Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4783

1 Thursday, 29 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.50 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination is continuing, Mr. Pisarevic.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS K [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic: [Continued]

15 Q. Good morning, Your Honours.

16 Good morning, Witness K. I should like to get a

17 clarification of one thing that you mentioned, namely, that at that round

18 table, the programme broadcast over Radio Samac, a citizen nicknamed Ibela

19 took part; is that correct?

20 A. Yes. I recognised his voice.

21 Q. Can we agree that Ibela is in fact Ibrahim Salkic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And are you aware of the fact that Mr Ibrahim Salkic --

24 A. I have some sort of interference. I can't hear Mr. Boro.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we check the equipment? Maybe the volume or

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Page 4785

1 something.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have the same problem as before,

3 Your Honours. We can now switch to channel 6, but if we have to use the

4 interpretation, then we'll have a problem. Yesterday, we were able to see

5 the witness and the interpretation on the same channel, which is not the

6 case today.

7 THE REGISTRAR: I was just informed by the technical people that

8 they have to put their channel on channel 7. If they put it on channel 7,

9 they are supposed to hear it.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we try? Can counsel ask an innocent

11 question for testing purposes?

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mrs. K, would you be so kind as to count to 5?

14 A. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Is the witness able to hear counsel?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if the counsel would say

17 something, I could check.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mrs. K, can you hear me?

20 A. Yes, I can hear you now.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. And the other parties?

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, it appears that our clients are

23 receiving the English translation on the channel 7.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: And yesterday it was channel 6 for B/C/S? Okay.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let us try again.

Page 4786

1 Q. First of all, can you hear me?

2 A. I can hear you very well. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: So it's all right now. All right. The

4 cross-examination can continue.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Mr. Ibrahim Salkic was a member of

7 the Party of Democratic Action?

8 A. No, since I didn't belong to it myself.

9 Q. We've discussed yesterday your meeting with Mr. Zaric. Can we

10 agree that on that occasion Mr. Zaric said to you that he was going to do

11 whatever is in his power to help you and your family somehow?

12 A. I have already said that in my testimony. Yes.

13 Q. On that occasion, Zaric didn't ask you whether you belonged to any

14 political party?

15 A. He knew. He couldn't ask me. I really don't remember, sir,

16 whether he specifically asked me whether I belonged to a party or not. He

17 knew it very well, because I had told him then to leave me, my family, and

18 my property alone, that I didn't belong to any party.

19 Q. Can we agree that on that occasion Mr. Zaric did not ask you

20 whether your husband was a member of the SDA?

21 A. He didn't, but I asked him why he did not include my son in the

22 4th Detachment. He told me, "Because you have only one." And I told him

23 that that's not true. He didn't do that because my husband was a member

24 of the SDA.

25 Q. Can we agree that on that occasion Mr. Zaric did not ask you why

Page 4787

1 your husband and your son had not responded to the mobilisation call-up

2 proclaimed by the Presidency of the SFRY on the 31st of December, 1991?

3 A. That's not true. My husband did respond, and he got a war

4 assignment in Derventa. He -- he didn't ask me, and my son did respond.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It's not the husband;

6 it's the son.

7 A. My son did respond.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, could we have some break between

10 question, answer, question? While she is giving -- while we are hearing

11 her answer, he's asking the second question and we have no opportunity to

12 object if there's a problem.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel and the witness, please do pause and allow

16 the interpreters to complete. In most cases -- I think in all languages,

17 it's one person who interprets the answer -- the question and then the

18 answer, so you have to pause to allow for the complete -- the completion

19 of the work of the interpreters.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, another -- I'm sorry. Another thing

21 is that the transcript doesn't say -- it says here, on page 4, line 4,

22 "That's not true. My husband did respond." And actually, the witness

23 said, "My son did respond."

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. If you look -- yes. The interpreter corrected

25 that. It's not the husband; it's the son.

Page 4788

1 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm so sorry.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Part of the problem is the overlapping, I

3 think.

4 Yes, you can proceed, Counsel.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Can we agree that Simo Zaric did not differentiate between people

7 according to their ethnic, religious, or other background?

8 A. Before the war, I could agree that was true, but during the war,

9 he did.

10 Q. In your statement, you said that you attended the founding

11 assembly of the SDA as a guest of honour in Samac; is that correct?

12 A. Yes

13 JUDGE MUMBA: When you refer to a statement, counsel, please

14 always direct us to which statement, whether it was the one obtained

15 before the trial or whether it's the testimony in Court. You should be

16 clear.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] We shall clarify that. Thank you

18 very much.

19 Q. You testified to that before this Court; is that correct?

20 A. I can't remember. If you asked me, I probably answered. I said

21 yes.

22 Q. Can we agree that the SDA was a national and religious party of

23 the Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

24 A. Certainly, just as the SDS and the HDZ.

25 Q. This fact that it was a national and religious party of the

Page 4789

1 Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina, was that the reason why you did not

2 become a member?

3 A. I tried to join a party, any sort of party, but my town of

4 Bosanski Samac, probably because I was so capable, never gave me the

5 opportunity to become a member of the then ruling party, the Communist

6 Party, so I tried to join a mononational party later, since I couldn't

7 enter the Communist Party. But I found out that I had no sympathy for

8 either of the three of them.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Madam President. I believe that the witness

11 said, "I hate them all." That was the last part of her answer. For the

12 clarification, maybe my colleague can clarify that.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. --

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Sorry, Your Honours. There is also one are issue.

15 Page 5, line 13. It is obvious that this is not the answer. It says, "He

16 why" or something like that, and we heard "yes" as an answer.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just have the question asked again.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, I think on the line 13, rather

19 strange he/why statement, you then did pose the question again and the

20 witness did answer. You said, on line 20, "You testified to that before

21 this Court; is that correct?" The witness answered, "I can't remember.

22 If you asked me, I probably answered. I said yes." So that's clarified.

23 It's only the other issue that was raised.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the next question, the one Mr.

25 Pantelic was pointing out that the -- the last part of the answer was not

Page 4790

1 -- is not in the transcript.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You said, and it wasn't recorded, what kind of attitude you had

4 towards national parties.

5 A. I can't accept them, because I come from a family which is mixed

6 to such an extent that we don't know what kind of mixture it is, so we

7 cannot stomach national parties.

8 Q. Will you please confirm that a minute ago you said you hated them?

9 A. For all they brought upon us, I do hate them, I mean the national

10 parties.

11 Q. Your husband was issued with a weapon on the 16th of April, 1992

12 in the building of the command of the Territorial Defence in Bosanski

13 Samac?

14 A. You had the opportunity to ask him that.

15 Q. Do you know that?

16 A. Yes, but I've told you already, you could have asked him.

17 Q. Are you aware of the fact that your husband was on the list of

18 self-organised citizens of the town of Bosanski Samac?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Are you aware that such a list existed?

21 A. That list was drawn up during the war, and it was because of such

22 lists that were published in the bulletin of the Serbian Samac, we got

23 into a lot of trouble, because if something is on the list and is not

24 supported by a formal decision which someone had received, I don't accept

25 any such list which makes the rounds, and I claim that all the lists drawn

Page 4791

1 up before the 17th were fabricated, and fabricated by your client, Mr.

2 Simo Zaric, because for a month prior to the events, such lists were all

3 the talk on the radio, only creating hatred among the citizenry.

4 Q. Are you aware that on the grounds of possessing a weapon, your

5 husband was detained in the police station of Bosanski Samac?

6 A. Possibly, but people, Muslims and Croats, did not belong to a

7 single national party. They did not possess weapons, and they were still

8 detained. And it was that that we wondered about: Why were people being

9 arrested and detained? Mr. Josip Bosolic [phoen] did not belong to any

10 party, and he didn't have a weapon, and he paid with his life. A group of

11 people was detained because of what they owned, because of the money that

12 we had to pay to paramilitary units, and I can support that claim, because

13 Mr. Bozo Stanisic had come to me and asked 5.000 Deutschmark as ransom,

14 when five of my fellow citizens had died in the church, and he wanted this

15 money as ransom for my brother-in-law's head.

16 Q. Can we agree that as far as members of the 4th Detachment were

17 concerned, you saw them for the first time on the 18th of April, 1992,

18 when they came to your house in the mission of collecting weapons?

19 A. Excuse me, Mr. Boro. I saw uniformed people even before the 17th

20 of April. You remember that rally we had for the togetherness of

21 Yugoslavia, coexistence in Samac. Among other people, I saw the gentleman

22 who worked in the Mebos company, nicknamed Sajkaca. Whether they

23 belonged, he and the others, to the 4th Detachment or some other probably

24 paramilitary formation or a JNA formation, I don't know. I saw the same

25 kind of uniformed people at checkpoints when entering from Tuzla into

Page 4792

1 Samac, at least on two occasions, and on one occasion, at Tisina, near the

2 bridge, which means that I had no opportunity to see any lists, because

3 the 4th Detachment had not been established publicly, naming the members

4 and so on. The 4th Detachment was formed in a conspiracy, in secret.

5 And you know this very well yourself.

6 Q. Well, let's put a time frame on it. We are now talking about the

7 time period from the 17th of April, 1992, which means not prior to the

8 17th April, but only -- we are concerned with what happened after the 17th

9 of April and in the time frame after that.

10 A. Not on the 17th, and even not today, I still do not know all of

11 the people who were members of the 4th Detachment.

12 Q. Thank you. You have stated that you listened to Radio Samac

13 broadcast, which from then on was something called Serbian Samac.

14 A. Yes, and you were listening to the same broadcast, sir.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness K, you are answering questions put to you by

16 counsel in his capacity as counsel and as officer of the Court. You are

17 not conversing with him. So please be -- avoid being rude to counsel.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but since we are

19 fellow citizens, I'm sure that I will not have this attitude when asked by

20 a different counsel. But since this gentleman and I come from the same

21 city, then my reaction is probably -- should not come as a surprise.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Well, yes. I'm not putting these questions to you because of

24 myself; I'm putting these questions in order to establish the truth.

25 A. Well, I just get carried away, as if you and I were on an informal

Page 4793

1 function.

2 Q. Well, can we agree that the then director and editor of the radio

3 of Serbian Samac was Vaso Antic?

4 A. I don't know about that. It is possible.

5 Q. Can we then agree that the journalists at the Serbian Samac radio

6 were Ljubomir Cordasevic, Petar Andric, Radmilo Zigic, and some other

7 girls that worked there as secretaries?

8 A. Well, I do know the name of Ljubomir Cordasevic, I know Vaso

9 Andric, but other than those two girls, I don't know if you have in mind

10 Kosta's daughter, girl with the last name Lujic, then yes, I do know her.

11 I did follow those broadcasts.

12 Q. Can you confirm for me the fact that on the 17th and 18th of

13 April, 1992, Serbian Samac radio read a declaration, a proclamation of the

14 Crisis Staff?

15 A. Well, the proclamations were read, but whether those were

16 proclamations of the Crisis Staff or some other institution, I don't know.

17 It is probable that it was the Crisis Staff.

18 Q. Can you confirm the fact that these proclamations were mostly read

19 by the director and the editor of the radio station, Mr. Vaso Antic?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Are you in a position, are you able, to identify the individual

22 who read out those proclamations?

23 A. Those proclamations were very often read out by Mr. Simo Zaric.

24 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pisarevic, can I clarify the use of the constant

25 phrase by you, or phrases by you, "can you confirm," "do you agree" or

Page 4794

1 "can we agree." I'm not exactly clear what you mean whenever you say

2 "can we agree," and "can you confirm." Are these your client's

3 instructions, your own opinions, or what? I would have thought that if

4 it's your client's instructions, then you put to her what his instructions

5 are, and if you are unable to put anything on the basis of evidence which

6 your client can give later, then you suggest to her. A suggestion is the

7 natural corollary of certain events. So please use legal phraseology.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Q. Do you remember that on the 20th of April, 1992, on Radio Samac,

10 you heard a proclamation read out, proclamation by the commander of the

11 4th Detachment, of the JNA?

12 A. You mean Nikolic, the JNA detachment? I don't know a detachment

13 of that kind. I know the 4th -- not the JNA, just the 4th Detachment.

14 Q. Well, do you know about the fact that the commander of the 4th

15 Detachment of the JNA was Mr. Radovan Antic?

16 A. First of all, I cannot accept this 4th Detachment being called as

17 the 4th Detachment of the JNA. I know about the 4th Detachment, and I

18 know that Mr. Antic was also a member of that 4th Detachment. I don't

19 know what kind of a rank or a position he held in that detachment.

20 Q. During those days, in April of 1992, there were frequently power

21 outages in Bosanski Samac; isn't that true?

22 A. Yes. I have already stated so.

23 Q. Can you confirm the fact that Serbian Samac radio did not have

24 all-day broadcasts?

25 A. Well, the power would be there, and then it would go out, which

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Page 4796

1 means that whenever we had a power outage, we couldn't have a radio

2 broadcast.

3 Q. Can we agree that in that period of time, on the Serbian Samac

4 radio, a number of orders were broadcast concerning what the conduct of

5 citizens should be in a situation of that kind?

6 A. Well, of course. I've already stated so.

7 Q. And the call-up to enter names in the lists of Territorial

8 Defence, which was issued by the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska,

9 its office in Samac, was something that was also broadcast over Serbian

10 Samac radio?

11 A. Yes, and my husband responded to that call.

12 Q. The invitation to attend a meeting at the Buducnost company, which

13 was issued by the municipal staff of the TO, of the Serbian municipality

14 Samac, was also something broadcast over Radio Samac; isn't it so?

15 A. Yes, and this is why a lot of residents attended that meeting.

16 Q. Could you please tell us: Have you watched a special programme of

17 the Novi Sad television concerning the situation in Bosanski Samac?

18 A. I certainly have. We had a power outage once, and this programme

19 was re-broadcast.

20 Q. You probably remember that in addition to other participants in

21 that programme --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

23 MR. WEINER: Yes. For the record, could they state the name of

24 the programme so we know which particular programme they're referring to,

25 the name of the television show, please.

Page 4797

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, I'm sure you've heard Mr. Weiner's

2 requests.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] The programme was announced as a

4 special programme. The title of the programme was "Events in Bosanski

5 Samac." I'm not sure whether that was the working title of that

6 programme, the exact working title.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, is that sufficient?

8 MR. WEINER: Yes. Thank you very much.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Perhaps I should repeat my question.

11 A. Yes, please do.

12 Q. All right. You will agree that in that programme of the Novi Sad

13 radio television, in addition to other participants, Mr. Simo Zaric also

14 participated?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you remember that on that occasion, Mr. Zaric discussed the

17 situation in Bosanski Samac, illegal arming and mobilisation plans of the

18 SDS and HDZ?

19 A. Yes. He discussed those two plans, but not the third one.

20 Q. After that, have you had an occasion to see Simo Zaric participate

21 in any kind of TV programme?

22 A. I don't remember seeing him personally, but I did hear his voice

23 on the Novi Sad television when religious buildings were blown up in

24 Odzak.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: If I could ask the witness a question, Mr.

Page 4798

1 Pisarevic.

2 I'm just wondering, Witness, how you could -- if you could explain

3 how you didn't see him personally on the television but you heard his

4 voice on the Novi Sad television. If you could just clarify that, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not sure whether it was a

6 programme or it was just the news, and then perhaps during the news

7 broadcast, they don't necessarily show a person; they simply show a report

8 and then somebody is talking. So I'm not sure whether Mr. Zaric's person

9 was shown on television, but I know for a fact that it was a report from

10 Samac for the Novi Sad television, and we could hear the audio part but

11 not see the visual.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You will probably agree with me that Simo Zaric was not a

15 journalist.

16 A. No.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the counsel.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you keep moving away from the microphone.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] We have a problem with the

20 transcript. I was just told that when I asked you whether you agreed that

21 Mr. Simo Zaric was not a journalist, you responded "no." Is that what you

22 said?

23 A. Well, Simo Zaric was not a journalist.

24 Q. When testifying here before the Court Chamber, you said that you

25 frequently heard Mr. Zaric talk on Radio Serbian Samac.

Page 4799

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, these frequent appearances of his on Radio Samac, did they

3 take place after the 30th of April of 1992?

4 A. I listened to Mr. -- I heard Mr. Simo Zaric after the 30th of

5 April as well.

6 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that in Odzak municipality, there

7 was a military administration which was introduced by the Krajina Corps of

8 the army of Republika Srpska?

9 A. No. I just know that there were soldiers from Krajina there. Now,

10 who was the entity that established the administration, I really don't

11 know that.

12 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Simo Zaric was a member of the

13 military political council in Odzak, in charge of security affairs?

14 A. No. I know that he had an important function, but which function

15 exactly it was, I don't know.

16 Q. You will probably agree with me that Mirko Pavic was a commander

17 of police in Odzak.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know that there was also a command in Odzak, a command

20 which belonged to the 1st Krajina Corps of the army of Republika Srpska?

21 A. I've already replied that I did not know whether those were

22 commands or whatever. I simply heard and saw that those were soldiers

23 from Krajina.

24 Q. You mentioned checkpoints at the entry point in Odzak. Were those

25 checkpoints manned by the members of the 1st Krajina Corps of the army of

Page 4800

1 Republika Srpska?

2 A. I don't know. I did not know those soldiers. I don't know

3 whether they were soldiers from Odzak or from Krajina.

4 Q. You also mentioned in your testimony that Simo Zaric's sister,

5 Jelena, with her underage son, was accommodated in the hotel in Odzak.

6 A. Yes, and her underage son was not older than 16, but he was

7 wearing a uniform and equipped with a pistol.

8 Q. And are you aware of the fact that Jelena Zaric, before the

9 conflict broke out, lived and worked in Odzak?

10 A. In conversation with her, because Amira Tihic and I worked

11 together, and Amira Tihic is friends with her, I know that she, herself,

12 said that Muslims had helped her get out, and she probably mentioned where

13 she had lived and worked, but I didn't go into that.

14 Q. Do you know Simo's sister, Koviljka she is married to Mujaga

15 Omeranovic, a Muslim from Bosanski Samac; is that correct?

16 A. [redacted].

17 Q. And are you aware of fact that Simo's sister, Simo's young sister,

18 Nada, who is a doctor, is married to a Croat?

19 A. No.

20 Q. But you will agree with me that Mr. Simo Zaric's wife, Fatima, is

21 a Muslim by ethnicity?

22 A. I know she was a Muslim, and I haven't really checked whether she

23 is still one or not.

24 Q. And are you aware of the fact that Simo Zaric has a daughter by

25 the name of Natasa and a son named Milan?

Page 4801

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Son named "Mirel."

2 A. Of course. Natasa was in the same class as my daughter and Mirel

3 now has a cafe in Samac, which my daughter frequents.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You probably know that Simo Zaric brought up a stepson by the name

6 of Denis, whose father is a Muslim.

7 A. Of course. He brought up Fatima's child, but I don't know who his

8 father is. I know only rumours, but nothing firm.

9 Q. Are you aware that Simo's daughter Natasa married a Croat from

10 Bosanski Samac?

11 A. I certainly do [sic].

12 Q. When you asked Mr. Simo Zaric to help you and your kuma, [redacted]

13 [redacted], you said that Simo Zaric told you on that occasion that you need

14 to convert.

15 A. I will tell you exactly what I said. I first asked Mr. Simo Zaric

16 whether he knew that my kuma, [redacted], was detained in Zasavica,

17 to which he replied he didn't know that. And then I told him, "Now you

18 know." Since Mr. Simo Zaric used to be this woman's boss, the director of

19 her company, and they were good friends while she was living in Samac, I

20 had good reason to address, to approach Mr. Simo Zaric to ask help in

21 getting out of Samac. This is what he told me: "There are two ways for

22 her to get out of Samac. One is to convert." And Simo Zaric wasn't

23 cheating me. He wasn't deceiving me, because that was really one way of

24 getting out of Samac. And the other way, he said, was to wait for an

25 exchange.

Page 4802

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 Q. We will go into that in more detail. You will agree with the fact

13 that no one who did not have a Serbian name and surname was able to leave

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is, Republika Srpska?

15 A. I'm not aware of everything. Perhaps somebody managed to get out.

16 But to the extent that I talked to my fellow citizens, anyone who crossed

17 over to Serbia or Hungary was forced to pay for documents in the name of a

18 Serbian person, with a Serbian name and surname, and such papers were paid

19 from 1.500 Deutschmark and higher. And then -- sorry. From 500 to 1.500

20 Deutschmark. And then people started to have less money. And these

21 documents were provided by --

22 Q. You know that many Croats and Muslims with false identity papers

23 left for Serbia, that is, Yugoslavia, and further?

24 A. I do know that they made their exit with identity papers.

25 Q. Can we agree --

Page 4803

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Sorry. Counsel, before you go to the next question,

2 the answer is -- you heard the answer she said. She made the exit with

3 identity papers. Not what you put to her, that they got false ... Where

4 is your question? Yes. Just the answer which she gave, yes. The

5 implication is that they were not false identity papers, because her

6 answer simply says they got -- they made their exit with identity papers.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Can we agree that those identity papers with Serbian names and

9 surnames on them were forged?

10 A. Sir, I don't know whether they were forged and how they allowed

11 anyone to pass if they were, how they were accepted, but they were not

12 issued in names like Tihic Amira. It was always something like Radojica,

13 and then some Serbian last name. And how come one-third of the population

14 of Samac was able to get out with that kind of documents if you claim that

15 they were forged? And in order to get -- to procure such a document, the

16 person not only had to change their name, but also had to pay the costs,

17 and those costs were not within the limits of administrative stamp duties,

18 5, 10 Deutschmark. Those were larger amounts. The lowest amount was 500,

19 and it varied up to 1.500 Deutschmark. And I suppose it was the

20 authorities who should have established whether they were forged or not,

21 these papers.

22 Q. Now, can we reach an understanding finally? That is, let us

23 clarify. If a document such as an identity card contains false,

24 inaccurate personal details, then such a document is false, a forgery of

25 some kind?

Page 4804

1 A. You know that I'm perfectly well aware of what is a forgery and

2 what is not. I never had in my hands what you like to call a forgery. A

3 forgery, to my mind, in such a situation, could have passed in one or two

4 occasions. However, in our case, about one-third of the Muslim population

5 got out with such papers. How come that the authorities which were in

6 power at that time in Samac were unable to discover, to reveal and expose

7 them as a forgery?

8 Q. Will you agree that it was a false document?

9 A. I didn't see it.

10 Q. Can we agree that a change of the first and last names does not

11 mean necessarily that a person has changed their ethnic or religious

12 affiliation?

13 A. In my mind, that's a very difficult thing to say, because I'm not

14 the kind of person who was willing to change either my first or the last

15 names, and I cannot speak on behalf of such people. But it is very well

16 known to me that the citizens who had changed their names now have

17 difficulty in changing them back. Those people had probably wanted to

18 spare themselves the suffering that I went through. However, for some

19 people, dignity is -- the sense of dignity is stronger than life itself.

20 I am what I was born. I didn't change anything.

21 Q. You, as a person who studied law, are certainly aware that one

22 could change one's name in administrative proceedings upon one's own

23 request.

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. You will agree with me that conversion into Christianity and

Page 4805

1 baptism is a religious rite conducted in church?

2 A. I didn't attend one.

3 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pisarevic, where are these questions taking us,

4 this exploration? Where is it taking us to? Please get to the point.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the first time

6 before this Court, this witness mentioned conversion into Christianity and

7 baptism. Since we believe that this is a very important issue, I want to

8 discuss with the witness the method and procedure for such conversion into

9 a different religion, and the difference that exists between a name change

10 and conversion, plus whether a name change was made conditional upon

11 conversion into a different religion, and to what extent conversion into a

12 different religion affects one's affiliation to an ethnic group.

13 JUDGE SINGH: But where will this take you? Because basically, as

14 I understand the witness, or as I understand what's happening, is that

15 there are two ways to get out. One is you convert, and then you go to a

16 proper authority and you have a Serb name. The other is not to convert,

17 and to give a false Serbian name and somehow get the papers and leave,

18 whether it's through officialdom, through corruption, or through other

19 means. So where would that take you anyway, insofar as the issues of this

20 case are concerned? I think perhaps you wish to concentrate on her

21 particular evidence relating to herself, because this general discourse,

22 many of the answers may just be speculative. So please go on with her

23 evidence.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. Can we agree that a name change, that is, a change of the first

Page 4806

1 and last names, did not require necessarily to change one's religion and

2 ethnic background?

3 A. Do you mean during the war or before the war? No, no, no. I know

4 that some people even went to church. [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]. She is even

7 the laughing stock now of some friends of mine of Serbian nationality, and

8 I'm sorry to hear such jokes, because I think that's something that a

9 person is entitled to, like changing a party. She was born to a Croat and

10 a Muslim, that is, in a mixed marriage. She has -- she had a Muslim

11 husband --

12 THE INTERPRETER: She has a Croat husband. Correction.

13 A. And she started going now to the Orthodox Church, because during

14 the war that was impossible. The other two churches have not been

15 restored, to this day, in Samac, after they were destroyed during the war.

16 We could keep the Trial Chamber busy for an entire day listening to more

17 examples. I know that these were forced conversions. People were forced

18 to do that to spare themselves the suffering that perhaps 90 per cent of

19 citizens had to go through, and 10 per cent were spared. And these

20 people, after converting, were allowed perhaps to stay at home and not go

21 to forced labour. But who exactly in Samac did this, I cannot put my

22 finger on it to this day.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I think now is the time for a

24 break, or shall I continue?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we will have a break and continue at 11.30

Page 4807

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Page 4808

1 hours.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, may I just very briefly

3 raise one issue? It's nothing to do with this witness or the proceedings.

4 That's this: Your anticipated schedule for your hearing of submissions or

5 any further submissions on the admission of the variant A and B document.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I understood from comments made by the Chamber just

8 recently that you intended to deal with the matter at some point in the

9 changing of witnesses and so on. May I respectfully ask that if you do

10 want to do -- deal with that issue at such a point, could we do so at the

11 conclusion of the next witness' evidence, following the next witness'

12 evidence, because there are some matters that I want to attend to? If

13 that causes any inconvenience to the Chamber, then I would prefer to deal

14 with it not before then, if that's convenient.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. You are asking the Chamber to deal with that

16 after the next witness is through.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not asking the Chamber to deal with it at any

18 specific time, but I ask not before the conclusion of the next witness.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Whenever the Chamber wants, but thereafter, if it's

21 okay.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll consider that.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

Page 4809

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination is continuing with Mr.

2 Pisarevic.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. On the 17th of July, 1992, you were told for the first time that

5 you had to go to work in Odzak?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Can you tell me what was the first day you went to work in Odzak?

8 A. I believe it to be the 18th of July. I'm not sure, but it was

9 immediately after Kornica. I went to Kornica for two or three days,

10 perhaps five. I don't know myself any more.

11 Q. In front of the local commune building in Bosanski Samac, you were

12 told by the clerk for work obligation that you were to go to work in Odzak

13 that day; is that correct?

14 A. Every morning I would be told by the clerk, who would read out

15 from a list a group of people who were to go to Odzak, to Kornica, to

16 work. This is how we knew where to go.

17 Q. And each time one armed individual would accompany you; is that

18 right?

19 A. There would be a driver and one armed individual.

20 Q. When you would come to Odzak, you would normally stop before the

21 police station?

22 A. Yes, MUP.

23 Q. The individual escorting you would give you work tasks for that

24 day; isn't that so?

25 A. He would normally be given orders from the gentleman who would be

Page 4810

1 there, whether it would be Mirko Pavic or somebody else, and the others

2 would be given tasks by somebody else.

3 Q. You have stated before this Chamber that you went to Odzak until

4 the 11th of August of 1992.

5 A. Yes, and then I stopped because I had to take care of my husband.

6 Q. Well, can you tell me: During those 20-something days from your

7 first day until the 11th of August, how many times in total did you go to

8 work in Odzak?

9 A. Well, I think that I didn't go some maybe two or three days either

10 because my name was not called out or because I didn't go there.

11 Q. How many times did Mirko Pavic help you by sending you to work in

12 the MUP building in Odzak?

13 A. Whenever he was present when the group was brought in. Sometimes

14 he simply wouldn't be present there.

15 Q. How many times?

16 A. Well, I'm sure that Mirko Pavic helped me at least three or four

17 times. I'm not sure exactly. He certainly helped me.

18 Q. You stated before this Tribunal, and this is recorded in

19 transcript page 4683, line 22, 23, that your husband was arrested on the

20 orders of Stevan Todorovic. Is that true?

21 A. Well, just a minute. There was no written order. There were

22 three armed soldiers who came.

23 Q. Can we agree that your husband was arrested on the orders of

24 Stevan Todorovic?

25 A. Out of those three armed soldiers there was a boy, I think from

Page 4811

1 Skarici, a young man from Skarici, who used to work at the department

2 store, and he told me that pursuant to the orders of Mr. Todorovic, they

3 had to arrest Hasan.

4 Q. And Stevan Todorovic at the time was the chief of SUP; isn't that

5 true?

6 A. Yes, as far as I know.

7 Q. Now, these three men who took your husband away, they took him to

8 the SUP building, to the police building, where he was held; isn't that

9 so?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And during the entire time, your husband was detained in the

12 police station in Bosanski Samac; is that so?

13 A. No. On the 27th of November, he was taken to Batkovici.

14 Q. Oh, I see. That's what you mean. Which means that your husband

15 was kept in the police station in Bosanski Samac until the 27th of

16 November of 1992; is that so?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell me what kind of uniforms those three men that

19 arrested your husband were wearing at the time?

20 A. Well, they had uniforms. I cannot remember what colour they were

21 because I really -- those uniforms had no significance for me at the time.

22 What was important for me was that my husband was being taken away. Now,

23 whether somebody was blond or had dark hair or had blue or green uniform,

24 this is simply something I did not pay attention to.

25 Q. During your testimony, you mentioned Slobodan, who used to work at

Page 4812

1 the department store, at the wall-to-wall carpet section. Can we agree

2 that he was a member of the police force in Samac?

3 A. Well, if he weren't a member of police, he probably wouldn't have

4 come to get my husband, and I cannot know this for certain. I cannot

5 claim something. Because he didn't show me an arrest warrant, nor did he

6 show me his police ID, which would indicate that he was a member of the

7 police.

8 Q. Together with Jelena Kapetanovic and Ruza Matic, police took you

9 to Zasavica; isn't that so?

10 A. Yes. There were one or two men in the truck, and several of the

11 policemen entered my house, because I -- some of them I knew, because they

12 were policemen from prior to the war, and two young men I had never seen

13 before in my municipality. The only person I recognised was Naser

14 Sejdinovic, known as Cakar.

15 Q. Can we agree that Naser Sejdic, known as Cakar, was a policeman?

16 A. He's probably Sejdic not Sejdinovic, as I've said. You are right.

17 His last name is Sejdic.

18 Q. Well, is he a policeman?

19 A. Yes, I know he is.

20 Q. Did other people who came to Zasavica, did they also come escorted

21 by police there?

22 A. I don't know about that, because when -- it certainly was the case

23 when I was brought there, and I don't know about others, because it's

24 something I didn't see. Now, when other people after me were brought in,

25 I would generally meet them after they disembarked from the vehicle.

Page 4813

1 Q. I will put my last question to you, and I would ask that you reply

2 by "yes" or "no" to it. Madam K, after Mr. Zaric surrendered to The Hague

3 Tribunal in 1998, on the 24th of February, you have called his wife Fatima

4 several times on the telephone; yes or no?

5 A. Well, why would I call her pursuant to somebody else talking me

6 into that? Fatima and I have always had a good relationship. We never

7 had any kind of conflict between us. We even meet to this day. Now, who

8 should be the person to talk me into that, to put me up to call her, to

9 put me up to call my former and present friend? I have no complaints as

10 far as she is concerned. I have no problems talking to her. She was in

11 Belgrade during the war, but we would normally talk regularly. So how is

12 it -- Mrs. Fatima never asked me not to testify, although she did know

13 that I was going to testify in the case of her husband.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

15 Q. If I understood you correctly, your reply means that you did call

16 Fatima on telephone on a few occasions.

17 A. Well, perhaps two or three times, perhaps even more than that.

18 Q. I have no further questions. Thank you.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The next counsel to cross-examine. Mr. Zecevic.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Zecevic:

22 Q. Good morning, ma'am. My name is Slobodan Zecevic. I am an

23 attorney and I will put several questions to you.

24 A. I'll be pleased to answer them.

25 Q. Thank you. I will try, to the best of my ability, to avoid

Page 4814

1 putting to you questions that could possibly identify you and members of

2 your family, but I will kindly ask you to keep your mind on it and try not

3 to say your name, your last name, to us. And the last thing I would ask

4 you, if at all possible, could you please give very brief answers? Wait

5 for my questions, and then give very brief answers. I will try to put to

6 you questions which can be answered by "yes," "no," or "I don't know."

7 A. So you will try and put clear and concise questions; right?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Well, I will do my best as well.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: And Mr. Zecevic.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: If your cross-examination requires private session,

14 please say so.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Gentlemen, Your Honours. The first part of my

16 cross-examination, in my opinion, does not require private session, and I

17 will inform this Honourable Trial Chamber when I think it's needed.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. All right.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, you confirmed that you were not a member

21 of the SDA several times during your testimony.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Your husband was a member of the SDA, wasn't he?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. He was one of the prominent members, wasn't he?

Page 4815

1 A. No.

2 Q. Based on your testimony here before this Tribunal concerning the

3 night of the 16th and 17th, you said that he sat with Mr. Izetbegovic and

4 Sulejman Tihic in Rustika, didn't he?

5 A. No. He went to Rustika because I was worried that something was

6 going on, and to see what was going on, and he stayed very briefly there

7 and then came back home and then left again, and then shortly thereafter

8 returned again.

9 Q. Thank you. Your husband attended meetings of the SDA, didn't he?

10 A. My husband attended meetings very rarely. In the beginning, when

11 the SDA was just established, he did attend them, but he was probably

12 influenced by me in that decision. He was not a member of any of the

13 committees, executive committees or I don't know what other committees

14 existed there.

15 Q. Can you tell me: While he attended those meetings, he probably

16 told you what was going on at the SDA, didn't he?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Well, you were husband and wife.

19 A. No, he didn't, because I was against national parties.

20 Q. Thank you. Did he -- did you perhaps in some other way find out

21 that the SDA established an armed unit?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Your husband did have an automatic rifle, didn't he?

24 A. Yes. He got it from the TO, headed by late Milos Bogdanovic.

25 Q. Madam, you are probably aware of the fact that your husband was

Page 4816

1 the commander of one of the sections of that unit in charge of arming.

2 A. No, because in order to do that, he would have to sign some kind

3 of a decision allocating him to that function. If my husband -- perhaps

4 if he was a quartermaster, perhaps I would have believed that, but my

5 husband is known to me, and everybody else from our town sitting here, as

6 a person who can only go buy sugar and papers and do nothing else, and you

7 know what qualities a quartermaster's post requires.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: May the usher please show the witness document D24/2

9 ter, and I provided a folder number 1, and this is an official translation

10 of the document which I received only a couple of days ago, Your Honours.

11 And if the official translation can be put on the ELMO, one copy. The

12 original before the witness, and the copy -- the English copies you can

13 distribute, and one copy on the ELMO, please.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just have the --

15 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I was just reminded

16 because there is a name, we should go into the private -- we should go

17 into private, because it was under seal admitted. It was a sealed

18 document.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: So we should go into closed session.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, we should go into the closed session, yes.

21 [Closed Session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4817

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13 Page 4817 to 4823 redacted closed session.

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Page 4824

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we are now in open session.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

13 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry. Just to clarify. [redacted]

14 [redacted]; it belonged to Cadaster municipality. What is

15 that?

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, the Cadaster municipality is actually

17 the land registry. She is referring to the land registry of Samac, [redacted]

18 [redacted],

19 [redacted]. I can clarify that

20 with the witness, if you like me to.

21 JUDGE SINGH: [Microphone not activated]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Singh.

23 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry. If the land was leased out from the

24 municipality or whether they had bought it, [redacted]

25 [redacted]--

Page 4825

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 4826

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I will pose that question.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, please tell me about [redacted], the land.

3 The land and the house and everything on it, [redacted]?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That land was entered in the land register of the Samac

6 municipality. That's what you meant when you gave me your previous

7 answer; is it correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: You're welcome, Your Honour.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, could you please tell me: Your husband

12 went to get that travel pass and got it; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. He got it in his own name; is that correct?

15 A. He asked one for me too, but they told him I didn't need one and I

16 would be able to visit anyway.

17 Q. Would you please just answer me: He got a pass in his name; is

18 that correct? Yes or no?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Did your husband tell you on that occasion that he

21 spent some time waiting in line?

22 A. Yes. There were other people waiting there. I don't know who

23 they were. I don't know how many.

24 Q. So your husband told you that the people that he waited in line

25 with were of Serbian ethnicity; isn't that so?

Page 4827

1 A. I don't remember whether they were of Serbian ethnicity or they

2 were coming from a mixed background.

3 Q. Thank you. Did he tell you that in addition to Milan Simic, he

4 saw somebody else in the office, if you remember, madam?

5 A. I think Mr. Jovanovic, or Ivanovic. It was a person who worked in

6 the executive board of the Municipal Assembly. I think so. I don't know.

7 I know this person by sight. At any case, it was somebody else sitting

8 there as well.

9 Q. Was it perhaps Mirko Jovanovic?

10 A. I truly don't know the name. This person came to Samac some year

11 or two before the war. He was not originally from our municipality.

12 Q. But he was the chairman of the executive board of the municipality

13 at that time in April of 1992?

14 A. I truly don't know whether he was a chairman of the executive

15 board. I simply know that he worked in the Municipal Assembly.

16 Q. So let us sum up. This gentleman, Mr. Jovanovic, as far as you

17 know, worked in the executive board of the Samac municipality in April of

18 1992?

19 A. I don't know whether he worked in the executive board. He did

20 work -- he did have a job in the Municipal Assembly building. What

21 exactly was his title, I truly don't know.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Just bear with me, Your Honours.

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You just told us that your husband said that you didn't need a

Page 4828

1 travel pass; isn't that so?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Isn't it true that he needed a pass because he was a person with a

4 military duty and you were not?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Thank you. Madam, you completed several years of law school,

7 didn't you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So to some extent, you are familiar with regulations, laws, of the

10 former Yugoslavia and Bosnia and Herzegovina?

11 A. I am familiar with the former regulations. And as far as the

12 current ones are concerned, I am trying to.

13 Q. What I had in mind were the regulations which were in force in

14 April of 1992.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Madam, in that case, you probably know that military duty was an

17 obligation for all men aged between 16 and 60; isn't that so?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In case of war or threat of war, a mobilisation of all

20 military-aged men was proclaimed; isn't that so?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. There is some

23 clarification in the transcript.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: I will pose the question.

Page 4829

1 Q. [Interpretation] The transcript reflected 16 and 60, whereas we

2 said 18 and 60, isn't that so? The men aged between 18 and 60 had a

3 military duty; isn't that so?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. You also know that in case of war and threat of war,

6 all citizens had a work duty, including women; isn't that so?

7 A. In former Yugoslavia, women also had their wartime assignments.

8 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Zecevic, when you are assigned - perhaps you can

9 help us with this - when there's mobilisation, as in this case you're

10 saying there was, what happens? Do they send you a notice of mobilisation

11 or they just come and take you away from your house?

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, do you want me to explain that or

13 should I ask the witness?

14 JUDGE SINGH: No, no.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course. Ask the witness.

16 Q. [Interpretation] So you heard Judge Singh's question. When there

17 was mobilisation, did they send call-ups or was there a general

18 proclamation of mobilisation?

19 A. Well, there were no call-ups. The residents could hear, if they

20 had a radio or any other source of information and were listening to it at

21 that time, and at that time most of us were indeed listening. Then we

22 would hear what was going on, on the radio. And the former law of the

23 former Yugoslavia set forth that there would be couriers bringing in

24 military call-up papers, indicating where each individual would go for

25 their wartime assignments. And it was -- prior to that, all of the

Page 4830

1 individuals with military duty had their wartime assignments, which could

2 be changed once the war broke out, but not in the way it was done where we

3 live.

4 Q. Madam, you and I are very familiar with this issue, but in order

5 to explain this properly to the Trial Chamber, let us start from the

6 beginning. Military duty, as you said, applied to all men aged between 18

7 and 60; isn't that so?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So all men who were part of military reserve had their wartime

10 assignment well in advance to any kind of war or a threat of war; isn't

11 that so?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. This wartime assignment was entered into their military books,

14 cards; isn't that so?

15 A. Yes. And there was a decision to support it as well.

16 Q. Yes, but when that wartime assignment was entered into their

17 military books or cards, they were considered official assignments,

18 weren't they?

19 A. Yes. This information would be entered into the military book

20 based on the decision on wartime assignment received prior to that.

21 Q. Exactly so. So these decisions and their entering into the

22 military books were performed by the national defence authorities; isn't

23 that so?

24 A. Yes. It was performed by them and also by the important work

25 organisations, could do that as well, and this was further confirmed by

Page 4831

1 the Territorial Defence or national defence authorities.

2 Q. If you know, did your husband have a wartime assignment [redacted]

3 [redacted] where he used to work?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Does that mean, as far as you know, that in case of war, he had an

6 obligation, just like everybody else, to go to his wartime assignment

7 location? Is that how you see it?

8 A. Yes. If he had a way of getting to his wartime assignment

9 location.

10 Q. Well, yes, absolutely. I don't mean just your husband; I mean

11 everybody else. I asked you this question because I thought you know it

12 would apply to everybody else. So that means that in case of war or

13 threat of war, when a war or threat of war situation was proclaimed by

14 relevant authorities, he would not be issued a separate call-up, but it

15 was understood that he had an obligation to immediately go to his wartime

16 assignment location; isn't that so?

17 A. Yes, if he had a way of getting there. My husband did not have a

18 way of getting there.

19 Q. Madam, I apologise for taking your husband as an example. My

20 questions do not refer to your husband at all; I'm just asking a general

21 question. What I'm saying pertained to everybody with a military

22 obligation; isn't that so?

23 A. Yes, including women, because women had such an obligation as

24 well, in case they were able.

25 Q. So if I understood you properly, there was no special call-up for

Page 4832

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Page 4833

1 mobilisation, but rather the residents were informed through mass media,

2 by a proclamation issued through mass media; isn't that so?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I believe -- [Previous translation

5 continues] ... or would you like me --

6 JUDGE SINGH: Just the last bit of my question. So he didn't end

7 up [redacted] where he was supposed to go. He wasn't somewhere

8 else. Perhaps you want to clarify --

9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I suppose that you have heard the question of the judge. So let

11 me rephrase it. Your husband did not manage to get to his wartime

12 assignment location; isn't that so?

13 A. My husband did not manage to get to [redacted] because

14 that neighbourhood had already been taken by the paramilitary units, and

15 three or four citizens had already been killed, and those were -- or

16 perhaps they were wounded. And those were the people that tried to get to

17 the veterinary station. And it includes Dr. Adnan Cizmic, who attempted

18 to get through, and he was stopped somewhere between MUP and Agropromet

19 company. He was shot in his leg.

20 Q. You recently told us that your husband headed towards the TO

21 building, [redacted].

22 A. My husband headed and then got to a certain place, and then he

23 couldn't proceed because there was a lot of shooting going on. Now,

24 whether my husband headed to [redacted] Territorial Defence

25 building, this is something that you should have clarified with him, not

Page 4834

1 with me. At any case, he wasn't able to get further from the bazaar. He

2 came up to the house of his relative and then came back home.

3 Q. So he spent only a brief time outside; isn't that so?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, let us go back to the issue of work obligation. If I

6 understood you correctly, you are familiar with the fact that in case of

7 war or threat of war, there was a work obligation for all citizens; isn't

8 that so?

9 A. As I have said, everybody who had a military obligation, men from

10 18 to 60 who were able, and women from 18 to 55, had a wartime assignment,

11 including myself, which means that it included such jobs as dish washing,

12 cooking, protecting archives, medical corps, quartermasters' duties, and a

13 lot of other duties. You know, what else can be included? Everything

14 that needs to be done during peacetime needs to be done during wartime. So

15 women also had their wartime assignments.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: I see my learned colleague.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

18 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I have a bit of an objection. I just

19 want a clarification. This is under the law of the former Yugoslavia. As

20 the Prosecution has mentioned through witnesses, Bosnia-Herzegovina

21 declared its independence. This concerns laws of the former Yugoslavia,

22 and I would just request that when counsel asks these questions about

23 these positions that one had to perform, this concerns the former

24 government, not the government which was in place in April of 1992.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel, you should clear that.

Page 4835

1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Madam, we are now talking about the laws and regulations which

3 were in force in the territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

4 -- please allow me to finish -- up until the 17th of April, 1992; isn't

5 that so?

6 A. No. You and I were discussing laws of the former Yugoslavia.

7 Please check the transcript. It should reflect it. Former Yugoslavia.

8 Q. Madam, former Yugoslavia was in existence on the 17th of April,

9 1992.

10 A. No. Bosnia had already been proclaimed at the time, and I really

11 am not familiar with the laws of Bosnia, not even today's laws on national

12 defence. I don't know whether they were adopted or not, and I did not

13 look into these laws ever since Bosnia was proclaimed and up until the war

14 broke out.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think sometimes counsel does delve deeply

16 into the status of the law then or at whatever time. I know that the

17 witness did study law, but she is here as a fact witness.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, these questions which I was asking are

19 really a common knowledge and have been -- they have been by all means

20 known to everybody who lived in the former Yugoslavia. That is why I

21 asked this witness. And more, because she happens to have a certain level

22 of legal education. What I am trying now is to satisfy the request by

23 this Honourable Trial Chamber made on the objection by my learned

24 colleague. That is all.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps --

Page 4836

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: -- not getting into --

3 MR. ZECEVIC: I just have two questions. Please bear with me one

4 second, please.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

6 [Defence counsel confer]

7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. All right, madam. So what you have said so far pertained to the

9 rules in force in the territory of the former Yugoslavia at that time;

10 isn't that so?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. Please tell me, madam: You mentioned your wartime

13 assignment. Where was your wartime assignment?

14 A. I did not have a wartime assignment in Bosnia, and as far as the

15 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is concerned, I did have one, and my

16 wartime assignment was located in the work organisation of eight

17 self-interest communities, but I was not bound by it any more.

18 Q. I understood you completely. You are now referring to the wartime

19 assignment you had within the former Yugoslavia, and this was located in

20 the building of self-interest communities where you used to work; isn't

21 that so?

22 A. Yes, and once the new state was proclaimed, my previous wartime

23 assignment was not valid any more.

24 Q. Your wartime assignment certainly didn't include you taking up a

25 rifle and going and fighting; at least that was the concept in the former

Page 4837

1 Yugoslavia?

2 A. Well, since this is not a military secret any more, I can reveal

3 my wartime assignment to you. My wartime assignment pertained to me

4 working in my normal job in the self-interest community, dealing with

5 welfare benefits, education issues, physical culture, culture, housing,

6 and so on. So my wartime assignment did not at all include anything like

7 taking up a broom and going to sweep.

8 Q. So your official wartime assignment at this self-interest

9 community included what you had just described, and that could also be

10 referred to as the work obligation; isn't that so?

11 A. I believe that it was called wartime assignment. In case of need,

12 well, perhaps that could also be deemed to be work obligation, but let us

13 not guess now. I actually do not know the answer to this question.

14 Q. So in former Yugoslavia, all of the citizens had this civic duty

15 and obligation; isn't that so?

16 A. Yes, everybody who was able and fit.

17 Q. Including those men who were able and fit but did not go to their

18 wartime units pursuant to their wartime assignment; isn't that so?

19 A. You still have the former Yugoslavia in mind?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. All conscripts in the former Yugoslavia had their wartime

22 assignments, so if this conscript worked at a company called 11th April

23 and his job entailed sweeping streets, then within that job, within that

24 profession and those working skills, that person would get a similar

25 wartime assignment.

Page 4838

1 Q. I absolutely agree with you. And similarly to that, your husband

2 was given a wartime assignment [redacted]?

3 A. In the former Yugoslavia, which was not valid on the 17th of

4 April, my husband did not have to honour that wartime assignment on that

5 day.

6 Q. Madam, please have in mind what we're talking about. We are

7 talking about the former Yugoslavia. This is what we're talking about.

8 So my question was as follows: Was the same wartime assignment as the

9 example you gave us for people working at the 11th April company, did it

10 also apply to your husband? Your husband had a wartime assignment [redacted]

11 [redacted], and during the war he would probably have tasks which were

12 similar to his peacetime tasks and he would not be required to go and

13 shoot with his rifle; isn't that so?

14 A. Probably, if Yugoslavia had remained whole, if Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina had not been proclaimed, he would never have been invited to

16 the TO to take a rifle. So that means that his wartime assignment had

17 probably become null and void, because Bosnia and Herzegovina was no

18 longer part of Yugoslavia. So he got an invitation, or a summons, went to

19 the TO and took that rifle.

20 Q. I'll try once again, as clearly as I can, to put this question.

21 Please answer it with a "yes," "no," or "I don't know," and please do your

22 best, too. I'm trying to make this as short as possible, because we are

23 talking about things that don't really matter to this particular

24 examination.

25 A. And I am still trying to answer with a "yes" or "no" whenever I

Page 4839

1 can, but if a question is not as simple as that, then I want the Trial

2 Chamber to understand what we are talking about, what is at issue.

3 Because not all questions can be answered by yes or no. Some things

4 simply remain unsaid, hanging in the air.

5 Q. Okay. But please, do try.

6 According to the regulations prevailing in the former Yugoslavia,

7 this civic duty applied to all citizens, regardless of their ethnic

8 background; is that true?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You have spoken here about your husband and son, who commenced in

11 their working obligation slightly before you did.

12 A. Yes. They responded to the general mobilisation call-up.

13 Q. I'll read to you now a part of your testimony of the 27th

14 November. Since the transcript I'm reading is in English, I'll read in

15 English, and the interpreters will interpret it for you. The page in

16 question is 4619, lines 13 to 16 in the transcript:

17 [In English] "And then Ljubisa and sometimes Stevica or Beg,

18 Sabahudin and then Sejdinovic, they changed, and they would come outside

19 with small pieces of paper and they would read out the names of 20 or 30

20 people and say: You are going to dig trenches in Pisarevici, you are

21 going to Crkvina, you are going to do this or that."

22 Did you say this, ma'am?

23 A. Yes, I did, and it's true.

24 Q. Madam, please tell me: This gentleman, Beg, this Sabahudin Nogic

25 and Sejdinovic, all of them are Muslims, aren't they?

Page 4840

1 A. Yes, they are.

2 Q. Thank you. I will read to you another part of your testimony

3 before this Court. It's about the beginning of July, when you, too, were

4 asked to report for work duty. The transcript date 27th of November, page

5 4625, lines 23 to 25.:

6 [In English] First, the question was: "Did you report somewhere

7 to be given a work assignment?

8 A. Well, first a courier named Rasovic [phoen] came to

9 my house, and he brought me a small piece of paper, a summons, telling me

10 to report to the local community the following morning. Some woman had

11 already been going to milk cows since April, so I reported to the local

12 community. When I arrived, I went to see Beg, Beg. That was

13 Kapetanovic. I don't know his first name. And I said: What's all this?

14 And he said: From now on -- and then he whispered: Until better times,

15 you will report every morning at 7.00 or 8.00, depending on when the

16 curfew ends, here in front of the local commune, and you will be given a

17 work assignment."

18 [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. That man was a Muslim, wasn't he?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... P39 ter.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We seem to have a problem in the transcript.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Line 19, you mean, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What is the question?

Page 4841

1 MR. ZECEVIC: The question was: Is that what you said?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And the witness did answer "yes." All right.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Madam, having heard what I've just read, I asked you: Is that

5 what you said? Did you say that? And your answer was yes; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. May I see the document first? I'm

9 really sorry.

10 MR. WEINER: Excuse me, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MR. WEINER: Do we go back into closed session if they're going to

13 place it on the ELMO? I'm very sorry. Do we go back into closed session

14 if it's going to be placed on the ELMO or private session?

15 MR. ZECEVIC: That is exactly why I wanted to see the document,

16 Your Honours, just to make sure that we don't have to go into the closed

17 session.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: No, we don't have to go into the private session,

20 Your Honour -- closed session.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you want it on the ELMO or what?

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, just for the purposes of -- everybody can see,

23 it's just a name which doesn't have anything to do with this witness.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: I am so sorry.

Page 4842

1 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, do you see this document?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would you be so kind as to read what is written in the top left

4 corner, if you can.

5 A. I can't. I can't see.

6 Q. Please take the document closer.

7 A. Clerks of the 1st DB for duties of work brigades, data on the

8 method, conditions, and funds for the payment of salaries according to

9 established coefficients for the months of April, May, June, and July of

10 1992."

11 If you could please raise it a bit. This list -- you've asked me.

12 I want to explain. This list was drawn up in Samac on the 17th of

13 November, 1992, which means all of three months after the date which is

14 indicated at the top, which means -- it says here at the bottom: "Samac,

15 the 17th of November, 1992." If you could now move it to the left,

16 please. So in the signature, it's the president of the executive board

17 who is indicated, Milan Simic, economist.

18 Q. Is it this Milan Simic?

19 A. Do you mean if the signature is identical?

20 Q. You have to explain what you are reading.

21 A. I said this was drafted on the orders of the president of the

22 executive board, Milan Simic, and it was signed by him.

23 And now move it to the right, please. The value of the

24 coefficient is missing here.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: If Your Honours please, may I lead the witness in

Page 4843

1 this? Because I would not like to intimidate the witness, to cut her

2 short, but I mean, I don't need all the --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: -- all the data which is contained in this

5 document. We are losing time.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Witness, wait for questions from counsel on

7 this document.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Sorry, madam. I'll try to go through this document at our own

10 pace. Tell me, please: The first column are numbers; is that so?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. There are nine numbers, referring to nine persons; is that so?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. This person under number 1, Sejfudin Sejdinovic, you have already

15 said he was a Muslim and he was a clerk in the work brigade, the labour

16 brigade?

17 A. He was a clerk from the month of August onwards, and in the month

18 of July, he went with me to Kornica to establish the prevailing conditions

19 in agriculture.

20 Q. The gentleman under number 2, he was also the same, clerk for work

21 obligations, Dzevad Celic?

22 A. I think in the month of September he was a clerk, indeed. I know

23 that from my son, who told me. But from the date when I was taken to

24 Zasavica - and I know this firsthand - he went to dig trenches and do

25 other work, that is, labour, and he was not a clerk in this particular

Page 4844

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4845

1 period.

2 Q. Madam, between their jobs, as indicated, and their names, are

3 certain numbers. Can you tell me what they mean?

4 A. You mean the months?

5 Q. No. I mean this number here, what does it designate?

6 A. The number of working days.

7 Q. This number of working days means the same thing for all the other

8 persons on this list?

9 A. Yes, for the period indicated in the title for this number of

10 months.

11 Q. I understand. Thank you.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... The document so

13 we can see the rest --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. Mr. Usher, can you move the document

16 just a bit so we can see the rest of the document, the right side of the

17 document? No, the right side. The other. Yes. Thank you.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Here in the last column, under the heading

19 "dinars," certain amounts are indicated; isn't that right?

20 A. It is.

21 Q. The amount for Mr. Sejfudin Sejdinovic is 18.450; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As you understand this document, that means dinars; right?

24 A. Yes. Those were dinars.

25 Q. In your opinion, does this represent remuneration for their work;

Page 4846

1 yes or no?

2 A. Are you asking me whether it represents it or whether they got

3 it?

4 Q. I'm asking whether it represents remuneration.

5 A. It may represent it, but we can't see from this whether they

6 actually got it.

7 Q. These amounts of remuneration vary depending on the number of

8 working days; isn't that correct?

9 A. It is. I didn't dispute that. What I was trying to dispute --

10 Q. Madam, please. Tell me about these nine persons. Are they all

11 Muslims?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I don't need this document

15 any more. However, I would like you to present another document to the

16 witness. I am sorry. It's D23/2 ter.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Is there a problem with the document?

18 MR. ZECEVIC: This document can be also put on the ELMO. It's

19 practically the same people who are on the previous document are on this

20 document.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. The usher will just put this on the ELMO, please. Could you

24 please read for me the title of this document, if you can see it well.

25 A. "Payroll of clerks, the typist, couriers delivering summons, and

Page 4847

1 couriers in charge of work organisation in the labour brigade."

2 Q. Madam, can you tell us whether the same persons are indicated as

3 in the previous document?

4 A. Yes. Dzevad Celic ... Yes. The only difference is they were

5 grouped according to their occupation, their trade. It's the same group

6 of people.

7 Q. Tell me, please: In the line where Sejfudin Sejdinovic is

8 indicated, the column "total days" includes number 123?

9 A. Yes, but I'm telling you, he wasn't a clerk at that time.

10 Q. But the number is identical to the one in the previous document,

11 isn't it?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. And the same is true of the gentleman under number 2, who was a

14 clerk, and you claim he was not at that time, the number indicated is the

15 same as in the previous document.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Will you please look at the bottom of the page. Do you see here

18 in the bottom right-hand corner something is written, and there is a

19 signature?

20 A. It says, "Authorised by Sejfudin Sejdinovic." That's the

21 signature. Or "approved by."

22 Q. Tell me, please: What is written above his signature, it

23 says Ovjerio, approved by or authorised by, confirmed by?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Sejfudin Sejdinovic was -- is the clerk under number 1 in this

Page 4848

1 document; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I don't need this document

4 any more.

5 [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Zecevic. Sorry. I apologise for

7 mispronouncing your names. I wonder whether I could put a question to

8 yourself. Putting to one side for the moment the issue of the legal

9 status of laws of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in Bosnia

10 and Herzegovina since its declaration of independence in February 1992,

11 putting that to one side, is it your position that such work assignments

12 as given to this witness, previous witnesses, and so on, which appear to a

13 great extent to have been under armed guard, whether it's digging trenches

14 or in the fields or what have you, complied with the laws of the former

15 Yugoslavia concerning work obligation and so on, if people voluntarily

16 showed up at the local commune, as this witness has indicated to us.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may, very briefly, Your Honours. It is exactly

18 our understanding that this working obligation - and, I mean, this is what

19 we are going to prove in this case - that this working obligation was in

20 completely complying with the laws of the former Yugoslavia and the laws

21 of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time. But we are not talking about that,

22 because I would not like to prejudice something.

23 It is our understanding, on the other hand, that the voluntarism

24 is not an issue, because according to the laws at the time, it was the

25 obligation of each and every citizen of the former Yugoslavia to be

Page 4849

1 included either in the military or working obligation. So if he's not a

2 male within 18 to 60, or for whatever other reason was not included into

3 the military obligation, he was obliged to take part in the working

4 obligation.

5 On the other hand, the third question: The guards, the guard who

6 was accompanying these witnesses, in our understanding, was there to

7 protect them and not to guard them. And there were also -- we heard

8 evidence of I believe previous witness was actually -- has actually

9 confirmed that these guards were not guarding them, but they would bring

10 them to the trenches, and then the military unit which is on the trenches

11 is actually giving them assignment and all that. Thank you. And I

12 believe it's time, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall break for our lunch break.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, may I raise one brief issue

15 regarding the next witness.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: It's only this: I wonder if my learned friends

18 could give me an indication when they expect to finish, because the

19 witness is currently at the hotel. That's the first matter that I would

20 ask. And secondly, can I foreshadow a possible application for some sort

21 of protective measures in respect of the next witness that I understand

22 have not yet been made. He raised the issue with me last night, briefly.

23 I intend to see him over the break at the hotel and see what he wants to

24 say about the matter and find out from him what the issues are, and I just

25 thought I would foreshadow a possible application so that my learned

Page 4850

1 friends and the Chamber is aware that that may be coming from the

2 Prosecution before he gives his evidence. But if the Defence counsel

3 could let the Chamber know approximately when they expect to finish.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Mr. Zecevic, how long --

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, unfortunately, I don't have the

6 slightest idea, because I have -- this is, of course, not my witness. I

7 am cross-examining the Prosecutor's witness.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: And we have seen yesterday the level of control

10 that can be established over this witness. That is one aspect. I assumed

11 that until now I will use only 20 minutes, and I have used over an hour,

12 just because of the way how the witness is answering my questions.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: So I cannot really say anything. I believe that I

15 will need another hour, but really, don't take me for my word.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: You can't say.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: It might be even three hours.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

20 JUDGE SINGH: May I just make one point in reminder. I think that

21 if there have been answers favourable to yourselves from a primary witness

22 like the husband, then perhaps cross-examination of this witness in

23 respect of the same material may well be controlled, because the primary

24 witness is the most important.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, with all due respect, I'm

Page 4851

1 cross-examining the witness on the basis of the examination-in-chief

2 which was conducted by my learned friend yesterday, and the same

3 documents.

4 JUDGE SINGH: I'm making a general remark.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Oh, thank you.

6 JUDGE SINGH: There's no personal remark.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: No. I understand, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE SINGH: I've been following your questions.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio, it doesn't look like --

11 MR. DI FAZIO: It doesn't look like we'll finish this afternoon --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: No.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: -- if more counsel have to follow on from

14 Mr. Zecevic.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Because there are two -- yes.

16 Mr. Lukic, yes.

17 MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Could the counsel repeat what he said.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will not be cross-examining this

21 witness. I can say this on behalf of the Defence team of Miroslav Tadic.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So maybe we can ask Mr. Pantelic how

23 long he thinks he will need.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I have only slight questions and

25 clarifications with regard to the transcript and to the previous statement

Page 4852

1 during the examination-in-chief, so I will not take more than 20 minutes.

2 And I hope that this charming lady will be very cooperative, so we shall

3 be limited with yes or no answers, and under these conditions, I think 20

4 minutes. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll have the witness ready here on standby just

7 in case.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll resume the proceedings at 1530 this

11 afternoon.

12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.06 p.m.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4853

1 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are in open session, I think. We have had

3 to start late because of administrative and security problems in getting

4 the accused into the courtroom.

5 Yes, Mr. Zecevic, you can continue cross-examination.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam, once again. Madam, during

8 your testimony, you have said several times that you worked at the

9 self-interest community as a clerk; isn't that so?

10 A. Yes, in various self-interest groups, and that's where I worked.

11 Q. It's globally described and administrative described kind of

12 work what a clerk does?

13 A. Yes, it's an administrative kind of work, it also involves some

14 accounting work, and I also worked as a clerk for national defence.

15 Q. Let me paraphrase my question. Since you were a clerk, do you

16 believe that the clerks are those who in a way organise the work within

17 the scope of their job?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And they also implement it, don't they?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. WEINER: Objection.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

23 MR. WEINER: Are we talking about the clerks in these municipal

24 groups that she worked in in the 70s and '80s? Is that -- I don't see the

25 relevance to --

Page 4854

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, the relevance, my dear colleague, is that this

2 lady here was employed as a clerk for five years, so she is very competent

3 to say what is the business of a clerk, in general. And while we are

4 talking about these lists, the previous documents which I showed, there

5 are two clerks, and that was the relevance of this cross-examination.

6 MR. WEINER: I've got no objection to going over her background as

7 a clerk, but if he's going to try and say that these clerks that she saw

8 on those lists do the same work, then I've got a problem with it.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: I never posed that question, did I?

11 MR. WEINER: No. I just wanted to do it preventively.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: It did appear as though you were trying to say

13 that she did that job and there were those clerks on that list, maybe the

14 details of their work assignments were similar.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, with all due respect, I was just

16 referring to the general sense what the clerk does. I'm not referring to

17 anything.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Madam, I will read you now a segment from the transcript of the

21 27th of November. It will be in English. This is a transcript page 4628,

22 dated 27th November, lines 14 and 15. When asked by the Prosecutor:

23 Q. And these people, these hundred people or so, of

24 what ethnic group did they belong?

25 A. They were mostly Muslim, and some were Croats or

Page 4855

1 children of mixed marriages, for instance, Croat/Serbian,"

2 [Interpretation] So this question and answer were given in the

3 context of the work obligation. Do you remember saying that?

4 A. Yes, certainly.

5 Q. Thank you. Madam, and on the following page of the same

6 transcript, page 4630, lines 20 to 25, you said the following:

7 [In English] "There were more cases like that, more occasions

8 like that. Mr. Jasenica Dzemal came to pick women for forced labour.

9 Although I would not like to use that particular term, although it was

10 exactly what it was, because I certainly wouldn't go gathering, harvesting

11 corn or sweeping streets unless I was forced to. He needed slaves,

12 literally slaves, to go and clean his house and his cellar."

13 A. Yes. But prior to that I said that he was the one who called us

14 slaves. I didn't call myself a slave. Mr. Dzemal Jasenica, known as

15 Andra, called us slaves.

16 Q. [Interpretation] That was exactly what I was going to ask you. So

17 he was the one who called you slaves?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Please tell me: That certainly hurt you. It is a very

20 insulting term, isn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Please tell me: This gentleman, Jasenica Dzemal, is he a Muslim?

23 A. Yes. He was a member of the 4th Detachment.

24 Q. I'm asking about his ethnic background. He was a Muslim, wasn't

25 he?

Page 4856

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Page 4857

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And he was addressing women who were mostly Muslims and Croats.

3 There were perhaps few Serbs from mixed marriages, wasn't it?

4 A. He addressed both men and women.

5 Q. Please tell me: On page 4631 of the transcript of the 27th of

6 November, line --

7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.

8 Q. Line 17, 18, [Interpretation] You said the following when asked by

9 the Prosecutor:

10 [In English] "You referred to being known as Slavs -- slaves,

11 probably. When anyone ever asked for help for their personal home, did

12 they ever use the word slaves? Did they ever ask using the word slaves?"

13 And your answer was: "I never heard anyone saying that except Mr. Dzemal

14 Jasenica, nicknamed Andra."

15 [Interpretation] Did you state that?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. So madam, nobody else called you slaves except this gentleman?

18 A. Yes. And I didn't say anything contrary to that either.

19 Q. No. I didn't say that you said anything to the contrary. I

20 simply wanted to point out his ethnic background, because it is very

21 important, in view of the questions put by the Prosecutor.

22 Please tell me: In the transcript of that same day, page 4632,

23 lines 9 to 12, when asked by the Prosecutor -- let me just describe the

24 context. We were talking about the work obligation once again and you

25 were saying how you were forced to clean. When asked by the

Page 4858

1 Prosecutor:

2 Q. Were members of the Serb nationality ever assigned

3 to cleaning duties?

4 A. No, not as far as I know. There was only one little

5 girl from a mixed marriage.

6 [Interpretation] Is that what you stated, madam?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Madam, please tell me whether you know that the work obligation

9 existed in companies and in institutions as well?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know that when we say "institutions", that also pertains to

12 the health centre of Bosanski Samac?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Yesterday, you were shown a document by the Prosecutor. If you

15 remember, there was a document from the health centre in Bosanski Samac.

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the usher please show the witness D22B/2 ter.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Please take a look at the document, madam.

19 A. I am.

20 Q. Please tell me: This document pertains to the health centre of

21 Bosanski Samac? Doesn't that say so in the upper left-hand corner?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it pertains to the data on methods, conditions, and means for

24 paying out salaries in accordance with the established coefficients for

25 the month of June 1992; isn't that so?

Page 4859

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. This document contains names, description of jobs, coefficient,

3 and also the amount of remuneration in dinars for all of the people listed

4 in this document; isn't that so?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... Show to the

8 witness.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, so sorry. Would the usher be so kind to

12 show the witness the documents D22A/2 ter and D22C/2 ter.

13 Would you be so kind first to give the witness the document with

14 "A." Okay. Thank you. And you can leave the document -- the "B"

15 document on the table. Thank you.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, please take a look at these two

17 documents. I don't think you've seen them so far.

18 Have you looked at them?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you agree with me that these are almost identical documents but

21 for different months; isn't that so?

22 A. May and July.

23 Q. I meant identical to the previous document which was for the month

24 of June. Could you compare them, please. I have in mind for you to

25 compare the document D22B/2 ter with the others.

Page 4860

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So we agree that those are basically identical documents but just

3 pertaining to different months, May, June, and July of 1992, isn't it?

4 A. First of all, I don't know if this can be called a document. I

5 see in front of myself a list.

6 Q. All right. Well, I'll accept that it be called a list.

7 A. Well, I really can't say anything about these, because I didn't

8 see them during the war, and they don't look to me as lists which I used

9 to deal with, and they don't look like what I'm used to in terms of

10 payroll lists. So unless I really have to, I wouldn't comment on them.

11 And these people are mostly the employees of the health centre.

12 Q. Madam, I understand that you are not an expert on this, and I

13 don't ask that you confirm authenticity of these documents. All I'm

14 asking is that you read this out, as you did yesterday for the

15 Prosecutor.

16 A. Well, if you want me to read them, there's no problem, but I don't

17 see any need for that, because all of you have the same documents in front

18 of you. But if you insist, I will read. Just tell me which document you

19 want me to read out.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Will the usher please put the document D22A/2 ter on

21 the ELMO.

22 THE INTERPRETER: There is no microphone.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The document is under seal, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The document you're asking for is under seal.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Oh, yes. That's right. Because the previous

Page 4861

1 witness -- I'm sorry. I forgot. Yes.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, would you be so kind and look at the

3 document for the month of May, D22A/2 ter.

4 A. I don't see the number of the document. Would you like me to read

5 this out?

6 Q. Well, I will ask questions, just in order to speed it up. Could

7 you please read what it says in the upper left corner.

8 A. Name of the institution, health centre, Bosanski Samac.

9 Q. Can you please read the title of the document.

10 A. Data on methods, conditions, and means for paying out salaries

11 based on established coefficients for the month of May 1992.

12 Q. Could you please tell me: Under number 1, we have Dr. Mesud

13 Nogic.

14 A. Coordinator, obstetrician and gynaecologist.

15 Q. So coordinator, gynaecologist, and obstetrician is his job

16 description, isn't it?

17 A. Well, based on this, yes. I really don't know what Dr. Mesud

18 Nogic did during the war in this month.

19 Q. Please tell me, madam: If we continue on that same line, we have

20 a coefficient, 1.45, and an amount in dinars.

21 A. Yes, 44.260.00.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, this last amount that you just mentioned, do you

23 suppose that this was his remuneration for the month of May?

24 A. I really can't tell you anything about it, whether that was

25 remuneration or not.

Page 4862

1 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me now: These four names under

2 the names of Mr. Nogic, the physicians?

3 A. Yes. Dr. Ruza Hercinovic, Damir, Dr. Jusufovic, Lirija. Yes,

4 there are four names here.

5 Q. Can you please tell me, madam, based on your knowledge, do you

6 know these people?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Please tell me, madam: Ruza Hercinovic is a Croat, is she?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the other three physicians whose names you read out are

11 Muslim, aren't they?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you please tell me, madam: Have you ever heard that Dr. Nogic

14 or any other physician that you just read out had been arrested during

15 1992 in Samac?

16 A. As far as I know, none of them were arrested, as far as I know.

17 Q. I believe that in your statement you said that on the day when

18 your husband was arrested, on the 11th of August, you went to the doctor.

19 A. Yes. I went to see the doctor listed as number 3 here.

20 Q. Is it Dr. Damir Hercinovic?

21 A. Yes, Damir.

22 Q. Thank you. So as far as you know, they were not forced to work at

23 the health centre as detainees, but if I could call them that, they were

24 simply citizens who had their freedom and continued to work at the same

25 kind of job they had prior to April 17th?

Page 4863

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

2 MR. WEINER: I think the only question he can ask --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

4 MR. WEINER: I'm sorry. The only question he can ask, at first,

5 to start off, to establish a basis, whether or not she is aware if these

6 people, these doctors, were forced to work, and then he's trying to add

7 certain comments that these people weren't forced to work and trying to

8 make some other comments in addition to that. We don't even know what

9 knowledge, if any, she has with regard to doctors, whether doctors were

10 forced to work at the health centre. I think a foundation should be laid.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I posed the question: So far as you

12 know. If this is known by this witness, the witness can say no, I don't

13 know, or something like that. But she answered the question.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Zecevic, you're saying she has already answered

15 the question.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. I have heard that she says yes,

17 but it's not in the transcript. But I can -- I can pose the question

18 again.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because I was looking for it. They didn't have

20 it. But you heard Mr. Weiner's point. Okay. You did explain what the

21 basis of your question is.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour, and I believe it's quite

23 appropriate to pose the question like that. Because I'm not insinuating

24 anything. I'm just asking whether she knows this. And I'm posing the

25 question in this manner just to save time, because I can pose in three

Page 4864

1 questions the same question. I'm just trying to save time.

2 MR. WEINER: He's asking a double question: Were they forced to

3 work or were they citizens who had their freedom and continued to work

4 voluntarily. So if she says yes, does that mean yes, they were forced to

5 work, or yes, they were citizens who maintained their freedom and

6 continued to work voluntarily? The question is -- you know, you can ask

7 the question one question at a time, but first there should be a

8 foundation laid: Does she know whether or not these people were forced to

9 work, does she know them and were they forced to work, and then he can ask

10 the second question.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think, Mr. Zecevic, separate your questions.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I didn't really -- I just tried to save

13 the time.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, please, we have to slice this question

15 into three subquestions. If I understood you properly, you know that they

16 were not detained, they were not detainees.

17 A. I replied by saying yes, I know that they had not been detained.

18 Q. Do you know whether they were forced to work at the health centre?

19 A. No, I don't know about that.

20 Q. As far as you know, in the months of May, June, July, August of

21 1992, did they work in their jobs which they had prior to 17th of April,

22 1992?

23 A. I saw some of them, and I can tell you about those that I saw:

24 Dr. Ruza Brdar [phoen] was not working as a pediatrician. She went to

25 visit the detainees and she worked at the emergency centre.

Page 4865

1 Q. Well, we're talking about the first five individuals on the list.

2 They were physicians. Did they work as physicians during those five

3 months?

4 A. Yes, they were physicians, but I don't know if they worked in

5 their jobs. As you know, they are pediatricians, and --

6 Q. So you mean that there are various specialisations?

7 A. No, that's not what I meant, but thank you.

8 Q. As far as you know, their work after 17th of April, 1992, was it

9 performed within the general work obligation?

10 A. I can only suppose. I cannot claim with certainty. They probably

11 did have the work obligation that we talked about before, the work

12 obligation within their enterprise. It certainly would be preposterous to

13 expect a physician to work as a cleaner, and I cannot claim anything that

14 I have not seen.

15 Q. Thank you. Now that you've mentioned cleaning, sweeping, would

16 you be so kind to turn to the second page of that document and to read out

17 two names next to last on that list, and their jobs.

18 A. Bozic, Mizda and Petrovic Mara, janitors of the health centre,

19 and indeed they were janitors of the health centre.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one is that document? Because she is looking

21 at --

22 MR. ZECEVIC: This is D22A/2 ter.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay, thank you.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Because I was referring to the same document

25 that we were talking about, Your Honours. I'm sorry.

Page 4866

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Madam, please tell me: These two ladies, cleaning ladies or

4 janitors at the health centre, what was their ethnic background, as far as

5 you know?

6 A. I truly don't know.

7 Q. Would you say that their names look like Serbian?

8 A. Well, either Serbian or Croatian. I'm not obsessed by various

9 nationalities.

10 Q. I understand you entirely. I'm not obsessed either.

11 A. Well, we agree on that point.

12 Q. Could you tell me this: The name next to last is Mara Petrovic,

13 and wouldn't you say it's a typical Serbian last name?

14 A. Well, let us continue. I heard, you know, the name Mara exists

15 both in Croatian and Serbian communities. So I can tell you with

16 certainty when the name is a Muslim name.

17 Q. Thank you. Let us go back to the first page of that same

18 document, D22A/2 ter. Yesterday, when you talked to the Prosecutor about

19 a document identified with the same number but with the letter "B," you

20 could not explain what the column identified with PL, full stop, RAS full

21 stop, means.

22 A. Well, I cannot tell you what it means today either.

23 Q. Could we agree that this could mean a salary category?

24 A. Well, it could mean that. It's a bit clearer to me, because

25 there are some numbers here, and yesterday's document did not contain any

Page 4867

1 numbers at all.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Zecevic --

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: I keep wondering when you are really going into

5 details with these documents which the witness never saw, she didn't work

6 with these documents, and you're trying to suggest to her what these

7 abbreviations might mean.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, these documents, in my opinion, are

9 very important. First of all, the -- and the --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: And the witness appears to be competent to

12 understand these documents, although she never saw them before.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but when she says that she doesn't know what an

14 abbreviation means, so you can't suggest to her.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: No. I was just asking whether she would agree with

16 me that it might be this abbreviation of this, and she says yes. I'm

17 trying to remind the witness, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: I hope she doesn't get misled.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, you have my word, she was not misled

20 in this.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. In the upper right-hand corner, do you see a stamp?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is the stamp familiar to you?

Page 4868

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Page 4869

1 A. No.

2 Q. Does it resemble a stamp from the SDK, the government auditing

3 agency?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you. Will you now, but very briefly, please, explain for

6 the Trial Chamber what the SDK is, but very briefly.

7 A. It's the service of payment -- for payment operations which

8 affixes its stamp on payment orders which serves to transfer money from

9 one giro account to another giro account, from one user of funds to another

10 user. The SDK, however, never affixed their stamp to a payroll. They did

11 on payment orders, yes.

12 Q. I completely agree with you. Would you tell me, just very

13 briefly, what the SDK was as opposed to the SPP in the former Yugoslavia,

14 the SDK being the government auditing agency and the SPP being the payment

15 transaction service?

16 A. Well, if you want -- if you know what it is, then you can explain

17 it. If I -- if you didn't know, then I would understand why I needed to

18 explain it to you. You know that the service for payment operations is

19 the service through which all payments are carried out. I don't know what

20 other explanation you need.

21 Q. Let me rephrase my question, then. Is it true that in the former

22 Yugoslavia, all payment transactions went through that service and not

23 through banks?

24 A. Even to this day, payment transactions go -- went until recently

25 through these services, the SDK and the SPP, rather than banks, and

Page 4870

1 payments only since recently go through banks. But I'm not an expert.

2 Q. When you mean -- when you say "in this state," you mean in the

3 Republika Srpska?

4 A. I mean the Republika Srpska as well, but I mean mainly the

5 Republic of Bosnia. I'm sorry I have to waste everybody's time here.

6 Because you know what I mean. Bosnia and the Federation, those are not

7 states. The Republika Srpska and the Federation constitute the state

8 together.

9 Q. All right, madam. Just one more question about this. So work

10 organisations or enterprises would deliver their payment orders to the

11 payment transaction service for various payments, including payrolls, and

12 these were approved and implemented, so these payment orders were effected

13 on behalf of enterprises?

14 A. Do you want me to explain how it went and then you can clarify

15 it? You make a calculation of all the salaries. You sum up gross

16 salaries and net salaries. Gross salaries include various contributions

17 for health insurance, education, culture, et cetera. You deduct these,

18 and for each of these items you make an order that the gross net -- you

19 make these deductions and then you make an order to transfer these funds

20 to the relevant organisations for education, health, et cetera. And then,

21 as far as net salaries are concerned, they are paid out to workers

22 according to a list. They have to sign against their name. If some

23 workers have their own bank accounts, the money is paid by a payment order

24 to this bank account. It makes absolutely no sense that the SDK should

25 affix a stamp on a list like this. Why, then, is there no such stamp on

Page 4871

1 the other lists we have here? You want me to interpret financial matters

2 here. If you want me to do that, you will have to pay me as an expert.

3 If you ask my personal opinion, what we have here is not a payroll.

4 Q. Madam, let me say just one thing. I wasn't claiming that this is

5 a payroll. Even the title itself says "data," not payroll?

6 A. Sir, I'll read it once again. Data on the mode, conditions, and

7 funds for the payment of salaries according to established coefficient for

8 the month of May. We cannot see what the mode is, we cannot see what the

9 conditions are for these calculations, we cannot see what kind of funds

10 these are. It may be cash, it may be in the form of goods, so it's a

11 payroll of sorts.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness shouldn't be bothered with all

13 this, like I've said before.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Neither are we. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: These are not --

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: These are not her documents.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: I know these are not her documents. I'm just trying

19 to explain to this Honourable Trial Chamber what this document contains,

20 but -- anyhow, I will withdraw that. Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think you can do that with the authors of

22 the documents.

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me -- excuse me, Mr. Zecevic. I wonder

24 whether either yourself or the witness could I think assist the Chamber by

25 giving us some indication, if possible, as to who or whom decided which

Page 4872

1 persons should show up to the commune each day and be assigned to go off

2 to fields or clean, what have you, on the one hand; and on the other hand,

3 which people should remain in the institutional businesses or set-ups

4 where they worked on a regular basis. How was this decided?

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Shall I ask the witness, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes, if you would.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Madam, you have heard this last question. You have understood it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Will you then be so kind as to answer: Who decided things like

11 who was going to do work obligation?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. And do you happen to know who decided that certain individuals

14 would be working in enterprises or institutions?

15 A. I don't know.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I believe you're not satisfied, of

17 course, but would you like me to clarify that or ...

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Not necessarily right now, but I think it's

19 something that at some stage it would be very important for us to be

20 informed on.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course. Of course.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand that. Thank you.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Just one more question regarding these

25 documents.

Page 4873

1 THE INTERPRETER: We've lost counsel's microphone.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.

4 Q. [Interpretation] You said yesterday that the documents don't look

5 authentic because they were not written in Cyrillic script. But I

6 understand they were typed in a Latinic -- on a Latinic typewriter.

7 A. I don't think I was referring to a typed document. I think there

8 was a mixture of both on the document that I was looking at, but I'm a

9 fairly well educated woman. I understand both scripts.

10 Q. I know. Tell me, madam: While you were working at this

11 self-interest community, Cyrillic typewriters were a rarity, weren't they?

12 A. I didn't have one, that's for sure. I don't know whether they

13 were a rarity.

14 Q. Did anyone own a Cyrillic typewriter at your employer's

15 organisation?

16 A. No, neither in the self-interest community where I worked before

17 or in my later employer's organisation, we didn't have such a typewriter.

18 Q. Will you take now document 22C ter -- /2 ter, the list for July.

19 It is written in Cyrillic, isn't it?

20 A. Yes. Again, there is something strange. The column "total" is

21 written in the Latinic script. That's funny.

22 Q. Madam, against the name of Mesud Nogic --

23 A. Let me find it. Here he is, number 1.

24 Q. Against the names of the other doctors, the number of working days

25 is indicated.

Page 4874

1 A. Yes, for July.

2 Q. July 1992; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, July.

4 Q. Under number 5, Dr. Sladjana Mihaljcic.

5 A. I don't see the number, but I can count, yes. I can see her.

6 Q. Tell me, madam: If you look at her coefficient and the amount of

7 her remuneration in dinars, did it differ in any way from that of her

8 colleagues?

9 A. The amounts all look the same, apart from Dr. Mesud Nogic. I

10 don't know really. If you ask me --

11 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ...

13 Q. [Interpretation] Just one more thing regarding this work

14 obligation and we'll be finished. When you were testifying yesterday, on

15 the 28th of November, page 11 of the unofficial transcript, lines 2 to 5,

16 in response to a question by the Prosecutor regarding the period after the

17 11th of August, you replied as follows:.

18 Q. Okay. Now, over the next two days, did you return

19 to the forced labour or to required labour?

20 A. No. Messengers came, and I was already -- I had

21 already gone round a bend and I didn't care. I was telling them: "You

22 can do whatever you want with me. You can kill me. My husband has

23 already been taken away. I'm not going to do any work."

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Did this mean that you could just as well not go

Page 4875

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Page 4876

1 to your work obligation?

2 A. Well, once I didn't go, then they came for me and forced me to go,

3 but that's probably why I was sent to Zasavica, on the other hand.

4 Q. You responded to a question by one of my colleagues, on page 25,

5 line 8. The question was: "Did you go to do your work obligation?" And

6 you said, "I stopped after the 11th of August because I had to take care

7 of my husband."

8 A. You mean that I -- the reason why I didn't go? Well, as a matter

9 of fact, I didn't go only for a couple of days, because I was taking care

10 of my husband. Yes, that's true.

11 Q. Thank you. When you were testifying yesterday, you said that you

12 didn't work all the time, every day, as part of your work obligation. You

13 would go there and some people would be called out, some wouldn't.

14 A. Yes. That's the way it happened. After 15 days you wouldn't be

15 called out once.

16 Q. And you were required to gather outside at the local commune

17 between 7.00 and 8.00; is that right?

18 A. Outside the local commune building.

19 Q. That's what I said: Outside. You said your son didn't start with

20 his work obligation right away [redacted]

21 [redacted].

22 A. My son had his work obligation assignment on his own -- at his own

23 workplace. [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]. That was his normal job. That was my son's employer.

Page 4877

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]. That's how it goes.

3 Q. I will try to rephrase, to reformulate what you've just told me,

4 and you tell me if that's correct. [redacted]

5 [redacted]?

6 A. I know it was sometime in May, but whether it was the 10th or the

7 15th, I don't know. It's not an important date at all.

8 Q. Absolutely. After that, he worked in a labour brigade. You said

9 that he went to milk cows first, then to dig trenches, and had other work

10 assignments. Is that true?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us: Until the August of 1992, did your son spend

13 around 30 days with that labour brigade? Is it approximately that figure?

14 A. Maybe he had two or three days off.

15 Q. In response to a Prosecutor's question, you said that as far as

16 you knew, that work obligation was not something for which you received

17 pay.

18 A. That's correct. No one in my family received any pay for work

19 duty.

20 Q. [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]. While he was on his work duty [redacted]

23 [redacted], did he receive a salary?

24 A. [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4878

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]. During the first days, he

3 already lost all that he had, and in -- and even the SDK wasn't

4 functioning.

5 Q. But did he promise to pay all his employees once things get back

6 to normal?

7 A. No. I'm sorry. I didn't know it would come to this, but I would

8 have brought my son, his labour booklet or card, where the last entry is

9 dated the 31st of March, 1992.

10 Q. To the best of your knowledge, madam, the doctors whose names

11 you've just read on those three documents, did they receive salaries for

12 their work?

13 A. You are asking too much. I saw Dr. Damir on one occasion, Dr.

14 Mira -- Ruza, sorry. I didn't ask whether they were being paid.

15 MR. WEINER: Objection. Speculation to ask her whether these

16 three doctors that she had seen or for treatment were being paid. He can

17 ask her if they were paid for treatment, or something along those lines,

18 but whether they were getting paid by the state is outside of her

19 knowledge.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I posed the question: Do you know, to

21 the best of your knowledge, whether these doctors received their

22 salaries. Nothing else.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but even if you ask "do you know," is it normal

24 for people to go telling other people their salaries?

25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I was asking the witness

Page 4879

1 only just about her knowledge. She answered: I don't know. And that was

2 it.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but it's a waste of time to ask such questions.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, when we receive the answer, that is the only

5 time when we know whether we wasted the time or not, with all due respect,

6 Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Zecevic, that's not the way you conduct your

8 cross-examination.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honour. I'm sorry, but I'm

10 really trying my best.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: It's a waste of time to ask such a question from a

12 witness.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I will --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: I will insist that it was a waste of time, all

15 right?

16 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours. Thank you very much.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Let us move to another topic. Your husband was

18 arrested on the 11th of August, 1992, wasn't he?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On that day, around 7.00 p.m., as you've stated here, you went to

21 see Milan Simic; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you saw him outside, and he told you to come back in the

24 morning; is that right?

25 A. Yes, and he gave me a lift home.

Page 4880

1 Q. The next day when you came to see him in the morning, he took you

2 to his office, and that's where you sat down; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And he left the office to go and see what the problem was with

5 your husband; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said that on that occasion he spoke to Savo Cancarevic.

8 A. I said that he ran into Savo Cancarevic at the entrance to the

9 assembly and that both of them went back to his office.

10 Q. Savo Cancarevic was then the commander of the police, and he still

11 is; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The chief of police then was Stevo Todorovic; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did I understand correctly when you said that having spoken to

16 Savo Cancarevic, Milan came to the office where you were sitting and told

17 you that -- in the transcript of the 28th November, page 12, unofficial

18 transcript, line 21:

19 [In English] "He told me: [redacted], the proceedings are under

20 way, to which I replied: I know, Milan, that proceedings are under way.

21 I didn't come here to hear that, sweetheart. [redacted]

22 [redacted]. And that is how we parted. He was looking down at his

23 feet, and I left in tears."

24 A. Yes. I just want to make one correction. He and Mr. Cancarevic

25 were not talking. They just ran into each other at the door. Milan came

Page 4881

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Page 4882

1 right to the door and Savo was coming into the building of the

2 municipality, so they went together to his office, and we were there

3 together for that short while. Maybe they had greeted each other, maybe

4 they exchanged a couple of words. I didn't see that. I only saw Mr.

5 Milan Simic turning away from the door and Mr. Cancarevic coming up to the

6 office.

7 Q. [Interpretation] If I understood you correctly, Savo Cancarevic

8 was together with Milan Simic in the office when Milan was telling you

9 that the proceedings were under way.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did Savo Cancarevic confirm that statement, since he was commander

12 of the police, he was informed, wasn't he?

13 A. I don't remember if he greeted me on that day, but I would have

14 remembered if he had said anything else. He didn't address me at all. He

15 probably said hello. He is a well-mannered man.

16 Q. When you said that Milan Simic was looking down, can you tell us

17 what you think that meant, to the best of your ability? If you don't

18 know, tell us that.

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Ma'am, after seeing Milan Simic, and after he told you that

21 proceedings were under way, and after the way you parted, you went to see

22 some other people, like Simo Bozic, for instance?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: It's 1700 hours, Counsel.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours.

Page 4883

1 JUDGE MUMBA: We will rise and the proceedings will continue

2 tomorrow morning at 0930 hours.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.01 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Friday, the 30th day of

5 November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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