Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5266

1 Thursday, 19 July 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, you are to continue with your next

6 witness.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In

8 relation to the next witness, I would like to ask the Trial Chamber to

9 approve protective measures since this is a person of Muslim ethnicity, a

10 person who had been to several centres in Prijedor municipality and plans

11 currently to move back to Bosnia and Herzegovina and is anxious that his

12 testimony in public session could cause problems for him and his family,

13 part of which already lives on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina

14 having returned from a third country.

15 So I should like to ask the Trial Chamber to approve a pseudonym

16 and face distortion.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the application is granted.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for the witness will be Witness DP.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 5267

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I

3 should like us to pass into private session -- into closed session.


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Page 5268

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21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, open session.

22 [Open session]


24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness DP, please tell us in which city or town

25 did you reside before the outbreak of hostilities in the territory of

Page 5269

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. In Prijedor.

3 Q. At one point, were you arrested?

4 A. Yes, on the 30th of May 1992.

5 Q. Tell us, please, where were you taken on the 30th of May?

6 A. On the 30th of May, my entire family and myself were taken to the

7 sports hall in Prijedor, and from there on, we were taken by buses to

8 Trnopolje.

9 Q. How long were you in Trnopolje?

10 A. Five days.

11 Q. Where were you taken from Trnopolje?

12 A. From Trnopolje, I was taken to the Secretariat for the Internal

13 Affairs, to the town prison.

14 Q. How long did you spend there?

15 A. Just that one night.

16 Q. Where were you taken the next morning?

17 A. The next day, around 8.00, I was put into a Black Maria and taken

18 to the Keraterm camp.

19 Q. Did you know a person named Damir Dosen from before the war?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Can you tell us where you saw the person named Damir Dosen for the

22 first time?

23 A. I saw him for the first time when I arrived at the camp, and

24 actually a couple of days after that. There were several shifts, and in

25 one of the shifts, you couldn't go outdoors for entire days, whereas in

Page 5270

1 another shift, you could be outdoors the whole time and move around the

2 entire compound. Among other people, one shift included a tall man

3 wearing a military uniform, who was a little -- standing a little bent to

4 one side, and it was his custom, when arriving at his workplace, to say,

5 "Let's go back into the dormitories," although I found this term

6 "dormitory" rather odd. However, when he issued that order, "Back to the

7 dormitories," there, near the weigh bridge, where there was a hut used by

8 the guards, another man said in an even louder voice, "Don't hurry, take

9 it easy, this shift is on duty for another ten minutes."

10 And then we started talking amongst ourselves. I was particularly

11 intrigued. I saw that it was a young man in front of us who had done

12 something humane, and I asked about his name. At first I only learned

13 that it was Kajin. I didn't discuss it much that day, but that young man

14 was a person I remarked, and I followed his movements and conduct from

15 then on.

16 Q. Is it true that people who were detained made phone calls from

17 there?

18 A. That happened sometimes, too. I think it was a man named Kajdic

19 from Cela. We always wanted to be outdoors as much as we could to get as

20 much fresh air as we could, and I happened to be near by when this Kajdic

21 asked Kajin whether he could use the phone, probably wanting to call his

22 family, and the latter told him to follow him to the weigh hut.

23 I had the idea that I, too, might ask him to use the phone because

24 I left behind a wife and two children in Trnopolje. Fifteen days prior to

25 that, my wife was discharged from hospital after having had a kidney

Page 5271

1 removed. Her wound had still not healed and needed regular dressing, but

2 it wasn't possible to get such attention. And of course, I was concerned

3 for her health.

4 The next day I decided to ask this young man, who was referred to

5 as Kajin, and I told him about the condition of my wife, and I asked him

6 if I could give him the number so he could dial it. He didn't take the

7 telephone number but told me instead to follow him to that weigh hut. I

8 waited until he was by the weigh hut, and when I started to follow him,

9 the guard who had a machine-gun between the weigh hut and the Room 1

10 shouted, "And where are you going?" To that, Kajin said that he needed me

11 there.

12 When I got there, I offered to give him the number again because I

13 couldn't imagine that I would be allowed to call myself. He pointed to

14 the telephone set and said, "Go on, use it." I called home, and

15 fortunately my wife answered. My wife Ruza answered. I was very excited,

16 and I started crying at that moment. Even now it's hard to talk about it.

17 That young man they called Kajin, he started crying, too. He

18 uttered a four-letter word and got out, left me alone there. I found that

19 inconceivable, and it was only then that this young man really gripped my

20 attention.

21 Q. Can you tell us, Witness DP, your opinion whether that gesture was

22 risky for Kajin, too?

23 A. It was a great risk. I'm aware of that. And it was much greater

24 for him than for me because I was already in danger.

25 Q. From that moment on, since you've just told us that you kept an

Page 5272

1 eye on that man and followed his every move, did he impress you as a

2 soldier, as a guard, as a shift leader, or as just a young man who wanted

3 to help and did help?

4 A. First of all, he impressed me as a humane person. He didn't

5 strike me as a soldier at all. It didn't occur to me. I followed his

6 every step, his every move. He was something like a ray of light for me

7 in that darkness over there.

8 Q. Will you please tell us, have you ever seen that man beat anybody

9 or mistreat anybody or do anything of that nature?

10 A. Beginning with the 6th of June, I was in Keraterm the whole time

11 until it was dismantled. I have already said that I was in Room 1, and

12 what I could see -- from what I could see, he only helped people all the

13 time.

14 Q. Did he come to talk with people who were detained?

15 A. Yes, he would come by. People were nervous and quarrels were not

16 uncommon, and he said, "I am protecting you to the best of my ability, and

17 you are fighting amongst yourselves." He would usually come after

18 lunchtime, after that meal we had.

19 And he encouraged us, saying, "Be patient for a while longer. It

20 won't take long. The food isn't much, I know it's nothing for you, but I

21 can't do anything about it. All I can do is protect you from mistreatment

22 by anyone. I get the same food, you know." And he said that on several

23 times.

24 Q. Tell me, please, in the period when you saw Kajin in the compound

25 of Keraterm, were there any beatings, any mistreatment of people?

Page 5273












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Page 5274

1 A. While he was on duty, there were not. In fact, he prevented it

2 from happening in case there were any visitors, which was frequent

3 occurrence.

4 Q. Do you know a man named Jovo Radocaj?

5 A. I know Jovo Radocaj very well. I passed by his house when I went

6 hunting with my group. We would stop by at his place, have coffee.

7 Q. Did you observe the moment when Jovo Radocaj came to Keraterm?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear in what kind of

10 vehicle.


12 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know a man named Zivko Knezevic?

13 A. I know Zivko Knezevic too.

14 Q. Can you tell us since when?

15 A. Since 1960.

16 Q. Can you tell us what was that man's occupation, profession?

17 A. When I met him first, he was a regular policeman in Omarska, and

18 then, as they say in the SUP, the Secretariat of the Interior, he was the

19 sector leader, and later on he was deputy commander at Omarska, and after

20 Radomir Sukalo retired, he was transferred to Prijedor as assistant police

21 chief there.

22 Q. Do you know from which position he retired?

23 A. He was -- he retired as assistant police chief of the Prijedor

24 Police Station.

25 Q. Did you have opportunity to see that man, meet with that man,

Page 5275

1 before the war?

2 A. We went hunting together before the war. We were not very close,

3 nothing like family friends, but we knew each other well.

4 Q. Did you see Zivko Knezevic in the period after the outbreak of the

5 war? Did you see him at Keraterm?

6 A. Yes, I did, several times. He would always come after people

7 died.

8 Q. What did he do then?

9 A. He would usually put together a shift that was on duty, and the

10 shift that was taking over, he made -- gestured with his hands. He looked

11 angry, judging by the movements I saw him make. I couldn't see the -- I

12 couldn't hear the words.

13 Q. You couldn't hear what was being said, but you could see that he

14 was shouting?

15 A. Yes. I could see that he was shouting.

16 Q. What kind of a man was he like? I mean, what can you tell us

17 about his character?

18 A. He was a man who evidently was born to be somebody where you

19 needed to be strict for that kind of jobs.

20 Q. Did you ever see him with the coroner who came on those occasions,

21 on those several occasions, who came to Keraterm in -- of morning, when it

22 was necessary?

23 A. He always came along, and I suppose he was the one also who

24 summoned the coroner, because he was the boss there.

25 Q. Did Zivko come to Keraterm on various occasions in other

Page 5276

1 instances, not only the one that you are mentioning?

2 A. Yes, yes. He'd also come on other occasions.

3 Q. And what was your impression, what did this man do in Keraterm?

4 A. When he came to Keraterm, it was my impression that he was the

5 commander of the Keraterm camp.

6 Q. Can you tell us where did you get this impression from?

7 A. I could see that everything was in his hands.

8 Q. Did you know somebody called Drago Tokmadzic?

9 A. Yes, I did. He was a policeman. He was usually -- he was a

10 patrolling policeman at the railway station.

11 Q. And that morning, when Drago Tokmadzic perished, did you see Zivko

12 Knezevic there?

13 A. I did. Because I could hear Drago being beaten somewhere. It was

14 behind my head somewhere. And there was Eso Islamovic, a traffic

15 policeman was with him. They were brought in their uniforms.

16 Q. Right. But will you tell us, did you see Zivko Knezevic that

17 morning?

18 A. Yes, I did. I think he was particularly angry that morning, of

19 all the times that he came there.

20 Q. Did he make some specific gesture?

21 A. Well, he walked up and down, he tossed away his cap.

22 Q. Did you see Zivko Knezevic after you came out of Keraterm?

23 A. Yes, I did. I went to see him and ask him to transfer my daughter

24 and my son-in-law to Trnopolje.

25 Q. Did he ask any money for that favour?

Page 5277

1 A. He said that money wasn't for him but for the driver who would do

2 it, and I gave 2.000 marks to have them transferred to Trnopolje.

3 Q. And is it then that you learnt that he was the commander of the

4 Prijedor II Police Station?

5 A. As we were friends, I asked him in a sort of a friendly way why

6 didn't he help me. I said that as the camp commander, he could have got

7 me out of it because he knew me and he knew that I -- that there was

8 absolutely no reason why I should be there. And he said that he was not

9 the camp commander, that he was the commander of the second police station

10 and the commander of the guards in Keraterm.

11 Q. After all this time, can you tell me, did you ever see Damir Dosen

12 again? After Keraterm, I mean.

13 A. I saw Damir -- or, rather, I was near him only twice in my life,

14 and it was there in that weigh hut and in 1994 in the green market, in the

15 marketplace in Prijedor.

16 Q. And what happened there?

17 A. He didn't recognise me. I said hello to him, and I thanked him

18 for what he had done. I thanked him for all that he had done there and

19 the way in which he helped people. We were not -- we did not spend much

20 time together.

21 Q. And after all this time, what do you think about Damir Dosen?

22 What kind of a man is he?

23 A. I think the same that I thought that day when I met him, that he

24 is a very humane young man, a young man who is always eager to help

25 others.

Page 5278

1 Q. In view of your position in this society in the country that you

2 currently live in, did you hear from any member of your association

3 anything bad about Damir Dosen?

4 A. I did not, but there is also the association of former inmates who

5 are members of the Association of Citizens of Prijedor.

6 Q. But had you ever from anyone heard anything bad or untoward about

7 Damir Dosen, would you have come to this Tribunal to tell us about your --

8 about what you remember and what you think about Damir Dosen?

9 A. I did not come here to speak about what somebody said, what

10 somebody heard, but what I personally saw.

11 Q. Would you have, however, testified had you -- if you didn't know

12 what kind of a man that was?

13 A. With regard to the population there and how he behaved elsewhere

14 in other places, I could not have testified anything about that and how he

15 treated other people, only about the time that I spent in the camp and

16 observed him.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

18 further questions.

19 I'm sorry, Your Honour. If I may, I forgot to ask one question.

20 May I?


22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Can you please tell me how did you communicate with Damir Dosen's

24 Defence?

25 A. On the satellite channel of Bosnia-Herzegovina I heard that Damir

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Page 5280

1 had been detained, and then I asked for the address. I first asked to the

2 Tribunal, but I seemed not to have had the right address. Then I heard,

3 because our association of citizens has representatives -- has members of

4 all ethnic communities so that I heard from Catholics in our association

5 that the Tribunal had been visited by Cardinal Franjo Komarica, and I

6 wrote to Banja Luka and was given the address, and then I wrote a letter

7 to Damir.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. No further

9 questions.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

11 Cross-examination, Mr. Londrovic?

12 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not have any

13 questions.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Any cross-examination?

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence:

16 Q. Witness DP, I appear on behalf of Mr. Kolundzija, known as Kole,

17 who is the first defendant in the dock. Did you know him in Keraterm?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Did you know him before Keraterm?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Was he known as a good guard at Keraterm?

22 A. Before I answer that question so that you wouldn't be surprised

23 why I didn't know any of them, but until 1975 I lived in Sarajevo, and

24 there are young people, and I simply had no opportunity to come to know

25 them.

Page 5281

1 And as for Kole's shift where he worked, this was the second -- it

2 rated second amongst the inmates. We liked best Damir's shift and then

3 came Kole's. Some preferred Kole's shift to Damir's, but there they

4 ranked about the same.

5 Q. So that was his reputation. While you were at Keraterm, did you

6 see Kole from time to time?

7 A. I must have, but he didn't attract my attention so I simply did

8 not look for him. I know I didn't.

9 Q. At any rate, did you ever see him do any harm to an inmate?

10 A. I personally did not see it.

11 Q. That is to say, you never saw him kill anybody?

12 A. I didn't.

13 Q. Beat anybody?

14 A. I didn't.

15 Q. Ill-treat anybody?

16 A. I didn't.

17 Q. Encourage anybody else to kill, beat or ill-treat anybody?

18 A. That I wouldn't know.

19 Q. No. I'm asking you what you were able to see and know. Did you

20 ever see him encourage anybody else to do any harm to any inmate?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.

24 Ms. Baly?

25 Cross-examined by Ms. Baly:

Page 5282

1 Q. Witness DP, it's fair to say that in relation to person Kole, you

2 didn't pay much attention to what he did in the camp. Would you agree

3 with that?

4 A. I focused on what Kajin was doing because he had helped me and

5 because I've already said he looked to me like a ray of hope.

6 Q. And you didn't focus on the person Kole; is that correct?

7 A. I didn't, no.

8 Q. Now, you were, if my math is correct, 66 years old when you were

9 arrested. What was your occupation at that time?

10 A. I was 61 then.

11 Q. Yes, I apologise, 61. What was your occupation at that time?

12 A. I was a pensioner too, and I had two shops of my own, a butcher's

13 and a grocer's, another shop, but they were run by my daughter.

14 Q. Why do you think you were arrested?

15 A. Well, I think I was arrested because somebody had planned it. I

16 have no idea, but it wasn't -- I wasn't the only one who was arrested as a

17 Muslim; there were many Catholics and there were also orthodox in the

18 camp.

19 Q. You hadn't done anything wrong to merit your arrest, had you?

20 A. That's right. And that is why I'm here today, to help that

21 innocent man.

22 Q. You told us, I think - and correct me if I'm wrong - that you were

23 taken to the SUP building and then you were taken to Keraterm and that you

24 remained in Keraterm -- well, no. You went to Trnopolje, but you were

25 detained at Keraterm after Trnopolje, until Keraterm closed; is that

Page 5283

1 right?

2 A. No. The other way around. From my house, I with my whole family

3 were taken to Trnopolje. From Trnopolje to the police. From the police

4 to Keraterm. From Keraterm to Omarska. From Omarska back to Trnopolje.

5 So this is the exact answer.

6 Q. So you were, in fact, detained at Omarska camp for a period of

7 time as well as being detained in Keraterm; is that right?

8 A. It is.

9 Q. When were you taken to the Omarska camp?

10 A. When the camp -- when Keraterm was about to close down.

11 Q. When you first arrived at Keraterm, you arrived with a group of

12 other persons who had been arrested. Were any of that group, including

13 yourself, mistreated upon your arrival at the camp?

14 A. I arrived in Keraterm alone in the official police car which we

15 call Black Maria, belonging to the police.

16 Q. What time did you arrive at the camp?

17 A. Around 11.00, I believe.

18 Q. Is that at night or in the day?

19 A. I said around 11.00. At night it is 2300.

20 Q. Shortly after you had arrived in the camp, you witnessed a group

21 of inmates, known as the "special treatment group," being assaulted,

22 that's correct, isn't it?

23 A. I was to be with that group at some point, but then a friend

24 advised me to leave it because a friend who had sent me was talking

25 through his hat, and that is how I just happened to remain outside that

Page 5284

1 group.

2 Q. Well, can you just explain, please, what was the nature of that

3 group and why were they called the "special treatment group"?

4 A. Well, it's a little difficult for me to answer it. That group had

5 10 to 15 people. Why was it a special group? I have no idea. I mean,

6 that is something that those who called it that should know it -- should

7 know.

8 Q. What happened to the members of that group?

9 A. Well, around three -- after three they came out, but not on all

10 the shifts. They came out and were beaten and sang and the like.

11 Q. And they were beaten by whom?

12 A. Some outsiders frequently came. The guards were not much involved

13 in that.

14 Q. And who were the outsiders?

15 A. I cannot tell you that. I don't know. How could I know who they

16 were, those uniformed guys? Often -- I mean, through stories we heard

17 that Duca often came, Tadic -- no, I'm not sure about this other one that

18 I mentioned.

19 Q. What about the Banovic brothers, were they involved in the beating

20 of this group?

21 A. Well, they were not easy. How could you put it? As far as I

22 know, they were in that group, in that shift. Whether his name was Tomo

23 Prodan or something, I'm not quite sure. Tomo I think his name was. Yes,

24 I do believe his last name was Prodan.

25 Q. And who was Tomo Prodan in the camp? What was his role in the

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Page 5286

1 camp?

2 A. Now, I'll tell you something that I am reluctant to say, but as

3 inmates talk -- I don't even know that man. He was in that group, and I

4 don't know what was he. I mean, he was on that shift. Now, what was

5 he ...

6 Q. Who was the leader of that shift?

7 A. Well, I don't know if you call it a leader or what, but it was on

8 that shift that this Prodan was, Tomo.

9 Q. Let's get back to this special treatment group. They, you say,

10 were beaten by outsiders. They were made to sing, I think you said; is

11 that correct?

12 A. That is right.

13 Q. And were they forced to pray in the Islamic -- in accordance with

14 the Islamic custom?

15 A. There were such instances, even though there were Catholics there,

16 too.

17 Q. And were they divided in two lines and forced to fight against

18 each other?

19 A. Yes, that happened, too. I was in one of such groups. It didn't

20 happen all that often. I think it didn't happen more than two or three

21 times.

22 Q. And what time of day did that happen?

23 A. Sometime after 3.00, around 4.00 or 5.00.

24 Q. And the group, that is, the special treatment group, were beaten

25 with iron bars. That's correct, isn't it?

Page 5287

1 A. Since I was in the middle of the hall, I couldn't really establish

2 with what they were beaten, but yes, they were beaten.

3 Q. How many prisoners were being beaten?

4 A. I wouldn't know the number.

5 Q. Can you give us an approximate number, please?

6 A. I can't, not even approximately. I don't want to lie.

7 Q. How many assailants were there doing the beating?

8 A. It is difficult to say that, too. There could be two or three,

9 thereabouts.

10 Q. It's a fact, isn't it, that the guards in the camp joined in that

11 beating and beat those prisoners as well as the outsiders? That's a fact,

12 isn't it, Witness DP?

13 A. Well, as I didn't know all the guards, just as I didn't know those

14 in those groups, I mean, it is possible that they did join in, but I don't

15 know. I couldn't tell the difference because they both wore uniforms.

16 Q. Witness DP, do you recall making a statement in --

17 A. What statement?

18 Q. Do you recall making a statement on the 28th of December, 1995?

19 A. In 1990, 1990?

20 Q. 1995. On the 28th of December, 1995, did you make a statement?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Will you have a look, please, Witness DP, at this document that I

23 ask you to be shown with the assistance of the usher. Witness DP, do you

24 recognise that document?

25 A. I believe this is a document about what I told about when I asked

Page 5288

1 for Damir's address from The Hague. But you didn't send me address, yet

2 you kept the document. Yes, that's it.

3 Q. Just keep that document, please, with you and look at it again.

4 It's a document that you signed; is that right? You signed every page of

5 that document, correct?

6 MR. LAWRENCE: May it please the Court, if the document is going

7 to be used in cross-examination, might the defence be shown a copy of it?

8 MS. BALY: Yes. I have what are at this stage draft translations

9 of the documents. The final translation will be forthcoming, and I have

10 copies of the document that I'm showing the witness.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Have the document distributed, to the Bench

12 as well.

13 A. I -- only I have an objection to this.

14 MS. BALY:

15 Q. Just pause for a moment.

16 A. This is the ministry.

17 Q. Now, what is your objection to the document?

18 A. The objection is that this is fabrication. To begin with, I never

19 made a statement at the Banja Luka Centre, and the signature is forged.

20 Now I remember. Now I remember. This Zijad, this Zijad in the security

21 centre in Banja Luka, there is nobody called Zijad Ibric. In Travnik,

22 they tried to ask me questions and I refused. So that it can just happen

23 that this was written in Travnik, this security centre. And there are a

24 lot of things here, people that I know, but I think that all this is made

25 up and taken out from stories of other people, I don't know whose.

Page 5289

1 Q. Well, Witness DP, is your signature on the document?

2 A. It looks like my signature, but I repeat, a man in Travnik, when I

3 was visiting my daughter, a man brought by Huse Suljanovic, tried this,

4 but I didn't want to answer any questions. But if this was written by

5 this Suljanovic, then it's a matter for a lawsuit. It's a pity I don't

6 have a lawyer here. And as for this Centre of the Security Services of

7 Banja Luka, they have nothing to do with it. You know that this is -- I'm

8 from the federation and this is Banja Luka. And at any rate, there was no

9 Zijad Ibric at the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka, and I don't

10 want to discuss it at all any more. That at least shouldn't be difficult

11 to check.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not for to you make that determination,

13 Witness. We will determine whether the document can be discussed.

14 Ms. Baly?

15 MS. BALY:

16 Q. Are you saying, Witness DP, that the signature on that document

17 looks like your signature but it is not your signature? Is that your

18 evidence?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. So you say somebody has forged your signature on the document?

21 A. Yes. It's forged. At the outset, I thought it was the letter

22 that I had written to the Tribunal looking for the address, but judging by

23 these particulars given here, I see that it's not the same document.

24 Q. What I'd like you to do is to look through that document, to read

25 through that document, and then indicate whether the particulars, the

Page 5290

1 information contained in the document, is the truth. This, I understand,

2 might take some time.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, that would take some time. If you're

4 going to continue up to the break, then it would be an idea that he could

5 use the break for that purpose.

6 MS. BALY: Yes, yes. Thank you, Your Honour. That would be

7 suitable.

8 Q. Now, let me ask you some questions about an inmate by the name

9 of -- by the nickname Aco. Do you recall that person being in Keraterm

10 camp?

11 A. Yes, it was Asmir Dzeric.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, Zeric.

13 MS. BALY:

14 Q. This person's nickname was Aco; correct?

15 A. Aco, yes.

16 Q. And what was his full name, if you know it?

17 A. Asmir Zeric or Dzeric.

18 Q. Could his full name have been Zlaten Zeric, not Asmir?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. This person Aco was an inmate who collaborated with the guards in

21 Keraterm camp; that's correct, isn't it, Witness DP?

22 A. Well, he was on friendly terms with certain shifts, selling and

23 reselling cigarettes, but not with everyone, not every shift.

24 Q. He was a person who did -- who also mistreated other inmates in

25 the camp. That's correct, isn't it?

Page 5291












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5292

1 A. Yes, if he is allowed to do that when people are taken out. Yes,

2 he was obedient.

3 Q. He, in fact, on occasion used to urinate upon other inmates.

4 That's correct, isn't it, Witness DP?

5 A. Yes, that happened, too.

6 Q. All right. Now, you indicated in your evidence earlier that there

7 were a number of shifts in Keraterm camp. Were there, in fact, three

8 shifts in the camp?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And on each shift how many guards were there?

11 A. That I don't know.

12 Q. And there was a shift leader of each of those shifts. That's

13 correct, isn't it?

14 A. I don't know what they were called. I don't know the name of that

15 position.

16 Q. Don't worry about the name of the position. There was a guard who

17 would lead the shift, who would be in charge of the other guards on each

18 of those shifts. That's correct, isn't it?

19 A. It could be that way, too, but I -- but I'm telling you, I wasn't

20 within their circle. I was on the other side.

21 Q. Now, you -- but you were able to observe these definite shifts in

22 the camp. That's correct, isn't it? You were able to observe that there

23 were three definite shifts.

24 A. Yes, there were three shifts. I said that.

25 Q. And it is the case, I suggest to you, that each of these shifts

Page 5293

1 had someone, some guard, who was in charge of the other guards on the

2 shift. That's correct, isn't it?

3 A. There might have been. There surely was, it's just that I don't

4 know what it was called.

5 Q. The situation in Keraterm camp is that the inmates were beaten on

6 a regular basis. That's correct, isn't it?

7 A. Yes, but it didn't happen regularly in all the three shifts;

8 otherwise, the three shifts would have been the same.

9 Q. One of the shifts was the worst, worse than the other two. That's

10 correct, according to your evidence?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And there was another shift that was the best of the three, and

13 that's, you say, the shift being led by Damir Dosen. That's correct?

14 A. Yes, Damir was on that shift, and moreover --

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.


17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I really don't remember the witness

18 saying at any point in the examination-in-chief that it was a shift led by

19 Damir Dosen. I would like, if the witness is being presented with some of

20 his previous testimony, that his exact words be used. I should appreciate

21 it very much if my learned friend would rephrase that.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: If that is so, Ms. Baly, perhaps you might put it

23 as a question.

24 MS. BALY: Yes, I will. Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

25 Q. The shift that Damir Dosen was on was the best of the three

Page 5294

1 shifts. That's the effect of your evidence, correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the third shift fell somewhere in between; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So that the conditions in the camp were not good on any shift,

6 were they?

7 A. There was a difference.

8 Q. Yes. But the conditions were not good on any of the shifts, were

9 they?

10 A. I have already said there was a difference.

11 Q. Yes, I understand there was a difference. But in terms of how the

12 conditions were, you would agree with me when I say the conditions for the

13 inmates in the camp overall were not good on any of those shifts, were

14 they?

15 A. They were not good, but they were different. They could be better

16 or worse or worse yet.

17 Q. Now, in your evidence you spoke of a person by the name of Jovo.

18 Now, he was a person of Serb ethnicity who was detained in the camp; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What happened to him in the camp?

22 A. Well, I used to be a good mate of Jovo. When he arrived in that

23 car, we met up immediately. He wondered at my being there, and so did I

24 at his being there.

25 Q. All right. He was about 65 years old when he was in the camp; is

Page 5295

1 that right?

2 A. Something around that. I think he is about my age.

3 Q. And he was married to a Croatian woman; is that right?

4 A. Yes, the late Mrs. Danka.

5 Q. At one stage prior to your detention and his detention in the

6 camp, did you buy a cauldron from him to make some rakija?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. And he had a big picture of Izetbegovic on his wall in his house,

9 didn't he?

10 A. Yes, he did.

11 Q. What happened to him in the camp?

12 A. When he arrived at the camp, he told me the story of what had

13 happened at his house, and while he was speaking, I saw his right foot

14 bleeding from under the shoe.

15 I asked him what that was, and he answered that they stabbed him

16 with a knife while he was being driven in the car, between his ribs, below

17 his -- the left part of his chest.

18 Q. What eventually happened to him?

19 A. I told him to go to the room where they told him to go, and to

20 stay still unless -- lest he bled too much. But in the morning, he was

21 dead, so I suppose that he had bled to death.

22 Q. What happened to the person Emsud Bahonjic?

23 A. Emsud Bahonjic was taken out for ten nights running, and he

24 succumbed.

25 Q. Do you mean by that he was beaten for ten nights in a row, and

Page 5296

1 then he died? Is that what you mean?

2 A. I didn't say it was in a row. He wasn't being taken out during

3 certain shifts. But since he's dead, something must have happened. That

4 was during the night, so you couldn't really know.

5 Q. He was taken out for ten nights, I think you said. What happened

6 to him when he was taken out on each of those occasions?

7 A. Since he was taken out at night, I couldn't see what had happened,

8 but they probably beat him. That's what I said.

9 Q. Did you see him the next day, or the next days, after he'd been

10 taken out?

11 A. No, I didn't. I was in Room 2 -- 1, and he was in Room 2. I

12 didn't go there.

13 Q. Was he beaten so much that his kneecaps and joints were broken,

14 and did he have to be carried to the toilet by other camp inmates?

15 A. It looked like he had; he was carried.

16 Q. You spoke of an occasion when Kajin allowed you to use the

17 telephone. On that occasion, you said that a guard with a gun, or a

18 weapon, I think, of some description, essentially tried to prevent that

19 taking place. Is that a fair summary of your evidence in relation to the

20 phone call you were allowed to make?

21 A. I don't know what you mean by "summary," but of course I could

22 have just passed by the guard going in that direction.

23 Q. Didn't you say that the guard shouted and said something, "Where

24 are you going?" And that this guard had a machine-gun? Isn't that what

25 you said?

Page 5297












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5298

1 A. I just said it a moment ago, and I said it earlier. He stopped me

2 because no one was allowed to go that way.

3 Q. Yes. And Kajin said that he needed you, and therefore you were

4 able to pass and subsequently make the telephone call; that's correct,

5 isn't it?

6 A. Yes, you've heard what I said.

7 Q. Yes. So, Witness DP, would you agree with this proposition?

8 Kajin at that time was able to assert his control over that guard so that

9 you were allowed to make the phone call? Would you agree with that?

10 A. I wouldn't agree with that proposition.

11 Q. Just --

12 A. Any guard could have said, "I need this man."

13 Q. But you agree there were certain guards who had control over

14 others, don't you, Witness DP?

15 A. I don't know whether there was anyone who had control over the

16 others. I think it was Zivko who had control over them.

17 Q. Let's turn to Zivko. You formed the impression that he was in

18 control at the camp. I think that's what your evidence was. Is that

19 fair?

20 A. That's what I said, and that's what Zivko himself told me.

21 Q. In your evidence earlier, isn't it the case that you said, after

22 you saw Zivko Knezevic, after he had been in the camp, you said to him,

23 "Why didn't you help me? You were the camp commander," and he denied

24 that he was the camp commander? That's what you said in your evidence

25 earlier today; isn't that right?

Page 5299

1 A. Yes, but please add to that that he told me he was commander of

2 Station II and the commander of the security detail at the camp.

3 Q. When you said to him, "You were the camp commander, why didn't you

4 help me," what exactly was his response?

5 A. I didn't tell him he was a camp commander. I told him he was a

6 commander at the camp, and "please have some appreciation for me" because

7 I had suffered a lot already. I had the impression that he was the

8 commander of the camp. And he told me no, he wasn't. He was commander of

9 Station II at Urije, and also commander of the guards, that the guards

10 belong under his control.

11 Q. That is under his control via his position at the police station?

12 Is that what you understood him to be saying?

13 A. I understood him to mean that those were reserve policemen who

14 were under his command.

15 Q. Did you understand him to be saying that someone else was the

16 actual commander of camp Keraterm?

17 A. I wasn't interested in that at all. I didn't ask about who the

18 camp commander was.

19 Q. Well, do you allow for the possibility that Zivko Knezevic was in

20 charge of the police station but that another reserve policeman or a

21 reserve policeman was, in fact, the commander of Keraterm camp, under his,

22 that is Zivko Knezevic's, ultimate control?

23 A. I don't know who the camp commander was, and I didn't discuss it

24 with him. As for the guard being under Knezevic's control, that much is

25 true because he told me so, although I don't know whether he was telling

Page 5300

1 the truth. Those reserve policemen who were placed there as security

2 belonged to police Station II whose commander he was. That's what he

3 said.

4 Q. How many times did you see Zivko Knezevic in the camp?

5 A. Every time that an incident happened or someone died.

6 Q. Every time that someone died and every time that an incident

7 happened. What do you mean by "an incident"?

8 A. An incident may mean if somebody was beaten up a little, and case

9 of death means that somebody succumbed.

10 Q. Just doing the best that you can, how many times did you see him

11 in the camp?

12 A. I really can't answer that because that would be pure invention

13 after so much time. I just told you, every time something happened. It

14 wouldn't be realistic for me to put a number on it.

15 Q. It wasn't on a daily basis, was it?

16 A. No, not on a daily basis. I never said it happened on a daily

17 basis.

18 Q. And he came -- when he came to the camp, he came from outside in a

19 Mercedes vehicle; is that correct?

20 A. I didn't see that because he probably arrived from the other side,

21 not to the gate. And maybe he also used the gate, I don't know.

22 Q. And he wore an ordinary suit; he didn't wear a uniform. That's

23 correct, isn't it?

24 A. Sometimes normal clothes, sometimes a uniform. Depends.

25 MS. BALY: Your Honour, I'm about to move on to another area.

Page 5301

1 Would it be an appropriate time for a break?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes, it is.

3 Witness DP, we will adjourn for half an hour. During the

4 adjournment, you're not to discuss your evidence with anybody.

5 Ms. Baly, you would want the witness to read that document during

6 the adjournment.

7 MS. BALY: Thank you. Yes, please.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should also like

9 the Defence to be enabled to have an insight into the document which was

10 presented to the witness, that is, the original of that document, because

11 you can see with the naked eye that those four pages bear signatures which

12 are not identical at all, and therefore we should very much appreciate an

13 insight into the original of that document.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have the original, Ms. Baly?

15 MS. BALY: I'll see if I can have it obtained. I'm not sure

16 whether we have the original.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, make the best of it.

18 MS. BALY: Thank you, I will.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're adjourned.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, yes.

23 MS. BALY: Your Honours, unfortunately we do not have the original

24 of the document. We received the document, a copy of the original, from

25 the Bosnian authorities. I have the best copy with me, if my friend would

Page 5302

1 like to peruse the best copy. It's not different to the one that's

2 before --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue. Yes.


5 Q. Now, Witness DP, have you had an opportunity over the break to

6 read the document, that is, the document before you now?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What do you have to say about that document now?

9 A. I have to say under full material and criminal responsibility that

10 this is a counterfeit document and that this is a very sordid document,

11 and there are some expressions in it that are not mine, that I'd never

12 use.

13 Q. Did you --

14 A. I apologise, I haven't said it all. To confirm that, in 1995, I

15 wouldn't have gone to Banja Luka, I wouldn't have dared, because I left

16 Prijedor in 1994.

17 Q. Can you pause there for a moment. Now, the situation is that in

18 199 -- let me start again. Prijedor was, indeed, a part Banja Luka,

19 correct?

20 A. No, it wasn't. Prijedor had a station of its own, and it was the

21 centre of the Una Sana canton insofar as the home affairs, the Minister of

22 the Interior was concerned.

23 Q. Would you agree with this: When the persons of Muslim ethnicity

24 were expelled from Banja Luka, they maintained that they were the

25 legitimate authorities for Banja Luka and, therefore, upon the documents

Page 5303












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5304

1 they used the term "Banja Luka"?

2 A. That is something that I wouldn't know but I -- from Prijedor, I

3 went directly to Sweden.

4 Q. Did you speak to this person Zijad Ibric in Travnik?

5 A. I've told you that a man approached me, but it was an inhumane

6 attitude, in the street, and that I refused it. It is possible that this

7 Ibric wrote this down, but this is then a criminal offence. I did not

8 sign a single document of this kind. I did not read or make any such

9 statement to anyone.

10 Q. Was this man who approached you in the street Zijad Ibric?

11 A. I don't know what his last name was, but I know a man who brought

12 him, Huse Suljanovic.

13 Q. What was the man's first name, do you know that? Was it Ibro?

14 A. My nickname is Ibro. I don't know what his name is.

15 Q. And did this take place in Travnik?

16 A. What I've told you about their attempt to make me make a

17 statement, yes, that was in Travnik. And Suljanovic, who was with me,

18 they also tried to talk him into it, and he also refused it vigorously.

19 He's a relative of this Huso.

20 Q. So the signature on the document is forged; is that right?

21 A. It is right. When I read it, I signed here to show you what my

22 signature looks like. And this pocket money that they gave me, this, for

23 the victims, you can see my signature there, and you can compare it and

24 see that it has absolutely nothing in common with these signatures here.

25 Q. All right. Earlier, you said that the signature on the document

Page 5305

1 was similar to yours. That's what you said, isn't it?

2 A. I did say that, and it's -- it looks a little bit like mine but

3 it's not mine.

4 Q. Do you know, Witness DP --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour -- I

7 apologise for interrupting, but could we please, both the Chamber and the

8 Prosecution and the Defence, could we please have this paper on which --

9 this piece of paper on which the witness has put his signature, could it

10 be, I don't know, copied or something? I'd just like to see what he

11 signed and how he signed it.

12 A. Well, I signed it yesterday when I signed for the pocket money.

13 You can see my signature there too.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Have the paper distributed.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Your

16 Honour, could we just have a minute so that we can consult?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, have a minute, Mr. Petrovic, and please pass

18 the document up to the Chamber after you've looked at it.

19 [Defence counsel confer]

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness DP, would you tell us when you made this

22 signature on this document?

23 A. What you have now, right now, a few moments ago, when I read this

24 document. And you can also see my signature, you have it here, because a

25 person brought me some pocket money and I signed the receipt, so -- and

Page 5306

1 you can also compare those two and see that I am not inventing anything

2 now.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is that document, the receipt for the

4 money?

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know, but I

6 suppose you can find it in the Victim and Witness Protection Unit, but I

7 just don't know.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to ask the Registry to attempt to get

10 that document with the witness's signature for the expenses that he

11 received.

12 Continue, Ms. Baly.

13 MS. BALY: Your Honour, may I see the document?


15 MS. BALY:

16 Q. Witness DP, why did you sign three times? Why did you sign your

17 signature three times on the document that you signed during the break?

18 A. To assure you, to really prove my point, madam.

19 Q. I just have one final question, and it's this: Do you know how or

20 do you have any idea how the person who forged this document knew that you

21 had brought -- bought a cauldron from Jovo Radocaj to make rakija in?

22 A. There are many things here which are the same as those that I told

23 some people about. That is not the only thing. However, there are also

24 certain things where it says how I had said Chetnik, and that is an

25 expression which I never liked, Chetnik or Ustasha. These are petit

Page 5307

1 bourgeois expressions and nationalistic expressions. Likewise, that

2 document says that I had read it and signed it, and that is very

3 offensive.

4 You know well that it was the dirtiest war in Europe so far, and I

5 can openly say that somebody on that other side made use of these stories

6 told by other inmates, and seeing that I had refused to make any

7 statement, then this was concocted. This story was made up.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. BALY: I'll tender the document that's before the witness

10 together with the document that's in my mind.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: In view of the circumstances, Ms. Baly, the

12 Chamber will defer admitting the document. We have asked to see the

13 document with the witness's signature for the monies that he received for

14 his expenses. That will have been done, I think, yesterday. When we see

15 that, we'll make a decision on the question of its admission.

16 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.


18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we just clarify

19 two things, whether Your Honour is referring to the signature that the

20 witness wrote in the witness room or the signatures on the statement that

21 my learned friend has shown the witness? I'm not sure that I understood

22 well. This is the first thing.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm referring to both, I'm referring to both.

24 We'll defer admission on all related documents.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, then, Your Honour,

Page 5308

1 just one sentence more. Could the Chamber defer the admission of this

2 document, that is, the statement, regardless until we see the original of

3 the document, which must exist somewhere because the document that the

4 Prosecution was kind enough to give us is a photocopy, and this document

5 already shows that it must be at least the second copy in view of this

6 mark here. So this is already a photocopy. Could also the Chamber please

7 defer the admission of this document until we see the original? But

8 whatever the case, Damir Dosen's Defence challenges the authenticity of

9 this document.

10 And I should also like to put -- to ask questions of the person

11 who made this document, with the Chamber's permission, or anyone who could

12 help us to really clarify whether this is or is not the signature of the

13 witness testifying today.

14 JUDGE MAY: The question is really, how much are we assisted by

15 the document in any event. The Prosecution hasn't sought to cross-examine

16 on it, apart from one or two details. As far as this trial is concerned,

17 I suppose the only significance would be that there is no mention of Damir

18 Dosen in it. That would, I suppose, be the only significance. Apart from

19 that, I'm not sure it takes us very much further whether it's a truthful

20 document or not.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just briefly. Yes,

22 indeed, you are quite right. But why this seems to be important has to do

23 with the principle of work governing the work of some services of agencies

24 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, such as, for instance, AID. They come by certain

25 documents. They submit them to the Tribunal.

Page 5309












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5310

1 You will remember that on at least 20 occasions we've had

2 statements taken by a gentleman called Zijad Ibric and we, I think, all

3 remember it. We find this man, this name, in practically all documents

4 supplied to the Tribunal by the AID. These documents are submitted to The

5 Hague, and the Prosecution then build their cases on the basis of such

6 documents. So I believe that this is the matter which needs to be

7 discussed. It undermines the ability of the witnesses who appear before

8 this Tribunal and who made those statements.

9 May I also take the liberty of reminding the Chamber of a

10 Prosecution witness who said himself that parts of statements had been

11 copied and that he signed them. We all remember this witness. He

12 testified before this Chamber some time ago. That statement was also

13 signed by this man that we are referring to. We all remember it, and we

14 can check it in the transcript. That is why it is important, rather than

15 in the case of this specific witness or in the case of my client. Thank

16 you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I say something?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, as I indicated before, we will defer a

19 ruling on this matter until we receive the signature in relation to the

20 expenses from the victims, and at that time we'll consider your other

21 submission, Mr. Petrovic.

22 Now, it's your turn for re-examination.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, just a moment.

24 Witness DP, it seems you wanted to say something?

25 A. Yes. His Honour said that Damir Dosen's name is not mentioned.

Page 5311

1 This is yet another proof that this is a false paper. Even though in it

2 there are quite a number of things that were counted and recounted, I

3 cannot start talking about this without mentioning Damir Dosen because

4 he's a man who was the ray of light for me in the -- in Keraterm, even

5 though I had never set eyes on him before. I think if we talk about

6 misdeeds, I think it would be quite in order to say about somebody who

7 behaved as a human being in all that.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have

9 nothing further to ask.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness DP, that concludes your testimony, and

11 you are released.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, your next witness?

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the next two

15 witnesses will be very brief, and I hope that we shall be able to finish

16 with all the witnesses for this week before the lunch break. The first

17 witness we wish to call is Karlo Petrinovic. He has not asked for any

18 protection measures.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

Page 5312

1 Examined by Mr. Petrovic:

2 Q. Mr. Petrinovic, will you please give us your full name?

3 A. I'm Karlo Petrinovic. I was born on the 19th of April, 1945.

4 Q. Where were you born?

5 A. In Prijedor.

6 Q. Before we proceed, will you please remember to make a pause

7 between my question and your answer so as to leave enough time for

8 interpreters?

9 What is your profession, will you tell me?

10 A. I am a house painter.

11 Q. And what is your ethnic origin?

12 A. I'm a Croat of Catholic religion.

13 Q. Could you please tell me where are you -- where do you work?

14 A. I work for Vatrostalna Prijedor.

15 Q. Will you please tell me if you know Damir Dosen?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. Can you tell me, since when it is that you know him?

18 A. I've known him for more than 25 years.

19 Q. Will you tell the Chamber what kind of a man is he?

20 A. As far as I know, from all that I've been with him and known about

21 him, very good, honest, straightforward, a man well-received everywhere,

22 good-mannered, nice manners and all that.

23 Q. How long have you known the Dosen family?

24 A. I've known them for 25 years, and for 11 years, maybe 12, I've

25 become quite close to them because we are friends.

Page 5313

1 Q. I think that the interpreters did not really understand when you

2 said "friendly."

3 A. Well, his brother married my daughter.

4 Q. Could you tell us what you know about that family and what kind of

5 a family is Damir Dosen's family and your daughter's husband?

6 A. It is a workers' family, a family of workers. They've always

7 lived -- they -- all they had was their salary, workers', which they

8 earned by honest toil, to feed and bring up their two children, their two

9 sons. Meanwhile, built their house, not far from my house in my

10 neighbourhood.

11 Q. Can you please tell me - if you know, of course - did these people

12 ever discriminate between people in terms of their ethnic origin or faith?

13 A. I do not know if they ever discriminated, but I suppose that, had

14 they done that, we would have never become in-laws, we would never have

15 become related.

16 Q. You told us that you work for a company called Vatrostalna?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Was it called something else before?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what was its name?

21 A. Keraterm.

22 Q. Now, very briefly, from what you know about -- from the pre-war

23 time, were there any problems with water supply at Keraterm?

24 A. Yes. There was -- there was trouble with water supply in Keraterm

25 before the war, just as there are problems, same kind of problems now,

Page 5314












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5315

1 because they still don't have water. Now, whether it was a design error,

2 whether it was a manufacturing error, I wouldn't know, but I know that

3 before the war, people from the public utilities company went there to put

4 things right. However, they obviously failed to do it. There is still

5 the same problem with water. That is, there is no water there.

6 Q. So there is a problem. That is, there is water but problems that

7 crop up every now and then?

8 A. No. The problem is permanent. Perhaps there is regular water

9 supply for about two hours at night, but by day, very, very seldom.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

11 further questions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any cross-examination?

13 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any cross-examination?

15 MR. LAWRENCE: No questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any cross-examination, Mr. Ryneveld? Yes.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Just a couple.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

19 Q. Sir, just to clarify a few things, did I hear you correctly that

20 your birth date is the 19th of April 1945, or 1949, as it says in the

21 summary?

22 A. 1945.

23 Q. 1945, oh. Is your middle name Vinka?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Okay. Now, sir, just before the conflict started, did you respond

Page 5316

1 to the mobilisation call-up?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You did not?

4 A. I responded, that is I reported, but I wasn't mobilised.

5 Q. You did respond?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What duties were you assigned?

8 A. I was given work obligation at the enterprise.

9 Q. The enterprise meaning what, the company, Keraterm ceramic

10 company, or what enterprise?

11 A. At Keraterm.

12 Q. And exactly what duties did you have at Keraterm?

13 A. After the people from Keraterm left, I came to Keraterm. I was

14 invited by the lady manager who said that production has to be restarted

15 at least a little so that people can afford a living and so that something

16 can be sent to people on the front line, that we could earn a living.

17 Q. All right. So if I understand your evidence, sir, you were

18 involved in the ceramics manufacturing part of Keraterm, not in the

19 warehouse part where the detainees were kept?

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, yes.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The witness, I think, clearly

23 stated that he came to that position as required by work obligation after

24 what we are discussing here was already over, so I really don't see what

25 the relevance of this how and how this question can be asked when he

Page 5317

1 clearly said that he came there after all the events we are discussing

2 here before this Trial Chamber were over.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the relevance?

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, I asked the question about what his

5 duties were once he reported, and he told me he was -- his duties were to

6 go to Keraterm. Now, he's given me the answer what his duties at Keraterm

7 were. I'm about to ask what he did.

8 Q. What did you do -- first of all, when were you called up for

9 mobilisation?

10 A. You mean the call-up? I didn't receive the actual call-up for

11 mobilisation. I went when I stopped working. And before the war I was a

12 reception officer at the weigh bridge, and since I wasn't needed any

13 longer, they told me to go home.

14 Q. Let me phrase the question this way: What, if anything, did you

15 do for the months of May, June, July, and August of 1992? Did you have

16 some duties assigned to you during those months?

17 A. I didn't understand the question. What duties? Do you mean

18 duties given me by my enterprise or the competent authorities of the

19 ministry, or what?

20 Q. Well, since you've given me two options, either of them or both of

21 them. When you reported as a response to the mobilisation, were you given

22 duties? And I think your answer was to work for the enterprise. Correct?

23 A. Yes. I worked at the enterprise later, when the premises were

24 vacated. During that time, I was at home.

25 Q. Maybe I should establish the first issue. When were you called up

Page 5318

1 for mobilisation? When were you called upon to report?

2 A. I wasn't summoned to be mobilised. I didn't receive a call-up of

3 any kind.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, could you show the witness a document

5 and copies to my friends and, of course, to the members of the Court.

6 And just so that Your Honours know what document this is, on the

7 2nd of July, Judge May asked for a copy of the whole document that we

8 presented at that time. We presented a small part of a document through

9 previous witnesses, and at that time the Court asked for a copy of this

10 whole document. I'm now producing a copy of this whole document of which

11 portions before were entered as, I believe, Exhibit 54, Madam Registrar.

12 Q. Now, sir --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, could it be put on the ELMO, please,

14 for the interpreters.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Do we have another copy, Madam Clerk?

16 Q. I'm only going to show you two entries on two pages, sir, so it's

17 not going to be a long process.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: First of all, the front page, Mr. Usher, just the

19 very front page with P0052741 as the ERN number. You're getting -- okay.

20 I don't know if I can see this.

21 Q. All right, do you see the very top line of that document, sir?

22 It's in your language. It looks like the word "spisak." What does that

23 mean?

24 A. List of soldiers who reported at the general call-up.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 5319

1 MR. RYNEVELD: And if we could turn to page 12, Mr. Usher, and I

2 would draw the witness's attention to entry 465.

3 Q. You see the number 465 on page 12?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is that your name, your birth date or birth year, and your

6 former address?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you were one of the soldiers who responded, then, to the

9 call-up, sir, according to this document.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours. Although I consider

11 this to be completely irrelevant and a waste of time of this Trial

12 Chamber -- I apologise, I apologise, Your Honour, then.

13 Well, my colleague is asking at what time. Did he suggest a

14 time? Is there any time indicated here in this document? Is there an

15 indication of time so that we could establish it? And the witness was

16 asked at what time.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear the rest of the questions from

18 Mr. Ryneveld.


20 Q. Sir, would you agree that according to this list, at least, you

21 are named as one of the people who responded, as it says at the top of the

22 document?

23 A. No, I didn't sign or receive any call-up. This is probably a list

24 of people -- I don't know. I don't understand.

25 Q. That's fine, sir.

Page 5320

1 MR. RYNEVELD: I have no further questions. I would, however,

2 tender this document.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, tendered.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. My microphone wasn't on, so for the

6 record I'll say: I tender this document, it was -- a portion of which was

7 previously Exhibit 54. I leave it to the Court's discretion whether,

8 since this is partially in response of the Court's request to have the

9 document, full document filed, I do so.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: 54A, yes.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, any re-examination?

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I

14 have just a few questions.

15 I would like the witness to have a look at this document and tell

16 me first of all whether he sees a date anywhere on the document or a

17 signature on the last page.

18 Re-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] So please, will you look at the first page and

20 the last page.

21 A. No. I don't see a date, and I don't see a signature.

22 Q. Will you please look at the names that you see here. Will you

23 please read those names? Do you see here names of people of all ethnic

24 backgrounds in Prijedor?

25 A. Yes, there are.

Page 5321












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5322

1 Q. Please look at, for instance, on the first page, and try to tell

2 us, if you can tell by name, and you can tell where we come from, what are

3 the -- what is the ethnic background of those people? For instance,

4 number 1?

5 A. Number 1 is a Croat. Number 2 is also, judging by the last name,

6 he should be a Croat.

7 Q. Number 3?

8 A. Number 3 is a Muslim.

9 Q. Number 4?

10 A. Number 4 is also a Muslim.

11 Q. Number 5?

12 A. Judging by the last name, number 5 is a Croat.

13 Q. Number 6?

14 A. A Muslim.

15 Q. Number 7?

16 A. A Muslim.

17 Q. Number 8?

18 A. A Muslim.

19 Q. Will you please tell me, if you know, what does a general call-up

20 mean? Is it a call-up announced through the media to everyone to report

21 for mobilisation, or is it a call-up -- the sort of call-up sent to each

22 conscript individually?

23 A. Call-ups were distributed individually.

24 Q. What does a general call-up mean?

25 A. Well, in my understanding, it means that it is a general call-up

Page 5323

1 through the media. The very term means general call-up for mobilisation.

2 Q. Does it mean that all men who are fit for the army have to report

3 for mobilisation?

4 A. I didn't understand the question.

5 Q. Does it mean that failure to respond to a general call-up for

6 mobilisation means that all men who are fit for the army have to respond

7 to be mobilised?

8 A. I don't know whether everyone were supposed to report. I suppose

9 those who thought they should reported.

10 Q. If you look at this list, do you see signatures of people who

11 possibly accepted summons for mobilisations, call-ups?

12 A. There are no signatures here.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

14 further questions.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrinovic, that concludes your testimony,

16 and you are released.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 [The witness withdrew]


20 MS. BALY: Your Honour, in relation to the next proposed witness,

21 we have a short summary that's been provided. Your Honours, the

22 Prosecution has no quarrel with the testimony that this witness is going

23 to give, and we would invite, through Your Honours, my friend, my learned

24 friend, to simply tender the summary. We have no desire to cross-examine

25 this witness on the information contained in the summary.

Page 5324

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence does wish to examine

4 the witness which has been proposed, and I would like to ask you to allow

5 the witness to be shown in. It will take five minutes.


7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Maybe I

8 forgot to --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. The

11 witness does not require any protective measures.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

19 Examined by Mr. Petrovic:

20 Q. Will you please tell me your full name?

21 A. Mika Dosen.

22 Q. Will you please tell me the date of your birth and place of birth?

23 A. 15th of October, 1971, in Prijedor.

24 Q. Your husband is the accused Damir Dosen, isn't he?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5325

1 Q. Can you tell me since when do you know Damir Dosen?

2 A. We met in 1988, and since then we have been together.

3 Q. Since when have you lived together with Damir Dosen?

4 A. Since 1991.

5 Q. Can you tell us, do you have any children from that marriage?

6 A. I have two sons.

7 Q. Could you tell us their names and when they were born?

8 A. Mitar was born in 1993, and David in year 2000.

9 Q. Tell us, please, in what year, how, and where, did you formally

10 enter into matrimony with Damir Dosen?

11 A. On the 2nd February, year 2001, here in the Hague.

12 Q. Your second son was born after the arrest of Damir Dosen?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In what month of pregnancy were you when he was arrested?

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not catch the answer

16 because it overlaps with the questions of the counsel.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear that, Mr. Petrovic?

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I heard, but I'm

19 afraid that the interpreters didn't hear it, although I did.

20 A. Two-and-a-half-months pregnant, I was, at the time of the arrest.

21 Q. Will you please make a pause before answering, for the sake of the

22 interpreters?

23 Could you please tell me, what happened on the 31st of March

24 1992?

25 A. I was eight months pregnant, and I gave birth prematurely.

Page 5326

1 Q. Was your child alive?

2 A. No. It died four days later.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

4 tender these documents with the help of the usher. I would like the

5 witness to see a copy of these documents, but it's not necessary for her

6 to comment upon them.

7 With the help of the usher, I would like to distribute this

8 document, giving a copy to my colleagues from the Prosecution and, of

9 course, to the Trial Chamber [In English] Mr. Usher, may I ask you to

10 deliver these documents as well?

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Dosen, will you please tell me, are these

12 documents related to this tragic event for your family in 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to tender these

15 documents if there are no objections.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let them be given a number.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] We will not be needing these

18 documents any more.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Document dated the -- sorry, dated the 4th of April

20 will be Defence Exhibit D15/2, the document dated the 9th of April will be

21 Defence Exhibit D16/2, and the death certificate will be Defence Exhibit

22 D17/2.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, will you please tell us how your husband reacted to the

25 loss of your child?

Page 5327












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5328

1 A. I don't think words exist to express our pain and loss. We were

2 very hard hit. He was very hard hit, and he was very depressed at the

3 time.

4 Q. During those months, that spring and that summer, did he try to be

5 there for you, to spend as much time with you as he could?

6 A. Yes. When we lost that child, I felt a deep attachment to Damir.

7 Q. To the best of your knowledge, did he try to spend every moment he

8 had free at the beginning of the war with you?

9 A. Yes, he did. He always came to visit me, to see if I needed

10 anything, to see how I felt.

11 Q. When did Damir Dosen's father die?

12 A. On the 16th of February, year 2000.

13 Q. How much time after Damir Dosen's arrest?

14 A. Four months.

15 Q. Was he ever ill, and what did he die of?

16 A. He was never ill. He was a healthy man, and he -- his heart

17 failed. It was probably from all the sorrow and pain.

18 Q. I apologise because I was forced to invite you to say this before

19 the Trial Chamber. I thank you very much.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there any cross-examination?

21 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

22 MR. LAWRENCE: No, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any cross-examination?

24 MS. BALY: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Mrs. Dosen, that concludes your

Page 5329

1 testimony, and you are released.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to have the registrar pass to the

4 parties the document bearing the witness's signature in respect of the

5 receipt of certain monies. Show it to the Prosecution first and then the

6 Defence.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber has had an opportunity to see the

9 signature of the witness in respect of his receipt of certain monies from

10 the Victims and Witnesses Unit. We have seen, of course, the signature on

11 the document which the Prosecution seeks to tender. We take account of

12 the strenuous objections, the strenuous denial by the witness that the

13 document sought to be tendered by the Prosecution bears his signature, and

14 we take account of counsel's objections to the admission of this document.

15 In the circumstances, the document will not be admitted.

16 Mr. Petrovic, do you have other witnesses, or is that the

17 conclusion of your case? Well, yes, you do have other witnesses. That

18 will be next week, but not for today.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, next week. The

20 witnesses envisaged for this week were here and testified, so perhaps

21 we're finished before we expected to finish, but we have no more witnesses

22 this week. New witnesses should be arriving tomorrow so that they will be

23 here on Tuesday.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. In that event, then, as you have been

25 advised, the Chamber will not be sitting tomorrow, Friday, and Monday.

Page 5330

1 We'll resume on Tuesday the 23rd at 9.30. We are adjourned.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.33 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of

4 July, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.