1 Friday, 7 December 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The accused Simic not present]

6 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I understand counsel for Mr. Milan Simic has a

12 submission to make. Yes.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours. I

14 was just informed that my client hasn't come and that he is not feeling

15 well, and I established a telephone connection with him just a few minutes

16 ago and he waived his right to be present today. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. So we can proceed, Mr. di Fazio. Oh,

18 it's Mr. Weiner. Yes.

19 MR. WEINER: Good morning. Just very briefly. I just want to

20 quickly address three issues on the amendments and let you know where the

21 Prosecution is heading.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

23 MR. WEINER: With regard to the date relating to Simo Zaric, the

24 final date of December 31st, 1992, as opposed to at least two other

25 defendants having their final date of December 31st, 1993, we've spoken

1 to -- we've researched the issue, we've even talked to Defence counsel,

2 and apparently that was part of an agreement between Defence counsel and

3 Prosecution some years ago, based on Mr. Zaric's role, and they decided to

4 use the December 31st, 1992 date. So we are going to stay with the date

5 which was part of discussions between Mr. Pisarevic and Prosecutor Nancy

6 Paterson some years ago.

7 With regard to the second issue that was raised yesterday, the use

8 of the terms "wanton" and "excessive," we examined the

9 Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian, or the indictments in Bosnian and

10 Serbo-Croatian, and we noticed that in those indictments Articles --

11 paragraphs 14(e), 15(f), 17(e) and 18(f), they don't use the terms either

12 "wanton" or "excessive," unlike the English versions.

13 What we would like to do today, to make this much easier, is

14 provide the language, potential language that we could amend the

15 paragraphs to, to at least the Court today, let it be translated, if you

16 want it to call it the draft language, let it be translated into B/C/S,

17 let it be shown by counsel, at least today, to the defendants before all

18 counsel leave on holiday, and by Monday we will make a decision. Since

19 the treaties or the conventions use different terminology - I believe

20 grave breaches does not use the term "wanton" -- grave breaches does use

21 the term "wanton," some of the other treaties or conventions do not use

22 the term "wanton," we would like to run this by our appellate decision,

23 because this is an issue for not only our case, but other cases within the

24 Tribunal, and come to some agreement as to where we would be heading.

25 So what we would like to do, we thought, to facilitate this,

1 provide all the language to the Registry today, let them get it

2 translated, or we could even translate the words "wanton" and "excessive,"

3 provide it in draft form, let counsel discuss it with their clients, and

4 by Monday we would have a decision. That way they can still respond to

5 it, in any manner that they would like, on Tuesday or Wednesday. But we

6 would -- that way we could facilitate and keep this moving as opposed to

7 making our filing on Monday and then they would have to show it to their

8 clients, and that would further delay this hearing.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: So that discussion that you're going to have with

10 the Defence counsel is to make them understand what the language of our

11 amendment will include --

12 MR. WEINER: Yes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: -- in those paragraphs which you are asking to be

14 part of the indictment?

15 MR. WEINER: Yes. What we'll do is we'll give them the potential

16 language, and if we decide to make that change on Monday, they will at

17 least have had the opportunity today to notify their clients and discuss

18 it with their clients.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I just want to make it clear that while the

20 international instruments may have the language that they have on those

21 instruments, the interpretation is what the Prosecutor would like to make,

22 according to the evidence that they have, perhaps, maybe, because this use

23 of the word "wanton," for instance, or "excessive destruction," it depends

24 on the type of evidence you have.

25 All right, the Trial Chamber will leave that to the parties to

1 deal with but making sure that it doesn't encroach upon the time given to

2 the Defence counsel to file their written submissions.

3 MR. WEINER: That's why we want to get it to them today so -- we

4 do not delay this and they can just start looking at that, consider it,

5 review it and work on their submissions immediately.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

7 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. di Fazio, we'll continue with the witness

9 who is still on -- under solemn declaration.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS M [Resumed]

12 Examined by Mr. di Fazio: [Continued]

13 Q. Witness, I won't trouble you with documents too much today bearing

14 in mind the recent difficulties you've had with your eyes.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Is everything fine with the accused? Can they

16 understand the interpretation? All right. Yeah, we can proceed.

17 MR. DI FAZIO:

18 Q. Witness, I want to ask you about some aspects of life for

19 civilians who were not incarcerated in Bosanski Samac in the period of

20 time between April and August and September of 1992. You have briefly

21 mentioned curfews. Were curfews or was a curfew established in Bosanski

22 Samac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. From when was it imposed?

25 A. From the beginning of the war, of war events in the municipality

1 of Bosanski Samac.

2 Q. Can you remember how you became aware of it, the existence of the

3 curfew?

4 A. Through the media, Radio Samac, I mean.

5 Q. Did the curfew apply to all citizens?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was a reason ever given for the imposition of a curfew?

8 A. As far as I know, no.

9 Q. Did you ever see anyone or any groups of people not obeying the

10 curfew?

11 A. No.

12 Q. In the time that you were in Bosanski Samac prior to your arrest,

13 was there any prohibition against the gathering of people into groups?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who did that apply to, what people did that apply to?

16 A. To Muslims and Croats.

17 Q. How did you find out about that prohibition against the gathering

18 into groups of Muslims and Croats?

19 A. There were posters all over the town.

20 Q. And thinking back now, bearing in mind the events of the night of

21 the 16th and 17th of April, about how much longer after that, that night,

22 did that prohibition against the gathering into groups start?

23 A. Maybe some ten days after that.

24 Q. Did you take care to avoid congregating with Muslims or Croats

25 into -- in groups?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Following the events of the nights of the 16th and 17th of April,

3 was there any requirement as to dress that how you had to -- dress when

4 you were walking around the town?

5 A. Apart from the white rag that we had to have on our left arms,

6 there were no other requirements.

7 Q. I'm interested in the white rag. Can you please explain to the

8 Chamber what precisely that requirement was and who it applied to?

9 A. It was a requirement that was designed to distinguish the non-Serb

10 population from the Serb population so it applied to Muslims and Croats.

11 Q. Again, how did you become aware of that requirement?

12 A. You mean the requirement to put this kind of insignia, so to

13 speak? I saw a [redacted], Djoko Pisarevic, [redacted]

14 , he was standing outside my window and he told me that we were all to

15 put the white rags.

16 Q. At the time that he explained that, did he say anything about it

17 applying to Croats or Muslims?

18 A. No, he did not, but he, himself, did not wear this white rag

19 because he was a Serb.

20 Q. Following you becoming aware of the requirement to wear the white

21 rag, did you actually see people about the town wearing such a white rag

22 or ribbon or whatever it was?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The people that you saw wearing the white rag and white ribbon,

25 what ethnic group did they belong to?

1 A. Muslims and Croats.

2 Q. I want to turn now to your arrest, please. Can you just remind

3 the Chamber of when you were arrested. If you can't remember the date,

4 try and give us a fix on which month it was in which you were arrested.

5 A. It was in September 1992.

6 Q. Had you been to perform labour duties prior to your arrest?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell us how it was that you came to be arrested, what happened at

9 the actual time of your arrest?

10 A. I did not go to work on that day. I was ill and I was unable to

11 go to work. The next day, the police came to get me.

12 Q. Who was it who came to get you?

13 A. Djoko Maslic and Pero Krstanovic, the Serb police officers.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, would Your Honours please bear with me. I

15 just need to check something.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. DI FAZIO:

18 Q. You mentioned a gentleman named Krstanovic the other day when you

19 were giving evidence in respect of the events relating to the mosque.

20 What I want to know is whether that person that you mentioned the other

21 day is the same person who came to arrest you.

22 A. No, that is not the same person. The person that is connected

23 with the mosque incident is Perica, and I spoke about Pero Krstanovic in

24 relation to the events in Odzak.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Baen.

1 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, just in light of everything that's pending

2 before the Court right now, we respectfully request that the Prosecution

3 not seek to elicit anything about the mosque or any religious property.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Those instructions were given to the Prosecution

5 yesterday.

6 MS. BAEN: He just mentioned it there.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I can allay the fears of the Defence. I'm not

8 interested in the mosque at all, I'm just making sure that the Chamber --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: The difference of the persons, and I'm sure

10 reasonableness would just show that it's just in relation to explaining

11 that the two people are different.

12 MS. BAEN: Just for the purposes of the record, we just object

13 what he to what he asked in line 15, page 7. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 MR. DI FAZIO:

15 Q. Now, you told us that those two gentlemen came to arrest you and

16 where were you taken?

17 A. To the police station in Samac.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Baen, I just want to -- you have said that you

19 object to the answer elicited in line -- the question in line 14.

20 MS. BAEN: Yes, Your Honour, 15, line 15. Well, it's lines 14 and

21 15, but the language relating to the mosque is in line 15.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but it doesn't mean anything, just to say

23 "relating to the mosque."

24 MS. BAEN: He said -- he's asking him about the events we talked

25 about earlier in your testimony relating to the mosque. Your Honour, I'm

1 not trying to make a big deal here I'm just trying to be careful for the

2 purposes of record until this issue of the amended indictment is

3 resolved. That's all, Your Honour. I'm just trying to make the record

4 clear.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

6 MR. DI FAZIO:

7 Q. How long did you stay in the SUP?

8 A. Until the 27th of November, 1992.

9 Q. Thank you. I would like to now ask you some questions about the

10 period of time which you spent in the SUP up until late November 1992.

11 In that period of time, were you beaten whilst inside the SUP?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So you were in the SUP for over two months, I think. Can you give

14 the Chamber an idea of how often you personally were beaten whilst you

15 were in custody?

16 A. Every two or three days, depending on the mood of the Serb police

17 officers. If they lost at cards, they would come there drunk and they

18 would beat us. So they beat us quite often.

19 Q. Just one further matter. You say that you were beaten by the Serb

20 police officers. Were these men locals or were they from elsewhere in the

21 former Yugoslavia?

22 A. There were people from the areas of former Yugoslavia, but the

23 people who beat us more frequently were the locals.

24 Q. In the period of time in which you stayed in the SUP, were you

25 kept in the one location within the SUP or were you moved around from

1 place to place?

2 A. I was kept in one and the same location.

3 Q. With the permission of the Trial Chamber, and if it's okay with

4 you, I would like you to look, very, very briefly, at one photograph.

5 That's all that I want to do, and I won't dwell upon that. Perhaps,

6 Witness, you could tell us if that would hurt your eyes to do that. Are

7 you up to, very briefly, looking at a photograph?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps you can deal with that maybe next year --

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: -- after a long break.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

13 Q. I won't trouble you with that at the moment, Witness.

14 Tell us this: The room in which you were kept in the SUP, did you

15 have a view out into the street, the street that runs between the SUP and

16 the TO?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How many people were kept in that room with you in the SUP?

19 A. The number would change quite often: 7, 8, 11. That was the

20 biggest number.

21 Q. What sort of food were you provided with?

22 A. A piece of bread with some jam spread on it, or perhaps some lard,

23 and that would last us 24 hours.

24 Q. Can you tell the Chamber how often you received a meal per day? I

25 want to know what you had --

1 A. Just once.

2 Q. Were you hungry in the time that you were in the SUP?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Just returning briefly to the numbers who were incarcerated with

5 you in that room, you said the numbers fluctuated between 7 and 11. What

6 sort of space did you have in the room? And I suppose in telling us, you

7 ought to give us an idea of the proportions of the room in which 7 to 11

8 men were kept.

9 A. Four by three. That's 12 square metres.

10 Q. Was there enough room for you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What about sleeping conditions? Were you provided with anything

13 to sleep on, anything to cover yourself and keep yourself warm?

14 A. No. We slept on the floor.

15 Q. Can you tell the Chamber if it was safe for you to go to the

16 lavatory when you needed to when you were in the --

17 A. No.

18 Q. Tell the Chamber why that was so.

19 A. Because very often we were beaten in the toilets, so we were

20 afraid to go.

21 Q. What was the age of the people who were incarcerated along with

22 you in that room?

23 A. There were quite a few elderly people aged between 60 and 65. I

24 was about the youngest person there.

25 Q. Did any of them provide you, that is, your fellow prisoners,

1 provide you with any explanation as to why they had been arrested?

2 A. Marko Saric [Realtime transcript read in error "Sadic"], from

3 Hasici, age 65, was arrested because they had established in some way or

4 another that he was an Ustasha scout, and he had remained in his village,

5 and that's where they found him.

6 Q. In the time that you were in the SUP, incarcerated there, were you

7 ever interviewed by any official, judge or magistrate or police officer?

8 A. No, I was.

9 Q. Who interviewed you?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry. Before you proceed, can we just have

11 clarification to the previous answer. When he says, in reference to Hasic

12 [phoen], who was aged 65, they had established in some way or another that

13 he was who, the "they"?

14 MR. DI FAZIO:

15 Q. Perhaps you can give us some further information, if you have it,

16 regarding Mr. Marko Saric from Hasici. The Tribunal wants to

17 know - sorry - the Chamber wants to know who it was that had established

18 that he was an Ustasha scout. Can you tell us?

19 A. It was the policeman who established that, led by investigator

20 Milos Savic.

21 Q. Did this gentleman, Mr. Marko Saric [Realtime transcript read in

22 error "Savic"], ever say anything to you that indicated whether or not he

23 accepted that he was an Ustasha scout? In other words, did he say

24 something to show that he was in fact an Ustasha scout, or did he deny it

25 or comment upon it?

1 A. When Hasici fell, he hid in his own house, together with Pavo

2 Dragicevic, aged 67. Those are all the men who didn't want to leave their

3 homes. So in a raid that followed, the Serb police arrested them and

4 brought them to the police station, where they were kept in the same room

5 with me. He never mentioned anything except that he had indeed had a

6 rifle. But they were old men. They were not fit for that kind of thing.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, for the purposes of the clarification

9 on the record, speaking about this event, we have several versions of the

10 family name of this person from the village of Hasici. For example, page

11 12, line 17, it mentioned that it's Marko Savic, and then on the other

12 occasions it's Marko Sadic. But I believe that it's obviously complicated

13 for the speakers not knowing our language. The witness said Marko Saric,

14 S-a-r-i-c, so finally we have four versions. So please, if you may.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the correct name of this old man aged

16 about 65 detained in the same room with Witness M.

17 MR. DI FAZIO:

18 Q. Witness, you've been referring to a gentleman whose first name is

19 Marko just recently in your evidence. Can you give us a clear indication

20 of what you understand his surname to be?

21 A. Marko Saric, S-a-r-i-c.

22 Q. Yes. Now, I was going to ask you about your own interview. I

23 think you said that you were interviewed yourself, and I don't want to

24 misquote you but I think you also said that it was Mr. Milos Savic who

25 interviewed you; is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. About how long after you were first arrested were you interviewed

3 and where were you interviewed?

4 A. This interview took place on the upper floor of the police station

5 and it was maybe ten days after I was arrested.

6 Q. Who was present when you were interviewed apart from yourself and

7 Mr. Savic or was that all, were there only two persons in the room during

8 the course of the interview?

9 A. There was another policeman whose name I don't know.

10 Q. By this stage, had you been beaten?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the beatings that you had received up until this point, the

13 point that you were interviewed, had instruments been used by those who

14 were beating you?

15 A. The police truncheon was often used plus punching and kicking.

16 They usually punched us and kicked us and sometimes used the truncheon.

17 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what appearance you would have presented

18 to Mr. Milos Savic at the time that you were interviewed by him, and I'm

19 referring to, in particular, any sign of injury?

20 A. Yes, I had injuries to my face, wounds. I don't even know what to

21 call them properly, bleeding wounds. Blood had just stopped flowing

22 before I went to see him to be interviewed, the day before, actually.

23 Q. Were your clothes encrusted with blood?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, in the course of the interview with Mr. Savic, was it ever

1 explained to you what it was that you were accused of doing or suspected

2 of doing or were you ever provided with a reason as to why you had been

3 arrested?

4 A. Mr. Milos Savic just showed me a piece of paper with my name and

5 surname written on it indicating that I was a scout. I didn't see or

6 wasn't shown anything else.

7 Q. And the fact of you being a scout and your name being on this

8 piece of paper, was that the central issue in which he was interested in?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. di Fazio, will you be asking the witness what

11 exactly a scout was supposed to have done?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll try and clarify that.

13 Q. You heard Her Honour's question. Can you tell us, did they ever

14 actually say to you or explain to you what a scout was and what precisely

15 you had been doing as a scout to warrant this arrest?

16 A. That is not quite clear to me to this day what I was supposed to

17 do, what I could have done, and what sort of task I could have had.

18 JUDGE SINGH: Just a clarification there. You earlier said that

19 Marko Saric was said to be a Ustasha scout. What about yourself? When

20 you saw that piece of paper, did it describe what sort of a scout you

21 were; a Croatian scout, a Ustasha scout, or just a scout?

22 A. I only saw that I was a reserve scout, and weighing 135 kilos that

23 I weighed at the time, I don't know what kind of scout I would have made.

24 JUDGE SINGH: And by "reserve," you understood it to mean?

25 A. I'm telling you it's not clear to me to this day this definition

1 of reserve scout.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I think we are now at the level of

4 so-called spirit of language. My understanding of term scout is that this

5 activity pertained to younger children.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. You are not going to give evidence.

7 The witness is the one explaining that he is the one who was told that he

8 was a scout.

9 MR. PANTELIC: I agree absolutely, but just to clarification,

10 whether the use of term scout is using in the military notion, as a

11 military notion. I don't know. I'm not familiar with this --

12 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pantelic, if you will remember your civil war in

13 America, the army had army scouts.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't think anyone is under any illusion that we

15 are talking about boy scouts here.

16 MR. PANTELIC: That was my suspicion, you know, but maybe in terms

17 of the translations, if you are referring to army scout, that's more

18 precise, yes. Thank you.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: But that is a matter for the Prosecution to deal

20 with and the witness to explain if he understood anything by it.

21 MR. DI FAZIO:

22 Q. Was it ever explained to you who you were a scout for, for which

23 group or organisation or ...

24 A. Well, that's very simple. They said I was a scout of Alija's,

25 meaning Alija the President.

1 Q. Were you ever provided with any detail as to the sort of scouting

2 activities that you had apparently engaged in? Did Mr. Milos Savic ever

3 say to you you were scouting here or there and carrying a weapon when you

4 were doing so, that sort of detail that would enlighten you, give you an

5 idea of what it was you were supposed to have done as a scout?

6 A. Mr. Milos Savic just kept holding his truncheon and beating it

7 against the desk and telling me, "Come on, talk." And I never got any

8 explanation what kind of scout I was supposed to be.

9 Q. Thank you. I would like you to answer my next question, if you

10 may, with just a yes or a no. Do you know a gentleman named Stevo

11 Arandjic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Think back. Was his name ever mentioned during the course of this

14 interview? I'm talking about the interview or interrogation with Milos

15 Savic. That's all I'm talking about.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you ever seek any explanation as to why you should be arrested

18 in September for carrying out scouting activities?

19 A. When I was arrested, I was told that I was being taken for an

20 interview, but I never got an explanation as to why I had been arrested in

21 the first place.

22 Q. Did Mr. Savic ever give you an explanation of when it was that you

23 had conducted these scouting activities, alleged scouting activities? For

24 instance, did he say it was in April, before the takeover or that you had

25 been engaged in scouting activities at night after you'd finished your

1 labour duties, anything like that as to give you an idea of when it was

2 that you were supposed to have done this?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Following the interview, did you sign any statement or put your

5 signature on any piece of paper?

6 A. Not as far as I remember.

7 Q. I want to return now to the conditions that you endured in the

8 SUP. In the period of time that you were incarcerated there, did any of

9 the prisoners in your room have their teeth pulled out?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you, yourself, undergo that experience?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who pulled your teeth out, how did they do it, and when did they

14 do it?

15 A. Slavko Trifunovic, nicknamed accordionist, used to pull people's

16 teeth out. He would put on a white doctor's coat and a dentist's pliers.

17 He pretended he was a dentist. It was a sort of play acting, and he would

18 pull people's teeth out.

19 Q. Apart from this torture that he engaged in, did he have some sort

20 of official role at the SUP, for example, did he -- was a policeman there

21 or a guard?

22 A. He was a policeman.

23 Q. A local policeman, that is, someone from the -- in the area of

24 Bosanski Samac or the municipality?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. How many of your teeth were pulled out?

2 A. Two.

3 Q. Tell the Chamber exactly how it transpired, how it started, what

4 happened when he came into the room, and in as much detail as you can

5 recall.

6 A. When he would come into the room, we all had to get up, stand at

7 attention, and bend. First, he would start hitting us with a truncheon to

8 calm us down, and then he would start pulling our teeth. He wasn't

9 picky. He didn't spare anyone. He didn't choose young or old people, in

10 particular. He would do it to everyone.

11 Q. Did you have to be held down or did others hold you as he did

12 this? How did he -- I just don't understand how he actually executed the

13 motion.

14 A. You weren't allowed to move. Nobody held me.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I want to ask the witness

16 about a number of matters now that involve allegations of sexual

17 mistreatment. It might be appropriate, I think, to protect any names of

18 any victims and for us to go into private session.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we can go into private session.

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24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we are now in open session.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. I would like you to comment upon how loud the yells and screams

3 were. Can you give us an idea?

4 A. When they beat a person, the rest of us had to sing in order for

5 the screams not to be heard and for the other sounds not to be heard.

6 Q. Were there ever occasions when you weren't singing and men were

7 yelling and screaming?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, on those occasions, can you tell us how loud those yells and

10 screams were?

11 A. I don't know how loud it was on the outside, but as for us in the

12 room, we could hear very loud screams, moans, cries.

13 Q. What sort of songs were you forced to sing?

14 A. Chetnik songs.

15 Q. Were you ever required to stand for long periods?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How did that affect the older men?

18 A. They would fall down. They just couldn't take it.

19 Q. What sort of period of time are we talking about when you say that

20 men were forced to stand?

21 A. It would depend. At one point they would take pity on us, but on

22 some occasions we would have to stand for maybe four or five hours.

23 Q. Thus far, you've described only men being incarcerated in the SUP,

24 can you tell us if any women were?

25 A. There were two women held upstairs.

1 Q. Do you know who they were?

2 A. I know the full name of one of them and as for the other, I know

3 that she worked at the department store. The first one is Bejka

4 Barjaktarevic. She was in her 50s. According to their papers, she was a

5 sniper. The other woman was from Gradacac. She worked in the Bosanski

6 Samac department store, and apparently or allegedly she had picked up some

7 goods in Samac and tried to escape.

8 Q. What was the ethnic background of these women as far as you were

9 aware?

10 A. Both of them were Muslim.

11 Q. How do you know that the allegation against one of them was that

12 she was a sniper?

13 A. Because Milos Savic told me that they knew everything, and he said

14 that they had caught Bejka who was a sniper.

15 Q. How old was this woman?

16 A. Around 50 years of age. I don't know exactly, but that would be

17 it.

18 Q. Do you have any idea if they were mistreated in any way or is it

19 the case that you don't know?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Were you eventually transferred away from the SUP in late

22 November?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where were you taken?

25 A. To the camp in Batkovici near Bijeljina.

1 Q. How many of you went from Bosanski Samac to Batkovici?

2 A. Around 180.

3 Q. Were these all Bosanski Samac men or at least from the

4 municipality of Bosanski Samac?

5 A. These were people from the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

6 Q. Can you tell the Chamber their ethnic background?

7 A. They were Muslims and Croats.

8 Q. How long did you end up remaining in Batkovici?

9 A. In June 1994, I was exchanged.

10 Q. What -- where were you kept in Batkovici, what sort of place was

11 it?

12 A. There was a large hangar, 60 by 30 metres, I think. This is where

13 they used to keep grain since this used to be a farm.

14 Q. In the time that you were there, did you perform any labour?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you tell the Chamber what sort of work you were doing whilst

17 you were being held at Batkovici?

18 A. We had to work on the farm. We had to do work with corn and soy

19 beans.

20 Q. And what about the general conditions that you saw at Batkovici

21 compared to the SUP, and I'm thinking now in terms of your sleeping, the

22 food, being able to go to the lavatory, beatings, that sort of thing. Can

23 you just give the Chamber a picture of conditions in Batkovici and the way

24 in which they differed, if any, from the SUP in Bosanski Samac?

25 A. The conditions in Batkovici were better than in Bosanski Samac.

1 We had greater freedom of movement, we had all the water that we wanted.

2 We had three meals a day. The only thing is that we had to work more.

3 That was actually the big difference. And as regards the sleeping

4 facilities, the situation was the same because we had to sleep on the

5 concrete floor.

6 Q. Did you have blankets?

7 A. When we were registered on the 3rd of December, the Red Cross

8 brought some.

9 Q. Did you register with the Red Cross?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: This is the 3rd of December, 1993, the registration

12 with the Red Cross, because it says they were registered on 3rd December.

13 What year?

14 A. 1992, 3rd of December. That is when we were registered.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Does that clarify the matter for Your Honour?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: When did they move to Batkovici?

17 MR. DI FAZIO: In late 1992, in November -- sorry, late November

18 1992.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: So in December 1992, they --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Were registered.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Registered by the Red Cross.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right. That's what he said.

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. di Fazio, could you clarify whether this is

24 the International Committee of the Red Cross or whether this was the Red

25 Cross of the former Yugoslavia.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

2 Q. Did you hear Her Honour's question? Have you got any idea at all

3 when you say that you were registered whether it was the worldwide

4 International Red Cross or whether it was the Red Cross of the former

5 Yugoslavia?

6 A. It was the International Red Cross.

7 Q. How did that assist you if, indeed, it did in Batkovici?

8 A. We were given cards and murders could no longer take place. We

9 would be given food that they would bring in from time to time and they

10 would visit us every ten days and then we would be given a pack of

11 cigarettes.

12 Q. Are you saying it was the International Red Cross that brought the

13 food?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What about communication with the outside world? Perhaps I should

16 be more specific. Did the fact of your registration with the

17 International Red Cross assist communication with the outside world? I

18 mean by that letters or phone calls, anything like that.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How did it assist?

21 A. They would bring us some message forms and pens and we would then

22 be able to write any messages we wanted and the International Red Cross

23 would then forward these messages for us.

24 Q. Once you'd finished using the pens, what would happen to them?

25 A. Once the Red Cross was gone, the duty police officer in the camp

1 would collect all the pens.

2 Q. In the period of time that you were in Batkovici, did beatings

3 occur from time to time?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you personally beaten?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. By whom?

8 A. The guards did it, the police officers there that guarded us.

9 Q. How often were you beaten in Batkovici?

10 A. They beat us right at the beginning, but when they realised that

11 we were unable to work if we were beaten up, then they stopped. So after

12 a month, there were no more beatings.

13 Q. Was there ever collective punishment?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Explain to the Chamber what you saw -- you saw happen when

16 collective punishment took place.

17 A. If somebody tried to escape or if somebody came drunk from the

18 work place, then we all had to stand between 8 and 10 hours in the snow or

19 in the rain and we had to stand at attention.

20 Q. How often did instances of collective punishment occur that you

21 saw?

22 A. Quite often.

23 Q. In the time that you were at Batkovici, were you placed on trial?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender into

1 evidence two documents --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: -- that relate to this witness and the trial. A

4 draft translation has been prepared for that, and I would ask that that

5 only be given an ID number. The full translation, or official

6 translation, should not take too long, and I would at a later point seek

7 to introduce into evidence, completely into evidence the full and official

8 translation. But I would ask at this stage that the draft only be given

9 an identification number, because I don't propose to seek its full

10 admission when I intend to use the official translation at a later point.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Why don't we just have -- the document you have is

12 in Serbo-Croat?

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Why can't we just have that as ID, and then,

15 when the full translation comes, we have both of them admitted?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: We can.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: There will be no objection.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If we can, I'm happy to do that. It's just that if

19 I do that, then Your Honours won't have something to look at in

20 the -- when I'm eliciting evidence of this from the defendant. I'm quite

21 happy to approach it in that fashion. I'm only concerned that Your

22 Honours have something, at least, to look at when I'm asking --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Unless you want to have certain parts of that

24 document read out. Because, you see, it causes confusion when you have

25 the draft translation marked and utilised and then you have the full

1 translation come into the record. It does cause confusion in the event

2 that the two versions differ, and it's clumsy for the Trial Chamber to use

3 two versions, because that's what we'll do in the end.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well, Your Honours. I will not seek to admit

5 into -- have marked the draft translation.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: And perhaps this is one other item you can skip and

7 deal with it later, when you have the full translation, that is, if you

8 tend to discuss the contents of the documents.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, we could do that. I hadn't thought of that,

10 frankly. That might, in fact, be the easiest method, and we can just skip

11 this whole --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: This part, yes.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: This part, and I can deal with what remains.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: In that case, I won't have too much more material

16 for this morning, but -- we'll go past 11.30, but not long beyond that.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: That is okay, but it's important to have a record

18 which makes sense.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Very well. I'm grateful for that. With

20 respect, it's a practical solution to my dilemma. Thank you.

21 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. di Fazio, I'm wondering if you can clarify from

22 the witness: By the time he left SUP, what sort of injuries had he

23 suffered, the extent; and 2) whether he had any access to doctors at the

24 SUP.

25 MR. DI FAZIO:

1 Q. Witness, the Chamber wishes to know what sort of injuries you had

2 suffered by the time you eventually came to leave the SUP. Now, we know

3 that obviously you had suffered injuries to your jaw, I suppose, and your

4 teeth, because they had been pulled. But can you tell us anything else,

5 if there were any other injuries, what those injuries were.

6 A. My nose was broken, the bones inside my nose, and that also

7 happened in SUP, in addition to the injuries I had sustained earlier when

8 I had been beaten.

9 As far as medical care is concerned, we had none. Dr. Ozren

10 Stanimirovic would come from time to time. When we were totally exhausted

11 from hunger, he would laugh and say, "Don't eat too much, because you seem

12 to have overeaten."

13 Q. I see. So who was this Dr. Stanimirovic? Where was -- firstly,

14 what was his ethnic background and where did he come from?

15 A. He came to Samac from Serbia. He worked there as a doctor. And

16 he is of Serbian ethnic background, of Orthodox faith.

17 Q. Right. Thank you. Was he working in Bosanski Samac as a doctor

18 prior to the events of April 1992?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Can I seek clarification? Is it your evidence,

21 Witness, that this doctor, who was known to be a medical doctor by the

22 witness, would just come in and simply say what the witness has said,

23 without ever treating any of the prisoners?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm going to explore what he did.

25 Q. Tell the Chamber, first of all, how often he would visit whilst

1 you were incarcerated in the SUP between September and late November.

2 A. If one of the prisoners got sick, then he would be called and he

3 would arrive, but I had never seen him offer any medical assistance to

4 anyone, give any kind of tablets or anything, never.

5 Q. What about when you had your teeth pulled? Did he come along and

6 give you any medical treatment for that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What about when you had your nose broken? Did he treat you for

9 that?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So what precisely did he do when he turned up at the SUP? You've

12 told us what he didn't do, but what did he do? Did he actually look at

13 the prisoners, examine them, ask them questions about their injuries, or

14 anything like that?

15 A. He would act in a very ironic manner and he would laugh. He may

16 have helped some of the prisoners whose lives may have been in danger, but

17 he would simply be there -- it would be a token gesture: Well, a doctor

18 has come. But he never did anything, as far as I know.

19 Q. Did you ever see him bandage anyone, give anyone an injection,

20 give anyone some pills, anything like that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. It may be difficult for you, but if you can tell us, how often did

23 he visit or did you see him at the SUP between September and late November

24 1992?

25 A. I saw him quite often, because people were exhausted from hunger

1 and they would be fainting. He would come, pour some water on the

2 prisoner who had fainted, and then he would leave. That was the extent of

3 his medical treatment, of Dr. Stanimirovic's medical treatment.

4 Q. Do you know who arranged for him to be taken to the SUP? Was it

5 the entreaties of prisoners or was it just a fact that he turned up and

6 that was it?

7 A. The duty police officer called him.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me? I just want

10 to make sure I've covered the issues raised by Your Honour Judge Singh.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Does that evidence clarify the issues that Your

13 Honour wished to have raised? Thank you.

14 Q. Did you receive any medical treatment while you were in Batkovici?

15 A. If we reported to the duty officer, he would take us to see a

16 doctor in the town.

17 Q. And was that real medical treatment?

18 A. If you compare it to the situation in Samac, yes.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm going to move on to

22 another topic. Do you want me to start that now? It's only two minutes

23 to 11.00. I prefer to deal with it at the one time, and I will definitely

24 finish as far as I can go this morning, but we're going to inevitably go

25 to 11.30 and I will probably wrap up as far as I can go today soon after

1 that.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I just want to clarify with the witness the medical

3 treatment in Batkovici where he used to be taken in town to the doctors.

4 Is it correct to say that whilst in Batkovici, you were treated

5 for all your injuries and you did recover?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Can I just clarify one aspect of that answer, if

8 Your Honours please?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because we've still got two minutes.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

11 Q. You said that you recovered. Was that because you got medical

12 treatment for the broken nose and for the teeth and so on? Did you

13 actually go and see a doctor and get treatment?

14 A. No, no, I did not receive any medical treatment for that. I

15 recovered from these injuries on my own, naturally.

16 Q. Did you, in fact, receive any medical treatment in Batkovici or

17 are you reporting what you saw of -- happen to others?

18 A. I saw what happened to the others and also, as far as I was

19 concerned, because I got diabetes, I was taken to have my sugar level

20 checked and I also received medication, some pills for the diabetes.

21 Q. And was it -- did you see doctors in Batkovici only in relation to

22 your diabetes or to other injuries?

23 A. And also for other injuries. If, for instance, you had been

24 beaten up. And often, a doctor came to see us in the hangar since

25 Dr. Stanko Pivasevic worked in Bijeljina and he was originally from Samac,

1 he would quite often come personally to the hangar to bring us

2 medication.

3 Q. And what was his bedside manner like compared to that of Dr. --

4 the other doctor who treated you in Bosanski Samac? How did he treat the

5 prisoners, in other words?

6 A. He treated us very nicely and he really tried to help everyone.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will have a break and resume our

9 proceedings at 1130 hours.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.45 a.m.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we will continue with the Prosecution.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. Just before I ask the

14 next question, I will let the Chamber know that further from the matters

15 raised by my learned friend Mr. Weiner this morning, the Defence have now

16 been provided with a document which sets out the possible options the

17 Prosecution will pursue in respect to the wording of the indictment and,

18 in particular, in respect to the wording "wanton" and "extensive."

19 They've been -- the document clearly sets out those options. They have

20 those. And so by noon on Monday, the Prosecution will make clear to them

21 which of those options it will pursue. Thank you.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah. Those are consultations between the parties.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I just merely wanted to place on the record

24 that they have been informed in writing of those options. Thank you.

25 Q. Witness, before the break we were talking about your period of

1 time in Batkovici.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. di Fazio, I wonder whether, before you go on

3 to the next question, whether you could clarify with the witness: He's

4 mentioned that he had diabetes. Did he have knowledge that he had

5 diabetes before his incarceration? That might be useful for us to know.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

7 Q. Witness, can you tell the Chamber if your diabetes, for which you

8 received treatment whilst in Batkovici, was a condition that you became

9 aware of whilst you were there, or was it a condition of some

10 longstanding, something that you had suffered from prior to that?

11 A. I learned about that while I was at Batkovici. I didn't have it

12 before.

13 Q. And was it regulated by changes in diet, or did you have insulin

14 injections or any other treatment?

15 A. I received tablets at the hospital in Bijeljina, and that's where

16 I had check-ups for my sugar level.

17 Q. And in the period of time you were in Batkovici, which is about 18

18 to 19 months, or thereabouts, how often did you receive treatment for your

19 diabetes at the hospital in Bijeljina?

20 A. Only when I would run out of tablets, then I would go to be issued

21 with a new package.

22 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you if in the time that you were at

23 Batkovici, if you saw any of the defendants in the hangar or thereabouts.

24 A. Only during an exchange, I would then see Mr. Miroslav Tadic, who

25 came with a list.

1 Q. Approximately how many occasions did you see him at Batkovici with

2 these lists?

3 A. Well, I couldn't tell you precisely, but I saw him about five or

4 six times.

5 Q. On each of those occasions, did he have lists in his possession?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On each of those occasions, and following his visits, were

8 prisoners who were in the hangar taken away to be exchanged?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you anxious to be exchanged?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Why not?

13 A. Because I was hoping that I would return home. I wasn't looking

14 forward to leaving to someone else what it had taken me 20 years to

15 acquire. But later I realised that there would be -- it wouldn't be

16 possible to continue living there.

17 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity of speaking to Miroslav Tadic

18 about an exchange?

19 A. Only once. I asked him about it, and he told me, "You should

20 return to Samac, because we need craftsmen."

21 Q. What did you say to him on this occasion? Did you have a request

22 for him?

23 A. No, I had no request, and I prayed to God that I wouldn't be

24 returned to Samac.

25 Q. Well, how was it that he came to say to you that you should return

1 to Samac because we need craftsmen? How was it that he came up with an

2 answer like that? What I'm interested in is, was it preceded by any

3 question or a request from you?

4 A. All of my colleagues who had worked in the waterworks in Samac had

5 all been detained, from director to the janitor. We were all at the camp

6 in Batkovici. So there were no plumbers left in Samac, and that's

7 probably what Mr. Tadic had in mind when he was saying this.

8 Q. Were any of those same men who were from the waterworks and who

9 were detained with you in Batkovici, were any of them kept in institutions

10 in - I won't say institutions - were any of them kept in the TO or the SUP

11 in Bosanski Samac in the time that you were incarcerated there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. About how many of them?

14 A. [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 there were seven or eight of us who had been employed with the waterworks.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me. I just want

21 to look at the transcript in a little more detail, please.

22 Q. When Mr. Tadic said to you that you should return, that you should

23 return to Bosanski Samac because craftsmen were needed, what was your

24 response?

25 A. I don't remember exactly what I replied, but I know I wasn't

1 overjoyed at the idea of going back.

2 Q. Was there any cost involved in getting exchanged as far as you're

3 aware?

4 A. So far as I know, when I was exchanged, there were no costs

5 involved when I was exchanged between the Bosnian side and the army of the

6 Republika Srpska. And everybody in Samac told me, however, that they had

7 paid to be put on the exchange list, however, I never saw a price list or

8 anything.

9 Q. So you're now telling the Chamber for matters that were reported

10 to you regarding the question of cost. What I want to know is whether, in

11 these matters that were reported to you, were you ever told to whom

12 payments would have to be made to be placed on the exchange list?

13 A. Yes, the wife of Avdo Drljacic said she had paid 400 Deutschmark

14 to Miroslav Tadic to put Avdo on the list, and that's how Avdo finally got

15 exchanged.

16 Q. Do you know a gentleman or a person named Sabah Seric?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Did you ever discuss with him the question of cost of exchanges?

19 A. Since he was detained together with me at Batkovici, he told me

20 that he had asked Mr. Tadic once and Tadic told him to get ready and that

21 once he had the money, he would be put on the list.

22 Q. Did that gentleman ever report actually having paid money?

23 A. No, he didn't tell me that.

24 Q. When were you eventually taken through the process known as an

25 exchange?

1 A. On the 2nd of June, 1994, I was exchanged in Sutorovici, Tuzla

2 municipality.

3 Q. Is that Sutorovici, is that a small village or town?

4 A. It's a small village, medium-sized village.

5 Q. In Bosnia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How far from Tuzla?

8 A. About 20 kilometres.

9 Q. How were you taken from Batkovici to this small village of

10 Sutorovici?

11 A. There were 18 of us who were exchanged then. We went to town on a

12 military truck. There, we boarded a bus and then we waited for enough

13 civilians to gather to fill the bus and then they took us to the

14 separation line at Sutorovici.

15 Q. So the bus carried with it, on board it, I should say, a number of

16 prisoners plus civilians who were picked up as well?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who was the ethnic background of both the prisoners and the

19 civilians that the bus picked up?

20 A. They were exclusively Muslims.

21 Q. Approximately how many were on the bus and furthermore, was there

22 only one bus that was involved in this exchange?

23 A. There was only one bus and about 50 of us were exchanged, 18 from

24 Batkovici and another 30 from the town of Bijeljina.

25 Q. Were they all, as far as you could tell, Bosnians?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Into whose custody or territory were you placed once the exchange

3 was completed?

4 A. We were handed over to the BH army, to the soldiers, because we

5 were on their territory.

6 Q. The people who were on the bus, did it include women and children?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did it include elderly men and women?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did it include, as far as you could tell, combatants, soldiers,

11 military types?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Once you had passed into the control of the soldiers of the BH

14 army, what did they do with you?

15 A. They took us to collective accommodation in the Mejdan hall in

16 Tuzla.

17 Q. I don't think I've asked you for the date of your exchange. Can

18 you tell us the date or -- that this event occurred?

19 A. The 2nd of June, 1994.

20 Q. Had your wife undergone the process known as exchange prior to

21 your being exchanged?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did she take your children with her?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you eventually reunited?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When were you reunited, where were you reunited, and under whose

3 control was the territory were you were reunited?

4 A. I was reunited with my family in July of 1994 in Orasje. Orasje

5 was controlled by the HVO.

6 Q. When your wife was exchanged and took the children with her, was

7 she able to take with her any of the property that you and she had owned

8 in your former life prior to April of 1992?

9 A. No, just her personal belongings and the personal belongings of

10 our children.

11 Q. Well, was that carried in bags?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Have you ever heard from her how many bags she was able to take

14 with her when she left Bosanski Samac?

15 A. Since our children were quite small, she could only carry one bag

16 and that was all.

17 Q. What sort of possessions did she have with her when you were

18 reunited with her in Orasje?

19 A. She rented an apartment. She had to pay the rent, and she didn't

20 have any of her personal property because she had to leave everything

21 behind.

22 Q. Now, in June 1994, you were exchanged. Did you have any input in

23 any way at all as to the decision of when to exchange you, and the fact

24 that you were being exchanged? In other words, were you ever consulted or

25 asked about that?

1 A. No, nobody ever asked me about that. Never.

2 Q. When did you first learn that you were to be exchanged?

3 A. In the evening of the 1st. In the evening they read out the list

4 of names so that we could get ready by morning.

5 Q. Had you even known before the 1st of June that anyone was

6 considering exchanging you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. In April of 1992, had you any plans or intention or desire to

9 uproot yourself from Bosanski Samac and take up life elsewhere?

10 A. No.

11 Q. I assume that your apartment, prior to the 16th and 17th of April,

12 1992, had your furniture and your possessions and your memorabilia of your

13 past life. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you ever see any of that stuff again?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you -- or rather, have you made any moves to regain possession

18 or some sort of control over your apartment? I mean, of course, the

19 apartment in Bosanski Samac.

20 A. I did get my apartment back, but it's been completely emptied out,

21 so there's no way I can go back to Samac.

22 Q. Are you planning to renovate it and clean it up?

23 A. As regards my apartment, I cleaned that up and now I'm waiting for

24 the possibility to arise for me to be able to buy it from the state, and

25 then I intend to sell it to somebody, because I have no intention of

1 living there, in Republika Srpska.

2 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry. What do you mean by "buy it back from the

3 state"?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the current procedure.

5 Since I had been given my apartment from my company that I worked for, it

6 was considered to be publicly owned. Now I have to invest some money in

7 it, and then I will be entitled to the full ownership of this apartment

8 and I will be able to buy it from the state, and then I will be able to

9 sell it to a third party. That's the procedure.

10 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

11 MR. DI FAZIO:

12 Q. If the events in April of 1992 had not occurred, would you have

13 had the right to continue residing in that apartment throughout all these

14 years?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you have had the right to rent out the apartment and get

17 rent for it, keep the rent?

18 A. As far as I know, yes, I would have had the right to rent the

19 apartment.

20 Q. Have you ever received any income generated from your apartment

21 between April of 1992 and now?

22 A. I don't know what you mean, but since it is my intention to sell

23 it, and since I do have a prospective buyer who has offered me a price of

24 2.000 German marks for the apartment -- in fact, it's an advance payment,

25 these 2.000 German marks, and once I complete the purchase from the state,

1 then I will get the rest of the sum from the buyer.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: I was wondering about your questions on whether or

4 not he was getting rent at any time, because he had explained, when Judge

5 Singh asked him, that the apartment was owned by the company he was

6 working for, it was allocated to him, so it was considered publicly owned.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I appreciate that, but I just don't know, but --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: He wasn't -- he was not -- the witness -- to my

9 understanding, the witness was not the registered owner.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I heard that and understood that, if Your

11 Honours please. I don't know what the system is in Yugoslavia, and

12 therefore, I don't know if that means that he's got the right to rent it

13 and generate income. The state of the evidence is that he -- at this

14 stage is that he says he does have that right.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: After buying it from the state he will have that

16 right.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I see.

18 JUDGE SINGH: And at most, he may have had the right to sublease

19 it, provided that his lease from the state entitled him to sublease it.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes. Okay.

21 MR. PANTELIC: I would be happy if I can help my learned colleague

22 with these details, but of course -- if we are entering into this topic,

23 maybe it would be --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no.

25 MR. PANTELIC: -- useful. No, no. Of course, I'm not intending

1 to cross-examine this witness about that. He's a layperson.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Not even to give evidence yourself.

3 MR. PANTELIC: He's a layperson, of course.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Not even to give evidence yourself. Yes. If the

5 Prosecution are intending to have any issue at all, it is their duty to

6 clarify that with the witness. If they are satisfied with the situation

7 as it is, that is fine. When the Defence comes on with the opportunity to

8 cross-examine, they can also get their own version from the witness if

9 they so wish.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'd just like to clarify it, I think.

11 Q. Witness, what I'm concerned about is this: I just want to know

12 what the situation is, and do your best to assist the Chamber. You

13 said, have said, that the apartment was owned by the state and that, at

14 this stage, at least, you still need to buy it in order to sell it. What

15 I'm concerned about is the period of time when presumably the state still

16 owned the apartment, that is, after your arrest and continuing up until

17 this day. Now, in that situation, where the state is in fact the owner of

18 the apartment, are you permitted, or would you have been permitted, to

19 leave the apartment, rent it out, collect the rents?

20 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honours. Calling for speculation.

21 This person cannot give the right answer. And in addition, he stated that

22 probably there would be some possibilities in previous answers. Thank

23 you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought that the question is trying to deal with

25 the right of ownership. Yes, it does sound like asking him to speculate.

1 I thought the Prosecution was trying to find out what type of ownership he

2 enjoyed.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: And rights of ownership.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, what right of ownership he enjoyed vis-a-vis

5 the state, the office where he was working which allocated the apartment

6 to him.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. Page 47, line 8 and 9. The part

8 of -- finally, the question of my learned colleague was: "Now, in that

9 situation, where the state is, in fact, the owner of the apartment, are

10 you permitted, or would you have been permitted, to leave the apartment,

11 rent it out, collect the rents?" I mean, that's obvious. Our own

12 colleague tried to establish the situation in hypothetical terms. So that

13 was the basis of my reaction, nothing more. Thank you.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm trying to establish an intensely practical

15 thing, and I don't see that asking --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought so.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: And I don't see that asking someone, "Are you

18 allowed to rent out your house, your apartment?" is an invitation to

19 speculation. Who better than this person to tell us?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because it would depend on how he understands

21 his right of ownership to be, to have been at the time.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, exactly. It's a matter that he can talk

23 about. I mean we all know if we can rent out our house or not.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: So he can go ahead and answer that question.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: May I just have a moment to confer with my

1 colleague, please?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MR. DI FAZIO:

5 Q. I'm going to ask you -- I'll just repeat my question to you

6 briefly. It concerns the period of time between April 1992 and up to the

7 present. You've told us that the state owned the apartment. What I want

8 to know is: In that period of time, if you had wanted to rent out the

9 apartment, could you have done so, would you have been permitted to do so,

10 and if so, would you have been permitted to pocket the rent generated?

11 That's all I want to know.

12 A. In my state, Bosnia, there is rights, a law governing the right of

13 a tenant. If you spend ten years in an apartment owned by your company or

14 by the state, you are considered to be a co-owner of that apartment which

15 entitled you to either rent that apartment or to sell it if you want to do

16 so.

17 Q. Okay.

18 JUDGE SINGH: So basically you have possession with the option to

19 purchase it after ten years. Is that what you are saying?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 MR. DI FAZIO:

22 Q. How long had you been in the apartment or owned -- possessed the

23 apartment, I should say, been in possession of the apartment as at April

24 of 1992?

25 A. From 1975, which means 17 years.

1 JUDGE SINGH: I have one question there, please. Any reason why,

2 after ten years, you had not decided to purchase it earlier?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That law had not been enforced yet

4 at that time and, in fact, it is not in force yet in the Republika Srpska

5 and it will probably be enacted in January next year, and this was the

6 only thing that prevented me from actually buying my apartment.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

8 Q. How did you actually go about the process of recovering possession

9 of your apartment and cleaning it out and getting it into saleable form?

10 JUDGE SINGH: Actually, that doesn't matter because he has already

11 stated that he has an accrued right to purchase it, so it's an accrued

12 right there.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'm not so concerned about that issue, if

14 Your Honour pleases. You will recall that there was a matter raised by my

15 colleague, Mr. Zecevic the other day regarding notification of resumption

16 of rights of people in this sort of situation, and I just wanted to

17 establish whether his enforcement of his rights is something that he has

18 pursued or whether it's something that he has been notified of and that's

19 really what I'm concerned about.

20 Q. In fact, Witness, what I'll ask you is this: the recent moves that

21 you've made to clean out your apartment, get it ready and find a buyer for

22 it and so on, is that something that you've done of your own initiative or

23 is it something that you have been informed you can do by authorities in

24 the Republika Srpska?

25 A. I was informed by the authorities in the Republika Srpska.

1 Q. What were you told?

2 A. That if I did not intend to go back, that's what I learned in the

3 Ministry for Refugees and Displaced Persons, that I could either rent or

4 sell my apartment. They gave me the two options. The third option was

5 for me to return to Samac.

6 Q. When were you told of this?

7 A. I was -- I heard that for two years and it was actually two years

8 that it took me to gain this right for my apartment because I had to run

9 around and chase all the paperwork, and things like that.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

11 MR. PANTELIC: And the witness said that he went to ministry and

12 it's not appears in his answer in the transcript. Thank you.

13 MR. DI FAZIO:

14 Q. Did you attend a ministry in the Republika Srpska in pursuit of

15 your rights?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Which of the authorities in the Republika Srpska told you about

18 your rights in respect of your apartment?

19 A. I was informed by the head of the ministry, Marinko Tirnanic from

20 Jajce and Miroslav Zoranovic from Samac they told me that, and actually I

21 addressed them regarding this issue.

22 Q. That's what I want to know. Who approached who first? What I

23 want to know is was it the authorities of the Republika Srpska who raised

24 the issue or did you go and raise the issue with them? That's what I want

25 to know?

1 A. I went there and I approached them.

2 Q. Thank you. Apart from your apartment and your personal

3 possessions, did you have any other property that you lost? I refer to,

4 for example, the tools of your trade, a vehicle, things like that.

5 A. Just my tools, the tools that I had, because I worked. I lost

6 that. But that's it.

7 Q. Any vehicles?

8 A. No.

9 [Prosecution counsel confer]

10 MR. DI FAZIO:

11 Q. Just to wrap it up, just one last question, Witness. You've

12 already told us that the furniture and your memorabilia and so on went

13 missing from the apartment, what about fixtures in the apartment, things

14 like radiators, stuff that's attached, actually fixed into the apartment.

15 Did you suffer any loss there?

16 A. I did not have any radiators, and as regards the water and

17 electricity fittings, everything had been taken out. The apartment was

18 stripped.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I don't think there's any

20 other topic that I can usefully pursue today and so I'd like to, with the

21 Chamber's permission, to bring a halt to my examination-in-chief at this

22 stage and deal with the remaining issue hopefully.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Pending the decision on the motion.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Pending the decision, of course, in January.

25 I don't want to say that I have absolutely no further questions on

1 the issue of property. It may be that after a review of the transcript, I

2 might have a few more but --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: The point is you haven't completed your

4 examination-in-chief.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Essentially, yes. I just wanted to reserve my

6 rights in that respect.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So Witness, the Prosecution will call you,

8 they will notify you when to come so they can complete their examination

9 and also, the Defence counsel can have the opportunity to cross-examine

10 you and the Judges, of course, if they wish to put any more questions.

11 For the time being, you will be released and you are free to go

12 until you receive notification from the Prosecution as to when you should

13 give evidence to the Tribunal. Thank you. You will be led out of the

14 courtroom by the usher.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we rise, there are a few matters that the

17 Trial Chamber would like to deal with and perhaps also ask the parties if

18 there are any matters they want to discuss.

19 There was a problem, a report that the Trial Chamber received from

20 counsel for the Defence regarding contacts between witnesses of the

21 Prosecution right at the beginning of these proceedings, and the Trial

22 Chamber did inform the Victims and Witnesses Unit to seek their response

23 and also to find out how the witnesses were being looked after in The

24 Hague.

25 The position with the Victims and Witnesses Unit is that they are

1 not attached to the Prosecution or to the Defence. They are an

2 independent unit under the office of the Registrar and their duties

3 include looking after all the witnesses who are summoned to come and give

4 evidence before the Tribunal. These are Prosecution witnesses, witnesses

5 of the Court, and Defence witnesses alike. Among their duties is

6 counselling for the witnesses, to see that the witnesses are comfortable,

7 they understand what is involved in giving evidence, they have the

8 facilities they need. If they are on medication or if there are any other

9 special requirements that they need for their health and their well-being,

10 all those matters are attended to.

11 And some of the officials of the Victims and Witnesses Unit

12 actually accompany the witnesses to the hotels or wherever they are

13 being -- they have accommodation and also accompany them to the Tribunal

14 when they come to give evidence or attend to them even when they have to

15 see a doctor.

16 Now, during those contacts, there is nothing to stop a witness and

17 the official from the Victims and Witnesses Unit to discuss how they fared

18 in the courtroom while giving evidence, what their fears are, and that

19 sort of thing. The duty of the official is they understand what their

20 obligations are and they are at ease. If there is any problem, then they

21 will notify either the Prosecution in the event of a Prosecution witness

22 or the Defence counsel in the event of a Defence witness as to what should

23 be done because there have been incidences in the past when we have had

24 witnesses who have either fallen ill or have become scared to continue and

25 activities have been undertaken by the unit to notify the relevant parties

1 including the Trial Chamber so that action can be taken.

2 There is nothing to stop a witness who requires a digestive at any

3 time of the day to take that, and perhaps even invite any official from

4 the Victims and Witnesses Unit to accompany him or accompany her. There

5 is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

6 As for accommodation, the Victims and Witnesses Unit do try to

7 keep witnesses of a given case in one hotel for ease of transport and also

8 to be able to look after them. And in a situation where you have trials

9 including appeals going on more or less at various times or at the same

10 time, they become quite overloaded so that it is not possible for each

11 witness to have his or her own personal attendant from the unit so they

12 normally do it -- they look after the witnesses as a group. So it's not

13 uncommon for witnesses to meet and greet each other, but they do make sure

14 they warn them never to discuss the evidence that they have given in court

15 or that they are going to give in the Tribunal.

16 After these complaints were raised, the Trial Chamber waited to

17 see whether or not this problem would continue and nothing has been

18 reported since so the Trial Chamber is satisfied that there was nothing

19 untoward in the incidents that were reported and that the Victims and

20 Witnesses Unit did comply with their duties as they were required to do.

21 Any other matters before we rise formally? The Defence? Or the

22 Prosecution first, yes.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, a matter that I want to attend to is this,

24 just the order of the day when we resume in January. I raised the other

25 day the issue of how we continue on the 14th when we resume. I assume

1 that we will continue with the examination-in-chief of this witness.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: That would depend on whether or not the decision

3 have been made by then. You did -- yes, you did indicate that you had the

4 other witness for the documents, variant A and B.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's so. Very well. That's precisely the

6 sort of issue that we need to clarify, with respect.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Of course, Your Honours are quite right. I

9 hadn't thought about that. If the decision goes against the Prosecution

10 and, furthermore, following submissions, that's the end of the matter as

11 far as evidence of damage to religious institutions is concerned, that

12 will pretty well have wrapped up the examination-in-chief of this

13 witness. If it doesn't, then of course that's what I will want to

14 continue examining him about. If the decision does go in favour of the

15 Prosecution and I do -- and I'm then poised, ready to finish off his

16 examination-in-chief, would the Chamber expect me to do that before

17 calling any further evidence on the Variant A and B witnesses?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It would be preferable so that the

19 cross-examination then can follow on --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Right. So --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: -- and then the witness can be released once and for

22 all.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Is this understanding correct: If the

24 decision is in favour of the Prosecution, I would then continue my

25 examination-in-chief, he would then be cross-examined, finish the witness

1 entirely, and then interpose the evidence relating to the Variant A and

2 B --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the next full witness. And also, remember

4 that we still have another witness who is to be cross-examined.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's right. Exactly. That witness as

6 well. Would the Chamber prefer that we finish off his cross-examination

7 as well before the Variant A and B witnesses are called? It's a question

8 of scheduling witnesses and so on. I need an indication from that so that

9 my colleagues can prepare for that evidence and we can make sure that

10 witnesses are produced seamlessly.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the details of the planning can be

12 left to the Prosecution, because you will receive the decision of the

13 Chamber and you'll plan accordingly.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down for the

16 interpretation.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You'll receive the decision of the Chamber and

18 you're going to plan accordingly. The point which is here is that Witness

19 M has not yet finished examination, and then we'll proceed after that to

20 cross-examination. We have another witness who was -- who completed

21 examination-in-chief --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: -- who has yet to come for cross-examination. As

24 for Variant A and B, it can be rescheduled according to your preference.

25 The Defence have enough notice that this witness for Variant A and B most

1 likely will come in January or early next year, so I'm sure that they will

2 have prepared themselves for cross-examination, because they were given

3 the relevant documents.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Well, in that case, can I announce to

5 the Chamber, and for the benefit of my learned friends, that if the

6 decision is in favour of the Prosecution, then I am minded to do this:

7 Finish my examination-in-chief of this witness, have his cross-examination

8 and his re-examination, finish him completely. Following that, to finish

9 the cross-examination of the other witness who remains. Once that has

10 been completed, then to introduce the evidence relating to the Variant A

11 and B document.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If the decision goes against us, then what I would

14 propose is: Finish the evidence of this witness and his re-examination,

15 still call the --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down for

17 interpretation.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Slow down, Mr. di Fazio.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry. And then have the evidence relating to the

20 Variant A and B --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: So in essence, therefore, finish off both this

23 witness and the other witness completely, and at that juncture, at that

24 point, call the Variant A and B evidence.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

1 Any matters to be raised by the Defence?

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have another point. I don't know if

3 my colleagues have any response to what the Prosecutor just said, but I

4 would only like to ask my learned friend from the Prosecution,

5 Mr. di Fazio, about the following: He promised us before this Trial

6 Chamber that by today he would enable us to get the notes of his

7 interviews with Stevan Todorovic. I talked to him this morning, and he

8 promised me that today, before the end of working hours, the notes will be

9 delivered to us. It would be very useful to us, and I'm speaking on

10 behalf of all the Defence teams here, if these notes could be made

11 available to us as soon as possible today, because we have the opportunity

12 to visit our clients today and get from them instructions which would be

13 very helpful. I know this is a matter to be resolved between the matters,

14 but I'm raising it before the Trial Chamber so as to get their assistance

15 in getting these notes as soon as possible.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Perhaps I can ask for an answer from

17 Mr. di Fazio.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. If Your Honours please, I can go part way to

19 accommodating the Defence counsel. I can certainly give them the notes

20 today, but I don't know that I can give it to them in time for them to see

21 their clients. I need to review the notes. They are my notes, I might

22 add.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. They are the Prosecutor's notes.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: They are my personal notes that I have prepared,

25 and I need to review them to make sure that there's nothing in there that

1 I don't want to disclose or hand over to the Defence. That will take some

2 time. Now, they will get them, and they will get them by close of

3 business today, but whether I can get them to them earlier than that is a

4 bit of a problem for me.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: When you look at what you have to do, which date

6 would you give the Trial Chamber as the deadline for handing over those

7 notes?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Today.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Today.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Today. I'll do it today, but I can't do it early

11 today.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: And I understand they wanted to go and see their

14 clients at the gaol today, but it's that that's going to cause me a

15 problem. But I'll get them to them today.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because the Trial Chamber -- the Tribunal will

17 still be in session next week, so if you give them the notes -- when you

18 are ready to give them the notes, before the end of today, as you say,

19 they would probably have time to see their clients.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: That will be no problem. They'll get them today.

21 Thank you.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Any other matters?

23 MS. BAEN: Yes, Your Honour. Just briefly, I wanted to respond to

24 this victims and witnesses issue. And let me just say, I appreciate the

25 Chamber looking into the matters. However, we really didn't have a

1 problem with the way the Victims and Witnesses Unit was handling

2 themselves. We have no quarrel with them, no problem with them at all.

3 The matter of concern that we had was that we saw two witnesses talking to

4 each other, and we were concerned that they might be discussing each

5 other's testimony, and therefore, that would go to the credibility of the

6 witnesses. And if they had been discussing their testimony before the

7 Tribunal, then we wanted -- or we felt like we were entitled to

8 cross-examine them on that or find out from Victims and Witnesses, or

9 someone, whether or not they had, in fact, been discussing their

10 testimony. So I wanted to make it clear that we didn't have a problem

11 with Victims and Witnesses. Happily, we haven't had any other problems.

12 We haven't seen any witnesses talking. But I think it would be very

13 helpful -- the Prosecution may already do this, but if the Prosecution can

14 maybe instruct their witnesses, once they get here and they're proofing

15 their witnesses, that once they leave, and while they're here, they're not

16 to discuss their testimony with any other witnesses, just as once they

17 start testifying, the Prosecutors can't discuss their testimony. So

18 that's really what we were concerned with, Your Honour. Sometimes these

19 witnesses have never been here before. They don't know that it's wrong.

20 So maybe that would help the situation.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Those practices are already there. They've been

22 there ever since the Tribunal was established. It's just that, as you

23 have pointed out, they're not the same witnesses who come in every case.

24 So most of the witnesses come here for the first time, and those

25 instructions are always given by the Victims and Witnesses Unit, and when

1 the Prosecution proof their witnesses before they give evidence, they

2 always give them those instructions. And in the responses from the

3 Victims and Witnesses Unit, who were looking after these witnesses, there

4 was nothing to indicate that the two witnesses did discuss their evidence

5 in this case.

6 MS. BAEN: That's the whole answer we wanted, then. So the answer

7 is: Those two witnesses did not discuss the case.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: No, not as far as the Trial Chamber is concerned.

9 MS. BAEN: Thank you, Your Honour. And on behalf of the Defence

10 team, we wish everybody a happy and safe holiday.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

12 Mr. Weiner.

13 MR. WEINER: I was just going to advise the Court that we do

14 instruct them that they're not to discuss their testimony with one

15 another.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. WEINER: And also, on behalf of the Prosecution, I would like

18 to wish counsel, all members of the Court and all staff here a very happy

19 holidays, and we'll see you next year.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. And on this issue of whether or not they

21 discussed, there is no evidence that there was any prejudice at all to the

22 cases of any of the defendants.

23 The other point I wish to really emphasise is the problem we keep

24 facing with the documents. The Translation Unit, we know is overloaded,

25 but we would like the parties, as much as possible, to keep pushing for

1 their documents to be properly or formally translated for the next session

2 so that we don't have this problem of either having a draft translation or

3 relying on the understanding of the witness in interpreting the documents,

4 because it gives rise to several problems when you are analysing the

5 evidence for purposes of arriving at verdicts.

6 I think those are the only problems the Trial Chamber wanted to

7 deal with. It is now 12.45, and since we cannot continue with any other

8 witness, we shall formally adjourn. The proceedings will continue on the

9 14th of January, 2002.

10 As to the sitting hours, the Trial Chamber will issue a Scheduling

11 Order, because at the moment we're not sure whether we shall sit in the

12 morning sessions or in the afternoon sessions. So a Scheduling Order will

13 follow. And when the Trial Chamber is on recess, the Trial Chamber does

14 expect counsel for the Prosecution and counsel for the Defence to continue

15 working on their cases, so that we minimise the hitches the next time we

16 meet.

17 The Court will rise.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.45 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of January,

20 2001

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