1 Wednesday, 17 October 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Would the registrar please call the

7 case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution is continuing examination-in-chief.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 WITNESS: IZET IZETBEGOVIC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Mr. di Fazio: [Continued]

16 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, yesterday we had reached the point where you were

17 describing your exchange, or rather, your departure from Batajnica. You

18 told us that you were flown to Pale, and there you met General Mladic, or

19 encountered him. Can you pick up your story from that point and tell us

20 of the events upon your arrival in Pale.

21 A. When the helicopter landed, the men who were with me in the

22 helicopter got off. I was the last to remain, and this person who was in

23 charge of me. I heard a voice outside, saying, "Have you brought

24 Izetbegovic?" And this one said, "Yes, we have, General." I didn't know

25 which General he was referring to, and it was also the first time I had

1 heard of his name.

2 I got off. I was escorted out and taken to the general. He was

3 wearing a general's uniform, in fact. He introduced himself to me. "I am

4 General Mladic, he said. And I said, "Pleased to meet you." What else

5 could I have said? He acted in a very correct, military manner. In fact,

6 he said to me, "At ease," though I had really gone stiff out of fear, not

7 for any other reason.

8 Then the soldiers lined up and they left somewhere and we were

9 left alone. We had a conversation. He asked me a few questions linked to

10 the situation. Of course, I couldn't tell him anything, because everyone

11 thought that I was some important figure in those events. However, I told

12 him that I had no broader powers except for those I had acquired locally

13 as an elected official and that I was performing my duties like any other

14 citizen would do.

15 He also said many other things to me, many of them I had heard for

16 the first time, and only then did I realise what was at stake, and that

17 was also the first time I saw so many soldiers and weapons, and many

18 things became clear to me then.

19 After that, UNPROFOR officers came and took me off, with an

20 escort, and I was taken over by General Boskovic, who was then the

21 commander of the military area of Yugoslavia. There was a colonel, there

22 was a captain. All of them were, of course, officers of the Yugoslav

23 People's Army at the time.

24 When we were entering the special armoured vehicle - in fact,

25 there were three UN armoured white vehicles - General Mladic shouted out,

1 "Let Izetbegovic sit next to the driver." Then General Boskovic turned

2 around and said, "No. He'll sit where I sit." I realised then that

3 relationships between them were not quite what they should be regarding

4 command. So I got into the armoured part of the vehicle and we headed

5 downwards, and I was exchanged at the PTT engineering building in

6 Sarajevo. I was taken over.

7 Q. So you were driven from Pale to Sarajevo?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. With the two generals?

10 A. One general, General Boskovic, and a colonel, also known as Cadjo,

11 and I heard him being mentioned later on. I stayed in Sarajevo until

12 November or December that year. I couldn't get out. I didn't know where

13 my family was. But I later heard on the radio that he was mentioned as a

14 commander in the siege of Sarajevo, whereas I never again heard or saw

15 General Boskovic. He handed me over to the defence minister of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Jerko Doko. I just know that Jerko Doko said to

17 him, "I hadn't [as interpreted] known the man before. What have you done

18 to him? I wouldn't believe it was him." I was wearing an old, torn

19 military uniform which was still bloodstained. I was tied with rope

20 because the clothing we had was taken away from us for dry-cleaning. This

21 was in Belgrade.

22 And then they took me to the presidency, of course. They welcomed

23 me there, that is, the people who were meant to welcome me, and from there

24 I was taken to hospital.

25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how long you remained in Sarajevo

1 before leaving?

2 A. I stayed in Sarajevo until the end of November, the 27th or 28th

3 of November I think was the first time I left the town on an UNPROFOR

4 plane.

5 Q. Thank you. Was Sarajevo being shelled during that time?

6 A. Throughout that time it was shelled. It was terrible. And I kept

7 thinking to myself: Was it worse here or where I had been before? These

8 shells were falling all over. Then there was a shortage of food and

9 everything else. 1993 in particular was terrible. But I left, so ...

10 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you some brief questions. They may seem

11 obvious to you, but I need to know --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry. The inclusion of saying "1993 in

13 particular was terrible" may cause some confusion. What year was he

14 released from Sarajevo?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

16 Q. You heard Her Honour's question. You've told us, you've given

17 evidence that you were initially arrested in April of 1992, kept in

18 custody and so on. What year did the events you've just described occur

19 in, namely, your release from Batajnica, the transfer to Pale and the

20 transfer to Sarajevo?

21 A. It all occurred in 1992. At the end of 1992, I left to Sarajevo.

22 But I just mentioned 1993 because I knew and I suffered because of the

23 situation in my country, and that was quite normal, and that year was the

24 worst perhaps.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, I just want to ask you one or two brief questions

1 that may seem unusual to you, but just answer it yes or no, if you can.

2 Did you have any choice in being exchanged, or rather, I've used that

3 term, in being handed over from Yugoslavian authorities into the hands of

4 Bosnian authorities at Sarajevo?

5 A. I don't understand quite what you mean by "choice."

6 Q. Did you have any influence on those actions?

7 A. No influence whatsoever.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. I just gave myself up to them.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. I was in their hands.

12 Q. Thank you. That's exactly what I --

13 A. Don't mention it.

14 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Izetbegovic, you left Sarajevo on the 27th or

15 29th, you said. Where did you go to in the plane?

16 A. I went to Zagreb, because that was where the flight went. I got

17 off in Zagreb. I was quite free. Then I went around, looking for my

18 family to see whether they were alive and where they were.

19 MR. DI FAZIO:

20 Q. You've told us at the beginning of your evidence of how your

21 family had owned land in Bosanski Samac, how you had been the owner of a

22 house in which generations of your family were raised. At the time that

23 you were transferred -- I've fallen into it again and I apologise. At the

24 time that you were handed over to Sarajevo Bosnian authorities, had you

25 been given anything at all attesting to the fact of your ownership of

1 property back in Bosanski Samac or guaranteeing your rights of property in

2 Bosanski Samac?

3 A. I didn't receive any guarantees and I didn't ask for them either,

4 though.

5 Q. What else did you lose in Bosanski Samac apart from your house?

6 I'm referring to possessions now, personal property.

7 A. At the time we just had the house, and the children had their own

8 household. But the things I was talking about previously, a part of that

9 was taken in 1918, that is Pelagicevo today. We had a large estate. It

10 used to be Zabar. And the second part of that estate in 1945.

11 Q. Thank you. What I'm interested in is the situation in April of

12 1992. At that time, you -- I assume you owned property. You've told us

13 you owned a house. Did you own other things; furniture, car, bank

14 accounts, that sort of thing, located in Bosanski Samac?

15 A. Yes. I had a house fully furnished, I had an apartment of 180

16 square metres in area in the house. In another part was a business owned

17 by my nephew. There was furniture. I had a car, I had a foreign exchange

18 account in the Belgradska Bank. I don't know what happened to that; I

19 never used the money.

20 Q. And you've told us you weren't given any document attesting to

21 your title in the house. Were you given any documentation attesting to

22 property rights in other property apart from the house?

23 A. I didn't get any certificates and I didn't ask for them. I can't

24 accept that I have to make a request for something that is mine, and I

25 still believe this is a temporary situation, so I have made no such

1 requests, and I believe it will be restored one day.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment,

3 please.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MR. DI FAZIO:

6 Q. You've given evidence of having been arrested in Bosanski Samac,

7 transferred to various places, to Batajnica, eventually to Pale, Sarajevo.

8 Did you have any choice, any freedom of choice in your movements, in those

9 movements that I've just described? Just answer yes or no, if you can.

10 A. No. No.

11 Q. In April of 1992, before you were arrested, did you have any plans

12 to leave and live your life away from Bosanski Samac?

13 A. I had no such plans to leave Bosanski Samac. Even when all those

14 events were taking place, I considered myself to be a man of integrity. I

15 hadn't hurt anyone, I hadn't done anything wrong, so it never occurred to

16 me to leave Bosanski Samac.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I've pretty well come to

19 the end of my examination-in-chief. I understand that you wanted me to

20 address you briefly on another matter, and if I understood communications

21 I received from registry, you wanted that to occur before this witness was

22 released. Am I correct --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Regarding what?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: The issue that was briefly touched upon yesterday,

25 flying on from Judge Williams' question.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Only if you feel it's necessary. Like I said,

2 it's your indictment. If there are no proposals for amendment, fine, then

3 there is no need.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't propose to -- no, I have no proposals to

5 change the amendment or expand it.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Then that's fine. There is no need,

7 then.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: If the question troubles the Chamber and you want

9 more submissions on it, I'm willing to do so, otherwise I'm happy to leave

10 the matter as it stands.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's fine. We'll see how the evidence

12 develops.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Well, in that case, can I indicate that

14 I have no further questions of this witness.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 Cross-examination. Who will start and who will follow? I just

17 want to know the order, the sequence from the Defence counsel.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as Defence counsel

19 for Mr. Zaric, I will be the one to begin with the cross-examination.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And after yourself, who will follow, if any?

21 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, on behalf of the Defence counsel for

22 Mr. Miroslav Tadic, we will be the next after my colleague

23 Mr. Pisarevic.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. That's all, only two. Yes, you can

25 start, Mr. Pisarevic.

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, all members of the Defence team will

2 have a cross.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. Good morning, Your Honours. I'm sorry.

6 I just -- we thought that you wanted just the first two, but we are also

7 going to cross-examine the witness.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: You will decide who will begin between the two of

9 you later.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Mr. Pisarevic.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Only two from the rear bench and from the front

13 bench, Mr. Zecevic and me finally.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Okay, that's fine, thank you.

15 Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. You may start.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Izetbegovic. I think there is no need for me to

19 introduce myself as we come from the same country, but I do wish to tell

20 you that I am acting here as Defence counsel for Mr. Simo Zaric, and I

21 wish to tell you in my own name and on behalf of Mr. Zaric that we

22 sincerely regret everything that you have gone through in the course of

23 those most unfortunate events in Bosnia-Herzegovina and we hope that it

24 hasn't had grave consequences upon you.

25 Mr. Izetbegovic, in your statement, you gave a short curriculum

1 vitae and you mentioned your membership in the communist party, and later

2 of the SDA, that is, the Party of Democratic Action of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 You said that you were the founder of the municipal board of the SDA in

4 Samac, so I would now like to ask you for us to look back to that period

5 immediately prior to the formation of the SDA party in Samac. Would it be

6 right to say that the Party of Democratic Action was the first national

7 party formed in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and also in the

8 municipality of Bosanski Samac? Could you please answer yes or no.

9 A. I have to say that I am not here on behalf of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 I am only here on behalf of my survival in Bosanski Samac. I cannot speak

11 on behalf of the state. I have no such authority. I can't say when the

12 party was formed. I know that the branch of the party was the last to be

13 formed in Bosanski Samac.

14 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, if you know, tell us; if you don't know, say you

15 don't know. And if you don't, we won't continue along that line of

16 questioning.

17 A. In that case, I don't know.

18 Q. Thank you. Can we agree that throughout that time, you were

19 within the political leadership of the party, first as the president and

20 then as the vice-president of the municipal board of the SDA for Bosanski

21 Samac municipality?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As a person belonging to the top party leadership, were you

24 consulted, informed, and involved in decision-making and the

25 implementation of those decisions?

1 A. Whatever we did, we did as a team, and there was never a decision

2 taken by an individual, nor was it taken nor implemented on that basis.

3 Q. Can we agree that the main purpose of the SDA was a struggle for

4 the national interests of the Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

5 toppling of the communist authority?

6 A. We cannot.

7 Q. Can we agree, then, that the Party of Democratic Action was a

8 national party of the Muslim people?

9 A. I didn't hear you quite. There was an interruption in the

10 interpretation.

11 Q. Can we agree that the Party of Democratic Action was a national

12 party of the Muslim people?

13 A. All three parties were national parties. There's no escaping

14 that. What is important is what they actually did in the course of their

15 development.

16 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, a moment ago I just asked you to answer yes or

17 no. The Party of Democratic Action, was it also a religious party?

18 A. Surely religion is the private affair of each individual, and

19 there was never particular emphasis in the party, nor were members obliged

20 to be believers. In the civilised world, one is just asked whether you're

21 a believer or not.

22 Q. Will you please answer this question: Are you familiar with the

23 idea of certain elements in the Party of Democratic Action that by

24 Islamisation of the area which they considered to be Muslim, to first

25 create the first Muslim state in the Balkans since the collapse of the

1 Ottoman Empire?

2 A. Never. Not even subconsciously would it occur to me to create a

3 religious Islamic state, nor will that ever be achieved in the areas in

4 which I live. That is why the party will always advocate -- will always

5 struggle against that. That is a purely political party, and if it is to

6 somebody's benefit to proclaim somebody guilty and then to look for

7 sources of that guilt, that's another matter.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: May I remind the witness that just to answer the

9 questions as they are put to you. The Trial Chamber is aware that you

10 have other ideologies and your feelings are quite high during

11 cross-examination, but please remember that counsel is asking the

12 questions on behalf of the Trial Chamber, it is part of the proceedings;

13 so please answer the questions, just answer them, and do not feel

14 agitated.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Are you aware or familiar with senior officials in the SDA of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina such as Omer Behmen, Hasan Cengic, Salim Sabic, and

19 others?

20 A. I know them well.

21 Q. Do you know that it was precisely Omer Behmen, Hasan Cengic, Salim

22 Sabic, and others, insisted and worked towards a religious character for

23 the Party of Democratic Action?

24 A. No, I do not know that.

25 Q. May we agree that in Bosnia-Herzegovina, areas did exist which the

1 Muslims considered to be their own, that there were other areas which the

2 Serbs considered belonged to them, and that areas existed which the Croats

3 believed to be theirs historically?

4 A. If they did exist, then that was from time immemorial, not from

5 yesterday. I did not have knowledge of these areas..

6 Q. In view of the fact that you were the president of the party in

7 Samac, did you take part in the organisation and implementation of the

8 first multiparty elections in 1990, in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. Yes, I did, on the territory of my own municipality.

10 Q. Thank you. That's what I was asking you about. May we also agree

11 that before the elections there existed an agreement between the national

12 parties on the non-attack in the election campaign and the overthrow of

13 the government hitherto?

14 A. Could you repeat that question? I'm not sure I understood it.

15 Q. Yes. May we agree that before the elections an agreement had been

16 reached amongst the national parties, that is to say, the SDA, the SDS,

17 and the HDZ, that they had agreed not to attack in the election campaign

18 in the common goal of overthrowing the government?

19 A. There was a certain amount of party tolerance, but there was never

20 any question of an overthrow of government. That's how I understood it,

21 at least.

22 Q. Was there an agreement or not, no agreement of any such kind?

23 A. There was no agreement of any such kind.

24 Q. Is it true that after the elections and the victory of the

25 national parties at the elections in 1990, that the formation of organs of

1 government and authority was formed on the principle of 5/4/3 in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that meant five Muslims, four Serbs, and three

3 Croats, along the lines of those ratios?

4 A. Where do you mean? At what level?

5 Q. I'm asking you about the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 A. Yes. I am well aware of that, but I did not make any decisions

7 along those lines. It was not up to me to decide.

8 Q. In the municipality of Samac, in view of the electoral results,

9 was power divided exclusively between the Croatian Democratic Community,

10 the Serb Democratic Party, and the Party of Democratic Action?

11 A. It was divided up to the satisfaction of all three parties

12 compared to the election results.

13 Q. May we agree that you, yourself, in that distribution, as a

14 candidate, as the candidate of the SDA party, got the post of the

15 vice-president of the executive board of the municipal board of Bosanski

16 Samac?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can we also agree that, according to this same principle, the

19 representative of the Croatian Democratic Community, the HDZ, Mato Nujic

20 , by ethnicity a Croat, was elected as the mayor, or president of the

21 municipality?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. And following on from that same principle, for the president of

24 the Executive Council of the municipal assembly, as a member of the

25 Serbian Democratic Party, Mirko Jovanovic was elected? May we agree

1 there?

2 A. Yes, he was elected. They nominated him and he was elected.

3 Q. May we also agree that that same principle of distribution of

4 power was applied to the election of the leaders of the municipal

5 administration?

6 A. Well, I wouldn't put it that way. I don't think it was like that

7 in the administration to the end. Some time elapsed. There weren't

8 sufficient cadres, so some things did go through, other things were left

9 unfinished.

10 Q. Can you confirm that the following individuals performed functions

11 which I'm going to enumerate now: Vinko Dragicevic, a Croat, was the

12 chief of police; Zijada Kuckovic, a Muslim lady, was the president of the

13 court, in Bosanski Samac, that is; Mirko Vasiljevic, a Serb, was the

14 public prosecutor; Ivo Kobas, a Croat, commander of the staff of

15 Territorial Defence; Milos Bogdanovic, a Serb, the head of the secretariat

16 for national defence of the municipality of Bosanski Samac; Mato

17 Madzarevic, a Croat, head of town planning. Are those the individuals who

18 led the municipality administration in the Bosanski Samac municipality?

19 A. Yes, they are.

20 Q. May we then agree that in this division of power too, the

21 principle was applied of what we called the national key, which was

22 applied by the Communists in their day while they were in power as well?

23 A. It was partially applied. The rest was left open -- the rest were

24 left as they were, because we looked at the professionalism of the

25 individuals who performed their posts and they were found to be sound.

1 Q. Is it correct that as president of the municipal board of the SDA,

2 you were replaced by Mr. Sulejman Tihic and that you yourself then became

3 the vice-president of the municipal board of the SDA for the Samac

4 municipality?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. May we also agree with the fact that you were still an active and

7 influential member of the SDA party in the Samac municipality?

8 A. Well, I wasn't involved in decision making, but I did stay in the

9 party and work for it, yes.

10 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in the summer of 1991, a meeting

11 was held of the main board of the Democratic Action Party at Igman?

12 A. Which year did you say? Can you give me the date again?

13 Q. Yes. In 1991.

14 A. In the summer of 1991, you say. I attended those meetings on

15 three occasions, so I'm not sure which one you mean.

16 Q. I said the meeting at Igman.

17 A. We did have a meeting, one dealing with the electoral results, the

18 second meeting was with respect to preparations for a population census,

19 but that was in 1991. And the third meeting, the electoral results. We

20 had no other meetings.

21 Q. Do you remember that you once attended a meeting of the main board

22 which was held on the mountain called Igman, near Sarajevo, Mount Igman?

23 A. Well, I have just enumerated the three meetings. I don't know the

24 one you are talking about.

25 Q. Very well. Do you know, furthermore, that at that particular

1 meeting, a decision was reached about arming members of the SDA and Muslim

2 people and their military and party organisation?

3 A. A decision of that kind was never reached, nor was it ever

4 discussed.

5 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that the municipal board of

6 the SDA for Samac elaborated a mobilisation plan for members of the Muslim

7 military units?

8 A. That plan was devised by someone at their own initiative.

9 Q. What I was asking you was whether the municipal board of the SDA

10 party, the Party of Democratic Action of Bosanski Samac compiled a

11 mobilisation plan for the members of Muslim military units.

12 A. It was not a Muslim military unit; it was a unit to protect one's

13 own safety.

14 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Izetbegovic, that that military plan of that

15 kind, a mobilisation plan, was compiled?

16 A. Yes, and that same plan was handed over to the municipal board

17 with all the members and it was placed under the control of the

18 authorities.

19 Q. Would you please answer the questions that I am asking you. Was

20 it compiled or was it not compiled?

21 A. I can't answer that question, put that way.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the Trial

23 Chamber, faced with a situation of this kind, to explain to the witness

24 that we would like an answer whether a mobilisation plan was compiled or

25 not. Could he give a yes or no answer, please.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Okay. I'm waiting for the interpretation.

2 And if you don't know, say you don't know.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, before the witness says

4 anything, just reading the transcript, it seems that he has answered the

5 question. "Are you aware, Mr. Izetbegovic, that a military plan of that

6 kind, a mobilisation, was compiled?" "Yes, and that same plan was handed

7 over to the municipal board and ... placed under the control of the

8 authorities." And then the next question is: Well, answer the question.

9 But he has, as far as I can see.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: I see that. Following the transcript, yes.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: It's a bit hard to know what he -- Mr. Pisarevic

12 can expand on that answer, of course, but he has answered the question.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Agreed.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'm afraid I can't follow

15 the transcript at the same time, so I apologise for insisting on that

16 point. But I was prompted because Mr. Izetbegovic said, "I can't state an

17 opinion on that. I can't answer that question." That was the last thing

18 he said before I went ahead with my question again. But anyway, very

19 well.

20 Q. Do you agree that the municipal board of the SDA of Samac,

21 Bosanski Samac, formed its Crisis Staff?

22 A. We did have a Crisis Staff, like all the other parties.

23 Q. May we agree that at the head of that Crisis Staff was Mr.

24 Sulejman Tihic, the president of the municipal board of the SDA party of

25 Bosanski Samac?

1 A. According to the hierarchy, that was quite normal, him and Alija

2 Fitozovic.

3 Q. May we agree that you too were a member of that Crisis Staff?

4 A. Yes, I was.

5 Q. You formed a party and military formation made up of members of

6 the SDA and Muslims from Bosanski Samac, did you not? Is that correct?

7 A. It never said that it was a party military formation anywhere.

8 Q. Did you form an armed military formation?

9 A. That's not what it says either.

10 Q. Was the commander of that particular formation Alija Fitozovic, a

11 reserve Major of the Yugoslav People's Army from Bosanski Samac?

12 A. It wasn't a command; it was a unit which had a structure of power

13 and authority and data and names. Nothing was confidential, actually.

14 There was nothing secret about it.

15 Q. That unit of yours, Mr. Izetbegovic, did it have a command?

16 A. Well, when the people had arms, it was probably normal to

17 introduce some sort of order so that that should not be abused, but what

18 they were doing was providing security for various premises, because there

19 was no police force or militia, as we used to call it in town.

20 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, would you refrain from elaborating and answer my

21 questions. It will facilitate the work of one and all in these

22 proceedings if you would be so kind as to do so. Were you yourself a

23 member of that command which numbered five members?

24 A. A member of the Crisis Staff.

25 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, we have clarified the question of the Crisis

1 Staff. What I'm asking you now is to tell me whether you were a member of

2 the command of the armed unit which was formed and organised by the

3 municipal board of the SDA of Bosanski Samac.

4 A. I am not aware of having been in that post. It was a list which

5 was entitled "Crisis Staff." I don't know anything further than that.

6 Q. Do you happen to know the fact that a plan of attack existed, a

7 plan of attack on Bosanski Samac, in collaboration with the HDZ?

8 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

9 Q. May we agree that on the municipality of Bosanski Samac, a

10 Croatian Defence Council had been formed. The commander was reserve

11 Captain Marko Bozanovic, by ethnicity a Croat?

12 A. No, I am not aware of that.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Microphone.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, may I just interrupt the

17 cross-examination there. The question was asked by Mr. Pisarevic: "Do

18 you happen to know the fact that a plan of attack existed, a plan of

19 attack on Bosanski Samac, in collaboration with the HDZ?" Answer: "No,

20 I'm not aware of that." Now, if Mr. Pisarevic is putting to the witness

21 that there was in fact such a plan, then I submit that all of the

22 circumstances of that alleged plan of attack should be put to the witness

23 so that he can fully answer. And secondly, it should also be put so that

24 the Tribunal -- the Chamber, rather, understands what is being put to the

25 witness. Plan of attack with whom? Now, I think that what Mr. Pisarevic

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1 is saying is that there was a plan of attack between the SDA and the HDZ.

2 If so, then that should be clearly put, because at the moment it's not

3 clear who was collaborating with the HDZ, who was being supposed or

4 alleged to have collaborated with the HDZ, and I think that should be

5 clarified.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure counsel has understood the point the

7 Prosecution is making and will take that into account when cross-examining

8 the witness.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.

10 Thank you. However, there is an error in the transcript. I did not say

11 with the HDZ. I said with the Croatian Defence Council.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe you can repeat the question.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. The question was as follows: May we agree that a plan of attack

15 existed on Bosanski Samac in collaboration with the HVO or Croatian

16 Defence Council of the Bosanski Samac municipality?

17 A. Could you repeat that question once again?

18 Q. Can we agree that a plan of attack existed on Bosanski Samac which

19 was made up, which was devised by the command of the armed unit of the SDA

20 with the Croatian Defence Council of Bosanski Samac municipality?

21 A. I don't know about a plan of that kind. Who would they attack?

22 Themselves?

23 Q. If you do not know, did you perhaps happen to hear about the

24 existence of such a plan?

25 A. No, I did not.

1 Q. Let me repeat the question because you didn't give me an answer.

2 Do you agree that on the Bosanski Samac municipality, the HVO, Croatian

3 Defence Council, had been formed and that the commander was reserve

4 Captain Marko Bozanovic, by ethnicity a Croat?

5 A. I have absolutely no idea what they did in their section.

6 Q. Thank you. May we agree that the most responsible for performing

7 all these preparations in the organisation of the municipal board of the

8 Democratic Action Party was Mr. Sulejman Tihic, as party president?

9 A. We made decisions collectively. One person, one member, cannot be

10 held responsible.

11 Q. We're not talking about responsibility, but we're talking about

12 who the most responsible person was.

13 A. Well, that's what I answered a moment ago; by hierarchy, it was

14 the president.

15 Q. May we agree that you, Mr. Izetbegovic, and Alija Fitozovic,

16 worked most to illegally arm the Party of Democratic Action and Muslims in

17 Bosanski Samac?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, Mr. Tihic, in his recollections on page 12,

20 states that you and Alija Fitozovic were most active in illegally arming

21 the SDA and Muslims in Bosanski Samac. Is that assertion correct or not?

22 A. No, it is not.

23 Q. May we agree that a significant role in the illegal arming of the

24 Democratic Action Party and the Muslim people were held by Atif Rakic [as

25 interpreted], Salkic Ibrahim, Dedo Halilovic, Aziz Hecimovic, Osman Mesic,

1 Pasaga Tihic , Esad Hadzimujagic and Jasenica Fuad?

2 A. No, we can't agree with that. Each person brought their own

3 weapons individually. Nothing was done in an organised fashion.

4 Q. Can you tell me, please -- or rather, answer my question: Where

5 is Slavonski Brod located, or rather, is Slavonski Brod to be found in the

6 Republic of Croatia?

7 A. Of course.

8 Q. And can you confirm the fact that you and Alija Fitozovic, on the

9 10th of January, 1992, from Mr. Meter and Mr. Piplovic, who were officers

10 of the Croatian army in Slavonski Brod, which is located in the Republic

11 of Croatia, received and brought into Bosanski Samac 100 kilogrammes of

12 military explosives?

13 A. I only heard about that, but I didn't bring it or go to fetch it,

14 and this is the first time that I'm hearing about Mr. Meter being an

15 officer, and Mr. Piplovic as well. The first man was the mayor, and the

16 other one was a politician. I know them as political figures both.

17 Q. However, I must tell you that Mr. Tihic, in his recollections on

18 page 12, line 25, says the following: "Nevertheless, concrete business

19 was done by Izet and Alija mostly."

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry, Counsel, to interrupt you. Which -- what

21 are you referring to? Is it the evidence in court of Mr. Tihic?

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] No. These are Mr. Tihic's

23 recollections, which I'm sure at a certain stage of the proceedings will

24 be evidence before this Tribunal.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Was it the memoirs?

1 MR. DI FAZIO: It's what I tried to introduce, and unless I'm

2 wrong, there was an objection from Mr. Pisarevic, so ...

3 JUDGE MUMBA: And they were not accepted in evidence.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: No. You ruled against my being permitted to

5 introduce them in evidence.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So they are not part of the evidence, so you

7 can't cross-examine the witness on them.

8 [Defence counsel confer]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time that I've

10 heard about those memoirs. It's something that I have not -- did not know

11 about until hearing it now.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: But how come you are referring to them? Because you

13 see, when a document has not been admitted into evidence, you cannot

14 introduce its contents by way of cross-examination, because they are not

15 part of the evidence on record.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour, and I

17 won't refer to the document again.

18 Q. However, are you aware of the fact that - or perhaps you heard

19 about it - that 100 kilogrammes of explosives were brought in from

20 Slavonski Brod? Did you hear about that?

21 A. I only heard about it, but I can't discuss it further than that,

22 and I am not claiming that it's true.

23 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, did you ever go to Slavonski Brod?

24 A. Yes, I did officially, as vice-president of the party. No, not --

25 of the Executive Council of the municipality, because of the blockade of

1 the bridge and the question of traffic. There were five-kilometre-long

2 columns of traffic and Bosanski Samac couldn't stand it any longer because

3 of the blockade, and that was the only reason why I went there, because of

4 the bridge.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you -- yes. Before the next question, can you

6 just clarify again in what status you went to this place, because the

7 answer is not clear.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went there in the capacity of

9 vice-president of the Executive Council of the municipal assembly.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Could you tell us: Who did you hear from about this explosive?

13 A. I can't tell you that. You know best how gossip gets around in

14 our towns, so I can't name anyone.

15 Q. I think that nevertheless, in this Trial Chamber, you should put

16 aside gossip, and I think that this Trial Chamber has the right and duty

17 to hear more precisely, so will you please give me an answer, or I will

18 have to appeal to Their Honours for an answer from you.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, that's unfair, isn't it, if Your Honours

20 please. He says -- the question, a perfectly proper question from Mr.

21 Pisarevic: "From whom did you hear about this explosive?" The

22 witness says, "I can't tell you." And then Mr. Pisarevic says, "Well, I

23 have to appeal to the Trial Chamber for an answer." Now, if he can't

24 tell us, he can't tell us, and that's the end of the matter.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: No. If he knows the person who told him, he should,

1 because he hasn't given reasons why he can't tell us the person who told

2 him.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I see. Perhaps I've -- maybe I've misunderstood.

4 If the witness is saying, "I can't tell you that" because he doesn't know,

5 then surely that's the end of the matter.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Then he must say so.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: If he's saying, "I can't tell you that" because he

8 needs to protect an identity or something else, some other reason, that's

9 another matter altogether. I'm not trying to stop him from that. Just on

10 that, if there are reasons for -- if the reason is because he wants to

11 protect someone, I'd ask that the Chamber give consideration to perhaps

12 closing the Court during that evidence.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because he has to tell us his reasons first.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: And then we can go into private session and then we

16 can have the name or he can write the name on a piece of paper - we've

17 done that before - and then it would be under seal.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Madam President. That was exactly my idea, to

21 go into private session.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, then. Please sit down.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Madam President, but in addition, it's a

24 matter of procedure. It's a matter of principle of law. In this

25 particular case, Mr. Izetbegovic said that he knows who is in question,

1 the person in question, but due to the small area, local atmosphere and

2 gossips, he is not going to tell us here. But please advise the witness

3 here that he is here before the Court of law and you are conducting the

4 proceedings and then you have all kind of measures to go into private

5 session or to, you know ...

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

7 MR. PANTELIC: But he knows, the fact is that he knows who the

8 person is, so he answered that question. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: We explained that, I think, briefly. We didn't want

10 it to go on and on and waste time. So the witness has understood what the

11 Chamber has said in view of what the Prosecution raised. So if the

12 witness knows the name and for reasons of security or whatever, he better

13 tell us why he can't tell us the name of the person who informed him.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard when they asked me whether

15 it was true, and I said I don't know. And the person who asked me didn't

16 know either whether it was true. So it's a small place. There are all

17 kinds of rumours going around. And that is my answer.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Now you are saying the person who told you also

19 did not know whether it was true. That's not the point. We just want the

20 name of the person who told you, rumour or fact. You've already explained

21 that he said he didn't know whether it was true. So we just want the

22 name, unless you have reasons to protect his name, in which case we shall

23 resort to the measures that we have already spelled out.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I have nothing more to say.

25 I simply don't know. And I beg to be spared. After all, I am a witness

1 here, I'm not an accused. Could I be spared questions which are not the

2 subject of these proceedings? There are many other witnesses who will

3 know more, and that particular person, I assume, will probably come here

4 and be able to tell you more. I'm telling you what I know and as much as

5 I know. If that is satisfactory for the Defence and for Your Honours and

6 for the Prosecution, I can't say more than that.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. --

8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: I just wanted to get the interpretation concluded.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes, you wanted to say what?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Unless I'm wrong, I think there's just -- what's

13 happening here is just a misunderstanding, unless I'm wrong. He has said,

14 "I simply don't know." Now, I assumed that he's saying there, "I simply

15 don't know the name."

16 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. di Fazio. We've been through that. Okay.

17 Let me ask him:

18 Do you know the name of the person who told you about explosives?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm sorry. It is my understanding

21 that this is really not acceptable. My learned colleague from the

22 Prosecutor side is coaching the witness in a certain sense. That is one

23 thing.

24 The other thing is the witness clearly stated that this person who

25 has told him will be a witness over here and you can ask him. That's in

1 the transcript. So he knows who is the person, he knows that he's going

2 probably to be a witness over here. He just doesn't want to give us his

3 name. That's the point. And I mean -- and the Honourable Trial Chamber

4 asked him to reveal the name of that particular person, and if the witness

5 doesn't want to do that in the public session, let's go into the private

6 session and then he can tell us. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] All the questions I have put to

11 the witness were because he hasn't given any serious reason why he should

12 not tell the Trial Chamber that name.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let me deal with it this way. Let's not go on

14 and on.

15 Mr. Izetbegovic -- I'm sorry, I can't pronounce the name at all.

16 Witness, do you have any misgivings about giving the Trial Chamber the

17 name of this person? If you do, we can go into private session, in which

18 case that name will not be revealed to members of the public but it will

19 be revealed to the people in court, that's the Trial Chamber, the counsel,

20 and the accused persons.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I have hidden or

22 concealed anything so far. Whatever I know, I have said. I realise I

23 have to tell the truth. I have mentioned many names. I wasn't afraid. I

24 am not afraid about this one. Simply, if something is being said in town,

25 I can't tell you who told me. It is not reliable, because I myself didn't

1 know.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You know that this type of conduct will go to

3 the credibility of your evidence. It will affect how the Trial Chamber,

4 you know, assesses the quality of your evidence, because you have said

5 maybe this person will be called as a witness or did you imply that you

6 have no idea? Because the impressions we get is that you do know this

7 person. I'll ask you again: Do you know that person or not? It's up to

8 you whichever answer you give. I've told you the consequences.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that probably that person

10 would come here. I was thinking of Alija Fitozovic, who is mentioned in

11 that connection. If he did that, and I'm saying if, he will probably give

12 all the answers. I cannot provide answers, because I was not a

13 participant of everything. And that was the person I had in mind. If you

14 have to squeeze this out of me, if that is so important to the Defence or

15 to the Court, I don't understand why that should be so important. I think

16 there are many more important things.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: No. It is for the Trial Chamber to decide what is

18 important, and that's why we stop some questions sometimes, if you have

19 observed that.

20 Counsel, please proceed.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Let us clear up some things, then.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel speak into the microphone, please.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, please speak into the microphone because

25 the interpreters can't get what you're saying.

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. The question that was put to you was: From whom did you hear that

3 Alija Fitozovic had obtained the explosives, or did Alija Fitozovic tell

4 you about it, the person you just mentioned?

5 A. I appeal to you once again to spare me this kind of provocation.

6 I have told you everything I knew about the explosives and the part I

7 played in that. I know nothing more than that.

8 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, I have no intention to aggravate the situation in

9 any way, but we have to clear things up. My question was: Who told you

10 about the explosives?

11 A. I've given you my answer. I have nothing more to say about

12 explosives.

13 Q. You said that the story was that it was Alija Fitozovic. That's

14 not the same.

15 A. Rumour is rumour. I cannot tell you. Mr. Pisarevic, Mr.

16 Attorney, I don't know the name of an individual. If that means anything

17 to you, take it that I said it, but I don't know and I don't have a name.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can we proceed? Can you go to other

19 questions? We've heard enough of this, and I think the answer is in the

20 transcript.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, do you know a person by the name of Senahid

23 Memic, from Hrasnica in Sarajevo?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Can you confirm the fact that Mr. Memic asked you and Mr. Tihic to

1 assist him when his truck, packed full with illegal weapons that he was

2 driving from Croatia to Bosnia-Herzegovina, sought assistance?

3 A. No one asked for my assistance then, because I was in Sarajevo at

4 the time, attending a session.

5 Q. Do you know the fact that he asked Mr. Tihic for that assistance?

6 A. No, I don't know that.

7 Q. Do you know that near the mosque in Bosanski Samac, the weapons

8 were reloaded into a truck of the veterinary station of Bosanski Samac,

9 which the driver of which was Smail Smailovic from Bosanski Samac?

10 A. I don't know that either.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, just one question. What was the

12 date when all of this was happening, the transfer of the weapons and so

13 on? Because I find it may be -- it would be of assistance to the Tribunal

14 and also to the witness when being asked these types of questions and

15 where he was at the time, to know exactly what we're talking about in

16 terms of the date. Thank you.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I understand, Your

18 Honour, your advice.

19 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, the session, the meeting you mentioned that you

20 attended on that day, when did it take place, if you can tell us? Tell us

21 just the month and year, you don't have to give us the day.

22 A. I don't remember the date, but I know that that was the day that

23 the bridge was blown up. I was in Sarajevo when I heard about it being

24 blown up.

25 Q. Can we agree, then, that this was the 23rd of March, 1992?

1 A. If that is when that happened, then that is the date. I'm not

2 very good with dates.

3 Q. Yes, yes, the 23rd. Could you please explain your answer when you

4 said -- when I asked you about the breakdown of the truck, you said, "I

5 was that day in Sarajevo attending a meeting." Had you heard about this

6 incident?

7 A. Let's try and come to some agreement. Whatever I say in my

8 answer, I had heard about. I heard about this truck and everything after

9 I left the camp. I learnt about many things which I hadn't known before.

10 So I didn't know that then. I was attending a meeting in Sarajevo

11 regarding the budget of the municipality. I didn't know what was

12 happening in Samac.

13 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, please, whatever you heard afterwards or what you

14 don't know, just please tell us that you don't know, so I won't ask you

15 anything further about that.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: In fairness to the witness, you, Counsel, should be

17 stating the dates. At what stage did you know, when did you hear about

18 this? If you want the witness to be answering the questions the way

19 you've just explained. Because it's not fair when you're not particular

20 with dates yourself.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in view of the fact

22 that these were illegal matters, we are not in possession of data

23 indicating the exact date, time, hour, so I cannot ask Mr. Izetbegovic

24 whether this happened on such-and-such a day at such-and-such a time,

25 because all this was being done illegally. I have some information about

1 this, but I cannot give the exact hour or day or month. I can give the

2 month or year, but I really -- it is very difficult for us to gain

3 possession of such data.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Even the participants in those

6 events.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: It's a long time, I appreciate that, and as you say,

8 these were illegal activities at that time in that locality. It's not the

9 exact date. At least the month, the year, or was it the first half of

10 this year or the second half or the first quarter, something like that at

11 least, so that the witness is properly guided.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

13 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, did you have any knowledge, as a member of the

14 Crisis Staff and as a member of the command, that on that occasion when

15 the weapons were being reloaded, Mr. Memic, from the SDA of Bosanski

16 Samac, gave 20 automatic rifles and 2.000 rounds in March 1992?

17 A. As a member of the Crisis Staff, you can address me, but not as a

18 member of the command. My answer is: I don't know.

19 Q. Do you know of the fact that Senahid Memic and Bakir Alispahic, in

20 a white Golf, licence place SA 335-820 arrived in this car and handed over

21 to the president of the SDA of Bosanski Samac in January 1992, 30

22 automatic rifles M-56?

23 A. To which president? There were two.

24 Q. The president of the municipal board of the SDA of Samac. Who was

25 president at the time?

1 A. Mr. Tihic, I think. When your question is complete, I'll give you

2 an answer. When you have a complete question, I'll give you an answer.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: I need clarification here. We've got the answer.

4 Mr. Tihic was the president at this time. Is the answer also yes to the

5 fact that this was -- whatever was being handed over, the arms were being

6 handed over to the president? Can we have clarification from the witness,

7 please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know the details, but I

9 heard about it from Alija Fitozovic. So there's no need to go any further

10 than that. At the time I was not president, Mr. Attorney. I think you've

11 got your answer after all.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, I didn't say that you were president. I don't

14 know what the interpretation is that you are getting. I never said that

15 you were the president, at the time, of the SDA.

16 A. I'm getting a good interpretation, but I asked you to tell me who

17 was the president.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel and Witness, you are not in conversation.

19 We are in a trial. Please stick to the rules of procedure.

20 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pisarevic, when you do ask questions, I know

21 that you have instructions and you have a brief. We don't have your

22 instructions and we don't have your brief, so please lay the foundation of

23 your questions first so that we can follow them. Now, Memic, one would

24 expect you to ask him: Do you know a person by the name of so-and-so, and

25 then you move from there, and please ask one question at a time. I notice

1 that in your questions you have a number of them, and sometimes again we

2 don't know to which question he is giving an answer.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you for your guidance,

4 Your Honour. I shall do my best to break down my questions, but I thought

5 this would be more expeditious.

6 Q. Are you aware of the fact, as a member of the Crisis Staff, that

7 on the 15th of April, 1992, Jasenica Fuad and Salkic Ibrahim brought by

8 car 50 automatic rifles, two mortars, several hand-held rocket launchers

9 and some ammunition?

10 A. I do know. I don't know the composition, but all that was

11 immediately placed at the disposal of the Territorial Defence, accompanied

12 by all the necessary documents. Nothing was done illegally.

13 Q. Can you confirm the fact that these weapons were brought in from

14 Slavonski Brod, which is situated in the Republic of Croatia, and that it

15 was obtained from the Croatian army?

16 A. I can't confirm that fact, because I don't know.

17 Q. You don't know one of them or you don't know any of those facts?

18 A. Which three?

19 Q. That it was brought from Slavonski Brod. Can you confirm that

20 fact?

21 A. I don't know.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you didn't take the direction from Judge

23 Singh of loading your own questions and you're caught up by your own

24 problem.

25 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Izetbegovic, can I ask you one question. You

1 said that you were a member of the Crisis Staff. I take it that it's the

2 Crisis Staff of the SDA. What was the crisis in response to which the

3 Crisis Staff was formed?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff existed. We

5 self-organised ourselves because we realised we had been left alone.

6 Everyone had his own group. We just organised ourselves to protect our

7 own property, and this staff was also under the control of the legal

8 authorities and SUP. They guarded and controlled our buildings and our

9 facilities, because no one was there to protect us and there were long

10 lines of columns, foreigners, outsiders, and we wanted to protect

11 ourselves from unknown persons because businesses were being blown up and

12 all kinds of other things, and we were protecting our own houses and our

13 own businesses, and this staff had no other intention and no other

14 programme, and this was made public daily. The daily people on duty were

15 listed, so that all this was done in coordination.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Can we take our break and we'll resume

17 our proceedings at 11.30.

18 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pisarevic is to continue. Yes,

21 Prosecution.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps before Mr. Pisarevic starts, there's just a

23 brief evidential matter that I want to raise. It does affect Mr.

24 Pisarevic's cross-examination, but indeed it's a general matter that I

25 raise.

1 In the cross-examinations thus far, and in this particular

2 cross-examination, I have noticed very little in the way of putting of

3 one's case to the witnesses, very little. And indeed under Rule 90(G) --

4 sorry, (H), 90(H)(2), that topic is addressed. It says:

5 "In the cross-examination of a witness who is able to give

6 evidence relevant to the case for the cross-examining party, counsel shall

7 put to that witness the nature of the case of the party for whom that

8 counsel appears which is in contradiction of the evidence given by the

9 witness," similar to what I'm familiar with in my jurisdiction known as

10 the rule in Brown and Dunne and it's a rule of fairness, so that the

11 witness is able to comment on what Defence counsel may later say to the

12 Chamber.

13 Now, as I say, it's not a matter of concern for the Prosecution

14 and it's not a matter for us to direct Defence counsel on how they conduct

15 their cross-examinations, but as far as Defence counsel are concerned, I

16 think they should be aware that if they don't do that, then that will

17 certainly be a matter of comment from the Prosecution at the end of the

18 case.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you very much for pointing it out, and

20 the Trial Chamber has been observing this and in fact has discussed this

21 very matter. The three of us did discuss this as a matter to be observed,

22 and I'm sure that the Defence counsels have read these Rules and do know

23 that the Rules are in force and will apply to these proceedings.

24 We come from different legal systems, as you know, and the art of

25 cross-examination may not be familiar to all the people involved in these

1 proceedings before the Tribunal, so usually there is need for guidance,

2 but the Trial Chamber does expect that the Defence counsel, as well as the

3 Prosecution counsel, do read these Rules and they do understand them and

4 they know that they apply. So one can only hope that the Rules will be

5 complied with and the cross-examination will try to elicit the Defence

6 case, if any, and leave it at that. Thank you.

7 Mr. Pisarevic, please continue your cross-examination.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we just have a

9 few moments to confer, please?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Go ahead.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Izetbegovic, I just want to have one more

13 follow-up question from the Crisis Staff that the SDA have. Was this

14 Crisis Staff formed in response to some other party having a Crisis Staff?

15 Was there another set of Crisis Staff belonging to other parties at about

16 that time, in 1991, December or so?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All parties had Crisis Staffs, and

18 that's what we did, we sat down to set up a Crisis Staff. But its sole

19 purpose was self-protection and self-organisation for the preservation and

20 protection of property, nothing else.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Perhaps I could just follow up on my colleague

22 Judge Singh's question. Which Crisis Staff was formed first? Was it that

23 of your party or was it the other parties? So was yours in response, was

24 yours set up first, set up second, set up third?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was set up third.

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, please proceed and please stand nearer the

3 microphone.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I

5 will.

6 I have understood the point made by the Prosecution and the

7 guidance given by the Trial Chamber. I nonetheless consider that,

8 according to Rule 90(H)(1), (A)(1) or (H)(1), during the

9 examination-in-chief, when matters affecting the credibility of the

10 witness are in question, that one may introduce evidence which have been

11 disclosed previously, but if there are certain -- if there is a lack of

12 clarity, I shall try my best to do away with that.

13 First and foremost, I should like now to introduce a piece of

14 evidence. It is a document which the municipal Crisis Staff, with its

15 members, has, and it was disclosed to the Prosecution and copies were

16 prepared for all participants in the trial. I should like to request that

17 that document be shown to the witness and to be given a number.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. I take it that it will be shown to the

19 witness in sequence, as they appear in the file, or is it the intention of

20 counsel to have one collective number and then we can have /1, /2,

21 whatever? How is the counsel going to use the documents?

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Well, there could be one

23 collective number and then perhaps /1, /2, /3, et cetera.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: And all of them, I can see, do have Serbo-Croat and

25 English translation. Okay. Yes.

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13 English transcripts.

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1 The Prosecution have received these documents?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe we have, but I'm not sure that I know

3 which particular documents are being spoken about at this stage.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Probably the whole file.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got a file here that my --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: How many documents do you have in there?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Five.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, five. So they will be introduced in that

9 order. And you've looked at them, I suppose, because I'm trying to ask

10 what is your position.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: They've been disclosed and they're properly

12 translated, so I've got no objection at this stage to their going in.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Number for the exhibits will be D2/4, continuing

15 to D3/4, D4/4, and D5/4, and D6/4.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: And the Serbo-Croat? Because we've been using "ter"

17 at the end of the numbering for the Serbo-Croat.

18 THE REGISTRAR: For the Serbo-Croat, it will be D2/4 ter, D3/4

19 ter, D4/4 ter, D5/4 ter, and D6/4 ter.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the only thing, as I read

22 the transcript, I have no problem with the documents going in, but which

23 one is which?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. I did say in the sequence as presented.

25 So maybe I'll ask the registry assistant -- or maybe I'll ask the Defence

1 counsel how he understands the numbering and then he will take us through

2 which is D2/4. You could deal with that. Yes, let the registry assistant

3 deal with that, I think.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] The first document is D2, the

5 municipal Crisis Staff, number 2, the municipal Crisis Staff. The next

6 document is annex number 3, the municipal Crisis Staff.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Excuse me. Can we have the registry assistant read

8 the numbers for us all, so that we follow the numbers as recorded by the

9 registry assistant. I'm sorry. It does not mean that is the sequence of

10 importance, no, and you can actually start with any one of them, but we

11 just want to be clear as to which document is which number for the time

12 being, please.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Document D2/4 will be the municipality Crisis

14 Staff document annex number 2. Document D2/4 [sic] municipality military

15 document annex number 3. Document D4/4 will be a receipt. Document

16 D5/4 is a certificate received by Mr. Izetbegovic. Document D6/4 is a

17 receipt number 1342, dated, I think, the 2nd of March, 1992.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: And then the Serbo-Croat parts follow the same

19 numbering with a "ter" at the end.

20 THE REGISTRAR: With a "ter." That's correct, Your Honour.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. There is just one mistake

22 in the transcript and I believe the registrar made it, actually. It says

23 here two documents D2/4. This is 42nd page, 9 and 10, rows 9 and 10. It

24 says document D2/4 will be the municipality Crisis Staff document, annex

25 number two. D2/4, municipality military document. This should be D3, if

1 I correctly understood.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one should be D3?

3 MR. ZECEVIC: The document, the second document which is named

4 "municipality military headquarters."

5 JUDGE MUMBA: According to your understanding should be?

6 MR. ZECEVIC: D3/4, and in the transcript it says D2/4 twice. I'm

7 sorry.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let her repeat, correct it again.

9 THE REGISTRAR: If I may add, Your Honour. This is the

10 municipality document, the military headquarters, with annex number 3 on

11 the right upper corner. That's D3/4 for the English, and D3/4 ter for the

12 B/C/S.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

14 Yes. Counsel can go ahead.

15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher's

16 assistance to show the witness document D2/4, municipality Crisis Staff,

17 annex number 2, copy number 2.

18 Q. I should now like to ask the witness to read the document, to have

19 a look at it.

20 Have you acquainted yourself with the contents of the document,

21 Mr. Izetbegovic?

22 A. Yes, I have now.

23 Q. Do you know this document? Have you seen it before?

24 A. I never saw it before coming to The Hague. I learnt of it when I

25 came to The Hague.

1 Q. Would you agree with me that this is the municipality Crisis Staff

2 of the SDA?

3 A. It is the Crisis Staff. I don't know why municipal, municipality.

4 Q. Do you agree with me that you - that is to say, not you personally

5 but the SDA party - gave it the name of the municipality Crisis Staff,

6 that's how you named it?

7 A. Well, if it says so, then that is what it was. And if it has a

8 signature, but I can't see any signature. I'd like to be able to see it.

9 Q. I should now like to ask you to read the name of the president of

10 the municipality Crisis Staff. It says here Sulejman Tihic, but I don't

11 see anybody's signatures here. Is your name on the list at all, and if

12 so, where?

13 A. I can see that it is a name under "members."

14 Q. Can you tell me what the numbers on the document signify, 61459,

15 61204, and so on?

16 A. I can see that 61204 is my home telephone number.

17 Q. I should like the witness to be shown document D3/4 next, please.

18 It is annex number 3 --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry, Counsel, to interrupt you, but before we

20 leave this document, when the witness says, "I can see the number is my

21 home telephone number," is it the number today or was it the number then?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Now, the next heading is "municipality military headquarters," and

1 it says that the president is Fitozovic, Alija. Are you acquainted with

2 this document?

3 A. No, I'm not.

4 Q. Do you agree that your name is on the document?

5 A. I can see that it is on the document, but nobody asked me about

6 anything like that.

7 Q. Do you know the individuals on the document? Do you know

8 Fitozovic, Alija?

9 A. Yes, I know all the people, but this is the first time that I'm

10 seeing my name on a document of this kind. Nobody asked me or consulted

11 me whether I wanted to be amongst them or not.

12 Q. But you were the vice-president of the party nonetheless. Was

13 that customary in the SDA for such high-ranking functionaries to be put on

14 lists without their knowledge and agreement?

15 A. No, it wasn't customary for anybody to be put on a list without

16 their acquiescence; not only presidents, but anybody.

17 Q. These telephone numbers, are they numbers dating back to 1992?

18 A. Mine is. I don't know about the others.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher show the witness

20 the next document, which is D4/4. It is a receipt dated the 10th of

21 January, 1992.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. I'd like to ask

23 Mr. Izetbegovic a question, which is: Could you tell us what is the

24 difference in principle between the municipality Crisis Staff, on the one

25 hand, and the municipality military headquarters, on the other hand.

1 Apart from the membership, but the difference in principle between the two

2 groups. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I can say is that the Crisis

4 Staff existed within the party, but it was never titled the "municipality

5 Crisis Staff." I don't know why that word "municipality" is there.

6 Probably they might have been thinking about the municipality but it

7 never had a municipality function on behalf -- to do anything on behalf of

8 the whole municipality. It was only a Crisis Staff within the party. And

9 this is the first time I'm seeing these other documents. I have never had

10 access to them. I don't know about them.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So you don't know what the municipality military

12 headquarters was or did?

13 THE WITNESS: It was never called "military" either. I don't know

14 who named it that way and with what right. It was just called the "Crisis

15 Staff of the party." Somebody compiled this. How they compiled it, I

16 don't know, but it was without my agreement. Actually, he didn't --

17 wasn't duty-bound to inform me of everything, because I wasn't a leading

18 person of the party.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. In connection with those two documents, I just have one more

22 question. All the individuals on these lists, on these documents, are

23 they members of the SDA?

24 A. I assume they are. I didn't have that registry. The secretariat

25 had all the members listed.

1 Q. Are the members of Muslim ethnicity?

2 A. Yes, they are. I assume they are. It is their right to state

3 their own ethnicity.

4 Q. Let us look at the next document, which is D4/4. It is a receipt,

5 as I said, dated January 10th, 1992, confirming that Dzananovic Nerfid

6 received 20 kilogrammes of explosives of the Vitezit type 20 and 12 M of

7 slow-burning stick. Do you know Nerfid Dzananovic?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 Q. In the right-hand corner, you will see it says Fitozovic Alija.

10 Actually, it says Fitozovic, A. And underneath that, it says "Atif Rakic"

11 [as interpreted].

12 A. Yes, I can see that.

13 Q. Are they members of the SDA party?

14 A. Yes, they are, but these aren't their signatures. The person who

15 wrote this receipt, that is his signature.

16 Q. Can you tell us - if you can, do so - whose signature is to be

17 found under where it says "delivered by"?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Now I'd like to ask you to take a look at the next document, D5/4.

20 This is a certificate, certifying the reception of 04, M160 and so on

21 and so forth. Have you ever seen this certificate?

22 A. In my testimony previously, I said that we had some weapons which

23 we distributed with regular receipts and full control as to who had them

24 and why they had them, and that is no secret, that we procured weapons. I

25 also said that. So probably - I can't remember any more. I did have a

1 pistol from the party - whether that is that, I don't know - which the

2 party procured for its people, and I did sign that. That's no secret. I

3 never used it.

4 Q. Is this your signature on the certificate?

5 A. Yes, it is my signature, Mr. Pisarevic.

6 Q. This ammunition mentioned here, could you tell us what it means,

7 04 and M160?

8 A. I'm afraid I don't know that either. It was a long time ago.

9 Q. Could that be pistol ammunition perhaps?

10 A. I don't know. It could be.

11 Q. Could it be ammunition for a Kalashnikov?

12 A. I never had any such thing.

13 Q. So you're claiming that you never had a Kalashnikov?

14 A. I don't know. I don't remember having it.

15 Q. Let me remind you. Kalashnikov is an automatic rifle manufactured

16 in Russia.

17 A. I do know what a Kalashnikov is, but I don't know that I had one.

18 Q. Will you please look at document D6/4. It is a receipt with the

19 number 1342, dated the 2nd of March, 1992, in the name of Atic Ratif [as

20 interpreted]. Do you know Atic Ratif [as interpreted]?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Is Ratif Atic [as interpreted] from Bosanski Samac?

23 A. He is.

24 Q. Is Ratif Atic [as interpreted] a Muslim by ethnicity?

25 A. You should ask him.

1 Q. Is Mr. Atic [as interpreted], as far as you know, was he a member

2 of the SDA?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Will you please look under entry number 1. It says "9-mm Luger

5 long, 5.000 pieces." What is that?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Then item number 2. It says 7.62 ammunition ZAG 2.520. Do you

8 know what that is?

9 A. You yourself told what it is, but I don't know what it is in this

10 document. I don't even know what that ammunition looks like.

11 Q. 7.20 -- 7.62 ammunition, and it says 2.520, and then "marking

12 ammunition" 7.62, 1.260. Would you look at the stamp and tell us what it

13 says.

14 A. I can't read it. It is illegible.

15 Q. Would you be kind enough, Mr. Izetbegovic, to look at the original

16 of that document.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher show the witness

18 the original, please.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the original? Yes, can counsel give it to

20 the usher. And before you show it to the witness, can the Prosecutor see

21 it, please.

22 A. This is not an original. This is a photocopy.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The one the witness has is a photocopy, but

24 what is claimed to be the original is being looked at, examined by the

25 Prosecution first.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: This appears to be an original document. A carbon

2 copy but -- [Microphone not activated]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone. It appears to be what?

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry. This appears to be a carbon copy, but it is

5 an original carbon copy, in other words, it hasn't got the Byro direct

6 onto it, but it's obviously an original document, appears to be an

7 original document.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the Trial Chamber please see it before it is

9 shown to the witness.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pisarevic, do you have other carbon copies,

12 originals of all the documents you have now given to the Court?

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] No, I don't have them, sir, Your

14 Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: What we are looking at is a carbon copy. It has a

16 stamp. And we will have it marked and we would like it also produced into

17 evidence, because it is important to look at this as well, if this is what

18 you call the original. Can we have it marked, please.

19 THE REGISTRAR: This will be --

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I quite agree, Your Honour, but I

21 would like to say that I just asked Mr. Izetbegovic whether the stamp is

22 the original. The stamp is the original over carbon. You see, the stamp

23 cannot go through a carbon, so the stamp is original.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but because it's important that we have sight

25 of what you call the original, it's important that we have it in evidence

1 as well.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... and then it can

4 be shown to the witness and then he can answer any questions.

5 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked D7/4 ter.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's in Serbo-Croat. Yes. Okay. Thank you.

7 Then it can be shown to the witness.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Attorney, if you're asking me to

9 read this, I will read it. It says:

10 "Military post number, I don't know what, Slavonski Brod." That's

11 all that I'm able to say regarding this document, because this is the

12 first time I'm seeing this document. I don't know anything about it and I

13 can't discuss it.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

15 Q. Would you agree with me in saying that Slavonski Brod is in the

16 republic of Croatia?

17 A. Yes, it is in Croatia. Where else?

18 Q. Could we agree, then, that Ratif Atic [as interpreted], as a

19 member of your party, or rather, of the SDA, went to Croatia, and in the

20 Republic of Croatia obtained ammunition and weapons?

21 A. I can't say anything. Neither did I give any such instructions,

22 nor was I consulted over such matters.

23 Q. Thank you. Let me move on to another topic now, and please answer

24 my question. Would you agree with me in saying that in the municipality

25 of Samac, there was a hunters' organisation known as "Fazan," pheasant?

1 A. The exact name of the hunters' organisation is not known to me as

2 I am not a hunter. I hear for the first time that it was called "Fazan,"

3 but there was such an organisation in existence for a long time.

4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that a large number of hunters were of

5 Muslim ethnicity?

6 A. There were some, but I don't know how many and I can't tell you

7 what the ratio was.

8 Q. Can we agree that a significant number of members of the hunters'

9 association who were of Muslim ethnicity were also members of the Party of

10 Democratic Action?

11 A. That was absolutely their right, to join whichever party they

12 wanted. What more is there to be said? There were certainly some who

13 were not.

14 Q. Do you know that those hunters were also members of an armed unit

15 which the SDA formed in Samac?

16 A. Could I ask a distinction to be made? Let us leave the hunters

17 alone. I don't know anything about that. In each ethnic group there were

18 hunters, and they were normally in their parties. We had no cooperation

19 with hunters.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Just answer the question. Do not go ahead or, you

21 know, explain anything if you think counsel's questions are leading to

22 something else. Just answer the question as it is put to you.

23 And Counsel, also remember to let the answer get completed before

24 you start speaking because the interpretation is overlapping.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Honour.

1 Q. Can we agree that hunters were armed with hunting rifles and

2 carbines?

3 A. Of course. Hunters always had that, with a licence issued by the

4 authorities. Now, who belonged to what, I don't know. They organised

5 themselves. That was quite legal.

6 Q. Would you agree with me in saying that a carbine is a hunting

7 weapon with optical sights?

8 A. Don't ask me a lot about hunting weapons or trophy weapons. I

9 don't know anything about these others either. I'm a layman about these

10 things, and I'm sure there were carbines. Every well-off hunter had a

11 carbine who could afford to buy one. Now, what ethnicity he was is

12 something that I'm not interested in. Everyone had it, that is, whoever

13 could afford it, and this was for game, used for large game.

14 Q. Would you agree with me in saying that carbines with optical

15 sights are in fact weapons known as "snipers"?

16 A. It is very difficult, Mr. Attorney, to answer your questions,

17 because one question contains ten others. I can see where you're heading.

18 I'm asking you once again: Don't ask me anything about weapons. I

19 simply will not answer those questions, because I don't know anything

20 about weapons.

21 Q. Just say you don't know.

22 A. I don't know.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's all we need from you in the situation

24 where you don't know the answer or you don't know what is being described

25 and you are being asked to agree, you simply say you don't know.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I'm saying that I

2 don't know.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Are you familiar with an organisation called the Patriotic League

5 in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. I heard about this after the camp and in the camp. I was neither

7 a member nor do I know where it was, how it was, and things like that.

8 Q. Can we then agree that you don't know?

9 A. What?

10 Q. What the tasks and objectives were of the Patriotic League, and

11 that was the military organisation of the Muslims and arming them by

12 illegal means.

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, can you confirm that the SDA, the Party of

15 Democratic Action, was in a coalition with the Croatian Democratic

16 Community, the HDZ?

17 A. I never saw any such document and I know that we were not in a

18 coalition. We were not in a coalition with anyone.

19 Q. Did you, on behalf of the SDA party, hold and participate in

20 certain meetings with representatives of the Croatian Democratic Community

21 of Samac municipality?

22 A. We never did. There was an attempt, but I managed to break it up,

23 and nothing happened, nothing came of it.

24 Q. Can you remember that a meeting of representatives of the Party of

25 Democratic Action and of the Croatian Democratic Community was held in the

1 Croatian village of Rudo on the 19th of March, 1992?

2 A. I remember there was one such meeting. That was the meeting I

3 mentioned, and upon the initiative of certain individuals. It wasn't

4 properly organised. I went to that meeting uninvited, uninvited, and I

5 expressed my opinion and my position, which is to be found on the tape. I

6 said everything I thought about the meeting on that tape. I didn't accept

7 it, and nothing came of it, and there was never a joint Crisis Staff or

8 anything like that formed.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, excuse me. I believe there is some

10 misunderstanding here in the transcript. Mr. Pisarevic asked about

11 village Prud, and on the transcript we have Rudo. This is also a village

12 in Bosnia, and this could possibly make some misunderstanding here, so

13 just ...

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can counsel clarify that, please, what he

15 meant.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder, Mr. Pisarevic, if I could just ask Mr.

17 Izetbegovic: What is this tape that you mentioned from this meeting in

18 the village of Prud?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The tape which was directed and

20 produced by Mr. Zaric when I was interrogated in the MUP. I said what I

21 had to say about that meeting and I uphold what I said then.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you. Now I understand you mean the

23 videotape that we saw yesterday. Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the correction regarding what your

25 colleague mentioned in the transcript, please.

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

2 Q. Was it in the Croatian village of Prud?

3 A. Yes, Prud, Prud.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown,

5 please, a map, P9, Exhibit P9, please.

6 Q. Would you please show on this map the location of the town of

7 Samac and the location of the Croatian village of Prud.

8 A. This should be the town of Samac, and Prud would be over here, on

9 the other side of the Bosna River. I assume that is where it is.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you leave your pointer there where you are

11 saying Prud should be over here, please.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, look a little more closely at the map, please.

14 You can see number 99 on the map. That could help.

15 A. Where is that number? Oh, I see.

16 Q. And you see a word written there.

17 A. Oh, that's Prud. Yes. Yes, yes, that's it. I knew it was right

18 next to the Bosna River. Yes, yes. This is the village of Prud and this

19 is the inhabited area.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: As it's shown on the exhibit. Yes, thank you.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 For the record, may I say that the witness pointed on the map,

23 Exhibit P9, the location of the town of Bosanski Samac and the location of

24 the Croatian village of Prud.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Could we agree that Mr. Sulejman Tihic attended that meeting

3 together with you?

4 A. Yes, he did.

5 Q. Would you agree that at the meeting there was also Alija

6 Fitozovic, not Izetbegovic, I'm sorry.

7 A. Be careful. You mustn’t make such mistakes.

8 Q. Alija Fitozovic?

9 A. Yes, Alija Fitozovic was there.

10 Q. Thank you. And at that meeting were also present Filip Evic, a

11 Croat, president of the municipal board of the HDZ of Bosanski Samac?

12 A. Yes, he was, if that is what you're asking.

13 Q. Was Mr. Mato Nujic also present at that meeting, a Croat, member

14 of the HDZ and president of the Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Samac?

15 A. I don't remember that he was there.

16 Q. Could you confirm that Mr. Mato Madzarevic was present at the

17 meeting, a Croat and a member of the HDZ from Bosanski Samac?

18 A. Yes, he was.

19 Q. Can you confirm that Mr. Slavko Matic was also present at the

20 meeting, a Croat and a member of the HDZ from the Croatian village of

21 Domaljica [phoen]?

22 A. I can't remember.

23 Q. Was Mr. Dragicevic, Vinko, present at the meeting, a Croat and

24 chief of police of Bosanski Samac?

25 A. I didn't notice him either.

1 Q. Was Mr. Marko Bozanovic present at the meeting, a Croat and a

2 member of the HDZ, a reserve military officer, that is, captain

3 first-class?

4 A. I think he was.

5 Q. Was Mr. Ivo Kobas present, a Croat and a commander of the

6 territorial staff of the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

7 A. I didn't see him.

8 Q. Was the meeting attended by Mr. Franjo Barukcic, a Croat from

9 Bosanski Samac and a member of the HDZ?

10 A. Also I didn't see him. He is deceased. I don't know why he

11 should be, he wasn't any ...

12 Q. At that meeting, did you make a decision to form a crisis -- a

13 joint Crisis Staff which was headed by Filip Evic, a Croat and president

14 of the municipal board of the HDZ for Samac?

15 A. Such a proposal was made at the meeting, and that was the reason

16 why I went to see what the reason for the meeting was. I stood up

17 resolutely immediately I realised where that was leading. I said it was

18 out of the question, and I also said that the SDA party would not take

19 part in such a meeting, and we walked out of it. Possibly afterwards they

20 may have formed something, but without the SDA party.

21 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that it was decided at that time

22 that the commanders of the joint armed units should be Marko Bozanovic, a

23 Croat, an officer in reserve of the Yugoslav People's Army with the rank

24 of captain, and Mr. Alija Fitozovic, a Muslim and a member of the SDA, an

25 officer in reserve of the Yugoslav People's Army with the rank of major?

1 A. As we walked out, I don't know what happened afterwards.

2 Q. Just one more question about that meeting. Was the meeting also

3 attended by representatives of the Croatian army?

4 A. I didn't notice anyone in uniform.

5 Q. Was Braco, or rather, Stjepan Blazanovic, was he present at the

6 meeting?

7 A. Personally, we never knew each other. I saw him for the first

8 time. Yes, he was at that meeting.

9 Q. I shall now ask you a few questions about the general situation in

10 Samac municipality, Mr. Izetbegovic, so will you tell me, please: Can we

11 agree that the SDA was not satisfied with the public security station's

12 activities and work in Bosanski Samac, that is, the work of the police?

13 A. I don't know why it would have expressed its dissatisfaction when,

14 at one point in time, the SDS withdrew its members and the HDZ withdrew

15 its members - I said that in my earlier testimony - and the town was left

16 without protection. Citizens were mobilised as reserve policemen so as to

17 maintain some sort of continuity, because the police, or militia as it was

18 called in those days, had been formed in the SDS, which had its base in

19 Crkvina, and the HDZ had its own base in Domaljevac. So clearly, as there

20 were few people available who could fill in the vacancies, filled them in,

21 and those were the citizens, people who were willing to assist, who were

22 willing to cooperate. These others didn't want to be in MUP. There were

23 a few of them individually, but nothing more could be done by then.

24 Q. Can you tell me now whether any diversions took place, whether

25 there were any diversions, and whether any diversion was solved or

1 sabotage was solved, or were the perpetrators of those sabotage incidents

2 taken to prison?

3 A. I can't discuss that because, in the kind of work I did, I

4 wouldn't have known. I don't know what the police did, whether the police

5 solved situations of that kind or not, and how it did, I don't know.

6 Q. Very well, but do you agree that in the police force of Bosanski

7 Samac the leading policemen were Vinko Dragicevic, a Croat, and Dragan

8 Lukic, also a Croat?

9 A. Dragan stayed on from the previous make-up, but the other man was

10 appointed by the HDZ.

11 Q. But they're both Croats?

12 A. Yes, they are, both of them.

13 Q. Do you agree with me that the police force was composed of the

14 regular duty policemen and reserve police force?

15 A. Well, at the beginning that's how it was, because it was a big

16 area which had to be covered, and there weren't enough men to do it.

17 Q. May we agree with the fact that in the reserve composition of the

18 police force in Bosanski Samac, the majority of those were Muslims that

19 made up the reserve composition of the police force in Bosanski Samac?

20 A. Well, what can you expect when nobody wants to go to the police

21 station and be a member, when nobody wants to come from the Croatian part?

22 You know that the Muslims were in town. The municipality of Samac does

23 not have a single village that is Muslim, so it was quite normal that it

24 was these people who were mobilised when no other side wanted to. They

25 had to keep law and order in some way. The Muslims did not impose

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1 themselves. They were called up and they responded to the call.

2 Q. Well, yes. Do we agree that the majority of them were Muslims?

3 A. Well, following on from that logic, yes.

4 Q. Can we agree with the fact that the political forces filled in the

5 -- put forward people for the police force and names for the police

6 force?

7 A. Yes. All sides, all parties put forward their own people, and

8 then, once again, according to the electoral procedure and principle, the

9 percentages were set, but it was the -- the parties were asked to put

10 forward their own people.

11 Q. May we agree, then, that the complement of the reserve police

12 force was not done by the secretariat for national defence, as is the law?

13 A. The secretariat for national defence no longer existed either.

14 That had disbanded as well.

15 Q. Was it because of this uncertainty and insecurity and the general

16 state of affairs as it was, that the SDA started to form party patrols

17 which had their checkpoints during the night in the town of Samac itself?

18 A. Precisely because of the prevailing situation, one in which there

19 was no security any more. There was no safety for the citizens of the

20 town. The Muslims saw to that. They had the right to self-organisation

21 to protect themselves. That was the sole purpose, and none other.

22 Q. May we agree, then, that the situation in the municipality was one

23 of general chaos and uncertainty and insecurity because the authorities

24 were not functioning properly?

25 A. Yes, but quite certainly it was not the townsfolk of the town of

1 Samac that caused the situation. This came with the overthrow of power

2 and authority and all the rest of it. But they were able to keep law and

3 order as far as they were able, and the different institutions functioning

4 as far as they were able.

5 Q. The patrols, your patrols, the SDA patrols, were they armed?

6 A. They weren't the classical type of patrol, as you seem to

7 indicate. They were citizens that had been attached to the militia

8 station, as it was called then. A list would be sent to the duty officer

9 with all the names. Nothing was done illegally. Everything was above

10 board. And they, together with the members of the regular police force,

11 would tour the town and protect it, look for its security. Of course,

12 some of them had weapons, some of them were armed, and that is no

13 secret. Nobody is trying to say otherwise.

14 Q. Did those patrols have their own radio communication?

15 A. I don't know, except what they had received from the police force,

16 from the police station, the Motorola type. Some people got this so that

17 they could call in and report from the locality they were at.

18 Q. Do you happen to remember, or do you know that at the entrance

19 points to the town of Bosanski Samac barricades had been set up at the end

20 of March 1993 -- 1992, I'm sorry. 1992.

21 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

22 Q. Can you tell me, or will you agree with me when I say that those

23 barricades were erected by the Democratic Action Party side?

24 A. No, I don't think we could say that.

25 Q. What, then, do you know? Who erected the barricades at the

1 entrance to Bosanski Samac?

2 A. I assume somebody who needed them, but at this point, I don't

3 know. I can't say.

4 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, did you at the time, following orders from your

5 president, Mr. Tihic, go to the organised Yugoslav People's Army in Brcko?

6 A. Yes, I did go, and I went to say that the party does not stand

7 behind that and that the party tried and did its best to do away with the

8 barricades, and I went to state that, to say that we weren't behind those

9 barricades, that they were individuals who had done what they had done.

10 That's what happened. And I cannot say of those individuals that they

11 were party members.

12 And I didn't go alone. I was accompanied by the federal MUP

13 inspector, who was also present. We went officially to set ourselves

14 apart from that because we were not involved in it.

15 Q. Do you assert the fact that the barricades at the entrance to the

16 town of Samac were erected by unruly members of the Democratic Action

17 Party?

18 A. Thank you for giving them such a mild qualification. It is true

19 that each side, every side has unruly members, even families have unruly

20 family members. I don't want to give a negative answer. Probably there

21 were some unruly members who had these ideas in their heads, but there

22 were many others too.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry. We have a problem with the

24 transcript. It's 62, page 62, under 17. It says "go to the organised

25 Yugoslav People's Army in Brcko." It didn't say "organised." It said

1 kazerne or something like that, military barracks. If this can be

2 clarified, please. There is Yugoslav -- it says here in the --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel --

4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... row 17, page

5 62, it says, "Go to the organised Yugoslav People's Army in Brcko," and

6 the witness has said the garrison of the Yugoslav People's -- or the

7 question was the garrison of Yugoslav People's Army in Brcko.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask counsel to speak

9 into the microphone, otherwise we find it very hard to hear him sometimes.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, do stand near the -- I keep thinking

11 that maybe you should swap places with your co-counsel, I think, so that

12 you are nearer the microphone.

13 Yes. And can you clarify this with the witness, the military --

14 what was it? The organised -- whatever it was called. Can you clarify

15 that with the witness, please.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, did you, yourself, on that day go, following

18 orders from the president of the SDS Bosanski Samac, Mr. Sulejman Tihic,

19 to the garrison in Brcko?

20 A. I say again: I was not following orders of any kind. We had just

21 had a meeting and we condemned this, and I did go to Brcko to say that the

22 SDA party was not behind what was happening and that we would do

23 everything in our power to remove them. And that's what happened, they

24 were removed.

25 Q. Did you go to Brcko at your own initiative or was it the result of

1 a decision made by an organ, perhaps the Crisis Staff of the SDA, or some

2 other body perhaps?

3 A. Well, let me say that it might have been the Crisis Staff. Let's

4 say that, that I didn't go on my own, but we decided that it was necessary

5 to go to Brcko and to tell the truth about everything, as far as that was

6 possible.

7 Q. Will you agree with me that the stated barricades were erected and

8 positioned by Mr. Alija Fitozovic, the commander of your armed unit?

9 A. I can't say. I didn't see it. I was sleeping that night, and in

10 the morning when I got up, I heard about this and then saw it. But I

11 can't agree with you there, because I don't know that this was done by an

12 individual. There were probably a few -- group of people who had got

13 together, or perhaps somebody from the party might have been involved, but

14 I don't have any details about that incident at all.

15 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, at one of the meetings of the municipal board of

16 the SDA party, did you discuss the question of erecting barricades and

17 responsibilities of the participants in those barricades?

18 A. Yes, we did condemn it, and we realised that this had been done to

19 our detriment largely. Now, what actually happened, we're not clear

20 today, but each of us, individually and personally, can think about that,

21 and when somebody asks me, I know roughly what had happened. But it

22 wasn't an easy matter. We were bombed from -- bombarded from all sides,

23 with various accusations hurled at us, false accusations.

24 Q. Just a moment, please. Do you agree with me that there are three

25 entrance points into the town of Samac?

1 A. Shall I enumerate them? I don't know. Let me see. One, two,

2 three -- yes, three.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] May the map, Exhibit P9, be shown

4 to Mr. Izetbegovic once again, and perhaps he can point out those three

5 entrances into town.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Before he does that, I want to ask counsel: Are

7 these entrances marked by towns? Do they appear on the map as towns, or

8 would we need the witness to use a pen or some coloured instrument to

9 actually cross them?

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] The witness can mark this with a

11 marker pen. He can mark the entrances. That ought not to represent a

12 problem. I just don't know whether Mr. Izetbegovic's sight is good enough

13 for him to be able to see these points.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: That's why I asked if it's through particular towns,

15 in which case there would be no need for marking them. If you say they

16 went through Amsterdam, for instance, there's no need for us to mark it on

17 the map if Amsterdam is shown on the map.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, they are entrance

19 points into town from three directions. They go from the rural settlement

20 areas, from the villages, and then you get into town. So he will be able

21 to indicate the directions coming into town.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. In which case, then he should mark them.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, can you mark the entrance into the town of Samac

25 from the direction of Modrica.

1 A. Yes. Let me see the map.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the witness be shown the map, and he

3 should use the marker, what do you call the instrument, because we are

4 using the ELMO.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Because we don't have another copy for marking, so

7 he will use the pointer.

8 Yes, the Prosecution.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours pleases, I think we had better be

10 clear about what you're using, because otherwise we might run into

11 problems. This map has been marked, I think. In fact, if you look at the

12 ELMO, you can see a black spot.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I think this is P9, the one that was marked by

15 Tihic originally.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: And after, we agreed that every time we're going to

18 mark the map, we should either have a fresh map or, alternatively, there's

19 something that goes into the transcript so that the markings now made by

20 Mr. Izetbegovic are clearly distinguished from that black spot which was

21 marked by Mr. Tigic. As far as the Prosecution is concerned, it doesn't

22 matter which method is adopted, so long as we don't have markings that we

23 can't later identify, so that's all I think should be -- either we mark it

24 with something different than a black spot, perhaps a number or something

25 like that, or initials, or we use a new --

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's see where he points first. Let's see where

2 this witness points with the indicator.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Could you indicate to us the entrance to the town of Samac from

5 the direction of Modrica or the Crka [phoen] and Pisari villages.

6 A. This is it here.

7 Q. Yes. Thank you. Could you now indicate --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... -- with the

9 pointer. By the time we get the English translation, the pointer is off

10 the mark, yes. So can he do that again and leave it for -- yes.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Stay there with your pointer.

12 Leave the pointer there.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: What I want to know is, does it have a name? Does

15 that entrance have a name? No. Okay. So we need it to be marked in a

16 different colour. It will still remain an exhibit for the Prosecution,

17 but marked as the transcript will show.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got a pink marking pen if that would be of any

19 assistance.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, would you mark all those entrances with the magic

23 marker you have in your hand now, which is pink in colour, the first

24 first.

25 A. You want the junction near your house?

1 JUDGE MUMBA: If that is the correct position, why not?

2 A. [Marks]

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Would you show us the entrance now from Orasje, or rather, the

5 village of Tisina.

6 A. [Marks]

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So when it goes back on the ELMO, then he can

8 explain this one is near whatever town so that we all get it clear.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Could you now indicate, please, Mr. Izetbegovic, the entrance from

11 the village of Prud into the town of Samac.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: And can we have it marked "1" beside the circle, in

13 pink.

14 A. [Marks]

15 MR. DI FAZIO: I think it's a different entrance.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: What?

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I think it's a different

18 entrance from the other two--

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The ones --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: -- from the other two that were marked, so ...

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Because I understood counsel to have asked the

22 witness to mark all the entrances.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: No. I think now we're getting a third one marked,

24 I think.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. All right.

1 A. [Marks]

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Thank you. I should now like to ask you to indicate to us the

4 places, the entrances to town where the barricades had been set up, at

5 which points.

6 A. I didn't see those barricades at all. All I know is that in this

7 part -- but I didn't see any of them. I just know that what happened was

8 in this part, moving towards the bridge.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Now, before we leave that, for purposes of

10 clarification, because there are three points, can we have "1," "2," "3,"

11 and describe the names, if they have any. Can we have that again marked

12 on the spots with the pink marker so that we have the same colour for this

13 witness.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] It's like this: We can put the

15 Ciglana entrance, Ciglana --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: That's number 1.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] -- as you, Witness, say, next to

18 my house. That's number 1. Then number 2 can be the Uzarija entrance;

19 and entrance number 3, the entrance from the direction of the village of

20 Prud.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Do you agree with me, Mr. Izetbegovic, that the town was not

24 blocked with barricades from the number 3 entrance, moving from the

25 direction of Prud village?

1 A. I don't know. All I know is that the barricades were at number 2,

2 and when I returned from Brcko, there was nothing, and I didn't see

3 anything, even when I went there.

4 Q. May we agree with the following fact: that entrance number 3 from

5 Prud village, which was a Croatian village, was free?

6 A. It was always free, even on the day when --

7 Q. Thank you. Was entrance possible for citizens, for the townsfolk

8 from the Serbian villages of Pisari and Skaric, to go into town via the

9 number 1 Ciglana entrance?

10 A. I can't give you the details. I don't know, quite simply. I

11 didn't take part.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] All right. You don't know.

13 That's fine. That's fine.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the witness complete his answer

15 regarding the entrance number 3 from Prud village? He said, "It was

16 always free, even on the day when --" He didn't complete. Can he

17 complete the answer, please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it began happening, when what

19 happened began happening --

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Could you tell us the date, please?

22 A. Well, between the 16th and 17th. That's what I was saying, when

23 that happened.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. May we agree that the barricades were erected when this was

2 ordered by the leadership of the Democratic Action Party?

3 A. No, we cannot.

4 Q. Do you know who issued the order for the erection of the

5 barricades?

6 A. I don't know that either.

7 Q. Do you know how the barricades were dismantled?

8 A. I've told you umpteen times that I never saw them, and when I

9 returned, there was nothing there.

10 Q. May we agree with the fact that the representatives of the JNA

11 said that they would not intervene because of the barricade erection, that

12 that was not under their competencies?

13 A. They didn't tell me that when I was there, to see Lieutenant

14 Colonel Nikolic, and with the gentleman inspector -- this is what he

15 said. He received me very nicely. He gave me a cup of coffee. I found

16 them in a completely mobile state. And he said, "Had you not come, we

17 would have started out with our tanks, because they were ready," and

18 thank God that I went when I did.

19 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, do you know the following fact: that all the

20 armed formations were placed on the alert of the Croatian Defence Council

21 in Samac municipality?

22 A. I don't know that. I had no insight at all into their

23 organisation.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Izetbegovic, your son's name is Adis Izetbegovic;

25 is that right?

1 A. I should like to warn you not to mention my son here. I will not

2 speak about my children here. If necessary, I will talk about that with

3 the Trial Chamber separately.

4 Q. I wish to ask something in that connection. I don't see why your

5 reaction was what it was. I just asked your son's name, whether that was

6 your son's name.

7 A. I had no reaction whatsoever. I remained calm. But please don't

8 touch my family. They have suffered enough, Mr. Pisarevic, from your

9 acts in peacetime as well.

10 Q. Very well. I withdraw that question. I won't ask you that.

11 Can I ask you this, then: Pasaga Tihic, is he your daughter's

12 husband?

13 A. Once again, please refrain from mentioning my family members.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Let us now

15 move on to a different area which has to do with the 4th Detachment.

16 And may I propose that we leave that topic for tomorrow, because I

17 see that our time is up, rather than start it now.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And I would like to know how much more time

19 you need to complete your cross-examination, Mr. Pisarevic.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I need 30 minutes at the most.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, could I ask you to perhaps

23 direct that question to remaining Defence counsel, or perhaps I -- yes, if

24 you could, because we have, of course, witnesses who are ready to go and

25 we'd like to be able to have an idea of how long tasks that the

1 Prosecution needs to attend to -- how much time we'll have to attend to

2 those tasks, and secondly, when we could be expected, at least vaguely, to

3 call them.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Defence counsel may be in a position to let us know

6 now if their cross-examinations are going to be short or lengthy.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we need a rough estimate, as I'm

8 sure the counsel know the problems we -- the Tribunal normally has with

9 witnesses, retaining witnesses or bringing them over, and things like

10 that. So since you said half an hour, can I have an indication from

11 counsel for Mr. Tadic roughly how long he thinks he will take?

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thirty-five to forty minutes

13 maximum.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Zecevic.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: One hour, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, it depends on the, I would say,

18 way of answering, the witness. If the witness will be cooperative, as he

19 was with the Prosecutor, then I can say around one hour would be enough.

20 If the witness will try to avoid answers, to have - I don't know - problem

21 of understanding, then, believe me, I cannot say for precise.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. All right.

23 MR. PANTELIC: I kindly ask you to understand my position. Thank

24 you.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I hope that's helpful to the Prosecution.

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1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall rise and continue tomorrow morning at 0930

3 hours.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.05 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of

6 October 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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