Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4353

1 Thursday, 22 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution is continuing with

11 examination-in-chief.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS L [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

16 Q. Witness, yesterday we started to -- I started to ask you questions

17 about the exchanges, and I want to return to that topic now. In the time

18 that you were in Batkovic, were prisoners from time to time exchanged?

19 A. Yes, on several occasions.

20 Q. And eventually did that happen to you?

21 A. Yes, it did happen. On the 5th of October, 1994.

22 Q. And where were you taken to? In other words, to what area were

23 you released?

24 A. I was brought to the line between Serb Sarajevo and Sarajevo. The

25 exact location is Grbavica.

Page 4354

1 Q. In the time that you were in Batkovic, did you see any of the

2 accused?

3 A. Yes, on several occasions.

4 Q. Who did you see on those several occasions?

5 A. I saw my professor, Miro Tadic.

6 Q. Can you recall on about how many occasions?

7 A. Two or three times.

8 Q. And where precisely did you see him on those two or three

9 occasions? Was it inside the hangar or outside the hangar or at a

10 location close to the hangar?

11 A. Yes, I saw him in the hangar.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. di Fazio, could the witness tell us

13 approximately what dates? Was it in 1992 that he arrived there, 1993,

14 1994, whatever?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'll do that, Your Honour.

16 Q. You heard the Judge's inquiry. Can you tell the Chamber

17 approximately when these occasions were? Think back on the period of

18 time. If you can give us precise dates, by all means do, of course. That

19 would be preferable. But if you can't, think back on the period of time

20 and try and put a fix when in that period of time these two or three

21 occasions were.

22 A. Throughout the period of my imprisonment, pencils and paper were

23 taken away from us. We only got them when we would write home through the

24 Red Cross card. These messages were read. We were not allowed to mention

25 important names and dates. Afterwards, these pencils were taken away from

Page 4355

1 us. That is to say that I can only try to remember.

2 Mr. Miro Tadic, my professor, came to Batkovici on several

3 occasions until the end of 1992. I cannot recall whether it was two or

4 three times. He brought a list of my fellow citizens from Bosanski

5 Samac. He personally read that list, meaning who was supposed to be

6 exchanged.

7 Most people from the list were from the hangar; however, it would

8 happen that some of my fellow citizens would be on the list, and these

9 people were in their houses in Bosanski Samac. He registered this

10 diligently, and when he returned to Bosanski Samac, as far as I know, he

11 collected these people who were at their homes, put them on buses, and

12 took them to lines of delineation in order to have them exchanged.

13 As far as I can remember, this is when the religious holidays were

14 coming up, as the end of the year would be coming up, that is to say, the

15 23rd, the 24th of December, 1992. I cannot recall exactly. There were

16 faster exchanges, two or three of them, because of the religious

17 holidays.

18 Once I managed to get through all of this commotion through my

19 fellow citizens. I already said that there were a lot of old people,

20 exhausted people, young people, crippled people, and many of my fellow

21 citizens and many citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina wanted to get to Mr. Miro

22 Tadic. I managed somehow to pass through this throng, and I said,

23 "Professor, I need to talk to you."

24 Q. Can I ask you just to stop there? I'm interested in what you're

25 about to say, but I'll get to that later. I'd just like to cast your mind

Page 4356

1 back to times, okay, so that we can assist the Chamber on that inquiry

2 about when it was that Mr. Tadic came to visit you.

3 Now, in your last answer, you said that he came to Batkovic on

4 several occasions until the end of 1992. You said yesterday that you were

5 exchanged -- sorry, that you were transferred to Batkovic in late November

6 of 1992. Is it your position that he came on these two or three occasions

7 sometime between late November 1992 and the end of that year? Is that

8 what your memory tells you?

9 A. Yes. Yes. That's the period I meant.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just permit me to just reread

12 briefly his last answer?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

15 Q. All right. Now, you started to tell us about this occasion when

16 you were able to approach Mr. Tadic, and I'd like you now to continue your

17 narrative there. You've already described that there were a lot of people

18 who wanted to get to him. My first question -- to get to him and speak to

19 him. My first question is: Why did they all want to approach him and

20 speak to him? What was the reason?

21 A. Our understanding was that Miro Tadic could change the list, to

22 add somebody's name to the list so that person would go and be exchanged.

23 Q. On the two or three occasions that he came to Batkovic, did he

24 appear to physically have a list, that is, a piece of paper with names on

25 it? If you can tell us, please do; if you don't know, say so.

Page 4357

1 A. Yes. I said earlier on he had a list in his hands containing the

2 names and surnames of my fellow citizens.

3 Q. Thank you. All I want to know is if that was the case, that he

4 had such a list on the two or three occasions that he came.

5 A. Every time he had a list.

6 Q. Thank you. On the occasions that he came, did you attempt to get

7 close to him to be able to speak to him on the topic of exchanges?

8 A. Yes. When I got closer, I addressed him. I just said,

9 "Professor, may I talk to you a bit?" This was already the end. The

10 list had already been read out of the persons who were supposed to pack

11 and go for an exchange.

12 We went in the direction of the gate, the big iron gate. Its

13 dimensions were about 15 by about 7 metres. The guards who were around

14 him moved aside and the two of us walked through this iron gate into the

15 yard. The yard had a fence all around it, a wire fence. By "wire fence,"

16 I already mentioned that.

17 The two of us exchanged a few words and I said to him, "Professor,

18 I am ready to give some money for helping the Serb army. Please put me on

19 that list." He asked me, exactly, as he was looking into the ground,

20 "Where have you got this money?" And I said to him that I haven't got

21 any money on me, because the exchange goes through my town every time.

22 This was the ongoing practice. When I go to town, I would borrow money

23 from someone. He said, "All right. We'll see." And he continued walking

24 towards the exit out of this fenced-off yard. My task was to go back to

25 the hangar. I was awaiting the result.

Page 4358

1 The last time, to the best of my knowledge, he came to the area of

2 that camp in June 1993. I did not have an opportunity to see him.

3 My fellow citizens say that this was the last exchange that was

4 carried out through the Samac commission. I was disappointed, and I spent

5 the rest of the time there. And I don't know which town it was that

6 exchanged me and which commission.

7 Q. This conversation that you had with Mr. Tadic, was it the only

8 conversation that you had with him during two or three occasions that he

9 came to Batkovic? In other words, did you not speak to him on other

10 occasions?

11 A. I did not have an opportunity to get close to him.

12 Q. Did you in fact have money available to pay if things had worked

13 out to your advantage?

14 A. I had some money at home. It was hidden away. When leaving my

15 town, my son, when he was leaving, he took this and everything was taken

16 away from him, snatched away from him at the line. I have certificates to

17 that effect.

18 Q. Why did you make this approach in this particular way, offering

19 money? What was your reasoning?

20 A. I was afraid of being robbed at home. My son had stayed back, and

21 I was already informed at the SUP, when I was detained there, by the other

22 inmates who were brought in after me, that my wife was taken to a camp as

23 well. So I was afraid that apartments would be searched because there was

24 robbery and looting all over the place.

25 Q. Yes. I think perhaps you misunderstand me. My question really is

Page 4359

1 directed to the issue of the money, the offer of the money. Why did you

2 offer him money? I mean, I understand what your ultimate purpose was, but

3 why did you choose that means to bring about your ultimate purpose of

4 getting an exchange?

5 A. Every camp inmate, the way I saw it, could not get out. Otherwise

6 either his family would give money or he personally would give money and

7 then he would be put on a list.

8 Q. Is that what you heard from other inmates, that they would pay

9 money to get out?

10 A. Yes. I heard from other inmates and also from my family.

11 Q. Is what you heard from other inmates and from what you heard from

12 your family connected with your offer of money? Is that the reason why

13 you, you offered money to Mr. Tadic?

14 A. I had a lot of time to think about this, why I wasn't on the list,

15 and as I talked about this with my other camp inmates, I came to this idea

16 on my own.

17 Q. What did you hear from the camp inmates, the other camp inmates,

18 as to the practice of offering money? What was your understanding?

19 A. That these people who had the misfortune of remaining at home,

20 that they gave money in order to be put on the list and be exchanged. We

21 who were detained could not have any money on ourselves because there were

22 frequent searches and money was taken away from us. So if some fortunate

23 person would have his family at home pay money for him, then he would be

24 on the list, and that is quite well known.

25 Q. Were you aware of such cases, such instances, in the time that you

Page 4360

1 were in Batkovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In the time that you were at Batkovic, up to mid-1993 when

4 Mr. Tadic last came, were there other men coming with lists, other men

5 doing the same sort of job or performing the same sort of role as

6 Mr. Tadic or was he the only one?

7 A. The other accused who are here, I never saw them there, and I

8 didn't hear of them coming there. However, other teams did come. They

9 read lists, and they took detained people from there.

10 Q. In the time that you were in Batkovic, did you get any news of

11 your wife's whereabouts?

12 A. When I was registered the first time, after the 11th of August, as

13 being a camp inmate, on the 13th of December the following thing

14 happened: It was the first time I got a little piece of paper and a

15 pencil giving me the right to write to my family. To the best of my

16 knowledge, my family was no longer in Samac. I could not remember any

17 other addresses. So I wondered who I should write to.

18 I talked about this to the gentlemen from the Red Cross, and they

19 said to me that I should write the name and surname of my daughter, [redacted]

20 [redacted], and that they would try to find her. That is

21 what I did. That was my first contact with the world, through a piece of

22 paper and a pencil, on the 13th of December, 1992.

23 JUDGE SINGH: So, Witness, at the end of the day, did you pay any

24 money to Tadic?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not, because I got out in

Page 4361

1 1994, and to the best of my knowledge, he was not coming after the month

2 of June 1993.

3 MR. DI FAZIO:

4 Q. By the time you came to be exchanged in October 1994, were there

5 many Bosanski Samac people left in the hangar?

6 A. When I was taken to the line of delineation, as far as I can

7 remember, there were about 20 of us camp inmates. About 40 stayed behind

8 after me, who were still detained.

9 Q. Have you got any idea as to why it was that you were chosen to go

10 on that particular date? In other words, was there any rhyme or reason as

11 to October 1994 as opposed to June 1994 or some other day?

12 A. I think that only God brought this joy to me.

13 Q. What did you do after you were exchanged? Did you stay in

14 Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes. When I got out into the besieged Sarajevo, a transporter

16 took me. I think the transporter belonged to the UN. This lasted quite

17 awhile. However, the drive was only 500 metres. When I got out to some

18 kind of freedom, I thought that this was unreal. So for a long time, I

19 walked around a table where I was supposed to give my name and surname, my

20 year of birth and to say where I was from.

21 I was brought to another town which was unknown to me then because

22 that town had changed completely. When I came to a bit, I registered

23 there, and I asked these gentlemen who were working there on exchanges, or

24 to be more precise, Amor Masovic was there then. "Sir, I came to Sarajevo

25 several times. Tell me where is the centre? In which direction is the

Page 4362

1 Cengic Vila?" Because from earlier on, I had my brother there, Cengic

2 Vila, and I had intended to go to his place.

3 Everything seemed foreign to me. There weren't any trees around

4 me. Houses had been destroyed. There was nothing lively about the

5 place. Sarajevo was an empty town. Later on, I found out that these

6 people who were in Sarajevo were praying to God to get out of town. To

7 the best of my knowledge, Sarajevo was besieged, and there were three

8 encirclements around it: sniper shooters, tanks, mortars. Every day,

9 including that day, as far as I can remember, we were shelled in Sarajevo.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. di Fazio. I was about to ask where we were

12 going.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, I just want to know: Were you

15 eventually reunited with your family? I just want to know when, if and

16 when that occurred.

17 A. I was taken, and I will find this out later, to the command of the

18 1st Corps, where I gave them my information: who I am, where I'm from, my

19 date of birth. And I told him, "I have a brother," and they called him

20 immediately on the telephone. And at the first moment, we couldn't even

21 recognise one another. He had lost a lot of weight. He was deformed, and

22 most probably this is how I looked to him as well. We exchanged a few

23 words. We were not able to stand. We went towards his house under a rain

24 of bullets, a shower of bullets. When I got to the house, I had

25 difficulty recognising everything. His two daughters were with him. We

Page 4363

1 didn't have anything to eat that day. However, we were happy because we

2 were beginning to come together again.

3 Q. Were you reunited with your wife eventually?

4 A. It wasn't possible to call. There was no possibility. However,

5 some phone numbers -- or some telephones, which I didn't know before, were

6 at the Presidency, so my brother took me there and we told them about my

7 case, and they made it possible to get in touch with my wife from the

8 Presidency building, with my wife who was with my daughter in Austria.

9 I told her that I was released, and she asked, "What have you

10 decided?" And I said, knowing the situation in Sarajevo, the hunger, the

11 exhaustion, the siege, it was not possible to leave Sarajevo, but I was

12 offered by the UNPROFOR, the Red Cross, and the government to take me

13 out. Sarajevo looked big to me. Most probably, after that hangar and

14 that cell where I spent 27 and a half months, I didn't want to leave

15 Sarajevo. My wife took her bags and she came to Sarajevo. She entered

16 beneath the ground, through some tunnel, which I will later use on many

17 occasions. We remained there the whole time, until the news in the year

18 2000, in the month of October, when the Serbian government decided to

19 return my property to me, which was completely destroyed.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. And within 20 days, I --

22 Q. Sorry. I cut you off. Within 20 days you did what?

23 A. I packed, and on my own expense, [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]. That's how I estimate the time.

Page 4364

1 Q. Thank you. Can you give us a brief description, please, of the

2 state of [redacted] when you returned. What sort of condition

3 was it in, was it being used, that sort of thing. And just make it brief,

4 okay? We just need a brief summary of what's happened in respect of your

5 property, and we'll start with [redacted], okay?

6 A. When I arrived at Bosanski Samac, [redacted]

7 [redacted].

8 Q. What's the name of this lady?

9 A. [redacted].

10 Q. How much rent did she pay to you?

11 A. I never received a single dinar.

12 Q. [redacted]

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. di Fazio, I'm advised because of the

14 difficulties of spotting identifying matters of the witness, maybe we move

15 into private session now that we appear to be closing in on his family.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful for that. I'm sorry. Once again, it

17 escaped my mind, and I'm grateful to the Chamber for reminding me. Thank

18 you.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: So just a few minutes.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are now in open session.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Zecevic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. I'm attorney Slobodan

25 Zecevic. I will ask you some questions. And I kindly ask you, and I will

Page 4370

1 also try to formulate my questions in such a way, that you respond with

2 "yes," "no," or, "I don't know," to my questions if you don't know.

3 Sir, let's go back a little bit in relation to the questions that

4 were asked you by the Prosecutor. I would like to take you back to the

5 fire at [redacted]. If you remember,

6 on page 6, line 16 of the unofficial transcript, you explained that an

7 article appeared in the [redacted] magazine, if I understood you properly.

8 A. Mr. Zecevic, it wasn't some article. [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 Q. So yes, there was an article in the [redacted] magazine?

11 A. Yes, there was an article in the [redacted] magazine.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Can I remind the witness, please, since you're

13 speaking the same language with counsel, do remember to pause before you

14 answer counsel's questions, because the interpreters have to complete

15 interpreting the question by counsel.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. In the transcript, when you paraphrase the contents of that

18 article from the [redacted] magazine, you said that it was something in -- along

19 the general lines of there was another burning in Bosanski Samac and

20 another explosion on such-and-such a day. Is this what you said?

21 A. There was another burning, [redacted]

22 [redacted].

23 Q. Allow me to read it back to you. I will read it in English

24 because the transcript is in English.

25 [In English] "Yes. Time at the beginning of 1992, an article

Page 4371

1 appeared in a weekly paper [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]. And there was a photograph and also an article on one page with

4 a general -- I cannot tell -- I cannot tell you the general sense of the

5 whole article word by word, but it went something like this: `In Bosanski

6 Samac, there's been another burning and another explosion on such-and-such

7 date. A weekend house and a farm burned down owned by -- it burned down.

8 It is assumed that there were weapons there, that the owner held SDA

9 weapons at that location.'"

10 [Interpretation] Did you state this yesterday?

11 A. Yes, something like that. It was assumed that there were arms

12 there. This is what I stated, sir.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me -- you also mention an

14 explosion.

15 A. Yes, I mention an explosion.

16 Q. Was there an explosion or not?

17 A. I'm not -- I wasn't there. The firefighters and the MUP were

18 there, and they have an official report. [redacted]

19 [redacted] the

20 firefighters were concerned that this would blow up and hurt other people,

21 and this is stated in the official report on this event.

22 Q. Thank you. I would like to read another portion from your

23 testimony of yesterday. This is a section of the unofficial transcript,

24 page 32, line 7 onwards:

25 [In English] "Now that I remember, and when I analyse, my town

Page 4372

1 seemed more like a barracks to me, a barracks that was within firing

2 range, and also the target of other weapons, so that the separation line,

3 the line of separation, was in direction of [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted], so that we lived inside as if we

6 were exposed to constant shelling."

7 [Interpretation] Is it true? Did you state this?

8 A. Yes, that is what I said.

9 Q. Could you please tell me, sir: What you stated was something that

10 referred to the entire town of Bosanski Samac or it only referred to your

11 house?

12 A. To the entire town of Bosanski Samac.

13 Q. This means so that the town was practically encircled and was

14 targeted the entire time?

15 A. Yes, it was encircled. It was encircled, and we were a target.

16 Q. It was constantly shelled; is that true?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you said that this referred to the whole town, I assume you

19 mean that it included all of the citizens of that town.

20 A. Yes, it did include all of the citizens of that town.

21 Q. This shelling and this feeling that you had, is that what you

22 meant when at one point, on page 37, line 10, you said:

23 [In English] "At every moment, from the 17th of April until I was

24 released, until I was sort of set free, I was exposed to danger"?

25 [Interpretation] Did you mean this also? Is that what you meant?

Page 4373

1 A. Yes, that too. That was also one of the reasons. Because it

2 would happen that my citizens, my fellow citizens in the town of Samac,

3 would be killed in the yards of their homes or in the rooms where we were

4 held, where we were detained in the SUP and TO buildings. Many of them

5 were killed in this way.

6 Q. From shells?

7 A. From shells. According to my information, a number of children

8 and women were also victims of the shells, women who were not active, and

9 also a large number of civilians. Some of those civilians were also being

10 held at the TO and the SUP.

11 Q. Thank you. Regarding your work in April of 1992 and onwards, you

12 stated, on page 31, line 25 of the unofficial transcript from yesterday,

13 you stated the following:

14 [In English] "We would load those sandbags into a truck and then

15 used them to protect certain buildings in Samac, like the municipal

16 building. We would also place these sandbags in front or behind windows,

17 as a parapet."

18 [Interpretation] Is this what you stated?

19 A. Yes, that is what I meant.

20 Q. Could you please tell me: The building of the Municipal Assembly

21 of Bosanski Samac, it's in the centre of town?

22 A. It's right by the river.

23 Q. On the other side of the river is Croatia; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So this is one of the places from which Bosanski Samac was

Page 4374

1 shelled; is that true?

2 A. I wouldn't know that.

3 Q. Could you please tell me, if you can remember: How high up did

4 you put these sandbags on the municipality building?

5 A. Two or three rows from the window sill, so there could be a bit of

6 light inside the building as well.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: May the usher please show the photograph -- I

8 believe it's P14, and the photograph is number F46.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: P14A, I think.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: P14A.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Zecevic, please.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I've been clicking it off and on. I'm

14 sorry.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's a bit of a task. We have to comply.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: You can put it on the ELMO.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, could you please tell me: Is this the

18 municipality building?

19 A. Yes, this is the municipality building in my town of Bosanski

20 Samac.

21 Q. Could you please be so kind as to use the pointer and show us how

22 high up these sandbags went on the municipality building.

23 A. I'm going to avail myself of this opportunity, now that I've been

24 given the floor. This is the building, and 300 metres away from it, over

25 here, is this Spomen Dom. That was surrounded by sand. We loaded sand

Page 4375

1 into bags and we put it in, and then we loaded the sandbags into the

2 little truck owned by Hurtic. The little truck transported sand up to the

3 municipality building. Then we took these sandbags and then we went

4 through the hall and then we went to the fourth or fifth door there. I

5 know the municipality as well as I know my own pocket. This window here

6 and this window there were for the president of the municipality at that

7 time. That's what people talked amongst us. And this was for Milan

8 Simic. That's what people were saying. And it was nicely decorated

9 inside. There was also a TV set, tables, things like that.

10 Three or four rows we placed there, to the best of my knowledge,

11 because the sandbags were longer than the window sill, so they were a bit

12 folded. So then we put three or four sandbags up to the half of the

13 window, and then there would be some room left towards the top of the

14 window so that light could get in. If necessary, I can clarify this more.

15 Q. Thank you. Tell me, did you put the sandbags inside as well?

16 A. We went in through the building and then we put the sandbags

17 there. Some people helped from the outside so that they would not fall

18 off; and those who had the task of working inside, there was an open

19 window, and then we placed these sandbags on the window sill on the

20 outside.

21 Q. If I manage to understand what you've been saying, it is only the

22 upper part of the window that was used for bringing sunlight in; all the

23 rest was covered by sandbags.

24 A. Well, my estimate is that the sandbags took up about half of the

25 window.

Page 4376

1 Q. These sandbags prevented light from coming in and sound; right?

2 A. No, sir. These sandbags were there for saving people, because the

3 shells would fall there from the line of separation. So it was because of

4 shrapnel, so that shrapnel could not fall directly into the building.

5 That is why these sandbags were put there.

6 Q. Yes. Yes. I have understood that, but I'm asking you, to the

7 best of your knowledge: These sandbags that were used as protection from

8 shrapnel also prevented light and sound from getting into the buildings;

9 right?

10 A. Well, these sandbags probably did that. There was less light in

11 these facilities, and also there was less noise, if they managed to give

12 that kind of protection.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the usher please --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Zecevic, please.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone, Counsel.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. Could you please show the witness the

18 photograph number F56.

19 Q. Sir, this is the SUP yard, isn't it?

20 A. Sir, Mr. Slobodan, this is the yard of the SUP building where I

21 was locked up for three and a half months, underneath from where this

22 picture is, or, rather, three metres down are the windows where I was

23 detained for three months. I kept looking through this window all the

24 time. Oh, yes. This is the location of the SUP yard.

25 Q. Thank you. That's what I wished to know only.

Page 4377

1 Tell me, towards the top you can see some willows and the river.

2 Is that the Sava?

3 A. Mr. Slobodan Zecevic, these willows were full of communication

4 trenches where Serb soldiers were. And since I had the opportunity of

5 digging these trenches and cleaning them, these other willows towards the

6 top, they have other parapets and other trenches. Who was digging for

7 them and who was there at that time, I didn't know at the time. That is

8 territory of the previous Croatia and nowadays of the State of Croatia.

9 Between these two rows of poplars is my Sava River.

10 Q. Could you please use the pointer and point out the Sava River and

11 Croatia?

12 A. The Sava is here. Croatia is here.

13 Q. Thank you. Tell me, in the left-hand corner of this photograph,

14 we can also see a prefabricated building. This prefabricated building, is

15 it in fact in the yard of the municipality?

16 A. Yes. Before, these were garages that were intended for parking

17 vehicles.

18 Q. Please point all of this out on the ELMO.

19 A. Yes. All of these garages were made previously, before the 17th

20 of April, and they were used to park vehicles. And when the 17th of April

21 happened, many were used for detaining my fellow citizens.

22 So in garage number 4, there were two of my fellow citizens

23 detained in there, and they spent all of their time there while I was at

24 the SUP.

25 Q. I really do not wish to interrupt you. I beg your pardon. But I

Page 4378

1 just asked you about the prefabricated building in the left-hand corner of

2 the picture. That is in the yard of the municipality building.

3 A. Are you saying building number 1?

4 Q. No. See in the left-hand corner, you can see a roof and some

5 windows? Yes, that's it. Precisely.

6 A. This is part of the municipality building, of the municipal

7 assembly building. That is where the land surveyors were, those who

8 measured our ploughing fields and our houses and all the property we had

9 before 1992.

10 Q. Are you trying to say that this is where the land surveyors were

11 before the 17th of April, 1992? Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know whether this building was used at all after the 17th

14 of April, 1992?

15 A. Many buildings like the municipal assembly that we saw awhile ago

16 were moved to safer locations. I personally, sometime in the month of

17 June 1992 while I was still apparently free, from the attic of the

18 municipal assembly building, I collected documents and carried them to the

19 premises downstairs, the second room on the left-hand side. When you

20 enter through the entrance door of my municipal assembly, that's where it

21 is.

22 We talked about this, but it seemed that it was to prevent these

23 documents from having a shell fall on top of that building and then

24 burning all of these documents.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. If I could ask the witness --

Page 4379

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13 English transcripts.

14

15

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24

25

Page 4380

1 MR. ZECEVIC: By all means, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: -- a question.

3 Witness, could you tell the Chamber whether the prefabricated

4 building on the left of the picture also had sandbags halfway up the

5 windows there.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring to this building

7 here?

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not enter that building during

10 the course of the war. I don't know whether there were sandbags there.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

12 JUDGE SINGH: Just one question following from that. Looking at

13 that picture, you pointed out the Sava River, the trenches on this side of

14 the Sava River, your side, and then the barricades on the other side of

15 the Sava River, the barricades of the Croats. Now, when you refer to the

16 sandbags being placed there for protective measure, was it from the shells

17 coming from the Croat side across the Sava River?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The shells were coming from all

19 sides, shells unknown to me. I said before where the separation line was

20 in my town. It was driven through, so to speak. So I'm going to repeat

21 this.

22 On the left-hand side, in my estimate, about 500 metres away from

23 my house which is in the centre of town; or from this location, 700 metres

24 as the crow flies, from the western side; on the northern side, 150

25 metres. From the eastern side, 2 to 3 kilometres.

Page 4381

1 I don't know exactly where they were coming from, but they were

2 coming every day from all sides.

3 JUDGE SINGH: My specific question was: Did shells also come from

4 the Croat side?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a civilian at that time, I had

6 concluded that they were coming from that side, too.

7 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: May I proceed? Thank you.

9 Thank you, Mr. Usher.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, tell me, do you remember -- since we're on

11 the subject of shelling, do you remember that the Croatian air force

12 attacked Bosanski Samac?

13 A. At that time, sir, I had already been detained, but I heard,

14 because news spread quickly amongst us, that some aircraft had come either

15 in October or November, to the best of my knowledge. And we laughed a

16 bit. That's what they told us, that that side did not have any weapons.

17 It was an agriculture aircraft that had come and that had thrown gas

18 canisters that were full of dynamite and pieces of iron, and they exploded

19 in my town, the location of the street that was formerly called Ivo Lola

20 Ribar. [redacted].

21 [redacted]. And this location is near the

22 waterworks, the waterworks that supplied our town with water, that is.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. I'm going to read another portion of your

24 statement from yesterday to you. Just bear with me for a second, please.

25 [In English] "As we were passing by, if we were going on foot, it

Page 4382

1 was very, very difficult to move because there were frequent checks in the

2 town."

3 [Interpretation] Can you hear me, sir?

4 [In English] "And they were practically capturing Muslims and

5 Croats only because their name wasn't right. And they would take them to

6 the municipal building. And all of us citizens knew that, so that even

7 when we were going home on our way back from work, then we will hide."

8 [Interpretation] Is this what you stated?

9 A. Yes, sir, something to that effect, like what it was -- like what

10 was interpreted to me right now. I don't know whether that is what was

11 written down as well, but if necessary, I can repeat all of this.

12 Q. I'm just interested in this, what you said, the municipal

13 assembly. Have you referred to the municipal assembly building or some

14 other building? Could you please tell me what you meant if you meant

15 another building?

16 A. The MUP building.

17 Q. Thank you. Tell me, sir, we are going to show you a document now

18 that was shown to you yesterday as well.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Show the Witness P35, please. I believe that's the

20 order which the Prosecutor produced yesterday. It's P35, according to my

21 knowledge. Maybe it's a different number. I have it over here.

22 Mr. Usher, if --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Usually when we have already got the

24 document --

25 MR. ZECEVIC: No. I'm sorry, Your Honour. I wrote "P35," but I

Page 4383

1 believe with --

2 THE REGISTRAR: Thirty-six.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thirty-six. Yes. That's why I --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So the correct number is P36.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: That's right. Please put it on the ELMO.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, please take a look at this document that is

7 in front of you in the B/C/S language.

8 A. Yes, I can see that.

9 Q. Tell me, please, this order pertained to all persons, all citizens

10 of Bosanski Samac; isn't that right?

11 A. This order I never had in my hands, but often I heard through the

12 mass media in Bosanski Samac. I don't know what this referred to or who

13 this referred to, but most probably everybody had to observe this.

14 Q. Could you please be so kind as to look at it, look at this order?

15 Please read the text. I mean, you don't have to read it out loud. Read

16 it to yourself. We have an English version here.

17 Just tell me whether there is anything that states ethnic

18 background or something like that.

19 A. Mr. Zecevic, I did not come here to prove anything. I came here

20 to say this. Namely, what I heard and saw.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, you answer the questions put to you by

22 counsel. If you don't know, you say so. If you can't tell by looking at

23 this document and answer the question put to you by counsel, you say so.

24 I do agree with you that you may not be able to interpret

25 documents. So you simply say you don't know or you can't tell. Don't be

Page 4384

1 rude to counsel.

2 A. I do apologise if that is how I have been understood. However,

3 behind your back is a large number of my fellow citizens. I believe that

4 they all knew that.

5 Those previous prohibitions as far as ethnic background is

6 concerned, on the 17th of April, this remains imprinted in my memory.

7 Also this order that I see here in front of me, I think that it

8 related only to Bosniaks and Croats, because during the curfew hours, the

9 citizens of Serb ethnicity had to hold the lines and move about town.

10 Q. Sir, I just asked you to tell me whether in this document there is

11 anything stating that this refers to citizens of Croat and Muslim

12 ethnicity or not, or whether it pertains to all citizens; just that, yes

13 or no.

14 A. This document pertains to all citizens of Bosanski Samac.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, when you talked about that certificate that

18 you got three or four days later, after the 17th of April, actually, in

19 1992, you said that you came to the Uniglas building.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Over there, there were some other people who were waiting. You

22 said that they were all of Serb ethnicity; isn't that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You talked to them. Were they also seeking such certificates?

25 A. I had the opportunity of talking to them for about four or five

Page 4385

1 minutes, and they were seeking these certificates too.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Just bear with me, Your Honours.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Tell me, please: Like you, these were people who had some

6 business there, and that's what they needed these certificates for; right?

7 A. They were citizens of Serb ethnicity. They wore camouflage

8 uniforms. They did not have any weapons. I don't know what their

9 business was. Like my fellow citizen Laza Devetka, who needed a

10 certificate to get some business done in Serbia. I don't know what his

11 business was.

12 Q. Thank you. Tell me: When you entered this room where you saw

13 Milan Simic, you said in the transcript that with him,

14 Mr. Jovanovic -- there was Mr. Jovanovic with him too.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. This is Mirko Jovanovic; right?

17 A. No. Oh, I'm sorry. I don't know his name, but I shall describe

18 him, so if necessary, my fellow citizens will know who he is. Before the

19 17th of April, he was head of the economic department in the Municipal

20 Assembly of Bosanski Samac. He wore a beard. I don't know where he was

21 from. I think he was from the territory of Orasje. However, he had got a

22 job in Bosanski Samac perhaps a year or a year and a half before the war

23 operations started.

24 Q. So he was head of the economic department in Bosanski Samac before

25 the 17th of April?

Page 4386

1 A. If I introduced him properly.

2 Q. Let us just clarify one thing, please: This person whom you saw

3 in that room, with the last name of Jovanovic, was head of the economic

4 department in Bosanski Samac in the municipality of Bosanski Samac before

5 the 17th of April, 1992; is that correct?

6 A. That is to say that he worked in the Municipal Assembly. He was

7 the second person there in terms of importance, in terms of the categories

8 involved. It was the president of the municipality and then him.

9 Q. Thank you. Tell me: You know Milan Simic and his family well;

10 right?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Did Milan work as a clerk for this Mr. Jovanovic at that time or

13 not?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. You don't know?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Thank you. Sir, let me ask you something else now. You discussed

18 that yesterday with the Prosecutor during your examination. As far as I

19 can remember, you did your military service, didn't you?

20 A. Yes. I did my military service in 1972.

21 Q. In 1992, you were a reserve military conscript, weren't you?

22 A. I had my war assignment, wartime assignment, that if war were to

23 break out, I was supposed to report [redacted]. I was not a

24 member of the TO until the 16th of April, 1992. I had a wartime

25 assignment. That's the way things were in our country. Everybody knew

Page 4387

1 where they were supposed to report. I was supposed to report at

2 [redacted].

3 Q. So that was the place -- that was the wartime assignment that you

4 had before 1992?

5 A. Yes, sir. That's right.

6 Q. In this company, at [redacted], that's where you worked; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You have worked there for a long number of years; right?

9 A. On the 15th of December, 1969.

10 Q. You started working then and you've been working there from then

11 onwards?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. [redacted]

14 A. [redacted]

15 Q. Do you know, since you worked in this state-owned enterprise and

16 you had your wartime assignment there, et cetera, do you know that work

17 obligation in case of an immediate threat of war or threat of war was the

18 obligation of each and every citizen?

19 A. Yes, I know that. It was the obligation of each and every

20 citizen.

21 Q. Thank you. This obligation was general, wasn't it, except for

22 those who were military conscripts?

23 A. I did not quite understand your question, but I agree with you

24 that that's the way it is.

25 Q. When I put this question to you, I was referring to the

Page 4388

1 following. Let me just explain this to you in order to prevent any

2 misunderstandings. Work obligation was general, whereas military

3 obligation pertained to those who had wartime assignments, that is to say,

4 military-aged men between the ages of 18 and 60; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So if you were involved in the military obligation, if you had a

7 wartime assignment, then you did not have a work obligation; right?

8 A. Yes. My wartime assignment was to report at the gasoline station,

9 because this was of military significance.

10 Q. Tell me, if you remember: In 1992, did you want to join the JNA?

11 A. Yes. I had already been there. I considered myself to belong to

12 the JNA units.

13 Q. Could you please explain how you considered this?

14 A. I don't understand your question.

15 Q. Were you in some JNA unit in April 1992?

16 A. No, I was not.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: I see it's 11.00. Maybe it's ...

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will take our break and resume at 1130

19 hours.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We will continue later.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome, Slobodan.

22 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at a 11.33 a.m.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The cross-examination is continuing.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 4389

1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, just one request. I've been warned by the

2 interpreters, so please wait until my question is completely interpreted

3 and then begin with your answer. I will try to be as slow as possible,

4 and I would ask you also to do the same. The interpreters work very hard,

5 and we need to give them time to translate everything that's being said.

6 A. Yes. I understood. I will try to fit in. It's not -- I'm not

7 used to sitting here and answering questions.

8 Q. Thank you. Sir, please tell me: On the 16th of April, you joined

9 the TO of the BH; is that right?

10 A. Yes. On the 16th of April, 1992. I joined as soon as I received

11 a weapon. I joined the TO of the BH.

12 Q. Thank you. I would like to go back to some documents that the

13 Prosecutor showed you yesterday.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Would the usher please show the Witness P39 ter.

15 Q. [Interpretation] You remember the document from yesterday, don't

16 you?

17 A. Yes. This is a list of names from 1 to 9, the names of my fellow

18 citizens.

19 Q. Could you please tell me: In column number 3, under the column --

20 under the title "Work post," their duties, their work is stated, isn't

21 it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You said that you know the gentleman under number 2. Is that

24 true?

25 A. Yes. This is my fellow citizen Dzevad Celic, and [redacted]

Page 4390

1 [redacted].

2 Q. Do you know the gentleman under number 1?

3 A. This is my fellow citizen Sejfudin Sejdinovic. [redacted]

4 [redacted].

5 Q. So you do know him.

6 A. Everybody on the list.

7 Q. Sir, could you please tell me if you know whether this group of

8 nine people made up the list of people for work obligation.

9 A. I don't know whether they did or not.

10 Q. In the title, it says: "The clerks and others, DR, for the

11 brigades." Is that what it says?

12 A. Yes, that's what it says.

13 Q. Could you tell me what is the usual job, the usual work of the

14 clerks?

15 A. The clerks, as far as I know, work with pens and paper.

16 Q. Thank you. Sir, could you please tell me the following: In your

17 previous statement, you said that as far as you know, the gentleman under

18 number 2, your family friend, did not work as a clerk up until the 11th of

19 August, i.e. up until the date that you were detained.

20 A. Yes. Dzevad Celic went with me to the work assignments several

21 times. He wasn't working as a clerk until the 11th of August, 1992.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: May I have the document number 1, which I -- Your

23 Honours, I would like to introduce a document and be marked for

24 identification. Actually, this is -- this is the payment list of the

25 reference typists, the couriers, and the other couriers who are working on

Page 4391

1 the organisation of work in the working brigade. That's the title of the

2 document.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: During the period --

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. During the period from April until August.

5 Actually, if I may just assist the Court.

6 When I disclosed the document P39 ter to the Prosecutor, this

7 document was actually the second page of that document when I disclosed it

8 to the -- yesterday the Prosecutor used this page only, and this second

9 page is basically referring to the first page. But in any case, I would

10 like to introduce it.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: So we haven't had that page which you call the

12 second page?

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry?

14 JUDGE MUMBA: We haven't received that page which you call the

15 second page?

16 MR. ZECEVIC: You haven't seen it. I'm just now introducing it.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So we can have it marked for

18 identification only. It hasn't got the official English translation, not

19 yet?

20 MR. ZECEVIC: No, Your Honours, I'm afraid not, not yet.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: For identification purposes only.

22 THE REGISTRAR: The identification number will be D23/2 ter.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, might I just cross the

24 courtroom and confer with my colleague? I'd like to make sure that I've

25 got the same document in my hand that he has.

Page 4392

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Because I can't tell. I suspect I've got the right

3 one, but I'm not sure.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: By all means.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please do so.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. We sorted that out.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Sir, could you please look at this document.

10 A. Yes, I've looked at the document.

11 Q. Would you kindly read the title of the document, on the top of the

12 page.

13 A. "Payment list of the clerk, typist, courier, summons courier, and

14 those working to organise the work in the work brigade."

15 Q. Could you please read the clerk, item number 2.

16 A. It says here the name Dzevad Celic.

17 Q. I would just like to ask you once again to pause between my

18 question and before you begin your answer.

19 After the name and the surname under number 2, in continuation,

20 there are some numbers which pertain to certain months.

21 A. Yes. They pertain to April, May, June, July, and August. Total

22 time, total amount, and also remarks.

23 Q. Could you please tell me: These numbers under item 2 - 4, 26, 31?

24 A. Total number of days, 61.

25 Q. Do you understand this to mean that these are the days that the

Page 4393

1 gentleman under item 2 spent on work duty?

2 A. I understand that as meaning that Dzevad Celic spent 61 days over

3 the past five months as a clerk, working as a clerk.

4 Q. But you claim that this is not true?

5 A. Celic Dzevad did not work as a clerk until the 11th of April.

6 When I was taken into the SUP building, I heard from my fellow citizens

7 who were brought in after me that Mr. Dzevad Celic was working on those

8 duties which are more or less described in the heading of the document. I

9 firmly claim that Dzevad Celic was not a clerk. I have proof of that.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can you just wait? The witness mentioned

12 the 11th of April.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, exactly. That was what I --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Could you clarify that with him?

16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Sir, you said the 11th of April. Did you mean the 11th of August?

18 A. Yes, I did. I meant the 11th of August.

19 Q. Thank you. Could you please also read to me, if you see it on

20 this copy, what it says at the bottom of the page, where the signature

21 is.

22 A. [redacted]. That is the name of my fellow citizen and

23 also my school friend.

24 Q. That's the gentleman who is on this list under item number 1; is

25 that right?

Page 4394

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Above his signature, it states "certified by."

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Does that mean that, according to you, do you understand this to

5 mean that the information that is in this document was verified [redacted]

6 [redacted]?

7 A. I would rather say that he falsified this information.

8 Q. Thank you. If I understood you properly, you allow for the

9 possibility that some of these documents are incomplete because they

10 pertained to the months of April to August, but they were compiled in

11 November. Is that right?

12 A. No, that is not what I meant. I meant that specifically Dzevad

13 Celic was not a clerk, and I have proof for that.

14 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that the same mistake could have

15 appeared in some other documents?

16 A. Yes, I do. It's possible for mistakes to creep up.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Would you be so kind to show the witness two

18 documents simultaneously: D22E/2 ter and P37 ter.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Which documents?

20 MR. ZECEVIC: D22E/2 ter and P37 ter.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you were shown yesterday or the day before

22 both of these documents; is that right?

23 A. Yes. I think that these documents were shown to me. I can see

24 the names and the surnames of my fellow citizens.

25 Q. Thank you. I'm only interested in the following: Could you

Page 4395

1 kindly read the heading of the document that you are holding in your hand,

2 and that is D22E/2 ter. Could you just please read the heading.

3 A. "List of workers engaged in the work brigade for the months of

4 April, May, June, July, and August 1992."

5 Q. Thank you. Would you kindly read the heading of the second

6 document, and that is the document P37 ter.

7 A. "List of the workers engaged in the work brigade for the months of

8 April, May, June, July, and August 1992."

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction: "Payroll list of the

10 workers engaged," and so forth.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Could you please tell me if there is anything above what you have

13 just read to us?

14 A. "Supplemental." "Supplemental payroll list."

15 Q. Do you take this as a document which can be attached to the

16 previous document?

17 A. Sir, I cannot claim something like that. I don't have any reason

18 to claim that, because the previous document has been certified on the

19 last page. The earlier, previous pages are not certified anywhere, and

20 this document here is certified. And I would say that it belonged to some

21 other document which is not certified at the end.

22 Q. When it says "Supplemental payroll list," does that usually

23 indicate that information has been added which was not included in a

24 previous document?

25 A. Yes. That's what it means to me as well.

Page 4396

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. Mr. Usher, you can take the documents.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, yesterday during the examination-in-chief,

4 you said the following, and I will read it back to you --

5 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Zecevic.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE SINGH: I'm so sorry to intervene at this stage. You asked

8 him a question that P37 was supplemental to D22E.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

10 JUDGE SINGH: I assume you have checked both lists and all the 11

11 names are indeed D22E.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry?

13 JUDGE SINGH: Are all the 11 names in D22E?

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE SINGH: You see, you've got 11 names in P37, right?

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

17 JUDGE SINGH: And this is supplemental you put to him.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. And they're already included in this.

19 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. Are they all in D22E?

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, I know, Your Honour. Yes, I know.

21 JUDGE SINGH: I'm asking you to confirm.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Oh. I'm sorry. I didn't understood.

23 JUDGE SINGH: No, no. I'm asking you to confirm if all these

24 names are there.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I have to check it out, Your Honours.

Page 4397

1 JUDGE SINGH: Then you must check this out before you even ask him

2 the question, because if it's not, then it cannot be supplemental.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no, no. Your Honours --

4 JUDGE SINGH: So can you check it out now, please?

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, I will. Please bear with me.

6 Your Honours, what I was referring is that this document, by its

7 title, says "Additional list." That was the only purpose of my questions,

8 that this is additional list.

9 What I'm trying to explain to this Honourable Trial Chamber is

10 that the lists are not complete. So there are some additional lists,

11 because people who are working on that probably missed some of the people

12 who were -- who are not on the original list. That was the only purpose

13 of my question.

14 JUDGE SINGH: So the words "Additional payment" --

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry.

16 JUDGE SINGH: So the words "Additional payment" on the top does

17 not mean additional payment to those persons to whom payment is set out in

18 D22E.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: No. It means additional people which have not been

20 included in this list, the previous -- D22E/2 ter.

21 JUDGE SINGH: Additional names.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Additional names. Exactly.

23 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Let me read to you what you stated earlier. This

Page 4398

1 is unofficial transcript page 42, line 10 onwards:

2 Q. Doing the best you can --

3 [In English] This is the question posed to you from the

4 Prosecutor.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: And please read it slowly.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, of course I will.

7 Q. Doing the best you can, about how many people did

8 you hear of being killed in the way that you've

9 described between April and August when you were

10 arrested?

11 A. I think that I said two or three men. Several

12 persons were wounded.

13 A. Sir, Mr. Slobodan Zecevic, which people did you mean, those who

14 were detained at the SUP or those who were working in the communication

15 trenches or those who were in the town of Bosanski Samac?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the witness is right to ask that.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but I haven't posed the question

18 at all.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: The witness was answering to me before I posed the

21 question to him.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. You hadn't completed. Because it's fair

23 to tell him about which aspect.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course. Of course. It was my intention, but I

25 didn't finish the question and I didn't want to cut short the witness.

Page 4399

1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. I think maybe you can go ahead now.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Excuse me, sir. We probably misunderstood one another. I meant

4 the following: You responded to this question when you were talking about

5 the people who were killed -- while -- killed or wounded while carrying

6 out their work obligation.

7 A. Yes. I understood the question. According to my estimate, two to

8 three men were killed while performing the jobs of digging the

9 communication trenches or cutting the grass in front of the communication

10 trenches. So two or three of my fellow citizens were killed.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Would the usher please show the witness P38 ter

13 document.

14 Q. [Interpretation] You looked at this document yesterday, isn't that

15 so?

16 A. Yes. This document was before me yesterday.

17 Q. Could you please tell me, under the heading "Killed," how many

18 numbers are there and how many names of people?

19 A. Unfortunately, three people.

20 Q. So this is in accordance with what you told us a little while

21 ago.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Under the heading "Wounded," how many?

24 A. Under that column, "Wounded," four of the citizens from my town.

25 Q. According to your information, is this correct?

Page 4400

1 A. There were many that were wounded. There were many more wounded

2 and there were many more killed.

3 Q. Sir, I'm only thinking -- I'm only limiting myself to those

4 persons who were in the work brigades.

5 A. If you are thinking of the work brigades, when we were taken out

6 from the camps, then I would add, sir, Slobodan Zecevic, that many more of

7 my fellow citizens were killed while digging trenches and carrying out

8 forced labour jobs than there are on this list.

9 Q. I see that we will have to clarify this. The document that is in

10 front of you pertains to the months of April through August 1992; isn't

11 that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. It says "workers in the work brigade" in the heading, and then it

14 says, in brackets, "killed or wounded"; isn't that right?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. A few minutes ago you confirmed that the number of killed persons

17 corresponds to what you remember and what you know; isn't that right?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Now I'm asking you about the number of wounded persons. Does that

20 match what you know? If you don't know, just say "I don't know," and if

21 you do know, say either "yes" or "no."

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That means that it corresponds to your own knowledge; this which

24 is written in this document corresponds to what you know?

25 A. Yes, it does.

Page 4401

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. Very importantly, you did not ask me whether it pertains to these

3 four or five months. You asked me, to the best of my knowledge, whether I

4 agree with the number of persons wounded who were in the work brigades. I

5 said that I did not agree. However, when I see this document, for all

6 these months, to the best of my knowledge, yes, I do agree.

7 Q. I do apologise. My mistake. I shall try to be clearer in the

8 future. I do apologise.

9 Let us just finish with this document. So in your opinion, the

10 facts mentioned in this document are true, to the best of your knowledge?

11 A. Yes, as far as I could be informed of such matters.

12 Q. Tell me, sir: Yesterday when you were answering the Prosecutor's

13 questions in relation to work obligation, a few times you said that you

14 did not know about some persons whose names were read out here, whether

15 they were involved in work obligation or not; isn't that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know that work obligation, as I said, was of a general

18 nature and that it existed in all companies in Bosanski Samac that were

19 operating at the time?

20 A. Had I not been aware of that, that everybody had work obligation,

21 I would not have responded to each and every call-up when we were supposed

22 to go into action [as interpreted]. I would have stayed sitting at home,

23 thinking that it was not my obligation to do this.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 [Defence counsel confer]

Page 4402

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. The witness has said -- it's 48,

2 4. He said "to go into working action" and not "the action."

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, so you want to --

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. May I ask the witness again to clarify that?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: To clarify, yes.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I think that there is a mistake in the transcript, a small one.

8 You said that, "Had I not been aware of that, that everybody had work

9 obligation, I would not have responded to each and every call-up when we

10 were supposed to go into working action." Is that what you said, "work

11 action"?

12 A. I think that's the way I put it. God gave it to all of us. God

13 gave us all eyes, ears, and the power of speech. We are all not the same

14 as far as play with words is concerned. I was referring to forced labour

15 that we went to do every day. There is a possibility that I make a

16 mistake in the future as well.

17 Q. Thank you. Do you know that in companies like the Samac textile

18 industry, there were people who were working in terms of work obligation?

19 A. I know about that firm, and I always tried to sidestep it, because

20 this is where Serb soldiers were staying, those who wore uniforms, and

21 whoever went there would return with bruises. When Serb soldiers would

22 find out that this person was of Muslim ethnicity, then my fellow citizens

23 would sometimes be beaten up at that facility.

24 Q. All right. Do you know then, for example, in the company of

25 Master, did you know that there was work obligation?

Page 4403

1 A. Yes, I know about that. A fellow citizen of mine was working

2 there, and he tried, day after day, as he was going to work obligation at

3 Master, to give us some food while we were detained at the SUP. We were

4 fortunate because his brother was among us. During the first 15 days or

5 so, I was in front -- I was in the front part of the SUP building in

6 Bosanski Samac. I had the opportunity of seeing this man when he went for

7 work obligation. A few times he succeeded in giving us a sandwich or

8 something, so we would share this among ourselves. He had work obligation

9 at Master.

10 Q. Thank you. I am only interested in whether you know that other

11 fellow citizens of yours had work obligation in Bosanski Samac or in other

12 institutions. Just yes or no, please.

13 A. Yes, everybody. All Muslims and Croats had forced work

14 obligation.

15 Q. Is it possible that because they worked in these enterprises, you

16 did not see them there where you worked?

17 A. Yes. Many times when I would be taken to a different location, I

18 would not have the possibility of seeing all my fellow citizens when they

19 were working at other facilities.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Tell me, sir: A while ago, today, this

21 morning, in response to the Prosecutor's question that had to [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell me: [redacted]?

Page 4404

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Please, could you just pause before you answer. I don't even

3 manage to switch off the microphone, and the interpreters should also be

4 assisted.

5 A. Yes, sir. [redacted].

6 Q. Tell me, please: Do you know that in line with the law on

7 abandoned property, the tenants of such shops are duty-bound to pay rent

8 to the municipality? Do you know that?

9 A. No, I don't know about that. I don't know. I considered things

10 like that to be robbery.

11 Q. You say "robbery." Did anybody ever take away your ownership over

12 this shop?

13 A. Yes, as soon as I was detained and exchanged. On several

14 occasions I was told, "What have you got to do in Bosanski Samac?" Or to

15 be more precise, in Serb Samac. "You are here. You have nothing any

16 more. Don't you know that this is Serb land?"

17 Q. In documents concerning [redacted] and the ownership of [redacted]

18 [redacted], ever over these ten years was anybody else's name put in there

19 instead of [redacted]

20 A. I did not have this before me. However, if I am the owner of

21 something, no one can transfer this to someone else's name without my

22 consent.

23 Q. I absolutely agree with you.

24 A. Why are you putting this kind of question to me?

25 Q. In order to clarify some facts. You answered my previous question

Page 4405

1 by saying that you did not know about rent being paid to the municipality

2 for the use of your shop; right?

3 A. I'm not aware of that. And I would wonder where this money went.

4 I would wonder whether a single shop or house was taken away from anyone

5 of Serb background. I would wonder whether all of that which was taken

6 away was returned.

7 Q. You are certainly aware of the fact that this happened all

8 happened over Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sarajevo and elsewhere; isn't that

9 right?

10 A. I felt this on my very own skin quite pronouncedly. [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]. Buildings were made, and many participants in this

13 courtroom here live in these apartments [redacted]

14 [redacted].

15 Q. Of course, you are talking about the time before the 17th of

16 April, 1992, and we here are not interested in that.

17 A. Yes. Yes. That's when we were the owners of that. After the

18 17th, in 1992, I would like to erase all of that, all of it.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. I have a question, actually for

20 yourself, Mr. Zecevic. You were saying that where there were abandoned

21 buildings, the tenants, so I presume new tenants, [redacted]

22 [redacted]--

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: -- would pay rent to the municipality.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Exactly, Your Honour.

Page 4406

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4407

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So what I would like to know is, obviously being

2 unfamiliar with the municipal law there --

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course.

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: -- what did the municipality do with that money

5 that was paid in rent?

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I really can't answer that question,

7 because I don't know what has been done, but during our case we will

8 present the proof that these funds have been under the control of the

9 municipality, and as far as I know, the previous owners, or the real

10 owners, are entitled to ask from the municipality reimbursement of all the

11 rent which was paid to the municipality.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Let's just clarify something. You were talking

15 about these buildings, about the property that your ancestors had in

16 Bosanski Samac.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You thought that this was taken -- you meant that this was taken

19 away from you during the communist regime, right?

20 A. You asked me whether before 1992 I had owned anything.

21 Q. Sir, that's not what I asked you. I just asked you about your

22 boutique, only the boutique.

23 A. Oh, the boutique. The boutique? I was the owner until 1992. And

24 after the month of November 2000, that's when I became the owner again.

25 Q. In the meantime, was somebody else the owner?

Page 4408

1 A. You asked me whether I know that this could be given to someone

2 else, handed over to someone else.

3 Q. Let us just understand each other clearly. There is ownership and

4 there is use. You are the owner but it was used by somebody else because

5 you were not in Bosanski Samac, as we know; right?

6 A. I could not get my personal documents either, let alone documents

7 about ownership over something that I had. So I was kicked out of my own

8 town. I did not get any documents where it said that I was the owner of

9 something. I did not have the possibility of getting my personal ID, and

10 I own that too. Even that was taken away from me. And I only had a card

11 that was issued to me by the Red Cross, the International Red Cross with

12 its seat in Geneva. There was a number on it and a name and a surname, no

13 picture.

14 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Zecevic, what is the exact thrust of your

15 question?

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours --

17 JUDGE SINGH: He says he had a boutique. He owned it in 1992.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

19 JUDGE SINGH: And then in the year 2000, after he came back, he

20 repossessed; right?

21 MR. ZECEVIC: He repossessed it. Exactly, yes.

22 JUDGE SINGH: So what is the question between 1992 and 2000 now?

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, the point, Your Honour, is that his ownership

24 was undisputed all this time.

25 JUDGE SINGH: Yes, but --

Page 4409

1 MR. ZECEVIC: His ownership is undisputed. The possession is the

2 other thing. That was the only question that I wanted to ask him, whether

3 someone else was owning this particular boutique since 1992 until 2000.

4 That was the only thing I wanted to ask. And he said -- I mean, the

5 witness was explaining other things. I just wanted that answer to that

6 question.

7 JUDGE SINGH: I understood you to mean that between the year 1992

8 to the year 2000, whilst he was away, somebody else may have been using

9 it and --

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

11 JUDGE SINGH: -- and the question possibly to ask is: "Did you

12 rent it out? Did you give permission to anybody to use it while you were

13 in detention?" That is the first question.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: No. Exactly, Your Honours, but he answered that

15 question that no rent was paid to him and that he never rented this

16 boutique, while he was examined-in-chief this morning. So I didn't want

17 to repeat myself again.

18 So I know that he didn't rent it on his own will, and he never

19 received the rent. I'm just trying to focus on the ownership, nothing

20 else.

21 JUDGE SINGH: So what is the question? Because he has said that

22 he was the owner.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. But I would like the witness to answer if he

24 knows whether somebody else was, in the meantime, from 1992 until 2001, if

25 somebody else -- was somebody else listed in the books as the owner, so

Page 4410

1 that his ownership was taken away from him.

2 JUDGE SINGH: You must frame the question clearly to him.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: I am trying my best, Your Honours.

4 Q. [Interpretation] I hope you've understood what the point of my

5 question is. Do you know that between 1992 and the year 2000, when this

6 boutique was returned to you, that anybody else's name was in any kind of

7 document as the owner instead of you?

8 A. No, I'm not aware of any such thing.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. I would like to ask the witness a

11 question if I could.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 It would appear from my question to counsel a few minutes ago that

14 for the period that someone was renting your property, between 1992 and

15 the year 2000, that rent would have been paid to the municipality in your

16 town, and it would appear from what we've heard that you would be entitled

17 to go to the municipality in Bosanski Samac and seek compensation for that

18 period, 1992 to 2000.

19 I have two questions for you, Witness. The first is: Were you

20 aware -- are you aware that you're entitled to compensation? And

21 secondly: If you are aware, have you actually, since being back there in

22 your town, have you made a request for compensation and received it?

23 A. Madam, I hope that you've put this question to me.

24 I have been there for 13 months now. During those 13 months, I

25 went to various institutions with the request to bring electricity back to

Page 4411

1 my house. Everything that I had to do, starting with the electricity

2 meter to the switches, nobody wanted to give me a thing. [redacted]

3 [redacted].

4 I have always been given the following answer: that I should find

5 the thief, either by myself or with the assistance of the police of

6 Bosanski Samac, and then that they would prosecute the person who took

7 away my equipment.

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted] had to pay for that pole before

13 the war so that we could get electricity. I said, "People, there was an

14 electricity pole here before." And they said, "Well, it's not there, and

15 if you want electricity, you will have to pay for this pole again and to

16 pay for power being brought to your boutique."

17 When I realised where I came back, when I rented out this boutique

18 to a gentleman of Serb ethnicity, I asked him that he ask for electricity

19 to be returned and that he asked for some kind of compensation. In that

20 case, he did get electricity back within two days. And I paid myself for

21 having the boutique painted, and I put in a few electric switches. And

22 now he is paying rent to me on a regular basis.

23 I did not have the money [redacted]. Wherever I would get,

24 I would have to start with electricity. And then I thought perhaps

25 somebody would give me some other material or some equipment, but I did

Page 4412

1 not meet with any understanding from the commander of the police station

2 to the manager of the power supply company. And the International Red

3 Cross is --

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Witness. My question was directed

5 solely to the issue of the rent that was being paid, the money that was

6 being paid to the municipality and so on. If you could just address

7 that.

8 First of all, did you go, have you been to whatever the official

9 municipal offices are in Bosanski Samac to seek money back for the rent

10 that was paid by whoever was the tenant? Could you answer that, please?

11 A. I was not in a position to ask for that. I didn't even know about

12 these regulations. Not a single citizen of Muslim or Croat ethnicity who

13 returned did get any compensation for the use of either business premises

14 or a house.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

16 JUDGE SINGH: Just a follow-up there. [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]. And from our own savings that we saved up from our salaries, we

24 created this. And we created this new workplace for her. And this was

25 her new workplace until the 17th of April, 1992, until this was taken away

Page 4413

1 and until all the goods were taken away. All of it was plundered.

2 JUDGE SINGH: My simple question is: After -- just before 17th of

3 April, did you -- did you rent this premises out to anybody else? Yes or

4 no?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE SINGH: Okay.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Singh, please.

8 JUDGE SINGH: The next question is: While you were away from 1992

9 to 2000, did you know at any time that somebody was occupying your

10 premises, either operating it as a boutique or operating it as something

11 else, and did he have your permission to do so?

12 A. That person did not have any permission. [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 When we warned her, saying that she was in this facility

16 illegally, without our permission, she answered us over the phone, "What

17 do you want? Do you know that this is Republika Srpska?"

18 JUDGE SINGH: Now, the last question: Did you go to the

19 municipality and find out if she had been paying rent to the municipality,

20 rent which was in fact due to you?

21 A. Your Honour, I did not check this.

22 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: May I proceed?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: May I proceed?

Page 4414

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, let's go back to the period immediately

4 before the 17th of April, 1992. As you told us here, you possessed this

5 semi-automatic weapon.

6 A. Yes, I did, until the 17th of April [as interpreted].

7 Q. Yesterday during the examination-in-chief, you said that you do

8 not remember who gave you this weapon in the TO building.

9 A. Yes. I think that that is what I said.

10 Q. On the 30th of August, you gave a statement to the Prosecution,

11 1998. Is that true?

12 A. I do not remember the exact date.

13 Q. But you did give them a statement; is that right?

14 A. Yes. I gave a statement on several occasions.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Would the usher please assist me.

16 I would like to present this statement to the witness. It's the

17 statement given to the Office of the Prosecutor on 30th of August, 1998.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Just show it to the witness so.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The witness said that

21 he had owned or possessed the weapon until "17 hours," and not until the

22 "17th of April." Page 59, line 4 of the transcript.

23 A. Yes. It states here my name, my surname, date of birth, the year

24 of birth, and the place of birth.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 4415

1 Q. And you see that it says here as the date of the interview as the

2 30th of August, 1998.

3 A. Yes, that's what it says, the 30th of August, 1998.

4 Q. Could you please look at the last page? There is a confirmation

5 of your signature there, isn't there?

6 A. Yes. It says here, "Witness acknowledgement."

7 Q. Thank you. This is one of the statements.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry. I was directed there is a problem with --

9 please bear with me, Your Honours.

10 Q. [Interpretation] We have a problem. We will go back to your

11 statement. A little while ago when I asked you about the weapon, the gun,

12 you said that you had it in your possession for a total of 17 hours; is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes, for about 17 hours. That's right.

15 Q. From the moment you took it until the moment you gave it back; is

16 that right?

17 A. As far as I know. The municipality of Srpski Samac has better

18 information. It is in possession of the proper documents, so that they

19 will tell me, and probably, with their consent, we will arrive at the

20 exact time.

21 Q. I only asked you this so that we could clear up something in the

22 transcript, because something else was written in the transcript. Thank

23 you.

24 This is your statement, isn't it?

25 A. I haven't read it, but I hope it is my statement.

Page 4416

1 Q. Would you please look at it.

2 A. I'm not checking, but I will just see if it is really my

3 statement.

4 Yes, sir, Mr. Slobodan Zecevic, this is my statement.

5 Q. Thank you. A little while ago you said that you spoke with the

6 Prosecutors on several occasions.

7 A. Yes, on several occasions. Whether it's called "the Prosecutor"

8 or "the Prosecution," I don't know, but it does say here "The

9 International Criminal Tribunal for the Prosecution of persons responsible

10 for serious violations of international law committed in the territory of

11 the former Yugoslavia since 1991."

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting, but I

13 just -- I'm a little unclear if the witness and Mr. Zecevic are talking

14 about investigators or prosecutors, meaning lawyers from the --

15 MR. ZECEVIC: The investigators, of course.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful. I wasn't clear about that. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Just to clarify something: You spoke with the investigators from

21 the Prosecutor's office? Did you speak with them?

22 A. I couldn't tell you for sure. I had contacts with many people

23 after the war.

24 Q. But this is the only official statement that you gave?

25 A. Sir, I gave many statements, in the press, in the media, and also

Page 4417

1 these statements. I gave a statement as soon as I was released from the

2 transporter of the UN on the 4th of October, 1992. Who they were, whether

3 they were investigators or whether they were fellow citizens over there of

4 my Sarajevo at that time, I really wouldn't be able to tell you.

5 Q. Thank you. Would you kindly turn to page 4.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I wonder if Mr. Zecevic could tell us where in the

7 English it is so that I could follow this portion of the evidence.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: It is --

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Unfortunately, they're not numbered, but --

10 MR. ZECEVIC: It is the page number 3.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: It's the fourth paragraph.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone, Counsel.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. It's the page number 3, fourth

15 paragraph.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, would you be kind enough to read the fourth

17 paragraph of this statement. It begins: "At 9.00 a.m. of the same

18 morning..."

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Please read it slowly.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Could you please read it out loud.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. That's what I wanted to clarify with you.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Would you please read it out loud.

25 A. Me?

Page 4418

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Yes. I apologise. I didn't understand that I was supposed to

3 read it out loud.

4 "At 9.00 a.m. the same morning, I heard Ibrahim Salkic speaking

5 from a megaphone. From the megaphone, he asked all of those who were

6 given arms at the TO to hand those weapons over to the Serbs and thus

7 avoid further problems. I didn't know if he was captured at that time.

8 He was one of the men who armed us at the TO. I surrendered my rifle to

9 one member of the Serb paramilitary."

10 If that is the passage that you meant.

11 Q. Yes, that is exactly the one that I meant. You indicated here

12 that Ibrahim Salkic was one of the persons who gave you weapons at the TO;

13 is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Yesterday, in response to the Prosecutor's question, you said that

16 you did not remember who armed you.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Does that mean that now you remembered, now that you have read

19 this statement, and is it true what you stated in 1998?

20 A. What I stated in 1998 is true. And I would also like to say

21 something else. I believe that everything that I saw and heard is not

22 possible for me to express. I would need maybe three months for somebody

23 to listen to me, and even then I wouldn't be able to tell everything.

24 I think that there were five or six people there whose names I

25 didn't know. I'm not very good with names. I'm suffering some

Page 4419

1 consequences. I still can see quite far, and I hear very well. If

2 necessary, I will explain how this came about. There were several people

3 of Serbian nationality who were present when the weapons were being

4 issued. One of them was called Durmusic. His father's name is Janko. He

5 worked at the TO. The second one wasn't there. He was the commander of

6 the TO. His name was Milos Bogdanovic. He's of Serb ethnicity, from the

7 village of Skarici. He's not among the living any more. I wish he was,

8 so that he could confirm that he was the commander.

9 If you wanted me to tell you why I received the weapons from him,

10 I thought that this was a multi-ethnic army; that the commander, the

11 Serb -- was a Serb; that the second person who was issuing the weapons was

12 a Serb; that the other man, Mato, who worked at Velepromet, was a Croat;

13 [redacted] I was

14 expecting this to be a multi-ethnic army and that we would be defending

15 the town from the enemies, who would disrupt the life together in Bosanski

16 Samac. However, this is something that I was disappointed about.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. So on the 16th, you didn't know that the

18 commander of the TO, the gentleman you mentioned just now, the Croat Mato,

19 and Marko Bozanic -- Bozanovic - I apologise - and Alija Fitozovic, this

20 is something that you didn't know on the 16th?

21 A. No, I didn't know that they were the commanders. As far as I was

22 concerned, on the 16th, the commander was Milos Bogdanovic.

23 Q. Thank you. During your examination-in-chief, you stated that on

24 the night of the 17th of April, you left your house, with your rifle, and

25 went to the centre of town.

Page 4420

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. "The centre" is a sort of general term. Could you give us a

3 little more detail?

4 A. The centre of town is where the green market is.

5 Q. This is near the park; is that right?

6 A. Everything is close in Samac. I don't know exactly what you

7 mean. Perhaps some 50 metres away as the crow flies.

8 Q. From the park?

9 A. From the park.

10 Q. During your testimony, you said that while you were standing there

11 at that place with other people, the firing, the shooting, was getting

12 closer to you; is that right?

13 A. Yes, that is what I said.

14 Q. On that same page, you said the following in response to the

15 Prosecutor's question:

16 [In English] "Did you or any of the other men fire any shots in

17 anger?"

18 [Interpretation] Your answer was:

19 [In English] "No. There was no firing out of anger or any kind of

20 rage, and there was no shooting between the warring factions."

21 [Interpretation] My question is: If the shooting was getting

22 closer to you and you weren't shooting, who was actually shooting?

23 A. Unfortunately, my fellow citizens, who happened to be at the

24 entrance to the town. Many of them are no longer alive.

25 Q. Thank you. So this means that there was shooting between the

Page 4421

1 warring sides; isn't that right?

2 A. Yes. That is what I said, that there was shooting.

3 Q. Thank you. Sir, could you please tell me: You were a member of

4 the SDA; isn't that right?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Were you a member of the party military unit of the SDA?

7 A. No, I wasn't a member of the party military unit of the SDA, until

8 the 17th of April.

9 Q. Were you a commander of the logistics or the supply squad of that

10 unit?

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the witness's

12 answer.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Could you please repeat your answer.

15 A. This is the first time that I heard about that, at the trial in

16 the spring of 1993, at the court in Bijeljina.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: May I have the usher --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: It's the number 2 document. Would you please mark

20 it for identification purposes. It's the -- [No interpretation]

21 JUDGE MUMBA: What? Which document?

22 MR. ZECEVIC: I don't know in English. That's why that's the name

23 of the document. Supply unit. Supply unit, yes. I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: What number is it?

25 THE REGISTRAR: The ID number will be D24/2 ter, identification

Page 4422

1 number.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I'm a bit tired.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Can I just see the document briefly so that I can

4 clarify it's the same one?

5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Would you please look at this document.

7 A. Yes, certainly, with pleasure. Yes. This is a document where

8 there are the names and surnames of my fellow citizens.

9 Q. Is your name at the beginning of the document under the item

10 "Commander"?

11 A. Yes, that's right. [redacted]. This is my

12 phone number. Had you asked me, I wouldn't have known it off by heart,

13 but now I remember. This is the phone number that was never returned to

14 me.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: I just --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Your microphone.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I asked very properly. I said: "Is it

19 your name which appears as a commander on the top of that? Just answer

20 yes or no." And the witness --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have that problem usually.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, but I mean, I really didn't anticipate

23 that the witness will read the document.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Normally that happens, because of the flow of the

25 evidence --

Page 4423

1 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I'm truly sorry, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: That will be redacted.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, of course.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: And depending on the area of cross-examination,

5 maybe --

6 MR. ZECEVIC: No. I'm not -- I'm not -- this was just -- nothing

7 else.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: One of -- okay. It's not necessary for private

9 session.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no. It's not necessary that we go into private

11 session.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. The name will be redacted.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Could you please tell me: Have you ever seen this document

15 before?

16 A. Never, before the 17th of April, 1992.

17 Q. Did you see it at the military court in Bijeljina?

18 A. They didn't show it to me. However, in the material, I was

19 charged as being the commander of the supply squad.

20 Q. Does it state at the very beginning of this document "supply

21 squad"?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You said that other people who are on this list are your fellow

24 citizens and that you know them.

25 A. Yes.

Page 4424

1 Q. Do you know, if you know, whether anyone else from this list was

2 arrested?

3 A. [redacted].

4 Q. I don't know either, believe me. Only if you know.

5 A. Yes, I do know most of my fellow citizens.

6 Q. Do you know if any one of them was arrested? This is what I'm

7 asking you.

8 A. Yes, I do. He was arrested together with me.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Please just read -- don't read the names,

13 please. Just read the number.

14 A. Number 2 was with me for a long time, if we're thinking of the

15 same person. Number 6 was with me for a long time. Number 8 was with me

16 for a long time, and his father, who was born in 1911.

17 I know the others, but I know them by name. So I'm afraid that I

18 would make a mistake.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Mr. Usher.

21 Your Honours, thank you. I have finished my cross-examination.

22 [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: I think at this stage we have a few matters to

24 discuss before the other counsels can start cross-examination which, from

25 the time, may not finish today. So the cross-examination will continue on

Page 4425

1 Monday, from 0930 hours. And can the witness be led out of the courtroom,

2 please.

3 [Witness stood down]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: We have to vacate the courtroom by 1.00 so that the

5 equipment can be harnessed in for the meeting in the gallery this

6 afternoon.

7 I just have one item for the Prosecution which the Trial Chamber

8 would like clarification on during the latter stages of your case with

9 witnesses. The area is rather grey. Maybe it's too early in the

10 Prosecution case. This is the issue of forced labour.

11 From the evidence received so far and from the cross-examination,

12 one can see that it's a very grey area. There were people who had

13 assignments before the war, who had been in the military before, who had

14 been informed that, "At any time when war is declared, you report to

15 such-and-such a place for your work obligations during the war period."

16 There were people who were not assigned like that, who were not --

17 who had not been in the military, either due to age or whatever reasons,

18 but who were assigned work obligations when the war started in 1992.

19 From some of the lists shown to the witnesses, there are names of

20 professional people like doctors, for instance, health workers, for

21 instance.

22 Now, we have to clarify whether some of the professional people

23 who had to work during wartime, after the war started in 1992, were

24 working in the same institutions where they were working and were getting

25 the same salaries that they were getting before the war but who were

Page 4426

1 ordered never to leave, or whether the case was that even those who

2 continued within their professions in the same institutions were not

3 paid. And the other issue is whether or not in any of those categories of

4 people who were made to work during the war, were they paid or not or was

5 it a question of low wages for the labour.

6 So these matters have to be clarified as you proceed with your

7 witnesses, because it's quite a grey area to be able to determine what

8 amounts to forced labour under the circumstances of this case.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: The question of salaries and the question of --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: The question of salaries and the question of

12 professionals working in places like the hospital and so on.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because we have the evidence that some lists

14 were shown to witnesses that did say that these were doctors. They appear

15 to have continued to work as doctors, as medical doctors during the --

16 after the war started, and is the question whether they were ordered never

17 to leave their places of work, for instance, to leave Bosanski Samac

18 altogether, to resign like any employee would do, and whether or not they

19 continued receiving the same salaries or it was low wages or no salaries

20 at all.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: For instance, this witness still on the stand did

23 say -- he did explain where he was working before the war. He did say he

24 was supposed -- it was something like he was supposed to go back to work

25 at that station after the war started, but he explained.

Page 4427

1 So even though he was given other assignments, did the company

2 where he was supposed to continue working, where he had been working

3 before, pay anything to him, recognising the work that he was assigned to

4 do after the war started.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: These areas need to be clarified during the further

7 evidence that may be eliciting from your witnesses, because in other

8 trials, it is quite a grey area as to what amounts to forced labour --

9 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: -- when an indictment is drawn the way this one is

11 drawn.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Sure.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand the concerns --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: -- and I will make sure that the witnesses -- that

17 we proof the witnesses on these issues and we get every bit of evidence

18 that might be useful to the Chamber in that respect.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Just thinking off the top of my head, one of the

21 witnesses that we deleted from our list was, in fact, a doctor who worked

22 in Bosanski Samac. May I just very briefly confer with my colleague?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

24 [Prosecution counsel confer]

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you.

Page 4428

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You'll deal with that.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll deal with the issue that you have raised.

3 Thank you. Yes.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber was informed that Mr. Pantelic

5 wanted to raise some issues.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours. Very briefly. During these

7 proceedings, I think that we established -- we have a well-established

8 practice about this swapping the place of our defendants.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: The accused, yes.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yesterday, the court officer -- well, court

11 policeman here was in charge, like a superior to the unit of yesterday --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MR. PANTELIC: -- by his own initiative made another position of

14 the defendants which might be a problem for the future. So the issue is

15 whether we are following your instruction here or instruction of this

16 particular person.

17 If -- the bottom line is if the interference in this situation

18 will occur in future, then we shall be in situation to lose and not to

19 know what the previous position was, because my understanding was that for

20 each particular witness, we have the same position of the defendants, and

21 then for the next witness, the next position.

22 If it will be -- changes during the examination of one witness,

23 then it will -- we shall be bring into the situation where we shall not

24 follow the standards.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. If --

Page 4429

1 MR. PANTELIC: I mean, I'm very sorry. I said to my learned

2 colleague here not to raise this to the Trial Chamber, but they told me --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The position was that, and the position is

4 still that -- for each witness, before a new witness comes --

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: -- the defendants change positions.

7 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right?

9 MR. PANTELIC: And if we have two days of examination --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: They retain those positions.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. It's illogical to change for the --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. They retain the same positions until we

13 finish -- before the next witness comes, they again vary their positions,

14 retain those positions and up to the end of the witness.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely. That was my understanding.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: There's no problem with that.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you so much. I hope Ms. Registrar will

18 inform, although I have very nice relations with all the officers, and

19 they are very kind and very professional, still but, you know, there are

20 some persons who think that my --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Another short issue, Madam President, is that on

23 several occasions I raised that issue that we need as soon as possible the

24 transcript from yesterday's session for today during our cross. So I

25 kindly ask and beg my dear friends from the Registry to -- I know that

Page 4430

1 they are overloaded, but to do the best specifically for this period, when

2 we have a cross, to obtain these transcripts. Because today, for example,

3 we didn't get --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yesterday's --

5 MR. PANTELIC: From yesterday, yes.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

7 MR. PANTELIC: And it's a little bit hard to go through this

8 working draft version. So I hope that it will be done.

9 And also, I hope that our learned friends from Prosecution will

10 inform us about the list of coming witnesses for next week so that we can

11 have an idea how many witnesses we have and then if we can be informed

12 according to our previous practice, of course. Thank you so much.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I wanted to assure Mr. Zecevic and Mr. Milan

14 Simic and the other defendant, Mr. Tadic, that the Trial Chamber is

15 following up the issues raised for -- they are aware of the -- in the

16 cells within this building.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I didn't follow you, Your

18 Honours.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The matters you raised regarding the heating system

20 and the chair for Mr. Tadic as well.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is following that up.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you so much. I'm sorry, I didn't follow Your

24 Honours.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would also like to thank you, Your

Page 4431

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Page 4432

1 Honours. I would just like to thank you, thank you for the efforts made

2 by the Trial Chamber to have this resolved as soon as possible.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: You're welcome.

4 We shall adjourn now until Monday, 0930 hours.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.05 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day

7 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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