Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5016

1 Tuesday, 17 July 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 WITNESS: PETAR SOVILJ [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Petrovic: [Continued]

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sovilj, yesterday we talked about the family

12 that Damir Dosen had brought to your house. Could you please tell me, to

13 your knowledge, how did it happen that Damir Dosen brought the Crnalic

14 family from the town? What did he tell you about it?

15 A. That morning there was chaos reigning in their part of town, and

16 the citizens of their ethnic group were fleeing their homes. I don't know

17 how they did it, down the road or across the road and through their

18 backyards, and in any event, Damir Dosen encountered them. They were

19 calling out "Damir," which was his -- which was their grandchild, and it

20 probably -- they probably got his attention that way because they had

21 known each other before that. Then he brought the car and drove them out

22 of the danger zone.

23 Allegedly he first took them to some friends of theirs. They had

24 expected them to take them in, but they were not taken in by their

25 friends, and so they continued on in the direction of my house.

Page 5017

1 Q. Well, you told us that. You also told us that they spent six or

2 seven days in your house, and in this period of time, did you and the

3 Crnalic family try to find a more durable solution to their plight?

4 A. In those six or seven days, the citizens who had gone to these

5 collection centres were already returning to their homes, but some of

6 these homes were destroyed so it was also more safe to be in, let's say,

7 the Trnopolje Collection Centre rather than in their damaged homes.

8 And also, there were also some uncontrolled groups - I don't know

9 if they were soldiers or something else - who were roaming around. So at

10 least they had some kind of protection there. They stayed six or seven

11 days there, and then Dosen came and took five members of the family to a

12 mutual friend, that is, the mutual friend of both the Crnalic's and my

13 family so that they would be again safe there.

14 Q. Thank you. Please, I have to interrupt you so -- to advise you to

15 speak a bit slower so that the interpreters can keep up with you.

16 Can you now tell us, who is this woman with whom you got in touch?

17 A. She was a house friend, and she was also their friend.

18 Q. What is her name?

19 A. Gordana Zurovac, and she lived in the centre of town. She lived

20 by herself. She has a son in the US and her husband had died. She also

21 had a very large house. So that was the solution that we found.

22 Q. Did you turn to Dosen and ask him to transport the family to

23 Gordana's Zurovac's house?

24 A. No, it was the Crnalics who did that. They said that they only

25 trusted Dosen's services and his transportation.

Page 5018

1 Q. Did Dosen come to transport them to this house?

2 A. Yes, he did. He came after dusk when it wasn't very visible and

3 when they could do it surreptitiously because it is dangerous for him also

4 to transport people of this ethnic background. He transported them to

5 this lady and --

6 Q. Can you tell me why Dosen did this during the night, and why do

7 you believe it was dangerous for him to do this?

8 A. It was very dangerous in those days to help this ethnic group,

9 both for me as a civilian and for him as a soldier.

10 Q. Do you -- would you tell us from whom this danger was coming or to

11 anyone who was trying to help non-Serbs in that period?

12 A. Let me tell you, a number of men from my neighbourhood have been

13 indicted by this Tribunal and they also engaged in aggressive acts against

14 other citizens, and some of them are actually here at the detention centre

15 of this Tribunal. It was -- the danger was coming from them, that --

16 Q. You are talking indirectly. You are implying someone. Do you

17 have somebody in mind specifically? Give us some names.

18 A. Seven or eight men from my neighbourhood, from my area, have been

19 indicted, and if -- I don't know if it is safe for me and my family.

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can I ask the Trial Chamber to

21 please go into a private session for a moment?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 5019

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24 [Open session]

25 MR. PETROVIC:

Page 5020

1 Q. [Interpretation] And now, please, without naming any names, in

2 respect of these people, was anybody able to control these people? Did

3 they respect and observe the law?

4 A. Nobody dared stop them. Nobody dared do that. They were not

5 controlled by anyone. They did whatever they wanted to do. And whoever

6 was to confront them, they would harm him and their families.

7 Q. Let me take you back to the Crnalic family and their fate. When

8 Damir Dosen took five family members to Gordana Zurovac's house, who

9 stayed in your house?

10 A. Mr. Banac, who was the son-in-law, and his wife, I think they were

11 calling her Pima, and their daughter. They all remained there for a

12 month. Then they went to Serbia and then from there to Germany and

13 eventually to the United States.

14 Q. Did you hear from Gordana Zurovac something, anything about their

15 stay, their stay in her house, the remaining five members of the family?

16 A. Yes, Gordana told me that Dosen visited them, brought them food,

17 because at that time there were already food shortages, and then they

18 moved to Gordana's brother's house, and I don't know whether Dosen had

19 transferred them -- transported them over to that house because at that

20 time there was already free movement.

21 Q. After the end of the war, have you seen any of the Crnalic's

22 family members?

23 A. Yes, as soon as Asim and Esma, the elderly parents, when they came

24 back, they invited me and my wife, to treat us, and they brought us

25 certain gifts for everything that we had done for them.

Page 5021

1 Q. At that time, did they mention Damir Dosen?

2 A. Yes. They did mention Damir and they had heard about Damir, that

3 he was already here. They were very sorry, and they themselves said that

4 such a person was not for The Hague. And if I can add, before my

5 departure to come here, the Serb man who came to visit Prijedor with his

6 wife and his daughter, they came from the U.S., and I saw him.

7 Q. In the conversation with you, did they also express their

8 gratitude and they said -- did they state that Damir Dosen had saved their

9 lives and the lives of their family members on the day when Prijedor was

10 ablaze?

11 A. Yes, they were full of gratitude.

12 Q. Can you tell me now, do you know, perhaps, why and for what reason

13 no member of the Crnalic family was willing to testify here before the

14 Tribunal?

15 A. I once talked to Mr. Asim, Mrs. Esma, and they told me that they

16 were too old and too frail, and Mrs. Esma even agreed to give a statement.

17 But the main reason was the fear from their own ethnic group.

18 Q. Do you know how many members of this family perished in the war?

19 A. Yes. Asim said -- he called me Pepo, that's my nickname. I [as

20 interpreted] said, "I cannot do it for the 18 members of our own family

21 who were killed in the war. I cannot do this." I told him, "Asim, I

22 doubt that any one of them was killed by this person." And he said,

23 "Please don't try to convince me."

24 Q. Let me ask you a few additional questions that do not directly

25 relate to what we have been talking up to now but that may still be of

Page 5022

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Page 5023

1 some significance for this trial.

2 You mentioned the men out of control, who were lawless. In the

3 summer of 1992, were there several such armed groups who were roaming the

4 town, if you know?

5 A. There were several groups. One of them came to my house to check

6 on me. There was a vanload of them, five or six of them. I did not know

7 any one of them.

8 Q. Could anybody confront these people?

9 A. No, I don't think that there was any authority. It lasted for

10 about a month. For about a month there was no control.

11 Q. And the citizens of Prijedor, did they have a feeling that there

12 was any kind of authority that is keeping things under control in town?

13 A. To a degree, yes, but when you saw these people roaming around,

14 people had doubts, that they doubted everything.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

16 questions except I would like to tender two documents that were shown the

17 witness yesterday, provided there that are no objections to it.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. They may be tendered and given exhibit

19 numbers.

20 THE REGISTRAR: The certificate dated 1 June 1992 will be marked

21 Defence Exhibit D12/2, and the handwritten note will be marked Defence

22 Exhibit D13/2.

23 MR. GREAVES: No questions, thank you.

24 MR. LAWRENCE: No questions, thank you.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

Page 5024

1 Ms. Baly.

2 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Baly:

4 Q. You said at this time there was no authority and no control. This

5 was at a time when Serbs had in fact taken over control, and they had the

6 authority, I suggest to you. What do you say to that?

7 A. Am I supposed to answer now?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You have been asked a question.

9 A. I did not quite understand it. Can it be repeated?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel speak into the microphone,

11 please. Thank you.

12 MS. BALY:

13 Q. In response to some questions by my learned friend Mr. Petrovic,

14 you said that at this time when these armed groups were roaming around

15 town, there was no authority and no control. I'm suggesting to you that

16 in fact it was the people of Serbian ethnicity who were in control and who

17 had authority at that time. Do you agree or disagree with that?

18 A. I agree that the authority was Serbian and that the military

19 authorities had designated persons who would oversee the collection

20 centre, whatever it was called, but they could not monitor the individuals

21 who were doing it. They could go anywhere, enter anywhere, and do

22 whatever they wanted.

23 Q. And the purpose of the collection centres was to collect the

24 persons of non-Serb ethnicity and detain them there. Would you agree with

25 that?

Page 5025

1 A. I agree. The way I understood it, these collection centres served

2 for an organised transfer of these members of these ethnic groups so that

3 they would be transferred out to third countries. And I think that the

4 soldiers who were militarily engaged in these centres, in my opinion, did

5 very little harm.

6 Q. And so are you saying that the collection centres were operating

7 so as to deport these people away from Prijedor?

8 A. Yes, they were used for deporting people. And some actually came

9 back and continued to live there, and they still do. For instance, my

10 commander was an ethnic Croat. The main cook in my unit was ethnic Muslim

11 in the unit where I served.

12 Q. Now, just turning to the Muslim family, I think you said there

13 were five members of the family; is that correct?

14 A. There were eight members. Five left after about seven days, they

15 left my house, and three remained in my house, including the Serb man for

16 whom it was easier to stay there and be safer, and his family.

17 Q. What were the approximate ages of those eight members of the

18 family?

19 A. The two oldest members, Esma and Asim, were over 60 at that time,

20 and their sons-in-law and daughters around 35, and grandchildren around

21 10.

22 Q. How many grandchildren were there?

23 A. A boy and a girl, Vedrana and Damir.

24 Q. And you indicated this morning that Mr. Kajin did in fact know

25 this family. That's correct, isn't it?

Page 5026

1 A. No, I did not say that he knew them, and what his motive was for

2 picking them up in the street. The Crnalics assumed that it was because

3 of the little Damir, because when they were calling him out, and this

4 man's name is Damir, that he reacted to that. I don't know the exact

5 motive.

6 Q. You've never asked Mr. Kajin whether he knew the family, have

7 you?

8 A. No. At that time I had no need. I wasn't aware of any need to

9 ask him about that. The only thing I told him when he came to my house

10 was -- to visit them, was that it would be desirable to lessen the burden

11 on my house with the people of that ethnic background, because my house

12 could have been targeted and at risk, and this is what he did. He found

13 some time off to transport them from my house to the house of that lady

14 where they then stayed next.

15 Q. This family, I think you said, was a very well-known family; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes, one of the best-known families, an old family in the town of

18 Prijedor, and that was precisely why it was dangerous for them -- it was

19 dangerous to help them.

20 Q. And so all of the members of this family, including the elderly

21 members and the children, were in fear for their lives from the Serbs;

22 that's correct, isn't it?

23 A. Correct. All the members were in fear.

24 Q. Now, this occurred at a time prior to the Keraterm and Omarska

25 camps being fully operational; would you agree with that?

Page 5027

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Page 5028

1 A. Yes. That was precisely the time when people were being taken to

2 that centre. It was precisely at that particular segment of time, early

3 May.

4 MS. BALY: Yes, thank you.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you Ms. Baly. Mr. Petrovic?

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should merely like

7 to ask the witness to clarify the time when it happened, that is the time

8 of the attack on the town, in view of his last answer. He said early

9 May.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] So is it early May or is it late May?

12 A. These people came to me in early May, 30th May, I think it was.

13 Q. So it's the end of May?

14 A. 30th May, yes, I'm sorry, I bungled things up. Yes, late May,

15 correct.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Thank you very much, Your Honours. I do not have any further

18 questions.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

20 Mr. Sovilj, that concludes your testimony, and you're released.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, we are now going to have the

24 videolink conference evidence. I understand all the arrangements have

25 been made. Will the Registrar confirm? You may proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

Page 5029

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We should

2 like to call the witness Husein Ganic, if he can hear us.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

4 WITNESS: HUSEIN GANIC

5 [Witness testified via videolink]

6 [Technical difficulty]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, this is impossible to interpret.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness may sit.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, this will be impossible to

10 interpret. The quality of the sound is just too bad.

11 Examined by Mr. Petrovic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ganic, can you hear me?

13 A. I do.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a problem

15 with the B/C/S. The sound is very poor. Can we do something about

16 putting the sound level from Banja Luka up because the sound is very

17 poor.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can the sound be improved?

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Ganic will you give us your full name?

21 A. Ganic, Husein.

22 Q. And where were you born?

23 A. I was born in Gomjenica, Prijedor, 6 of January, 1936.

24 Q. [no interpretation]

25 A. And at the moment I'm the manager of my company.

Page 5030

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are the interpreters hearing it?

2 THE INTERPRETER: It's not easy at all.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am afraid that the

4 B/C/S channel is really not good enough for interpretation.

5 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, there's another problem. It's not

6 obvious from the transcript as to whether or not he has in fact made the

7 solemn declaration.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought he had, but ...

9 MR. GREAVES: It doesn't appear on the transcript, and I'm just

10 concerned that it should do so ...

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to have him make the solemn declaration

13 again so that it is reflected on --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honor, please.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: My microphone is on.

16 I'm saying the witness will make the solemn declaration again

17 since it was not reflected on the transcript and it is an important aspect

18 of the proceedings.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 WITNESS: HUSEIN GANIC

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the sound is very poor indeed. It

24 will be very difficult to interpret this witness.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that reflected now on the transcript? I don't

Page 5031

1 have the transcript in front of me.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I believe it is, Your Honours. I

3 believe it is.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us, let us try and see how far we can go with

5 this. Continue, Mr. Petrovic.

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Examined by Mr. Petrovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ganic, can you tell us, since when has your

9 family been living in Gomjenica?

10 A. From what I heard from my parents, my family has been living in

11 Prijedor, in the area of Prijedor since the 16th century.

12 Q. Can you tell us something about your career? Where did you live?

13 Where did you work?

14 A. I began as a metal worker for Bosna Montaza in Prijedor. Then I

15 went to Zagreb. I was in Zagreb and worked there for about five years.

16 And then in 1969 I started my own business, and to this day I am

17 self-employed.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: The problem seems to be with the interpretation,

19 hearing the interpretation, because we are also hearing at the same time

20 the B/C/S, so it's difficult to distinguish the interpretation.

21 Can the registrar see, is there any way in which it can be

22 improved? It's probably a feedback we're getting.

23 MR. LAWRENCE: It looks as though the volume is independent of the

24 B/C/S so that you can put that up for the interpreter. It doesn't affect

25 the level of the broadcast from Banja Luka. If you put the earphones in

Page 5032

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Page 5033

1 front of your head, it's a little bit clearer to understand.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks for that technical assistance. We'll try

3 that. No, I think when we put the volume up we get a feedback.

4 Perhaps we should take a ten-minute break and see whether the

5 technology can be improved. I'll ask the registrar to do her best.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take a ten-minute, we'll take a ten-minute

8 break. We'll rise for ten minutes.

9 --- Break taken at 10.10 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 10.22 a.m.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll try again, Mr. Petrovic.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Ganic, did you testify for the Prosecution in the Omarska case

14 last September?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. Do you know if you were also supposed to testify in this case, in

17 the Keraterm case, as a witness for the Prosecution?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you tell me if sometime in June 1992, were you arrested from

20 your house?

21 A. I was arrested from my house on the 23rd of June, 1992, by my

22 neighbours.

23 Q. And who else was arrested that day?

24 A. That day, my son Edin was arrested, some of my neighbours,

25 Hodzics, Karapovics, and so on.

Page 5034

1 Q. [No translation]

2 A. The persons who arrested me accused me of being an extremist, of

3 being in possession of weapons, of having two tanks buried on my plot of

4 land.

5 Q. And where were you taken from your house?

6 A. From my house, I was taken in the direction of the village of

7 Zega, and a bridge where my other neighbours were killed.

8 Q. How were you taken there?

9 A. We were taken there in a vehicle with the police escort, and my

10 neighbours.

11 Q. And from there, where were you taken?

12 A. From there, I was taken to Keraterm, to a checkpoint, to where

13 they had their checkpoint, the guards.

14 Q. And where were you put up in Keraterm?

15 A. In Keraterm, I was put in Room 2. First they took me to Room 1,

16 and then they moved me to Room 2, and my son Edin, they put in Room 1.

17 Q. And how long were you in Room 2?

18 A. In that room, in Room 2, I was until I was beaten on the 29th of

19 June by Zigic and his associates.

20 Q. Can you tell us who else beat you, aside from Zigic?

21 A. Aside from Zigic, I was also beaten by Duca Knezevic, Goran Lajic,

22 Predrag Banovic. There were five of them. And there is another one who

23 also beat me but I'd rather not say his name.

24 Q. Did Zigic try to demand money from you?

25 A. Mr. Zigic entered the room, he was wearing military clothes with

Page 5035

1 his sleeves rolled up, with an automatic weapon, and yelled three times,

2 "Let's have Husein Ganic come out. Let's have Husein Ganic come out.

3 Let's have Husein Ganic come out."

4 Q. And that night, was your son Edin beaten too?

5 A. My son Edin was beaten the same night. Dujo Alisic, Muharem

6 Alisic, three Alisic brothers; one of them was underage. There were many

7 of us, I don't know how many exactly, but many of us were beaten that

8 night, and all by Zigic, Knezevic, Goran Lajic, Banovic and others.

9 Q. Do you know the person named Drago Tokmadzic?

10 A. I do. That night, Drago was also beaten and I did not see that,

11 but the other inmates who were working outside that Drago Tokmadzic was

12 put on a hook and then Zigic drove him around the perimeter.

13 Q. Was Drago beaten the same night when you were beaten?

14 A. I did not see it, but next to the room where I was, I heard Drago

15 saying, "Help, save me. Don't let them do it."

16 Q. Did Drago Tokmadzic die from the wounds sustained that night?

17 A. Drago died there that night, that is what I heard, but many are

18 saying that, so I think it's true. I -- when I talk to people in Prijedor

19 and the surrounding villages, I hear from people that he died that night.

20 Q. Do you know a person called Esad Islamovic?

21 A. Esad Islamovic was together with me in the Prijedor hospital. He

22 was a police officer.

23 Q. Was Esad Islamovic also beaten the same night when you and your

24 son was beaten?

25 A. That same night, Islam Islamovic was also beaten, and he was

Page 5036

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Page 5037

1 together with us being treated in the Prijedor hospital.

2 Q. Do you know a person called Besim Jusufi?

3 A. I do. I saw him that night for the first time, and he was also

4 beaten, Besim was. My son knows more about him because they were in the

5 hospital together, I guess.

6 Q. I'll withdraw this question. The next question: Did you know any

7 of the Kajin brothers from before the war?

8 A. From the Kajin brothers, I knew Drasko and Damir. Drasko worked

9 in the restaurant next to my house, and I knew both of them because they

10 socialised with my sons. They spent -- were spending a lot of time

11 together, especially -- and especially my son took Drasko on his

12 motorcycle a number of times, and they were in this restaurant which was

13 about 200 metres from my house, and I knew him -- knew them as very nice

14 people.

15 Q. Thank you. Let me interrupt you here. We'll come to that later.

16 The next morning after those beatings, did the shift where the

17 Kajin brothers worked come on duty?

18 A. My son was in Room 1, and he and another man asked for help, and

19 his brother Drasko responded. He intervened through Dr. Barudzija from

20 Prijedor, and 70 [as interpreted] of us who were beaten were treated. He

21 put some plaster and other things, and then Dr. Barudzija came at the

22 request of the Kajins. And from there, they took us to the hospital.

23 Q. If I understood you correctly, the next morning the shift where

24 the Kajins worked came on duty, and your son then approached Drasko?

25 A. Yes, that is correct. Yes, he approached Drasko, and both he and

Page 5038

1 Damir -- I did not hear this, but my son claims 1.000 per cent that they

2 saved 17 of us by having us transported to the hospital.

3 Q. To your knowledge and during the period that you spent in

4 Keraterm, were people again taken to the hospital on any occasion?

5 A. I wouldn't be able to say that because I don't know, except for

6 this one time when the 17 of us were taken there.

7 Q. Could you tell us the names of some of the men who were

8 transported to the hospital on that occasion?

9 A. Yes, I can. Islamovic was transported, three Alisic brothers,

10 then Crljenkovic. I couldn't tell you all the names because many names --

11 many years have gone by and I have aged so I have lost some memory of

12 that, but I do have a list of these men. I could look it up.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your permission,

14 I would like to show the document to the witness in Banja Luka, and this

15 is an excerpt from the protocol in the Prijedor hospital. And I think it

16 would be easier to give the witness also the English translation so he can

17 review it, and I'm going to distribute it around this courtroom. And I

18 also would like to have the witness in Banja Luka be shown the list so

19 that he can confirm whether this is the list of men who were transported

20 to the Prijedor hospital along with him on that day.

21 Could the witness also be shown this document, which should be in

22 the possession of the registrar in Banja Luka.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let the witness be shown the document.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Ganic, will you please look at the more legible version. This

Page 5039

1 is the English version of the document, but you will see that the names

2 are the same, the spelling of the names are the same, and I would like you

3 to read them out. Oh, I see. There is a problem with the reading

4 glasses. Mr. Ganic, are you able to read it?

5 A. I'm sorry, I cannot. I did not bring my reading glasses. I did

6 not know that we would have a situation like this.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: There is an objection from Ms. Baly. Let us hear

8 the objection.

9 MS. BALY: It's not an objection but a request for a copy of the

10 document.

11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that a copy was provided,

12 but I have an extra if you need it.

13 Q. Mr. Ganic, are you able to read it, or you don't have your reading

14 glasses?

15 A. No, I don't have it, but there is a person here who is going to

16 read it out for me.

17 Q. Mr. Ganic, let me read it out for you and for all of us, and you

18 can tell me whether any of these persons were taken to the hospital with

19 you to the best of your recollection. Alija Mehmetovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mustafa Ojdan? If you recall.

22 A. No, no, I cannot recall that name.

23 Q. Ismet Alisic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Your son, Ibrahim?

Page 5040

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Bekim Jusufi?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Jasim Alisic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Sulejman Alisic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Sefkija whose last name we do not know, but he's the son of Alija?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Fahim Alisic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Esad Islamovic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Ilijaz Jakupovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Besim Jusufi?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Zoran Pavlovic?

19 A. Yes, the taxi driver.

20 Q. Mirsad Kekic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Armin Alisic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Fuad Hodzic?

25 A. I don't know that person.

Page 5041

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Page 5042

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ganic.

2 A. You're welcome.

3 Q. When you were taken into hospital, were you visited by anyone?

4 A. Yes. I was visited by Jovo Sipka and the secretary of the local

5 commune of Orlovci and Garevci. I knew them both.

6 Q. What did these people ask you?

7 A. They asked me, "Ganic, whatever happened to you?" I told them

8 that I did not know, and they said, "Do you know who beat you?" And at

9 that time, I did not want to say, I did not dare tell them who beat me.

10 And they told me, "Please, feel free to tell us. From now on, you [As

11 interpreted] will not harm you. You did nothing." He said that on the

12 10th at 10.00, two officers would come to interview me, and this is what

13 happened.

14 Q. What did they ask you about?

15 A. They first asked me who beat me and why, why they beat me, and why

16 were they doing this, because it was not democratic, that people be beaten

17 in such a manner. And then I told them the real truth, that I was beaten

18 by Zoran Zigic, Duca Knezevic, Goran Lajic, Banovic and so on. They

19 interviewed me, they asked many questions of me, and they told me, "Ganic,

20 go back to Keraterm. From now on, nobody will touch you. We need -- we

21 know everything. We have -- we are in touch with your family. We know

22 that you did not participate in anything, that you didn't have any

23 weapons." And this is exactly what I did. I did nothing but work all day

24 long.

25 Q. Were these military personnel?

Page 5043

1 A. These were two officers. I cannot tell you exactly what they

2 were, captains or majors or something, but they were ranking officers.

3 They interviewed me there, and when they finished interviewing me, they

4 took me back in a wheelchair to my bed.

5 Q. Does that mean that these ranking officers were familiar with the

6 fact that you were beaten at Keraterm by the persons whom you named?

7 A. Yes, they were familiar with that.

8 Q. To your knowledge, did they do anything to punish those who had

9 beaten you?

10 A. Well, I think, according to what they said, that they did, because

11 after I left the hospital and went back for interrogation, that nobody

12 beat me or hit me.

13 Q. When you were taken back to Keraterm, did you again see any one of

14 those who had beaten you, that is Zigic, Lajic, Knezevic, Duca?

15 A. After that, I did not see any one of them because I was disabled.

16 I couldn't -- I had vision problems, I had problems with my head, with my

17 legs and arms, and I was just lying. I was lying like a dead man all that

18 time.

19 Q. Did your son perhaps tell you anything about seeing them, either

20 there or in the town, after that?

21 A. My son, when he was released from the camp and when he came home,

22 he saw Mr. Zigic, who came to the house, who came again to ask the same

23 things that he was asking at Keraterm, a hundred kilograms of gold and

24 money, and again he beat up my son Edin, and the younger son jumped

25 through the window and was rescued by a neighbour, and my son ended up in

Page 5044

1 a cast.

2 Q. Is it true that you were taken back to Keraterm after the

3 hospital?

4 A. Yes. I think that I was in the hospital two, maybe three days.

5 Q. Were you interrogated at Keraterm?

6 A. I was taken by two camp inmates to the upper floor and was

7 interrogated by Radenko, an inspector from the municipality, and a man

8 called Topic. I knew both of these men.

9 Q. How many days did you spend in the hospital altogether?

10 A. A total of ten days, I think. I don't know the exact dates, but I

11 think I was released on the 13th.

12 Q. After that, after the return to Keraterm and the interrogation,

13 were you transferred to Omarska?

14 A. That is correct. When I was interrogated, they took me back, and

15 I was on pallets again. They -- then they called people out. I heard

16 them call out my name but I couldn't move, but Meho Curic said, "Ganic,

17 go, crawl if you can, get out, so that you can go." This is what I did.

18 I crawled on all fours and crawled over some of the inmates, and came out

19 of the door, and my neighbour, Zoran Gavranovic, saw me, and he said,

20 "Dr. Barudzija, take Ganic from there."

21 Q. How long were you in Omarska, until when?

22 A. I was at Omarska for about a month.

23 Q. And after that, where were you transferred?

24 A. After that, I was taken to Manjaca.

25 Q. And after Manjaca?

Page 5045

1 A. After Manjaca, the high commissioner for permission -- for

2 refugees took us to Karlovac.

3 Q. Can you tell me how long did you know Drasko Dosen for, before the

4 war?

5 A. I knew him when he first came to work for us at the restaurant.

6 And he socialised with my son.

7 Q. Is it correct that you did not know his son Damir before the war?

8 A. I did know him but I know him -- knew him very little in

9 comparison to Drasko. I knew him just in passing.

10 Q. When you came to Keraterm, how many people were there in Room 2,

11 where you were placed?

12 A. The room leader who was there with us was saying that we were

13 about 270, around that figure. I cannot recall exactly.

14 Q. What did these people tell you about Kajin when you arrived?

15 A. When I arrived, when I came in Room 2, I started asking around. I

16 knew all these people, they were all locals from Prijedor, and they were

17 saying, "Don't fear Kajin. When Kajin is on duty, everything is quiet,

18 nobody is being beaten." And he was praising Kajin for being fair, for

19 bringing cigarettes to inmates, and providing extra food, some extra bread

20 and other things for the inmates if they were hungry.

21 Q. Did these people tell you anything about ability to sleep when

22 Kajin was on duty?

23 A. Yes, they did. They said, "You can sleep in peace when he is on

24 duty. You need not fear anyone."

25 Q. Does that mean that in Kajin's shift, there were -- people were

Page 5046

1 not called out and beaten?

2 A. While I was at Keraterm, I assert 100 per cent that Kajin was

3 helping people, that he was outgoing. That is while I was there. I know

4 that on the perimeter, he didn't beat anyone. He may have been forced to

5 do some things, but he was fair until the end.

6 Q. Can you just clarify for me something that I asked you, which is:

7 Was any person called out and beaten in Kajin's shift, if you can be very

8 succinct in answering that question?

9 A. Yes, what I can say --

10 Q. Mr. Ganic, we did not hear your answer.

11 A. I can tell you precisely that while I was there, I did not hear

12 that Kajin did anything to anyone, hurt anyone or asked anything, demand

13 anything. But the others did. I give you a truthful statement, and I

14 stand by it, that Kajin did not touch, even touch anyone.

15 Q. Can you tell me, in the room where you were staying, can you tell

16 us the names of some persons who on that first day of your stay there told

17 you these things about Kajin?

18 A. I can. Aba Suljanovic told me this, Maro Curic, Sadik Curic, a

19 man called Enver Kurtovic. I cannot remember all the names, but these

20 were the men who were around me.

21 Q. Can you tell me whether this Banovic person ever worked with Kajin

22 in the same shift?

23 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that. I don't remember it. I know

24 that Banovic was beating, persecuting people. It was very bad, but I

25 cannot say anything about that. I did not hear about that.

Page 5047

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Page 5048

1 Q. Did you ever see Banovic working in the same shift when Kajin was

2 working?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. Did you ever see Kajin order anything to anyone while you were in

5 Keraterm?

6 A. I assert that to my knowledge, Kajin never did any such thing

7 while I was there.

8 Q. Did you see him issue any orders to the guards, for instance,

9 assign them to certain posts or anything like that?

10 A. No. I did not see anything like that.

11 Q. Did you ever hear from anyone that Kajin was selling cigarettes at

12 Keraterm?

13 A. I only heard that Kajin was bringing cigarettes to his friends and

14 acquaintances and never took money from them for it.

15 Q. Did Kajin or his brother ever ask any -- for a counter-favour or a

16 favour as a payment for the services that -- having transported you to the

17 hospital?

18 A. No, the Kajin brothers did not ask anything. They came and

19 visited us but asked for no compensation. Only Zigic did this, and Dusko

20 Knezevic, Goran Lajic, Predrag Banovic, and the others.

21 Q. You were in Room 2. During your stay there, did you ever see

22 prisoners mistreated and abused in Kajin's presence at any time? Did you

23 personally see that?

24 A. I cannot say any such thing. I cannot say anything about Kajin

25 because while he was on duty, I was able to sleep and others were able to

Page 5049

1 sleep, and some even were singing songs while he was on duty.

2 Q. You knew a lot of people there, and even if you did not see or

3 hear anything, did you hear from them anything that would make you change

4 your opinion of Kajin?

5 A. No. I did not hear anything, not a bad word about Kajin from

6 anyone.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, we have to break sharp at 11.00.

8 Are you bringing your examination-in-chief to an end now?

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe another ten

10 minutes, no more.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ganic, we are going to adjourn for half an

14 hour. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with

15 anybody, including the members of the Defence.

16 We are adjourned.

17 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I proceed?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please proceed.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Ganic, I only have a few more questions. Tell me, did you see

23 any food being brought to Keraterm? Did families -- did relatives who

24 were outside Keraterm bring any food there?

25 A. Well, yes, food was being brought.

Page 5050

1 Q. And was there any trouble to take that food in on Kajin's shifts?

2 A. Why, yes.

3 Q. Will you please answer my question? Was there any trouble when

4 this food was brought there on Kajin's shifts?

5 A. On Kajin's shifts, when Kajin worked, food was brought for me, and

6 Goran, Goran, Goran Gavranovic -- no, sorry, Zoran, Zoran Gavranovic

7 brought this food for me. That is, he brought me the food that my

8 daughter had brought, and I received everything that she had brought. The

9 same goes for all the others who went through the checkpoint.

10 Q. Mr. Ganic, recently, the Bosnian-Hercegovinian television, which

11 has The Hague Diary, and it says that Zigic and Kajin demanded a pot of

12 gold from you. Could you please tell us if that is correct?

13 A. No, that is not true. I never made such a statement, and if I

14 did, I spoke against Zigic. And as for Kajin, the man never took part in

15 this, nor would I charge him with this. I would say that he had done it,

16 had he done the same thing as Zigic, Banovic and Lajic. I would have said

17 the same about him, but it wouldn't be honest. I'm of advanced age and I

18 do not want to lie. So what is true is that Kajin did not take part in

19 this.

20 Q. After Keraterm, you were taken to Omarska. Can you please tell

21 the Chamber -- can you draw a comparison between the conditions in

22 Keraterm and Omarska for the Chamber? Can you tell us what was the

23 difference between being detained in Keraterm as opposed to Omarska?

24 A. I can, yes. There was a huge difference between Keraterm, when I

25 was there, and Omarska. In Keraterm, people settled their private

Page 5051

1 accounts. Whoever had an axe to grind with someone, whoever had a grudge

2 with someone, whoever had got into a fight with somebody, those were the

3 squaring of accounts, whereas in -- so that was individual. In Omarska,

4 however, people were taken out massively. Very many people disappeared

5 during my stay there.

6 Q. On several occasions today, we mentioned this Zigic and Duca. Who

7 were those men? Did you know them before the war? What kind of people

8 were they?

9 A. Zoran Zigic knew me -- well, as a matter of fact, we were kind of

10 colleagues. And Duca Knezevic, I know -- I knew through my sons because

11 they rode bikes together. Goran Lajic was close to us. He had a father

12 who had a tractor so he came often to my place to load certain

13 merchandise, and I helped them. So there is a big difference between

14 these men and this man. I mean, Zoran Zigic was a taxi driver, and I know

15 him very well indeed. Goran Lajic was divorced. He lived with his

16 father, and I heard that he even beat his father at the time. Duca

17 Knezevic, as I said, I know him only through my sons because they used to

18 ride the motorbikes together. Banovic, I did not know him until I got to

19 Keraterm. But my son knew him much better than I did.

20 Q. Will you please tell us, what kind of people were they? Were they

21 violent people? Were they bullies? Were they trigger-happy?

22 A. Zoran Zigic was always ready to beat, to bully, to kill even

23 before the war and during the war, too. As I say, Goran Lajic was young.

24 I did not know if he beat anyone before, but he was an extremist, as

25 people say. Banovic likewise was -- by an extremist, I mean ethnically he

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Page 5053

1 was always very offensive when it came to Muslims and our Islamic faith.

2 That is what I know about it.

3 Q. Would those people have killed a Serb had he crossed their path?

4 A. Sure. Zoran Zigic beat, himself. Zoran Zigic would kill,

5 himself. He killed a Greek and then before the war he killed a Serb. All

6 he cared about was some booty. If he could find a person who had some

7 gold, if he could get some money from people, those are people that he

8 beat. And he went to Carakovo, Hambarine, Rizvanovici, and those other

9 Muslim places. People from all those places tell us what he did. In

10 Zecovi, Hambarine, Carakovo, Rizvanovici, he plundered a vast quantity of

11 gold, of money, and so on.

12 Q. Did at that time anyone dare face up to them when they were armed

13 and since they were dangerous?

14 A. No. None of the camp inmates, how could they do it when seeing

15 that he had arms and we were bare handed and we were inside? Nobody ever

16 tried to defend himself because he would have been killed immediately.

17 Q. Would Zigic and Duca perhaps attack a Serb guard, a soldier, a

18 policeman, whoever tried to prevent them from doing something?

19 A. I learned a great deal about that, that if somebody defended us or

20 somebody was on good terms for us, he would also suffer at the hands of

21 these extremists.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly.

23 MS. BALY: I object to the witness being asked to speculate in

24 this way, Your Honour.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I say something?

Page 5054

1 This is not speculation. The witness has experience in the camp. The

2 witness heard -- is familiar with these situations. He maybe even saw

3 some of the things that I'm [as interpreted] talking about, so this is not

4 speculation. These are some conclusions that he could draw from what he

5 had the opportunity to see in the first, second, or third camp, and I

6 believe he has information to give to the Chamber.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree with Mr. Petrovic. I think it is a

8 matter that the witness can testify to.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Ganic, will you please tell me -- answer my question once

11 again. Did Duca or Zigic, perhaps, attack -- if Zigic or Duca attacked a

12 soldier or a guard or somebody, could somebody prevent them?

13 A. No. Zigic was dangerous. There were guards who defended Muslims.

14 There was Duca, who was also dangerous for those who defended Muslims.

15 Goran Lajic was also dangerous. Banovic in particular. Banovic was a man

16 of his own kind because he had authority at the checkpoint in Keraterm,

17 and when people brought food or who came to help, he would swear at them,

18 at their mothers, and say, "Whom have you come to defend? You've come to

19 defend Muslims, balijas, thieves, Turks. What do I know?"

20 That's how it was. I'm telling the truth. I'm 65 years old. I

21 do not want to harm any one of those people who were all right, who

22 defended us.

23 Q. Could you tell us if any assistance, any favour by Serb to a

24 Muslim, did it incur a high personal risk for that man?

25 A. Yes, that is true. And others witnesses can corroborate this,

Page 5055

1 witnesses who were in camps, because not as -- many people did not dare

2 help bring food or anything else. They simply did not dare.

3 Q. Mr. Ganic, only two more questions. Can we then conclude that

4 brothers Kajin, the way they behaved saved your life, your son's life, and

5 the life of other people whom they transferred to the hospital?

6 A. I think that it is owing to brothers Kajin that I'm alive, that my

7 son is alive, and those others who survived who were taken to the hospital

8 and brought back. And the whole of Prijedor knows that that is how it

9 was, I mean, all those inmates who survived.

10 Q. Would you ever before this Chamber testify that you had heard

11 anything bad about Kajin, about Damir Dosen, would you testify about that

12 here?

13 A. This is gospel truth. I work in Prijedor, and in those villages,

14 from those Muslims who survived, none of them has ever mentioned to me yet

15 that Kajin had done something to them.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this will be the end

17 of my direct examination, and I should also like to tender the document

18 that I produced as a Defence exhibit if there are no objections to it.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. May it be given a number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Document will be marked Defence Exhibit D14/2.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Any cross-examination?

22 MR. GREAVES: No questions, thank you.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan?

24 MR. LAWRENCE: No questions.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly.

Page 5056

1 MS. BALY: Thank you.

2 Cross-examined by Ms. Baly:

3 Q. Can I first clarify some dates with you, please, Mr. Ganic. You

4 were arrested on the 29th of June, 1992; is that correct?

5 A. No, that is not correct. I was arrested on the 23rd, and I was

6 beaten on the 29th.

7 Q. Arrested on the 23rd of June, beaten on the 29th of June. When

8 were you taken to the hospital?

9 A. Well, I can't remember exactly, but I think it was a day or two

10 later. A day or two later, they took me to the hospital.

11 Q. And how many days did you spend in the hospital?

12 A. About ten. I'm not quite sure as to a day.

13 Q. Then returned back to Keraterm camp, at which time you lay in an

14 incapacitated state in your room; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. When were you transferred to Omarska?

17 A. I was transferred after, I think, some two days after I came to

18 Keraterm. I'm not quite sure, but I would say two or three days.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, another point. Drasko Dosen was a good friend of

20 your son and was also your son's employee; is that correct?

21 A. It is. My son and Drasko grew up together, socialised. He worked

22 not far from our place, and that is what saved us mostly, that they knew

23 one another and both of them interceded and helped to save my son because

24 his leg was broken.

25 Q. And the situation was that you knew Damir Dosen but not quite as

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Page 5058

1 well as Drasko; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. The two Dosen brothers were on the same shift; is that correct?

4 A. As far as I knew, that is so. They were together on various

5 occasions, and my son told me when I'd go to them, "Don't worry. They are

6 on duty. Don't worry."

7 Q. And Damir Dosen was the leader of that particular shift; that's

8 correct, isn't it?

9 A. I don't know, which shift?

10 Q. The shift that he and his brother worked on.

11 A. I --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ganic, did you hear the question?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will you answer the question?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said "yes."

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Ms. Baly.

17 MS. BALY: I think I better clarify that.

18 Q. You agreed with me that Damir Dosen was the leader of that

19 particular shift; is that right?

20 A. You want me to answer?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. You are to answer the question.

22 A. Right. This shift, I am talking about Damir and Drasko, and I'm

23 saying that they were on the same shift, and that shift, when I was

24 beaten, they were not there. At least as far as I know. I did not

25 notice -- I did not see Damir and Drasko on that shift.

Page 5059

1 Q. No, Mr. Ganic, that wasn't the question that I asked you. I asked

2 you a simple question. The shift that they both worked on was led by

3 Damir Dosen as the leader of the shift; that's correct, isn't it?

4 A. Shift leader, yes, he was that. As far as I know, he was older

5 than Drasko. When they were on duty, yes, this one was a guard and that

6 one was a shift leader. That's what I heard from others, as far as I

7 heard from them, yes, that is so.

8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ganic, what crime did you commit that merited you

9 being detained at Keraterm and Omarska camps?

10 A. I never did any harm to anyone, nor did I ever commit a crime

11 against anyone, be it my neighbours or friends and fellow workers. I'm a

12 man who knows the whole Prijedor. I'm a man who spent his life working,

13 was on good terms with my neighbours, helped my neighbours, and I simply

14 don't know how my neighbours could write what they did, that I have two

15 tanks, that I'm an Ustasha, that I'm a Green Beret, that they came to my

16 house, ill-treated me, "Give us your weapons, come on, you're working for

17 the berets." All that's a lie. It's only that I wanted to work and

18 therefore had earned some property, and they wanted to steal it from me

19 and incapacitate me and my children.

20 Q. You told us earlier that after you were arrested, that some of the

21 people you were arrested with were killed. Do you recall giving that

22 evidence?

23 A. I do. One of the Alisics. I remember Farouk Rizic. I remember

24 Hamdija Kurtovic. I remember Dedo Trnalic. I remember Nezir Kramo. I

25 remember Djordjes. But then it was a long time ago so the names don't

Page 5060

1 come to me now, but I have it written down and I could look at that.

2 Besides, I was involved in a car accident recently and I can't really

3 think of any more names right now.

4 Q. Who was it that killed these people?

5 A. Well, I wouldn't really -- well, it's difficult for me to say it

6 right now, who killed those men. I know some of them and we see one

7 another in Prijedor, we talk. They talk to me. So it's rather difficult

8 for me to say it in public, because I have returned to my part of

9 Prijedor, and how would these people look at me, how would they see me?

10 It will be rather difficult. You know, all sorts of things happen.

11 Q. I understand --

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Maybe I could suggest

15 to my learned friend, Ms. Baly, whether she would like the witness --

16 perhaps she could like to ask the witness whether he would give us the

17 names in a private session.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I think she will determine that, whether

19 she wants the evidence --

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Perhaps I took too much

21 liberty. That was just a suggestion.

22 MS. BALY:

23 Q. I'm not going to ask you to name the persons who did the killing,

24 just what ethnicity were they and what was their occupations?

25 A. You mean what ethnic group were those who were killed or those who

Page 5061

1 killed them?

2 Q. Firstly, those who killed them.

3 A. Those who killed them, these were ethnic Serbs, the ones who

4 killed them.

5 Q. And they killed ethnic Muslims; is that correct?

6 A. They killed Muslims and Croats.

7 Q. And were the killers members of the army and/or the police?

8 A. Well, there were both kinds. Some were members of the -- this

9 military, the Serb military, and some members of the police, but there

10 were some civilians too who would come to the camps, and if they had

11 something against someone, then they would come from outside of the camp.

12 There were such cases too, not many but there were.

13 Q. Let's turn now to your arrival at the camp, that is, at Keraterm

14 camp. You and the other detainees were mistreated upon your arrival at

15 the camp. That's correct, isn't it?

16 A. Yes, we were mistreated. First at the checkpoint where we

17 entered, where we got off the buses when Banovic, I think his name was

18 Predrag, he was there. He was frisking us. He was looking for money and

19 mis -- beat us.

20 Q. And then you were taken to Room 2 and you were subsequently

21 beaten; is that correct?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. And you gave some evidence that you were beaten by five

24 assailants, including Zoran Zigic, Duca Knezevic, Predrag Banovic, and

25 Goran Lajic. My question is, Predrag Banovic and Goran Lajic were guards

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Page 5063

1 in the camp. That's correct, isn't it?

2 A. That is correct. I first came to know Banovic when I arrived at

3 Keraterm.

4 Q. Thank you. And there was one other person and you didn't want to

5 name that person. Would you be prepared to name that person if we moved

6 into closed session?

7 A. I gave a statement in The Hague when I was interviewed. His name

8 was taken down there. That was a man who was very young. He was without

9 a father, and the mother worked. And he and his brother, I think, were

10 misled and were under the influence of Zigic, his talk. So most probably

11 this young man followed their directives.

12 Q. Was this person a guard in the camp as well?

13 A. I didn't see that, that he was a guard. No, I did not see that,

14 but he was present when my son and I were beaten.

15 Q. And you also said earlier that a number of prisoners, detainees,

16 were beaten around that time. Is that correct?

17 A. That is correct. When we were -- when we took count and when we

18 were going to the hospital, we were 17.

19 Q. And you indicated that the 17 were beaten again by Zigic Knezevic,

20 Banovic, Lajic, and you said some others. Will you name the others that

21 you referred to?

22 A. I know that Zigic beat this Albanian who died. He didn't give --

23 anyone to approach him to give him water so worms started coming out of

24 his body, and he died. And the other one was in the same room with my

25 son, and they shared a place to sleep.

Page 5064

1 Q. I'm asking you about the identity of the beaters, those who beat

2 the prisoners. Apart from the names you've given, who were the other

3 people who participated in the beating?

4 A. There were others, but right now -- yes, there were many other

5 guards who were taking people out and beating them. There were -- on one

6 occasion when I was at the door, all I can say is this: I saw Sikira

7 talking of a dog, and people said, "Get out of there because there's

8 Sikira with a dog." And I don't know if he was -- what, what that dog was

9 doing, if it was following him or not.

10 Q. Do you know the full name of this person Sikira?

11 A. I don't. I know that he worked at the cellulose factory, and I

12 know some other details that I heard. My wife -- a woman told me that he

13 had killed his -- her husband and that he had killed many people, that he

14 was issuing orders and other things. And the name of this killed person

15 was Ahmet Mujadzic.

16 Q. What was the name of the factory where this person Sikira worked?

17 A. The factory was called Celuloza.

18 Q. And what position did this person occupy in Keraterm camp?

19 A. He was like a perpetrator of mistreatment against these inmates.

20 I don't know what his rank was, but he did other things in places where he

21 was a boss of these soldiers. That's what I know.

22 Q. After you, your son, and the other prisoners had been beaten, it's

23 the case that your son called on his friend Drasko Dosen for help, and you

24 ended up being taken to the hospital. You agree with that?

25 A. I agree with that, that Drasko and allegedly on the instigation

Page 5065

1 of -- his brother played the biggest role in this because he was good

2 with this Dr. Barudzija so that we all ended up in the hospital and spent

3 a period of time there.

4 Q. You, however, were not treated at the hospital, were you, not

5 treated for your injuries?

6 A. That is correct. We couldn't be treated because there was no

7 electric power. There were medicines, but we didn't get any. I know that

8 a doctor came into my room and said, "Ganic, I cannot approach you. I was

9 told that if I approach you that they will burn down my home and my summer

10 house." That was Dr. Stojnic.

11 Q. What ethnicity was or is Dr. Stojnic?

12 A. Dr. Stojnic is of Serb ethnicity. There was also Dr. Rasic. He

13 was a Muslim, but he did not dare come close to us, to give us any help,

14 because at that time there was a lot of chauvinist-minded people. And he

15 couldn't stay there, eventually left the hospital.

16 Q. What do you mean by "chauvinist-minded people"?

17 A. I want to say that we were Muslims. We were of Muslim religion.

18 And the Serbs were different and Croats, and they called us chauvinists,

19 nationalists, things like that.

20 Q. In any event, you were not treated at the hospital; instead, you

21 were returned to Keraterm camp in a seriously injured condition. Would

22 you agree with that?

23 A. That is correct. We were seven in a small truck. I think it was

24 of a TAM make. We boarded, beaten up as we were, and the driver of the

25 truck took us to the brick factory, and there he was inside. He drove

Page 5066

1 around at great speed, and people were saying, "Let's put them in a

2 furnace." Those were the threats that they issued. I know that place,

3 the brick factory. And then at that point somebody cursed and said, "Take

4 them to the camp."

5 Q. So what happened on your return to Keraterm camp is that you and

6 the other detainees who had been in the hospital were again mistreated

7 during the journey back to Keraterm; would you agree with that?

8 A. I agree with that, and when we were brought back to Keraterm,

9 Drago came to the checkpoint, that is to the gate. Drago, I forget his

10 last name. He came and brought some documents. He said, "Ganic, you have

11 to sign this. From today on, we no longer live with Muslims and Croats,

12 and you will sign off that, on this document, whereby your property is now

13 mine." And my house and my business and all that was to be -- to become

14 his own. Rutovic [phoen], that was his name. I said, "Listen, Drago, I

15 do not want to deal with that now. But can you go and bring me some

16 food?" He said that he would do that. And later on, my wife told me that

17 he came to the house, that he gave her all those documents and -- but

18 later on, I was taken to Omarska.

19 Q. That was after some few days of lying in your room in an injured

20 state; that's right, isn't it? Did you hear the question, Mr. Ganic?

21 A. Yes, I did. And that is correct. It wasn't several days, two or

22 three days at the most, before I was taken to Omarska. They put us on a

23 bus. At that time, those who were Meho from Brezicani, a policeman. Meho

24 Kapetanovic, the town hodza, the Muslim cleric was there, Hamdija Cepic, a

25 busload of people. And from there we were taken to Omarska.

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Page 5068

1 Q. And when you were in Omarska, you were again interrogated; that's

2 correct, isn't it?

3 A. When we arrived at Omarska, the bus driver was a neighbour of mine

4 who worked at the transportation company. He was observing the

5 situation. He unloaded us there. And we were asked to raise three

6 fingers against the wall and face the wall. Then they started mistreating

7 us, asking us whether we had any money. Some were immediately taken to be

8 interrogated. There was an office upstairs above the restaurant, and some

9 went up there, and a few of us were left to be interrogated the next day.

10 Q. How much weight did you lose as a result of being detained in the

11 Keraterm and Omarska detention camps?

12 A. I didn't understand the question.

13 Q. How much body weight did you lose as a result of being detained in

14 the Keraterm and Omarska detention camps?

15 A. I weighed 83 kilograms before the war, and I -- my weight dropped

16 down to 48 kilograms.

17 Q. What other health problems did you suffer as a result of being

18 beaten at Keraterm camp?

19 A. I had other problems, because I had my head fractured when Zigic

20 beat me. On one side, I have impaired vision and hearing. I couldn't

21 move about for a long period of time. So later, I was taken to

22 Switzerland, where I received treatment.

23 Q. What financial consequences did you suffer?

24 A. I had not a red cent, nor did my wife or my family, so that we

25 were helped by Mr. Maric. He gave us 600 marks so that the family could

Page 5069

1 go to Zagreb. We had nothing.

2 Q. What about prior to your detention in the camps? What was your

3 financial position at that time?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, the witness appears to be upset.

5 Mr. Ganic, are you all right? Are you in any distress?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation], I have high sugar levels, madam,

7 fairly sick. My health is in -- my health is not very good, and I also

8 recently was in a car accident, so I'm still recovering from that.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you like -- are you in a position to

10 continue?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can. I can continue.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

13 MS. BALY:

14 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Ganic, but I just have one question for you, and

15 what I'd like you to do is just say briefly and generally what was your

16 financial position before you were taken to the camps?

17 A. I was well-off at that time. Both myself and my two sons all had

18 private businesses so we were fairly well-off. We had security. We

19 worked hard but we had means. But later on, it turned out that we were

20 left penniless.

21 Q. Who took your means?

22 A. Zoran Zigic took whatever I had made in my life.

23 MS. BALY: Thank you, Mr. Ganic.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic?

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a few

Page 5070

1 questions.

2 Re-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

3 Q. Mr. Ganic, please, can you tell me the person who was leading the

4 dog, was his nickname Faca?

5 A. From what I know, when the dog followed him, I believe they told

6 me Sikira, but I cannot say 100 per cent because he was away from the door

7 where I was. And when the inmates came in, they said Sikira, called

8 Faca. I think that's what they called him.

9 Q. Was that the man who shot the man in Room 2 on -- who was sitting

10 on a barrel?

11 A. No, I don't know that.

12 Q. Another thing, please, in the cross-examination a moment ago, I

13 believe that it's in the transcript, a response you gave, that your son

14 was an employer of -- the employer of your son. Can you say whether

15 Drasko ever worked to your sons?

16 A. No, never. Drasko worked in a restaurant nearby where we lived.

17 Q. But the restaurant had nothing to do with you and your family; is

18 that correct?

19 A. No, nothing.

20 Q. Today you said that on that day, 17 men were taken to the

21 hospital. Is it true that the majority of these men were the men that the

22 Kajin brothers did not know at all?

23 A. From what I learned from other men, Kajin had nothing to do with

24 that, only Zoran Zigic, Goran Lajic, Banovic and the others.

25 Q. Mr. Ganic, I think we have a misunderstanding here. My question

Page 5071

1 to you was -- if there is no objection, I think that it is clear that we

2 have a misunderstanding here. My question really is: Is it true that the

3 Kajin brothers did not know at all a majority of the 17 people who they

4 helped take to the hospital?

5 A. No. There was some from Kozarusa, Hambarine, Carakovo,

6 Rizvanovici, Puharska, all the surrounding villages, and I believe that he

7 did not know these men.

8 Q. Is it true that this person named Maric who helped you get your

9 family out was an ethnic Serb?

10 A. It is true he is of Serbian ethnic background, and I said that he

11 gave my son 600 marks when he and his wife were leaving Prijedor. When we

12 arrived in Germany, we asked whether -- you know, if he -- we wanted to

13 give the money back, but he did not want to take it.

14 Q. So does that mean that there were also Serbs among those who tried

15 to help?

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I believe the witness may not have

17 heard the question.

18 Q. Mr. Ganic, do you hear me?

19 A. I do. No.

20 Q. Is it correct that there were also a number of people among Serbs

21 who wanted, so far as they could, to help?

22 A. That is correct. Mara Tokmadzic gave money so that Zigic would

23 not kill her. He also stabbed her. It is also true that Nikica, my

24 neighbour, saved my younger son so that Zigic did not slit his throat.

25 Q. So is it your opinion that it wasn't all the Serbs who were guilty

Page 5072

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Page 5073

1 of things that were -- that happened but only some of them?

2 JUDGE MAY: That's not really a question for him. That's a

3 question we have to decide.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I withdraw the

5 question, and that concludes my questioning.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

7 Mr. Ganic, that concludes your testimony and you are released.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you. It's been long.

9 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Your next witness, Mr. Rodic.

11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour. For the

12 next witness, who was another victim -- or, rather, experienced Keraterm,

13 he asked for protection measures, that is, a pseudonym, image and voice

14 distortion. The witness at present lives in Prijedor and here -- he fears

15 both for himself and his family, if other people know that it was he who

16 said -- to testified about certain things.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: The application is granted.

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Could we then go into private session

19 while we are waiting for the witness to come in until the links are put

20 back in order.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 5074

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7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are we in open session? Yes.

13 MR. RODIC:

14 Q. [Interpretation] It is true that before the war, you worked as a

15 haulier in the Prijedor area; isn't it?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Can you tell us something more about the end of April, when

18 certain changes took place in Prijedor?

19 A. Well, listen, at that time, I was to take some merchandise from

20 Ciglane, but then I reached the bridge and I saw some people there, and as

21 I came close, I thought, well, it must have been some guards, but I went

22 through the brick yard, and as I was on my way to the brick yard, they

23 stopped me and said, "What are you doing here?" I said, "I'm going to get

24 some merchandise." And they just said, they said, "What are you doing

25 there?" I said nothing.

Page 5077

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Page 5078

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note there is too much

2 interference.

3 A. But I turned back home and did nothing -- could do nothing about

4 that merchandise.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you. There is a great deal of

6 interference. The interpreters can barely make out what the witness is

7 saying.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: The interpreters are having difficulty?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, indeed, Your Honour, yes, indeed. Not

10 hearing but making out what the witness is saying because of the

11 interference.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you continue, Mr. Rodic, and we will see

13 whether there is an improvement. I should say we are going to stop at ten

14 minutes to 1.00 for the break.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness DM, can you tell us when and where were you arrested in

17 1992?

18 A. I was arrested from my yard on the 29th of June. That is where I

19 was arrested. I was at home and I was taken to Keraterm.

20 Q. Can you tell us who arrested you on the 9th of June, 1992?

21 A. Well, listen, it was troops, they searched the house, and 25

22 people went to Keraterm from my street.

23 Q. [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 A. That's right.

Page 5079

1 Q. Thank you. And how did those troops take you there?

2 A. Well, there was a bus and we boarded the bus and they took us to

3 Keraterm. And they were there at the weigh bridge. They took our names

4 down and I spent all the time in Room 2.

5 Q. I'll come to that later.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, Mr. Ryneveld is on his feet.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. In view of the protective

8 measures, I don't know whether counsel intended at line 4225 to actually

9 put the name of the street in the question. If he did, fine, but if not,

10 I just wonder whether, out of an abundance of caution, we might want to

11 edit that, if there is some relevance to that and the protective

12 measures.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: It will be redacted, yes.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. And when the military put you on those buses, did they take you to

17 Keraterm directly or did those buses stop somewhere on their way?

18 A. No, they did not. We only went to Kozara Prevoz and Kozara Prevoz

19 took us to Keraterm, and I spent all my time in Keraterm.

20 Q. When you say Kozara Prevoz, do you mean the company Kozara Putevi,

21 Kozara Roads, which at that time housed the army staff above Keraterm?

22 A. Yes, yes, yes, that's what I mean, Kozara Putevi, Kozara Roads,

23 and I said Kozara Prevoz, Kozara Transport. I'm sorry.

24 Q. When they brought you to that army staff at Kozara Putevi, was it

25 somebody there who decided where those buses should proceed?

Page 5080

1 A. Well, I guess some people were saying Omarska, some others

2 something, but we were all taken to Keraterm.

3 Q. And when you -- when your buses entered Keraterm, did you

4 recognise somebody at the weigh bridge who took your particulars?

5 A. Yes, one, I can't remember his last name, he worked in the mine

6 before. He was the one who took our particulars down.

7 Q. If I heard you well, was his nickname Bato?

8 A. Yeah, yes, that's what people called him.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is sorry but we did not catch

10 the name. The witness said the name of the man but we did not catch it.

11 MR. RODIC:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Did this Bato wear a uniform?

13 A. Yes, he did.

14 Q. Could you describe the uniform?

15 A. Well, they all had same uniform, similar uniforms. I mean a

16 military one, not a police one.

17 Q. At that moment, at the time when Bato took your particulars down,

18 did somebody else come to the weigh bridge?

19 A. Yes, Zigic came up, he came -- he came up to me and said, "Do we

20 know each other from before?" I said, "How could we?" And he said, "When

21 I come, you have to report." So when he called out my name out the next

22 morning, I reported. Well, he didn't really beat me, I can say that, and

23 that's the most important thing.

24 Q. Tell me, at the time as you were entering Keraterm, did somebody

25 tell you why you had been brought there and what would happen to you?

Page 5081

1 A. Well, listen, nobody really told me anything. This Bato who took

2 my name down, he knew me. That is, he asked me what my name was although

3 he knew it, because we worked together. I worked at that brick yard. I

4 came there to load the earth there.

5 Q. Will you please wait when I ask you a question? Will you please

6 pause until my question is interpreted and then answer it, to avoid

7 speaking in one voice?

8 Did somebody at the very beginning, after you arrived at Keraterm,

9 did anyone tell you that you would be interrogated?

10 A. Well, yes. Even when we set off, we were told, "You are only

11 going for interrogation and you will be let -- allowed to go home

12 immediately afterwards."

13 Q. And who was it that told you that?

14 A. Well, listen, we were told that. There were a number of people

15 who said, "You'll only be interrogated and then you'll get back home."

16 Q. And were you put in Room 2 as soon as you arrived?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us, as you entered that room, how many people were

19 accommodated there approximately?

20 A. Well, there could have been about, I don't know, about 200, 250,

21 thereabouts.

22 Q. And where did you put up in that room?

23 A. Yes, I was given a pallet, and that is where I put up.

24 Q. Which part of the room were you in?

25 A. I was to the right, to the right, towards the bottom of the room,

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Page 5083

1 in the rear part of the room.

2 Q. During your stay in Keraterm, were you interrogated by anyone?

3 A. I was.

4 Q. Could you tell us something more about it?

5 A. Well, I was there, and I was taken for examination, naturally. I

6 was taken upstairs for examination. Banovic took me there, and then I was

7 brought back to that room, and nobody harmed me.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, if it's a convenient time, we would

9 take the break now.

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness DM, we are going to adjourn for lunch.

12 We'll resume at 2.30 p.m. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss

13 your evidence with anybody, and that includes the members of the Defence.

14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.50 p.m.

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Page 5084

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Rodic. Please continue.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness DM, can you tell us, in relation to when you arrived, when

5 were you taken to be interrogated and how did it go on?

6 A. I went to be interrogated maybe 20 days after my arrival.

7 Q. Did somebody escort you to the room where you were interrogated?

8 A. Yes. It was Banovic.

9 Q. Had you known him before?

10 A. Yes, I did know him from before.

11 Q. Do you know who interrogated you?

12 A. Brane Siljeg.

13 Q. Was he a regular policeman, an active-duty policeman?

14 A. He used to work at the MUP before. He was -- I don't know what.

15 Q. While you were interrogated, did anybody mistreat you?

16 A. I don't know. There was not much. Brane was just asking me some

17 questions about Muslims.

18 Q. Did anybody beat you at that time?

19 A. No, nobody did.

20 Q. When you talked about how you were placed in Room 2, did anybody

21 advise you where to find a spot in that room?

22 A. No, nobody could give me any advice. I went there to that room,

23 and that's where I was.

24 Q. Were detainees in the room told to face the wall and not to look

25 outside by anyone?

Page 5085

1 A. That, that was only when that tragedy happened.

2 Q. When you're referring to the tragedy, to the incident, are you

3 referring to the incident that took place at the end of July in Keraterm?

4 A. Well, yes, that's when it happened. I don't know exactly the

5 date.

6 Q. Do you remember whether that morning following the incident, Adnan

7 Bahonjic was called out of your room?

8 A. Well, I can't remember that exactly. I don't recall.

9 Q. After this incident, were you allowed to come out of the rooms?

10 A. No. I did not leave the room for three days straight.

11 Q. Do you know a detainee called Aco Zeric?

12 A. Well, yes.

13 Q. Did he have more freedom in comparison to the others, including

14 you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was there any specific time when Duca, Cupo, Zigic appeared at

17 Keraterm, or was it not the case?

18 A. Well, they entered whenever they wanted to.

19 Q. Did somebody bring you food while you were detained in Keraterm?

20 A. Well, yes. My wife.

21 Q. Can you tell us something more about it?

22 A. She would find a guard at the gate, and that's where she would

23 come.

24 Q. When she would leave the food for you at the gate, how would you

25 get it?

Page 5086

1 A. Well, it depended. Sometimes somebody went and would collect the

2 food for everybody and would bring it over.

3 Q. Did it ever happen that you could make contact with your wife?

4 A. Yes. I only once made contact with my wife, at the very

5 beginning.

6 Q. Was that at the entrance gate to Keraterm?

7 A. Yes. That was at the entrance gate.

8 Q. Can you tell us what kind of food did you receive in Keraterm?

9 A. Well, it was cooked and it -- but the food could not be as

10 home-made cooking.

11 Q. What is -- can you sort of assess the quality of that food? What

12 is your impression?

13 A. It was cooked, but sometimes it was not really warm, and it also

14 depended on who was on duty, whose shift was on duty.

15 Q. While you were at Keraterm, can you tell us approximately how many

16 guards would you see in a single shift?

17 A. Well, about five or six guards per shift, about.

18 Q. Did they have any fixed areas at Keraterm which they covered, or

19 was it otherwise?

20 A. Well, yes. They had fixed places.

21 Q. Can you tell us where would you see them most often?

22 A. Around the weigh hut, and when we would go to the toilet, that's

23 where they were.

24 Q. Can you tell us when did you feel the safest during your stay at

25 Keraterm?

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Page 5088

1 A. Well, listen, I felt the safest during Kole's shift, Kajin's

2 shift.

3 Q. During your stay at Keraterm, were you able to be outside of the

4 room?

5 A. Well, we couldn't all the time. It all depended on the guards who

6 were on duty, whether they would let us out or not.

7 Q. Were there situations when you saw other armed men in the -- other

8 than the guards who worked at Keraterm?

9 A. Yes. There were some whom I did not know. Some of them were

10 entering our rooms.

11 Q. Who were these men? To what organisation did they belong?

12 A. They were wearing uniforms.

13 Q. Were these soldiers, policemen, civilians? What did you see?

14 A. No, no. They were not civilians. They were soldiers.

15 Q. Can you tell us anything about the situation with water while you

16 were at Keraterm?

17 A. As far as water is concerned, we did have water, and we also were

18 getting water by water tankers. That was the drinking water.

19 Q. Were you ever in a position to use that water to wash yourself?

20 A. Yes. There were -- there was a possibility to wash yourself, but

21 we used the water that was coming mostly for drinking, one that was being

22 brought in.

23 Q. Do you perhaps know who brought this -- who was bringing this

24 water in the water tank?

25 A. Yes, I knew that one person. He used to work at the utility

Page 5089

1 company. Now I forget his name.

2 Q. Before your arrival at Keraterm, did you know Kajin?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Can you tell us a little bit more? What did you know about him

5 before the war?

6 A. Well, listen, I don't know how to express myself. He was all

7 right.

8 Q. While you were staying at Keraterm, did you ever see Kajin do

9 anything bad to anyone, abuse him, mistreat him?

10 A. As far as Kajin is concerned, he never did anything like that. I

11 left on the 6th, and I never saw him do anything like that.

12 Q. Did Kajin make any contacts with the prisoners?

13 A. Yes, he did. Often he said, "I'll help you as much as I could,"

14 and things like that.

15 Q. Did he talk to you while you were outside or while you were

16 inside? How was it?

17 A. He talked outside, and he occasionally would come in and he would

18 say, "Well, I'll let you out now because of the heat and everything."

19 Q. According to you at that time, in your opinion and taking into

20 account everything you experienced there, could an individual change a

21 situation in a significant way?

22 A. No, but Kajin helped us. Kole also helped us. Everybody had

23 weapons there. Nobody could solve things on their own.

24 Q. Do you know whether prisoners were ever taken to the hospital?

25 A. Yes, they were taken to the hospital. I know Redzo Radic, Huso

Page 5090

1 Ganic, and others. I know them, but I cannot remember all their names.

2 Q. Can you tell us, until when did you stay at Keraterm?

3 A. Until the last day. Until it was closed, I stayed in that room.

4 Q. And what happened after Keraterm?

5 A. Then we were taken to Trnopolje.

6 Q. Until when were you at Trnopolje?

7 A. Well, I was there for another 11 days.

8 Q. And were you released home after that?

9 A. Yes. I went back to my home.

10 Q. During your stay at home, after having been released from Keraterm

11 and Trnopolje, did anything happen to you?

12 A. Yes, I again had problems. I was threatened with Zolja, and I did

13 not leave my house until 1995.

14 Q. Do you live in your house now with your family?

15 A. Yes. I got my house back on the 23rd of April, nineteen ninety --

16 of last year.

17 Q. Just one more question. In a situation -- had you seen Kajin do

18 anything bad to either you or to others or if you had heard from others

19 about him having done harm to anybody there, would you have given evidence

20 about that?

21 A. I heard nothing bad either about Kajin or about Kole, and this is

22 what I wanted to say.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. This

24 concludes my examination-in-chief.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

Page 5091

1 Any cross-examination?

2 MR. GREAVES: No questions, thank you.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan?

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence:

5 Q. I'm asking questions on behalf of Kole.

6 MR. LAWRENCE: I think he can only see me there.

7 THE REGISTRAR: No, he can also see you there.

8 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you.

9 Q. Can you see me, Witness DM?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness DM, you are being asked whether you can

11 see counsel. Did you hear the question, Witness DM?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

13 MR. LAWRENCE:

14 Q. Is the answer "yes," Witness DM?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. I'm only going to ask you very few questions on behalf

17 of Kole. You've told us that you felt safest during his shift and

18 Kajin's. Did you feel safest during Kole's shift because he never beat

19 anybody?

20 A. Yes. He also let us be outside, because it was very hot during

21 that period.

22 Q. Did you also feel safest on his shift because he never allowed

23 anyone else to beat detainees on his shift?

24 A. Well, yes. This is why we felt the safest. This is when we could

25 sleep at peace.

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Page 5093

1 Q. Is it right that he never encouraged anyone to beat any detainee?

2 A. I know 100 per cent that he did not.

3 Q. Thank you. Did he also try to help detainees to reduce the level

4 of their misery?

5 A. Yes. That is certain. So far as he could, he helped us.

6 Q. Do you mean by that that he -- you couldn't see how he could have

7 done more to help you in his circumstances?

8 A. Listen, he couldn't have done anything more in his circumstances,

9 not without being threatened.

10 Q. Threatened by who?

11 A. I don't know myself, but I -- I know that such things happened but

12 I don't know who it was.

13 Q. Yes. But who do you mean? What category of people do you mean

14 might have threatened him?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the answer? It

16 was not quite audible.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness DM, please repeat the answer. We didn't

18 hear it.

19 A. Well, listen, there were his own, his guards, who may have

20 mistreated people, people that were around.

21 MR. LAWRENCE:

22 Q. Did you ever see any of the guards on his shift mistreat anybody?

23 A. No, I did not see it, but, for instance, Duca Knezevic was one of

24 those who would come in, who would come from the road.

25 Q. But he was never allowed on to Kole's shift, was he?

Page 5094

1 A. Yes. But he would come -- he would walk on the road and he would

2 swear and curse.

3 Q. Yes. But he was never allowed to do that on Kole's shift by Kole,

4 was he?

5 A. Yes, that is correct. He couldn't do that on Kole's shift.

6 Q. Thank you. And is it right that what you've had to say about Kole

7 was also the general reputation which Kole had amongst detainees?

8 A. Of course. We all talked about it. "Tonight is Kole's shift. It

9 will be easier for us."

10 Q. And you've told us that you were taken to Keraterm on the 9th of

11 June, and you stayed at Keraterm until the 5th of August, which was when

12 it closed down. So is what you have just had to say to me --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- in answer to my questions your experience of Kole over all that

15 period?

16 A. Yes. That is the experience of all that period that I had with

17 Kole.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness DM.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.

20 Mr. Ryneveld.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

23 Q. Now, Witness DM, please clarify something for me because I'm not

24 clear about your evidence as to when you were arrested. I believe when

25 you first testified I heard you say you were arrested on the 29th of June,

Page 5095

1 and then counsel responded by asking you if you were arrested on the 9th

2 of June. Which of those two dates was it?

3 A. 9th of June, that is when I was arrested. It was a Tuesday. I'll

4 never forget that.

5 Q. So the 9th of June not the 29th. Is that correct, sir?

6 A. That is correct. The month was the sixth one, that is June, and

7 the 9th was the date.

8 Q. Thank you for clarifying that. Now, as I understand it, you and a

9 whole bunch of people on your street, about 25 of them, were arrested and

10 put on a bus. What was the reason you were arrested? Can you tell us?

11 A. Well, listen, I was at home going -- doing something about the

12 house. I didn't do anything. Only because I was a Muslim, nothing else.

13 Q. And the people who were arrested with you, were their

14 circumstances similar to yours; in other words, they were arrested because

15 of who they were rather than what they did?

16 A. Well, we couldn't do anything. We were all in our respective

17 homes. They collected us from homes, and that is how they collected us

18 and took us to the camp.

19 Q. And they took you to Keraterm camp on these buses; is that

20 correct?

21 A. That's right. That is correct.

22 Q. Now, upon arrival at the -- at Keraterm camp, do you remember

23 approximately what time of day that would have been on the 9th of June?

24 Was it morning, afternoon, evening?

25 A. In the afternoon. They came to my house around 2.00, perhaps,

Page 5096

1 about that time, and then they took us to Keraterm. So the time it took

2 to collect us all together, it could have been 5.00.

3 Q. And at the time you arrived, was anyone mistreated upon your

4 arrival?

5 A. Well, yes. There was one, but he doesn't come from Gomjenica.

6 He's from Kozarac, and he was ill-treated immediately. He was taken off

7 and to a side, and he was beaten straightaway.

8 Q. What kind of people or what kind of person was beating him?

9 A. Well, listen, men, those were military, those guards. They took

10 him aside. I couldn't really see it. Perhaps they were beating in the

11 room.

12 Q. You say you didn't see it. Did you just hear the fact that this

13 individual was beaten?

14 A. Yes. And I heard him when he joined us. He was all deformed; he

15 couldn't see anything. But who was it that beat him, I don't know.

16 Q. Did you see him being taken aside when you got off the bus?

17 A. Yes. They took him away straightaway. Because he came from

18 Kozarac, they separated him from us and took him aside.

19 Q. And just so that I'm clear from your evidence, the people who took

20 him away, aside, those were guards who were inside the Keraterm compound;

21 is that correct?

22 A. That's right, yes, guards from the Keraterm compound.

23 Q. How many shifts were there at Keraterm compound?

24 A. Well, there was from 7.00 to 7.00, then in the evening 7.00 then

25 until 7.00 in the morning. There were two shifts.

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Page 5098

1 Q. And do you know who the shift leaders were?

2 A. Well, listen, there was Sikirica and there was this Dosen.

3 Baskot, he was another shift leader. And after the tragedy another man

4 came and ...

5 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter is sorry, but did not catch

6 the other person who came. The end of the answer is:

7 A. When that man came, nobody harmed us again.

8 Q. During the course of your evidence, sir, you've made frequent

9 evidence to during Kole's shift and during Kajin's shift. Were they shift

10 commanders of shifts?

11 A. Well, there were also -- I don't think they were leaders, as far

12 as I know. I don't think they were shift leaders, to my mind. Whenever

13 they were there they protected us and they allowed us to come out for an

14 hour or two, to get refreshed, to wash our faces.

15 Q. Well, let's just think about what you've been telling us, sir.

16 You've talked about Kole's shift, people talked about Kole's shift, and

17 people talked about Kajin's shift. What did that mean to you? Did it

18 mean to you that it was their shift?

19 A. Well, yes. When they were shift, they would prevent others from

20 ill-treating us and so on.

21 Q. So in other words, when these people were on duty, they had the

22 power to prevent bad things from happening; is that right?

23 A. Well, yes. Most of them were good. After all, they did protect

24 us, didn't they?

25 Q. Sir, just moving on for a moment, when you were being asked about

Page 5099

1 being taken for interrogation, you were told -- I believe you told the

2 Court words to the effect that you were told you were going to be taken to

3 Keraterm only for interrogation and then you would be allowed to go home.

4 That's what you originally believed when you went to Keraterm; is that

5 right?

6 A. Why, yes. When I left home the man said, "Well, you're only

7 coming for interrogation. You're coming back, no problem." And that is

8 what I -- that is how I thought it would be. I didn't know what would

9 happen, and when I was taken for interrogation, and I was returned, and I

10 was again in Room 2.

11 Q. So what you were told originally turned out not to be true; isn't

12 that right, sir? You weren't interrogated and let go home?

13 A. It did not happen, because I stayed there until the very last day.

14 Q. And you stayed there until the very last day against your will;

15 isn't that true, sir?

16 A. That is true.

17 Q. Now, still talking about the interrogation, I believe that you

18 indicated that you were escorted for interrogation by one of the guards;

19 is that correct? This is one of the Keraterm guards came and took you

20 from Room 2 and took you upstairs to be interrogated by Brane; is that

21 correct?

22 A. It is, exactly. That is how it was.

23 Q. And this guard, he was a regular guard that you saw frequently

24 between the 9th of June and the 6th of August; isn't that right?

25 A. It is.

Page 5100

1 Q. This guard was on Kajin's shift, was he not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And his name was Banovic?

4 A. Yes, that's right. Sometimes they were there and sometimes they

5 are not there. Later on, he was taken off duty. He wasn't with Kajin.

6 Q. This Banovic who was on Kajin's shift, did he have a nickname, and

7 if so, do you remember what it was?

8 A. Can't really remember. Perhaps I knew it. Perhaps I knew it

9 before, the nickname. Can't remember it.

10 Q. Well, let me see if I can assist you, sir. Are you familiar at

11 all with an individual with the nickname of Cupo?

12 A. Cupo, yes, yes, yes, now I remember, yes, we called him Cupo.

13 Q. Right. Now, sir, when you were placed in Room 2, would you agree

14 with me that that was a very crowded room?

15 A. Well, yes, it was. We were always not less than 250.

16 Q. In a very small room, smaller than this court -- oh, sorry, you

17 don't see the size of this courtroom. It was a very small room that you

18 were in?

19 A. Well, yes, it was small, and we were very many, but it depended on

20 whose shift it was, when we could come out and get some fresh air, and we

21 would be allowed to come out for an hour or so.

22 Q. So, sir, do I understand from your evidence that it really

23 depended a lot on what shift commander was on, whose shift it was, as to

24 what the conditions were like in the camp?

25 A. Well, it really depended on whose shift it was and how we would

Page 5101

1 fare. How we fared depended on the shift. And that goes for water or

2 food also. They would bring us food and so on.

3 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that there were times when there

4 wasn't enough food?

5 A. Well, yes. There wouldn't be enough food. There wouldn't be

6 enough for all of us. And then sometimes they would let us come out,

7 number 1, number 2, number 3, depends, and then you get only some bread

8 because all the cooked food would be gone by that time.

9 Q. And there were some times that, even though there may have been

10 water, that you were not allowed access to the water?

11 A. Well, yes, it did happen now and then, but it didn't happen all

12 that often. There was a hydrant, so if the water truck did not come, then

13 the hydrant was there, so you could fill a bottle with water or something.

14 Q. That's when the power was on; right?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. And the power wasn't always on, was it, sir?

17 A. Well, I guess there was no power.

18 Q. Sir, were there also times when for days on end you wouldn't be

19 allowed out of the room, either to go to the toilet or to eat, or just not

20 allowed out of the room?

21 A. Well, yes. It happened, too, at times I didn't feel like going to

22 eat because at times we were ill-treated during meals. But you had to

23 leave the room. If you didn't, then you got into trouble.

24 Q. And that was on all shifts, isn't that right, sir? Regardless of

25 whose shift, people were sometimes mistreated on all shifts?

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Page 5103

1 A. Well, yes, it did. It did. You had to come out and go for your

2 lunch, and then ...

3 Q. And for example, the instance when Adnan Bahonjic was called out,

4 I think you told us you didn't leave the room for three days straight. Do

5 you remember telling us about that?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

7 A. Yes, that's true. We could not come out for three days.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I think that during the

9 examination-in-chief, the witness answered my question precisely if Adnan

10 Bahonjic was called out that morning, and the answer was precise, that he

11 did not know because he had not heard it. And my learned friend says --

12 that is, implies, suggests to the witness that that man Bahonjic was

13 called out and the witness had stated that.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: I'll rephrase that.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Rephrase the question, yes.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

17 Q. Sir, you do recall an incident when you didn't leave the room for

18 three days straight. You remember testifying about that? I believe my

19 friend may have put when an unfortunate incident occurred or a tragedy

20 occurred or words to that effect.

21 I'm sorry, there was a question in there somewhere, but I probably

22 didn't state it very clearly. Do you remember telling us there was an

23 incident when you didn't leave the room for about three days straight?

24 A. Yes, that's true. We did not leave the room for three days when

25 the tragedy happened, when the Room 3 got it very bad.

Page 5104

1 Q. Yes. And that wasn't by choice, was it? You didn't choose not to

2 leave the premises. You were forced to stay in the room.

3 A. Yes, we could not come out. They wouldn't let us.

4 Q. And during those three days, would you agree with me that at some

5 portion of those three days, either Kole's shift or Kajin's shift would

6 have had to have been on, considering the regular rotation of shifts?

7 A. Well, it was -- now believe me, when that happened, I know they

8 came to the door and said, "Don't come close, don't come near the door,

9 and don't let us hear -- don't let us hear anyone speak."

10 Q. I'll rephrase my question, sir, just so that you're clear about

11 what it was. Would you agree with me that towards the latter half of your

12 detention there were three regular shifts: One was Kajin's shift, one was

13 Kole's shift, and one was Fustar's shift? Would you agree with that?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

15 A. Yes, I agree.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I think that in direct examination,

17 during the direct examination, the witness never once mentioned Fustar's

18 shift. He did mention Kole's and Kajin's shifts. And in his answers, he

19 mentioned some other shift leaders, but he never mentioned Fustar. And

20 again, something is suggested to the witness so that these words are put

21 in the witness's mouth.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's cross-examination. He's able to put it to

23 him. This is cross-examination. He's not bound to confine himself to

24 evidence in-chief. He can put, put his case to the witness.

25 Please continue, Mr. Ryneveld.

Page 5105

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. As I understand your answer, sir, you agreed with my last

3 suggestion that these were the three shift commanders and that they had

4 three shifts towards at least the latter half of your period of detention;

5 is that correct? You said yes.

6 A. Yes, there were three shifts.

7 Q. And would you also agree, sir, that these three shifts would

8 change about every 12 hours? I believe you said 7.00 in the morning and

9 7.00 at night; it could have been six and six. But just in general

10 principle, two shifts in a 24-hour period?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And if we do this for three days, at some point all three shifts

13 would be involved in a three-day or -- three-day period; isn't that true?

14 A. Well, I can't really remember it. I can't say, really, whether

15 it's true or not when that happened. That, that is -- I've already spoken

16 about it.

17 Q. All right, sir. I'm not going to ask you to do the mathematics,

18 but you agree that there was three shifts, and you also agree that for

19 three days you weren't let out. Correct?

20 A. That's correct, for three days we did not come out.

21 Q. Sir, you talked about an Aco Zeric. Did you know what his full

22 name was? Was that Zlatan Zeric?

23 A. Well, I didn't know him before. Aco, Zlatan, I don't know, but he

24 strutted about as a national hero, one could put it.

25 Q. And he was a detainee as well, was he, at the camp?

Page 5106

1 A. Yes, except that he enjoyed more freedom than we did.

2 Q. Did you know why that was?

3 A. Well, believe me, I don't know that.

4 Q. Did you hear any talk about him collaborating with the Serbs?

5 A. I don't know. I'm not really abreast of things. I can't say.

6 Q. All right, sir, I understand. Now, I think you've mentioned that

7 circumstances or conditions at the camp depended considerably on whose

8 shift was on duty. You've told us that already. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Now, when you're talking about feeling the safest, you'd agree

11 with me, sir, that there were problems on all the shifts, but there were

12 fewer problems on Kole's and Kajin's shift? Wouldn't you agree with that?

13 A. I would, naturally. They couldn't prevent if something happened,

14 but it was better, yes.

15 Q. M-hmm. Now, these shift commanders, including Kole and Kajin,

16 their guards would obey them. Isn't that how they were able to make

17 things better for you?

18 A. I agree with that. Yes, that is true.

19 Q. So they were in charge of their particular shifts and exercised

20 their control over these guards, did they not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You earlier mentioned someone by the name of Sikirica. Who was he

23 and how did you know him?

24 A. I didn't know him, but I had a problem while I was in the camp.

25 Q. Tell us about that.

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Page 5108

1 What was the problem you had?

2 A. It was 1.00 after noon and somebody, I didn't know him, Marinko

3 Coric, he called me out and beat me and asked money from me, and he said,

4 "You must have money because you worked. Everybody who worked must have

5 had money." And Sikirica was there and I asked that my wife bring the

6 money, and my wife brought them the money -- and my wife brought the money

7 and give them money, but he beat me and I still suffer the effects in my

8 spine.

9 Q. When you say "he" beat you, is it Sikirica you're referring to or

10 this other man?

11 A. That other man, that other man, but Sikirica was there when I made

12 a phone call to my wife, because I said, "I don't have any money," and he

13 said, "You or your brother work, so you've got money." And Sikirica was

14 sitting there. He was there when I made a call to my wife. Sikirica was

15 sitting there. He was there.

16 Q. So Sikirica would have seen you being beaten by this other man

17 that you've referred to?

18 A. Sikirica couldn't see it, but there was another man who knew me

19 and who said, "What are you doing to him?" And he approached me and said,

20 "Did he beat you?" And I said, "No, that one didn't but this one did

21 beat me."

22 Q. I'm sorry, we have too many "he"s. I need to know who we are

23 speaking about. Did you have a conversation with Sikirica? Did he ask

24 you questions about who beat you?

25 A. No, not Sikirica. It was another one. No, not Sikirica.

Page 5109

1 Sikirica didn't ask me.

2 Q. You say Sikirica was sitting there. Was this in the weigh hut

3 you're talking about? Is that where the phone call was being made to your

4 wife?

5 A. Yes, that's where I made the call from, and Sikirica was sitting

6 there by the weigh bridge when I called my wife to bring the money.

7 Marinko Coric.

8 Q. The telephone was inside the weigh hut; correct?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. Sikirica was inside the weigh hut; correct?

11 A. Yes, he was sitting there in it, yes. He was sitting in that

12 room, yes.

13 Q. It's a small room and someone in that room would be able to

14 overhear your conversation if you're talking on the phone to your wife;

15 correct?

16 A. Well, naturally, he heard it all when I called her.

17 Q. Did you tell your wife what you wanted the money for?

18 A. Well, listen, I had problems, and when I was in the camp, they

19 came to me, and they threatened me, so I called my wife and said, "Listen,

20 it's a serious matter," and she understood what it was all about and so

21 she brought the money, and that self same Marinko waited for her, and she

22 brought the money to him.

23 Q. Did you make the phone call after you had been beaten?

24 A. Well, yes, after the beating. I had to do it. And in addition,

25 he said that it was a pretty cheap price that I paid.

Page 5110

1 Q. Did you have any obvious injuries as a result of this beating?

2 A. Yes. There are several effects. He hit me in the spine with his

3 rifle, and I still feel it in the morning when I get up.

4 Q. You said that Marinko said it was a cheap price, or what was that

5 in reference to? What was a cheap price?

6 A. He asked the money, I told him I didn't have any, and he said,

7 "You have to have money because you work." I didn't know him before. He

8 said, "You have to have money because you worked a lot."

9 Q. What did you understand Mr. Sikirica's role to be in the camp?

10 You say he was sitting in this weigh hut. Did you understand -- did you

11 know what his role in the camp was?

12 A. He was a shift commander, and I did not know him from before.

13 Q. As a result of this beating that you underwent before making this

14 phone call, were you bleeding anywhere? Were there any obvious signs to

15 your face or your head or your arms that people could see that you'd been

16 beaten up?

17 A. Well, to tell you the truth, he did not hit me in the head, only

18 in the back, to be truthful.

19 Q. Okay. Now, just a few more questions, you'll be happy to hear,

20 sir. These shift commanders, these shift guards, if they tried, I take

21 it, they were able to keep unwanted visitors out; is that correct?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. For example, they were able to keep Zigic out when they wanted

24 to?

25 A. Maybe they could; maybe they couldn't.

Page 5111

1 Q. You've told us about Knezevic being left outside, walking around,

2 cursing and swearing. They kept him out; right?

3 A. That is correct, yes. He was walking down the road, and he was

4 cursing.

5 Q. So quite clearly these shift commanders had the power to keep

6 people out if they wanted to; is that correct?

7 A. Well, yes.

8 Q. Now, did you know an inmate by the name of Redzep Grabic?

9 A. Yes, I did know him, because he used to work at the brick factory

10 and I worked there, and he was a foreman there.

11 Q. Was he with you at Keraterm?

12 A. Yes, he was. He was also beaten and taken to the hospital, then

13 brought back from the hospital and then he was deported and I never saw

14 him again.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me while I just check the transcript.

16 Q. He was beaten and taken to hospital. And did you see that happen

17 to him?

18 A. He was in the hospital and then brought back, and then he was

19 taken away.

20 Q. Do you know whether he survived Keraterm?

21 A. Yes, he did survive. He was taken to Omarska and then I don't

22 know where he took -- where they took him from there. I didn't see him

23 after 1992.

24 Q. All right. Were you present when he was beaten?

25 A. No, I was not present because they had taken him out.

Page 5112

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Page 5113

1 Q. Now, sir, I understand that at the outbreak of the war, there was

2 a call for mobilisation. Were you also called out to be mobilised?

3 A. Listen, I was -- I had a regular military assignment, but then I

4 gave it up, and after that, I wasn't going anywhere. I was at home. I

5 didn't want to be in any of the armies. I was there until 1995 on until

6 the 15th of September, and then I was again in prison for three months in

7 1995, and I was then in 1996 exchanged at Koprivna at Sanski Most.

8 Q. My question was: Did you respond -- my question was going to be:

9 Did you respond to the request for mobilisation?

10 A. No, I did not respond.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Might we just for my last two questions move into

12 private session because of the protective measures.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

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Page 5114

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17 [Open session]

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You were answering a question asked by my learned friend about

20 Kole's shift. When you talked about Kole's and Kajin's shifts, is -- were

21 their actions identical in relation to how they treated detainees?

22 A. Yes. I think that the same thing was typical for both of them in

23 relation to us.

24 Q. When you talk about Kole's and Kajin's shifts, you described them

25 as good.

Page 5116

1 A. Of course, yes, they were good, and I think they were good for

2 everyone.

3 Q. Would you describe both Kole and Kajin individually as being good

4 towards the detainees?

5 A. Of course, as far as I know.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: How is this re-examination?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, this doesn't arise. Move on to

8 another question.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is precisely because

10 of a different function of my, my client as presented in the

11 cross-examination I need to verify this witness's evidence, and I only

12 have one additional question in that regard.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead with the one additional question,

14 yes.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. In the shifts that Kole and Kajin worked, were they called by

17 their names only because they were good in those shifts and they were the

18 ones who were contacting with the inmates the most?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: The same comment.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you finished?

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I only have a few more

23 questions.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: But are they questions which arise out of

25 cross-examination? The re-examination is not an opportunity to raise new

Page 5117

1 issues. It's confined to matters that arise out of cross-examination

2 unless the Chamber allows you.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am trying to re-examine

4 on the basis of the cross-examination. And in the examination-in-chief

5 when I asked about Kole's and Kajin's shifts, the witness never described

6 these individuals, nor did they call them commander, shift commanders, or

7 shift leaders. When my learned friend asked questions in the

8 cross-examination described them in this way as if the witness had

9 described them as having those posts which is why I bring these questions

10 back.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead, but let us try and complete this as

12 quickly as possible.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I will try, Your Honour.

14 Q. Did a guard called Dragan Coric work at Keraterm, if you know?

15 Not Marinko Coric but Dragon.

16 A. There was a Coric. I think it was Marinko. His nickname was

17 Maki, that's --

18 Q. To your knowledge, did it happen or do you know whether some other

19 detainees who were able to use the telephone to call somebody or their

20 loved ones to order something and some --

21 A. Yes, it depended. The people called home and so on.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. It's totally within the Court's

24 discretion, but I am going to ask that my friend restrict himself to

25 proper re-examination. I cannot possibly see how what my friend is now

Page 5118

1 doing arises out of something that we have raised exclusively. He had an

2 opportunity to lead in chief. Re-examination is not an opportunity to

3 simply ask those questions you wish you would have asked in chief, and of

4 course it's the Court's discretion, but I must register my concern.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, the Court's ruling is that these

6 questions do not arise out of cross-examination, and we are not allowing

7 them. So unless you have a question that arises out of cross-examination

8 or unless you get the Court's permission, then you would have to stop your

9 re-examination.

10 Sir Ivan.

11 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm sorry to intervene, and I don't intervene in

12 relation to the last question that has been objected to by my learned

13 friend Mr. Ryneveld, but he did object on two occasions to questions that

14 had been asked by my learned friend Mr. Rodic which arose out of my

15 cross-examination.

16 There is no reason why my learned friend Mr. Rodic should not

17 re-examine on the cross-examination of somebody other than my learned

18 friend Mr. Ryneveld. The rule is that you can re-examine on matters which

19 have arisen in cross-examination. Mr. Ryneveld seems to have forgotten

20 that he wasn't the only one cross-examining.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I did not forget.

22 Mr. Rodic, what is your line -- next line of questioning?

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was about to give you

24 an explanation regarding the last comment from my learned friend

25 Mr. Ryneveld regarding the guard and telephone calls, because it was

Page 5119

1 really brought up for the first time in the cross-examination of my

2 learned friend, and this is why I'm coming back to that now, because it

3 arose in the cross-examination of my learned friend. It was never

4 mentioned in examination-in-chief.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead, as quickly as possible.

7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Q. Witness DM, I'm going to restate the question. In fact, I

9 apologise. You did answer that question and it is in the transcript, but

10 let me follow up on that phone call, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

11 Is it true that on that occasion, you told your wife only to bring you

12 money or a certain amount of money?

13 A. I told her about the amount that -- the money, and I said then

14 that he would -- that she would bring the money.

15 Q. Yes, I understand that, but when you picked up the phone, and

16 while you were talking on the phone with your wife, did you tell her

17 anything beyond, "Please bring such and such amount?"

18 A. I only told her that, nothing else.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the family or friends or neighbours

20 or someone else sent money to some of the detainees in addition to other

21 things that they were sending to Keraterm?

22 A. I don't know. I never followed that.

23 Q. Do you know whether any of the detainees had any money on them at

24 Keraterm and tried to use that money to procure cigarettes or anything

25 like that?

Page 5120

1 A. I never smoked myself. I've never been a smoker. So I wasn't

2 following that very much, those things. People did get cigarettes

3 somehow.

4 Q. Just to quickly finish with questions about Kole and Kajin, did

5 they -- were they, as individuals, in a position to change things, let's

6 say by their personal example? For instance, in trying to help you as

7 much as they could?

8 A. Well, yes, they helped us as much as they could, and I believed

9 that they themselves could have had problems on the part of others. I

10 know very well we were outside and he -- some people were cursing us

11 because we were let out to be outside.

12 Q. Very well. According to you, in your opinion as -- did Kole and

13 Kajin have an opportunity, as individuals, to influence the circumstances

14 at Keraterm?

15 A. No, they were not in a position to do that. An individual could

16 do nothing there.

17 Q. Can you tell me why an individual could not have done more in

18 those circumstances?

19 A. They couldn't have, because there were others. I'm 100 per cent

20 sure that Kajin would have had problems by -- from that same people, if he

21 let us out or if food was brought in.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. That

23 concludes my questioning.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

25 Witness DM, that concludes your testimony and you are released.

Page 5121

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: It is now five minutes to 4.00 and we are going

4 to adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.30. We are adjourned.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

6 3.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday the 18th

7 day of July, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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