Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3874

1 Monday, 28 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 -- Upon commencing at 9.45 a.m.


7 MS. BALY: The next witness, Your Honours, does have protective

8 measures they being granted on the 22nd of December in the 2000 order,

9 they being facial distortion and a pseudonym.


11 MS. BALY: Perhaps the witness could be sworn.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let the witness make the declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 MS. BALY: I should indicate for Mr. Usher's purposes, this

18 witness does have some slight hearing difficulty so perhaps his headphones

19 could be adjusted appropriately.

20 Examined by Ms. Baly:

21 MS. BALY: Mr. Usher, can you show the witness, please, this

22 document?

23 Q. Now, Witness, do you see on that document your name written and

24 your date of birth?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3875

1 Q. And do you understand that in your testimony here today, you will

2 be referred to as Witness W?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. BALY: I tender the document.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please proceed.


7 Q. Witness W, when the war broke out back in 1992, were you living in

8 the municipality of Prijedor?

9 A. I was, yes.

10 Q. Are you a married man and do you have two children?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And are you a person of Muslim ethnicity?

13 A. I am.

14 Q. Did there come a time when you were arrested from your home and

15 taken to the Keraterm detention camp?

16 A. That's right. On the 11th of June, 1992.

17 Q. At that time, were you a person involved with the military in any

18 way or were you a civilian person?

19 A. A civilian.

20 Q. When you were taken to Keraterm detention camp, were you placed in

21 Room 2?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Upon arrival at the camp, did you recognise some of the guards or

24 personnel who were at the camp?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3876

1 Q. Who did you recognise?

2 A. Damir Dosen, called Kajin; his brother Drasko; Zeljko Timarac; and

3 Ostoja Vuleta.

4 Q. Now, in relation to Damir Dosen, called Kajin, did you know that

5 man prior to being taken to Keraterm camp?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How did you know him? In what circumstances?

8 A. Because as -- because he lived near me and his father worked with

9 me at the Celpak. Later on he moved on.

10 Q. For how long had you known Damir Dosen, also known as Kajin?

11 A. Couple of years maybe.

12 Q. And what about his brother Drasko? Did you know him prior to

13 being -- to your detention at Keraterm camp?

14 A. Yes, but less than Damir.

15 Q. While you were in the camp, did you come to understand or to --

16 yes, to understand what Kajin -- Kajin's role in the camp was?

17 A. Not right at the beginning, but after awhile, I heard that they

18 addressed him as the chief of economy.

19 Q. Was that a way that he was addressed while he was in the camp?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was his role in the camp? What did he do?

22 A. He headed a shift. What else can I say? He headed a shift, and

23 we addressed him as komandir, chief. I suppose, he assigned guards and

24 things like that.

25 Q. And what did you understand this term "chief of economy" to mean?

Page 3877

1 A. I don't understand the question about the chief of economy.

2 Q. Witness W, you used the term earlier. You said: "... after

3 awhile, I heard that they addressed him as the chief of economy."

4 Do you remember giving that answer?

5 A. I can't really remember chief, commander; sef, komandir. Perhaps

6 that was a mistake.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, when you say he was the komandir or the chief,

8 how many guards would you say were on his shift?

9 A. Four, five, maybe more. I can't say.

10 Q. What about Kajin's brother Drasko? Were you able to tell whether

11 he had any particular role in the camp?

12 A. I only know him as a guard, watchman.

13 Q. Are you able to name some of the guards who were on Kajin's

14 shift?

15 A. Banovic - I don't know the name - called Cupo. It eludes me right

16 now. I know I said more.

17 Q. What about Kajin's brother Drasko? You said he was a guard in the

18 camp. Was he on Kajin's shift, from what you could tell?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Witness W, were there other leaders or shift commanders in the

21 camp, and if so, who were they?

22 A. Fustar. I don't know his name. He was a shift leader. And

23 Dragan Kolundzija.

24 Q. Do you know, firstly, with Dragan Kolundzija, are you able to name

25 some of the guards who were on his shift?

Page 3878

1 A. Civerica, Dusan or whatever his name is. I know that he drives

2 for Celpak. I didn't know others. I can't give you their names.

3 Q. Were you able to name any of the guards or any of the guards who

4 were on Fustar's shift?

5 A. Well, from the beginning, Zigic. I think his first name is

6 Zoran. And I remember Kondic particularly well.

7 Q. Witness W, you've mentioned this person Zigic. Was he a man that

8 would come to the camp and ill-treat the prisoners in the camp?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. Speaking generally, was there a difference in terms of the ill

11 treatment that he was able to meter out upon the prisoners depending upon

12 whose shift was on duty?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you just describe how that would differ, depending on the

15 shift?

16 A. Well, I particularly realised on Kolundzija's shift, when Zigic

17 once came and wanted to enter the compound but Dragan Kolundzija prevented

18 him, and as far as I could see there, from hall 2, the discussion was so

19 vehement that Kolundzija had to pull a firearm and point at him, but he

20 did not use it and Zigic left.

21 Q. Generally speaking, how did Zoran Zigic behave when Kajin's shift

22 was on duty?

23 A. One day, by force, as far as I can remember, and I think it was

24 Kajin's shift, when he hit me and when he came to the door around 2300 or

25 2400 hours and said to collect money, about a thousand DMs, and that

Page 3879

1 nobody would then be taken out. And then Jasmin Ibrisagic from Prijedor,

2 he went around to collect this money, I didn't know how much, and I saw

3 that Damir was some distance away. Whether he saw that or not, I cannot

4 say.

5 Q. What about when Zoran Zigic attended the camp during Fustar's

6 shift?

7 A. He abused the prisoners, beat them.

8 Q. Apart from the incident you've just told the court about, can you

9 recall any other occasions when Zoran Zigic came to the camp and ill

10 treated prisoners and you were aware that Kajin was present?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Petrovic.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I object. That is a leading, very

14 leading, question, I think, if you look how the question is worded.

15 Everybody will see that. If I may, with your -- especially as a similar

16 question was asked a few minutes earlier.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber doesn't consider it to be leading.

19 It is simply asking the witness whether he can recall any other occasions

20 when Zigic came to the camp and ill treated prisoners and whether Kajin

21 was present at that time. We do not consider it leading.

22 Proceed, Ms. Baly.

23 MS. BALY:

24 Q. Would you like me to repeat the question, Witness W?

25 A. Yes, please.

Page 3880

1 Q. Apart from the incidents -- incident that you told the court

2 about, can you recall any other occasions when Zoran Zigic came to the

3 camp and ill treated prisoners and you were aware that Kajin was present?

4 A. Well, I remember once when Zigic and Kondic beat me all over my

5 body and Damir Dosen was in the immediate vicinity.

6 Q. Now, Witness W, are you able to say who was in overall command,

7 who was the boss, at Keraterm camp?

8 A. Dusko Sikirica.

9 Q. Did you know Dusko Sikirica from before your time at the camp?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. In what circumstances and for how long had you known him?

12 A. We worked together for some three or four years in Prijedor.

13 Q. Where did you work and what was your relationship at work?

14 A. I worked in the [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 Q. And what was Sikirica's role there?

17 A. He operated a line on a new drum, [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 Q. What was the name of this timber yard?

20 A. Skladiste Derveta, timber yard in the pulp and paper factory.

21 It's just a warehouse.

22 Q. What was the name of the pulp and paper factory?

23 A. Celpak Work Organisation Prijedor.

24 Q. Now, turn back to his role when he was in Keraterm camp. How were

25 you able to tell that he was in overall charge at the camp?

Page 3881

1 A. Because guards and commanders and whoever came, we addressed him

2 as chief commander.

3 Q. Apart from the way you addressed them, was there anything about

4 the behaviour of Sikirica whilst he was in the camp that led you to

5 conclude that he was in charge?

6 A. I applied one day to go for a doctor's examination, and Dusko

7 Sikirica, because they said they were waiting for the boss to arrive,

8 Dusko Sikirica and Damir Dosen took me into a small car. They drove me to

9 the Prijedor hospital.

10 They stopped in front of the doctor's office. Dr. Ivic was there

11 and a nurse. Since I had a wound on my right leg --

12 Q. Just pause there for a moment, Witness W. We'll turn to that in a

13 moment. Let me ask you this question: While you were in the camp, how

14 often would you see Sikirica during the day?

15 A. Not that often, but I saw him frequently during the day and also

16 in the evening hours.

17 Q. During the evening or the night hours, were you locked in Room 2

18 or did the door remain open?

19 A. Locked.

20 Q. Was there ever an occasion when some official, some guard or

21 commander of the camp came to you and spoke to you while you were locked

22 in your room?

23 A. Yes. This was towards the end, at the end of the camp. I

24 couldn't tell you the date exactly. Damir Dosen came. He was

25 intoxicated. He said a soldier was killed - as far as I can remember, his

Page 3882

1 nickname was Krivi - on the hill. Five thousand people were allegedly

2 killed. I'm quoting what he said. I don't remember anything else. I

3 don't remember what else he said.

4 Q. What did you notice about him that -- on that occasion that led

5 you to conclude that he was intoxicated?

6 A. Because he behaved like that. And some of the people who were

7 there, who were present, said, "Kajin, don't say things like that," and,

8 "Go," but he stayed, and I remember those words. I was very close to the

9 front door.

10 Q. Did he say, apart from the fact that this Krivi had been killed on

11 a hill, did he say whereabouts he'd been killed?

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I must object again.

13 I apologise. The witness said, "I don't remember what else he said." So

14 that's the end of the story with that conversation in front of the room.

15 You can see for yourselves, 10:36:57, "I don't remember what he said."

16 So I don't see why my learned colleague the Prosecutor is asking

17 the same question again.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, on this occasion, we think you

20 shouldn't inquire any further.

21 MS. BALY: Yes. Thank you. I'll move on.

22 Q. Now, Witness W, were you yourself assaulted while you were in

23 Keraterm camp?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On how many occasions were you assaulted?

Page 3883

1 A. On four occasions.

2 Q. Tell us about the first time, please.

3 A. On the 16th of June, as far as I can remember, Banovic, nicknamed

4 Cupo, took me for interrogation to the expert team. I think that's what

5 they were called. He hit me in the area of my right hip and back.

6 I entered the interrogation room where I was met by Dragan

7 Radetic. He was a lawyer in Prijedor, a public Prosecutor or something in

8 court. They extinguished cigarettes on me. You can see that on my right

9 hand. I screamed. They asked me, "Where is Dedo?" I couldn't remember

10 where he was. I didn't know.

11 Shortly after that, Brane approached. He's an inspector from

12 SUP. He hit me with his fist. His name is Branko Siljeg. He hit me with

13 his fist. Then they started to question me. After that -- this went on

14 for half an hour or an hour. I don't remember how long.

15 Then I went back to dormitory 2. Banovic accompanied me, and I

16 noticed Dragan Dosen - I apologise - Damir Dosen, and he was standing very

17 close to me, but did he not protect me.

18 Q. What happened to you after you were returned to Room 2?

19 A. Later, I noticed, as far as I can remember, prisoners who were

20 together with me, they would go to interrogation and come back, these

21 other prisoners. I don't remember. I don't remember what I can say at

22 this point.

23 Q. You were taken out and asked questions and assaulted, and then you

24 were returned to Room 2; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 3884

1 Q. Are you able to say whose shift was on duty when you were first

2 taken out of your room?

3 A. Fustar. I don't remember his name. He's a mechanic from

4 Transport Prijedor.

5 Q. Now, when you say that you returned to Room 2 and you saw Damir

6 Dosen but he didn't protect you, protect you from what?

7 A. From Banovic.

8 Q. Now, you've indicated you were assaulted on a number of

9 occasions. Can you tell us about the next occasion on which you were

10 assaulted?

11 A. Yes, I can.

12 Q. Please do that.

13 A. On the 12th of July, in the evening hours, between 10.00, 11.00,

14 midnight, they called me out using a wrong surname and I responded, "There

15 isn't such a person." After a while, Kondic came. He called out my name

16 and last name. He called me by the job that I was doing. Then they took

17 me. Straight away, he hit me with his gun, and I moaned. They were

18 saying would I kill Serbian children, would I hang Serbs on willow trees?

19 I said I wouldn't and not to hit me. Then we went to the garage number

20 5. He said that I should kneel down. I said that I couldn't kneel, that

21 I had pain in my leg. This was in the presence of maybe six or seven

22 people who caught me. They said, "Which leg?" I said, "My right leg."

23 They started to hit that leg. Later they hit me all over my body. I was

24 calling out my mother for help, and they said, "Your mother won't help

25 you." They beat me senseless on that occasion. I don't remember whether


Page 3885













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3886

1 this was Fustar or somebody else in a military uniform, they said, "Don't

2 hit him on the head." Then, as far as I can remember, there was somebody

3 in military uniform who came by. They said, "Let him go. Take that pig

4 outside." I -- as far as I can remember, I went back to Room 2. I don't

5 remember how far or close it was. They were called to bring me into the

6 room because I couldn't get up. I couldn't get up for two or three days.

7 I kept losing consciousness. I can also show to the court this leg where

8 they beat me, and you can still see traces of that today.

9 Q. Just pause there for a moment. You said there were six -- I think

10 you said six or seven people. Who were those people?

11 A. I only know Kondic.

12 Q. Were they guards in the camp?

13 A. I don't know. It was night.

14 Q. And who were these people who were called to bring you back to the

15 room after the beating had taken place?

16 A. The prisoners who were present there.

17 Q. Whose shift was on duty on that occasion?

18 A. Fustar's.

19 Q. Now, you indicated, Witness W, that your leg was badly beaten that

20 night. As a result of that, did you make some request for medical

21 assistance?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who did you ask and what happened?

24 A. I asked one of the guards who was there, who was taking down the

25 names of people who wanted to go see the doctor. That day, I remember

Page 3887

1 they said, "Wait until the chief commander arrives, Sikirica." He came.

2 That was Kajin. Damir Dosen was there. They put me in a small car. They

3 took me to the Prijedor hospital. They stayed in front of the doctor's

4 office. When I went into the office, I saw Dr. Ivic and a nurse that I

5 don't know. He just looked and said -- and told me that Alija Izetbegovic

6 should help me. The nurse made a gesture so that I shouldn't say

7 anything, and then she put some kind of liquid and gauze on my leg. And

8 then later Dosen and Sikirica took me back to the camp in the car. They

9 brought me back to Room 2.

10 Q. When did that occur? When were you taken out to the hospital?

11 A. As far as I can remember, it was before the 20th of July, maybe

12 two or three days. Perhaps it was the 17th or the 16th. I can't

13 remember. But I seem to remember the 20th.

14 Q. What is it that makes you remember the 20th of July? What

15 happened on that day?

16 A. Since we were allowed to leave and we were limited to how far we

17 could go by the hose, and as far as I remember, Zigic was there and they

18 hit me for no reason at all.

19 Q. When you say you were allowed to leave, do you mean leave the

20 room?

21 A. Yes, yes. We could all take a walk outside, all of us.

22 Q. And you've indicated that Zigic hit you on that occasion.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you suffer any further beatings while were you in the camp?

25 And if so, when?

Page 3888

1 A. On the 23rd of July, in the morning, we knew from the day before

2 that they were not getting food and water in Room 3. I and the other

3 prisoners collected some bread and water, which we tried -- which I tried

4 to give to those in the other room and that's when I was hit.

5 Q. Who hit you on that occasion?

6 A. As far as I can remember, it was again Zigic.

7 Q. And do you know whose shift was on duty on that occasion?

8 A. As far as I remember, Kajin was there. What Zigic was doing

9 there, I don't know. No, no. Maybe it was Fustar. I mix up those two

10 dates. It was most probably Fustar's shift.

11 Q. Now, after the massacre that took place in Room 3, did there come

12 a time when the command of the camp changed?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How many days after the Room 3 massacre was it when this change

15 took place?

16 A. Two or three days.

17 Q. Who was the new commander?

18 A. Marinko Sipka, a merchant from Prijedor.

19 Q. Did you know him prior to your detention at Keraterm camp, and if

20 so, in what circumstances?

21 A. I knew him because he was the chief of the metal shop warehouse

22 next to the cemetery, close to the cemetery. He was a foreman.

23 Q. What changes took place after he became the commander in the

24 camp?

25 A. They allowed us to clean the rooms, to have baths. Those who

Page 3889

1 wanted could even take a shave, because we had beards. As far as I

2 remember, there was no abuse.

3 Q. What I'd like you to do now, please, Witness W, is to look around

4 this room and indicate whether you can see the person Sikirica in this

5 room.

6 A. This gentleman there, in between these two gentleman straight

7 ahead, and he's slightly bald.

8 Q. What I'd like you to do is to indicate which row he's seated in,

9 and what I'd like you to do is to count the seats in the row, all of the

10 seats, and indicate, from left to right, which seat he's in.

11 A. He sits in the second chair from the beginning of the row, and the

12 number of persons is six. So from the passage, he's the second one.

13 Q. What I'd like you to do is going from left to right, from left to

14 right, I'd like you to count the seats and just indicate which number seat

15 he's in.

16 A. Five, seat number five.

17 MS. BALY: For the record, I'd ask that the witness has identified

18 the accused Mr. Sikirica.


20 MS. BALY:

21 Q. Now, will you do the same thing, please - [B/S/C translation] -

22 will you do the same thing, please, in relation to the person Damir Dosen,

23 also known as Kajin? Just adopt the same procedure, please.

24 A. He's the third from the left.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: And I would ask again that the record reflect

Page 3890

1 that the witness has identified the accused Damir Dosen.



4 Q. Witness W, Keraterm camp closed on the 5th of August, 1992. On

5 that day were you transferred to the Trnopolje camp?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And after some days, were you released?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Witness W, do you still suffer from the injuries you received

10 while you were in Keraterm camp?

11 A. Unfortunately, yes.

12 Q. And you indicated that your leg was badly beaten. Without showing

13 the Court your leg, just indicate what condition it is in now.

14 A. There are still wounds, even though I have been under treatment

15 ever since I came to the liberated territory. I often go to see the

16 doctor. The leg is black. There was a lot of damage to the blood

17 vessels, so that -- as a result of that, I also have an embolism in my

18 left lung.

19 MS. BALY: Yes. Thank you. No further questions.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly.

21 Mr. Greaves.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

23 Q. Witness W, can you help me please, about this: Before May-June,

24 1992, were you involved in any way in politics, whether as a member of a

25 political party or as an activist in a political party?

Page 3891

1 A. No.

2 Q. Subsequent to events involving Keraterm and Trnopolje, did you

3 serve, at any stage, in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Since events in 1992, have you had or do you continue to have any

6 form of relationship or contact with the intelligence or security services

7 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. No.

9 MR. GREAVES: May we go into private session, please, Your

10 Honour?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

12 [Private session]


14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 3892

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, open session.

11 [Open session]


13 Q. Witness W, in connection with matters involving Keraterm, is it

14 right that on the 26th and 28th of August of last year, 2000, you were

15 interviewed by and made a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor? I

16 think you answered yes, but it hasn't come up on the screen and I don't

17 know whether the interpreters heard your answer. Can you repeat your

18 answer, please?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Thank you. If you can remember to speak up because if you speak

21 softly, Witness W, the microphones don't always pick you up. All right?

22 Was the investigator who interviewed you on that -- those two days, Paul

23 Basham?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. All right.

Page 3893

1 A. I believe so.

2 Q. Do you recall that at the end of the interview, the interpreter

3 read over the statement to you in your own language? Do you remember

4 that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And having read it over, you signed a short declaration confirming

7 that the statement had been read over to you in your language and that it

8 was true to the best of your knowledge and recollection. Do you remember

9 that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you also signed -- sorry, you also initialled each page. Do

12 you recall doing that?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. And you signed -- also put your signature on the first page of the

15 document. Do you remember doing that?

16 A. I suppose so.

17 Q. It's right, isn't it, that when you were being interviewed, you

18 were shown a copy of a statement which you had made to the Bosnian

19 authorities, a statement dated the 21st of December, 1995? Do you recall

20 being shown that statement with that date?

21 A. Not 1995. 1994. As far as I can remember, 1995, 1994.

22 Q. Witness W, the statement that you made to the Office of the

23 Prosecutor contains within it this assertion: "This morning I was given

24 the opportunity to read a photocopy of the statement I made to the Bosnian

25 authorities about my experiences during the war. I note that the

Page 3894

1 photocopy of my statement bears the following number range stamped on each

2 page." And there is then a series of numbers given and you recognise the

3 signature, your signature, at the bottom of each page. I think this will

4 be a matter that is not disputed in any way by the Prosecution. The

5 statement which bears the numbers that you confirmed in your statement was

6 one that you made in December 1995. What you also said, Witness W, was

7 this: "I can confirm the statement remains an accurate account of my

8 experiences to the best of my memory." Then you said this: "Until now, I

9 have not been interviewed nor given another statement to any other

10 organisation or agency." Do you remember saying that?

11 A. I don't. I don't remember. It was a long time ago, after all.

12 Q. Is that the position, that apart from the one statement which you

13 went over with the investigator, you had made no other statement to

14 anybody? You had not been interviewed by anybody or seen by any other

15 organisation or agency in connection with matters in Keraterm or

16 Trnopolje? Is that the position?

17 A. I didn't give any other statements to anyone else.

18 Q. Witness W, that isn't true, is it?

19 A. Well, you must have been there, then. I have nothing else to

20 say. As far as I can remember, I am telling the truth.

21 Q. Where were you on the 4th of September, 1994?

22 A. Around in Travnik from Republika Srpska.

23 Q. Did you not on that date make a statement to the Ministry of the

24 Interior, the Security Services Centre for Banja Luka, that was then based

25 in Travnik? Do you remember doing that?

Page 3895













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3896

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And that was a statement made to a man called Zijad Ibric. Do you

3 recall that gentleman?

4 A. I do, but I haven't seen him for a long time.

5 Q. Where were you on the 29th of November, 1994, Witness W?

6 A. Bosnia.

7 Q. Still in Travnik?

8 A. Yes.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

10 microphone.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness W, you're being asked to come closer to

12 the microphone so that the interpreters may hear you better.

13 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Greaves.


15 Q. Did you not, on that date, the 29th of November, 1994, make two

16 further statements to Mr. Zijad Ibric? Do you recall doing that?

17 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

18 Q. One bearing a number 02-307, and the next one, sequentially,

19 02-308, both of them very short, both of them, I suggest, signed by you.

20 You don't recall doing that?

21 A. [No translation]

22 Q. And then we have your statement of 21st of December, 1995, and the

23 one made to the Office of the Prosecutor.

24 So when you asserted to the Office of the Prosecutor that you had

25 not given any other statement or been interviewed by any other

Page 3897

1 organisation or agency, it wasn't true, was it, Witness W?

2 A. I made only two statements, if I can remember well, the security

3 centre and the investigator.

4 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps if my learned friend would be so kind he

5 could be shown the Bosnian language versions of those three statements,

6 the one dated the 4th of September, 1994, and the two dated the 29th of

7 November. I'm grateful, as always, to my learned friend.

8 Q. Now, then, Witness W, do you have in front of you, first of all, a

9 document which will be headed "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

10 Ministry of the Interior," with a number, 02/89 and the date 4th of

11 September, 1994?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. Does that document have your signature on it?

14 A. It does.

15 Q. Do you also have in front of you a document which bears the

16 similar title, a number 02-307, and the date 29th November, 1994?

17 I don't think you'll find it in the text. Look at the top of one

18 of the next two documents, please, Witness W. Do you see again the title

19 "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina," and then underneath that a number and a

20 date? Do you see that?

21 A. I don't understand the question. Which year?

22 Q. Yes. Don't look at the document which has got several pages,

23 Witness W. Look at the other two that you have in your right hand. Do

24 you see at the top of the page "The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

25 Ministry of the Interior" and then another number, 02-307? Do you see

Page 3898

1 that?

2 A. I do. I do.

3 Q. Does that document bear your signature?

4 A. It does.

5 Q. And looking at the third document, please, do you see a similar

6 title to it, a different number, 02-308, and the date 29th November 1994?

7 Do you have that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Again, does that document bear your signature?

10 A. It does.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness W. For the moment, you needn't look at those

12 any more. Now, let me just approach it again, please, if I may.

13 When you asserted to Mr. Basham of the Office of the Prosecutor

14 that there were no other interviews and no other statements, do you accept

15 that that was not a truthful account of your having made statements and

16 given interviews?

17 A. I think that I'm telling only the truth. I was in the camp. In

18 those earlier statements that were given, they were -- those were at times

19 when I was in great pain, and because of that pain I was undergoing

20 hospital treatment.

21 Q. Well, let's move on, Witness W. The man, Sikirica, who worked at

22 Celpak, would you use, in relation to him and what he was doing at

23 Keraterm, the phrase "komandir," in your language?

24 A. No, not "komandir" but "commandant."

25 Q. "Commandant"?

Page 3899

1 A. "Sef commandant."

2 Q. And would you accept that the order "commandant" is different from

3 the word in your language "upravnik"?

4 A. They are two different things. "Upravnik" is one thing and

5 "commandant" is another thing.

6 Q. And so given what you've described Dusko Sikirica's role as, it

7 would not be right then to describe him as an upravnik? He was something

8 different, he was commandant?

9 A. That's how they addressed him.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves?

11 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Of course there will be re-examination, but it

13 seems to us you might as well let us know what "upravnik" is.

14 MR. GREAVES: I think it will become clear from my next set of

15 questions. If it isn't, please tell me and I will attempt to do better.

16 Q. Witness W, I'd like to draw your attention to the period

17 immediately after the serious killing took place in Room 3 and the closure

18 of the camp. You were present in Keraterm up until about the 5th of

19 August; is that correct?

20 A. It is.

21 Q. And the incident which has been described as the Room 3 massacre,

22 that took place on about the 24th, 25th of July; is that right?

23 A. As far as I can remember, between the 23rd and 24th, between the

24 24th and 25th. I repeat, as far as I can remember.

25 Q. And as you've told us, the person you knew as Marinko Sipka

Page 3900

1 arrived to take up his job at Keraterm two or three days after that

2 incident; is that correct?

3 A. It is.

4 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that his title was upravnik? Do you

5 accept that?

6 A. It's how I addressed him. I knew upravnik is right.

7 Q. And he replaced the former upravnik, didn't he?

8 A. Commandant.

9 Q. In your statement which you made on the 4th of September, 1994 --

10 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps he could have that statement back for the

11 moment, please. Thank you very much, Mr. Usher.

12 Q. Would you look at that document, please? Would you look at the

13 end of the document, Witness W? Would you look at the end of the

14 document, please? Not the beginning. The last page. Do you see at the

15 very foot of what is written there, your signature and the signature of

16 Mr. Zijad Ibric, an authorised official?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. Immediately above that pair of signatures, Witness W, does it say

19 this? "The citizen" - in other words you - "read the statement and has no

20 objections to it, everything he stated is true and therefore has signed

21 it. The citizen is ready to testify in court and to fill in the gaps in

22 the statement by giving new details or recollections." Is that what it

23 says?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, then, Witness W, I'd like to you look, please, in the body of

Page 3901

1 the statement, probably about two pages to the end, for a paragraph which

2 begins -- I saw you using glasses earlier on. Would you like to put your

3 glasses on, please? Because this is quite important. Can you see a

4 paragraph which begins, "The same night, half an hour after Hergic had

5 been killed, shooting and crying could be heard around hall number 3 --

6 Room 3"? Do you see that paragraph?

7 A. I do, yes.

8 Q. Would you look through the paragraph, please, and then you'll find

9 a sentence which begins, "When the army arrived, we would all hide and

10 there would be panic." Can you find that paragraph, please, that

11 sentence?

12 A. I can't find it.

13 Q. It will be about 17 -- 16 or 17 lines on from the initial

14 beginning of the paragraph. Witness W, can I help you, please? Have you

15 got page 3 there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you look about just below halfway and you will see, in bold,

18 capital letters, the name Marinko Sipka? Do you see that?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. Do you see that name?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Look immediately above that, and I think you may find the

23 statement to which I am referring, immediately after the word "heroes"

24 about three lines up. You see that?

25 A. I do, I do, yes.

Page 3902

1 Q. Just keep looking at that passage. I'm about to ask you some more

2 questions, Witness W. Keep looking at that passage, please. After that

3 passage -- that sentence about there being panic, it reads like this,

4 doesn't it? "On the third day after the crime, the camp administrator" --

5 and the word which you use is "upravnik," isn't it?

6 A. Yes, because that's what they call him, Marinko Sipka.

7 Q. Yes. "The camp administrator was replaced. A new administrator,"

8 a new upravnik, "arrived. His name was Marinko Sipka."

9 What I suggest to you, Witness W, is that the person who occupied

10 the post of administering the camp, as you have told us earlier, was

11 someone quite different from "commandant." That is why you told the

12 Bosnian authorities it was a -- it was the camp administrator who was

13 being replaced, and he was replaced by a new administrator, Marinko

14 Sipka. Isn't that it?

15 A. Let me tell you, you are playing around with words. I stand

16 behind the man who was called "commandant."

17 Q. Forgive me, Witness W, you told us earlier that upravnik and

18 commandant were two quite different positions. I suggest to you --

19 A. That's how I understand it.

20 Q. I suggest to you, Witness W, that when you use the phrase

21 "upravnik" and described him being replaced, it was someone who was

22 different from Dusko Sikirica.

23 A. No, that is not so. Dusko Sikirica was addressed as "sef" or

24 "commandant." And Marinko Sipka, when he introduced to us, said so, and

25 he also said about him, "I'm the new administrator" or "manager" or

Page 3903

1 "warden."

2 Q. The word "sef" would equate in our language to "chief," wouldn't

3 it, a slang word used of anybody who was somebody else's boss, whether in

4 civilian or military life? Would you accept that?

5 A. I wouldn't be able to answer this question because these are legal

6 interpretations and I'm not a lawyer.

7 Q. Wasn't the administrator of the company, the upravnik, somebody

8 called Zivko Knezevic?

9 A. I don't know anyone with that name.

10 Q. Let me just help you. Zivko Knezevic was a man who had -- was a

11 police officer in Prijedor before the war.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Does that refresh your memory as to his name and role?

14 A. I did not see Zivko Knezevic in the camp until it was disbanded,

15 that is, on the day when we went to Trnopolje.

16 Q. He was there that day, wasn't he, taking part in the transport of

17 people to Omarska and Trnopolje? Do you recall that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So when you made your statement to the Bosnian authorities on the

20 21st of December, 1995, did you not say this: "When the roll call was

21 over, the bus left. There were four or five Serbian policemen on that bus

22 guarding the prisoners. Among them I recognised," and there's an

23 illegible word and the name "Knezevic," "who had formally worked in the

24 Prijedor MUP. I heard from others in the Trnopolje camp that he had died

25 of a heart attack."

Page 3904

1 Now, does that refresh your memory of what Zivko Knezevic was

2 doing on the day when the camp was closed?

3 A. He was present, yes. I do claim that he was present.

4 Q. You see, I suggest that throughout your stay, he was, in fact, the

5 person who was the upravnik, the administrator of the camp.

6 A. I cannot say that, because until that day, I never saw him --

7 Q. If I --

8 A. -- with my own eyes.

9 Q. If as you assert, Witness W, Dusko Sikirica occupied the post, as

10 you claim now, of upravnik, why didn't you put his name when you made your

11 statement to the Bosnian authorities on the 4th of September, 1994? Why

12 didn't you simply say Sikirica was replaced?

13 A. Well, as far as I can remember, that is what I did. As far as I

14 can remember, yes, Sikirica was dismissed, yes.

15 Q. That wasn't the question. If you knew this person and had known

16 him at Celpak, why not simply say, "Sikirica was replaced. A new

17 administrator arrived"? Why simply leave it as "the camp administrator"

18 when describing this event?

19 A. I don't remember. I cannot recall that.

20 Q. It was because it was someone who was different from Dusko

21 Sikirica, and you didn't know or you couldn't remember the name of the

22 upravnik running the camp.

23 A. I'm here to speak the truth, and I do say that it was Dusko

24 Sikirica. So please don't resort to this, to that.

25 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I see that I have in fact finished that

Page 3905













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3906

1 passage, and I see the time. Is that a convenient moment?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. How much longer do you have?

3 MR. GREAVES: Probably about 20 minutes, I would say.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness W, we are going to take an adjournment of

5 25 minutes. We'll return at half past 11.00. During the adjournment, you

6 are not to discuss your evidence with anybody and that includes members of

7 the Prosecution team.

8 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.


12 Q. Witness W, it's right, isn't it, that as far as Dusko Sikirica is

13 concerned, you would only see him from time to time in the camp, in other

14 words, very infrequently? Do you accept that?

15 A. Yes. I said in my previous statement that I would see him

16 occasionally and also in the evening hours.

17 Q. And as far as any visits to the camp in the evening hours, that,

18 too, was only occasionally, would you accept that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you would not see him at night, in other words, after the

21 evening had finished?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And help me about this, please: Zoran Zigic, it's right, isn't

24 it, that he was not a guard? He was somebody who would come in from

25 outside the camp, in particular, at night. Do you accept that?

Page 3907

1 A. Yes. Zoran Zigic was a guard in Fustar's shift, after which he

2 was replaced, and then sometimes later he would come back occasionally.

3 Q. When you say "replaced," in fact isn't it the case that he was

4 removed from any activities at the camp because of what he had been

5 doing? Do you accept that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Zoran Zigic was someone who spent quite a lot of his time, when

8 ill treating detainees, trying to extort money from them. Would you

9 accept that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Indeed, would you accept that that was his principal motivation

12 when he was beating detainees, to try and get money out of them?

13 A. I can't claim that, but I know that he did extort money.

14 Q. And he operated in tandem with another individual called Duca

15 Knezevic; is that right?

16 A. I don't remember Duca Knezevic. I can't say, because I can't

17 remember.

18 Q. I'd like to turn now to the man whom you've named as Marinko

19 Sipka. Would you accept that you may have got that name wrong, Witness W,

20 and that in fact it was somebody called Marinko Sadzak, who was the person

21 who took over as upravnik?

22 A. I heard that his name was Marinko Sipka. I knew him. I know that

23 he was a merchant and he worked in the commercial enterprise of Metal, and

24 his nickname or they used to call him Marin.

25 Q. You say you heard his name. From whom did you hear it?

Page 3908

1 A. From the prisoners and from certain people, guards, which would

2 come by, and they would address him as Marinko Sipka.

3 Q. And --

4 A. Administrator.

5 Q. The metal workshop where this individual worked, can you put a

6 name to that workshop?

7 A. It wasn't a workshop. It was a shop. It was a commercial

8 enterprise. It was a yard for the sale of construction material.

9 Q. I'm sorry if I misunderstood the nature of the business, but did

10 that business, the construction yard, did that have a name?

11 A. You mean the company where Marinko worked?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Could you please repeat the question?

14 Q. Yes. The company which you've described as a construction yard, a

15 place where you could buy construction materials, where Marinko Sipka, as

16 you describe him, worked, did that business have a name?

17 A. Metal Banja Luka commercial enterprise. Metal Banja Luka.

18 Q. And Witness W, other people have ascribed a different name to him,

19 the one I put to you earlier, Marinko Sadzak. Is it the case that you

20 didn't know the man's name before you saw him as the upravnik at Keraterm,

21 but you knew him by sight?

22 A. I knew him by sight, and I know that they called him Marinko

23 before the war. The last name I am not too sure. As far as I remember,

24 it was Sipka.

25 Q. All right. After his arrival at Keraterm, you did not see Dusko

Page 3909

1 Sikirica again; would you accept that?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. Can you just help me about this, Witness W, which room were you

4 held in?

5 A. Two.

6 Q. In that room, was there an individual who was formerly a pilot, a

7 military pilot, called Bajazit Jakupovic? Do you know him?

8 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

9 MR. GREAVES: All right. Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves. Mr. Petrovic?

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Sir, could you please tell me, did you know Kajin's parents?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. Do you know what their name was?

16 A. Mihajlo Ljubica. Sorry, Mihajlo and Ljubica.

17 Q. Do you remember what Kajin's mother was called?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please pause between question

19 and answer?

20 Q. Do you know why the brothers Drasko and Damir were called Kajin?

21 A. Because their father, Mihajlo, was called Kija.

22 Q. If I understand you well, they were both called Kajin?

23 A. Yes, especially Damir Kajin.

24 Q. You say that you knew his parents. What kind of people were they?

25 A. I know them as good people.

Page 3910

1 Q. You gave, and you confirmed this indirectly in response to my

2 question -- to my colleague, Mr. Greaves, a statement in 1994, when you

3 arrived at Travnik. I will read a part of that statement and I would ask

4 you to give me your commentary. On page 2 of the statement, you state the

5 following: "From the guards I know Kajin and Kolundzija Dragan. I didn't

6 see them beat people. They even helped us." Do you remember you said

7 that?

8 A. Yes, I do, and that is correct.

9 Q. Did Kajin help people regarding going to the hospital?

10 A. Yes, he did.

11 Q. Did he help in such a way that he would let people leave their

12 room and be outside the room during the day?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did he help by not limiting access to water?

15 A. I can't say, because water would come from time to time.

16 Q. But when it did come, is it true that Kajin did not do anything to

17 prevent your access to the water, quite to the contrary?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. In the statement, you say from the guards: "I know Kajin and

20 Kolundzija." In that statement, you indicate that they are guards.

21 A. Well, maybe that's what is stated, but I remember them as shift

22 leaders and commanders of the guard.

23 Q. In that statement, why didn't you say komandir or shift leader

24 Kajin or komandir or shift leader Kolundzija? But you are doing that for

25 the first time in 1995.

Page 3911

1 A. Because I came out to the free territory with a lot of pain, and I

2 find it very difficult to remember that statement. It's something that --

3 my memory of that statement sort of filters through the pain that I had at

4 that time.

5 Q. Or was it because you felt -- you thought they were guards, just

6 like all the others at that time?

7 A. I don't think that.

8 Q. But if they were shift commanders at that time, of course you

9 would have told the official, Zijad Ibric, that that's what they were?

10 A. I answered that previously.

11 Q. Could you please tell us why you didn't say that at that time?

12 A. I don't remember. I was ill. I had difficulty reaching Travnik.

13 Q. What reminded you about the fact that they were shift leaders

14 later?

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the witness's

16 answer to that question.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness W, would you repeat the answer?

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Could you please repeat what you said, if the Court permits. I

20 asked you: What reminded you later that they were shift leaders?

21 A. The pain from the camp that I still bear today. I think that is a

22 sufficient answer.

23 Q. Believe me, I sympathise with your pain and everything that you

24 went through, but it is important for you to answer my question and to be

25 precise, if that's possible, since your pain is something that none of us

Page 3912

1 here question in any way. The only thing that I'm interested in is what

2 is it that reminded you that this was not a guard but it was a person who

3 was a shift leader?

4 A. Because he took me for doctor's examinations and that they called

5 him sef komandir. I don't know in what other way I could define it for

6 you.

7 Q. Did anybody perhaps remind you of that?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Could you please make a pause between my question and your answer

10 so that the interpreters could translate everything that I ask you and

11 your complete response.

12 Did you talk with anybody, in that period since 1994 onwards,

13 about who was in Keraterm, who played what role?

14 A. I don't remember that I did. I don't like to be reminded of

15 things like that.

16 Q. After that period, did you talk with people who were either at

17 Keraterm or who know about it from some other source?

18 A. I don't remember. I don't think that I did. I don't like to talk

19 about the camp.

20 Q. Does that mean that since that time, until the time you gave your

21 statement to the investigator, you did not discuss that with anyone?

22 A. Perhaps not even with my family, because I've been constantly away

23 for medical treatment, and this is something that's well known.

24 Q. Did these memories begin to fade in view of the fact that you

25 don't talk about it with anybody and that a full nine years has passed

Page 3913

1 since then?

2 A. The 20th and -- the 20th and the 24th of July will never fade from

3 my memory.

4 Q. But it's possible that some details have faded from your memory.

5 It's simply been too many years since then.

6 A. Yes, probably they have, and this is why I cannot answer to all of

7 the questions. I am not a computer, and I'm not able to remember

8 everything after nine or ten years.

9 Q. Yes, I respect that, but it is also possible that some things have

10 become confused, that events are correct, but some details from these

11 events have become mixed up, and this is possible in few of the fact that

12 nine years have passed.

13 A. Yes, this is possible, but the things that I personally

14 experienced, they cannot fade or be confused.

15 Q. I would like to ask you something that I would like you not to

16 understand as an attempt to avoid or belittle your experiences, but I must

17 ask you. Is it true that you arrived at Keraterm with a leg that was

18 already in a bad state?

19 A. My leg did hurt, and I said that in the statement.

20 Q. If I'm not mistaken, you had thrombosis at that time before

21 Keraterm?

22 A. Yes. Yes, that's true, and I said that.

23 Q. You mentioned several times today a person named Banovic.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In a strange way, in all the statements after 1994, you do not

Page 3914

1 mention a very interesting detail and which I will read to you. So I

2 would like you to tell me why you never mentioned that to anybody again.

3 In the statement, you said -- you talk about how food was

4 distributed and then you say the following: "I asked guard Banovic - his

5 father used to be a schoolmaster - why there was not enough food."

6 Do you remember that?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. Is it true that he told you then that some people ate two or three

9 times a day and some did not get any meal because of that?

10 A. Not two or three times a day but two or three meals, and then some

11 of us don't have a meal because of that.

12 Q. Is that true?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Is it true that you complained to him that you didn't eat anything

15 for nine days?

16 A. Yes. I couldn't take the hunger any longer. I had to ask him. I

17 didn't care if I lived or died. But then it happened that we were given

18 food after all.

19 Q. Is it true that then he called all those who hadn't eaten and that

20 60 people responded?

21 A. Yes, it's true.

22 Q. Is it true that he provided food for everybody?

23 A. Yes. That's what he said. He said that he was providing food for

24 all of us who hadn't eaten.

25 Q. Is it true that he said that he introduced some kind of order into

Page 3915













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3916

1 the food distribution?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Am I mistaken when I say that Banovic was the person who

4 determined how food would be distributed and it was --

5 A. That day. That day when I asked him.

6 Q. Please wait for me to ask the question and then you will be able

7 to say in response to my question.

8 Is it true that after that, after you complained to Banovic, order

9 was introduced in the way food is being distributed?

10 A. Yes, that day.

11 Q. And then you say here, "In half an hour he provided food, and the

12 next day a line of food was organised."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So after he intervened, order was introduced into food

15 distribution?

16 A. Yes. Then we would go by the rooms we were in, by the

17 dormitories, by the halas [phoen].

18 Q. So as far as you know, he's somebody who introduced order into the

19 way people went to get their meals?

20 A. I can only respond that that day, they went to -- they went from

21 room to room. Food wasn't given to everybody all at once.

22 Q. Could you please tell us why, in none other statement except for

23 this one from 1994, you did not mention and you did not tell any of the

24 investigators that you never saw Kajin beat anyone and that Kajin helped

25 all of you?

Page 3917

1 A. I did not see him beat anybody, and I didn't say anything like

2 that in the statement.

3 Q. Why did you not tell anybody that Kajin helped all of you?

4 A. As far as I remember, I did. He helped me personally.

5 Q. Did the investigators ask you what he was like?

6 A. They probably did. I don't know. I don't remember. I cannot

7 remember.

8 Q. When you say he helped you, you probably think of -- are thinking

9 of the situation when he took you to the hospital; is that right?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. When you went inside the hospital, Kajin remained in front of the

12 doctor's office that you went into; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. It is also correct that you did not see whether Kajin communicated

15 with the medical staff that were -- who were in the office?

16 A. No, I didn't see, because I was so afraid, so I really didn't see

17 anything.

18 Q. It is true that on that occasion, you were given medical

19 assistance of some sort?

20 A. Yes, yes. This was provided by the medical assistant, by the

21 nurse.

22 Q. What did the nurse do? What kind of medical care did you

23 receive?

24 A. I got some -- I got some gauze on my leg and she poured some kind

25 of liquid on it.

Page 3918

1 Q. Did this process -- this ailment that you had on your leg, was

2 this alleviated? Was the situation improved with this treatment?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did these people at least try, in view of the nature of your

5 illness, to make your illness a little better, this nurse, by what she

6 did?

7 A. Well, probably at that moment it did, but later on, I did not dare

8 report for any more medical assistance.

9 Q. How many times exactly were you beaten at Keraterm?

10 A. Four times. Once I was really beaten --

11 Q. Please, could you wait until I ask my question and then you will

12 have enough time to respond. In your statement from 1994, which you wrote

13 and signed, speaking about things that cannot be forgotten - as you stated

14 a few minutes ago, you don't forget when you were beaten - why did you say

15 that you were beaten only once?

16 A. Maybe that is what I was asked. I don't remember.

17 Q. You were probably asked how many times were you beaten, and in

18 that statement, you describe in detail how it happened, you describe that

19 you were beaten only once.

20 A. On the 16th, on the 12th, I won't forget the 12th, the 20th, and

21 the 23rd of July.

22 Q. What kind of a question do you think you were asked if you

23 answered that you had been beaten only once?

24 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

25 Q. How should the question -- how should the question asking you

Page 3919

1 about your beatings in Keraterm be worded to elicit the answer that you

2 were beaten only once?

3 A. I do not know because I know that I was beaten four times, but I

4 remember best that beating of the 12th, because the rest of it was with

5 hands and feet, and on the 12th it was all sorts of things.

6 Q. But does that mean that were you beaten only on the 12th, and that

7 on those other occasions, those were perhaps only a blow or two in

8 passing?

9 A. That's what you say, but I say the opposite. Those blows hurt.

10 Q. Then why in your statement of the 4th of September, 1994, you say

11 that "until the 12th of July, nobody laid a finger on me?" Why do you say

12 that?

13 A. Well, perhaps it had slipped my mind at that moment, because I was

14 in terrible pain when I was making that statement and I was taken to the

15 hospital that same day, that is correct. You wanted to make me to tell

16 untruth but I'm here to tell the truth, and I was in the camp, excuse me.

17 Q. I not once said you had not been in the camp nor that you did not

18 suffer a great deal. All I'm trying to do is - and I ask you to help me -

19 to clarify when did you say what and why did you say that. Of course, if

20 you remember it. If you do not, we shall all accept it. So you claim

21 here that "until the 12th of July, nobody beat me. These are not things

22 that one forgets." You just -- you said a moment ago that one doesn't

23 forget it. You gave the exact dates when it happened.

24 A. Because I was hurt most, the greatest pain was inflicted me on the

25 12th. Nobody mentions the expert team who interrogated there, that they

Page 3920

1 were practically the former officers of the Prijedor police, Modic and

2 others.

3 Q. Please, will you answer my questions? Don't be flustered. If you

4 answer my questions precisely and accurately, we shall be over quicker.

5 So at that moment, you did not remember that anybody had beaten

6 you prior to the 12th of July.

7 A. I answer responsibly that I was in such pain, and I'm telling only

8 the truth and that it was as I said it was. I have nothing else to say.

9 Q. But a few lines below that, you describe how your name was

10 mispronounced by Kondic and how he beat you, and then towards the end of

11 your description of that event, you said that, "As of then, I was not

12 abused physically."

13 A. I do not remember.

14 Q. But this is a statement that you read and signed. How could you

15 read it and sign something that obviously does not reflect accurately what

16 you experienced?

17 A. I cannot say now. It was a long time ago.

18 Q. But is it possible that you began to be confused about certain

19 things at that time already and that they began to fade from your memory?

20 A. No. It was when I was being treated in Tuzla when my memory began

21 to come back and when I began to remember things. But if I said

22 everything that I had gone through in my own town, I could write a novel

23 then.

24 Q. But I'm asking you very specifically and concretely things that

25 directly concern you. But never mind. Let's move on to the next

Page 3921

1 question.

2 When were you interrogated, at the beginning of your stay or in

3 the latter part of your stay?

4 A. You mean Keraterm?

5 Q. Yes, of course Keraterm.

6 A. On the 16th of June, as far as I can remember.

7 Q. Will you please help me and tell me how is it that you remember

8 all those days? How is it?

9 A. It's owing to my hand, which I will have as long as I live. The

10 cigarette. You can see it right here.

11 Q. No, no, no. I don't doubt you, and I told you, and I'm very

12 sorry, if that means anything to you, but my question is: How is it that

13 you remember the dates?

14 A. Well, when it hurts, then you do remember.

15 Q. But did you relate that particular date to something specific?

16 Was it somebody's birthday or did somebody die on that particular day?

17 Did anything happen that would refresh your memory, nine years later, that

18 it was precisely on the 16th?

19 A. I cannot remember that. I didn't care about birthdays or

20 anything. There was this terror, this terrible fear.

21 Q. Well, it is precisely because of this fear and the suffering that

22 you went through perhaps you did not remember certain things correctly.

23 Perhaps you forgot certain things.

24 A. Well, I suppose I did, because I did not mention them in my

25 statement.

Page 3922

1 Q. What did those interrogators ask you?

2 A. All I remember is when Radetic asked me where was my grandfather,

3 then put out his cigarette, and when Branko Siljeg hit me. And then who

4 am I, what am I, where are my folk, and those things.

5 Q. That is all that you can remember about your interrogation that

6 day?

7 A. Yes. They asked me if I had any weapons. As I said, I didn't, I

8 never had any, which is true, and some other things that I don't

9 remember.

10 Q. Did they ask you about who was the SDA president?

11 A. They did.

12 Q. And what did you answer?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. And when else did they ask you about who the president of the SDA

15 was?

16 A. When they beat me on the 12th, who was the president.

17 Q. A moment ago, you said that in the hospital you were also asked

18 who was the SDA president.

19 A. Well, can't remember right now, but in the hospital, I was told

20 that Alija should help me.

21 Q. Perhaps I did not quote -- I didn't give you the exact quote, so I

22 apologise.

23 A moment ago, you said that Zigic used to work with Fustar in the

24 beginning, isn't it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3923

1 Q. But we can agree that you cannot exactly remember when did Zigic

2 stop working on Fustar's shift?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. So it could have been two days, four days, or maybe 20 days?

5 A. Less than 20 but more than two days.

6 Q. You also said in your statement, and awhile ago you answered my

7 learned friend's question, that Zigic came often to ask for money from

8 people; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. It is quite true that he came and tried to extort it.

10 Q. No. I'm asking you only if you can accurately -- is it correct,

11 is it true that you stated that Zigic used to come often and extort

12 money?

13 A. True.

14 Q. Then will you please tell me, how is it that you remember about

15 one of those incidents when Zigic came and seized the money? How do you

16 remember that it was on Kajin's shift?

17 A. I remember how he came one evening. He came to the door, escorted

18 by -- I can't remember who, and said, "Well, put together a thousand DM."

19 And Sakic, Ibrahim Sakic, tradesman, salesman from Prijedor, collected the

20 money. Now, how much, I don't remember. I don't know.

21 Q. Yes, you've already told us that.

22 A. And Kajin stood in the immediate vicinity.

23 Q. Let me ask you this: During the direct examination, you said, and

24 I hope I won't misquote you, "I think it was Kajin's shift." When

25 somebody says, "I think it was Kajin's shift," that means that he is not

Page 3924

1 sure that it was Kajin's shift. Is that true?

2 A. Yes, it's true. I think it was Kajin's shift. As far as I can

3 remember, I saw Kajin in the moonlight, because Room 2 had the best

4 overview of what was happening at the entrance into the camp.

5 Q. But it could be that it wasn't Kajin's shift if you say, "I

6 think"?

7 A. Well I cannot confirm that it was so.

8 Q. But you do not -- you do not claim with absolute certainty that it

9 was Kajin's shift? You're not hundred per cent sure about that?

10 A. I only say as far as I remember.

11 Q. So it is possible that it wasn't on Kajin's shift. There is a

12 certain degree of probability it wasn't on Kajin's shift?

13 A. Well, I wouldn't put it that way.

14 Q. Was it dark that night?

15 A. There was moonlight. I'm telling you it was at night-time.

16 Q. Yes. I understand that it is dark at night. What I'm asking --

17 was it dark? I mean were there any lights in Keraterm?

18 A. Well, I know there was a lamp next to the fence.

19 Q. I'm asking you about that night, very precisely, that night. Were

20 there any lights on, artificial lights, were they on in Keraterm?

21 A. I don't remember. I remember there was a moonlight. It was a

22 nice night as far as the weather is concerned.

23 Q. How far was that person whom you saw in the moonlight from the

24 place where you were?

25 A. Well, roughly in the immediate vicinity. About 10 or 15 metres

Page 3925













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3926

1 from -- away from the door of the hall.

2 Q. And where were you at that moment?

3 A. I was at the front door, on the first pallet.

4 Q. And was that hall dark at that moment?

5 A. Lights were on. I told you, in the hall next to the wire fence,

6 there was something. I don't remember what. And from there, the light

7 reached the hall.

8 Q. We are again confusing things.

9 A. No, we are not confusing anything. Will you allow me to answer?

10 Q. Was -- were there any lights on in that room that night?

11 A. There was -- there were never any lights in the room, directly in

12 the room.

13 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in point of fact, you saw only a

14 silhouette in the moonlight, as you told us awhile ago?

15 A. I don't know what you mean by this.

16 Q. Well, will you confirm that that is actually what you saw? That

17 what you saw was the silhouette of a man some 15 metres away from the hall

18 and in the moonlight; is that correct?

19 A. The truth is that I saw, and I repeat what I said in my statement,

20 that it was the person whom I indicated.

21 Q. So even now, you are not hundred per cent sure who that was?

22 A. Is this enough?

23 Q. No, this is not enough. It is not enough. I'm asking you about

24 that night?

25 A. Well, I'm telling you about that night.

Page 3927

1 Q. I'm asking you about that night. If 15 metres away from the room

2 that you are in, in complete darkness, in the moonlight, and you see

3 somebody, could it be that it is somebody else and not that man, because

4 it's dark, because it's moonlight, because you're afraid, because it was

5 nine years ago?

6 A. I remember those 100 dollars of mine which I gave that night. I

7 wasn't about to tell you this but I -- well, now I say --

8 Q. Well, why didn't you tell us if you -- if you -- if you swore that

9 you would tell us everything?

10 A. Well, because the memories come back and because you made me say

11 that.

12 Q. Then why -- if you are all so sure about that, why did you answer

13 my learned friend when you -- why did you say, "I think it was Kajin's

14 shift"? Why weren't you as sure then as you are now?

15 A. Well, I keep repeating I think it is Kajin's shift. That is what

16 I say. I think it was Kajin's shift. I think it was Damir Dosen's team,

17 and I think it was 15 metres.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, you should be moving on to another

19 point now.

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour, but this is

21 missing from the transcript. The witness has said, "I think it was he."

22 And that is missing from the transcript. And that is what the witness

23 said, "I think, I guess, I assume that it was he."

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's noted, yes.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, we did not hear

Page 3928

1 that.

2 Q. You also said during your examination-in-chief that that person

3 whom you saw in the moonlight, that you were not sure if that person had

4 seen Zigic taking the money or doing something else. Is that correct?

5 A while ago, you said how Zigic and Kondic together beat you.

6 Now, on which of those four occasions that you mentioned?

7 A. I think it was around the 20th or the 23rd of July. I'm not quite

8 sure, but it was those three days.

9 Q. When you spoke about that ill treatment on the 20th of July, you

10 say that, and you confirm it now, and you say -- you put it in these

11 words: "On the 20th of July, I was taken out of hangar 2 by Zigic and

12 Kondic, who beat me, and as they beat me, there were with them some guards

13 I didn't know." Is that correct?

14 A. Yes. I didn't know them.

15 Q. You also, I think, said a while ago that you were not sure that it

16 was on the 20th of July, that it could have been a day before that or a

17 day later, that you were not as sure as about the 12th?

18 A. Yes, because the beating was not as bad as on the 12th.

19 Q. So it could have been the 19th or the 21st, for instance?

20 A. As far as I can remember, it was the 20th.

21 Q. But you just said that you were not quite sure, that it could have

22 been a day before or a day later, that you were not 100 per cent sure, if

23 I understood you well.

24 A. Well, these are not happy memories, I repeat. So that -- but I'd

25 say it was the 20th after all.

Page 3929

1 Q. On the 23rd of July, once again when you tried to help those

2 people who were locked up in Room 3, Zigic ill treated you; is that

3 correct?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. Is it correct that in neither of these two occasions was Kajin

6 present?

7 A. As far as I can remember, I think he was present on one of the

8 occasions.

9 Q. You mean one of those two?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Which one?

12 A. I think it should be the 20th, I think.

13 Q. So you are not sure? Maybe but you are not sure?

14 A. Oh, come on, you are being beaten and then you are expected to

15 remember everything and retain everything in your memory? Come on.

16 Q. That is what I'm trying to say, that you were ill treated and that

17 in view of that, and in view of the circumstances, it is quite natural

18 that you could not see who was there and who was present. That is what

19 I'm saying, with all due respect for the pain that you suffered on that

20 occasion. Is that true?

21 A. Let me tell you it is true, but we knew exactly which shift came

22 on when, and we also knew which one was the most dangerous one, and that

23 was Fustar's, headed by Kondic.

24 Q. So in that situation, when you feared for your life, and you were

25 only afraid, concerned about your life, you could not be sure who was

Page 3930

1 around you. Later on, perhaps you might try to reconstruct who was there

2 only on the strength of which shift was on rather than whom you saw in

3 that particular situation?

4 A. Well then, in that shift, then its commander was also there.

5 Q. But then it is also possible that he wasn't there, because you say

6 that if they were absent -- if they were ever absent --

7 A. That's what you say, excuse me.

8 Q. No. What I'm asking you is to clarify one thing.

9 A. I've explained it all to you.

10 Q. Please do not interrupt me. Let me ask you my question and then

11 will you please answer the question if you can and want to. If you don't,

12 then never mind. So if you said that they were there most of the time as

13 shift leaders, then it is quite possible that now and then they were

14 absent, even at the time of when the shift they belonged to was on duty?

15 A. I have no answer to that.

16 Q. But I'd like to ask you to try to answer it. I think that this

17 question is proper.

18 A. You want to get me to answer that he was not there even if he was

19 there, and I say that he was there.

20 Q. I'm saying, and will you please tell us, if there is any sense in

21 what you are saying, and if you say that they were there and maybe they

22 were not there but they were there most of the time, that it is quite

23 possible that on a particular occasion he was not there. If that is

24 possible, yes. If it is not possible, tell us that is not possible.

25 A. Well, to me it is possible.

Page 3931

1 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, in all your -- in all these

2 statements, referring to the 20th of July and the 23rd of July, you never

3 mention, not once, that Kajin was present or, as we see that perhaps he

4 wasn't present, that it was his shift. Why is that so?

5 A. Well, perhaps I did not remember it at that particular moment.

6 Q. And what reminded you?

7 A. I already said and repeat it, the pain I feel.

8 Q. I can understand it as a man, but I cannot understand it when it

9 comes to the process of memory. What is it that reminded you? But never

10 mind, if you cannot answer it, it doesn't matter.

11 For how many days after you arrived in Keraterm you did not leave

12 the room that you were locked in?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Well, roughly?

15 A. Well, it could have been two or three days. I went to the toilet,

16 pardon the expression. Until -- until as far as I can remember, until I

17 was taken for the interrogation.

18 Q. If I understood you well a moment ago during the

19 examination-in-chief, you said that Banovic struck you as he took you from

20 the place where you were up the stairs in the administrative building; is

21 that correct?

22 A. It is.

23 Q. Then tell me, please, why did you say a while ago that Kajin did

24 not protect you at the time when you describe the exit from the room and

25 up the stairs to the investigator's room? Why didn't you ever say that

Page 3932

1 Kajin was present there?

2 A. As far as I remember, I did say that he had been there, but how

3 much had he seen and whether he wanted to protect me, I can't say that,

4 whether he wanted to or not.

5 Q. So possibly he did not see what was happening to you?

6 A. Anything is possible. There were very many of us in the camp.

7 Q. And did you -- because you knew Kajin, did you expect him to

8 protect you from that man?

9 A. Well, I suppose so.

10 Q. And had he seen it, would he have protected you?

11 A. That I do not know.

12 Q. Is it something that in view of how that man behaved and what he

13 was like, you would have expected him to protect you, had he seen that?

14 A. Very likely.

15 Q. In the statement that you did not repeat together in its entirety,

16 among other things because you were not asked about it, you spoke about an

17 incident where Zigic fired a prisoner in the leg, a prisoner who was in

18 the room?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you accept what I put to you, that it happened on the 14th of

21 June? Could it have happened on the 14th?

22 A. I do not remember the date. I know that it happened.

23 Q. But was it perhaps a day before people were taken to the hospital

24 on the 15th of June?

25 A. I don't remember.

Page 3933

1 Q. Was this perhaps two days before you were interrogated?

2 A. I said I don't remember. My memory's really not so good to be

3 able to say what day that was. I know that I was in Room 2 then. It was

4 Judge Jakupovic.

5 Q. Did you know in the beginning that there were two guard shifts

6 which guarded the prisoners?

7 A. I don't remember that, no.

8 Q. Do you know that Kole and Kajin, for a long time, worked together

9 in one shift?

10 A. I don't know that. That is not something that I know.

11 Q. Can you tell us approximately when the quarrel between Kole and

12 Zigic took place?

13 A. I cannot remember the date and the time, but I know that Kole

14 prevented him on that day, and I claim that responsibly, but I do not

15 remember what date it was.

16 Q. Can you explain to me, in the statements you gave to the Bosnian

17 authorities, you talk about Saponja?

18 A. Yes, I remember.

19 Q. And it says there it -- statement contains his personal ID

20 number. Is it possible today you didn't even know your own ID number?

21 Many of us don't know such a number. How is it possible that in this

22 statement that you gave to the Bosnian authorities, how did you know the

23 personal ID number of the person called Saponja?

24 A. I don't remember giving anything -- something like that. I can't

25 even remember my own number. So I don't remember.

Page 3934

1 Q. Well I wonder as well, because it's not logical. In that

2 statement which you gave, there is the personal ID number of the person

3 called Saponja. This is the statement that you gave to Zijad Ibric on the

4 29th of November, 1994. How did that information appear in the

5 statement?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. This statement and the other statements, were they typed while you

8 were there, in your presence?

9 A. I don't remember whether they were typed or handwritten, but they

10 were written out, noted down.

11 Q. Does that mean that these statements were written and then you

12 would subsequently come and sign them?

13 A. I don't remember coming back subsequently. I don't think I did.

14 Q. Could you please clarify, the Jakupovic that Zigic injured, who is

15 that?

16 A. Jakupovic Sulejman, Suljo.

17 Q. Regarding this statement that you gave to Zijad Ibric, did you

18 read that statement before you signed it or was it just given to you for

19 signature by Ibric?

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness's

21 answer.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, we didn't get the answer to that

23 question.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that yes, he read

25 it. I apologise, Your Honours. I didn't follow the transcript, but the

Page 3935













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3936

1 witness said that he did read the statement.

2 Q. When you read the statement -- because of the transcript, because

3 of the Court, could you please tell us whether you read the statement. Is

4 that true?

5 A. Yes, I did. It's true.

6 Q. So how did this number appear in your statement if you read it?

7 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

8 Q. Did you ask why is there something in the statement that you did

9 not say?

10 A. I don't remember that. I can't remember that.

11 Q. Do you remember whether you said this about the number?

12 A. I do not remember anything about that number.

13 Q. In one of your statements, you said that the day after the

14 massacre, you were locked up in the room until the late afternoon hours.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You also said that at that time when you came out of the room, the

17 area in front of Room 3 was still wet, the asphalt part in front of that

18 room?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Since it was summer, that would mean that this area was wet or

21 water was poured over it immediately before that.

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. I have one more question.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If I can just ask for private

25 session for a moment. I actually have two questions that I need to ask in

Page 3937

1 private session.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Open session, yes.

18 [Open session]

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

20 Honours.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. Mr. Petrovic, did you

22 intend to tender the statement you cross-examined on?

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

24 the statement from 1994, and I propose that this be admitted into

25 evidence. Thank you very much.

Page 3938

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, was it your intention to tender any

2 statement that you have cross-examined on?

3 MR. GREAVES: I rather suspect that as my learned friend

4 Mr. Petrovic has invited you to do so, then that may well be the case.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, if I can be heard. If we can -- to

6 answer that question, if we can have an opportunity just to caucus for a

7 moment either at the break, then we'll be able to answer the question

8 directly for the Court. I don't know if it's necessary at this point,

9 respectfully, to determine whether or not that exhibit should or should

10 not be entered. I think if the Court will indulge us a short opportunity

11 after our cross-examination, then we'll make that decision.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, certainly. Certainly, yes.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: So we'll reserve on that.


15 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan. Mr. Ostojic.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Witness W. I'm going to ask you a series of

20 questions today in connection with some of your testimony both on direct

21 examination and of the four or so statements that you've issued to various

22 investigatory entities.

23 Initially, sir, in your direct examination and two or so years

24 after your being in Keraterm camp, you stated that "Dragan Kolundzija

25 helped us." In essence, I think the term was that "Both Kajin and Dragan

Page 3939

1 Kolundzija helped us."

2 Do you remember that testimony?

3 A. For Kolundzija, I did, and I think for Dosen as well.

4 Q. And I'm referring to your statement of September 4, 1994, wherein

5 in fact you state, "They," meaning Kajin, and Dragan Kolundzija, "helped

6 us," just so you have a reference. Is that fair?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you list for this Court exactly how it is that Dragan

9 Kolundzija helped you?

10 A. He would prevent Zigic in his intention or any other unknown

11 persons that would come into the camp from abusing and beating us, that is

12 all.

13 Q. Now, in fact, Mr. Kolundzija was helping not only you but all the

14 detainees, and that's why in your statement of September 4 --

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. -- 1994, you expressly state that he helped, quote, us, unquote

17 correct?

18 A. Us, us. Not only me but us.

19 Q. Let me discuss with you, if I may, just quickly because there is

20 some confusion or at least -- there may be some confusion with respect to

21 certain terms. Sir, you mentioned during your direct examination that you

22 worked at a factory, and my question to you with respect to your job

23 duties at the factory, were you ever known as a quote, commandant, end

24 quote, of that factory?

25 A. No.

Page 3940

1 Q. Sir, with respect to your job duties at the factory where you were

2 employed, were you ever known as quote, komandir, end quote, at the

3 factory?

4 A. No.

5 Q. With respect to your job duties at the factory, were you ever

6 known as quote, sef, end quote, at the factory?

7 A. Perhaps some of the workers would address me by using those

8 words.

9 Q. Were you ever known, sir, as a quote, direktor, end quote, at the

10 factory?

11 A. No.

12 Q. On August -- on August 26th and 28th of 2000 when you gave your

13 statement to the Prosecutor, how did you describe your former employment?

14 A. [redacted]

15 Q. And in fact, the way it's interpreted, in English in any event, on

16 this witness statement on the first page where it says "former:" it's

17 quote, [redacted] at factory, end quote, isn't it?

18 A. Well, [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 Q. My question is, though, that each of those words that we just

22 discussed "commandant," "komandir," "sef," et cetera, "direktor," all

23 those words have different meanings; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Let me direct your attention with respect to some of the

Page 3941

1 conditions at the camp during your stay there from June 11th, 1992. Isn't

2 it true that in fact Kole permitted access for the detainees to leave the

3 room and to walk outside in the pista area?

4 A. Yes, he did.

5 Q. Isn't it also true, sir, that Mr. Dragan Kolundzija, whom I

6 referenced to as Kole earlier, permitted the detainees to establish

7 contact via family for numerous reasons during their stay at Keraterm

8 camp?

9 A. I heard that. I heard that he did.

10 Q. And on how many occasions did you hear that, sir?

11 A. I can't remember whether it was once or several times, but mainly

12 all of us couldn't wait for Kole's shift to arrive.

13 Q. I understand that, sir. I'm trying to direct my questions

14 regarding Kole's shift specifically. Isn't it true that you were told by

15 more than one detainee that in fact Kole permitted and allowed detainees

16 to use the telephone in order to contact family and friends to bring food,

17 clothing, medicine and other supplies?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Sir, let me direct your attention to the issue that you mention

20 with Mr. -- or with Zoran Zigic during your direct examination. I think

21 you testified, or isn't it true, that in fact Dragan Kolundzija was the

22 only shift commander who would not allow Zoran Zigic to beat the

23 detainees?

24 A. I saw that personally. I can't claim that for the others. I

25 didn't see that. I'm only talking about what I saw.

Page 3942

1 Q. I understand that, sir. My question is with respect to Dragan

2 Kolundzija. In fact, he did not allow Zoran Zigic to beat any detainees

3 at Keraterm camp during your stay there; correct?

4 A. From what I saw, he did not permit them to do that.

5 Q. And in fact, earlier, I think, in your testimony, you told us that

6 Kole prevented access to the camp by other individuals who sought to

7 persecute and murder detainees at the Keraterm camp; isn't that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. Can you tell us, sir, on how many different occasions such as

10 those that you've just described, when Kole prevented access to the camp

11 by Zigic and other individuals, when Kole in fact stopped or prevented

12 others from harming detainees, on how many instances did that occur?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Sir, isn't it also true that Kole, Dragan Kolundzija, never beat

15 any detainee in the Keraterm camp during your stay there?

16 A. I didn't see that and I don't claim that. I claim that he

17 didn't.

18 Q. That was my question, and perhaps it wasn't asked properly. It's

19 a fact, sir, isn't it, that Dragan Kolundzija never beat any detainee at

20 the camp? Isn't that correct?

21 A. That's true. I didn't see him touch anybody.

22 Q. And isn't it true also, sir, that you've never heard from anyone

23 who was detained in Keraterm that in fact Dragan Kolundzija laid a hand on

24 them? Isn't that correct?

25 A. No, no, I didn't hear anything like that.

Page 3943

1 Q. So I'm correct, right?

2 A. That's what I said.

3 Q. If I can just direct the witness to just have his answers audible

4 as opposed to nods of the head or shrugs of the shoulder. Thank you,

5 sir. Sir, isn't it also true that Dragan Kolundzija was never present at

6 any beatings that you may have witnessed?

7 A. I can't confirm that exactly. I remember that one day a witness

8 was taken out during Fustar's shift and he was returned during Kole's

9 shift, so in that case, I do not know. I can't claim what happened.

10 Q. So is it fair to say, with respect to that incident, you have no

11 recollection one way or the other whether or not Kole was actually present

12 during the alleged incident?

13 A. I can't say that. I know it was his shift. Whether he was

14 present or not, I do not know.

15 Q. Did you ever, sir, see Kole participate, or Dragan Kolundzija

16 participate, or commit a killing?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Sir, did you ever in fact see Dragan Kolundzija aid or abet in a

19 killing or beating?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Sir, did you ever see Dragan Kolundzija approve of a killing or

22 beating?

23 A. No, I didn't see anything like that.

24 Q. Sir, did you ever see whether Dragan Kolundzija encouraged a

25 beating or a killing?

Page 3944

1 A. No. This is not something that I know about or something that I

2 could see.

3 Q. So is it fair to say that he did not?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Sir, I'm asking for your specific recollection of what you recall

6 and what you specifically saw. And is it true, sir, that you never saw

7 Dragan Kolundzija encourage a killing or beating?

8 A. I didn't see him inciting anybody.

9 Q. Did you ever see Dragan Kolundzija, sir, acquiesce, assist or

10 order any detainee to be killed or beaten?

11 A. I didn't see anything like that, no.

12 Q. In fact, sir, as you stated on September 4th, 1994, and as you

13 stated here today, Kole tried to help; correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. In fact, Dragan Kolundzija tried to alter the conditions of the

16 camp when he was on duty; correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention, if I may -- did you at any

19 time while you were at the camp receive clothing from any friends or

20 family?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. And on how many occasions?

23 A. Once.

24 Q. And when was that?

25 A. I don't remember, but I know it was Kole's shift.

Page 3945













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3946

1 Q. Earlier you testified that there was a beating that occurred

2 during Fustar's shift and they returned him, the detainee, you recalled,

3 essentially, during Kole's shift. Do you remember that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Does the name Adem Blazevic mean anything to you?

6 A. It means that Kole prevented him from being beaten by Zigic once.

7 They called Kole to stop it, to prevent it.

8 Q. And in fact with respect to this individual, Mr. Blazevic, isn't

9 it true that Zigic came, according to your previous statements, came and

10 called him out of the room, was going to beat them, and Mr. Dragan

11 Kolundzija prevented the beating of Mr. Blazevic; correct?

12 A. When Zigic came and called Blazevic out, then they said, "Call

13 Kole to protect him." And that is what Kole did.

14 Q. Who was the "they"?

15 A. Could you please repeat the question? I don't know who you're

16 referring to.

17 Q. Well, I apologise. In your response to my earlier question, you

18 stated "they," and I'm just following up on your response, to identify who

19 the "they" were. Who called for Kole?

20 A. The inmates probably called one of the guards.

21 Q. Well, how many inmates, sir?

22 A. I can't say how many. There were a lot of us. There were over

23 500 of us in that room, so I don't know how many called.

24 Q. Fair enough. Do you remember whether or not, when you received

25 clothing on that one occasion, whether or not it was in the middle,

Page 3947

1 towards the beginning or the end of your stay at Keraterm?

2 A. I don't remember. Perhaps, and I say perhaps, in the second half

3 or maybe even later.

4 Q. Sir, if I may return just for a couple of questions vis-a-vis

5 Mr. Blazevic, I think in your statement you stated in fact that someone

6 yelled out, "Get Kole." Would that be -- would that refresh your

7 recollection?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So it wasn't that the guards called Kole. Actually it was the

10 detainees at Keraterm who yelled out for Kole, for him to come; correct?

11 A. The inmates, not prisoners, inmates. I was not a prisoner. I was

12 an inmate. The inmates called out and perhaps some of the guards too. I

13 really don't remember. There were so many people there.

14 Q. Just if I may, with the court's indulgence, my question, sir,

15 specifically was -- I referenced the word "detainee." I did not mention

16 the word "prisoner," so I'm not sure how the interpreter referenced it,

17 but I used the word "detainee." No offence was meant by that, I'm sure.

18 Isn't it true that everyone from the detainees at the camp who were --

19 they wanted Kole because Kole was the individual who would help them in a

20 situation such as the one experienced by Mr. Blazevic?

21 A. Probably.

22 Q. And quite frankly it's logical that's why you recall that in fact

23 the other detainees were yelling out for Kole's name; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Sir, with respect to the July 24th, 1992 massacre, I'm going to

Page 3948

1 ask you a couple of questions. In your statements, you testified that

2 since your arrival at Keraterm camp June 11th, 1992, up until the date of

3 the massacre of July 24th, 1992, you recall seeing, from your initial

4 arrival at the camp, two machine-gun nests; isn't that correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And sir, with respect again to the hours leading before the

7 massacre, on that day, you noticed new people at Keraterm; correct?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. In fact, sir, you saw soldiers wearing the SMB uniform; correct?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And in fact, sir, this was the first time since you came to the

12 Keraterm camp that you in fact saw soldiers on the compound; isn't that

13 true?

14 A. Well, they were all soldiers. It depends on what kind of a

15 uniform they were, but the soldiers then, the army, they had SMB uniforms.

16 Q. Can you tell the Court what SMB uniforms stand for?

17 A. It was the uniform of the former JNA. I don't know in what other

18 way I can describe it.

19 Q. That seems to be adequate. With respect to those particular

20 soldiers that you saw that arrived on the day of the massacre, July 24th,

21 you had not seen, isn't it true, sir, prior to that date any such soldiers

22 wearing the SMB uniform; correct?

23 A. I didn't see.

24 Q. So it's correct, right?

25 A. I saw camouflage uniforms, but I didn't see any SMB uniforms.

Page 3949

1 Q. In fact, sir, on the day of the massacre, these soldiers who

2 arrived at the Keraterm camp with the SMB uniforms, they also had red

3 ribbons tied around their arms; correct?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: And the witness is indicating up on his left arm.

6 Q. Correct? Above the elbow.

7 A. Whether it was the left or the right, but I know that they did

8 wear them.

9 Q. And isn't it true, sir, that from the time that you were at

10 Keraterm, from June 11th up until that date July 24, 1992, you had never

11 seen soldiers who were wearing the SMB uniform and those that were wearing

12 the red ribbons around their arms at the camp before that?

13 A. No. No.

14 Q. Is it true or is it not true?

15 A. It's true that I did not see people with those ribbons before that

16 day.

17 Q. Sir, and finally, isn't it true that on the same day of the

18 massacre, you, as well as other detainees from various other rooms were

19 throwing water bottles of 1.5 litres and bread wrapped in clothing through

20 the windows to the detainees in Room 3?

21 A. This was on the 23rd, in the morning hours, before the things that

22 happened in the evening. So this was before that, since they weren't

23 getting any food. This was before all of those events. Yes, that's

24 true.

25 Q. I'm not disputing with what your recollection is of the date, sir,

Page 3950

1 but just so I'm clear, on day of the massacre -- the massacre occurred on

2 the evening; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you and the other detainees who provided water and food for

5 the men who were in Room 3, did you do that the day of the massacre or the

6 day before the massacre?

7 A. On the same day, except this was in the morning, in the morning

8 hours.

9 Q. Thank you for that clarification.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: That's all the questions I have. Thank you, Your

11 Honour.

12 Q. Thank you, sir.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

14 Ms. Baly.

15 MS. BALY: I have no re-examination. I'm not sure whether my

16 friends want the statements in or not.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: They're going to consider that.

18 Witness W, that concludes your testimony and you are released.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, with your indulgence, I have a

23 procedural matter that I would ask for clarification on, if we could,

24 prior to the luncheon recess.


Page 3951

1 MR. MUNDIS: This matter has to do with the 92 bis transcripts

2 that have already been admitted into evidence, and as Your Honour will

3 recall, when the Chamber issued its oral ruling on that matter, Your

4 Honour Judge Robinson said: "I should say that the exhibits which are

5 unsealed and which relate to the parts of the admitted transcripts will

6 also be admitted."

7 We have a need for clarification on that, first of all, with

8 respect to the exhibits for the witnesses who will be subject to

9 cross-examination and those exhibits with respect to the witnesses who

10 will not be subject to cross-examination. And I raise this because

11 immediately after the lunch break, the first one of these witnesses will

12 testify, and my question is: The Registry, late last week, provided the

13 Prosecutor with copies of all of the relevant exhibits for the witnesses,

14 and in light of Your Honours' comments about "they will be admitted," our

15 question is have they already been admitted or do we need to provide yet

16 once again copies of all of these exhibits for both the Defence counsel

17 and the Chamber? And the same question with respect to those witnesses

18 who will not be appearing but whose transcripts have already been

19 admitted, and I believe there were three of those witnesses. Do we also

20 need to provide those exhibits or the fact that the Registry already has

21 those exhibits in their possession, would that be sufficient?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we have already made a ruling that they are

23 admitted.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Registrar.

Page 3952

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE MAY: I mean is there any difficulty about producing new

3 bundles in each case? It might make it much clearer, Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, we can in fact do that. My

5 understanding is the bundle for Mr. Sejmenovic, the next witness, was

6 provided earlier this morning. We may run into some time constraints, but

7 we will endeavour to do that.

8 The follow-up question, of course, would be: Is it necessary with

9 respect to the three witnesses who are not subject to cross-examination?

10 JUDGE MAY: Provided we know what the exhibits are that are relied

11 on. They're in the transcript, but it would be much simpler to have a

12 list in each case saying what they are.

13 MR. LAWRENCE: May I mention something to the Court?


15 MR. LAWRENCE: As the Court knows, my learned friend Mr. Ostojic

16 and myself were parachuted in, and I'm very worried that matters that are

17 taken as read, produced on other occasions, should somehow get into the

18 evidence and we wouldn't know about them. I have no doubt, and I make no

19 criticism of the Prosecution that all this material has been at some stage

20 or other provided for the Defence of Kolundzija, but if Mr. Ostojic and

21 myself have neither seen it nor do we know about it, then obviously that

22 wouldn't be right. So I would support any help which the Court would

23 indicate to the Prosecution or to the Registry they should provide for

24 exhibits.

25 And may I just, for the Court's benefit, merely say that up until

Page 3953

1 this point, we, the Defence team of Kolundzija, have not had an

2 opportunity to go and have a look at any of the exhibits which are in the

3 Prosecution's possession or the Registry's possession. I'm hoping that we

4 will be able to do that in due course, but it's an indication of the

5 constraints that are upon us and the fact that we may be in ignorance of

6 some of the exhibits that have already been produced. And if the Court

7 were to say, "Well, they've been produced and therefore no further action

8 need to be taken," we may miss some of those important exhibits.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters respectfully submit that it

12 might be a good time for a break and we'll do that after the break.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... are

14 admitted. If a particular problem arises, then we'll deal with it when it

15 arises.

16 Let me repeat that. I'm saying that it is essentially a practical

17 problem. We have made a ruling that the exhibits are admitted. If a

18 problem arises in relation to the conduct of the cross-examination, then

19 we'll deal with it when it arises.

20 We're adjourned until 2.30.

21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.10 p.m.





Page 3954

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let the witness make the declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

9 Mr. Mundis, it would be in order for you to just lead with a very

10 few introductory remarks, name and so on.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour

12 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

13 Q. Witness, for the record, can you please give the Tribunal your

14 full name?

15 A. Your Honours, I am Mevludin Sejmenovic.

16 Q. And your date of birth and place of birth, please?

17 A. I was born on the 15th of October 1962, in the village of Rovasi,

18 municipality of Vlasenica, region of Cerska.

19 Q. Witness, have you previously testified before the Tribunal before,

20 and if so, in what case or cases?

21 A. I testified twice, the first time in the Tadic case and the second

22 time in the Kovacevic case.

23 Q. Witness, do you adopt your testimony from those previous trials

24 for purposes of this case?

25 A. I do, Your Honours.

Page 3955













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3956

1 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no further questions

2 at this time for the witness.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

4 Mr. Greaves?

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

6 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, in the period of 1992, you were a politician; is

7 that right?

8 A. That is right.

9 Q. And indeed a founder member of the SDA in Prijedor?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. You were then in -- when the events of May 1992 erupted, you were

12 I think not yet 30; is that correct?

13 A. No. I wasn't 30 yet. I was 29 something but I did not turn 30.

14 Q. And may we take it from the fact that you were a founder member of

15 the SDA that, with the collapse of communism in your country, you saw the

16 future very much as an ethnically based political setup in Bosnia?

17 A. No. That is not correct.

18 Q. Can you help us about this: Have you held elected positions,

19 either at the level of a municipality or at a national level?

20 A. I was elected member of parliament of the State of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 Q. When were you first elected?

23 A. In November 1990. No - sorry - 1991.

24 Q. And have you continued to hold elected office since that time?

25 A. Yes. After the general election, general November elections, I

Page 3957

1 took my seat in the parliament of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. And have you continued to seek and have you in fact been elected

3 since that time as a Member of Parliament?

4 A. No.

5 Q. When did you cease to be involved in active politics in the sense

6 of seeking election, Mr. Sejmenovic?

7 A. It was in the wake of the Dayton Accords. In the elections that

8 followed, I was nominated for vice-president of Republika Srpska, I was

9 not elected, and after that, I did not stand for any position again.

10 Q. There came a time, did there not, when the SDA became

11 fundamentally an ethnically based party? Do you accept that?

12 A. The circumstances brought this about, the circumstances that were

13 not the result -- that were not primarily the result of the SDA

14 activities.

15 Q. Did you approve of the fact that the SDA had become an ethnically

16 based party?

17 A. I set out -- I was active in the party, and I was a member of the

18 party because it also involved some civil elements in its structure.

19 Q. Forgive me, Mr. Sejmenovic. That was not the question which I

20 asked. The question which I asked you was: Did you approve of the fact

21 that the SDA became an ethnically based party?

22 A. The SDA became predominantly national parties because the

23 circumstances brought that about, because before that, another ethnic

24 body, and that was the Serb, had organised the Serb people exclusively.

25 On the other hand, we had the influences from Croatia which had set up the

Page 3958

1 Croat Democratic Union a long time before that. So the SDA then became

2 predominantly the party of the Bosniak people. Qualitatively speaking,

3 that was so, but quantitatively speaking, it was not, so -- because we had

4 some elected representatives of other peoples in different responsible

5 positions. The predominantly nationalist party would not allow the

6 nomination of anybody who was of a different ethnic origin. I mean that

7 goes per se.

8 Q. Let me try for the third time, Mr. Sejmenovic. However it came

9 about and for whatever reason, did you, once it had happened, approve of

10 the fact that the SDA had become an ethnically based party?

11 A. I was a member of the Party for Democratic Action under the

12 circumstances which prevailed, because that was the only form --

13 organisation which allowed an active participation, and I participated in

14 it.

15 If you want to ask me within the party the discussions that were

16 conducted and the directions of the party activities, then that is a

17 different matter and I can answer that differently, but from what I heard

18 you ask, was whether the SDA was an ethnically based party by the SDS, and

19 I claim it was not because --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sejmenovic, counsel is simply saying whether

21 you approved of the SDA becoming an ethnically based party. Did you

22 approve of that?

23 A. I wanted things to unfold in a different direction, but that

24 was -- this was the reality. And whether I approved or disapproved, it

25 did not matter. Those were the conditions under which we had to act.

Page 3959

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Counsel has heard the circumstances.

2 MR. GREAVES: I suspect that's all we're going to get.

3 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, in Bosnia-Herzegovina since the war and today,

4 it's right, isn't it, that the proposition that there was a genocide in

5 Bosnia in 1992 is, amongst all people, an article of faith? Would you

6 accept that?

7 A. I think that it is up to the court to establish all the facts

8 related to the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I do not wish to qualify it

9 before the -- anticipating what the institutions which are competent to

10 deal with this matter publish, issue their own opinion.

11 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, you're going to be here for a very, very long time

12 if you don't answer the question.

13 JUDGE MAY: How are we assisted by this? Are you alleging that --

14 bias on the part of the witness or what? He's given you the answer. He

15 said it's a matter for the Court. That's assuredly true.

16 MR. GREAVES: Of course it is a matter for the Court to determine

17 whether there was or not. Let me explain. We say that this witness's

18 evidence is exaggerated, and it is exaggerated because the proposition is,

19 amongst all people in Bosnia, that there was a genocide and that it is

20 politically important to advance that fact for a number of reasons, and

21 that there is a proper -- there is a motive.

22 JUDGE MAY: Let us put the matter to the witness because time, you

23 know, is limited.

24 MR. GREAVES: Yes.

25 JUDGE MAY: He is purely here for cross-examination and that

Page 3960

1 cannot take up a huge amount, an inordinate amount, of time.

2 MR. GREAVES: I don't think I had taken, with respect, a great

3 deal of time.

4 JUDGE MAY: But you threatened the witness that he would be here a

5 long time.

6 MR. GREAVES: But he hadn't answered the question. He will be

7 here for a long time if he doesn't answer my question.

8 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter for the Court to determine.

9 Mr. Sejmenovic, you've heard what's being suggested, that your

10 evidence is exaggerated because people in Bosnia say that there was a

11 genocide and it's politically important to advance that fact. Now, that

12 is the suggestion that was made. What is your answer to that?

13 A. The gentleman of the Defence asked me if there had been the

14 genocide in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was a clear question. That question

15 carries legal weight.

16 JUDGE MAY: Let me interrupt you. What he's saying is that it is

17 said in Bosnia that there was a genocide. And it is generally believed

18 that, and that as a result, your evidence is exaggerated.

19 A. Your Honours, I want to tell you that a large number of people in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina were witnesses to war events. They saw very many dead

21 people and very many concentration camps. Of course, individuals cannot

22 but draw comparisons with historical events of 50 years ago. However, a

23 vast number of people expect authorised international institutions engaged

24 in the definition of these events to pronounce their attitude. I'm not

25 speaking on behalf of the people. I'm not speaking on behalf of

Page 3961

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I am giving my views and giving you what I am -- I'm

2 telling you what I think of my experience and what I experienced, and that

3 is what my testimony is about. Thank you.


5 Q. Would you accept, Mr. Sejmenovic, that the proposition that there

6 was a genocide is one which is used as a political weapon on the part of

7 politicians in Sarajevo against Republika Srpska?

8 A. If we speak about the media and political activities, we also hear

9 the affirmations of some politicians in Banja Luka that there were

10 genocides committed against the Serb people in 1992. And we also hear

11 such claims in Sarajevo that it was done against the Bosnian people. And

12 we also hear from representatives of the Croat people that in 1991 there

13 was the genocide of the Croat people. But the purpose of this trial and

14 many other cases is to clarify it legally and define it so that the

15 authorised institutions in cooperation with all the local authorities

16 could pass the final legal judgement of that time. I'm an engineer; I'm

17 not a lawyer. About what these categories mean and about legal

18 definitions, I cannot tell you about this. The fact is, and you were

19 correct in noting it, that some political parties use that phrase,

20 "genocide was committed." You limit yourself to Sarajevo, but it is

21 quite evident that we could hear it here the same way on Serb television

22 and --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, I think you have the answer there.

24 He's saying it wasn't confined just to Sarajevo. Each group claimed

25 genocide.

Page 3962


2 Q. Have you -- having given evidence on a number of occasions,

3 Mr. Sejmenovic, have you been following the progress of the trials before

4 this Court?

5 A. No, no. I have not. I took part in my trials, I was prepared

6 adequately by the Tribunal, but I can tell you that this subject as a

7 person is a great burden to me, both physically and mentally. And these

8 are things that I do not really want to go into. I will go into them only

9 in so much as it is necessary to help you to resolve these cases and

10 arrive at a definition of what happened there.

11 Q. Are you aware that to date there has not been a conviction for the

12 offence of genocide?

13 A. I'm not sure. I do not know. I do not read the judgements, and I

14 really do not spend time on this. My job is very time-consuming. And I

15 told you, I tried to have business with these things as little as possible

16 because that is not pleasant, and I really prefer not to recall the

17 details which are very, very hard and which are really a burden on every

18 normal man.

19 Q. Can you help me, please, about this: Concerning the plebiscite

20 that was organised by the Serb population in Bosnia in, I think, late

21 1991, your evidence is that that was an illegal act. Do you say that the

22 Serbs were not entitled to sound out what the opinion of people was

23 concerning the future of their country?

24 A. Every ethnic group in Bosnia-Herzegovina was entitled to think

25 about their future and to address their problems, but there was the state,

Page 3963

1 there was the legal and legitimate framework in which this should have

2 been done. There were legitimate bodies and there were procedures to be

3 followed.

4 The Serb Democratic Party, outside the legal and legitimate bodies

5 of Bosnia-Herzegovina decided to hold their referendum in a manner and

6 form which was not covered by the legislation of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They

7 evidently violated the laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Then they did not take

8 the decisions in the parliament. They simply set about this business

9 along a parallel track.

10 Q. But why do you say that it's illegal for what in effect is a

11 well-organised opinion poll of Serbian people to take place? Why do you

12 say it's unlawful to do that?

13 A. In that specific case, it is unlawful to take any decisions

14 relative to the national questions or the state questions taken outside

15 the parliament of our country. I guess that is how it is in all countries

16 and that is how it was in our case; that is, no such sounding could be

17 done separately for only one ethnic community. The parliament allowed for

18 discussions about the problem, so then the ethnic community in the

19 parliament, but law provided absolutely no foundation for a people and its

20 representatives to step out of institutions and act outside the republic,

21 the municipality, so neighbourhood communities, and some party committees

22 to organise such major issues as this plebiscite or a mass referendum.

23 There were ways to consider these problems within the parliament of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but at that stage, the SDS had already started openly

25 to work with the parliament and all the lawfully elected parties of

Page 3964

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. Would it be the case that by the time these events were happening,

3 late 1991, that on each side, the Serb side, the Muslim side, and the

4 Croat side, in your part of the world, that fear of other communities had

5 already begun to emerge?

6 A. You mean at the time of the plebiscite?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. At the time of the plebiscite, there was fear only in non-Serb

9 communities.

10 Q. But do you accept that in time and before May 1992, such fear had

11 begun to emerge in the Serb community?

12 A. I am not sure if there was any such fear. Perhaps individuals in

13 some places, in some areas, that is possible for reasons purely human, but

14 I cannot speak about the Serb people and fear among them, because I did

15 not observe it at the time. At that time, the Serb people enjoyed

16 exclusive support of the Yugoslav People's Army, the exclusive support of

17 the newly formed Serb state, that is, Serb institutions, and non-Serb

18 peoples in many towns were already exposed to horrendous torture. Many

19 places, if you are speaking about the latter half of 1992, were, to all

20 intents and purposes, completely destroyed already.

21 Q. Can you help me about this, please: Late 1991, early 1992, there

22 were boycotts by the non-Serb population of the call-up. Would you accept

23 that as a consequence of those boycotts, in effect that was the cause for

24 the JNA becoming a Serb-dominated or exclusive organisation?

25 A. No, I do not think that that was the only reason.

Page 3965













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3966

1 Q. As far as that is concerned, the effect, in any event, was that

2 the JNA did become Serb-dominated and, therefore, if weapons were issued

3 to the JNA, it would be only to Serbs, wouldn't it?

4 A. Of course, only Serbs. And if I may, I'd like to add something.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, very quickly.

6 A. Until the time that you are talking about, the JNA had by that

7 time created -- caused the war in Croatia, and its objective was Serb area

8 should be in Karlobag, Virovitica, and I don't know what else; that is,

9 Croat areas were completely destroyed so that they could be incorporated

10 in Serb territories, and that was obvious from all televisions and all

11 radios, it was obvious from what soldiers coming back were saying. It was

12 impossible to imagine the situation in which people from other communities

13 who had already been destroyed and their villages and towns could continue

14 to trust the Yugoslav People's Army. It is quite clear in what direction

15 it began to find its enemies and at that time it already began to declare

16 itself as the exclusively Serb army.


18 Q. Is it your position that the stationing of large forces in the

19 Prijedor area was a deliberate part of a plan to overwhelm the non-Serb

20 populations of Prijedor?

21 A. What I can tell you about this is as follows: We, the residents

22 of Prijedor, observed the mass accumulation of weapons in the territory of

23 Republika Srpska as long as the war went on in the Republic of Croatia.

24 The non-Serb population did not see it as a direct threat, because only

25 30 or 50 kilometres away was the front line where these forces were

Page 3967

1 fighting. But war in Croatia was over. The 5th Kozara Brigade returned

2 to Prijedor. And these weapons not only remained in those same

3 quantities, but further quantities of weapons were added to it. And the

4 fighting with the former enemy with that army were over. So it was the

5 logic of things which told us that a new enemy was in order, hence the

6 fear, and we also could observe the Serb population being armed. We also

7 saw that the soldiers released from the 5th Kozara were bringing their

8 weapons home. And as far as I know, this is not allowed under normal

9 circumstances, only under conditions of war. And these were all the

10 things which caused fear amongst us.

11 Q. It's right, isn't it, that the Serb authorities feared that

12 Croatia would in turn try and attack Northern Bosnia and seize parts of

13 the territory? Would you accept that?

14 A. No, I never heard of that, either from Serb soldiers or from Serb

15 officers, nor from the representatives of the Serbian people in the

16 assembly. I never heard that. I only heard Commander Arsic say that

17 Prijedor is being defended in Pakrac, Lipik and Novska, but the fear that

18 the Croatian army would attack Prijedor, there was never any indication of

19 that, nor did I hear about that anywhere in political, Serbian political

20 propaganda.

21 Q. But as you have pointed out, Prijedor and the Prijedor area is 30

22 to 50 kilometres from the Croatian border, is it not?

23 A. Yes, that's true.

24 Q. If Prijedor was attacked and taken by a force coming from the

25 north, it would in effect cut off two large parts of Serbian territory,

Page 3968

1 the one from another, would it not?

2 A. No, you're not right, sir. Across the border of Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina, there was a new state already established from the territory

4 of the Croatian state. That was the so-called Republika of the Serbian

5 Krajina, so the borders of Bosnia and Herzegovina, from the danger, the

6 territory that you were speaking as a threat, the Serbian police was

7 already there, the Serbian people with their police, their soldiers and

8 the other organs, so no danger could come from that direction anyway.

9 Q. Well, I suggest to you that there was a legitimate and proper

10 defence reason for the stationing of large and powerful forces in the

11 Prijedor area, that is to ward against the -- to guard against the

12 possibility of attack from Croatia into a strategically important

13 district. That's right, isn't it?

14 A. That was true in 1990 when the border of Croatia was on the river

15 Una. However, the war in Croatia expanded Serbian territory deep into the

16 territory of Croatia, all the way up to Petrinja. So in that territory, a

17 very deep zone, the so-called Serbian Republic of Krajina was made and it

18 was headed by President Matic. This is very broad and long territory.

19 Behind it, of course, like Zagreb, Sisak and other towns. So from these

20 towns, there was no military danger for Prijedor. It would have to be

21 war. War would have to be conducted to destroy this Serbian Krajina in

22 order to get to the border, and this was impossible at that moment

23 because, at that point, Croatia had just managed to defend perhaps one

24 half of its territory.

25 Q. Is it your position that the Serb side was heavily armed with

Page 3969

1 modern military weapons and the Muslim side almost completely unarmed?

2 A. I have to tell you that there was, quote unquote, a Serbian side,

3 and this was the JNA and Serbian paramilitary forces, so this was an army

4 that had declared itself as a Serbian army. On the other hand, there was

5 no Muslim army. There was the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

6 the TO, which was commanded or whose command staff was not exclusively

7 Muslim. This was a legal and legitimate defence formation. Of course,

8 the military potential and any kind of combat comparison of this army,

9 which had already successfully completed one war in Croatia, and the

10 Territorial Defence, which was trying to set itself up at that time, any

11 kind of comparison is impossible. You're right to the extent that

12 these -- that in these two groups there was an enormous quantity of arms,

13 but you are not right in naming these two formations.

14 Q. What I want to suggest to you is that in the spring of 1992, a

15 large amount of weaponry was assembled by the Muslim side in the Prijedor

16 district. Would you accept that?

17 A. After the destruction of Kozarac, the destruction of the villages

18 around Hambarine, the taking of people to detention camps, a certain

19 quantity of arms was confiscated, and you could see that in Serbian

20 propaganda broadcasts, you could hear that on the radio. How much was

21 confiscated, I really don't know. It was not something that I could

22 establish. I don't know anything about that, and I can't testify about

23 that. I assume, since the TO of Bosnia and Herzegovina was armed and I

24 knew how armed, how well armed it was, I believe that it must have been a

25 small, insignificant quantity of weapons.

Page 3970

1 Q. Do you know Sefer Halilovic?

2 A. No, not personally, but I heard later that he was the commander of

3 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 Q. Is he, as far as you know, a honourable and honest man?

5 A. I don't know Mr. Halilovic and I cannot talk about somebody's

6 honour and honesty if I don't know them. That would be absurd.

7 Q. Well, you know of him. Do you know of his reputation in the

8 country at large, whether you know him personally or not?

9 A. I know that he was the commander of the army of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina. This is a fact that is known to me. It's a generally

11 well-known fact.

12 Q. You see, he has asserted that in that period, the entire -- or

13 most of the weapons of the TO in the Prijedor district were in fact

14 obtained for the Muslim side by the Patriotic League. Are you able to

15 help us about that?

16 A. I could just tell you the following about that. I know reliably

17 that no high-ranking official nor Sefer Halilovic ever came to visit

18 Prijedor. This is something I know for a fact. Further, I know for a

19 fact that there were no quantities of weapons that came to Prijedor in an

20 organised fashion for the Muslim people. What Sefer Halilovic stated,

21 especially about things that I am hearing about here for the first time, I

22 would kindly ask you to take into account the fact that I cannot comment

23 on this. Perhaps it would be useful to ask these questions or to put

24 these questions to Sefer Halilovic.

25 Q. Were you familiar with the activities of and the equipment of the

Page 3971

1 Kozarac Territorial Defence at this time?

2 A. I -- no, no, because I did not deal with these issues. If you're

3 talking about -- excuse me, could you specify for me the period that

4 you're talking about?

5 Q. Yes, between April and August, or April and July of 1992.

6 A. Between April and July, 1992, the Territorial Defence did exist

7 until the 24th of May, 1992. After that, it no longer existed because the

8 basis of the TO was destroyed, so we cannot talk about any kind of TO

9 formations. You asked me quite a lot, or your colleagues did, in previous

10 cases about my knowledge of the TO. Practically everything that I

11 remembered from that period I have talked about. I can possibly interpret

12 some of the things that I know about which I have been asked a number of

13 times, and I have responded about that a number of times. I didn't have

14 any organisational duties in the Territorial Defence. I was one of the

15 citizens who had taken upon himself in case of war to defend the country

16 and the population. And of course, as a member of the SDA, I saw what was

17 going on. I was in contact with the other officials, so --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sejmenovic, would you try to make your

19 answers more concise? Give shorter answers to the questions. Thank you

20 very much.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.


23 Q. Now, one of the matters that you've raised in your evidence

24 concerns Muslims being dismissed from their posts and ordinary life

25 ceasing to exist. We've heard quite a lot of evidence, Mr. Sejmenovic, in

Page 3972

1 this trial, of course, about checkpoints and the difficulties that those

2 caused to the citizens of Prijedor. But it's right, isn't it, that for

3 many people, they were able to move about, to hold markets, to shop, and

4 indeed many people were still able to go to work, were they not, in May

5 1992?

6 A. In May 1992, from Kozarac to Prijedor, and I know this for a fact,

7 in the second half of May, there was no public transportation, any kind of

8 city buses between Kozarac and Prijedor which were usually used by

9 students and pupils and workers to go to work.

10 In Prijedor itself, I was not there physically, so I don't know

11 what the atmosphere was there and what was happening there in the sense of

12 your question. I really cannot testify about that. I can only say that

13 in conversations with people, I received information that a lot of people

14 were fired from their jobs.

15 Direct knowledge of what I have is as following: The first few

16 days after the takeover, all the officials of the non-Serb officials were

17 fired. I'm talking about directors, administrators, president, chairman

18 of the municipality, the municipal clerks, and so on. So this happened

19 directly after the takeover.

20 In the next days that followed, workers were fired who had better

21 jobs and then eventually this became a mass occurrence within a few days.

22 Q. But did you also hear, apart from those people that you've

23 described as the directors and so on, did you also hear from other people

24 that they were continuing to attend their place of work, to work normally,

25 and to travel about? Did you hear that?

Page 3973

1 A. I heard only about one of my acquaintances. He worked on the

2 railways. He was a worker at the railway station in Prijedor after that

3 period. So all the way -- up until Kozarac was bombed, he continued to go

4 to work and he worked at the railway station and he would come back home.

5 This is the only case from Trnopolje that I know of. Whether there was

6 such cases in Prijedor, I don't know. I assume, based on the general

7 situation, is that there was perhaps a symbolic number of such cases, but

8 this is something that I can't really talk about because I wasn't

9 physically in Prijedor. I was living in Trnopolje.

10 Q. Did you continue to see people in that area working in the fields,

11 gathering the harvest in in May 1992?

12 A. Yes. In early May 1992, people would work some -- around their

13 homes in that area. And this semblance of peacetime life continued until

14 the attack on Kozarac. After that, villages were burning, neighbourhoods

15 were burning, ethnic cleansing was being carried out, arrests. So there

16 was no semblance of normal life. So you know what the circumstances were

17 in Kozarac.

18 Q. The first serious fighting took place towards the end of May 1992;

19 is that right?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. What I suggest to you is that at least until that time, in your

22 area as in others, with the exception of checkpoints, life continued much

23 as it had before. Not just early May, but right through to the time when

24 the fighting starts. Do you accept that?

25 A. No, I do not accept that. If you believe that normal life is when

Page 3974

1 a person cannot go to work in Prijedor, that his children cannot go to

2 school any more, that the head of a household cannot go through a village

3 that is not Muslim because he's afraid that he would be shot, if you

4 believe that it is normal life that he can live in his house and have

5 dinner there, then you can accept that, but I believe that normal life is

6 everyday life. It's the way that life is lived anywhere in the normal

7 world, where you go to work, there is school, there are medical

8 institutions, there is entertainment.

9 Life basically stopped. It died. There was simply existence.

10 Life in fear in the area where people were living, in very narrow confines

11 of where people were living, in their homes. You couldn't travel. Simply

12 all the restrictions were already in force. Phones started to be cut

13 off. Electricity was cut off. You couldn't obtain petrol. So all of

14 this is far from a situation which could be described as normal life.

15 This is my opinion.

16 Q. When detentions started, would you accept that for the most part,

17 they were entirely of men who were of military age?

18 A. No, I do not accept that fact. I do not accept it, because

19 underaged children were detained. I myself saw a child which was returned

20 to Trnopolje from Keraterm, a child which couldn't have had more than

21 13 years of age. And his mother hardly recognised him. Only when he

22 began to speak did his mother recognise him, and she fainted. For me this

23 was a very, very moving scene. It was a very skinny child with sunken

24 eyes.

25 I found out from others that this was not the only case. There

Page 3975













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3976

1 were other underaged boys and also girls who were held at Trnopolje. At

2 Omarska, women were detained. So I do not agree with what you have just

3 said.

4 Q. The question I put to you was, for the most part: How many

5 children do you say were there, 10, 20, something like that?

6 A. Sir, I've already told you I saw one child. But a child, one

7 child, cannot and prisoner of war. It can't be any kind of prisoner, and

8 this was a fact. I just used that as an illustration. I found out from

9 other people that they saw similar cases. Directly I saw women at the

10 Omarska camp. There are a lot of women also at the Trnopolje camp. These

11 are facts.

12 If you ask where the greatest number was, you are right, the

13 greatest number of men was at Omarska. But I'm not sure that we're

14 talking about military-aged men. There are a lot of older men at the

15 Omarska camp. Of course, biologically speaking, the biggest group in any

16 kind of population, male population, are -- is made up of men of military

17 age. This is always like that. This would be men from 20 upwards. So by

18 definition, this is true. So in that sense, what you are saying is true.

19 Q. The women who were held at Trnopolje were eventually evacuated,

20 were they not, and indeed the children?

21 A. I was present during some evacuations - I was observing them - and

22 you are right there. When I was taken from Trnopolje to the prison in

23 Prijedor, I don't know whether the others were evacuated, how, when, in

24 what way. Whether anything happened with those women, I don't know. So

25 from that period on, I cannot testify about it.

Page 3977

1 So in the period where I was able to observe what was going on in

2 the camp, yes, there was an evacuation primarily of women and children and

3 of people who had enough money to pay the Serbian prison authorities to

4 allow them to -- to embark on the cattle trains that were driving or going

5 to Gracanica.

6 Q. The truth of the matter is that there were large numbers of

7 people, were there not, who were evacuated both to Bosnia, Central Bosnia,

8 and also to Croatia; isn't that right?

9 A. I didn't know where they were evacuated to. At that time, the

10 Serbian authorities said that those convoys of women, children, and older

11 people, as well as younger people who had the 1.000 or 2.000 German marks

12 to pay, the authorities said they were either being taken to Gracanica or

13 to Travnik via Mount Vlasic. What happened with them, I don't know. And

14 I also don't know whether they were really taking those people to those

15 places. I am just conveying what I heard from people who had an

16 explanation from the Serbian authorities about where these people were

17 being taken.

18 Q. You yourself did not at any stage go within the confines of

19 Keraterm, did you?

20 A. No, I didn't.

21 Q. You, very briefly, as you stopped at the military post opposite

22 Keraterm, looked at it, didn't you?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. And then went on your way from Prijedor to the camp at Omarska?

25 A. No, but to the prison in Prijedor.

Page 3978

1 Q. I'm sorry. I apologise. To the prison in Prijedor. And that was

2 the last time that you saw Keraterm during that period; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Now, I want to ask you, please, about a particular incident and

5 see if you can help me about it. At the Prijedor SUP building, you were

6 taken to an office, if I can just remind you, and there was a man there,

7 according to your evidence, called Dragan Saponja. Is it right that

8 having beaten you, he took you to another room where there was an

9 inspector and a policeman whose name you didn't know but who you were able

10 to remember? Do you recall that?

11 A. Yes, I remember that. You're right. I could probably remember --

12 I could probably remember the face, but I don't think I could remember the

13 name of that person. I could tell you a few times at Asaf's cafe in

14 Prijedor we sat down, we had coffee with his girlfriend and his

15 girlfriend's sister who happened to be a school friend of mine. And that

16 that time he was studying in Belgrade. We couldn't see him in Prijedor

17 often, so sometimes rarely he would come back and a couple of times we sat

18 down together.

19 Q. So he was a man of about your age, was he?

20 A. Yes, more or less. Maybe he was a year younger. I don't know.

21 I'm not sure. A year or two.

22 Q. I next want to ask you about an incident where you met with a man

23 called Vojo Kupresanin, President of the autonomous region of Banja Luka.

24 Do you recall meeting him?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 3979

1 Q. And I want to just ask you about that occasion when he started a

2 political discussion with you, which you found unable to take part in. Do

3 you recall that?

4 A. Yes, I remember.

5 Q. And may we take it from your evidence that you gave in 1996, that

6 it was a long conversation but principally a one-sided conversation in

7 which he took the main part?

8 A. No, it wasn't a long conversation. That first conversation in

9 that room was very short. It could have lasted, if I can just guess now,

10 according to what I remember, maybe some ten minutes or so, and it was

11 mostly a monologue. The conversation was cut off because there was a

12 phone call and then it was interrupted. He left and then he came back

13 after perhaps ten minutes or so, and then he told me to go with him to

14 Banja Luka. And then in the course of that conversation, he came out with

15 some of his views. Of course, in that situation, I kept quiet. To be an

16 inmate means to measure your every word. A word could save your life or

17 it could cause you to lose your life. I believe you understand these

18 circumstances.

19 Q. Was it during that part of the conversation that he explained to

20 you that what was going on in Bosnia was a Vatican conspiracy?

21 A. Yes, that's what he said.

22 Q. Did he expand on what he meant by a Vatican conspiracy?

23 A. He didn't explain that Vatican conspiracy in detail. I know he

24 said that for Serbs practically they were given to be executors --

25 executioners of the Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He spoke something

Page 3980

1 like that. I didn't participate in the conversation. I was simply

2 thinking about whether he was going to kill me that day, whether he was

3 going to kill me tomorrow, and would I survive at all. And this is the

4 only -- these were the only thoughts that were in my head. I was afraid

5 to say anything because everything was being listened to there.

6 I have to tell you another detail. Before Keraterm, I used this

7 opportunity and I asked one soldier, who probably felt sorry for me in the

8 situation that I was in, I asked him, "Are they going to kill me now or

9 later? How is this being done now?" And he said, "It doesn't mean that

10 they will -- that it doesn't have to mean that they will kill you. It all

11 depends on what you tell them." So that sentence stayed in my mind

12 continuously over the next few months. So I always tried to speak in a

13 way not to cause anger or not to bring judgement upon myself or provoke

14 anybody or do anything that would make me lose my life.

15 Q. When you had the conversation with Mr. Kupresanin, did you think

16 that what he was saying was completely bizarre?

17 A. You mean his statements that it was a Vatican conspiracy or?

18 Q. Well, that sort of thing. Did you think that that was just

19 completely extraordinary, bizarre, unbelievable?

20 A. Sir, those words, I did not hear them for the first time. For

21 months before that, we listened to Seselj's speeches or read his articles

22 in the press, where he spoke about the world-wide conspiracy and spoke

23 about all sorts of conspirators here and there and everywhere. So that

24 was not the vocabulary that I heard from Kupresanin for the first time.

25 One could read the newspapers long before all these events. It was a

Page 3981

1 vocabulary which became the standard idiom of the Serb politicians. I

2 wasn't interested in that. I did not much think about it. I was already

3 familiar with those theories and those views, and I didn't really spend

4 time on that. What I wanted was to save my life and not to threaten

5 anybody else's life, and that is how I behaved. All my behaviour there

6 and later was in that direction, because I realised that my -- the

7 possibilities of my -- the prospects of my survival were very, very small,

8 but there is something which is called fate, and I suppose it was owing to

9 fate that I am alive today.

10 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, I wasn't asking about other such views expressed

11 at other times. As you were sitting there listening to this man talking

12 about the Vatican conspiracy and so on, did you think that what he was

13 saying was mad, bizarre, extraordinary, unbelievable? Did those thoughts

14 cross your mind?

15 A. No, sir. Not for a single moment did I think about his words.

16 What I was thinking was, "Will foreign journalists who had recorded

17 Omarska the previous day take those images to the world? Will the world

18 see what is going on and will the world help us who were left behind?"

19 That is what I was thinking about. And I am telling you, I heard this on

20 various occasions repeatedly from different politicians and wasn't

21 surprised by that, but I was concerned with my life and my safety. I

22 didn't really -- I wasn't concerned with those statements. The only thing

23 that worried me was that he had started about politics, because I was

24 afraid that he might perhaps use the fact that I had survived and that

25 they might try to misuse me politically.

Page 3982

1 Q. Can you help me about this? There was an occasion when you saw

2 together two politicians from Prijedor, a Mr. Srdic and a Mr. Stakic. Do

3 you recall that?

4 A. Yes, I recall that, true.

5 Q. And can you tell us what, as far as you know, posts, did those two

6 men hold, at the time when you heard this conversation?

7 A. I don't know that, no, I didn't know that. How the positions, how

8 the posts were assigned in the Serb Democratic Party or the structure of

9 the Serb municipality established in the way that it was established, I

10 knew nothing about it as of the 25th, or rather the 24th May 1992. I

11 simply had no knowledge of that. But the fact itself that they turned up

12 there when -- at the same time when Karadzic came to Banja Luka and when

13 the foreign negotiator came there, that very fact speaks -- tells us that

14 they did hold some posts, but what posts, what offices, I don't know.

15 Q. Was the conversation that you overheard shortly before the 5th of

16 August 1992?

17 A. I cannot recall that. Which conversation do you mean? Prior to

18 the 5th of August?

19 Q. Let me help you. You were taken up the stairs by Mr. Kupresanin

20 and a police escort and you heard Messrs. Stakic and Srdic arguing with

21 people from Mr. Karadzic's group. Do you remember that? And a

22 conversation about buses?

23 A. I do, but it was in Banja Luka, not in Omarska.

24 Q. Yes?

25 A. That was in Banja Luka.

Page 3983

1 Q. And is this the position, that the people from Prijedor were

2 arguing with Mr. Karadzic's group about buses?

3 A. Only Srdjo Srdic was involved in the argument, Srdjo Srdic was

4 arguing and verbally abusing both Karadzic and Stakic. And it wasn't

5 August. It could have been sometime in early September, or perhaps end of

6 August, beginning of September, but I'm really not sure.

7 Q. Did you get the impression from that conversation that the people

8 from Prijedor were strongly opposed to the position being taken by

9 Mr. Karadzic's group?

10 A. As for the -- well, Stakic was one of Karadzic's group but

11 Mr. Srdic, who was once the SDS President, was obviously none of that at

12 the time and Mr. Srdic was angry, was cross, both with Karadzic and Stakic

13 because allegedly Karadzic has given all the power to the new municipal

14 mayors, and Stakic was one of them. That is what I overheard. And the

15 argument I heard was about that. Of course, there was mention of the bus

16 and some arsons in Prijedor which had not been agreed upon, but I have

17 already told you about that.

18 Q. When you first observed the camp at Trnopolje, it's right, isn't

19 it, that you formed the impression that the place was completely

20 disorganised? Do you accept that?

21 A. No. That was not the first impression I gained. I've already

22 explained in previous interviews that one day and one night, that is 24 --

23 for 24 hours, I was observing the area and from the distance that I was

24 at, I didn't get that impression. And it was only when I found a way how

25 to come closer, only when I came closer I realised that it wasn't all that

Page 3984

1 well organised or at least that is how it looked to me at the time. Later

2 on, it transpired when I entered that I -- that I was right.

3 I'm referring to the period when I went in. I learnt from people

4 who already were there that for about -- it was -- that about 15 or 20

5 days before that the discipline was very strict, that there were regular

6 lineups, call-outs, that certain people were persistently sought, but that

7 it had stopped in the meantime. But again in the meantime, a large number

8 of women and children had been brought in, so it was pretty chaotic

9 inside.

10 Q. And at what period was this when you observed these chaotic

11 conditions?

12 A. That could have been sometime in late July. Towards the end of

13 July.

14 Q. Of course you spent some time in the camp yourself, didn't you?

15 A. I did, yes, a few days.

16 Q. It's right, isn't it, that matters were so lax that prisoners,

17 detainees there, could simply go to a guard and ask to leave, couldn't

18 they?

19 A. Some, yes; some couldn't do that.

20 Q. When you say some were able to, how many people, within your

21 knowledge, were simply able to go to the guards and ask to leave the

22 camp?

23 A. I know of only a few men. Perhaps there were more, but you'd have

24 to ask other witnesses about that. I know about only a few men. And I

25 also know that a large number of people were afraid that their life might

Page 3985













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3986

1 come to an end in this camp because the experience a month before that

2 told them that they had cause for fear. There were people killed in the

3 camp itself; that is, some people taken away and never returned and the

4 next day six men buried. And I saw that and I testified about it. I was

5 the last person to talk to those people. No. Another man survived that

6 incident, and he could also testify about that.

7 So people were being taken out even during that disorganised

8 stage, as you called it.

9 Q. Did you also hear of people who were paying to be brought to

10 Trnopolje because it was thought, in fact, to be a safe haven?

11 A. No, I did not hear about that. I heard that people paid to be

12 taken out of Trnopolje.

13 Q. Did the guards try to persuade people to remain because it was

14 safer on the inside of Trnopolje?

15 A. I did not talk with the guards. My only encounter with the

16 guards, rather, the commander of the guards is something that I testified

17 earlier about, and that was the only contact that I had. With others, I

18 didn't talk. I saw them on several occasions as I was being taken into

19 the administrative building because they wanted to beat me. And also in

20 the administration building I saw three or four of them, but that was it.

21 I mean that was my only contact with the guards, so I wouldn't know that

22 detail.

23 Q. There were people who were at Trnopolje having food and other

24 materials brought to them by their families, were there not?

25 A. I've heard about that, yes. Say a man is detained, taken from his

Page 3987

1 home to the Trnopolje camp, and a few days later some women were allowed

2 to bring flour or some other food and hand it over so that those men could

3 eat. Yes, there were such instances. And I witnessed some of them or,

4 rather, I didn't see them with my own eyes this food being brought in, but

5 I saw that some people, yes, had some food and that they were eating.

6 The Serb authorities allowed that because that is how people

7 survived, and that is why they allowed some people in the camp to take a

8 wheelbarrow, go to a house, and if they could find some flour, then bring

9 it back so that it could be then used for cooking there in that large

10 cauldron for a number of people.

11 Q. Did you hear of people who were continuing to receive salaries

12 from their jobs back in Prijedor and elsewhere?

13 A. No. No, I did not.

14 Q. Did the people who were around you in Trnopolje, did they all

15 retain their identity documents?

16 A. Some must have known it. Some people discarded, threw away the

17 documents. Some burned them so as not to have them on them. Some kept

18 them. I'm referring to people that I did communicate a little in the camp

19 itself, with 15 people, and outside the camp I also spoke to several

20 people.

21 If you're asking me if it was a mass phenomenon that people were

22 either with their documents or without their documents, I'm afraid I

23 cannot answer that question.

24 Q. But may we conclude from what you've said that the Serb

25 authorities at the camp permitted people to retain their documents. It

Page 3988

1 was on the part of some people simply a personal decision to get rid of

2 them; is that right?

3 A. I do not know, sir, how people got in or were brought or entered

4 the Trnopolje camp. I know that some of those people were captured and

5 taken in. That is what I saw. How others got there, I do not know. All

6 I know with certainty is how I got there. Anything else, I really cannot

7 tell you. And after all, there were very many people there, and I believe

8 it will be very useful if you asked those people.

9 Q. I was asking you about identity cards, not how people got in and

10 out, Mr. Sejmenovic.

11 Is it the case that the Serb authorities at the camp permitted

12 people to retain their individual identity documents, and those people

13 that got rid of them took a personal decision to do so, it had nothing to

14 do with the Serb authorities?

15 A. I do not know, sir, who had his documents or not, because I did

16 not ask to see their IDs. People didn't have it their on foreheads. I'm

17 sorry, I have to say so. Whether people had their IDs or not, I really

18 didn't know about that, nor did I go around asking people, "Have you got

19 your identity card or your passport or what do you have?"

20 Q. The people who were at Trnopolje whilst you were in the camp,

21 would it be right to say that the Serb authorities could have killed them

22 all at any moment if they had so chosen?

23 A. I do not know that. I do not know that, and I really don't know

24 how to answer this question, whether somebody could kill off all the

25 people in Omarska or Trnopolje. That is something that I do not know. It

Page 3989

1 will be absurd for me to answer this.

2 Q. There was nothing physically to prevent it from happening, was

3 there?

4 A. Sir, what I can say, what I saw, is that there was the

5 organisation with regard to the taking in of people and the treatment of

6 the detainees. That I do know. It wasn't spontaneous.

7 Now, if you're asking me, if I may try to interpret your question,

8 why didn't the Serbs kill everybody in Trnopolje, could they do it, and if

9 they could, these are questions to which I have no answer. You're asking

10 me if the soldiers round the camp could --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sejmenovic.

12 Mr. Greaves, you're coming to an end?

13 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honours just give me a moment, please.

14 [Defence counsel confer]

15 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, I've just got one more question,

16 please.

17 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, can you just give us a little bit of detail about

18 the formation of political parties after the collapse of communism? Is it

19 right that the first political party to be formed was the SDA?

20 A. I think that that is, if my memory serves me well, if we are

21 talking about these three leading parties, but it wasn't formed as an

22 ethnically based party because it did not call itself the Muslim party.

23 And besides, that party recommended to bring in representatives of other

24 groups into our party.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 3990


2 Q. And the second party to be formed of the main ones was the HDZ; is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. And the final one of the three big parties was the SDS, and that

6 was formed last?

7 A. I'm not sure about the HDZ and SDS. I'm not sure which one came

8 first. I'm not sure.

9 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, no further questions.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

11 Mr. Sejmenovic, we will be taking a short adjournment. We will

12 return at ten minutes after four. During the adjournment, you are not to

13 discuss your evidence with anybody, including the members of the

14 Prosecution team.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic?

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, I'm going to ask a few questions. I think they

21 are very simple and they don't need that level of detail that you

22 demonstrated in responding to questions from my learned colleague,

23 Mr. Greaves. So hopefully we will complete this part very quickly. You

24 were actively involved in politics in this period before the war,

25 primarily in the Prijedor region; is that right?

Page 3991

1 A. [No translation]

2 Q. And while you were involved in politics in the region of Prijedor,

3 you had the opportunity to get to know all of the three or however many

4 sides there were that actively participated in the political life, and who

5 represented a political and economic elite in the town of Prijedor?

6 A. No, not with all of the people. With a number of those people,

7 yes.

8 Q. I assume that these were people who had influence on the events

9 that were happening in Prijedor at that time on the political scene?

10 A. Some yes, and some no.

11 Q. Did you ever hear that these people who are sitting behind us -

12 one of them is an unemployed worker, one is a worker at Celpak, and the

13 third is a private transporter - did you ever hear that they had any

14 influence on the political events in the Prijedor region up until May

15 25th, 1992?

16 A. No. I don't know the gentlemen who are sitting behind you.

17 Q. So in order to clarify, you don't know them, one, and two, they

18 did not have any influence over the political events and political trends

19 in Prijedor at that time?

20 A. No. I don't know about their engagement in the SDS. Perhaps they

21 were at some lower level or something.

22 Q. No, I'm not asking you what you assume. I'm asking you whether

23 you have any direct knowledge of that.

24 A. The fact is that they were not in the SDS leadership in Prijedor

25 and you are right in that.

Page 3992

1 Q. I would like to return briefly to the events that found you not

2 far from Keraterm. You said that the vehicle, the car that was taking you

3 from Trnopolje to the Prijedor Police Station, that it stopped in front of

4 a building which happened to be on the left side of the road, of the Banja

5 Luka-Prijedor road; is that true?

6 A. Yes. Looking towards Prijedor, it was on the left side.

7 Q. Do you know what was in that building before the war? Was this a

8 Kozara Put building, or something like that?

9 A. No. I don't know what was there before. I know it was some

10 company's building and it was a part of the -- in a part of the industrial

11 zone.

12 Q. Those couple of minutes that you spent in front of the building,

13 you saw that a large number of uniformed persons were entering that

14 building; is that true?

15 A. Yes, yes. They were going into the building, they were around the

16 building, some of them were coming out of it. Conditionally speaking, a

17 large number. Perhaps there was a total of ten people passing by at that

18 moment.

19 Q. Did you see members of the military police? Because they had the

20 white belts that they were wearing.

21 A. No, no. They weren't wearing white belts.

22 Q. Could you please clarify then how you knew that the military

23 police was housed in that building?

24 A. It was written on the building. I think it said "military

25 police." I think it was written on the building. I cannot be quite sure,

Page 3993

1 but I think it said on the building that it was the military police.

2 Q. Was there anything else written on the building?

3 A. No. I don't remember that it was.

4 Q. Did any of the people that you saw entering the building, did you

5 notice -- did they have any ranks or any kind of insignia on their

6 uniforms?

7 A. No, I don't remember that.

8 Q. You also said in your previous testimony before this Court, and I

9 think that was in the Kovacevic case, that you noticed, sitting there in

10 that car along the fence to Keraterm, that you noticed a large number of

11 people who were there.

12 A. Yes. Yes, I did, inmates.

13 Q. So they were inside the factory complex.

14 A. On the inside.

15 Q. Thank you. So you saw people along the fence, if I understood

16 properly what is stated here.

17 A. Yes. They were near the fence, close to the fence.

18 Q. Have you been in Prijedor recently?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You're talking about a fence around Keraterm. If we can agree,

21 this is a fence which is normally used to fence off industrial plants, and

22 it was used at Keraterm and at other places?

23 A. Yes. Yes. It was a fence that was fencing off the factory

24 compound.

25 Q. So the fence that was at Keraterm before was still there?

Page 3994

1 A. Yes, that's right. It was the same fence that was at the Keraterm

2 factory before it was a camp.

3 Q. You said that those people who -- these people who are sitting

4 here were not in the SDS leadership.

5 A. Yes. I don't know if -- I know that they weren't.

6 Q. Could you please wait a minute until I finish asking my question.

7 If we can agree about the following: In the political sense, they

8 were completely anonymous, as far as you knew? They were anonymous in

9 Prijedor before the war?

10 A. If we're talking about the municipal leadership, that level, yes,

11 they were anonymous. I only know people at that level.

12 Q. Of course they don't have anything to do with the republican or

13 any higher levels in the party.

14 A. I don't know if they have any connections with the local levels.

15 Q. I'm asking you about the republican levels, so could you please

16 respond to that.

17 A. No. No, they didn't have any function at the republican level.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. No further questions.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Petrovic.

20 Sir Ivan.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence:

22 Q. Did you know Zivko Knezevic?

23 A. I don't remember whether I knew Zivko Knezevic. No. No, I can't

24 remember.

25 Q. Was he a police commander before the war?

Page 3995













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3996

1 A. I don't know. I really don't know.

2 Q. Prijedor was divided in two halves, isn't it, by the railway

3 track. Operationally, as far as the government of the Prijedor was

4 concerned, it's divided by a railway track, isn't it?

5 A. I don't understand, sir. There was no division in the town.

6 Q. Administratively, Prijedor was divided in half. The area south of

7 the railway track was one part of -- administrative part of Prijedor, and

8 the area to the north of the town was another administrative division of

9 Prijedor; isn't that right?

10 A. I'm not familiar with that. I know that Prijedor was divided into

11 local communes, and I don't know where these local communes -- where their

12 borders are, but they don't follow the line of the railway. Puharska is

13 one local community, Cerska is another, and there's no railway there.

14 Centar is the third, Stari Grad is the fourth, and there are no railway

15 tracks there. So I don't understand what division you're talking about

16 based on the railway tracks.

17 Q. There were two police stations, is that right, during the war?

18 A. No. I don't know about that.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... was one.

20 A. I don't know that. I know that there was a police station in

21 Prijedor. When the attack took place, when the war started, I wasn't in

22 Prijedor, and I didn't ask anybody how many police stations there were.

23 This is something that I really don't know.

24 Q. I'm sorry. I misunderstood. I thought you came from Prijedor and

25 that you were a politician in Prijedor. Have I misunderstood that?

Page 3997

1 A. I am a politician from Prijedor at the level of the Assembly of

2 Bosnia and Herzegovina. At the local level, I lived in a part that is not

3 in the city or in the town of Prijedor. It is 16 kilometres away from

4 Prijedor. It's near Kozarac.

5 Q. So there isn't much point in me asking you about the

6 administrative divisions within the town of Prijedor.

7 A. Unfortunately, I don't know much about the administrative

8 division. I know in principle that the municipalities divided into local

9 communes, communities. Any other kind of division relating to the railway

10 tracks, this is the first that I am hearing about that, from you.

11 Q. All right. And it's no use me asking you any questions about

12 police chief -- a police chief called Zivko Knezevic?

13 A. No, no. I don't know Zivko Knezevic.

14 Q. Can you just have a look at this picture?

15 MR. LAWRENCE: I don't know whether we have to go into private

16 session to show a picture but --

17 JUDGE MAY: It's in the exhibits, isn't it?

18 MR. LAWRENCE: It came with the documents. I don't necessarily

19 need it shown. Perhaps the witness can just see it first.

20 Q. Do you recognize that man?

21 A. I think I've seen him somewhere, but I can't remember who the

22 person is, who it is.

23 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. It's no use if he doesn't know who it is.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps the Prosecution can tell us who it is. It's

Page 3998

1 in the exhibits.

2 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you. Well, in the interests of the time

3 constraints --

4 JUDGE MAY: Can we just find out who he is?

5 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'm looking at the back of the exhibit

6 and it's simply described as a photograph of an individual with purple

7 camouflage uniform.

8 JUDGE MAY: What was the point of exhibiting it?

9 MR. MUNDIS: It was exhibited in the Kovacevic trial, and when the

10 Chamber ordered the transcripts admitted, they ordered the accompanying

11 exhibits admitted as well. And it is one of the exhibits from the

12 Kovacevic trial which has been admitted into this case on the basis of the

13 Trial Chamber's ruling.

14 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you might find out who it is.

15 MR. MUNDIS: I can certainly do that, Your Honour.

16 MR. LAWRENCE: Any way I'm not suggesting it was Zivko Knezevic.

17 Well, in the interests of the time constraints, the Defence of Kolundzija

18 chooses not to ask any more questions of this witness and to adopt the

19 cross-examination of my learned friends.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.

21 Mr. Mundis?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Prosecution has no questions on redirect examination.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

24 Mr. Sejmenovic, that concludes your evidence and you are -- you

25 are released.

Page 3999

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 [The witness withdrew]


4 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, with the Chamber's indulgence, we would

5 ask for a brief recess. The next witness will be taken by Mr. Ryneveld.

6 We have emailed him to ask him to immediately attend to us but we haven't

7 yet received a response from him. I assume he's on his way.

8 JUDGE MAY: The advantages of modern science.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. We will break for ten minutes.

10 MR. LAWRENCE: I wonder if I could take the time usefully now,

11 rather than later, with the Tribunal.

12 We have a problem about timing. That is Kolundzija's Defence. If

13 the Prosecution finished the evidence by Friday, the 1st of June, then I

14 would need to make an application to the court to produce our submissions

15 of no case to answer under Article 98 bis in 14 days, not seven days. The

16 reasons are that we cannot reasonably be expected to complete it sooner.

17 I asked, as you recall, for four weeks to prepare the case. That

18 was refused because of the urgency of the need to deal with the witnesses

19 who were before us and the need to try to finish the case by the 1st of

20 June by the Prosecution. It looks as though we will finish by the 1st of

21 June, and that the Prosecution won't have the need for the extra seven

22 days that the court granted them. But it hasn't been possible for us to

23 deal, hitherto and until the completion of the evidence, with an

24 assimilation of the case and its preparation. Although both my learned

25 friend and I have been working 15 hours a day in order to close the gap

Page 4000

1 between the seven working days or the nine working days and the four weeks

2 that we asked for, we have had the problem of meeting with Kolundzija at

3 prison, which hasn't always been possible, and always takes an hour or two

4 of the day to process. Therefore, we haven't been able to concentrate on

5 assimilating all the arguments for the case while we have been taking

6 instruction from him as to the cross-examination of witnesses.

7 We have had to complete the taking of the proof from him, which I

8 indicated to the court sometime before, and time has been taken typing it

9 up. Time will be taken getting it translated for him into Serbo-Croat.

10 We have been trying to read the four weeks of evidence of the court

11 proceedings in the transcript. That's taken a vast amount of time. We

12 have had to consider the additional material from the Office of the

13 Prosecutor and the procedural matters from the Tribunal. We have had to

14 take time arranging for witnesses for the Defence. And it simply hasn't

15 been possible, and won't be possible until all the evidence is concluded,

16 for us to sit down, my learned friend and I, and produce the finished

17 submission in two languages and translated into Serbo-Croat for the

18 benefit of our client, in seven days.

19 There is the additional problem that we have to read the

20 judgements in several other trials, Tadic and Celebici in particular,

21 because of the jurisdictional, jurisprudential variations which exist in

22 the development of this court from the national domestic norms, and I only

23 have to indicate that under our system, certainly my system, back in the

24 United Kingdom, counts of the kind that have been charged against

25 Kolundzija might well be void for duplicity, but I understand there are

Page 4001

1 judgments which will have to be read and considered before we make any

2 submissions along those lines from these other trials.

3 Mr. Ostojic and myself cannot always be in the same geographical

4 place over those seven days. I've got to be in the United Kingdom; he's

5 got to be in the United States. The court will recall the circumstances

6 in which we both came into the case. We both had to rearrange our

7 domestic professional arrangements. We only accepted on the basis of

8 commitments that we had already entered into, and it would be very

9 unsatisfactory if we had to change.

10 I think the court may be aware that I was a Member of Parliament

11 for 23 years in my country. There is a general election in action. It

12 would be quite unthinkable that I played no part in that election

13 campaign, and people wouldn't understand why not. And it was a factor

14 that entered into my mind when I had to decide whether to come into this

15 case and be absent for most of the campaign.


17 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm coming to a conclusion.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, because I think we have the point.

19 MR. LAWRENCE: It is very -- it is impossible for our team to

20 produce in seven days ...

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan, we take --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We take into consideration the submissions that

25 you have made as to the difficulties that your team faces, and we will --

Page 4002

1 we will be giving a ruling on these matters tomorrow.

2 MR. LAWRENCE: Can I just add, respectfully, that what I'm asking

3 for is an extension for 14 days, and that means that we would be

4 presenting the Prosecution with our submissions so that they can respond

5 to them as soon after the seven days as possible.

6 Our application could be heard orally on the 25th of June if we

7 were given to the 18th and the Prosecution had their time to respond, and

8 that would be the extension of time that the Court had given to the

9 Prosecution in any event. So there wouldn't be a problem.

10 If the evidence is not finished by the 1st of June, so that there

11 is no evidence until the 18th, then the application that I make simply

12 won't arise because we will have that extra time anyway.

13 So it's only on the basis that the Prosecution case finishes by

14 the 1st of June that I make this application, and perhaps before a final

15 ruling is made, the Court might want to consider whether or not the case

16 is likely to finish on the 1st of June.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: It does seem that way, yes, and we are working

18 towards that. Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Ryneveld.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: If I might just make a comment with respect to my

21 learned friend's application. Two points, and that is, first of all, my

22 understanding that the Rules envisage no more than a ten-page motion or

23 3.000 words, whichever is greater, and no provision for oral argument, if

24 the Court is thinking of something else. Just I hear my friend raise

25 that.

Page 4003

1 And secondly, if when the Court makes its decision tomorrow,

2 perhaps might you also provide a scheduling order in terms of when the

3 Prosecution is due to file its response, because we're silent on that as

4 well.

5 I take no position with respect to my friend's motion, other than

6 to point out my understanding of the Rules, which is ten pages, no oral

7 argument, and -- there we are. And we do, God willing and circumstances

8 permitting, hope to finish by Friday.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, I did have a schedule which I was

10 going to announce this afternoon, but in light of the submissions made by

11 Sir Ivan, I will give further consideration and give the ruling tomorrow.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, in response to Judge May's question,

15 I've located in the transcripts where the photograph was introduced in the

16 Kovacevic trial, and if I could briefly describe --


18 MR. MUNDIS: -- what that provides for. It's on page 718 and 719

19 of the Kovacevic transcripts, which are not part of the marked or

20 indicated parts the Prosecution intended on relying on. My former

21 colleague Mr. Keegan showed this photograph to the witness, to the same

22 witness that testified, it appears from the transcript, for the limited

23 purpose of him identifying the type of uniform the individual in the

24 photograph was wearing, and at no point in the transcript did the witness

25 identify who this person was nor from the transcript was he apparently

Page 4004

1 asked to identify the person. It was simply to demonstrate the type of

2 uniform and the colour of the uniform that the individual in this

3 photograph is wearing.

4 So to answer Judge May's question, I have no idea who the person

5 in that photograph is.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. Yes.

7 Mr. Ryneveld, yes.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls its

9 next witness, formerly known as Witness K13, and we propose that this

10 witness be given the pseudonym Witness X, which I believe is the next

11 number in succession.

12 You will recall that this is the witness who was on the witness

13 stand, the Court granted protective measures, and was the subject of an

14 interlocutory appeal. That interlocutory appeal was granted by the

15 Appellate Court and he's available now to be called.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Does the Court have copies of the summary that was

18 just -- I've just prepared some while my colleague was -- do you have

19 these?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't have the copies.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps we could have those distributed while the

22 witness is being ...

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 4005













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 4006

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit. You may sit.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

5 MR. RYNEVELD: And I would ask that the first few questions be

6 permitted to be in private session.


8 [Private session]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4007

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, into open session. Yes.

6 [Open session]

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

8 Q. Now, sir, I understand that you -- you were arrested with your

9 four brothers and -- on the 14th of June 1992 in Sivci; is that correct?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. And were there a number of people arrested along with you and your

12 relatives?

13 A. Yes, quite a number of people from the neighbourhood of Kozarac,

14 those who had taken refuge in Sivci.

15 Q. And are you able to give the Court a rough figure as to about how

16 many people were arrested with you and your relatives on the 14th of June,

17 1992?

18 A. Well, I'd say we were about 350 or 400, perhaps even more. There

19 were five buses and they were all crammed, and the sixth bus went the

20 other -- took the other direction and went to Prijedor.

21 Q. And, sir, the people that were being arrested, can you tell us

22 their ethnicity?

23 A. Muslims.

24 Q. Who was doing --

25 A. There were some Croats perhaps.

Page 4008

1 Q. Who was doing the arresting?

2 A. Serb troops.

3 Q. Could you tell who was in charge of the troops that were arresting

4 you?

5 A. No. I knew nothing.

6 Q. Can you tell us how it was that you were arrested?

7 A. Well, quite simple. I was at home sitting there, and around 1.00

8 or a little later, they came, they broke into the house, took me out by

9 force. They didn't beat me then or anything, but then people from

10 other -- from my neighbours' houses came people. Then they took us to

11 the main road, and that is when they started to beat us, but there were

12 lots of people there already. And then it was, "Run, lie down," and they

13 were plundering and beating us.

14 Q. Who are "they" that were doing the beating?

15 A. The troops, what troops, Serb troops.

16 Q. Did you later recognise any of the people involved in your arrest

17 once you ended up --

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think the witness

21 answered the question precisely, that question which my learned friend

22 wishes to ask -- seeks answered. The witness has answered it a few

23 seconds earlier. This is the same question except that it is worded

24 differently.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 4009

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We think it's a fair question.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

3 Q. Sir, let me ask a preliminary question. Ultimately after your

4 arrest, were you taken somewhere?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where did you end up?

7 A. I was taken to Keraterm, to the camp in Keraterm.

8 Q. During your stay at Keraterm, did you recognise anyone at Keraterm

9 who had been involved in your arrest at Sivci?

10 A. Well, the one who commanded that group in Sivci. When I arrived,

11 I didn't know Kajin but when I got there, he -- I saw that he looked

12 identical with the one who had been in Sivci. And after that, I began to

13 look at him and I concluded that he could be the one.

14 Q. Could you describe the soldier who was involved in your arrest for

15 us? What did he look like at the time of the arrest?

16 A. Well, he looked fair-haired, tall. He first made us -- there were

17 many people who were bloody because the yard was full of people, and he

18 forced those who were bloody to wash themselves. He was sitting on a

19 chair. He had rather longish hair, fair-haired, tall, and he had

20 fingerless gloves, mitts.

21 Q. Do you remember how he was dressed?

22 A. Camouflage.

23 Q. How, sir, while were you being arrested, did you see what was

24 happening to any other persons who were being arrested at the same time as

25 you?

Page 4010

1 A. Well, I saw around there there were many people bloodied, many

2 people beaten and battered, and they forced us to sit down. And then I'm

3 not 100 per cent sure, the one that I think is Kajin, he was looking for

4 somebody called Senad Kenjar, called Maci, but he didn't know him. And

5 then he took a guy from Cejreci and he took him behind the house,

6 threatened to kill him, but he, that guy, ran from there and he wasn't

7 killed, but he was all bloody. And so they went on until the buses came

8 and then running to those buses and through Trnopolje by the camp there,

9 and they drove us into Keraterm.

10 Q. All right. Just before we start dealing with what happened at

11 Keraterm, as you were -- while you were still at Sivci before the buses

12 came, did you hear any sound of any shooting?

13 A. Oh, well, there was shooting on all sides. There was a tank too,

14 a war. There were dead. I learned that later. Yes, I immediately heard

15 that they were killed from those who were arriving from other parts of the

16 village to that same yard, that they were killed. And later on, I heard

17 that my father and another elderly man, that they had been buried, but

18 they had stayed behind since they were of advanced age, and women and

19 children.

20 Q. Let me ask you a couple of clarifying questions if I may. From

21 whom did you hear that these people had been killed? Who told you that?

22 A. Well, those who had come to that same yard, who also went to

23 Keraterm with me.

24 Q. And who did you -- did you hear who had been killed, how many

25 people had been killed?

Page 4011

1 A. Well, I don't know. They were saying 10, 11, and that proved to

2 be accurate.

3 Q. Did you know or were you told whether these people who were killed

4 were civilians or whether they had been participating in a war, whether

5 they were armed combatants?

6 A. Well, it's all the same. Those who were perhaps away from the

7 house or away from the road, they fared worse.

8 Q. Perhaps you didn't understand my question, sir. Let me rephrase

9 it. Do you know whether the people who were reported to you to have been

10 killed were civilians or soldiers?

11 A. Civilians 100 per cent. None of them had a uniform on or a

12 soldier in the village.

13 Q. Sir, you told us that you were taken to Keraterm by buses; is that

14 correct?

15 A. It is.

16 Q. And while there, is it safe to say that -- I don't know if my

17 friends want me to lead on this or not. Perhaps I won't. What happened

18 when you got to Keraterm?

19 A. We were all frightened, and the same thing as before here. There

20 was a welcoming party for us again, beating, hands to the bus,

21 plundering. Zigic came with a bloody knife, getting everything, "Take out

22 everything from your pockets. If I find anything on anyone, I'll slit his

23 throat." They beat -- we threw away the documents that we still had on

24 us. And then into the dormitories.

25 Q. What room were you placed into, sir?

Page 4012

1 A. In Room 2.

2 Q. And in terms of Room 2, were you -- whereabouts were you in the

3 room? Were you near the door, near the back, one of the sides?

4 Whereabouts were you?

5 A. First I went, I was in the back part of the room, in the

6 beginning. But it was so hot I couldn't breathe, and then I moved and I

7 then was -- after that, I was next to the door, to, on the right.

8 Q. How far away from the door would you say your place was?

9 A. Next to the door, by the door, the left door. As you open it, I

10 was right next to it on the left-hand side.

11 Q. In Room 2, was the door a solid partition or could you look

12 through -- can you perhaps describe to us whether or not you had

13 opportunity to look out when the doors were locked?

14 A. No, not when locked because -- there was a small gap next to the

15 door. At first there was only a door without bars but later on they made

16 bars so that the door was open, and if it was a better shift -- if a worse

17 shift was on, that they would sometimes close it so, and leave us without

18 air.

19 Q. As long as the bars were in place, were you able to see out from

20 your position where you were in Room 2?

21 A. I could, yes. Well, I'd have to move a little, to move away for

22 about a metre and 30 to look through the whole door, but there was this

23 gap next to the door, and I could look through that, but not as much as.

24 Q. Sir, is it fair to say that you were in Keraterm from the 14th of

25 June, when you were arrested, until the camp closed on the 5th of August?

Page 4013

1 A. Yes, that is right.

2 Q. During the course of that period of time, did you become aware of

3 whether or not there was a hierarchy or a camp structure?

4 A. Well, what do I know? We were simply terrified, because of

5 evening they would come, enter, beat. They entered as they pleased in the

6 beginning. I knew nothing.

7 Q. During the course of your stay at Keraterm, did you ever hear the

8 name Sikirica?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. In what sense? Tell us what you know about the individual,

11 Sikirica.

12 A. Well, I heard them mention that he was the camp commander, that he

13 was the boss here, that sort of thing.

14 Q. Did you know Mr. Sikirica before the war?

15 A. No, I didn't. I didn't know anyone.

16 Q. Could you describe the individual that you learned to be Sikirica

17 as he was when you were in Keraterm?

18 A. He looked fuller or perhaps because I was so thin. He had a

19 moustache. He looked very strongly built.

20 Q. How tall?

21 A. Well, not particularly. One hundred seventy something. I'm not

22 really good at that.

23 Q. During the course of your time at Keraterm, how often would you

24 have had an opportunity to see Mr. Sikirica?

25 A. Well, not all that often. I'd see him in the morning when those

Page 4014

1 who interrogated came. Then there would be a van to bring in those

2 inspectors, as they called them. He would pass by. He usually would

3 spend some time next to the weigh bridge, and when these would finish

4 working, those inspectors, then he come with a list and would call out

5 somebody, and that one he called out presumably went to Omarska or would

6 be back in the unit but beaten good and proper.

7 Q. Sir, you were there from the 14th of June until the 5th of August,

8 and just roughly that's about seven weeks; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Over that period of time of seven weeks, are you able to give the

11 Court an approximation of how often, how many times you would have had an

12 opportunity to see the individual you know to be Sikirica?

13 A. I cannot tell you exactly. I saw him around a number of times.

14 Q. Did you have any opportunities to see him close up or to see him

15 in good lighting?

16 A. Yes. Yes, I did, when he called out two buses; that is, just

17 before the camp was closed down, he was standing there and calling out.

18 The name of the last one he called out was Mehmed Alkazovic, so if you

19 ever come by that list --

20 Q. I'll get to that incident later on in your evidence, sir. What

21 I'm asking you now is how many times and did you have opportunity. You've

22 told us that you did have an opportunity to look at him.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Sir, since your stay at Keraterm, have you been shown any

25 photographs of any individuals identified to you as Sikirica?

Page 4015













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 4016

1 A. No.

2 Q. Have you ever seen any television footage of an individual who is

3 suggested to be Mr. Sikirica prior to coming here today?

4 A. No. Last time I saw all three of them, since last time that I was

5 here. Otherwise, I'm trying to forget as much as possible from before.

6 Q. When you say "last time," is that when you were sitting where you

7 are now but did not get to give evidence? Is that what you're referring

8 to?

9 A. Yes. Yes, that's what I'm thinking of.

10 Q. What do you want to tell us about that time? What did you see?

11 A. I saw that they have changed. Sikirica has changed the most.

12 Q. Would you recognise the individual you refer to as Sikirica if you

13 were to see him again, sir?

14 A. Yes, I would.

15 Q. Can you look around the courtroom now and tell us if he is in the

16 courtroom and if so, where?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves.

18 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, in my submission, the ground which has

19 been laid indicates, in my submission, that he's had really very little

20 contact with this man, and I submit there isn't a proper basis for this

21 identification to be carried out.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber considers that a sufficient

24 foundation has been laid.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

Page 4017

1 Q. Sir, do you see the individual that you refer to as Sikirica in

2 the courtroom today?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Can you tell us where in the courtroom he is?

5 A. On the left side, next to the first police officer.

6 Q. And in terms of seats, chairs from left to right, there are six

7 seats at the back. Are you able to count from left to right? I think you

8 said the second person. Is he sitting in the second chair? Is that what

9 you're trying to say?

10 A. Yes, in the second chair.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: For the record, Your Honours, witness identifies

12 the accused.



15 Q. Now, sir, you've told us about the camp commander. Were there any

16 shift commanders?

17 A. I heard that there were, but I don't know. There would be talk.

18 There's Kole, Kajin, a guy called Fustar, although I wasn't really very

19 interested in that.

20 Q. All right, sir. You mentioned someone --

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Turning to paragraph 9, Your Honours.

22 Q. You mentioned someone by the name of Kajin that you say you heard

23 was a shift commander; is that correct?

24 A. Yes. I heard that from others.

25 Q. How often during your stay at Keraterm would you have -- well,

Page 4018

1 first of all, did you ever see an individual who was referred to by that

2 name while you were at Keraterm?

3 A. You mean Kajin?

4 Q. Correct.

5 A. Yes. I saw him many times.

6 Q. Under what type of circumstances? How often would you see him and

7 what opportunities for observation did you have?

8 A. Good. I could see him from close, from the room, in all kinds of

9 ways.

10 Q. And did you ever have an opportunity to see him up close in good

11 lighting?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. One or more than one occasion?

14 A. More than one occasion. He would come to the door, lean against

15 the wire. Sometimes he was drunk; sometimes he wasn't. He would give us

16 lectures and so on. Also, outside when we would go to eat what little we

17 were given to eat, I would see him then.

18 Q. Are you able to give the Court an approximation of how often you

19 would have seen this person you refer to as Kajin during your stay, during

20 the seven weeks at Keraterm?

21 A. Well, I don't know how to tell you how many times. Many times,

22 lots of times.

23 Q. You indicated to us earlier that you became familiar with the name

24 of a person by the name of Kajin while at Keraterm, and that you

25 subsequently made the connection between that person and the officer who

Page 4019

1 was involved in your arrest; is that correct?

2 A. Yes. He didn't have any rank. He wasn't an officer. He was

3 just -- he was only wearing a camouflage uniform.

4 Q. Sorry, my mistake. You did not say "officer." The soldier or

5 individual who was involved in your arrest at Sivci; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sir, you've told us that that individual was a tall man. Are you

8 able to put a number or are you able to give the court an approximation of

9 how tall the person you knew as Kajin was?

10 A. I've just said that that's really not my strong side, but he's

11 taller than me. Maybe 180. He is much taller than I am, perhaps taller

12 than 180.

13 Q. Sir, have you seen any photographs or television footage of the

14 individual referred to as Kajin since your stay at Keraterm and coming to

15 court today?

16 A. Last time I was here.

17 Q. What happened last time you were here?

18 A. Well, nothing. I came in, I sat down in the courtroom. I said I

19 wished for a secret or --

20 Q. Yes?

21 A. -- private hearing, and then I just looked at them.

22 Q. And when you did that, did you recognise anyone?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Sir, I should ask you this question. Were you shown any

25 photographs or television footage when you were here last day?

Page 4020

1 A. No.

2 Q. Are you telling this court that you recognise the individual that

3 you refer to as Kajin last day?

4 A. The last time.

5 Q. Yes. Again, that's my -- I phrased it badly. The last time you

6 were here, sitting where you are now, did you recognise the person that

7 you refer to as Kajin in this courtroom?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you see that person here today?

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I object in as much as I don't

13 think that enough basis has been laid for identification. The witness did

14 not even try to describe the person he names as Kajin. And I think it's

15 important for him to describe the way that person looked at the time that

16 he claims to have seen that person at Keraterm. I think that just giving

17 information about the height of this person is not sufficient information

18 for identification.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may, Your Honour?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld?

21 MR. RYNEVELD: The witness had been asked questions about the

22 description as the person looked at Sivci and gave evidence that the

23 person looked identical. I didn't go through the process of asking him

24 further descriptive features at Keraterm but he's already given that just

25 seconds earlier.

Page 4021

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. Mr. Petrovic?

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, just one

3 more sentence. That precisely is being contested. He saw that person in

4 Sivci. Several times he said he wasn't sure, he doesn't know 100 per

5 cent, that he's not sure that it's the same person that he later saw at

6 Keraterm. And I believe that the Prosecutor is just trying to do that

7 very thing, to make the persons that this person saw at Sivci and Keraterm

8 identical. But the witness is really not sure of that. And he did say

9 that several times, with all due respect, Your Honours.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We consider that a sufficient basis has

12 been laid for the identification.


14 Q. Witness, do you see the person you've been referring to as Kajin

15 in the courtroom today?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Can you tell us where he is sitting?

18 A. Kajin is sitting in the fourth chair from the left.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: For the record, the witness identifies the accused.



22 Q. Did you see Kajin involved in any matters at Keraterm?

23 A. I saw him calling people out at night, mistreating them, and so

24 on. I don't know. He would make up some things in -- he simply provoked

25 people. He was very good at smuggling. He would bring these to people

Page 4022

1 and force them to sell them. They would have to sell them to inmates and

2 then give back the money. Then he would lock us up, saying we were much

3 safer. Then he would leave. And then after these people would beat

4 people up, then he would come on his motorbike. He would shout at them,

5 "What have you done?" And then they would all start laughing. These

6 people who were doing the abusing and him, they would laugh together.

7 Q. Sir, do you ever recall seeing prisoners being forced to

8 participate in some kind of a game?

9 A. Yes, several times.

10 Q. Can you describe what type of game and who, if anyone, was present

11 when this was happening?

12 A. Yes. This would happen during Kajin's shift. He would -- he and

13 that group would tell one inmate that he was a horse and that the other

14 was a coachman, so that then this one would have to chase him, and if he

15 doesn't catch him, somebody from the soldiers would hit him. And they

16 would make them go faster and faster until these people fell down. Then

17 they would put a dead person on a wheelbarrow and they would make that

18 person march, and then they would throw them into the container. Then

19 they would make people sing Chetnik songs. I can't remember, but there

20 were a lot of things that they devised.

21 Q. Did you ever see Kajin present during any of these things that

22 you're just telling us about?

23 A. There, outside, in the beginning, there was a truck. I would see

24 Kajin, people would be called out, they would be beaten right along that

25 wall. You could hear people moaning. You could hear the -- them being

Page 4023

1 hit. But I was never there when they were being called out.

2 Q. Would this have been within view or --

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, objection to the

4 translation. The witness said, "I couldn't see but I could hear." And

5 this is what the witness said but that is not in the transcript.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's noted, yes.


8 Q. Are you able to say whether you ever saw Kajin present when any of

9 these things that you've just told us about occurred?

10 A. Yes, I saw him.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I'm finished paragraph 10. I note

12 the time. I don't know what time the court intends to sit.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think, with the cooperation of the

14 interpreters, we will go to 5.30.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

16 Q. Sir, during your stay at Keraterm, do you know whether prisoners

17 were ever called out at night?

18 A. Several times. Practically every night. In Kole's shift, this

19 didn't happen so much.

20 Q. How about the other shifts?

21 A. People would be taken out non-stop, beaten, abused, the way people

22 felt.

23 Q. Could you hear who was calling these people out?

24 A. Sometimes I would hear Kajin. Sometimes I didn't dare to look.

25 Sometimes the door would be closed and you could just hear him calling,

Page 4024

1 "Get out," and then the beating would start.

2 Q. How do you know it was Kajin that was calling out these people?

3 Did you recognise his voice, and if so, how?

4 A. By his voice, but I saw him. I saw him personally calling people

5 out.

6 Q. Did he have any kind of a distinctive voice that you were able to

7 recognise?

8 A. I don't know. He spoke in a calm way, quietly, unless he was

9 shouting. I said before that he used to come and lecture us. This

10 shouldn't have happened. "Why did you do this? Two hundred of ours were

11 killed at Kozarac and 5.000 to 8.000 of yours were killed." He was always

12 doing something like that. He would push his pistol through the bars.

13 Q. From the opportunities you had to hear Kajin speak, were you able

14 to identify his voice?

15 You've just told us about a couple of times that he spoke to the

16 prisoners. From those conversations, do you feel that you were able to

17 recognise his voice when you heard his voice call names out?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. What would happen to the men who were called out?

20 A. Well, they beat them. Some of them died. Some of them were

21 brought into the rooms and they would die by morning.

22 Q. Did you know a man called Zigic during your stay at Keraterm?

23 A. Not from before. I met him at Keraterm.

24 Q. Yes. That was my question. During your stay at Keraterm, did you

25 become familiar with a man later identified to you as Zigic?

Page 4025













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 4026

1 A. Yes, yes. Everybody met him.

2 Q. Can you relate to the Court any incident of things that Zigic did

3 while on Kajin's shift?

4 A. I don't know. He came -- I don't know about this first time. I

5 don't know whether that was Kajin's shift or not. This happened right at

6 the beginning. Once they came in a Mercedes, Zigic and some others, and

7 they started beating people. And I'm not sure whether that was during

8 Kajin's shift. The bars were not on the doors at that time.

9 Later, he came again and this was during Kajin's shift, and he

10 called out ten people to the toilet.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

12 A. They would go out. They would be beaten. There was a lot of this

13 abuse. Then the doctor would come and then the hurt people would be ...

14 Q. Would be what? I'm sorry. The translation stopped after "The

15 doctor would come and then the hurt people would be..." My question was:

16 What would happen to the hurt people?

17 A. No. Zigic would come and then he would say, "The doctor is

18 here." Ten of them were supposed to go to the bathroom first. Then they

19 would beat them up there. Later then, he would say "The doctor is

20 coming." Then on one occasion he took out some people who were hurt and

21 then he beat those people up.

22 On one occasion, allegedly a doctor came, but the doctor

23 actually -- it wasn't a doctor. Those people who were hurt, there was one

24 with a hurt arm, and they were thinking that perhaps he would help them,

25 but he didn't. He just took turns on all of them.

Page 4027

1 Q. I see. How do you know that this incident about taking ten men to

2 the toilet was during Kajin's shift? You say you were not sure about the

3 first incident, but you say that this incident you've talked about was on

4 Kajin's shift. How do you know that?

5 A. Yes. Kajin was there. Zigic came. Zigic would go in and go out

6 as he liked. He could come any time he wanted. But it was Kajin's shift

7 at that time.

8 Q. Sir, I believe you've already told us about an incident where

9 Kajin came to lecture the prisoners and told the prisoners something about

10 200 got killed at Kozarac, et cetera. Were there any other conversations

11 that you recall where Kajin came to speak to the prisoners?

12 A. Yes. He would come. There were things that needed to be sold.

13 Others worked for them. He would order Kajin, "This must be sold," and if

14 it doesn't, then he would take people out.

15 Q. When Kajin came to lecture you, can you tell us his state of

16 sobriety? In other words, did he appear to be completely normal or under

17 the influence of anything?

18 A. It is my personal opinion that sometimes he pretended to be

19 drunk. Once maybe he was drunk when he was pushing his gun through the

20 bars. If he was drunk, he wouldn't be able to drive or ride his motorbike

21 the way he did. He would have an accident. He would crash. So I think

22 that he was sober but that he pretended to be drunk.

23 Q. You've told us as well, sir, that -- perhaps I should ask you in a

24 different way.

25 Who would lock the door during Kajin's shift?

Page 4028

1 A. Kajin. He had the keys. He would lock us up. And I mentioned

2 that he would take his motorbike and then he would go somewhere. Then

3 others would come. They would unlock the door. They would call people

4 out, beat people. This would be repeated, and then he would come back and

5 he would shout at them. The people who couldn't walk would be carried

6 into the room. Not by them but by the other inmates. And then they would

7 laugh, Kajin and those people who had beaten the people up.

8 Q. Could you hear Kajin laughing with them after complaining to the

9 people?

10 A. Yes, I heard.

11 Q. How could these people unlock your door to get people out, if

12 Kajin had the keys?

13 A. He probably left them on the weigh bridge or -- but I just know

14 that they did unlock the door.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm going to ask just paragraph 16 before I

16 propose -- it looks like we will then be at 5.30, Your Honours.

17 Q. Sir, do you remember going to the toilet when something happened

18 to you, coming back from the toilet? Let me rephrase it. Do you recall

19 an incident where you were coming back from the toilet, when you were

20 apprehended by someone and something happened to you?

21 A. Yes, I remember. One time I was coming back from the toilet and I

22 was stopped by Banovic. "Who let you out?" "I don't know. They just let

23 me go." And he said, "Who let you out? Open your mouth." And he pushed

24 his gun into my mouth.

25 Q. And then what happened?

Page 4029

1 A. I don't know. Somebody called him back there, and he said, "Get

2 back to your room." But he would do that every day.

3 Q. Do you know whose shift that was on?

4 A. I don't remember exactly, because you could see Kajin, when it

5 wasn't his shift, Banovic, he would simply come on his motorbike. So I

6 can't really tell whose shift it was.

7 Q. Do you recall any incident, sir, when you were forced to bang your

8 head against something?

9 A. Yes, I remember.

10 Q. Can you tell us about that incident?

11 A. I was ordered --

12 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter did not catch the

13 answer of the witness. I apologise.


15 Q. Stop there, sir.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Would you just have him repeat the answer?

17 Because the interpreters didn't get it. I didn't get it.


19 Q. My question was: Do you recall an incident, sir, when you were

20 forced to bang your head against something. You said, "Yes, I remember."

21 And I asked you to tell us about that incident. What you said, the

22 interpreter didn't understand. Could you repeat your answer, please?

23 A. Yes, I remember. On one occasion, I was outside and one of the

24 guards ran inside and he stopped me and one other inmate. I was ordered

25 to hit my head against the wall, against the wall of Keraterm, and I kept

Page 4030

1 hitting stronger and stronger but it didn't really hurt so much. Then the

2 two of them threw me against the wall and I lost my consciousness. And

3 then somebody said, "Leave them alone. Let them go," something like that,

4 and then I went inside. The other person who was with me, he had to do

5 push-ups, and then he couldn't get up. So one of the soldiers stepped on

6 the back of his head and he pushed him and hit him down against the

7 ground.

8 Q. Do you know whose shift was on duty on that occasion?

9 A. I think it was Kajin's shift.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object. The witness

11 said he didn't know whose shift it was, and you can hear that on the audio

12 tape. And now he said he didn't know, and now he says he knows whose

13 shift it was. That was two minutes ago.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I know.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If this is controversial, I would

17 like to -- for us to check the audio where we can hear the witness say

18 that he does not know whose shift it was.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, Your Honour, I believe that my

20 learned friend may, like I, thought we were dealing with paragraph 16.

21 It's quite clear that the witness was relating a different incident and is

22 now been addressed to address this incident. I think there are two

23 separate incidents. I think the first incident, he indicated he did not

24 know whose shift it was, and this incident is a different incident.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is -- what paragraph is this?

Page 4031

1 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm asking now about paragraph 16.


3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, only

4 one sentence. The witness is saying, as much as I can understand, we all

5 understand, he is referring to an incident when he was forced to hit -- or

6 rather when his head was beaten against the tin plate, and this is the

7 incident we are talking about, and there was no transcript for that

8 particular incident, and my learned friend asked him once again about that

9 incident, and about that incident the witness said that he did not know

10 whose shift was on. There are now two incidents. There is this one

11 incident that we are talking about and which was not in the transcript. I

12 believe this is quite clear and obvious, if one acts with good intention.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... I don't

14 understand that.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you remember a couple

16 of seconds we had a problem with the transcript because the answer to the

17 question was not in the transcript and that is why my learned friend asked

18 the question once again. I can even tell you which minute it was. It was

19 only a few seconds ago.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Do I take my friend to say that the witness said

21 something that he understood in his language that did not show its way on

22 the transcript? Is that what my friend is saying?

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in 1728 -- at 1728 is

24 when we speak about this incident and it is very easy to see that. There

25 are two letters "A," at some point there was simply no transcript and for

Page 4032













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 4033

1 the simple reason -- for that simple reason, the question was asked again

2 about that same incident. And so could my learned friend look at it and I

3 believe he will agree with me when he has looked at that.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We will take the evening to check into that

5 and give our ruling tomorrow.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Apart from getting that matter clarified, I would

9 propose to start next at paragraph 20, and I note the time. I'm in your

10 hands. Otherwise, I would simply ask the witness one more question and

11 that is does he know whose shift that's on, but I believe that's something

12 you want to rule on.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

14 Witness X, we are going to take the adjournment for the evening.

15 We will return tomorrow at 9.30. During the adjournment, you are not to

16 discuss your evidence with anybody, including the members of the

17 Prosecution team.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

20 5.35 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday the 29th day

21 of May, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.