Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4667

1 Wednesday, 28 November 2001

2 [Private session]

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12 [Closed session]

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1 [redacted]

2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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Page 4745

1 --- On resuming at 3.31 p.m.

2 [Private session]

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Page 4766

1 [redacted]

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8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE MUMBA: We are now in open session, so you may proceed.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Please answer my questions with "yes," "no," "I don't know," or "I

12 don't remember," if possible, so that we can complete the

13 cross-examination in as brief a time period as possible.

14 In your testimony, you mentioned some events, [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 at that time, other acts of sabotage took place?

19 A. Yes. I think I said.

20 Q. Very well. You are aware of the fact that throughout 1991 and

21 1992, on several occasions the power lines were cut, the pylons were

22 overturned?

23 A. Yes.

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4767

1 was blown up?

2 A. I don't know the date, but I know that it happened.

3 Q. You probably remember that on the 9th of December, 1992, a

4 warehouse of rockets used to prevent hail in Hranaprodukt was also blown

5 up?

6 A. No, I don't know about that.

7 Q. Would you please wait for the question to be interpreted, please.

8 You don't have to reply immediately.

9 You are aware of the fact that on the 27th of January, 1992, on an

10 important Serbian Orthodox holiday, St. Sava's Day, a chapel on the

11 Serbian Orthodox cemetery in Bosanski Samac was blown up?

12 A. I'm not aware of the holiday, but I do know there was an incident.

13 Q. Can we agree that on the 14th of February, 1992, a grenade

14 exploded in the Valentino Cafe?

15 A. Yes, I know that very well.

16 Q. Can you confirm the fact that, on that occasion, two young men of

17 Muslim ethnicity were killed and a girl of Serb ethnicity was seriously

18 injured?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Very well. I believe you know that the bridge over the river

21 Sava, connecting Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Republic of Croatia, was

22 blown up twice?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. I also believe you will remember the barricades that

25 were erected on the roads leading into Bosanski Samac by armed members of

Page 4768

1 the political party SDA on the 23rd of March, 1992, in the early morning

2 hours.

3 A. Yes. It was Saturday, and I condemned this, but I have nothing to

4 do with it; I only know about it.

5 Q. I am not trying to link you to this.

6 A. Well, then you don't have to ask me about those things.

7 Q. Do you remember that a list was published, or rather, that a

8 pamphlet was issued containing the names of Muslims who were members of

9 the 4th Detachment of the JNA, with insulting names?

10 A. No, Boro. I'm a working woman.

11 Q. Just say, "No." Do you remember that on the 3rd of April, 1992,

12 there was an armed attack on Mersad Mesic, Nizama Ramusovic and Danilo

13 Vitomir in front of the Mal Cafe in Bosanski Samac?

14 A. Of course, but I don't know any details about it. I know that it

15 happened. I don't know any details.

16 Q. Can we agree - and I think you are aware of the fact - that the

17 chief of the police at the time in Bosanski Samac was Vinko Dragicevic, a

18 Croat from Samac?

19 A. Yes, because when there was a bombing, it was then that I learnt

20 that Dragicevic was ...

21 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the chief of the crime detections

22 unit was Mr. -- of crime investigation was Mr. Dragan Lukac, also a Croat

23 by ethnicity?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you agree if I say that none of these cases, including your

Page 4769

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Page 4770

1 case, were solved by the police in Bosanski Samac?

2 A. No, which is why I hired a private detective [as interpreted].

3 Q. I will repeat my question, or maybe I misunderstood you. Is your

4 answer yes?

5 A. Yes. Yes. That's why I hired a private detective.

6 Q. Can we agree that you did not trust the ability of the police in

7 Bosanski Samac?

8 A. It's not that I didn't trust them. No, no, no. I simply wanted

9 to speed things up.

10 Q. It was probably for this reason that you decided to hire a private

11 detective agency from Tuzla to investigate your case.

12 A. I said I wanted to speed up the resolution of my case.

13 Q. Can you tell me when you hired the private detective agency

14 [redacted]

15 A. Two days later. [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 Q. I'm just asking you when you hired him, nothing more. When you

19 and your husband and Mr. Tihic met [redacted] in

20 Modrica, when was that?

21 A. You mean when?

22 Q. Yes, when?

23 A. Well, I understand your question, yes. [redacted]

24 [redacted]. I rang him up and we met immediately after that. It

25 was after that that we met.

Page 4771

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Fadil Topcagic is a Muslim, is he not?

5 A. Yes. I don't hold anything against anyone because of their

6 ethnicity.

7 Q. Igor Rukavina is from a mixed marriage?

8 A. Yes, Boro.

9 Q. He's a Croat? [as interpreted]

10 A. Yes. His mother is a Muslim.

11 Q. Thank you. That was my next question.

12 A. It doesn't mean anything to me.

13 Q. Your detective, [redacted] --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: There is a -- page 90/11. The question was: "His

16 father is a Croat, isn't it?" And the transcript doesn't say so. 90, row

17 11.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. Yes. So counsel can ask the question

19 again.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You understood what the problem was. The father of Igor Rukavina,

22 is he a Croat by ethnicity?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This detective, [redacted], has he ever filed a criminal

25 report or charges against Fadil Topcagic and Igor Rukavina?

Page 4772

1 A. No.

2 Q. You and your husband, did you file a criminal report to the police

3 or a lawsuit before a court against Igor Rukavina and Fadil Topcagic?

4 A. No, because it was ten days before the war.

5 Q. And can we agree that a criminal report and a lawsuit were not

6 filed [redacted] you to the police or the court

7 respectively because you had no firm evidence that [redacted]

8 [redacted]?

9 A. No. [redacted] said that he needs to put it on paper and file

10 it so it was not a question of lack of firm evidence, it was a question of

11 time because at the same time he was supposed to prepare a report [redacted]

12 [redacted] and to investigate that too.

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 A. No.

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you know them to be members of the 4th Detachment?

23 A. I didn't know about Igor. I knew about Fadil Topcagic.

24 Q. Ma'am, you have never seen a list of members of the 4th

25 Detachment, have you?

Page 4773

1 A. I saw the way Fadil acted and not only I saw it but the entire

2 population.

3 Q. Please, I asked you very clearly: Have you ever seen a list of

4 the members of the 4th Detachment?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Have you ever seen the 4th Detachment of the JNA lined up?

7 A. No, I've never seen any unit.

8 Q. And could we agree on the fact that members of the 4th Detachment

9 of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army, until the conflict broke out in Samac, did

10 not go around town in their military clothing or uniforms?

11 A. I don't know all the members so I can't say, but I did see

12 uniformed persons and checkpoints and at the rally which you attended too,

13 and they were around. I don't know whether they were the 4th Detachment

14 or not.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you allow the witness to complete the

16 answer and you allow the interpretation to be completed. When you speak

17 the same language, you sometimes forget you are in court and you start

18 conversing with each other.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I apologise for having interrupting you. Please go on.

21 A. It's true I never saw a single unit lined up and I don't know much

22 about military things, but I know what a line-up is. I've never seen any

23 of them, including the 4th Detachment. But when we had this rally for

24 togetherness, which you attended too, sir, we came there and we saw with

25 our own eyes that people were already there wearing those Serbian signs,

Page 4774

1 and we knew that they could only come from Tuzla and places like that. I

2 don't know whether these people were from the 4th Detachment or some other

3 formation.

4 If I were a member of the 4th Detachment myself, I could tell you

5 even today whether you were in it too. I only know for myself, I,

6 personally, was never a member of any formation.

7 Q. And are you aware of the fact that Igor Rukavina was a member of

8 the SDA?

9 A. I certainly did. [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]. I know that very well.

12 I really have to clarify one point, and please allow me to do so.

13 [redacted]

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25 Q. Can we agree that your information to the effect that [redacted]

Page 4775

1 Rukavina and Fadil Topcagic were members of the 4th Detachment of the

2 Yugoslav Peoples' Army [redacted]

3 [redacted]?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Can we agree that you heard about the formation of the 4th

6 Detachment of the JNA through the media?

7 A. It was well under way, this establishment of the 4th Detachment,

8 when I heard about it. After this private conversation I had with

9 Mr. Simo Zaric about the 4th Detachment, and on that occasion, he gave me

10 a very good explanation of what it was. And only after that I heard on

11 Radio Bosanski Samac that -- it was some kind of broadcast like a

12 roundtable where Simo Zaric and some other people were available to answer

13 any questions of the listeners. And that was the first time I heard on

14 one of the mass media. I don't know exactly how many days, it was five or

15 ten days after this conversation I had with Simo Zaric. You're asking too

16 much. It's -- it was a long time ago.

17 Q. Could we agree on the fact that the 4th Detachment was established

18 in the beginning of 1992?

19 A. I can't tell you precisely because I don't know. I really don't

20 know whether it was in 1991 or 1992.

21 Q. Did you maybe listen to a speech made by the commander of the 4th

22 Detachment, Radovan Antic, and the assistant for security and

23 intelligence, morale and information, Simo Zaric, on Radio Samac about the

24 objectives and tasks of the 4th Detachment of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army?

25 A. I have just told you that I was listening to the radio when this

Page 4776

1 roundtable programme was on or whatever it was called. I heard Simo Zaric

2 speaking. I didn't hear Radovan Antic.

3 Q. Were you aware of the fact, and can we agree that the 4th

4 Detachment of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army was established only for the

5 territory of the town of Samac?

6 A. Yes, that's what Mr. Simo Zaric told me in that conversation we

7 had. I have never seen any documents so I don't know. All I know is what

8 I heard from Mr. Simo Zaric, and I think I've already stated this in my

9 testimony.

10 Q. Can we agree that the formation of the 4th Detachment and its

11 existence in the town of Samac were public in nature?

12 A. Well, if it was public, then how can you ask me how I know that

13 Fadil Topcagic was a member of the 4th Detachment, or Igor Rukavina? If

14 it was a matter of public knowledge, then how can you ask how I know? You

15 are saying that it was public. As far as I'm concerned, that's the story

16 that made the rounds, but it was not public. There was a decree, and

17 young people were invited to join. That's what I know.

18 Q. Ma'am, would you please tell me, did you call Simo Zaric and ask

19 him to talk to you on the 9th of March, 1992?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That conversation took place one afternoon, that is, at 3.00 p.m.

22 in a cafe in Bosanski Samac.

23 A. Between 3.00 and 4.00 p.m., I think. It doesn't really matter.

24 Q. You asked Zaric to meet you with the intention of asking him to

25 help you and your family; isn't that right?

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Page 4778

1 A. No. I called Mr. Zaric so that I could talk to him [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]. And I

5 knew that the 4th Detachment, at least as the rumour had it, was attached

6 to the Yugoslav army, the JNA. I didn't only call Simo Zaric; I called

7 many other people from the JNA.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was informed that

9 there was something wrong with the transcript.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues]... [redacted]

11 [redacted].

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: And this is exactly not what the witness stated.

14 Maybe Mr. Pisarevic would clarify. [redacted]

15 [redacted]. It's not the same thing.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think Mr. Pisarevic can clear that with the

17 witness as to what she had said.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 A. The serial number - that's what I was told, because I didn't look

22 at it - I was told that it bore a JNA serial number. I know nothing about

23 dynamite, and you know this well.

24 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber who told you that?

25 A. The fire technicians and our own investigators from Samac. They

Page 4779

1 didn't tell just me; they showed everyone, all the onlookers, whoever was

2 interested. They told me the least.

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 A. [redacted] I talked on the phone that very day. We met several

7 times and discussed this subject. It is true that my last meeting [redacted]

8 [redacted]was when he said that things were being finalised and that he was

9 going to officially submit to our investigators and talk to them. He was

10 going to file something in written form. However, the war began, [redacted]

11 [redacted]. That was towards the end of March or the beginning

12 of April. He still had something to find out about [redacted].

13 [redacted].

14 Q. Ma'am, you said that this meeting took place in Modrica, where you

15 came with your husband and Mr. Tihic. You said that it took place after

16 the 9th of March, 1992.

17 A. Yes, and on that occasion he only talked to me about [redacted]

18 [redacted]. He only informed me about that. [redacted]

19 [redacted]. He told me that he

20 is on the right trail, that he's still investigating, and that he's soon

21 going to file charges against the people concerned.

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4780

1 [redacted] Shall I explain in more detail? He said that Fadil had

2 lost in a game of cards more than 100.000 Deutschmark in Garevac. That's

3 what I never said before.

4 Q. Please, please don't get too far away from the case. The Trial

5 Chamber is not interested in this, and we should not waste their precious

6 time or our own.

7 Please, can we agree that Simo Zaric told you then that neither

8 you or anyone else from Samac, regardless of their ethnicity, their

9 religion, or anything else, should leave Samac?

10 A. No. He never told me that anyone should leave Samac.

11 Q. So you agree with me, actually.

12 A. Yes. Yes. He never told me anything like that.

13 JUDGE SINGH: Can I just seek a clarification there from your

14 answer at line 22, that you were told even before [redacted]

15 [redacted]that Igor and Fadil were members of the 4th Detachment.

16 And what was the occasion for him telling you that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether it was

18 February. He had been working on my case for quite a while, for not less

19 than two and a half months, and he invited me at that time to Modrica. He

20 was working on another case. I don't know. He asked me whether it was

21 convenient. I said yes. [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]. And Hasan insisted, as I said, and invited

24 Mr. Sulejman Tihic along. So the four of us met up, and in front of

25 Sulejman Tihic, he said that it had come to his knowledge -- and he

Page 4781

1 explained through whom, through which detectives, and he even mentioned

2 one teacher, without naming him. [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]. He said, "You were wrong, ma'am. You

5 thought this was not about politics. It is a political incident, after

6 all. Do you know this Fadil and Igor?" I said, "I know them. They're my

7 fellow citizens." And he said, "They are involved in dirty business.

8 They are members of the 4th Detachment."

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

10 MR. WEINER: Yes. There's a matter in the transcript that's not

11 clear. The issue was: "Do we agree that Simo Zaric told you then that

12 neither you nor anyone else should leave Samac?" And "No, he never told

13 me that anyone should leave." Is she saying that he never said that, or

14 he specifically said, "No one of non-Serb ethnicity should leave"? It's

15 not clear. They're both agreeing, and it's not clear what they're

16 agreeing to and what's being said there. It's kind of a double negative.

17 If they could just clarify that for the record. Is it that he never

18 specifically said those words that nobody should leave Samac, or he didn't

19 order anyone to leave Samac? I'm not sure what the statement is there.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. I'm sure Mr. Pisarevic has understood

21 what Mr. Weiner wishes to have clarified.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Ma'am, you have heard about the problem we have, so I'll ask this

24 again. On that occasion, the 9th of March, 1992, when you were meeting

25 with Mr. Simo Zaric in this pizzeria called Rendezvous, did Mr. Simo Zaric

Page 4782

1 tell you that no one, whatever their ethnicity, should leave Samac,

2 including you and your family?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I think we've clarified this, have

5 we?

6 MR. WEINER: Yes. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. And can we rise? It's almost 1700.

8 We'll continue tomorrow at 0930 hours.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.59 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of

11 November 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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