1 Wednesday, 6 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Milan Simic not present]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number
9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav
10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: The proceedings will continue under Rule 15 bis, and
12 we were on cross-examination.
13 Yes, Ms. Baen.
14 MS. BAEN: Just before Mr. Pisarevic continues, the Defence team
15 just learned for the first time yesterday afternoon that Judge Singh was
16 ill, and we just -- on behalf of the whole Defence team, I just wanted to
17 let you and him know that he's in our thoughts and prayers and we hope he
18 gets better soon. And I believe, together with the Prosecution team,
19 we're going to send some flowers to him, if that's okay -- if that's okay
20 for the Trial Chamber.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. That's okay. He's at home. He came
22 back at home today. So he will be -- we are very grateful for your kind
23 words. Thank you.
24 Mr. Pisarevic, you can continue with cross-examination.
25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
1 WITNESS: DRAGAN HASANA DELIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic: [Continued]
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Delic. We left off at the
5 speech of Simo Zaric in the local community of Bosanski Samac. Do you
6 remember Simo Zaric saying at that meeting that he had come to the meeting
7 on behalf of the 4th Detachment of the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA?
8 A. I can't remember his complete sentence related to that.
9 Q. But did you conclude that he was there on behalf of the 4th
11 A. After a while, he explained that there existed the 4th Detachment.
12 Q. Do you remember him saying on that occasion that the 4th
13 Detachment was resolute in its intention to protect the security and
14 safety of all the citizens of Samac, both with regard to their persons and
15 with regard to their property?
16 A. I do remember him saying that the 4th Detachment had been
17 established to protect.
18 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that the command of the 4th
19 Detachment of the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA occupied the premises of
20 the Samac textile industry?
21 A. Yes. It was said that the 4th Detachment occupied the offices of
22 the Sit company, that there had been certain problems in procuring those
23 premises, but the management of the company had to yield to pressure and
24 allowed them to use their premises.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Delic, but I have to ask you to answer my questions
1 with "yes," "no," or "I don't know."
2 Did you pass by that building every day on your way to work in
3 Mebos; yes or no?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. In front of the building, on the mast, on the flag
6 pole, did you see a flag of the JNA flying?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In addition to that flag, did you also see the flag of the
9 socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
10 A. I don't remember.
11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] There is a mistake in the
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. It was the flag of
14 the former Yugoslavia, instead of the JNA flag.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
16 Yes, Ms. Reidy.
17 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, I wonder if counsel for Mr. Zaric could
18 be more precise in the period of time he's asking the witness to comment
19 on, because he's talking about the particular -- he's talking about
20 whether or not the 4th Detachment occupied a building, and this could be
21 at any stage in time, before the 17th of April, after the 17th of April,
22 and I think from the evidence on the record, it's very clear -- it's very
23 important to be clear at what time Mr. Pisarevic is actually asking the
24 witness to comment on, or indeed if it's the whole period, because I think
25 that otherwise it's going to lead to confusion and not being able to use
1 his evidence, as it will not be clear which period of time he's asking the
2 witness to comment on.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic, I'm sure you've understood what
4 Ms. Reidy is asking about precision in terms of time.
5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I do have to
6 correct the transcript in one point.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: That's on page 3, line 9, the transcript said,
9 "the flag of JNA flying." And as I remember, Mr. Pisarevic has posed a
10 question if flag of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was flying.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: And then the interpreters did correct, actually. It
12 was their mistake, if you look at line 15. Yeah, it was the flag of the
13 former Yugoslavia, instead of the JNA flag. All right?
14 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: You're welcome.
16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Delic, you have understood what my learned friend from the
18 Prosecution just said. This command, was it there before the 17th of
19 April, 1992?
20 A. According to the stories that I've heard, it was.
21 Q. Thank you. We will now move on to a different subject. You know
22 that the Serbian police existed in the town of Samac beginning with the
23 17th of April, 1992?
24 A. I didn't quite understand.
25 Q. I will repeat. You are aware that there existed a Serbian police
1 force in the Serbian municipality of Samac as of the 17th of April, 1992.
2 A. If you mean the police of the national party of the SDS, I did
3 indeed hear that a police force had been established in parallel with the
4 regular police force of the town of Samac, and I repeat, I heard this.
5 Q. Mr. Delic, my question was not before the 17th of April but
6 starting with or after the 17th of April, 1992. That is the day of the
7 outbreak of the conflict.
8 A. From the 17th of April, 1992, all military personnel and the
9 police were occupying forces, in my mind, and I used only that term for
10 them in thinking about them.
11 Q. Mr. Delic, that is your position. What I'm interested in are
12 facts. Are you aware that from the 17th of April, 1992, there existed in
13 the Serbian municipality of Samac the institution of the police force?
14 A. All I know is that there existed occupying forces at that time.
15 Q. Those occupying forces, as you call them, they have a police force
16 in the municipality of Samac?
17 A. When I was in the camp, there were policemen.
18 Q. Thank you. And are you aware of the fact that this police force
19 was based in the Marsal Tito street?
20 A. I didn't know where they were based because I was detained,
21 imprisoned in a camp.
22 Q. Mr. Delic, where were you summoned to report by the chief of
23 police, Mr. Stevan Todorovic, on the 22nd of April, 1992?
24 A. To the SUP.
25 Q. Is that a building in the Marsal Tito street where the
1 headquarters of Mr. Stevan Todorovic, chief of police, were located?
2 A. It was a building in the Marsal Tito street, and as to Todorovic's
3 headquarters, I don't know about their location.
4 Q. Mr. Delic, in that building, were you arrested by the chief of
5 police, Mr. Stevan Todorovic, on the 22nd of April, 1992?
6 A. He sent me straight to the camp, to the TO.
7 Q. To whom did Todorovic give the orders to escort you from that
8 building to the TO building in Samac?
9 A. To a man in uniform.
10 Q. That man in uniform, was it a policeman?
11 A. I don't know. I don't know whether he was a policeman or a
13 Q. Members of the special units entered that building as they
14 pleased, the building of the TO, and abused people at will; is that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In the primary school building, you were also guarded by members
18 of the Serbian police; is that right?
19 A. The police and the army.
20 Q. And can we agree that persons who received orders from the chief
21 of police, Mr. Todorovic, wore different uniforms: police uniforms,
22 military uniforms, and other kinds of undefined uniforms?
23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I think I've got to object
24 to that question. I don't think there's been a proper basis laid for that
25 yet. All we know is that this witness was in custody for the substantial
1 period of time following the 22nd of April. He said that he saw Todorovic
2 give orders to a man in uniform, and that's all that he -- that he said
3 thus far. The question seeks an agreement that --
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What I see in that question is something that
5 wouldn't be in the knowledge of the witness.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's my concern.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah. The witness wouldn't know who was actually
8 receiving orders from Todorovic.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: May I --
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Other than the person he saw.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: That's what I'm concerned about. But may I just
12 have a moment to confer with my colleagues, if Your Honours please, before
13 I proceed with this objection.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I pursue my objection. I think Your Honours
17 actually put it far better than I did. It's just -- it's asking him
18 something that he doesn't have knowledge about.
19 Now, if Mr. Pisarevic can establish that the witness does have a
20 base of knowledge about who the orders were going to, fine, then the
21 witness can be asked. I've got no objection to that line of questioning.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pisarevic, I think part of problem is
23 generalising your question. Because as you have heard from the witness,
24 when he reported, he only saw one person instructed as to what to do with
25 the witness. So perhaps you can rephrase your question.
1 I can see the point you're trying to get at, but do rephrase it so
2 that it is a question within the knowledge of the witness.
3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.
4 Q. Mr. Delic, during your stay in those camps, as you called them,
5 were you able to be present there on the occasions when Mr. Stevan
6 Todorovic, as the chief of the police, was issuing orders to persons in
7 various uniforms?
8 A. I've already stated that I was present when he came to the gym of
9 the primary school and ordered that Omer Nalic be beaten and then that I
10 be beaten. I heard that order from him on that occasion.
11 Q. Let me remind you. Did Mr. Todorovic also issue orders to persons
12 while you were staying -- or while you were detained at the secondary
14 A. I don't know. He didn't do that in front of us, if he did do it.
15 I don't know who issued orders for them to come and beat us and torture
16 us. I don't know who ordered it. I was in the camp, and I was just the
17 person who was exposed to this evil. I don't know who issued the
19 Q. Mr. Delic, I understand completely what you are saying. Did you
20 feel that all of those guards were ready to act on any order from the
21 chief of police, Stevan Todorovic?
22 A. I don't know what they were prepared to do, according to anybody's
23 orders. But I do know that they did commit evil against us inmates of the
24 camps, civilians.
25 Q. Those guards that you're talking about, were they both in military
1 and police uniforms?
2 A. I didn't pay attention to that, and I don't really know the
3 difference between those uniforms of theirs.
4 Q. So let us conclude. You don't know the difference -- or you can't
5 tell the difference between a police uniform and a military uniform.
6 A. I'm speaking about the time that I was in the camp.
7 Q. Yes. I'm speaking about the same time as well.
8 A. So when they were beating us, I didn't have time to see whether I
9 was being beaten -- or whether we were being beaten by a man in police
10 uniforms or military uniforms. We were being beaten by people wearing
12 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can we agree with the fact that you could
13 have been released or exchanged from that camp only by the police, i.e.
14 its chief, Stevan Todorovic?
15 MR. DI FAZIO: I would object to that question, if Your Honours
16 please. There's, again, no evidence to show that this witness had any
17 idea of who orchestrated or engineered his release. Indeed, his evidence
18 is he didn't know until the morning of the 4th of September that he was
19 going to be exchanged at all. Now, I expressly recall that he said he
20 wasn't consulted. Therefore, how can he say if it was Todorovic or any of
21 the defendants, or anyone else, indeed, who was the man in charge or who
22 could authorise that?
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Of course, Mr. Pisarevic can ask him if he knows.
25 That's a different thing altogether. But I don't think he can put it to
1 him that he should agree that Todorovic was the man behind it.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The objection is sustained, Mr. Pisarevic.
3 Perhaps you can rephrase your question.
4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours.
5 Q. Mr. Delic, do you know that only the police which was headed by
6 its chief, Stevan Todorovic, could have released you or sent you for an
8 A. No, I don't know.
9 Q. Now we will move to a different topic. You've told this Trial
10 Chamber that you were transferred to Brcko on the 29th of April, 1992; yes
11 or no?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In your informal -- unofficial notes, your unofficial manuscript,
14 you wrote, on page 19: "It is the Serbian Easter today, and they will not
15 come today for sure." Did you write that or not, or should I read it to
16 you? I quoted what you said, so if you don't remember, perhaps I can also
17 give it to you for you to read it yourself.
18 A. Well, you said that in the unofficial manuscript -- that's what it
19 states there. I wrote about and mentioned the Serbian Easter in one part
20 of it, only to stress that they didn't respect that either, those people
21 who came to administer the beatings.
22 Q. Can you confirm for me, please, that the person nicknamed Dikan
23 was killed on that day, on the Serbian Easter?
24 A. That day, one of the detainees said, "Today is Serbian Easter.
25 They probably won't -- let's hope that they won't beat us." I don't know
1 exactly when Serbian Easter is.
2 Q. We'll come to that. Is that the same day that Dikan was killed?
3 A. The day one of the inmates said, "Today is Eastern Easter. Let's
4 hope that they won't beat us." On that day, Dikan was killed. And I
5 repeat, I don't know whether it was Serbian Easter on that day, but I said
6 it only because one of the inmates said, "Today is Serbian Easter." That
7 is why I thought it was in fact Serbian Easter.
8 Q. Thank you. Were you transferred to the JNA barracks in Brcko that
10 A. I said that we were transferred on the 29th of April, based on how
11 much we were able to figure out what date it was. We couldn't write the
12 dates down or calculate the dates. Had they found a little note with the
13 date on it, they would have probably said that it was some kind of code,
14 and they would have tortured us to death.
15 Q. Mr. Delic, please, would you help me so that we could go through
16 these questions. Please answer only if you remember. If you don't
17 remember when it was, please say so. Because what you have been saying
18 now is something that the Trial Chamber has already heard.
19 Excuse me. Since the Serbian Easter or the Orthodox Easter was on
20 Sunday, the 26th of April, 1992 --
21 A. I said that we were transferred to Brcko on the 29th of April,
22 1992, according to my recollection.
23 Q. But I asked you, sir, whether this was on the Serbian or the
24 Orthodox Easter.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I think I have an objection
1 to this.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: And I wonder if --
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can I deal with it? Yes.
5 Mr. Pisarevic, first of all, I would like to know what is the
6 importance of these dates to your client's defence. I think we seem to be
7 going around this and we are wasting quite a lot of time. The point the
8 witness remembers is that they were transferred to Brcko, and he has given
9 a date which he thinks it was. He has explained why he recorded that it
10 was Easter, because somebody else said so. How important is this to your
11 client's defence?
12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is important
13 because it is not true that the transfer to Brcko took part on the 29th of
14 April, 1992. In his notes, the witness talks about a significant event,
15 and that is the Serbian Orthodox Easter. The Serbian Orthodox Easter in
16 1992 was on the 26th of April, 1992. So my intention is to take the
17 witness through this event which he mentions in his manuscript, to see
18 whether we can agree that this transfer took part on the 26th of April,
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. How important is that? Yeah, I'm still --
21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Took place on the 26th of April,
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Whether or not the transfer to Brcko took place on
24 the 29th or on the 26th, I'm still asking, how important is that date to
25 your client's defence?
1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] It's important for the defence of
2 my client for the following reasons: My client, who gave an interview --
3 who was interviewed by the Prosecution, happened to claim that this
4 transfer took place on the 26th of April, 1992 and not on the 29th of
5 April, 1992.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I think from my perspective
8 I might be able to assist the Chamber and perhaps indeed Mr. Pisarevic. I
9 understand why it's important for Mr. Pisarevic to establish that the
10 transfer to Brcko took place on the day of Dikan's death, because I think
11 the position of Mr. Simo Zaric is going to be that he -- it was in
12 response to that that he engineered or orchestrated that. But the witness
13 has said, "Well, it happened on the day of Dikan's death." So
14 Mr. Pisarevic has largely achieved his purpose, has he not? Whether it
15 was the 26th or the 29th, that really doesn't matter, does it?
16 Furthermore, this witness has said he -- I think he's alluded to the
17 difficulty of keeping track of the dates, because he referred to being
18 unable to keep pieces of paper on him. But I would have thought that from
19 Mr. Pisarevic's point of view, he has achieved everything that he needs to
20 achieve by establishing the coincidence between Dikan's death and transfer
21 to Brcko.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pisarevic, can you move on.
23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Thank you.
24 Q. Do you remember that evening, the evening of your transfer from
25 the TO to the JNA barracks in Brcko, that Simo Zaric entered the TO
1 premises in Samac where you were detained?
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. Do you remember that Mihajlo Topolovac read out the names of the
5 A. Names were read out, but I don't know who read them out.
6 Q. You also don't know who decided that you be transferred from the
7 TO to the JNA barracks in Brcko.
8 A. No, I don't know.
9 Q. And you don't know why you were transferred to the JNA barracks in
11 A. No, I don't know.
12 Q. Did Mr. Tihic tell you anything about that when you were together
13 in Bijeljina and Brcko?
14 A. No, he did not.
15 Q. You were transferred to Brcko in the -- while accompanied by armed
16 military -- military police.
17 A. We were accompanied by armed persons. I don't know if they were
18 from the army or from the military police.
19 Q. Did you see in your escort any military police officers?
20 A. When we were in the truck, we heard a voice that said, "No one
21 should try to escape from the truck. Even if somebody peeks through, out
22 of the truck, they will be killed," and that they were escorting us.
23 Q. Mr. Delic, you didn't answer my question. That evening in your
24 escort, did you see members of the military police of the JNA?
25 A. No, I didn't. I entered the truck directly from the rooms where
1 we were held.
2 Q. Very well. Thank you. Did you have any contacts with an officer
3 at the barracks in Brcko who had his arm in a cast and who ordered that
4 your hands be tied in the front instead of in the back and that they do
5 not be tied so tightly -- bound so tightly?
6 A. Yes, that is correct.
7 Q. Did you receive medical treatment at the barracks in Brcko?
8 A. A doctor did come.
9 Q. Did you receive regular meals at the Brcko barracks?
10 A. I don't know what you mean by "regular." We did get food.
11 Q. You had the option of going to the toilet in small groups.
12 A. Yes. And if we were lucky, this passed without a beating.
13 Q. You had enough water.
14 A. We drank water only to rinse out our mouths, and we were allowed
15 to go to the toilet very rarely.
16 Q. Did you receive any mats or pallets or blankets in order to lie
18 A. I slept on the floor without a blanket.
19 Q. Were the people who were in the cell with you provided with
20 blankets or anything to lie down on?
21 A. No, they didn't have anything to lie down or any blankets.
22 Q. Mr. Delic, were you personally beaten while you were at the JNA
23 barracks in Brcko?
24 A. As soon as we got off the truck and into the barracks, I was
25 beaten even while they were tying me up.
1 Q. But after that, while you were detained there, while you were
2 imprisoned in the JNA barracks, were you beaten?
3 A. You mean in Brcko?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. No, not after that.
6 Q. Did anyone at all out of the persons who were transferred from
7 Samac to the barracks in Brcko get a beating during their stay in the
8 barracks in Brcko?
9 A. Since we were accommodated in a number of cells -- I cannot say
10 about the others -- but I in my cell got a few more inmates later from
12 Q. I'm only asking you about the people who were transferred from
14 A. When we were going to the loo from our cell, we would get a
15 beating on the way.
16 Q. People in camouflage uniforms didn't come to abuse you and
17 mistreat you while you were at the barracks in Brcko; yes or no?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And can we agree that the conditions in Brcko were better than in
20 the TO building in Bosanski Samac?
21 A. There was less mistreatment.
22 Q. The treatment you got in the barracks in Brcko, was it more humane
23 than the one in the TO building in Samac?
24 A. There was less mistreatment.
25 Q. Do you believe and is it your view that with your transfer from
1 Bosanski Samac to the barracks in Brcko, saved many of your lives?
2 A. While I was there, I didn't know what was going to happen with us
3 in Brcko. While we were in Samac, we had already witnessed one murder.
4 Q. From the barracks in Brcko, you were transferred to the military
5 barracks in Bijeljina on the 2nd of May, 1992; is that correct?
6 A. Yes. That was the barracks in Bijeljina, if you mean the military
8 Q. Yes, I mean the military barracks in Bijeljina. Do you know that
9 you were transferred to that barracks in Bijeljina because of the armed
10 conflict that had broken out in Brcko?
11 A. I don't know the reason for our transfer. But a day or two before
12 the transfer, there had been shooting in Brcko.
13 Q. Are you aware of the fact that at that time in Bijeljina, there
14 was no armed conflict?
15 A. All I knew was that there had been a massacre of Muslims in the
16 preceding months in Bijeljina.
17 Q. So you don't know anything about the existence of armed conflict
18 in Bijeljina in May 1992?
19 A. No, I don't know.
20 Q. "Some soldiers in Bijeljina were honest, and they spared us." Is
21 that true or not?
22 A. I met one man who was like that.
23 Q. The officers with whom you had to deal with treated you correctly,
25 A. Some of them who had come after us touring [as interpreted] the
1 battlefields in Croatia, threatened that we should be killed. The first
2 time I witnessed correct and humane treatment by officers was during
3 questioning in Bijeljina by a JNA officer.
4 Q. Do you remember that one JNA officer in Bijeljina had forbidden
5 his soldiers and guards who were guarding you to mistreat you?
6 A. I don't know whether he did or not, but we were subjected to
7 constant abuse and mistreatment during our stay there.
8 Q. And do you remember that he said on that occasion that anyone who
9 fails to comply with his orders would be sent to the front line and have
10 the chance to catch their own Croats and Muslims?
11 A. Yes, one officer did make that statement. And he added: "What we
12 have here are civilians, not prisoners of war. They are civilians."
13 Q. Thank you. On the 13th of May, 1992, from the military barracks
14 in Bijeljina, you were returned to Samac under military police escort.
15 A. Yes, I was returned from the military barracks in Bijeljina to
16 Bosanski Samac.
17 Q. You were turned over to the police force whose chief was Stevan
18 Todorovic; correct?
19 A. We were turned over to the occupier.
20 Q. Mr. Delic, after that you had no further contact with officers of
21 the Yugoslav People's Army; is that correct?
22 A. I don't remember.
23 Q. And do you also remember that you had no further contact with
24 members of the Republika Srpska army?
25 A. I don't remember.
1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. I have
3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, I wonder whether you could just
4 seek one small clarification before sitting down. Page 18, line 19, the
5 witness in an answer to a question from yourself says: "We were turned
6 over to the occupier." Could you seek from the witness what he means
7 by "the occupier," please.
8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I will try.
9 Q. Mr. Delic, in one of your answers, that is, in more than one of
10 your answers, you said that the army and the police in Bosanski Samac were
12 MS. REIDY: Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
14 MS. REIDY: May I object. I don't believe that was Your Honour
15 Judge Williams's question. Her question was precisely what did he mean by
16 the "occupiers" in reference to that particular question.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
18 MS. REIDY: And I don't think that was a correct interpretation of
19 the question from the Bench.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. Stick to the question.
21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I will
22 stick to that question, although, the witness mentioned it not only in
23 that context. He used the term frequently.
24 Q. What did you think and what did you mean when you said that, after
25 being returned from the military barracks in Bijeljina, you were turned
1 over to the occupier, as you formulated it?
2 A. When I say "occupiers," I mean military personnel from Samac and
3 the environs. And when I say "occupiers," I mean the special units from
4 Serbia and the Yugoslav People's Army.
5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.
6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: But the transcript -- the interpretation is -- for
8 both is the same. Line 20 -- I mean, page 20: "When I say occupiers, I
9 mean military personnel from Samac and the environs, and when I say
10 "occupiers," I mean the special units from Serbia and the Yugoslav
11 People's Army."
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said "occupiers" are military
13 persons from Samac and the environs, whereas aggressors are members of the
14 special units and the Yugoslav People's Army.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
16 Yes, who is cross-examining next?
17 MS. BAEN: I am, Your Honour. Could I ask the usher very quickly
18 to bring me a tissue, because I have a big blob on my glasses and I can't
19 see out of one eye. Thank you.
20 Cross-examined by Ms. Baen:
21 Q. Mr. Delic, the way cross-examination goes is usually the Defence
22 asks really short questions which usually are trying to elicit a "yes" or
23 "no" or short answer, and if you need a chance to explain, I promise you
24 Mr. Di Fazio, after we finish, will get up and give -- give you a chance
25 to explain. But if -- I know some difficulty in answering -- in your
1 answering yes or no questions from Mr. Pisarevic, and what happens is,
2 when you have a problem doing that, I have to keep asking you more
3 questions until we get to the bottom line. So if you don't understand any
4 of my questions, let me know. But I want to try to get through this
5 quickly. I promised the Trial Chamber I wouldn't take long. So if we
6 could just sort of move through this. If you have any questions, please
7 let me know.
8 Mr. Delic, you have told the Trial Chamber about some really
9 horrible things that you went through. And you've talked about some other
10 people who you went through these things with in different places in the
11 area of Bosanski Samac, and one of those people you mentioned was a person
12 by the name of Muhamed Bicic. You've known Muhamed Bicic for quite some
13 time, have you not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In fact, you knew him for quite some time before you were in
16 custody together, starting back in April of 1992; is that not correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How long have you known Muhamed Bicic?
19 A. For many years.
20 Q. How many years do you think?
21 A. Ten, twenty. The intensity of our socialising varied.
22 Q. Okay. When you say, "the intensity of your socialising varied,"
23 can you sort of expand on that a little bit. How often did you socialise?
24 A. On the playground of the primary school, while we were both in
25 primary school, we played football. We liked ball games most of all.
1 Later I lived away from Samac during my university studies, and I
2 would sometimes visit his pizzeria, the establishment that he owned.
3 Q. So would you -- would it be fair to say that you and Muhamed Bicic
4 were -- or are long-time, very good friends?
5 A. After the camp, we became real friends.
6 Q. Okay. So before you were in custody together starting in April
7 1992, you had known each other for quite some time and went to school
8 together, but what you're saying is after you were in custody together,
9 you became even better friends; is that correct?
10 A. We didn't go to school together. We went to the same school, and
11 we played in the same schoolyard. After the camp and our suffering, our
12 mutual suffering, I appreciated his brave conduct, and he became a true
14 Q. So the answer to my question, did you become even better friends,
15 is the answer yes or no?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Without mentioning where you now live, you and Muhamed Bicic now
18 live in the same country, don't you?
19 A. I don't know that.
20 Q. Have you had any contact with Muhamed Bicic since you were in
21 custody together in 1992?
22 A. We had a couple of telephone conversations.
23 Q. When was that?
24 A. A few years ago.
25 Q. So you've kept in touch since you were in custody together; is
1 that a true statement?
2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: I object. I think my learned friend is trying to
5 make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. He said, "a couple of telephone
6 conversations" and from that we've got "keeping in touch." Now, a couple
7 of telephone conversations, I would have thought, since 1992 speaks for
8 itself. The conclusion of whether or not they've kept in touch is -- is
9 really speculation, in my submission. I've no problem with this line of
10 questioning and this line of inquiry. I understand why my learned friend
11 is doing it, but if she wants to suggest that they've kept in touch, then
12 it should be made clear to the witness that it's Ms. Baen's idea of
13 keeping in touch with two phone calls since 1992.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Baen.
15 MS. BAEN: Do you want me to respond to that?
16 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think it's necessary.
17 MS. BAEN: I don't think so either.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So proceed, please.
19 MS. BAEN:
20 Q. All right. Since you were -- I'll just make it easy so there's no
21 argument and we can just move on. Since you were in custody together,
22 you've talked on the phone a couple of times; is that not true?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The day before yesterday, you testified to the Trial Chamber when
25 Mr. Di Fazio was asking you about some details about Milan Simic coming to
1 the primary school gym. Mr. Di Fazio asked you: "During the night, do
2 you know who -- did you know then who was taken out?" That was Mr.
3 Di Fazio's question. And your answer was: "Muhamed Bicic came to me in
4 the morning and told me, 'You can imagine, I was beaten by Milan Simic and
5 he visited my pizzeria so many times, and I bought him so many drinks.'"
6 And then the next question was: "Did Muhamed Bicic bear any signs of
8 attack?" And your answer was: "I don't know whether it was from old
9 wounds or new wounds. There were bloodstains on his face, and I tried to
10 wipe them off with a piece of paper." And you went on to answer the next
11 question, which was: "Did you provide any comfort to him or try to
12 provide any comfort to him, other than try to wipe off the blood with a
13 piece of paper?" You answered, "I remained sitting next to him. I tried
14 to give him some kind of psychological support to make it easier for him
15 to forget that night and to instil some hope in him that we would be able
16 to survive all this."
17 And that's what you testified to a couple of days ago; is that not
18 correct; yes or no?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. You met with the Office of the Prosecutor a couple of times
21 since 1995. And you gave a couple of statements, written statements, to
22 the Prosecutors; is that not correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. One was in 1995, and one was in 1998; isn't that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 MS. BAEN: Could the usher assist me, Your Honours, in getting the
2 two statements in front of the witness in the B/C/S version, because I
3 want to ask him some questions.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, he can go ahead.
5 MS. BAEN: Thank you.
6 Q. Okay. Mr. Delic, the usher has brought two documents over to the
7 witness stand, and I'd like for you to take a look at the first document
8 on the first page.
9 MS. BAEN: Mr. Usher, if you could turn the first page so that he
10 could look at it and make sure that that's his name and identify it.
11 Q. Mr. Delic, do you recognise it? Does that look like your witness
12 statement? It says "witness statement" at the top of the page, has your
13 name on it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And on this occasion -- this is a statement from 1995. On this
16 occasion, you gave the OTP detailed, accurate accounts of what happened;
17 is that not correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You spoke freely. No one pressured you, and you gave this
20 statement voluntarily; isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. BAEN: Mr. Usher, could you please turn in the 1995 statement
23 to page 11, the second paragraph which I've highlighted in green.
24 Q. And I'm going to read this to you, Mr. Delic, and I'm going to ask
25 you if this is correct. Is this in your statement? Am I reading this
1 correctly? "Another evening, Milan Simic --
2 MS. BAEN: I'm sorry, the interpreters. I had a problem with the
3 interpreters. Le me start over.
4 Q. "Another evening, Milan Simic, the president of the Serbian
5 authorities in Bosanski Samac, came into the partially dark gym with a
6 group of two to three men, and using a flashlight, selected detainees, and
7 the same thing happened to them that happened to me earlier, that is, they
8 were beaten. I saw Simic beat detainees and heard him say to them, 'Do
9 you know that the president of Serbian authorities, Bosanski Samac, is
11 Okay. Those two sentences, those constitute the only two
12 sentences about Milan Simic in your statement; is that not correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And there's no mention of Muhamed Bicic in there at all, is there
15 in your statement, Muhamed Bicic being beaten by Milan Simic, is there?
16 A. I said that in an earlier statement.
17 Q. There's no mention of him telling you that the very next morning
18 after this beating that he had been beaten by Milan Simic, is there?
19 A. I said that in a previous statement.
20 Q. Okay. So that's correct, what I just said to you? There's no
21 mention of the next morning Muhamed telling you anything, is there? Yes
22 or no?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. No, no.
1 MS. BAEN: Mr. Usher, could you now assist me in putting the 1998
2 statement in front of the witness, the B/C/S version.
3 Q. Mr. Delic, does this look like your statement? Could you take a
4 look at it.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. This is the 1998 statement, is it not?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. BAEN: Mr. Usher, could you please turn to page 3.
9 Q. And Mr. Delic, the second paragraph from the bottom, it's
10 highlighted in green. I'm going to read it to you, and you tell me if
11 this is correct.
12 "During my detention in the elementary school in Bosanski Samac, I
13 think it was June 1992, Hasan Bicic was taken to have an informative talk
14 with Milan Simic. When he returned, he told me that Simic told him that
15 he would allow Hasan to be exchanged, but not his brother. That shows
16 that Milan Simic had authority over exchanges. Later, when Hasan was
17 already exchanged, his brother Muhamed told me on one occasion, that Milan
18 Simic beat him and he also commented, 'Remember how many drinks he
19 (thinking Simic) had in my cafe?' He owned a pizzeria in Bosanski Samac."
20 Did I read that correctly?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So nowhere in this statement does it mention anything about the
23 next morning you comforting Muhamed Bicic, and Muhamed Bicic telling you
24 anything about the Milan Simic incident; isn't that correct?
25 A. The first and the second statements make up a whole.
1 Q. Okay. Well, I appreciate that. But my question is: The day
2 before yesterday, you told the Trial Chamber that you first learned about
3 Muhamed getting beaten by Milan Simic the day after the beating, in fact,
4 you said you wiped blood from his face and helped him. Back in 1998, when
5 you talked to the OTP, you in your statement said that it was sometime
6 later after Hasan Bicic was exchanged that Muhamed told you that one night
7 Milan Simic beat him. Is that not correct?
8 A. Hasan Bicic, Muhamed Bicic's brother --
9 Q. Mr. Delic, it calls for a yes or no answer. If you want to
10 explain it, I promise you Mr. Di Fazio will allow you to explain. I
11 promise you that.
12 A. Could you please repeat your question again.
13 Q. The day before yesterday, you testified to this Trial Chamber that
14 the morning after this Milan Simic incident at the primary school, that
15 next morning, Muhamed Bicic told you that Milan Simic beat him, and you
16 spent the morning comforting him and wiping blood off of his face. That's
17 what you told this Trial Chamber.
18 The statement that I put in front of you that you gave to the OTP
19 in 1998 states that you found out that Milan Simic beat Muhamed not the
20 morning after but sometime later, after Hasan Bicic had been exchanged.
21 Is that not correct? Yes or no?
22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, if Your Honours please, the statement doesn't
25 actually say that he found out later that Milan Simic beat Muhamed, not
1 the morning after but sometime later. That's the implication put upon it
2 by Ms. Baen. Now, I've got again, no problem with this line of
3 questioning. It's perfectly proper. But the way the question was phrased
4 last, in my submission, imports more into what is said in the statement
5 than is justified.
6 I actually have less problems with the way that my learned friend
7 phrased the question the very first time. I know the witness said he
8 couldn't remember, but -- I don't want to split hairs, but it is -- it is,
9 it seems to me, putting a different interpretation on what he's saying in
10 the 1998 statement.
11 MS. BAEN: I don't know how to be any more fair, Your Honour, than
12 to put the statement on the ELMO, read it out for him, and ask him if it's
13 correct or not. He said it was. And so this is Impeachment 101. I mean,
14 this is how we impeach every single witness. I don't know how to be any
15 more fair. I'm giving him a chance to answer the question. It's a yes or
16 no. And then we move on to the next topic.
17 MS. REIDY: I'm sorry, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
19 MS. REIDY: Probably you don't have the statements in front of
20 you, which leads to this confusion. But in fact Ms. Baen is incorrect in
21 her last question, as Mr. Di Fazio pointed out. She said that the
22 witness had said he did not find out until sometime later that Milan Simic
23 had beat Muhamed. That is not in fact what he said in his statement.
24 What he had said in his statement was that Hasan was already exchanged,
25 Muhamed did speak to him and made the comment about how many times he's
1 served him in the pizzeria and that. Now, the problem is when Ms. Baen's
2 question was implying this was the first and only time he found out about
3 the beating. That's not actually what the statement is. It's about the
4 comment, so if Ms. Baen could be clear to the witness exactly what he said
5 in the statement and what he testified to and not make an implication that
6 this was the only time he learnt about the beating, which I'm afraid is
7 the implication from the second way the question was phrased, and that is
8 the Prosecution's objection.
9 MS. BAEN: Why don't we just put the English version on the ELMO
10 and everyone can see whether or not I'm reading it correctly.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think that would help.
12 MS. BAEN: That's fine with me.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: The paragraphs which you read out.
14 MS. BAEN: Sure. That's fine. That's great.
15 Everybody else has got the B/C/S investigation. I'm the only
16 person reading English, so I need another copy. I apologise, Your Honour.
17 It's your suggestion that we read the statements out, let the witness
18 agree, say "yes" or "no," but if this will clear things up, I'm happy to
19 do that.
20 Mr. Usher, I guess the best thing to do is put the 1998 statement
21 in front -- the B/C/S version in front of the witness and then put the
22 English on the ELMO, which I think you've already done.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Now which paragraph, Ms. Baen?
24 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, it is page 3. It's the second paragraph
25 from the bottom. And it says -- there's a little title there that says,
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
3 MS. BAEN: Do you want me to go ahead and read it Your Honour?
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please. Slowly.
5 MS. BAEN: Yes.
6 Q. "During my detention in the elementary school in Bosanski Samac, I
7 think it was June 1992, Hasan Bicic was taken to have an informative talk
8 with Milan Simic. When he returned, he told me that Simic told him that
9 he would allow Hasan to be exchanged, but not his brother. That shows
10 that Milan Simic had authority over exchanges. Later, when Hasan was
11 already exchanged, his brother Muhamed told me on one occasion, that Milan
12 Simic beat him and he also commented 'remember how many drinks he
13 (thinking Simic) had in my cafe?' He owned a pizzeria in Bosanski Samac."
14 My only question now -- and we can move on to something else --
15 is: Did I read that correctly or not, Mr. Delic; yes or no?
16 A. This is a part that happened several months before.
17 Q. Mr. Delic.
18 A. When Mr. Hasan Bicic was taken to Milan Simic --
19 MS. BAEN: Your Honour.
20 A. The second part, it says in the statement.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Baen --
22 A. And it fits in with the second statement.
23 In the statement, from 1998, in the first part, we're talking
24 about the fact that Hasan Bicic was at -- with Milan Simic, and that he
25 told him that he would be released but that his brother would not be
1 released. This happened sometime before Milan Simic came into the gym and
2 beat people, which means that the last part which talks about what Muhamed
3 told me sometime later, fits in with the part of the statement from 1995.
4 So there is a period pertaining to something that happened before Milan
5 Simic was at the gym. At that time, Hasan Bicic was with him, and he told
6 him that he would be released, and he was exchanged.
7 After that, the second part is about when Milan Simic came to the
8 gym. People were taken out after that. And then the next morning,
9 Muhamed Bicic is telling me about how Milan Simic beat me but remember how
10 many free drinks he drank at my pizzeria. So these are two time periods,
11 the visit or the questioning of Hasan Bicic by Milan Simic, following
12 which he told me that he promised that he would be exchanged. The second
13 part is after a certain amount of time when Milan Simic was in the gym of
14 the primary school, when he took people out. And then the next morning,
15 Muhamed Bicic told me that Milan Simic had beaten him, even though he had
16 had so many free drinks at his pizzeria. So this is a time shift which
17 must be understood in order to incorporate these two statements.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Baen.
19 MS. BAEN:
20 Q. Are you finished, Mr. Delic? Do you want to explain any more?
21 A. When there is need to do so. Thank you.
22 Q. Okay. So for the record, the answer to my question, please -- my
23 question: Did I read that portion of the 1998 statement correctly; yes or
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Baen, we followed the reading, and it was on the
2 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, just -- if I have a yes or no, then the
3 impeachment is completely finished, concluded. For the record, I need to
4 get an answer for my question, and I can move on to the next topic. Did I
5 read it correctly? He followed along with me twice. If he can just
6 answer yes or no. If I didn't read it correctly --
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
8 MS. BAEN:
9 Q. Did I read it correctly to the Trial Chamber?
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, the question is whether the text was read
11 correctly, not understood correctly. Okay? They are two different
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 MS. BAEN: All right. Your Honour now we may need to move into
15 closed session because I'm going to go into some positioning in the
16 primary school and I -- just to be safe, the witness might mention a name
17 that might be protected.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we go into the private session.
19 Ms. Baen, I don't know how long the private session will take, but
20 we have only a few minutes before the break. Maybe we can have our break
21 and then come back, go into private session for your continued
23 MS. BAEN: That sounds good, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll take our break now and continue our
25 proceedings at 16.15 hours.
1 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.
3 [Private session]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
12 Pages 6789 to 6807 redacted, private session.
6 [Open session]
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Should I repeat my question?
9 A. Yes, please repeat it.
10 Q. In your testimony before this Trial Chamber when you were asked by
11 the Prosecutor to a question on page 6634 of the transcript, you said that
12 "All national parties had their own national militias or police forces
13 which existed parallel with the regular police forces." Is this true?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember that in the course of 1991 -- now we're talking
16 about the end of 1991 and early 1992 -- that there were several sabotages
17 in Samac and its environs?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember the events in early 1992, when a bomb exploded in
20 the Valentino Cafe, when several people were killed?
21 A. Yes. That's what happened.
22 Q. Do you remember the protest rally held by Muslims because of this
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you remember that checkpoints were set up by members of the SDA
1 throughout Samac?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you remember that there was a conflict between the SDA forces
4 and members of the 4th Detachment who were riding in a car?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And on that occasion, members of the 4th Detachment were wounded,
7 and one of them later died as a result.
8 A. Yes. I remember that there were wounded, but I don't remember if
9 anyone died.
10 Q. Do you remember that about a month before the conflict broke out
11 in Bosanski Samac, an attack was expected, and that there were different
12 stories going around?
13 A. After these incidents, people were disturbed.
14 Q. Does that mean that the situation in Bosanski Samac before the
15 17th of April was tense and that there were tensions present?
16 A. Yes, we could say that.
17 Q. Now I'm going to ask you questions about a different topic, and
18 that is your detention in the TO building. So we're talking about the
19 period after you were arrested, the period immediately after Stevan
20 Todorovic ordered that you be taken to the TO premises. Dragan Lukac was
21 also detained together with you.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. He was the chief of police of Bosanski Samac before the 16th of
24 April, 1992.
25 A. I don't know exactly what he was.
1 Q. But he did work in the police?
2 A. I think so, yes.
3 Q. Grga Zubak was also detained with you.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He also worked at the police.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Sejad Mujkanovic was also in detention with you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. He also worked at the police?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was Salko Kurtic also detained with you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was he a member of the police?
14 A. I don't know that.
15 Q. Please tell me, do you know that a few days, a couple of days
16 before the conflict broke out, a couple of days before the 17th of April,
17 the TO staff headquarters was formed at the head of which was Marko
18 Bozanovic and the head of which was Alija Fitozovic?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So you don't know that. But do you know that on the 16th of
21 April, weapons were distributed to Muslims and Croats by some people in
22 the TO building?
23 A. No, I don't know that.
24 Q. Are you aware that your neighbour Osman Jasarevic received weapons
25 from the TO?
1 A. No, I don't know that.
2 Q. Do you know that he was at the barricades which were put up by the
4 A. No, I don't know that.
5 Q. Did you socialise with him?
6 A. We were good neighbours. He worked in the same company that I
7 worked in.
8 Q. Do you know whether he handed over his weapon when this was
9 requested by the military?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. On the day that you went out in front of your building and were
12 asked to hand over your weapons, if you had any, was your neighbour with
13 you at that time?
14 A. No, he wasn't.
15 Q. Was your neighbour a hunter?
16 A. Yes, he was.
17 Q. Did he have hunting weapons?
18 A. He had to.
19 Q. Do you know whether he handed over any of those weapons?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Well, you heard about the order which was announced that weapons
22 had to be handed over. Was he obliged to hand over his weapons in order
23 to comply with this order?
24 A. Well, I wouldn't say that he was obliged to but that he had to do
25 so, because Samac was already occupied by then, if he had any weapons.
1 Q. Do you know Ibrahim Salkic, called Ibela?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know, was he arrested and was he in the same premises where
4 you were, together with you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And after that, was he in Batkovici and Bijeljina, and then
7 together with you in the primary school?
8 A. You mentioned Batkovic.
9 Q. Sorry, I meant Brcko.
10 A. Samac, Brcko, and Bijeljina is true.
11 Q. And also the primary school after that?
12 A. Yes, back in Samac.
13 Q. Do you know that Ibrahim Salkic, on the night of the 17th of
14 April, moved around the town with weapons?
15 A. No, I don't know that.
16 Q. Did you talk with him during your detention about the
17 circumstances of his arrest and the possible reasons for it?
18 A. We didn't talk about that.
19 Q. Did you talk about who was arrested where?
20 A. I don't know where he was arrested.
21 Q. Generally, did you talk with anybody else about the circumstances
22 of arrest?
23 A. Only with my neighbour Jasarevic.
24 Q. I'm asking you this because on page 6674 of the transcript, in
25 response to the Prosecutor's question, you answered -- and I will read it
1 in English.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Please read the question as well.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Realtime transcript read in error "Mr. Lazarevic"]
4 Q. [Interpretation] To the question by the Prosecutor: [In English]
5 Arrested [Realtime transcript read in error "addressed"] a soldier or did
6 you heard them report that they'd been arrested while carrying out the
7 sort of activities soldiers carry out?"
8 Answer: "In the room."
9 There's a mistake in the transcript. "Arrested," not "addressed."
10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Actually, while there are corrections, I think
11 maybe we'd take out Mr. Lazarevic's name on line 14 and add your own.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes.
13 Answer: "In the room, there were only civilians. No one had been
14 arrested as a soldier. No one had been arrested while in combat, while
15 fighting. They had all been brought from their homes."
16 Q. [Interpretation] This last sentence of your answer, when you say,
17 "They were all brought from their homes," prompts me to say that you must
18 have talked about the circumstances of the arrest, about how these people
19 were brought in. So did you speak about the circumstances of arrest and
20 the possible reasons?
21 A. Details how each person was arrested, in which way, was something
22 that we didn't discuss. Everybody simply said that they were civilians,
23 which we knew anyway, and that they were gathered up from their homes. It
24 was always just a question of what a person was charged with. We were --
25 it was all clear -- it was clear to all of us that we were brought from
1 our homes and that we were all civilians.
2 Q. So you didn't talk to anybody about where they were arrested. You
3 simply concluded things.
4 A. Had somebody been arrested or taken -- or captured during combat,
5 we would know that right away, and they wouldn't be together with us. I
6 believe that this person or such a person would probably have been shot.
7 Q. Do you know where Sejad Mujkanovic was arrested?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you know he was arrested in the street?
10 A. In the street or at home or somewhere else around the town. We
11 thought of it as being arrested at home. It was our home. The town was
12 our home.
13 Q. Do you know where Dragan Lukac was arrested?
14 A. Dragan Lukac was arrested when he was trying to leave Bosanski
16 Q. Do you know that these policemen I mentioned had been arrested at
17 the bridge and they were in police uniforms?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How was Sejad Mujkanovic dressed?
20 A. In civilian clothing, as I remember.
21 Q. How was Ibrahim Salkic dressed? Did he have green huntsman's
22 trousers and a jacket?
23 A. I can't remember that detail. Just please don't ask me what kind
24 of socks or underwear he wore.
25 Q. I'm only asking you about his clothes, if you remember.
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. Does that mean that you consider those policemen who were with you
3 as civilians, too?
4 A. Are you talking about --
5 Q. I'm talking about Mujkanovic, Lukac.
6 A. In my mind, Lukac is a civilian. I never saw him in a policeman's
7 uniform. I never saw him anywhere in town wearing a policeman's uniform.
8 Q. Grga Zubak?
9 A. Grga Zubak and Mujkanovic, I did see wearing uniforms. But they
10 were members of the regular police force in Samac before the aggression
11 and occupation. They were regular police officers.
12 Q. So let us conclude this. Some of the arrested men were regular
13 police officers.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You mentioned when the Prosecution was showing this video footage,
16 one of the Stjepanovic brothers; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are you aware that the Stjepanovic brothers were arrested in Brcko
19 as soldiers, members of the HVO?
20 A. When I saw them, they were in civilian clothes. When they brought
21 them to Brcko, to the prison.
22 Q. Did they say anything about who arrested them and where?
23 A. They were brought in by the military police. And one of them said
24 they were going to work by car, and pulled over at a petrol station which
25 was privately owned, somewhere either in Brcko or outside, I don't know.
1 Q. And do you know that another Stjepanovic, a relative of theirs,
2 was also arrested with them? He was first convicted to death -- to
3 execution, and then received clemency and was exchanged.
4 A. I'm not aware of that.
5 Q. When I asked you about those ethnic militias, are you aware that
6 the SDA had one of their own?
7 A. At the meeting which I already mentioned and said that it was
8 attended by Simo Zaric, who spoke about the 4th Detachment, I also said
9 that he asked all national parties to tell the number of men in their
10 ethnic militias, and that is when I learned about the existence of those
11 ethnic militias.
12 Q. And do you know who armed these militias?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you perhaps discuss it with Sulejman Tihic?
15 A. Never.
16 Q. I'll now move to another topic and ask the witness to be shown
17 Exhibit D29/1.
18 Do you see this certificate?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell me who these persons are who are mentioned. I
21 suppose Feota Delic is your son?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Almerija Delic is your daughter, isn't she?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. This one -- this 1984, I suppose, is the -- is Feota's year of
1 birth. And I --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And I suppose the other year of birth, 1981, is Almerija's?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you tell me who provided the details for this certificate.
6 Did you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And these personal details are correct, aren't they?
9 A. Yes. 1981, and 1974.
10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, counsel. In terms of correctness, if
11 we look at the second certificate, which is the witness's daughter, it
12 does list her as being the son of. So when you ask whether the
13 certificates are correct, maybe you could check whether the B/C/S version
14 is the same as the English version on that issue.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I wanted to
16 have clarified.
17 Q. So this is just a form here. It should say "daughter" here below
18 on the certificate?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Could you tell me now, this phrasing "was arrested," were your
21 children arrested?
22 A. They were in Bosanski Samac, which was a town turned into a camp.
23 They could not leave of their own free will, and I believe they were
25 Q. But they were arrested and placed in confinement by the police?
1 A. They could not leave the town, as they wanted to, so they were
3 Q. But they were not arrested by the police.
4 A. They were arrested as well because the town itself was a big camp,
5 and they couldn't leave as they pleased.
6 Q. But could Serbs, for instance, leave the town without special
7 permission, or they needed one too?
8 A. You should ask Serbs that.
9 Q. I'm asking you.
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Tell me, if everything on this certificate is correct, will you
12 please look at the date of issue of this certificate in the left-hand
13 upper corner. It says, "8th September, 1992."
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You said, testifying before this Court, that you got it on the 4th
16 of September, 1992, when you were exchanged; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Could you explain the discrepancy? Or you received this
19 certificate later perhaps?
20 A. The certificate was later returned for rechecking, for
21 verification, and then it was dated and stamped. And then the names were
22 checked, and we got it back from Djakovo registered and stamped. There
23 were two -- there were two certificates, actually, two copies, one for the
24 person who was exchanged and one filed in this Crisis Staff.
25 Q. So you saw those people from the Crisis Staff?
1 A. I didn't see anyone from the Crisis Staff.
2 Q. You just said that one copy remains at the Crisis Staff. Could
3 you please explain.
4 A. They filled out the forms of the certificates simultaneously
5 outside the bus, one copy to be handed to the person to be exchanged and
6 other to remain with them.
7 Q. How come the date is four days later?
8 A. One had to take that certificate, go to that Crisis Staff, report
9 one's new address, get a new certificate, and get a refugee's card.
10 Q. So that's what you did?
11 A. An acquaintance did it for me.
12 Q. Did you use that certificate anywhere?
13 A. When I went from Djakovo to Osijek, I used it to get registered as
14 a refugee in order to be eligible for humanitarian aid.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. I'm
16 finished. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination?
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Just very few questions
19 Re-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:
20 Q. This document that you've got before, did you personally write in
21 and fill in the gaps, or did you just provide the information that's
22 contained in it?
23 A. I provided the information.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I have very few questions
25 in re-examination. But I -- unfortunately, I think we'd have to go into
1 private session for me to complete it.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll go into private session.
3 [Private session]
13 Page 6821 redacted, private session.
13 Page 6822 redacted, private session.
13 Page 6823 redacted, private session.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 -- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
24 at 5.41 p.m., to be followed by
25 a Status Conference