Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5927

1 Monday 18 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Milan Simic not present]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I notice that Mr. Dagovic is still in the

12 witness box, and so we will continue with cross-examination.

13 Mr. Pantelic.

14 WITNESS: ESAD DAGOVIC [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 MR. PANTELIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic: [Continued]

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good day. We would agree about some indisputable

19 facts. The first fact is as follows: During your detention at the Samac

20 MUP, you experienced mistreatment and abuse; is this true or not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Fact number two: The chief of police, Stiv Todorovic, and his

23 police officers, practically were responsible during your captivity for

24 everything that was going on; yes or no?

25 A. No.

Page 5928

1 MR. WEINER: I'd object.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MR. WEINER: The question is for everything that's going. That's

5 an improper question, calling for conclusion about all sorts of things.

6 Some of it would be outside the scope of this witness, and I'd object.

7 It's an improper question.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

9 MR. PANTELIC: I will narrow the issue, of course, Your Honours.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Fact number three: Members of paramilitary units

11 which were at the Samac MUP carried out certain abuse; yes or no?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Fact number four: Members of the Serbian police under the command

14 of Stiv Todorovic also abused you; is this right or not?

15 A. Amongst others, yes, they did.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I would like to tender into evidence

17 one sketch which was made by this witness. The ERN number is 00182901.

18 It is actually -- depict and description of the MUP area where he was

19 arrested.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: When was it made?

21 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: When was it made?

23 MR. PANTELIC: Well, that's another problem that I want to bring

24 to the attention of this Trial Chamber. In fact, during the preparation

25 of cross-examination of this witness, I noticed that in his statement made

Page 5929

1 on 1994, he speaks about this map and another sketch. And the -- after

2 the verification in checking what was discovered from the OTP to the

3 Defence, I noticed that these two particular documents were not -- were

4 not disclosed, and of course, I made some contacts with my learned

5 friends, and they were so kind to provide us virtually by the end of last

6 week. So it was made -- I assume it was made in 1994. But the ERN

7 numbers are not correspond with the ERN numbers on his previous statement

8 on 1994. So maybe my colleague can clarify that. In the meantime, I

9 would like to tender this into evidence. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

11 MR. WEINER: I just want to clarify one thing, Your Honour. We

12 have a signed receipt from this Defence counsel for that statement and the

13 diagrams and it's dated June 9th, 1999. We've had -- several times, the

14 Prosecution has been blamed for not providing the documents. We have a

15 signed receipt. If you want, I can turn it in to the Court.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic --

17 MR. WEINER: Signed by Mr. Lukicic on his behalf. And we have it

18 signed by all the attorneys. So if there's a problem that one attorney

19 didn't turn them over, that's their type of problem. It shouldn't be

20 blamed on the Prosecution. We've been blamed on several occasions when we

21 have signed receipts for these documents.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, if I may, I would very much be

24 grateful if I can take a look -- short look on this receipt, because

25 according to my list, I am speaking on behalf of my client, I wasn't able

Page 5930

1 to locate this particular ERN numbers. So if I just have a short look on

2 this receipt, I would be grateful.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe the usher can assist first with counsel.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Because I have all these documents on the CD-ROM,

5 and I have a certain programme when I type, you know, particular ERN

6 number and it doesn't appear. So --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher please show Mr. Pantelic and the

8 Prosecution.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, not only is the ERN listed, too, from

10 the documents on the receipt --

11 MR. PANTELIC: Well, I can confirm that these ERN numbers are on

12 this list, but still after the checking of the material discovery of my

13 present client, which is Mr. Blagoje Simic, I don't have these particular

14 ERN numbers in my list. So I kindly ask that this approach from the

15 Prosecutor would be clarified, because as I said, my previous documents

16 were transmitted to the -- to the counsel who is now in charge for this

17 particular crime, Mr. Tadic. But as I said, I don't have on my list of

18 these ERN numbers these particular sketches, so I am not obliged, Your

19 Honours, to have all documents during this case. Contrary, I am obliged

20 when I finish with my client to transmit all relevant documents to the

21 attorney in question. So the OTP is not in possession of the receipt that

22 I signed for my client, Mr. Blagoje Simic, that they gave me these

23 particular sketches. So up to now I don't see -- I don't see this

24 evidence.

25 But we can move on.

Page 5931

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think so, that we have heard enough

2 explanation, and I'm sure that the Prosecution are satisfied that they did

3 what they could at the time. Perhaps as time goes on, they will make sure

4 that since Mr. Blagoje Simic came on the list much later --

5 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: So that all the other relevant documents are handed

7 over.

8 MR. PANTELIC: He came in March 2001, so they were obliged to

9 discover all these materials.

10 Anyhow --

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honour please, that raises a

12 considerable problem. I mean, the Prosecution has handed over these

13 documents that are general documents in the case and of a general

14 application to all of these defendants, and this is a clear, clear

15 example, a statement of one witness that applies in many respects to

16 various issues in the case.

17 If the situation is that Mr. Pantelic has lost or given away all

18 the documents that he once received from the Prosecution, then this

19 situation will arise again and again, won't it? So I think that we ought

20 to know, and firmly know, from Mr. Pantelic if indeed he is now missing a

21 large swathe of documents that he once received because he gave them to

22 another counsel. It seems to me that the problem could be solved and not

23 laid at the Prosecution's door by Mr. Pantelic simply saying to counsel,

24 "Can I have a copy of the documents I gave you?" That would, I think,

25 take care of the problem, would it not? If that's not suitable to Mr.

Page 5932

1 Pantelic, then I think a clear indication from him that he is missing

2 a large section of documents be made to us, and that could be done

3 privately, and we will attend to his request. But I wouldn't like this

4 issue to arise again, because of course it would put Mr. Pantelic at a

5 disadvantage if he doesn't have the documents and it puts us at a

6 disadvantage, too. If Your Honours, please.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you for the explanation, Mr. Di Fazio.

8 I think that is sufficient. I think both parties will make sure that--

9 MR. PANTELIC: But Your Honour, just to end this, I need to give

10 you few informations. The fact is here as follows: I gave all documents

11 and statement to my colleague, Mr. Lukic. So it is not any more in my

12 possession any page, any document. That is a normal way, how we act. And

13 when I started with Mr. Blagoje Simic, the Prosecutor were obliged to

14 provide me in discovery process with all relevant documents related to my

15 client, Mr. Blagoje Simic. So I mean, it's a little bit of

16 misunderstanding on the part of Prosecution about how these documents were

17 transmitted. So they are in possession of my colleague, Mr. Lukic, and I

18 am not entitled to go into his office and to check up what's going on in

19 his own papers.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic -- let me ask Mr. Lukic, please.

21 I'm sure you would have no objection to giving copies of all the

22 documents that Mr. Pantelic handed over to you to him. Not that you

23 have an obligation to do so, but as professional etiquette.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honour. I will do

25 everything to prevent any kind of wrong steps in procedure. But yes,

Page 5933

1 Mr. Pantelic did hand over to me the records and the whole documentation,

2 and of course, I will make sure that I will hand it back to him. But

3 also, I will make available all the material to him handed over to me by

4 the Prosecution. So hopefully that -- the Trial Chamber will permit me to

5 allow access to Mr. Pantelic again to all the documents that he has

6 provided to me and that he can photocopy the documents that he needs.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much.

8 Can we proceed, please.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Yes, Your Honours.

10 Mr. Usher, could you please give this map to the witness.

11 Sorry, it is on the ELMO. Could I have the ID number or maybe if

12 there is no objection or maybe --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: It's a sketch, not a map.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, it's a sketch. Sorry. That's my mistake.

15 Sketch number -- ERN number 001829 --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down for the

17 benefit of the interpreters? Thank you.

18 MR. PANTELIC: I would like to tender it into evidence.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the -- first of all, the interpreters

20 are saying can you slow down, Mr. Pantelic. They are having problems

21 catching up with you.

22 The Prosecution, I'm sure, have got sight of this diagram -- or

23 sketch, rather, alleged to have been drawn by the witness now in the

24 witness box. Is there any objection to having it produced into evidence?

25 MR. WEINER: No objection.

Page 5934

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have an exhibit number, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It is Exhibit D26/1.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. Mr. Usher, I don't think we need your

4 assistance. You can sit, please.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Would you be so kind and tell us whether the

6 markings "SL Samac" stands for Slavonski Samac.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I assume that you sketched this.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Slavonski Samac is on the territory of the Republic of Croatia.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. This next marking "trees" means that this is the bank towards

13 Croatia and that it's forested; is that true?

14 A. Well, I wouldn't call it a forest, but yes, there were trees.

15 Q. You will agree with me that there were members of Croatian army

16 there, wouldn't you?

17 A. Well, I don't know. I wasn't there on the other side.

18 Q. I didn't ask you that. Do you have knowledge that there was

19 Croatian army there?

20 A. No. I don't know.

21 Q. Would you please take a red marker and on the part of the diagram

22 where it says "SL Samac," could you please write "CRO," which is an

23 abbreviation for "Croatia." Then I would ask you to take the red marker

24 and to mark the garage that you sketched where your relative was killed by

25 a shell.

Page 5935

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. So that's garage number 4, and you marked it with a red cross.

3 You marked garage number 4 with a red cross, the place where your cousin

4 was killed by a shell?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it was his uncle.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, his uncle. Yes.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Because the interpreter -- the interpretation was

9 "cousin."

10 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Could you please mark, since in your previous testimony you

12 explained what happened at the time of this shelling, could you please

13 indicate with an arrow the direction from which the shell came.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. PANTELIC: For the record, the witness just made an arrow,

17 which was the direction of the alleged direction of the shelling.

18 Mr. Usher, you can take your seat. Thank you.

19 Q. [Interpretation] You provided a statement to the Prosecutor's

20 office in 1994; is that true?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In my records, it's the 6th and the 7th of September, 1994.

23 A. Well, I don't remember the exact date.

24 MR. PANTELIC: With your permission, Your Honour, I have a copy on

25 B/C/S version of his statement. So maybe we can place it in front of him,

Page 5936

1 then so we can easily go through certain portions of this statement. It

2 is not my intention to tender it into evidence. It's just a facilitating

3 of communication with the witness, Your Honours.

4 Q. [Interpretation] So in your opinion, the shell was fired by the

5 Serb forces on the Serb town of Samac; is that what you're claiming?

6 A. Yes. I am convinced of that.

7 Q. But this conviction of yours, do you have any proof of that? Did

8 you discuss this with anybody?

9 A. Since I was at the scene of the crime, I could see certain things

10 for myself. And when I was there after I was released from the camp, I --

11 after the exchange when I returned to Samac, I had the opportunity to get

12 a better look and even to make a record with a camera of where I was

13 standing, so I filmed or I took pictures of everything. So I assume that

14 my thoughts about it are correct.

15 Q. As far as I understood from your previous testimony, while you

16 were questioned by one of my colleagues, you said that one shell fell

17 only. Is that true?

18 A. Into the MUP courtyard, yes.

19 Q. Could you please clarify. Does that mean that there were other

20 shells?

21 A. Yes. And this is what I said on the previous occasion, if you had

22 read that carefully.

23 Q. So that day when the shelling took place, one of the shells fell

24 on the SUP, and the other shells fell on other places on that day.

25 A. Yes.

Page 5937

1 Q. You heard about the incident at Markale in Sarajevo?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. What do you know about that incident? Who fired at whom?

4 A. I don't know. I wasn't there.

5 MR. WEINER: Just --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

7 MR. WEINER: This is a Bosanski Samac case. As to the firing, as

8 to who fired in Sarajevo at certain times, that's for the Galic trial.

9 That's not a matter for the Bosanski Samac trial.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, my idea is to establish certain, I

12 would say, illogical position of this witness with regard to certain

13 situation. And I'm simply asking about the general knowledge. I wasn't

14 asking, if you will notice, was he work there in Sarajevo. I simply ask

15 whether he knows or not about this event. He said yes. So I have line of

16 questioning where this might be of very much importance.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But Mr. Pantelic, you are a lawyer, and you

18 know very well that when a witness comes to give evidence, there are

19 limitations as to what he can be asked about. This is a fact witness.

20 MR. PANTELIC: I agree.

21 Q. [Interpretation] So on the 28th of October, 1992, when this

22 shelling was carried out, you were in the MUP courtyard; is that true?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that the shell came from Croat

25 positions?

Page 5938

1 A. I'm convinced that it did not.

2 Q. But you are not sure.

3 A. I am sure, 100 per cent. I can even argument that, if necessary.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: And Mr. Pantelic, the other question -- the other

5 point I've observed is that we've had a lot of questioning about this

6 particular shell which killed his uncle.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: With other counsel.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: And I'm sure we've had all the explanations the

11 witness has to give and why he thinks it didn't come from Croatia. We've

12 been through that already. I don't think any repetition will do us any

13 good. It's a waste of Court time.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. It's very necessary, because now I am going

15 to tender into evidence another sketch of this witness. The ERN number is

16 00182899. It's a sketch -- well, I would say a sort of map of town of

17 Samac and neighbouring areas. This sketch was also made by this witness.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the Prosecution?

19 MR. WEINER: No objection, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It's Exhibit D27/1.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: If I may ask before Mr. Pantelic cross-examines, if

23 I may ask the Prosecutor. Both D26/1 and D27/1 are sketches made by this

24 witness. Largely -- the writing is in Serbo-Croat; isn't it?

25 MR. WEINER: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

Page 5939

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe the Court can ask the registry

2 assistant to ask the Translation Unit to give us the English equivalent of

3 the words by having photocopies.

4 MR. WEINER: On 27.1, Your Honour, it's just the names of the

5 towns. So it's nothing that would really need to be translated.

6 On 26/1, there are words like "drvece" and other words.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Then it's only 26/1 which requires an English

8 equivalent which the Translation Unit will deal with, on the request of

9 the Court, of course.

10 Yes, Mr. Pantelic. You can proceed with your cross-examination.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. [Interpretation] As far as I understand, you drew this map. Is

13 that true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In 1994, when you gave the statement; is that when it was?

16 A. I don't know, but -- I don't know the exact date, but I know that

17 I did draw such a map. I understand this map.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Just could we have a zoom, please, on this map

19 from -- with the assistance of the technical booth, to have, actually, all

20 map on our screen, because there are some neighbouring areas which might

21 be of importance. Could we have more zoom, to have all these page on the

22 screen.

23 No, no. I would prefer to have -- okay. It doesn't matter.

24 Q. [Interpretation] As far as I understand this map -- [In English] I

25 would need your assistance.

Page 5940

1 [Interpretation] As far as I understand this map, it's a sketch

2 of Samac, the town of Samac, and the surrounding villages and the area?

3 A. Yes. But it's not a precise map. Compared to the map you used

4 last time, that map was more precise and it was made by experts. This is

5 just a hand-drawn map.

6 Q. Yes, yes. This is not so important.

7 A. Well, for me, it is. Because since Domaljevac, it's not along the

8 river Sava. It's on the Sava. So we moved everything out a little bit

9 towards Obudovac. But everything should actually be a little closer to

10 the river. Just like these Croatian villages that you can see here.

11 Grebnice, Bazik, and so on.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Pantelic, could you please slow down.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you please wait. Each one of you do pause for

14 the interpreters, otherwise, the record won't make sense.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Would you be so kind and show us with the pointer

17 in this drawing of yours where the town of Samac is.

18 A. Well, this would be the town of Samac.

19 Q. Thank you. Can you now, please, indicate for us where the place

20 called Prud is.

21 A. Right here.

22 Q. Were there members of HVO in Prud?

23 A. Unfortunately, I wasn't present, so I don't know.

24 Q. Do you know whether there were any members there?

25 A. I don't know. If there were that many soldiers everywhere around,

Page 5941

1 then they probably would have been able to defend themselves and us.

2 Q. Can you please slow down, please.

3 A. No problem.

4 Q. Were there members of the HVO in Bazic and Domaljevac.

5 A. Could you please indicate Bazic and Domaljevac for us?

6 A. Well, here it is.

7 Q. Were there members of the HVO there?

8 A. I heard they were there. And when they were exchanged, I saw

9 in Orasje groups that moved around and who told me that they had been

10 present there.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

12 MR. WEINER: Yes. Your Honour, could there be any time

13 limitation? Are we talking prior to the takeover, at the time of the

14 takeover, while he was incarcerated? At what point?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because I thought the answer included at the

16 time he was released.

17 So yes, Mr. Pantelic, do particularise the time period to which

18 your questions pertain.

19 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. The first question was as follows: After April 1992, after 17th

21 of April, 1992, do you know whether in this area that you had just

22 indicated to us, Grebnice, Bazik, Domaljevac, there were any members of

23 the HVO?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. After you were exchanged, do you know whether in the region of

Page 5942

1 Domaljevac, Bazic, and Grebnice, there were members of the HVO?

2 A. Yes, I've heard about that.

3 Q. Can you please take a red marker and indicate for us the HVO in

4 this area where you marked Domaljevac, Bazik, Grbnica?

5 A. I wouldn't agree with you. I would move this closer to the Sava

6 river a bit.

7 MR. WEINER: I object.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, all he has is he's heard that there were

10 troops here. Now they're going to have him mark in that area as if he had

11 personally seen the troops there? That's not --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Within the competence of the witness.

13 MR. WEINER: Yes. If he has seen them, I have no objection. But

14 if it's just he's heard that there were troops there and at some point,

15 that it's not helpful, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

17 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Did you see members of the HVO in this area after you were

19 released?

20 A. No. I was in Orasje.

21 Q. Do you know whether members of the HVO were present in the area of

22 Bosanski Brod?

23 A. I know even less about that, because it's quite far away.

24 Q. Do you have any information on the presence of the HVO members in

25 the area of Modrica?

Page 5943

1 A. No. I know even less about that, because I didn't visit that

2 area.

3 Q. Do you know anything about the presence of the members of the

4 Muslim army in the Gradacac area?

5 A. I heard about that.

6 Q. Do you have any information concerning the fact that in this area

7 that you indicated here between Samac, Gradacac, and Bazik, there was

8 basically the front line in that area, wasn't there?

9 A. Yes. I heard about that.

10 Q. You were exchanged on what day, please?

11 A. I was exchanged on the 5th of November, 1992.

12 Q. You were exchanged where?

13 A. Dragalic.

14 Q. And then after that, you went where?

15 A. To Orasje.

16 Q. Did you give any statements to the police in Orasje at that time?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you give any statements later on to the police?

19 A. As far as I know, I did not. I spent only a short time there.

20 Q. How long did you stay in that area?

21 A. I couldn't tell you, but it was a brief period of time.

22 Q. Well, how brief?

23 A. Very brief. I can't tell you exactly. Five, ten days. Perhaps

24 15 days. Perhaps only two days. This means that upon arriving there,

25 shortly thereafter I went to Croatia to have a medical examination. My

Page 5944

1 medical condition was very poor at the time.

2 Q. And you didn't go back afterwards?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. After you recovered, you went to one of the Western European

5 countries, didn't you?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. You were not a member of the HVO. At least, I suppose you

8 weren't.

9 A. No.

10 Q. In that case, it's a lie.

11 A. I don't know what you mean.

12 Q. Can you please take a look at page 14 of your 1994 statement. Can

13 you please find in paragraph number 3 of this page, a sentence saying,

14 "All of that took place on the same day on November 5th." It's in the

15 middle of the third paragraph.

16 A. Just a moment, please.

17 Yes, I've found it.

18 Q. Please read it for us.

19 A. Do you want me to read it out loud?

20 Q. Yes, I do.

21 A. "All that took place on the same day on the 5th of November.

22 After I was released" -- "All of that took place on the same day, on

23 November 5th. After my release, I wasn't able to leave Orasje. Instead I

24 had to go back to the Bosnian HVO army."

25 Q. Please stop there. Can you please explain to the Chamber what is

Page 5945

1 the truth? Is it true that you were not a member of the HVO or what you

2 said to the Prosecutor in 1994 is actually true?

3 A. I was not a member of the HVO, and I can explain. The way it's

4 written here means that I wasn't able to go directly to Croatia. It

5 doesn't say here whether I stayed there for three months or two months.

6 And this other thing about the position is not clear to me. I didn't

7 spend a single day at the front.

8 Q. Thank you. So you were never at the front.

9 A. No, not for a single day.

10 Q. Can you please read the last paragraph on that page for us.

11 A. "As I have said, while I was a soldier at the front, I was allowed

12 to go" --

13 Q. Please slow down for us. The paragraph that gives with the

14 following words: "I went back to the front line with the HVO." Please be

15 calm and concentrate.

16 A. Well, I'm very concentrated, unlike you.

17 Q. Please read for us.

18 A. No problem.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Witness, when you start reading, read slowly,

20 and please don't be rude to counsel.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. I simply wanted to

22 respond in kind.

23 Should I read now?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead with what counsel has asked

25 you to read, and read slowly.

Page 5946

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I went back to the positions with

2 the HVO. Out of five people that were released from the camp, just like I

3 was, the three of us were sent back to the positions, which is where they

4 probably are today, because they were unable to get papers. When I say

5 "positions," I mean positions or front line between Orasje and Bosanski

6 Samac. The front line is about 2 kilometres away from Bosanski Samac. So

7 this is an absurdity, because this is not the front line of Bosanski

8 Samac, Orasje, because it's 2 kilometre away.

9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. If you don't mind, I simply asked you to read this out calmly for

11 us and not give any comments.

12 A. All right.

13 Q. Please go ahead.

14 A. Should I read on?

15 Q. Please wait. I need to check the transcript, because I want to

16 make sure that all the information we need is in there.

17 [In English] You can read after this sentence, which is "The front

18 line is about 2 kilometres away from Bosnia-Herzegovina." So next

19 sentence is as follows -- without any comment, please. Next sentence

20 from your statement, please.

21 A. So the front line is approximately 2 kilometres from

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. "Some of the prisoners that were exchanged in Tuzla

23 and fought in Travnik, I'm one of the lucky ones that was able to get

24 out. On Bosanski Samac, Orasje front line I stayed until the 5th of

25 January, 1994, when I was able to arrange for myself to travel. I was in

Page 5947

1 104th Samac Brigade of the HVO army, as I've said before. While I was a

2 soldier at the front line, I was allowed to go to Croatia and fix my

3 teeth, because my teeth had been pulled out in the camp. I was also

4 arranged to visit my parents. I was given permission to go there. I had

5 a ticket which I was able to pick together with the eight packages, but I

6 wasn't allowed to wear my uniform."

7 Q. [Interpretation] Would you please pause there for us. In 1994

8 when you gave this statement to the Prosecutor, did you give the statement

9 of your own free will? Did anyone from the Prosecution harass you or give

10 you any kind of promises?

11 A. Well, continue. What did you want to say?

12 Q. Well, this was a question.

13 A. No, nobody harassed me. I gave the statement on my own free

14 will.

15 Q. You signed this statement, at least the English version of it,

16 didn't you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So this statement was given two years after the unfortunate events

19 that you experienced in 1992; isn't that so?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So your memory was quite fresh at the time, wasn't it?

22 A. Yes. Just as it is now.

23 Q. Can you please explain to the Chamber what is the truth in fact.

24 Can you please clarify for us and tell us whether you were a member of the

25 HVO or not.

Page 5948

1 A. I've already told you that I was not, and I can explain. I was

2 in Croatia. I have my refugee papers. I have all the documents that can

3 prove where I was employed and so on. So if you will allow me, I can show

4 this to this Chamber.

5 Q. Well, the problem that we have here is your statement. Did you --

6 what you just read from your statement in 1994, is this true or not?

7 A. I'm saying for the third time, it is not true.

8 Q. Well, why did you lie in 1994, then?

9 MR. WEINER: Objection.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

11 MR. WEINER: Objection to this last statement, characterisation.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't understand because it seems to be a

13 contradiction.

14 MR. WEINER: He can ask him about the contradiction. He's

15 accusing him of lying. He can say, "Why is it incorrect?" He claims he's

16 got papers. He can ask him why it's incorrect, what's the reason for

17 the contradiction.

18 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pantelic, perhaps you can ask him -- you've

19 given us two versions now. One version is probably a lie; which one?

20 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Well, you've just heard His Honour Judge Singh: One of these

22 versions is a lie. Can you tell us which statement is a lie? Is your

23 statement from 1994 a lie or what you're saying now a lie?

24 A. If you allow, I wouldn't call this a lie, because this has been

25 translated many times and I'm not sure in which context it was

Page 5949

1 translated. As I've said, I have papers, I have arguments, I have

2 witnesses who can confirm where I was at the time. This means that I

3 have documents, witnesses. So please go ahead and tell me what do you

4 want me to demonstrate here.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps the problem here is that the way the

6 statement which you have just been reading is understood is that you were

7 a member of the HVO and you were even on the front line, as you have read

8 yourself. Now, if you are saying that the translation, or whatever,

9 perhaps the translation was wrong, then you better explain that.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for example, I read there in

11 the statement that it said that I considered myself lucky that I was able

12 to leave. And then all of a sudden it says that I was at the front.

13 Perhaps what I originally said was that I considered myself lucky that I

14 didn't have to go to the front. I don't know how it was translated. As

15 I've said, I have papers that I can show to the Chamber. My -- these

16 papers are at home, but if necessary, I can provide them to you tomorrow.

17 And these papers can explain where I was and what I did.

18 It says here that I was at the front line until the 5th of

19 January, 1994, when in fact I arrived in the Netherlands on the 1st of

20 January and I reported on the 14th of January. Which means that there are

21 a lot of things here that don't click together.

22 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. However, we are now talking about the fact whether you were a

24 member of the HVO unit or not. This is the only thing that we are

25 concerned with right now. So what is a lie? Is a part of your statement

Page 5950

1 from 1994 a lie, the part where you say that you were a member of the HVO,

2 or what you are telling the Chamber now is a lie, what you are telling now

3 about yourself not being a member of the HVO? Please tell us what is it.

4 A. I wouldn't call this a lie. I would call this an error. A lie

5 and an error are two different things. So I can explain that this is an

6 error. I don't know how this error came about, perhaps at the time when

7 they were translating it, or if we perhaps remind ourselves under which

8 conditions these statements were given in 1994. So that in itself could

9 lead to an error. And there are other illogical things in this

10 statement. We are here now talking about different things, wood and

11 metal, you know. These are two completely unrelated things, and I don't

12 know how they came to be included in the statement.

13 Q. During your compulsory military service, you served in the

14 engineering corps, didn't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you were expert for mines and explosives, weren't you?

17 A. Well, I wouldn't call myself an expert, but yes, I had some

18 knowledge about it.

19 Q. While you were serving your -- in the military during your

20 compulsory military service, did you work with mines and explosives?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you were arrested in the Samac MUP, did anybody question you

23 about your participation in the armed formations in Samac?

24 A. Yes. Among other things, they questioned me about that as well.

25 Q. You were tried by a military court in Bijeljina, weren't you?

Page 5951

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Based on the criminal report of the police chief of Bosanski

3 Samac, this case was taken over by the military prosecutor; isn't that

4 so?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And after the -- after certain proceedings were launched, the case

7 was suspended; isn't that so?

8 A. Yes. But it took several years.

9 MR. WEINER: I'd object. That's not correct. The case was

10 dismissed.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't get your --

12 MR. WEINER: The case was dismissed, not suspended. Dismissed

13 for no evidence.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. You are trying to -- yes. It wasn't

15 correct to say that this -- the case was suspended.

16 MR. WEINER: It was dismissed for insufficient evidence.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. That is the position of the Prosecution, as

18 far as the case goes.

19 Yes, Mr. Pantelic. The Prosecution's position is that this case

20 was actually dismissed.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Could you bear with me just a moment, please, I

22 have to consult with my colleagues about these documents so we can clarify

23 that. Although I don't think it's of so big importance whether it was

24 dismissed or suspended, in the particular case. But, please.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

Page 5952

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Well, it is not of

3 significant importance whether this case was suspended or dismissed.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: So you don't take issue with the Prosecution's

5 position that it was dismissed.

6 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, according to my information, which is not

7 a matter that we can discuss with this particular witness -- according to

8 my information, the case was suspended due to the fact that he was

9 exchanged. That's all. But this witness obviously cannot be informed

10 about this legal fact or a mere -- it's a matter for evidentiary -- one of

11 the submissions, we can raise that in final submission or whatever.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MR. PANTELIC: I don't want to waste time now.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would you allow me a

17 comment?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No. If the Prosecution think it is important, they

19 will re-examine you. They will ask a question about that, and then you

20 will be allowed to explain.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Sir, in 1992, owing to some family inheritance, you were

24 considered a fairly wealthy man, weren't you?

25 A. Well, I wouldn't call myself a wealthy man, but my father comes

Page 5953

1 from one, yes. But I had a decent life. I had a good standard.

2 Q. Can you tell us what was your average salary in March and April of

3 1992.

4 A. Between 1500 and 2.000 German marks. And at that time minimum

5 wage was about 460 German Marks. So compared to that, I had a very good

6 earning.

7 Q. So you would describe yourself as a reasonable man who has no

8 tendencies to exaggerate.

9 A. Yes. And I can prove that.

10 Q. Can you please turn to page 6 of your 1994 statement. But before

11 you read the relevant paragraph, as far as I remember, you said that in

12 1992, you drove a Ford Capri.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And it was seized or confiscated by the paramilitaries.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What year was the car made in?

17 A. I think it was an '80 something. I don't know exactly what year.

18 Q. How much did it cost at that time in April in 1992?

19 A. Between seven and eight thousand German marks.

20 Q. Thank you. Would you please kindly read the following sentence,

21 in the middle of the second paragraph, which begins with the following

22 words: "Like a true Bosnian."

23 A. "As a Bosnia, there was not one evening I would not go out without

24 1.000 marks in my pocket. I have lost all this because it was stolen

25 from me. And I -- the Serbs -- I have lost all this because it was stolen

Page 5954

1 from me. The Serbs probably killed others for more money. My car cost

2 73.000 German marks and they took that from me as well."

3 Q. What you have just read out is not true.

4 A. No. It could be 7.300 German marks. So it could be between seven

5 and eight thousand German marks. So this is wrong.

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

8 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, for the record, I've discussed the

9 statement with some of the Defence attorneys. It is illogical in places.

10 It is filled with errors. It is not -- doesn't even follow any order at

11 times. If they -- if you want it as an exhibit, I'll turn it in. He's

12 testified 7300 marks. I think twice he's testified to that. It says

13 73.000. We've never raised the issue of 73.000. He's trying to be

14 impeached with something that's definitely mistaken.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, Mr. Weiner, if a document is given to the

16 Defence counsel as a statement made by the witness, what do you expect the

17 Defence counsel to do with it?

18 MR. WEINER: Defence counsel actually spoke to me and -- actually,

19 the other counsel had spoken to me and we all had a laugh over it with

20 some of these mistakes, including that one. I just want to notify the

21 Court he's being impeached by errors, by an error on that particular --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, I hope the Prosecution will do a better job in

23 re-examination and also explain it, because the Defence counsel is

24 supposed to rely on what is given to them as a statement made by the

25 witness. And then if, as it is happening now, that there are some

Page 5955

1 statements which are wrong, then it's up to the witness to explain. And

2 you can do that in re-examination.

3 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, because -- not to mention this

5 is international criminal court, this is a statement of around 16 pages,

6 which is quite extended statement and very serious, due to the fact that

7 it was made in 1994. And that was my approach, that this is a really

8 important -- probably this statement was one of the, I would say, elements

9 in puzzle for this indictment. So it's obvious it's very important to

10 proceed with this kind of questioning. Thank you.

11 Q. [Interpretation] So you were also able to describe yourself as a

12 man who was well informed about the events in Samac in 1992 in March and

13 April.

14 A. Well informed? I don't know what you mean by that. But I was

15 well informed. I knew a lot, in view of the fact that I was working at

16 such a job.

17 Q. And you were curious. You knew a lot of things about your fellow

18 citizens at that time.

19 A. I wasn't curious, but I noticed some strange doings by my fellow

20 citizens. So this is something that drew my attention.

21 Q. The atmosphere in Samac was tense, wasn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So Serbs went to Serb restaurants; Muslims went to Muslim

24 restaurants; and Croats went to Croat restaurants; is that true?

25 A. No.

Page 5956

1 Q. So all the citizens of Samac, regardless of their ethnicity, went

2 to restaurants and had interactions, socialised. There was no

3 differentiation?

4 A. Except for Cafe AS. Mostly the people of Serb ethnicity went to

5 that cafe, except for members of other ethnicities who happened to be

6 members of the 4th Detachment. I'm talking about the period immediately

7 before the war.

8 Q. And other cafes which were owned by Croats and Muslims, the guests

9 were of different ethnic groups. They were multi-ethnic.

10 A. Yes, more or less. I don't know what you mean by that, that they

11 were all Serbs or Muslims or Croats. But there were cafes where all --

12 members of all three groups went. For example, there was a Muslim-owned

13 cafe which was owned by Adic. So that was frequented mostly by people of

14 Muslim ethnicity. But this doesn't mean that it wasn't also frequented by

15 Serb -- people of Serb ethnicity. The cafe where I worked was

16 multi-ethnic, the place where I worked, the restaurant pizzeria. I don't

17 know whether they were spies or something.

18 Q. You are a fairly well-informed person. You knew quite well what

19 was going on in the town. We're talking about March and April 1992, as

20 you've said yourself.

21 A. Had I known what was going on, I would have left the town. I

22 didn't know what was going on. I did notice certain things, however, that

23 were being done by my fellow citizens of Serb ethnicity.

24 Q. Excellent. Let's look at page 2 of your statement.

25 The last passage before the end, the sentence starts: "I know

Page 5957

1 these things because of the way we talked with each other." Could you

2 please read from that sentence.

3 A. "I know these things because of the way we talked with each

4 other. For example, we would say -- "

5 Q. Could you please go more slowly -- slowly. Thank you.

6 A. "So for example, we would say, "Did you know this woman was having

7 an affair with this man?' I could draw a map and point out every home. I

8 could tell you their names, their date of birth, everything. All these

9 Serb soldiers, I saw at the front. I knew who they were, what kind of

10 cars they had, what kind of clothing they wore. Everyone in Bosanski

11 Samac knows these things."

12 Q. Thank you very much. So you stated this in 1994.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So you were involved in the lives of your fellow citizens, who was

15 doing what, these kinds of things. This is something that you were

16 interested in?

17 A. Yes. This context --

18 Q. No, no. I haven't asked anything yet.

19 When you asked for asylum, did you provide a statement about the

20 things that happened in Bosanski Samac and the region?

21 A. This is a private matter, and I wouldn't talk about that, and I

22 don't know how you know whether I have been granted asylum or not.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Well, maybe, Your Honours, we can go into private

24 session.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can you ask the people responsible for

Page 5958

1 changing the sessions to go into private session.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Just for a couple of minutes.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 5959

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we are now in open session.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

15 Q. [Interpretation] To which police did you provide a statement in

16 the period between November 1992 and September 1994, and when precisely?

17 A. I gave a statement to the INTERPOL.

18 Q. In that statement, did you mention the events in Samac?

19 A. Yes, amongst other things.

20 Q. Did you inform the Prosecution about that statement you gave to

21 the INTERPOL?

22 A. I don't remember, but I think that I did. I don't remember.

23 Q. When you gave a statement to the Prosecution in 1994 until today,

24 did you give statements to anybody else in connection with the events in

25 Samac?

Page 5960

1 A. I didn't understand exactly from which date when did I give a

2 statement.

3 Q. When you gave a statement to the Prosecution, from September 1994

4 until now, until today.

5 A. I think not. I don't remember the months exactly, but I gave my

6 first statement in September for the INTERPOL. But I don't know whether I

7 gave a statement to the Prosecution or to the INTERPOL first. But I think

8 I gave a statement to both in the same year.

9 Q. Did you give a statement to the Prosecution in the year 2000?

10 A. Yes, to the Prosecution but not to the INTERPOL, not to any other

11 bodies.

12 Q. During your stay in Orasje in 1992, did you provide a statement to

13 Dragan Lukac, the chief of police?

14 A. No. No, I don't remember. I don't think I even saw him.

15 Q. Do you know Dragan Lukac?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. When did you meet him?

18 A. I don't know. I've known him for a very long time, perhaps for

19 20 years. I don't know.

20 Q. When was the last time you saw him?

21 A. The last time I saw him was a couple of months ago.

22 Q. Where?

23 A. In the Netherlands, as well as in Bosnia, amongst other places.

24 Q. And you discussed this case?

25 A. No. We have better things to talk about.

Page 5961

1 Q. Did you give a statement to representatives of the Muslim

2 information agency, AID?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you provide a statement to representatives of the Muslim

5 army?

6 A. I don't know that there was a Muslim army, but no.

7 Q. My mistake. Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, B and H army.

8 A. No.

9 MR. PANTELIC: I don't have any further questions, Your Honour.

10 Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: You're welcome.

12 Re-examination, Mr. Weiner?

13 MR. WEINER: Good afternoon.

14 Re-examined by Mr. Weiner:

15 Q. Good afternoon. I'd like to discuss some of the issues that

16 were raised with you on cross-examination. Let's begin with your

17 exchange. There was some discussion of that. Prior to being exchanged in

18 November, did anyone ever ask you whether you wanted to be exchanged at

19 that time, just prior to being exchanged in November of 1992?

20 A. We talked about two things. Nobody asked me directly. I mean,

21 they asked me, but this wasn't my wish. I was forced to. So I was happy

22 to leave that hell. But basically, I wasn't happy to be leaving my town

23 and my parents, so I was forced. But I had to choose the lesser of two

24 evils.

25 Q. How old were you at that time?

Page 5962

1 A. I was 23.

2 Q. And at the time of your exchange, where were the members of your

3 family, your parents, your brother? Where were they?

4 A. My father and I were exchanged on the same day. My mother was

5 exchanged about a month and a half after us, and my brother escaped via

6 Serbia even a year later. So I had to leave my mother and my brother

7 behind.

8 Q. Prior to your exchange, were you able to speak to your family and

9 discuss the situation where you were going to be leaving the area?

10 A. No, in view of the fact that I was detained in the camp. I didn't

11 even say goodbye to them.

12 Q. Where did you want to go at the time of the exchange, if you could

13 have gone somewhere and left the camp?

14 A. You mean when I left the camp, where I wanted to go?

15 Q. Yes. If you had the opportunity, where did you want to go?

16 A. When I left Bosnia, when I was exchanged, I intended to go. And

17 this wish came true. I wanted to go to a third country.

18 Q. Okay. And were you given any option of where you could go?

19 A. No.

20 Q. No one from Bosanski Samac sat down and discussed the possibility

21 of your exchange with you in November of 1992?

22 A. No.

23 Q. There were a number of questions concerning the interrogations.

24 What was your condition during those three interrogations, both physically

25 and emotionally?

Page 5963

1 A. I was in such a state that I was carried on a stretcher. That was

2 the state I was in. I was broken up.

3 Q. But during the interrogations at the SUP, what was your

4 condition?

5 A. I was in a very bad state. I had been beaten.

6 Q. When had you been beaten in relation to those interrogations?

7 A. This would mostly happen before or after the interrogation.

8 Q. During the interrogations, did anyone ask you what happened to

9 you, why you were beaten, why you were in that condition?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, did you have an option whether or not to give a statement

12 during the interrogation, or to even attend an interrogation?

13 A. No. I was coerced.

14 Q. Well, did anyone ever tell you that you didn't have to speak with

15 us, you can just stay in your cell?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Why didn't you refuse to give a statement?

18 A. Because I didn't dare. I was afraid for my life and for the lives

19 of my family.

20 Q. Now, you indicated that you signed three statements and three

21 blanks, blank forms; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you asked to sign those statements or ordered to do so, or

24 told to do so?

25 A. I was ordered, while being beaten. I also have to say that while

Page 5964

1 the -- or as the blank statements were being signed, I was being beaten.

2 And -- but during the interrogation by the police inspectors, I wasn't

3 beaten.

4 Q. The police officers - let's just get this straight - asked you to

5 sign three statements?

6 A. Amongst other things. I can't hear -- the army and Serb special

7 forces members were also present, along with the interrogators, the

8 investigators.

9 Q. Who had you sign the three blank statements?

10 A. I was forced by members of the special units who were from

11 Serbia. Amongst others, Laki, Neso, Lugar, Crni.

12 Q. Did you ever inquire why you had to sign any of these six

13 statements?

14 A. No, I didn't dare, since they were very savage. They didn't

15 really look for a reason in order to abuse anybody.

16 Q. Could you have refused to sign these statements?

17 A. Yes, I could. But that could have cost me my life. So in other

18 words, I couldn't really refuse.

19 Q. Were these statements voluntary, these six statements that -- the

20 three blanks that you signed and the three others that you signed for

21 the police inspectors?

22 A. Nothing was voluntary in the camp, not even going to the

23 bathroom.

24 MR. WEINER: Can we look at the two statements? Would the usher

25 please show the witness D28/3, the statement of March -- I'm sorry, May

Page 5965

1 8th, 1992.

2 Your Honour, do we take the break at quarter of or at 4.00?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: We're supposed to take the break at 15.45.

4 We seem to have -- the clock in the courtroom is -- is 15.45.

5 Yes, I think -- I can see that from here. So we shall take our break and

6 continue at 16.15 hours.

7 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. Re-examination.

10 MR. WEINER:

11 Q. All right, sir. Let's go to D28/3 for ID, the statement of May

12 8th, 1992. Could you read the first line of the section that you said is

13 not true or you did not provide to the police.

14 A. Sometime at the end of 1991, my mother, and then the name of my

15 mother, told me that she had registered me in the SDA party. She informed

16 me of this, and I agreed with this. So from then on, what is stated here

17 is not true.

18 Q. What about the next line: "I did not attend party meetings or pay

19 membership fees"? Did you provide that information?

20 A. So from this point here, I didn't say this. What is written here,

21 I did not say. I would not have said something as stupid as that I

22 provided financing for my mother and my father. They had their own

23 earnings, so I was not responsible for them.

24 Q. No, no. What I -- let's take the sentence, "I did not attend

25 party meetings or pay membership fees." Did you say that to the

Page 5966

1 interrogators?

2 A. I don't know whether I said this. But what is stated here

3 underneath, I did not say. So from here -- somewhere from here until the

4 end of the page is something that I did not say at all.

5 Q. All right. Let's go to the next paragraph. So the section, "I

6 did not attend party meetings or pay party membership fees," just that

7 sentence, just that sentence alone, do you recall saying that?

8 A. Perhaps I did. As I said but not in this order.

9 Q. All right. Just one sentence at a time.

10 The next paragraph. I will read it, and you tell me whether or

11 not you said it: "I do not remember the exact date, but it must have been

12 about two months ago, when Ratif Atic, also known as Rajec, stopped me in

13 the street and told me to come to his cafe when I had time. I went to see

14 him two or three days later and he asked me whether I would like join a

15 newly established SDA unit and be issued a weapon. I told him that I

16 worked as a waiter to support my parents and that I did not have the time

17 for such nonsense. I did not show any interest later and was never called

18 again."

19 That paragraph which was read to you, did you say that to the

20 interrogators on or about May 8th, 1992?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right. Let us continue, that same paragraph. My next

23 question is: Is that true? Did those things happen relating to Ratif

24 Atic which are listed in this statement, that statement I just read to

25 you, did that happen? Not whether or not you were asked; did that happen?

Page 5967

1 A. No. I didn't see the man, and he didn't ask me anything.

2 Q. Okay. Let us look at the next paragraph. I will read it. "About

3 20 days ago when the news broke about the formation of the TO (Territorial

4 Defence) in Bosanski Samac, a man nicknamed Ibela stopped me in the street

5 and asked me if I wanted to join the TO in Bosanski Samac. He said that

6 the unit would consist of Serbs, Croats, and Muslims. I accepted his

7 offer without hesitation, and I even told him that my brother, Safet

8 Dagovic, would join too, although I had not consulted him first."

9 Did you provide that information to the interrogators on or about

10 May 8th, 1992?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Next question: That paragraph which you claim you did not

13 provide, is that information true or false?

14 A. False.

15 Q. So it never happened.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you. Could we now look at the next statement, D29/3 for

18 ID. Did you get a chance to read it?

19 What is the last line of the information that you provided? Could

20 you please read that last line.

21 A. I will read the last sentence. "I also would like to state that I

22 did not participate in any way in the formation of the SDA."

23 Q. Okay. The next sentence, let me read the remaining part of that

24 paragraph. "I agreed to join the BH TO two or three days before the war

25 broke out in our municipality because Muhamed Bicic, also known as Beca,

Page 5968

1 asked me to join and explained to me that the unit would consist of Serb,

2 Croats, and Muslims and that Zoran Blagojevic would be a commander of the

3 Bosanski Samac unit. However, when I realised who the members were, I did

4 not take any part of it. I was told that my name was on the list of

5 volunteers for the defence of the town, but I cannot explain how it got

6 there."

7 Did you provide that information to the police interrogators?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Is the information concerning Muhamed Bicic and Ibrahim Salkic

10 true, or did that in fact happen? Did it happen, or did it not happen?

11 A. It did not happen.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Last week, during cross-examination by

13 Mr. Zecevic, a question arose concerning your arrest. And two of the

14 Judges, Judge Singh and Judge Williams, asked you questions concerning

15 your arrest, and we never had an answer.

16 Our question to you, based on the Court's question, is: Why were

17 you arrested, if you know, on or about May 5, 1992?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Did any of the police officers, soldiers, ever tell you why you

20 were being arrested?

21 A. They never told me directly why. The only reason was that I

22 differed from them, probably.

23 Q. When you say you differed from them, what do you mean?

24 A. Well, I wasn't of the same ethnicity as them, and I also wasn't a

25 member of the 4th Detachment or any other paramilitary formation.

Page 5969

1 Q. Was your arrest the result of any criminal misconduct on your

2 part?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Your fellow citizens who were held with you at the SUP, at the

5 police station, were those persons members -- were those persons members

6 of the military, or were they civilians?

7 A. All of us were civilians.

8 Q. Of what ethnic group were all these people that were being held at

9 the SUP?

10 A. People who were held in the SUP were Bosniaks, Muslims, or Croats,

11 Catholics.

12 Q. Why were they arrested, if you know?

13 A. Well, I suppose for the same reason as I was, which means that

14 they were of a different ethnicity.

15 Q. Why were those persons beaten, if you know?

16 A. I don't know. I didn't see a reason to beat them, but they were

17 beaten. They beat us, rather.

18 Q. And why were you beaten?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. And the persons who held you and beat you, of what ethnic group

21 were they?

22 A. They were Serbs, Orthodox.

23 Q. Now, there was some talk concerning the vehicle which you owned.

24 Could you please describe that vehicle to this Chamber.

25 A. That vehicle was Ford Capri. As I've stated before, it was some

Page 5970

1 ten years old at the time. The price I paid for that car was between 7

2 and 8 thousand German marks, so it wasn't 73.000 marks, as was written in

3 the statements. I don't know of any Ford vehicle costing that much. What

4 I said I stated clearly, everybody knows what car I drove at the time, so

5 I couldn't have said anything that wasn't true.

6 Q. Now, sir, what condition was the car in, in April of 1992?

7 A. It was in good condition.

8 Q. And what happened to it?

9 A. My car was driven by a member of the 4th Detachment. I named that

10 man last time, but I can repeat here that his name is Markovic, Nino. He

11 was the son of Borivoje, known as Smudj. I saw him drive my car. And it

12 was in a very bad condition.

13 Q. Did anyone ask for your permission to take the car, or did anyone

14 pay you for the car?

15 A. No. That was all done while they beat me, which means that the

16 car was forcibly confiscated from me, together with the car's papers.

17 Q. Now, sir, there was some talk concerning forced labour during

18 cross-examination. And there was an indication that your brother worked a

19 certain number of days. Was your brother ever paid for any of the work

20 which he performed?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you ever paid for any of the work which you performed?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were your parents ever paid for any of the work which they were

25 forced to perform?

Page 5971

1 A. No.

2 Q. Let us move on. You were released or exchanged in November of

3 1992. Could you please tell us what you did from November through the end

4 of -- from November 1992 through the end of 1993.

5 A. After the exchange, I went to Orasje. After a certain time, but

6 brief amount of time, which means just a few days, I went to Croatia. In

7 Croatia, I started working in Istria to be precise, in Novi Grad. I

8 worked there as a waiter, and I can say with certainty when it comes to

9 these dates and my alleged serving in the HVO, I can tell you that I can

10 show you a document which shows that I was, on the 8th of December, in

11 Croatia. And it's not true that I left Croatia on the -- for the first

12 time on the 5th of January, 1994, because I, in fact, arrived in the

13 Netherlands on the 1st of January. So that is not true. If you will

14 allow me, I can show you the document.

15 Q. Do you have it with you?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, for the --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 MR. WEINER: He has ...

20 JUDGE MUMBA: What document is it?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a document that was issued

22 to me by the International Red Cross in Zagreb on the 8th of December,

23 1992, which means that it was issued to me personally. And that was a few

24 days after I was exchanged, perhaps a month after I was exchanged. This

25 is the document I'm talking about.

Page 5972

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, maybe you should look at it --

2 MR. WEINER: Yes.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: -- and see whether or not we should proceed.

4 MR. WEINER: You can show it to Defence counsel.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you will allow me.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, the witness wanted to say something

7 else.

8 MR. WEINER: I'm going to take him through the document in a

9 moment.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

11 MR. WEINER: [Microphone not activated] Could that document be

12 marked for ID?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have a number for it, for

14 identification purposes only.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It's P47 ter ID.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

17 MR. WEINER:

18 Q. Sir, could you describe the document, please. Describe it to the

19 Court, tell us what it's about. Where the -- describe the document first,

20 and then I'll ask you a few more questions about it.

21 A. This is a document which confirms that I, as is stated here,

22 Dagovic, Esad, was detained in a camp in Bosanski Samac where I was

23 registered on the 13th of May, 1992 in prison in Bosanski Samac. It also

24 says that I was regularly visited from the 13th of May, 1992 until the 5th

25 of November, 1992. I was released on the 5th of November, and this

Page 5973

1 document was issued to me on the 8th of December in Zagreb, which

2 basically denies that I left Orasje in 1994, because Zagreb is located in

3 Croatia.

4 Q. Okay. Sir, if the usher could move the document down, and we

5 could see -- and could you show the Court where it's dated, please.

6 A. The document was issued to me on the 8th of December, 1992.

7 Q. And where was it issued to you?

8 A. The document was issued to me in Zagreb by the International Red

9 Cross.

10 Q. And what have you done with that document since that date? Has it

11 been in your possession, or ...?

12 A. The document was in my possession the whole time.

13 Q. And that handwriting above the date, it looks like January 5th, I

14 think, 1994. Whose handwriting is that -- first, whose handwriting is

15 that? It looks like pencil marking.

16 A. This is my handwriting. I wrote this now, during the break,

17 because we heard here that I had stated in my previous statement that I

18 had left Orasje on the 5th of January, 1994, which is absurd because I was

19 issued this certificate on the 8th of December, 1992, which is two years

20 prior to that.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, I wonder whether actually it could go

23 back on the ELMO for one second.

24 MR. WEINER: Sure.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And I'm interested in the lower part with the

Page 5974

1 little boxes. On the left-hand side, "was released on 5th of November,

2 1992," and then we have three possibilities. And if my eyesight is

3 correct, is there a mark in the middle box?

4 MR. WEINER: That's --

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Maybe you could ask the witness that question,

6 and also what it means, "according to the authorities versus ICRC auspices

7 or according to a/m person." Just for the sake of clarity. I'm uncertain

8 as to what that means.

9 MR. WEINER:

10 Q. Do you see the portion of the letter or the document that Judge

11 Williams is referring to, Mr. Dagovic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. There are three boxes. Box number 1 says: "under the ICRC

14 auspices." Box number 2 says: "According to the authorities." And box

15 number 3 says: "According to a/m person." Are any of those three boxes

16 X'ed or checked off?

17 A. Yes. The one saying, "according to the authorities."

18 Q. Okay. Do you know the reason that that box was checked off, sir?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what is the reason that it was checked off?

21 A. Well, if we look at this text, we'll see that this applies to the

22 situation. So it can be either a case where a person is released under

23 the ICRC auspices, it could apply to a person who was registered in the

24 camp. So if somebody was in the camp and was not exchanged, then this

25 item would apply.

Page 5975

1 The other item, according to the authorities, means that based

2 on what the authorities, or rather, the International Red Cross, said,

3 this is the situation.

4 And the third item applies to a case where this would be issued

5 based on the statement of the person in question. So that would be a

6 third situation.

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, I'm not exactly clear that I

8 understand the second and third possibilities.

9 MR. WEINER: At this point, Your Honour, I can see if we can

10 get some sort of clarification. I could only speculate as to what some of

11 these means -- some of these different options concern. I probably have

12 some different views than he would have and -- but I will see what I

13 could -- I'll see what we can do on this matter.

14 Thank you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, I know it's just been marked for

16 identification, but as our usual practice is, it's to be kept by the

17 registry staff. Does he need it? Because then we can just get a

18 photostat copy, because we have all seen the original.

19 MR. WEINER:

20 Q. Mr. Dagovic, do you need that document, or would a copy be

21 sufficient, or do you need the original and we'll keep a copy? What is

22 you preference, sir?

23 A. I have an original as well. This is a copy. You can keep the

24 copy.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

Page 5976

1 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

2 One moment, Your Honour, please.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

6 Q. Now, sir, you're in Zagreb, and what do you do next? You go see

7 the Red Cross in Zagreb in January. What's your next step?

8 A. First I went to my friend's in Krusevica in Slavonia. I spent a

9 certain period of time there. Then through my friend, I found out that

10 certificates were being issued in Zagreb, so I went there, and I got a

11 certificate. After that, I went to Istria, where I worked, and where I

12 was registered, and I regularly collected my aid payments, the aid that

13 was provided for refugees. And I have the originals of all of those

14 documents, but they're at home. So I could obtain them by tomorrow.

15 Q. And what was the time period that -- actually, first, who were you

16 receiving aid payments from, from what government?

17 A. From the Croatian authorities in Croatia, i.e., from Caritas.

18 Q. Now, how long were you receiving aid from the Croatian

19 government?

20 A. It went on until I left for the Netherlands. So it lasted

21 throughout 1993. Until the end of 1993, because by 1994, I had left for

22 the Netherlands.

23 Q. Who were you doing during the year 1993?

24 A. I worked in a bar in Istria in Novi Grad, as a waiter.

25 Q. And during what time period did you work? Did you work the whole

Page 5977

1 year, or a portion of the year?

2 A. I worked the whole year.

3 Q. Do you have any payslips or documentation indicating that you

4 worked that year at this certain bar in Istria -- I'm sorry, in Novi

5 Grad?

6 A. No, I don't. But I could obtain it. I could call the owner of

7 that bar, if he still has those documents - and I believe that he probably

8 does - so I could get them for you fairly quickly.

9 Q. Now, these documents that you have, the -- let's go back to the

10 other one, the refugee aid payments. Do they indicate any address or

11 place you were living at the time?

12 A. Yes. It was Buraj 4 in Novi Grad, i.e. Alto camp Marida.

13 That was where I was registered.

14 Q. And how long were you living at that address?

15 A. I lived there until the end of 1993, until -- right up until I

16 left for Holland.

17 Q. Sir, what is your current immigration status?

18 A. I have Dutch citizenship.

19 Q. Is that based on asylum?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What is the basis?

22 A. The basis is three years of continuous residence in the

23 Netherlands.

24 Q. And are you currently working?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5978

1 Q. And how long have you been a working resident?

2 A. Since 1995, I think.

3 Q. Now, these papers that you have relating to the aid that you

4 received, where are they?

5 A. They are at my house.

6 Q. And are they in some certain location that you could get them

7 here, to this Tribunal?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when could you have them here?

10 A. If you would like a copy, you could obtain them this evening. But

11 if you needed originals, then I would need one or two days for that.

12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, at this point I have no further

13 questions. However, I wouldn't mind having the witness produce those

14 documents, since we do have -- since this is a search for the truth, I

15 think he should have the opportunity to provide those documents and see

16 what it says that -- relating to the aid that he was receiving at a

17 certain address within Croatia.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There's no problem. It's up to the

19 Prosecution to arrange with the witness when he can be available to

20 produce them.

21 MR. WEINER: And I think it would be helpful also that he produces

22 them and also be present again in the courtroom to hand them in and

23 explain them.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes.

25 MR. WEINER: So even though, at least at this point of the

Page 5979

1 re-direct examination, I'm completed, I wouldn't mind the opportunity just

2 to finish, if it would be five minutes, in having him produce these

3 documents.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That can be arranged with the witness.

5 I see Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I just wanted, first of all, to

7 object. But then I also would like now to add something to what the

8 Prosecutor said. I believe that if the witness will provide the evidence,

9 as -- in the same way that he provided this document a little while ago, I

10 would like to have the Defence -- for the Defence to receive permission to

11 cross-examine based on these documents. So perhaps it would be possible

12 to receive the documents several days before so that we could prepare and

13 carry out cross-examination on those documents.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There is nothing to stop the Defence raising

15 questions as a result of the production of the documents in question. And

16 for your request that they be given to you a few days so that you

17 can -- I'm sure that can be arranged with the Prosecution.

18 MR. WEINER: Yes, thank you. We'd have no objection. It's just

19 at this point trying to obtain the documents and taking a look at them and

20 seeing what we have there. Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, all right.

22 All right. Mr. Dagovic, you've heard the exchange that the

23 Prosecution is of the view that they would wish the documents discussed to

24 be produced. And since you were not warned in advance, you didn't have

25 them -- you don't have them with you. So it will be up to you and the

Page 5980

1 Prosecution, through the Victims and Witnesses Unit, to discuss when the

2 documents can be available.

3 And Mr. Weiner, you remember sufficient notice to the Defence,

4 also.

5 MR. WEINER: Yes. I'm sorry. Your Honour, would you like me to

6 speak to this witness this evening, or do you want to leave it totally

7 through the Victims and Witnesses Unit to --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Since you have finished your re-examination and the

9 next batch will be on the documents that the witness is expected to

10 produce, I may as well ask the Defence whether they have any objection to

11 your contacts with the witness as from now on.

12 MR. WEINER: Those would be limited to getting the documents here.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: We don't have no objection, Your Honour. We don't

14 have an objection.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The contacts will be limited to the production

16 of the documents.

17 MR. WEINER: Yes. That's what I intended to do, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So Mr. Dagovic, you are released for now, but

19 we will expect you to come back and discuss the documents that you are

20 required to produce.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may be permitted to say, since

22 you promised me that I would have the opportunity to say something, and

23 I -- because I wasn't in contact with the Prosecution, I have a couple

24 more very good documents which have been discussed during this

25 examination. I even have a tape recording. So if you would permit me to

Page 5981

1 submit that, or for us to listen to that all together here. I also have

2 my military booklet where my vez [phoen] is stated and where it states

3 where I was supposed to report. I also have a payment slip which would

4 show you what the document looks like when you receive money. And this

5 recording, this audiotape, has to do with the payment or salaries for

6 people. It's about -- a person is mentioned here who was discussed

7 yesterday who was on the payroll of the workers of the hospital. So I

8 would like to submit these documents and listen to them together, perhaps,

9 if the Court will allow that.

10 I would also like to state -- I would also like to state the dates

11 that we discussed here about the dates of my trial in Bijeljina, after my

12 exchange. If we look at it carefully, the gentleman didn't know where and

13 when I was exchanged, so that they are talking about a month earlier in

14 Bosanski Samac. In fact, I was exchanged one month later in Dragalic, in

15 Croatia, which obviously shows that these documents were either made

16 later. But it does indicate that something is not right here in relation

17 to the documents showing where and when I was exchanged.

18 Also, I wanted to ask something, whether these gentlemen also had

19 access to my medical records, my physician records. And if they hadn't,

20 perhaps I could provide them for them, because they were made by Dutch

21 doctors, by a Dutch panel of doctors, and they clearly showed the

22 consequences that I'm suffering from as a result of my detention in the

23 camp. And if these gentlemen are convicted, I intend to sue for damages.

24 Another thing: The apology that I received by the Defence of

25 Mr. Simo Zaric, I do not accept it, because at that time I needed

Page 5982

1 assistance, and I do not need this apology now. And I would like to -- I

2 don't need anybody's pity.

3 I also have a CD with all of the photographs, and I can also

4 submit that. The CD contains some 20 photographs, and they are very

5 interesting.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Witness, this is a criminal trial, and in

7 every criminal trial, the evidence is usually limited to only that which

8 is relevant to the indictment. So the Prosecution have elicited the

9 evidence they wanted from you, and the Defence have cross-examined. We

10 are only remaining with one part which the Prosecution wants to complete,

11 and that is the production of documents which indicate where you were

12 during your release or after your release. And that is all that the next

13 stage is limited to.

14 You can discuss with your advisors in the Witnesses and Victims

15 Unit, for instance, but as far as the Prosecution is concerned, their

16 contact with you will only be limited as to what has been stated before.

17 So any other evidence that you think may be relevant, you can discuss with

18 your advisors in the Victims and Witnesses Unit. It will be up to them to

19 discuss with the Prosecution and see whether or not there is need for that

20 to be produced.

21 So for you, you are free to go. And we thank you very much for

22 assisting the Tribunal, but we will still require your presence as

23 indicated.

24 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5983

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, you wanted to say something?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. At the break, I spoke with my

4 colleagues from the Prosecution, and we have one document which was not

5 admitted. It only received the ID numbers for them. These are the two

6 statements that the witness provided to the SUP. These are the D28/3 and

7 D29/3. When we questioned this witness, we provided the original B/C/S

8 statement as well as the English translation, so there is no reason why

9 these documents should now not be admitted and -- into evidence and be

10 given numbers, because we had these documents be given ID numbers so that

11 this -- they could be admitted through this witness and that he could

12 answer questions about the documents.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner, D28/3 and D29/3.

14 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour, we have no objection to these

15 documents being admitted. However, we're not conceding that they are

16 truthful. We are allowing them to be admitted for what the testimony

17 basically concerned.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 MR. WEINER: We're not making any statement indicating the

20 truthfulness of those statements.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So they will be admitted into evidence.

22 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: And I'm sure they will retain the same numbers, but

24 let's just have confirmation from the registry.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. They will be Exhibits D28/3

Page 5984

1 ter and D28/3, and D29/3 ter and D29/3.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have two other suggestions Your

4 Honours. During the break that we just had -- the one-week break that we

5 had, I managed through my investigator to obtain the original statement by

6 Witness M, which was given at the SUP in Bosanski Samac on the 9th of

7 November, 1992. And if you remember, we need this statement because

8 the -- the witness is questioning the authenticity of his signature. This

9 is document D22/3 and D22/3 ID, so I would like now to have admitted the

10 original statement of that witness into evidence.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection, Mr. Weiner?

12 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honour please, may I just find the

14 document first? I'm trying to find a copy of it. It's taken me somewhat

15 by surprise.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And while we're waiting for my learned

18 friend, in the meantime, I have received three official translations

19 of documents D17, D25/3, and D26/3, which were only so far given in the

20 B/C/S version. So perhaps we could use this time to admit those documents

21 as well.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: You said D17, and then D25/3 and D26/3?

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. And D17/3.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: And was the reason for non-admission only that they

25 didn't have English translation?

Page 5985

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we were just waiting for the

2 English translation. They are two exchange lists and also the decision to

3 initiate proceedings against Defence Witness L, which we analysed together

4 with him but we didn't have the official translation at that time.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I think that there probably won't be a problem with

8 these documents.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Which ones?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: The ones that have been raised by my colleague

11 Mr. Lukic. But --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: No, I mean the first batch or the -- all of them?

13 MR. DI FAZIO: All of them.

14 I -- if my learned friend is able to point out which particular

15 documents he wants to deal with and conduct this exercise with and gives

16 us some time, we can quickly have a look at that, check the transcript,

17 give us -- and provide the Chamber with a clear, coherent picture of our

18 position. At the moment, I'm taken somewhat by surprise, and I -- I don't

19 quite know how to respond without having an opportunity to check the

20 transcript. So --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Then there's no harm in you being given an

22 opportunity to check, to go back.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If we could do that, and perhaps if we

24 could provide a response, say tomorrow.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Later.

Page 5986

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Tomorrow, I'm sure we could make our position

2 absolutely clear tomorrow.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And I recall other Defence counsel, especially

4 I think Mr. Zecevic, saying he, too, had received the translations for

5 various documents.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. If I may, with all due respect,

7 I have informed the Prosecutors about the existence of the translation.

8 Already ten days ago, I gave them the copies of official translation. I

9 offered this into the evidence. They said they should need some time to

10 check it out. It was Wednesday or Thursday last week, as far as I

11 remember. If they're not ready now to respond to that, I wonder -- I

12 didn't raise the question because --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: It sounds an appropriate moment because my colleague

15 has already raised this issue about the documents. So whether my learned

16 colleagues can give us an estimation, whether they are prepared now to, I

17 don't know, express their views on these documents or are reserving their

18 time for some later -- later time in these proceedings. Thank you.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Di Fazio.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Would tomorrow at 2.15 be appropriate? Would

21 that cause too much inconvenience to --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: For all of them?

23 MR. DI FAZIO: For all of them.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The ones discussed by Mr. Lukic right now and

25 the once given to you already by Mr. Zecevic?

Page 5987

1 MR. DI FAZIO: By Mr. Zecevic. Thank you.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may be of assistance, it refers to the

3 documents D22 A to I/2 ter ID.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

7 Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, allow me to address this issue also,

9 because it's a part of this general issue that we are dealing just right

10 now. In fact, this morning, the Defence were provided with the -- well, I

11 would say significant number of various documents by Prosecution.

12 In spite of all -- I'm speaking on behalf of myself and my

13 relation with the -- my learned colleague from the Prosecution. In spite

14 of all my efforts on the collegial basis between the Defence and the

15 Prosecution, I think -- it seems to me that something is going wrong. In

16 fact, they provided us with the number of documents only in English

17 translation, which inevitably goes to the -- to the merit. In shortly,

18 that means that they are in possession of certain documents on B/C/S

19 language, and we cannot find it here.

20 It also relates to certain number of witnesses -- witness

21 statement. Also in English without -- without B/C/S language. I would

22 like to remind my learned friends that it's an obligation towards our

23 clients, they have to be supplied with witness statement in their own

24 language that they can understand.

25 And also, the practice that we now -- today is 18 of February,

Page 5988

1 2002 -- that now they try to discover us, and practically they deliver a

2 certain number of witness statements from 1999, 1998, and all other

3 things. I mean, this practice is a little bit, I don't know, confusing

4 me, because I don't know where is the end of this, I would say, in-trial

5 discovery process.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: They are not -- they are not provided to you under

7 Rule 68 because Rule 68 gives the Prosecution a continuing obligation,

8 whenever they come across any documents they think may be exculpatory,

9 they are obliged to disclose them to the Defence at all stages, because

10 that's continuing obligation. So I'm wondering which Rule --

11 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, that would be very good for us, but I

12 don't see that these are exculpatory documents, especially certain of

13 witness statements.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, no. That is not up to you to agree with

15 them. They may have their own opinion on what they think of a document.

16 So if they think anything in it may be exculpatory -- but because you know

17 the defence of your client and you may not find them exculpatory, but I'm

18 only concerned with Rule 68.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Frankly --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Unless you show that it's not under Rule 68.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. And also the main problem is that, in fact,

22 we don't have this B/C/S version of documents and statements, so I kindly

23 ask this Trial Chamber to take a note about this practice and I hope that

24 our learned friends will try to resolve this problem. It was not my

25 intention to take the precious time of this trial proceedings, but I was

Page 5989

1 -- I was -- in fact, I was obliged to bring this practice, because -- I

2 mean, as I said, in spite of all our efforts to clarify this relation,

3 still --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But I did say, Mr. Pantelic, I asked you, are

5 these Rule 68 documents or not? When they were giving them to you, what

6 did they say to you?

7 MR. PANTELIC: No, no. Your Honour. I don't see any reference to

8 Rule 68 here. No.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Maybe I can hear from the Prosecution.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Of course. That would be good, yes. Thank you.

11 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I think I would save the Court some time

12 in going into the details of what every single one of those documents

13 are. But no, there are no Rule 68 documents included in those documents

14 that were disclosed to the Defence counsel or were available Friday

15 evening and some today. The documents are disclosed because three Defence

16 counsel have invoked reciprocal disclosure, and as the Rules indicate that

17 whenever we come across something that could -- that should be disclosed,

18 we do. We disclose it simply because it's related to Bosanski Samac, not

19 because it's a Rule 68 material. Mr. Pantelic is not entitled to any of

20 those documents that were disclosed here today because he has not invoked

21 reciprocal discovery. Out of a matter of courtesy, we copy him on every

22 document that is disclosed to his co-counsel under their entitlement to

23 reciprocal disclosure.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: You don't mean to his co-counsel; you mean to the

25 other three Defence counsel for the other three accused.

Page 5990

1 MS. REIDY: That's exactly what I mean, Your Honours. For

2 Mr. Milan Simic, Mr. Simo Zaric, Mr. Miroslav Tadic, and they invoked

3 reciprocal discovery. And said every time that a document appears in the

4 system -- most of these documents, what happened, in fact, is there's a

5 new collection in Cyrillic in the OTP. We have been searching them. As

6 Mr. Pantelic says, he doesn't have something in English. Most of them

7 we've disclosed in B/C/S without any statement because we consider it may

8 be relevant and we don't want to hold on to the documents until we have a

9 translation. The other statements to which Mr. Pantelic refers are

10 informal witness notes --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: So then if you say he hasn't invoked the procedure,

12 then why are we discussing him? All you needed to say is not supposed to

13 receive these documents and he should ignore them because he hasn't

14 invoked the reciprocal --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Sorry to the interpreters. We are speaking too

17 fast.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, very shortly, if I may, concerning

19 the same question. I have already raised this issue this afternoon, and I

20 think it would be of assistance to this Trial Chamber that we have agreed,

21 Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio and myself, that we will go over these documents

22 which have been disclosed to us this morning and then he will try to solve

23 this situation and inform accordingly the Trial Chamber. Thank you, Your

24 Honours.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you. Then we don't have to deal

Page 5991

1 with Mr. Pantelic on these documents because, as you said, he's not in the

2 procedure that the others have invoked.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Your Honour. But allow me to say, okay, I'm

4 not a part of reciprocal discovery. But still Prosecution is obliged to

5 provide me well in advance certain number of documents they want to relate

6 during trial. I mean, I agree that I am not a part of discovery process.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: No. What do you mean? You are saying the

8 Prosecution have an obligation to show you or to give to you copies of the

9 documents they are going to use in the trial.

10 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct, yes. Well in advance. So I have

11 to be in a position to prepare --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That touch on your client, yes.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. So I mean, this is a situation -- it's a

14 quite unique situation. They want to waive their obligation to provide me

15 with a certain number of documents because it's not related to reciprocal

16 discovery, which is wrong. I have to be supplied with certain number of

17 documents well in advance. Okay. I can agree, for example, if they --

18 they are in possession of certain documents which was seized, let's say,

19 last week, okay. That's okay. But Your Honours, they gave me a witness

20 statement of 9th of March, 1999 today. That's a problem. That's a

21 problem.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: For a witness who is on the list?

23 MR. PANTELIC: No, witness is not on the list, but still there are

24 certain events which might be of importance for the -- for the Defence.

25 So the bottom line is that I think that the Prosecution should

Page 5992

1 provide me with certain number of documents well in advance. Well, that

2 notion "well in advance," we could discuss, whether it's one month or 40

3 days or ten days. I'm absolutely free to hear the suggestion. But it's

4 not related to reciprocal discovery, not at all, Your Honours. Not at

5 all.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: All I can say is, to aid the parties to discuss

7 these matters and agree, we all know what the Rules of Procedure say. And

8 it's a bit unsettling to hear Defence counsel talking about some

9 statements which appear to have been in the custody of the Prosecution for

10 a long time, only to be disclosed during the trial.

11 If, as we have already discussed, there is nothing which is within

12 the obligation of the Prosecution to disclose to Mr. Pantelic for the

13 defence of his client, then let it be so. We will proceed. Thank you for

14 your comments.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we are supposed to have submissions on

17 Variant A and B.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: That's precisely right, if Your Honours please. My

19 colleague, Ms. Reidy, as I mentioned to you earlier last week is in a

20 position to make submissions to the Chamber on that topic, in a position

21 to make submissions to the Chamber both on the calling of any other

22 witnesses that the Defence have indicated --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: -- and also the question of admissibility of the

25 document.

Page 5993

1 JUDGE MUMBA: No. First of all, she will deal with -- she will

2 respond to the request by the Defence, both Ms. Baen and Mr. Pantelic.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: In that case, I have nothing further to add, and

4 she's in a position --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Which is on the transcript.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: After a decision is taken, then the next stage will

8 follow.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: My colleague Ms. Reidy will address the Chamber.

10 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honours. On that matter, may I just

11 seek clarification perhaps from the Bench and from Mr. Pantelic. On

12 reading the transcript of last Thursday, Mr. Pantelic indicated that he

13 would like to call the four co-authors of D27 through to D32, which were

14 the chain of custody statements. And he also indicated that he wished to

15 call the author of D24/1, which was a Mr. Dragan Kalinic, and then he went

16 on to admit -- to say that he wished to call two further prominent

17 political figures, who remained unnamed but were under

18 indictment by the Tribunal, and he was going to have discussions with

19 their lawyers. I don't know, he said he would inform the Chamber more on

20 Monday.

21 Is he in a position to give us those names, or given the urging of

22 the Bench that this was not a matter of urgency, should I leave that to

23 one side and simply address the calling of Mr. Bjelica and, for example,

24 the signatories of the chain of custody statements?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps, if he can give the names of witnesses he

Page 5994

1 didn't name. Otherwise, the others are identified -- the authors of the

2 documents are identified sufficiently.

3 Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. During the weekend, my

5 colleague, Mr. Zecevic and I, we spoke with the -- with the Defence

6 counsel for Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik and Mr. Brdjanin. I don't know his

7 first name, sorry.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Those are the two -- the ones you said are indicted

9 by the Tribunal.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Currently in the detention -- in the UN Detention

11 Unit.

12 Mr. Brashic, who is the Defence counsel for Mr. Krajisnik,

13 informed us that he spoke with his client and that Mr. Krajisnik will be

14 able to come before this Trial Chamber to give his evidence but limited

15 only -- that's understandable, of course -- only to A and B issue. So --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: What type of evidence? What is he going to discuss

17 about A and B?

18 MR. PANTELIC: As a prominent member of SDS party and also

19 president of main board, he will be able to give us his knowledge --

20 personal knowledge of the existence of the document -- alleged document

21 called A and B Variant. That's one thing.

22 Another issue, with regard to Mr. Brdjanin, in fact he --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: So [Microphone not activated]

24 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, that's correct, very short testimony.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: And Brdjanin?

Page 5995

1 MR. PANTELIC: With regard to Mr. Brdjanin, we're still waiting a

2 response from his lawyer. He supposedly have to meet -- met him this

3 morning. So probably during this afternoon, we should have the answer for

4 Defence counsel of Mr. Brdjanin.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: And what is Mr. Brdjanin going to discuss?

6 MR. PANTELIC: Basically the same issue, his personal knowledge of

7 the existence of the alleged document, Variant A and B, and because he was

8 also prominent member of the SAO region of Krajina, Banja Luka region, and

9 also SDS party. So these two persons are here, and they are willing to --

10 well, for Mr. Brdjanin, I have to be precise. We are still waiting for

11 the response from his counsel.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What is important for the Trial Chamber is to

13 know the nature of the evidence they are going to give. That is

14 sufficient.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. I think that is sufficient for Ms. Reidy's

17 response to the requests by the Defence.

18 MS. REIDY: Yes. Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Not the request, the applications to call further

20 witnesses, actually.

21 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, in light of what Mr. Pantelic has just

22 explained, I will address the calling of the witnesses -- the witness put

23 on the record on the 12th of February, which was Mr. Milovan Bjelica and

24 the witnesses of the -- who are the signatories of the chain of custody

25 statements and Mr. Dragan Kalenic. I will address those as one bunch of

Page 5996

1 witnesses. And the last two witnesses I would address separately because

2 the nature of the evidence they could provide and who they are, that is I

3 consider distinguishable from the other two -- from the other six

4 witnesses.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Very well. Yes, very well. You can go

6 ahead.

7 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, let me state from the outset that the

8 Defence position that it opposes the calling of Mr. Bjelica, any of the

9 four signatories on the chain of custody statements, and the author of

10 Defence Exhibit 24/1, Mr. Kalinic, and it essentially opposes the

11 request.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry.

13 Mr. Zecevic.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Ms. Reidy, but this is probably --

15 this is probably the mistake in a transcript because it said, "let me

16 state from the outset that the Defence position is ..." I'm sorry, but I

17 didn't know that Ms. Reidy was actually addressing --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: It's the Prosecution.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it's the Prosecution. We'll have that

21 corrected in the transcript.

22 MS. REIDY: Thank you. It is, of course, the Prosecution's

23 position that we oppose the Defence request. And we do so essentially on

24 two grounds: One that the Defence themselves have not established any

25 grounds why this Trial Chamber should exercise its discretion in granting

Page 5997

1 their request, which on any reading of normal procedure is -- would be an

2 extraordinary measure in the normal proceedings. And secondly, it is

3 unnecessary for this Trial Chamber to call the witnesses proposed in order

4 to address the task in front of them, which is the admissibility of

5 document Variant A/Variant B.

6 The Defence request, which was initially put on the record on the

7 12th of February was phrased as follows. And Defence counsel for Milan

8 Simic said that: "I was hoping that Mr. O'Donnell would not testify to

9 that, trying to interpret a document, because now I have to make a

10 request. All we are going to have to ask for now is the opportunity to

11 get this witness who prepared this letter from the SDS to complete all the

12 information with respect to these documents before the Trial Chamber can

13 make a determination on admissibility."

14 With respect to having reread that transcript and try to ascertain

15 the basis of the Defence request, it is somewhat vague, and we are

16 responding on the basis that the Defence is in fact requesting the Trial

17 Chamber to make either one of the following three decisions:

18 One, to permit the Defence to call its own witness midway through

19 the Prosecution case.

20 Secondly, that it's asking the Trial Chamber to exercise its power

21 under Rule 89(E) to request even further evidence on authenticity of

22 document P3 ID.

23 Or the third interpretation of the request could be that it is

24 asking the Trial Chamber to invoke completely a voir dire process.

25 On any of those processes that the Defence is actually seeking,

Page 5998

1 the Prosecution would oppose the request. And, as I said, above all we

2 reject the idea that any of those measures would be necessary in order for

3 the Trial Chamber to make a determination on admissibility.

4 First, the Prosecution would submit that whichever interpretation

5 of the Defence request is correct, it is clear that they are -- the

6 requests are an exception to the normal proceedings and that therefore the

7 Defence is in effect asking the Chamber to exercise its discretion in

8 favour of the Defence. And it therefore follows that the burden must lie

9 with the Defence to provide the grounds why this Bench should exercise its

10 discretion as requested.

11 And Your Honour, they have not discharged that burden.

12 And I turn again to what the Defence submitted as the reasons for

13 being necessary to call the witness. And perhaps for the record and for

14 the assistance of those in the Chamber today, that was at line -- at page

15 5741 of the proceedings on the 12th of February, at line 23. And the

16 asserted reason as to why this witness is to be called is because

17 Mr. O'Donnell tried to interpret document 23 -- Defence Exhibit 23/1.

18 Your Honours, first asking a witness to interpret a document does

19 not provide a ground in and of itself for requesting that the Chamber

20 permit a Defence witness to be called halfway through the Prosecution case

21 or, indeed, nor does it provide a ground to move to a voir dire procedure.

22 The Defence has simply not explained why asking a witness to interpret a

23 document should permit them to ask the Chamber to call a witness.

24 Secondly, even if that were -- even if there were grounds for

25 calling a witness on the basis that a witness had interpreted a document,

Page 5999

1 in this case, it's respectfully submitted that the Defence are wrong on

2 the facts. The witness did not try to interpret the document, as Defence

3 counsel themselves went to great length to make clear to the Bench. The

4 witness testified about the document only because Defence counsel

5 considered it necessary to its cross-examination and because Defence

6 counsel sought to have it admitted into evidence. And --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Please do slow down for the interpreters.

9 MS. REIDY: I'm sorry.

10 And the document does indeed bear a Defence exhibit number.

11 When the witness was originally asked to comment on this document,

12 indeed on the provocative final sentence, it was by Defence counsel. The

13 Prosecution objected, and the Defence counsel argued that this was not an

14 interpretation of the document, but the witness was being asked to provide

15 his professional opinion based on his background.

16 The question in redirect which triggered the Defence counsel for

17 Milan Simic to request the witness was no more an interpretation of the

18 document than the original answer to the question posed by Defence counsel

19 for Blagoje Simic.

20 Your Honours, even when you examine closely the response of

21 Mr. O'Donnell, which again from the transcript appears to be the trigger

22 for the request, there is nothing in that response which, with respect,

23 the Prosecution can find merits granting the Defence a right to call a

24 Defence witness midway through the Prosecution case. He simply testified

25 that the document was referred to in other documents located across

Page 6000

1 Bosnia, that one document had been found by the international

2 stabilisation force. He referred to the fact that some documents which

3 cross-refer to Variant A and Variant B were obtained from the Bosnian Serb

4 authorities, and he referred to the fact that Mr. Karadzic himself had

5 made a clear reference to the Variant A and B at the time that he was

6 president of the SDS. Each of those points he testified in his answer

7 were a statement of fact and indeed covered ground on which Mr. O'Donnell

8 had already testified.

9 So Your Honours, with respect, even on the Defence's own

10 submissions, there is nothing so far in the testimony or the evidence

11 before this Trial Chamber which grounds or goes to substantiate the reason

12 for their request.

13 I would, however, now like to turn to whether or not there are

14 other reasons beyond those stated by the Defence as to why the Bench may

15 wish indeed to call either the witness named by Milan Simic's counsel on

16 the 12th of February or any of the five witnesses who Mr. Blagoje Simic's

17 counsel referred to on Thursday.

18 And with respect, Your Honours, the Prosecution's position is

19 simply that there are no other reasons to call any of the suggested

20 witnesses at this stage. And the reason for that is simply that the issue

21 before the Bench at the moment is one of determining admissibility of this

22 document. And whether the document should be admitted into evidence or

23 not is something to be determined pursuant to Rule 89 and the Rules set

24 out in that Rule, or whether through any reason according to Rule 95 why

25 the document -- or the inadmissibility of the document should be

Page 6001

1 precluded. The rules of inadmissibility are very, very clear and have

2 been pronounced on a number of times by various Trial Chambers and on more

3 than one occasion by the Appeals Chamber. The Prosecution has to

4 establish relevancy and probity in accordance with Rule 89(C), and in

5 establishing relevancy, we have to prove that there is an indicia of

6 reliability of the document. The Prosecution's position is that we have

7 done so. And if the Defence at some later stage wish to challenge the

8 Prosecution's evidence, they can, of course, do that.

9 The question, Your Honour, is when should they be permitted to do

10 that. And that arises when the Defence have the time to present their

11 case. If the Defence want to argue before the Bench the weight to be

12 given to this document, then they can do that and they should do it in the

13 Defence case and in their submissions. They cannot -- it is not the time

14 now to be arguing the weight of the document, when the matter before this

15 Bench is a matter of admissibility.

16 Your Honours, the question arises as to whether or not the

17 witnesses who are proposed by the Defence could in fact provide any

18 information which would assist the Bench in the determination of the

19 admissibility of this document. And Your Honours, it is submitted that

20 they would not.

21 Contrary to the submissions by the Defence that they are entitled

22 to call the author of a document or the people related to chain of custody

23 of the document before the question of admissibility is determined, the

24 Appeals Chamber in Celebici, as quite rightly pointed out, that

25 the decision in that case to admit a document did not in any way undermine

Page 6002

1 the rights of the defendant to a fair trial or to confront the witness

2 against him pursuant to Article 21, paragraph 4, subsection (e). The

3 Trial Chamber - and this is at paragraph 22 -- or sorry, the Appeals

4 Chamber, at paragraph 22, went on to say: "On the contrary, to require

5 the attendance of the authors at this time stage of the proceedings would

6 be, in the view of the bench, to acquire an extremely high standard for

7 the purpose of a fair trial envisaged by Article 20, paragraph 1.

8 Your Honour, the question for the Bench is a matter of

9 admissibility of this document and therefore of its relevancy and probity

10 and whether or not it is sufficiently reliable to meet the test of

11 admissibility.

12 Your Honour, should --

13 JUDGE SINGH: So coming back to your sufficiently reliable, can

14 you address us on that, the indicia that you want to rely on? Can you

15 come to that at some time, yes.

16 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour. Can I just seek a

17 clarification. Would you like me to argue on why we believe there is

18 sufficient reliance in existence or what these -- what "sufficiently

19 reliable" means?

20 JUDGE SINGH: No, what it means. But we are looking at those

21 documents -- at some time, please come back.

22 MS. REIDY: Okay. Then Your Honours, I would say that any of

23 the -- any of the witnesses -- the evidence before this Chamber which

24 makes this document, in the Prosecution's view, sufficiently reliable are

25 a number of factors. They start from the fact that we are able to show

Page 6003

1 that this document, although unsigned and unstamped, was not just found

2 once or in one place in Bosnia but that a number of copies of it were

3 found throughout Bosnia. We were able to show that numbers of the copies

4 were found with different numberings on it. The evidence is on the record

5 that contemporaneously a copy of the document was reproduced in a national

6 magazine Slobodna Bosna. We were able to show that the persons who

7 found the documents found them at different times, in different locations

8 and they were different people, the most recent one having been found, as

9 we said, by the international stabilisation force in Livno.

10 We were able to produce a number of documents which testify that

11 the document existed at the time the document purported to exist, that is,

12 in December 1991. And in particular, I'd refer the Bench now to the

13 Prosecution Exhibit P46, and those documents dealing 1 through to 10,

14 which in every case there is a cross-reference to the instructions on the

15 organisations of the activity of the Serbian people. And in a number of

16 them, specifically, for example, Article 4 of the instructions is cross

17 referred to, and it was the establishment of a Serbian municipality.

18 And perhaps I can direct you directly to one of those, which is

19 P46/8, that was the establishment of Donji Vakuf, and the cross-reference

20 of that -- in the establishment of the municipality of Donji Vakuf is a

21 cross-reference to Article 4 the Variant A/Variant B document, and the

22 same applies for the decision on the establishment of the Serbian

23 municipality of Tuzla, which I believe is P46/9.

24 We've also been able to show that this was discussed by and within

25 the SDS and indeed, as we said, by the president of the SDS, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 6004

1 Your Honours, we believe that that evidence shows sufficient

2 reliability that the document existed at the time we said it existed, that

3 it was indeed widely distributed, and that it was indeed acted upon in a

4 number of municipalities. Even if the witness who counsel for Milan Simic

5 proposed were to come and testify, and based on his statement -- or his

6 assertion in his letter, that is, that this document in fact originated

7 from a number of JNA officers, that wouldn't go to disprove any of the

8 reliable indicators we have put on the record. It wouldn't disprove that

9 the document didn't exist at the time we said it existed. It wouldn't

10 disprove that it was widely distributed to SDS offices. It wouldn't

11 disprove that it was received by SDS offices. And it wouldn't disprove

12 that the SDS party acted upon the instructions and set up a number of, for

13 example, Serbian municipalities in accordance with the instructions.

14 And Your Honours, it's our submission that all those factors go to

15 an indicia of reliability where none of the witnesses can call into

16 question that reliability. They could, as it appears Mr. Bjelica could,

17 call into question the authorship. Of course, the Prosecution case is

18 that that assertion is not reliable, nor does it fit with the evidence.

19 Indeed, perhaps if Mr. Karadzic would like to come and testify, then -- as

20 to his claim on the fiftieth transcript, that would be a great clarity as

21 to the authorship.

22 But Your Honours, that is in essence, is our submission. We have

23 provided a reliable -- indicia of reliability. There is nothing that any

24 of these witnesses who could come could do to challenge that reliability.

25 It would simply be the Prosecution -- I mean, the Defence is entitled to

Page 6005

1 raise their case as to -- they want to challenge this document. They want

2 to bring other witnesses who will argue as to the weight that will be

3 given to it, then they can do that. But they should do that in the

4 Defence case in the natural course of the proceedings. And it should not

5 be something that should go ahead at the decision -- at the time when the

6 Bench is making determination simply on the admissibility of the -- of the

7 evidence. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

9 In reply?

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may address the Court. I have

11 informed my learned colleagues from the Prosecutor bench that we have

12 designed Ms. Catharine Baen to deal with this -- with the legal

13 submissions and the reply on Ms. Reidy's, whatever was the -- Ms. Reidy's

14 position on calling this witness.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Since Ms. Catharine Baen is not present, I have

17 asked them that they should just not raise the legal submissions. Out of

18 the simple fairness, I didn't want to interrupt, but I have to ask the

19 Honourable Trial Chamber to give us the time until Ms. Catharine Baen

20 comes back and then she will do legal submissions on our part and as

21 well --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Because he -- I'm sorry. Your Honours, I might be

24 misunderstanding, but I was of the impression that the order of the Trial

25 Chamber -- the ruling of the Trial Chamber was that the Prosecutor would

Page 6006

1 only refer to this specific claim for a witness, Mr. Bjelica, and then

2 the other witnesses which -- which my learned colleague, Mr. Pantelic, has

3 offered. And then that we will go on with the next witness. And then,

4 only after the ruling of the Trial Chamber on that, then we will have

5 legal submissions on the admissibility, relevance, authenticity, and all

6 the other aspects of this document. That was my understanding. I might

7 be wrong. And I apologise for that, but --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Actually, your understanding is correct.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And the Trial Chamber is prepared to wait for

11 Ms. Baen to come.

12 What Ms. Reidy was asked to do was to respond to the application

13 by the Defence to call witnesses.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: And of course some of the submissions may overlap

16 with what appears to be final submissions. That's not the position.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Exactly, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: So when Ms. Baen come, she also -- she will reply to

19 whatever.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: She will reply.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Ask then the decision will be made whether or

22 not those witnesses can be called. Thereafter, there will be final

23 submissions.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: And since you have indicated that this matter is

Page 6007

1 with Ms. Baen, the Trial Chamber will, of course, give Ms. Baen the

2 opportunity to do so.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: And if we may know when she is likely to come back.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honour, I have the information that she

6 will be here on Wednesday morning. But I will check it out and inform the

7 Trial Chamber tomorrow by the beginning of the session.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can adjourn this particular matter until

9 she's back, and then she can respond, and then the decision will be made

10 by the Trial Chamber, and whether or not final submissions will be

11 head, that will be decided later.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm very grateful to Your Honours. Thank you.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: We may ask the Prosecution what is the position with

14 the witnesses.

15 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, the next witness is here and will be

16 dealt with by my colleague, Mr. Weiner. And I believe he has an

17 application to make to the Court in relation to that witness.

18 And just preceding that, could I just ask for clarification. In

19 Ms. Baen's submissions on the 12th of February, she did appear on the

20 record to make two submissions. One was about the request to call a

21 witness, and the other one was about a violation of the rules on

22 disclosure. And I don't know whether you'd like me to address that --

23 that second submission or indeed maybe wait for Ms. Baen to come in court.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I don't think I remember the violation on

25 disclosure. Which one? It pertained to what?

Page 6008

1 MS. REIDY: Ms. Baen -- she said in passing but then repeated her

2 submissions. She had made a submission that the disclosure of the letter

3 the 23 one, the response --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, the letter from the deputy --

5 MS. REIDY: -- disclosed on the 12th of February was a matter of

6 violation under Rule 68, she said.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, because of the late notice or the late

8 disclosure?

9 MS. REIDY: Well, that, of course is the argument. I mean, our --

10 we received it in-house. Tracking it down, it actually physically came

11 into the OTP's possession on the week of the 14th of January. So you can

12 see there was a matter of days or weeks delay. Now, we're willing to put

13 in submissions to whether or not that amounts to indeed a violation of the

14 Rules. But as I said, it's just because Ms. Baen had put it on the record

15 -- and I don't know whether it's actually something she wishes to pursue

16 --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I think to be fair to both parties, if you want to

18 make any submissions on it, you can go ahead now, so that when she comes

19 back, obviously she will have read the transcript, so she'll be well

20 prepared for all the points that are being submitted through -- submitted

21 on by the Prosecution.

22 MS. REIDY: Well, Your Honour, I'm --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: If you have --

24 MS. REIDY: [Previous translation continues] ... a decision to

25 make submissions. But as I said, I'm happy to wait until Ms. Baen comes

Page 6009

1 back and sees whether or not it's something she wants to pursue if -- that

2 is, I was just rereading the transcript and her position is somewhat vague

3 to me. But if you -- if the Trial Chamber prefer me to address them now,

4 and I'm in a position to do that, I can. But as I said, maybe just wait

5 for Ms. Baen to come back and clarify her position.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Her position on that.

7 All right. Maybe we can wait for her, since it's difficult to

8 determine when there is no clarification from the counsel who is handling

9 the matter. All right.

10 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

11 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me say this: We will not sit beyond 18 hours,

13 because there wasn't formal notice to the interpreters, for instance. So

14 we have a problem on that. So maybe we can just discuss if there is

15 anything to be discussed before the next witness is called, and then we

16 can start the witness tomorrow.

17 MR. WEINER: Yes. The only thing I was going to do, Your Honour,

18 is request protective measures for the next witness - if you want to go

19 into closed session for that - to request a closed session.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can go into private session, I think, if

21 we are to discuss the reasons, since we may discuss the name.

22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

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17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

18 at 6.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

19 the 19th day of February, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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