1 Wednesday, 31 October 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav
9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's cross-examination, Mr. Zecevic or
11 Mr. Pantelic. Who will begin? Mr. Pantelic will begin, yes.
12 WITNESS: MUHAMED BICIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, good morning, Your Honours. Thank you.
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bicic, I'm Pantelic, attorney
17 from Belgrade, representing Mr. Blagoje Simic.
18 Mr. Bicic, among others, you gave two statements to the
19 Prosecutor. One was given in the period between the 22nd and the 24th of
20 February, 1995; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And your second statement was given on the 12th of March, 1998; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you remember the part of your statement relating to a
1 description of the members of the paramilitary units, a certain Lugar,
2 Beli, Zec? Do you remember giving a description of their appearance?
3 A. I remember making a description of their appearance. Whether
4 those were paramilitary units, as far as I was able to see, they were
5 units that were part of all the units that were in Samac.
6 MR. PANTELIC: I would like the assistance of Mr. Usher because I
7 have a statement here of this witness, and he's going to read relevant
8 portions which are connected to this particular question.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Now, which one? Which one of the statements?
10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. This is the statement in B/C/S version. He
11 gave it between 22nd and 24 February, 1995, to the Office of the
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
14 MR. PANTELIC: It's strictly related to the descriptions of these
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Go ahead.
17 MR. WEINER: Could counsel identify the page number for us?
18 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, this is the B/C/S version 00637684.
19 MR. WEINER: Just the page number on the bottom because we can
20 follow along in English.
21 MR. PANTELIC: There is no page on the bottom of B/C/S version.
22 There is only your ERN number. Roughly saying, Mr. Weiner, it's maybe the
23 second page of your English version, where he is speaking about the --
24 immediately after the arrest of 18 April, he is speaking about these
25 particular persons. Because my English version is totally illegible.
1 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much, counsel.
2 MR. PANTELIC: Okay, you're welcome.
3 Q. [Interpretation] So Mr. Bicic, somewhere around the middle of the
4 page, you will see a description of Lugar, this man called Lugar. Could
5 you read that out for us, please? Have you found the passage?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Will you read it out aloud, please, what Lugar looked like.
8 A. Do I have to read it out aloud?
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, so that the interpreters can follow.
10 A. "Lugar was born maybe in 1953 or 1954. He was about 180
11 centimetres in height; 90 to 100 kilogrammes in weight; strong build; oval
12 face; prominent cheekbones and jaw; brown, short hair; brown eyebrows --"
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Could you read slowly, because the interpreter has
14 to interpret.
15 A. "Lugar was born in 1953 or 1956. He was about 180 centimetres in
16 height. He weighed between 90 to 100 kilogrammes. He had a strong
17 build; oval face; prominent cheekbones and jaw; short, brown hair; brown
18 eyebrows; had a boxer kind of nose, scars or cuts on his face due to
19 boxing or whatever."
20 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could you just read that last sentence as well, please.
22 A. You mean this one, that I had seen him before on TV in boxing
24 Q. That's right. Thank you.
25 Tell me, please, Mr. Bicic: How do you know that Lugar was born
1 sometime between 1953 and 1956? Did you know that in those days in Samac
2 in 1992?
3 A. No, but I assume that, and that is why I said between 1953 and
5 Q. Yes, but these descriptions are correct, are they not: his height,
6 his weight? You still abide by what you said then?
7 A. Yes. Roughly, that's what he looked like at that time.
8 Q. Very well, then. Will you please read out two paragraphs further
9 down the page, where it says, "Beli was born," the paragraph relating to
11 A. "Beli --"
12 Q. Slowly, please, because of the interpreters.
13 A. "Beli was born roughly in 1958 or 1960. He was about 170
14 centimetres in height, also of strong build. He had very light hair,
15 which is why they called him "Beli," which means "white." He had a pudgy
17 Q. Thank you. So regarding Beli, you also roughly thought that was
18 his age. You didn't hear that from someone else; this is what you
20 A. Yes. That is my assumption that I referred to when describing the
22 Q. But regarding his description, his height and appearance in those
23 days, that is a correct description, is it not? Yes or no?
24 A. Yes. Yes, roughly so.
25 Q. Thank you. Would you please be kind enough and read out the
1 sentence starting with the word "Zec," a nickname of another member of
2 those units.
3 A. "Zec was 28 to 30 years old. He was about 200 centimetres in
4 height. He had short, black hair. He had a strong characteristic
5 Montenegrin accent. I later learnt he was from Pljevlja, in Montenegro.
6 Once Zec kicked me in the chest, saying that he was a Muslim too, as his
7 mother was a Muslim, but he was on the right side, and why wasn't I on the
8 right side? That is how I remember him."
9 Q. So in this particular case too, with respect to this person named
10 Zec, you spoke to that person, and therefore you can be certain of this
11 description, that he was about 200 centimetres tall and had short, black
13 A. I didn't talk to that person, but that person spoke to me while
14 beating me. Therefore, I said "roughly," or "approximately." I was
15 describing the man that I saw several times.
16 Q. Can we agree that the description is quite accurate regarding his
17 height and his hair; yes or no?
18 A. Approximately so, yes.
19 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Bicic, when did you see Lugar on television
20 in boxing bouts?
21 A. I can't remember.
22 Q. But you said that in your statement.
23 A. Yes, I said that, but I can't remember. It was a long time ago.
24 Q. Thank you. Will you please turn to the next page, and you will
25 see a paragraph beginning with the words "Stevo Todorovic." Will you read
1 that out, please.
2 A. "Stevo Todorovic was born approximately in 1955. About 185 to 190
3 centimetres in height; fat; ugly face; light brown hair. He wore a green
4 camouflage uniform with a 4-S insignia and a green beret with a Kokarda on
5 it. Even before the war, people avoided him."
6 Q. Thank you. Had you seen Stevan Todorovic before the war?
7 A. Yes. He was a regular customer, on a daily basis, in our pizza
8 parlour. He would come several times a day, in fact.
9 Q. Thank you. Will you please read out now the third paragraph from
10 this one, when you talk about an officer called Srdjan?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Will you read that part out, please?
13 A. "Later" --
14 Q. I'm sorry, below that, the paragraph below that.
15 A. "Srdjan was about 25 years old, he was about 165 centimetres in
16 height. He had brown hair, wore a JNA officer uniform, and on his shirt
17 was a metal bar with two yellowish stripes showing that he was a
19 Q. Thank you. So, Mr. Bicic, on the basis of all these details from
20 your statement, we can agree, can't we, that you give quite a precise
21 description of people regarding their physical appearance, their height,
22 the colour of their hair, and the other personal details; isn't that
24 A. Roughly the way I stated.
25 Q. But you are able to give quite a specific description. You worked
1 in a restaurant, you met a lot of people, you're able to describe people,
2 and I think you do that very well, don't you?
3 A. Yes, but will you please mitigate that a little?
4 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Bicic, are you aware of the nickname Debeli?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know the name of the person with that nickname?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Mr. Bicic, will you please turn to the page marked 689, the last
9 three numbers being 689? Will you please read out slowly, because of the
10 interpreters, the last paragraph on that page, beginning with the words
11 "on the 13th of May"? Please read that out for us.
12 A. "On the 13th of May, they took us back to Bosanski Samac to be
13 released, but they took us to the secondary school. There were about 47
14 of us who were transferred to the secondary school in Samac. The guy we
15 called Minus was in charge of our transfer. His group took us as far as
16 Obudovac where we were taken over by another group of policemen in
17 Bosanski Samac. They wore the police uniforms of the former Yugoslavia,
18 but their insignia were Serb. As we were getting off the bus, they beat
19 us, the local Chetniks beat us, who were wearing police uniforms. They
20 were from the environs of the town. Stevo Todorovic was the chief of
21 police in charge of the secondary school. When we arrived in Samac, we
22 stopped in front of the police station, and while we were inside the bus,
23 I heard Todorovic giving orders for us to be taken to a sports hall of the
24 secondary school. There, we were received by policemen. One of them was
25 drunk, and his rifle was unlocked, which he used to beat my brother so
1 that the rifle went off, hitting the bus."
2 Q. Will you be kind enough and turn the page and read the next
3 paragraph relating to this incident?
4 A. "When we were placed in the sports hall, we were lined up against
5 a wall and a policeman shot above our heads with a pistol, a Scorpion.
6 The shooting above our heads happened inside the sports hall. That night,
7 another group of people was brought in. A couple of men were beaten up,
8 one of them was Kemal Atic. So several people, one of whom was Kemal
9 Atic, were beaten up. The next day, Stevo Todorovic came with a fat man
10 whose name was Srecko Radovanovic, Debeli, escorted by about ten
11 soldiers. They inspected the school and later said that we would be
12 transferred to the primary school."
13 Q. Go on, please.
14 A. "I heard from the guards that Radovanovic was commander of the 2nd
15 Brigade of the Serb Chetnik army. He also used to beat us, with
16 Todorovic, who often accompanied him. Radovanovic wore a camouflage
17 uniform. He was very tall and very fat, so he was known as Debeli, the
18 fat guy.
19 "Two days after their visit we were transferred to the primary
20 school. At the primary school, there was room in the sports hall, but we
21 had to clean the toilet."
22 Q. Okay. Thank you. So, Mr. Bicic, will you try and explain to me
23 how come that in 1995 you mentioned the first and last name of the man
24 with the nickname Debeli and now you don't remember that? Was Debeli in
25 fact Srecko Radovanovic; yes or no?
1 A. I would say yes, though I'm not sure.
2 Q. But were you sure in 1995?
3 A. Even then I wasn't absolutely sure.
4 Q. How frequently did this Radovanovic, Debeli, first name Srecko,
5 beat you?
6 A. Several times, together with Todorovic.
7 Q. Applying the same methodology when describing the other members of
8 this paramilitary, when you say that Debeli was very tall, what did you
9 really mean? About how many centimetres?
10 A. Well, in my judgement, he was over two metres in height.
11 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Could my learned friend Mr. Krgovic
12 stand up here. Please stand up here.
13 Q. Will you please look at him, Mr. Bicic. And in relation to him,
14 was Debeli taller than he?
15 A. I would say he was.
16 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: And how tall is the exhibit?
18 MR. PANTELIC: That was my intention. Could you please tell us --
19 MR. KRGOVIC: One ninety-one.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
21 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Mr. Exhibit.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: One ninety-one.
23 MR. PANTELIC: Just a clarification, please.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: One --
25 MR. KRGOVIC: One ninety-one.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Centimetres.
2 MR. PANTELIC: One nine one. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bicic, how much do you weigh now, roughly?
4 A. About 110 kilogrammes.
5 Q. In those days this Debeli, who is over 2 metres in height, in
6 relation to your present weight, how much heavier would you say he was?
7 A. I couldn't really tell you how much he weighed, but he was heavy
8 and rather fat.
9 Q. Was he heavier than you are today?
10 A. Well, wearing a uniform, as he did, he looked heavier than I am.
11 Q. So can we sort of agree that in those days he weighed about 120
13 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecutor, please.
14 MR. WEINER: I object at this time. Counsel is not questioning
15 this witness as to any of the testimony that he's given; he's questioning
16 him concerning statements he made in 1995 which were not produced during
17 his direct examination. I don't see any relevance to this. I've let him
18 go for a while, but I just don't see any relevance.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps Mr. Pantelic --
20 MR. PANTELIC: May I explain?
21 JUDGE MUMBA: -- can explain.
22 MR. PANTELIC: I would be very glad to explain, Madam President.
23 Firstly, it is my impression that here we have a following
24 situation: Paraphrasing the word of the Honourable Judge May, I would say
25 that the appearances of certain witnesses here is -- might be design,
1 might be called as the testimony by ambush. Because I was checking all
2 the relevant statements of this witness. There is no word of Mr. Blagoje
3 Simic, my client, in all his statements, even the other witnesses.
4 So I was in a situation, firstly, to see this quite detailed
5 expression and description of my client several days before, through this
6 witness, and now I am obliged to go into the centre, into the eye of the
7 storm of this situation. I have to establish all details. Now I have to
8 make a certain reconstruction of these events. Because, as I said,
9 in -- there is not any trace of the mention of my client, and now, out of
10 blue, he mentioned. So that's my situation. I have to establish
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes, I think I get the point the Defence
13 counsel is making, and he is entitled to cross-examine along those lines,
15 Mr. Pantelic, go ahead.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
17 Q. [Interpretation] So let's finish this question, Mr. Bicic. So we
18 can agree that at that time, Debeli weighed about 120 kilogrammes, if you
19 are saying that he was heavier than you are now?
20 A. It seemed so.
21 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Bicic: With whom were you transferred
22 from Bijeljina to Bosanski Samac in mid-May, or, as you said, on the 13th
23 of May, 1992? Of course, I'm referring to the people you knew.
24 A. You are referring to the people who are detained with me, right?
25 Could you please clarify your question?
1 Q. Yes. Yes.
2 A. A few of us who were taken to Bijeljina were singled out in
3 Bijeljina and taken by helicopter to a place that was unknown to me while
4 the rest were returned with a few more people who were added to our group
5 in Bijeljina.
6 Q. Can you give me some of the names of some of your fellow citizens
7 who were transferred together with you to the high school in Samac in
8 mid-May? Could you give me names, please?
9 A. Ibrahim Salkic was transferred, my brother, Dragan Delic, Omer
10 Nalic, Silvestar, Safet Hadzialijagic, Buco; then the people who joined us
11 in Brcko; and I think three or four persons in Bijeljina. I can't
12 remember now. I can't remember all the names. I can mention a few other
13 persons, though, who were taken by helicopter.
14 Q. There is no need for that, Mr. Bicic. I was interested in the
15 names of these people who came to the secondary school with you.
16 A. Yes. I mentioned them. Esad Cosic and, I don't know, all the
17 rest who were there from the very outset together with us.
18 Q. So you were with them at the secondary school for a few days; is
19 that right?
20 A. Two days.
21 Q. And together with you, they saw Stevan Todorovic come in with
22 those other persons; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On that day, when Stevan Todorovic came with these other
25 persons -- actually was that the first or the second day of your stay at
1 the secondary school?
2 A. I think it was the first day.
3 Q. Approximately at what time did you reach the police station in
4 Bosanski Samac by bus?
5 A. I can't say that.
6 Q. All right. Was it in the morning?
7 A. In our parts, the morning is until 9.00 a.m., and after that we
8 think that the day already begins. So what time it was, I really can't
10 Q. When did you leave Bijeljina? During the day or during the night?
11 A. During the day, around 9.00. We didn't have any wristwatches -
12 they had already taken them away from us - so we could not orient
13 ourselves exactly in terms of what time it was exactly.
14 Q. Do you know approximately how many kilometres there are from
15 Bijeljina to Samac?
16 A. Yes. Approximately about 80 or 90 kilometres. I'm not sure.
17 Q. Did you stop anywhere along the road from Bijeljina to Samac?
18 A. Yes, we stopped somewhere around Loncari, towards Obudovac.
19 That's when the escorts who were escorting us changed. Until then, we
20 were escorted by military policemen from Brcko, those that we met earlier
21 while we were detained at the military barracks. And after that, some
22 persons that I did not know got in. They were wearing police uniforms and
23 camouflage uniforms. I did not know them.
24 Q. How long did you stop in Brcko?
25 A. I -- not in Brcko.
1 Q. I beg your pardon, in Loncari, in Loncari.
2 A. For how long? I don't know. Very briefly until they changed.
3 Q. Five, ten, fifteen minutes?
4 A. You're asking a lot. I really can't remember.
5 Q. My aim is to ask a lot so that we would clarify the situation.
6 A. Oh, yes, and if I were to ask you what you did ten years ago or
7 nine years ago, could you answer me whether you had lunch for 15 minutes
8 or for half an hour or whatever? Not to go into other matters and other
9 problems that I encountered at that time? We were sitting there --
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel -- I mean Mr. Bicic, please remember that
11 the counsel is asking questions in order to clarify the issues in this
12 trial, and please avoid being rude to him.
13 And, Mr. Pantelic, I think you understand the feelings of the
15 MR. PANTELIC: Exactly.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: And the fact that time has passed on.
17 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bicic, bearing in mind the fact that there
19 was a state of war, can we say that this journey from Bijeljina to Samac
20 by bus lasted for about five or six hours, so that perhaps you arrived in
21 Samac in the early afternoon hours? Would that be correct, in general
23 A. No. That journey was considerably shorter. Let's say it was
24 about two or two and a half hours, to give a rough estimate.
25 Q. Thank you. And when you were transferred to the secondary school,
1 around what time did Stevan Todorovic come together with the rest?
2 A. Stevan Todorovic, when the bus stopped in front of the police
3 station, he walked out. We saw him through the windshield, that is to
4 say, the front part of the bus, while the other windows had curtains drawn
5 on them. He probably said to these men, these policemen, these soldiers
6 who were escorting us, that they should take us to the gym, to the
7 gymnasium of the secondary school.
8 Q. After that, did he come to the gymnasium with these men when you
9 saw him, when you were describing those events? I mean that afternoon.
10 A. I do not recall.
11 Q. Well, let me jog your memory, then. You have just read your
12 statement from 1995, and you say that you were in this gymnasium at the
13 secondary school and that it was not on that day but on the next day that
14 Stevan Todorovic came to that gymnasium with Srecko Radovanovic, Debeli,
15 accompanied by about ten soldiers?
16 A. You asked me about that day, and I told you that I did not recall
17 that day, but I did see Stevan Todorovic the next day accompanied by
18 Debeli and about ten soldiers.
19 Q. But you did say before this Trial Chamber that in that group,
20 there was also Mr. Blagoje Simic?
21 A. Yes. He was the only civilian who appeared in that group.
22 Q. On that next day?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Although, you did not mention him in any one of the statements you
25 gave until now.
1 A. Well, I probably didn't, but I did see him there.
2 Q. Possibly, but none of the people who were there together with you
3 mentioned them [as interpreted] in their statements and no one saw him
4 there. How come?
5 MR. WEINER: I'd object. That's not true. That's not true. It's
6 a misleading question.
7 MR. PANTELIC: I will rephrase.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Even if it were true, the point is other witnesses
9 were observing other things according to their own condition and their own
10 interests. So, yes, the question has been withdrawn.
11 MR. PANTELIC: Well, I would kindly ask the witness to make just a
12 drawing of the gym in secondary school so that we can identify exactly
13 position of the witness, the other persons, and also the other persons
14 that he mentioned, Mr. Todorovic, that person Debeli, et cetera.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Mr. Usher, please.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bicic, please take a magic marker. There's a
18 black one over there. I think you can find one.
19 MR. PANTELIC: My colleague --
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
21 MR. WEINER: Prior to Mr. --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone.
24 MR. WEINER: Sorry, Your Honour. Prior to Mr. Bicic testifying,
25 he made a drawing of the school. If this would be easier for counsel to
1 use this one, which is his drawing -- however, we wind up using
2 Mr. Zecevic's, which was a professional drawing --
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Was that the secondary school or the primary school?
4 MR. PANTELIC: I don't believe that's the secondary school.
5 That's the primary school.
6 MR. WEINER: Okay. The primary school.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. He --
8 MR. PANTELIC: But, my dear friend, we are speaking about
9 secondary school.
10 MR. WEINER: Okay. Sorry.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness can go ahead. It's the gym in the
12 secondary school.
13 MR. PANTELIC: That is correct.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That was before they went to the primary
16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. We are in the middle of May. There are two
17 days; firstly, in the gym of secondary school, and then they move on to
18 the primary school gym. So now we are focused on this particular place.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bicic, I think that the other magic marker is
20 better, the one that writes in bold. So please take this magic marker,
21 and could you please draw the layout of the gym and then the entrance, the
22 hallway and the very entrance into the school. Because I really have no
23 idea what all of this is about. Just as you drew the sketch of the TO,
24 just as you drew the sketch of the primary school, and just as you gave
25 very useful instructions to my colleague regarding the sketch of the
1 primary school as compared to the heating plant, et cetera. You know
2 exactly what I'm talking about. So please draw the entrance into this
3 school and the hallway and then the gym.
4 A. Are you perhaps going to pay me a compensation for all these
6 Q. I'm sure that this Tribunal is going to pay you.
7 A. I'm not sure whether I can draw this layout.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Bicic, it's just a rough sketch really. We know
9 that you didn't spend a long time there like the time you spent at the
10 primary school, so it's just a rough sketch.
11 [Witness complies]
12 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise, Your Honours, for this delay, but I
13 would be very happy if I would have this sketch.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: It's all right, Mr. Pantelic. You know what your
15 client's defence is, so you are entitled to --
16 MR. PANTELIC: I'm thinking about the procedural economy time, you
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but we'll try to have a fair trial as much as
19 we can.
20 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
21 Could you put it on the ELMO, please, Mr. Usher.
22 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Bicic, this is the gym, isn't it, at the
23 secondary school; right?
24 A. Yes, roughly.
25 Q. You wrote the word "door" up on the top right. Is there a hall
1 that goes from that door?
2 A. I think that there is a hall there with locker rooms, something
3 like that. I passed there once as I was entering, and also when I was
4 leaving. I was not really in a position to look around that room because
5 I was rushed on my way in and on my way out.
6 Q. However, in order to enter the gym, you have to go in through a
7 main entrance, right, into this school, and to go through a hall and then
8 to get to the gym. Could you please draw a very basic sketch for me of
9 that road that you took, so to speak. Or do you simply enter the gym from
10 the street?
11 A. No. No. You enter the gym from here, but then also you enter the
12 building from up there, from the workshop of the high school, that is to
13 say, the school yard between the primary school and the secondary school,
14 and then in this direction were the workshops of the secondary school.
15 Q. Wait a second. I'll just give you another piece of paper. I
16 would be interested in having a basic sketch as to how you enter the
17 school building, how you reach the gym, and then we are going to explain
18 the gym.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: But, Mr. Pantelic, I think you are pushing the
20 witness too far. He has explained that he was rushed in and rushed out
21 and he wasn't a resident of that secondary school gym and he was
23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: And you've heard most of the time they are told not
25 to look up, keep their heads down, and things like that. I think you are
1 pushing the witness too far. Why don't we just go through with
3 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. I agree.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Like, you can ask him: Where were you standing in
5 relation to when you say whoever you want him to describe.
6 MR. PANTELIC: I agree, Your Honour. That would be a better
8 Mr. Usher, could you give me this piece of paper.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: We will mark the rough sketch, though, because it's
10 been looked at. So can we have a number, please?
11 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Just wait for the number for the rough sketch which
13 is on the ELMO.
14 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be D18/1.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: And it will be ter. It's in Serbo-Croat.
16 THE REGISTRAR: D18/1 ter.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
18 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please use the magic marker to mark
20 with an "X" the place where you were when Stevan Todorovic walked in with
21 the other men. Could you mark that on that drawing, that same drawing.
22 A. [Marks]
23 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, if you have a better pen, that would be
24 easier, because I think it's -- a marker, marker would be better, black
25 marker. Here, Mr. Usher. I have one.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please mark the "X" that you already
2 marked with this better pen.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. This is where you were in the gym; right? Thank you. Could you
5 please mark that with the letter "A." Please put the letter "A" there,
6 the letter "A."
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. That's where you were, Muhamed Bicic, marked with an "A."
9 Could you please give us the position where your brother was,
10 Hasan Bicic.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Could you please mark his position with the letter "B."
13 A. [Marks]
14 MR. PANTELIC: Just a moment, Mr. Usher.
15 Q. [Interpretation] And then who else did you mention? Ibrahim
16 Salkic? Could you please mark his position with the letter "C."
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Who else did you mention? Hadzialijagic?
19 A. You're asking me to do too much.
20 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no. Just the names that
21 you mentioned.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: It's enough for the witness to say they were all
23 inside the gym. It's enough. Why do you want him to particularise who
24 was standing where? He was not in a position to see that all the time.
25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, but still, there are several
1 persons around him, and I'm going to -- I have intention to cross-examine
2 these coming witnesses on that particular situation, and I want to make a
3 comparation [sic] of their statements. He can say "I cannot remember."
4 JUDGE MUMBA: That's the very point, because if you force
5 him - which I won't allow anyway - to mark places where he says he's not
6 sure, because of his condition and the passage of time and the way -- the
7 atmosphere in that gym, then you can't hold that against him or even
8 compare to what the other witnesses may draw, because they are bound to be
9 different, so you don't push the witness that far.
10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: So, Witness, if you're unable to mark anybody else's
12 position, don't do it.
13 MR. PANTELIC:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bicic, can you please mark the place where
15 Stevan Todorovic was? So could you please put the letter "X" where Stevan
16 Todorovic was when you saw him?
17 A. Approximately, they were standing -- how should I put this? I
18 cannot tell you very precisely now where it was exactly, but let's say it
19 was round the middle.
20 Q. Could you mark that with a number "1," please? So Stevan
21 Todorovic, number "1." What about Srecko Radovanovic, Debeli? Could you
22 please mark his position with number "2"? Srecko Radovanovic, number
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Please mark the position of Blagoje Simic with number "3"?
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Right. So the position of Blagoje Simic is marked with number
4 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, could you put it on ELMO, please?
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bicic, what was Blagoje Simic wearing then?
6 A. I said that he was wearing civilian clothes.
7 Q. Can you give us a bit more detail? Was he wearing a necktie?
8 A. Sir, you are asking me for too much. I already told you that this
9 was nine and a half years ago and that I cannot remember because I saw the
10 gentleman only once and it was precisely there and it was very briefly.
11 Q. Tell me, Mr. Bicic --
12 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, Mr. Bicic, how many times did you have
14 contact with representatives of the Prosecution since the time you gave
15 your last statement in 1998?
16 A. I don't know what you mean when you ask me. You mean here in The
17 Hague? Since I've been in The Hague?
18 Q. Before you came to The Hague and also here in The Hague. First
19 tell us before you came to The Hague.
20 A. I couldn't tell you.
21 Q. Were you in touch with them several times?
22 A. Yes, several times, but I couldn't tell you how many.
23 Q. And on those occasions, you didn't make any statements, did you?
24 A. Yes, I made a statement in 1998, if I'm not mistaken, an amendment
25 to my statement.
1 Q. And in that amendment of the 12th of March, 1998, again you didn't
2 mention Blagoje Simic, did you?
3 A. I cannot confirm that because I don't know.
4 Q. Mr. Bicic, as this is not a long statement, it's only one page
5 long, I can give it to you now with the help of the usher. Look through
6 it quickly and see whether you mention Blagoje Simic. Just fly through
8 A. I have no wings to fly with. I can only read it. As far as I can
9 see, this mainly relates to Milan Simic.
10 Q. Turn the page just to make sure, please.
11 A. Yes. Exactly as I just said.
12 Q. So, Mr. Bicic, we can agree, can we not, that in your statement of
13 the 12th of March, 1998, given to the Prosecution, you make no mention
14 whatsoever of Mr. Blagoje Simic?
15 A. In this statement, I did not mention him.
16 Q. I'm just asking you about this statement. Please, let's speed
17 things up because my colleague is waiting. Let's move on.
18 My next question, Mr. Bicic: In your statement of 1995, a part of
19 which you just read out, in reference to that specific incident in the
20 secondary school, again you make no mention of Mr. Blagoje Simic, do you?
21 A. For such a brief visit made by the gentleman who spent a couple of
22 minutes in the hall, I had no intention of mentioning it in my statement,
23 and therefore I saw that gentleman for only a couple of minutes in the
24 secondary school gym, and therefore I thought that a sighting of a couple
25 of minutes was not so important. But as things developed, I saw the
1 gentleman as an accused on photographs, and it was then that I made a
2 statement linked to what I saw, because before, I didn't know that the
3 gentleman was involved to such an extent in the events which occurred in
4 Bosanski Samac and its environs.
5 Q. This is a very interesting point. When did you see Blagoje Simic
6 first on photographs as an accused?
7 A. I think it was in a newspaper. I can't remember when.
8 Q. But what year was that?
9 A. I said I don't remember.
10 Q. I thought you didn't remember the name of the newspaper.
11 Mr. Bicic, you made your statement in February 1995, didn't you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in that statement, you mention Stevan Todorovic and Srecko
14 Radovanovic, Debeli, who were in the gym for a couple of minutes and went
15 out with their soldiers, but you did not mention Blagoje Simic.
16 A. I have just said that I thought it was unimportant, the presence
17 of a civilian, as compared to the presence of men in uniform, whom we
18 feared more than an ordinary civilian, people in civilian clothing.
19 Therefore, I saw the gentleman, Mr. Simic, at the time, together with
20 them, but I have already said that at the time I did not consider that to
21 be of particular importance for me to tell a whole story, to make a story
22 out of those two or three or maybe five minutes that the gentleman spent
23 in there.
24 Q. Yes, Mr. Bicic, but you see, you made your statement in February
25 1995, and then you saw Blagoje Simic you don't remember when. What I'm
1 interested in is when did you decide to mention him in this context? Was
2 it here in The Hague?
3 A. I mentioned so many things here in The Hague, as well as in other
4 statements earlier on, that I'm really not quite sure when I mentioned
6 Q. During your stay here in The Hague, how many times did you meet
7 with the Prosecution?
8 A. I think that that is the concern of the Prosecution and myself.
9 That is our business. And how many times, I can't tell you. Several
11 Q. In the course of those discussions, did you mention the presence
12 of Blagoje Simic in the gym of the secondary school?
13 A. Yes, in the same way that I stated here in the courtroom, very
14 briefly for a couple of minutes, and that's all.
15 Q. Could you tell me whether in those days, in 1992, Blagoje Simic
16 had a beard or a moustache when he appeared?
17 A. To be quite sincere, let me say, looking closely at Mr. Todorovic,
18 Debeli and those around them, I didn't really take note if somebody had a
19 beard or not, because for us who had been beaten up so badly by those
20 people and to see them again, to look at them could be provoking fate and
21 provoking a repetition of the same. Therefore, please try and avoid
22 reminding me again of those beatings and everything else. Out of fear
23 from all those men, who at any time of day or night could beat us again,
24 to break our bones, it was hard to look at someone straight in the face.
25 It was almost impossible. You could just peep at him, but to really look
1 someone in the face openly would mean to provoke fate as to what would
2 then happen to us. So, please, do not insist on these questions. You
3 have not experienced what we went through.
4 Q. Can we agree, then, that you are not sure that Blagoje Simic was
5 in that group?
6 A. I'm 100 per cent sure that Blagoje Simic was in that group.
7 Q. Are you 100 per cent sure that the persons next to Blagoje Simic -
8 and I have in mind in particular Srecko Radovanovic, Debeli - correspond
9 to the descriptions you gave to this Trial Chamber?
10 A. I'm quite sure that Mr. Todorovic was there, that Debeli or
11 whatever his name was, and a couple of others, maybe up to ten of them.
12 That, I'm sure of.
13 Q. And are you sure of the physical description?
14 A. You're asking too much of me. I've already told you this was nine
15 and a half years ago.
16 Q. But wait a minute. If it was ten years ago, how can you remember
17 that Blagoje Simic was in civilian clothing? So you do have some memory
18 of it.
19 A. Blagoje Simic is a citizen of the town I come from and whom I
20 would meet and see often while he was still a boy, who went to school with
21 my brother, and afterwards when he was working as a physician in the
22 health centre in Bosanski Samac, and as a fellow citizen, I would see him
23 frequently in the street. I knew his brother more intimately. So that I
24 know very well who I saw. As for these others who were from elsewhere, I
25 described them through the eyes -- through my own eyes as I saw them
2 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a second, please?
3 [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bicic. That ends my
4 cross-examination. My colleague, Mr. Zecevic will take over now.
5 Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic?
7 MS. BAEN: Actually it's not Mr. Zecevic, it's me.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Baen.
9 Cross-examined by Ms. Baen:
10 Q. Mr. Bicic, my name is Catharine Baen, and I am one of the lawyers
11 appointed to represent Mr. Milan Simic in this case. Almost all of the
12 questions I'm going to ask you in order to clarify, I'm going to ask you
13 so that you can answer with a yes or no. An example is -- or a short
14 answer. If I ask you are you wearing a blue-grey jacket today, the answer
15 is either yes or no. It's not, "Yes, and I have on a tie and I always
16 wear this jacket every day," et cetera. The reason why I'm explaining
17 this is we really want this to go quickly. If you want to explain your
18 answer later, Mr. Weiner will get up after I'm through and you can explain
19 everything that needs to be explained. Do you understand this is how
20 cross-examination works?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Mr. Bicic, you've been a hunter for many years, and I believe
23 we've heard that you were a member of a hunting club; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So it stands to reason you're very knowledgeable about weapons;
2 A. Hunting weapons, yes.
3 Q. Is your brother a hunter?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Is he knowledgeable about weapons?
6 A. You must ask him that.
7 Q. Well, you have a greater knowledge than he does of weapons, since
8 you're a hunter; correct?
9 A. Yes, when it comes to hunting weapons.
10 Q. And you testified that in addition to these legal weapons that
11 Hasan, your brother, had, that he also had these two illegal Kalashnikovs
12 that he bought; correct?
13 A. Yes, I said that.
14 Q. But he just bought these for himself; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Why did your brother, Hasan, need two Kalashnikovs?
17 A. Again, you must ask him.
18 Q. And you and your brother -- you having a greater knowledge of
19 weapons -- you and your brother never discussed the purchase of these two
20 Kalashnikovs; is that right?
21 A. No, until the day when the war broke out.
22 Q. So you didn't know that he was going to buy these two Kalashnikovs
23 until he had already done it; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you didn't feel that you needed any more weapons other than
1 the illegal ones you already had; right?
2 A. I didn't need any.
3 Q. So just the bottom line is: You -- your brother, rather, had two
4 illegal weapons, you had no illegal weapons?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Where was your brother keeping these Kalashnikovs?
7 A. Probably in a part of his own house, that is, our joint house. I
8 lived on the ground floor and my brother lived on the first floor of the
10 Q. Okay. So these guns were kept -- well, let me back up. You've
11 testified that back in April 1992 you and your brother were living in this
12 house together, and you're saying that he was keeping these weapons in
13 that house; correct?
14 A. Yes, we were living together in that house, which had two
15 entrances - and another entrance at the back over the balcony - so that
16 you didn't have to go all the way around the house if I wanted to go and
17 visit my mother and my brother, or my mother to come down and visit me and
18 my wife. So it was linked by a terrace at the back of the house. In
19 fact, it was a house with two separate entrances.
20 Q. Remember the blue jacket, Mr. Bicic. All I asked you is if you
21 were living in the same house. Okay? And I believe the answer was yes;
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you understand that possession of an automatic weapon, like a
25 Kalashnikov, was a serious criminal offence at the time under the laws of
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You didn't know that it was a serious criminal offence to possess
4 an automatic rifle of this sort?
5 A. If I may explain, then I'll give you an answer.
6 Q. No. I'm just --
7 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, if he can just ask [sic] that question and
8 he can explain it fully with Mr. Weiner, we can move fast and we can be
9 done before the lunch break.
10 Q. Sir, please, do you know whether it's against the law or not?
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.
12 MR. WEINER: She is using the word "serious criminal offence,"
13 and --
14 MS. BAEN: I'll take "serious" out.
15 MR. WEINER: -- maybe that's the problem.
16 MS. BAEN:
17 Q. Were you aware that it was a criminal offence to possess a weapon
18 of this sort, a Kalashnikov?
19 A. I can say no, because I didn't own one.
20 Q. I'm asking of your knowledge of whether or not it was against the
21 law to possess the weapon. I know you said you didn't have one. I'm
22 asking your knowledge of the law, Mr. Bicic. Was it a criminal offence;
23 yes or no?
24 A. A criminal offence was to own illegally all weapons, including a
25 small knife, never mind a rifle. But this was something that didn't
1 interest me, because I didn't have any illegal weapons.
2 Q. Okay. I understand it doesn't interest you, and you've
3 acknowledged that it is a criminal offence. So did you know that you can
4 go -- for a criminal offence for an illegal weapon, you can go to gaol;
5 right? This really isn't funny. I'm really trying to move this along.
6 A. But that doesn't interest me. I'm simply telling you I'm not
7 interested, because I did not possess an illegal weapon. You must ask the
8 person who did, if you consider that to be an illegal weapon. I don't
9 know why you are asking me about that.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Bicic, counsel is simply asking you whether you
11 knew, according to the laws at that time in force in the place where you
12 were living, whether it was a criminal offence to own a weapon in the
13 manner that the counsel is asking.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I've answered that it was a
15 criminal offence even to have a knife, never mind a firearm. But I don't
16 see why I am being examined about firearms of that kind, as I did not
17 possess an illegal weapon. So I don't see the point of me being asked
18 about it. The person who did possess such a weapon should have been asked
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Bicic, when the Trial Chamber is of the view
21 that it's not necessary for you to answer the question, the Trial Chamber
22 will say so; otherwise, please answer the questions asked by counsel.
23 MS. BAEN:
24 Q. So I think we can agree, and move on, that you know that it's a
25 criminal offence, or it was back then, to possess this sort of weapon.
1 Did you also understand that under the law at that time in order for it to
2 be a criminal offence, you merely have to possess a weapon; you do not
3 have to own it or have title to it? Is that your understanding?
4 A. Could you please explain that? I didn't quite understand.
5 Q. Possession means actually possessing; it doesn't mean that you own
6 it or have a title to it. If you have it in your possession, then that is
7 a criminal offence.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you didn't own these Kalashnikovs, but they were in your house;
10 isn't that correct? Yes or no?
11 A. Yes, in our joint house.
12 Q. Thank you. Have you ever been convicted of possessing any sort of
13 illegal weapon, Mr. Bicic?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Have you ever been convicted of any criminal offence?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You've never been convicted of any criminal offence where you were
18 sentenced to gaol time?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Let's turn briefly to talk about April 17th. Now, Mr. Bicic, the
21 month leading up to April 17th, there were armed SDA night patrols, were
22 there not?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You never heard anything about any --
25 A. Or I'm not aware of them.
1 Q. Excuse me. I'm sorry. You never heard anything in your pizzeria
2 or any of your other establishments about any rumours about any night
3 patrols anywhere?
4 A. No.
5 Q. So you never heard anything about any patrols protecting the
6 property of SDA members or you in the town of Bosanski Samac?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. On April 17th, your brother left your house briefly. Did
9 he go to Prud or the bridge over the river Bosna that day; yes or no?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you ever go to Prud or the bridge over the river Bosna on
12 April 17th?
13 A. No. No.
14 Q. Okay. So when your brother briefly left your house, he went to
15 the centre of town so that he could see what was going on; right?
16 A. Yes. About 50 metres from our house, he passed by our pizzeria
17 and stopped in front of the department store, or the artesian well, around
18 which the citizens of our town had gathered.
19 Q. And this artesian well, it's -- and I may pronounce this wrong, so
20 correct me - it's called an Arterac; is that correct?
21 A. Arterac, they called it, yes. Short for artesian well, so they
22 called it Arterac.
23 Q. I knew I was going to say it wrong. I'm from Texas, and we don't
24 really know how to pronounce the words correctly. This Arterac, it is in
25 the park, isn't it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And the mosque is also there in that area in the park too; isn't
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes. The Arterac was exactly halfway between the department store
5 and the mosque, in the park.
6 Q. And there's only one park in the centre of town; correct?
7 A. There are several parks.
8 Q. So the main park where the Arterac and the mosque are, there's
9 only one park in that area; correct?
10 A. Yes. There is one -- in front of the mosque there was an even
11 larger park, the main park in Samac. To the right of the mosque, there
12 was a smaller park, as far as the SDK building, which is just across the
13 street, across a small street. So there were three parks. One could
14 almost say that they were linked together.
15 MS. BAEN: Okay. Your Honour, I'm done with -- I'm at a natural
16 stopping point. I'm going to show him a document now, so I don't know if
17 you want to stop for the break now or not.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll have our break now and resume at 11.30
20 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Baen, you continue cross-examination.
23 MS. BAEN:
24 Q. Mr. Bicic, before the break, we were discussing the park, and your
25 final answer right before the break was that these three parks, they
1 were -- "One can almost say they were all linked together"; correct?
2 That's what you just said.
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. BAEN: May I have the usher's assistance with the document,
5 Your Honour?
6 JUDGE MUMBA: What document is this?
7 MS. BAEN: This document is entitled, "Decision on measures and
8 proceedings in connection to transfer of orders to conduct mobilisation."
9 Just for --
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Dated?
11 MS. BAEN: What's the date on it? There is no date on it, Your
13 Just so you know what is going on with this document, the OTP does
14 have a copy. They've been in possession of this documents since 1998. We
15 just got it from our co-counsels yesterday, and for whatever -- I don't
16 know what reason. But so, therefore, we are requesting an official
17 translation but we can't ask you to take it into evidence right now
18 because we don't have an English translation. So I'm just going to
19 cross-examine the witness with it right now and ask him to read it, and
20 I'm not going to ask it to be admitted since we don't have the official
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. As long as we follow the system where the
23 reading is done slowly, the interpreters can follow, so that we know what
24 it is.
25 MS. BAEN: Yes.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Can I have confirmation from the Prosecution that
2 they have seen this document?
3 MR. WEINER: We were just given this at the break. There is an
4 indication we've had it since 1998. However, we have no record of this in
5 the system. We have not seen it before today.
6 MS. BAEN: Mr. Pisarevic gave it to the OTP with a bunch of other
7 documents in 1998.
8 MR. WEINER: It was on a list of documents that -- Mr. Pisarevic
9 just gave us a list of documents that have been provided, but we have no
10 record of ever receiving it. We've never seen it before. If he claims he
11 gave it to us, I'm not doubting his word. We've never seen it before.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: You can look at it. I know it's in Serbo-Croat. So
13 let me get this clear. Are you intending to produce it at a later stage?
14 MS. BAEN: Yes, only after we get the translation, of course.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: The formal English translation.
16 MS. BAEN: Yes.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So for the purposes of this witness, we will
18 go with it in Serbo-Croat, as long as the passages referring to whatever
19 you want to ask are read out slowly.
20 MS. BAEN: Exactly, Your Honour. And should we obtain an ID
21 number at this time?
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Anything, Mr. Weiner?
23 MR. WEINER: Yes. At this point, it would just be introduced for
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Right. Can we have a number for identification
1 purposes only?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document D4/2 ter ID.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel can go ahead.
4 MS. BAEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. Bicic, in front of you in Bosnian language are two pages.
6 Now, what I'd like for you to do at this time is read the highlighted
7 portions for the Trial Chamber, but please read slowly for purposes of the
8 interpreters. On the first page, could you please read, at the top of the
9 page, the highlighted portion?
10 A. "The SDA, the Party of Democratic Action, Bosanski Samac."
11 Q. And over on the right-hand side of the page, the highlighted
12 portion at the top?
13 A. "Strictly confidential."
14 Q. Now, in the middle of the page, there are three highlighted
15 lines. Could you please read those for the Trial Chamber?
16 A. "Decision on measures and procedures related to conveying orders
17 for carrying out mobilisation."
18 Q. Could you now turn to the second page, and please read the
19 highlighted portion at the top of the second page?
20 A. "Decision on measures and procedures related to receiving orders
21 on carrying out mobilisation as well as responsible persons for carrying
22 out mobilisation."
23 Q. Could you now read in the middle of the page the highlighted
25 A. "The park is the location where people are supposed to report
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. And could you now read the bottom, right-hand corner of the page
3 and read the highlighted portion?
4 A. "President of the SDA of Bosanski Samac, Sulejman Tihic."
5 MS. BAEN: Mr. Usher, I'm finished with this document.
6 Q. Mr. Bicic, let me ask you, when your brother left the house
7 briefly on April 17th to go to the park, did he take his weapons with him,
8 his two Kalashnikovs?
9 A. No. My brother did not go to the park. He was standing in the
10 street between the artesian well and the department store.
11 MS. BAEN: Your Honour --
12 Q. Please, Mr. Bicic, really, we don't need to argue. My question
13 is: When your brother left the house, did he take his guns with him?
14 MR. WEINER: Objection. That was not her question.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I can see. Yes, I can see, because the
16 question included going to the park, which the witness has explained.
17 Anyway, the part whether he had -- he took the weapons with him, that's
18 what you want to know from the witness.
19 MS. BAEN: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to know whether the
20 weapons were taken with him.
21 A. No.
22 Q. So it's wartime, it's the peak of the psychosis on April 17th, and
23 these weapons that your brother brought to defend him with, he didn't feel
24 the need to take them with him when he left the house on April 17th; is
25 that what you're saying?
1 MR. WEINER: Objection, Your Honour.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 MR. WEINER: That's argumentative, and they're asking what his
4 brother's thoughts were. He can tell what his thoughts were, but not his
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Baen.
7 MS. BAEN: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: The objection is sustained. You've understood what
9 counsel has said.
10 MS. BAEN: I'll move on. So he didn't take his weapons.
11 Q. Mr. Bicic, it has been well established, though, in this trial
12 that by April 1992, many people were arming themselves, legally and
13 illegally, not just your brother; correct?
14 A. I don't know what you mean by "legally" and "illegally." Could
15 you please explain that to me a bit.
16 Q. I'll make the question easier. It's been well established, and
17 you testified to the fact, that many people were arming themselves;
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In fact, not only individuals were arming themselves, but there
21 were some groups that were arming themselves; isn't that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And I know you weren't a member, but the SDA, you learned, had
24 formed an armed unit; isn't that correct?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You have never heard that the SDA formed an armed unit?
2 A. I did not hear of the SDA having formed a unit. However, I did
3 hear that it established the Territorial Defence, or rather, that it was
4 the Municipal Assembly, or whoever, that appointed Mr. Fitozovic head of
5 this Territorial Defence.
6 Q. Okay. Exactly. And you bring up the name Alija Fitozovic. You
7 never heard a rumour that Alija Fitozovic had put you or your name on a
9 A. No.
10 MS. BAEN: Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm sorry.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MS. BAEN:
13 Q. Mr. Bicic, we've already talked about you being a hunter, and I'm
14 assuming that - and you can tell me if I'm wrong - that a lot of people in
15 Bosanski Samac knew that you were a hunter; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. BAEN: Mr. Usher -- actually, the registry. I tried to inform
18 you of this during the break. We'd like to present the witness with
19 document D, as in "David," 17/1 ter.
20 Yes, Mr. Usher. Thank you. Could you please put the -- if you
21 haven't already, put the Bosnian version in front of the witness and the
22 English version on the ELMO.
23 Q. Mr. Bicic, could you please take a look at the document in front
24 of you and tell me, do you see your name on this list?
25 A. Yes, I do, the penultimate name. It says "reserve," and then
1 underneath that.
2 Q. And the number next to it, 62-607, was that your telephone number
3 in April of 1992?
4 A. I've forgotten. I really can't say, because we had three or four
5 telephone numbers.
6 Q. Okay. So you don't remember whether that was your telephone
8 Do you recognise -- well, first of all, before I go any further,
9 could you read the top of the page, what the title of this document is?
10 A. "Hunters' Section," "K.dir," probably "Jasarevic, Hasan."
11 Q. Take a look at the document. Do you recognise any of the other
12 names on this list?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What names do you recognise?
15 A. All the names that are here. I know all these men.
16 Q. Were any of these men members of the SDA?
17 A. I don't know the answer to that, but I can say that Dzevad
18 Seljakovic was in the 4th Detachment.
19 Q. You know all the people on this list, and you have no idea if any
20 of them were members of the SDA; is that what you're saying?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Not one?
23 A. No, because I wasn't interested in that.
24 Q. Okay. Are any of the people on this list, were they a member of
25 the hunting club with you?
1 A. Yes. All of them were members of the hunting club.
2 Q. So all the members on this list were known hunters?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are all the individuals on this list Muslims?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were any of these people on this list in detention with you at any
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Which ones?
10 A. Pasaga Tihic, Dzevad Jusufovic, who was released immediately, a
11 day or two later. He was released from the Territorial Defence building.
12 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, for purposes of just the record, could he
13 just read out the number 2.
14 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but just so -- it's hard for me to
15 follow the names. Mr. Bicic, I'm sorry; could you mention the number and
16 then the name, please.
17 A. Number 1; number 2, but number 2 was there only for a day or two.
18 I cannot say for sure. He was released after that.
19 Q. And please, the number and the name, sir, please.
20 A. Dzevad Jusufovic, number 2; number 6, Dzevad Seljakovic; and on
21 the reserve force, Avdo Drljacic, number 2 -- I beg your pardon. Number
22 6, Dzevad Seljakovic. Not Dzevad Seljakovic; his brother. I made a
23 mistake there. His nickname was Mrki, but Dzevad was not detained.
24 Also, this Mrki, his brother who was there, he was released a day
25 or two later.
1 Q. Is that all -- excuse me, are those all the persons who were in
2 detention with you on the list? Have you named all of them now?
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. BAEN: Thank you. I'm done with that document, Mr. Usher.
5 Q. Mr. Bicic, have you ever seen that document before?
6 A. No.
7 Q. No one's ever shown it to you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. Mr. Bicic, I'd now like to direct your attention to the
10 period of your detention in the primary school. But before I do that, let
11 me just ask you one thing: You testified that during your entire stay in
12 detention, you saw Milan Simic only twice; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Just the one time he came to beat and then the five to seven days
15 later when he came back.
16 Okay. We are now in the primary school. I want to direct our
17 attention there. And several days ago, I think October 26th, you
18 testified about the position of the detainees in the gym hall at the
19 primary school. Mr. Weiner had you go through and you said that you were
20 able to recall seven different individuals and their position -- excuse
21 me, I've been corrected by my co-counsel. Eight people in the gym hall
22 and their position. We have taken the same diagram that Mr. Zecevic made
23 and provided to Mr. Weiner and we have put in the positions for eight
24 people, and we are going to ask you, for purposes of the record now, to
25 point those out and so I could --
1 MS. BAEN: If I could have the assistance again, Mr. Usher. I'm
2 keeping you busy. But if you could take this diagram to the witness,
4 Q. Okay. You have the Bosnian version in front of you, which we've
5 enlarged a little bit. We've got the English version on the ELMO. And
6 with Mr. Zecevic's expertise on these drawings, he's added the boiler
7 room, the workshop, and the windows that you described that start halfway
8 up on the wall of the entrance hall. Okay? Could you take a look at that
9 document now, Mr. Bicic.
10 Okay. You talked about the positioning of the eight detainees in
11 the gym hall, and I'm now -- I've numbered the -- or I haven't numbered.
12 Mr. Zecevic numbered the eight positions. And just to clarify the record,
13 or supplement Mr. Weiner's examination, I'd like for you to identify on
14 the diagram where exactly the detainees were positioned. And we'll just
15 start with position number "1," and you just tell me the name of the
16 person, and then we'll go that way. Okay? So who was positioned in
17 position number "1," Mr. Bicic? Isn't it -- that's Silvestar Antunovic;
18 isn't that correct?
19 A. First of all, I've already said - and I can point it out here -
20 that in this part and in this part here, that's where we were, as far as I
21 could remember, from the door and down the gym. So here, where number "8"
22 is, it was not that there was one person there; there were four or five
23 persons there. And then further on, the rest.
24 Q. Okay. That's fine. Then what I'll have you do is get a pen or
25 the thin marker from the usher and you can place the numbers where they
1 belong, to make sure it's completely accurate.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I don't think it's fair to ask the witness to
3 be completely accurate, because we've been through this problem before.
4 MS. BAEN: What I mean, Your Honour, is --
5 JUDGE MUMBA: As far as he can remember.
6 MS. BAEN: On page 31, lines 2 through 10 -- actually, it's page
7 2986 of the transcript on the 26th, he went through and said he was able
8 to remember the position of each one of them. So I went back and looked
9 at it because I know Your Honour's position on this, so it's in the
10 transcript he knows where they were. So what I'm saying is to be
11 accurate -- I mean, we made a mistake. I can't believe Mr. Zecevic made
12 a mistake, because he never makes mistakes, but we made a mistake on this
13 diagram. So I thought it would be fair to the witness to let him put the
14 numbers where they belong and he can discard or he can cross out our
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, then.
17 MS. BAEN:
18 Q. Mr. Bicic, then could you please put a number "1" where Silvestar
19 Antunovic was positioned.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. On the ELMO, yes, please. Okay. Not working? Do you have
22 another copy? Okay. Have you marked number 1?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. BAEN: Could he not write on the ELMO? Is it a problem?
25 Could he write on the ELMO the numbers? No? Okay.
1 Q. Could you mark number "2" the position where you were located.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Could you now mark a number "3" where your brother Hasan was
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Could you mark a number "4" where Ibrahim Salkic was located.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Could you mark a number "5" where Buco was located.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And by the way, this Buco, I understand, is a nickname. Could you
11 tell me what this person's full name is, Mr. Bicic, if you can remember?
12 A. Nurkic. I can't remember his first name.
13 Q. Okay. Could you mark a number "6" where Safet Hadzialijagic was
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Could you mark a number "7" where Dragan Delic was located.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Could you mark a number "8" where Omer Nalic was located.
19 A. [Marks]
20 MS. BAEN: Could we now place that on the ELMO, please? And for
21 purposes of the record, Your Honour, could it be indicated that the
22 witness has placed the eight indications on the diagram, just so that the
23 record reflects that he complied?
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
25 MS. BAEN: Thank you.
1 Q. So Mr. Bicic --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: And before -- this is a clean copy, isn't it, the
3 one you've given him to mark?
4 MS. BAEN: Yes.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: And can we have it numbered in the same group with
6 the original one, so that we don't get confused? I'm sure it will have a
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Yes, Counsel, you can proceed.
10 MS. BAEN: Thank you.
11 Q. Mr. Bicic, so this diagram accurately reflects the position of
12 these eight detainees; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So you are next to your brother and Ibrahim Salkic; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If you could take another look at this diagram, in the middle of
17 the page, where the -- there are four squares that have the letters, "A,"
18 "B," "C" and "D" on it. If you could take a look at the diagram and
19 locate that? You testified earlier that you, your brother, Perica Misic,
20 and Ibrahim Salkic were lined up against the wall opposite the entrance
21 hall during the incident with Milan Simic -- the entrance, yeah, opposite
22 the entrance during the incident with Milan Simic. Now, if you could
23 please tell me who is in position "A" and "B" and "C" and "D." Let's
24 start with "A". Who was in position "A"?
25 A. I beg your pardon. In position "A" was Perica Misic for a while.
1 Then my brother, me, Ibrahim Salkic. However --
2 Q. I'll let you explain --
3 A. Please, please, I haven't finished.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Let the witness answer.
5 MS. BAEN:
6 Q. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
7 A. However, as this beating went on, we often shifted positions. As
8 they were beating us, they were moving us from one place to another, so
9 I'm no longer sure after a few minutes where which person was, because
10 they were shooting above our heads into the glass pane that was facing the
11 heating plant. So during this beating, our positions changed. It's not
12 that we wanted to change our positions, but they were kicking us, beating
13 us, and that simply led to us being moved from one position to another.
14 Q. Okay. I understand. It's fair enough that you didn't stay in
15 this position. Let me make it more clear, then. When you first came in,
16 the position that you just testified to, that was their position;
18 A. I think so, yes.
19 Q. Mr. Bicic, what was the distance between you and the others when
20 you first came in this area for the beating?
21 A. You mean the persons that were detained like me, or are you
22 referring to the persons who were beating us and shooting and I don't know
23 what all?
24 Q. Right. I'm told by my co-counsel I haven't made this clear. You
25 said that position "A" was Perica Misic; position "B" was your brother.
1 Who was in "C" and "D" when you first came out there in the hall?
2 A. I and Salkic.
3 Q. Who was position "C"? I need to know exactly which position.
4 That's what's not being made clear, and it's probably my fault. Who was
5 in position "C," you or Salkic?
6 A. I already said I, and then Salkic.
7 Q. I know, but who was in position "C," position "C"? Either you or
8 Salkic is in one position "C."
9 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the witness is following the sequence of the
10 letters; himself in "C" and Salkic in "D."
11 MS. BAEN: I just wanted to make sure the record was clear, Your
12 Honour. I understand that's probably what he's saying, but I want to make
13 sure the record properly reflects it.
14 Q. If you could just say who was in position "C." Give me the name.
15 A. I meant it was -- I thought it was sufficient, if I said "I," that
16 I was referring to myself. You know my name, don't you?
17 Q. Yes. And then in position "D," who is in position "D"?
18 A. Ibrahim Salkic.
19 Q. Okay. Now, the distance between the four of you - Ibrahim Salkic
20 and you and Perica and your brother - when you first came into this area,
21 what was the distance between you as you were lined up?
22 A. Ten, twenty centimetres at the most.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, let me ask you another thing about this area
24 where you were standing, this entrance hall. What is the distance between
25 the entrance door to the primary school and the wall where you four were
1 lined up?
2 A. About 3 metres; 2 and a half, 3 metres. I'm not sure.
3 Q. Okay. Mr. Bicic, you testified that you were all lined up there
4 and that Milan Simic starts waving his gun around. Could you please show
5 the Trial Chamber what you mean by "waving his gun around"?
6 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, with the Court's permission, could he
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the witness can.
9 A. He was holding his pistol. It was a small automatic pistol. He
10 moved it from one to the other, pointing it in our direction. Then he
11 fired, I think, two shots.
12 MS. BAEN:
13 Q. What I'm asking you to do, just for the Trial Chamber, is to show
14 him -- show exactly his motions with the gun. When you say he was waving
15 it around, show the Trial Chamber how he was waving it around, exactly how
16 he did it.
17 A. Yes. He was pointing it at each one of us and then going back.
18 MS. BAEN: Okay. So for the purposes of the record, Your Honour,
19 could the record show that the witness had a magic marker in his right
20 hand and was waving it in front of him, back and forth.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, as counsel pleases.
22 MS. BAEN:
23 Q. Mr. Bicic, you mentioned this weapon that Mr. Simic had in his
24 hand, Mr. Milan Simic, and you said earlier it was a Scorpion. Can you
25 describe in detail about this gun, for example, the length of the barrel,
1 this sort of information, just so the Court can visualise the size of the
2 weapon and what it looks like.
3 A. When I was in the army, this pistol, or small automatic gun, as
4 they called it, a Scorpio, was carried only by officers of the JNA.
5 Q. I'm just asking for a description of the gun, actually. Not a
6 history of the gun, but a physical description of the weapon.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, if you know. If you don't know, you say so.
8 MS. BAEN: Yes.
9 A. I know, yes. It was about 30, 35 centimetres long. I'm not quite
10 sure about its length, because I never held it in my hand. It had an
11 extension made of wire which made it into like the butt of the pistol. I
12 know that it could fire individual shots and also bursts of fire. I know
13 this from the army.
14 Q. And does it have something underneath the barrel for your free
15 hand to grab so that you can aim with it?
16 A. Yes, I think below the barrel you would put in the ammunition
18 Q. Okay. Mr. Bicic, could you point out on the diagram on the ELMO,
19 with the pointer you have, where Milan Simic was standing when he was
20 waving this gun in front of you.
21 A. Milan Simic was here, at the very entrance. This is where the
22 door was. There was a window on one side of the door and another window
23 on the other side of the door.
24 MS. BAEN: Okay. May the record reflect the witness has complied
25 with that request, Your Honour.
1 Q. So Mr. Simic was waving this gun around, and you said that - I
2 don't think it was clear in the testimony the other day - there were
3 several shots, but you're saying today there were two shots. Is that what
4 you're saying today, Mr. Bicic?
5 A. Yes, I said two or more. I don't know. I'm not sure. Because of
6 the fear, I don't know whether there were more.
7 Q. Okay. So there were at least two shots; there could have been
8 more. Do you understand -- are you sure there was only one shot,
9 because -- I mean more than two shots? Because we've heard testimony
10 there was just one shot. You're saying there's either two or more.
11 You're sure? You're positive there was two or more shots?
12 A. Yes, I am positive.
13 Q. You testified that the shots went between, between, the heads of
14 you and your brother; correct? That was your testimony back last Friday,
15 I believe.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Go ahead.
18 A. And they flew through the glass of the window. Because halfway up
19 were bricks, and from then on there were windows of this heating plant, so
20 that the glass panes shattered and the glass fell on us.
21 Q. Okay. So all of the shots went between you and your brother and
22 went through the glass, as you just described. So if there was testimony
23 that there was only one shot and it went directly above your brother's
24 head, that would not be correct, would it?
25 MR. WEINER: Objection.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The objection is sustained.
2 MS. BAEN: I'll move on.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Baen, you've got the background of this
4 witness's testimony.
5 MS. BAEN: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: And in that situation, each one of them observed
7 whatever they could and heard whatever they could.
8 MS. BAEN: Yes, Your Honour, I know that, but --
9 JUDGE MUMBA: So you can't say -- you can't put the evidence of
10 another witness and challenge his or the other witness's.
11 MS. BAEN: Maybe I went about it the wrong way. I understand what
12 you're saying. But, Your Honour, it's extremely proper in
13 cross-examination to go over the inconsistencies in the testimony. If I
14 did it the wrong way, I apologise to the Trial Chamber.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it's generally correct, but not in this case,
16 in this situation.
17 MS. BAEN: Yes, Your Honour. I understand.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: You know why, because of the evidence that the
19 witness has given as to what was happening to them.
20 MS. BAEN: I understand, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
22 MS. BAEN:
23 Q. Mr. Bicic, you testified that after these gunshots, someone
24 ordered the four of you to put your hands behind your heads and to stand
25 up against the wall; right?
1 A. Yes. Before that, when the shooting stopped, they started beating
2 us. And during the beating, they showed us and ordered us the way we
3 should stand. It was not just an order; it was through the beatings we
4 were positioned in the way I showed here in this courtroom when I was
6 Q. Right. Okay. So as you're put in this -- or after you're put in
7 this position, you said that then Mr. Simic aimed his boot at you, he
8 aimed at your genitals, was your testimony, and he kicked -- at that point
9 he kicked each one of you in the genitals; isn't that correct? Yes or no?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And where was he standing - if you could please show on the
12 diagram - when he kicked you? Point out where you are, and then point out
13 where he is. Okay. Point out where you are first.
14 A. [Indicates]
15 Q. In the position number -- letter "C."
16 A. As I have already said, in the process of the beating, before they
17 leaned us against the wall, I no longer knew who was where. We were
18 simply there. I didn't dare look around, out of fear. We were standing
19 more or less in a line there, whereas Mr. Simic, with his escort, was all
20 around us. We were surrounded. Behind us were the broken glass windows.
21 We were standing there, with our legs spread apart, our hands behind our
22 heads. And then this gentleman, from a distance of 1 or 2 metres - I
23 can't say exactly - ran up to us and hit us with his boot in our genitals.
24 Q. Okay. Let me try to do a better job of going back to the
25 yes-and-no questions. Was Mr. Simic, when he kicked you, was he standing
1 right in front of you; yes or no?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, with the Court's permission, can we have
4 the witness stand and show how Mr. Simic kicked, the kicking motion,
6 JUDGE MUMBA: What's the point of all this?
7 MS. BAEN: How he kicked.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What's the point of this?
9 MS. BAEN: To show whether it was a front, forward motion or
10 whether it was side by side or whether it was from behind him, just to
11 show exactly how, as he was standing there, the defendant kicked him.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What is the point of this?
13 MS. BAEN: The point?
14 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the point of it, yes.
15 MS. BAEN: To supplement his testimony or to clarify exactly how
16 he was kicked.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think it's necessary.
18 MS. BAEN: You're denying --
19 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think it's necessary.
20 MS. BAEN: So you're denying my request to have the witness
21 demonstrate the kick?
22 JUDGE MUMBA: No.
23 MS. BAEN: Okay. May I ask him questions, of course, about it?
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can.
25 Q. Mr. Bicic, when Mr. Milan Simic was standing in front of you and
1 he kicked you, did he kick you in a straightforward motion, from down to
3 A. He was, as I was saying, about a metre and a half away from me,
4 something like that, so he made a step with his left foot and kicked me
5 with his right foot, directly in the area of the genitals. However, I
6 noticed this, so I bent down a little so that I received one of those
7 blows above my genitals.
8 Q. I understand that.
9 A. While -- I'd like to clarify everything, because this wasn't just
10 one blow. There were two or three blows, whereas these blows were falling
11 mostly in the area of my stomach and thighs.
12 Q. Okay. So he kicked you. He was standing right in front of you,
13 and you said he kicked you three times is what you testified to the other
14 day; isn't that correct? Yes or no?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And all three times he missed your genitals; isn't that correct?
17 A. Not absolutely. Once he hit my thigh, but partly my genitals as
18 well, as I said, and then another time. Was it the first or the second, I
19 can't say now. I can't ascertain with certainty which was the first time,
20 which was the second. When I bent down, I leaned forward and so I got the
21 third blow in my stomach, which means that one of the first two blows did
22 hit me partly in my genitals and partly in my upper leg or thigh.
23 Q. Mr. Bicic, you testified last October 26, your quote -- just as a
24 quote, "Luckily, he hit me above my sex organs." So what I'm asking you
25 is all three times he kicked you, he hit you above your sex organs. You
1 didn't mention anything last Friday about him hitting your genitals, did
2 you? If you want to revise that now to clarify, then that's fine.
3 A. I'm saying luckily, on that occasion, I can say that he didn't hit
4 me on my genitals.
5 Q. So then he did later?
6 A. Because it was later he hit my right thigh and partly my genitals,
7 but the strength of that blow was probably much smaller than the time he
8 hit me and caused a large swelling the size of a fist.
9 Q. We know about your medical problems. I'm just asking about where
10 he kicked you, to clarify it, on every single kick. So you're saying on
11 each kick -- well, the first one he missed, and then you're saying the
12 second one he hit your thigh and your genitals; that's correct? And we
13 can move on if that's correct.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. So you stated that after you were released, that you talked
16 to some of your friends, and because of your medical problem, you went to
17 see a doctor or a specialist; isn't that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember the doctor's name or where his office was?
20 A. That doctor used to work in Slavonski Brod in the general hospital
21 there. What his name was, I couldn't tell you.
22 Q. Okay. Do you remember the names of any of the friends you talked
23 to who suggested you go to this specialist?
24 A. Yes. My brother, and his friend Pero, and the brother of this
1 Q. Okay. And have you seen any doctors for this problem since you
2 saw the specialist?
3 A. Yes, shortly after that, about some 20 days later, I was
4 transferred to Istria, where my mother, wife, and daughter were. They
5 were accommodated there. And I met a surgeon there.
6 Q. What was his name?
7 A. His name was Sinisa. I can't remember his surname now.
8 Unfortunately, he died a couple of years ago from cancer.
9 Q. Okay. Mr. Simic, moving on -- or we are trying to close this
10 topic or I am -- excuse me, Mr. Bicic, Mr. Simic, you said, kicked you, at
11 least several times, and while he did this, he had his Scorpion in one
12 hand and he had an iron bar in the other hand; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So he had the gun in his right hand and he had the bar in his left
15 hand; is that correct?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. Well, so it was the opposite? The gun was in his left hand
18 and the bar was in his right hand?
19 A. At that moment, yes, because he switched his pistol to his left
20 hand and one of his escorts gave him the bar, which he held in his right
22 Q. Can you show the Chamber how he held these two items in his hand
23 when he kicked you - just sitting there - to show how he held them when he
24 kicked you? The pointer can be the bar and the marker can be the gun, the
1 A. In his left hand he held, like that, downward, the Scorpion, and
2 in his right hand, roughly in this position, turned upwards, with his arm
3 raised, he was holding the bar.
4 Q. So one arm was raised and the other one was down? The one with
5 the bar in it was down; is that correct? Excuse me, the opposite. The
6 hand with the gun was down, and the hand with the bar was up; is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And while he was doing all of this stuff to you four, these
10 beatings and kickings, did you ever have any idea that he might be drunk?
11 A. You're asking me too much. I was afraid.
12 Q. I'm just asking you, yes or no, if you had any idea he was drunk.
13 If the answer is no, then it's no. If you were afraid and -- I understand
14 if you're afraid and you therefore you didn't notice whether he was drunk,
15 then it's -- no is fine.
16 A. I can answer by saying I don't know.
17 Q. Okay. Fair enough. After the beatings, you were brought back to
18 the gym hall and Milan and escorts left, and you said that five to seven
19 days later, Milan returned to the -- Milan Simic returned to the school.
20 So I want to direct your attention to this second incident. You testified
21 that Milan, your brother, and Perica Misic were gone for several hours
22 that night; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you were worried while they were gone, but when your brother
25 and Perica Misic returned, your brother told you what happened. He told
1 you that Milan was -- he gave them food; right?
2 A. Yes. My brother told me that Milan came with the intention of
3 apologising to my brother, to Perica, and myself.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... if you'll just answer the
5 question I asked you, we'll get there, we will move through this quickly
6 and we will be done by lunch. Okay. He gave them food and they also
7 drank beer, didn't they? Yes or no?
8 A. Yes. That's what my brother told me.
9 Q. Right. And he was nice to them, your brother told you.
10 A. Yes, on that occasion he was nice.
11 Q. And your brother also told you that they had friendly
12 conversation; yes or no?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And your brother also told you that Milan Simic had heard that
15 your brother would be exchanged; isn't that correct? Yes or no?
16 A. I would answer differently, if I may, not just with a yes or a no.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... okay. Mr. Weiner, I promise
18 you, will give you a chance to fully explain, but what I'm asking you
19 right now - and it is yes or no - did your brother tell you that he was
20 going to be exchanged, that he was told that he was going to be exchanged;
21 yes or no?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And Mr. Simic apologised, as you started to explain earlier, he
24 apologised to your brother and Perica; isn't that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So Milan Simic beat the four of you, but he only apologised to
2 Perica Misic and your brother Hasan Bicic; isn't that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Don't you think that's sort of strange?
5 MR. WEINER: Objection.
6 MS. BAEN: He can answer.
7 MR. WEINER: Objection, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Why?
9 MR. WEINER: She is asking this witness whether he thinks Milan
10 Simic's conduct is strange.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, no. His own impression of what
13 MS. BAEN: Yes. That's exactly what I'm asking.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: So the witness can answer that.
15 A. Could you please repeat your question once again?
16 MS. BAEN:
17 Q. Milan Simic beat the four of you, but he only came to apologise to
18 your brother and Perica Misic. Don't you think that that is strange? He
19 didn't apologise to you; he didn't apologise to your friend Ibrahim
21 A. Personally not, but he said to my brother and Perica that he
22 apologised to us too.
23 Q. Okay. Let's talk about Ibrahim Salkic. He's a very good friend
24 of yours and your brother's; isn't that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And he goes by the nickname Ibela?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How long have you and Ibela been friends?
4 A. Well, practically from early childhood.
5 Q. And he's your best friend; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was he ever good friends with Milan Simic?
8 A. I don't know that. However, since Mr. Simic often came to our
9 pizzeria, Ibela also often came to the pizzeria and they would always
10 stand by the bar. They would usually be in that standing area. How
11 friendly they were, I don't know, but they would talk.
12 Q. Okay. I'm sure they talked. It was a small town. I'm from a
13 small town, and I understand how everybody knows everybody. My question
14 is: Were they good friends, like you and Ibela? Milan Simic and Ibela,
15 were they good friends, close, intimate friends?
16 A. I would say that they were not that close, intimate friends.
17 Q. Did they work together?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Well, he's your best -- Ibela is your best friend. You never
20 heard that he and Milan Simic worked together?
21 A. No, no. I heard that Perica, while he was president of the
22 municipality, and Milan, who also did something at the municipality, that
23 they worked together in a way. I don't know. But I don't know about
24 Ibela and Simic.
25 Q. Okay. How often did you and Ibela see each other and talk to each
1 other before the events of April 1992?
2 A. Well, in that period, not that often because I was very busy with
3 my restaurants and the machines that were rented out in our municipality
4 and in the neighbourhood, so often I had to go out with repairmen to have
5 these machines repaired, serviced.
6 Q. Okay. Mr. Bicic. I understand you were very busy. My question
7 is: How often did you see him? And you said not so often; okay? Is that
8 correct? We can just keep moving.
9 A. Well, not that often.
10 Q. Okay. And then you were detained together, you've testified, and
11 positioned next to each other in the gym hall of the primary school, and
12 then you were released the first part of September, and sometime
13 thereafter Ibela was released. After you were both released, how often
14 did you and Ibela talk to each other?
15 A. In that period, when I was exchanged, for a while I was in Istria
16 and then I went to Germany with my family. That's where I live now as
17 well. A few years later Ibela got in touch with me.
18 Q. Where?
19 A. Also when he came to Germany. So we lived in two different towns
20 about 600 kilometres away from each other, perhaps even more than that.
21 So in that period we could see each other only when he was in transit,
22 when he was travelling to Bosnia. That would be for a few hours, in order
23 to get a rest, to get something to eat, and then he would continue. That
24 is to say, that in the period starting with our exchange, or rather, my
25 exchange, until that period when Ibela left Germany, we met two or three
1 times, but, as I said, only briefly.
2 Q. Okay. Did you have an occasion to -- so you did see him, Ibela,
3 the first year or two after he was exchanged in Germany. Let me ask you
4 this: You're aware that your best friend has made a couple of formal
5 statements to the Office of the Prosecutor, are you not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In fact, he made one in February, the same -- 1995, the same month
8 as you, and then he also made one during the same time period as you and
9 your brother, in Germany, in March 1998; isn't that correct?
10 A. I don't know about that.
11 Q. Did your brother make a statement in 1995?
12 A. No. No, I don't think so.
13 Q. Let me ask you about this March 1998 statement. Where was this
14 conducted, the taking of your statement in March 1998?
15 A. My statement was taken in my apartment in Germany.
16 Q. Who was there?
17 A. Those who I gave the statement to were present.
18 Q. Who were those persons you gave the statement to?
19 A. I can't remember the names.
20 Q. How many individuals were there from the OTP?
21 A. I think three, three persons.
22 Q. And I see on the front of your statement that there it says --
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MS. BAEN:
25 Q. It says at the bottom, on the front of your statement, "Names of
1 all persons present during the interview," and there's been a redacted
2 name. It shows that there was an interview, Tore Soldal, interpreter
3 Tanja Novak, and then there's a name redacted at the bottom. Do you have
4 any idea who that might have been who was present, whose name was
6 A. No.
7 Q. So you were -- so your brother was living in the same place as you
8 at that time, Germany; right?
9 A. No, he didn't live there. At that time he came to visit our
10 mother and me.
11 Q. That's right. He came to visit you and your mom.
12 All right. You were aware that Milan Simic voluntarily
13 surrendered in February, late February 1998, isn't that correct, right
14 before you gave your statement?
15 A. I think so, yes.
16 Q. And immediately thereafter, the OTP, Office of the Prosecutor,
17 contacted you and your brother, asking that you add some information about
18 Milan Simic; isn't that correct?
19 A. The Office of the Prosecutor contacted me in order for me to
20 provide details about Milan Simic.
21 Q. Exactly. Okay. I want to talk to you -- and I'm going to try to
22 move this along, if you can help me. Mr. Pantelic has talked a lot about
23 your 1995 statement, and I want to ask you a couple of questions about it
24 too, but I want to try to move through how the statement was taken, for
25 purposes of the record, to show that it was voluntary.
1 MS. BAEN: If I could have the usher's assistance in presenting
2 the statement to the witness, I'd appreciate it, the 1995 statement. We
3 have it right here.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: They haven't been produced.
5 MS. BAEN: No, we haven't provided them. We've got them here.
6 I'm sorry.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. -- they are with counsel.
8 MR. WEINER: Could these at least be marked for identification,
9 because we're constantly referring to them.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me clarify that with counsel. These are the two
11 statements recorded by the Office of the Prosecutor?
12 MS. BAEN: This is the 1995 statement that Mr. Pantelic was
13 talking about. There's only one 1995 statement.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: So that's the one you are -- you want to discuss?
15 MS. BAEN: Exactly. We're not offering it into evidence; we're
16 just cross-examining him with --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There is no harm in having them marked for
18 identification. Then they can be kept by the Registry.
19 MR. WEINER: So we can just refer to them. I'm not asking that
20 they be placed in evidence either.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number for the 1995 statement
22 made by the witness to the Office of the Prosecutor, just for
23 identification, please.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D5/2 ter ID, and D5/2, for the
25 English, ID.
1 MS. BAEN: Thank you.
2 Q. Mr. Bicic, you have --
3 MS. BAEN: If you could put the English on the ELMO and then the
4 Bosnian in front of him, 1995.
5 Q. Mr. Bicic, you have a document in front of you. There's an
6 English version on the ELMO. I've given you the Bosnian version that you
7 can more easily follow the questions. If you need your glasses, please,
8 you can go ahead and put them on. I would like for you to look at the
9 front page. Across the top it says "ICTY," or "International Criminal
10 Tribunal for the prosecution of persons responsible for serious violations
11 of international law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia
12 since 1991." It does say that at the top of the page, does it not?
13 A. Just one thing: I forgot my glasses at home. I haven't brought
14 them at all.
15 Q. You can't read anything? We requested --
16 A. I can read, but you said that I should put my glasses on, and I
17 was just trying to say that I can't put them on because they're not here.
18 Q. Okay. Well, thank you. I wasn't ordering you to put your glasses
19 on; just if you needed them, it was permissible. Okay. Thank you.
20 In the middle of the page, it says "witness statement," and then
21 also down in the middle of the page it has the dates of the interview,
22 February 22nd through the 24th, 1995; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recognise this as your statement? Take a look at it if you
25 need to. On the front page, you'll see, of the English version, at the
1 bottom right, it's been signed and initialed. If you want to look at the
2 English version also and identify your signature, please, sir. Is this
3 your statement and is that your signature and initials, on the English
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If you'll flip through the English version, you can see that each
7 page is initialed, please. And I ask you if you accept those as your
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If you turn to the last page of the statement, the witness
11 acknowledgement, it's dated February 24th, 1995; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you signed this acknowledgement on that date and you accept
14 that this signature is yours; isn't that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. BAEN: It's the next page. There's one other page after that,
17 Mr. Usher.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we make sure that we have the same number of
20 MS. BAEN: Yes. I want to make sure - excuse me - that we have
21 the right -- I have the witness acknowledgement. I don't know why
22 it's -- if we can supplement the acknowledgement, make sure he can identify
23 that as his signature.
24 Q. Is that your signature?
25 A. Yes. Up here, this is my signature.
1 MS. BAEN: Could you please put it on the ELMO. Thank you.
2 Q. Now, it's also true that this statement you made, you made it
3 voluntarily and you told the truth; isn't that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. No pressure was put on you, and you spoke freely and you were not
6 hurried; is that correct?
7 A. Nobody rushed me, and I gave the statement voluntarily.
8 Q. And you spent three days with these investigators: the 22nd, the
9 23rd, and the 24th of February, 1995. Could you please tell me how many
10 hours you spent on all three of those days, roughly, because I know this
11 was a while ago. Day one, how many hours did you spend?
12 A. I couldn't say.
13 Q. Was it one hour, or was it more like four or five hours, six or
14 seven? Just a general idea. I know it was a long time ago.
15 A. Well, something like that. Well, let's say four or five hours
17 Q. And was it like that also on day two and day three, four or five
19 A. Well, something like that. Sometimes a bit less. Around that.
20 Q. And this statement was made about three years after the events of
21 1992, and these events were fresher in your mind, obviously, back then; is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes, fresher. But giving these statements, just like now,
24 answering these questions, either yours or from the gentleman from the
25 other side, do remind a person and make him a bit nervous. Going back to
1 that period is not really easy, re-experiencing all these things.
2 Q. I understand. Your statement was approximately 13 pages long and
3 full of detail; isn't that correct? Look to see how many pages there are
4 to confirm that, please. The statement is in front of you.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Baen, I'm wondering why we are going in these
6 minute details, because you asked him to identify his signatures on all
7 the pages, which he did. Why should we go --
8 MS. BAEN: I'm following --
9 JUDGE MUMBA: -- talking pages and all that?
10 MS. BAEN: I'm sorry.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we go to the salient points?
12 MS. BAEN: I have two more questions for the foundation. I'm
13 trying to follow the law of -- common law of the United States and also
14 here --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We -- yes, we normally don't do that here,
16 because we don't want to keep the witnesses in the box unnecessarily too
18 MS. BAEN: Okay. I'll move on.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: So he has identified his signature. You move along
20 to what points you want to make out of the statement.
21 MS. BAEN: We'll move on. If he could just answer the last
22 question, then I'll gladly move on, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Then proceed.
24 MS. BAEN:
25 Q. Mr. Bicic, if you look at the statement, it's 13 pages long?
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Baen --
2 MS. BAEN: I thought he could answer the last question.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: No.
4 MS. BAEN: Oh, he can't?
5 JUDGE MUMBA: He is not answering about the number of pages. I've
6 told you that is not necessary.
7 MS. BAEN: Okay. I misunderstood, Your Honour. I'm sorry.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: I hope so.
9 MS. BAEN:
10 Q. Mr. Bicic, could you please turn to -- in the Bosnian version,
11 could you turn to page 9, the last paragraph, the last sentence, the
12 last --
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 MS. BAEN:
15 Q. -- where the beginning of the sentence says, "He came," referring
16 to Milan Simic. Could you start reading there, and read --
17 MS. BAEN: And also in the English, the English version, Your
18 Honour, it's page 9 of this statement, the last paragraph, the second
20 Q. Mr. Bicic, have you located in the Bosnian version where it
21 says -- talks about Milan Simic, 34, black hair, tall, slender, and he
22 would come to the camp? If you could start reading there and read that
23 sentence out loud for the Chamber.
24 A. "He would come to the camp with his bodyguards in mid-June, and
25 called out me, my brother, and Perica Misic. He took us to a corridor
1 between the sports hall and the burnt area, where he severely beat us,
2 together with his bodyguards."
3 Q. Could you go ahead and read the next two sentences out loud for
4 the Trial Chamber.
5 A. Which sentences do you mean actually?
6 Q. The next sentence after the one you just read.
7 A. "After that beating, I could not urinate for days, and the area
8 above my genitals was swollen as big as a fist." Should I go on reading?
9 Q. The next sentence, please. Read the next sentence.
10 A. "It healed when I got out of camp."
11 Q. Okay. So you stated in your statement in 1995 that only you, your
12 brother, and Perica Misic were beaten by Milan Simic on that one occasion
13 in the primary school; isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You did not say anything about Ibrahim Salkic being beaten by
16 Milan Simic on that occasion or any other occasion; yes or no?
17 A. I probably didn't say on that occasion. I don't know why. And
18 then after all of that, perhaps it was the interview itself that reminded
19 me of the pain that was still fresh in my mind and the other events. I
20 just -- I just omitted to mention Salkic in all of that.
21 Q. Okay. My question - yes or no - you omitted, didn't mention,
22 anywhere your best friend, Ibrahim Salkic, in your statement in 1995? Yes
23 or no?
24 A. Yes, I omitted to mention him here.
25 Q. And the OTP never heard anything from you about Ibrahim Salkic
1 being beaten until you gave your statement in 1998?
2 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I was just taking it in and wondering how the
4 witness could know that the OTP had never heard that, whether it included
5 even from other people, other witnesses, which is not correct.
6 MS. BAEN: No, Your Honour.
7 Q. I can leave it at that, you didn't mention it in your 1995
8 statement, and move on to one more topic and then we are done.
9 Mr. Bicic, you're involved in a lawsuit in the United States, are
10 you not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And this lawsuit you and several others have filed against a
13 person named Nikola Vukovic; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. BAEN: Yes. You can go, please. The usher, you can go. I'm
17 Q. And Kemal Mesinovic, who lives in the United States, contacted you
18 in early 1998 to let you know he was filing this lawsuit to recover money
19 and asked if you would join him, and you joined in the lawsuit in
20 September 1999; is that correct?
21 A. No, no. Kemal Mesinovic addressed me with a request as to whether
22 I would be willing to testify that Vukovic, who altered his documents so
23 that he was now called Nikolic and then managed to get to Germany with
24 these false papers -- I'm sorry, to the United States - that's what I
25 meant - that's where they recognised him. That's where he was recognised
1 by persons who were also in camps. And they accused him of the crimes
2 that he committed in those camps. Miki was his nickname. So I mentioned
3 him in the statement as Miki.
4 Q. My question: Did you join in the lawsuit; yes or no?
5 A. I joined in the sense of testifying against him, not being
6 familiar with the laws of the United States, namely that thereby I became
7 one of the parties that was filing the lawsuit. However, I mostly talked
8 to people who came to see me through some unofficial interpreters. I
9 talked to them in the German language, and my German is not all that
10 good -- or interpretation from German into English -- or, rather, from
11 English into German was carried out.
12 MS. BAEN: I don't want to cut him off. I just asked - yes or
13 no - did he join the lawsuit, and then I was going to present --
14 JUDGE MUMBA: He just wanted to make it clear in what capacity,
15 because, as he said, he didn't know the U.S.A. laws.
16 MS. BAEN: I understand that, but he did confirm what I was trying
17 to get him to confirm, that he did become a party, in his answer, and I
18 have the petition here with his name as a party also. I understand it's
19 not in his language.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the point of all this?
21 MS. BAEN: Right now, Your Honour, I'd like to offer, because it's
22 proper under Rule 94 for purposes of judicial notice, that you take
23 judicial notice of the formal complaint that is filed in the United States
24 District Court in Georgia where four different people filed a lawsuit
25 against Mr. Vukovic, including Mr. Bicic, and that he testified in that
1 trial last week, and it's proper that you take judicial notice, and I'd
2 like to offer the document.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: What for? I know we can take judicial notice, but
4 what for? What's the relevance in this case?
5 MS. BAEN: Because -- are you going to take judicial notice? Are
6 you telling me you will take judicial notice of the document?
7 JUDGE MUMBA: I want to know the relevance.
8 MS. BAEN: The relevance is there are 33 pages full of detail at
9 the primary school of all the beatings, including Vukovic and others, and
10 nowhere in that document is Mr. Milan Simic mentioned, the whole time he
11 was at the primary school. And that's it, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Fine.
13 MS. BAEN: So are you -- will you take judicial notice under Rule
14 94? And then I have two more questions, and I'm done.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. That is evidence which you say was given in
16 the courtroom?
17 MS. BAEN: No, Your Honour. It's not the evidence. It is the
18 official document that is filed in the U.S. district court by this man and
19 three other plaintiffs, which was given to me by the Office of the
21 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. So it's the formal complaint?
22 MS. BAEN: Yes. It is a formal, official court document, which is
23 the formal complaint.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Unless we have a copy of it --
25 MS. BAEN: We have all the copies ready.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes.
2 Yes, Mr. Weiner?
3 MR. WEINER: I would just want to clarify. It is not a statement
4 of this witness. It's the complaint, which -- the case was initiated, not
5 by this witness, by someone else in another country, strictly a complaint.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because I wanted more clarification about
7 that. Usually, if it's a formal complaint, obviously it must have been
8 drawn out -- drawn up by an attorney.
9 MS. BAEN: Yes.
10 MR. WEINER: Yes.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: In which case, it's not the statement of this
13 MS. BAEN: It is not a statement. It is a formal court document
14 that's been sworn and filed.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Then we don't need it, because you can only attack
16 him on his own statement. We don't need that.
17 MS. BAEN: I was just asking the Court to take judicial notice of
18 the document. I wasn't going to be cross-examining him on it. If that's
19 the Court's position, that you don't want to take judicial notice, that's
21 JUDGE MUMBA: It's not relevant.
22 MS. BAEN: He testified about the beatings at the primary school,
23 Your Honour. I think it's very relevant, respectfully, to -- for purposes
24 of my client.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Fine.
1 Anything else, Mr. Prosecutor? Anything else? Did you want to
2 comment on what counsel said?
3 MR. WEINER: I was going to say, if it's testimony, if they want
4 to use it, that's one thing. But this --
5 JUDGE MUMBA: There is no harm in bringing it to the attention of
6 the Trial Chamber. There is no problem taking judicial notice, except
7 that I'm saying it may not be relevant.
8 MS. BAEN: That's perfect. And I see it's past 1.00. But that
9 does raise an issue. His testimony has been requested -- Mr. Bicic's
10 testimony, I'm told, in the United States, has been requested by the
11 Office of the Prosecutor, and us as well, the day that he testified. It
12 won't be ready, the court reporter said, until Friday. So I don't think
13 we are going to have any questions for him, but I just wanted to put on
14 the record that we had requested it and it won't be ready until Friday,
15 but --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can -- for your own purposes.
17 MS. BAEN: That's it.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: You are through with cross-examination?
19 MS. BAEN: I have maybe a couple more questions.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: It's after 1.00, so we will resume at 15.30 hours.
21 MS. BAEN: Okay. Yeah. Thank you.
22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 3.31 p.m.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Baen.
3 MS. BAEN: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time we would like to
4 provide the Chamber with this petition that we're talking about in the
5 lawsuit that this witness and three other persons filed in the United
6 States regarding the events at the primary school, and I believe the Court
7 had agreed to take judicial notice, I believe, and so we're providing the
8 documents at this time.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is on their feet.
10 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we have no objection to taking judicial
11 notice that there is, in fact, a lawsuit in the United States, that he is
12 part of this lawsuit. However, the information within the complaint
13 doesn't fall under Rule 94 for judicial notice. Judicial notice, Rule 94,
14 section A, says: "A Trial Chamber shall not require proof of facts of
15 common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof."
16 In paragraph B, the Court further states, in its pertinent part:
17 "After hearing the parties, the Court may decide to take judicial notice
18 of adjudicated facts or documentary evidence from other proceedings of the
19 Tribunal relating to matters" --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel slow down, please.
21 MR. WEINER: I'm sorry -- "may take judicial notice of adjudicated
22 facts or documentary evidence from other proceedings of the Tribunal
23 relating to matters at issue in the current proceedings."
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
25 MR. WEINER: To take judicial notice of all the facts in that
1 statement of facts and the complaint really becomes a 94 bis type
2 situation, where you're trying to submit evidence as opposed to utilise
3 witness testimony. With regard to the fact that he is part of a suit,
4 they filed suit, we have no problem taking judicial notice of that. But
5 however many pages that complaint is, that information, I think, is beyond
6 the Rule of judicial notice.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. This is why I was asking counsel, because I'm
8 sure Ms. Baen has read these Rules and she knows what it is limited to.
9 MS. BAEN: I do. And if I may respond, for purpose of the record,
10 Your Honour, I'm not referring -- I've read Rule 94 and the rest of the
11 Rules many times here in the Tribunal. I'm not referring to the latter
12 part of the Rule. I'm referring to -- which deals with proceedings,
13 taking judicial notice of proceedings in Court, proceedings here. I'm
14 talking about the first part of the Rule that talks about "common
15 knowledge," and certainly an official document that is filed in a federal
16 district court in the United States of America is something that could be
17 considered to be common knowledge. You can find it on the Internet, for
18 example. I mean, the whole world -- this is an official document filed by
19 this witness and three other persons, so --
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The point is, we did understand how the
21 witness came into this, and he has explained, and as far as the Trial
22 Chamber is concerned, it really doesn't matter what proceedings are going
23 on in that other country and what they are about and what the focus is
25 MS. BAEN: The focus is what happened at the primary school, which
1 is exactly what we're focused on for our client.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, no, no. Because those are different
3 proceedings. Are they criminal proceedings?
4 MS. BAEN: No. They're just like - I hate to use an
5 example - just like O.J. Simpson. There's a criminal case arising out of
6 the same -- there's a civil case and a criminal case arising out of the
7 same facts.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: No, I don't agree. Whatever the purpose is, you can
9 introduce your documents, but we are all agreed that we are aware that
10 these are proceedings taking place in whatever country and whatever -- for
11 whatever purpose.
12 MS. BAEN: So you're denying --
13 JUDGE MUMBA: We acknowledge that.
14 MS. BAEN: Okay. So you're denying admission of this document.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. You can have them admitted, for
16 whatever they are worth, but they are not relevant.
17 MS. BAEN: Okay. That's all I'm asking for, is that they be
18 admitted into evidence. That's fine.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.
20 MR. WEINER: Once again, we just object to that, because those
21 facts -- the allegations in that are not part of the common knowledge.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes. I see the point you are making. I know
23 what the Rules mean. I see the point the Defence counsel is making, and
24 I'm sure they've seen that as far as the Trial Chamber is concerned as to
25 what they will do with those documents, how much weight to attach to them,
1 is a matter that I'm sure the Defence counsel is aware from the
2 discussions that we've been going through.
3 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: And I wouldn't like the witness to think that what
5 was said there would have an effect on these proceedings.
6 MS. BAEN: We would too, Your Honour. Mr. Bicic -- here are the
7 documents. Would the usher take the documents?
8 JUDGE MUMBA: If I may ask, Ms. Baen, these proceedings are still
9 going on?
10 MS. BAEN: No, Your Honour, they are not going on. What happened
11 was -- and I've talked to all the lawyers involved in this lawsuit; I'm
12 very familiar with what's going on. There is testimony last Monday --
13 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. My question is: Are they still going on?
14 Are they completed?
15 MS. BAEN: Well, that's a tricky question because the defendant
16 did not show up for trial, so ...
17 JUDGE MUMBA: The defendant is what?
18 MS. BAEN: The defendant in the civil case did not appear for
19 trial, so what happened was the judge decided to go ahead and let the
20 plaintiffs testify, in person and over the phone, which is what Mr. Bicic
21 did last Tuesday. So what happened is the case is not over with yet
22 because the judge hasn't ruled. What the judge has to make the decision
23 now is whether or not to make a ruling on the merits of the case or to
24 enter a default judgement, which means that he enters judgement and says,
25 "I determine that the medical evidence and all the other damages" --
1 JUDGE MUMBA: I just want to know the status of the proceedings.
2 MS. BAEN: It's not over.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Fine.
4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I would like to add that it's my understanding as
5 well that the defendant, Mr. Vukovic, has left the country, the United
6 States, has no assets there, and also did not appoint any Defence
8 MS. BAEN: Actually, Your Honour, respectfully, that's true. He
9 did have Defence counsel. His Defence counsel withdrew Thursday before
10 the trial started because he understood that his client had left the
11 country and was not going to appear for trial. So that's what happened.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: That clears up the status of these proceedings.
13 MS. BAEN: Okay.
14 Q. Mr. Bicic, I have one more question about this lawsuit and then we
15 are going to move on to one other topic, and then you don't have to hear
16 from me any more. Did you provide any medical information or records
17 about this medical problem --
18 MS. BAEN: Oh, the microphones.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the answer is given, could we have the
20 number, please?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D6/2.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
23 MS. BAEN:
24 Q. Mr. Bicic, for this lawsuit in the United States that was filed
25 and that you testified in, did you provide your lawyers with any
1 medical -- or the Court, rather, with any medical records concerning the
2 problem that you had, the swelling above your genital area?
3 A. No. I don't remember providing anything.
4 Q. Did you provide any medical records at all?
5 A. I personally did not.
6 Q. Have any medical records been provided to the Court in this
7 lawsuit; yes or no?
8 A. I don't know that, because I was asked but they had to talk
9 directly to my family doctor in Germany, who takes care of me and my
10 family, so that all these things are going through him. So if they
11 addressed him, and it is not in my power to ask someone to provide
12 anything like that.
13 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, Mr. Bicic, I'd like to very briefly
14 turn your attention back to your 1995 statement that you made to the OTP.
15 Earlier you read to the Chamber the portion of your 1995 statement that
16 dealt with the incident of Milan Simic, those four sentences you read
17 earlier. There was no mention of Ibrahim Salkic, was there; yes or no?
18 A. I did not mention him.
19 Q. But you did testify, and it was in your statement, that Milan
20 Simic beat you, your brother, and Perica Misic; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. There was absolutely no mention anywhere in your 1995 statement
23 that Milan Simic fired any gunshots, was there; yes or no?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Then years go by, and you testify that Milan Simic -- you knew
1 that he voluntarily surrendered himself here in late February 1998 and
2 that immediately thereafter, someone from the OTP contacted you. And the
3 OTP contacted you solely for the purpose of giving more details about the
4 incident with Milan Simic; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. BAEN: Mr. Usher, if I could have your assistance in
7 presenting the 1998 statement in front of Mr. Bicic with, of course, the
8 English on the ELMO and the Bosnian version in front of him. Turn to the
9 next page -- the second page, Mr. Usher.
10 Q. And, Mr. Bicic, could you turn to page 2, the body of the
11 statement. Mr. Bicic, could you identify and make sure your signature is
12 on the statement, because we haven't looked at this one yet. That's all I
13 want to know. Is this -- do you recognise this to be your statement,
14 Mr. Bicic?
15 A. I do not see any signature. As for the statement, it's quite
16 possibly mine, but there is no signature.
17 Q. The signature is not going to be on the Bosnian version, so why
18 don't you look at the Bosnian version and see if you can identify that and
19 see if that looks like your statement. Do you recognise it?
20 A. My signature is not here either.
21 Q. I'm asking you to identify it. Maybe the OTP can provide a copy
22 that they say is his statement of the 1998 --
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Is there -- may I ask the Prosecution, is there any
24 statement that was 1998 that was signed?
25 MR. WEINER: I have a two-page statement that was not signed, but
1 I do have a two-page statement.
2 MS. BAEN: Is that his 1998 statement is all I'm asking, which
3 they disclosed to us, just to make sure it's the same document.
4 MR. WEINER: To clarify --
5 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, just to clarify, this is the same
6 document we are speaking of, but there is no signature at all on it, and I
7 don't believe Mr. Bicic was asked to sign it, neither on the English
8 version or the B/C/S version. So indeed there was a document which was
9 taken and not -- a document which was drawn up in 1998, and I think that
10 we are speaking of the same document, but it's not a signed statement.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because in some cases we've had what has been
12 described as the summary by the investigator on a statement by -- made by
13 a witness to them, so I would like to make sure what we are dealing with
14 is the correct type of document, whether it is a statement made by the
15 witness or a summary by the Prosecution.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honour is absolutely correct when you say
17 that, and it may be that -- I strongly suspect that that's what happened
18 in respect of this particular document, and that explains why it's not
19 signed, neither in the English or the B/C/S.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Of course, there isn't any evidence of that, but I
22 would imagine that that is the reason for the absence of the signatures on
23 that 1998 document.
24 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, it says "Witness Statement" clearly across
25 the front. It has exactly the same document -- it looks exactly the same,
1 standard OTP document as we get with every single witness.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes.
3 MS. BAEN: All I'm asking is that they identify it as his 1998
4 witness statement, just to see that we have the same document. That's
5 all. It doesn't have to be --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. The fair way for the witness is to ask him
7 to go through it at his own pace.
8 MS. BAEN: Yes.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: And at the end of it, ask him whether or not that's
10 the statement.
11 MS. BAEN: That's exactly what I'm trying to do after asking him
12 to look at it, does this appear to be a statement, could he identify it?
13 That's all I'm trying to do, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Bicic, could you again look at this document, look through the
15 information, and see if you recognise that to be your 1998 statement.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: No, actually, the witness should -- you should read
17 it, Mr. Bicic.
18 MS. BAEN: Right.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Because it's very important that we understand
20 correctly that this is your statement or maybe it's something else.
21 MS. BAEN:
22 Q. Would you please read through there. Did you read the whole
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Read it silently to yourself.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Have already read it.
1 MS. BAEN:
2 Q. And does this appear to be the information that you discussed with
3 the OTP in March of 1998; yes or no?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And you met with the OTP to exclusively -- to discuss
6 exclusively the Milan Simic incident; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And in this 1998 statement, you added the information that wasn't
9 in your 1995 statement that Ibrahim Salkic was also beaten by Milan Simic;
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you added other details that weren't in your 1995 statement
13 that you read here earlier today; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All this information that you testified to here before the Trial
16 Chamber about bullets, that's not in your 1998 statement, is it? Yes or
18 A. If I may add something, I will give you an answer.
19 Q. Well, I want you to answer my question first and then you can
20 add. Is there anything in there about bullets; yes or no?
21 A. I didn't quite understand what you're asking me.
22 Q. I'll clarify it. I'll clarify it, then. You testified today
23 about bullets - and actually, last Friday - about bullets, about Milan
24 Simic waving his gun around, about pointing the gun at you and several
25 other people, about hitting you with a gun in a bar, about the glass
1 shattering, and most importantly, you testified about him shooting at
2 least two shots. My question for you: Is any of that information in your
3 1998 statement; yes or no? You have the statement right in front of you.
4 A. No. No, I don't see it here.
5 Q. So there's nothing in there about Milan Simic firing at least two
6 shots in your 1998 statement; yes or no?
7 A. In this statement, it is not to be found.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Okay. In this statement or
9 in your 1995 statement. We'll talk about both of that, then -- those,
11 A. No.
12 Q. So nowhere in your 1998 statement or your 1995 statement that you
13 read here today is there anything about all these details - bullets
14 passing between you and your brother, glass shattering, gun waving, gun
15 pointing and firing shots - yes or no?
16 A. In these statements, no.
17 Q. So therefore, after nine years, these details now come to your
18 memory and come before the Tribunal, after nine years; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination?
22 MR. WEINER: Yes.
23 Re-examined by Mr. Weiner:
24 Q. Mr. Bicic, you gave the statement that's in front of you in 1998.
25 MR. WEINER: Could we actually have this marked, Your Honour,
1 because we have been discussing it, and it should be marked.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought it was. Yes. Let me find out from the
3 Registry assistant.
4 MR. WEINER: The 1998 statement was marked, not the 1995.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number?
6 MR. WEINER: I'm sorry. The 1998 --
7 THE REGISTRAR: It will be marked Defence Exhibit D7/2 ter and
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe to complete the whole thing about these
10 statements, it will be better to have them both on record.
11 MR. WEINER: Yes. That's the 1998. I believe the 1995 statement
12 has already been marked for identification.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Is already -- Yes. Okay. The 1998 one then should
14 also be on record.
15 Yes. Can we have the number? I'm wondering whether we have --
16 THE REGISTRAR: I already -- I just gave the number, I thought.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: -- as exhibits now, the same numbers, for both
18 statements, 1995 and 1998, the English and the Serbo-Croat versions. We
19 have the numbers already?
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you.
22 Yes. Re-examination can proceed.
23 MR. WEINER:
24 Q. Mr. Bicic, you gave this statement in 1998? Could you speak
25 louder, sir?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was this statement voluntary?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did anyone influence any of the statements that you made to the
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did anyone tell you what to say in that statement?
8 A. No.
9 Q. How come, Mr. Bicic, that you're able to testify to certain facts
10 now that you didn't place in your previous statements?
11 A. Probably, as I made several statements, the first time it was
12 terrible to live through it all once again, so that at those moving
13 moments, as I was talking, I probably left a lot out. And also in my
14 second statement, the same occurred. However, when I was given the
15 statements here to review them and read them, I saw that I had left out
16 some things which I had remembered, and then I added them, referring to
17 them here in the courtroom.
18 Q. Your testimony here, has it been truthful?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I'd like to ask you a couple questions about the lawsuit in the
21 United States. Who initiated that lawsuit?
22 A. The complaint was filed by Kemal Mesinovic, who is living in the
23 United States, having recognised Vukovic in the street. I don't know
24 where. Then he called me up and some other people that he knew had been
25 beaten by that same man. I responded to his request to be a witness,
1 without knowing that I too would become a plaintiff, to confirm that
2 Nikola Vukovic had, using false identification documents, been admitted to
3 the United States of America as an immigrant. Actually, he forged some
4 documents and registered there as Nikola Nikolic. I knew him because his
5 wife had, several years before this pizzeria of ours was renovated and
6 refurbished - it used to be a restaurant - she had worked for me for a
7 couple of years. I said five or six years. I can't remember exactly.
8 She was an assistant cook. Also, his sister used to live across the
9 street from this establishment of ours, and then I would see Vukovic very
10 frequently passing by. So Kemal asked me to testify and to identify him
11 and to testify about all the things that this man did in the camp under
12 the nickname Miki.
13 Q. Did you obtain the attorney in this case?
14 A. Yes, but I never saw him.
15 Q. Who initiated the case and when to see the attorney, you or Kemal?
16 A. Kemal.
17 Q. Thank you. Sir, during the cross-examination you were shown a
18 document about some sort of hunters' group, where you were listed in the
19 reserve, some sort of alleged document of TO or SDA members, and counsel
20 asked if you knew who these individuals were, and you indicated that you
21 did. And then counsel asked: Do you know whether or not these are SDA
22 members? And you said no, you did not. Were you a member of the SDA?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you attend on a regular basis, or any sort of basis, SDA
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you ever have any involvement with the SDA?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you have any interest in politics in general, any of the
5 political parties?
6 A. No.
7 MR. WEINER: And the last area I'd like to discuss is - D9/4 is
8 the English, and D9/4 ter in B/C/S - the document of Simo Zaric's
9 interrogation at Brcko. Could the usher please show the witness.
10 Q. Sir, I'd like you to look at the first page, and I'd invite your
11 attention to the second paragraph, the second sentence of the second
12 paragraph. Do you see where it says "We waited until two unidentified
13 individuals in camouflage uniforms came"? Do you see that?
14 A. No. Unfortunately, this is quite illegible. I can't see it.
15 Q. All right. I'll read the sentence, and I'll ask you to comment on
16 it. It's in the English version, the second paragraph, which would be
18 "We waited until two unidentified individuals in camouflage
19 uniforms came, and we handed them all the weapons. At their request, we
20 got into the Golf -- into a Golf, and drove to the SJB, Public Security
21 Station, and from there, we were taken to prison at the SUP."
22 Could you find that in your B/C/S version?
23 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought the witness said the copy he has is
25 MR. WEINER:
1 Q. All right. Let me just ask you this, sir: Is that true? Is that
2 a correct statement, with regard to the section "At their request, we got
3 into the Golf -- into a Golf"? Is that portion of the statement true?
4 A. It's not that we got into the Golf at their request. We were
5 thrown into it. They were beating us. They simply threw us into that
7 Q. Thank you. I'd like to invite your attention to the next page,
8 the statement, page 2 in the English, top paragraph. It's not the full
9 paragraph. The top paragraph, first full sentence on that page: "As far
10 as I know, Alija Fitozovic was a man who acted on behalf of the SDA, and
11 members of the SDA were illegally armed through him." Specifically, I'm
12 referring to the phrase "were illegally armed through him." Do you recall
13 ever making that statement to Simo Zaric during the interrogation at
15 A. I remember that I made a statement, but under what conditions ...
16 Q. Did you ever use the phrase that Fitozovic was illegally arming
17 members of the SDA?
18 A. I don't remember having said that.
19 MR. WEINER: Thank you. No further questions, sir.
20 That completes redirect, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: I have one question, Mr. Bicic.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE MUMBA: In Bosanski Samac where you were living, you
24 explained you had business enterprises which you were running. Were there
25 Serbs with similar business enterprises?
1 A. They were not enterprises, really. These were shops, catering
2 establishments, and other people also owned catering establishments,
3 restaurants, privately owned shops, things like that.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I wanted to find out whether those others who
5 owned similar establishments were also detained with you.
6 A. You mean persons who were ethnic Serbs?
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
8 A. No. They were not detained with us.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: As far as you know, did they remain running their
10 enterprises, after you were arrested?
11 A. I can't really say, but I heard from the guards that they were in
12 some catering establishments that were run by ethnic Serbs. I heard what
13 they were saying.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: What were they saying?
15 A. Well, they talked, amongst themselves, that they went for a drink
16 to Neven Markovic's. He had a cafe in an industrial neighbourhood, in a
17 neighbourhood in the industrial zone, perhaps I could put it that way, an
18 industrial zone of Bosanski Samac. And also to Misa Sekin. That's what
19 he was called. And some other people, to Ignjo, people like that, people
20 who ran cafes, catering establishments.
21 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Bicic, if I might just ask one or two
22 questions. Firstly, in connection with the civil suit in America, for
23 what it's worth, did you ever give or submit a statement personally to any
24 lawyer in the United States?
25 A. A gentleman came to see me at my home. Now, I don't know whether
1 he's a lawyer, because I don't speak English. He briefly jotted something
2 down. And then a few months later, I was asked to come to Ulm, to a
3 university there, and I talked there, again with a man who lectured at
4 that university, who came from the United States. But at that time, my
5 German was not that good, so we tried to communicate but not in a very
6 meaningful way, without much accuracy.
7 How should I put this? Oh, yes. There was a lady there, too, who
8 was working there, but I don't think she was a certified interpreter. She
9 was simply helping with the translation. She spoke our language. So
10 officially, I did not meet with lawyers except for these people. And
11 these people came from some organisation. I can't remember exactly what
12 the name of this organisation was.
13 JUDGE SINGH: All right. But you did not send in a signed
15 A. As far as I can remember, no, I did not. We just talked about
17 JUDGE SINGH: The second question is: When you moved from the
18 secondary school to the primary school, that is, after two days of
19 detention there, did all the detainees move? Because, I think, on the
20 second night, some more detainees came in. Did they all move to the
21 primary school, or did some remain back in the secondary school?
22 A. I think that we were all transferred to the primary school.
23 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I just have one small question, Mr. Bicic. This
25 also concerns the civil suit in the U.S. I wonder whether you could
1 recall approximately the date when you gave this statement or interview
2 with the American professor at Ulm? The reason I'm asking that is I'm
3 wondering whether it was before or after this Statement of Claim in the
4 civil suit was filed. I hope the question is clear. If it's not, I'll
5 make it shorter.
6 A. I think -- well, I know that it was wintertime; that, I know for
7 sure. It was three or four years ago. I can't tell you the exact date,
8 really. I know that a friend gave me a ride and that it was snowing
9 heavily, so we were considerably delayed. We came much later than we were
10 supposed to come. We agreed to meet at that university between 9.00 and
11 10.00; however, we arrived only after 12.00.
12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And just to clarify, was that after you gave the
13 1998 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, the unsigned one that we
14 looked at?
15 A. I could not really answer this question with any certainty. I
16 really don't know. For me, it was something unofficial. We just talked
17 about this. He asked me about what was going on and what had happened,
18 and he brought his picture, this man's picture, and he brought a few
19 pictures. And I said, "Yes, that's the man. His name is Vukovic, not
20 Nikolic," and we talked a little bit. As I said, we talked a little bit,
21 until this lady came who spoke a bit of our language, and then she tried
22 to interpret. This gentleman spoke German much better than I did. So I'm
23 not sure whether it was before my statement or after it. I really can't
24 say that for sure.
25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Any questions arising from the questions from the --
2 the answers from the questions from the Bench? Any questions?
3 Yes, the Prosecutor?
4 MR. WEINER: No.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Bicic, for giving
6 evidence to the Tribunal. You are now free. You can go.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
8 [The witness withdrew].
9 MS. REIDY: Your Honour? Your Honours?
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
11 MS. REIDY: May I just take advantage of this pause in the
12 proceedings just to put on the record that in complying with your request
13 on the memorandum of the witnesses with whom Mr. Pisarevic may potentially
14 have a conflict, whether that be perceived or real, we did file that with
15 the Registry today, just before this witness would take the stand, and I
16 gave a copy of that to the Defence, although, of course, they will get an
17 official copy when it's filed with the Registry. And although the witness
18 and Mr. -- the following witness and Mr. Pisarevic have had some contact,
19 we don't believe that there is any potential -- I mean, there's no reason
20 that Mr. Pisarevic himself, should he choose not to conduct the
21 cross-examination. But just so you're advised that we have complied with
22 your request to provide that memorandum.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you.
24 Where is the next witness? Mr. Usher, is there a witness? Oh, I
25 see. He needed to be told as he was leaving that he should come back with
1 the next witness.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please make the solemn declaration while
4 standing, please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, yes. I'll get up, of course.
6 WITNESS: IBRAHIM SALKIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, my hearing is not very good,
12 so could the volume in these headphones be turned up, please.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The usher can assist with that. Because the
14 usher has no earphones, so -- he wants more volume. Yes. Perhaps the
15 interpreter can greet the witness.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear even less now. Even
17 less. No.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: The greeting again to test the ...
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very poorly. I can hardly hear.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we -- maybe we change the earphones.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Testing, testing, testing.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: We have a spare set.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, fine. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So you can sit down now.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. di Fazio, you can proceed.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please.
3 Examined by Mr. di Fazio:
4 Q. Mr. Salkic, on the question of your hearing, I want you to make
5 sure during your testimony that if you haven't heard a question, either
6 from myself or from Defence counsel or from the Bench, would you make that
7 clear rather than answering to something that you think has been asked
8 you. Make sure you're always clear about the question that's being put to
9 you. Okay?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are you married?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you have children?
14 A. Yes, two.
15 Q. How old are they?
16 A. My son is 21, and my daughter is 13.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
18 come closer to the microphone.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think he can be assisted to push the chair
20 towards the desk.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: And could I -- yes.
22 Q. Where were you born?
23 A. I was born in Bosanski Samac.
24 Q. Where do you currently live?
25 A. I currently live 6 kilometres away from Bosanski Samac.
1 Q. Is that in Republika Srpska or the Federation part of Bosnia?
2 A. Yes, that's in the Federation.
3 Q. You said that you were born in Bosanski Samac. Where did you live
4 up until April of 1992?
5 A. In Bosanski Samac.
6 Q. Were you married whilst living in Bosanski Samac?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, you've told us that you were born there. What about your
9 ancestors? By that, I mean going back a couple of generations - your
10 grandfather, great-grandfather, and so on - where did they live?
11 A. Yes. They all lived there. They were born there. As a matter of
12 fact, they were among the first people to come to Bosanski Samac.
13 Q. What ethnic background are you?
14 A. I am a Muslim. I'm sorry. I meant ethnic Bosniak, and by
15 religion, I'm a Muslim.
16 Q. In the former Yugoslavia, did you perform military service?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Ask you remember where that was?
19 A. Yes. I did my military service in Pula and in Split, from the
20 27th of September, 1973, and then I got out on the 21st of March, 1975,
21 because my military service went on for 18 months.
22 Q. Did you specialise in any particular aspect of military matters,
23 military activity?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What was that?
1 A. It was a navy unit that was a mine -- an anti-mine unit.
2 Q. As a young man, were you a sportsman?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you ever engage in canoeing as a sport?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What sort of level did you get to in that particular sport?
7 A. I was, in fact, champion of Yugoslavia, so it was a very high
9 Q. Did you compete on an international level?
10 A. I did. I even took part as a member of the Yugoslav national
12 Q. What years were you on the Yugoslavian national team?
13 A. From the beginning of 1970 until 1973, when I went to do my
14 military service.
15 Q. Prior to April of 1992, we've heard evidence that the basic
16 population layout in the municipality of Bosanski Samac was this: Most of
17 the Muslims lived in the town of Bosanski Samac, Croats lived in Croat
18 villages surrounding the town of Bosanski Samac, and Serbs lived in Serb
19 villages also surrounding the town of Bosanski Samac, and furthermore,
20 members of all three ethnic groups lived mixed and interspersed in the
21 town of Bosanski Samac. Would you agree with that assessment?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What was your occupation, what sort of work did you do, in the
24 years leading up to April of 1992?
25 A. I had my own crafts shop, which principally provided metalwork,
1 metal sheetings for buildings, for construction work. I had my own
2 private business, water pipes and the like.
3 Q. Was it the case that if someone building something, construction
4 site, for example, needed parts or metal parts, they would come to you so
5 that you could fashion and make the parts necessary?
6 A. Yes, quite right. It was a combined locksmiths and tinsmiths, so
7 I manufactured steel doors and windows with aluminium covers. So my
8 answer is yes.
9 Q. In the period of time leading up to April of 1992, was your wife
10 engaged in any sort of business?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What did she do?
13 A. She was working in the primary school. She was a supplier,
14 somebody who carried the mail. This was until about six months before the
15 war. And then I opened for her a business with video games, and she was
16 supposed to devote herself full time to that, to video games.
17 Q. Was that business, the video game business, up and running as at
18 April 1992?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If I may just return briefly to your sporting activities. Apart
21 from canoeing, did you hunt and fish?
22 A. Yes. I also played handball. I was a member of the city team for
23 handball for many years.
24 Q. I'm more interested in the hunting and fishing. Did you possess
25 weapons in order for you to carry out your hunting activities?
1 A. Yes. I had two hunting rifles: we called it a Sacmarica, and a
2 hunting carbine for large game.
3 Q. Were you ever a member of any hunting clubs or organisations?
4 A. Yes. I was a member of the hunting society called Fazan, or
6 Q. Is that strictly a Bosanski Samac club, or is that something that
7 is Bosnia-wide or indeed Yugoslavia-wide?
8 A. No. This society covered only the territory of Bosanski Samac
9 municipality. That is the town and the surrounding villages that came
10 within the same municipality.
11 Q. How long had it been in existence and carrying on its activities
12 as at April of 1992?
13 A. I'm not able to tell you exactly when it was started, but I am 48
14 years old, and as a small child of five or six, I had already started
15 hunting, so it existed and I have been a member since 1975. That is when
16 I came back from the army.
17 Q. Did it have headquarters, a club room, something like that?
18 A. Yes, yes. There were two rooms. One was in town itself, a kind
19 of office where you could pay your membership fees and a secretary was
20 there to take care of daily affairs. And there was a facility in the
21 village of Donja Slatina, and it was called the Hunting Lodge or Hunting
23 JUDGE SINGH: May I just seek a clarification there? Where is
24 Donja Slatina and how often were you and the others away on hunting
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Donja Slatina is about 10 to 12
2 kilometres away from the town of Samac, and we would go hunting there
3 quite often. It would be on Sundays during the hunting season, and the
4 hunting season started depending on the kind of game that one was hunting,
5 whether it was large game or small game.
6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: If I could just ask you, Mr. Salkic, a follow-up
7 question. Was this village of Donja Slatina an ethnic Serb or an ethnic
8 Croat village?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Donja Slatina is a Serb village,
10 Donja Slatina.
11 MR. DI FAZIO:
12 Q. Did Fazan, or Pheasant, ever organise hunting trips for its
14 A. Yes. The organisation of the hunting society Fazan consisted of
15 several sections, so there may have been two or three villages in one
16 section, then Samac, the whole town, in another section. And then within
17 those sections themselves, there were groups, groups of hunters which had
18 to consist of at least five hunters, but the maximum was unlimited. So it
19 was rarely that Fazan organised hunting for us. But we had some members
20 working abroad, so we would organise a couple of days before New Year's
21 Day or just after New Year's Day for those people who did not have
22 occasion to join us in our hunting trips regularly.
23 Q. We've referred to three ethnic groups in the -- living in the
24 area, the Croats, Serbs, and Muslims. Were members of all those three
25 groups represented in Fazan?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I want to ask you now if you've ever been a member of a political
4 A. No, no, until a year prior to the war, when I joined the SDA
5 political party, which I abandoned six months later.
6 Q. Firstly, let's go to the issue of your joining the SDA. Why did
7 you join it?
8 A. I joined the SDA like anyone who had a position of his own. I
9 liked the programme of this party and, like any other citizen, it was my
10 democratic right to join one of the political parties, and I decided that
11 it should be the SDA.
12 Q. When you say that you were a member for some months and then
13 decided to abandon it, how did you abandon it? Did you actually do
14 something to abandon it or did you just cease actively participating or
15 doing anything on behalf of the party?
16 A. I never had any official position in the party, so I couldn't
17 withdraw from those activities. I was just an ordinary member with a
18 membership card, and the way I had picked it up when I joined, I returned
19 it. I went to the party office, said I didn't want to be a member any
20 more, and handed my card back.
21 Q. During the period of time that you were a member, did you ever
22 engage in any sort of party activities? I don't necessarily mean holding
23 position, but did you do anything, fund-raising, going to meetings, that
24 sort of thing?
25 A. No.
1 Q. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you tell me if this
2 is a correct scenario: You joined, paid your membership, and that was the
3 extent of it. Now, is that correct, or did you engage in more -- more
5 A. The former is correct. I paid my membership fees, I was a member,
6 and I simply abandoned it. I wasn't involved in anything.
7 Q. Do you know Blagoje Simic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How long have you known him?
10 A. I've known him for quite a long time, since my early youth. That
11 would make it about 30 years.
12 Q. Did you ever socialise with him?
13 A. Not really, but we would always greet one another in the street,
14 because he was a doctor. When we were young, we would just say hello, but
15 later on he was a doctor, and I would always address him with respect, as
16 "the doctor."
17 Q. Was he a member of any political party?
18 A. I cannot say that he was, but I do know that -- I don't know how I
19 can explain it, but I heard from others that he was in the SDS. People
20 were saying this. I never saw his membership card, so I can't claim that
21 he actually belonged to that political party.
22 Q. Have a look around the courtroom. If you see him, point him out.
23 A. This gentleman over there with a beard.
24 Q. Do you know Miroslav Tadic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How long have you known him?
2 A. Also for a long time, 25 to 30 years, maybe even longer, but
3 something like that.
4 Q. Did he have a nickname?
5 A. Yes. We called him Miro, and also Brko, Mustacio [phoen], because
6 he almost always wore a moustache, and so we called him Brko.
7 Q. Have you ever heard of an establishment called Cafe AS, A-S?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was he connected in any way with that establishment?
10 A. Yes. I think he was the owner. If it wasn't he, then it was his
11 wife or his son, but I think it was Mr. Miroslav who was the owner.
12 Q. Did you ever go to that place, that cafe?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In the period of -- I'll withdraw that. In the period of time
15 leading up to April of 1992, did you go to the Cafe AS?
16 A. Yes, until perhaps the last two and a half to three months.
17 Q. Was there any reason for your ceasing to go in the last two and a
18 half to three months?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was the reason?
21 A. The reason was that I experienced some unpleasantness there from
22 some people, and later on I was to see that they were people from the 4th
23 Detachment. They told me that that was not my place there, and then
24 Mr. Miro's son got up and said that I was a guest there and that I should
25 be left alone. And after that I really thought myself that maybe I
1 shouldn't go there any more.
2 Q. So a member of Mr. Tadic's family was polite to you and informed
3 you that you were still welcome; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you look around the courtroom, and if you see Mr. Tadic, point
6 him out, please.
7 A. There he is. I'm sure he won't take it against me if I say he has
8 a moustache when I point at him.
9 Q. What about Milan Simic? Do you know him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How long have you known him?
12 A. I've known him also for a long time. We lived together in the
13 same town. Again, some 25 to 30 years, and more.
14 Q. Did you ever socialise with him?
15 A. Yes. Occasionally we'd meet at a cafe here and there. One might
16 say we were on good terms. Because Samac was a small town. Everyone knew
17 everyone else. It's not a big city. We did socialise, and sometimes if I
18 needed something, he would do me a favour too.
19 Q. What sort of favours?
20 A. For instance, I didn't have a fax machine. Then I would go to his
21 company. Mr. Predrag Blagojevic worked [Realtime transcript read in error
22 "lived"] with him, and I knew him very well. I used to play handball
23 with him. And we'd have a cup of coffee, and in the meantime my fax would
24 be sent. And we'd have a chat, and we were really on good terms.
25 Q. Did you know his family?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. There is a problem with the
4 transcript. The witness has said that Mr. Predrag Blagojevic worked with
5 him and it says here "lived with him." Could you please -- I mean, if my
6 colleague can testify --
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Ask the witness.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: -- clarify that. Thank you.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecutor can clarify that with the
11 MR. DI FAZIO:
12 Q. Just a little clarification, Mr. Salkic. The transcript says that
13 Mr. Predrag Blagojevic lived with Milan Simic. Did you mean to say that
14 he worked with --
15 A. No, no. They worked together in the same company.
16 Q. Now, there's been evidence in the case that you know Muhamed Bicic
17 and Hasan Bicic and are friends with those two men. Can you tell us if
18 Milan Simic was apparently friendly with those two men?
19 A. Yes. They would often meet in the establishment that the Bicics
20 had. They would meet and talk. In fact, I think they were on better
21 terms with him than I was.
22 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Perica Misic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What ethnic background is he?
25 A. A Croat.
1 Q. Can you inform the Chamber if Milan Simic knew or was friendly
2 with Perica Misic?
3 A. Well, I can confirm that they knew each other. I think they
4 worked together even. As to whether they were really friends, I am unable
5 to confirm that.
6 Q. Thank you. Look around the courtroom. If you see Milan Simic,
7 point him out, please.
8 A. Yes, I can see him, over there.
9 Q. And Mr. Simo Zaric, do you know him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How long have you known him?
12 A. Also as long as the others. For a long, long time we've known
13 each other.
14 Q. Would you greet each other in the street prior to April of 1992?
15 A. Yes, we would greet each other. We went hunting together.
16 Sometimes we would organise something, sit together, have a drink
17 together, yes. For many years we went hunting together.
18 Q. When you went hunting together, were these hunting trips when
19 Mr. Simo Zaric was present conducted under the auspices or the umbrella or
20 organised by Fazan?
21 A. Yes. Yes, because this was a regular hunt. You couldn't
22 otherwise go to the hunting grounds. For a time, in fact, we were in the
23 same hunting group. As I was explaining a moment ago, the group has to
24 have at least five members, upwards, and there were at least 15 of us in
25 this group.
1 Q. Have a look around this room and see if you can point him out.
2 A. Yes, there he is, wearing glasses.
3 Q. Who is on his left?
4 A. Mr. Milan Simic.
5 Q. And on the right?
6 A. Mr. Blagoje Simic.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, may the transcript
8 reflect that he's correctly identified all the witnesses.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
10 MR. DI FAZIO:
11 Q. I'd just like to ask you some more questions about another
12 individual, Fadil Topcagic. Do you know him?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What ethnic background is he?
15 A. He's a Muslim.
16 Q. How long have you known him?
17 A. Since my early childhood, since when I was five or six. I know
18 him for as long as I have known myself more or less.
19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: For the record, you might want to go back to line
20 108.20 where you said that the witness has correctly identified all the
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, I'm grateful to Your Honour for that. Yes.
23 Perhaps the record should -- or rather the transcript should indicate that
24 the witness has correctly identified the defendants in the case.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
2 Q. Just a few more questions before 5.00, Mr. Salkic. Is Topcagic
3 related to Simo Zaric?
4 A. No. He's not a relative of his. Fadil's sister is Mr. Simo
5 Zaric's wife.
6 Q. So he's his brother-in-law?
7 A. We call it surjak, sister's husband. In Bosnia, we call that
9 Q. Okay. Were they apparently friendly?
10 A. Well, normally, as relations, but they were on good terms anyway.
11 Both of them hunted with me, and I think they were on good terms.
12 Q. In the period of time, in the months leading up to April of 1992,
13 did you go on any hunting trips with Fadil Topcagic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How long before the 16th of April, 1992 was the last hunting trip
16 that you went on with Fadil Topcagic? If you don't know exactly, give us
17 an approximation.
18 A. Well, you see, there's three and a half months in the new year and
19 a month before that, so about four and a half months.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm going to move on to
21 another topic. We've only got a minute left. Could we break now and keep
22 the continuity going?
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will adjourn and continue tomorrow at 0930
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.59 p.m.,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day
2 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.