Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5414

1 Thursday, 26 July 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

11 Mr. Rodic.

12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honours,

13 before I start with the examination-in-chief, I would like to request that

14 the new English translation of the expert report and finding of

15 Mr. Lakcevic produced by the CLSS - that's the Translation Service of the

16 Tribunal - be distributed to the parties. We have previously distributed

17 the earlier version, but this is the authoritative version of the document

18 into English now.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic. We have received it.

20 Examined by Mr. Rodic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, will you please state your full name and

22 date of birth and place of residence.

23 A. I'm Dusan Lakcevic, I was born in 1938, and I live and work in

24 Belgrade, Serbia, Yugoslavia.

25 Q. Can you tell me what your profession is and what your education

Page 5415

1 has been?

2 A. I graduated from law school in 1963, in 1968 I had a state exam,

3 in 1979 I became master of arts on the criminal law, and in 1984 I

4 defended my thesis, my Ph.D. thesis.

5 Q. Can you please slow down. The interpreters have trouble catching

6 up with you.

7 A. And I worked for 36 years in the police, first as an operations

8 officer, as a senior investigator, and then I moved on to the education of

9 the police personnel. I wrote 8 books and about 200 other items dealing

10 with the criminal law, international administrative law, and the issues

11 concerning state security. I can also add ...

12 Q. What was your Ph.D.?

13 A. Internal affairs bodies and their role in the criminal procedure

14 of Yugoslavia.

15 Q. I am just going to advise you one more time to take breaks before

16 answering my questions. We are running the risk of overlapping

17 otherwise.

18 A. Very well.

19 Q. Is it also true that you produced the expert finding and analysis

20 in this case for the accused Damir Dosen and his role in the amended

21 indictment IT-95-8-PT?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. Do you stand by all the statements that you've made in your

24 finding?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 5416

1 Q. Can you tell us briefly what your expert findings were to be?

2 A. My task was to find out what the role of the accused Damir Dosen

3 was in the tasks when he was engaged as a reserve police officer, and in

4 that regard the counts of the indictment which charged him with certain

5 omissions; and my task was also - and this was asked of me by the Defence

6 counsel - that I provide expert opinion regarding the tasks of providing

7 security in general and specifically as regards Keraterm camp; also to

8 answer whether he, given his training and certain circumstances regarding

9 his work and his practice, whether he could, as a reserve police officer,

10 could have had the role of superior officer among the guards in the camp,

11 whether he could affect or influence the circumstances in the Keraterm

12 camp regarding the accommodation, food, use of water and power, medical

13 help, and other needs for the detained persons.

14 Q. Very well. Can you just tell us in brief what you used in

15 drafting your expert report?

16 A. In order to provide an objective and expert report and opinion, I

17 used -- I first abided by the rules of expertise and more rules. I

18 carefully read the second amended indictment, IT-95-8-T. I studied all

19 relevant documents that are relevant to the task of the expertise. Then I

20 analysed the provisions of the law on internal affairs, both of the former

21 SFRY, and in the BH and the Republika Srpska. And in my report, I have

22 also quoted all the relevant legal provisions, so I don't think that I

23 need to go back and repeat all that now.

24 Q. Thank you. If I can ask you first to describe for us the

25 structure of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republika Srpska very

Page 5417

1 briefly, how did it look, if you can go down the hierarchical ladder?

2 A. Before I specifically answer that, I need to say that in the

3 former SFRY, there was an interrepublican commission which was tasked with

4 preparation of and harmonising of the rules and regulations of various

5 republics, so that I can say that all the organisation of structure of the

6 police force, after the break-up of Yugoslavia, they were all adopted by

7 the new republics, so that in the Republika Srpska, there was the central

8 body, which was Ministry of Internal Affairs, with a minister, and then it

9 had two services, the state service, security service, and the public

10 security service. And below the ministry, there are five centres of --

11 Q. Can I slow you down a little bit, please?

12 A. There are five district offices, Doboj, Banja Luka, Trebinje,

13 Sarajevo and Bijeljina. And each of these have their security chief.

14 Both the public and the national security offices, SUP, are chiefs of each

15 of these offices. Below this in the hierarchy are public security

16 stations. It has a chief, it has deputy and it has assistants. Each

17 public security station -- in addition to these stations, there is crime

18 division, and their duties include identity cards, citizenship, register

19 of births, marriages and death. Below the public security station, there

20 is a militia station, which is headed by the commander, the deputy, two or

21 more assistants. The militia station does not have crime division duties

22 but it does have uniformed policemen. And then below the militia station,

23 there is a department, just a department, which only has the militia

24 department which only has its head, chief.

25 Q. Mr. Lakcevic, the record does not reflect everything that you're

Page 5418

1 saying, and it is simply because you talk much too fast, because the

2 translation service is unable to follow you, and it is unable to have

3 everything -- it is -- they are not able to follow you. And I'm just

4 going to take you back to some of the points. I want to take you back to

5 the security centres.

6 A. Below the Ministry of the Interior of the Republika Srpska, there

7 are five security services centres. There are five of them. Their

8 centres are in Banja Luka, Trebinje, Doboj, Bijeljina and Sarajevo. The

9 security services centres have the chief of centre, and the national

10 security centre also has its own chief, and this is just in brief, as

11 concerns national security services centres. Below them are public

12 security stations, such as was the case in Prijedor, and they have a

13 chief, then they have a police station and then the crime division

14 service. This is all below. Below the public security station, there is

15 a police station, headed by a commander, deputy, two or more assistants.

16 Also there is a duty service and other services which are part of the

17 station.

18 Q. Can you tell us what is the basic difference between the

19 active-duty police officer and a reserve police officer?

20 A. Active-duty police officer is a person who is fully employed, who

21 was -- who has completed a secondary school training and who has passed a

22 specialist exam, after six months, and who is assigned to his tasks

23 through a decree by his superior for specific tasks, which can be traffic

24 or patrol, beats, and similar. The filling of the police force in the

25 active-duty service can be either from the general citizenry or -- after

Page 5419

1 they've completed a six-month course, or specialist training, which is

2 secondary police school, which lasts four years and a specialist exam that

3 follows six months after they were police officers in training.

4 Q. Can you tell me how the reserve police force is formed?

5 A. The law on internal affairs of the Republika Srpska, and other

6 subrules, provide - and this is done on the basis of practical

7 needs - that under certain circumstances, reserve policemen can also be

8 engaged in certain tasks. Through the rosters and through the lists that

9 are kept at the police, certain persons are identified for certain tasks

10 as reserve police officers. Persons whose records are -- who are assigned

11 to these tasks are usually persons who had some experience in security

12 services and were relieved of their duties either because they were

13 retired or who have left for some other reasons. They may have gone on to

14 work in another type of organisation, and so on. Such persons are

15 assigned as reserve police officers; in other words, they're registered

16 with the Ministry of the Interior organs.

17 Sometimes it happens that persons who never worked for the police

18 also can be reserve police officers. For instance, if they had been in

19 the military police or if they were engaged in some other type of security

20 tasks, they can also be assigned to duties as reserve police officers.

21 But the management of the organs of the internal affairs, that is, of the

22 police, are obliged to train such personnel to prepare them for the jobs

23 that are involved and that are very sensitive, because it is well known

24 that the police has a wide scope of authority, like everywhere else in the

25 world, and which in some cases can limit civil and human rights, but

Page 5420












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Page 5421

1 following the rules and laws, including international treaties and

2 conventions such as were signed onto by the former SFRY.

3 Q. Thank you. You explained to us that the police officers can be

4 trained, that they can undergo a course, that the reserve police officers

5 also undergo certain training. In the light of all these regulations, is

6 one of the prerequisites that they all have a certain physical and mental

7 capacity?

8 A. Not only that they need to; they have to. They have to be

9 schooled; they have to go through a training, precisely because of the

10 wide scope of authority; and they also have to be ethical and honest

11 people, because we cannot employ in the police persons who have a criminal

12 record, because of the sensitivity; and also we test their mental

13 abilities and also we run a background check on them, because we want to

14 make sure that there is no criminal record involved, and these are all

15 very strict criteria for employing people in this service.

16 Q. Among other things, when you carried out your expertise in this

17 case, one of your tasks was to determine the status of the accused Damir

18 Dosen as regards his capacity in the relevant period in the indictment,

19 and you said that you had studied all the documents available. I would

20 therefore like to ask you to tell me briefly: What was his capacity at

21 the time in the summer of 1992? Please just wait a moment. So the

22 question pertains only to his actual capacity, whether he was a soldier, a

23 reserve or active-duty police officer. What did you establish?

24 A. I established, on the basis of the relevant material evidence,

25 that is, documents, that he was a reserve police officer who was assigned

Page 5422

1 to tasks of physical security in the camp or prison, whatever you want to

2 call it.

3 Q. Thank you very much. When you reached that conclusion, did you by

4 any chance analyse the documents issued by the Ministry of Defence and the

5 organs of the police in Prijedor?

6 A. Yes, definitely. The essential information for me, the essential

7 document, the crucial piece of evidence for me, is first of all his solemn

8 oath that he gave on the 8th of May. Another relevant piece of evidence

9 is the roster of tasks when the reserve police force is mentioned for May

10 and June 1992. We have his name there, as well as the list of the

11 payroll, the salary roll for the reserve police force, where we find

12 Dosen's name too, as well as a list of personnel, and Damir Dosen is

13 listed under number 99 as a person who is authorised to enter Keraterm.

14 And the title is the reserve police officers. This all indicates that he

15 was a reserve police officer.

16 Q. Can you tell us: Before determining that in the relevant period

17 the accused Dosen was a reserve police officer, which formation was he

18 assigned to as a person subject to military obligation?

19 A. I had documents at my disposal, both from military and from police

20 sources, which indicate that the Ministry of Defence --

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to

22 distribute this document to everybody so that everybody is able to see

23 what this is all about.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpretation service please be given

25 a copy of the document, or could the document be put on the ELMO. B/C/S

Page 5423

1 version, please.

2 A. Yes. This document, this certificate, which has been signed and

3 stamped by the authorised service, indicates that Damir Dosen from

4 Prijedor, born on the 7th of April 1967, is in the military records of the

5 Prijedor military office, and that he served in the signals corps in the

6 army but is temporarily unfit for military service. He was assigned after

7 he served his national service as a person undergoing military -- subject

8 to military police -- subject to military service. He was assigned to the

9 army and not to the police.

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] We would like to offer this into

11 evidence, so could this document please be given a number?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It may be given a number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This will be Exhibit D20/2.

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to

15 distribute the following document, which was used by the expert in the

16 course of his work.

17 A. We have before us another piece of evidence. This is a

18 certificate signed and stamped by the authorised service of the Public

19 Security Centre in Prijedor, where it is stated --

20 MS. BALY: Sorry to interrupt, but can we please have a copy of

21 that document?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let the Prosecution have a copy.


24 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please continue? Please tell us very

25 briefly what is contained in this document.

Page 5424

1 A. This document clearly shows that on the basis of the files, main

2 files, kept by each organ of the interior, in this case it is Public

3 Security Centre in Prijedor, it is stated that Damir Dosen was not an

4 active-duty police officer.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] The Defence would like to tender this

6 document into evidence so could it please be given a number?


8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this document is Exhibit D21/2.


10 Q. [Interpretation] Can you just give us a very short answer as to

11 how Dosen in fact became a reserve police officer in that time? On what

12 basis? What happened in that period?

13 A. In view of the situation that prevailed throughout Yugoslavia, and

14 to be more specific, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, there was a general

15 mobilisation pursuant to the request of the Crisis Staff, and Damir Dosen,

16 as a person subject to military obligation, was assigned to tasks of

17 reserve police officer without any security education, culture, and so on

18 and so forth, but he was assigned to tasks of physical security in

19 Keraterm.

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

21 distribute another document that pertains to what the expert has been

22 talking about, namely the general mobilisation.

23 Q. Did you analyse this document?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Can you tell us very briefly what is this document about?

Page 5425












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Page 5426

1 A. This -- and I apologise for having said the Crisis Staff, but

2 unfortunately there were so many documents and one cannot remember them

3 all. This was made on the basis of the Ministry of the National Defence

4 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was a decision to

5 order general public mobilisation in the entire territory of the

6 Autonomous Region of Krajina. All conscripts were obliged to place

7 themselves at the disposal of the municipal Territorial Defence staffs,

8 which will then, based on their assessment - and I stress this - based on

9 their assessments and plans, carry out the mobilisation, formation and

10 deployment of units.

11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Well, that would be all we need in

12 this regard. I would now like to ask the usher to distribute another

13 document that pertains -- that is related to the previous document.

14 Q. Can you tell us, what is this document?

15 A. Here we have the Crisis Staff of the Prijedor municipality, which

16 issues a communique to the fact that the entire male population aged

17 between 18 and 45, not involved in the units of either the military or the

18 police, and who do not have a wartime assignment, that they should

19 immediately report to the Public Security Station in Prijedor in order to

20 be given their tasks in the reserve police force in security operations.

21 Failure to respond to this call-up entails penalties, criminal

22 responsibility, in other words.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] All right. I would now like to ask

24 the Trial Chamber to assign numbers to these two documents because the

25 Defence would like to tender them into evidence.

Page 5427

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let them be given numbers.


3 Q. [Interpretation] Can you please tell us --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us have the numbers first.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The document with regards to a

6 decision in relation to the Region of Krajina is Exhibit D22/2. The

7 second document, last document, a public announcement, is Exhibit number

8 D23/2.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. Lakcevic, every man fit for military service, or in other

11 words every conscript, if there is a general mobilisation, if such a

12 person fails to respond to the call-up, do they suffer any consequences or

13 sanctions?

14 A. As it is all over the world, and so it is in the Republika Srpska,

15 persons who fail to respond to the call-up are held criminally

16 responsible. I myself was in a situation, was able to see among the

17 documents placed at my disposal a judgement --

18 Q. Just a moment. Let me distribute some documents so that everybody

19 can see what you are talking about.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly.

21 MS. BALY: Your Honours, I note that most of the documents that

22 are being tendered by my learned friend have already been tendered by the

23 Prosecution and already have been assigned exhibit numbers. I don't know

24 if that assists. The exhibit numbers are actually on the documents which

25 were in the binders filed by the Prosecution.

Page 5428

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: If they have already been assigned numbers, they

2 should not be given new numbers. That's a recipe for chaos.

3 THE REGISTRAR: I'll verify that, Your Honour, and if corrections

4 need to be made, I will reassign the numbers.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

6 Mr. Rodic, we'll continue giving them numbers, and at the end of

7 the day the registrar will make the corrections as necessary.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Lakcevic, you have before you two documents. Could you please

10 tell us very briefly what they are about, very briefly.

11 A. In the first case, we have a case of a young man born in 1976 who

12 failed to respond to the call-up for recruitments. That means that he

13 failed to respond to the call to serve his national service, and he was

14 sentenced to two years in prison by the military court in Banja Luka.

15 The second example is something that is very characteristic. It

16 shows that not only men, but women also, were subject to military

17 obligation. So we have Vladislava Vekic, who was a doctor, a

18 neuropsychiatrist, who was found guilty of the criminal offence of failing

19 to respond to a call-up and for avoidance of military service, Article

20 214, related to Article 226 of the Criminal Code of Republika Srpska, and

21 she was sentenced accordingly.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would like to -- she was sentenced

23 to eight years in prison, and I would like to tender these two documents

24 into evidence.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, subject to the remarks I made earlier with

Page 5429

1 regard to numbering.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The Exhibit is 224/2 and 225/2

3 [sic]. For the record, may I just -- the Exhibit number is D24/2 and

4 D25/2. Thank you.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. You have mentioned that you also reviewed the solemn oath signed

7 by Damir Dosen. I'm giving you that document now. Does this mean that he

8 responded to the call for mobilisation and that this is confirmed by this

9 document and that he was a member of the reserve police force?

10 A. His solemn oath dated 8 May means that he responded to the

11 call-up.

12 Q. We need not read the entire documents. Everybody knows what this

13 is about. We can go much faster.

14 A. By signing this oath, he fulfilled his obligation as per call-up

15 of the competent organs, and he reported into the police service.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document also

17 be entered and given a number.


19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. It's Exhibit D26/2.

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are several

21 additional documents that the Defence would like to tender in respect of

22 the reserve police.

23 Q. Mr. Lakcevic, so far you have explained the situation with

24 mobilisation, the response of the conscripts to the call-up, including

25 Mr. Dosen, and you mentioned a situation where it happened during wartime

Page 5430












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Page 5431

1 where the rules that apply are stricter and the criminal liability is also

2 higher. Did you see this document regarding the meetings at the public

3 security centre?

4 A. I did.

5 Q. Can you just give us the gist of this document?

6 A. In my opinion, for me, it was most important that during this time

7 of war, and given the overall situation, which was fluid and tragic,

8 certain organs of the Republika Srpska - in this particular case, police

9 organs - had to become involved within their competence in implementing

10 the discipline of their personnel, regardless of whether they were part of

11 the active duty or reserve force. And in the conclusions dated 6 May, it

12 is stated that all orders that are set out either in writing or orally had

13 to be implemented, and the lines of command and the lines of

14 implementation are very clearly defined.

15 I would also like to point out the issue of delivery of the

16 monthly report on what was done and centralisation of all information, in

17 other words, that the security centre in Banja Luka is to get from all

18 their field branches these reports. And also there is the issue of

19 financing the reserve forces addressed, and I saw that there was a report

20 from April 1992. Prijedor did not receive these monies for April from

21 Sarajevo and they had to find alternate ways of financing. And then there

22 is also the conclusion 22. There would be vacancies publicly announced

23 and courses for military police personnel would be organised. What is

24 also important, and I think that this is my opinion -- let me just say

25 this: that for this case it is very important that they have to follow

Page 5432

1 everything that is ordered to them by the Crisis Staff.

2 Q. This is from the services centre in Banja Luka meeting?

3 A. Yes, and it is being sent out to all the public security stations,

4 and it was then to -- they were to forward them further down to the

5 individual police stations in the field.

6 Q. Did you see that this meeting was attended by the chief of the

7 Prijedor Public Security Station?

8 A. I'm glad you reminded me. Yes. At the bottom of the document you

9 see who attended, and the chief of the Prijedor Public Security Station

10 Services also attended.

11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher now please distribute

12 the next document.

13 Q. For the record, will you please repeat whether, in the -- whether

14 the chief of the Public Security Centre in -- of Prijedor did attend the

15 meeting of the expanded college of public security centres?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you look at the next document, please? What is it?

18 A. These are the conclusions as sent by the chief of the public

19 security centre, and again this is an expanded meeting. This refers to

20 the expanded meeting of the 5th of June, and he lists all the conclusions.

21 Q. We will not go through all that, but who are they referred to?

22 A. They go to all the local police commanders and they are to

23 distribute it to all personnel, and this is an express order from the

24 chief of the public security station.

25 Q. Is that contained in the last sentence on page 2?

Page 5433

1 A. Yes, that is following paragraph 30, and it says that the station

2 commanders are required to brief the employees on the above conclusions.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these are two separate

4 documents, and I'd like them both entered in evidence, please.


6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the conclusions of the meeting dated

7 6th of May 1992 is Exhibit D27/2.

8 The conclusions of the meeting dated 11th May 1992 is Exhibit

9 D28/2.


11 Q. [Interpretation] After these conclusions, did the public security

12 station chief report to the Public Security Services Centres in Banja

13 Luka?

14 A. Yes. There is such a document.

15 Q. It is just being distributed even as we speak and you will be able

16 to review it when it comes to you.

17 A. May I proceed?

18 Q. Can you just tell us what is this document, who is sending it to

19 whom, and if you can just focus on the first paragraph, and if you can

20 just wait for the translation, please? Go ahead now, please.

21 A. The document is sent by the Prijedor Public Security Service to

22 the Banja Luka Security Services Centres, and in my opinion, two things

23 are significant here. One, that ten police stations have been mobilised

24 with 1587 members, and it also reports that there were no failures to

25 respond or avoiding of the work duties.

Page 5434

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document also

2 be entered into evidence and --


4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] -- given a number?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document D29/2.


7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lakcevic, can you tell us one of the duties

8 and tasks that police officers encounter in their work and that is also

9 provided for by law, is providing security to facilities and persons? Are

10 they different kinds of security tasks?

11 A. According to the laws and regulations on the operations of the

12 internal organs, there are regular, extraordinary and special, or regular,

13 emergency and special security.

14 Q. Very well. You -- I think you detailed that. I just wanted to

15 remind you of it. And again, for the record, if you can pace yourself a

16 little bit more slowly? Can you -- and if you can just pause before

17 giving the answer? If you can quote the exact authority?

18 A. It is the Law on Internal Affairs and Regulation of the Execution

19 of Public Safety Services. There are three types, three kinds, of

20 security, regular, emergency or extraordinary, and special.

21 Q. Are you referring to Republika Srpska legislation?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Please wait. Do the regulations of the former Yugoslav republics

24 at the SFRY level have the same kinds of division? Please wait for my

25 answer and then for the interpretation, because we keep repeating things

Page 5435












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Page 5436

1 for the record, because of this. Please go ahead.

2 A. All the republics in the former Yugoslavia had the same manner of

3 dealing with these issues, regulating these security-related issues. I,

4 however, have to make a correction of what I have said, and to say that in

5 relation to this case, we are actually talking about the Law on Internal

6 Affairs of the Republika Srpska and the Regulation on the Execution of

7 Public Security Services was in fact issued in 1977 in Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina, but it was in force, it was applied, in the Republic of

9 Serbia in this period that is relevant for the indictment.

10 Q. You said that it applied in the Republic of Serbia. Do you in

11 fact mean the Republic of Serbia which is part of the FRY?

12 A. No, no, I apologise. I meant the Republika Srpska. Yes, I mean

13 the Republika Srpska.

14 Q. As you analysed the documents, were you able to learn from the

15 documents placed at your disposal anything about how Keraterm was

16 established, what its function was, what its objective was, what it was

17 used for?

18 A. Yes, I was able to.

19 Q. Did you see the reports?

20 A. Yes, I saw the reports and other documents provided to me by the

21 Defence of Damir Dosen.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to

23 distribute some documents. I would like to inform the Trial Chamber that

24 the Defence received this document at a rather late time so we did not

25 have the -- we did not get the translation done. We have managed to

Page 5437

1 translate only the three crucial pages, and then later on, we will have

2 the document translated in full, because we received it without any

3 translation.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. In the circumstances, proceed.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Lakcevic, on page 1 of the document, could you please tell us

7 what is this document?

8 A. This is a document drafted by the Public Security Station in

9 Prijedor regarding the work in the first six months of the year 1992.

10 Q. Mr. Lakcevic, on page 3 of this document, at the bottom of the

11 page, we have underlined the heading, "Tasks of the Information Transfer

12 Operator." Can you please tell us what is this about?

13 A. The public security station reports on the activities carried out

14 by the station as regards the round-the-clock duty on the telephone and

15 telegraph and radio communications equipment, informing that -- stating

16 that five employees had performed 4.693 work hours, and it is also

17 specified the number of unencrypted and encrypted telegrams.

18 Q. On page 5 we have a heading "Crime Prevention and Discovery."

19 This continues on to pages 6 and 7. Can you briefly tell us what kind of

20 an outline it is?

21 A. Here we have an outline of preventive and coercive measures taken

22 by the Prijedor Public Security Station and the type of criminal offences

23 committed by identified or unidentified perpetrators, how successful the

24 officers were in solving crimes, and we also have a report indicating that

25 in the Keraterm centre in this period --

Page 5438

1 Q. I'm sorry. I apologise. On page 6 and 7, we have specific cases

2 with criminal reports and measures taken.

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. On page 7, last paragraph, can you tell us what is going on here?

5 A. The report stresses the issue of the Keraterm reception centre,

6 and it is stated that 1.200 persons have been detained there, taken there,

7 or are still there, and that as regards persons who are of interest

8 because of reasons of security, that relevant documents have been drafted

9 and that they have been transferred to Omarska, where they will be further

10 processed.

11 Q. Let us go on to page 8. What is the second paragraph about?

12 A. We have a report here indicating that the Omarska and Keraterm

13 reception centres, in contravention of the usual practice, are constantly

14 secured by the police officers. They are providing physical security to

15 these facilities. In addition to this, they also carry out other tasks

16 related to the arrests of persons who are of interest for reasons of

17 security.

18 Q. Page 11 of this document, can you tell us who signed this

19 document? That's the last page.

20 A. This document was signed by the chief of the public security

21 station, Simo Drljaca, but here we have a signature for him, which means

22 that -- the signature is, of course, illegible, which means that somebody

23 else signed for Simo Drljaca, the Public Security Chief.

24 Q. Are such reports the usual practice in the work of public security

25 stations?

Page 5439

1 A. This is their obligation under the law. They have to do it every

2 month, every three months, every six months, and yearly.

3 Q. I would now like to go back briefly to the paragraph we quoted

4 from page 8, where it is stated that in contravention of the usual

5 practice, that police officers provided physical security all the time in

6 Omarska and Keraterm reception centres. Why is it said "outside of the

7 usual practice" or "in contravention of the usual practice"? Does the

8 police usually deal with this type of security?

9 A. This type of security operations, in particular when we're talking

10 about Prijedor, we have to say that this is something that takes place in

11 wartime. In peacetime, there are regular emergency and special security

12 operations, but in different situations.

13 Q. Since in your expert opinion and in your testimony in the course

14 of the examination-in-chief you specified that the security in Keraterm

15 would be an emergency security operation, and you also said that in

16 peacetime operations the police does not deal with these type of tasks,

17 such as providing security in this reception centre, can you please tell

18 us: What does the legislation have to say about emergency security

19 operations that the police have to provide? So what are the types of

20 emergency security operations in the regular activities of the police?

21 A. This is defined in Article 142 of the regulations on the execution

22 of the Public Security Services of Bosnia and Herzegovina, dated 1977,

23 where it is specified clearly that these are the cases in the course of

24 public rallies, sports events, fairs, and in other similar cases, and I

25 classified Keraterm under the other similar cases.

Page 5440












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5441

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would now like this report, this

2 semi-annual report of the Public Security Station in Prijedor, to be

3 assigned a number.


5 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit D30/2.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, we are just about at the time for the

7 break.

8 Dr. Lakcevic, we are going to adjourn for half an hour. During

9 the adjournment you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody, and

10 that includes the members of the Defence.

11 We are adjourned.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.37 a.m.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Lakcevic, before the break, we talked about the report of the

17 public -- Prijedor Public Security Station, its six-month activity report,

18 and you said that you observed that Keraterm was mentioned there, and I

19 would like the usher to please distribute the next batch of documents.

20 Mr. Lakcevic, do you have before you a report on the reception

21 centres in the Prijedor municipality, issued by the Prijedor Public

22 Security Station? And is it marked as officially secret and strictly

23 confidential?

24 A. Yes. Yes, I can see it.

25 Q. Thank you. This is a comprehensive report, and it refers to all

Page 5442

1 the reception centres in Prijedor area. Without wasting time, will you

2 please turn immediately to page 4, of the B/C/S version, at least?

3 Paragraph 2 from the top, armed resistance in Prijedor is mentioned and

4 the fighting that went on, and then it details that the local authorities,

5 the police, were not prepared for this, believing in the civilised and

6 peaceful behaviour, and then that it set up a centre for the reception of

7 citizens; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Then what follows, please?

10 A. This document further states that the Crisis Staff of Prijedor

11 municipality decided to use the premises of Keraterm company in Prijedor

12 for accommodation of the imprisoned and detained persons and to place them

13 under the supervision of the public security service forces and the

14 military structures.

15 Q. Did the public security station inform anyone about this decision?

16 A. Yes. The public security station was aware that it did not have

17 the necessary personnel, and because of that, it informed the Security

18 Service Centre in Banja Luka and the command of Banja Luka Corps of it,

19 and asked for assistance of professionals in order to be able to

20 operationally process the captured persons. And on the basis of this

21 request, the Banja Luka Security Services Centre and the command of the

22 Banja Luka Corps became actively involved in resolving, in solving, the

23 situation, and sent to Prijedor a substantial number of experienced

24 employees. And after that, a mixed team of members of the national - that

25 is state - public and military security services were formed. Their task

Page 5443

1 was to carry out operational processing of the captured persons and to

2 determine for each one of them individually the degree of personal

3 responsibility in the armed rebellion.

4 Operational processing was started at the Keraterm facility in

5 Prijedor, to which the army brought about 600 persons at the start of the

6 conflict.

7 Q. Very well. Can you tell me, the report further states that the

8 number of captured persons increased and that the problem developed. Did

9 the Crisis Staff of Prijedor reach any decision in regard of that?

10 A. The Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality, precisely because of

11 the limited capacity of Keraterm, of the Keraterm facility, adopted the

12 decision to transfer the detainees to the RZR building and workshop in

13 Omarska, where the mixed team of operational employees would continue the

14 processing they had started.

15 Q. Very well. We'll move on. On page 5, at paragraph 3 from the top

16 in B/C/S, is it mentioned that the Crisis Staff regulates, regulated the

17 purpose of Keraterm, just in brief?

18 A. Yes. The Crisis Staff decided that the Keraterm facility should

19 be used exclusively as a transit facility and that only the first

20 selection of the persons brought should be made there.

21 Q. And on the basis of this decision, did these prisoners of war

22 later transfer to Omarska?

23 A. Yes. Pursuant to this decision on 27 May 1992, all - and I

24 emphasise all - prisoners of war were transferred to Omarska.

25 Q. Thank you. Let us move on. Page 8, paragraph 3, it details the

Page 5444

1 tasks of public security station. Does it mention how the security of

2 these facilities was regulated and who was involved in the task?

3 A. Yes. It was decided that the investigation centre for prisoner of

4 war in Omarska, as well as Keraterm transit facility, would be placed --

5 would be secured by the police personnel, pursuant to the decision of the

6 Crisis Staff.

7 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me: You previously answered a question

8 that I asked you that this was not a regular police task, not even in

9 peacetime. Did the public security station request that its personnel be

10 relieved of these duties so that they can engage in their regular tasks?

11 A. There are documents that address this. They point out that

12 requests were made that the security be provided by the military

13 personnel, of these facilities, that is.

14 Q. Can you tell me who signed this document?

15 A. This document was signed by the chief of the public security

16 station, Simo Drljaca.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Your Honours, the Defence would like to tender this document, and

19 can it please be marked.


21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the Exhibit D31/2.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Can I please ask the usher to

23 distribute the next document.

24 Your Honours, my apologies. This document has not been collated

25 properly. There is a decision of the Security Services Centre in Banja

Page 5445












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5446

1 Luka about the decision to establish a commission which was to ascertain

2 and assess the situation in the area. We don't have a translation. It's

3 being translated now. And the report of this commission, which is the

4 document that follows the first document, that document is fully

5 translated and it is attached.

6 Q. Mr. Lakcevic, did you review the decision to establish the

7 commission that would visit the municipalities of Prijedor, Bosanski Novi,

8 and Sanski Most to carry out the inspection?

9 A. Yes, I reviewed it.

10 Q. Is it dated 14 August?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Can you tell us what the task of this commission was, based on

13 this decision?

14 A. The chief of the Security Centre in Banja Luka adopted a decision

15 to establish a commission that was going to visit the municipalities.

16 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Lakcevic. You can just be very brief. Was the

17 task of this commission set out in the top paragraph -- in the bottom

18 paragraph?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was the commission supposed to do?

21 A. The commission was supposed to establish whether in the territory

22 of these three municipalities there were any prisoner-of-war camps,

23 reception centres, investigation centres, and other forms of accommodation

24 of citizens.

25 Q. Was one of the tasks also to establish the role of the local

Page 5447

1 public security stations in detaining these persons and their further

2 processing in the areas of these municipalities?

3 A. Yes. That is specially highlighted in this decision.

4 Q. Thank you. Following this decision, is there a next document

5 which is a report, and can you tell us what this report is?

6 A. Yes. There is a report of the commission that visited these

7 municipalities and Public Security Services in Prijedor, Sanski Most, and

8 Bosanski Novi.

9 Q. At the bottom of the first page of this report, is there an

10 explanation given how they were established?

11 A. Yes. In paragraph 2 of this report, it is stated that the army of

12 the Serbian Republic had captured a large number of members of hostile or

13 enemy formations and other groups who were found in the zones of armed

14 conflicts.

15 Q. If I can take you to the next page of that report. Does it refer

16 to a decision by the Crisis Staff?

17 A. Yes. On page 2, the Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality adopted

18 a decision to establish a reception and accommodation for persons who are

19 seeking protection in Trnopolje, and that the prisoners of war, for

20 processing purposes, be kept in Keraterm facility, that is, in the

21 administration building and the RZR workshop in Omarska.

22 Q. Is it correct that on page 3 of this report, the location and

23 structures of the Keraterm facility are described?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Let's just move on. On page 3, paragraph 2,

Page 5448

1 is it stated that the military personnel brought these detainees and that

2 the public security station personnel was to provide security?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And under whose authority was the Omarska camp placed?

5 A. Under the authority of police and the military.

6 Q. Were -- did Security Services Centres in Banja Luka and the

7 command of the Banja Luka Corps take an active part in this? Did they

8 become actively involved?

9 A. They did.

10 Q. Very well. We'll move along. Does it say further that because of

11 the increase in hostilities and the increase of the number of detained

12 persons, the capacity of these facilities had become too limited? And did

13 the Crisis Staff reach any decision about that?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. What did the Crisis Staff decide?

16 A. The Crisis Staff decided to transfer all the detainees from

17 Keraterm to Omarska.

18 Q. On 27 May 1992, was this decision of the Crisis Staff implemented,

19 that is to transfer all the detainees from Keraterm to Omarska?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Together with these detainees, did the mixed teams of operatives

22 also move to the new facility?

23 A. Yes, because it was decided that Omarska was to be the

24 investigation centre for prisoners of war, and operational processing was

25 to be continued there.

Page 5449

1 Q. Will you now please move on to page 7 of this report, and the

2 heading is "The Role of the Prijedor Public Security Station and its

3 Employees." At the bottom of the page, does it state on the basis of

4 whose decision did the police officers provide physical security for

5 Keraterm facility and to transport of prisoners to Omarska?

6 A. Yes. It is stated that on the basis of the Crisis Staff decision,

7 the police personnel attended to the physical security of the Keraterm

8 facility in Prijedor, and then the transport of the prisoners to Omarska.

9 Q. Very well. I just want to take to you page 16 of the report now,

10 to tell me who signed this document and to whom it was distributed?

11 A. The report was signed by a four-member commission: Vojin Bera as

12 its President; Vaso Skondric, member; Ranko Mijic; Jugoslav Rodic,

13 member. And it was distributed to the Security Services Centre in Banja

14 Luka, to its chief, attention of the chief, to the members of the

15 commission, and to the public security services chiefs.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, the Defence

17 would like to tender this document and can we also have it marked?


19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the decision by the security services

20 is Exhibit D32/2. There is no translation attached.

21 The report is Exhibit D33/2.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. These reports, as you have already stated in your expert opinion,

24 indicate that a major role in the territory of the Prijedor municipality

25 was played by the Crisis Staff; is that correct?

Page 5450












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5451

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. Did this Crisis Staff at a certain point in time in the Prijedor

3 municipality have a different role, or was it renamed?

4 A. The Crisis Staff was formed because the municipal assembly in

5 Prijedor failed to meet due to the conditions of war, and on the 14th of

6 July --

7 Q. Please, I will now distribute a document that you have had a

8 chance to see.

9 Mr. Lakcevic, can you please tell us what is this document, date

10 of this document and the subject?

11 A. The municipality of Prijedor, on the 24th of July, 1992, verifies

12 the decisions within the competence of the municipal assembly which were

13 adopted by the Crisis Staff.

14 Q. Thank you. Does this document state that the Crisis Staff, or

15 later on renamed as the War Presidency, in the period between the 29th of

16 May 1992 until the 24th of July 1997, that it made important decisions?

17 Please, I would just like a very brief answer.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This document contains a number of conclusions. It has been given

20 to everybody. I just want to refer you to the date the 31st of May. What

21 was the conclusion reached by the Crisis Staff?

22 A. Item 1, the decision on prohibiting the return of the prisoners to

23 Trnopolje and Prijedor.

24 Q. Page 7 of this document, the date is the 12th of June 1992,

25 please, what is the conclusion listed as item 8?

Page 5452

1 A. It is the conclusion on the continued operation of the logistics

2 base in Sipolje, and the provision of food for refugees and prisoners.

3 Q. Can we now go on to page 9 of this document? Can you please tell

4 us what is the decision reached in item 11?

5 A. Decision on remuneration to the reserve police force for the month

6 of April 1992.

7 Q. On page 11, item 4, the date is the 2nd of July 1992. Can you

8 please tell us what is this conclusion?

9 A. This is the conclusion concerning the prohibition of individual

10 releases from Trnopolje, Omarska and Keraterm.

11 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please tell us who signed this

12 document?

13 A. It's right at the end of the document. We only have an indication

14 of the signature without the actual signature. That's the President of

15 the municipal assembly, Dr. Milomir Stakic.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like this document

17 to be tendered -- the Defence wishes to tender this into evidence and asks

18 for a number to be assigned.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is Exhibit D34/2.


21 Q. [Interpretation] Apart from the conclusion in the overall report

22 about the prohibition of releasing the prisoners, did you see a decision

23 regarding the release of certain prisoners?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Just a moment. The usher will show you the document. It has been

Page 5453

1 distributed to other parties as well. Can you please tell us who issued

2 this document?

3 A. I have seen this document. I used it. And it was signed by the

4 Crisis Staff.

5 Q. What is the date of this document, of this decision?

6 A. The date is the 2nd of June 1992.

7 Q. What is the actual title of this document, of this decision?

8 A. "The Decision on the Release of Persons from Captivity, of

9 Imprisoned Persons."

10 Q. In five articles contained in this decision, it is stipulated

11 specifically who it is that may be released. Could you please tell the

12 Trial Chamber what does Article 6 of this decision deal with? What does

13 it stipulate?

14 A. Article 6 of this decision stipulates that the public security

15 station shall be in charge of the implementation of this decision and that

16 the chief of the public security station shall be deemed personally

17 responsible for it, as he has the exclusive right to sign orders to

18 release any imprisoned persons.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence wishes to

20 tender this document into evidence and asks for a number to be assigned to

21 it.


23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is Exhibit D35/2.

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to

25 distribute the next document.

Page 5454

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Can you please tell us: What is this document, who issued this

4 document, and on which date?

5 A. This is an order issued by the Crisis Staff on the 2nd of July,

6 1992.

7 Q. Is it true that in this order all organs and enterprises are

8 ordered to terminate the employment of workers who have participated in

9 the armed rebellion and who are currently in Omarska and Keraterm?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. Does this order also indicate who is authorised to provide

12 information about such persons to these organs?

13 A. Yes. It is the Prijedor Public Security Station.

14 Q. Does this order also stipulate who is to make sure that it is

15 implemented?

16 A. Yes. This order stipulates that the public security station and

17 the competent municipal inspections shall be responsible for the execution

18 of this order.

19 Q. Yes. Can you please tell us who signed this order?

20 A. The order was signed by the president of the Crisis Staff,

21 Dr. Milomir Stakic.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]. Thank you.

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. When analysing documents in the course of writing your expert

Page 5455












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5456

1 opinion, were you able to gain an impression that apart from the police

2 officers - first primarily I am referring to reserve police officers to

3 whom the indictment actually refers - that in the making of decisions,

4 that some other organs also took part in the making of the decision, or

5 some high-ranking persons from the military, the Ministry of the Interior,

6 and the civilian authorities?

7 A. Yes. I became convinced that this was precisely what happened.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 I would now like to ask the usher to distribute the next

10 document.

11 Q. Can you please tell us: What is this document, who issued it,

12 when, and who is it addressed to?

13 A. This document was issued by the command of the 1st Krajina Corps

14 on the 3rd of August, 1992. It is addressed to the command of the 43rd

15 Motor -- I don't really know which unit it is.

16 Q. It is a motorised brigade?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. The Manjaca camp command, the Security Services Centre in

20 Prijedor - but that is not correct. It should be the Public Security

21 Station in Prijedor - the security service --

22 Q. Can you tell us who signed this document, this decision, rather?

23 A. It is signed by Commander Major General Momir Talic, but there is

24 a stamp here and somebody else signed for the commander, but it is

25 typewritten here "Momir Talic."

Page 5457

1 Q. Does the signatory of this document refer to an order issued by

2 the Chief of the General Staff of the Republika Srpska army indicating

3 that an international commission, with the journalists, are authorised to

4 visit the camps in Manjaca, Omarska, Trnopolje, and Keraterm?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Please answer very briefly. What is stated next in the order?

7 What measures are to be taken with regard to this visit?

8 A. The commander orders that the camps are to be brought into an

9 appropriate condition. That means order, cleanliness, functioning of the

10 medical care for the prisoners, proper records of the reception of the

11 prisoners, their release, registration of those who died, and findings on

12 the causes of their death.

13 Q. Thank you. Is it further stated in this document what the nature

14 of this task actually is?

15 A. Yes. It is an urgent task. An international commission is not to

16 be prohibited from visiting the camps in any way.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we wish to tender this

18 document into evidence and to be given a number.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, I see you're document-laden this

20 morning. How many more documents do you have to tender?

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Apart from these two, I also need

22 numbers for the previous documents, and I still have one more document to

23 tender -- sorry, two more documents. I need the numbers for the previous

24 two documents, and two more documents are to be tendered by me.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let us give them numbers.

Page 5458

1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The previous document, order

2 dated 2nd of July, 1992, is Exhibit D36/2. This document signed by Major

3 General Momir Talic is Exhibit D37/2.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Lakcevic, were you able to see the document that refers to the

6 centres at Trnopolje, Keraterm, and Omarska that was subject of a debate

7 of the government of Republika Srpska?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. The usher will show it to you. Will you please tell us what is

10 this document, who is its author, and when it was compiled.

11 A. The document was compiled by the government of the Serbian

12 Republic on 19 August 1992. Is that the correct date?

13 Q. Yes, it is. What type of document is it? Are these minutes?

14 A. Yes. It is minutes of the closed session of the government of the

15 Serb Republic.

16 Q. Is this document labelled as confidential?

17 A. Yes. It is labelled as strictly confidential.

18 Q. Can you tell me what the government discussed as per item 2?

19 A. The government adopted several conclusions.

20 Q. Sorry, I'm just asking you about what was discussed under item 2.

21 A. I'm sorry. Government discussed and adopted the commission report

22 on the visits to collection centres and other structures used for

23 prisoners in the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and it assessed that the

24 report realistically described the situation in these facilities.

25 Q. Did the government adopt some conclusions which included that it

Page 5459

1 would regularly follow the situation in the facilities used for prisoners

2 as collection centres and similar facilities?

3 A. Yes, it did.

4 Q. Does the government also state that it will try to arrange that

5 the competent organs in municipalities ensure that the premises are

6 suitable?

7 A. Yes. It states that it will try to arrange that these competent

8 organs ensure suitable premises.

9 Q. Did the government, under item 2, say that it will ensure better

10 living conditions in these facilities?

11 A. Yes, of course. And all this was in accordance with the

12 provisions as set out in international conventions.

13 Q. Is it also pointed out that the conditions at Manjaca camp were

14 particularly poor, and that it gives a task of improving the conditions?

15 A. Yes. This is on page 2, and that is what one of the adopted

16 conclusions are.

17 Q. Can you tell me what the government concluded under item 3?

18 A. The government concluded that, because of the difficult situation

19 in the provision of food supplies and the approaching winter, the

20 competent ministries and the organs and companies would take adequate

21 measures to resolve this issue successfully.

22 Q. Did the government designate the Ministry of Defence as the body

23 which will take measures to ensure that these facilities be turned over

24 for the safeguarding by the army?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5460












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5461

1 Q. Will you -- how about item 5?

2 A. In item 5, the Ministries of Defence and Ministry of Interior are

3 tasked with drafting regulations on the treatment of prisoners of war who

4 were accommodated in the collection or investigation centres, or other

5 facilities where these people were accommodated, and it is signed by

6 Professor Branko Dzeric, the Prime Minister.

7 Q. Taking into account this item point 5, does that mean to you that

8 there were no specific rules guiding the treatment of prisoners of war?

9 A. That is correct.

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence tenders this

11 document as an exhibit.


13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] And can we please have it marked?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It's Exhibit D38/2.


16 Q. [Interpretation] In your report, you refer to one of the documents

17 that have already been entered in evidence before this Trial Chamber,

18 which is the rosters of Prijedor II Police Stations for 5 and 6 July 1992,

19 which is the Exhibit number D41/1, and D41 -- 42/1.

20 MR. RODIC: Can I please ask the usher to show them to the

21 witness?

22 Q. Have you had an opportunity to see this document, the duty roster

23 for the Prijedor II Public Security Station for 5 and 6 May 1992?

24 A. Yes. I have seen it and I've used it in my report.

25 Q. Is this a key document from which we can see the structure of

Page 5462

1 Police Station Prijedor II?

2 A. Yes. This is a crucial document that clears up and explains a

3 number of things.

4 Q. Does this roster reflect very precisely the structure and duties

5 of Prijedor II Police Station?

6 A. Yes, both the official duties and the structure of Prijedor II

7 Police Station. And it is expressly stated there that there is a

8 commander of the police station, his deputy, in other words official

9 positions, two assistants, also official positions, officer on duty, the

10 duty desk with two policemen in three shifts each, duties in the police

11 station, the logistics person, the administrative worker, the typist, duty

12 drivers, driver of a truck, an official position, a bus driver, official

13 position, and then the patrol and beat duties, the security of the

14 building of the Prijedor II Police Station, security of persons, Keraterm

15 security, security of the hospital, and the security of the post office

16 building, the bank and so on, and the standby group.

17 Q. Based on this document, can you tell me who was the person in

18 charge of all the operations and tasks in this police station?

19 A. It was the commander of the police station, his deputy, and two

20 assistant commanders.

21 Q. Can you tell us about the commander of the police station, does he

22 control and command this police station?

23 A. Yes. Commander of the police station both controls and commands

24 the police station. He organises, plans and controls the operations and

25 tasks. And something that is significant for this case, he gives

Page 5463

1 assignments to various duties, and oversees that it is done in legal -- in

2 a legal way. And if there are failures to conform with these regulations,

3 he undertakes disciplinary measures.

4 Q. What is the duty of the deputy commander in the police station?

5 A. The deputy commander replaces or substitutes for the commander

6 when he is absent. He also takes part in the organisation and planning,

7 and, again, in respect of this case, it is crucial that he prepares the

8 daily assignments of the personnel and is monitoring the fulfilment of

9 duties.

10 Q. Does he also take part in some kind of control?

11 A. Yes. If ordered by the commander, or when the commander is

12 absent, he takes over the immediate control in the implementation of

13 duties and tasks and is involved in everything that is involved with the

14 shift that is on duty on that day.

15 Q. Can you tell me what an assistant commander's job is?

16 A. An assistant commander - and each police station can have two or

17 more such positions - he takes care of the professional execution of the

18 tasks, which includes providing security to the facilities; and he sends

19 the personnel to certain tasks; and he also keeps records that are kept at

20 the police station; and again, something that is significant for this

21 case, he also oversees the organisation of the reserve police, the mobile

22 units: their size, their armaments, and their training.

23 Q. Are records kept in the police station?

24 A. Yes. There are work records, operative records, and also on the

25 use of coercive instruments such as police batons or weapons, and so on.

Page 5464

1 Also in relation to this case, what is important is the assignment

2 schedule. The assignment schedule contains the name and the duty of a

3 certain employee for that day and his daily duties and tasks for the day.

4 This assignment schedule is then completed at the end of each month.

5 Q. Can you now tell me who, based on the rules of service of the

6 public security service, who is the person who controls the fulfilment of

7 duties, and how is this control exercised?

8 A. As I pointed out, the commander of the station is the person who

9 is most in charge, who is the person who controls and commands and who

10 ensures the legality and the proper implementation of police authority,

11 and he is the one who also exercises control, and also his deputy and his

12 assistant do as well. And in conformity with similar practices all around

13 the world, these controls are done at various intervals of time and

14 suddenly, that is, without previous announcement.

15 Q. According to this document, you listed building security, person

16 security, Keraterm security, hospital security, and security in other

17 buildings, such as the post office, health care centre, bank, and so on.

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. What is specifically the task of these persons in shifts when it

20 comes to providing security in these facilities? What is it that they can

21 do, according to this roster?

22 A. On the basis of this document, tasks are assigned to these

23 persons. I will not go into specific tasks, but you have the name, the

24 full name of the person, and that person's official function. In this

25 case, it is stipulated that they are to provide security in Keraterm and

Page 5465












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Page 5466

1 indicate the full name of the police officer who is tasked with this for

2 that specific day. The police role would be for a police officer to

3 receive a written order, with his full name, whenever he goes out in the

4 field to carry out some tasks, and sometimes in addition you would have

5 his specific task. If the tasks are general, there is no need to

6 restipulate them, but after the end of his shift, a professional police

7 officer and a police officer in the reserve police, if he has been trained

8 accordingly, he must on the reverse side of the document write a report on

9 his work, on what he has noted or observed regarding some events or

10 perhaps incidents, and he can also give his proposals. He then signs this

11 document and gives it either to the police station commander, his deputy,

12 or assistant. Sometimes he can even submit this document to the duty

13 officer if the above-mentioned persons are not present.

14 Q. Thank you. Is it correct to say that these security operations

15 involve only providing physical security to these buildings?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. Providing physical security for each of these buildings, would it

18 be the same to protect the building?

19 A. The task of physical security of a building is to act in

20 accordance with the rules that apply to this particular building, which

21 means that they provide security to persons inside the building, either

22 officials or, in this case, the prisoners, and the very building itself,

23 and any valuable objects that may be contained therein. So this is only

24 physical security.

25 Q. According to this duty roster, as regards all the buildings that

Page 5467

1 were secured by the members of this police station, are any functions

2 specified, any functions that any members of the police station would have

3 when carrying out -- when providing security to these facilities?

4 A. I have not seen any such documents which I interpret as the fact

5 that there aren't any such documents.

6 Q. In light of the task of providing physical security, shift work on

7 providing physical security, and also bearing in mind the fact that the

8 functions in the police station are listed in this duty roster, if anybody

9 had any function in the physical security, would not that function be

10 specified in this duty roster, since, as you have said, this is a key

11 document for the functioning of this police station?

12 A. My answer would be not that it should be listed there; it has to

13 be. It must be listed there. In police work, laws must be respected.

14 You have to have a superior and a subordinate. If everybody is equal,

15 then nobody can be in charge. This document specifies typists, three

16 types of drivers: the duty driver, bus driver, and truck driver. If

17 anyone were to have a specific function of a position of authority in the

18 physical security, it would have to be listed here in very specific terms.

19 Q. If there were a function assigned to one of the police officers

20 providing security, would the importance of such a function in the police

21 chain of command, would this function have to be listed?

22 A. Yes, I'm sure.

23 Q. You said that members of the police station are assigned to their

24 tasks and controlled by the police station commander or his deputy or

25 assistant; is that correct?

Page 5468

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. In -- previously during the examination-in-chief, I asked you

3 about the emergency security operations among other types of security

4 operations. Would emergency security in this specific case, bearing in

5 mind all the documents that you have studied, could it refer to the

6 physical security in the Keraterm facility?

7 A. My view is -- this is my view, and I base it on my rich experience

8 in police work, not only in operational terms but also in the education

9 and training of police personnel, and also in drafting some police

10 regulations in the former SFRY.

11 Q. Does it mean yes?

12 A. Yes, definitely.

13 Q. Can you tell us, as regards the legislation and the fact that the

14 accused Damir Dosen was a member of this Prijedor II Police Station, who

15 orders and who controls the task of emergency physical security?

16 A. Please be more specific. Do you mean Keraterm? In Keraterm? Or

17 in general?

18 Q. I mean in general. Who is it who issues the order and who

19 controls the implementation of the task of emergency physical security in

20 a facility?

21 A. When a need arises for emergency physical security - I'm now

22 speaking in general terms - when such a situation occurs, that the police

23 officers either from the active or from the reserve police force may be

24 involved in providing security for some large public event, then together

25 with the public security station chief, the police station commander will

Page 5469

1 set out the needs for the emergency physical security. He will give a

2 security assessment, the number of personnel, the time period, arrival and

3 departure from the location, communications equipment to be used,

4 equipment -- other equipment to be used. It has to be done in such a way

5 that it is a study of tasks with very specific tasks, both in the facility

6 itself or in the open space. And then the police station commander will

7 carry out the control, with his deputy, with his assistants. And this

8 indeed guarantees that the security will be carried out and provided in

9 accordance with the security plan.

10 Q. Would it be fair to say - and please correct me if I'm wrong -

11 that the person issuing the order for emergency physical security and the

12 person controlling the implementation of the task are one and the same

13 person?

14 A. The decision is made by the commander, together with the public

15 security service chief, or his deputy if he is absent, but officially this

16 is the police station commander, who then, through his deputy or

17 assistants, carries out the control.

18 Q. You're talking about the station control -- commander?

19 A. Yes, I am, I'm sorry.

20 Q. You mentioned the security plan. Do the employees engaged in

21 security, emergency security, have to be notified or informed about this

22 plan?

23 A. Yes, because the rule is for all these people, or a large number

24 of those, if it's impossible to gather them all in one place, to inform

25 them about the security plan and all the relevant elements that are

Page 5470












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5471

1 important for the implementation of the security. That means that a

2 police officer providing security has to be given detailed and specific

3 information about this plan, because, otherwise, he would not be able to

4 carry it out, unless he is given direct insight into this plan with all

5 the details.

6 Q. The commanding -- the superior person who ordered the security to

7 be carried out, is he also in charge of controlling the implementation of

8 this plan?

9 A. His command and control function makes it incumbent upon him to do

10 so, and the rules on internal structure and systematisation of tasks in

11 each Ministry of the Interior, and therefore you're now talking about the

12 Republika Srpska, it also applies to this ministry, specifies all the

13 tasks very clearly, and the -- his main obligation, his main duty, is

14 indeed to control the proceedings and to control the legality of the

15 proceedings and to initiate appropriate action against those persons who

16 are not in compliance with it. Whether it would be a criminal proceedings

17 or disciplinary proceedings, it depends on the gravity of the offence

18 committed by the police officer or other police employee.

19 Q. In a wartime situation, the tasks of providing security --

20 securing persons in the Keraterm facility, bearing in mind the fact that

21 these are not persons serving their sentence, persons who do not have any

22 documents indicating why they have been detained, any detention orders or

23 anything, in such a situation, would the physical security of the Keraterm

24 facility, could it be subsumed under the emergency security tasks in

25 accordance with the legislation as it exists?

Page 5472

1 A. Yes. I took that stand in my expert opinion, and I stand by my

2 opinion. I am actually quite happy, as a lawyer, to see that you

3 distinguish between the terms "prison," "detention," "limiting the freedom

4 of movement," although this is not the time or the place to discuss this,

5 but perhaps there are some indications that I base on your reasoning, and

6 also Article 12, paragraph 3, of the International Covenant on Civil and

7 Political Rights, that when it comes to security of a state, of a republic

8 or public security, in those cases, freedom of movement may be limited in

9 a certain facility or a certain area for certain reasons. But it is my

10 view that, in Keraterm, we are talking about emergency security.

11 Q. Based on the documents that you have studied and documents that

12 have been presented here, you saw that the Crisis Staff made a decision to

13 establish the Keraterm facility, that it was done in agreement with the

14 Public Security Station in Prijedor, and with the Prijedor II Police

15 Station, under whose jurisdiction the Keraterm facility actually was. I

16 would therefore like to ask you if persons who issued this decision should

17 have made a security plan of some kind for these facilities?

18 A. Yes, precisely. This is a very serious and very sensitive issue,

19 impinging upon the liberties and rights of citizens, but for some reasons

20 of national and public security, it should come under certain

21 restrictions, but it can only be done for a restricted period of time and

22 in restricted circumstances. And this security plan should have been very

23 clear and it should have been different from other plans dealing with the

24 security in post offices and banks and so on and so forth. Here we have

25 persons, we need to check whether they have committed some offence. There

Page 5473

1 might be some doubts for this, but we have to also confirm those doubts.

2 Q. We are now talking about physical security and police officers

3 involved in the emergency physical security in Keraterm. That's what we

4 are talking about at this point in time. I just wanted to ask you about

5 the security plan, whether this plan would regulate, among other things,

6 the number of persons providing security, the weapons they had, the

7 equipment they had?

8 A. Yes. I spoke about this perhaps half an hour ago, but let me

9 repeat. The plan for the physical security in Keraterm must, first of

10 all, very clearly specify the security situation, then list the persons

11 that are being secured, the number of police officers and which police

12 officers are to be there, everything that is needed from the security

13 point of view, in shifts - we are talking about the police - when persons

14 are to get there, where they are to leave, who is to control all this.

15 This plan, which should have been issued by the Crisis Staff, should also

16 contain other issues important for the life of the people there.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, we are at 1.00. How much longer do

18 you have? I thought myself that you would have completed your examination

19 before the end of the break.

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I thought that myself, but we have

21 some technical problems because we had to tender so many documents. I

22 believe that I will be able to complete the examination-in-chief in 20

23 minutes after the break.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I suspect --

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] And I have only one more document to

Page 5474

1 tender, as I have already said.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Another 20 minutes, and Mr. Greaves and Sir Ivan

3 will have questions, yes, I'm sure, because we have to complete the

4 examination of this witness today, because we are not sitting tomorrow.

5 We are going to take the break now.

6 Dr. Lakcevic, we will take the break now for lunch. We will

7 resume at 2.30. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your

8 evidence with anybody, and that includes the members of the Defence.

9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.

















Page 5475












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5476

1 --- On resuming at 2.44 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge May and myself are here alone because Judge

3 Fassi Fihri is indisposed. I propose to apply Rule 15 bis of the Rules of

4 Procedure, which allows us to proceed with the proceedings where one of

5 our members is absent due to illness.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Rodic.

7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Dr. Lakcevic, the task of securing of facilities, property, and

9 persons exclude the --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Will you please repeat the question. It was not

11 very clearly stated.

12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Let's say if we have emergency security of facilities, do they

14 exclude any influence of the person who is involved in terms of the

15 purpose of securing such a facility?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us: In terms of the responsibility of police

18 officers -- first off, something about the active-duty police officers.

19 A. The law on internal affairs of all republics of the former SFRY

20 and the law from the Republika Srpska, which I also reviewed, they all

21 provide that disciplinary procedures of an active-duty policeman who is

22 fully employed proceeds according to certain specific procedures. Taking

23 into account that an infraction was committed, then a disciplinary report

24 is filed, and in a specific case it would be a report filed by someone to

25 the commander of the Police Station Prijedor II, which would then take

Page 5477

1 this report, he would take a statement of the person in question, and

2 other documents. He would then send it off to the commander of the public

3 security station, and the chief of the public security service would

4 handle this matter further and would then -- he would be in charge

5 of -- institute the proceedings, and it would be adjudicated before the

6 commission composed of three members, and the person can then file -- he

7 can also appeal to the decision, but the punishment or the sanctions are

8 usually monetary in nature.

9 Q. Try to repeat when the complaint is filed to the public security

10 service chief.

11 JUDGE MAY: We don't need this repetition. Now, time is short.

12 This has been going on for some time. We have a report, may I remind you,

13 Mr. Rodic, of this witness, which should cover all these matters. You've

14 now been going for nearly three hours in chief, and we have to finish this

15 afternoon.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll be done in about

17 five to ten minutes.

18 A. In other words, the disciplinary prosecutor that is appointed by

19 the Minister of the Interior will receive any such reports and will

20 institute proceedings before a disciplinary commission. It can be -- the

21 sanction can be a monetary fine, it could be a demotion to lower-ranking

22 jobs, or it can be something else.

23 Q. Can disciplinary proceedings be instituted against a reserve

24 police officer as well?

25 A. The distinction between the reserve and active-duty police

Page 5478

1 officers is such that the reserve officer, in case of an infraction, can

2 be fired or removed from the position on the reserve force, and the person

3 who appointed him there is notified of it.

4 Q. Is such a reserve police officer returned to the military office

5 in order to be reassigned to a military type of duty?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. Can you tell us, in wartime circumstances - during the war, in

8 other words - is the police force attached to the military, in terms of

9 their overall authority, in terms of discipline?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In principle, is it true that the reserve police officers are

12 mobilised because of additional need for manpower in special,

13 extraordinary circumstances?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do reserve police officers, in principle, carry out less complex

16 tasks?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And just one more question: In the police organs, are records,

19 official records, kept on its members?

20 A. Yes. Such records are kept.

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] And if I can just ask the usher for

22 his assistance in distributing the last document?

23 Q. Can you tell us what this document is? Who issued it?

24 A. Before me, I have a certificate issued by the public -- Police

25 Station Prijedor II on 16 July 2001, which certifies that Damir Dosen from

Page 5479

1 Prijedor was engaged as a reserve police officer without any leadership

2 positions.

3 Q. Can you tell us whether the Prijedor II Police Station, on the

4 basis on its official records, was authorised to issue such a document?

5 A. Yes, of course, and it did.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

7 questions. This concludes my examination-in-chief, and I tender this

8 document as Defence exhibit, also would request it to be marked. And I

9 would also like to tender the expert report of Dr. Lakcevic, including the

10 English translation that was provided by the CLSS this morning.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Those documents are admitted and will be

12 numbered. Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

13 Cross-examination, Mr. Greaves?

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

15 Q. Dr. Lakcevic, the evidence that you have given relates to the role

16 and position of Damir Dosen. The question I'm about to ask you can be

17 answered, I think, either "yes" or "no" quite simply, and it's this:

18 Would you accept that what you have written and said about Damir Dosen's

19 position as a reserve police officer applies equally to all the other

20 reserve police officers who were at Keraterm?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

24 Sir Ivan?

25 MR. LAWRENCE: Your Honours, we, on behalf of Kolundzija, adopt

Page 5480












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5481

1 the evidence given by Dr. Lakcevic, on behalf of Dosen. And I wonder if

2 my learned friend Mr. Ryneveld would be able to make the admission, which

3 I've given warning that I would ask for, that Kolundzija was at all

4 material times a reserve policeman on security duty at Keraterm?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly?

6 MS. BALY: Your Honours, if I may respond to the request sought by

7 my learned friend, the Prosecution is prepared to make that admission.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

9 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you very much.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence:

11 Q. Dr. Lakcevic you've been very thorough with your evidence so it

12 may be that you'll be able to answer my questions "yes" or "no" or very

13 shortly. Is what you have had to say about Dosen, in writing or orally,

14 applicable to Kolundzija if he was, as the Prosecution have just admitted,

15 a reserve police officer at all material times on duty, on guard duty, at

16 Keraterm?

17 A. Yes. And completely -- everything I have said or written about

18 the accused Dosen also refers to the accused Kolundzija.

19 Q. Thank you. Have you familiarised yourself with Article 7(3) of

20 the Statute of the International Tribunal?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Does it follow from the evidence that you have given that there

23 was no such official rank as shift commander or shift leader?

24 A. Yes, because such concepts, such terms, such official positions,

25 do not exist in police organs.

Page 5482

1 Q. Is it right that you have seen no document giving such an

2 authority to Kolundzija or any of the other reserve police officers at

3 Keraterm?

4 A. As far as the documents provided to me by the Dosen Defence

5 counsel are concerned, these are the documents that I examined, and in

6 addition to that, I answered the questions of Mr. Rodic. Other documents,

7 I do not have. The only things that I have are the documents on the 5th

8 or 6th of June, which clearly states their duties in -- without any

9 special provisions or attributes.

10 Q. Dr. Lakcevic, I had hoped that you might be able to answer that

11 question "yes," which I think is the end of it. So can we try and focus

12 the attention? If it is possible to say "yes" or "no," I would be

13 grateful. Is it right that the documents that you have seen tend to

14 indicate that there was no such rank?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is your view supported by evidence in the case that no such rank

17 has ever been claimed, there is no sign of rank on the uniform of the

18 guard, there is no additional pay for more responsibility, there is no

19 evidence of formal appointment? Is your conclusion strengthened by what

20 you have learned about the evidence in the trial?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it your evidence that therefore no one was subordinate to

23 anyone else amongst the guards?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And is it also your evidence that you would have expected a leader

Page 5483

1 of guards on any shift to have received training?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And have you been shown any evidence that any training was

4 received prior to August 1992 by any of the reserve guards at Keraterm?

5 A. I have not seen it.

6 Q. Is it your evidence that nowhere can you see that Kole,

7 Kolundzija, or Kajin, Dosen, had any power to discipline or punish guards

8 on their shift?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is it your evidence that the only power a guard like Kolundzija

11 would have, formally or informally, would be the power to complain and

12 report to the police station commander?

13 A. Yes, only that.

14 Q. And is it your evidence, having analysed the command structure for

15 Prijedor, that that police station commander was at all material times

16 Zivko Knezevic?

17 A. He was the commander, or, as the term is in B/C/S, komandir, not

18 the other term, which is commandant. But it is true that he was the

19 commander, komandir.

20 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. As appears, Your Honour, the question and the

21 answer at 150152 contains a double negative, which I'm anxious to remove.

22 I'm happy to accept that that was the way in which I asked the question

23 and the answer that was given is a double negative.

24 Q. Can I just do that again, please, Dr. Lakcevic? Do you agree that

25 Kole, Kolundzija, or Kajin, Dosen, had no power to discipline or punish

Page 5484

1 guards on their shift?

2 A. Yes. That is correct. He did not have that power.

3 Q. Thank you. Is it also your evidence that no reserve police guard

4 on shift at Keraterm would have power to order the army what to do?

5 A. Yes. I claim that with full responsibility.

6 Q. Does it follow that they could not order the army not to do

7 anything?

8 A. Yes, precisely.

9 Q. Did the army have a completely separate command at that level?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. And what reaction would you expect an army officer or ranking

12 soldier to offer if a police reserve guard told him to do or not to do

13 something?

14 A. I'm sorry. What reaction or what kind of conduct?

15 Q. Yes. Da, yes.

16 A. I have already answered this question when asked by Mr. Rodic,

17 when I stated that in wartime the military structure was superior to the

18 police structure. The answer would be that one could not be expected, a

19 police officer could not be expected to react in a specific way which

20 would be inappropriate. The only thing they can do is to submit in

21 writing, or perhaps orally, a report to his superior - that would be the

22 commander of the Prijedor II Police Station - that certain problems or

23 incidents had occurred between the military and the police in the Keraterm

24 camp.

25 Q. So the army would ignore, at the very highest, and you would

Page 5485












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13 and the English transcripts.


















Page 5486

1 expect perhaps be very rude, at the lowest, to any reserve policeman who

2 tried to get them to do or not to do something; is that the reality?

3 A. It would depend on the level of culture, and in particular, on the

4 level of security culture and the way in which one understood what one's

5 tasks were and how one is to conduct oneself.

6 Q. I won't press you further on that. Is it your evidence that a

7 guard in the position of Kolundzija or Dosen, or any reserve police

8 officer, as a guard, would have no power to change the main conditions at

9 Keraterm camp?

10 A. Yes, I assert that, because we have to make a distinction between

11 the organisation of the Keraterm camp from the physical security of the

12 facility, because those who organise the camp also foresee which state

13 organs or municipal organs, enterprises, and so on and so forth, would

14 have what duties related to the working conditions and living conditions

15 in the camp. Security would be provided by the police and the army.

16 Q. Can I put some specific examples to you? Would a mere guard have

17 power to order who should go to Keraterm camp?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Or who, having got there, was released from Keraterm camp?

20 A. No, likewise.

21 Q. Would they have any control over the number of people who were

22 sent to Keraterm camp?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So would they have any control over the overcrowding of Keraterm

25 camp?

Page 5487

1 A. No.

2 Q. Or the general sanitary condition of Keraterm camp?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Could a mere guard order how much food should be delivered to feed

5 the detainees in the camp overall?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Could a mere guard order how much water should be delivered daily

8 in a container to the camp?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Or how much medicines or how many doctors or nurses should be

11 brought to the camp?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Who would have such power?

14 A. As it was envisaged, or as it should have been envisaged by the

15 decision setting up the camp itself, and I think that Mr. Rodic presented

16 certain pieces of evidence which indicate that an order was issued that

17 only the chief of the Prijedor Public Security Service, Simo Drljaca,

18 could sign a release of prisoners. As regards the food, the management of

19 the company was supposed to provide it. As regards the medical care, it

20 was to be provided by the health care centre in Prijedor. Active-duty and

21 reserve police officers do not have the task to decide on this, because

22 this is outside of their purview. It is likewise outside of the

23 jurisdiction of the Prijedor II Police Station.

24 Q. And are all these reasons why you have concluded that a guard

25 would have no power to change the main conditions at Keraterm camp?

Page 5488

1 A. Yes. They had no powers at all.

2 Q. Now, we've heard in this case, and it is obviously so from the

3 evidence, that the guards did have a limited power to allow the use of the

4 telephone in the weighbridge hut, to allow families to bring in food, to

5 allow detainees to go to the toilet or to leave the hut, their rooms, to

6 lock or unlock the doors at certain times of the day or night, and to

7 direct the water hose to a room if it was getting very dry, and there can

8 be no dispute in the evidence of this case that guards could do those

9 limited actions. You draw a distinction between having the power to

10 change the main and fundamental conditions at the camp and the ability to

11 help in small ways that I've just outlined. Would you agree that there is

12 a distinction between those two kinds of benefit?

13 A. Yes. As a humanist, but also as a police officer and as a

14 legalist, that police officers engaged in security by these acts that you

15 have just enumerated, that they in fact breached certain rules; they went

16 beyond their actual powers in this respect. But as human beings, as

17 humane human beings, they did something for which I can only say that I

18 would do the same thing, despite the fact that this is a violation of

19 duty.

20 Q. Well, I'll come back to violation of duty in a moment, but is it

21 clear that a guard could only be expected to do these limited -- commit

22 these limited acts, beneficial acts, on his own shift?

23 A. Yes, but they would be acting on their own initiative, because

24 their official task is prescribed and they have to respect that. I

25 underline once again: You have to respect the minimum rights and

Page 5489

1 liberties of human beings, just as they are guaranteed in various

2 international conventions, and we all know that the rules of service in

3 the police force are very specific and that they regulate the conduct of

4 police officers. If they could not have, in accordance with those rules,

5 allowed any visits, yet they did it, they in fact committed a violation of

6 their duty. But I again underline that there is this humane behaviour

7 element in all this. This is something that all human beings should be

8 aware of and should do.

9 Q. I think we would all agree with you. Does it follow that what

10 you're saying is that if there was a specific order to lock doors of the

11 rooms of the detainees and the guard went against that, he would be

12 risking punishment --

13 A. Yes, precisely, but it also throws a light on their character.

14 Q. Well, never mind --

15 A. -- and shows that they're humane men.

16 Q. Never mind that. I'm just trying to ask you about the rules and

17 the way in which a guard formally would be expected to react. If a guard

18 repeatedly broke the rules and, for example, unlocked doors that should

19 have been locked, allowed the use of the guards' telephone, or did any

20 other positive act, could they expect to be punished?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And just tell us about the kind of punishment. You said there

23 would be fines and there would be discipline. In time of war, if guards

24 repeatedly broke the rules or the orders passed on to them by the camp

25 commander, what realistically would have been the likely punishment?

Page 5490












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Page 5491

1 A. I will refer to a specific case before this Trial Chamber, and I

2 state that since these were reserve police officers, the punishments

3 envisaged for active-duty police officers are not applicable to them.

4 They would be removed from the reserve force, they would be removed from

5 their posts in physical security, and the military office would be

6 informed about it, and I assume that they would be sent to the front by

7 the military office.

8 Q. And therefore they might very well risk death?

9 A. Yes, exactly.

10 Q. Now, coming back to the differences between the two kinds of

11 conditions, the overall conditions, the fundamental conditions at the camp

12 that you've told us that guards would have no control over, and the very

13 limited day-to-day or hour-to-hour improvement that the guards might have

14 some ability to influence, which would result if they were breaking the

15 rules in discipline and punishment, would it be fair to call the second

16 kind of benefit the power of a guard to exercise influence over day-to-day

17 events as opposed to the power to change conditions fundamentally?

18 Influence as opposed to positive powers?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. So that what the guards had - and perhaps somebody who was

21 accepted to be the best guard on the shift and might be perceived as being

22 a shift leader - would be the power to influence some of the day-to-day

23 activities?

24 A. No. I'm sorry, I don't know if I understood you correctly. As

25 regards the activities that are prescribed, he can not influence it, but

Page 5492

1 as regards the acts he takes on his own initiative, and certain humane

2 acts that we have been discussing, that is all right, but he can not

3 change the conditions.

4 Q. You've already answered on that one and I think we just may be in

5 danger of misunderstanding each other's words, but I'm accepting what it

6 is that you have just said. Put it another way: The powers that such a

7 guard would have would be very low down the scale. Would you agree with

8 that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You said at the beginning that you weren't acquainted with Article

11 7(3) of the Statute. If I were to read it to you, would you be able to

12 tell me whether you'd ever heard of it and considered it?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan, that sounds very much like a matter of

14 law for the Chamber.

15 MR. LAWRENCE: The conclusion is indeed a matter for the Chamber,

16 but the detail of it, about which the witness, as an expert, has given

17 evidence, will of course assist the Chamber in coming to a conclusion as

18 to whether that article has been fulfilled or not.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's hear the question.


21 Q. One of the parts of the Article -- perhaps -- I was going to read

22 him the Article, so perhaps I might be allowed to do that. The Article,

23 which is short, reads:

24 "The fact that any of the acts referred to in Articles 2 to 5

25 which are grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, violations of the laws

Page 5493

1 and customs of war, genocide and crimes against humanity, the fact that

2 any of the acts referred to in those articles was committed by a

3 subordinate does not relieve his superior of criminal responsibility if he

4 knew or had reason to know that the subordinate was about to commit such

5 acts, or had done so and the superior failed to take the necessary and

6 reasonable measures to prevent such acts or to punish the perpetrators."

7 All right? Does that bring it back to you or have you still never

8 read it?

9 A. Yes, yes, I'm sorry, yes.

10 JUDGE MAY: He's either read it or he hasn't read it.

11 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. Well, I think what he meant, I'm only

12 guessing, when I first asked him about this, he didn't have it before him

13 and he probably didn't know what I was referring to. But having read him

14 the text, he is after all a teacher of law, and a teacher of law in this

15 field, he must -- can't conceive that he had no knowledge of it.

16 Q. But let me ask you one or two of the details about it. Did any

17 guard on a shift have a superior/subordinate relationship with any other

18 guard on the shift?

19 A. No.

20 Q. If he knew or had reason to know that some other guards on some

21 other shifts were misbehaving and mistreating, would he have any power to

22 influence that, before, during or after?

23 A. The only thing he may -- could have done was to report to the

24 Police Station Prijedor II commander of any incident or any type of

25 conduct that is in contravention of the rules of providing physical

Page 5494

1 security.

2 Q. And if it came to his ears that such mistreatment was taking

3 place, would any guard at Keraterm have had the power to punish the

4 perpetrators?

5 A. No.

6 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you, Dr. Lakcevic.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.

8 Ms. Baly?

9 MS. BALY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Cross-examined by Ms. Baly:

11 Q. Doctor, just to summarise the effect of your evidence,

12 particularly of the last few minutes, are you saying that in fact there

13 was no superior/subordinate relationships among the guards at all in

14 Keraterm camp?

15 A. Yes, precisely that.

16 Q. And in addition to that, the personnel who -- the reserve

17 policemen who were employed as personnel at the camp had no power to

18 influence any of the conditions in the camp?

19 A. I assert that with full responsibility, and this is supported by

20 all the documents presented here.

21 Q. And you indicated a short time ago that you had been -- you had

22 formed that view as a result of your own experience and your theoretical

23 knowledge, assisted by what you've learned about the evidence in this

24 case. Would that be a correct statement?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 5495












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Page 5496

1 Q. Now, what I want to ask you is: In terms of the evidence in this

2 case, have you read any of the statements from witnesses who have

3 testified in this case?

4 A. No, not a single one.

5 Q. Have you listened to any of the testimonies from witnesses who

6 have testified in this case?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Have you interviewed the accused on behalf of whom you are

9 testifying today, that is Damir Dosen?

10 A. No, I did not.

11 Q. Have you interviewed any of the accused?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You have, however, looked at some documents that have been

14 admitted into evidence in this case; correct?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Can you look, please, at this document, which is Exhibit D48/1?

17 MS. BALY: Please, Mr. Usher, thank you.

18 A. Can I have it in Serbian, please?

19 Q. I'm sorry, I thought I did have -- I'll move on while we are

20 obtaining the -- all right.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have it in B/C/S?

22 MS. BALY: We do, in evidence, Your Honour.


24 MS. BALY: The Registrar has the B/C/S copy.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you'll come back to that, Your Honour.

Page 5497

1 MS. BALY: I'll come back to that later, Your Honour.

2 Q. So let me just ask you about the fundamental conditions which you

3 say that the guards had absolutely no power to influence. They would of

4 course include access to water; would you agree with that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Access to food?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Access to medical treatment, in the event of illness or injury?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The right to be housed in sanitary and hygienic conditions?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The right not to be housed in overcrowded conditions?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And very fundamentally and importantly, to be protected from

15 ill-treatment and physical assault?

16 A. Please, in regard to what you just mentioned last, I can say that

17 the reserve policemen did not have the authority, nor in respect of

18 mistreatment. And they would have been liable, and they had to ensure

19 that nobody mistreated anyone there. And if I can just explain, which --

20 everything that I said yes to, of water, food, et cetera, is all

21 conditional. That means it depended on whether someone else, who had

22 organised, like the Crisis Staff had organised the Keraterm camp, had

23 specified who, at what time, could use water, medical, power, electricity

24 and so on. That was not the obligation of the guards who were on security

25 duty.

Page 5498

1 Q. All right. So you've just agreed with me that the -- those on

2 security duty did, in fact, have an obligation to ensure against the abuse

3 and ill-treatment of the prisoners?

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can my learned colleague please

7 repeat the question? It was not translated the way you had put it in

8 English.

9 MS. BALY: Yes, I'll do that.

10 Q. Doctor, have you just agreed with me that those who you say were

11 mere guards at the camp, with no powers, did in fact have an obligation to

12 prevent the abuse and ill-treatment of the inmates in the camp?

13 A. The answer would be the following: What were the duties, the

14 tasks, of guards in their posts? If their duties were to take care of the

15 detained persons, that is the persons who were in Keraterm, and to protect

16 their lives, et cetera, then they were supposed to take certain steps to

17 prevent this from taking place.

18 Q. Sir, what is the fundamental duty of a policeman or woman?

19 A. It depends on the job that they are carrying out, but the

20 fundamental duty is the protection of the constitutional order, the public

21 law and order, prevention of criminal acts, discovery of perpetrators of

22 criminal acts, and then traffic, citizenship issues and so on. In other

23 words - I need to repeat it, it seems - the basic, fundamental duties of

24 the police force are the protection of the constitutional order, the

25 protection of law and order, prevention of criminal acts, discovery of

Page 5499

1 perpetrators of criminal acts, protection of lives and property of

2 citizens, traffic control and so on and so forth.

3 Q. Well, the inmates who were housed at Keraterm camp were citizens;

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Therefore, it follows that the duties of those on duty as

7 policemen at Keraterm camp was, amongst other things, to protect those

8 persons against ill-treatment and abuse?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. Now, your task here in this case was, put simply, to comment upon

11 the task of the accused Damir Dosen; that's correct, isn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And to assist you to perform that task, of course you called upon

14 your own qualifications and experience as a person of theory, an academic;

15 would you agree with that?

16 A. I would not be able to completely agree with you, simply because I

17 used documents, and that was the basis - in other words, evidence - and we

18 referred to them. In other words, the duty of a telephone operator,

19 telegraph operator, his duty was to report if there are some incidents in

20 the camp or to receive information from the Police Station Prijedor II and

21 the things that may have needed to be transmitted to other guards, and so

22 on and so forth. So my knowledge is not purely theoretical, but I think

23 it is clear that every -- well, a regular person should know approximately

24 what a person who is in charge of manning a telephone should do and is

25 supposed to do.

Page 5500












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Page 5501

1 Q. Where were you during the period late 1991 and during spring and

2 summer of 1992?

3 A. I was in Belgrade.

4 Q. Did you visit the Keraterm Detention Centre at all?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. Did you visit Prijedor at all?

7 A. Never.

8 Q. At that time, from where did you derive your knowledge as to what

9 was going on in Prijedor, and in particular, at Keraterm camp?

10 A. I had documents that had been provided to me by the Defence

11 counsel. I had documents and a clearly defined area covered by Damir

12 Dosen, and from that I drew a conclusion that - and I think that this is

13 logical - that he had no superior authority over any guards, and also he

14 is a person who never underwent police training, did not attend the police

15 academy or any school. And if you will allow me --

16 Q. I'm sorry. Can I stop you there? The question was fairly focused

17 and I think you've answered it. Thank you.

18 During that time - that is, back in 1992 I'm asking you

19 about - where did you derive your knowledge of what was going on in

20 Prijedor at that time? From where? From what source? That's back in

21 1992.

22 A. I'm sorry. You mean in 1992 or now that I've been involved in

23 this?

24 Q. In 1992, when you were in Belgrade, during the conflict, from

25 where did you derive your knowledge as to what was going on in Prijedor?

Page 5502

1 A. Not just in Prijedor but overall in Bosnia. I was an active-duty

2 policeman at that time. At that time Yugoslavia did not fully break up,

3 so I was in a position to talk to persons who -- the Institute for

4 Security, where I was chair of a department, and I had discussions with

5 people, I had documents which now, eight or nine years later, I don't know

6 where they may be, and that formed the basis of my knowledge. But the

7 organisation of police could not have changed, and what I mean by that is

8 there were no conditions for changing them.

9 Q. Do you mean by that that the organisation of police didn't change

10 from times prior to 1992, that is, peacetimes, didn't change in 1992 when

11 the war broke out?

12 A. No, there were no changes, and there were very few changes since

13 that time, now in peacetime, because these are certain standards. I

14 learned recently that in Republika Srpska there are international

15 commissions working and they were being given assistance which is taking

16 them in a new direction. But in the time material to this case, it was

17 all the same.

18 Q. The time that is material to this case was indeed an extraordinary

19 time, quite a different time to the times experienced previously, correct,

20 and things went on that were quite different and quite outside of any

21 formal regulations or formal organisations; would you agree with that?

22 A. Partially.

23 Q. Well, let's focus on Keraterm camp. What do you understand the

24 purpose of Keraterm camp to have been?

25 A. In my previous evidence during my exchange with Mr. Rodic, I think

Page 5503

1 I provided part of the answer, but let's say that the starting point is

2 that the war spread out through Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is, as early

3 as 1991. The Main Board of the Serb Democratic Party adopted a decision

4 on the functioning of the organs of the Serb people, and a decision was

5 adopted to establish crisis staffs and that they would be activated should

6 the conflict erupt. And in Prijedor, as you should know fully well, in

7 the night between 29 and 30 of April, the SDS of Prijedor took over power

8 and then the municipal organs were transformed, and that included the

9 police.

10 The wartimes and hostilities require an assessment of the security

11 situation, and here I'm referring to prevention of serious conflicts and

12 the issue of national security, which is also set out in this

13 international covenant of civil and human -- political rights. All these

14 require that all persons who may be suspected of certain activities be

15 collected at one place, that they be operationally processed - in other

16 words, interviewed - and if there are any suspected criminal acts

17 involved, that such criminal acts should be further investigated. And I

18 think that in my previous discussion, I believe we have established that

19 it was the military who first brought in about 600 suspects to Keraterm,

20 and that because of the inadequate staffing at Keraterm, it was asked that

21 the Banja Luka Security Services Centre and the Banja Luka core security

22 staff provide additional personnel which would then provide these

23 additional professional services, which included further investigation and

24 interviews which were part of the procedures that were provided for in the

25 old SFRY law. And if I may be permitted one more thing --

Page 5504

1 Q. Well, are you saying, sir, that Keraterm camp was set up for a

2 legitimate purpose? Is that a summary of your evidence, a fair summary?

3 A. Yes. Yes, you could sum it up that way.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. But --

6 Q. Just let me ask the questions. The situation was that ordinary

7 civilian people of non-Serbian ethnicity were rounded up, arrested, and

8 taken by force and held by force at the Keraterm Detention Camp. That is

9 in fact what happened, sir; that's correct, isn't it?

10 A. I would partially agree with you, but I can treat Keraterm

11 precisely as a facility for the limited, confined movement of people,

12 because the national security of the Serbs was primary. But there are

13 documents that show who had free movement at the time, and I think that it

14 was provided by the Prosecution. And it is stated there that those who

15 were innocent were given permits for limited free movement - in other

16 words, they were free - which precisely points out the fact that if a

17 mistake had been made about detaining someone but it was later determined

18 that he is no threat to the national security or to anyone, then they were

19 issued permits by the local police which allowed them to move about. But

20 those who had committed some criminal acts, as we pointed out here, they

21 were transferred to Omarska, and these professional teams from the police,

22 military, and state security apparatus would transfer there for further

23 processing.

24 Q. What was the purpose of Omarska camp? You yourself have given

25 evidence in the Omarska case, so you're familiar with the purpose of the

Page 5505












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Page 5506

1 Omarska camp; is that right? And can you comment, please, on what the

2 purpose, as you see it, was.

3 A. I may start with something that is perhaps less important but

4 still important. The perimeter of Omarska, the compound of Omarska, which

5 was much larger than Keraterm, and the persons who were brought there

6 would potentially have better treatment and more humane treatment. That

7 would be one person. The other point is that in Keraterm, only

8 provisional information, initial information, was gathered, and on the

9 basis of the assessment of professionals from military and police

10 structures, if some of them were discovered as having committed certain

11 criminal acts, they would be sent on to Omarska to clear up what they had

12 done and whether it merits criminal proceedings or not.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, you've said that Omarska, there was room for

14 potentially better treatment and more humane treatment. What in fact

15 happened to the prisoners in Omarska camp? How were they in fact treated?

16 A. I'm sorry, but I cannot say that now because I was not there, and

17 whatever I said in regard of Mr. Prcac is something that I stand by.

18 Q. Because you obtained your evidence -- I'm sorry, you obtained your

19 knowledge as to actually what went on in Omarska and Keraterm camps from

20 documents; that's correct, isn't it?

21 A. I'm a legalist, and to me, this evidence has a primary

22 significance in comparison to any personal views.

23 Q. So what you're saying, sir - just correct me if I'm wrong - is

24 that the documents that you looked at should be relied upon, to be given

25 more weight, than anybody's personal experience, anyone who had been at

Page 5507

1 either of the camps; is that fair? Is that a fair summary of what you've

2 just said?

3 A. Material evidence anywhere, in any criminal proceedings, have

4 primacy over any personal statements, provided that they are authentic and

5 that they have merits, that is that they are truthful, that they are not

6 false in any way.

7 Q. For example, you looked at what is now Exhibit D31/2 - excuse me

8 for a moment - which was a report from the Ministry of the Interior

9 Security Services Centre Banja Luka, Public Security Station Prijedor,

10 that was a report, that was a secret report and strictly confidential. Do

11 you remember giving some evidence about that report?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Well, do you remember what that report said about the Omarska

14 Detention Centre? Do you remember what it said about the inmates in the

15 detention centre?

16 A. Can you please refresh my memory? Because I've been here for five

17 or six hours.

18 Q. Yes, yes, I'm sorry, sir. I'll do that. That report said that,

19 in relation to the Omarska Investigation Centre, there are a number of

20 persons detained there, and it went on to say, sir, that during their stay

21 in the investigation centre, two persons died natural deaths, of whom two

22 were Muslims, and it then said, "From the 27th of May 1992 to the 16th of

23 August 1992, a total of 49 persons made off from the centre in an unknown

24 way and in an unknown direction."

25 Do you recall reading that, sir?

Page 5508

1 A. Yes. I remember.

2 Q. You see, if that document was not correct and truthful, then you

3 would have been misled by the documents you relied upon in so far as your

4 forming your opinion and writing your report is concerned; would you agree

5 with that?

6 A. I'm sorry, I can say that you have misunderstood me. I also

7 acknowledged this document. This is another document that I do

8 acknowledge, because if that were not so, I would not have stated

9 everything that I have. Nobody is saying that there have not been dead

10 people and everything else, but it has to be all cleared up and those who

11 are responsible for it should be made to answer for it.

12 Q. Yes. But, sir, what I understood your evidence to be was that the

13 documents were of primary importance to you and had more weight over other

14 sources of information, that you in fact did rely upon the documents.

15 Therefore, if you were given a document that contained untruths, then your

16 source materials would have misled you. Would you agree with that? It's

17 quite simple.

18 A. I would agree with you, but I was unable to identify, to discover

19 such a document, a document that I would identify as untruthful.

20 Q. Just say the document that I just quoted from to you was

21 untruthful in that many, many more inmates of Omarska camp had died and

22 had been beaten to death in the camp.

23 A. I have no proof of that, so therefore I am unable to answer it,

24 but I would like to request that you look at the time when that

25 information was gathered. It is important to know when this report was

Page 5509

1 produced. I don't know when the information about the additional deaths

2 was compiled. But I can say that the Main Staff of the Army of the

3 Republika Srpska had issued an order that all the records be made

4 available to the international commission which was visiting these camps

5 and to help establish the causes of death of each of the individuals that

6 were -- that died.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, we will work until 20 past 4.00, with

8 the cooperation of the interpreters.

9 MS. BALY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Now, let me come back to a point that I began to cross-examine you

11 on earlier, some moments previously. Just to clarify, you gave some

12 evidence that there were no -- there was no hierarchy at all at the

13 Keraterm camp, that all the guards were of the same rank, no

14 superior/subordinate relationship; that's correct, is it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What I'd like to do is to show you a document --

17 MS. BALY: Please, Mr. Usher.

18 Q. -- which is Exhibit 9.4 in these proceedings, or just to be clear,

19 it's Exhibit 66/ or -9, tab 9.4.

20 Can you read that document, please?

21 A. Yes, official note.

22 Q. You don't have to read it out loud.

23 A. Yes, all right.

24 Q. Just look at, please, the signature on the bottom.

25 A. Yes.

Page 5510

1 Q. It is signed by Dusko Sikirica, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And he signed that document as the commander of Keraterm security;

4 that's correct, isn't it?

5 A. Yes. That is the way it's signed, but --

6 Q. Just let me put this to you: That's a piece of evidence, sir, in

7 this trial that does not fit with your conclusion that there were no

8 positions of rank at Keraterm camp; that's right, isn't it, sir?

9 A. I think there has been a misunderstanding between us. I am

10 talking about the guards, about the physical security officers. All those

11 who were there at the time had the same role and were at the same level.

12 The question that arises is whether Sikirica was in Keraterm all the time,

13 whether he was a person from the Prijedor II Police Station. This is

14 something that I am unfamiliar with. I am merely speaking about Dosen,

15 Kolundzija and the others. And through the duty roster, I can say that

16 this is the security service, or, rather, the physical security. And for

17 them, I have been unable to locate any documents which would lead me to

18 say that they were superior to others in the physical security.

19 Q. Well, the physical security is what you have said the accused in

20 this case were responsible for; is that correct?

21 A. I said physical security. I was invited to give my expert opinion

22 on behalf of Dosen, and no such documents exist in his case, or, rather, I

23 have not been given any such documents.

24 Q. Sir, if Dusko Sikirica was also a guard in the camp charged with

25 physical security, then that document suggests that he was the commander

Page 5511

1 of the guards charged with physical security; correct?

2 A. Well, then this document would indeed indicate that.

3 Q. And that would indicate that what you said earlier about there

4 being no command structure at all among the guards at the camp is not

5 correct.

6 A. I would not agree with this, because this is the only piece of

7 paper where he is signed as the security commander and styled as such, and

8 all the other documents that I have analysed and that I have seen and

9 used, there is no such thing. The reason why this is signed and styled in

10 this manner can only be provided by Dusko Sikirica or by somebody else

11 from the Prijedor II Police Station. As far as I'm concerned, the police

12 station commander, the commander of Prijedor II Police Station, was in

13 charge of the security in the Keraterm facility.

14 Q. Sir, are you saying that document cannot be correct?

15 A. I cannot say that this is not correct, but if it is, and I have

16 not used this document in my analysis, then we can say that, as regards

17 the other persons present here, we can apply everything that I have been

18 talking about. That is all based on the duty roster for the 5th and 6th

19 of June 1992.

20 Q. So if you factor that into your analysis, that document that

21 you're being shown now for the first time, it changes your analysis,

22 doesn't it? Doesn't it establish that there was a commander of the guards

23 at Keraterm camp?

24 A. Only in relation to this fact, that there was a security

25 commander, but not relating to the physical security that I have been

Page 5512

1 talking about.

2 Q. Can you please distinguish the difference between physical

3 security and the security that you were talking about? What does physical

4 security mean?

5 A. Physical security is different from technical security. Technical

6 security involves the use of electronic and other devices, and physical

7 security involves a police officer who, by his very physical presence,

8 carries out the tasks which he has been assigned. Physical security is,

9 according to me, distinguishable from technical security.

10 Q. So are you saying that there were technical security duties in

11 Keraterm camp as well as physical security duties?

12 A. No. You have misunderstood me. It merely means that equipment is

13 used in security operations, just as some institutions are protected by

14 certain devices. It was not possible in this case. I do not mean

15 technical presence -- technical security in terms of people being present

16 there. You do not use people to provide security. You use equipment,

17 various devices, to provide security.

18 Q. Okay. So what was the nature of the security that this note by

19 Dusko Sikirica refers to?

20 A. Physical security.

21 Q. Which is what?

22 A. That's the presence of reserve police officers in providing

23 security in Keraterm.

24 Q. By "security," do you mean ensuring that those who were detained

25 at Keraterm camp stayed there and didn't leave? Is that one of the

Page 5513

1 aspects of security?

2 A. Yes. That was one of the aspects.

3 Q. And I think you also -- you said earlier it involved the security

4 of the buildings at Keraterm camp. Is that a fair summary of what you

5 said earlier?

6 A. I think you did not understand me right. Securing a building

7 means also making sure that nobody entered the building and nobody left

8 the building. I think that I have been quite clear on that.

9 Q. So that would involve ensuring that those who were detained there

10 not only didn't escape or leave but also were protected from threats and

11 ill-treatment from unwelcome visitors. It would involve that aspect as

12 well, wouldn't it?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. Let me turn now to some of the conclusions that you have drawn,

15 but firstly, can I ask you about some basic policing principles? The

16 police organisation is one that is highly hierarchical; would you agree

17 with that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you looked today at a document which is D28/2 -- just excuse

20 me for a moment. In any event, document D28/2 was a document -- a

21 document dated the 11th of May 1992, which recorded a meeting of the

22 council of the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka on the 6th of May

23 1992, and some conclusions were adopted during that meeting. Do you

24 remember that document that I'm referring to?

25 A. You will have to remind me a little bit more, if I may ask you to

Page 5514

1 do that.

2 MS. BALY: I wonder if I might obtain the exhibit to assist.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Sir, that document lists some of the conclusions that were made at

5 that meeting; that's right, isn't it, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And one of the conclusions in that document, at point 7, says

8 this: "The senior officer/policeman/worker relationship is to be

9 tightened to the maximum." Do you see that in the document?

10 A. Yes, I see it very well.

11 Q. So this was a document that applied at the relevant time and at

12 this time of conflict in 1992, just prior to the operation of Keraterm

13 camp; that's right, isn't it, sir?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So would you agree with me that the ordinary hierarchical police

16 structure was made even more so, was tightened, during the war in 1992?

17 A. I agree with that.

18 Q. That conclusion is once again contrary to the conclusion that

19 you've drawn concerning the reserve policemen in Keraterm camp where you

20 say no hierarchy operated; would you agree with that?

21 A. I think that I cannot accept your statement. I do not see any

22 difference between the item 7. The commanding officer that is referred to

23 here is not an ordinary police officer. The senior officer, that would be

24 the police station commander. Only they can be termed a senior officer,

25 not those who are below that level. A senior officer, we have to be very

Page 5515

1 specific. It is somebody who has ample powers, who can make certain

2 decisions. But the conclusion reached here is not precise enough. This

3 is just a very generalised statement that this relationship should be

4 tightened up. When you speak about an employee, this does not really

5 involve necessarily police officers. It could be just any labourer or a

6 janitor or a person working in the warehouse. This is just a very

7 generalised statement which indicates that this relationship needs to be

8 tightened precisely because of the wartime situation that you just

9 referred to.

10 Q. But sir, it's referring to police officers. It's not referring to

11 janitors or labourers, is it?

12 A. No, you're not correct, because it says: "Tighten the

13 relationship senior officer/police officer/worker."

14 Q. What it says, sir: "The senior officer/policeman/worker

15 relationship is to be tightened to the maximum." Doesn't that mean that

16 the superior/subordinate relationship between the senior officer and the

17 subordinate policeman is to be tightened?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, we have to take the adjournment now.

20 MS. BALY: Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honour. I couldn't finish.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We understand.

22 Dr. Lakcevic, it's regrettable that you will have to return on

23 Monday at 9.30 a.m. so that we can conclude your testimony.

24 We're adjourned until Monday, 9.30 a.m.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.20 p.m.,

Page 5516

1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of July,

2 2001, at 9.30 a.m.