Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4761

1 Thursday, 5 July 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

7 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

8 WITNESS: WITNESS DK [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Greaves: [Continued]

11 Q. Witness DK, you've told us, I think, of the assignment of Dusko

12 Sikirica to Keraterm. At that time, did Dusko Sikirica have any rank

13 above that of an ordinary reserve policeman?

14 A. No.

15 Q. At the time when he was assigned to Keraterm, what was the nature

16 of the function he was assigned to carry out at Keraterm camp?

17 A. It was not Keraterm camp. It was a collection centre, and Dusko

18 was the commander for -- of security at the camp. Sorry, not the camp,

19 the collection centre. Not the way you said it, "camp."

20 Q. And by commander of security, what did you understand he was being

21 told to do at Keraterm?

22 A. I don't know his exact -- what his exact duties were, but I think

23 he only was to oversee what the guards were doing, nothing else; in other

24 words, to control the work of the guards. At least, that is my view. I

25 have no other information.

Page 4762

1 Q. By work of the guards, can you say what you mean by that?

2 A. Whether they were all on [Realtime transcript read in error "all

3 their"] their job and how they were carrying out their tasks.

4 Q. And over the period that he was assigned to Keraterm, did he come

5 back to Prijedor II police station in order to see Zivko Knezevic?

6 A. If Zivko needed him or if Zivko called him.

7 Q. And do you -- were you present on any occasions when he came to

8 Prijedor police station in order to see Zivko?

9 A. I saw him a few times, and I was present once.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, just a correction to the transcript

11 at 9:36:54, "Whether they were all on their job." The word "on" is

12 omitted. Thank you, you may proceed.

13 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. I'd like you to look at a document, please, Witness DK.

15 MR. GREAVES: There are copies available, I'm happy to tell you,

16 for a change, in both French and English. That's an original in Serbian,

17 there's a translation in French and a translation in English.

18 Your Honour, these documents have originally appeared in an

19 as-yet-unnumbered exhibit which were produced by the Prosecution. They're

20 in a bundle, and they appear at 9394 and 95. The description given to

21 them in the Prosecution's bundle is this: It's a note compiled by Dusko

22 Sikirica, commander of Keraterm security, regarding Zigic, Zoran. There

23 are, in fact, three versions of this which were disclosed or were part of

24 that bundle. This is a copy of one of those, and it's the only one which

25 has got an additional piece of writing at the top.

Page 4763

1 Just the Serbian version, please, just the Serbian version for the

2 witness. No, just show it to him first, please.

3 Q. Witness DK, would you please be so kind as to look at that

4 document. Witness DK, it may or may not be that you've seen that document

5 before, but do you recall ever seeing that document before?

6 A. I don't remember ever seeing it, but I know that it is an

7 original.

8 Q. Did you ever see a document similar to that signed by Dusko

9 Sikirica?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And do you recognise his signature at the bottom of that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And just looking at the place where the signature is, does that

14 describe him as commander of Keraterm security?

15 A. "Commander of Keraterm Security," this is what is written here,

16 yes, Keraterm security.

17 Q. And the similar documents which you saw prepared by or sent by

18 Dusko Sikirica, did they have the same title attached to his name,

19 "Commander of Keraterm Security"?

20 A. I did not review that. We usually were focused on the contents of

21 any notes.

22 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. May that document acquire an exhibit

23 number, even though it's been produced as part of a Prosecution bundle?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

25 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I'm told it's

Page 4764

1 D40/1.

2 Q. Thank you very much, Witness DK. We have finished with that

3 document for the moment.

4 Witness DK, after Dusko Sikirica had been assigned to Keraterm,

5 did Zivko Knezevic go to Keraterm himself?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would he go regularly to Keraterm?

8 A. Whenever he wanted to, he went there. He did not have any

9 specific time. You could find him there at any time, day or night.

10 Q. And would he go daily or more than once a day?

11 A. He did not inform us on it. When he would leave the station,

12 sometimes he would go to Keraterm. Sometimes he went there to surprise

13 them, in order to see what they were up to.

14 Q. Can you help us about this, please: Do you know what the duty

15 hours of Dusko Sikirica at Keraterm were?

16 A. His duties were to control the work and to report on it at the

17 Prijedor II Police Station, about the work of the policemen. That's --

18 that was all.

19 Q. What I asked about -- just listen carefully, Witness DK. Just

20 think about the answer, please. I asked about what his hours were. In

21 other words, at what time did he start and what time did he finish?

22 A. He worked mornings, and I think 7.00 to 3.00, or maybe 6.00 to

23 2.00. That was approximately the hours.

24 Q. And as far as you know, was any authority given to Dusko Sikirica

25 concerning, for example, provision of food, provision of water, the nature

Page 4765

1 of the conditions at Keraterm, the administration of Keraterm, or the

2 logistics of Keraterm in any way?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you at this time hold the same rank as Dusko Sikirica?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. As far as you know, was Dusko Sikirica ever given authority to

7 initiate prosecutions of people who committed offences at Keraterm?

8 A. No.

9 Q. If you had been assigned as he was to that position, would you

10 have had any such authority, as a reserve police officer?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did Dusko Sikirica have any authority over the armed forces? In

13 other words, the army?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you aware of people being either released from or transferred

16 from Keraterm?

17 A. There were both types of cases, from what I heard. I personally

18 was not there, so I have no firsthand knowledge.

19 Q. I'd like you to look at two documents, please, Witness DK.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: I note that my friend on two occasions has referred

21 to this witness as Witness DK. Am I wrong or is he -- is this DK?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: It is DK?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry.

Page 4766

1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, these documents are not translated at

2 the moment. They are not easy to read but they are two documents which I

3 think this witness can identify and describe to you. They were -- one of

4 them was, I think, produced by Mr. Vucicevic when he was still here, and

5 I'm afraid the copies haven't come out very well when we photocopied

6 them. I'm sorry about the quality of the photocopying, but my main

7 purpose at the moment is to get the witness to describe what these

8 documents are, and in due course I'm going to try and sort out the quality

9 of the photocopying and the translations. But he was only shown them

10 recently and was able to identify them recently.

11 Q. Witness DK, first of all, I think you've got two documents in

12 front of you; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, have you seen documents of that type before?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you describe to us what exactly those documents are.

17 A. Yes. This document -- in fact, I was in charge of this document,

18 and it was used as a roster of police officers to their assignments. This

19 is a roster of police -- for police work for Prijedor II Police Station,

20 and one has to stick with this roster and this schedule. One was not

21 supposed to deviate. This is the roster of the police officers who went

22 to provide security for the bank, the post office, the hospital, and then

23 patrols that patrolled the streets, a list of the off-duty police

24 officers, of officers on sick leave, the roster of police officers

25 assigned to the physical security of the building. There should also be

Page 4767

1 the list of guards for Keraterm and so on.

2 Q. Now, you've told us about how rostering was done and who did it.

3 Are those the documents which were typed up by the secretary at the

4 instruction of Zivko Knezevic? Is that what they are, or not?

5 A. This document had to be signed by Zivko Knezevic in person by

6 hand, and then it would go to the typist and the typist would type up the

7 roster for the next day. One would be put up on a bulletin board where

8 the police officers, when they come back from their duties on that day,

9 could see where they were working the next day.

10 Q. Would you look, please, at the, at the second page of that

11 document at the bottom right-hand corner. Is there a signature there?

12 I'm sorry, the third page, I'm -- can you see a signature?

13 A. Yes, you are right. I did not see it. And that is the original

14 signature of Zivko Knezevic on both of these copies.

15 Q. And would it be from those documents that you would then go and

16 read to the assembled reserve police officers and tell them what their

17 duties were to be?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Help us about this: Would those documents be produced on a daily

20 basis or weekly basis or every other day? How would it be done?

21 A. On a daily basis.

22 Q. Could you look, please, through either of the two documents for

23 the Hambarine detachment, please. I think you may find it on the second

24 or third page at the bottom right-hand corner, bottom right-hand end.

25 A. I found it.

Page 4768

1 Q. Does that --

2 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours will find it, I think, on the document

3 which has three pages to it. There is a third page which has two columns,

4 and at the bottom of the right-hand column you will see a figure "16" and

5 next to it, somewhat indistinct but I think self-evident, "Hambarine."

6 Q. Witness DK, having looked at that section of it, can you tell us

7 why the names of those who were detached to Hambarine were not recorded in

8 the same way that it appears that other names are recorded for individual

9 posts?

10 A. They were not written down because of the -- simply that there was

11 no space. But of the 16 men who -- there was a list of 16 police officers

12 with their full names signed by Zivko Knezevic and it was kept in the

13 office; and when the rostering was done, in order for him not to write out

14 all 16 names every time, he would just say "Hambarine" and number 16 for

15 16 police officers which had been assigned to it.

16 Q. Could you, looking at that same page, please, look at the top

17 left-hand corner at the first set of names on page 3. Does that relate to

18 Keraterm?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And looking at the first page, can you distinguish a date on there

21 at all, Witness DK?

22 A. 5 or 6 June. Is that correct? 5 June.

23 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. I've finished with those documents,

24 Witness DK.

25 MR. GREAVES: Again, may those please acquire exhibit numbers,

Page 4769

1 Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, they may.

3 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

4 THE REGISTRAR: D41/1, D42/1.

5 MR. GREAVES:

6 Q. Witness DK, I now want to move on to an event which took place at

7 the end of July 1992.

8 MR. GREAVES: I wonder if the technical staff could lower the

9 ELMO. My view of the witness is obscured, please.

10 Q. Witness DK, we know from evidence that's been heard in the case

11 about an incident which took place concerning the killing of a large

12 number of people at Room 3 at Keraterm. On the night when that took

13 place, were you on duty at Prijedor II police station?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. During the course of your duty that night, did you receive

16 information that something was happening at Keraterm?

17 A. I didn't understand the question.

18 Q. Whilst you were on duty that night, did you receive information

19 from somebody that an incident was taking place at Keraterm?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was that in person or by telephone or by radio; can you recall?

22 A. By telephone.

23 Q. Who was it who informed you by telephone that an incident was

24 taking place?

25 A. The shift leader who was on duty that night.

Page 4770

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Page 4771

1 Q. Did you understand from that telephone call that there had been

2 shooting taking place at Keraterm?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As a result of having that conversation -- sorry, let me just go

5 back a bit. At this time when you received this call, was Zivko Knezevic

6 in Prijedor II police station?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was he doing? Was he working? Was he asleep? What was he

9 up to?

10 A. At that moment, he was asleep.

11 Q. Did he have a bedroom or a place for sleeping, a bed for sleeping,

12 set up for him in the police station?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As a result of receiving the telephone call about what was going

15 on at Keraterm, was Zivko Knezevic woken up?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you wake him or did somebody else wake him?

18 A. He was awakened by Zivko's assistant.

19 Q. And did you inform him of what you had been told?

20 A. I informed the assistant, who was the ranking officer that day,

21 and he woke up Zivko, because I did not dare wake him up.

22 Q. And did Zivko Knezevic get up and come and start to deal with

23 matters?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did he give any orders to you in relation to Keraterm?

Page 4772

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What orders did he give to you?

3 A. He told me to take a car and another two police officers, and that

4 then to go to Keraterm to see what was going on, and that he would follow

5 immediately.

6 Q. And did you in fact go to Keraterm?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Between waking Zivko Knezevic and you leaving for Keraterm, did

9 Zivko Knezevic give any orders that Dusko Sikirica be summoned or informed

10 as to what was happening?

11 A. No.

12 Q. When you arrived at Keraterm, where did you go?

13 A. I approached a group of policemen who were the security at

14 Keraterm.

15 Q. And who was it amongst those security policemen who first came to

16 your attention?

17 A. It was the shift leader, Mr. Dragan Kolundzija.

18 Q. And when he came to your attention, where exactly was he?

19 A. Nearby. That is, near the so-called weigh hut.

20 Q. And was he standing or was he lying or sitting? What was he

21 doing?

22 A. Well, he was crouching. He was a bit nervous. He was making a

23 lot of noise, crying out. I don't know how to explain all this.

24 Q. Take it in stages. When you arrived and you come to the weigh

25 hut, could you hear any shooting taking place?

Page 4773

1 A. Well, it was rather weak shooting, not too strong. I don't know

2 what happened before I got there, but when I arrived, it was sort of

3 sporadic, individual shots, not a burst of gunfire, if you see what I

4 mean.

5 Q. Was Kole saying anything about that shooting?

6 A. Kole asked where Zivko was, because he had promised to come and he

7 wasn't there. That's what he said. He said, "We have no control here, us

8 policemen. We have no control over the situation. The army did as they

9 pleased," so that he was completely impotent, wasn't able to do anything.

10 Q. Did he try in any way to get the shooting to stop?

11 A. Yes. He pleaded with them. He asked them to stop, entreated

12 them. He cried out. He said, "Please stop shooting until the commander

13 gets here." This didn't do any good. I tried to assist him to put an end

14 to the situation, but we had to withdraw and look after our own heads, our

15 own lives.

16 Q. Did you consider that you and your fellow reserve police officers

17 were in danger at that stage?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did Zivko Knezevic arrive eventually?

20 A. He arrived some 15 minutes after my arrival, and then he went up

21 to the commander, who was in charge of the army. I saw him when he

22 arrived. I don't know when he returned. But he didn't come up to us to

23 give us any support, moral support of any kind, or any assignments or

24 anything like that. He didn't comfort us. We just stayed there.

25 MR. GREAVES: May we just go briefly into private session,

Page 4774

1 please?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [Open session]

15 MR. GREAVES:

16 Q. Witness DK, after Zivko Knezevic had gone to speak to the

17 commander of -- who was in charge of the army, did you see him again at

18 all that night?

19 A. No, I didn't see him that night, until the morning, when light

20 broke, day broke.

21 Q. At any time whilst you were with him at Keraterm, did he call for

22 Dusko Sikirica to be summoned or tell anybody to inform Dusko Sikirica of

23 what was going on?

24 A. No.

25 Q. He gave you no further orders. Did you remain at Keraterm for

Page 4775

1 some time?

2 A. We weren't allowed to leave our posts until he told us that we

3 could move or if he personally came to fetch us and take us elsewhere.

4 Q. And when did you eventually move from your post?

5 A. In the morning at daybreak. I don't know whether that was half

6 past three, four, half past four, but at daybreak, anyway. It was

7 summertime, so that's when we went, and I think that daylight came at

8 about 4 a.m.

9 Q. At any time before that point, between your arrival at Keraterm

10 and leaving Keraterm, did you see Dusko Sikirica on the premises of

11 Keraterm?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you subsequently learn when Dusko Sikirica next went to

14 Keraterm?

15 A. In the morning, when he came to work to take up his regular

16 shift.

17 Q. Did you learn that as part of your official duties at Prijedor II?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know if he was permitted to enter Keraterm when he returned

20 that morning?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. After the incident at Room 3, was Dusko Sikirica removed from duty

23 at Keraterm at all?

24 A. Yes, he was.

25 Q. How soon after that night was he relieved from duty at Keraterm?

Page 4776

1 A. Well, I couldn't tell you exactly. Several days, perhaps.

2 Perhaps ten days. I can't really remember, but not long afterwards. He

3 didn't stay long until he was relieved.

4 Q. Where was he sent next?

5 A. He was sent to provide security for the hospital.

6 Q. And can you recall how long it was that he was assigned to that

7 duty?

8 A. You mean how long he was at the hospital, providing security?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. He did this work until he left to -- for the battlefront at Han

11 Pijesak.

12 Q. And can you say approximately when that was?

13 A. I think it was August or perhaps September. I can't quite

14 remember, but thereabouts. August or September.

15 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours would give me a moment, please.

16 [Defence counsel confer]

17 MR. GREAVES:

18 Q. Witness DK, does the name Marinko Sandzak mean anything to you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After the Room 3 incident, was he assigned to Keraterm?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And who was it who assigned him?

23 A. Mr. Knezevic, Mr. Zivko Knezevic, the commander of the Prijedor II

24 police station.

25 Q. And can you recall when it was that Marinko Sandzak was assigned

Page 4777

1 to Keraterm?

2 A. I think it was towards the end of August. I don't know exactly.

3 I think it was the end of August or perhaps July. I don't really know,

4 but after Dusko's shift, he went on. I didn't remember the dates. I

5 didn't ever expect anybody to ask me about dates, to tell you the truth.

6 But after Dusko's shift, Sandzak left the same day.

7 Q. I'd like you to look at some documents, please, if you would be so

8 kind, Witness DK.

9 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, these originally appeared as a bundle

10 of documents which were admitted - the registrar has got those - at the

11 request of the Prosecution, and they appear -- these are -- I'll just give

12 you the numbers, if I may. They appear and have the numbers in the column

13 to the left 8.8.6 to 8.8.11.

14 Q. Would you just look at those, please, Witness DK. I don't need

15 you to study them, but can you tell us, do those contain the names of

16 reserve police officers?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And are they reserve police officers who were stationed at

19 Prijedor II?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In the central columns, we can see some figures and then what

22 appears to be a location, for example, Celpak or so on. Can you tell us,

23 can you see your name, for example, on any of the documents?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Does it contain an indication of where you come from against your

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Page 4779

1 name?

2 A. All it says is my work organisation, the place I worked at.

3 Q. I see. And in the right-hand column, are there a series of

4 figures on each of the documents?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What do those figures represent?

7 A. These are salaries for the month of -- the month that the reserve

8 policemen spent working at the police station.

9 Q. And looking at each of the documents, I don't want you to identify

10 signatures against the salaries, but do the documents have any signatures

11 at the bottom of them; in other words, of somebody who compiled or

12 authorised the document? Can you see that anywhere?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And can you tell us which month that is for, looking at the front?

15 A. [redacted]

16 Q. And whose signature is the one who's authorising it?

17 A. Zivko Knezevic.

18 Q. Could you look at the other documents and see if you can see the

19 same signature giving the same authorisation, please.

20 A. There is a signature which isn't his, but he had an authorised

21 person who was able to sign for him.

22 Q. Do you recall yourself signing for your salary at that period?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And do you recall seeing this type of document before, during that

25 period, each month?

Page 4780

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Would you look, please, for example, at the list for [redacted]

3 Witness DK. Can you see your name there, I think at number ten? Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And we can see against your name what looks like 9.300; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is that a figure that is expressed in dinars?

10 A. It is, yes.

11 Q. And is that your monthly salary or a weekly salary or what was

12 it?

13 A. Monthly salary.

14 Q. The name above yours is what, please?

15 A. Dusko Sikirica.

16 Q. And does that have his signature on it, against his name and the

17 figure of money?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would you look, please, at the top three names in that list.

20 A. I see them, yes.

21 Q. Could you just first of all read out the three names to us,

22 please.

23 A. Ranko Jakovljevic, Rajko Plavsic, and Boro Grujic.

24 Q. Who were those three individuals? Were they reserve police

25 officers or regular police officers?

Page 4781

1 A. They were reserve police officers.

2 Q. And did they receive more money than you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were they senior in rank to you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us what rank they held, please?

7 A. Ranko Jakovljevic was the deputy commander, Rajko Plavsic was the

8 assistant commander, and Boro Grujic was once again assistant commander.

9 May I clarify another point? These are lists made up only for the

10 reserve policemen in the station, police station. There were some active

11 policemen whose names are not included on this list, but they also held

12 higher ranks than these ones here, than us.

13 Q. Who were the active policemen who were stationed at Prijedor II?

14 A. Well, I don't know all their names.

15 Q. Can you recall some of them?

16 A. Well, I don't want to say them publicly. Perhaps I could say them

17 confidentially, if I have to.

18 MR. GREAVES: May we go into private session?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4782

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7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, open session.

13 [Open session]

14 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. I've finished with those documents. I'd

15 like him now to see another set of documents which are what are described

16 in the Prosecution's list as 9.1 and 9.2, list of members of the Prijedor

17 Urije SDS in both Latin and Cyrillic.

18 JUDGE MAY: I have those.

19 MR. GREAVES: You've already got them. I'm grateful.

20 If you could show that to the witness, please.

21 Q. Witness DK, in 1992, were you a member of the SDS?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In the last couple of days, have you been shown copies of those

24 lists that I've been talking about, lists of members of the SDS?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4783

1 Q. Have you been able to go through those lists?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Have you marked on those lists, in orange marker, some names?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were those people whose names you have marked, were they members

6 of the SDS?

7 A. No.

8 Q. In particular, is it within your knowledge as to whether Dusko

9 Sikirica was a member of the SDS or not?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So that Their Honours may understand, can you explain how those

12 lists were compiled, with people who were not members of the SDS having

13 their names placed upon them?

14 A. These lists were compiled by a group of people who were in charge

15 of making lists of SDS members by the streets, each one having a street.

16 However, those people wrote down the names of the population of Serb

17 ethnicity without the presence of the people there. If they knew that

18 they were Serbs, they would write their names in on this list. But at a

19 meeting that was held in the local communities, these people, the people

20 that I jotted down with a felt pen, I never saw them attend those

21 meetings. I personally attended the meetings. I was there myself, but I

22 never saw those people attend meetings.

23 Q. And the other people whose names you've not marked, did you see

24 those attending meetings?

25 A. Mostly, yes, mostly. But the ones I was sure of I made a note of.

Page 4784

1 Q. Thank you. When you joined the SDS, did you have to sign any

2 documents or sign a register or contribute money or anything like that?

3 A. We had to sign up and pay our membership dues.

4 Q. Did you ever see the name of Dusko Sikirica in such a document?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness DK. Would you be so kind as to wait there and

7 answer any questions from my learned friends, please.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

9 Mr. Rodic.

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness DK, during your evidence you talked about

13 yourself and said when you were mobilised as a reserve police officer, and

14 you described how you worked as a shift leader at Prijedor II police

15 station; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you have in front of you a copy of roster for Prijedor II

18 police station for 5 June?

19 A. It was returned.

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have it again shown to

21 the witness, D41/1 and D42/1.

22 Q. Do you have in front of you the roster for the [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is your name -- does your name appear anywhere in rosters?

Page 4785

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us where in the roster and in -- under which rubric?

3 A. I had a day off that day.

4 Q. So you are under the rubric of off-duty?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Under numeral 1; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And in the roster for the 6th --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you direct us to the particular place in

10 the document that you're referring to?

11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What page, what page?

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] On page 1 of the roster for the [redacted]

14 [redacted] at the top you have the second underlined line. It is duty service,

15 1400 to 2200 hours, and at the right of that you have off-duty. Under

16 number 1 is [redacted].

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I now see it, yes. Yes.

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, will you now look at the roster for [redacted]

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour --

22 MR. GREAVES: Could my friend be careful about the naming of the

23 witness, please.

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Can it please be redacted where the

25 name of the witness was uttered?

Page 4786

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Page 4787

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it will be redacted.

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Witness, in the roster for [redacted] can you tell us what shift

4 you were in and where your name appears?

5 A. [redacted] I worked in the morning shift, 0700 to 1400 hours

6 or 6 to -- and I was again under number 1.

7 Q. And what was your duty?

8 A. It was the duties service -- duty desk.

9 Q. And was it 0600 to 1400?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I think that we have a better copy for the roster of the 5th of

12 June, so will you please go to that document.

13 Is it true that in addition to -- that next to your name there is

14 no post of duty added? It doesn't even list you as a chief of shift.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Among the duties at the Prijedor II police station, the first duty

17 is the duty desk, and it appears to be working in shifts of eight hours.

18 It consists of two police officers. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Below that in this roster you have an abbreviation "PBS." Does

21 that refer to the economic bank of Sarajevo?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then the next is the post office?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then on the bottom is the health centre?

Page 4788

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were the police officers who were securing all these facilities

3 listed by shift?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you also clarify for us on this first page, below the duty

6 desk and to the right of the abbreviation PBS, which is the bank, it says

7 "duty officer in charge," and only one name is listed.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Also the duty officer in charge on both these rosters only works

10 the morning shift?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was his role at that time?

13 A. It was a role of replacing Zivko so that Zivko could get some time

14 off, and he could issue certain orders without Zivko, if necessary.

15 Q. Can you now please go to page 2. This is for the roster of the

16 5th.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honours.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Is the first duty on the next page described as "patrol duty"?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Below that heading, to the bottom of the page and left-hand

23 column, is -- does it contain the list of all the street names; Zmaja

24 Jovanovica, Nikole Luketica, Slavka Rodica, Petra Kocica, Kozarska Street,

25 and the 29 November Street? Is that correct?

Page 4789

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the names of police officers by shift, are all these reserve

3 police officers who were patrolmen for that day?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On the same page, the second underlined line from the top, is that

6 the security of the police station building?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And which was secured by three police officers per shift?

9 A. That is exactly right.

10 Q. Is that specifically the security for your police station

11 building?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you write -- read out to us just the underlined parts of the

14 -- of this roster.

15 A. "The security of the building, security of persons, duty in the

16 building, security of Keraterm, 6.00 to 1400. Security of Keraterm, 1400

17 to 2200." And, "security of Keraterm 2200 to 0600 hours," and then at the

18 bottom, "off duty."

19 Q. Can you now please turn to page 3. Can you please read out the

20 first underlined line again. What was that duty? What does it refer to?

21 A. "Security of Keraterm"; is that right? Yes. "07 to -- 7 a.m. to

22 7 p.m."; is that right?

23 Q. Will you please look at -- just review the names from 1 to 12.

24 Don't have to read them out. The persons listed there, were these reserve

25 police officers who were part of that security detail?

Page 4790

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Under these 12 names, what follows?

3 A. Underneath, it says, "off duty."

4 Q. And then a list of 11 persons who were also part of Keraterm

5 security; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And further below, what is the next heading?

8 A. "Sick leave."

9 Q. With four names of police officers who were on sick leave?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What is the next heading?

12 A. "The security to the hospital."

13 Q. And this, according to the list, there were three police officers

14 assigned to the -- to security of the hospital per shift?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The next underlined duty, what does it state?

17 A. "Drivers on duty."

18 Q. And below?

19 A. "Truck driver."

20 Q. And below that?

21 A. "Bus driver."

22 Q. Excuse me. Now, turn to the right-hand column, top to bottom.

23 A. "Readiness, 6 to 1400, 14 to 2200, and 2200 to 0600." And then

24 below that, I think it's "off duty." Then listed under number SJB, that's

25 a police station, and then "Palancista," and then the checkpoint at

Page 4791

1 Garevci, Cirkin Polje, Hambarine. That's correct.

2 *** Cannot distinguish between Q and A ***.

3 Q. And below that, is it the officer for equipment and supplies?

4 A. I know that he existed but I don't know, I can't read it.

5 Q. Is that Bozo Savic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The copy doesn't read very well, but it says "typist" underlined

8 and then it says Biljana Zrnic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And below that, "administrative, Milenko Popovic"?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. "Assistant commanders, Boro Grujic, Dragoljub Mudrinic"; is that

13 all correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. "Deputy commander, Ranko Jakovljevic"; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And it's signed by commander Zivko Knezevic, and it's signed. Is

18 that his signature?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please tell us, while you worked at the Prijedor II Police

21 Station when you were mobilised as reserve police officers, did this type

22 of roster have to be posted every day so that everybody knew what their

23 duties were?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can we please just go back to page 3 for a moment and focus on the

Page 4792

1 Keraterm security for a moment. Next to the 12 names listed as Keraterm

2 security police officers, did any of them have any ranking position?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Had anybody had any ranking position among these men, would that

5 position have been listed, such as a system commander, deputy commander,

6 duty officer in charge, or something like that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell me, did you know Damir Dosen, called Kajin?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us in some detail how you knew him.

11 A. Mr. Damir Dosen was a younger generation, close to the age as my

12 children, maybe a year or two older. So they socialised a little bit, so

13 I knew him through them.

14 Q. While you worked at Prijedor II police station, was Damir Dosen a

15 reserve police officer assigned there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If I'm not mistaken, you said that you were a carpenter by trade;

18 is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it true that you never underwent any police training, any

21 course for police work?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. And do you know about Dosen?

24 A. No police -- no reserve police officer had any training or had

25 undergone any courses for that type of work.

Page 4793

1 Q. Thank you. What I would like to know now is whether you remember,

2 during the period that you worked in the shifts that you worked, would

3 it -- did it ever happen that Damir Dosen called the police station, and

4 if he did, that he called -- that he asked for anyone?

5 A. I recall that, during my shifts, he called two or three times and

6 he asked for Zivko Knezevic. I don't know if I should go further into

7 describing what happened.

8 Q. Please do.

9 A. He asked for Zivko, whether Zivko was there. I put him through to

10 Zivko Knezevic. On one occasion, he was not there, and I said, What kind

11 of a message do I need to transmit to Zivko, and he said that individuals

12 were coming, soldiers, that they were provoking there, and that he wanted

13 to report that. And that is the contact that I had with him.

14 Q. Tell me, did it ever happen that other guards from Keraterm called

15 you and asked for the commander and had similar complaints?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was this a frequent occurrence?

18 A. It depended on situations. While I was on duty, any guard could

19 have called -- could call me. There was ...

20 Q. Let me now ask you about the night of the incident in July. You

21 already stated that the commander Knezevic sent you to -- had sent you to

22 Keraterm and that you returned from Keraterm around dawn. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Before you went back to the station, did Zivko again come to

Page 4794

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Page 4795

1 Keraterm?

2 A. Yes. He sent me there. Before that, I was not allowed to go

3 back.

4 Q. Did he tell you to go back to the station, and when he told you

5 that, did he tell you that you were now free, or what?

6 A. He said that we should go back to the station and that we should

7 wait there until he returned.

8 Q. When you left to go to the station, did Zivko stay behind at

9 Keraterm?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell me, at what time approximately did Zivko come back to

12 the station?

13 A. Approximately at 12.00. He was angry, and he said, "This shift

14 can go home," and it was only then that we went home.

15 Q. Did he make any comments about the incident in front of you?

16 A. He said, "Nobody is to talk about this. I'm going to deal with

17 it."

18 Q. I have just one other thing, if you know. In respect of all

19 members of the Prijedor II police station, and I primarily have the

20 Keraterm security in mind, did anybody have any ranks, any real positions

21 that would distinguish them from others?

22 A. No.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

24 examination.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

Page 4796

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness DK, can you look with me at page 3 of the

3 document D41/1. In the third column, you were referred to the number 16,

4 which is beside Hambarine, and you indicated that this represented the

5 number of, the number of men who were assigned to Hambarine, although not

6 named.

7 Above that number, you have a series of other numbers; 8, 5, 5, 4,

8 and 12, which makes a total of 50. How would those 50 men know that they

9 had been assigned to the particular localities if they were not named?

10 A. They had, had an order. Each of these groups, 12, 4, 5, 5, 8,

11 they had separate orders. They were not under obligation to show up at

12 the police station, but this was just the roster of names kept on at the

13 station. They were, they were outlying locations within the Prijedor II

14 district. This was outside of Prijedor II, but it was also serviced by

15 Prijedor II, but -- so in order for them not to have to come to the police

16 station, it was only kept on file there.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did I understand you to say that in respect of

18 each assignment, there was a separate order? To whom did that order go;

19 to each individual who was assigned?

20 A. As a group.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: So in respect of Hambarine, it would go to whom?

22 There are 16 -- there's the number 16 here, which means that 16 persons

23 were assigned. To whom would that order go in respect of Hambarine, or

24 where would it go?

25 A. It was on file, the typist who compiled rosters, and it was not

Page 4797

1 distributed individually.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: That file was kept at the station?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right, thank you.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies. In respect

6 of just what you asked, I overlooked to ask two very brief questions, if I

7 may.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic: [Continued]

11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness DK, very briefly, please, is it true that

12 in the mornings you had roll-call of police officers on the basis of this

13 roster and controlled whether they all showed up to work and to their

14 respective shifts?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were policemen who were working as Keraterm security to come for

17 the roll-call to the police station before setting off to Keraterm, or was

18 this done in another way?

19 A. They went straight to Keraterm. They did not come to the station

20 to see me.

21 Q. Is that true, then, that when they were going to work and when

22 they were coming back from their shifts, these police officers were not

23 under obligation to report at the station for roll-call?

24 A. They just went to their regular shifts. Only if they were sick or

25 something they would call in. But Zivko would occasionally go over there

Page 4798

1 to check on them.

2 Q. If they needed days off, to whom they would turn to ask for such

3 days off?

4 A. To Zivko.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

7 Sir Ivan.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence:

9 Q. Witness DK, you told us that you were an ordinary reserve police

10 officer called up to do national service?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. A volunteer or a conscript?

13 A. A conscript.

14 Q. And you had no rank?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And is it right that Kolundzija, Kole, was in exactly the same

17 position as yourself in that regard?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So he, like you, was an ordinary, reserve policeman, a national

20 serviceman, a conscript, with no rank and no training?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And no special authority vested in him?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And no power, except like everyone else in that position, the

25 power to complain to Zivko Knezevic if he didn't like something; is that

Page 4799

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you and he have to obey orders?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If you didn't obey orders coming to you from Zivko Knezevic, what

6 would happen to you?

7 A. We would have been thrown out of the police force and sent to the

8 front, to the army. And at that point, when you were kicked out of the

9 police, you would be sent to the worst part of the front line, which at

10 that time was at Vozuca.

11 Q. And would that effectively be because you were disgraced if you

12 were thrown out of the police force?

13 A. That's exactly right.

14 Q. If you were sent to the front, what would your life expectancy

15 be?

16 A. It would depend on luck.

17 Q. Luck, whether you were killed or not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So that was the kind of control that Knezevic, in the name of the

20 police force, had over a guard, whether he was a shift leader like

21 yourself and like Kole, or not? He had that kind of control and

22 discipline over you? Is that the position?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And Zivko Knezevic could send you to do a variety of duties. Your

25 duty was in the police station, but there were duties patrolling Prijedor?

Page 4800

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Guarding the bank?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The hospital?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Or any of the municipal institutions?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And one of those tasks was Keraterm?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Which people didn't like very much?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. Because a lot of the people who were in Keraterm were friends of

13 the reserve police officers in Prijedor?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So as a shift leader, is it right that Kole would have had no

16 powers to order food for the camp?

17 A. No authority whatsoever.

18 Q. Or mattresses or blankets or mend the toilets or make the

19 electricity work or provide water pumps? A mere guard, even a shift

20 leader, had no such power; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who was responsible for the day-to-day operation of Keraterm? Who

23 would have such power to order food and mattresses and mend the toilets

24 and see that the water worked properly? Who was in control?

25 A. Zivko Knezevic.

Page 4801

1 MR. LAWRENCE: I see the time, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We are at the break, Witness DK. We will

3 break for half an hour. We will resume at 11.35. During the break, you

4 are not to discuss your evidence with anybody, and that includes the

5 members of the Defence team.

6 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.38 a.m.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Sir Ivan.

9 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness DK, you had just told us that the guards or the shift

11 leader of guards had no power to order improvement of the conditions in

12 the camp, so was the procedure this, that if a shift leader felt that the

13 camp needed more food or more water or more medical supplies, they would

14 contact Zivko Knezevic?

15 A. They didn't even dare propose that, as far as I know.

16 Q. But that's all they could have done?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then it would have been up to Knezevic to order supplies from

19 whatever source, from the army or the hospital or the local authority; is

20 that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You've told us that all the shift leaders could do is to complain

23 to Knezevic. Were you present on, I suggest, three occasions when Kole

24 complained to Knezevic about shortages, about outsiders coming in to the

25 camp and causing trouble? Three occasions I'm suggesting in which you

Page 4802

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Page 4803

1 were present when such complaints were made? Would that be right? You

2 nod. Can I have an answer, please.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you remember an occasion when Kole got very angry with Knezevic

5 and Knezevic said, "No one will pull guns on the military under any

6 circumstances"?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. "You can try to talk them out of it, but under no circumstances

9 must weapons be used"; there was such an occasion that you recall, yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember an occasion in June, before Kole became a shift

12 leader, when he complained to Knezevic, actually in the office, he came

13 down to the office and complained, about guards like Banovic who were

14 coming on to the camp and attacking detainees?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And was Knezevic's response, "Discipline is my job, not your job.

17 Get back to Keraterm"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember in the course of complaining, on this or other

20 occasions, Kole saying that he wanted to be sent somewhere else, not

21 Keraterm --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- because he couldn't carry on working in a place like that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And was Knezevic's angry reply, "Yes, we will send you to the

Page 4804

1 battlefront"?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And was Kole being quite brave in arguing with Knezevic?

4 A. Well, yes, he was brave, but to no avail.

5 Q. Did Knezevic say to Kole that he would be a shift leader, and it

6 was up to him to persuade the guards to behave properly? Do you remember

7 such a conversation?

8 A. Well, I don't remember exactly in those words.

9 Q. But do you remember a time when the two-shift system became a

10 three-shift system?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And was that the time that Kole became a shift leader?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you remember another complaint after he became a shift leader

15 that Kole made to Knezevic -- no, I'll rephrase that. After he became a

16 shift leader, did you -- were you present or did you hear Knezevic saying

17 that he didn't want families to be allowed to bring food into the camp?

18 Do you remember that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you present at that conversation with Kole?

21 A. I heard about it. I wasn't present. I -- that is to say, I was

22 nearby and I heard it.

23 Q. And was Kole arguing with Knezevic about that decision of

24 Knezevic's?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4805

1 Q. Do you remember hearing or it being brought to your attention that

2 Knezevic's objection to the families' bringing in food was that they could

3 bring in weapons in their bags and there could be an incident?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is it right that Kole argued with him and Knezevic relented

6 and said, "All right, but the bags must be searched"?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could Kole have done any more, in your view, than he did --

9 A. No.

10 Q. Wait until I finish the question, although you anticipate it very

11 sensibly. -- to have relieved the problems and the conditions of the

12 detainees at Keraterm in his discussions and complaints with Knezevic?

13 Could he have done more?

14 A. He could not have done more than Zivko allowed him to. At his --

15 on his own initiative, he could have been humane and helped that way.

16 Q. To be fair to Knezevic, he was going along to some extent with

17 Kole's complaints about the food, was he not? And it was after that that

18 he appointed -- or he asked Kole to be a shift leader and to do what he

19 could? Is that right?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Knezevic didn't say, "I'm fed up with you. Get out to the

22 front." He kept him around. But Kole was always putting pressure on him;

23 is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you now tell us something about the relationship between

Page 4806

1 reserve policemen and soldiers? Did reserve policemen have any authority

2 at all to issue orders to the military?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Why was that?

5 A. Because the military had its own command and the police had its

6 own command.

7 Q. And if Kole, as a shift leader at Keraterm, had ever said to

8 soldiers on the camp, "Do this or do that," what do you expect would have

9 been the response by the army?

10 A. Quite normally, of course, they wouldn't listen to them. They

11 wouldn't obey.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness DK, Mr. Ryneveld is on his feet.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I appreciate that this is in the form of

14 cross-examination, although it is a way in which frankly, perhaps, they

15 ought to be examining in chief. That's another issue. With respect, the

16 type of question now being put to the witness is so far in the realm of

17 speculation that I object to it.

18 MR. LAWRENCE: Well, would the court hear me on that?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

20 MR. LAWRENCE: Firstly, the Prosecution has also involved, because

21 it's the nature of the case, in a fair amount of speculation and

22 inferences which they say could be drawn from actions. And secondly, all

23 this matter arises as an issue in the case, and out of the kind of

24 evidence which this witness can give. He was in much the same position as

25 Kole, as a shift leader, and would, in a sense, be an expert on the

Page 4807

1 activities of shift leaders in the Keraterm situation.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the circumstances, we think he can answer it.

4 He himself is a [redacted] and he can speak to the kind of relationship

5 between the reserve policemen and the army.

6 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm obliged.

7 Q. Very briefly, can I just move on to another matter. You were

8 shown a copy of a guard roster and you were asked questions by Mr. Rodic

9 and also by Mr. Greaves about the roster. Was this a roster typed out by

10 Milenko Popovic, who was the typist, that one you were shown, D41/1? Was

11 he the gentleman who typed it, Mr. Popovic?

12 A. He could have typed it and the other lady typist, I've forgotten

13 her name, so either of the two could have typed it. If she wasn't there,

14 he would do the typing.

15 Q. Thank you. And so what you would do is you would look at it,

16 check it, and then put it up on the board, presumably?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can I now move to the night of the 24th of July. Is it right that

19 you first knew that anything was happening at Keraterm when Kole spoke to

20 you on the telephone?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did he tell you that the army had opened fire on detainees?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And that the army were out of control?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4808

1 Q. And he needed advice and help immediately?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That he had to speak to Knezevic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And was he obviously very, very anxious and worried?

6 A. Who do you mean; Kole or Knezevic?

7 Q. Well, Kole first.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was Knezevic woken up?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did he speak to Kole who was holding on, on the phone?

12 A. I think he did, yes.

13 Q. And did Knezevic tell Kole to remain at his post?

14 A. Yes. I heard him say, "Stay there. Assistance is on the way, and

15 I'm coming, too."

16 Q. He said that he was coming himself? You heard him say that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then I think Knezevic ordered you and two others who were on

19 duty to quickly go up to Keraterm and see what you could do?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I have their names, but I won't give them because it means going

22 into private session, and it probably doesn't matter.

23 And did Knezevic tell you that he was coming up immediately

24 himself?

25 A. He told me to go there. He said, "Go there to Kole, and I'll

Page 4809

1 catch up with you." He didn't issue any other assignments after that, he

2 just told me to go and be with Kole.

3 Q. How far was the camp from your office?

4 A. I think it was about 1500 metres, thereabouts. I can't say

5 exactly.

6 Q. And you got into a vehicle, car, did you, and drove up?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you were obviously very alarmed yourself?

9 A. Of course I was.

10 Q. And when you got there, you found Kole by the weigh hut?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Screaming out to the soldiers to stop shooting?

13 A. He entreated them to stop shooting.

14 Q. I think you said in evidence "pleaded" with them to stop shooting;

15 is that right, and shouting at them? Screaming at them you said, I think?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you have to calm him down?

18 A. At that moment, I tried to calm him, but he didn't even look at

19 me, he was so angry. And afterwards when we saw each other, he said

20 let's -- I said, "Let's try together," but it was unsuccessful.

21 Q. When Kole first saw you, did he ask you where Zivko was because

22 Zivko had promised to come?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did he tell you that he had no control over the army and what

25 they were doing?

Page 4810

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Page 4811

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And were the army appearing to pay the slightest attention to Kole

3 screaming or shouting at them?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Could either Kole or you or the two other officers that went with

6 you have done anything more to stop the soldiers?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What would have happened if you'd have started running up to the

9 soldiers and trying to pull them away from the guns or whatever it is they

10 were doing? What do you think would have happened?

11 A. First of all, there were ten times more of them than there were

12 us. Secondly, it was night-time, you couldn't see properly. And how can

13 you run in front of weapons? Everybody looked out for themselves, to

14 protect their own lives.

15 We did what we could. We called out to them, shouted to them to

16 stop. We begged them to stop. That's all we were able to do.

17 Q. And if you'd have gone up to them and got in the way, what do you

18 think would have happened to you?

19 A. Probably a stray bullet would have hit me, like the rest.

20 Q. Did you see Kole shoot at anyone with his rifle?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you hear Kole encourage any soldiers to shoot at anyone with

23 their guns?

24 A. No.

25 Q. At all times, what was it Kole was trying to do with the soldiers

Page 4812

1 when you were on the camp and shooting was still going on, even

2 sporadically? What was he trying to do?

3 A. He was begging them to stop, and when the shooting stopped, when

4 it was quiet, you could hear him call out to the people coming out of the

5 room, to come and say why they were coming out, something like that.

6 Q. How long after you arrived at the camp did Knezevic arrive?

7 A. Fifteen minutes later.

8 Q. And what did Kole do the moment that Knezevic arrived?

9 A. He -- Kole didn't see him then.

10 Q. When he did see him, did you see Kole speaking to Knezevic?

11 A. He didn't speak to him.

12 Q. Did he go up to Knezevic and do something?

13 A. Kole didn't even see Knezevic come in. Knezevic went in and went

14 to the commander of the army.

15 Q. At some stage, perhaps it was after he'd spoken to the commander

16 of the army, is that when the shooting stopped, when Knezevic spoke to the

17 commander of the army?

18 A. At that particular moment, there was no shooting. As soon as he

19 left, the shooting started up again.

20 Q. Before Knezevic left, did you see Kole go up to Knezevic and do

21 something?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Well, can I suggest to you that he threw his rifle down at him, at

24 his feet? Do you remember that?

25 A. That was in the morning. That was in the morning, at daybreak.

Page 4813

1 Q. I see. I'm sorry, then I've misunderstood the timing of it.

2 Knezevic came back later, did he, on to the camp?

3 A. Knezevic came back to the camp in the morning, at about 4.00 a.m.,

4 perhaps half past 4.00, when it was already day, and that was when Kole

5 saw him.

6 Q. And were you present when Kole spoke to him then?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what did Kole do, firstly?

9 A. Kole went up to Knezevic as soon as he came out of the car. Kole

10 came there, straight away, he asked him, "Where were you up to now?

11 You've only just arrived. Look at what's happened. Somebody has to be

12 held accountable for that." He threw the rifle in front of Zivko. Zivko

13 turned to me and ordered me to go to the police station.

14 Q. At any stage, did Kole give you the impression that he wanted

15 shooting to have taken place, or that he was encouraging shooting, or that

16 he was sympathetic to shooting, or that he was --

17 A. No.

18 Q. -- unable to stop the soldiers shooting?

19 A. I'm not quite clear now. I knew that he didn't like it. He

20 wasn't in favour of it. And had he been able to prevent it, he would have

21 done so.

22 Q. Do you know what happened, what happened to Kole after that day?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. [Previous translation continued}... when he was on duty or not?

25 You can't help?

Page 4814

1 A. He was not scheduled to be on duty.

2 Q. Ah. Well, then you can help. When was he next scheduled to be on

3 duty; can you remember?

4 A. The 26th or 7th, thereabouts.

5 Q. Do you know whether he actually --

6 A. Two days later.

7 Q. Do you know whether he actually did return for duty two days later

8 or not?

9 A. I think he did, but I don't know for certain.

10 Q. You don't know?

11 A. I think he did.

12 Q. He didn't, in fact, I suggest, come back on duty until the 29th or

13 the 30th of July. Can you help about that at all?

14 A. I cannot say exactly. I know that there was a break. I thought

15 it could have been a couple of days. Maybe it was longer. I don't know

16 exactly.

17 Q. Did you know that he went to Belgrade?

18 A. I don't.

19 Q. And would you necessarily have known that?

20 A. I could have known that only from a private conversation with him,

21 but not officially.

22 Q. And of course, if he wasn't there, you wouldn't have had a private

23 conversation with him over it.

24 A. Of course.

25 Q. No. Just finally, will you tell us what you knew about Kole.

Page 4815

1 Apart from what you've told us, did you know Kole before the war?

2 A. I knew him before the war, even though he was younger. We did not

3 socialise, but I did know him.

4 Q. And after the Keraterm incident, was there a lot of talk amongst

5 people who had been at Keraterm about Kole?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. From what you yourself knew about Kole and supplemented by what

8 other people may have said to you about Kole when this was a matter of

9 discussion, what do you say of Kole's character?

10 A. I could tell you quite a bit about it, the things that I knew

11 about him in those years, things that I have heard about and things that I

12 know myself, so you tell me which part you want me to talk about.

13 Q. Well, when you say you heard about, heard about from people who

14 knew him?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And people whose opinions you would respect and rely upon?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And from your own knowledge and experience of him. Well, I asked

19 you about his character. Can you say something about his character?

20 A. In brief, he was a -- Kole was a peace-loving man.

21 Q. And was he a kind person or a rough person? What was -- what do

22 you say about that?

23 A. He was a nice person, sociable. He was always surrounded by

24 friends. Everybody liked to socialise with him. He was an athlete. And

25 he didn't say anything bad about things, and everybody wanted to be around

Page 4816

1 him in order to learn something that was right, not something that was

2 stupid.

3 Q. Did you ever see him do or talk nastily about anything or anybody?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did he differentiate in matters of friendship between Muslims and

6 Serbs?

7 A. Kole never differentiated between Serbs and Muslims and Croats.

8 He had a truck and he had a private hauling business, and he provided

9 services to private parties and to the state firms and made no distinction

10 between various groups or party affiliations.

11 Q. Did you see anybody who had anything to do with Keraterm who had a

12 bad word for Kole?

13 A. Whomever I met, I mean of the people who were at Keraterm,

14 everybody said that during Kole's shift, a person who was at a collection

15 centre was able to go home and to wash up, to take a bath. They could

16 make phone calls to the family. They could get food or medicine, if

17 family members brought it to the Keraterm. He even took them to a well.

18 There was a well nearby, about 500 metres, so he would take a group of

19 people to get some fresh, cold water during the summer so that they could

20 drink it.

21 On one occasion as a [redacted], while I was on duty, I was to

22 distribute, distribute cigarettes to all members of the police, and I

23 went, took a driver and went to give cigarettes to the Keraterm security.

24 And when I arrived there, I saw this: It was summertime, and I don't know

25 how to refer to the people who were detained at Keraterm. They were not

Page 4817

1 detainees; they were in the collection centre. They were on the grass.

2 And when I came to the weigh hut to hand out cigarettes, Kole went over

3 there and made everybody get into Rooms 1 and 2, and he was telling them,

4 "Go in. The military are coming." There was a military passing by, and

5 Kole made them go inside.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

7 A. Well, that's exactly what I'm trying to say, so that the military,

8 the soldiers, would not see them out there, and shoot at them.

9 Q. And of all the people that you spoke to or came to the police

10 station to talk about this incident, was there anybody that said Kole had

11 ever done them any harm?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were there those people who said that he'd saved their lives?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.

16 Mr. Ryneveld.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. Excuse me one moment,

18 please.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

20 Q. Witness DK, just a quick question: Do you now or did you ever

21 have a nickname?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, sir, was there a time that you had duties when you were a

24 police officer that one of your duties was to round up Muslims or

25 non-Serbs from their homes and take them to the police station, Prijedor

Page 4818

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Page 4819

1 II?

2 A. No.

3 Q. No? Sir, from the documents we've seen, I think you probably

4 agree with me that [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sir, do you recall an incident -- what were you doing exactly on

8 the 22nd of June, 1992? Were you not involved at that particular time in

9 the rounding up of Muslims?

10 A. I don't know about the date. We went to provide assistance. We

11 were assisting those who were going out to arrest people, and Zivko sent

12 us all to assist them. But as I understood you to have asked me when you

13 made -- asked the first question, that was not my duty as a shift leader.

14 We were just assigned to it to provide assistance occasionally.

15 Q. Is it safe to say, sir, that when you were on duty, that various

16 individuals who were collected were brought to the police station where

17 you were?

18 A. Occasionally.

19 Q. And on occasion, you knew those individuals, did you not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In fact, some of the people that you used to work with in the same

22 company may have been brought to the police station?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Might I go into closed session for the next

25 question?

Page 4820

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

2 [Private session]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25

Page 4821

1 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe we can go back into open session.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Open session.

3 [Open session]

4 MR. RYNEVELD:

5 Q. In any event, sir, the incident that I'm talking about, I suggest

6 to you that on the 22nd of June, you actually went to the front yard of

7 his house. Do you remember that incident?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you brought some documentation to this individual and you said

10 something to the effect of, "You have to sign something. It's going to be

11 a working duty at the company." Do you remember that?

12 A. I brought an order from the station and I told him that he -- "You

13 have to go to the centre for some interview, some interrogation," not a

14 work duty. That is a mistake.

15 Q. All right. So you disagree about the exact words you told him,

16 but it's clear that you were there to pick him up and bring him back to

17 the police station, and you told him that the purpose was for him to sign

18 something?

19 A. Not exactly to sign. I didn't say that. I can say "yes" or "no"

20 but -- maybe we would move faster but I can tell you what the real truth

21 is. I had an order to bring him in. I knew where he lived, and I told

22 him - and I spoke very mildly with him - "You have to go to the station.

23 Come in the car." He got in and he said, "What is this about?" And I

24 said, "I don't know. Maybe --" "Was it anything to sign?" And I said,

25 "I don't know. You'll see." And I took him to Centre I.

Page 4822

1 Q. And the vehicle that you had was sort of a paddy wagon. I believe

2 it's known as a Marica or something; is that right?

3 A. It was a Ford vehicle, white in colour. It was not a police van.

4 It was a civilian vehicle that belonged to Prijedor II station, a van.

5 Q. And you in fact did take him to the police station, and you've now

6 told me it was Police Station I you took him to, or did you take him -- to

7 which of the two police stations in Prijedor did you take him?

8 A. To the Prijedor I Police Station in the centre of town. That is

9 what the order for the remand stated.

10 Q. And when you brought him to the police station, you left him in

11 the corridor for some time, did you not?

12 A. No. Let me explain this. That was not my duty. My duty was to

13 bring him to the duty officer at the station, and then I left. And where

14 he waited and how long he waited, that I did not know.

15 Q. Now, did you know a member of the reserve police by the name of

16 Zlaja who was also there?

17 A. I cannot recall who was with me at that time.

18 Q. In any event, did you know an individual by the name of Zlaja?

19 A. I did not.

20 Q. Sir, from your recollection, I suggest to you that you were told

21 to take him to the detention unit, were you not? You were told to take

22 this individual whose name I gave to you earlier, the gentleman who you

23 had collected from his home, you were told to take him to the detention

24 centre. Isn't that not true?

25 A. Whom are you referring to?

Page 4823

1 Q. We have talked about an individual who you knew at whose home you

2 collected and you brought him to the Prijedor Police Station. That's the

3 person I'm talking to. Did you then take him to the detention unit?

4 A. No.

5 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that in fact you arranged for the reserve

6 police to form a gauntlet and had this individual run through that

7 gauntlet while he was being beaten. You organised that, did you not?

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right. Sir, were you -- did you hold a position with the SDS

10 party?

11 A. No.

12 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 A. No.

15 Q. Are you sure of that, sir?

16 A. Officially, no. I know I have heard that I have -- that I was

17 proposed, that I was proposed for that. I was -- but I was too busy. I

18 didn't have enough time to do that.

19 Q. Well, sir, [redacted]

20 [redacted] were you not?

21 A. The local commune informed me that I have -- that my name was

22 tabled, but I was never a member of that group.

23 Q. Did you sort of take the position that you would refuse the

24 nomination, and if elected, refuse to serve? Is that the kind of thing

25 you're telling us now, sir?

Page 4824

1 A. What I'm trying to say is that I did not reject this, whatever you

2 call it, the nomination, but I said that I could not hold both positions

3 in the police and discharge that duty. I was fairly engaged in my shift

4 duties.

5 Q. Well, sir, I suggest to you that, in fact, you were quite proud of

6 the fact that you were the -- held this position, were you not?

7 A. A person should be proud if somebody nominates him for some

8 position. It means that he has shown certain worth.

9 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that you in fact prepared at some point a

10 handwritten document wherein you basically acknowledged the fact that you

11 were a member and held that position; isn't that true?

12 A. I don't remember that.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me one moment, Your Honour. I'm looking for

14 a document. Excuse me.

15 Unfortunately, I do not have English translations of this

16 document, but I'm going to ask that it be put to the witness and perhaps

17 he can tell us what it says.

18 MR. GREAVES: May we have copies, please.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: That was the intention.

20 Q. I'm just waiting, sir, while everyone gets their copy. It's

21 written in your language, sir. And first of all, can you tell us what

22 this document is entitled? What is this document? What is it? First of

23 all, is this a list of the members of the SDS for Prijedor in Cirkin

24 Polje?

25 A. [redacted]

Page 4825

1 [redacted]

2 Q. Yes. And do we have a date, sir?

3 A. There's no date here.

4 Q. Is there a year?

5 A. 19 -- May 1991.

6 Q. Thank you. And I'm not putting this document on the ELMO for

7 obvious reasons. Would you look at the -- there's a list of names, and

8 the third name down, do you recognise that name?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is that your name?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is there also a function written behind that name?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what would that be?

15 A. Well, I couldn't actually say what it was because I didn't perform

16 it. [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that document be marked as an exhibit in

24 these proceedings, please.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it will be marked.

Page 4826

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Page 4827

1 MR. RYNEVELD: And of course, Your Honours, I apologise that

2 there's no translation, but this just arose and we have not had time.

3 That is in the works, both in English and French, and that will be

4 available, hopefully, soon. I just -- cross-examination, one never knows.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.

6 What is the number?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 55.

8 MR. RYNEVELD:

9 Q. Now, sir, so you now acknowledge that the [redacted]

10 [redacted] is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to show you another document, if you would,

13 please, but just before I do, [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted] Were you part of that plan?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You didn't get any order from the president of the SDS, for

19 example, to organise residents and prepare for the takeover of power?

20 A. No.

21 Q. If anyone were to suggest that, that would be absolutely wrong; is

22 that correct?

23 A. I don't know who could have ordered that to me. I didn't quite

24 understand your question, actually.

25 Q. Well, in fairness to you, sir, I'm going to rephrase it because I

Page 4828

1 suggest it's important that you listen to my question exactly.

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 A. No.

6 Q. And you're as sure about that as you are the rest of your evidence

7 today?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we can avoid that, Mr. Ryneveld.

9 A. Correct.

10 MR. RYNEVELD:

11 Q. All right. I do intend to show you another document at this

12 point.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: I have something that appears to be handwritten,

14 and its number is, for the reference, 0037850, which is the ERN number,

15 Your Honour. And we also have a draft translation into English which was

16 done. It is not an official court translation. We have not had time, but

17 we've had language assistance give us a very quick draft translation in

18 English. And again, needless to say, translation has been formally

19 requested into both English and French.

20 Q. Witness, you are now being handed what appears to be a copy of a

21 handwritten document. Just before you read the document, would you look

22 down at the bottom. There appears to be a signature. Do you recognise

23 that as your signature?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting as your handwriting?

Page 4829

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So for the purposes of my questions now, you accept that this is

3 your document, something authored by you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us, do you -- I'll give you an opportunity, in

6 fairness, because it's just been handed to you. Would you just look at

7 this for a moment and have a quick look at it, and then tell us, if you

8 can, how it was that you came to write this document.

9 A. May I just read through it to remind myself of it?

10 Q. That's what I'm inviting you to do, sir.

11 A. I have read it.

12 Q. Do you remember when and why you wrote it?

13 A. I can't remember exactly when, but we took -- took down some

14 particulars, that is to say, some particulars were required and we wrote

15 something down. But I can't remember what purpose this was written for.

16 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you some general questions, sir, and

17 in order to avoid going into closed session to protect your identity,

18 please accept some of my generalisations for the benefit of keeping your

19 identity a secret.

20 In any event, sir, would you accept that this is a form of a

21 curriculum vitae or a resume of yours?

22 A. I don't know what to say exactly. Everything that I wrote down

23 here, I wrote them -- I wrote what I should write.

24 Q. Yes?

25 A. And they told me what I was supposed to write down, and that's

Page 4830

1 what I wrote.

2 Q. Oh, I see. So this was dictated to you and you just signed it, is

3 that it? You're just following orders?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I see. This is not you writing out a little brief resume of your

6 qualifications and life history and submitting it to someone?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Well, sir, let's just look in about the -- oh, these are dots, so

9 one, two, three, four, five, the sixth dot down -- sorry, let's move to

10 the seventh dot. I suggest to you that it, roughly translated, says that,

11 "After that," referring to number 6, which is your participation in the

12 war between given dates, at a particular location, you "were moved back to

13 the local commune, Cirkin Polje, following the order of the President of

14 the SDS, and we started to organise the residents and to prepare the

15 takeover of power." Do you see that?

16 A. I can explain that, explain it better to you, the document.

17 Q. I will give you the opportunity to do that, sir, but first of all,

18 answer my question. Do you see that reference there?

19 A. That's what it says, yes.

20 Q. Yes. Not only does it say that, but it's in your handwriting and

21 signed by you.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And this is the exact language that I put to you that you denied

24 moments ago. Yes?

25 A. The time when this was written is essential. That's the essential

Page 4831

1 point, the time. And I would like to explain that to you. This was not

2 written in 1991. This was written in 1995, when the Dayton Accords were

3 signed.

4 Q. Sir, my question to you earlier did not have a date, if I recall.

5 I think I asked you if you were ever ordered to do that, and you said no.

6 How could that happen?

7 A. Everything I said stands. These are the particulars written down

8 in 1995 or 1996, after Dayton had been signed. And let me explain

9 everything that it says here, if you will give me the opportunity of doing

10 so.

11 Q. I will give you the opportunity, but I have a couple of other

12 questions first. And that was -- please correct me if I'm wrong, but when

13 I asked you earlier about this document, you said that you didn't recall

14 it and you didn't recall when or under what circumstances it was written.

15 But now suddenly, when pressed, you do recall that it was written in 1995

16 or 1996. Why do you now recall when you didn't moments earlier?

17 A. I don't recall having signed this at all, but reading through the

18 contents of it, I remember it now.

19 Q. You offered to explain. I told you I'd give you the opportunity.

20 This is it.

21 A. First of all, let me explain about what it says here. It says, "I

22 was withdrawn afterwards to the local community of Cirkin Polje, following

23 orders by the President of the SDS, and we started to organise the

24 population and preparations for the takeover of power." This particular

25 sentence is the truth, and as I'm going to tell it to you now. After

Page 4832

1 coming back from the Slavonian battlefront, not only myself but the other

2 fighters, many other fighters, we were withdrawn to the police station of

3 the reserve police force. While the active-duty policemen and their

4 command structure undertook the takeover of power, while they were doing

5 that, we were providing security for the police station and the other

6 parts of town. And we learnt of this after the takeover of power. But

7 before that, before the takeover of power, we did not know that this was

8 being organised. We did not know that this was being prepared. Does that

9 make this sentence clearer to you now? Have I managed to explain the

10 meaning of that sentence to you now?

11 Q. Sir, you offered an explanation. The meaning of the sentence was

12 very clear right from the start. What you're saying in this document,

13 that you started to organise the residents and to prepare the takeover of

14 power, that is in advance of it happening, correct?

15 A. When I was writing these particulars, I asked them what they

16 wanted me to write, and I was told to write it this way. And then we

17 learnt afterwards what the leadership had been doing. I didn't know what

18 they'd been doing beforehand. So that is higher politics for me. I don't

19 enter into that realm.

20 JUDGE MAY: Witness DK, when did you write this document?

21 A. I wrote this document when I was demobilised.

22 JUDGE MAY: Sometime in 1995; is that right?

23 A. Thereabouts.

24 JUDGE MAY: What was the purpose of writing the document?

25 A. Well, if you will believe me, I don't actually know what this

Page 4833

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Page 4834

1 document was used for, what its purpose was, because whatever the

2 participants in the war were asked to do, or participants in the police

3 force, probably something to do with the local community or the MUP or the

4 military department. I can't remember who asked me to write this

5 particular passage down. And I have explained, and you can see for

6 yourself, participation in the war and in the police force, and later on,

7 when I left the police force, right up until the time of mobilisation. I

8 could not have written this in 1991, quite naturally. I could not have

9 done that then.

10 JUDGE MAY: And apart from the sentence you've been asked about or

11 the passage you've been asked about, is the rest of it all correct and

12 true?

13 A. As far as participation goes in the war and in the police force,

14 and later on after the war I was promoted to the rank of sergeant; that's

15 true. And I have just explained to you when I was supposed to write this

16 down, I wrote what I knew.

17 As for the procedure of takeover of power in Prijedor, I think

18 that it is clear to you now that we reserve policemen, reserve police

19 officers and ordinary soldiers were not informed of that.

20 JUDGE MAY: Witness DK, I want you to concentrate, if you would,

21 on the document, and help me with this so we can understand what you say.

22 How did the passage that you have been asked about, about the takeover,

23 how did that come to be written by you?

24 A. They asked me to write it down, to say where I was during the war.

25 JUDGE MAY: Who asked you to write it down?

Page 4835

1 A. Well, if you -- believe me, I don't know who asked me. I can't

2 remember actually writing this. I know that it's my handwriting and

3 signature, but I can't remember the reason they asked me to write this.

4 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

5 MR. RYNEVELD:

6 Q. Do I understand you correctly, sir, that others forced you to

7 write this and told you what to say?

8 A. They didn't force me. I asked -- and looking at this piece of

9 paper, I don't know the purpose this was written for. I asked them what

10 they wanted me to write down, and I can see that from the context: The

11 profession, where I was working, in the Javor company from 1982 and still

12 working there; my participation in the war, on the 25th of September,

13 1991, up until the 20th of December, 1995, I was at the Slovenia

14 battlefront.

15 Q. Sir, before you say too much about the details, I've been avoiding

16 referring to the specifics because I don't want to assist in identifying

17 you. You've been protected.

18 So the question is, they didn't force you, but you did write it at

19 their request, and you decided what to write down; is that right? This

20 was -- you decided what to write once they gave you an idea as to what

21 information they were looking for?

22 A. Probably.

23 Q. You don't remember who "they" are?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. So if you can't remember the incident, you can't remember who it

Page 4836

1 was, how is it that you remember that you were told to write this by

2 "they"?

3 A. Well, I know what I think, what I do. But as I say, I don't

4 remember what purpose this was written for, whether my work organisation

5 had asked for something like this or somebody else, whether it was the SDS

6 that asked me for it or perhaps the army, the police force. I really

7 can't say.

8 Q. Just two more questions about this document. Is it the truth?

9 Do you want me to repeat the question? Is what you wrote in this

10 document the truth? Yes?

11 A. Well, it's the truth.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. Can I explain? It was --

14 Q. You have.

15 A. As I say, this was the truth that -- all right.

16 Q. Now, sir, I just want to move on to a different topic, if I may.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: And I note the time. I'll try and handle this area

18 in the next few minutes, if I may, Your Honours.

19 Q. Sir, counsel showed you some documents which had names of

20 individuals, the areas where they used to work, and salary structures. Do

21 you remember being shown a series of documents?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And in particular, they singled out one document which had three

24 individuals at the top with, shall we say, a different salary figure than

25 the balance of the names in the list. Do you remember that?

Page 4837

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I'm going to invite you now, if you would, please, to look at some

3 of the additional documents my friends introduced, and could those --

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry, do Your Honours still have those

5 available? In particular, I'm looking at a document with an ERN number of

6 01048582, and it appears to be attached to another document. I'm trying

7 to find out what the date on this is. It looks like July of 1992, but the

8 photocopy sort of cuts off half of the line. Could be June, could be

9 July. I'm having difficulty reading that. Perhaps my learned friends

10 from the other side can assist.

11 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm afraid I can't. I haven't got a copy of this.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have additional copies for counsel?

13 MR. RYNEVELD: These were introduced by Defence counsel. I'm just

14 referring to their documents, but I may have some copies of a similar

15 nature.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, I think we'll take the adjournment

17 now.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Then I can be organised with this issue and

19 have copies available for Your Honours at 2.30.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness DK, we will adjourn for an hour and a

21 half. We'll resume at 2.30. During the adjournment, you are not to

22 discuss your evidence with anyone, and that includes the members of the

23 Defence.

24 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.

25

Page 4838

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld?

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Now, Witness, just before the break, I was about to put some

5 documents to you, and before I do that, I'm going to ask you some

6 questions. Sir, as I understand your evidence, you were in fact selected

7 and, to use your language, [redacted]

8 [redacted] is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And there would be a chain of command, would there not be, sir?

11 You had people that you reported to? And you've told us about that.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. [redacted]

14 [redacted] That is the structure. It's a

15 sort of semi-military type of structure, is it not?

16 A. No.

17 Q. [redacted] sir? Did it not mean that

18 these people would be responsible to you for their conduct, et cetera?

19 A. No.

20 Q. [redacted]

21 A. I was staying in the station and the policemen were outside. They

22 went out of the station. And I did not exercise control over them.

23 Q. But you would go to the, for lack of a better expression, the

24 morning muster, you would tell them what their duties were, you would tell

25 them who had to go where? I understand that information came from another

Page 4839

1 source, [redacted] weren't

2 you?

3 A. Every policeman became familiarised with the schedule previously.

4 I would just put plus or minus, which signified their attendance, and I

5 would report on that to the commander.

6 Q. My question is simple. [redacted]. That's your

7 expression; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. [redacted] you told the men what their

10 responsibilities were, did you not, every morning?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You read out what their responsibilities were?

13 A. They knew their assignments, based on the schedule, on the roster

14 that had been previously drafted, as I explained. I don't know what else

15 I need to clarify.

16 Q. So as I understand your evidence, you were totally superfluous; is

17 that it? You had no real function there at all?

18 A. You could say that, in terms of the duties, but somebody had to be

19 around.

20 Q. And when they reached a problem, they would be phoning you; isn't

21 that right?

22 A. Yes. All information during my shift, complaints of citizens, I

23 had to note down to report on it to the superiors, and they went about

24 solving the problem.

25 Q. You were the conduit through which problems in the field were

Page 4840

1 communicated to your superiors?

2 A. Yes, in my shift.

3 Q. And if there was clarification necessary by your superiors as to

4 what happened, they would go to you and ask you to contact these people,

5 to give further reports?

6 A. I didn't understand the question.

7 Q. Let me rephrase it. You communicated upwards as well as

8 communicating downwards; is that true?

9 A. The information I received I would note down on a paper. If there

10 is an address, a name, this is what I would note down, and then I would

11 leave it on the commander's desk if he's not there. If he -- I would

12 inform his deputy, and my presence, my further presence was not needed

13 because I needed to stay with the communication equipment.

14 Q. I'm going to move on, sir. In any event, sir, counsel put to you

15 a document which indicated a salary schedule. Do you remember looking at

16 that earlier for one of the months?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the first three names appear to be receiving more by way of

19 remuneration than the rest. Did you see that? Do you recall that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That wasn't always so every month, was it, sir?

22 A. It was always so.

23 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that the seniority or the rank one had or

24 the official designation had absolutely nothing to do with the

25 remuneration. Would you agree with that?

Page 4841

1 A. No, I don't agree.

2 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that there were salary schedules

3 published on a monthly basis, and people would have to sign for those?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let's look at the month of May of 1992, shall we?

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Now, Your Honour, I'm choosing not to deal with my

7 learned friends' documents. I prefer to -- we've got our own set of

8 documents, and they have been previously marked. I'll give you the

9 reference, as the first one for May I believe was 8.8.7, but I propose to

10 give you a fresh copy of it just for ease of reference.

11 We have copies both in B/C/S and an English translation. There

12 are names and signatures and letters. I believe it's self-explanatory. I

13 do not know the present status of the French translation, but I think it's

14 very, very readable in its present form. Does the Court have copies?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we were just given copies.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

17 Q. Sir, would you agree that we are now looking at a document which

18 appears to be the list of reserve militia's members for pay of 1992? Is

19 that a document you're looking at? And in the B/C/S version --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In the B/C/S version that I'm looking at, there are some 283

22 names, looking at the last page, and it's signed by the -- by Zivko

23 Knezevic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. Look at the first three names, sir, and that would be

Page 4842

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Page 4843

1 the first -- the same three names as in the previous document, if I

2 remember correctly; Ranko Jakovljevic, Rajko Plavsic, and Boro Grujic.

3 They're all getting 49.000 dinars; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you see your name at number 11? And again, I'm not going to

6 read that, for protection purposes. Do you see your name there, number

7 11?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You got the same amount as those other three individuals, didn't

10 you? Nodding your head, meaning?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Number 10, above your name, that's Dusko Sikirica?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. He got 49.000 as well?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And it appears that all of you seemed to have worked 26 days of

17 that particular month, correct? Well, the names we've just mentioned.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And where there is a difference in pay -- for example, number 18,

20 he worked two days less than everybody else, so he got a little less

21 money, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when we browse through the rest of the list of names, page

24 after page, everybody, up until page 6, at least in the English copy, is

25 working 26 days and making 49.000 dinars. Would you agree with that?

Page 4844

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And thereafter we have lesser amounts which correspond with fewer

3 days worked, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So, the top three people, that you say, are making the same as the

6 rest of you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. It's quite clear they had authority, didn't they?

9 A. They had the same position from day one, but let me explain it to

10 you a little bit. That was the first salary. In the police, we all

11 received the same amount, in order not to make any distinctions in

12 personal remuneration. And later, it was all changed, either publicly or

13 it was done surreptitiously, in whatever way.

14 Q. Well, let's look at the next month. Let's look at June, shall

15 we?

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Here is some English and there is the B/C/S. And

17 for the record, I'm now referring to a document previously filed as

18 8.8.8. This copy is being distributed again for ease of reference.

19 Q. Sir, the process here should be fairly easy because it's the same

20 as last time. We are now talking about a similar list but dealing with

21 the month of June of 1992, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the difference here is that we have the name of the work unit

24 now assigned; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 4845

1 Q. And again, we see that the people who worked 26 days of that

2 particular month were now all making the same salary of 7400 dinars, which

3 includes the top three people, and includes you and Dusko Sikirica at

4 numbers 10 and 11 -- I'm sorry, 9 and 10?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when we look on the last page at number 126, we see that a

7 Dusan Fustar received the same amount of money, correct? You see the last

8 page, number 126?

9 A. 126?

10 Q. I'm looking at the English translation.

11 A. That's another name.

12 Q. Okay. Could be that I have directed you to the -- no, 126, 126,

13 Fustar, Dusan, 7400. You see it?

14 A. I don't have that number. That's not 126.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Could we please see the copy that the witness has?

16 Is the witness the only one with -- it's a document which relates to June

17 of 1992.

18 Q. Is that the first page, 1? And if we now turn to page numbered 4,

19 which is -- yeah, the fourth page in that set of documents, there is a

20 number 126, with the name -- how are we doing? Got the same page?

21 A. Yes, yes, I found it.

22 Q. Oh, good. Now, sir, can you agree with me that he got 7400?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And if we look up to 119, we see Dragan Kolundzija, 7400?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4846

1 Q. All right. And so the following month, everybody is still making

2 the same amount of money, is that right, if they worked 26 days?

3 Correct? Nodding your head?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I don't know if it's significant, but do you happen to know why

6 you made so much less in June than you did in May? It's not that terribly

7 significant but I am curious, why did you get 49.000 in May and only 7400

8 in June?

9 A. It depended on -- the inflation was huge, so they just gave us

10 enough to survive. It depended on the value of the dinar at the time.

11 Q. And you say that all this changed later, did it, the way in which

12 money was given to people? That changed?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Well, let's have a look at September. Is this what you're talking

15 about, sir, that that changed by September? And we have got the first

16 three people in that list making slightly more than the balance of the

17 employees, of the police officers. For example, number 1 is making

18 21.410, number 2 is making 18.556, and number 3 is making that same

19 amount, and then we drop to 16.082 for everybody thereafter who worked the

20 appropriate number of days. Is that what you're talking about, sir, in

21 fairness to you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. And sir --

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, by the way, Your Honours, this I believe was

25 8.8.11, for reference.

Page 4847

1 Q. And you're listed at number 10 in this document?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Mr. Sikirica is number 9?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in September, he appears to have worked only eight days; is

6 that right?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Well, opposite his name there is a number of days, eight, and then

9 Celpak. He only worked till the 9th of September, right?

10 A. I see it here, but I don't know anything about it.

11 Q. Number 118 - you have to flip a few pages to get there - is Dusan

12 Fustar?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Number 120 is Dragan Kolundzija?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. There's yet another list. In any event, sir, it's clear from this

17 that the reserve policemen, the reserve policemen, regardless of their

18 function, were making the same amount of money, weren't they?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So their salaries had nothing to do with their authority?

21 A. Among us, we did not have any authority, and there was no

22 difference among us.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Now, just as a housekeeping matter, the -- what I

24 referred to as the CV earlier, before lunch, could that be given an

25 exhibit number before I forget.

Page 4848

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Do you have a number, Madam Registrar?

2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 56.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Perhaps we should just have the numbers for the

4 other documents that have been used, the various salary lists.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Earlier, Your Honours, my understanding --

6 the documents I've just provided are additional copies of documents

7 earlier entered, just because we don't have all our bundles of documents

8 with us. The first one I outlined was May, and that was 8.8.7, which has

9 already been entered; June was 8.8.8; September was 8.8.11.

10 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, there is a difficulty over this

11 numbering. That is numbering assigned to these documents by the

12 Prosecution in their list of it. These documents have not been assigned

13 an exhibit number as yet by the registry.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, in that case, they should be because we

16 want, as I said at the very beginning, an integrated list.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I was labouring under the false impression

18 that the documents which we submitted and tendered had been admitted. I

19 take it that's true, but they simply haven't been assigned court numbers.

20 Could I perhaps make a motion whereby those documents do receive

21 appropriate numbers?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

24 Q. All right. Sir, I believe in evidence you told us that you and

25 Mr. Sikirica joined Prijedor II at about the same time; is that correct?

Page 4849

1 That was your evidence.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that you may be mistaken in that. In fact,

4 Mr. Sikirica joined the Prijedor II station in December of 1991. Would

5 you know about that?

6 A. Yes, but at that time there was no Prijedor II station in

7 existence. There was only Prijedor I.

8 Q. I see. So he was a policeman since December of 1991 but didn't

9 become a Prijedor II policeman until the same time you did; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. [redacted]

15 [redacted] is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And would it be safe to say that Mr. Sikirica in his previous

18 life, in his civilian life, it was well-known that he was also a leader, a

19 shift leader at his former job? Would that be something that you would

20 know about?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You don't know that? You don't know, then, that the reason he was

23 selected is because perhaps they knew he could supervise men?

24 A. It wasn't supervisor. He was a deputy of a certain commander of

25 the station, and I was proud of him. It was very easy for me to work with

Page 4850

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Page 4851

1 him.

2 Q. Now, I think you gave evidence, sir, about Mr. Sikirica's duties

3 and when he was on and when he was off. For example, after Hambarine, you

4 said that he had a day or two off. Back in 1992, sir, I suggest to you

5 that that was not a particularly significant event in your life for you to

6 remember. Isn't that true?

7 A. It was the job I did there, and of course I knew who was with me.

8 It wasn't difficult for me to remember that.

9 Q. Sir, nine years later, for you to be asked about who was on duty

10 and who was off duty from all these lists of men and all their days, how

11 is it that you could recall that he had a couple of days off after going

12 to Hambarine?

13 A. Well, I do know. I was reminded of it. That is to say, I thought

14 back and then knew who my deputy was and looked through all my shift, and

15 I do know that. I remembered it.

16 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that your memory may have been refreshed

17 by suggestions from someone on the Defence team that -- whether or not you

18 recall something happening about, and given a certain time frame and

19 whether or not that could be true? Is that -- is that a fair way to say

20 that your memory may have been refreshed?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Well, when were you first asked to think back nine years ago to

23 who had what days off?

24 A. I know, judging by myself. That's why I can't actually give you

25 any specific dates, but I know how the whole thing went. I can remember a

Page 4852

1 month or the time of year, but of course I can't give you any exact dates,

2 so I can't say -- give you any exact dates or times or things like that.

3 I would have to think very carefully for me to attempt to do that. But

4 what I'm doing is trying to tell the truth and to think back.

5 Q. Sir, my question - and I'll repeat it because I don't think you've

6 come anywhere near attempting to answer it - was: When were you first

7 asked to think back nine years ago to who had which days off? Is that

8 question clear?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would it be a matter of months ago?

11 A. In January, I think.

12 Q. And is it safe to say, sir, that you did not have access to those

13 records yourself?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 THE INTERPRETER: "No" is the answer, sorry.

16 MR. RYNEVELD:

17 Q. Is it your evidence that you're relying solely on your own

18 memory?

19 A. Yes, with the help of some colleagues whom I naturally asked to

20 remind me of some things so that I could know and refresh my own memory.

21 Q. Were you assisted at all by members of the Defence team to provide

22 you with documents or suggest certain time frames for you to look --

23 commence your search or to focus your attention?

24 A. Well, cooperation and agreement existed but they couldn't get to

25 anything precise unless I told them some things.

Page 4853

1 Q. So you remember that Dusko Sikirica had days off around the time

2 of Hambarine, but you can't remember writing your own CV; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Well, I don't remember.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. Well, you're right to ask me.

7 Q. Sir, another thing you said, I believe you were telling my learned

8 friend about an instance when Zivko Knezevic spoke to the team, and I'm

9 not quoting directly from the transcript, merely my own handwritten note

10 and it can well be imperfect, but something along the lines of, when he

11 was referring to -- he said, "Sikirica, with this group to Keraterm," and

12 I think you used the words, "Didn't need any explanation." Do you

13 remember telling us something about that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do I -- am I fairly close in my recollection of what you said,

16 that Zivko Knezevic said, "Sikirica and this group to Keraterm?" Is that

17 more or less what it was?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did you understand that to be Sikirica and his group of people

20 that had been with him in Hambarine at the checkpoint, the 16 or so that

21 you talked about?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So it's safe to say, sir, that Mr. Sikirica was singled out by

24 name, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4854

1 Q. It wasn't "your group" and named 16 men of which Sikirica was one;

2 it was "Sikirica and this group," right? He was clearly their leader, was

3 he not?

4 A. Well, out of respect, he probably designated Sikirica to head the

5 group, to escort them, so he designated someone.

6 Q. Respect for the fact that this man was in charge; isn't that

7 right?

8 A. He relied on Sikirica for Sikirica to be able to, if somebody

9 didn't turn up or somebody did something, to convey that to him, to report

10 back to him, and he had respect because Sikirica was an honest man. That

11 was the reason.

12 Q. Now, sir, you were asked about what else Mr. Sikirica was told,

13 and I believe, and again I'm relying only on my written note so I

14 apologise if I'm not completely word-for-word accurate, but something to

15 the effect that he told Sikirica to secure Keraterm, right?

16 A. Keraterm was already secured with two shifts. Those people were

17 overburdened with work. So he sent them to ease the shift, to have three

18 shifts and make it easier to work, easier for them to work.

19 Q. Sir, let's get back to what I was after, and that is at the time

20 when he said Sikirica and his group to go to Keraterm, the duty -- they

21 were told that they were to secure Keraterm, that was the function that

22 they were being told that they were being expected to perform, as opposed

23 to going to Hambarine and running a checkpoint, correct?

24 A. The checkpoint didn't exist any more, and that is why they were

25 designated to provide security at Keraterm.

Page 4855

1 Q. All right. But in the last part of your answer -- okay.

2 Now, you're not suggesting to this Court that you were always

3 present during instructions or conversations between Dusko Sikirica and

4 Zivko Knezevic, were you?

5 A. [No translation].

6 Q. You weren't on duty 24 hours a day?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You weren't privy to every conversation?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You do tell us, I believe, in response to a question, that

11 Sikirica would report to Knezevic as and when required. I don't think

12 those were the exact words, but when he was asked to or when he had

13 occasion to report to him. Isn't that true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And of your personal experience, you know of at least two or three

16 situations where Dusko Sikirica had contact with the man in charge of the

17 Prijedor II police station. Isn't that true?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Knezevic was Dusko Sikirica's superior.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. There is a reporting relationship between the two of them?

22 A. Zivko was not responsible to any one of us in the Prijedor II

23 police station. He was only responsible to the centre and the chief of

24 the centre, the chief of MUP.

25 Q. Let's focus on the other aspect of my question. Dusko Sikirica

Page 4856

1 was reporting and receiving instructions from, reporting to and receiving

2 instructions from Zivko Knezevic.

3 A. He had no instructions, Mr. Sikirica. As I said, he worked in the

4 morning from 0600 to 1400 hours. During that time period, the

5 investigators were in Keraterm as well, and Dusko was there. Officially

6 speaking, I can't say what duty he was performing. Just as you said that

7 I was useless in my post, I suppose he was the same in his, or

8 superfluous, whatever.

9 Q. Sir, you don't know from your personal experience what Dusko

10 Sikirica and Zivko Knezevic spoke about on all occasions, do you?

11 A. I know the position of Dusko Sikirica. It wasn't -- I didn't need

12 somebody to tell me what he discussed with Zivko. All he could do with

13 Zivko was to complain to him if somebody came from outside and engaged in

14 provocation of any kind; otherwise, he had no other competencies or

15 authority. Zivko didn't let anybody talk to him about anything --

16 Q. Witness --

17 A. -- like I myself.

18 Q. Witness, you had nothing to do with Keraterm camp until you were

19 asked to report there on the 24th or 25th of July. Is that fair to say?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So you personally have no idea. You're only guessing about the

22 reporting structure. You don't know what the two talked about, do you?

23 You're just guessing.

24 A. That is your opinion. May I explain something to you?

25 Q. I'm going to move on, sir.

Page 4857

1 MR. GREAVES: No, he wants to explain his answer. That's not a

2 fair way for him to be dealt with.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: This is cross-examination, I might suggest. It's

4 in the Court's hands. I don't propose to --

5 MR. GREAVES: I don't think I ever cut off a witness who sought to

6 explain something.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll have the explanation now, Witness DK.

8 A. I wanted to say to you -- although I'm a little disconcerted with

9 this misunderstanding that has taken place between the Defence and the

10 Prosecution, what I wanted to tell you was this: Our positions and the

11 implementation of our duties, I was at my work post or Dusko Sikirica in

12 his own work post, all -- we could have been replaced every day or

13 transferred to from one post to another. We didn't -- we weren't able --

14 we didn't dare discuss that too much. We couldn't act at our own

15 initiative.

16 All I can say is that Zivko Knezevic himself would come to

17 Keraterm whenever he felt like it. In the police station, he was in

18 command of us. He had his associates. He was responsible to the MUP

19 chief for his own actions. And I'm sorry that I am not -- don't seem to

20 be able to explain, and we haven't got enough time, but please believe me

21 when I explain to you the kind of position we held there. We were

22 servants, workers. We had to execute what we were told to do; otherwise,

23 our lives would be threatened had we not done what we were told to do.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have the explanation.

25 Mr. Ryneveld.

Page 4858

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Page 4859

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

2 A. I don't see any need for all this.

3 MR. RYNEVELD:

4 Q. Sir, at the beginning of proceedings today, in response to

5 Mr. Sikirica's counsel, you were -- made it clear that you didn't like

6 Keraterm being referred to as a camp. You wanted it called the collection

7 centre. Why is that? It was a camp, wasn't it, for detainees?

8 A. As far as I know, it was not a camp. It was a collection centre.

9 There were people of Bosniak ethnicity who came there themselves. Nobody

10 needed to force them there. They were fleeing from the army to find

11 protection there with us policemen. And they were secure, safe there with

12 our guards, except in some cases when some soldiers might turn up and

13 enter into provocations, but we tried to suppress that as far as possible.

14 But our heads were on the line, too, for us to be able to do that. We had

15 to put our lives at risk as well.

16 Q. So in your opinion, sir, this was a safe haven, a place of refuge

17 for people where they sought to flee from the, from the army; is that

18 right?

19 A. Precisely so.

20 Q. Yes. And it would be wrong to leave the impression that these

21 people were rounded up at gunpoint and herded and beaten and taken to

22 Keraterm and kept there against their will. That would be a wrong

23 impression to leave. That would be a camp, wouldn't it?

24 A. There were -- perhaps some of the soldiers did bring people in

25 that way as well. I'm not very well informed of that. But some people

Page 4860

1 came alone. Nobody had to force them because they felt safer there.

2 Q. And certainly people weren't beaten there, I take it?

3 A. The police didn't beat anyone.

4 Q. The guards didn't. The guards were police, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was Banovic one of the reserve police officers?

7 A. He was.

8 Q. He certainly wouldn't beat anyone; he's a policeman.

9 A. I cannot guarantee for each and every man. I personally did not

10 see anything. I heard some rumours, but what I don't know for sure I

11 cannot say with certainty.

12 Q. Sir, you know absolutely nothing about what went on at Keraterm,

13 do you?

14 A. I was personally not there. I just heard people talking about

15 it. Sometimes an extremist would turn up and there would be an incident.

16 Q. Sir, let's move on to something that you do purport to know

17 something about. You say that, in your impression -- I believe this

18 morning some of the first words out of your mouth were that Dusko Sikirica

19 was the commander of security at Keraterm. You said that, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when asked to explain those duties, you said to control the

22 work of the guards, that they were all on the job and how they were

23 carrying out their tasks. Isn't that one of the explanations you gave?

24 Again, this is my own handwritten notes. Right?

25 A. I said that. Let me explain. That was only during the first

Page 4861

1 shift, from 6.00 to 1400 hours, where there were never any problems

2 anyway. And when they went -- the investigators took over all the

3 authority and competencies.

4 Q. Oh, I see. So when the interrogators went, they would be in

5 charge of the camp? Is that the idea? Is that your understanding?

6 A. Well, I can't explain for sure.

7 Q. But -- okay. So he was in charge during his day shift, but during

8 a day shift, interrogators would come and they would be in charge? Is

9 that what you're telling us?

10 A. Yes, precisely so, that's right.

11 Q. I understand. Now, we do have -- I don't know if you're going to

12 get answers by looking over there, sir. Would you please look at me? And

13 did you -- you've told us that Zivko Knezevic came to see -- I'm sorry,

14 Dusko Sikirica came to see Zivko Knezevic if he needed him or if he was

15 called; is that right?

16 A. That's what it should have been like, according to the rules of

17 service. That's how one should conduct one's duty.

18 Q. I'm not asking you what ought to have happened. I'm asking you

19 what did happen. Did that happen?

20 A. Yes, he did come.

21 Q. So there was a reporting relationship between the two? He

22 reported to Dusko -- I'm sorry, to Zivko Knezevic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, I believe you also said that Mr. Sikirica didn't have a

25 specific time and he didn't have to inform you when and where he went. I

Page 4862

1 mean, he was fairly independent in that respect, was he?

2 A. He had his set working hours, so that he knew from the morning,

3 from 6.00 to 1400 hours.

4 Q. And he didn't have to show up at the police station every day,

5 sort of punch in? Sorry, that may be an expression you're not familiar

6 with.

7 A. No.

8 Q. So you wouldn't see him on a daily basis?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Unlike the other people who would have to show up and report and

11 look at the roster, see where they were for that particular day or the

12 next day, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As a matter of fact, the people assigned to Keraterm - Sikirica's

15 group, as it were - didn't -- none of them had to show up on a daily basis

16 to find out where they were?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Those with Dusko Sikirica knew they were going to Keraterm on a

19 daily basis?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, sir, despite the fact that he was your deputy at one point,

22 in terms of rank, like - and I'm speaking in terms of a hierarchical

23 militaristic ranking - you were the same rank, correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, when you're in charge of security, what does that mean to

Page 4863

1 you? Does it mean -- I'm going to suggest it means stopping people from

2 coming in and stopping people, unauthorized people from coming in, and

3 stop people within the camp or, as you prefer, centre, from leaving; is

4 that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So these people who showed up voluntarily, once they showed up

7 voluntarily to seek safe refuge from the army, would you agree with me

8 that they couldn't leave of their own free will?

9 A. They could leave.

10 Q. Sir, have you ever heard of the expression "extremist"?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What do you understand that word to mean when you've heard it

13 used?

14 A. That word, to me, means that if you don't like your own, you don't

15 like anybody else's either.

16 Q. I'm going to turn briefly to the incident I think everybody knows,

17 the Room 3 massacre. You say you were on duty that night. I don't recall

18 you telling us what time you came on duty. Could you tell us now?

19 A. I would come on duty at 22 hours.

20 Q. So at 10.00 in the evening and --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How long had you been at work when you received the telephone call

23 from, I think you said, the shift leader? I think we are all agreed that

24 that was Dragan Kolundzija; is that correct? What time was that?

25 A. I think I was at my work post for an hour or an hour and a half,

Page 4864

1 I'm not quite sure, because it happened suddenly, so I didn't look at my

2 watch, but it was around midnight or a little before midnight; I can't say

3 exactly.

4 Q. Is that the first time that you'd heard from Mr. Kolundzija that

5 evening?

6 A. That evening, yes.

7 Q. Was there a logbook kept from the shift leader or the duty

8 sergeant or whatever you want to call that person, the -- from the

9 previous shift before you took over at 10.00?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In the aftermath of that incident, did you look at any records as

12 to what may have been happening earlier that afternoon, any logs of

13 anybody phoning in or making reports in the previous shift to that one?

14 A. As soon as I came on duty, it was my duty to look at that, but

15 there was nothing in the report.

16 Q. No?

17 A. No calls.

18 Q. So Mr. Kolundzija, when he came on duty, didn't report the unusual

19 activity of build-up of troops? That wasn't logged in the book?

20 A. I didn't see that it was written down. I don't know about that.

21 Q. There was no complaint about a machine-gun nest having been set

22 up?

23 A. Nobody told me anything.

24 Q. And the logbook surely was silent on that, wasn't it?

25 A. Nothing.

Page 4865

1 Q. Nothing, all right. Now, Sikirica was off duty at that particular

2 time of day, was he?

3 A. No, he wasn't.

4 Q. He was on duty at 10.00 at night or at midnight?

5 A. No, no, he wasn't, no.

6 Q. So the person to call would be the police station 'cause that's

7 where people were on duty 24 hours a day, right? You had a 24-hour

8 coverage of the police station; you had shifts.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Sikirica certainly wasn't at the camp 24 hours a day. He was off

11 shift, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So logically if you've got something happening at 10, 11, 12 at

14 night, you phone where there are people, correct?

15 A. Of course, yes.

16 Q. And it happened to be you, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the incident was significant enough, you figured you'd better

19 report to higher ups, didn't you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So you spoke to the deputy, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And he in turn figured, "Oh-oh, I'd better talk to the boss," so

24 he woke up Zivko, correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4866

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Page 4867

1 Q. And in the heat of the moment, you guys were dispatched, and

2 Mr. Knezevic wakes up, puts on his pants, and he comes on as quickly as he

3 can and arrives 15 minutes later, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Nothing unusual about that chain of events, is there?

6 A. To us, it was unusual.

7 Q. Certainly the circumstances, but I'm talking about the way in

8 which the reporting structure and the response to it, that's what you

9 would expect to have happened. Yes?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Now, when Dusko Sikirica came to work that morning, were you there

12 when he arrived, or had you already been sent back to the police station?

13 A. I was at the police station.

14 Q. So you don't know from personal experience exactly when he arrived

15 or what happened when he arrived or -- this is just -- you don't know.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, you were asked about the membership in the SDS, and I believe

18 you said that Dusko Sikirica, you don't recall him attending the meetings;

19 is that right?

20 A. Yes. That is, he was not at the meetings.

21 Q. Not all members attended the meetings, did they?

22 A. I don't know. During the war -- after the signing of the Dayton

23 agreement, I know that he was not there, and during the war, of course, we

24 were together at the police station.

25 Q. Did you see the list given to you by Defence counsel showing Dusko

Page 4868

1 Sikirica as being on a list of members of the SDS?

2 A. No.

3 Q. If I were to tell you that there was a list with his name on it

4 purporting to be a member of the SDS, would you change your mind about

5 that, perhaps? Would that persuade you?

6 A. I misunderstood you a little while ago. I did see the list, but

7 this list is not worth much.

8 Q. So the minute I confront you with a document, you're prepared to

9 change your answer; is that it, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Mr. Ryneveld, I don't think that that is

12 correct. I think what he's saying is that when you asked him the question

13 first, he wasn't aware that you were referring to the list that he had

14 seen.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: I see.

16 Q. You have seen the list, but you just don't pay much attention to

17 it. You don't think it's very good. Is that what you're saying?

18 A. Show me the list, please, and I will explain it to you.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Do we know -- have a number, please? I think it

20 was marked yesterday.

21 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps have the one that he has marked with orange

22 marking which I can see just here.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: I wouldn't mind having -- may I see it to see if

24 that's the one that I'm referring to?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, was this tendered?

Page 4869

1 MR. RYNEVELD: It was a handwritten list that I'm --

2 MR. GREAVES: Yes, that was the document that was in the hands of

3 the witness, and I asked him questions about it.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: So it was tendered? It should have a number.

5 MR. GREAVES: It should. I think it did -- I can't remember

6 whether it acquired a number or not.

7 THE REGISTRAR: No.

8 MR. GREAVES: It didn't, and I apologise for not having asked.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: I have my copy of it, if that assists. I have both

10 the B/C/S and the other version.

11 THE REGISTRAR: D43/1.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Could you show D43/1 to the witness,

13 please, Mr. Usher. I believe Madam Clerk will have the original, does she

14 not? Do you have the B/C/S copy of that document, Madam Clerk? If not,

15 you'll have to use mine.

16 Well, I don't want to waste time. Let's deal with this, and I'll

17 just mark my copy as an exhibit.

18 Q. First of all, that is a handwritten copy, sir, of a document which

19 I suggest to you is a purported list of members of the SDS in Prijedor,

20 Urije. Correct?

21 A. According to the list, yes, you're right. But let me now explain

22 you --

23 Q. Well, no. I will, I promise you, I'll give you a chance to

24 explain, but I'm going to ask you a couple of questions first.

25 That purports to be that. That's what it says, right? That's

Page 4870

1 what it's called?

2 A. I don't agree because I know something that you don't know.

3 Q. No.

4 A. You have two local communes mixed in here. I know the street; I

5 know the people. I know who -- where each of them lives.

6 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you at this time about the value of the list.

7 My question is, could you read the title of the list. I'm going to phrase

8 it that way: Could you read what it purports to be. What does it say?

9 A. Yes, here it says, "Members of the Prijedor SDS at Urije." Dusko

10 does not belong to Urije. This is what I'm trying to tell you.

11 Q. You're way ahead of me. That's what it purports to be: It's the

12 members of the SDS.

13 Next question: Do you see his name on the first page of that list

14 around number 68 or 69 or 70? On the typewritten version, it's number 69,

15 but I believe the handwritten list had a cross-out or something. I

16 don't -- you have my copy, so I can't --

17 A. Here it's number 71. I see it.

18 Q. All right. And that's Dusko Sikirica's name on there; is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. So, sir, simply because you didn't see him at a

22 meeting doesn't mean he wasn't a member, does it?

23 A. You could say so.

24 Q. I promised you an explanation. This is your opportunity. What is

25 it that I don't understand about this document that you so want to

Page 4871

1 explain?

2 A. I want to tell you that the person who compiled this list was a

3 member of the Urije local board who was charged with the president of the

4 SDS to make a list of the Kozarska street, which goes through both Urije

5 and Cirkin Polje. And the person who compiled this also went into Cirkin

6 Polje going house to house and made a list of all citizens who were ethnic

7 Serbs, and I can see that through the sequence of numbers because I know

8 who lives where, and they're all listed sequentially. And they are all

9 there, living and dead, all together. I think that that says enough.

10 Q. Sir, you think that this list is not accurate because of what

11 you've just said. You do not know personally that this list is not

12 accurate. You only think it's not accurate.

13 A. I know that it's not accurate. This happened on several

14 occasions. The same as with my being a secretary of the local board in

15 1991. I never attended a meeting until 1994, so it's the same thing.

16 Q. But sir, if it's the same thing, you were a member, you even put

17 it down in your CV, didn't you?

18 A. Yes, I put it down in my CV, and I want to explain it to you

19 insofar as you want it, and if you -- insofar it can help you, you can see

20 through documents that I was mobilised all that time. And let me tell you

21 this, too: The people were -- who had some reputation among people were

22 put on these lists in order to make it more attractive to the population.

23 So -- and they would be given titles, secretary and so on. And that's how

24 it went.

25 Q. Thank you for your explanation. Now, sir, just a couple more

Page 4872

1 questions because we've been at this for some time. I believe -- I just

2 want to turn to some questions put to you by Mr. Lawrence about what would

3 happen to you. You were being asked to speculate about what would happen

4 to you if you did not obey orders, and I believe you said you'd be thrown

5 out and sent to the army front and you'd be disgraced. Is that right?

6 That was your fear?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. But sir, when faced with something illegal or the possibility of

9 going to the front, that's a matter of choice, wasn't it? You had a

10 choice to make: You stood up for your conscience or you went with

11 convenience.

12 A. I think that conscience takes precedence.

13 Q. As a matter of fact, sir, you were trained when you were -- pretty

14 well all the young men in Yugoslavia had to go through a period of basic

15 training, of compulsory service, did they not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And as part of your basic training, during that period, you're

18 talked to about the Geneva Conventions and the laws and customs of war?

19 A. Very little.

20 Q. But you know it's against the law to imprison civilians, to

21 assault civilians? You know all that?

22 A. Of course we know that.

23 Q. You know you have a duty, as a soldier or as a police officer or

24 someone in a military organisation, to obey those laws, don't you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4873

1 Q. And as a police officer - forget the laws of war - it's a duty to

2 protect others, to protect civilians. That's what police are -- that's a

3 primary function of a police officer, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So if someone engaged in that capacity were to see the injustices

6 and beatings and murders of civilians in detention, that would be

7 something he'd have to speak out about, correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That's a matter of conscience you're talking about.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But as I understood your evidence, it was a choice you had to make

12 of, gee, if you talk, you might go to the front. That would be a bad

13 thing, so you were afraid to talk, right?

14 A. Well, that is exactly right, but I don't know now how to explain

15 it.

16 Q. I think you have. You were asked if a shift leader would contact

17 Zivko Knezevic, and you said, "We didn't even dare propose that." You

18 don't know that, do you? You don't know what others dared to do?

19 A. I know by my own standards.

20 Q. Well, you gave us an example, sir. You said that there was an

21 incident -- or you agreed with counsel who put this to you, that you

22 remember Kole being angry with Knezevic and that he was very brave in

23 standing up to him, as it were. Kole wasn't sent to the front, was he?

24 A. No. He was braver than we were.

25 Q. Do you remember the context of why he was yelling at Knezevic or

Page 4874

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Page 4875

1 was angry with Knezevic? Do you remember what the incident was?

2 A. You referring to Kole?

3 Q. Yes, I am.

4 A. That night, and I told how it went, Kole was angry, why Zivko

5 didn't -- had not come that night to explain to him what was going on.

6 And this is why he had an argument with him in the morning.

7 Q. All right. So the incident you were telling us about where Kole

8 was complaining, that was the Room 3 incident you're talking about, not

9 some other incident?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Ah, okay. Sir, I think we perhaps established this, but you knew

12 nothing about the day-to-day operation of Keraterm itself, did you?

13 A. I did not know about the investigation. About the security guard

14 work, I knew what their duties were.

15 Q. You don't know what went on on a day-to-day basis? These people

16 didn't report back at the end of the day, they didn't punch in in the

17 mornings, you just knew that that group was at Keraterm, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you arrived at the weigh hut after being sent there by Zivko,

20 where did you say Kole was? Did I understand you correctly to say that he

21 was near the weigh hut?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And where was the army commander?

24 A. He was about 150 metres -- actually, I don't know. He was over

25 there with the soldiers. It was night.

Page 4876

1 Q. And the soldiers were at the machine-gun nest set up in front of

2 Room 3, right? You don't even know where Room 3 is, do you sir?

3 A. Well, I don't. Later on, I heard, but until then, I did not know.

4 Q. You don't know where Room 1 was; you don't know where Room 2 is,

5 you don't know where Room 3 is; you don't know anything about Keraterm,

6 right?

7 A. No, no, no.

8 Q. Well, just as an aside, sir, do you know who the shift commanders

9 were at Keraterm?

10 A. I think it was Dragan Kolundzija, Dusko Fustar and Mr. Kajin,

11 Damir Dosen. I couldn't remember the name right away.

12 Q. And did you know all these men?

13 A. To a degree.

14 Q. If you were to see them again, you would be able to recognise

15 them?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you see Sikirica, Kolundzija and Dosen in this courtroom

18 today?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. They are the men sitting at the back wall; is that right? So you

21 knew that they were shift commanders at -- that was -- that's a fact known

22 to you, that they were shift commanders at Keraterm? I just asked you and

23 you said yes. Are we getting some response different than that now, or do

24 you agree?

25 A. I can confirm it, but also to explain it to you. We at that time

Page 4877

1 were not interested who the shift leader was. Everybody was equal. But

2 later on, as we talked about it, we saw who the shift leaders were, and --

3 but everybody was equal. Nobody could really order anything, even to a

4 guard.

5 Q. Sir, just one final question. You told us about an incident you

6 heard, or perhaps you were there, when Kole told all the detainees to get

7 into Rooms 1 and 2 because the military was coming. Do you remember

8 talking to us about that? Or maybe Mr. Lawrence suggested it to you and

9 you agreed with it. Do you remember that?

10 A. I remember it.

11 Q. So in effect, within each shift, these shift commanders could

12 affect conditions at the camp, couldn't they? They could allow people to

13 bring food, they could -- there were individual differences between

14 shifts. They could improve conditions on their own, on their own

15 authority, could they not?

16 A. That is what they did.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.

19 Mr. Greaves.

20 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Could he have a look at Exhibit 55, please.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Greaves:

22 Q. Witness DK, before today, had you ever seen that document?

23 A. I did not.

24 Q. Do you have any idea when it was created, who created it?

25 A. I see that it was compiled in 1991 - that is what it says at the

Page 4878

1 bottom - probably by the SDS president, that is, of local -- the commune

2 SDS in cooperation with the municipal SDS.

3 Q. If you had realised at that time, whenever it was prepared, that

4 [redacted], what would you

5 have done?

6 A. I simply would have had to turn it down because I had obligations.

7 Now, it is a different matter where I would have wanted to be that, but I

8 had obligations, so I couldn't.

9 Q. In 1991, was the SDS a legal political party?

10 A. I think that at that time they shared power, SDS and SDA. I

11 wasn't that much involved in it. I was still with my company, and we were

12 expecting a mobilisation.

13 Q. Was it a legal party in 1992?

14 A. In 1992, in the municipality, the majority of the population was

15 Bosniak and - how shall I put it? - they were not giving the other ethnic

16 groups their full rights, and there was an inter-ethnic conflict that

17 broke out and it was followed by the takeover of power.

18 Q. Has the SDS ever been banned? Has it ever been made a crime to be

19 a member of the SDS?

20 A. No. It is an honour to be a member of the SDS, an honourable

21 member, and this party is now the largest in our region.

22 Q. Looking at the list of people who were purportedly members of the

23 SDS, have you still got those documents beside you, Witness DK? I'm not

24 looking at that document any more.

25 A. Yes.

Page 4879

1 Q. No, no, not that document, not Exhibit 55. Membership lists that

2 were shown to you. Are there some dead people on there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us which ones, please?

5 A. How shall I refer to them, by name or number?

6 Q. The name will do fine, thank you very much, Witness DK.

7 A. Ljuban Batuz and Rade Batuz.

8 Q. Do you take your membership in the SDS to the grave with you?

9 Perhaps that's a comment. I'll move on.

10 Will you look at the salary lists again, please, Witness DK.

11 Salary lists, please. I think you may still have those with you.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I want you to look at all of them. Could you start with the one

14 for April, please.

15 A. Yes, I have it.

16 Q. Were the people who were numbered 1, 2, and 3, are they named on

17 that list? The ones who were 1, 2, and 3 and got their higher salaries,

18 are they named on that list?

19 A. I don't understand. What list are you referring to; the SDS party

20 member list?

21 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't mind my friend leading on this issue.

22 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Well, I'm very grateful for that indication

23 and I thank my learned friend for it.

24 Q. Just forget about the party lists, Witness DK. Put those right

25 out of your mind. We're now talking about reserve police salaries, all

Page 4880

1 right?

2 Three of the people on one of the lists you identified as deputy

3 commander and assistant commanders. Do you remember telling us about

4 that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do their names appear on the list for April at all?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Look at the list for May, please. I don't think that's the list

9 for May somehow. Can you just look at the date at the top, please.

10 A. May 1992.

11 Q. I apologise. Does that have the three names of the people at the

12 top there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Against their names, to the left-hand side of their names, is

15 there any annotation of any kind to the left-hand side of their names?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And in May 1992, they're all receiving the same salary as you; is

18 that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you look next at the - excuse me - list for June 1992.

21 MR. GREAVES: This was original 8.8.8 in the Prosecution's bundle.

22 Q. Do you have June?

23 A. I have for July.

24 Q. For June, please, if you can find that amongst those.

25 A. I don't have it.

Page 4881

1 MR. GREAVES: I can see some more in front of the registrar.

2 Perhaps if the usher would be kind enough just to show those to me and

3 I'll try to pick it out for him.

4 Q. Do you now have a document which is headed June 1992, Witness DK?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Look at the first three names please. Are they the same three

7 names?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do they have any annotation to the left-hand side of their names

10 of any kind?

11 A. No.

12 Q. For 26 days' work, are they receiving the same money as the rest

13 of you at that point?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would you look, please, at the list for July 1992, which I don't

16 think the Prosecutor showed to you. There is a copy here.

17 A. I've got July, yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you see the first three names, please?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. To the left-hand side of those names, are there some annotations

21 of any kind?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And correct me if I'm wrong, but are those against the first name

24 "ZK" and the second two names "PK"; is that right? Have I read that

25 correctly?

Page 4882

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13 and the English transcripts.

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Page 4883

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What might those initials stand for, Witness DK?

3 A. "ZK," deputy commander, and "PK," assistant commander.

4 Q. And would you look, please, at the salary which is being paid? Is

5 that now a different salary for 27 days work from the rest of you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And I think we will notice that -- would you look also at August,

8 please, 1992.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, I'm assuming that you're bringing

10 your re-examination to a close.

11 MR. GREAVES: I'm quite close. Let's continue and then I can wrap

12 that up, please, if I may.

13 Q. Here is a copy for August, if you haven't got one. Do you have

14 August now, Witness DK?

15 A. I have, yes.

16 Q. The first three names on the list, to the left-hand side of the

17 list are some initials?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What do those initials stand for?

20 A. Deputy assistant and assistant.

21 Q. And against those names, are there salaries which are in excess of

22 those others of you doing 26 days work?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And I won't go through it, I think it's same for September because

25 my learned friend has been through it. So there in July, 1992, is this

Page 4884

1 right, that that is the first month when there is an increase in salary

2 and the first month when there is an annotation referring to them being

3 deputy and assistant commanders? Is that right?

4 A. By the salaries, yes, but since on the -- since the first day the

5 police station was established, they were equal, the same.

6 Q. Can you help us about this: The active policemen who were

7 stationed at Prijedor II, did they have to sign these lists or did they

8 get their money from somewhere else?

9 A. They got their own salaries.

10 Q. Two more questions. In relation to the incident at Room 3, at

11 what time in the morning did you leave Keraterm?

12 A. The first time I said it, I said exactly, give or take half an

13 hour, it was about 4.00 a.m. Whether it was 3.30 or 4.30 a.m., I'm not

14 quite sure, but it was at daybreak.

15 Q. And finally this: You were asked about whether people spoke out

16 about what was happening at Keraterm. Apart from the official note that

17 we've seen, were you aware of any other occasions when Dusko Sikirica

18 complained about conditions and the circumstances at Keraterm?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How often would he do that?

21 A. Well, I remember that he did it two or three times while I was

22 passing and while I was present, but during the course of my stay at the

23 police station, I can't say. I wasn't there all the time.

24 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Do Your Honours have any further questions for

25 the witness, please?

Page 4885

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves. I just want to clarify,

2 Mr. Greaves; the documents that you used should be tendered as exhibits

3 and given an exhibit number irrespective of whether they had OTP numbers.

4 MR. GREAVES: Yes, I think that makes sense because when you come

5 to look at the transcripts, you'll be able to isolate them.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: That should be clear to the registrar. Yes.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: If I just may, if I haven't already made this

8 application - I may have - can I ask for a blanket application, any

9 documents we may have introduced also receive an appropriate number?

10 Thank you.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Quite so, yes. That's re-examination.

12 Witness DK, that concludes your testimony, and you are released.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you. If I

14 have been of assistance, I'll be happy to know that. Thank you.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic? Your case is scheduled to start

17 on, trying to remind myself of the day, the 16th?

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Have you yet produced your list of witnesses and

20 the outlines?

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as you told us a few

22 days ago, and we shall be tendering that tomorrow, and all the evidence.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will resume on Monday, the -- Mr. Greaves?

Page 4886

1 MR. GREAVES: I haven't actually closed my case yet.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have not closed.

3 MR. GREAVES: I was going to wait until after the break, and then

4 I've got some documents to tender and a video to show.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we were -- it would be better to close the

6 case now so that we wouldn't have to resume.

7 MR. GREAVES: Well, I don't mind what we do.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Do you have -- how long would this take?

9 MR. GREAVES: About ten minutes.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask the interpreters if they would continue

11 for another ten minutes, in which case we would just break for the day.

12 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I have a copy of

13 an original, which is a certificate of the release of a gentleman called

14 Sejdi Duraj and a translation of that in English, translation in French to

15 follow. I'm going to need the usher, I think, in a moment. He's fast

16 asleep. Thank you.

17 THE REGISTRAR: D44/1.

18 MR. GREAVES: I have translations in English and French of the

19 other two versions of the official note signed by Dusko Sikirica,

20 commander of security at Keraterm. We have produced those translations

21 because there are three versions in the Prosecution's bundle, although

22 there is no explanation as to why there are three different ones. No

23 doubt the Prosecution will enlighten us. If I can give those to Your

24 Honours.

25 THE REGISTRAR: D45/1, D46, D47, D47/1, D48/1.

Page 4887

1 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry, is this a new set of documents? Ah, it

2 appears to be. Thank you.

3 MR. GREAVES: These are the translations of Prosecution documents.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry, and is this the 48 set that we just --

5 I'm losing track of what document I'm getting in relation to what number.

6 That's what I need to know, please.

7 MR. GREAVES: It looks as though you're getting a yes to that.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

9 MR. GREAVES: I've then got a copy of an original record of

10 service book and a translation in English, the French translation follows,

11 relating to Dusko Sikirica.

12 THE REGISTRAR: D49/1.

13 MR. GREAVES: Next is a translation in French of a letter

14 concerning Dusko Sikirica being a member of the SDS and the actual

15 document itself. If Your Honours will recall, a copy of the original and

16 an English translation were produced. I think it was to Witness DF.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Do you have the exhibit number that it was given

18 previously, Mr. Greaves, please?

19 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry, no.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: If it can't be done now, then it could be

21 numbered later.

22 MR. GREAVES: Yes. I'll try and resolve that with the registry

23 after Your Honours have risen.

24 Next is a French translation of two exhibits, D2/1 ter and D3/1

25 ter.

Page 4888

1 In answer to the registrar's question, I think D36/1 and D37/1

2 will be the answer to that.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

4 MR. GREAVES: And the final item is a copy of an original in

5 B/C/S, French translation, English translation, of a document relating to

6 the employment of Dusko Sikirica.

7 THE REGISTRAR: D51/1.

8 MR. GREAVES: And finally, a short piece of video, Your Honours,

9 which will last four to five minutes. It shows general views of Keraterm

10 and of the main road outside Keraterm on the 16th of June of this year.

11 And if the technical booth would kindly play the video, please.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MR. GREAVES: No, it hasn't quite finished. It goes blank for a

14 short period. Thank you.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. That's the end of that.

17 Three final matters, Your Honour. That film was taken by the same

18 photographer who took our still photographs. We were asked about the lens

19 on his camera. He's gone to Montenegro on holiday, unfortunately, so we

20 can't get the information about that to reciprocate the information the

21 Prosecution are going to give us about their photographs. We will get it

22 as soon as he returns from his holiday. Hopefully, he doesn't lose his

23 camera in the meantime.

24 There is an outstanding issue of a transcript from another trial,

25 which I'm told is in the process of being obtained and is going to be

Page 4889

1 disclosed to us in due course. Could I gently remind the Prosecution to

2 keep on top of that issue? That's an important matter.

3 And finally, I close my case in respect of Dusko Sikirica, subject

4 to the report of Mr. McFadden of the prison which Your Honours have asked

5 for.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves. That being the case, we

7 will adjourn until Monday the 16th at 9.30 in the morning.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

9 4.35 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday the 16th day

10 of July, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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