Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3912

1 Friday, 09 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, case number IT-95-9-T,

8 the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav Tadic and Simo

9 Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution is continuing with

11 examination-in-chief.

12 MR. WEINER: Good morning, Philip Weiner for the Prosecution.

13 WITNESS: ESAD DAGOVIC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examination by Mr. Weiner: [Continued]

16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dagovic.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. Yesterday, you were telling us about the day of the attack and

19 how, during the morning hours, you had breakfast with the Bicics, how you

20 started to work in the cellar to build some sort of bomb shelter or so.

21 Now, during that late morning, did you see Hasan Bicic?

22 A. I did not see Hasan later, or rather I saw him after breakfast,

23 when we went to check whether everything was all right with the pizzeria,

24 or rather his shop.

25 Q. Okay. Tell us what you and Hasan did. Tell the Court.

Page 3913

1 A. We unlocked the shop, we checked to see whether everything was all

2 right, we closed some window that we usually leave open during the night

3 in order to get some fresh air in, we realised that we could not work that

4 day, and we locked up the shop, and we each went our own ways.

5 Q. When you walked to the shop, and then I assume walked home, were

6 you carrying a gun?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What kind of gun were you carrying?

9 A. I had a pistol, which I carried with me every day.

10 Q. Why did you carry a pistol with you every day?

11 A. Well, I had a permit for it, and often I carried a lot of money

12 with me, or rather the earnings from several of Mr. Hasan Bicic's shops

13 and cafes.

14 Q. So it was nothing unusual for you to be carrying a gun on that

15 day?

16 A. No, because I used to carry that on the previous day and every

17 other day.

18 Q. Now, while you were out walking to and from the pizzeria, did you

19 see anything?

20 A. Yes. I saw vehicles of the former Yugoslav People's Army moving

21 in all directions, and I saw -- somewhere in the direction of the

22 department store or perhaps a bit further off, I saw soldiers moving about

23 in camouflage uniforms.

24 Q. Now, you said you returned home.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3914

1 Q. Now, what did you do when you got back home?

2 A. What did I do? I talked to my parents. I told them what I saw,

3 and as I said, I was home.

4 Q. Now, did you listen to the radio at all?

5 A. Yes. That was the only station that we managed to hear, because

6 we did not dare listen to any other stations, in fear of the then

7 authorities. We listened to Radio Bosanski Samac, or rather -- Bosanski

8 Samac, the name of Bosanski Samac, was changed into Serb Samac.

9 Q. Did they change the name of the radio station?

10 A. Yes. The station that was called Radio Bosanski Samac was from

11 then on called Radio Srpski Samac.

12 Q. And what did you hear on the radio station?

13 A. Well, we heard that, as they called them, the Serb authorities had

14 taken over the town of Samac, that everything was all right. They were

15 calling upon people to surrender their weapons, or rather, to take them

16 out in front of their houses, so that they, or rather, the soldiers of the

17 4th Detachment and of the Yugoslav People's Army, then the Serb army,

18 could collect these weapons with their trucks.

19 Q. Now, when you said they were telling people to turn over their

20 weapons, was this one single broadcast or was this several broadcasts?

21 A. They said that on several occasions.

22 Q. Now, did anyone ever come for your weapon, your pistol?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And could you tell the Court about that situation.

25 A. It was a new thing for me. To me it looked like a war movie. A

Page 3915

1 tank was moving along the street, and Mr. Simo Zaric and Mr. Miroslav

2 Tadic were standing on this tank, and they were saying where the tank

3 should stop, in front of which house. And then the drivers of the tank

4 would point the barrel at that house and all the soldiers who were walking

5 by the tank would, on the orders given by Mr. Zaric, enter the yards, or

6 rather, our houses, and they asked for weapons by force, or rather, they

7 used all kinds of words. I mean, I don't know how to put this. It looked

8 like a command, orders. They would say, "Surrender your weapons." They

9 would surround the house, the yard.

10 Q. Just let's take it one step at a time. Did they stop at your

11 house?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where were you when they stopped at your home?

14 A. At that moment I was in the yard of my house, so I could see him.

15 Q. And when they stopped in front of your house, who was present?

16 A. You mean the soldiers?

17 Q. Among the soldiers. Did you see any of the defendants present in

18 front of your house?

19 A. Yes. I saw Mr. Simo Zaric and Mr. Miroslav Tadic, in addition to

20 the other soldiers.

21 Q. And about how many soldiers were there?

22 A. Well, in my estimate, perhaps over 20.

23 Q. And just tell us, from what you saw, exactly what happened, as

24 best as you can remember, when they stopped in front of your house.

25 A. What happened? Well, on Mr. Zaric's orders, they entered my yard

Page 3916

1 and they were asking for weapons, or rather, they were screaming. They

2 were yelling in the yard, "Surrender your weapons. Get out." And I said

3 that I was in the yard, and at that moment I was moving into the house.

4 And they got in there. My mother, my father, and my brother went out.

5 They went to the steps of our house. And they pointed guns at us and they

6 asked us to hand over our weapons.

7 Q. And what did you do?

8 A. Since we were civilians, I was afraid that something could happen,

9 and I had hidden that pistol in the cellar of my house. Escorted by a

10 soldier, Goran Buzakovic, I entered my cellar and I surrendered this

11 pistol to him.

12 Q. And this Goran Buzakovic, what military unit was he from?

13 A. He was from the unit of Mr. Simo Zaric, or rather, the 4th

14 Detachment.

15 Q. And these other soldiers that were there, where were they from?

16 What unit, if you know?

17 A. I knew most of the soldiers. They belonged to the 4th

18 Detachment. But there were others I did not know. I don't know whether

19 they were the so-called members of the special forces from Serbia or

20 whether they were the members of the 4th Detachment from other villages,

21 but they were unknown to me, at any rate.

22 Q. Now, after you handed him your pistol, did they ask you for any

23 other weapons, or did they search, or what did they do? Tell the

24 Tribunal.

25 A. Yes. They were looking for hand grenades, automatic rifles, which

Page 3917

1 I did not have, and they partly searched the house.

2 Q. And did they eventually leave?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what did they do next, if you saw?

5 A. They would go to the next Bosnian Muslim houses, or rather,

6 Bosnian Catholic houses belonging to Croats, and they were looking for

7 weapons there too as well.

8 Q. Did you notice whether they stopped at any of the Serbian homes?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Now, you -- when you say "no," do you mean you didn't notice or

11 they didn't stop at any Serbian homes?

12 A. No, they did not stop, because they didn't need to. They were in

13 their units for the most part.

14 Q. Now, when you talked about the 4th Detachment, are you -- were you

15 familiar with the 4th Detachment prior to this attack?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And who was in charge of the 4th Detachment, as best you knew?

18 A. Mr. Zaric, and Mr. Miroslav Tadic was his right hand.

19 Q. And who was out enlisting members for the 4th Detachment?

20 A. Again, Mr. Simo Zaric and, as I said, his right hand, Mr. Miroslav

21 Tadic.

22 Q. Now, do you know where the meetings for the 4th Detachment were

23 being held prior to the attack, in the months prior to the attack?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where was that?

Page 3918

1 A. In the cafe of Mr. Miroslav Tadic, which was called AS.

2 Q. And was this common knowledge in Bosanski Samac, that the meetings

3 were being held there for the 4th Detachment?

4 A. Yes, yes. It was a sort of secret that everybody knew.

5 Q. Now, after you turned over your weapon, during the day, did you

6 hear any other broadcasts during these first few days of the attack?

7 A. Yes. During these first few days, I heard over the radio that all

8 the citizens of Bosnian or Croat, or rather Muslim or Croat ethnicity,

9 should report at the building of the Territorial Defence, or rather the

10 former Yugoslav People's Army, that is to say everyone from the ages of 16

11 to 60. And we were ordered to wear on our left arm white armbands so that

12 they could recognise us even better.

13 Q. When you say "we were ordered," what do you mean? Who had to wear

14 those white armbands on their left arm?

15 A. Croats and Muslims.

16 Q. Did they state on that -- during that radio broadcast what would

17 happen if you didn't report to the TO?

18 A. They said that they would be shot, executed, whoever would not

19 report to the Territorial Defence building.

20 Q. During those broadcasts, was there any information about public

21 meetings by Muslims or Croatians?

22 A. Yes. They said that they should not assemble in groups bigger

23 than three persons, and this related only to the Muslims and the Croats.

24 Q. Now, over those next few days, did you see any signs or posters or

25 announcements concerning any of these orders that you heard over Radio

Page 3919

1 Serbia or Radio Serbia Samac?

2 A. Yes. There were posters that were all over town, and it said on

3 them that no more than three Croats or three Muslims respectively were

4 allowed to assemble.

5 Q. Was there any signature on those announcements or posters?

6 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, the signature of Stevan Todorovic,

7 nicknamed Stiv.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, as a result of that order, what did you do? Did

9 you go to the TO?

10 A. Yes, of course. I was afraid for my life. I was so young, I was

11 only 22 years old. I wanted to live my life, so I did report.

12 Q. And who did you go with?

13 A. I went with my brother and with a few young men, Muslims and

14 Croats from my street.

15 Q. How were you dressed when you went there? Did you wear the --

16 basically, did you wear the armband?

17 A. Yes, the armband. We didn't dare go out without an armband. So I

18 did have this armband on my left arm.

19 Q. And when you were walking there, or to or from the Territorial

20 Defence building, did you see any other Muslims or Croatians along the

21 streets?

22 A. Yes. They were going in the same direction as I was, because I

23 saw them at the Territorial Defence.

24 Q. And were they wearing those armbands?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3920

1 Q. What about the Serbs? Did you see any Serbs?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And were they wearing armbands, too?

4 A. No. They differed from us only by virtue of the fact that they

5 were wearing uniforms.

6 Q. Once you got to the TO, what happened? What did they do?

7 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand this. When I got to the TO?

8 Q. I'm sorry, the Territorial Defence building. They told you to

9 report to the Territorial Defence building. What did they do with you at

10 the Territorial Defence building?

11 A. They wrote down our names, or rather we reported there. We had to

12 bring our personal IDs. We gave them to them, and then they recorded us.

13 Q. Now, while you were at the Territorial Defence building, where is

14 the police station or the SUP in relation to the Territorial Defence

15 building?

16 A. This building is across the street, that is to say opposite the

17 Territorial Defence building. And if I may say something, what I really

18 remember is the screams that could be heard there. They were beating

19 people, and these people were moaning and screaming and crying from the

20 pain inflicted on them.

21 Q. And you could hear that across the street at the Territorial

22 Defence building?

23 A. Yes, because the prisoners were in the same building, in the

24 building of the former police station in Samac. I could see soldiers in

25 camouflage uniforms that were going in and out of the police building.

Page 3921

1 Q. Did you recognise any of these soldiers as being local people?

2 A. For the most part, they were the so-called members of the

3 specialist forces, or rather soldiers from Serbia.

4 Q. Now, at that point, you've registered, you hear screaming from the

5 building. How do you feel?

6 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I was wondering whether they had

7 brought us to this building on purpose so that we would hear these screams

8 and that they could intimidate us in this way. So I felt as if I were

9 drifting in the air. I don't know whether it was out of fear or

10 whatever.

11 Q. Did you do anything else at the Territorial Defence building?

12 A. As far as I can remember, no.

13 Q. Did they ask you -- did they try and recruit you, try and mobilise

14 you into the JNA? Did they ask you about forced labour at that point, or

15 anything else at that point?

16 A. Yes. They offered us weapons, or rather, to join the army of

17 Republika Srpska, which I and most of the other people refused, of course.

18 Q. What did you do next?

19 A. Then I went to my home.

20 Q. Could you tell us about the forced labour? What happens next with

21 regard to forced labour? How did you know where to go to work?

22 A. I knew because a messenger would come to the house and say that I

23 had to report immediately at the local commune building. We would go

24 there and then they would assign us for labour, forced labour.

25 Q. Now, in relation to your visit to the Territorial Defence building

Page 3922

1 and your return home, how soon after your return home did one of these

2 couriers or messengers arrive?

3 A. Well, I don't know exactly, but I think it was on the following

4 day, or one of the following days.

5 Q. Now, they told you to go to a certain location?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you see other people at that location who had to do forced

8 labour?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And was this just the men that had to do the forced labour?

11 A. No. What I noticed was that it was only Muslims and Croats, and

12 there were old people, women, and even children, say, 15 or 16 years old.

13 Q. Who in your family had to do the forced labour?

14 A. In my family, everybody had to do forced labour. To tell you

15 quite frankly, my parents worked much less than my brother and I did, and

16 we were exposed to very hard labour, my brother and I.

17 Q. During your forced labour assignments, give me the age of the

18 oldest -- a range of the oldest people and the youngest people.

19 A. Well, as I said, they were like between 16 and 60. They asked for

20 all these people to report to them. So it was between the ages of 16 and

21 60.

22 Q. Were there any Serbs that had to work forced labour?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How often did you have to work or were you forced to work?

25 A. I went every day, and the work would go on for about 10 or 12

Page 3923

1 hours a day even.

2 Q. Did have you to work on the weekends, on Saturdays and Sundays,

3 too?

4 A. Yes, sometimes even during the night.

5 Q. Were you fed?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were you paid for this work?

8 A. No.

9 Q. What about the sick, the sick people, or people who weren't

10 feeling well? Did they have to work?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What about the leaders, the SDA leaders, or the leaders of the

13 different political parties, the educated, highly educated people? Did

14 they have to work?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What sort of jobs were they given?

17 A. On one occasion, or rather, while I was working in town, since he

18 had already been arrested, Mr. Sulejman Tihic had to sweep the street in

19 front of the police building. Now, what did I notice? They were laughing

20 at him and they were humiliating him, because he was a man who held a high

21 position, who was educated.

22 Q. What sort of jobs were you assigned?

23 A. Most often we dug trenches, but we did other work, too, in

24 addition to that.

25 Q. Tell the Tribunal the different types of work that you did,

Page 3924

1 please.

2 A. We dug trenches, we carried sacks, bags of sand, very heavy bags,

3 maybe 50 kilos in weight, and we took them to the silo so that they could

4 make shelters or shields. And then from the silo buildings you could see

5 far into Croatia, and probably shoot -- the snipers would shoot somebody

6 on the other side of the river Sava.

7 Q. Was there ever any gunfire while you were working on these

8 trenches or silos?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And could you tell us about that.

11 A. Yes. This was on the embankment, actually, on the border with

12 village Prud. There was shooting, and I noticed that each time the

13 shooting was caused by the soldiers of the army of Republika Srpska, who

14 provoked by firing on the Croatian side, so that they would fire back, and

15 we were in between. They didn't even allow us to take shelter when there

16 was shooting.

17 Q. Did women have to dig trenches?

18 A. I didn't see women digging trenches, but they did perform other

19 work.

20 Q. What type of work did the women do?

21 A. Mostly, they swept the streets. They even used to clean the

22 houses or the apartments which were taken by the Serbs there at that time

23 from the special forces.

24 Q. Now, at no time do they ever feed you during this forced labour,

25 during these forced labour assignments?

Page 3925

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever ask for food or water?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell us -- tell the Court what happened when you asked for food or

5 water.

6 A. At one time I was hit in the head with a pistol instead of being

7 given a piece of bread.

8 Q. Who struck you with the pistol?

9 A. I don't know the soldier who hit me with the pistol.

10 Q. Now, were there soldiers supervising this work at these sites?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And who gave the orders at these sites, the soldiers, these

13 guards, or who?

14 A. Mostly at these places, there were soldiers from the 4th

15 Detachment who were under the command of, as I've already said, of

16 Mr. Simo Zaric, and I mostly knew those guys.

17 Q. Did you see other soldiers from -- who you referred to as specials

18 or paramilitaries?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And how were they dressed?

21 A. They wore camouflage uniforms. They had more modern weapons. For

22 example, the Grey Wolves, they carried hats which were like cowboy hats.

23 They also had paint on their faces. Compared to the soldiers of -- who

24 were part of Arkan's Tigers, who wore woolen caps which you could pull

25 down over your head and face so that only the eyes were visible and there

Page 3926

1 was also an opening for the mouth. And of course, both of them had their

2 own insignia.

3 Q. Now, when you worked these jobs, did you strictly work in the town

4 of Samac, or did you work in other towns or in other municipalities?

5 A. Before I was imprisoned, I worked at Samac -- in Samac and also in

6 the villages around Samac.

7 Q. How did you get to these jobs? Did you have to go yourself to the

8 village, or did someone take you, or what was the process?

9 A. As I've already said, before the local commune where we would

10 gather, a truck would arrive there, and we had to get into that truck, and

11 then they would transport us to the forced labour.

12 Q. Did you ever speak to any of these paramilitaries during the

13 forced labour or while -- or during your later detention?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did they tell you why they came to Samac?

16 A. Yes. They had a Serbian accent which I was very familiar with,

17 and they would say, "We've been called to come here. We've been brought

18 here in order to save the Serbs who are being killed by the Muslims and

19 the Croats." But as they themselves said, this wasn't true.

20 Q. Did any of them ever indicate that they had any sort of criminal

21 background?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Tell the Court what they said.

24 A. Mostly they spoke amongst themselves, and sometimes they would

25 look directly at us and talk, and this would refer to us, that these were

Page 3927

1 mostly prisoners, criminals, whom the Serbian authorities had released,

2 not all of them, but most of them had released from prisons and told them

3 to go to Bosnia to fight, and that's why they were released. And they

4 told them everything that they looted and plundered was theirs.

5 Q. Let's continue on to the end of April, 1992. Do you know a

6 soldier by the -- that uses the nickname of Tralja?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you ever see him with Hasan Bicic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Tell the Court about that incident, please.

11 A. Hasan Bicic was brought by two soldiers, one of whom was the

12 person called Tralja. They were brought to my house. Hasan was in a very

13 bad state. He was beaten, bloodied. I think he had a broken nose. He

14 was very filthy. He had a long -- longer beard. And this is not how I

15 knew him. He asked for money. Actually, these Serb special forces asked

16 for money so that they could pay for the head of the brother of Hasan

17 Bicic, Muhamed Bicic, so that they wouldn't kill him.

18 Q. What did you say?

19 A. I gave them 800 German marks right away, and I told them I didn't

20 have any more. I did have more, but I didn't give everything because I

21 was afraid that they would take everything. I told them that I would

22 collect the money and that then I would give it to them.

23 Q. Did they leave after that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did he ever return, this Tralja, for more money or other items?

Page 3928

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What happened when he returned?

3 A. If I can go back to the previous question --

4 Q. Sure.

5 A. -- if you permit me? On that occasion, when Tralja was together

6 with Hasan Bicic, he ordered Hasan Bicic to take off a gold chain from my

7 brother's neck. And Hasan personally took it, and he had to give it to

8 Tralja, and then they left.

9 Q. Now, when they came back, tell the Court what happened.

10 A. When they came back, I had to give them the keys to my car,

11 together with all the documents, all the car documents, the insurance, the

12 travels -- the road licence.

13 Q. Why did you have to give them your vehicle?

14 A. Because he had an automatic pistol pointed at my head and he was

15 very savage. There were blows and all the other things that went along

16 with that.

17 Q. Now, when you say "he," was that Tralja?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did this happen at your parents' home?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was your vehicle worth?

22 A. I paid 7.300 German marks for my car. That vehicle was worth more

23 at that time, but since I had bought it from the owner of the pizzeria

24 where I worked, from Hasan Bicic, I got a much better price for it.

25 Q. Did they take anything else from your home on that occasion, or

Page 3929

1 from your parents' home?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did they take?

4 A. That was gold jewellery, money, and small items which were of some

5 value.

6 Q. What ever happened to Hasan's jeep that he was letting you use,

7 Hasan Bicic's jeep?

8 A. I put Hasan's jeep in the garage, but they drove that jeep off as

9 well.

10 Q. Who was "they" who drove it off?

11 A. Serb specials.

12 Q. Now, were you ever given a receipt or a certificate for any of the

13 jewellery, the vehicles, any of the items that were taken?

14 A. No, we never received any written receipts. We only received

15 blows as a form of receipt.

16 Q. Obviously, you weren't paid for these items.

17 A. No.

18 Q. By the way, did you ever see Hasan's jeep again?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Tell the Court how you saw the jeep and in what circumstances.

21 A. This was when I was already detained in the police building. A

22 member of the Serb special forces came, Slobodan Miljkovic, called Lugar,

23 and he asked for me, since he had heard - who else could he have heard it

24 from but from local Serbs - that I drove the jeep around. So he was

25 asking for me so that I could show him how he could take the jeep out of

Page 3930

1 the towing position, because when the jeep was in that position, it could

2 go, but it couldn't go very fast. So that I then had to get out of the

3 camp to show him how to do that. He probably wasn't a very good driver,

4 because a good driver would know himself how you could do this.

5 Q. Let us go down another week, to May 5th, approximately noontime.

6 Could you tell us where you were?

7 A. On May 5th, in the morning, I was doing forced labour. Then I

8 came home. A police vehicle came, and soldiers and policemen came out of

9 the car. They entered my house. They searched my house. They took some

10 small items with them. And since I was -- I often went hunting with my

11 uncle, who later was killed in the camp, so we used to go hunting for

12 game. And they took away binoculars. They took that with them. They

13 confiscated that. They also took some silver glasses and some other

14 things that I had, and they told me that I had to go for an informative

15 talk at the police building.

16 Q. And did they bring you to the police station for an informative

17 talk?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And when you say "the police station," where was that located?

20 A. It was in the main street of our town, Marsala Tita street.

21 They've changed its name now. It now has the name of some famous Serbian

22 person. So that's where they took me. But this was no longer a real

23 police station. It was a camp now.

24 Q. You mean a prison camp?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3931

1 Q. Did you enter the station?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell the Tribunal what happened once you went to the station.

4 A. When I entered the police station, I was brutally beaten in the

5 hall of the station, of the building.

6 Q. By whom?

7 A. Stevan Todorovic was there, amongst others.

8 Q. And tell them what he did.

9 A. First they took the rest of the gold that -- gold jewellery that I

10 was wearing. They beat me. Stevan asked me where my money and my car

11 were. They laughed at me, they spat at me, they beat me all over my

12 body. I was in a very, very bad state. I was bleeding.

13 Q. What did they use to beat you with?

14 A. They beat me with everything. Mostly they beat me with batons,

15 with their feet, anything that they could get their hands on.

16 Q. How long did this beating last?

17 A. According to my estimate, it lasted about 20 minutes.

18 Q. And what did they do with the property that they stole from you,

19 the gold chains?

20 A. They gave them to Stevan Todorovic, those soldiers who were with

21 him.

22 Q. Was it just gold chains that they robbed from you?

23 A. I also had two bracelets, besides the chains; I also had some

24 rings. They took all of that.

25 Q. And was that all given to Stevan Todorovic?

Page 3932

1 A. As far as I was able to see, yes.

2 Q. What happened after you were beaten?

3 A. After they beat me - excuse me - they placed me in a room in the

4 SUP building and they told me that they would come to interrogate me.

5 Q. Could you describe this room and what was in it or who was in it

6 when you arrived?

7 A. The room, if you look at it from the entrance to the building, it

8 was on the right side, behind the reception. It used to be an office. At

9 that time, in that room, there was one man, and that's where we waited for

10 the interrogation. Soon after that, I was moved to a different room.

11 Q. How many other people were in that room?

12 A. In the other room there were about 13 people.

13 Q. Did you recognise any of those 13 people?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where were they from?

16 A. They were mostly people from villages, and there were also a

17 couple of people from Samac amongst them, also including Esad Mesic. I

18 also noticed a man from the municipality of Odzak, from Odzak. He was a

19 taxi driver, and he was wounded in both shoulders by Serbian soldiers, and

20 he told me at that time that they were forcing him to confess something

21 which he didn't do and that they took his car, his taxi, that he intended

22 to drive in the direction of Brcko.

23 Q. How did the rest of the people appear?

24 A. They looked pretty terrible. They were badly beaten, bloodied.

25 They had blood all over their trousers, their T-shirts. They had dried

Page 3933

1 blood on their wounds. They were starving and they were pretty exhausted

2 and tortured.

3 Q. These beaten people, were they soldiers? Were they wearing

4 uniforms?

5 A. No. They were civilians.

6 Q. From what ethnic groups were they, the ones you knew?

7 A. Exclusively Muslims and Croats.

8 Q. About an hour later, tell us what happens.

9 A. An hour later, Tralja appeared, who already knew me since he had

10 confiscated my car and robbed my house, and he told me, "What are you

11 doing here?"

12 Q. What did he do after that?

13 A. He brutally beat me all over my body. He threw me against metal

14 cupboards where the archives of the police station were kept at that

15 time. He really didn't care how and in what way he beat me.

16 Q. Did he beat anyone else in addition to you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who, if you recall?

19 A. On that occasion, he beat Esad Mesic.

20 Q. And when he beat you, did he use his hands or did he use a weapon

21 of any kind?

22 A. He beat me with whatever he could get his hands on, with his

23 weapons, his feet, his hands, mostly in the region of the genitals and the

24 region of my head. These were the most sensitive places.

25 Q. And how long did that beating last?

Page 3934

1 A. I can't tell you exactly, but it lasted for as long as the first

2 beating did, probably for about 15 or 20 minutes.

3 Q. Thank you. Let's continue on to about 1.00 a.m., in the early

4 morning hours. Are you familiar with persons or soldiers named Laki and

5 Nesa?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did they visit you later that day or into the early morning

8 hours?

9 A. Yes. As you said yourself, it was about 1.00 in the morning.

10 They came to get me and they told me to come out from that room. Of

11 course, that's what I did, and I followed them. They took me upstairs to

12 the first floor of the police building, to one of the offices, where they

13 told me to sit down. And then they started to beat me brutally, to ask

14 for money, ask for gold, which they had already confiscated from me. And

15 they were telling me, "You want to make a Muslim state in the heart of

16 Europe. You will never get a state like that."

17 Q. Did they use any weapons during this beating?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell the Tribunal what they did and what they used.

20 A. They mostly -- they were mostly pistols, automatic rifles, and it

21 was an everyday occurrence to place those weapons pointed at our heads or

22 in -- into our mouth.

23 Q. Did they use any knives?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell the Court about that, please.

Page 3935

1 A. I will tell you in which way they used it. They cut my ears.

2 They cut my neck. They used a screwdriver, a screwdriver for unscrewing

3 screws.

4 Q. And what did they do with that screwdriver?

5 A. They told me to -- he told me to place my hands, my palm down, on

6 the table, and then he placed the screwdriver on the upper part of my

7 hand, my fist, and he literally said, "Give me the money. Tell me where

8 the money is or I will go right through your hand," and he did. He went

9 right through my hand with the screwdriver. And I also would like to say,

10 to go back to that knife, because Laki didn't have two fingers on one

11 hand, he took a pencil and he drew the amount that his fingers were cut

12 off, he drew that same amount on my hand, and he wanted to cut my fingers

13 in the same way that his fingers were cut.

14 Q. You said he stabbed you in the hand with a screwdriver?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did that cause any scarring?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Does that scar exist to this day?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. WEINER: Your Honour?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MR. WEINER: Could the witness come and show the judges and then

23 Defence counsel the scar on his hand?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: I was wondering whether he can use the ELMO and then

25 the technicians maybe can --

Page 3936

1 MR. WEINER: I don't know if it will pick it up.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: If it won't, then he can come around.

3 [Witness complies]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe the witness can just walk around, because we

5 can't --

6 MR. WEINER:

7 Q. Mr. Dagovic, could you start off, show the Judges where the scar

8 is and then to each of the Defence counsel, each of the Defence

9 attorneys? Start off with the Judges, please. If you could approach each

10 of the Judges first?

11 [Witness complies]

12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that the

13 defendant has a small scar on his hand? Looks like the type of

14 screwdriver we'd call a Phillips screwdriver in the United States, which

15 is that cross type of screw.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: On the right hand?

17 MR. WEINER:

18 Q. Is it the right or the left?

19 A. It's on the right hand, and it was just a normal screwdriver. It

20 wasn't a star screwdriver, but just a regular one.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because we were shown the right hand. Yes.

22 JUDGE SINGH: The scar is on the back of the right hand.

23 MR. WEINER: The back.

24 JUDGE SINGH: Through the back.

25 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 3937

1 Q. Now, sir -- do you know a man by the name of --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I agree that it can be

4 stated that the witness has a scar on his hand, but we cannot state at

5 this stage that that is the cause of the scar. At this stage, it can only

6 be ascertained that there is a scar on his hand. We cannot use the

7 wording proposed by the Prosecutor. Only the Court can rule whether this

8 was the cause of the scar on his hand. And the witness's statement and

9 other things have to be taken duly into account. So please, could the

10 wording be different? Can it be stated that the witness has a scar on his

11 right hand? I agree to that.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I say something, please, Your

13 Honours?

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let the witness say what he wants to say.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I'm in a country with a very

16 good health system, I have gone through various examinations and

17 check-ups. I can give you all these papers referring to my scar, and the

18 gentleman can have a look at that. I have all of these documents.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't mind that. I'm just talking

20 about this wording that we heard, and of course evidence should be

21 provided and its probative value should be established.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

23 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'm just stating that the record -- what

24 the record reflected. There is a scar on the back of his hand, and that

25 the -- and we've already heard testimony from the witness - the record

Page 3938

1 speaks for itself - of where that scar comes from, from the stabbing with

2 the screwdriver.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The record will reflect that the Court has

4 noticed a scar on the --

5 MR. WEINER: Right hand.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: -- right hand of the witness.

7 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

8 Q. Sir, are you familiar with a man by the name of Josip Orsolic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And how do you know Josip Orsolic?

11 A. I know Josip Orsolic -- excuse me. I know him from town. He was

12 a neighbour of mine as well. He is a man of Catholic faith, a Croat, that

13 is. He was an educated man and he was a man who held high positions.

14 Q. What did he do for work?

15 A. For a while he was chief of police. Then he was general manager

16 of a firm and then he opened a company of his own.

17 Q. During those early morning hours when you were beaten by Laki and

18 Nesa, did you see Josip Orsolic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Tell the Court what you saw.

21 A. They brought him to the same room where I was. They beat him very

22 brutally. The same knife that they used for cutting my throat, my ears

23 and my fingers, they used for cutting him too, and these cuts on his body

24 were over one centimetre deep.

25 Q. What did they do with him?

Page 3939

1 A. I'm sorry. I didn't hear your question.

2 Q. What did they do with him after they beat him?

3 A. They told him that they would take him to his home now so that he

4 could give them his money. So they took him away then, and we left

5 together, and they left me in the room where they kept me before they took

6 me upstairs. And then they took him out, probably to his house, because I

7 heard the sound of a car.

8 Q. Did you ever see Josip Orsolic after that evening?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you hear whatever happened to Mr. Orsolic?

11 A. Yes. I heard that he had been killed.

12 Q. Have you ever seen him since that evening?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Let's return to the beating. The blows that you took, how much

15 force was involved in those blows during that beating?

16 A. Well, let me tell you. The blows were administered with all their

17 strength, as we would put it, and it's not only that they were strong.

18 How should I put this? They hit the right spots, most sensitive parts of

19 the body: the genitals, the face, the head. And what hurt me very much

20 was behind the neck, and I still suffer from the consequences of that

21 until the present day.

22 Q. Were you ever hit in the face?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How were you hit in the face?

25 A. They hit me with boots. They hit me in the jaw area. My jaw is

Page 3940

1 displaced on account of that.

2 Q. During this beating, did they say anything?

3 A. Yes. They were cursing our mothers, our Muslim, Croat mothers.

4 They said vulgar words. They said that they would kill all of us. They

5 were saying the worst things.

6 Q. Did they say anything about executing the educated people? Do you

7 recall that?

8 A. Yes. Yes. That's just what I wanted to say. They said that they

9 would kill all the smart Muslims and Croats so that only the stupid

10 Muslims and Croats would be left behind, but they forgot that those stupid

11 ones were smarter than them.

12 Q. How long did this beating last?

13 A. It lasted for a long time, perhaps an hour or two.

14 Q. Let us continue on in the month of May, about a week later, on May

15 13th. Were you still at the police station through the month of May?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recall a visit by the Swiss or Red Cross or someone about a

18 week after this beating?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Tell the Court about that, please.

21 A. I noticed that something was going on at the police building, or

22 rather, that they were singling people out, separating them, the very

23 beaten up ones and the old ones on one side and the other ones on the

24 other. I was lucky enough to get to that room in a condition that was a

25 bit better but that was not that good, and they established that. They

Page 3941

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Page 3942

1 also registered me in their books, if I can call them that, and I was

2 registered as being detained. As for these other people who were

3 separated from us, they were hidden. And they gave us blankets so that

4 they would show the International Red Cross that we are in a good

5 position, that we have everything.

6 Q. Did they ask you any questions - meaning the Red Cross - ask you

7 any questions concerning the conditions there?

8 A. Yes. Since we were afraid, we actually didn't know who they were,

9 we sort of -- we didn't dare tell them. But they were more interested in

10 the bloodstains on the walls and on the ceiling and on the floor. They

11 asked us what that was. Of course, we didn't dare say.

12 Q. Did they ask you about food, about bedding, any other questions?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please tell us what they asked you and how you responded.

15 A. They asked us how we were doing there, whether we had any food,

16 whether we were allowed to bathe, go to the toilet. Of course we said

17 that everything was okay, although it wasn't. We had a little --

18 Q. You had a little -- ? What was that? You had a little -- ? I'm

19 sorry. The interpreter --

20 A. I said that we had a little bucket, and we used that as a toilet,

21 because we were not allowed to go to the toilet. We could not bathe, we

22 could not shave, we didn't have anything, but we said to them that

23 everything was okay.

24 Q. Obviously, when you said everything was okay, that wasn't true.

25 Why did you have to say something to them that wasn't true?

Page 3943

1 A. Because we were afraid whether they were actually these people. I

2 don't know. The chief of the police then could send some other people to

3 see what we thought. I don't know. We were afraid, because we were

4 exposed to torture and beatings every day.

5 Q. Were you threatened prior to this visit? Were any threats made

6 or ...

7 A. Well, in principle, they said that we should say that everything

8 was all right, but -- it is obvious from the blankets that they gave us

9 that we were supposed to say that everything was all right. They forced

10 us to.

11 Q. And you indicated some of the prisoners were not interviewed on

12 that date.

13 A. They talked to the prisoners, but we did not dare say what the

14 actual situation was.

15 Q. No. You said some of the certain prisoners were not interviewed;

16 they were sent to another room.

17 A. Oh, yes.

18 Q. And what was their condition, their physical condition?

19 A. They were in very bad shape. There were elderly people among

20 them, too. That was probably the reason why they put them away.

21 Q. And when you say they were in bad shape, what had happened to them

22 to get them into this bad shape?

23 A. They had been brutally beaten, all broken up, literally. They

24 could not stand on their own feet.

25 Their faces were distorted beyond recognition from the blows that

Page 3944

1 they had received.

2 MR. WEINER: Okay.

3 Your Honour?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. WEINER: May we go into closed session for approximately five

6 minutes?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we will go into closed session -- private

8 session, rather.

9 MR. WEINER: Private session, sorry, private session.

10 [Private session]

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Page 3945

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Page 3947

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are now in open session.

4 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Dagovic, let us continue into the month of June. Let us go to

6 June 7th, to the morning of June 7th. Can you tell us what happened, as

7 best you can recall?

8 A. Sometime around 9.00 in the morning of the 7th of June, the

9 so-called specials came, soldiers from Serbia, and they selected me and

10 Dzemal Muric, nicknamed Dzemak, to come along with them.

11 Q. And what happened?

12 A. Then we got out of the police station, then we got into their red

13 BMW -- or was it their car, I doubt it. It must have been one of the

14 plundered cars. And then we went in the direction of my house, or rather

15 in the direction of Dr. Anto Majic's house, because he lived near me.

16 Q. Now, did you arrive at a location?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And at this doctor's home?

19 A. Yes, we got to Dr. Anto Majic's house.

20 Q. Did you know this Dr. Anto Majic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And who did he live with?

23 A. He lived with his wife Zlata, his son Alan, and his daughter

24 Anela.

25 Q. And do you know what occupation his wife Zlata had?

Page 3948

1 A. She did work. She was either a doctor or a nurse. She also

2 worked at the health centre.

3 Q. Were they home when you arrived?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Where were they, if you know?

6 A. As far as I know, Mrs. Majic, with her children, had already left

7 Samac before that, or rather before the attack on Samac. And Mr. Anto

8 Majic, at the beginning of the war, was in Samac. I saw him. And since

9 then -- I mean after that, I never saw him again. But I hear that he is

10 somewhere in Croatia.

11 Q. Were they Croatians by nationality?

12 A. Yes. They were Bosnian Croats, Catholics.

13 Q. And could you describe the house? Was it a nice house? Was it --

14 as best you can to the Court.

15 A. My estimate was that this was one of the nicer houses in Samac.

16 Not only that, it was really luxuriously appointed. That is to say, the

17 right kind of house, as we would put it.

18 Q. What did you and Dzemal Muric do at that house?

19 A. On the orders issued by these soldiers, or rather these specials,

20 among who was a soldier from Samac, a member of the 4th Detachment, we had

21 to throw all the things out of Dr. Majic's house on to the terrace of the

22 house. When I say things, I'm referring to books, glassware, china.

23 Everything that was in the cupboards and closets, we had to throw that

24 out. And they left the piano so that they could play with it, so that

25 they would have fun with it, so that they would have more fun, generally

Page 3949

1 speaking.

2 Q. Was there any search done of that house?

3 A. They probably searched that house, but while these things were

4 being carried out, we found a certain amount of money.

5 Q. How much money did you find?

6 A. We found a thousand Deutschmarks.

7 Q. What happened to that thousand Deutschmarks?

8 A. Since they were sitting on sofas like sheriffs while we were

9 working, at one moment, I dropped on the floor an ink pad for stamps, and

10 inside was -- were a thousand Deutschmarks. Of course, they noticed that,

11 and I handed these thousand Deutschmarks over to them. They were

12 screaming, because they were so happy, like madmen, because perhaps they

13 had not seen a thousand Deutschmarks before. So they split it up. It

14 wasn't a single thousand Deutschemark bill. It was several bills. So

15 they shared this among themselves; they split it up.

16 Q. Was there any itemisation made of the property, any receipts left

17 for the money, any sort of documentation of that property that was in that

18 house?

19 A. No.

20 Q. While we are on the subject, sir, were you ever forced to loot

21 homes as part of your forced labour?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was this prior to arrest?

24 A. When I was arrested, or rather when we were being taken from the

25 camp.

Page 3950

1 Q. Now, how many homes were you forced to loot or plunder?

2 A. Well, my estimate is that it was tens of houses. I remember some

3 of the houses in particular because I knew these people well.

4 Q. Were these homes -- or actually, of what nationality were these

5 homes that were looted? The people who owned them or lived there, of what

6 nationality were they?

7 A. No. The owners were Bosniak Muslims and Croat Catholics.

8 Q. Did you ever loot any homes owned by Serbs?

9 A. No. No. We were just filling them with plundered goods.

10 Q. When you looted these homes, what type of objects did you steal?

11 A. Mostly it was technical equipment, precious jewellery, sometimes

12 furniture, foodstuffs, money, fuel.

13 Q. When you say "technical equipment," do you mean like

14 electrical-type appliances, or what do you mean?

15 A. Yes. I am referring to music, like hi-fi sets, cameras, and

16 refrigerators, various ovens, washing machines and other appliances.

17 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, would you like to take a break here?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's 11.00, and we'll continue at 11.30

19 hours.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Examination-in-chief by the Prosecution.

23 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Dagovic, before we went into our recess, you were discussing

25 how you were forced to loot or steal from the homes of Croatians and

Page 3951

1 Muslims.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Aziz Hacimovic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who was that person? Tell the Court.

6 A. Aziz Hacimovic, called Ciger, worked at the petrol station.

7 Q. Is it a man or a woman?

8 A. It's a man.

9 Q. And could you tell us what happened in relation to his home?

10 A. Yes. At one time a police officer called Pero Stefanovic, I think

11 his last name is, and he told us that we have to go with them. He came

12 with two other police officers. Myself, Antica Bauman, and Sabah Seric

13 went with them. We drove towards the part of the town that is called

14 Donja Mahala, to the house of Mr. Aziz Hacimovic and his mother. We went

15 into the house and we were ordered to take out those things that they

16 happened to like, and those things were mostly foods, technical equipment,

17 and money and gold.

18 Since Mr. Hacimovic worked at the gas station, they also found

19 petrol, which he had probably brought to his house to have a supply of his

20 own, because before the war there was a shortage of petrol, and we also

21 had to take that. And I know that Aziz's old mother, who was a woman of

22 perhaps 60 or -- between 60 and 70 years of age, she begged me and cried,

23 asking me to leave at least some of the food. On that occasion I managed

24 to leave one litre of oil and a little bit of flour for her, and

25 everything else we took away.

Page 3952

1 Q. So when you arrived at that home to loot it, his mother was home,

2 his mother was in the house?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And did she ask them not to take anything, or just you?

5 A. She begged them, but since she had the opportunity, as she knew

6 me, because she is part of an old family in Samac, so she knew my family,

7 she knew me, so she asked me to leave something for her. And you can

8 imagine how I felt when she did that.

9 Q. Now, do you know a man by the name of Rade Borovo?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, when a witness, because of the terms of

11 expression in everyday language, says, "You can imagine how I felt," can

12 you please let him explain how he felt?

13 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

14 Q. Could you explain how you felt at that time, sir, when you -- when

15 the woman was crying and pleading with you?

16 A. I felt terrible, in the sense that, in other words, at that time,

17 I was the same as they were, a looter, a criminal, even though I wasn't

18 like that. I was forced to do that. So I had to do what they told me to

19 do. I felt very bad. It seemed to me as if I didn't have any strength.

20 I felt like I would fall. That's how I felt.

21 Q. You indicated the police took you to loot that home. Were those

22 local police officers from Bosanski Samac?

23 A. Yes, amongst them was this person called Pero.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch his last name.

25 A. But he was an active police officer before the war so they were

Page 3953

1 police officers.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreter said they didn't catch the last

3 name.

4 MR. WEINER: That's what I was going to ask, Your Honour.

5 Q. Do you know the last name of this Pero, this police officer named

6 Pero?

7 A. First I said Pero Stefanovic, but he's actually Pero Krstanovic

8 and he was from Novo Selo. It's a village near Samac.

9 Q. When you went to these numbers of homes to loot, what did you do

10 with the items after you took them out of homes?

11 A. We loaded them into a truck. The gold, they took in the front

12 with them, where the driver was, and I don't know what they did with that

13 gold and the money. But I know that we took the items and the food. Some

14 of them we took to the police station, to the SUP, and the rest they took

15 somewhere else. I don't know where, because they dropped us off on the

16 way back at the police station or the camp.

17 Q. When you say "they," "they" took or these people that appear to be

18 supervising this, who is "they"? Were these police? Were they soldiers?

19 Who is "they"?

20 A. On that occasion, they were police officers, as I have already

21 said. So when I say "they," I mean them, the police officers.

22 Q. What about on the other occasions?

23 A. I will also tell you about another occasion. At one time as you

24 already mentioned, Rade Borovo -- Rade was his first name, and Borovo was

25 his nickname, that's what they called him. He took us to the house of

Page 3954

1 Muhamed Kuburic in the same part of town, in Donja Mahala. Mr. Kuburic

2 had a very nice house. It was nicely decorated. He also had a shop. And

3 on orders of Rade Borovo, we were forced to load coal and articles of food

4 from that shop of his. And from that shop, we took the items to the

5 garage of Rade Borovo. The garage was part of the building complex known

6 as 62, sezdesetdvojka. That is what we called the buildings. And

7 Mr. Rade was a member of the 4th Detachment.

8 Q. What type of shop did the victim of this looting or plunder have?

9 A. It was like a general store. All kinds of food articles were

10 being sold there.

11 Q. You indicated that you did a looting with a member of the 4th

12 Detachment, some police officers. Were any of these lootings involving

13 the soldiers, whether they are the local soldiers or the Serbian

14 specials?

15 A. This time, there was Rade Borovo. He was a member of the 4th

16 Detachment, but we also went on several occasions with members of the

17 Special Forces, with the soldiers from the Republic of Serbia, and also we

18 went frequently with the soldiers of the so-called 4th Detachment. At one

19 time, I went to Odzak. That time we were taken there by the members of

20 the 4th Detachment.

21 Q. And what did you do in Odzak?

22 A. When Odzak fell, when it fell into the hands of the paramilitaries

23 of Republika Srpska, we went there to empty the houses, as they popularly

24 called it. Since the Serbian soldiers were afraid of bombs, which were

25 sometimes placed inside the door or at the entrance to the houses, we were

Page 3955

1 the first to enter the house. They probably thought if we get killed,

2 it's not too much of a shame. So that's -- on those occasions, we mostly

3 carried out coal, furniture, other items, the equipment and the radiators

4 for central heating, the furnaces, we even stripped the parquet flooring

5 from the houses and took that away.

6 Q. How many of these houses in Odzak were you forced to loot or

7 plunder?

8 A. Tens of houses. I don't know the number but it was a lot of

9 houses. And this is what it would more or less look like. When the truck

10 would go, there would be two or three of us forced to do the forced

11 labour. The truck would stop from one house to the next. In one street

12 there could be 50 houses, 20, 10, depending on the street, and then we

13 would enter into each of the houses and carry out the things that they

14 liked.

15 Q. Do you know whether these houses were populated by or had been

16 owned by people of what nationality?

17 A. Since the homes were abandoned, we even found the remains of an

18 uneaten lunch at the kitchen table. Then we could -- we are talking about

19 homes of Muslims and the homes of Croats.

20 Q. What did you do with this property after you loaded it -- I assume

21 you loaded it on a truck, this property from Odzak, that came from the

22 homes in Odzak?

23 A. Well, whether the 4th Detachment or the police issued certificates

24 to its soldiers, I don't know, but I know that certificates were issued

25 permitting soldiers or police officers to take coal to their own houses,

Page 3956

1 the coal plundered from those Muslim and Croat houses. So that means that

2 we would take those items to the houses of the police officers and the

3 soldiers. We would have to unload those goods and also take the coal to

4 the cellar or wherever the proper place was for that coal to be kept.

5 Q. Sir, were you involved in the looting of any of the property owned

6 by Muhamed or Hasan Bicic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell the Court about that, please.

9 A. Since they knew I worked at the pizzeria, at Hasan Bicic's

10 pizzeria, they assumed that I knew everything that he had, and I did know

11 everything that he had, because I told you yesterday that we were like

12 brothers. They took me to his house, where there was a large storage room

13 where he kept goods: food articles, beverages, all the things that were

14 necessary for the operation of a restaurant. I had to load these

15 goods, on several occasions, had to load them into trucks and take them

16 away.

17 Also, in the yard of his house there was a garage which was

18 locked. I had to break down the door, and that's where we kept the

19 petrol. As I said before, since there had been a petrol shortage and it

20 was difficult to get petrol, we had a small supply of petrol there so that

21 we could drive the cars.

22 This was probably not enough for them, so they would also take me

23 to the pizzeria, and at the pizzeria I also had to load the items that I

24 had previously, before I had been arrested and taken to the camp, had,

25 with the help of my brother, and with the help of Enes Mahic, another

Page 3957

1 worker at the pizzeria, which I had taken down into the cellar, with the

2 intention of saving some of the things so that they would not be plundered

3 and robbed. So those things I had to load into the truck once again so

4 that they could take those things away, and I don't know where they took

5 them.

6 Q. And when you said "they," who were you referring to?

7 A. I am thinking about police officers and sometimes soldiers of the

8 4th Detachment.

9 Q. How did you feel about looting your close friend's property?

10 A. I felt as if I were robbing my own property, and by that I mean to

11 say that this is where, at that pizzeria -- the pizzeria was a place where

12 I earned my daily bread, and I could see that this tower of my source of

13 income was being toppled in all this looting.

14 Q. Sir, let us return to the doctor's home on June 7th.

15 MR. WEINER: And at this time, Your Honour, can we return to

16 closed session?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll go into private session.

18 MR. WEINER: Private session, I'm sorry.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 3958

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13 Page 3958 redacted private session.

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Page 3959

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

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9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE MUMBA: We're back in open session.

19 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

20 Q. You were brought back to the police station; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. As of this date, you had now been held in the police station for

23 one month, a little over one month, sir?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did anyone tell you why you were being held?

Page 3960

1 A. As I've already said, I was taken to an informative talk, and it

2 lasted a few months. There was no particular reason other than the fact

3 that I was a Bosniak, a Muslim. I don't believe that I had done anything

4 to anybody. I was young. I was 22 years old.

5 Q. Were you a member of the military at that time?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, you're back at the station. What were you doing after you

8 got back to the station?

9 A. I returned to the station and after we came back, we immediately

10 left for another job, and this other job was to clean weapons. I cleaned

11 weapons, and at one point, Slobodan Miljkovic, called "Lugar," appeared.

12 He looked like a madman, and by that I mean that he was enraged, his eyes

13 were bloodshot and he was drunk. He started to abuse people and to beat

14 them. One of those beaten and abused people was Ridvan Dzakic, called

15 Ridvo. He's a cousin of mine.

16 Q. What did he do to Mr. Dzakic?

17 A. He beat him. He beat him with everything, including his silencer

18 on his sniper rifle, which I estimate was about 40 centimetres in length.

19 He used all objects that he found to beat him.

20 Q. After he beat Mr. Dzakic, what did he do?

21 A. Then he started to beat me. He literally said, "You Brkica, you

22 with the beard, come here." And I went up to him and he asked me what did

23 I do. I meant -- I thought that with that question he meant what I was

24 doing at that moment, at the time that I was at the police station, and I

25 said I was cleaning weapons. And he started to beat me like an animal.

Page 3961

1 He beat me with all kinds of things, amongst other things a suspension

2 device from the car which he found on the floor. He beat me with metal

3 bars. He also beat me with a tool, a spanner. It was a very difficult --

4 a very heavy and large spanner. And he beat me in the area of the head,

5 also all over my body, on my genitals. This wasn't enough for him. Each

6 time, he would pick me up off the floor, pretty high, and then throw me

7 back down on the ground. This even wasn't enough for him. Then he would

8 do the same thing again. He would lift me up into the air and then throw

9 me down over his knee. Maybe he wanted to break my back. I don't know.

10 [redacted].

11 Q. [redacted], let me ask you a couple of questions.

12 When you say he hit you with a suspension device, is that commonly known

13 as a shock absorber?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he do anything to your teeth?

16 A. Yes. He took out my teeth.

17 Q. How did he take out your teeth?

18 A. Since we were repairing cars there, that is to say that there were

19 tools there as well. He pulled my teeth out with pliers. He broke my

20 teeth with the barrel of an automatic rifle, or rather with the sight of

21 an automatic rifle.

22 Q. How many teeth were pulled from your mouth?

23 A. Four.

24 Q. How long did this beating last?

25 A. Well, according to my estimate, could have been around half an

Page 3962

1 hour or so.

2 Q. [redacted]?

3 A. Yes. I did say that, but I would like to go back to myself

4 again. When I was lying on the ground then, he took a pistol out, TT

5 762. He cocked it, he put it against my forehead with the intention of

6 killing me. At that moment, his colleague, a soldier, appeared, another

7 special like he was, nicknamed Debeli. And then this man addressed

8 Slobodan Miljkovic, called Lugar, and said, "It's all right. Don't kill

9 him." And he walked up to me, and he said that I should go to the

10 station. [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]. And then he started

15 beating me ferociously, like an animal, and that's when he put the pistol

16 against my forehead with the intention of killing me, probably, but ...

17 Q. [redacted]?

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23. [redacted] So

24 Lugar started taking it out on him. He started beating him. He called

25 him a Ustasha Croat motherfucker. He beat him with all sorts of things

Page 3963

1 and in all parts of the body.

2 Q. After Debeli stops him from shooting you, what does Lugar do with

3 the gun?

4 A. Lugar, as I said, [redacted]

5 [redacted], he took out that same pistol and put it on his head, and

6 he fired. Only a click sound was heard. He was furious. I realised that

7 his pupils had opened and that his eyes were really big, like the eyes of

8 a savage. He again cocked the pistol, and the bullet fell on to the

9 ground. He took it, and it was obvious that the bullet had not fired.

10 Again he cocked his pistol, and he fired into the air. And this was --

11 this confirmed that the gun was all right but that there was something

12 wrong with the bullet. [redacted], "You're

13 really lucky today. I'm not going to kill you today." And then he left.

14 Q. When he fired into the ceiling, did the gun actually fire,

15 discharge at that time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On the previous time you said he cocked it and the bullet fell out

18 or slipped out, did it fall out of the front of the gun, the barrel, or

19 from the chamber? Or was it one where you cocked it and it fell out of

20 the chamber? Please explain what you mean.

21 A. A bullet cannot fall out of a barrel. That would have meant that

22 it was fired. He opened the pistol backwards, he cocked his pistol again

23 after that, and then the bullet fell out of the barrel, and then this --

24 and then it was obvious that the hammer had hit the capsule of the bullet

25 and that the bullet had not fired. [redacted]

Page 3964

1 [redacted]

2 Q. At this point, when he leaves, when Lugar leaves, what is your

3 condition [redacted]?

4 A. [redacted]I - I don't

5 know how - barely walked, escorted by a guard to the cell where I was.

6 Q. What happened once you got back to the cell?

7 A. Since there were around 49 persons in my cell, I'm trying to say

8 that we did not have enough room to sit. We had to stand on one foot

9 only, several of us, and then we'd take turns. The prisoners, the others

10 in this room, they made room for me so that I could be put on the ground.

11 We didn't have any beds, of course, but they let me lie down, and they

12 stood this way.

13 Q. What was your physical condition at that time as you were lying on

14 the ground?

15 A. I was in a very bad physical condition. I was bleeding from the

16 nose, ears and mouth. Every part of my body was in pain, as if somebody

17 had taken the flesh off my bones. When these blows, as I would put it,

18 had cooled off, then it hurt so badly that I was swearing at the guards,

19 trying to provoke them so that they would kill me. However, one of the

20 specials said to me, "We are not going to kill you. We are going to let

21 you suffer."

22 Q. Why did you want them to kill you?

23 A. Because I had these terrible pains. I could not breathe. I was

24 bleeding from the mouth. I felt terrible.

25 Q. How long did you remain lying on that floor? Tell the Tribunal.

Page 3965

1 A. I remained lying until the next day, that is to say the 8th of

2 June, 1992, and I was moaning so badly from the pain that the policeman on

3 duty called Dimitrij called an ambulance, or rather a doctor, and he

4 came. The doctor who came -- actually, I can't remember his name, his

5 first name, but his last name was Stevic, he was the son of Stevo Stevic,

6 who was a doctor in Bosanski Samac before the war. He examined me, and I

7 know that he looked at me, and he said that I had to go to hospital. And

8 then he left. After perhaps about an hour, an ambulance came and they

9 carried a stretcher into the building where I was, or rather the cell

10 where I was, they put me on this stretcher and they carried me out,

11 accompanied by inmates, or rather the inmates carried me out - it was

12 probably too hard for them - and they drove me to the hospital.

13 Q. Which hospital did you go to, and where was that hospital located?

14 A. There was one single hospital in Samac. I think the street used

15 to be called the street of Edvard Kardelj. It was on the outskirts of

16 Samac, on the road to the villages of Crkvina and Pisarevo, on the

17 right-hand side of that road.

18 Q. When you got to the hospital, did anyone treat you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Tell the Court what happened at the hospital.

21 A. When I got to the hospital - I must say this once again - I was

22 received cordially and nicely by the doctor of Serb ethnicity called Mirko

23 Sisic. I keep saying this. I will never forget the way this man received

24 me. I know that he said, furious, "What are they doing to our people?"

25 I was taken to a room where there were two other patients who were

Page 3966

1 ethnic Serbs, and I must say that, with the assistance of Dr. Mirko Sisic,

2 I had all the medicine required and everything I needed. What Dr. Sisic

3 underlined to me, or rather, what he said to me, was that I should never

4 say to anyone that I was a prisoner but that I should say that I had been

5 in a traffic accident, and that's what I did, because in the hospital, in

6 the hospital -- actually, soldiers were coming to that hospital, Serbs

7 soldiers, so I had to be careful.

8 Q. What did they do to you in the hospital to diagnose what your

9 problems were? Did they -- what did they do when you got there? What

10 type of tests did they run, if you recall?

11 A. Mr. Sisic ordered an x-ray to be made straight away of the lungs

12 and the bones. It was established that my ribs were broken. It was

13 established that my pelvic bone was broken, and therefore I could not

14 walk. That's why I was in a wheelchair.

15 Q. Did you have any problems with your lungs?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell the Court.

18 A. Since my lungs were bleeding, there was some kind of an infection,

19 or rather, pneumonia. In addition to all of that, I had to be treated for

20 pneumonia. And this also has to do with sleeping on the cold floor, on

21 the concrete floor in the camp.

22 Q. Did you have any lung injury which caused the bleeding?

23 A. Yes. Probably, or rather, as he had put it to me, a rib was stuck

24 in the lung, so that is to say that this broken rib had punctured the

25 lung.

Page 3967

1 Q. So you have a pelvis bone, broken ribs, a punctured lung. What

2 about the rest of your body, the rest of your back? Any other injuries to

3 your back, to your hands, to your feet, to your legs? Any other injuries,

4 sir?

5 A. Yes. I just wanted to say that. The finger on my right hand was

6 broken.

7 Q. Were you able to walk?

8 A. No.

9 Q. What did you use to get around in the hospital?

10 A. As I said previously, in a wheelchair.

11 Q. How long were you in that hospital?

12 A. I was in hospital from the 8th of June until the 8th of July, that

13 is to say, one month.

14 Q. How were you treated for the pneumonia? Tell the Court.

15 A. As I said, in view of the privileges accorded to me by Mr. Sisic,

16 I had everything. I got IV twice a day, probably some kind of medicine

17 and something to make me stronger, that was administered in the vein; and

18 also I got penicillin in the morning and in the evening, 60 milligrams;

19 and also I often got painkiller shots. And what was another privilege:

20 There was a Muslim woman who was working there. She was my neighbour.

21 She was a nurse. So in addition to Dr. Sisic, who really did his best to

22 have me cured, she gave me extra painkiller shots.

23 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with a man by the name of Hasan

24 Hadzialijagic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3968

1 Q. While you were in the hospital, did you see Hasan Hadzialijagic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How old was that gentleman, approximately?

4 A. That gentleman was perhaps over 50 at the time. I knew that man

5 well, because he was a native of Samac, like myself.

6 Q. Why did you see him at the hospital? Tell the Court.

7 A. He was in very bad shape, like myself. He told me that he had

8 been beaten by the Serb soldiers, that he was brought to hospital. What I

9 managed to see on him was that he had trouble breathing, that he had

10 sustained bodily injuries, that he was black and blue in the body, as we

11 would put it. And there is something that remains imprinted in my memory,

12 and I still see this until the present day. He had these big scars on his

13 stomach where they had extinguished cigarettes. I know that he could not

14 go to the toilet. I don't know why he couldn't. Perhaps due to the blows

15 he had sustained. I don't know.

16 Q. Also during that month that you were in the hospital, did you ever

17 see a man by the name of -- or nicknamed Suma?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How old was Suma?

20 A. Suma was in his 40s, approximately. I knew that man well because

21 he lived in my street, where my maternal grandmother lived too, my

22 mother's mother.

23 Q. And was Suma incarcerated with you?

24 A. Suma was incarcerated at the Territorial Defence headquarters of

25 the former Yugoslav People's Army, that is to say, in the other camp

Page 3969

1 across the street from the SUP.

2 Q. What about Hasan Hadzialijagic, whom you just mentioned? Was he

3 incarcerated with you?

4 A. As far as I know, Hasan was brought from home. He was beaten up

5 in the street. And after that he was probably locked up. I didn't see

6 him after that.

7 Q. Let's return to Suma. You saw Suma at the hospital?

8 A. Yes. Suma was in the same room where I was, opposite my bed.

9 That's where he was lying.

10 Q. In what condition was Suma, if you can best describe it?

11 A. Well, let me tell you. As we would put it, he was a bag of

12 bones. I don't know if he weighed 40 kilos, perhaps 50. He was very

13 skinny. It is true that he was thin before, but at that time he was

14 really skinny. He could not walk. He was throwing up. He couldn't eat.

15 He was in very, very, very bad shape.

16 Q. Did he tell you what had happened to him to cause him to be in

17 this very bad shape?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did he say?

20 A. He said to me that he had been beaten at the Territorial Defence

21 building and that the specials and the soldiers beat him; among others,

22 Slobodan Miljkovic, nicknamed Lugar, that he beat him, and when he beat

23 him with his hands and weapons, and he kicked him with his feet. And even

24 that wasn't enough. He jumped on his stomach. So Suma was lying on his

25 back and this person was jumping on his stomach, with all his weight.

Page 3970

1 Q. What happened to Suma at the hospital?

2 A. Suma soon died. He died in my arms, because he was suffering

3 terrible pain. Every time he was in greater pain, I would come up to him,

4 and that time I lifted his head a bit so that he would get a bit of air.

5 Actually, I did not have any experience with dying persons. And he was

6 struggling with his own soul, and he died in my arms. I called

7 Dr. Sisic. He came and concluded that Suma had died, that he had passed

8 away.

9 Q. When did he die in relation to his telling you that Lugar had

10 beaten him, Lugar and the other paramilitaries had beaten him?

11 A. Well, after a few days maybe.

12 Q. Of what ethnic nationality was Suma and Hasan Hadzialijagic?

13 A. Both of them were Bosniak Muslims by ethnicity.

14 Q. You just mentioned Lugar. Do you know where Lugar came from?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Please tell us.

17 A. He came from Kragujevac, and he liked it when they called him

18 Sumadinac, a man from Sumadija.

19 Q. Did he tell you or tell anyone what he did in Kragujevac?

20 A. Yes. I heard -- actually, I overheard some of the soldiers, as

21 they were talking amongst themselves when I was cleaning the corridors or

22 distributing food, I heard that Slobodan Miljkovic, nicknamed Lugar, was a

23 boxer and that he was boxing for a club in Kragujevac, and I must admit

24 that he looked like a boxer, too.

25 Q. Why do you say he looked like a boxer?

Page 3971

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Page 3972

1 A. Well, he was very well-developed, and he had a boxer's nose.

2 Q. Meaning a flat nose or --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you ever present when Lugar murdered anyone?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Tell the Court, please, what happened.

7 A. I was taken to work at Hrvatska Tisina, at the stadium. I had to

8 take the parts off an abandoned car, an old abandoned car there. At one

9 moment, a truck came with people in the truck. I assumed that they were

10 all ethnic Croats, because I did not know these people and since Tisina

11 was a Croat village. Well, this is where Miljkovic took a man out of the

12 truck, an elderly man, and he simply took out his rifle -- took out his

13 pistol and killed him.

14 Q. Where did he shoot him with this pistol? Where did he shoot the

15 victim?

16 A. As far as I managed to see, he shot him in the chest, or between

17 the chest and the head. Was it the neck?

18 Q. The man died?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you ever see Lugar beating prisoners?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: And can we have the time period when the killing

22 happened?

23 MR. WEINER: Sorry, Your Honour.

24 Q. You heard Her Honour's question. Can you tell us when this

25 occurred? Was this prior to your arrest, after your arrest, if you can

Page 3973

1 even tell us a month?

2 A. No, no. This was after the arrest, but I can't remember the

3 date. At any rate, it was after I was in hospital. I know that for sure,

4 because after I was in hospital, I was assigned to the garage. I was in

5 the working group that repaired cars. I went to take parts off cars.

6 This was after the month of July, that is. Perhaps it was the month of

7 August. I really can't remember the exact date.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Because I was wondering about the time period,

9 because I was wondering whether the witness -- after he was released from

10 hospital, did he go back to the detention?

11 MR. WEINER: We were going to get back to that after Lugar.

12 Q. Let me just jump ahead on a few questions. We will step away from

13 Lugar for a moment. You left the hospital on what date?

14 A. Hospital? Around the 7th of July, a policeman named Dragan

15 Stefanovic from the village of Crkvina came to me and he asked me, or

16 rather said to me that the Red Cross was asking whether I wanted to go for

17 an exchange. And I said yes. And he said that he would pick me up. And

18 then on the next day, the 8th of June [sic], he came back to collect me

19 and took me back to hospital.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness first said the

21 7th of July and then the 8th of June.

22 MR. WEINER:

23 Q. The next day, he took you -- you said he took you back to the

24 hospital?

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Weiner, can you -- we are told by

Page 3974

1 the interpreter that the witness first said the 7th of July and then the

2 8th of June. Can you clarify that, please?

3 MR. WEINER: I'm trying to. I'm confused. Okay.

4 Q. The police officer visited you on July 7th?

5 A. Yes, the 7th of July. Perhaps I made a mistake, I'm sorry.

6 Q. What happens to you after you speak to the police officer?

7 A. As I said, he asked me whether I wanted to go to be exchanged. He

8 said to me that this was a question that was put by the Red Cross. And I

9 said yes. And he left, and he said that he'd come and get me. He said

10 that he would come back on the next day, that is to say the 8th of July.

11 He drove me away in a car. I know whose car it was. It was a civilian

12 car. And he drove me back to the camp.

13 Q. And when you say he drove you back to the camp, where did he take

14 you on July 8th?

15 A. To the police station.

16 Q. Now, how long did you remain in the police station?

17 A. Until I was exchanged on November 5th, 1992, which means that I

18 was deceived.

19 Q. On July 7th, you mean? When you say you were deceived, did you

20 mean on July 7th, when he asked you if you wanted to be exchanged?

21 A. Yes, precisely. They told me I was going to be exchanged. And I

22 said yes. And under those circumstances, I left the hospital.

23 Q. But not for the exchange, would you have left the hospital?

24 A. No. Because I wasn't really fit at that point to leave the

25 hospital. And if you permit me to say, Dr. Sisic -- after that police

Page 3975

1 officer left, Dr. Sisic told me that I had made a mistake and that I

2 wasn't fit enough, well enough, to leave the hospital and that I will

3 probably not be exchanged. Perhaps he spoke on the basis of his

4 experience. I don't know.

5 Q. Between July 8th and when you were exchanged on November 5th, as

6 best as you can determine, when did the murder of the elderly man occur?

7 A. Like I say, perhaps it was in mid-July or in August. I know it

8 was very hot later. I remember that very well.

9 Q. Let us return to Lugar, Mr. Miljkovic. Did you ever see Lugar

10 beating any prisoners at the police station?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Tell the Court what you saw Lugar doing at the police station.

13 A. He used to beat the prisoners. It seems to me that he was the one

14 who beat the prisoners the most. Do I need to say the names of those

15 people?

16 Q. You can mention some of them that he beat.

17 A. I would start with a father, Father Jozo Puskaric, who was a

18 parish priest in Hrvatska Tisina. He beat him fiercely. He beat him like

19 an animal. He told him, "God sent you to teach people the faith and to

20 calm people down, and instead, you are inciting them against the Serbs,"

21 which was not true. I know that that man -- both of his eyes and ears

22 were closed from the beating. He was swollen from the beating. He was

23 blue all over. He had lost a lot of weight, but he was psychologically

24 very strong. I don't know if it was of some help to him that he was a man

25 of religion. I don't know.

Page 3976

1 Q. This priest that Lugar beat, did he get along with the other

2 prisoners, such as the Muslim prisoners?

3 A. Yes. That man was an inspiration to us. I viewed him -- since he

4 was older than me, I looked upon him as if he were my father. He was an

5 honest man. And he said -- when we managed to bring in food with the help

6 of good guards, we would give this food to him so that he could distribute

7 it amongst us nicely so that each one of us would receive something,

8 because we were hungry most of the time, and perhaps we would even dare to

9 take a greater, a larger share, but he was the one who would give

10 everybody the portion so that everybody would receive equal parts.

11 Some of the prisoners mentioned suicide. However, he said that

12 this is something that should not be considered, that there will come a

13 time when these stories will need to be told, and now I say thank God that

14 moment is here.

15 Q. In addition to the priest, who else did Lugar beat at the police

16 station?

17 A. He beat a lot of people, but what sticks in my mind is a

18 professor, a teacher of English. His name was Mirko. I don't know his

19 surname. I know that he was from Croatia, I think from Slavonski Brod.

20 He used to tell him that he was a Ustasha spy, and he beat him a lot, so

21 that this man's head was twice the size, because it was swollen so much

22 from the beating. I know that he made him to translate the rules of the

23 -- the code of conduct of the former Yugoslav army in order to be sure

24 that he was an English teacher, even though everybody knew that.

25 Q. What was his age, if you recall?

Page 3977

1 A. He was between 40 and 50 years old, but I'm not really sure.

2 Q. What did Lugar beat you and all these other prisoners with?

3 A. As I've said before, he didn't care how he beat us, where he beat

4 us, what he beat us with. He used everything. But not only his, but the

5 favourite of others also was when they tied us to a chair so that they

6 would push our feet through towards the back of the chair, and that's how

7 they would tie us up, and then they would beat us on the soles of our feet

8 and also on the backs of our hands so that our soles and the backs of our

9 hands were very swollen, and it was very painful. But compared to the

10 others, Lugar was very destructive, and I mean that in the sense that, as

11 I've already said, he was a boxer, so he would mostly strike us on our

12 head. He would also beat us on the other parts of the body. And when he

13 hit us, the -- we would fall down. He would use metal bars, guns, the

14 baseball bats, anything that was near, near him.

15 MR. WEINER: With the Court's permission, could he demonstrate how

16 they were tied in the chairs and had to sit so they could beat their hands

17 and feet?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 MR. WEINER:

20 Q. Mr. Dagovic, could you demonstrate as best you could with that

21 chair?

22 A. It looked something like this. This chair is a little wider. The

23 other chairs were narrower. So we would have to sit like this, place our

24 feet towards the back. We would be tied up here and also our legs would

25 be tied in the back. And then they would beat us on the soles of our

Page 3978

1 feet. Of course, we would have to take our shoes off. Of course, this

2 chair is broader and it's more luxurious than the chairs they used. So

3 this is how they would tie us up.

4 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that the witness

5 is sitting with his feet under him, under his buttocks, facing the rear,

6 facing behind him, which would give someone the opportunity to strike the

7 soles of the feet from behind.

8 Q. Were you also struck on your hands, too? Did you have to --

9 A. [No audible response]

10 Q. Did you have to keep your hands out? Were your hands tied?

11 Explain what you had to do with your hands.

12 A. Our hands were tied, yes, depending on the kind of chair, whether

13 it had arm rests or not. If it did have an arm rest, this is how they

14 would be tied. If not, this is how they would be tied, with our palms on

15 the inside so they could beat us on the backs of our hands.

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, the witness just demonstrated that his

17 hands would be tied, the palms somehow behind, and his palms would be

18 facing outward so his hands could be beaten along the backs of his hands.

19 The palms would be inward so he could be beaten on the backs of his hands.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, as demonstrated.

21 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

22 Q. Where did these beatings occur at the police station?

23 A. Since the police station, before the war, had a part that was a

24 prison, a part of it was a prison, the rest of us were detained in

25 offices, so we would be beaten in these offices. We would be beaten in

Page 3979

1 the corridors, in the yard, as I say, in the yard that was behind the

2 police station.

3 Q. How many people did Lugar take out at any one time to beat?

4 A. According to my estimate, I think that there was not a single

5 prisoner that Lugar did not beat.

6 Q. Were people beaten one at a time or in groups?

7 A. He would beat people in groups and he would beat them one by one.

8 He would simply enter the room and he would ask you your name, and you

9 would say your name and then he would beat you; and then he would go to

10 the next person, ask them their name, and then they would beat them.

11 Mainly he disliked the names that he was told because they were not

12 Serbian names.

13 If I am permitted to add, I know that there was a person who was

14 detained. He was a German citizen. He was a driver. He beat him a lot;

15 not only he, but all the others beat this person a lot. They told him he

16 was a homosexual. The man told me that they had taken 4.000 German marks

17 from him, that they had taken his truck, that they had taken his

18 passport.

19 With all that beating, when the police officers, when the soldiers

20 would come, we had to sing Chetnik songs. I never used to sing them

21 before. I didn't know them. But there I was forced to learn them. He,

22 however, was given five minutes' time to learn a Chetnik song, which of

23 course is impossible, because the man didn't speak our language. They

24 really beat him a lot. He had nothing to do with anything. I know that

25 at one time they said, "We were killed -- Hitler killed us in World War

Page 3980

1 II," and now they were retaliating for this, even though this man had

2 nothing to do with Republika Srpska, with Yugoslavia, with anything. So

3 there was no reason to do that to him.

4 Q. How often did you have to sing Chetnik --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me, my colleague. This is page 66, line

7 14. We heard that the witness said -- referring to Republika Srpska, he

8 said, in his own native language, "so-called Republika Srpska." Could my

9 learned friend clarify whether this witness said that or not, with regard

10 to the Republika Srpska. Just as a matter of clarification in the

11 transcript. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

13 MR. WEINER: Would you like me to do that, or do you want to wait

14 for cross-examination to have counsel do it, or --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Because I think it's a question of correcting

16 the transcript, if he did say that. Maybe it wasn't just interpreted.

17 MR. WEINER:

18 Q. Sir, when you testified that this German that was a prisoner had

19 nothing to do with the Republika Srpska, did you state "Republika Srpska"

20 or "the so-called Republika Srpska"?

21 A. I said "so-called Republika Srpska," because it was made by force

22 at that time, and this is as clear as day. I can also say that at that

23 time, the Serb formations were paramilitary formations, because in 1992

24 there was no Republika Srpska, if the gentleman didn't know this. And

25 Bosnia was a recognised state.

Page 3981

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. If the gentleman didn't know that.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry. I wish to thank the witness. Maybe I

4 didn't know. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, no. You're not supposed to do that,

6 Mr. Pantelic. Please behave yourself, okay?

7 MR. WEINER:

8 Q. Sir, how often did you have to sing Chetnik or Serbian patriotic

9 songs?

10 A. I don't think that a single day passed that we didn't sing them,

11 several times a day perhaps. Mostly when the Special Forces came, when

12 the soldiers came, then we had to sing them out loud so that everybody

13 could hear that.

14 Q. How long did you have to sing them? How long were these singing

15 sessions?

16 A. You know what? Sometimes they would come in and just say, "Song,"

17 and we knew what to do, and then we would not stop until they said,

18 "Stop." So when one song would finish, we would start again.

19 Q. What was the longest period, if you can recall, that you had to

20 sing these songs?

21 A. I don't know precisely, but we would sing those songs for hours;

22 not every day for hours, but there were times when we did sing them for

23 hours.

24 Q. Thank you. Let's talk about the police station where you were

25 held. Prior to April 17th, 1992, had you ever gone to the police station?

Page 3982

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And for what reason would you go to the police station?

3 A. For example, when I was supposed to pick up my firearms licence

4 for firearms that I had legally, or to pick up my driver's licence, or

5 pick up my personal ID card or extend it. At one time I was on the first

6 floor of the police station when I was taking my driver's test, the

7 theoretical part of the driving exam.

8 Q. In the summer of 1992, was the police station used for that same

9 purpose?

10 A. As far as I know, no. It was purely a camp.

11 Q. And when you say "a camp," do you mean a prison camp or a

12 Detention Centre, or what do you mean?

13 A. A prison camp, yes. Detention would mean something that was of

14 short duration, and prison camp is something that is for a longer period

15 of time. We were there, we were kept there, for months.

16 Q. Were only men kept in that prison camp known as the police

17 station?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Who else was kept there?

20 A. They kept women on certain occasions, and out of them two were

21 detained there for a long time. The others were there briefly, for a day

22 or two. I don't know where they would take them after that, but those two

23 women were there for longer. I don't know exactly how long they were

24 there, but I know that they were there for a long time.

25 Q. Could you tell the Court about the two women that were held at the

Page 3983

1 police station.

2 A. Yes. I knew both of those women. One of them was in her 30s.

3 Her name was Nihada Ademovic, and she worked at the department store as a

4 saleswoman. And since she was from Gradacac, from a place which is close

5 to Bosanski Samac, and her husband was from Samac, when the war started,

6 she tried to go to Gradacac, because that's where her husband and children

7 were. Since she was driving her car alone, she was by herself in the car,

8 she told me that they took the German marks that she had, that they

9 confiscated her car, and that they brought her to the camp.

10 The other person, whom I also knew - I don't know her last name.

11 I know her name is Behka - she worked with my mother at the textile

12 company which is called Tekstilac. And at that time, if anything was

13 funny to me, and at the same time it was funny and it was sad -- so this

14 is what happened: They accused this woman of being a sniper. Some of the

15 people know that woman, just as much as I know her, and they know that

16 that woman didn't weigh more than 30 or 40 kilogrammes, 50 at the most,

17 and they know that she couldn't even pick up a sniper, never mind fire

18 from it.

19 Q. Of what ethnic group were these women that were being held?

20 A. They were Muslim. They were Bosniak.

21 Q. Were either one of them in the military?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were either one of them wearing uniforms, military uniforms?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How would you characterise them?

Page 3984

1 A. You mean these women?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. The woman who I described as being in her 30s, she was very

4 pretty. She had brown hair. And as I said, before the war she always

5 took care of herself. She always looked very nice. She was -- while she

6 was in the camp, she wasn't able to do that, so she was unkempt.

7 The other woman was in her 50s. She was very, very, and once

8 again, very thin. She was blond. And as I said, she was so thin that she

9 had trouble walking down the street even before the war. So really, she

10 was very, very skinny.

11 Q. Were both of these women civilians?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you ever see any other women or any elderly people being held

14 at the police station?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Tell the Court.

17 A. Since I often had the honour to clean the rooms or the

18 corridors -- I say I had the honour because perhaps a lot of the prisoners

19 would like to have been able to do that in order just to walk around a

20 little bit. So I used to clean one stairway that went all the way down to

21 the cellar, to the basement. So I went down to the basement then and I

22 heard some voices there, and I went a little bit further inside the

23 basement and I saw that older men and women were detained there. They

24 were wearing Croatian national costume, which is what the Croatian women

25 from the surrounding villages would usually wear.

Page 3985

1 Q. Could you tell us -- could you please describe to the Court these

2 Croatian national costumes, or the Croatian form of dress.

3 A. The women would mostly wear black clothes, black long skirts with

4 a white lining. They would wear black tops with a white collar, or

5 something like that, and they also had white head scarves, and one of them

6 would perhaps have a black head scarf. And you could tell by their accent

7 whether they were from Bazik or Grebnice. Their dialect, their accent,

8 was different from ours.

9 Q. Were there any other prison camps that you're aware of in Bosanski

10 Samac in addition to the police station?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Please tell the Court where those were.

13 A. A camp next to the camp in the police station was situated in the

14 building where the TO was and the former JNA. The second -- or the third

15 camp was at the secondary school, at the high school, and it was popularly

16 called isolation. The fourth camp -- I have to make a correction here.

17 Before I was arrested, there was a camp at the elementary school, which

18 was closed down, and these people were then moved to the secondary

19 school. There was another camp at a village called Zasevica. It was a

20 Croat, Catholic village. That's where there was a camp.

21 Q. You said that the secondary school was called "isolation." Why

22 was it referred to as "isolation"?

23 A. I really don't know that.

24 Q. Do you know who was held in Zasevica?

25 A. Yes. They kept women there, children, even babies, elderly

Page 3986

1 people, the sick, old women, old men. They kept them all there. Mostly

2 -- not mostly, but over 90 per cent of the people there were family

3 members of the people who were detained in other places. And I think they

4 wanted to round off the ethnic cleansing in the sense of exchanging entire

5 families. And this is what happened.

6 Q. When you returned to the police station, where were you kept?

7 A. You mean when I came back from the hospital?

8 Q. When you came back from the hospital, where were you kept?

9 A. When I returned from the hospital, I was placed in garage 3. That

10 garage was in the yard of the police station, behind the police station

11 building, in the yard.

12 Q. What was the yard behind the police station used for?

13 A. Number 1 was mostly used as a place where people were beaten up,

14 also where people were put on the repair -- number 2 was where they

15 repaired the cars. Number 3 was where the prisoners were held.

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, would you like us to break here before

17 we get into the yard a little bit more?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can break off and continue our proceedings

19 this afternoon at 1530 hours.

20 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

22

23

24

25

Page 3987

1 --- On resuming at 3.32 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, examination in chief is continuing.

3 MR. WEINER: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dagovic. Just before we broke for lunch, we

5 were talking about the yard behind the police station with the garages,

6 and you indicated that when you got back from the hospital, that you were

7 placed in those -- one of those garages. How long did you stay in one of

8 those garages? How long were you held there?

9 A. I was there until I was exchanged on November 5th, 1992.

10 Q. During that period, from July 8th to November 5th, 1992, were you

11 forced to do any type of labour while you were held in those garages?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Tell the Court what type of labour that you were forced to do.

14 A. As I've already said, we had to -- and under forced labour, I'm

15 also thinking of the looting and robbery, as I called it. We also had to

16 clean, repair cars, wash cars of the police officers, the soldiers, all

17 the worst jobs. We would cut wood, clean weapons, and so on.

18 Q. While you were doing these forced labour assignments, were you

19 ever beaten?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tell the Court, please, what happened.

22 A. Each time while we were working, anybody that would walk -- who

23 would walk by would hit us with something that they happened to be

24 carrying in their hand, or if they had nothing, they would kick us or hit

25 us with their hand. And we called it a banana, us inmates, and this just

Page 3988

1 meant that you got hit just sort of as a kind of aside as somebody was

2 passing by.

3 Q. When you say "when someone was passing by," do you mean civilians,

4 do you mean soldiers, do you mean police officers? Who were the people

5 who would strike you during the forced labour?

6 A. They were soldiers or the guards who were guarding us, who were

7 there, who were watching over us.

8 Q. Now, were these guards or soldiers local ones or were those the

9 ones from Serbia?

10 A. I would like to say it again, it was mostly people from the

11 Special Forces, people from Serbia, but there were also many local Serbs

12 or members of the 4th Detachment. It depended on where we were working.

13 If we were in the town, for example, then there were soldiers there,

14 locals, if I can call them that.

15 Q. And while you did this work, did you ever have to sing Chetnik

16 songs? You indicated while you were being detained, you had to sing

17 Chetnik songs. What about during the forced labour?

18 A. Let me say that during the forced labour, they hardly ever made us

19 sing the Chetnik songs. Perhaps occasionally, but it didn't happen as

20 many times as it did when we were in the camp itself.

21 Q. Now, prior to being imprisoned, and during your time of

22 imprisonment, when you had to do forced labour, because you did it at both

23 periods -- first, just answer this in a yes or no question. Did you ever

24 see any of the defendants while you were doing or performing this forced

25 labour?

Page 3989

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Let us start off with Blagoje Simic. Did you ever see Blagoje

3 Simic while you were doing your forced labour?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Tell the Court where, and what the circumstances were.

6 A. Once I was performing labour at the municipal building, and I can

7 tell you the name of the person who took us there for forced labour. His

8 name was Stevan. He worked at the municipality. And I saw Mr. Blagoje

9 Simic entering the municipal building accompanied by some people, but I

10 don't know who those people were.

11 Q. How was the defendant Blagoje Simic dressed?

12 A. He was wearing a uniform, a camouflage uniform.

13 Q. The men who were accompanying him, were they carrying any weapons?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How many times while you were performing forced labour did you see

16 Blagoje Simic?

17 A. As often as I was there. So I was at the municipal building a

18 couple of times, or somewhere in town, and I would see him passing by or

19 entering the municipal building. But as I said, I saw him frequently at

20 the municipal building. Because high-ranking officials often visited

21 there, the premises had to be very clean, so this is where we were

22 working, to make sure that everything was very clean.

23 Q. Milan Simic, the defendant Milan Simic, did you ever see him while

24 you were out on forced labour?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3990

1 Q. And where did you see Milan Simic?

2 A. The first time I saw Milan Simic in the yard, in my neighbour's

3 yard, and this was before I was arrested. A young man from Sarajevo just

4 happened to be there. He was visiting my neighbour, who was a Muslim, and

5 my other neighbour was a Serb. His name was Teso, and Milan Simic was

6 visiting him. On that occasion - and I knew Mr. Milan Simic very well - I

7 asked if he could do something about this young man, and I meant if he

8 could help this young man somehow leave town, because he had nothing to do

9 with our town or the events in the town itself. And he told me that he

10 could, and he issued a permit for this young man to leave town.

11 The second time -- I mean, I saw him several times at the

12 municipal building, as he was entering the building, and that's all.

13 Q. And how was he dressed when you saw Milan Simic?

14 A. He was in a camouflage uniform.

15 Q. Did you ever see the defendant Miroslav Tadic while you were out

16 doing forced labour?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And where did you see Miroslav Tadic?

19 A. I saw him in different places around town, because we happened to

20 be at different places, so I would see him as he was passing by.

21 Q. And how was he dressed?

22 A. He wore a camouflage uniform. And something that was very

23 noticeable to me, since I knew that gentleman from before, he had grown a

24 long beard and he had longer hair and he was wearing round glasses,

25 different ones that he's wearing now, and he resembled General Draza

Page 3991

1 Mihajlovic from World War II. It seemed to be his image at that time.

2 Q. Simo Zaric, did you ever see the defendant Simo Zaric while you

3 were doing your forced labour outside the station?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And tell the Court where you saw Simo Zaric.

6 A. I used to see Simo Zaric, besides seeing him in passing or around

7 the town, I saw him at the silo once when we were working there. I saw

8 him often at the police station, or the camp.

9 Q. When you were outside, did you ever see Simo Zaric and Miroslav

10 Tadic together?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And please tell the Court that.

13 A. It was very noticeable to me that soldiers would greet them [as

14 interpreted]. When they would see him, they would greet him, because it

15 was obvious that he was occupying a high position. He was the commander

16 of the 4th Detachment. So they would say hello when they saw him, just as

17 they did Mr. Tadic.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, I wonder whether I could just ask for

19 a clarification from the witness. Page 77, line 9, the witness has said,

20 concerning Mr. Tadic, that he resembled General Draza Mihajlovic from

21 World War II. I'm afraid I don't know how the General looked, and I'm

22 wondering whether you might elaborate a little bit as to what meaning that

23 has for me, please.

24 MR. WEINER: Yes. I'm sorry. I was going to ask, but I thought

25 Mr. Donia covered that, but maybe I'm wrong. Okay. I don't know.

Page 3992

1 Q. Could you just elaborate on who the General was and the

2 significance of the General, please.

3 A. I understand that Your Honour didn't know what this General looked

4 like. Serbs know about him.

5 They know about him because his army used to perform killings

6 during World War II. Mr. Tadic was identical to him because he wore a

7 longer beard, because before he used to have a mustache, he had longer

8 hair and he wore round-framed glasses. So he practically resembled

9 General Draza Mihajlovic. All he needed was that cap, the sajkaca, to

10 look exactly like him. And he looked like this throughout the war right

11 up until the exchange. That is what he wore and what he looked like.

12 Q. Did the general wear what they referred to as the Chetnik beard,

13 the big, full beard? Is that what you're describing?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And I believe -- was he the leader of the Chetniks or a major

16 member of the Chetniks, this general?

17 A. That general was the number one leader of the Chetnik formations

18 in World War II. And if I may add, I see that he is important to them

19 because in -- throughout the present Republika Srpska, they erected

20 monuments to him, as well as in Brcko. Before, we used to have monuments

21 to heroes from World War II, who were killed in the Partisans, and these

22 were the heroes we were taught about at school. We all know who General

23 Draza was. He was a Chetnik leader. So I understand now that there is a

24 monument to him in Brcko, a Bosnian town, and perhaps in other towns in

25 Bosnia as well. I don't know.

Page 3993

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

2 MR. WEINER:

3 Q. Just one more question on Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric. How were

4 they treated by the officers, the police officers, the military officers,

5 the guards, when they saw either of them?

6 A. They were generally respectful, or they commanded respect. And

7 when I was in the army I knew what it meant to be an officer, a

8 commander. He would be greeted in a soldier's way. And the only thing

9 that I noticed in the paramilitary soldiers' formations was that the way

10 they greeted or saluted their superiors, and their other conduct was not

11 in accordance with the behaviour of a soldier.

12 Q. Were Miroslav Tadic or Simo Zaric saluted when police or local 4th

13 Detachment officers saw them?

14 A. Yes. And if I may be permitted to add, since I knew both of them,

15 Mr. Simo -- Simic [sic] a little more than Mr. Tadic, because often, as

16 I've already said, I would go with my uncle, I would go hunting with him,

17 so I would often meet Mr. Simo. And each time that I would meet him, I

18 would look at him straight in the eyes so that he would recognise me and

19 perhaps grant me some kind of privileged treatment, but he never seemed to

20 recognise me at all.

21 Q. You referred to Mr. Simo and Mr. Simic.

22 MS. BAEN: Excuse me.

23 MR. WEINER: I'm straightening that out.

24 MS. BAEN: Thank you.

25 MR. WEINER:

Page 3994

1 Q. Were you referring to Mr. Simo Zaric?

2 A. Yes, Simo Zaric. I apologise if I made a mistake, but I meant

3 Simo Zaric.

4 Q. And when you say you tried to get him to recognise you, were you

5 referring to when you were out on your work assignments or your forced

6 labour assignments?

7 A. Yes, outside and inside the police building. Every time I would

8 see -- to see if he would look at me, but he would never look at me

9 because I was unimportant at that time.

10 MR. WEINER: May the witness be shown Exhibit 14A, photograph

11 number 56, please?

12 Q. Mr. Dagovic, do you recognise what's depicted in that photograph?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please tell us what is depicted in that photograph.

15 A. You can see the yard of the police station or the detention camp,

16 and you can see here the garages where the prisoners were kept, where the

17 petrol was kept. My uncle was killed in this garage. I was in this

18 garage. And the inmate called Bjelko was in this garage. [redacted]

19 Dragan Lukac and the others were in this garage. This is where we

20 worked. This photograph was taken from a window on the first floor,

21 somewhere here, but you can't see it on this photograph, it was the

22 entrance to the police station. This here is a bunker which we built.

23 Q. How many garages were there?

24 A. As I see, it's five, and as I know, it's five, one, two, three,

25 four, five, but I see that the numbers were different. We called them by

Page 3995

1 different numbers when we were in the camp. They went from the other

2 side, because these numbers were not on the doors of the garage at the

3 time that I was in -- detained there.

4 Q. Let me take you through these five garages. Let's start at the

5 garage which is closest to the bottom of the picture, which appears to be

6 garage 5. You called that garage 1, you referred to that, the prisoners

7 actually --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was in garage 1? Please actually point out what you consider

10 garage 1 and then tell us what was in it.

11 A. Yes. It's exactly as we said. We called it garage 1. There was

12 an old car in that garage, from the former police.

13 Q. Garage 2, could you show us where that is and what number is

14 depicted on that now, please?

15 A. That is now number 4, but before we used to call it number 2.

16 Q. Who or what was in that garage?

17 A. At that time, I have to go back a little. When Lugar beat me,

18 [redacted], Dragan Lukac was there, and also a couple of other

19 inmates were there in that garage. I can't remember their names. Franjo

20 Barukcic, because I know that I used to take food to them in that garage.

21 So that's this garage, garage 4.

22 Q. What was in the middle garage, garage 3? I assume that one never

23 changed numbers.

24 A. Yes. We were held in that garage. I was kept in that garage, the

25 so-called forced labour group, work group.

Page 3996

1 Q. Do you recall anyone else who was ever in that garage?

2 A. Yes. I was there, Antica Bauman was there, Sabah Seric was there,

3 Zlatko Stanic was there. And Enes, he was a mechanic. I don't remember

4 his last name.

5 Q. Garage 4, which appears to be depicted as number 2 on the

6 photograph, tell us about that. Who or what was in that garage?

7 A. We would often unload the stolen goods in that garage, and the

8 police officers used to bring their own stolen goods, their loot, to that

9 garage, and the loot would stay in that garage until they took it home.

10 What I mean to say is that for as long as somebody was on duty, for as

11 long as they worked, as long as they were there, they would steal

12 something and bring it there and then, once they went home, they would

13 take it with them. In that garage, also, my uncle was killed.

14 Q. We'll get to that shortly. Were there any prisoners held in that

15 garage 4?

16 A. As far as I know, no.

17 Q. And the last one, number 5, which seems to be numbered in the

18 photograph as number 1.

19 A. Garage 1 was where petrol was kept.

20 MR. WEINER: Leave that with him for a while and let him talk

21 about it.

22 A. So petrol was kept in garage 1. We always had to pour that petrol

23 into all of these cars that you see here, as well as the cars that

24 would -- the cars of the officials who would come to see Mr. Blagoje

25 Simic, so then they would drop by and then we would fill up those cars

Page 3997

1 with petrol as well.

2 I also would like to add: What you see here, this other building,

3 that's already a part of the municipal building. The municipal building

4 was in front, and that's where Mr. Blagoje Simic was, and most probably

5 Mr. Blagoje Simic as well [as interpreted] -- Mr. Milan Simic.

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, for the record, the witness is pointing

7 at the building which has windows. It's white and it's situated behind

8 the garage.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

10 MR. WEINER: He's referring to that as a wing of the municipal

11 building.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

14 Q. Now, sir, are you familiar with a man by the name of Ahmed

15 Vukovic?

16 A. Ahmed Vukovic, yes. That's my uncle. He's my mother's brother.

17 Q. And can you tell me whether he was detained with you?

18 A. Yes. In fact, he was kept in the SUP rooms, but he was also

19 in -- sometimes in garage 3 with us.

20 Q. Could you tell us what happened to him, what, if anything,

21 occurred to him?

22 A. On the 28th of November, the police station, or the camp, was

23 shelled.

24 Q. Excuse me. One second. You said 28th of November?

25 A. Excuse me. October. On the 28th of October. I apologise.

Page 3998

1 So we were in this part, in this yard, and we were working on

2 these cars here. Here on the right side, there were two concrete blocks,

3 and this is where we drove the cars onto so that the car would be raised

4 above ground so we could work underneath, and that's where the shelling

5 started. At that moment I happened to be by the door, at the entrance.

6 In view of the fact that the VBR - which is a weapon - when fired, it's

7 very fast, and we could hear it being fired and we could hear the grenades

8 landing. It's a multiple rocket launcher. So I managed to escape closer

9 to the building. My uncle happened to be in garage 4. He was working on

10 something in that garage. The shell landed on the roof of that garage.

11 Q. And what happened to your uncle when the shell landed?

12 A. He was killed.

13 Q. And could you describe his appearance from being shelled?

14 A. I sawdust and smoke rising up, but when it subsided, we went out,

15 and one of the detainees, named Hamid -- I don't know what his last name

16 was. He was also known as Conta, Hamid Conta - pulled my uncle's body

17 out. And as far as I was able to see, the right part of his head was

18 missing, a part of his skull on the right side was missing, his hands were

19 all cut up, and so were his legs, his arms. He was giving signs of life,

20 but I think it was just his dying nerves.

21 Q. Was anyone else killed there from shelling prior to your leaving

22 on November 5th?

23 A. I heard that in the TO building, a man they called Mrgud was also

24 killed. I don't remember the exact date, but I do know that they shelled

25 that camp.

Page 3999

1 Q. Was that after your uncle had died or prior to that?

2 A. It was after my uncle was killed. If I may -- if you will allow

3 me, I would like to add a detail which sticks in my mind. As I said, this

4 garage number 4 was a warehouse for stolen goods, and before the shelling,

5 Pero, that same Pero Krstanovic who took me to loot, as I described this

6 morning, he put some lamps in here that he had stolen somewhere - I don't

7 know where - and after the shelling, they all came here. When I say

8 "they," I'm referring to the soldiers and the police officers. They came

9 to see what had happened here. And Pero said he regretted his lamps, and

10 he didn't pay any attention to the man who was killed here. That's how

11 much a Muslim's life meant to him.

12 Q. Sir, you indicated there was a bunker in that yard.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How long had that bunker been there?

15 A. Well, we built it, I think -- no. I know for certain after I left

16 the hospital we built it. They brought us blocks of concrete and we

17 erected it. That's the bunker. And there was an opening on the front

18 side through which they fired shots at Croatia. You see, this is the

19 river Sava, and the trees here, that's Croatia.

20 Q. I was just going to ask you how it was used. Was the bunker being

21 used prior to your uncle being killed?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And can you explain again how it was being used?

24 A. Well, you know how? They fired shots from this bunker, not so

25 often, but they did. They fired shots at Croatia, and every time they

Page 4000

1 did, the fire was returned. So that it wasn't just the shelling, but once

2 they fired at the police station - that's this part here - with a

3 anti-aircraft gun, referred to as a PAT. And I was in the toilet at the

4 time, and they shot at the toilet window, and this was probably caused by

5 the provocation by the shots fired by these soldiers and policemen at

6 Croatia.

7 Q. Sir, while you were there in those garages, were there any other

8 dead bodies removed from those garages?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Tell the Court about that, please.

11 A. I would like to correct you. This was when I was in the SUP

12 building, but the bodies were taken from the garages, the garage 5, which

13 was then actually number 1.

14 Q. Okay. Please tell us about that, that situation.

15 A. So we were in the last room on the right-hand side, and the window

16 of our room was almost at a level with the garage roof. And what we

17 noticed was that there was an unpleasant odour, a stench. We didn't know

18 what it was. But one night we heard a truck arriving. It entered the

19 yard of the police station. The gate was there, and it came up to here.

20 We dared not look out of the window. We heard voices, and we heard

21 something, a thudding on the bottom of the truck. They were probably

22 loading corpses in. And I know that when the truck left, the stench could

23 no longer be smelled. And I did see blood in that garage.

24 Q. Did you ever hear what happened to those bodies?

25 A. No, but -- well, yes. Later on I did find out that they had

Page 4001

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Page 4002

1 buried those bodies in the woods, but I didn't know that then. I hadn't

2 heard that while I was there.

3 Q. And do you know whether those were prisoners, or do you know who

4 that was?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Now, sir, you indicated you were exchanged in early November, on

7 the 5th?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, in the six months that you were held, from May 5th to

10 November 5th, while at the police station, were you ever able to bathe?

11 A. In the police station, no.

12 Q. When I say "the police station," I mean the police station or the

13 garages.

14 A. Yes. Here in the corner, we used to gather rain water when it

15 rained, and there was an old car there, and behind that car we would bathe

16 quickly so as not to be seen by anyone. I wouldn't call it bathing. It

17 was just sort of perfunctory washing. But in principle, we were not

18 allowed to wash or bathe. And these people in these rooms here, they did

19 not bathe or wash at all.

20 Q. What about shaving? Were you able to shave?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What was the condition of your clothing?

23 A. Well, my clothing, let me tell you, was very filthy and bloody to

24 begin with, but later on, the good guards would give me a T-shirt or a

25 piece of clothing which I would put on, and then I was able to change and

Page 4003

1 I would throw away what I was able to take off, because it was all bloody

2 and filthy.

3 Q. Were you allowed to use the bathroom whenever you wanted?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Could we talk about the food? You were the person distributing

6 the food. Were you given sufficient amount of food?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How much weight did you lose, if you know, during those six

9 months?

10 A. Well, 15 kilograms, more or less.

11 Q. Can you describe what you were given or how you were fed, the

12 amount of food?

13 A. In the beginning, I want to say, when I was detained, we were

14 given the food that was brought in by Mr. Tadic's brother, and this was

15 leftovers from the soldiers' meals. I know that for certain because I

16 would get a piece of meat that had been started by someone else. But it

17 was wonderful food compared to what we got later on. This went on until I

18 went to hospital. After I was in hospital, they reduced these rations so

19 that the detainees in the police station and in the garages, the food we

20 got from Tadic's brother or from the police would amount to about three

21 kilograms of bread and one jar of jam, big jam jar.

22 Q. Was that three kilograms and jam for one person?

23 A. No, unfortunately not. This was for all the detainees in the

24 police station.

25 Q. And about how many detainees shared those three kilograms of

Page 4004

1 bread?

2 A. In my estimation, there were about 80 prisoners altogether,

3 because there were 49 in my room alone when I was here in the police

4 station.

5 Q. Were you hungry while you were being held?

6 A. Yes. Or I wouldn't have lost so much weight.

7 Q. While you were being held at the police station or the garages,

8 were you or the other prisoners beaten?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. With what were you beaten with?

11 A. As I said this morning, I will show you, the door of garage 4 kept

12 opening on its own, so they kept an old car part here, and all the metal

13 tools that were there, all these objects were used to beat us. I will

14 never forget these things. And they beat us very brutally.

15 Q. Who did the beatings?

16 A. Mostly the special soldiers from Serbia.

17 Q. Mostly. Who else did the beatings, in addition to the specials

18 from Serbia?

19 A. Stevan Todorovic did that often. His escort, his last name was

20 Ristic, I think his first name was Goran. Sometimes people we didn't

21 know, they weren't specials. I could tell they were from our parts by

22 their dialects, they were wearing camouflage uniforms, they would come,

23 they were drunk. So anyone who came in could do what he wanted.

24 Q. You indicated -- while we are talking about the police, you

25 indicated sometime earlier today that you used to have to clean the police

Page 4005

1 station, clean the corridors, the hallways. What were you cleaning in

2 those corridors and hallways?

3 A. Well, it was mostly blood, which we had to remove. We also

4 cleaned when there was no blood, but they always gave us something to do.

5 Sometimes we washed blood off walls or doors. We had to take out broken

6 chairs. They broke the chairs while beating us with them. And let me

7 show you in this corner here, this is where we put away those broken

8 chairs.

9 Q. That's the corner right by the bunker, the area right by the

10 bunker?

11 A. Yes, around here. But in this photograph, you can't see, there is

12 another part here, all the way in the corner.

13 Q. During those five months that you spent at the police station, if

14 we subtract the one month from the hospital, how often were people

15 beaten?

16 A. People were beaten daily.

17 Q. While you were at the police station, were you ever interrogated?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How many times were you interrogated while at the police station?

20 A. Three times.

21 Q. Who interrogated you, sir?

22 A. The first time, I was interrogated by Mr. Vlado Sarkanovic.

23 Before the war, he was a police inspector. The other two times, it was

24 Milos Savic, also a police inspector before the war.

25 Q. Could you describe your condition during these interrogations,

Page 4006

1 your physical condition?

2 A. I was in a very bad state, just like everybody else.

3 Q. Had you been beaten prior to these interrogations?

4 A. During the interrogations, I myself was never beaten. But before

5 -- I have made connections now in my mind, why did they interrogate us

6 three times? Every time they took me upstairs, of course, I did not admit

7 to what they wanted and then they would take me back and beat me. And

8 then they would call me up again, a few days later, thinking I had changed

9 my mind and I would tell them something. And that's how it went on.

10 Q. During these interrogations, did you write a statement? Did

11 someone take a statement from you? Please describe the process of these

12 interrogations to the Court.

13 A. The interrogation process went something like this. They told me

14 what I had done. They said, "You were here and you did this and that."

15 For example, they said I was in the SDA military formations, that I had

16 fired shots at Serbs, that -- I don't know, that they had information

17 about me, and I had to sign this. I signed everything they gave me, but

18 they never read it to me, nor did I ever read exactly what I had signed.

19 Q. Did you ever ask them if you could read the document?

20 A. No. I didn't dare ask them.

21 Q. Were these statements that you made, was it voluntary at all?

22 A. Well, no, no, they weren't. Nothing was voluntary in the camp.

23 Everything was under coercion.

24 Q. And when they told you to sign them even though you had not read

25 them, did you sign those statements?

Page 4007

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Let us just finish up with the police station. While at the

3 police station, did you ever see a man named Stevan Todorovic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How often did you see Stevan Todorovic?

6 A. Almost every day.

7 Q. Do you know what his position was at the station?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was that?

10 A. He was the chief of police.

11 Q. What was he doing when you saw him on these many days?

12 A. Every time I saw him, he was maltreating people, beating people,

13 either in passing as he entered the police station and climbed upstairs

14 where his office was. He beat people even then, even if it was only a

15 slap.

16 Q. Did you ever see him with any other police officers?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what was he doing with the other police officers?

19 A. Well, mostly when he was maltreating people, the others would

20 laugh and they would strike a few blows.

21 Q. Have you ever seen -- did you ever see the defendant Simo Zaric at

22 the police station during your five month stay there?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How many times did you see the defendant Simo Zaric at the police

25 station during your five month stay at the station?

Page 4008

1 A. About 50 times at least, if I'm not mistaken.

2 Q. On these 50 or so times, or approximately 50 times that you saw

3 him, how was he dressed?

4 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform, which was slightly different

5 from the camouflage uniforms worn by other soldiers, because his uniform

6 was a little lighter in colour. It was more light green while others were

7 of a darker shade of green. Whether it's because he had a high rank or

8 whether it was by accident, I don't know.

9 Q. Was he armed when you saw him?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How was he armed?

12 A. He carried an automatic pistol known as a scorpion.

13 Q. Did you ever see him with any other objects?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what did you see him with?

16 A. On his right shoulder he always carried a bag, so the strap would

17 always be on his shoulder, and it was about 30 by 40, or 20 by 30

18 centimetres in size. I assume he carried important documents in there. I

19 don't know what else he could have carried in it.

20 Q. So a briefcase type of a bag?

21 A. Well, I wouldn't -- yes, perhaps. Perhaps a briefcase. In any

22 case, it was a bag for carrying sheets of paper. I had been in the army,

23 and I know that this sort of bag was always carried by officers, and it

24 always contained papers or documents.

25 Q. When you saw Simo Zaric, the defendant Simo Zaric, at the police

Page 4009

1 station, what was he usually doing?

2 A. Well, let me tell you. Simo Zaric, as far as I know, ever [as

3 interpreted] hit anyone there, but he would always go upstairs, where the

4 office of Stevan Todorovic was. He probably had meetings with Stevan

5 Todorovic. But I heard when I was in the camp that Mr. Zaric himself

6 interrogated some people in the police station, that is, in the camp. He

7 didn't interrogate me.

8 Q. Did you ever see Simo Zaric meeting with any of the police

9 officials?

10 A. I saw him. Todorovic would sometimes meet him on the stairs.

11 Sometimes they would come down the stairs together. But I mostly saw him

12 with Todorovic, and sometimes with Cancarevic, who was the commander of

13 the police.

14 Q. You indicated that you were exchanged in early November, on

15 November 5th. Could you tell the Court the circumstances of that

16 exchange, please.

17 A. They arrived and they told me I was going to be exchanged, and of

18 course I was happy that I would be able to leave that hell. They took us,

19 five of us detainees, from the police. They took us in the direction of

20 the secondary school, or rather, the sports field near the secondary

21 school. Some buses came there, and we were supposed to board those

22 buses. They were very long buses. We used to refer to them as harmonicas

23 [as interpreted].

24 Q. Why did you refer to those buses as harmonicas?

25 A. Accordians. Because they were double, and in the middle they were

Page 4010

1 connected with a rubber material which was flexible. They were very long

2 buses, maybe 18 metres or so.

3 Q. Now, while you were at the high school waiting as these buses

4 arrived, did you see any of the defendants?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who did you see?

7 A. Mr. Tadic, Miroslav Tadic.

8 Q. What was the defendant Miroslav Tadic doing?

9 A. Miroslav Tadic turned up with sheets of paper in his hand, and

10 Tadic and the policeman called out people's names, and as they read out

11 their names, they would board the buses. I wish only to add that there

12 was another camp in the secondary school, and the people from that camp

13 were also boarding the buses. There were lots of civilians, women, and

14 children. Mr. Tadic read out names, and that's the order in which they

15 boarded buses. His assistant was Sreto. I don't know what his last name

16 was, but he was a teacher.

17 Q. Once you boarded the buses, what happened next?

18 A. Then we set out toward Crkvina, and we stopped in the village of

19 Zasevica. That's where the next camp was.

20 Q. And what happened there?

21 A. On that occasion a few women and children and elderly men were

22 brought onto the bus, and then we continued on.

23 Q. Where did you go from there?

24 A. We went in the direction of Doboj, Derventa, Banja Luka, and then

25 we turned toward Nova Gradiska.

Page 4011

1 Q. What happened at Gradiska?

2 A. If I may add, if you will allow me: During the journey there,

3 there was a Serbian checkpoint every two or three kilometres, and they

4 always stopped the bus. Of course, they knew that we were going to be

5 exchanged, that we were civilians, but they wanted to kill us all.

6 However, on one occasion I noticed Sreto saying, "Don't kill them. We'll

7 get Serbs in exchange for them."

8 Then we got to Gradiska. Mr. Tadic was driving in a car, a

9 civilian vehicle, in front, and there was another car which was a police

10 car. I remember well that we stopped in Gradiska, in front of the bridge,

11 that is, in front of the border with Croatia.

12 Q. How long did you sit in that bus in Gradiska by the bridge?

13 A. About two hours.

14 Q. And did you see Miroslav Tadic at that time?

15 A. Mr. Tadic went to a cafe which was near the bridge.

16 Q. During those two hours, were you allowed to leave the bus, you and

17 the other people?

18 A. No, we were not allowed to do so; and even had we done so, it

19 would not have ended well for us, because the people from Gradiska wanted

20 to kill us. Across the road there was a school, and the students came out

21 and hurled insults at us. So we were actually fortunate to be in the bus.

22 Q. Where did you go next?

23 A. When, as they say, they put the papers in order, we crossed over

24 into Croatia, and right after we had crossed the bridge, we were stopped

25 by Martic's police, the police of Milan Martic. They looked at the

Page 4012

1 documents and the list of names, and they asked if anyone had any gold

2 jewellery to hand over. I don't know whether people did that. I didn't

3 have anything with me. I was just out of camp. I don't know whether

4 other people had something to give and what they took.

5 When this was over, we went on our way toward Dragalic, about 15

6 to 20 kilometres away, and we came to an abandoned petrol pump which I

7 think had been burnt, and there we were exchanged through the mediation of

8 the Nepal battalion of UNPROFOR.

9 Q. In what country did this occur?

10 A. This happened in Croatia.

11 Q. And at this time during the exchange, were any of the defendants

12 present?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who was present?

15 A. Mr. Miroslav Tadic.

16 Q. And what was he doing?

17 A. He had papers in his hand again, and some man came from the other

18 side and they agreed on something, and that's how the exchange started.

19 Q. And can you just explain what the exchange looked like?

20 A. The exchange looked like this: I think on one side, I think

21 Mr. Tadic went to the place where the bus was, the bus in which the Serb

22 prisoners came; and the other one, the representative of the other side,

23 came to our side, and he read from a list, and we were to cross over to

24 the other side. And Mr. Tadic or someone else probably read the list on

25 the other side for those people to cross over. And then we got into a bus

Page 4013

1 in which the Serb prisoners were brought, and they got into the bus in

2 which we were brought. What I noticed was the following: I was glad that

3 this other bus was much more luxurious than the bus that I was brought in.

4 Q. And where did you go in this newer bus, on this luxurious bus?

5 A. We were taken to Orasje on this new bus. Orasje is in

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. What happened once you got to Orasje?

8 A. When I arrived at Orasje, the first thing I did was to take a bath

9 and to eat well. Since it was already night, we went to sleep, to some

10 houses that were there, to the headquarters. I don't know what they

11 called it. And then the next day I went for a medical examination.

12 Q. Let us talk about your medical status. What injuries did you

13 suffer while being imprisoned in Bosanski Samac, at the police station?

14 A. The injuries that I sustained are broken ribs, extracted teeth,

15 broken fingers, the cutting of my ears and my neck, the cutting of my

16 fingers, abuse, blows and pains that I still feel when there is about to

17 be a change in the weather. And the worst is that I still have

18 psychological problems.

19 Q. Could you please describe some of the psychological problems that

20 you've suffered and maybe still are suffering?

21 A. My psychological problems are depression, stress,

22 hyperventilation, problems with my muscles. The problems with my muscles

23 are a result of tension, and then they are related to other problems,

24 problems with my bladder and other organs as well.

25 Q. Tell me about the problems with the muscles, please. Tell the

Page 4014

1 Court.

2 A. The problems with my muscles? Well, if I were to tell you that I

3 had 20 treatments with my doctor where I go regularly for massages of my

4 muscles, because those muscles are pressing upon the blood vessels in the

5 back of my neck, so I have weak concentration, I get upset very easily, I

6 sleep badly because of that, I get headaches, I have problems with my

7 bladder. And I have undertaken all the medical tests in Holland, and I

8 have medical -- documentation about this. Because of the muscle tension,

9 there is pressure on my bladder so that I cannot have control over my

10 bladder. The control over my bladder has been taken over by stress, which

11 also affects my other organs.

12 Q. Did these problems exist prior to your being incarcerated in

13 Bosanski Samac?

14 A. Never. I never even had to go and see a doctor, except when I was

15 a child and had to be vaccinated. Now I have a very thick medical file

16 with my GP, and also at the clinics in my town. And I can also tell you,

17 and I can document that, that 20 days ago, I ended up in the emergency

18 room precisely because I had an irregular heartbeat, hyperventilation,

19 vertigo, and all of this is a consequence of the stress.

20 Q. What about dental work? You indicated you had four of your teeth

21 pulled by Lugar. Did you have any dental work done after you got out of

22 the prison at the police station?

23 A. I received permission to leave Bosnia and Herzegovina, to leave

24 the area of Orasje. I was permitted to go to Croatia. Since I had

25 friends in Istria in Croatia, I went to Novi Grad, where I had my teeth

Page 4015

1 repaired. I had dentures made.

2 Q. Did you have any problems with your jaw from the beatings?

3 A. Yes. My upper jaw is deformed. It's shifted a little to the

4 side.

5 Q. I realise this is not as important as your physical problems, but

6 could we just talk about your financial losses that you suffered, that you

7 and your family suffered? What ever happened to your Ford Capri?

8 A. The Ford Capri was taken, was driven away by Tralja. On that

9 occasion, when he came, they took 17.000 German marks from our house.

10 They took my mother's gold jewellery. And they took valuable items which

11 they were able to carry, smaller items.

12 Q. When you say "they," who were "they"?

13 A. I mean Tralja and the people who were with him, mostly the

14 specials, the so-called soldiers from the Republic of Serbia.

15 Q. What was taken from you? Let's talk about jewellery.

16 A. For example, that time, they took 17 rings from my mother. Since,

17 as I've already said, gold was a tradition in our family, and it would be

18 inherited from one generation to the next, so that we had quite a lot of

19 gold, and they took that away. But this wasn't the only time that they

20 came and took things and jewellery from us. They came several times, on

21 several occasions, and they even fired shots around the house and abused

22 my parents and my brother. And this can be confirmed by a gentleman who

23 is among the accused, if he wishes to do that, because he helped to a

24 certain extent. He helped my parents to a certain extent.

25 Q. What else did your family lose?

Page 4016

1 A. My family lost just, like all the other families lost, a house. I

2 have to go back a little. I have to come back to the present. As I said,

3 we had two houses, so they took both of those houses. So when we were

4 exchanged, this was left behind automatically, and other refugees moved

5 into our houses and they took all our things. Now, the house that my

6 uncle lived in, my father's brother, for that house, they made some sort

7 of false documents, some kind of contract, which is -- claims that this

8 was given as a gift, which is absolutely not true. So we had to go to

9 court over this house. This has happened over the past year.

10 I must say that one of the lawyers on the other side was a lawyer

11 who was in the team of these gentlemen here. He's very popular over

12 there, and I'm very unpopular over there, because I am a witness in The

13 Hague, and this was the reason why I definitely lost the house, to which I

14 have all the deeds. This house is wholly owned by my father and this is

15 the only reason. So that means I have come to the conclusion with this

16 that they had rounded off their ethnic cleansing by doing this. They

17 expelled us, they are -- they placed the house in the name of a man from

18 Obudovac, the house for which I have all the documents, which I can

19 produce here in The Hague.

20 Yesterday when I was here in The Hague, when I went to a break, my

21 lawyer called me from Samac and he told me that the Court of Republika

22 Srpska has rejected our appeal to the basic court in Doboj, on the

23 decision of the basic court in Doboj, which awarded the house to them. So

24 that means that the circle of ethnic cleansing has this way been

25 completed.

Page 4017

1 Q. Before I ask you a few questions on that, you indicated that

2 somebody in this courtroom was aware of one of the problems and helped

3 your family. Could you tell us who that was and what that's about,

4 please?

5 A. On that occasion, when the soldiers from Serbia came, when they

6 abused my parents, when they forced them -- excuse me, when they forced my

7 brother and my father to drink in one go one litre of whiskey all at once,

8 meaning that they could not stop, that they beat them, abused them, they

9 fired weapons in the house, and my parents, the only thing that they had

10 -- could do, after -- those soldiers left and they said they were going

11 to come back in half an hour, so my parents set out towards the house of

12 my aunt, which is my grandfather's house, the house where my father was

13 born. Since this was close to the place where Mr. Borislav Pisarevic

14 lived, he saw my parents, and he knew them well and they knew him well,

15 too, so he helped them in the sense that he came up to help them, he gave

16 them some water, he asked them what had happened, and then my mother told

17 him what happened, and he probably, if he remembers that, he could see

18 what a state they were in. I hope he does remember.

19 Q. Thank you. This house that you were talking about that you lost,

20 or that you're involved in litigation with at this time, was this -- for

21 how many generations was this house in your family?

22 A. Four generations.

23 Q. In whose name is this house registered?

24 A. The house was registered in the name of my mother, or my

25 great-grandmother, who gave that house to my uncle, my father's brother,

Page 4018

1 who died in 1997.

2 Q. As of April of 1992, in whose name is that house registered?

3 A. The house was registered in the name of my uncle, Sulejman

4 Dagovic.

5 Q. After your uncle died, in whose name was it registered?

6 A. After my uncle died in 1999, I personally went to Samac with my

7 father, and again, on that occasion I saw Mr. Pisarevic, and I asked for

8 his advice, since he's a lawyer, what I should do, so that we should

9 register the house in my father's name. If he remembers, he sent me to

10 the municipality, told me to take out a death certificate. Then they sent

11 me to Doboj, where he died. I got the certificate of death from there,

12 and based on that I went to the courthouse with my father, where it was

13 established that there was no will and testament, that there was no

14 contract giving the house as a gift. There was no document at all with

15 which my uncle, who died in 1997, had left this house to anybody else,

16 which means that my father is the only legal inheritor who would have that

17 house. And based on that, we registered the house in my father's name,

18 and I have all of those documents here in Holland.

19 If I may continue, if you allow me, maybe two months ago, or

20 perhaps a little more, I received a telephone call from Obudovac. This is

21 a village near Samac. And a man asked me during the call whether I was

22 interested in selling the house. I asked, "Which house, sir?" I asked

23 him, "The one in front and the one behind," because both houses were in

24 our name. And he said that he bought the one in the front and he was now

25 interested in the one in the back. And I asked, "How could you have

Page 4019

1 bought that house when the house is registered in our name?" He told me

2 that he had bought it, he had registered it over to his name and that

3 everything was okay.

4 I called Milos Savic, who interrogated me in the camp in 1992, in

5 view of the fact that he works in the Court where all of those documents

6 are kept, and I asked him if he could check for me who is -- in whose name

7 is the house registered. And he gave me information that the house is in

8 the name of Sarkanovic.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the first name.

10 A. A man from Obudovac, together with my father I engaged a lawyer,

11 who then set out to work to see what this whole thing was about. They

12 showed us a contract where there is a signature which is not my uncle's

13 signature, and they said that this house was left to this man by

14 contract. So all of the gentlemen sitting here are versed in the law, and

15 they know very well the procedure when a house is registered in somebody's

16 name. So if there is a contract, this contract must be at court. So when

17 we tried to register the house and we did in our name, there was no such

18 contract. And if there had been, we would have known about it.

19 So then we had to prove that we were caring for our brother, my

20 uncle, my father's brother, and that throughout the war we sent money, and

21 that I had received papers from the Dutch ministry for him to be able to

22 come here, and that once he died, we buried him and we erected him -- had

23 a gravestone made for him. And the only reason why Mr. Zivan -- and the

24 only reason for this whole affair perhaps is that is Mr. Zivan Blagojevic,

25 who is also here in The Hague, is very popular, and I, who am also in The

Page 4020

1 Hague, am not very popular.

2 Yesterday I heard that they had a small celebration because they

3 had completed their job.

4 Q. When you say that there was a contract but it did not have your

5 uncle's signature, are you saying it was a forged signature, or was the

6 signature of someone other than your uncle, meaning there's a different

7 name on that piece of paper granting title?

8 A. Yes, I think that it's a forged signature, because I have letters

9 and signatures and documents by my uncle which all bear his signature.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, there was a name, this very house in

11 which the name was registered, Mr. Sarkanovic. The interpreters said that

12 they didn't get the first name.

13 MR. WEINER: Sorry.

14 Q. What was the first name of that individual named Sarkanovic, from

15 Obudovac, who claims to own the house now?

16 A. Slobodan Sarkanovic. If you wanted to put things together. But I

17 did inform myself, and I know that Sarkanovic is a cousin of the

18 interrogator who interrogated me in the camp. They are in power down

19 there. They are everything down there.

20 And if you permit me, we also have to pay for all the court

21 expenses, and including the lawyers. These expenses amount to about

22 20.000 German marks. If we do not do that, they - and I have this in

23 writing - they will carry out measures. And since I do not intend to make

24 this payment, they probably intend to sell my house in order to complete

25 this cycle of ethnic cleansing.

Page 4021

1 Q. You were speaking about your uncle's house, the house that's been

2 in your family for four generations, and you claim it's been -- you're

3 losing it through fraud. The house in back, the house that your family,

4 your parents were living in, what's the status of that house?

5 A. That house is still registered in my father's name. How long this

6 will be for, I have no idea, but it still is in my father's name.

7 Q. Has anyone been living in either of these houses since 1992, other

8 than your family?

9 A. Yes. When we were expelled, Serb refugees moved in there.

10 Q. Is anyone living there at this time, now nine years later?

11 A. Until recently, a man from Glamoc lived in my uncle's house. Now

12 he's returned to his own house and now the house has been taken over by

13 this person who has allegedly bought it. My house is inhabited by

14 refugees from Drvar, and I have just received information that they are

15 about to leave. So that I am hoping that I will get my house back, if

16 it's not taken away from me again, in view of what I have just said,

17 because what I have said now, they will already know that tomorrow.

18 Q. Let's start off with your uncle's house. While people were living

19 there, did you ever receive any rent or any money while they were staying

20 there, from those people?

21 A. After my uncle died, and after they moved in, nobody has paid

22 anything. They even asked us, when they were leaving, for us to pay them

23 5.000 German marks so that they would not take everything from our house,

24 all the things from our house. Also, in connection with this house, Judge

25 Momir Djosanovic, who conducted this court proceeding, said that if we

Page 4022

1 gave him 15.000 German marks, that he would take care of everything.

2 Q. Let us go to the next house, the house that your family was living

3 in. You claim -- you told us -- you've testified that Serb refugees moved

4 in after they forced your family out, and apparently people are going to

5 be leaving soon, some nine years later. During these nine years, did you

6 ever receive any rent or any payment from the people living in that house,

7 from the government, for the use of that house, nine years' use? Have you

8 received any payment?

9 A. No.

10 Q. With regard to either of the houses, did you ever receive any

11 document indicating that your house has been seized for a certain period

12 for people to stay there?

13 A. No.

14 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much.

15 No further questions, Your Honour.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the cross-examination starts, I just wanted

18 to inform the parties, especially the Defence counsel, the Defence

19 counsels for Mr. Simo Zaric, that cross-examination for the following

20 witnesses (redacted), Mr. Dagovic; Mr. Omer Nalic;

21 (redacted); Mr. Perica Misic; and Mr. Kemo Mehinovic - will be

22 conducted by co-counsel, Mr. Lazarevic, and perhaps other witnesses as the

23 evidence progresses, because they may not be listed here, but depending on

24 the evidence -- as the evidence goes.

25 After that, I wanted to find out how many counsel will

Page 4023

1 cross-examine the witness. All the counsel?

2 MR. ZECEVIC: We believe, Your Honours, that all the counsels will

3 conduct the cross-examination.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. In view of the time, I think we shall adjourn

5 the cross-examination to the week after next week, when we resume our

6 proceedings on the 19th of November, at 0930 hours.

7 So Mr. Dagovic, you have to come on the 19th of November for

8 cross-examination, because next week the Trial Chamber has a recess.

9 Before we rise, is there any other matter?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, and for the benefit of the

11 Chamber and Defence counsel --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. di Fazio.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: The expected order of witnesses after this witness

14 will be, and in this order: Witness G; [redacted]

15 [redacted]; Perica Misic;

16 (redacted) ; Safet Dagovic; and Ewa Tabeau.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. And maybe to lessen the confusion, we

18 can have a document which can be served on the parties and the Trial

19 Chamber.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I will do that. And there is just one other

21 matter relating to variant A and B document. Perhaps it's best that

22 Ms. Reidy addresses you on that, since she prepared the documents.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

24 MS. REIDY: It's just that I have with me the witness summary of

25 an investigator who would be the witness we would call should this matter

Page 4024

1 be taken further with the Chamber. And there are some other supporting

2 documentation to that witness summary. So I have copies here for Defence,

3 and obviously for the senior legal officer and the Registry, just so that

4 the Chamber is advised that the Defence can consider the contents of

5 these, the witness statements, that -- during the recess. As they

6 indicated, they may want to make submissions on these files. Is that --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: I want to be clear. You are not going to call the

8 witness?

9 MS. REIDY: Well, as indicated before, the witness is not someone

10 who is -- was currently listed on our witness list. This is a witness we

11 will call if the Chamber requires, if the Chamber determines that's the

12 way it should go. If we want this document authenticated, it's best done

13 through a live witness, that's the witness we would call. Or

14 alternatively, since it's not a matter that goes to any of the direct

15 actions of the defendants, it could also be testimony taken by way of 92

16 bis, I think it is. But this is the witness summary, this is the sort of

17 testimony that the witness would give, should the witness appear, either

18 as -- to give live, viva voce testimony, or to provide it by way of 92

19 bis. I don't know.

20 I know Your Honour Judge Singh had suggested it may be a way to

21 expedite matters.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead and distribute the

23 documents. I'm sure the Defence would like to have sufficient time to

24 look at them before they are called upon to make their own submissions.

25 Any matter from the Defence before we rise?

Page 4025

1 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. If you permit me, I think this

2 witness can be escorted, because we have some procedural matters.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Yes.

4 MR. PANTELIC: He's probably too tired for -- after the testimony,

5 so probably Mr. Usher can --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: The usher will escort the witness.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Just one other matter on the issue of the variant A

9 and B document that my colleague Ms. Reidy addressed you on. Of course

10 it's still possible at this stage that the Defence might withdraw their

11 objection, so all this evidence may become moot, so to speak.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: What do you mean? After giving them the documents,

13 you think if they look through --

14 MR. DI FAZIO: They may withdraw their objection to the admission

15 into evidence of the variant A and B document.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, yes.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: If that happens, then therefore this is moot, and

18 it may be that there is still hope for that possibility.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Everything is possible in life.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic? What matters do you wish to

21 raise?

22 MR. PANTELIC: In response to my learned colleague, I said

23 everything is possible in life, especially in legal proceedings, so

24 probably after the -- I don't know, actually. So maybe, maybe we shall

25 withdraw, maybe we shall rest.

Page 4026

1 Your Honours, I'm not so sure whether I proceed in a formal form,

2 in form of motion, but allow me first to raise the issue, and then you

3 will see whether it will be necessary to have a motion.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. PANTELIC: We as a Defence in this case, we have noticed,

6 during the course of these trial proceedings that, to some extent, we

7 think that, during the objection, objections, during the course of

8 proceedings raised by Prosecution, certain formulation might have

9 significant impact to the issue of testimony of particular witness. So I

10 would kindly suggest and ask - I mean, we have a break of seven days, so

11 we all can think about that issue - whether in further proceedings we

12 shall proceed with the practice in a short conference and approach the

13 bench about some procedural matters, or we shall - which I'm not in favour

14 of the second option - that the particular witness in question should be

15 escorted for a few minutes and then brought back during the trial

16 proceedings, which is I think a little bit complicated.

17 The bottom line of this submission is that, as I said, there is

18 certain impression that when the Prosecution, in course of the

19 objection -- procedural objections establishing a foundation for

20 something, that theoretically - and I'm afraid practically - the witness

21 can catch something in the air, a word or issue or topic or whatever. Or

22 whether, a third possibility, the Prosecution will object with the very

23 short notions, such as, let's say -- sorry, repetitive or, you know, other

24 things, without further explanations why it's repetitive. Or we can

25 approach the Bench and clarify these things, because these are strictly

 

 

 

 

 

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Page 4028

1 procedural matters. And as I said, maybe I'm wrong, but we have some kind

2 of impression. It's just, I would say, topic for thinking. It's not an

3 urgent matter. It's not an issue that we can discuss or resolve now, but

4 it's just an impression.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other matters? That's all? That's all. Thank

8 you.

9 The Court will rise and the proceedings will continue on the 19th

10 of November at 0930 hours.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

12 5.06 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day

13 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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