010529ed

Page 4035

1 Yes, Sir Ivan? Okay.

2 Well, yesterday when we broke, there was a point in issue which

3 the Chamber has examined, and this is our finding: In relation to the

4 particular matter, the Prosecutor asked an open-ended question intending

5 to have the witness testify about events in paragraph 16 of the summary.

6 In fact, the witness recounted another experience when he was intercepted

7 on his way back from the toilet by one of the Banovic brothers. That's

8 paragraph 24 of the summary. It was in relation to this incident that the

9 witness stated he did not know whose shift it was.

10 The Prosecutor then sought to direct the witness back to paragraph

11 16. The witness provided the relevant elements, and in relation to this

12 incident he stated that he thought it was Kajin's shift.

13 So you may continue, Mr. Ryneveld.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I propose at

15 this point, that matter having been clarified, to commence the

16 examination-in-chief at paragraph 20 of our summary.

17 WITNESS: WITNESS X [Resumed]

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld: [Continued]

20 Q. [redacted]-- or, rather, Witness X, I believe.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry, that will have to be edited.

22 Q. Did you during your time at Keraterm know an Ismet Garibovic?

23 A. I did, yes.

24 Q. And are you able to tell the Court at this time what, if anything,

25 to your knowledge happened to Ismet Garibovic?

Page 4036

1 A. Well, first they looked for Ismet Garibovic - he owned a shop -

2 and he wouldn't respond, but they nevertheless found him in Room 2 and

3 took him out and requested money and beat him. I had a leather jacket,

4 and he asked me to give it to him when they took him out in the evening.

5 He -- I gave it just to slightly ease the pain, and whenever he returned

6 it to me, I'd have -- I'd see bloodstains on that jacket.

7 Q. Do you know who it was who called Mr. Garibovic out?

8 A. Well, it would be at night-time, but I know it was Kajin's shift.

9 These things happened on Kajin's shift.

10 Q. Did you know any of the guards by name who would have been

11 involved in calling out Mr. Garibovic which led you to the conclusion that

12 it was Kajin's shift?

13 A. I don't know the names of the guards.

14 Q. Did you know a Vasif Mujkanovic?

15 A. I did, yes.

16 Q. Can you tell the Court what, if anything, to your knowledge

17 happened to that individual at Keraterm?

18 A. Well, there was always the story, "You're leaving today. The camp

19 is disbanded. You're going tomorrow," and then one day the news spread

20 that whoever had a hundred marks would be transferred to Trnopolje. And

21 when he came, he said, "Well, had I known, I would have given them

22 money." I supposed he had the money and he told somebody. And that

23 somebody may have snitched on him, because he was out; that is, Banovic

24 took him out; that is, Vasif told me that when he returned, because he was

25 frightened out of his wits. He cut his shirt here and took out 900 marks

Page 4037

1 from there and 4.000 shillings he also had sewn on.

2 Q. Did this individual tell you what happened to him after he paid?

3 Did I understand you to say that he had this money sewn into his

4 clothing? You said he took it out of his shirt. You were pointing to

5 where?

6 A. Yes, he had it sewn in. And Banovic took him out and said,

7 "Money." He said, "I've got no money." But then he hit him here behind

8 the neck and cut his shirt and took it out, and somewhere lower he also

9 had this money. And then he ran into the dormitory, and he was frightened

10 out of his wits, all black.

11 Q. Okay. There's a couple of questions I have of you in relation to

12 what you've just told us. First of all, when you say he was all black,

13 what does that mean?

14 A. Head stiff as he hit him here. I think when he hit him here, he

15 said that he thought that his head would fall off because this blow was so

16 heavy.

17 Q. So you saw evidence that the man had been struck. Is that what

18 you're saying, that he looked all black to you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did this individual, Vasif Mujkanovic, also tell you what had

21 happened to him? Is that how you got your information?

22 A. I learned that he had said that. He said which of the inmates had

23 said that he had something. And he had told one that he would have given

24 a hundred marks had he known. And that one snitched on him, and this news

25 reached Banovic and he took him out.

Page 4038

1 Q. Perhaps my question wasn't clear. Vasif was a friend of yours,

2 was he?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. He was in your room, was he?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You were there when he was called out?

7 A. I was, but they took him behind the wall. Banovic took him out

8 onto the path. I didn't see what happened, but when he returned, he was

9 all black. He was shaking and his shirt was cut here.

10 Q. So you saw him when he returned and you saw his cut shirt; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did that individual tell you how his shirt got cut and how his

14 neck got black? Was he the one who provided you with the information as

15 to what happened to him?

16 A. He told me all of that I've just told you.

17 Q. Thank you. That's what I was trying to find out, sir.

18 Mujo, Sivac, did you know him?

19 A. Yes. It is a neighbour of mine.

20 Q. And what, if anything, do you know happened to Mujo Sivac?

21 A. Same thing; they asked for money. When we were brought to the

22 camp, he just happened to have hidden on him, it stayed with him, and he

23 took from the guards a little bit of food, and then they found out he had

24 money and they began to take him out every evening and to beat him.

25 I would also give him my leather jacket when he would come out,

Page 4039

1 and that evening he said, "Could I have it?" So one night they beat him,

2 and my brother and I took him to the WC between us. And as we were coming

3 back, Banovic asked, "Where were you?" And we said that we were taking

4 him along because he couldn't walk under his own steam. And Banovic then

5 took a pencil and said, "What's your name?" and took my name down and

6 said, "We'll meet tonight."

7 Q. Did he in fact carry out what he had suggested to you, Banovic?

8 Did he in fact call you out that night?

9 A. I expected one moment to the next when he would take you out, and

10 it is horrible when you are waiting for them to come and take you out.

11 But it was raining, and a rather large group of about 50 or 100 people had

12 arrived from Elezi, another community, and he forced them to run in a

13 circle, and they ran in those circles in front of Room 2. I don't know

14 how long. People were falling down. But I managed somehow to get through

15 that night. I wasn't called out that night.

16 Q. When you have been talking about Banovic, both in relation to Mujo

17 and Ismet and Vasif, do you know whether that person Banovic is known by

18 any nickname?

19 A. Yes. People called him Cupo.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Cupo, and people knew him because he often had the baseball bat

22 with him and used it to beat people. He behaved -- he simply was bent on

23 showing that he was there. He teased people.

24 Q. Do you know whose shift Banovic, Cupo, was on?

25 A. I cannot tell you exactly, but I can tell you, and I said that

Page 4040

1 yesterday, he could come whenever he pleased. You could see him at night,

2 by day.

3 Q. Sulejman Sivac, do you know him or did you know him?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Was there something unusual about Sulejman Sivac?

6 A. Yes. He was very tall. He was over two metres.

7 Q. And can you tell the Court about an incident involving Mr. Sivac?

8 A. Well, again, Banovic saw him. "Where have you been, what --" and

9 tried to hit him with a fist, but Banovic is short, and this one

10 straightened out so Banovic missed. He simply couldn't reach up there.

11 And then Banovic was angry and forced him to sit down, and they were

12 roughly about the same height. And when that happened, we laughed and the

13 troops laughed, but Banovic was very angry because of that and started to

14 beat him.

15 Q. And you personally saw Banovic beating this individual, this very

16 tall man? You personally saw that?

17 A. Yes, I did see that.

18 Q. Yes. I think you've already told us about an incident where a gun

19 was put in your mouth, and I'm going to skip down now to a Besim Hrgic.

20 Did you know a Besim Hrgic while you were at Keraterm?

21 A. I met him in Keraterm. I didn't know him before.

22 Q. And can you tell us about what you know of Besim Hrgic that you

23 learned at Keraterm?

24 A. Well, Besim was receiving some parcels and some tablets, and he

25 was a good man. He gave those tablets to whoever needed them. People

Page 4041

1 addressed him as Professor. And a soldier, Kondic, that's what his name

2 was, he brought him those parcels.

3 And one evening he was called out, and he jumped up thinking it

4 was a parcel, but they began to beat him right there and then in front of

5 Room 2. And first he resisted, but then he started to moan. Then he

6 passed out, and they just threw him out into the room. His trousers were

7 down. There were cuts on his body. One could see that he was not [as

8 interpreted] bleeding, and he died there. He was beaten to death.

9 Q. Do you know who it was called him out?

10 A. I don't. Kondic was the one who usually brought him those

11 parcels. He'd just cry out, "Professor, a parcel." There were a number

12 of them.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I'm going to skip now from paragraph

14 26 where I was all the way to paragraph 35.

15 Q. Sir, did you know a Mesud Hopovac?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. And do you know whether Mesud was at Keraterm?

18 A. Yes. Mesud came later, after us, from Kozarac.

19 Q. Was Mesud a friend of yours?

20 A. Well, not a friend. He's about ten kilometres away from me, but a

21 long time ago we worked together in the garrison, in a garrison office.

22 Q. Now, at some point, sir, did you find any documents belonging to

23 your, to your acquaintance Mesud Hopovac?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. When was it and what did you find?

Page 4042

1 A. Well, the morning after the massacre, when the massacre happened

2 in the number 3, the guard told us not to come out, but I was walking

3 towards the WC. Yet before that, somebody had come and brought a

4 wheelbarrow, something, which was full with documents, and there was those

5 papers and passports, and I came upon Mesud's. And then I went to the WC,

6 and then I went to number 3. And in that area, which was grassy, there

7 was blood, a lot of blood.

8 And I entered number 3. He was alive there, and he grabbed me and

9 I asked him, "Well, have you survived?" He said yes. And I gave him the

10 passport, and he said, "I don't need it. I was beaten because of the

11 passport when I arrived here." And there were traces of -- bullet traces

12 all over the walls. There was blood all over the walls. And before that,

13 I had been to number 3 before that, and as you walked to WC, it wasn't

14 closed -- it was closed. There was a door, but then they put there some

15 concrete elements, the ones that existed there in the brickyard, so that

16 one couldn't get to the WC.

17 Q. Sir, thank you very much. So you know that Mesud survived the

18 massacre in Room 3. You know that because you spoke to him; is that

19 right? Did you see --

20 A. Yes, he survived that, yes, hundred per cent.

21 Q. Do you know -- sir, were you at Keraterm when the camp closed?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. Did you see Mesud Hopovac the day the camp closed, and if so, did

24 you know what happened to him?

25 A. I saw him a day before. And that next day when the camp was

Page 4043

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4044

1 closed down, we were locked in, but all of a sudden two buses arrived.

2 And Sikirica called out those who had come from over there, and I

3 didn't see them. I couldn't see them. Those in number 3 who had

4 survived. And they boarded those two buses, and then he went on calling

5 out people from number 2.

6 Q. Who is he that went on calling out people from number 2? Who are

7 you talking about?

8 A. Sikirica.

9 Q. And could you see how it was that you were calling out people from

10 various rooms? Where was he? What was he doing?

11 A. He was standing in front of number 2. He had some papers under

12 his arm and held a paper like this, and he was calling out names. "Who is

13 there? Collect your things and onto the bus."

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Now, sir, and Your Honours, I'd invite you to turn

15 to paragraph 48.

16 Q. Sir, you have given a statement previous to coming to court today,

17 have you not?

18 A. I have.

19 Q. And prior to coming to court, you have had an opportunity to

20 review your statement, have you not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Yesterday, sir, did you recall a further detail about the incident

23 that you have told us today?

24 A. Yes. All that I told you about Sikirica and about calling out, I

25 remembered that yesterday, that I should tell you.

Page 4045

1 Q. What additional things do you remember about that incident of

2 Sikirica calling out names that you added from what you had told us

3 earlier in your statement? What you've told us so far was in your

4 statement, was it not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I'd like you now to tell the additional detail that you

7 volunteered yesterday during a conversation with the Prosecution.

8 A. Well, last time when I was here, I looked, I saw that it was he,

9 but the last one he called out, and that was a guy who was with me for a

10 month. And then I remember that he was the last one to leave number 2,

11 and after that he stopped calling out. That young man's name was Mehmed

12 Elkazovic. And had he kept his mouth shut, he perhaps would have

13 survived, because he did call out people who were not there. He called

14 out their names even though they were not there. But he picked up bag and

15 made it to the bus, and I never saw him again.

16 Q. Who was this young man that you say was being called out?

17 A. Mehmed Elkazovic. And he was the last one on the list. If you

18 ever manage to come by that list, you will see that he is the last one on

19 it.

20 Q. So his was the last name you heard being read out, is that what

21 you're saying?

22 A. Yes, the last one. And then those buses left. They beat them and

23 crammed them into the buses, and those two buses left in the direction of

24 Omarska. We stayed behind. And quite simply, at that time I wished I

25 could have left somewhere. But after awhile, many buses arrived. I don't

Page 4046

1 know, 15, 20, maybe more. They did not beat us, just onto the buses.

2 Some put their heads down. Well, in my bus we sat normally. Nobody was

3 beaten on that bus. And some left to Kozarac, and my and few other buses

4 took the old road towards Trnopolje.

5 Q. I just want to back you up a little bit, sir. The name of the

6 man, this Mehmed Elkazovic, did you know him before Keraterm?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Under what circumstances did you learn to know him?

9 A. Yes, as I said. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. When they

10 occupied Kozarac. He was from the village of Kamicani. A lot of people,

11 a lot of men, came to my village, and he was in my house for about a

12 month.

13 Q. All right. So he was in your house before you were arrested; is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then you later saw him in Keraterm?

17 A. Yes. We were running out of food. I had -- I was hosting about

18 40 refugees, so they moved to another house. And on one occasion when

19 this Serb army found about five of our leaders, then they, too, were

20 brought to Keraterm two or three days before I did, the young man

21 Elkazovic and the men who were with him.

22 Q. I see. So when you got to Keraterm he was already there?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Back to paragraphs 46 and 47 and that will be the

25 conclusion, Your Honours.

Page 4047

1 Q. Sir, did you know a Bego Sivac? And do not tell us who he is,

2 just tell us if you know him.

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And do you know how he got to Keraterm?

5 A. Also with me. And he was there with 350, 400 of us who arrived on

6 the 14th of June.

7 Q. Do you know from personal knowledge or by speaking to this

8 individual, know what happened to him at Trnopolje -- sorry, at Keraterm?

9 A. Well, when they were rounding us up at Sivci, they beat him up.

10 They stabbed him here. They cut -- made a cut of his throat, made a cut

11 in his ear. They also beat him. And for a while, he was in Room 3. I

12 think that Zigic was also involved in beating him.

13 Q. I don't know how to pronounce it. Dzevad Sivac. Did you know

14 him?

15 A. Yes, I did know him.

16 Q. And what can you tell us about what happened to him, if anything?

17 A. The same thing. He was beaten at Sivci and then at Keraterm

18 again, also by Zigic. Later on, we even laughed at it, because Zigic beat

19 him up too. Once he hit him with a pistol here and grazed him. The

20 bullet grazed him. And later on, it's -- they had to clean it up, and he

21 said that if he botched it, he would shoot him.

22 Q. Just so that I'm clear, sir, this Bego and Dzevad that we've been

23 talking about, they were in the same group that was being arrested at the

24 time of your arrest in Sivci; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, the same group.

Page 4053

1 A. No, he wasn't.

2 Q. And the reason that he was not arrested was that he looked

3 somewhat older than 60; is that right?

4 A. Probably, because of fatigue. But there were men of 85 in the

5 camp. There was a man with me who said that the Russian camp was very

6 nice. His name was Mahmut Dzihic.

7 Q. Witness X, I want to ask you now about your arrival at Keraterm,

8 please. It's right, isn't it, that when you arrived your identification

9 card was taken from you, but it was subsequently returned to you? Do you

10 accept that?

11 A. Not my personal identity card but my driver's license, and it was

12 returned to me, without the money, though.

13 Q. Were identity cards from most people taken and subsequently

14 returned?

15 A. Only we got them back, and I don't know why. First they took

16 everything. There was a big wheelbarrow filled with it. And then some

17 people could get it back, some couldn't. They threw it all in front of

18 us. And after -- those who came after us never got it back. They were

19 throwing it on the garbage.

20 For instance, I mentioned Mesud's passport. There were some camp

21 inmates who were cleaning up the perimeter, and we -- they brought this

22 stuff back from the garbage. And so we could find some of the documents,

23 some of them.

24 Q. Would you agree with this, that the conditions upon your arrival

25 at the camp were chaotic?

Page 4054

1 A. Yes, I agree.

2 Q. Turning now to the man you claim to be Dusko Sikirica, what age

3 was the person you described as Dusko Sikirica, the commander, what age in

4 1992?

5 A. I don't know. I would -- I need to figure out how old I was. So

6 I don't know what -- how old he was. I did not dare ask, and I even

7 avoided looking at them.

8 Q. So because you took steps not to look at people, in particular

9 Dusko Sikirica, you cannot say what his age was; is that it?

10 A. How should I know? Perhaps approximately. I don't even know

11 today how old he is. How could I?

12 Q. If you're not able to assist us about his age, I suggest to you,

13 Witness X, that you didn't see him terribly often, indeed hardly at all,

14 did you? Isn't that right?

15 A. He could be seen less than the others, you're right there, but I

16 saw him a number of times.

17 Q. I suggest to you if you're not able to say anything at all about

18 his age, the opportunities you had to see him were so limited that you

19 cannot, I suggest, make a proper identification of this man.

20 A. How could I not if I saw him like I see you today? He was -- he's

21 the same man. He was just bigger and had a moustache.

22 Q. What is your height, please, Witness X?

23 A. Hundred and seventy-one centimetres.

24 Q. It's right, isn't it, that the man that you saw was a short man,

25 maybe 170 centimetres tall? In other words, about the same height as

Page 4055

1 you.

2 A. Yes, maybe. I also consider myself relatively short. But he

3 looked taller or -- I don't know. That is how he looked. To me, those

4 who are over 180 centimetres tall are tall people.

5 Q. But the fact of the matter is what you have always said and what

6 you've said in evidence here is that the man you claim to be Dusko

7 Sikirica was a short man, 170 -- maybe 170 centimetres tall. In other

8 words, approximately your height, Witness X. That's right, isn't it?

9 A. Yes, but to me, that is not tall. I'm not tall.

10 Q. Don't worry about what description to put on it. The second thing

11 that you recall about him was that the man was very strongly built; is

12 that right?

13 A. I said that yesterday. Perhaps he looked strong to me because --

14 I don't know if there are any pictures anywhere. I could not walk I was

15 so weak. When I arrived in Zagreb, I couldn't even drink milk.

16 Q. Sir, when you say "very strongly built," do you mean

17 broad-shouldered, broad-chested?

18 A. Of course. Yes. He ate a lot.

19 Q. Stocky, strong?

20 A. Yes. At that time that is how he was, at least in my eyes.

21 Q. You see, what you told the Office of the Prosecutor in -- last

22 year, Witness X, was that the man you identify as Sikirica was a man of

23 average build. The two things cannot be the same, I suggest, a man very

24 strongly built and a man of average build. Do you accept that?

25 A. I may have said that. I said that that was my weak side. But now

Page 4056

1 that I see him, I don't think that I can miss it. Had I not seen him the

2 last time, I wouldn't have said about Elkazovic, that he was the last on

3 the list.

4 Q. You see, what I suggest, Witness X, is that you are mistaken in

5 your identification of the commander of the camp. The man sitting in this

6 court is a man of about 1 metre 84, 185, and you are simply mistaken, are

7 you not, about that identification?

8 A. That is what you think. I did not make a mistake. He changed a

9 lot. I would recognise the other two if I met them in the street. Him, I

10 would not have recognised otherwise.

11 Q. So the person you say is Sikirica, the commander of the camp, has

12 changed a lot since 1992?

13 A. Yes, he did change.

14 Q. It's right, isn't it, that the person you say was Sikirica was

15 hardly ever in the premises of the camp but spent most of the time out by

16 the weigh hut and the gate and the perimeter? Isn't that right?

17 A. Yes. And he walked around too. He passed from the weigh hut. He

18 would go up to the place where the inspectors were. But I did see him

19 less than the others. And sometimes we -- if we were talking, the guards

20 would say, "Shut up. Keep quiet." Sikirica is coming."

21 Q. And the reality is that you do not know how often he was in the

22 camp, do you?

23 A. That is an odd question. Who would have asked me that? We were

24 like animals. Animals lived better than the way we lived there.

25 Q. The reality, Witness X, and please answer the question, is that

Page 4057

1 you do not know, do you, how often the man you've identified as Sikirica

2 was in the camp? Do you accept that?

3 A. I accept that. I was not giving him orders. He came when he

4 wanted. But I did see him around.

5 Q. At no time, it's right, did you see him involved in the beating of

6 a prisoner of any kind, did you?

7 A. No, I did not see that.

8 Q. It's right also, is it not, that you formed the opinion that there

9 were fewer, if any, beatings when he was in the camp compared to when he

10 was absent?

11 A. That is not correct. You can wipe that out. There were such

12 cases. Only when he would come they would -- there was this Feha who was

13 a room leader, and the soldiers and he would say, "Sikirica's coming.

14 Keep quiet."

15 Q. You see, what you told the Office of the Prosecutor last year was

16 that you had the impression that there were fewer beatings when he was in

17 the camp than when he was absent. Do you remember telling them that?

18 A. Yes, there was less. There was less. But then he would go up

19 there. He would bring some lists. And when these so-called inspectors

20 would leave and he would come back, read out the lists, and some went to

21 Omarska. In all shifts, the beatings were less, but when the night

22 fell ...

23 Q. And as far as you were concerned, he was only in the camp during

24 the day, wasn't he?

25 A. I did see him during the day.

Page 4058

1 Q. Not at night?

2 A. He may have been there, but I did not see him at night.

3 Q. Does the name Zivko Knezevic mean anything to you, Witness X?

4 A. I only know of Kajin, Zigic, Duca, Kole. I did not know their

5 names, nor had I known them before. But if it's Zigic, him I know well.

6 Q. No, Zivko Knezevic, but if your answer is that you don't know him,

7 then we'll move on.

8 It's right, isn't it, that there was a change in the running of

9 the camp after the massacre in Room 3? Do you accept that?

10 A. We have no idea about this. It was -- you can't ask me. Nobody

11 from there -- people were starving. They couldn't walk any longer. What

12 kind of a question is that? You should ask them.

13 Q. Well, forgive me. You've told us quite a lot about how well

14 informed you were about who the personnel of the camp were earlier. Can

15 you just answer this: Are you or are you not aware of a change in the

16 arrangements for running the camp, in other words, that a new, new person

17 came to run the camp, after the 27th of July? Do you recall that?

18 A. I don't even remember that the massacre was on the 27th. All I

19 know is that Kole's shift was on. What you're asking me, I'm telling you

20 I was waiting for them either to kill me or give me a piece of bread.

21 Q. Does the name Marinko Sadzak mean anything to you, Witness X?

22 A. No, it doesn't. And the one that you mentioned before, Zoran

23 Zigic -- Knezevic, what did you say? It could be Duca, perhaps. I don't

24 know. Perhaps I know him as Duca.

25 Q. I'm not asking you about Duca, but do you know Duca Knezevic?

Page 4059

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4060

1 A. Yes. I met him in the camp.

2 Q. And he was someone who came in from outside and was not a guard on

3 the staff of the camp, was he?

4 A. He wasn't, no. He wasn't a guard.

5 Q. As far as the incident at Room 3 is concerned, Witness X, it's

6 right, isn't it, that that was perpetrated by soldiers in red berets who

7 were not on the staff of the camp? Do you accept that?

8 A. I accept that they came, but few people could see who fired. I

9 don't know who would look at the man firing at him. At dusk a truck

10 arrived, and they brought some green benches and beer and the generator,

11 and they had red berets.

12 Q. What you told the Office of the Prosecutor was, "They were not

13 guards from the camp." So you were, I suggest, able to observe -- please

14 wait until the question is finished, Witness X.

15 I suggest you were able to see who they were, and you were able to

16 assess that they were not guards who were on the staff of the camp. Do

17 you accept that?

18 A. I accept that they came, but as there was still shooting -- I saw

19 Banovic, who left on a motorbike, so that I'm saying that perhaps there

20 were also some of the guards among those who fired. And the next day, the

21 one in red beret also came and said, "Hey, guys, shall we play war

22 tonight?"

23 Q. When did you arrive in The Hague, Witness X, to give evidence on

24 this occasion?

25 A. Sunday.

Page 4062

1 MR. GREAVES:

2 Q. You were interrogated at some stage; is that right?

3 A. How do you mean?

4 Q. You were taken to one of the offices above the rooms and you were

5 interrogated. Isn't that right?

6 A. No, it's not right.

7 Q. Were you ever questioned at any stage?

8 A. Who do you mean?

9 Q. Were you ever questioned at any stage, Witness X?

10 A. About what? No, nobody asked me any questions. I was given a

11 room. "That's your room. Breakfast times are these, lunch hours are

12 these," and that was that.

13 Q. Sir, at no time were you taken from the room where you were lodged

14 and taken to another place and interrogated in any way at all; is that

15 what you're saying?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

17 Witness, don't answer. Don't answer until you're told.

18 Mr. Ryneveld.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't know whether my learned friend and the

20 witness are talking about the same incident. I believe my learned friend

21 is asking about Keraterm, and the witness is talking about his stay in The

22 Hague.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think that's right. Would you just clarify the

24 situation, Mr. Greaves, yes.

25 MR. GREAVES: I'll make sure we're singing from the same hymn

Page 4063

1 sheet, Your Honour.

2 Q. Witness X, I'm talking about Keraterm. Were you interrogated in

3 Keraterm?

4 A. Well, why didn't you say so? First you talked about Keraterm and

5 then you moved over here.

6 I was interrogated in Keraterm. Every one of us went through

7 that.

8 Q. And that was by a man called Modic, was it not?

9 A. That's right. I knew him before the war.

10 Q. And it's right, is it not, that you were not beaten during that

11 interrogation?

12 A. I was not.

13 Q. And the questions you were asked, were they not, were about, for

14 example, your politics, your political affiliations, whether you'd been

15 involved in military activities, what you knew about military activities

16 and so forth?

17 A. Yes, and so on. Many other questions.

18 Q. As far as the -- some individual incidents are concerned, I just

19 want you to help, if you can, please. There was an incident involving

20 Ismet Garibovic. Do you recall that?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Are you able to give us a date when you believe that that took

23 place?

24 A. Date. Don't ask me about any date. From the moment I arrived in

25 the camp, I didn't have a watch or -- no. Don't ask me those questions.

Page 4064

1 I can tell you roughly if it was a short time after I arrived or after --

2 or after a long time since my arrival, but --

3 Q. And the motive, was it not, for those who were beating him was to

4 demand, extort money from him?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And the same with Vasif Mujkanovic; is that right?

7 A. Yes, the same.

8 Q. And, effectively, the same for Mujo Sivac? The people who were

9 ill-treating him were trying to get money out of him?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would that be the same with Sulejman Sivac?

12 A. No. No. Banovic simply got him and provoked him. No. Sulejman

13 didn't have anything to do with money.

14 Q. Fikret Abdic. Was that because he just happened to have the same

15 name as a well-known politician in Bosnia?

16 A. Yes, I think so. Before that, our names had not been taken down.

17 We were -- were taken down, and then they would call out somebody and

18 somebody refuses to respond, that is, dares not, because he is afraid that

19 he'd be beating. And slightly before Fikret Abdic was called out, they

20 took our names down. And they got him out and they said, "Ha. Look,

21 Fikret Abdic is here." That was a younger guy. And they simply -- he was

22 finished. He died on our hands as they brought him back into the room. I

23 didn't know him before.

24 Q. Witness X, from what you've told us, you were in a pretty poor

25 condition by the time you left the camp; is that right?

Page 4065

1 A. With this I do agree.

2 Q. And had you got to the state where it was difficult to concentrate

3 on what was taking place around you?

4 A. It was difficult. It was difficult for me to stand up, that is,

5 one is standing up and others are squatting. Then everybody had to stand

6 up because, if anything, if you moved, then you'd fall down. But I was

7 conscious. I was still conscious. There were lots of people who would

8 stand up and then just collapse and get bruised.

9 Q. Witness X, we've heard quite a lot of evidence from other

10 witnesses in this case about the issue of change of command after the

11 Room 3 massacre. You obviously don't know anything about it. May that be

12 because you were in such a state at that time that you were not fully

13 aware of what was going on around you?

14 A. I wasn't interested to know who is the commander if I'm locked

15 up. Perhaps he was better. Perhaps he wrote something down. When we

16 arrived in the camp first, we did not -- we were not given any food. I

17 didn't eat for five days. Then I suffered from dysentery, from dysentery,

18 and then later on, and I didn't care to know who the commander was.

19 Q. You see, other witnesses have suggested, have said that the person

20 reading out the list when the camp was closed was not Sikirica but

21 somebody else. Would you accept that you may well be mistaken when you

22 say that it was Sikirica?

23 A. No, I wouldn't, because it was Sikirica. I was as far as you are

24 from me now. There was, I told you, a gap in the door, so that even when

25 the door was closed, I could see through it very many people. People were

Page 4066

1 choking. People were suffocating because of the heat. But I -- so I

2 could -- I was next to this gap in the door and I could see, but at the

3 time he was calling out, the door was open so that I could see. Perhaps

4 there were some people in the far end of the room who could not see.

5 Q. You see, I suggest that you were in such a condition by the time

6 you left Keraterm that you were in no position to make such an

7 identification, Witness X, were you?

8 A. No. That is not so. I was aware of what went on, except that

9 that I was very weak. I told you. When I would stand up or walk, I just

10 couldn't for about two months. And after all the lying down on the

11 concrete, it was as if I had knives in my body, in my spine, but I could

12 see what went on.

13 Q. Have you ever seen the man you identified or claimed to be Dusko

14 Sikirica? Did you ever see that person driving a car?

15 A. Well, he couldn't have been coming on foot. Everybody had a car.

16 Because of my relative, he knows the sound of his engine. Everybody came

17 in a car. He didn't drive his car into the compound. Perhaps he parked

18 it over there, I don't know, but, yes, they drove cars, Mercedes.

19 Q. Did you see the man you claimed to be Sikirica ever driving a car

20 of any kind?

21 A. I didn't. He didn't drive around the compound. Perhaps he got

22 there by car. How can I know?

23 Q. Do you know the name Bajazit Jakupovic?

24 A. I know the name. I think so, if that's the one I mean. There

25 were two.

Page 4067

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4068

1 Q. Can I refresh your memory? He was a military pilot who was

2 detained at Keraterm. Do you recall that?

3 A. Yes, I do. But I -- another one came to my mind. The other

4 Bajazit was a very -- he talked. When a soldier hit him, he shouted, and

5 then we were all forced to come out and sing military songs. And this

6 Bajazit, he was in number 2 with me.

7 Q. He was not -- the one you're thinking of is not Jakupovic, is that

8 what you're saying?

9 A. No. This one was called Bajazit, and I'll -- and his surname will

10 come to me. But yes, Jakupovic, he was a pilot.

11 Q. Well, let's talk about the man Jakupovic. Is it within your

12 knowledge that that man, Jakupovic, the pilot, was sent to Omarska?

13 A. He was in number 2 with us, and the man simply flipped out. I

14 mean, he breathed heavily. And, "Keep him quiet," the guards would say.

15 Then people would cover his mouth with their hands, and they would keep

16 saying, "Keep him quiet." And then one day he left, I don't know where.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. GREAVES: No further questions.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

20 Mr. Rodic?

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we go into private

22 session, please, for a moment.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

24 [Private session]

25 [redacted] :

Page 4080

1 A. It was large, but it was too small for all of us. We were quite a

2 few.

3 Q. You mentioned a number of about 570 men.

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. What period does that number refer to?

6 A. Before the massacre, when they brought people from Room 3. And

7 people were complaining. They said, "There's no more room." And they

8 said, "There's room. Go in."

9 Q. And how many people arrived from Room 3 to you at that time?

10 A. Some went to Room 1, between 100 and 150. I don't know. I know

11 that a lot of them came in. It was -- we were one on top of another.

12 Q. Who was the room leader from among the detainees?

13 A. Feha. He was heavy built.

14 Q. And in Room 1?

15 A. I don't know. Some man called Zazine [phoen], or something like

16 that.

17 Q. Do you know [redacted]?

18 A. I don't know. I know Emsud, the one who was killed in Keraterm,

19 but it's a large family. There's a lot of them. And they were not close

20 to me. I probably know him by sight but not well.

21 Q. Can you tell us the names of the men who stayed with you in

22 Room 2, those who you knew or those who you got to know there?

23 A. There's a lot of a them.

24 Q. Can you mention the men whom you know?

25 A. Dzevad Sivac, Fahrudin Bego, Vasif Bego, Muhidin Saric. He was a

Page 4081

1 teacher. Then Namik Mahic. There's a lot of them. If you want me to, I

2 can put together a list.

3 Q. No, no, no. Just if you can mention --

4 A. There was Feha and his four brothers. Then there were the

5 Bahonjics. There were a lot of them. Emsud, Rifet.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, yes.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't know whether this is a memory test or

8 whether there is a function to the listing of these names, but I just

9 wonder if my friend might indicate the purpose of getting the witness to

10 recite as many names as he can remember.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, is this credibility or what is the

12 purpose of this exercise?

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I assume if this was --

14 if this would have been a memory test maybe this was tested by my learned

15 friend, but I need to check the credibility of this witness, [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you can move through this fairly quickly.

19 Yes.

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 A. Shall I name some more?

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Do you know Jusuf Arifagic?

24 A. I do. He was in number 2.

25 Q. I'm referring you to 15 June, the day after your arrival. Did any

Page 4082

1 of the detainees from your room go to the hospital?

2 A. Yes. This man Arifagic went. He had a gash in his head. It was

3 him and there was a Hodza with him. And he had his head bandaged. I

4 don't know if they went to the hospital or maybe they were coming back

5 from the hospital.

6 Q. Did Emsud Bahonjic also go to the hospital at that time?

7 A. No. He never made it to the hospital. I personally saw him dying

8 on the pallet.

9 Q. Can you tell me about this going to the hospital? Was Kajin

10 involved in organising this visit to the hospital?

11 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

12 Q. Do you recall that day? That was your first day.

13 A. I don't know which day, but --

14 Q. I'm referring to 15 June, the day after your arrival. The first

15 day at Keraterm for you. You met all these people?

16 A. I don't remember what date it was. I know that Arifagic came with

17 his head injured, and there were others who were with him.

18 Q. On that day when these men went to the hospital and came back, did

19 you see Kajin on that day?

20 A. We were under stress. It wasn't easy to arrive there. You

21 were -- you didn't know where you were and what was going on. It's an odd

22 question. And immediately people were being beaten. And so to ask myself

23 who Kajin was, where he was ...

24 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you in the light of your experiences, what you

25 went through. I understand that you went through a lot of stress while

Page 4083

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4084

1 you were there, and you yourself said that you were afraid for your life

2 while you were there; is that correct?

3 A. I believe that that is a normal thing.

4 Q. I agree with you.

5 I'm going to put to you some statements. At one point in

6 answering a question by the Prosecutor, you said, "The people were taken

7 out and beaten non-stop." Is that correct? If you can just respond

8 briefly.

9 A. One could say yes. Not so much during the day but during the

10 night.

11 Q. You said, "I heard Kajin calling out men. Sometimes I didn't

12 look. Sometimes the door was closed." Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You also said, "Kajin could be seen even when it wasn't his

15 shift."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. "Also with Banovic. He came whenever he wanted." Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. "I simply cannot say whose shift it was."

21 A. That is correct. I simply could not.

22 Q. You also said -- sorry. I have to slow down for the transcript.

23 You also said, "Zigic would come in and out as he pleased. He

24 could always come in, but I believe that it was in Kajin's shift." Is

25 that correct?

Page 4085

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In the statement you gave to the investigators last year, you

3 said, "I remember that Kajin's shift was on duty occasionally when Zigic

4 would come to the camp." Zigic asked for ten men to go to the toilet. I

5 am certain that in one of those occasions, this happened during Kajin's

6 shift. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Also when asked by the Prosecutor, you said, "I heard that shift

9 the commanders - I don't know, but this is what people said, I wasn't so

10 interested - it was the shifts belonged to Kole, Kajin, and Fustar"; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. During your stay, did you know the organisation of shifts in

14 Keraterm?

15 A. I said before that I did not.

16 Q. Did you know when you arrived -- first arrived that there were

17 only two shifts?

18 A. No, I don't know that, either. I know that they would change

19 sometime in the morning. Perhaps they also changed in the evening, but I

20 wasn't interested in that. I was always in the closed room, and I was

21 always in fear.

22 Q. Do you perhaps know when these three shifts were instituted?

23 A. I don't know that.

24 Q. Do you know how long a single shift lasted?

25 A. I don't, but I think that they changed in the morning.

Page 4086

1 Q. And then the next day the second -- the next shift would arrive?

2 A. I don't know whether they changed in the evening, too, but in the

3 evening -- in the morning they would change, so perhaps they changed in

4 the morning.

5 Q. Do you know how many guards were in each shift, approximately?

6 A. I don't know that. I don't know that exactly. There were about

7 ten. Some would even come in civilian clothes, and I don't know what,

8 what they were. They were bringing men out and beating them, but I don't

9 know who they were. Nobody dared ask. Some were at the machine-gun

10 place, and they never budged from there, near the weigh hut.

11 Q. And do you know -- did you know any of the guards in addition to

12 the Banovics and Zigic whom you mentioned most frequently?

13 A. I don't know what Kondic was, this Kondic was. He was all right.

14 He did not hit anyone. In a blue police uniform.

15 I think Grujic or something was there. He had a rifle butt

16 wrapped, and when people were going out to eat, he would beat them.

17 Q. This Grujin whom you mentioned was that, Goran Grujic?

18 A. I don't know that. I only knew their nicknames. I knew that he

19 was fair and he would -- according to me, he was the best one, but maybe

20 he did beat someone.

21 Q. Do you know anybody else?

22 A. I know somebody from Lamovita, and he once opened up a pack of

23 cigarettes and threw them, tossed them out.

24 Q. In the statement given last year when you spoke about the events,

25 incidents, which involved Banovic, you said that he was in Fustar's shift?

Page 4087

1 A. I did say that, but I don't know what shift he was in. I'm not

2 sure. He could have been in Fustar's because, because he came day and

3 night, all the time.

4 Q. When describing a number of episodes that the Prosecutor skipped

5 today, you mentioned Cupo Banovic in a number of them. You say that it

6 was Fustar's shift.

7 A. I don't know. Fustar or Fuskar, I don't know. I know that shift

8 also existed and Banovic was present.

9 Q. In light of everything you've said so far, that anybody would --

10 could come whenever they wished to and that you were not very interested

11 in shifts, do you allow for possibility that you perhaps were not certain

12 whether it was always Kajin's shift when you mentioned certain incidents?

13 A. I don't know, but he, he would be there sometimes even when it

14 wasn't his shift. I don't know when his shifts were. Nobody gave me the

15 roster to look at it.

16 Q. When he would come to Keraterm and when, according to you, it

17 wasn't his shift, would such incidents also occur?

18 A. Yes, it did, but in his shift -- but when he would lock us up and

19 leave and others would come to beat us up, it was definitely his shift.

20 Q. Now tell me this: Did others also lock you in?

21 A. Yes, they did.

22 Q. And according to you, why would they lock you up?

23 A. I think you should ask them.

24 Q. Well, perhaps you also thought about it.

25 A. I still don't know to date why. Because I'm a Muslim, perhaps?

Page 4088

1 Q. Are you sure, then, that it was Kajin's shift when you were locked

2 up?

3 A. 100 per cent because he would lock us up personally, or he

4 would -- and he would -- and take away the key or leave it at the weigh

5 bridge.

6 Q. But a moment ago when I asked you, you said that, "Others would

7 lock us up, too."

8 A. Yes, but on that occasion, Kajin did it. Sometimes Kole did it.

9 And then he would turn keys -- the keys over to those who would beat us

10 up, and then he would come over and he said, "Give us the key." So they

11 would all laugh.

12 Q. What do you mean, they would all laugh?

13 A. You know what it means when they all laughed. They would all

14 laugh.

15 Q. What men were those who were with him laughing?

16 A. That, I don't know.

17 Q. Did it ever happen that Banovic locked you up?

18 A. I don't remember. It is possible.

19 Q. When asked by the Prosecutor, you said -- you spoke about the

20 event relating to -- sorry, I apologise, the incident relating to Ismet

21 Garibovic when he was taken out and beaten.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What shift was that?

24 A. He was taken out on several shifts. They kept taking him out

25 until they got the money. Four or five nights in a row.

Page 4089

1 Q. In a statement given in August last year you said, regarding Ismet

2 Garibovic, "I think that all these beatings took place in Fustar's shift

3 because Cupo took part in them."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So what is correct, what you said today or what you said in the

6 statement which you had read back and which you signed as your own?

7 A. Yes, I still do. I still believe that Cupo was on Fustar's

8 shift. I continue to believe that. But Ismet was beaten several times

9 and was killed on Kajin's shift.

10 Q. You just added that now, because when asked by the Prosecutor, you

11 accurately -- you weren't accurate about Kajin's shift. Are you sure what

12 shift it was?

13 A. I just said that. Four or five nights in a row, until they

14 received the little money that he had. And Kajin's shift was one of

15 those.

16 Q. How do you know that it was Kajin's shift?

17 A. I know because he had to come to his shift, and I know that I saw

18 him in the course of those days.

19 Q. You are very general and very vague, and here in your statement

20 you were very precise and said that the beating of Ismet -- beatings of

21 Ismet Garibovic, in plural, happened on Fustar's shift, and you added that

22 because Cupo participated in that. "I saw Cupo Banovic call him out at

23 night on different occasions, and I know that he was one of those who beat

24 him."

25 A. Yes, I did say that, but I say now that it happened five or six

Page 4090

1 times and that Kajin's shift was also there.

2 Q. Why are you insisting on Kajin's shift?

3 A. Because it happened on five or six occasions. And in those five

4 or six days and nights, that is, Kajin's shift was also on duty.

5 Q. But in this statement, and I'm telling you again, you're not

6 referring to one beating, you are mentioning several beatings of

7 Garibovic, and all those beatings, you say that most of them occurred

8 during Fustar's shift?

9 A. I don't know. I'm saying that Cupo could come during anyone's

10 shift. He could come during Kajin's shift and also call people out.

11 Q. Why did you then say it here precisely that it was Fustar's

12 shift?

13 A. Well, perhaps it referred to one or two times when it began, but I

14 also said that Banovic could come any time.

15 Q. Witness X, I put it to you that you do not know whose shift was

16 on, that you must have heard about this, I should say, from the

17 prisoners.

18 A. That is what you say. You are not right absolutely. I'm saying a

19 man was taken out five or six times. Banovic and Zigic could come as they

20 pleased. They could enter whenever they pleased. It did not matter whose

21 shift it was on. Banovic called him out on Kajin's shift. Because I gave

22 this Ismet my leather vest.

23 Q. Yes. We have heard about this.

24 A. Well, then ...

25 Q. When you mentioned the incident related to the horse and the cab

Page 4091

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4092

1 driver --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell us, when did that happened in relation to your

4 arrival in Keraterm?

5 A. Well, a little later. Not right at the beginning.

6 Q. How later?

7 A. Well, I'm telling you I didn't have a calendar, nor did I have a

8 watch. Don't ask me that. It could have been a week or ten days,

9 whatever.

10 Q. Do you also tell others you can make a pick when you talk to

11 others too?

12 A. Well, had you asked me about something that happened now, but

13 you're asking me about something that happened a long time ago. To begin

14 with, I didn't have a watch. Often I didn't really care about the date,

15 and I don't think, had you been in my place, that you would be interested

16 in the date.

17 Q. Yes. I understand what you are saying, and I agree you must have

18 forgotten a lot of things.

19 A. If you're asking me about the massacre, I will tell you it was

20 later in my detention. About this other thing, it was a little --

21 sometime after my arrival. I do not know exactly.

22 Q. On that occasion when that happened, when a prisoner played a

23 horse and another one a cab driver, if I understood you well --

24 A. Yes, you did.

25 Q. -- who was present there?

Page 4093

1 A. There was Kajin and there were other troops.

2 Q. You don't even have to mention Kajin because you mention him

3 throughout. So want I want to know is who else was present. So perhaps

4 we can identify somebody else.

5 A. Well, these acting happened -- these games happened every day.

6 Q. Every day?

7 A. Yes. They came up with something every day.

8 Q. And tell me, this play of the horse and the horse driver, did it

9 happen in front of Room 2, in Room 2? Where exactly?

10 A. In the room we were one on top of the other, so it happened

11 outside, in front of the room, on the concrete there.

12 Q. It went on in front of Room 2?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At what time of the day, roughly?

15 A. Well, when they felt like it. That is when it happened.

16 Q. Can you remember a particular situation? Was it at night-time

17 or --

18 A. No, no, no. The it happened in daylight. The case I'm referring

19 to happened in daytime.

20 Q. Did all those games take place in daytime?

21 A. Yes, the games took place in daytime.

22 Q. And when that went on, did the prisoners from Rooms 1, 2, 3, or 4,

23 were they outside sometimes during those incidents?

24 A. Yes, at times.

25 Q. And those same prisoners, could they see that?

Page 4094

1 A. Yes. Some remembered, some saw. I mean all sorts of things

2 happened.

3 Q. Where could many prisoners see that?

4 A. Well, if -- I mean it was silly to me and it was really pitiful to

5 me and so I remember those details, but, yes, people could.

6 Q. That is, you are saying that quite a number of prisoners could see

7 that?

8 A. Yes, they could.

9 Q. Do you know now, do you perhaps recall the name of a fellow inmate

10 from your room or from some other room who watched it all together with

11 you?

12 A. I don't remember. I do not know if that particular person watched

13 it at the same time because at times they would let us out and we'd be out

14 for a little while. That was a pleasure to just be out.

15 Q. But did you see any of the prisoners watch at all, whose name you

16 know?

17 A. I saw them. Many people watched it, but I can't give you the

18 names, I mean of those who watched and who didn't.

19 Q. But could we then agree that quite a number or, shall we say, the

20 majority of prisoners in Room 2 could see that?

21 A. Yes. Yes, you can say that.

22 Q. And do you see that as an incident which should not be forgotten

23 because it left an unpleasant impression on everybody who was there?

24 A. Well, I'm telling you it was a game for them. I saw this as

25 humiliation, as degradation. I mean that's -- they didn't want to kill

Page 4095

1 him, but if this one does not catch up with him, then the soldier had to

2 whip him, to lash him. And in the evening --

3 Q. But can we agree then that it was an event which left its mark?

4 A. Well, there was something different every day.

5 Q. No, no, no. I'm referring to this particular --

6 A. Well, perhaps this one didn't leave such an impression because

7 nobody was killed, but it was ill-treatment, and I can give you more

8 examples if you -- if need be.

9 Q. No, no, no. It's not necessary. I'm asking you about this.

10 A. Well, had there been somebody else, he could have told you about

11 something else, but I'm telling you about this.

12 Q. Can you perhaps give us the name of a guard who may have

13 participated in this or if you had seen somebody, could you describe

14 someone to us?

15 A. Kajin was there when they played this game. Kajin was there.

16 Q. Yes. I'm quite clear about Kajin, because as I told you, you keep

17 placing Kajin somewhere whenever something happened as if he was there

18 non-stop. I'm asking you if there was somebody else, another guard,

19 another man of the Keraterm security who you could recognise and identify

20 by name or by nickname or describe to us.

21 A. There was this Cupo and there was this one whose name I don't

22 know, but they allegedly said that his mother was a Muslim, the one who

23 distributed food - I don't know if that's correct - who had a black band

24 wrapped around his rifle butt. He was one of those who took people out.

25 Q. So you cannot tell us anything about other people from the -- from

Page 4096

1 the guard security who participated in that?

2 A. Well, there are many of them. You are really asking me funny

3 questions. There were all those -- there were all those guards.

4 Q. How many people were there?

5 A. Well, I told you. The -- as a rule, there were about ten of them,

6 but at times some new people would pour in. Sometimes more, sometimes

7 less. There would be civilians always looking for somebody.

8 Q. But did people from outside Keraterm would come to watch that?

9 A. To watch what?

10 Q. That incident when that went on.

11 A. Well, it wasn't a production, a performance.

12 Q. You said that this incident happened with a rider and a driver on

13 various occasions; is that correct?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. Did Kajin participate always?

16 A. No, not necessarily.

17 Q. You are vague again.

18 A. Well, not always, but he was there once, I'm certain about that.

19 If you -- he was there on different occasions but not every time.

20 Q. Your answers seem to sound as if you are guessing at something.

21 A. No, I'm not making any guesses. You want me to give you the exact

22 time.

23 Q. No, I'm not asking you the exact time. I'm asking you

24 specifically, how many times did that happen?

25 A. I cannot tell you that. Many times, if that answer means

Page 4097

1 something to you.

2 Q. Roughly?

3 A. Well, what is "roughly" to you? They were things that they

4 buggered us off every day in one way or the other.

5 Q. I did not ask you about all the incidents. We are trying to focus

6 only on this type of incident, when one detainee is acting a horse,

7 another one a cab driver. I'm asking you if it happened several times,

8 and you said yes.

9 A. Yes, I did say yes.

10 Q. I'm asking you only about this type of incident. How many times,

11 roughly, did that happen?

12 A. I personally saw it two or three times.

13 Q. Well, there you are --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, you have been on this particular point

15 for some time.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that this is a

17 very important subject.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you plan to spend much longer on that

19 particular point?

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Not perhaps on this subject. Perhaps

21 one or two questions more.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please move on quickly. Yes.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation].

24 Q. So, you said that you saw it two or three times.

25 A. Yes.

Page 4098

1 Q. And on those two or three occasions, did you see Kajin there?

2 A. I didn't say every time, I said "almost."

3 Q. How many times was Kajin there?

4 A. The first time when it happened, yes, Kajin was there. I'm sure

5 of that.

6 Q. And in relation to Room 2, where was he when that went on?

7 A. Who was, who was where when it happened?

8 Q. Kajin.

9 A. Well, we were outside, but it all happened in front, on the

10 concrete in front of dormitory 2.

11 Q. And very briefly, that situation when you saw him, other prisoners

12 could see that, too, prisoners in Room 2?

13 A. Those who wanted to see it could see it.

14 Q. Very well, thank you. Again during the direct examination, you

15 said, "I saw Kajin call out people at night, ill-treat them. He offered

16 them to take something. He simply provoked them. He was good at

17 smuggling, and then he moved those -- forced people to take something, and

18 then they requested that they turn it back."

19 A. Yes, that's what I said, correct.

20 Q. How many times did you see Kajin call out people by night?

21 A. A number of times.

22 Q. What does it mean, a number of times?

23 A. Well, once I saw him call out directly, but this sale happened on

24 several occasions.

25 Q. And when that sale happened, could you be more specific? What is

Page 4099

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4100

1 it that was sold?

2 A. Well, those people who were in number 1, they received parcels

3 with food or something, and the guards would sometimes give it to them or

4 would throw it away or would, or would sell it. And they would come to

5 Room 2 and say to the inmates, "You have to sell it; that is, somebody has

6 to buy it. Money has to be found or else," he says, "I'm taking out the

7 first ten, so it has to be sold. Once it is sold, as soon as you've

8 voted," he says, "give it back to me," and he goes to sell it again.

9 Q. My question is, did Kajin enter the room and offer it for sale and

10 force people to buy it?

11 A. No. He gives it to somebody else and says, "This needs to be

12 sold." He did not come into the room.

13 Q. Then how do you know that he gave it to somebody else and said

14 that he had to sell it?

15 A. Because I saw him. Because we were that close.

16 Q. I'm asking you, then, to describe that situation that you saw.

17 Will you describe it in detail?

18 A. He'd bring something.

19 Q. What?

20 A. Food or cigarettes, those were the chief things. Those were the

21 chief things for which there was a market or something, not clothes. And

22 then he'd order and say that that had to be sold. And, and the inmates

23 also sold it at times, those who were in the room with us.

24 Q. And who was it that Kajin ordered that he had to sell something?

25 A. I don't know who it was. There was one Aco there, a Muslim, he

Page 4101

1 was -- and Hasim, they did the same thing. They were the ones who did it

2 mostly.

3 Q. And this Aco, was he from your room?

4 A. Yes, he was.

5 Q. Do you know his last name?

6 A. No, I don't. Everybody called him Aco. And there was one Hasin,

7 Pelikan or something. They were in cahoots with them, and they would say,

8 "You have got to buy this."

9 Q. And would you allow it that they did it on their own, that they

10 were the ones who said that they were doing it in somebody's name?

11 A. No. A soldier would come and say, "You have to sell this for me,"

12 or Kajin would say, "You have to sell this for me."

13 Q. You said that on such an occasion, you saw Kajin in person.

14 A. I did.

15 Q. I'm asking you, to whom did he issue that order and say that he

16 had to sell it?

17 A. Kajin, I think, gave it to somebody in the room. Not Aco, that

18 one, but to somebody in the room.

19 Q. And where were you in relation to Kajin when that happened?

20 A. I was like this, as far as this here. There was only a door

21 between us, and there was this gap, and I could see it all.

22 Q. So you watched it through a hole?

23 A. Yes. And I could see him also like this.

24 Q. Is that that small hole that you described to us during your

25 examination-in-chief yesterday, that you could peep when -- not -- through

Page 4102

1 a door?

2 A. Yes, it was next to the door. There was this -- and that is how I

3 could get some air, more than the others.

4 Q. How high from the ground was it?

5 A. It went all along the door. It was a metal door and with those

6 two which kept it standing.

7 Q. And as you watched through that hole, was he fully in your field

8 of vision, Kajin?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that person to whom he gave something, food or cigarettes, was

11 he also in your field of vision?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And where was he?

14 A. He was behind the door. I don't know who it was. I don't

15 remember who it was. I don't remember.

16 Q. Was it a person from your room?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you describe him to us, what he looked like?

19 A. It happened day in and day out. I mean, if he told me, "You have

20 to sell this for me," and then I'd have to do it. And I do not remember

21 who it was. But yet he ordered me, I'd have to do it. "Give me the

22 watch," then you have to give him the watch.

23 Guards, they sometimes even cried and they would say, "Yes,

24 please, take it. If you don't give it to me, he'll kill me." So you had

25 to do it. So if you were told to sell something, then you had to do it.

Page 4103

1 Q. So you heard it all, but you cannot tell us anything in greater

2 detail?

3 A. I didn't have a camera with me. I'm telling you that that is how

4 it was. I saw Kajin. Isn't that enough? I saw Kajin. He gave it to

5 somebody to sell it.

6 Q. And then this person, did that person then enter your room and

7 offer it for sale?

8 A. Yes, but he was already in the room. Perhaps he is no longer

9 alive. I don't know who that was or what, but he was in the room. He was

10 sitting down. "Sell it within five minutes." And then, "Well, come on,

11 men, buy it. The man is crying." He has to sell it. He must do it.

12 Q. And that man to whom Kajin gave something to sell something, that

13 man was sitting in the room?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And Kajin is outside the room?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was there a door to the room?

18 A. There was a door and the bars. The door was open by day. I was

19 behind the door next to that hole. There were bars, and then in those

20 bars there was a small door.

21 Q. And when the door is open, does it open inside, to the inside?

22 A. One door opens to the wall. As it opens, it goes to the door; the

23 other one in my direction.

24 Q. Were there other people present there?

25 A. There were. We were one on top of the other. Come on.

Page 4104

1 Q. And did you then see Kajin come to collect the proceeds?

2 A. Well, he had to come.

3 Q. But you did not see him?

4 A. I didn't. I saw him when he gave it.

5 Q. Do you remember, what was it that he gave? What was it?

6 A. Well, it was, by and large, food.

7 Q. No, no, no. I'm asking you specifically about Kajin that one time

8 when you saw him.

9 A. No, I don't remember. I don't.

10 Q. And did any of the guards bring things to be sold?

11 A. Yes, yes, they, too.

12 Q. Directly or, again, through some inmates?

13 A. Well, at times directly, at times through detainees. I have

14 already mentioned that Aco and that Pelikan, they are the ones who did it

15 most. Perhaps they did some smuggling for their own account. Perhaps

16 they did something at the checkpoint.

17 Q. But could you give us the name of one guard at least? Could it --

18 A. How can you? They all did it. I mean, it all went on when all

19 the guards would be there.

20 Q. [No translation]

21 A. Yes. Banovic was hundred per cent involved. I know that other

22 one that I described. Most of them were there.

23 Q. Were they present when that happened or did they also do that,

24 that is, give things for sale?

25 A. At times guards also gave them. At times it was something that

Page 4105

1 one could buy. At times it was really worth it. I mean some food. At

2 times it was something that nobody had. They want -- they asked 200 marks

3 for a box -- a package of cigarettes, and nobody has that money.

4 Q. Tell me, you said -- I apologise. You also mentioned that at

5 times they would put a dead person in a wheelbarrow and then force a

6 prisoner to push that wheelbarrow and march.

7 A. Yes, I did mention that.

8 Q. Was it a frequent occurrence?

9 A. That was in the beginning. It happened once with that Emsud

10 Bahonjic. There was one such occurrence. Well, perhaps more, but I did

11 not see that. I saw it only once.

12 Q. And do you know who was it who pushed that wheelbarrow and had --

13 and moved with marching step?

14 A. Well, to take him to the garbage dump and then bring it back and

15 then go again. And when there would be a number of bodies, then a yellow

16 truck would come and take them away somewhere. That's how it was.

17 Q. When did that happen?

18 A. That was in the beginning, what I'm telling you about. That was

19 in the beginning, perhaps a few days -- when Emsud was killed.

20 Q. And whom of the guards did you see on that particular occasion?

21 A. I do not remember. That was in the early days.

22 Q. At that time you didn't know either the guards or the commanders

23 in the beginning. You didn't.

24 A. Well, how could I?

25 Q. You also mentioned during the examination-in-chief -- your

Page 4106

1 sentence was as follows: "In the beginning, there was a truck. I could

2 see Kajin, men called out, beaten to the right of the wall. Could I hear

3 it, but I was not there when people were called out. I could not see it,

4 but I could hear it."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that true what you said?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Can you tell us what was it about?

9 A. Well, there in front of the number 2 there was a yellow truck

10 there in the beginning, and I was saying he popped some iron. And they

11 would call out people, hands to the wall, and I couldn't see it but I

12 could hear moans and cries of pain.

13 Q. And those men who were called out, were they then taken behind the

14 truck so you couldn't see them or --

15 A. I couldn't see them because I was locked in and they were outside,

16 but they were right next to the wall so one could hear their cries of

17 pain.

18 Q. So you could not see anything that went on outside on that

19 occasion but you could hear their cries of pain?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Why did you say, "Yes, I saw that Kajin was present when that

22 happened"?

23 A. Well, I could see that before they were taken out. I could see it

24 before they were taken out. And afterwards, they moved from that door to

25 that truck, and they were made to put their hands against the truck and to

Page 4107

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4108

1 put their feet apart, and they beat them.

2 Q. Was the door opened every time that incident happened? Did you

3 open the door every time that incident happened?

4 A. No, I didn't.

5 Q. Well, who did?

6 A. Well, they would open the bars. At times the door, it was blue

7 like this, and at times the door would stay open all night long, but there

8 were those bars. Sometimes they would order to lock the doors and then

9 your -- your eyeballs would fall out from the heat, you couldn't breathe.

10 That is how close the air was.

11 Q. So you didn't -- you say you didn't see people being taken away

12 and only heard the screams but you saw Kajin?

13 A. Yes, I saw them because they walked past me. I didn't see them

14 beaten because I couldn't see through the wall.

15 Q. And when you spoke about it, what did you say? "I wasn't there

16 when people were called out"?

17 A. No. That's certainly a mistake because that's not logical for me

18 to have said that. I don't know where it happen. How could I have heard

19 it if I wasn't there?

20 Q. On several occasions, you said that you saw Kajin calling out

21 people.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did other guards or other commanders also call men out?

24 A. Yes, they did. Not commanders. Others did too; that is, other

25 guards did.

Page 4109

1 Q. Were these calling out done for questionings of men?

2 A. Yes. You also waited to be interrogated. Then it was either

3 Omarska or back.

4 Q. Were people also called out to do some work in the perimeter?

5 A. Only two of them, Hasim Sivac and Esad Turkanovic. They were

6 cleaning the toilet that just could not be cleaned. Those two did do some

7 work.

8 Q. And when you say that he was calling men out, what did you mean by

9 that?

10 A. I don't know what you mean by that. If you mean to call out to go

11 to upstairs to be interrogated, well, some of them were beaten up there

12 too. And then Sikirica would bring a list and it would either go to

13 Omarska or be left there, but in the evening, it was to be beaten.

14 Q. So who was it that would call out names for beatings?

15 A. I don't know. They -- I said about Kajin's men, but you had to go

16 out.

17 Q. Can you be more specific now?

18 A. I don't know. It could have been Kajin, too, but I didn't see him

19 in that particular case. What I -- I did see him when he was by the

20 truck, when he was calling out.

21 Q. Was that in daytime?

22 A. No, night-time. Actually, it was dusk.

23 Q. So as regards night callings out, you cannot identify who it was?

24 A. No. People were not even interested. Sometimes people would say,

25 "Come on, they're calling you out," and they would say, "Keep quiet."

Page 4110

1 Q. When you mentioned the situation with Zigic, when he took out ten

2 men and that they were going to go to the toilet, can you tell me when

3 that was in relation to your arrival?

4 A. It was also in the beginning, the beginning of my stay.

5 Q. Was Zigic a shift leader of some kind at the time?

6 A. I don't know. As I said, I don't know about the shifts. I don't

7 think he was.

8 Q. Given his behaviour, that is why I'm asking you.

9 A. No. He would just come in and beat up people and leave. I don't

10 think that he was anything there.

11 Q. Did you hear from any inmate about any specific instance when

12 Kajin helped people?

13 A. No, I did not hear.

14 Q. Neither heard nor seen?

15 A. Neither heard nor seen.

16 Q. In the statement you gave last year, you again very decisively

17 said that Kajin, on one occasion, forced prisoners to collect cigarettes.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. He would do it on his own or those inmates who were in charge of

20 rooms would do it for him, and he threatened us with beating us if we

21 didn't do that.

22 A. Yes, I did say that. I said that more recently too.

23 Q. You mentioned one person, one inmate, and in the -- in last year's

24 statement, you put it all in plural, as if he appeared and -- as if he had

25 appeared and threatened everybody.

Page 4111

1 A. Well, then another soldier came and asked the same thing.

2 Q. You described an incident when you were returning from the toilet,

3 and you said that you encountered -- came across two guards who then

4 forced you to bang your head against the wall.

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Do you know who -- which guards those were?

7 A. I don't.

8 Q. Did you see them frequently in Keraterm, those two guards?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Can you describe for us how they looked?

11 A. I don't know, but I would recognise them if I saw them. When they

12 hit my head against the wall, I almost lost consciousness. And then

13 somebody said, "Stop. What you are doing?" and I somehow made it to the

14 room.

15 Q. On whose shift was this?

16 A. I don't recall exactly.

17 Q. And do you recall approximately whether this happened in relation

18 to your arrival in the camp? During which part of your stay in the camp?

19 A. That was sometime in the middle.

20 Q. When you spoke about the beating of Vasif Mujkanovic, you said

21 that you saw that incident.

22 A. No, not that I saw it, not that I saw it. I only saw him when he

23 came back to the room. This Banovic called out Vasif, and when he came

24 back, he told me about what happened. He was -- had a dark bruise over

25 his face, and then he took the German marks and Austrian shillings from

Page 4114

1 Q. That gentleman, do you remember him?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you.

4 [The accused Kolundzija sits down]

5 MR. LAWRENCE:

6 Q. You didn't know him at all before Keraterm; is that right?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Never seen him before?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you learn his nickname from the detainees, other detainees?

11 A. Only as Kole. That is all.

12 Q. And did they speak well of him?

13 A. Well, they were saying it would be a better shift, Kole's shift.

14 Q. Is it right that he had no rank; that is, he had no stripes, no

15 pips on his shoulder?

16 A. He had nothing.

17 Q. He was just dressed as other guards?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. But of course, you came to the conclusion from the way in which

20 the others behaved towards him that he was the leader of the shift, right

21 or not? Perhaps you didn't.

22 A. Yes. That is what others were saying, his shift.

23 Q. And you've told us his reputation was that he was the best shift

24 leader?

25 A. One could say so. It was the quietest shift.

Page 4115

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4116

1 Q. On his shift, were people allowed out more into the fresh air?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was there any problem about getting water on Kole's shift?

4 A. There were problems in all shifts.

5 Q. But we've heard some evidence that he tried to get water on some

6 occasions for the inmates. Can you help about that?

7 A. I don't know who provided water. That is the first time that I

8 hear that he did it. Sometimes a water truck would come, and they would

9 come from Lamovita, and they just poured the water in front of the room on

10 the concrete. That happened on one occasion. They just drain it out. It

11 was very hot.

12 Q. But that wasn't Kole?

13 A. I don't know during whose shift.

14 Q. Did you feel safer when it was Kole's shift, safer in the sense

15 that people were less likely to come in and beat anybody up during Kole's

16 shift?

17 A. Personally, it was all the same. But others were saying that it

18 was a safer shift, but there were instances of people being beaten even in

19 Kole's shift.

20 Q. I'll come to that in a moment. Is it right that he used to come

21 and chat to people in Room 2?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it was on one such occasion that you heard that he was a truck

24 driver, had a truck of his own?

25 A. Something in that sense. "When we -- when this is all over, I'll

Page 4117

1 again haul things for you. I'll drive things for you." I think something

2 in that sense was said.

3 Q. And again, I get this from statements that you've made, he was

4 saying that he used to do work for everybody, regardless of what their

5 religion was. Remember that?

6 A. I don't know. I didn't say so. But he said, "All this will pass,

7 and if we survive, we'll all work together again." He said, "You'll go

8 back to your Kozarac," and he said something, "I won't [as interpreted]

9 see my Zenica." I don't know if it was that he's from Zenica -- I don't

10 know where he's from.

11 Q. While I'm looking for the passage that you -- where you said that

12 on one occasion, Kole was speaking to Room 1 prisoners - I'm sorry, I

13 suggested Room 2, Room 1 prisoners - and said that he owned his own truck

14 which he used to transport goods for anyone, regardless of their religion,

15 did you say that to one of the Prosecutors' team?

16 A. No, you won't find that. I didn't say that. I only said that,

17 "All this will pass, and if the war ended and if we all survived it, we

18 will again work together."

19 MR. LAWRENCE: Can I just refer the Court to paragraph 6 of the

20 summary.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: This may be an appropriate time --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: -- to distribute the actual statement as well that

24 the witness has been extensively cross-examined on, and I do believe that

25 it comes right from the statement.

Page 4118

1 MR. LAWRENCE: Before that's done, might I address the Court very

2 briefly.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Sir Ivan.

4 MR. LAWRENCE: Perhaps we could do it at lunchtime break.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

6 MR. LAWRENCE:

7 Q. And do you remember two occasions when Kole bought food which had

8 been provided for the guards. He brought food to the detainees, a pot of

9 beans.

10 A. I remember that, but you did not explain it well. What the guards

11 ate and when they were done, he took their leftovers to the young men.

12 And he did it one more time, but the guards came back and then they kicked

13 all that and threw it away. This is how it happened.

14 Q. Did they do that when he was there, kicking it away and throwing

15 it away?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So didn't he have any control over the guards who did that?

18 A. I don't know what he had or hadn't -- did not have, but he was

19 there.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... about that because it's

21 quite an interesting piece of evidence that you've just given. He brought

22 leftovers of food to the inmates?

23 A. Yes, the leftovers.

24 Q. On two occasions that you can remember?

25 A. Yes. That was for the ones who were very thin or young, six or

Page 4119

1 ten, and they ate on one occasion. And on the second occasion, they

2 chased them all away and beat them up.

3 Q. Yes. But on however many occasions you saw Kole altogether, what

4 are we talking about, how many occasions did you see him all together?

5 Five times, ten times?

6 A. I don't know. As regards food, two or three times, the food

7 incidents, but I know that they chased him away.

8 Q. Two or three times he brought food for inmates?

9 A. He did not bring it. It was a leftover. They had whatever they

10 wanted. And then he would give the leftovers, and on one occasion they

11 ate and that was fine. The second time, they were chased, they were

12 chased away, and they were kicking the plates around.

13 Q. Please listen to me. One point at a time. The guard -- the

14 guards didn't eat in Room 1 or 2, did they? Yes or no.

15 A. No.

16 Q. So when you say that he provided food, the leftovers, he brought,

17 he himself brought food from where the guards had been eating to some

18 inmates, yes?

19 A. It was -- he ordered, this is what I heard and this is what I

20 heard, he ordered about ten who were young and who were thin, he ordered

21 them out. This is what made him good. It -- the food was left by the

22 weigh hut, and the men came over and ate that food. It was fine the first

23 time. They were young men, 17 or -- the second time they came over, and

24 when they wanted to eat, they were chased away and the food was kicked

25 away.

Page 4120

1 Q. Sorry, I misunderstood you. It's my fault, I'm sorry. He took

2 inmates out to where there was food, right, on two or three occasions that

3 you yourself saw?

4 A. I don't know whether he took them out, but ordered them to come

5 out.

6 Q. Thank you. And on one of the occasions which you saw, guards

7 kicked the food away in front of Kole?

8 A. Yes, and cursed their mothers. "We feed you here," and all that,

9 and, "You're killing us," things like that.

10 Q. Were there other occasions when he helped families to bring in

11 food or blankets, medicines?

12 A. I know that I received nothing, and I don't know whether he

13 helped.

14 Q. Did you ever see -- can I just finish?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just finish your question, and then we'll take

16 the break, yes.

17 MR. LAWRENCE:

18 Q. Did you ever see Kole beating or killing anyone?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Or humiliating anyone?

21 A. No, I did not see it.

22 Q. Did you ever see him present at a beating?

23 A. Well, he was present.

24 Q. Did you ever see him present at a beating?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4121

1 Q. Did you ever see him present at a killing?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you ever hear him --

4 A. Except for the massacre.

5 Q. Yes. Leave aside the massacre. Did you ever hear him instigating

6 a beating or a killing?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Or approving of a beating or a killing?

9 A. Nobody asked me, but I was never asked what, what should be done.

10 That's a strange question.

11 Q. Please, can I ask the question again. Did you ever see him giving

12 approval to a beating or a killing sometime afterwards?

13 A. How do I know what they were talking about? I cannot answer that

14 question.

15 Q. Well, if --

16 A. I did not hear it.

17 Q. That's right. You've answered the question. You never heard him

18 talking of any --

19 A. It's very hard.

20 Q. Yes. And did you ever hear him or see him encouraging anybody for

21 having beaten somebody or killed them?

22 A. The same thing. I couldn't. I was not in a position to hear it,

23 and I could not see. To me, these are absurd questions.

24 Q. Very well. But please bear with me, absurd as they may be.

25 Did you ever hear from any other inmate that Kole had beaten

Page 4122

1 anyone or killed anyone?

2 A. No, I did not hear.

3 Q. Or been present at any beating or killing?

4 A. I did not hear it. I don't recall. Maybe he did have somebody,

5 but I wasn't -- I didn't hear it.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan.

7 MR. LAWRENCE: Last sentence.

8 Q. Or hear from any other inmate that he instigated, approved, or

9 encouraged any beating?

10 A. No, I did not hear.

11 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you. Your Honour, may I -- if this is a

12 moment, my learned friend Mr. Ryneveld --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I think I'd prefer to deal with that in the

14 afternoon.

15 Witness X, we will now take the luncheon adjournment. During the

16 adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody, including

17 the members of the Prosecution team.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.

Page 4123

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4124

1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Sir Ivan. You had wanted to raise a point.

3 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. There was an application made by my learned

4 friend Mr. Ryneveld to put the statements before you if there had been

5 cross-examination arising out of a matter which is in those statements. I

6 merely rise, not because I necessarily object to that, though I'm sure the

7 Court would want to consider every application on its merits, just to

8 clarify something which I think is the position, and that is that if those

9 statements are put before the Court, as I understand it, the Court just

10 considers those parts of the statement that are relevant to the matter in

11 issue and that those statements aren't read by the Court at large as part

12 of the overall evidence in the case.

13 I understand from one of my learned friends that that is the

14 position which the Court has hitherto adopted or the courts have hitherto

15 adopted, that those statements can be used by the Court for limited

16 circumstances and not at large.

17 I wonder if the Court could --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: It would be admitted in relation to that part of

19 it that deals with the question of inconsistency or the matter for which

20 it was put in.

21 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you. I'm obliged.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. Very

24 briefly. Yesterday there was something left unsaid with regard to one

25 such piece of evidence. I wanted to tender a document yesterday

Page 4125

1 concerning the witness before this one and it was left unsaid. I would

2 like to tender this statement of 1994, and I should like to ask the

3 Chamber to rule on that.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

5 Mr. Greaves?

6 MR. GREAVES: I was going to raise something at the end of this

7 witness's evidence. I didn't realise that he was still here. I thought

8 he had finished.

9 If I may have Your Honours' leave to rise when he's finished,

10 please.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.

12 Sir Ivan.

13 MR. LAWRENCE:

14 Q. Witness X, I was asking you about Kole before we rose, and you

15 gave me a number of answers, which I thank you, and you said at one stage

16 that Kole was present at a beating. Remember?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. That was just one occasion, was it?

19 A. I remember only one occasion of seeing him present whilst the

20 others beat.

21 Q. Yes. And was that an occasion when he was shouting at men who

22 were kicking prisoners?

23 A. I don't remember that. I do not remember if that was that

24 occasion.

25 Q. Can I read you something that you said to the Prosecutor's Office

Page 4126

1 in the statement which you made on the 16th and 18th of August of the year

2 2000? Can I read that to you so that you can help us?

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Would this be an appropriate time for the Court to

4 follow along, perhaps?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: I have copies for Their Honours. I have more

7 copies if they're needed, but I think my learned friends have them.

8 MR. LAWRENCE:

9 Q. This is paragraph 7 at page 8 -- I'm sorry, paragraph 7 at page

10 4. "Guards started kicking prisoners," and you said, "I remember that

11 Kole was present when all this occurred. I think he was shouting at the

12 men kicking the prisoners, but I do not know what he was shouting. The

13 prisoners rejoined the rest of us. I think Kole continued to shout at the

14 men who'd been kicking them." Right? Does that bring it back to you?

15 A. Well, yes, if I said that, then it is true. But I was there, and

16 I saw Kole standing as people were being beaten next to him. There is

17 perhaps nothing about that.

18 Q. Well, this is what you said, you see, when you were asked about

19 that incident. And what he was trying to do was to stop them beating the

20 prisoners, wasn't he?

21 A. Yes, that was then. But what I'm telling you was over there, and

22 I couldn't hear him. I do not know if he shouted anything at all.

23 Q. We understand. You're some distance away?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You're in the room, and this is happening down by the weigh bridge

Page 4127

1 hut?

2 A. When I heard him shout, "Leave people alone. Don't hit people,"

3 that I heard. But the second time when it was down there somewhere near

4 the weigh hut, way away from number 2, then I didn't hear.

5 Q. And that's the incident that you're talking about where he was

6 present at a beating?

7 A. No. There was that time -- well, not many, but there were quite a

8 few incidents.

9 Q. Well, did you go on to say to Mr. Ryneveld over there who was

10 taking the statement, "Other than this incident, I do not remember ever

11 seeing Kole present when someone was being beaten"? Did you say that?

12 A. Did I say that? The more I look at it, the more my memory comes

13 back to me, if you can understand what I mean. In five days' time if you

14 ask me something, I'll remember something else again.

15 Q. But isn't your memory better the nearer you are to the events?

16 A. At the beginning I said I'm trying to forget all this as soon as

17 possible, and I'd really be the happiest if I could completely forget

18 everything when I leave this place.

19 Q. All right. But when you were spoken to on the 16th to 18th of

20 August in the year 2000, wasn't your memory better, because it was closer

21 to what happened in 1992, than it is now?

22 A. No. Things are coming back to me slowly, and if I shut my eyes,

23 then I begin to see everything as it was. I don't know if you understand

24 what I'm saying.

25 I tried to wipe the slate clean, and I'd forgotten practically

Page 4128

1 everything.

2 Q. But when you made your statement, you didn't say, "I can't

3 remember anything. I can't remember incidents." You said, "Other than

4 this incident, I do not remember ever seeing Kole present when someone was

5 being beaten."

6 Did you say that? Firstly, did you say that or is that --

7 A. I did, yes. And I remember now that I saw him on another occasion

8 too.

9 Q. And when you said, was that the truth or was it not the truth?

10 A. The truth, both then and now.

11 Q. Why couldn't you remember, when you were asked any occasions when

12 you saw Kole present at a beating, why couldn't you remember two

13 occasions? Why could you only remember one occasion?

14 A. Because it was a long time ago. But if you ask me something

15 tomorrow, perhaps I'll remember yet another thing.

16 Q. What was the second occasion when you say that you saw Kole

17 present when someone was being beaten?

18 A. Down there near the weigh bridge, near the entrance somewhere.

19 Q. Near the entrance somewhere.

20 A. The left. To the left of the weigh bridge from where I could see

21 it.

22 Q. How far away were you from that?

23 A. I can't say exactly, but I was quite far. Thirty metres perhaps.

24 I really don't know how much.

25 Q. But it's more than 30 metres from the door of Room 1 or 2 to the

Page 4129

1 hut at the entrance, isn't it?

2 A. To the left of the weigh bridge, not quite by the entrance. Not

3 right by the entrance.

4 Q. When was that?

5 A. I just said awhile ago I don't remember dates, but I had been in

6 the camp for some time.

7 Q. What time of day was that?

8 A. I don't know. Late afternoon.

9 Q. Who was it that was being abused?

10 A. Well, who else but us in the camp.

11 Q. No. But which inmate was being beaten?

12 A. I don't remember that either. I only remember that I saw it down

13 there.

14 Q. How many guards were there there?

15 A. I don't remember. There were two or three of them, I think.

16 Q. You think. And what was Kole doing?

17 A. He was around there, nearby.

18 Q. Was he doing anything?

19 A. No. He did not beat them. How do I know what he was doing? I'm

20 telling you that it was at quite a distance.

21 Q. On the one occasion that you could remember an incident where he

22 was present in August of 2000, he was trying to stop the beating, you've

23 told us; is that right?

24 A. Yes, that is right. I said that Kajin, too, would come and yell,

25 "Why are you beating?" and then he would burst out laughing. That's what

Page 4130

1 else I said.

2 Q. I'm only asking you about Kole. I'm not asking about Kajin or

3 anybody else. So please keep your mind on Kole.

4 On this second occasion, was Kole trying to stop that beating as

5 well?

6 A. I could not see that. I could not hear it. I could not hear it

7 because it was so far. I could see. But how can I know what he tried and

8 if he tried anything?

9 Q. So your answer is that you don't know whether he was trying to

10 stop it or not. You really don't know.

11 A. Of course I don't.

12 Q. So you never saw Kole taking part in any mistreatment of any

13 prisoner; is that right?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. He was never an active participant in the mistreatment or killing

16 of any Keraterm detainee; is that right?

17 A. I did not see it. Maybe somebody else did. I didn't.

18 Q. As far as you could see, he was never an active participant in the

19 mistreatment or killing of any Keraterm detainee?

20 A. I did not see it.

21 Q. You said in answer to my learned friend a little while ago that in

22 Kole's shift, calling out at night did not happen so much. Do you

23 remember saying that?

24 A. Yes. There was some but not as much as on other occasions.

25 Q. May I suggest to you that he never allowed anyone to be called out

Page 4131

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4132

1 for violence to be done to them on his shift?

2 A. No, you can't say that.

3 Q. You told us that the doors were locked in the rooms. Is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you went there first, the doors weren't locked, were they, at

7 night?

8 A. I don't know which door you had in mind. There was this first

9 door through which one could not see, and then there were the bars, and

10 the door was open. Only when they would get angry, they'd close that

11 door. But normally the door remained open, I've already said that. It

12 was open most of the time, but when they would get angry, they'd close it,

13 and it was unbearably hot.

14 Q. If anybody has given evidence, any inmate has given evidence that

15 the doors were specifically locked to stop people like Zigic and Banovic

16 and Duca coming in at night and beating up detainees, it was locked in

17 order to stop that happening, what do you say?

18 A. It did prevent them because Duca, Zigic would beat everybody they

19 could lay their hands on. But when the door is locked and when they had

20 to call out, then they knew whom to call out because they knew the names,

21 they knew the names. And Duca, Zigic did not make any selection; they'd

22 beat everybody. When Kajin called out, then you knew who it was, and Kole

23 when he was there.

24 Q. Are you suggesting that Kole ever called somebody out for the

25 purpose of being beaten? Are you saying that?

Page 4133

1 A. No, no. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there were beatings

2 on his shift, and I'm also saying that one knew which people would come

3 out. When Zigic and Duca came, then you didn't because they would say,

4 "Just the first turn," or as they come in, they start firing their rifles

5 and people moved back. That is what it looked like when Zigic came.

6 Q. They could only do that when the door was open, couldn't they?

7 A. Yes, in daytime when it was open, yes, they could do it.

8 Q. And at nighttime the door was locked so that they couldn't do it

9 in Kole's shift, isn't that right?

10 A. What I do know is that people were taken out. Perhaps it wasn't

11 they; perhaps it was somebody else. But people were called out on Kole's

12 shift, not as much as on other shifts.

13 Q. Can you remember any date when anybody was called out on Kole's

14 shift?

15 A. I can't recall.

16 Q. Can you recall the name of any detainee who was called out on

17 Kole's shift?

18 A. No, I cannot recall that.

19 Q. And all the evidence that you've given us so far, which of course

20 I accept as the truth, is that Kole was always against, never in favour

21 of, anybody being beaten. You've said that, haven't you?

22 A. I said that his shift was one of the best, but people were called

23 out during his shift but less so than during other shifts. That is what I

24 said.

25 Q. Keraterm is a big camp, isn't it?

Page 4134

1 A. It is.

2 Q. And I suppose it's possible that something was happening in one

3 part of the camp that a shift leader might not know was going on.

4 A. You shouldn't ask me that. They should know better. They should

5 know it.

6 Q. Yes. But I can ask you about size, I can ask you about the large

7 number of people there, the large number of things -- large number of

8 things were going on at any moment of time, weren't they?

9 A. Yes, you can.

10 Q. And so you're not suggesting that Kole knew, if he was on a shift

11 where people were being called out, knew that they were being called out.

12 You're not suggesting that, are you?

13 A. How can I know that? I know it was Kole's shift.

14 Q. As far as Kole generally behaved as a shift commander, you've gone

15 through a number of things that Kole did to try to help prisoners; is that

16 right? Detainees, I mean.

17 A. You mentioned that. You mentioned that several, and I mentioned

18 when he gave us the leftovers of beans, and you mixed it up with water. I

19 don't remember that. I remember that water arrived and then was spilled.

20 Q. Yes. But you didn't suggest that was on Kole's shift, did you?

21 A. No. I don't know during whose shift it was. You asked me if he

22 brought any water in. I said I don't know. I know we were short of

23 water.

24 Q. You've mentioned to us about the shooting at Room 3, which we know

25 was on the 24th of July.

Page 4135

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. That must have been a horrifying occasion for you.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You were shocked?

5 A. But of course I was in a shock, and everybody -- so was everybody

6 else who was there. I don't know what you mean by "shocked." Did I faint

7 or something?

8 Q. No, just feeling shocked and confused. Were you confused by it?

9 A. Well, I don't know who wouldn't be in a shock if there was all

10 this gunfire.

11 Q. And so there had been this gunfire and then you heard Kole

12 shouting; is that right?

13 A. Not immediately. Not straight away. There was this shooting

14 first. It is impossible to describe those screams, those bellowing. The

15 first one heard bursts of fire, then individual shots, people screaming,

16 and it was after that that I heard Kole.

17 Q. Yes, but the shooting went on, didn't it?

18 A. Yes, for a while.

19 Q. And in the middle of the shooting, Kole -- you heard Kole

20 shouting, didn't you?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And he was trying to get the soldiers to stop shooting any more,

23 wasn't he?

24 A. I can tell you what he was shouting and then you can draw your own

25 conclusions about what he wanted to achieve with that.

Page 4136

1 Q. Just generally, was it your impression, because it's difficult to

2 remember precisely words nine years later, was it your general impression

3 that he was trying to stop any more shooting?

4 A. At that moment, yes. At that moment, we thought that perhaps he

5 had helped us. When he said, "Don't fire at the -- at number 2. These

6 people had been interrogated. Fuck you. So let them be," but it turned

7 out it didn't help those over there.

8 Q. Because the shooting went on.

9 A. Yes, for some time.

10 Q. So his shouting had no effect upon the soldiers who were shooting?

11 A. Shooting went on after that. "Don't fire at number 2. I am in

12 charge. I guarantee for these people. They'd been -- they were

13 interrogated."

14 Q. You've told us that he was the best guard and that was the general

15 impression throughout the camp.

16 A. Yes. I always said that the others said, "Kole's shift is

17 coming. It will be better." To me it was all the same from the moment I

18 went in until I came out.

19 Q. From what the others had said, would it have been better for you

20 inmates if he had run away, deserted his post, or was it better that he

21 should be a shift leader while you were there?

22 A. I don't know anything about that, whether it would have been

23 better or worse. I know that the same group came the next day and asked

24 whether we wanted to play war. So it was on Kajin's shift, and it

25 continued, and they could have chased him away the next day.

Page 4137

1 They were -- they came to the bars and put -- they were wearing

2 red berets, and they put their hands on the bars and they said, "Boys,

3 shall we play war?"

4 Q. But that wasn't on Kole's shift.

5 A. I saw the Banovics. I saw Banovic. He arrived on a motorcycle.

6 Shooting was still going on and Kajin was around. That was the next day

7 when the dead ones were loaded up.

8 Q. Can I just ask you about Besim Hrgic who was, as you've told us,

9 beaten to death? Was that about a month after you arrived at Keraterm?

10 A. Yes, about a month. Maybe even more.

11 Q. But it was before the Room 3 massacre?

12 A. I think it was before.

13 Q. Several days before?

14 A. I don't know. I cannot give you the details.

15 Q. At any rate, it wasn't on Kole's shift, was it?

16 A. I don't know. As I said before, I don't know whose shift was on

17 duty.

18 Q. You replied to a question from Mr. Rodic here on my right that one

19 of the men with you in Room 2 was Namik Mahic. Do you remember?

20 A. Yes, Namik Mahic. I remember.

21 Q. Do you know him?

22 A. I know him. He was a schoolteacher.

23 Q. And is he a respectable and honest man?

24 A. To me, yes, he was respectable and honest.

25 Q. And he was in Room 2 with you?

Page 4153

1 Q. I don't need the date exactly, just merely an indication. And

2 it's right, isn't it, that the person who was in charge of the camp, a man

3 called Kuruzovic, ordered that registration and supervised it in person,

4 didn't he?

5 A. I do not know who ordered that because I could not hear that. If

6 you're asking if Mr. Kuruzovic was in the room where they were taking down

7 our names and where the representative of the Red Cross sat and did that,

8 yes, that is correct.

9 Q. I asked you because you told Kari Seppanen, "I'm sure that

10 Kuruzovic ordered this registration. I saw how he supervised it

11 personally." Does that refresh your memory?

12 A. I mean, the statement dates many years back. Whether he ordered

13 that, whether he had ordered that, I could not know that, no. That is not

14 quite correct.

15 Q. I know that you've given evidence about this, but I just want to

16 just establish, for the purposes of the questions I'm going to ask you,

17 the numbers of people who passed through Trnopolje during your stay there

18 would be about 25.000; is that right?

19 A. Well, that was my educated guess, in view of the population

20 structure before the war, I mean, and the number of people who came

21 there. I can explain it once again and give you the figures if you want

22 me to.

23 Q. Just this: The population you estimated of the Prijedor district

24 in evidence about 60.000; is that right?

25 A. Yes, about that. Muslim and Croat population. That is what I

Page 4154

1 meant.

2 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that the majority of those who passed

3 through the camp were women and children. Do you accept that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. The period that you were detained was the end of May, 26th of May

6 to the 1st of October; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it your position that no food was ever provided to the

9 prisoners, the detainees at Trnopolje?

10 A. I'm not claiming that food was never given to them. I will tell

11 you that the Serb authorities -- if you want me to, I can tell you about

12 the whole -- about the whole duration of the camp.

13 The Serb authorities did bring some food, some cooked food, only

14 between the 6th of August and the arrival of the International Red Cross

15 from Geneva to Trnopolje, which was sometime in mid-August, around 15th or

16 16th, and that quantity of food could feed only about 200 people and there

17 were thousands of people in the camp.

18 Q. Is it still your position that before that time, the detainees at

19 Trnopolje had to go out and forage and find their own food and that was

20 the only source of nourishment that they could get?

21 A. Yes. It applies to the period between mid-July until the

22 6th of August.

23 Q. That simply is not true, is it, Witness Y? Isn't it right that

24 every day the Serbian Red Cross brought bread into the camp?

25 A. Yes, that is right, but we had to pay for that bread. We bought

Page 4155

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4156

1 that bread.

2 Q. So when you told us that the only source of food was by the

3 prisoners, by the detainees going out and foraging for themselves, it

4 wasn't true, was it?

5 A. No, it's true. The quantity of bread available was limited,

6 limited only in terms of the amount of money available.

7 Q. I suggest to you that you're only saying that now in order to

8 explain away your answer, now that you've been discovered as being not

9 entirely truthful about these matters. Isn't that right?

10 A. I'm only giving you the facts and events as they happened. I

11 never said the Red Cross did not bring the bread. I never said that. But

12 we had to pay for it, and it was still in short supply.

13 Q. Amongst other things, you were able to go out from the camp and

14 get milk, is that right, although that did stop when the area was cleared

15 of people? Do you remember that?

16 A. I remember well how on two occasions I came out of the camp to get

17 milk for the hungry children, for infants, for babies, and at my

18 insistence and with the permission of the camp commander.

19 Q. And after mid-June, prisoners were routinely allowed to go out of

20 the camp in order to look for food; is that right?

21 A. It was in the latter part of July. I'm not saying -- some people

22 perhaps did go to neighbouring houses, but those houses were empty, you

23 know.

24 Q. People were allowed to leave when they wanted; isn't that right?

25 A. No.

Page 4157

1 Q. Well, forgive me, Witness Y. We've heard from a witness in this

2 court who was at Trnopolje, who simply went to a guard and asked if he

3 could leave and was permitted to leave. That was something that was quite

4 regular, wasn't it?

5 A. No. When I said no, it was to your question when you said

6 "whenever they wanted," and that is not true. People could go to the

7 checkpoint in the morning to leave their personal papers and stay away for

8 an hour or two, saying that they were going to have a shower or a bath,

9 but they had to come back quickly. They could not go whenever they

10 wanted. They could not go out at dusk. They could not stay as long as

11 they wanted. They had to return quickly. So that is what I meant when I

12 answered.

13 Q. Witness Y, we're talking not just about people going out for an

14 hour or so but people simply leaving the camp completely and never coming

15 back. That, I suggest to you, was a common occurrence?

16 A. No. These are not the facts. Yes, the camp could be left, and I

17 told you only with the authorisation of the camp commander. I mean

18 finally to leave with the authorisation of the camp commander and a

19 special certificate issued by the Red Cross.

20 Q. This witness told us that he went to a guard and asked if he could

21 go. Are you saying that was simply impossible?

22 A. No. I grant that it was possible for somebody to go back and look

23 for food and come back to the camp. And most of the inmates did indeed go

24 out to search for food and would return except those who were killed in

25 neighbouring houses or perhaps fields. They never came back, that is

Page 4158

1 true.

2 Q. You see, isn't the reality of Trnopolje that, in fact, it was

3 regarded as something of a safe haven for the Muslim population?

4 A. We were all brought to Trnopolje by force, number one. Number

5 two, there was no safe haven for Muslims. Our lives were not worth a

6 penny. Our lives had lost any purpose. Our lives were worthless. We

7 were simply dead men moving around, and that is how we were and that was

8 the treatment that the Serbs or, rather, Serb soldiers accorded to us.

9 There was no room for us.

10 Q. You see, we've heard evidence, Witness Y, from a witness who says

11 he paid money to be brought to Trnopolje. What you're saying is simply

12 not true, is it?

13 A. That witness perhaps did pay it. There were such cases. I've

14 heard of them. But towards the end, and that was in September, in late

15 September 1992, when the International Red Cross had registered all the

16 inmates and when it was known that all the registered inmates would, in an

17 organised way and with the escort of the Red Cross, would leave that area

18 and go to third countries. So that encouraged many people who at that

19 time were living in Prijedor -- that induced many people who were living

20 in Prijedor to pay for the transportation to the camp commander and his

21 men, because he had promised that he would organise it, that he would get

22 the International Red Cross cards, and that thus they would be able to

23 leave the area.

24 Q. I'd like you to have a look at a couple of documents, Witness Y,

25 which there are copies for the learned Judges and my learned friends.

Page 4159

1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, can I explain, please, that these

2 documents were the ones I referred to when the issue of the 92 bis

3 cross-examinations came up. They were sent for translation immediately

4 thereafter. I'm afraid that we have not received the translations back,

5 but they are being prepared. But as these are lists, I think they're

6 pretty simple to follow, and I don't think Your Honours will find it

7 difficult in the absence of the translations at the present time.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It's now ten to four though, so we'll take

9 the break now.

10 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. Until what time, please?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ten past four.

12 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness Y, we will be taking a short break.

14 During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody

15 and that includes the members of the Prosecution.

16 The senior legal officer.

17 [The Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

18 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves.

21 MR. GREAVES: Yes.

22 Q. Witness Y, I'd like you to have a look at the documents which are

23 being distributed to the learned Judges and, I hope, also to my learned

24 friends.

25 MR. GREAVES: It's our document. Give it to the witness, thank

Page 4160

1 you.

2 Q. Witness Y, do you see that that is a document which is

3 handwritten?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps the other one could be put on the ELMO so

6 that we can look at it and, if necessary, use the ELMO.

7 Q. Do you see -- at the moment we haven't got a translation, and on

8 the face of it it's just a list, Witness Y. Do you see at the top of the

9 page there is a series of words, seven or eight words ending in

10 "Trnopolje," which is underlined, and it starts with "spisak"?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Would you be so kind, please, as to give us a translation of that

13 line? Just read the line out for us, please.

14 A. "The list of persons who would return to Trnopolje."

15 Q. And would you just look through it, please. There are names on

16 both sides of the page. Just look at the names, please. If I could just

17 remind you we're just dealing with the handwritten one at the moment,

18 please, Witness Y.

19 Are there names in that list whom you recognise as having been

20 people who were detained in Trnopolje during your period there, Witness Y?

21 A. Some names are familiar to me. I heard of them, but I, of course,

22 don't know whether they are all from Kozarac. I did not know all of them.

23 Q. Of course. And as to my question, were they people who were, in

24 fact, in Trnopolje?

25 A. Saban Blazevic, born in 1929, I don't know him. I know the

Page 4161

1 persons who had the same first and last name. I don't know all the people

2 who were in Trnopolje.

3 Q. Of course. I wouldn't expect you to. I just want you to help us.

4 If you cannot help us, then we'll move on to the next document, Witness Y.

5 Could you look at the second document, which is a typewritten

6 document, please. Thank you. Do you see that one, please? Would you

7 look at it, and can you also see a similar line which also starts with the

8 words in your language spisak? Would you read that line and the line

9 immediately beneath it, please.

10 A. "The list of persons for the return in Trnopolje on 7 and 8 June,

11 1992, in Puharska, the following persons put their names down to be

12 returned to Trnopolje."

13 Q. And again, just looking quickly, if you will, are any of the

14 people on that list people that you knew and people who were also detained

15 at any stage in Trnopolje?

16 A. I don't know a single person from this list.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. I've dealt with those.

18 MR. GREAVES: If they may acquire an exhibit number of some sort,

19 please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: The first document will be known as Defence

21 Exhibit D 16/1, the second will be known as D17/1.

22 MR. GREAVES:

23 Q. Witness Y, can you tell me, please, if you knew any of the

24 following individuals: Mustafa Glamocanin?

25 A. I don't know him.

Page 4162

1 Q. Adem Demirovic?

2 A. I don't know him.

3 Q. Fikret Hujic?

4 A. That last name does not ring a bell. It does not exist.

5 Q. Mesud Kadic or Kodic? I think it's probably Kadic. No? You've

6 not heard of him. Nihad Blazevic?

7 A. I don't recall.

8 Q. Mario Blazevic? Smajo. I'm sorry. I'm corrected by my learned

9 friend. You've not heard of him?

10 A. No. I cannot know 22.000 people in Kozarac.

11 Q. I have some particular ones that I want to know if you knew any of

12 these: Hase or Huse Mujagic?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Irfan Hegic?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Redzep Talurovic. Or Tahirovic. I'm sorry.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you hear, at any time during your stay at Trnopolje, of people

19 receiving salaries at Trnopolje from their jobs that they'd left behind

20 them?

21 A. As far as I recall, he did come on one occasion. I cannot give

22 you the exact period of time, but a man came and produced a list of people

23 who were working in some companies before the war so that they could be

24 given the money which they had earned when they worked in the period of

25 May. I know that they discussed -- they discussed it. A number of them

Page 4163

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4164

1 signed some documents, something that would be a request for getting the

2 compensation for work that they had done. Now, whether that ever reached

3 them or not, I don't know.

4 Q. I'd like you to look at a document, please, which there are copies

5 for the learned Judges and my learned friends.

6 Again if you would be so kind, please, Witness Y, to look at this

7 document. You will see that there is a heading to it in the same way that

8 the other two documents had a heading. Could you read out the heading,

9 please?

10 A. "Payment of salaries for the employees of the 4th of July

11 Company."

12 Q. And does it list --

13 A. "Trnopolje, 26 June 1992."

14 Q. And does it list nine names, and next to the names which appear to

15 be figures DM, Deutschemark, 9.000, 10.000, 6.000, 9.000, 7.000? Dinars.

16 I'm sorry. I misread it. Dinars, 9.000, 10.000, and so forth, a total of

17 74.000, and does it appear also to be signed by the recipients?

18 A. It is correct. I do see a list of persons who used to work for a

19 company called "Fourth of July," and it was a sanitation company and it

20 was a utility company. I recognise the name of person under seven, Haso

21 Mujagic. It is correct, he was at Trnopolje. The amounts shown are in

22 dinars rather than German marks and there are signatures there. It is a

23 fact that -- I'm sorry, I'm not going to give the names. I'm sorry.

24 Yes, I see that there are signatures, but what is in issue is the

25 authenticity of these signatures. Anybody could have signed.

Page 4165

1 Q. Of course. No doubt. But you had certainly heard of people who

2 were having their May salaries paid to them in this camp, and so that

3 would -- that document would fit, would it not, with something which you

4 had plainly heard? Do you accept that?

5 A. I did hear that it existed, but there was another person who was

6 also an employee of that same company who never received his salary. He

7 happens to be [redacted] you see.

8 Q. No doubt. You see, the fact of the matter is that considerable

9 efforts were made, were there not, to try and do things like get money to

10 people, get gifts brought in to people, get food brought in to people at

11 Trnopolje? Isn't that right?

12 A. I wouldn't agree with you.

13 Q. I would like you to look, please, at the next document. Before

14 that document comes to you, perhaps you can just answer this question in

15 relation to the last one: Are the names on that, are they all of Muslim

16 people as far as you can see?

17 A. These are Muslim names.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. GREAVES: And perhaps in the meantime that document may also

20 acquire an exhibit number, please, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Defence Exhibit D18/1.

23 MR. GREAVES:

24 Q. Witness Y, again a document, a list and a heading, one word. What

25 is the one word which appears at the heading of that document, please?

Page 4166

1 A. "Gifts."

2 Q. And in the top right-hand corner, Trnopolje and a date?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And does that appear to be a list, again, of Muslim names with

5 signatures to the right of it?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. GREAVES: Again, may that acquire an exhibit number, please,

8 Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Defence Exhibit D19/1.

11 MR. GREAVES:

12 Q. And then I'd like you to look next at six more documents, please,

13 if you'd be so kind. Again, I think my learned friend has copies of

14 those. I think they're already in the bundle, I'm sorry. I missed that.

15 There is some more in the bundle, aren't there? Can you see

16 another document immediately after that which has at the top right-hand

17 corner, Witness Y, 2.7.92? Do you have that?

18 A. Yes, I do see it.

19 Q. Again, a list of names and a heading. Could you read out what the

20 heading to that document is, please?

21 A. "Receipt of packages, 2 July 1992."

22 Q. And looking at the reverse side of that, a total of 39 names

23 there, again with signatures. Would you confirm that those are Muslim

24 names in those 39 names, please?

25 A. At first glass glance, yes.

Page 4167

1 Q. Next document, please, headed "Trnopolje 20.6.92." Do you see

2 that, please?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The heading of that document, would you be so kind as to read it

5 to us?

6 A. "Trnopolje, 20th of June, 1992, parcels with food handed over."

7 Q. Thank you. Total of 42 names, looking at the reverse of it.

8 Again, are they all Muslim names bearing signatures, or what appear to be

9 signatures?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Next document, please, which is slightly more organised in that

12 it's got some lines on it, and you'll see, I think, that it has the date

13 17.06.1992. Do you see that document?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. And although the first word of the heading is slightly illegible,

16 I think it is again "spisak." Could you read out what the heading of the

17 document is, please?

18 A. [No translation]

19 MR. GREAVES: I didn't hear --

20 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry.

21 A. The list of refugees in Trnopolje who received parcels on the

22 17th of June, 1992.

23 MR. GREAVES:

24 Q. And if you'd look, please, at the two columns which are set out

25 there, one which appears to be names, one which appears to be signatures.

Page 4168

1 Could you just read out, first of all, the heading that appears above the

2 names, please?

3 A. First column, first name and surname, and the second confirming

4 the receipt and then "signatures" in brackets.

5 Q. And looking over the page, it looks like a total of 36 names.

6 Again, can you confirm all Muslim names?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Next document, please, headed, it looks, "Trnopolje 21.6.92." Do

9 you have that document? It's a short list.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you be so kind as to read out the heading of that document,

12 please, two words?

13 A. "Parcels Delivered."

14 Q. And again, eight names on the face of it with some signatures

15 annexed thereto. Again, all Muslim names?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Next document, please, headed "Trnopolje 19.6.92." Heading -- may

18 we take that as "Packages," the heading of that document?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Twenty-four-odd names, again with signatures attached thereto?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Again Muslim names?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Next document, please, headed "Trnopolje, 23.6.92." Heading --

25 would you read that, please?

Page 4169

1 A. "Gifts."

2 Q. Twenty-seven names, signatures. Again, could you confirm those

3 are Muslim names?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Just for the sake of clarity, number 10 does not appear to have a

6 signature annexed to it.

7 Witness Y, I suggest to you that when you told us that packages,

8 gifts, food, and so on were not brought in, that wasn't true, was it?

9 There was a constant flow of such items being brought into the camp, was

10 there not?

11 A. I never said that there were no gifts in the Trnopolje camp. You

12 asked me about organised food supply in Trnopolje.

13 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours would just give me a moment,

14 please.

15 Q. What you were asked, Witness Y, was that efforts were made to try

16 and do things like get money to people, get gifts brought in, get food

17 brought in to people, and you said you didn't agree with that. We weren't

18 talking about organised food distribution.

19 What I suggest is that throughout your time in Trnopolje, there

20 was a constant delivery of and bringing in of items of the type which I

21 have described, and they came in quite freely, did they not, and were

22 received, were they not?

23 A. Let me explain this to Your Honours for the sake of truth. Those

24 gifts for those people that you have on the list are gifts sent by Muslims

25 who at the time lived in Prijedor, either family members or relatives or

Page 4170

1 people from Kozarac who, on the first day, were taken to Trnopolje -- to

2 Prijedor - excuse me - to Prijedor, from Kozarac to Prijedor, and they

3 were accommodated with relatives and friends. On the other hand, men were

4 detained in Trnopolje, and they were sending those gifts through the Red

5 Cross.

6 Those lists that you have, it was the Red Cross, the Serb Red

7 Cross in Trnopolje which did that, that is, collected those gifts and then

8 delivered them to those people. So let us be clear about that.

9 Q. It's also the case, is it not, that people who had lost contact

10 with relatives and so forth were able to make inquiries of the camp in

11 order to establish if somebody who was missing was there? Do you accept

12 that?

13 A. Whom do you mean, sir?

14 Q. Well, did you at any stage hear of anybody who was allowed to make

15 inquiries at the camp about missing persons? If you didn't, then tell us.

16 A. I cannot answer in one sentence. As when the inmates from

17 Keraterm and Omarska arrived in Trnopolje, it became possible also for

18 people in Prijedor, I mean women and children, of course, wives, to enter

19 the camp and inquire about their next of kin whom they were looking for,

20 whether they were there. That is true.

21 Q. Just look at this document, please, if you will. It's a text

22 document, Witness Y. What I'd like you to do with it, please, is just

23 read it through to yourself for the moment, if you'd be so kind, and

24 indicate when you have finished reading it, please.

25 A. "Trnopolje, 19th of June, 1992, the tracing service."

Page 4171

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

Page 4172

1 Q. Don't read it out in full. I just want you to read it to

2 yourself, please, and I'm going to ask you just to summarise it quickly.

3 Just tell us what the heading is, please. There are two words at the top

4 there.

5 A. "The tracing service."

6 Q. Would it be fair to summarise it in this way, and if it isn't,

7 please tell me, that it's a document written, on the face of it, by a wife

8 making inquiries about a husband who had been in hospital, and she is

9 seeking information as to his whereabouts?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. GREAVES: May that also acquire an exhibit number, please.

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Defence Exhibit D26/1.

14 MR. GREAVES:

15 Q. Witness Y, I want just to return briefly to the food situation.

16 Is it your evidence that throughout your stay, apart from the Red Cross

17 selling bread, no other food supplies were provided by the authorities at

18 the camp at any time?

19 A. I shall repeat it. Apart from the bread which we received through

20 the Red Cross, and, as I have said, food was brought in between the 6th of

21 August, that is, following the arrival of the inmates from Omarska and

22 Keraterm, until about the 15th of July [as interpreted], there was no --

23 there were no organised meals or food distribution by the administration,

24 and by this I mean the food distribution such as was in Omarska and

25 Keraterm which received some sort of a meal once a day. In Trnopolje,

Page 4173

1 there was no such thing.

2 I must also say that it happened several times that a soldier

3 would bring in meat, that was in the early days of the camp, would bring

4 in meat sent by Muslim civilians from the vicinity, and they simply

5 slaughtered their cattle and they brought this meat for the inmates in the

6 camp. That is true. But organised for distribution, food distribution

7 organised by the camp administration, no, there was no such thing. That

8 is not true.

9 Q. At any time during those days, is that your evidence?

10 A. During my stay in Trnopolje.

11 Q. I'd like you to look at this document, please.

12 MR. GREAVES: This document should not be put on the ELMO,

13 please. And if the kind gentleman in the technical booth could now lower

14 the ELMO because this is the last document I'm going to show.

15 Q. Witness Y, first of all, would you look at the top right-hand

16 corner of that document. Does it say there, "Trnopolje 10.09.92"?

17 A. It does.

18 Q. And does the -- by way of describing it, does it have a series of

19 columns and rows? On the left-hand side of the columns are a number of

20 columns which read -- one reads what appears to be "MRE," another is

21 "Lentils, oil, sugar, and flour"? And against lentils and sugar there's

22 the annotation "kg." Do you accept that?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. On the right-hand side are there a series of 21 or 20 names?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4174

1 Q. Do you see number 20?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. Don't read it out. But that's your name, is it not?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. And these, I suggest -- this is a record of food supplies given to

6 you and others, is it not? Half a kilo of sugar, half a litre of oil, 15

7 kilos of lentils, sometime around the 10th September, during your stay in

8 Trnopolje; isn't that right?

9 A. It is right, but let me just say that the International Red Cross,

10 on the 15th of August or thereabouts, registered all of the inmates in

11 Trnopolje and assumed the responsibility for the inmates' food. And this

12 list of men, these men were leaders or, rather, people who took over food

13 for some groups assigned to them.

14 So I repeat once again that was the food brought by the

15 International Red Cross in Geneva. This was not done by the camp

16 commander or anybody else there had a say in this.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. GREAVES: May that document also acquire an exhibit number,

19 please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be Defence Exhibit D27/1.

21 MR. GREAVES:

22 Q. Witness Y, it's right, is it not, that throughout your stay in

23 Trnopolje, many thousands of people left the camp and were taken out of

24 the area on conveys? Do you accept that?

25 A. Yes, deported.

Page 4175

1 Q. The process going on between mid-June and mid-August. Do you

2 accept that?

3 A. Generally speaking, yes.

4 Q. And, for example, mid-June, a thousand camp inmates taken on a

5 train towards Banja Luka? Subsequently 1.500 to 2.000 people transferred

6 by train, having only briefly been in the camp; end of June, convoy of

7 2.000 people in buses who were later put on a train to Doboj; 11th of

8 July, 4.000 people transferred away by train; 21st of July, people from

9 Hambarine, Rizvanovici, Carakovo, Zecovi and other Muslim villagers taken

10 away; mid-August, 700 people; is that right?

11 A. Well, figures are the subject for discussion. Nobody counted

12 them, but just the deportation, that is how it unfolded more or less.

13 Q. It's right, isn't it, that in evidence before previous hearings at

14 this Tribunal you've spoken about the subject of the rape of women at

15 Trnopolje? Do you recall that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is it your position that there were many hundreds of people raped

18 at Trnopolje?

19 A. You're taking words out of context, out of sentences. Many young

20 women and women, unfortunately, were raped or, rather, taken out of the

21 camp and raped, and many were raped in neighbouring houses.

22 I do not remember ever saying that it was a hundred, either in

23 interviews or in some conversations, but it is possible. But nobody knows

24 the exact figure.

25 Q. When you use the phrase "many," what do you mean by "many,"

Page 4176

1 Witness Y?

2 A. We -- I know specific days, dates when this happened to some young

3 women. We do not know all of them because not all the women reported

4 about this to us. We only heard about that from others, from family

5 members, friends, and so on.

6 Q. Now would you be so kind as to tell us the answer to the question

7 which I asked. What do you mean by "many"?

8 A. Many. I cannot -- I told you. I cannot give you the exact

9 number. "Many" means up to a hundred. That is my view.

10 Q. In fact, didn't you actually estimate it at being around 20?

11 Isn't that right?

12 A. Twenty whom we knew, from whom we heard it directly.

13 Q. Did you not say to Kari Seppanen, when you were interviewed in

14 March 1998, "I estimate that around 20 women detained in the camp were

15 raped"? Did you not say that to her?

16 A. Let me just digress for a moment. I cannot really remember the

17 question that that gentleman asked me earlier, which you again take out of

18 the text.

19 The fact remains that on the 14th of June, during the -- when the

20 tank drivers came, about 15 women were taken out that one night, and these

21 women were later in the neighbouring village. And they were sent for

22 gynaecological examination in Prijedor. When those transports were

23 leaving again many women were again taken out of the camp, out of the camp

24 directly, you know, and raped.

25 I don't know which date, which incident you have in mind when you

Page 4177

1 say "twenty." Not altogether. It does not cover the whole period of

2 time.

3 Q. I suggest to you that what you were asserting to Kari Seppanen in

4 March 1998 was a figure which represented all that you believe to have

5 happened in Trnopolje over the period you were detained in. Isn't that

6 right?

7 A. No, no, that is not right, no. No, that is not an assertion on my

8 part. I know that at different stages I spoke and divided those women who

9 were raped into those women who were taken out of the camp and raped and

10 those women who were in neighbouring houses and raped there. It can't be

11 20 altogether.

12 Q. Is it your position today, Witness Y, that there was a constant

13 killing and beating going on day in, day out, bodies all over the place,

14 in and out of Trnopolje during your period there?

15 A. Well, I am not going to say that it was a daily occurrence. That

16 would be an exaggeration by you, I did not say that. I said that people

17 were being taken out of Trnopolje. Some were killed in the vicinity.

18 Some were taken for interrogation in other camps. Some bodies we found

19 later on in the vicinity, about many we never learned anything. But there

20 were bodies lying about the camp every day, no, that I -- these are not my

21 words.

22 Q. You see, you know only of one person who died as a result of a

23 beating, don't you, a Mr. Sahbaz?

24 A. True. That person was -- that person died immediately after the

25 beating in the camp, in the camp itself, you know. I need to point this

Page 4178

1 out because that is very important.

2 Q. There are no other prisoners who died as a result of beatings

3 inside the camp, were there?

4 A. There are people who died in the camp itself as a result of, as a

5 result of the hard conditions and perhaps earlier beatings, because one of

6 them had been in Keraterm before he came to us and he died, you know.

7 Q. So you saw lots of people, did you, you saw them, who had died

8 from the bad conditions? Is that your position?

9 A. I said in my statement that I buried four men who had died in the

10 camp at Trnopolje itself.

11 Q. That wasn't the question that I asked you. Did you see lots of

12 people, tens, dozens, hundreds of people, who had died because of the

13 conditions in the camp, you personally see that?

14 A. No, not many. I said whom -- what I had seen because I buried

15 them.

16 Q. You saw three prisoners die because of the conditions, didn't you,

17 Witness Y? Isn't that true?

18 A. It is.

19 Q. Witness Y, what I suggest to you is this, that you, I think, give

20 quite a lot of or have given press interviews and television interviews

21 about your stay in Trnopolje, haven't you?

22 A. I did not give interviews in the press or to the television,

23 except for the footage by a team from Great Britain when they first

24 arrived in the camp, and that was publicly broadcast.

25 Q. You see, what I suggest to you is that the evidence which you have