answer the question I've asked.  He simply won't answer it.

23            JUDGE ROBINSON:  I think he has tried to give an explanation,

24    Mr. Greaves.  Perhaps you should move on.

25            MR. GREAVES:

Page 2724

 1       Q.   Women and children were not taken; is that right?

 2       A.   No, they were not taken then.

 3       Q.   You arrived at 10.00 in the morning at Keraterm.

 4       A.   Approximately around that time.

 5       Q.   And were you taken straight away to the main buildings?

 6       A.   There was first the taking down of names, and then that was done.

 7       Q.   You were asked by counsel for the Prosecution whether you had seen

 8    the person you assert was Sikirica, that you saw him upon your arrival at

 9    the camp; is that correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   When you first got there, around 10.00 in the morning was when you

12    first saw him; is that right?

13       A.   When I got off the bus and when we were lined up in order to have

14    our names taken down, and on the way to Room 1, because usually when some

15    new detainees would come, everybody would gather.

16       Q.   So by what time were you in Room 1, Witness M?

17       A.   When -- 11.00, 11.30, an hour, hour and a half later, the time

18    that it took for all the names to be written down.

19       Q.   So it would not be correct, then, in the light of your evidence,

20    that it wasn't until the afternoon that you first saw Sikirica; is that

21    right?

22       A.   I don't know what you thought how much orientation in time I had

23    at that time when I was brought there.  At that time, I had no such

24    orientation at all.  I am just approximately describing the time there,

25    because a minute was an eternity for me.

Page 2725

 1       Q.   Why did you say to the Office of the Prosecutor that it wasn't in

 2    the morning, but it was during the afternoon of the first day that you saw

 3    Sikirica in the camp?  Why did you say that?

 4       A.   For instance, you said that it was in the afternoon.  Perhaps I

 5    saw him at 12.05.

 6       Q.   Witness M, when you say -- when you claim that you saw him,

 7    whereabouts in the camp was the man you've claimed to be Sikirica?

 8       A.   We were lined up between Rooms 1 and 2, somewhere around that

 9    area.  We were facing the rooms.  He was to the left on the pista.

10       Q.   How far away from you?

11       A.   About 20, 25 metres.

12       Q.   What was he doing?

13       A.   He stood there, observed probably, probably was watching to see

14    whom he recognised and whom he didn't.

15       Q.   How was he dressed?

16       A.   In a uniform.

17       Q.   What kind?

18       A.   A military uniform, olive green, olive.

19       Q.   And a JNA uniform?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Let's just have a look, please, at the basis upon which you claim

22    to know Sikirica.  You told the Office of the Prosecutor, I think

23    yesterday, that you had seen him before the war as part of a group and

24    that you would see him in cafes and around the town.  Do you remember

25    telling either Mr. Ryneveld or Ms. Baly that?

Page 2726

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Which cafes did you used to see the man who you've described as

 3    Sikirica, which cafes did you see him in, Witness M?

 4       A.   There were many coffee bars in Prijedor.  And in summertime,

 5    people would gather in town, the old hotel, the new hotel, and then there

 6    was also a garden during the summer and there were many coffee bars.

 7       Q.   Yes, I appreciate there were many coffee bars in Prijedor, but we

 8    are talking about the ones who you claim to have seen a man called

 9    Sikirica.  Are you saying the ones you have named are the ones in which

10    you saw Sikirica?

11       A.   Yes.  Both he and I patronised these coffee bars, as did others.

12    I cannot tell you the date.  It was a daily thing.  People were moving

13    about.  It used to be a very nice town.  Everybody moved about and

14    socialised.

15       Q.   So we have the new hotel, the old hotel, and then there was one

16    which had -- which was a garden or had a garden.  Is that all of them that

17    you used to see him in?

18       A.   There's no person from Prijedor who did not go to these places, so

19    I saw him there too.

20       Q.   Witness M, your evidence has been when you were asked about which

21    cafes you would see him in, you mentioned the old hotel, the new hotel,

22    and something with a garden.  Are those the cafes in which you say that

23    you saw and are able to know Sikirica?

24       A.   Yes.  I saw him in those coffee bars and in many others.  Do you

25    want me to name them individually?

Page 2727

 1       Q.   Yes, please.

 2       A.   For instance, at Amija's, at Asif's, sometimes at Nuno's.

 3       Q.   Would you be able, please, to look at a map of Prijedor and mark

 4    upon them the location of those cafes which you have mentioned, Witness M?

 5            MR. GREAVES:  Yes, if you would be so kind as to give that to the

 6    witness, please.

 7       A.   Can you now tell me what is the centre of town?  Okay.  Hotel

 8    Prijedor.  I lived not far from there.  There's a -- the Balkan Hotel and

 9    then the Vuk Karadzic Street.  Can you show me what the main street is?  I

10    don't recall the main street name.  Oh, the Marsala Tita Street.

11            Here is Tukovi.  There is the bridge.  To the right is the

12    Prijedor Hotel and there is the intersection, and that's where you can

13    also turn to Kotor Prijedor.  From there, you can go to the centre of

14    town.  To the left was -- there was a Ramo's pastry shop, and then when we

15    go through the centre of town to the right, for instance, to the left

16    was -- used to be a mosque, and then we go up to the intersection where

17    the bookstore was and then there was a pastry shop that was kept by an

18    Albanian.

19            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Greaves.

20            MR. GREAVES:  Yes.

21            JUDGE ROBINSON:  The witness is running along.

22            MR. GREAVES:  Yes, indeed.

23            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is that what you want?

24            MR. GREAVES:  I've asked him which cafes he saw the defendant in,

25    or the man he asserts is the defendant, and I was waiting for him to

Page 2728

 1    finish his list.

 2       A.   For instance, as we come to the Hotel Balkan, there is no person

 3    from Prijedor from 16 years on who did not come by there, Ramo's pastry

 4    shop, near the market.  There were also coffee bars there.  Then at

 5    Cuko's, near the station.  And again, everybody came there.

 6       Q.   What it comes to, Witness M, is that this man Sikirica was in

 7    every bar in the town; is that what it comes to?

 8       A.   I don't know whether you want me to tell you on what day he went

 9    to which cafe or coffee bar.

10       Q.   Not at all, Witness M.  Just answer the question.  Are you

11    effectively saying that pretty well every bar and cafe in Prijedor --

12       A.   Yes.  I'm saying that he went to these coffee bars.  I assume that

13    he went to all these places.  I didn't go with him there, but I saw -- I'm

14    not in a position to know whether he went to all of them.

15       Q.   When was it that you first --

16            MR. GREAVES:  Thank you very much, Mr. Usher.  I'm sorry to keep

17    you standing there.

18       Q.   When was it that you first learnt the name Sikirica, Witness M?

19       A.   You mean when I was in the camp or before the camp?

20       Q.   The question was quite simple, Witness M.  When was it that you

21    first learnt the name Sikirica?

22       A.   Well, I was quite young at the time and I had just begun to

23    frequent places around the town every day, so it could have been for some

24    ten years.

25       Q.   And so that was the only name by which you knew him, Sikirica?

Page 2729













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Page 2730

 1       A.   Well, we in the town usually know each other by nickname, and

 2    there are so many men that I've known for ten years, or even more, and I'd

 3    only know his nickname and nothing else.

 4       Q.   So that was the nickname of this person, Sikirica; is that right?

 5       A.   Yes.  That is, people referred to him as such.  That's his last

 6    name.

 7       Q.   It is very much a tradition of assigning to people in your

 8    country, isn't there, of a nickname which is different from the last name;

 9    that's right, isn't it?

10       A.   Yes.  Yes.

11       Q.   You know what the difference between nickname and last name is,

12    don't you, Witness M?

13       A.   I do.

14       Q.   And when I asked you, "That's the nickname of this person," you

15    knew exactly what I was asking you, didn't you?

16       A.   Yes.  I know him as Sikirica.

17       Q.   You said to the Office of the Prosecutor yesterday that you saw

18    him in a group of people.  Did you know other people in that group?

19       A.   Well, lots of people in our town socialised, met, had drinks

20    together.  I'm telling you, he is slightly older than I am, so his company

21    was a different one from mine, but I knew about him.

22       Q.   Now would you be so kind as to answer the question which I asked

23    you, which was:  In relation to the group of people that he was in, did

24    you know any of those people?

25       A.   Well, for instance, in those coffee bars which he frequented, all

Page 2731

 1    the Prijedorans frequented, so he was friends with Kajin and Kole and with

 2    others.  Everybody -- people were close there.

 3       Q.   Just Kajin and Kole you're able to identify as being members of

 4    the group which he was part of, no one else?

 5       A.   I really have no right to give any other names.

 6       Q.   If you know other names, please would you be so kind as to tell us

 7    what they are, Witness M.

 8       A.   I don't.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  Did you know where the man you've claimed to be

10    Sikirica came from in the Prijedor area, Prijedor town?

11       A.   I do not.

12            MR. GREAVES:  Your Honour, just give me a moment, please.

13       Q.   Well, let's just have a look at this, please, if we may.  Prior to

14    April 1992, could you describe the physical appearance of the man you knew

15    as Sikirica?  For example, age.  When would you say he was born?

16       A.   In 1992, you mean, Prijedor, 1992?

17       Q.   Yes.  In relation to 1992, when would you say the person you knew

18    as Sikirica had been born?

19       A.   Thirty-odd.  He should be 30.  1992, he could have been 30,

20    30-ish, 30 something.

21       Q.   So someone born in 1962 or possibly as long as 1952; is that

22    right?

23       A.   1962, 1959, 1960, yes, 1961.  Could be one of those.

24       Q.   What about his build?  Slim, medium, large?  What was it in 1992?

25       A.   Medium.

Page 2732

 1       Q.   Hair colour?

 2       A.   Black.  I mean, brown/black.

 3       Q.   And how would he typically be dressed when you saw him in these

 4    cafes all over town?

 5       A.   Clothes.

 6       Q.   Yes.  That's a fairly common characteristic of the human race,

 7    Witness M.  Perhaps you'd like just to help us a little more on the detail

 8    of that.

 9       A.   Oh, dear.  Well, it was ten years ago, for heaven's sake.  So

10    jeans, a jacket, a T-shirt, trainers, shoes.

11       Q.   What about his facial appearance?  Did he have a beard?

12       A.   Not often.  Well, if you mean a beard, that it is somebody who

13    hasn't shaven for two or three days or if he lets his beard grow for a

14    month and then shave it off.

15       Q.   During the ten years that you knew him prior to the war, did he

16    have a beard or was he clean-shaven?

17       A.   Clean-shaven mostly.

18       Q.   What about when he was at the camp?  Was he clean-shaven there?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Witness M, I have a number of propositions to put to you, and I

21    want you to deal with each one.  Firstly this:  You and Mr. Sikirica, the

22    man sitting behind me in this Court, are completely unknown to one

23    another.  You are complete strangers, I suggest.

24       A.   Well, if I were in -- sitting in that place where he is, I would

25    have not known him either.

Page 2733

 1       Q.   On the 7th of June, when you were taken to Keraterm, Sikirica was

 2    not on the premises at any time during that day, I suggest to you, and

 3    that you're not telling us the truth about that.

 4       A.   That's what you say.

 5       Q.   And far from being at Keraterm on the 7th of June, he was, in

 6    fact, on a checkpoint at Hambarine and so he could not possibly have been

 7    at Keraterm that day.

 8       A.   That's what you say.

 9       Q.   Prior to the war, I suggest he was always bearded, never

10    clean-shaven.

11       A.   That's, again, what you say.

12       Q.   And during his time -- when you use the phrase clean-shaven,

13    Witness M, do you mean no beard, no moustache?

14       A.   Well, yes, can be that way.  Because one can have moustache and

15    yet be clean-shaven.

16       Q.   In relation to Sikirica being clean-shaven at Keraterm, do you

17    mean that he had a moustache but was otherwise clean-shaven or that he was

18    completely clean-shaven?

19       A.   He did not have a moustache.

20       Q.   You see, I suggest that throughout such period that he was, in

21    fact, at the premises of Keraterm, he at all times had a moustache, and

22    therefore your identification of him is a mistaken one.

23       A.   That is what you say.

24                          [Trial Chamber confers]

25            MR. GREAVES:

Page 2734

 1       Q.   You have, of course, taken the trouble to watch him on

 2    television.  Why was that?

 3       A.   Well, had you spent two and a half months there, I trust that you

 4    would also try -- that you would have also tried to show some interest in

 5    relation to your profession, for instance, and I wanted to know about this

 6    because I know what went on there.

 7       Q.   Have you been watching any of the other proceedings that have been

 8    broadcast in the place where you live?

 9       A.   I watch that regularly.

10       Q.   So you've been watching the proceedings of this trial regularly in

11    the country where you live?

12       A.   That's right.

13       Q.   Have you seen the three defendants in this case being shown on

14    television time after time?

15       A.   Well, when there is a transmission and when it is their turn to be

16    shown on the programme, then, yes, I would see them.

17       Q.   And have you watched other people identifying -- being asked by

18    the Prosecutor to identify Kajin, Kole, and Sikirica, have you watched

19    that?

20       A.   I watch that too.

21       Q.   It's not very difficult in those circumstances for you to pick out

22    the people who were in the court, is it, if you've been watching the

23    television so regularly?

24       A.   That is what you say.  Had I not seen them there, I would have

25    recognised them anyway.  Because Kajin has changed very little, he has

Page 2735

 1    perhaps gained some weight.  And Sikirica has lost some hair and grown

 2    grey.  Kole has changed somewhat too.  And I, also in 1990, I was 90, 100

 3    kilograms.  And for a while, I even had 120.  Now I have 100.  People

 4    change.  Years go by.

 5       Q.   Let's move on.  Your arrival at Keraterm, you were placed in Room

 6    1, Witness M.  Would you look, please, at some pictures.

 7            MR. GREAVES:  Exhibit 2, please, Madam Registrar.

 8            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Greaves, we'll stop at 10 minutes to.

 9            MR. GREAVES:  Thank you very much.  I hadn't realised that the

10    time had moved on.

11            My learned friend has got a copy which I'm sure that will do.

12       Q.   Witness M, as you heard His Honour say, we're going to break in a

13    moment so I'd just like you to look briefly, please, at the first

14    photograph.  Can you, by pointing at that photograph if you can, please,

15    Witness M, indicate to us where you say Room 1 was.

16       A.   This is Room number 1.

17       Q.   And Room 2?

18       A.   Right next to it, here.

19       Q.   And Room 3?

20       A.   Room 3.

21       Q.   And Room 4?

22       A.   Room number 4 here.  Just a moment.  Yes.  Yes.

23       Q.   And Rooms 1 and 2 are set back from Rooms 3 and 4; is that

24    correct?

25       A.   Yes, that's right.  Same line, because it's one structure.  And

Page 2736













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Page 2737

 1    certain details are missing here of that guard booth where the weigh

 2    bridge used to be here.  It should be somewhere here beyond this.  This

 3    was the gate.

 4       Q.   Sorry, Witness M, I'm just going to ask you to clarify.  Are you

 5    saying that the Rooms 1 and 2 were flush in a straight line with Rooms 3

 6    and 4 or that they were set back like so?

 7       A.   Yes, they were set back.  This is one building, if you look at it

 8    linearly.

 9            MR. GREAVES:  Would that be an appropriate moment, Your Honour?

10            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, it is.

11            Witness M, we are going to break for 20 minutes.  We'll resume at

12    ten minutes after 4.00.  During the break, you are not to discuss your

13    evidence with anybody, including the members of the Prosecution team.  We

14    are adjourned.

15                          --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

16                          --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

17            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Greaves.

18            MR. GREAVES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19       Q.   Witness M, help me about this, please.  The evidence that you gave

20    earlier on today concerning who the shift commanders were, you were asked

21    this:  "Do you know who the shift commanders were?"  Answer:  "It was

22    Kole, Kajin, and Sikirica."  Do you recall saying that earlier on today?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And that is something of which you are quite sure, is it?

25       A.   That is how it looked and that is how it was at that time.

Page 2738

 1       Q.   You see, you weren't really quite sure of what the role of the

 2    various people in charge of the shifts was, were you, and that's why you

 3    said to the Office of the Prosecutor:  "I think Sikirica ran one of the

 4    shifts but was also in charge.  I think sometimes Sikirica was there all

 5    night.  I don't think he had to spend all night there, because he was in

 6    charge."  You weren't sure of what he was doing at the camp, were you?

 7       A.   I was sure that he was one of the shift commanders.

 8       Q.   Help me about this:  You also thought that Fustar was acting as a

 9    shift commander, didn't you?

10       A.   At first, when I was first brought there, he played a role.  He

11    would often come down from the office.  That was sort of a heavy-set man,

12    and people referred to him as Fustar.  That was his nickname.

13       Q.   When you told the Office of the Prosecutor eight weeks ago,

14    "Fustar may have acted as a shift commander for Sikirica's shift," what

15    did you mean by that?

16       A.   At that time, I said that he may have been one of the chief

17    commanders among all these commanders, that perhaps he was even the

18    overall commander of the camp.

19       Q.   When you were speaking to the Office of the Prosecutor, you

20    described both Kajin and Kole, and in each paragraph of your statement you

21    said this in relation to each one of them:  "It was known among the

22    prisoners that Kajin was a shift commander.  It was obvious who was giving

23    the orders and how the guards spoke to them."  And then in the paragraph

24    concerning Kole, you said:  "It was known among the prisoners that Kole

25    was a shift commander.  It was obvious who was giving the orders and how

Page 2739

 1    the guards spoke to them."  Were those your words, Witness M?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And so you repeated that exact phraseology each time in relation

 4    to each of those two people?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Can you help us about this, please, Witness M:  How did you come

 7    to be a witness before this Tribunal?  Did you get in touch with the

 8    Office of the Prosecutor and suggest that you had something to say about

 9    Keraterm?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Why was that?

12       A.   Because I had a desire to tell the truth.

13       Q.   Why did it take you nine years to come forward for the first time

14    and offer what you had to tell about Keraterm?

15       A.   Because the persons whom I knew were brought here recently.

16       Q.   So ...

17            MR. GREAVES:  Would Your Honour just give me a moment, please.

18                          [Defence counsel confer]

19            MR. GREAVES:

20       Q.   Were you aware in the middle of 1999 of Mr. Kolundzija being

21    arrested?

22       A.   In 1992 [as interpreted].

23                          [Defence counsel confer] [Realtime transcript read

24    in error "Prosecution counsel confer"]

25            MR. GREAVES:  Your Honour, my learned friend is just saying to me

Page 2740

 1    that there's some confusion over the interpretation.  I will ask the

 2    question again so that we can clarify it, if I may, please.

 3            JUDGE ROBINSON:  You're also being referred to as Prosecution

 4    counsel, Mr. Greaves.

 5            MR. GREAVES:  I have done that job as well, but on this occasion

 6    I'm not.  I don't mind that, but that's not a problem.  I see it.

 7       Q.   Witness M, I'm asking you about the middle of 1999, about two

 8    years ago, slightly less.  Were you aware about two years ago that the

 9    defendant Kolundzija had been arrested and put before this Tribunal?

10       A.   Through the media.

11       Q.   I don't mind how you became aware, but were you aware of that

12    fact?

13       A.   I learnt about it through the media.

14       Q.   So as early as the middle of 1999, you know that one of those

15    allegedly responsible for events in Keraterm, a camp in which you say you

16    were detained, why didn't you come forward in June of 1999, then, in order

17    to share what you perceive as the truth with this Tribunal?

18       A.   Why I didn't?

19       Q.   Yes.

20       A.   Simply because I first wanted to see how the trials were

21    developing, and I was a person who was directly involved and so I felt a

22    sense of -- a desire and duty towards the people who were victims there,

23    to tell what happened.  It was my moral obligation.

24       Q.   What interested you about the way in which the trial was

25    developing that made you change your mind about putting yourself forward,

Page 2741

 1    Witness M?

 2       A.   Perhaps also the slow pace of the trials and the evidence, and I

 3    think that I wanted to help speed up the process and the production of

 4    evidence.

 5       Q.   Help me, please; why did you think that you coming forward was

 6    going to help speed up the trials?

 7       A.   Because of my evidence and my statement.

 8       Q.   What about -- what factor relating to your evidence and your

 9    coming forward, what factor in that was going to make the trials go more

10    quickly, Witness M?

11       A.   I don't know whether the evidence I gave was sufficient or I don't

12    know if I -- if the fact that the people who are not around any more would

13    testify.  This is why I showed up, because they couldn't ...

14       Q.   Do you have computer skills of any kind, Witness M?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Has anybody or have you at any time looked at the Internet site

17    which concerns the Tribunal?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Do you spend a lot of time listening to the evidence that's been

20    broadcast publicly?  Just tell us how long do you spend every week

21    watching the Keraterm trial on television.

22       A.   Once a week, there is a 20-, 25-minute broadcast.

23       Q.   Were you aware in October 1999, about 18 months ago, of the arrest

24    of Damir Dosen?

25       A.   Also through the media.

Page 2742

 1       Q.   Were you aware by then that the trials were going slowly and

 2    things weren't going as fast as you hoped?

 3       A.   That is what the media themselves were saying.

 4       Q.   Yes.  Why not come forward then to help the Tribunal on its way,

 5    Witness M?

 6       A.   The thing is that I volunteered, myself.

 7       Q.   I understand that.  Why didn't you volunteer in -- when the second

 8    defendant, Damir Dosen, was arrested and you thought things were going

 9    slowly then?  Why not then?

10       A.   After these events of 1992, you -- do you believe that people are

11    mentally prepared for that step, and also the security reasons are there.

12    One has to resolve the security issues with oneself in order to volunteer

13    to come forward, and you still don't know whether something will happen as

14    a result of this.

15       Q.   But in due course you did decide to come forward.  What was

16    different in February of this year that changed your situation and made

17    you feel that you could suddenly ring up or get in touch with the Tribunal

18    and say, "Here I am, send me"?

19       A.   My awareness and my sense of duty towards the victims.

20       Q.   So you made your statement on the 28th of February.  How long

21    before that did you get in touch with the Office of the Prosecutor?

22       A.   Maybe a month before that I made contact with them.  And so we

23    established contact.  They took a statement from me.

24       Q.   Are you a member of any refugee organisation?

25       A.   No.

Page 2743













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Page 2744

 1       Q.   Have you registered yourself with any institution, whether in the

 2    former Yugoslavia or the country where you now live, as a refugee who was

 3    in Keraterm camp?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   I might come back to that.  Let's move to a slightly different

 6    issue.  Do you know the name Zivko Knezevic?

 7       A.   Knezevic, I mean the last name, the surname is something that I do

 8    know because there are Knezevics in Omarska.  As far as I know, there are

 9    also some Knezevics in Cirkin Polje, Omarska, those villages up there.

10       Q.   But not -- you've not heard of a Zivko Knezevic, in particular, a

11    police officer of the age of about 60 at the time of the war who, I

12    suggest, was regularly at Keraterm.  You've not heard of him?

13       A.   No, I haven't.

14       Q.   Zoran Zigic, that's another name with which you're familiar, is it

15    not?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And you knew that he was the commander of the camp before you had

18    arrived there, didn't you?

19       A.   Before I arrived, yes.  The inmates who had been there before me,

20    they used to say that until then, before my time, he also had this role of

21    the camp commander, and after that, they must have removed him.  But it

22    did not mean much to him.

23       Q.   So that was something that you knew of your own knowledge or

24    learnt from somebody else?

25       A.   I learnt it from other people because I was not there at the time

Page 2745

 1    when he was the commander.

 2       Q.   Someone that you can -- was he someone that you continued to see

 3    throughout your stay in Keraterm or did you simply hear that he'd been the

 4    commander but never see him?

 5       A.   Throughout my stay there, that person was there.

 6       Q.   Just help us about this; you were asked by my learned friend for

 7    the Prosecution when the Keraterm camp closed but you didn't actually give

 8    us a date.  When was the date that Keraterm closed and you left it?

 9       A.   I do not know the exact date.  Mid-August, sometime in the middle

10    of August.  I don't know the exact date.

11       Q.   And we've heard quite a lot of evidence that it was either the 3rd

12    or 4th or 5th of August, sometime around then.  Would that accord with

13    your recollection?

14       A.   It was August.  We had no calendar on the wall to know the dates

15    of when was happening what.  It was August.  But was it in the former half

16    or the latter half or around the half, but thereabouts.

17       Q.   You were interrogated by Inspector Modic; is that right?

18       A.   That's right.

19       Q.   He was not part of the camp staff as such, he was somebody who

20    came from outside the camp, wasn't he?

21       A.   Yes, he came from outside.

22       Q.   And he and the other inspectors were the ones who were in charge

23    and responsible completely for the interrogation process, weren't they?

24       A.   Yes, because I was interrogated for about 15 minutes, 20 minutes,

25    perhaps half an hour.  I don't really know, because it looks like

Page 2746

 1    eternity.  That is how it looked like to me then.

 2       Q.   Yes.  And the only role that the guards in the camp played in

 3    relation to interrogations was to collect you and to deliver you to the

 4    inspectors and take you back again afterwards; is that right?

 5       A.   I don't know how long was the interrogation.

 6       Q.   I don't think I asked you how long the interrogation was, Witness

 7    M.  Let's try again.  The role of the guards was only this, wasn't it, in

 8    relation to interrogations: to collect you from the room, to deliver you

 9    to the inspectors, and to take you back at the end of the interrogation.

10    Is that correct?

11       A.   It was my case.  I don't know how it was with others.

12       Q.   What questions were you asked?  Were they focusing on whether you

13    had been involved in politics or whether you had been involved in military

14    activity or had guns, weapons, and things like that?  Would that be right?

15       A.   Yes.  Those were the questions, by and large.  Yes, those were the

16    questions.

17       Q.   It's right, isn't it, that no more than seven prisoners were

18    killed in the camp prior to the Room 3 incidents, isn't it?

19       A.   I do not know the number.  People were frequently called out and a

20    hearse used to come quite often.  But the exact number, the exact,

21    foolproof number I couldn't really give you because people were brought

22    in, taken away, beaten, killed.  I told you about one person that I know,

23    that he died as a result of the beating.

24       Q.   It's right, isn't it, that you told the Office of the Prosecutor,

25    not eight weeks ago, this:  "I know of seven prisoners who were killed in

Page 2747

 1    the camp prior to the Room 3 incidents"?  Do you recall telling them that?

 2       A.   I'm telling you:  Now I think that somebody has been killed.  If a

 3    hearse arrives in the morning, heads for -- when they set off towards

 4    number 4 and ten minutes later it leaves, so that is how I reckoned that

 5    somebody had been killed that night or that morning and that the hearse

 6    therefore arrived to take that person away.

 7       Q.   I understand that, but do you remember, just eight weeks ago,

 8    telling the Office of the Prosecutor that you knew of seven prisoners who

 9    had been killed prior to the Room 3 incident?  Do you remember that?

10       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Two.  I did say that.

11       Q.   And that's what you were, I suggest, saying was the extent of the

12    killing prior to the Room 3 incident during your stay at Keraterm, isn't

13    it?

14       A.   About which I know.

15       Q.   Just to refresh our memory, is it just two people whose names you

16    knew of those people who had been killed?  Is that right?

17       A.   That is right.

18       Q.   Just remind us again, please, quickly, of the two names that you

19    knew.

20       A.   Cacko, and the other name escapes me right now.

21       Q.   I'll come back to that in a moment.  The funeral car or hearse

22    that you've described, could you just tell us what it looked like exactly.

23       A.   Black.

24       Q.   Like a black van?

25       A.   No.  At times, yes, a black van would come, but that is not

Page 2748

 1    a hearse.

 2       Q.   And I heard you -- and I fear to tread on the interpreter's patch,

 3    but I heard the word "kombi" being used.  Was that a Volkswagen kombi-type

 4    that you were thinking of?

 5       A.   A Volkswagen.  The van could have come from the local, from the

 6    public morticians.  They did have a van, which I also knew, and another

 7    one, a proper hearse that was used whenever there would be a funeral.

 8       Q.   I'd like you to look, please, at a picture, if you would be so

 9    kind.

10            MR. GREAVES:  Your Honour, I apologise.  I don't have any copies

11    of this as yet because they've only just arrived here in The Hague, but in

12    due course we'll have them scanned and there'll be copies.  I hope you'll

13    forgive me for the moment, please.

14            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

15            MR. GREAVES:  Thank you very much.

16            Mr. Usher, if you would be so kind, please.

17       Q.   Perhaps, Witness M, so that we can all look at the photograph, you

18    could have a look at it first and then have it put on the ELMO, please.

19       A.   Well, this is a van.

20       Q.   When you described the vehicle which was used as a vehicle to take

21    bodies away from Keraterm, is that the kind of vehicle of which you are

22    talking?

23       A.   That type of vehicle also came, and a proper, more conspicuous

24    vehicle would come with it, elongated rear part for the coffin.

25            MR. GREAVES:  Thank you.

Page 2749

 1            I wonder whether we might assign an exhibit number to that,

 2    please, Your Honour.

 3            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Number, please.

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  Defence Exhibit D7/1.

 5            MR. GREAVES:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

 6            Mr. Usher, if you'd like to just take that one and do the same

 7    exercise, please, that you've done before.

 8       A.   Yes, a vehicle like that too.  Yes, a car fitted out to take away

 9    coffins.

10       Q.   So when you describe a car with an elongated back, it's something

11    that's -- a conventional car that's been slightly converted to become

12    a hearse?

13       A.   I know well that from the local public funeral parlour, a hearse

14    came and a van which was also used for the purpose.  You are showing us

15    these vehicles.  I don't know if it's those vehicles or not, but this car,

16    this vehicle here, also seems to have been adjusted or equipped to be used

17    for a similar purpose.

18       Q.   [Previous translation continues]... your reaction when first

19    seeing the photograph that that is, at the very least, very much similar

20    to the kind of car that you saw coming to collect bodies from Keraterm?

21       A.   Yes.

22            MR. GREAVES:  Thank you.  And may that be marked as an exhibit,

23    please, Your Honour.

24            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

25            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D8/1.

Page 2750













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Page 2751

 1            MR. GREAVES:  While I'm dealing with exhibits, I recall that I did

 2    not ask but should have for the map which he made a mark, for that also to

 3    become an exhibit, please.

 4            Thank you, Mr. Usher.

 5            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Defence Exhibit D9/1.

 7            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Greaves, we are going to stop at 5.00 today.

 8            MR. GREAVES:  At 5.00.  Thank you very much, Your Honour, for

 9    alerting me to that.

10       Q.   Witness M, I'd now like to turn to the incident of the killing of

11    people in Room 3.  It's right, isn't it, that as far as you were

12    concerned, that took place on a day which was a Serbian saint's day,

13    Dzurdzevdan; is that right?

14       A.   That's what the guards say and that's what they mention in their

15    conversation, one could overhear them, both the guards and detainees.

16    They guessed by the date that it must have been that some -- the day of

17    some saints was coming up, because at that time, the detainees would be

18    more fearful because on such days, guards would come drunk and more eager

19    to assert themselves.

20       Q.   Yes.  When you spoke eight weeks ago to the Prosecutor, you said,

21     "I can't recall the exact date of the Room 3 massacre but it was a

22    Serbian saint's day, (Dzurdzev day)"  So ...

23       A.   Just a moment.  I am telling you this how the -- because this is

24    how the detainees communicated amongst themselves and the guards

25    themselves.  So one would hear it from them, and every news would spread

Page 2752

 1    very quickly around the camp.

 2       Q.   Dzurdzev is the saint that we in the west would know as St.

 3    George, isn't it?

 4       A.   Well, I don't really know these things.

 5       Q.   I suggest to you that Dzurdzevdan --

 6            JUDGE MAY:  I don't think we're going to get much further with

 7    this.  Really, what are you going to suggest, the Saints of George's day

 8    to this witness?

 9            MR. GREAVES:  Your Honour, I'm going to suggest that he is

10    asserting that the date on which the massacre took place was the 6th of

11    May 1992, according to the orthodox calendar, and it would be according to

12    the western calendar, the 23rd of April.  And that this saint is, in fact,

13    St. George.  And it goes, in my submission, to the credibility and

14    reliability of this witness because -- well, Your Honours will know why

15    I'm putting that forward.

16       A.   I know nothing about no holidays, when is which or whatever.  I'm

17    telling you what the detainees talked about.  That's where this story came

18    from and how it stuck in my memory.  It just stuck in my memory that it

19    was that saint of sorts.  And as for saints, believe me, I don't even know

20    when Bajram is.

21       Q.   Help me about this, please, Witness M:  You were detained

22    throughout the period of your detention in Room 1.  At night, was the door

23    of Room 1 closed on each night?

24       A.   How do you mean, the gate, that it was only closed?

25       Q.   Room 1 -- well, let's just approach it slightly more logically.

Page 2753

 1    Did it have a door on it at its entrance?

 2       A.   Yes, it did have a door.

 3       Q.   Was that door habitually closed at night?

 4       A.   Well, it would usually be only closed.

 5       Q.   And was the door a solid door through which you could not see

 6    anything?

 7       A.   Room 1 did not have a full door.

 8       Q.   So was it a door with just a piece of open frame or a door with

 9    glass in it; what was it?

10       A.   No, there were no windows or anything.  It was just a grid, how

11    shall I call it, not rectangular.  It was like this fence here, square and

12    different shapes.

13       Q.   When the door was closed at night, through what would you look in

14    order to see the outside of Room 1, Witness M?

15       A.   Through the fence, through the wire.

16       Q.   Are you saying that the walls were made of wire?  What was made of

17    wire, Witness M?

18       A.   May I draw it for you, just a part, to show you -- to show you

19    that the door was made of such parts.  These sections are like this - I

20    don't know how to explain it to you - they are like this, about that

21    broad.

22       Q.   I'm sure you can draw it, but please don't do it on the exhibit

23    that you are holding up because that would be unfortunate.

24            MR. GREAVES:  I wonder whether he might have a piece of paper,

25    please.

Page 2754

 1       A.   There were sections which looked like this, bigger and broader.

 2    And that is how they were put together; one here, one here, one here, and

 3    that is what this whole side looked like.  And the colour, it was red.

 4       Q.   And was your view of the premises of Keraterm restricted?

 5       A.   Nothing special.  I could see about 80 per cent of that area.

 6       Q.   But not the front of Room 3 and Room 4?

 7       A.   I could not see the front part of Room 4 or number 3.  For

 8    instance, from the entrance into number 3 towards pista, about -- for

 9    about two metres, I could not see.  Beyond those two metres, I could

10    because there was a wall there, that is, rather there was a corner here

11    jutting or rather -- yes, a corner jutting out where the food was

12    distributed.  Because of that, I couldn't see it.  So there was only for

13    about two metres from the door that I could not see.  Otherwise, I did see

14    the area in front of number 3.

15       Q.   From the front of Room 1 to the front of Room 3, would it be about

16    60 metres, would that be correct?

17       A.   Well, as much, perhaps not.  But it -- nobody measured it.

18       Q.   As far as the beginning of the incident involving Room 3 is

19    concerned, you've told us about tear gas.  How do you know that tear gas

20    was used, Witness M?

21       A.   To begin with, there was smoke billowing out of Room 3 and people

22    wouldn't have been crying out, "Air, air," just like that, and breaking

23    the door or whatever else they did.

24       Q.   From what part of Room 3 was smoke billowing out, Witness M?

25       A.   The whole of it, because Room 3 through the openings in the door,

Page 2755

 1    the -- this part, through all the cracks or whatever it was between the

 2    wall and the sheet, people simply took that door out.

 3       Q.   What time was this happening?  Was it dark by this time?

 4       A.   It was at dusk, quite dark.  The night was already falling.

 5    Because again, it was summer, so at 9.00, half past 9.00, even at 10.00,

 6    you can still see.

 7       Q.   And some part of the door of Room 3, was that broken down?

 8       A.   Yes.  After the tear gas, people simply carried out a part of that

 9    door.

10       Q.   And you could see the door being broken down, could you?

11       A.   I heard it.  I heard the sound of its breaking, and people were

12    running out.  Yes, I saw that.

13       Q.   And you were aware of people who had in fact escaped before the

14    shooting started; is that right?

15       A.   Who escaped before the shooting started?

16       Q.   People in Room 3, Witness M.

17       A.   Nobody escaped anywhere.

18       Q.   Perhaps we're confusing the word "escape," but were able to leave

19    the room and get out onto the pista.  I'll return to that tomorrow.  I've

20    just got one question to ask you for tonight, Witness M.  You told us a

21    moment or two ago that you know nothing of the holidays and so on.  Is

22    that what you say, you're not familiar with the holiday periods and so on

23    and the religious holidays of your country?

24       A.   I do not keep abreast of these things.  I know why you're asking

25    me that, that I was taken on the second day of Bajram, 1992.

Page 2756

 1       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... why you were able to remember

 2    so well eight weeks ago that the day on which you were arrested was the

 3    second day of the Ramadan holiday, if you don't know anything about

 4    holidays, Witness M?  Can you explain that to Their Honours?

 5       A.   Well, that's only one reason more to remember it.

 6            MR. GREAVES:  Your Honour, that's a convenient break in what I

 7    have to do.  I hope not to be more than about 20 minutes tomorrow.

 8            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

 9            Sir Ivan.

10            MR. LAWRENCE:  Might I just respectfully tell the Court --

11            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

12            MR. LAWRENCE:  -- tell the Court that I have what is called an

13    official duty to perform on Friday and that my flight is booked tomorrow

14    afternoon, so I would be hoping to leave Court at the lunchtime

15    adjournment.  I wasn't, in any event, expecting to be in Court at all this

16    week, because I had understood - perhaps misunderstood - that the Court

17    was rising, and I actually only came to The Hague in order to have an

18    opportunity of seeing my client.

19            JUDGE ROBINSON:  The Chamber had in mind asking you once again, in

20    view of the stage at which the testimony of this witness is, whether you

21    would not be in a position to carry out consultations this evening and, if

22    possible, do some cross-examination tomorrow.  That would have the

23    beneficial result that the witness would not have to return, because we

24    are assuming that Mr. Greaves will conclude his cross-examination, and so

25    will Mr. Petrovic, in which case yours would be the only outstanding

Page 2757

 1    cross-examination, and it would be a hardship for the witness to be

 2    recalled here on the 16th for that purpose.

 3            MR. LAWRENCE:  I'm very sorry to say that my position is the same

 4    as on the last two occasions when this matter was raised.  My client does

 5    not consider, and with justification he does not consider, that I know

 6    sufficiently about the case to be able to cross-examine these witnesses,

 7    and that will remain so even though I am hoping to have more successfully

 8    this evening an hour in conference with him at the prison.  But it's

 9    simply not possible, and I -- with the best will in the world, for me

10    to ...

11                          [Trial Chamber confers]

12            JUDGE MAY:  Sir Ivan, we understand your position, your personal

13    position, but you must understand the position of this Tribunal.  These

14    witnesses are not, as in a domestic jurisdiction, readily available.  They

15    have been through, many of them - I'm not talking about a particular

16    instance - a very difficult time.  They then come a thousand kilometres or

17    so to a foreign country to give evidence.  It really is a burden on

18    everybody to ask them to return, and we have gone a long way to

19    accommodate the difficulties which have arisen in the case of your

20    defence - not your personal one; your client's defence - and therefore I

21    think really that every effort should be made to try to accommodate this

22    particular witness and to be adaptable to the particular difficulties

23    which this Tribunal has, and therefore the Trial Chamber would expect

24    every effort to be made.

25            As we said earlier, if it becomes necessary to recall a witness

Page 2758

 1    for a particular reason, then of course we could do so, but if you have

 2    the opportunity to take instructions on the witness's evidence, then

 3    perhaps you'll do so and cross-examine as best you can tomorrow, and the

 4    position then can be reviewed.  As for the afternoon, of course we

 5    understand your position.  If you've got official duties, you've got

 6    official duties and you must leave.  Perhaps we can look at the position

 7    to see if your co-counsel could continue or something of that sort, so we

 8    don't lose tomorrow afternoon too, but you can review the position perhaps

 9    overnight.

10            MR. LAWRENCE:  Thank you.  Once again I repeat:  I will make every

11    effort, but no cross-examination of mine ought to be made which is half

12    informed, and until such time as I catch up, it will remain half informed

13    and therefore make it more likely that the witnesses will have to be

14    called back anyway.  If I had said no, I wasn't available, then the Court

15    would have been in an even worse position, and because I have no doubt my

16    learned friend Mr. Ostojic also might have been found himself in an

17    impossible position.  It is to some extent helpful to the Court that we

18    both have been able to come and do what we can to help, but I'm afraid I

19    can't, under indefinite pressure, do something which is contrary to my

20    duty and contrary and prejudicial -- may be prejudicial to the client I

21    represent.  I know the Court understands that.

22            JUDGE MAY:  Well, we've expressed our gratitude already to you and

23    Mr. Ostojic for coming.  I don't think we can take the matter further.

24    But as far as your duty is concerned, you fulfil it, and you'll fulfil it

25    if you cross-examine tomorrow as best you can.

Page 2759

 1            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness M, we are going to take the adjournment

 2    now until 9.30 tomorrow morning.  You're reminded that during the

 3    adjournment you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody, including

 4    the Prosecution.

 5                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.06 p.m.,

 6                          to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of May,

 7                          2001, at 9.30 a.m.