Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8650

1 Friday, 31 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo

9 Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination is continuing with

11 Mr. Pisarevic, for ten minutes, and then Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic: [Continued]

16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Fitozovic.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. Yesterday we left off when we were discussing whether you are

19 expert enough to discuss certain things. I have a following question for

20 you: You returned to Bosanski Samac at around 1300 hours from the village

21 of Prud?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Can you tell us at what time, approximately, you returned?

24 A. I can. At around 9.30.

25 Q. Thank you. Did you return on your own, or did someone else come

Page 8651

1 with you?

2 A. I returned with a driver. That was in our second attempt. I

3 managed to cross.

4 Q. Was that driver, other driver, Mr. Namik Suljic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would need

8 assistance from the Trial Chamber. It is my intention to show certain

9 documents to the witness. This is the document entitled "The

10 organisational structure of the defence of the town." The document has

11 been disclosed to the Prosecution. We do have the translation of this

12 document. However, in the course of the proceedings, in various stages of

13 the proceedings, some attachments to this document have been used and have

14 been shown to various witnesses and were assigned certain numbers by the

15 Registry. However, since this document contains 17 pages, I'm not quite

16 sure how to tender this document, whether in its entirety, all the 17

17 pages, or to continue looking at it in parts, each attachment in itself.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: It very much depends on how you want to present your

19 Defence case, whether you want to have it as a whole document or there are

20 just certain pages you want to use, in which case then we simply consider

21 the pages.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm really sorry. I

23 didn't get the interpretation.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. Okay. I'll repeat what I was saying. I

25 said that the presentation of the document depends entirely on how you

Page 8652

1 intend to use it in your defence. If you want to use it as an entire

2 document, which means -- the story is continuous, or whether it is

3 separate aspects of the document you want to use, in which case then you

4 can only present those pages you need if they have already been referred

5 to, in which case they already have a number, then we simply get it from

6 the Registry. If there are new pages you need, we simply introduce them

7 for the first time. It's entirely up to you.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I then

9 wish to tender this document in its entirety. I want to have it admitted

10 in its entirety, the 17-page-long document, entitled "The organisational

11 structure and establishment for the units of the defence of the town."

12 And now I would like this document to be distributed to the Prosecution.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it dated?

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] No, it is not dated.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. All right. Yes, you can distribute it, and

16 let's see.

17 Mr. Weiner?

18 MR. WEINER: I'm just waiting for a copy of the document.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, to look at it.

20 MR. WEINER: Yes.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Before I even ask the Prosecution, I just want to

22 ask Mr. Pisarevic: Is it the position of your Defence case that this

23 document was produced in its entirety as it is, page 18, or have you just

24 collected the various pieces and put them together?

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a single

Page 8653

1 document.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, with permission of the Bench, if I

4 may be able to approach Mr. Weiner --


6 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- and maybe show him something. I think it could

7 possibly speed up --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay, yes. Maybe you can do that, yes.

9 [Prosecution and Defence counsel confer]

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. You've got the document?

11 MR. WEINER: I have now.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. I see. So you just got this whole one right

13 now, during the proceedings? I thought you had been given the document

14 before.

15 MR. WEINER: Apparently Mr. Zecevic filed this sometime back in

16 August.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: As an entire document, or just pieces of it? As an

18 entire document?

19 MR. WEINER: I have no idea. I assume as an entire document. And

20 apparently the next document they're going to file was translated

21 together, so there's a little bit of a confusion with the number. I think

22 what we have got to do is show them to the witness. It's really the

23 witness who can tell if it's an entire document.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: It will very much depend on what questions will be

25 discussed with the witness and thereafter then you can indicate your

Page 8654

1 position.

2 MR. WEINER: Correct. And some of the documents within the first

3 package have already been discussed with the witness. It concerns the

4 hunters' section.


6 MR. WEINER: But others have not been discussed. Some two of the

7 documents in the first package the witness indicated were a forgery or

8 some sort of manufactured -- so it's up to the witness.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let's see how the Defence goes about it.

10 Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. The question of admissibility will be done

11 after -- will be discussed after you've gone through the document with the

12 witness.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Could we

14 perhaps be given the ID for this document?


16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document will be D25/4

17 for the English translation and D25/4 ter ID for the B/C/S version. Thank

18 you.


20 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise, Your Honours. Maybe I

21 misunderstood your directions from yes.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Since the case is severed for Mr. Milan Simic.


25 MR. PANTELIC: Do we still have this "/43" because now we are

Page 8655

1 three defendants? Or we shall leave it --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. To lessen confusion it's better to leave the

3 numbering as they are.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. Sorry.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the document to

6 be placed on the ELMO and then I would like to talk about it for a while

7 with Mr. Fitozovic. Could the English translation please be put on the

8 ELMO, and you can let the gentleman keep the Serbian version.

9 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, before you, you have a document. You already spoke

10 about the attachments thereto, and you stated that you authored the

11 attachments. I would now like you to read the attachment number 1?

12 MR. WEINER: I would object at this time.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

14 MR. WEINER: I'd object to the statement that he has already

15 indicated that he authored the attachments. He has not indicated that he

16 authored all of the attachments. Selected attachments he has authored.

17 He indicated that some were fraudulent or forged or however you want to

18 categorise it.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because the question is talking about all

20 attachments, and if you look at the document, right from page 1, it's

21 attachment number 1, up to the end, and some of the pages -- yes, up to

22 attachment 9.4 on page 18. So I think Mr. Weiner's objection is

23 sustained. You had better go through maybe each attachment to see which

24 ones the witness had agreed that he had authored them.

25 MR. WEINER: Including the cover page too.

Page 8656

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, starting from page 1, yes.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Also, Mr. Pisarevic, I really think, for the sake

3 of justice and the accused persons, that we should have them being able to

4 read the B/C/S version on the ELMO, because at the moment all we have is

5 the English version, and I don't think that is quite correct.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I agree with you, Your Honour.

7 Could we then have the English - I'm sorry - Serbian version on

8 the ELMO, the B/C/S version.

9 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, would you be so kind to read the first page that

10 you have before you.

11 A. Yes, I will do so. "SDA, Party of Democratic Action, Bosanski

12 Samac."

13 Q. Could you now please read what is written in the top right-hand

14 corner.

15 A. Yes, I will "strictly confidential, attachment number 1, copy

16 number 2."

17 Q. Would you now be so kind as to read the title, which is in the

18 middle of the page.

19 A. "Organisational and establishment structure of the unit for the

20 defence of the town."

21 Q. Thank you. Is this the document, or rather, did you author this

22 page?

23 A. I did not author the first page, because obviously there's

24 something wrong with the number 2 here.

25 Q. Could you please now turn to page 2. This page has already been

Page 8657

1 shown to you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This is the municipal Crisis Staff D2/4. That's its number. You

4 said that you did not make this document but that the people listed here

5 in this document were mostly the members of the SDA Crisis Staff?

6 A. I said that there was no municipal Crisis Staff. I said that

7 there was only the SDA Crisis Staff.

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. Just for the sake of

9 clarity, can we just agree on the page numbering here, just so that we're

10 all following exactly what is progressing with your cross-examination?

11 Because we have -- I'm looking right now at the English version. We have

12 a page 1 at the bottom of the page, and then the next page number is 5,

13 then 6, then 7, and so on. Now, that might well be a computer page

14 numbering or a fax page numbering, but I think we have to be exactly sure

15 what we're talking about. Because also at the top of the page, the fax

16 page numbering, we begin on page 2 and then we go to page 6, 7, and so

17 on. So I think we want to be exactly clear that we're all looking at the

18 same page at the same time.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, if I may explain.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think we need an explanation.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: I already explained that to my colleague,

22 Mr. Weiner. That was probably what was confusing him. We gave --

23 actually, Mr. Zecevic, as Defence counsel of Mr. Simic, gave two documents

24 together of translation.


Page 8658

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: So when we received the translation, that was a

2 joint translation of two documents, and this explains. First page of this

3 document, then three pages of another document, and then it continues with

4 page 4, 5, 6. So now we separated these two documents as soon as we

5 noticed that, and this is the explanation why the numbers of translations

6 are not going in lines.


8 MR. LAZAREVIC: But I can assure the Court that after this

9 document, Mr. Pisarevic will tender the other document of three pages --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Which is a different document from this one.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, this is actually a different document but

12 they were given on translation together. So the translators actually --

13 maybe it was Mr. Zecevic's fault. I cannot say that, but the two

14 documents were translated together and this explains why this --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: So what the position is with D25/4 ID, it starts at

16 the bottom, from page 1, and moves to page 5.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Actually, yes. -- other document.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: And then there follows consecutively to page 18.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: It is very obvious.


21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let's make sure that

22 we're all looking at the same page. The best thing would be to look at

23 the upper right-hand corner, where it says "attachment number --" and then

24 it will say 2, 3, 4, and so on and so forth.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can proceed that way.

Page 8659

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Are all the persons listed on this document Muslim?

3 A. Yes, on this document they are all Muslim.

4 Q. Thank you. Could you now take a look at the attachment number 3,

5 that's page 3.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You've already seen this document as well?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I will just ask you the following, then --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Before, Mr. Pisarevic, let's stick to one line of

11 identifying the pages. Simply say attachment number 3. Don't say page 3,

12 because the page at the bottom, there's no page 3. So simply stick to

13 attachment number, that's all. All right? Then we don't get confused

14 that way.

15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So this is attachment number 3. We have already talked about

17 this.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You said that there was no municipal military staff. Can you tell

20 me if there was a town board of SDA of Bosanski Samac?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Could you then tell me if the persons on this list are all

23 Muslims?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Attachment 4.1, you have not seen this document before. It has

Page 8660

1 not been shown to you before, that is to say.

2 A. Yes, I have not seen it before.

3 Q. Could you please tell me whether you are the author of this

4 document?

5 A. I wouldn't be able to say that right away. This is the third day

6 of cross-examination, and I feel somewhat tired physically. In order for

7 my testimony to be relevant, I don't think I am able to answer this

8 question right now. I would need some time to concentrate.

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Fitozovic, I'm just wondering - and this is a

10 general question - with respect to the lists that you've seen and some of

11 which -- or maybe all of which are contained in this document, I'm just

12 wondering how you drew the lists you wrote together. Did you know, for

13 example, that certain people should be on the hunters' lists because they

14 were hunters, certain persons should be on the communications list,

15 certain on the supply list, and certain persons because perhaps you knew

16 they had military training and should be on the anti-sabotage list? I'm

17 just wondering how you drew up the lists that you can recall that in fact

18 you drew up.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in front of me I have a

20 document that consists of 17 or 18 pages, and this is the first time that

21 I see the entire document. When I came up to attachment 3, I noticed that

22 there were certain things that are truthful, that correspond to the truth,

23 but certain other documents were not true. Maybe the signature of the

24 attachment 4 made sense. I'm going to answer your question. The unit

25 that I created was based exclusively on the survey that I conducted

Page 8661

1 amongst the citizens of Bosanski Samac. So there was a questionnaire that

2 was made like a table: Under number 1 -- so there were ordinal numbers,

3 and the first number contained information of the person's first, last

4 name, and father's name, then there was the unique identification number

5 of every citizen, then the next row contained the military specialty. It

6 was called the Ves number, but it was really the military specialty that

7 was done by that person while serving the military service in the JNA, so

8 every person filling out this questionnaire would enter what kind of

9 military specialty or course they had during their JNA service.

10 In the fifth column, the signature of that citizen was located,

11 and these signatures were all done voluntarily.

12 Your Honour, if the Defence managed to obtain these documents

13 while they were looting my apartment, they could have also shown this

14 Tribunal the other pieces of evidence, and also many other documents that

15 were found in my briefcase, but those other documents might not suit the

16 Defence. This document looks like one single document, but while I looked

17 at the first four pages, I noticed that not everything is quite the way it

18 should be. I was also trained in the military, and I was trained to make

19 certain copies or forge certain things. It's a well-known fact how to

20 make those things. It's a kind of a tactic, really. It's kind of an

21 accepted tactic.

22 So at this moment, considering the fact that I was cross-examined

23 the day before yesterday, yesterday, and even today, and then two and a

24 half days before that I was answering the questions of the Prosecutor, at

25 this very moment I really would not like to discuss this document. I'm

Page 8662

1 not trying to avoid to say my opinion about this document and to help both

2 the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber and, of course, as well, the

3 Defence. Because of my physical weakness, I do not want to say something

4 that is not true, which, if I did do so, this might have repercussions for

5 the defendants, and I would not like to say anything that is not true. I

6 would like to ask you to bear in mind what I just said.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Fitozovic. Some of your explanations are

8 acceptable, but I just want to correct you when you said that some of the

9 documents found in your apartment when it was looted by the Defence.

10 There is no evidence to that effect, and I do hope that the Defence don't

11 take it the way the witness put it. There is no such evidence before the

12 Trial Chamber.

13 Coming to your explanation as to whether or not you can remember

14 whether or not you authored some of the documents, you can answer the best

15 way you can. If you notice that the particular document appears to

16 contain information you might have authored but it looks different today,

17 as presented to you, then you say so.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just one other thing, Mr. Fitozovic. In your --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Sorry. Mr. Fitozovic, you mentioned in response

21 to my question as to how you formulated the lists that you yourself have

22 mentioned before, that you drafted. And you've just stated that you did a

23 survey to the persons, citizens in Bosanski Samac. I just would like to

24 know whether this survey was sent to persons of all ethnic groups in

25 Bosanski Samac.

Page 8663

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I testified, Your Honour, two

2 days ago, I said that the survey was public and that it was conducted on

3 the streets, in a public place, in front of the hotel in Bosanski Samac.

4 So every citizen could come up and sign their name and register. Whoever

5 didn't want to do so could go to the other side of the street or just pass

6 by the table without stopping. So nobody was forced to do it. I also

7 said in my testimony that many names that are on the lists, that the very

8 people that signed their voluntary -- that they were voluntarily joining

9 the unit had no time to find out what kind of a duty they would have

10 within the Territorial Defence.

11 In this document that is in front of me, the first page does not

12 correspond to what it's supposed to be like, and that that is starting

13 from the very top of the page, because it says "SDA party," but I think

14 that in the future, my future testimony here, I will be able to say more

15 about the relationship between the SDA and this unit, that is to say, that

16 there was no relationship between the SDA party and the formation of this

17 unit.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, these documents are very important, and we have to

20 go through them. Therefore, I would like to ask you, if at all possible,

21 to go through them now. You do not have to say a lot about these

22 documents. You should just say whether you are the author of a particular

23 document or not, or you should just say "I don't know." So these are the

24 three options that you have. And I do understand that you are tired. We

25 all are, and this is not easy on any of us. But if you could please try a

Page 8664

1 little bit harder to go through these documents. I do not want you to

2 feel that this testimony is some kind of a torture for you, but I do feel

3 that you should try a little bit harder so that we can finish these things

4 up.

5 A. Well, this kind of a pace feels exactly like what you just said.

6 Q. So we reached attachment 4.1.

7 A. Mr. Pisarevic, as I said, I cannot follow this in such a way.

8 This is a collection of --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- true documents and those that are

11 not.


13 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I have a suggestion. Since the witness

14 is seeing a lot of these documents for the first time, some possibly for

15 the first time in years, maybe a ten minute recess. I don't have to talk

16 to him. Let him go to the witness room, go through these 15 or so

17 documents, as opposed to having him look at each one of these for the

18 first time and spend five minutes per document. Maybe we could just do

19 this to save some time.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think that in fact Judge Lindholm was making

21 a similar suggestion, that we give him time.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have another

23 suggestion. Since I am planning to tender another document into

24 evidence. It only has three pages. While the witness is looking at the

25 first document he might also take a look at the second document. This is

Page 8665

1 a document that is called -- I'm going to find the title right away.

2 MR. WEINER: Is this the organisation and method of receiving,

3 transmitting, and conveying orders for the mobilisation? Is that that

4 one?

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's exactly the document I

6 was talking about.

7 MR. WEINER: That was just given to me. That's fine. Give him

8 all the documents so we can move on and get through this.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pisarevic, this is another problem --

10 counsel, I hope you can hear me. This is another problem we've been

11 discussing throughout this case on documents. Why weren't these documents

12 given to the Prosecution before today? I know that some pages, they have

13 been discussed, but those that haven't been discussed in this case so

14 far. Mr. Pisarevic?

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I'm the one who is called to respond

16 to this question. First of all, these documents -- this document, both

17 these documents, were disclosed to the Prosecutor months ago. Then, the

18 day before yesterday, I gave this document to the Prosecution, to Mr. -- I

19 don't remember what was his last name, but who was case manager of the

20 Prosecution.


22 MR. LAZAREVIC: And so I believe we did everything. I don't feel

23 that we did anything to ambush the Prosecution or something. So there are

24 at least two times that we gave this document to the Prosecution.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. Okay. All right.

Page 8666

1 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'm not objecting. They can show the

2 documents. I don't know what the mix-up was, but I think the easiest

3 thing is to send the witness out.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So --

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll give the witness -- we will adjourn for 20

7 minutes so that the witness can go through the documents and then perhaps

8 he'll be able to give his answers when we come back. We shall resume the

9 proceedings at 1520. And this means we will recap. We may not have the

10 normal breaks that we have because of the 15-minute break that we are

11 going to have now. The Court will rise for 20 minutes. We shall resume

12 the proceedings at 1520

13 --- Recess taken at 2.58 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 3.20 p.m.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. You can continue.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, are you ready to proceed?

18 A. Yes, I am.

19 Q. Now we've come to attachment 4.1.

20 A. Could we please go from the beginning?

21 Q. From the beginning?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I believe that we have already gone through these?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Now that the witness has had time to look at

25 these, can we just start again, please.

Page 8667

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

2 Could you just put the English translation, page 1, on the ELMO.

3 No. In fact, the Serb version.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I thought we had an extra copy besides the one

5 the witness has to look at.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You have had the opportunity to look at these documents during the

8 break?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please be so kind as to read what is written in the top

11 left-hand corner. We have already gone through this. The attachment 1,

12 is this an attachment that you authored?

13 A. I did not author page 1, and it of course does not correspond to

14 the original.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Just a question of clarification

16 here.

17 Mr. Fitozovic, if you did not author page 1, how do you know that

18 it did not correspond to the original?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 1 in the original

20 was titled "The municipal staff of the Territorial Defence of Bosanski

21 Samac," not "Party of Democratic Action." I would like to ask if they

22 have the original, not the photocopy of the document but the original. If

23 I had that, I would be able to be even more specific.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8668

1 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you have already told us that you did not author

2 this document; is that correct?

3 A. I'm sorry. Are you -- when you say "a document," are you

4 referring to just one page or its entirety?

5 Q. The entirety. But we decided to go page by page. The title page

6 is marked as attachment 1. You can see here where it says "attachment 1."

7 A. Yes, I see, attachment 1, and I see that it says here "copy 2."

8 Q. I asked you a question about the attachment 2, and there is also

9 the -- it says here "copy 2." You say that you did not author this

10 document.

11 A. I did not author page 1 of this document.

12 Q. Can we go on to attachment 2.

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, for the sake of clarity, I just

15 want for the record to get this straight. The witness, I think quite

16 correctly, is asking you, when you say this is page 18, line 25,

17 Mr. Fitozovic says: "Are you -- when you say "a document," are referring

18 just to one page or its entirety?" Mr. Pisarevic, your answer is: "The

19 entirety." But then you say: "But we decided to go page by page." I

20 think from the point of view of the record and for the sake of the

21 witness, we need, for the record, for you to say that we are going to ask

22 the witness, page by page, whether he can attest that this was a document

23 that he knows and he authored, because your response there, by saying "the

24 entirety," on line 2 of page 19, is quite oblique because of what follows.

25 I think we need to have this exactly clear.

Page 8669

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you have before you the entire document that

3 contains 17 pages. The pages are numbered in the following way: The

4 title of the document is "The organisational and establishment structure

5 of the unit of the defence of the town." The pages are numbered in such a

6 way that the front page, page 1 of the document, is designated as

7 attachment 1.

8 A. Copy 2.

9 Q. Could you just take it slowly.

10 A. Yes. Copy 2.

11 Q. I will ask you about the document in its entirety by going through

12 the document page by page, quoting the attachments as they are designated,

13 asking you whether the document in its entirety was made by you or whether

14 just some parts of the document were made by you. Can we do it like that?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, that is wrong, because you are

16 confusing both the entire document and page by page. Can we do it page by

17 page, okay? Let's start with attachment 1. You ask your questions of the

18 witness. Because I don't want confusion, because we also know that some

19 of the pages, some of the documents in this page, have already been

20 discussed. So attachment 1. Go ahead with your question.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Attachment 1 is a document entitled "Organisational and

23 establishment structure of the units for the Defence of the town," made by

24 the SDA, Party for Democratic Action, in Bosanski Samac. Do you recognise

25 this document as a document that you yourself made or not?

Page 8670

1 A. Attachment 1, copy 2, entitled "The organisational and

2 establishment structure for the unit of the defence of the town," authored

3 by the Party of Democratic Action, well, I do not recognise it as a

4 document that I made. In other words, this is a forgery.

5 Q. Thank you. Let us go on to the second sheet of paper, attachment

6 2, copy 2. Have you found it? This is the document that you have already

7 seen, and you have said that there was no such thing as the municipal

8 Crisis Staff; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So my question is: Are the people listed in this document members

11 of the town board of the SDA?

12 A. My answer is no.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. Before that, you asked me if they were Muslims. I said that they

15 were, and I said that the municipal Crisis Staff did not exist.

16 Q. Could we now go on to attachment 3.

17 A. Yes, I have turned to this page.

18 Q. This is a document that you have also seen?

19 A. Can you please tell me what copy is that?

20 Q. This document is entitled "The municipal military staff." There

21 is no indication as to which copy it is, the copy number.

22 A. I think it is important to get that into the record, that the copy

23 number is not indicated.

24 Q. Yes, yes. All right. You also said that there was no municipal

25 military staff and you also said that there was no military staff of the

Page 8671

1 town board of the SDA.

2 A. Yes, that's what I said.

3 Q. You also stated that all the persons listed in this document were

4 of Muslim ethnicity; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's what I said.

6 Q. Are you the author of this document?

7 A. No, I am not the author of this document.

8 Q. Thank you. Can we please now go on to attachment 4.1. Would you

9 be so kind as to read the title of this document.

10 A. "Attachment 4.1, copy number -- blank."

11 Q. Could you please read the title of this document.

12 A. "Engineer sabotage platoon."

13 Q. Could you please read what is in the brackets.

14 A. "Permanent formation," in brackets.

15 Q. Did you set up this platoon in accordance with the survey that you

16 conducted if this document was made by you?

17 A. I did make this document. I did author this document. But the

18 attachment -- I'm sorry. Let me finish. Attachment 1, attachment 2,

19 attachment 3, contained something else. There was the attachment 1, 2,

20 and 3, but the titles were completely different.

21 Q. Please, sir.

22 A. I answered that attachment 4.1, no copy number, engineer sabotage

23 platoon, permanent formation, in brackets, I answered that I did author

24 this document.

25 Q. The persons listed as members of the Engineer and Sabotage

Page 8672

1 Platoon --

2 A. Permanent formation.

3 Q. Permanent formation, yes. Commanded by Ratif Atic, we have the

4 sabotage section, were they assigned to this unit in accordance with the

5 military specialty that they indicated in the survey?

6 A. The members of this squad listed here, or section listed here, are

7 the people who had participated in the survey and who had agreed

8 voluntarily to join the newly formed Territorial Defence. As for the

9 second part of your question, I can say that because some of the military

10 specialties were not present or represented, it does not mean that every

11 person listed here had the appropriate military specialty for this kind of

12 a unit.

13 Q. I would merely like to ask you to keep your questions -- keep your

14 answers short, to save time. Can you please tell me whether all the

15 persons listed here are Muslims?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can we now go on to the attachment 4.2.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you please read the title of this document.

20 A. "Attachment 4.2, copy number -- blank." It is titled "Second

21 anti-sabotage section."

22 Q. Can you please look at it and -- in fact, you have already said

23 that you were the author of this document.

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Can you tell us whether all the people were assigned to this

Page 8673

1 section in accordance with their military specialty and whether all the

2 members are Muslim.

3 A. In order to save time, my answer will be brief. The same answer

4 as for the previous section, not to waste any time. So the military

5 specialties do not correspond in every case, because there wasn't enough

6 military specialties of a certain kind. All the persons listed here are

7 of Muslim ethnicity.

8 Q. Thank you. Could you now please turn to --

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

11 MR. WEINER: Before we turn to the next document, I just want to

12 note for the record, in yesterday's -- in I think the testimony two days

13 ago there's handwriting on the ter document, on the B/C/S document, that

14 says "arrested." And I think we should just clarify again with the

15 witness. He indicated he didn't write "arrested." That was written at

16 some other time.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes, Counsel.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you did not write the word "arrested" or these

20 other words that are illegible here, but that is not your handwriting, in

21 any case?

22 A. Yes. In my testimony I said that I could not have put the word

23 "arrested" here, and I think that it says "in prison" here. I couldn't

24 have written that.

25 Q. Could we now go on to our next page. It's attachment 4.3.

Page 8674

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you please read the title of this document.

3 A. "Attachment 4.2, copy number -- blank." "Third engineering

4 section," with its commander and nine members.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, before the witness continues, I think we

6 have noted that it's also attachment 4.2.

7 MR. WEINER: Yes. I was just going to note that it looks like

8 there's just a mistake from the translation section. The B/C/S version

9 says "4.3," and our version here says -- the English version says "4.2."

10 JUDGE MUMBA: So we should read it as attachment 4.3.

11 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Fitozovic. You can go ahead with your

13 answer.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. The section commander is who?

16 A. Dervis Halilovic, Dedo. There's no reason to read it through,

17 because we didn't do that in the previous pages.

18 Q. I didn't mean for you to read. Are you the author of this

19 document?

20 A. Yes, I am the author of this document. At the time when this

21 document was made, all the persons listed here did not know that they in

22 fact belonged to this section.

23 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you have already stated that. That's why I didn't

24 ask you that.

25 A. Well, but some things that you asked me before, you asked me

Page 8675

1 again, and that is why I wanted to also answer in this manner.

2 Q. Are all these people Muslims?

3 A. Well, judging from their names, they are.

4 Q. Can you at least tell me whether Dervis Halilovic at least had

5 engineering as his military specialty?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Thank you. Could we now go to the next page. That's attachment

8 4.4?

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Mr. Fitozovic, you say that that

10 gentleman that you just mentioned, Mr. Halilovic, you didn't know that he

11 had engineering as his military specialty. But if I recall, as per your

12 citizens' survey of people on the street who came up to you and

13 registered, they indicated what their background and specialties were. So

14 if, as you say, you're the author of this document, and you put this

15 gentleman as the commander, without knowing that he has any specialty in

16 engineering, well, I would just like to hear your comment on this concern

17 of mine with respect to your previous statements and what you just said

18 now. Thank you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these documents are

20 made by a team that consists of at least 30 or 40 people in normal

21 circumstances, and all those people should have officer knowledge. At the

22 beginning of my testimony, I said that I created these lists alone. When

23 I made this list, I could not have been at the same time the person who

24 conducted the survey, who was placing people into different groups

25 according to their specialty, and I could not coordinate all these

Page 8676

1 activities by myself. And although I would like to, I really cannot

2 remember for every person what military specialty they had, especially

3 considering that this happened ten years ago. As I said, this kind of

4 task is usually done by 30 to 40 people, and they organise a unit, so it

5 takes 30 or 40 people to organise such a unit. When this was being

6 created, I myself volunteered to create this unit, and I have said already

7 to the Chamber that I was the author of these documents, and some of this

8 was mentioned in my answers to the Prosecutor's questions.

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Could you please turn to the next page, attachment 4.4, and could

12 you please read the title of this document.

13 A. "Attachment 4.4, copy number blank." "Engineering and sabotage

14 Platoon."

15 Q. Could you please also read what is stated under number 1.

16 A. "Special purposes section."

17 Q. Could you also read the commander's name.

18 A. Ratif Atic.

19 Q. So now, at the bottom of the page, could you read what is written

20 under number 2.

21 A. Yes. Under number 2 it says -- actually, it's not number 2 as an

22 ordinal number. It says "second intervention section." Intervention

23 sections are numbers 1 and 2 of the permanent establishment.

24 Q. Thank you. Is Ratif Atic the commander, a member of the

25 Engineering Corps?

Page 8677

1 A. I already explained to the Chamber this same matter.

2 Q. Well, could you please repeat it. I don't remember.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Are you the author of this document?

5 A. Yes, I am.

6 Q. Are all the people on this document Muslims?

7 A. Yes, all the people on this list are of Muslim ethnic background.

8 But I'd like to explain the following: You can see the name of Ratif Atic

9 here twice. You can see it also under number 2.

10 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, we have noticed this.

11 A. Well, I'm not sure whether the Trial Chamber noticed it.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel does not have his microphone turned on.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Could you please turn to the next page. This is attachment 5.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, before you do that, I'd like to

16 know from Mr. Fitozovic, just very briefly: What was the mandate of the

17 anti-sabotage section as opposed to the sabotage section? What was the

18 difference between these two groups, the sabotage platoon permanent

19 formation and the anti-sabotage section? Just very briefly. I'd just

20 like to have some understanding.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sabotage section, in its war

22 activities, would have as a goal to carry out sabotage activities and

23 operations in the enemy rear, and the anti-sabotage section has as its

24 goal to prevent such operations of the enemy.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

Page 8678

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Could you please turn now to the next page, attachment 5. Could

3 you please read the title of this unit.

4 A. "Special Purposes Platoon."

5 Q. And in brackets?

6 A. "Police."

7 Q. And the commander is Namik Suljic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are you the author of this document?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you carry out the corrections of this document at the very

12 end, under number 4?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is this your handwriting?

15 A. Original.

16 Q. Are all the people on this list Muslims?

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. In the B/C/S version,

18 at least the copy I have in front of me, I don't have any handwriting, I

19 don't think. Oh, I see. Sorry. I apologise. Number 4 at the bottom of

20 the page, crossing out. Yes. I apologise.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Did you take a look?

23 A. Yes, I took a look. There's also an Albanian, an ethnic Albanian

24 here, but he is probably of Islamic faith.

25 Q. So one person is Albanian, but he's probably of Islamic faith?

Page 8679

1 A. Yes, probably.

2 Q. Thank you. Let's now turn to the next page.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This is attachment 6.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You've already seen this attachment?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you said that this was the communications section?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that you are the author of this document; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Let me also ask you the following: Are all the members of this

13 communications section Muslims?

14 A. Yes, all of them here are of Muslim ethnicity, but in this

15 document here, that is to say, attachment 6, I have to say that the

16 members of this section, because of the aggression, had no time to find

17 out that they were members of this communications section.

18 Q. Thank you. Let's turn to the next page now, attachment 7.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you please read its title.

21 A. Yes, I will. It's called reconnaissance section.

22 Q. And the commander is Aziz Hecimovic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he have some kind of a military specialty?

25 A. He probably did. Yes, he did.

Page 8680

1 Q. Are all the men on this list Muslims?

2 A. Just a second. Yes. There's one ethnic Albanian here, under

3 number 4, and under number 8 it says "in Germany." I assume that this

4 person did not go to Germany on a reconnaissance mission.

5 Q. Could you please read what attachment this is?

6 A. It's attachment 7, copy 2.

7 Q. Thank you. Are you the author of this document?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you please turn to the next page, attachment 8. You have

10 seen it before. Copy number?

11 A. It's blank.

12 Q. Is this the hunters' section?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Commander Hasan Jasarevic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You said that you authored this document?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please tell me if all the members of this section are

19 Muslims?

20 A. All members of this section are of Muslim ethnicity, and all the

21 members of this section were registered with the competent municipal

22 authority as hunters; that is to say, they had documentation stating that

23 they were hunters and they had hunting weapons.

24 Q. Thank you. Could you please turn to the next page.

25 A. Yes, I will.

Page 8681

1 Q. Could you please read what it says on the very beginning.

2 A. "Attachment 9.1, copy 2."

3 Q. Thank you. What is the name of this document?

4 A. "Logistics base."

5 Q. Are you the author of this document?

6 A. Yes, I'm the author of this document.

7 Q. Could you please confirm that all the people on this list are of

8 Muslim ethnicity?

9 A. Yes, they all are of Muslim ethnicity. There is also one or two

10 Albanians here, actually.

11 Q. Could you please turn to the next page. Could you please read

12 what is written in the upper right-hand corner.

13 A. "Attachment 9.2, copy 2." "Supplies section."

14 Q. We have already talked about it. You said this was your document.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you its author?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please tell me whether all the persons listed in this

19 document are of Muslim ethnicity?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Could you please turn to the next page. Could you

22 please read what attachment number this is?

23 A. Attachment 9, copy 2.

24 Q. I'm not sure you read the attachment number right. The attachment

25 number is --?

Page 8682

1 A. Attachment 9.3, copy 2.

2 Q. Please. Please go on.

3 A. Third technical maintenance section.

4 Q. Are you the author of this document?

5 A. Yes, of course.

6 Q. Under number 4, is there a name that was crossed out? Is there

7 another name added right next to it? And if it is, is this your

8 handwriting?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. Are all the persons on this document of Muslim ethnicity?

11 A. Yes, all the persons in this document, on this list, are of Muslim

12 ethnicity.

13 Q. Okay. Could you please turn to the next page.

14 A. Yes, of course.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please make pauses

16 between questions and answer.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Could you please read what is written in the upper right-hand side

19 corner.

20 A. Attachment 9.4. We have already talked about this.

21 Q. Medical section?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you please pause between question and answer.

23 The interpreters are overworked.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I will try my best.

25 Q. You have already seen this document; is that correct?

Page 8683

1 A. Yes, I have already seen it.

2 Q. You said that you were the author of this document?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please confirm that all the persons listed on this

5 document of are Muslim ethnicity?

6 A. Yes, I can confirm that they're all Muslims. I can also say that

7 this medical section is comprised of those that had medical training.

8 Q. The commander of this section, Emir Pasovic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is his occupation?

11 A. He completed the school of reserve officers. He completed the

12 medical section of that school. His rank was lieutenant and his

13 occupation was dentist.

14 Q. There is a remark that I am hearing. You did not read that this

15 was attachment -- what attachment this was.

16 A. Attachment 9.4, copy 2.

17 Q. Thank you. I would now like you to take a look at the last

18 attachment that was part of this document. This is a diagram that is

19 called "Organisational and formational structure of the units for the

20 defence of the town."

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, excuse me. I don't believe we

22 have that here on the Bench. We just have the document you've gone

23 through. We don't seem to have the other one that you're referring to

24 now.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have it.

Page 8684

1 JUDGE MUMBA: There are no copies for the Bench.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I really don't know. I know that

3 we did submit this for translation. I have it in my documents. It is a

4 chart.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, if the --

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] So if you allow us, Your Honours,

7 perhaps we could put it on the ELMO and then the witness could state --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. As long as the witness has copies, the

9 Registry has, and the Prosecution have, we can go ahead.

10 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

11 MR. WEINER: I just want to see if that's -- if we have copies.

12 We do.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The registrar does not have a copy of this

15 document. Thank you.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] It's not a problem. We will

17 withdraw this document.

18 MR. WEINER: [Previous translation continues]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: We can have it on the ELMO perhaps. Then counsel

20 can see whether that's the document he wants to discuss.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, I would like to ask you to take a look at this

23 document which is now in front of you. It is a chart entitled "The

24 organisational and establishment structure of the unit for the defence of

25 the town," is that correct?

Page 8685

1 A. Your Honours, I really did not expect that I would be given

2 documents just like that, without any preparation, without having had the

3 opportunity to at least hold them in my hand.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought this was one of the documents after --

5 when we had this break. I thought this was one of the documents the

6 witness was given to look at, Mr. Pisarevic. That's why I --

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I had it as part of my document

8 and I thought that the other copies of the document also contained this

9 document. I am also quite amazed. I don't know why this document was not

10 attached to the other documents that were submitted to you, Your Honours,

11 and to the Prosecution, and I also believe that in the course of the

12 break, the witness has had the opportunity to look at it. But at any

13 rate, this is not a problem. I can withdraw this document so that the

14 witness does not have to say anything about it.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, then.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] And we will solve this in some

17 other way.

18 MR. WEINER: I'd have no problem with another attorney putting

19 that document in if we have a break at about 5.00, letting the witness see

20 it at a short break, if they feel it's important to their case.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's up to the Defence.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. This is the

23 second document that is entitled "The organisation and method of

24 receiving, transmitting, and conveying orders for the mobilisation." This

25 document was disclosed to the Prosecution a long time ago. We do have the

Page 8686

1 translation of this document, and I believe that the witness has also been

2 shown this document in the course of the break. And I would now like

3 copies to be distributed to the Trial Chamber and to the Prosecution.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel. You can go ahead.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the registrar to

6 assign an ID number for this document.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have a number for it, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It is D26/4 ter ID for the

9 B/C/S and D26/4 ID for the English version.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, during the break you had had the opportunity to

14 look at this document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I would now like to discuss this document. This document does not

17 bear any markings, and it has three pages. Could you please read what it

18 says in the left-hand corner.

19 A. "SDA, Party of Democratic Action, Bosanski Samac."

20 Q. Could you please read the title of this document?

21 A. Strictly confidential, attachment number blank, copy number

22 blank. Organisation and method of receiving, transmitting, and conveying

23 orders for mobilisation."

24 Q. All right. Have you ever seen page 1 of this document before?

25 A. I have never seen page 1 of this document before.

Page 8687

1 Q. So you did not author page 1 of this document; is that correct?

2 A. I did not author page 1 the way it looks now. I did author page

3 1, which is headed by the municipal staff of the Territorial Defence of

4 Bosanski Samac, and the title is more or less the same.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Could you now please turn to page 2.

6 A. I'll do it.

7 Q. There is a chart here. Could you please read its title.

8 A. "Organisation and method of receiving, transmitting, and conveying

9 orders for mobilisation."

10 Q. Thank you. Could you please read what is written in the first box

11 here.

12 A. Yes, of course. "Mobilisation -- responsible for mobilisation,

13 president of SDA, unit commander."

14 Q. Are you by any chance the author of this document?

15 A. Yes, I am the author of this document, but not in this form.

16 "Responsible for mobilisation" should read "the TO commander in Bosanski

17 Samac." This has been put in later.

18 Q. Could you please turn to page 3.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you please read the title.

21 A. "Organisation and method of receiving, transmitting, and conveying

22 orders for mobilisation."

23 Q. Thank you. Could you just read what is written in the first box.

24 A. Yes. "Sulejman Tihic, Alija Fitozovic."

25 Q. Could you please tell me whether you were the author of this

Page 8688

1 document?

2 A. I am the author of a similar document, where --

3 Q. My question, sir, was whether you were the author of this

4 document.

5 A. I am not the author of this document. This document is a

6 forgery. But the letters printed here are in my handwriting, but this

7 word "Sulejman Tihic," that has been inserted. So this is a forgery.

8 Everything here is correct. Alija Fitozovic, Ratif Atic, call-up service,

9 all that is correct, but only the words "Tihic Sulejman" has been

10 inserted. Mr. Pisarevic, let me tell you: Sulejman Tihic did not do his

11 national service. He did not have his military specialty.

12 Q. Sir, we are familiar with all that. Could you please just answer

13 my question.

14 A. I just don't know whether the Trial Chamber is aware of this fact.

15 Q. Could you please tell me: The words that were written,

16 handwritten here, Alamanvic, Fadil; Taletovic, Ibro; Atic, Dzevad;

17 Vukovic, Ahmed?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you write this in your own handwriting?

20 A. Yes, I did. However, somebody else using the same typewriter that

21 was taken from the offices of the SDA inserted the name of Sulejman Tihic,

22 and the premises of the SDA had been looted.

23 Q. Please, this document, was the mobilisation point the park?

24 A. I think so. My answer is yes.

25 Q. Thank you. All the persons listed here are of Muslim ethnicity;

Page 8689

1 is that correct?

2 A. Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. I can answer one of the questions that you

3 asked me yesterday, that I still owe you the answer.

4 Q. Well, I'm not particularly interested. I don't know what question

5 you're referring to, but we're quite happy with the answers you've

6 provided so far.

7 A. Well, thank you for saying that, because that indeed makes me

8 happy, and I'm quite happy with it.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've finished with

10 the documents.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Fitozovic, is that the list of names that you

12 couldn't recall yesterday that Mr. Pisarevic was asking you about?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. When he asked me whether any

14 weapons, defensive hand grenades and shells had come in from Prud. I

15 remembered the answer to that question.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you. I don't need to know the names

17 myself. If Mr. Pisarevic does not want to recall them from you, that's

18 fine. I was just interested to know whether that was the question that

19 had been posed. Thank you.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that and the part pertaining

21 to the names.

22 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, do you recall the names of the persons that you

23 claim were unloading weapons in Novo Naselje, or Sokolusa, or Mosa Pijade?

24 A. I did not remember the names of the persons that unloaded the

25 weapons in Mosa Pijade, but I remember the name of the driver, and the

Page 8690

1 name of the person that unloaded the weapons in the Stadion neighbourhood,

2 when we talked about Stevo Bozic, nicknamed Para.

3 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you said yesterday that you would remember the

4 names of the persons who unloaded the weapons. You saw these people, yet

5 as to what happened in Stadion, you heard about that, you didn't see it?

6 A. Yes, that's correct, but now I remember the name.

7 Q. You can tell the names to the Trial Chamber.

8 A. The driver who assisted in the unloading was Izet Atic, nicknamed

9 Zec.

10 Q. He's an ethnic Muslim?

11 A. Probably, yes, but he unloaded the weapons for the purposes of the

12 4th Detachment, and he was a member of the 4th Detachment.

13 Q. Please, please, please. In your testimony, in direct, you said

14 that this happened in front of a house of a Serb. I asked you questions

15 about that.

16 A. It was Stevo Bozic, nicknamed Para. That's what I said.

17 Q. Please, sir, do you know -- no. I will not ask any further

18 questions about that?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we've had more than 10 minutes. I

20 included the break and the fact that the witness needed to look at the

21 documents. I thought that you have concluded your cross-examination.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have only three

23 more minutes. That's how much I require to finish all this.

24 Q. You met with your wife on the 25th of August, 1992; is that

25 correct?

Page 8691

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did she tell you who searched her apartment on that occasion?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did she say that the Bosanski Samac police did that?

5 A. The police and the formations that had come to Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina.

7 Q. Can we agree that they were the members of some paramilitary

8 formations?

9 A. Members of the paramilitary formations and all my documents ended

10 up with the defendant Simo Zaric.

11 Q. Sir, please. The only thing I'm asking you is who searched the

12 house. Could you please just answer the question.

13 A. My wife told me that the apartment was looted by the members of

14 the military that had come in from Serbia, together with the members of

15 the 4th Detachment and the police. After all, my wife gave a statement

16 and had to report to the police, to Mr. Simo Zaric.

17 Q. Who ordered your wife to report twice a day to the police?

18 A. Simo Zaric did.

19 Q. Was your wife interrogated by Vlado Sarkanovic, Simo Bozic, and

20 Milos Savic?

21 A. Simo Zaric.

22 Q. However, sir, in your statement that you gave to the Prosecutor in

23 1995, on the 13th, 14th, and 16th of February, 1995, in Orasje, you never

24 once mentioned Simo Zaric as the person who searched or, as you say,

25 looted your apartment, together with the others. Can you please say

Page 8692

1 now --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

3 MR. WEINER: He's misquoting the testimony. This witness never

4 said that Simo Zaric searched his apartment. He said that the police and

5 paramilitaries searched the apartment, but Simo Zaric wound up with all

6 the documents which were taken from his briefcase or taken from the

7 apartment.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Sir, you never once said that Simo Zaric ordered your wife to

11 report to the police in -- to the police station in Bosanski Samac.

12 A. Mr. Pisarevic, am I to be considered guilty because I didn't say

13 that in 1995? Is that an error on my part? I'm saying it now. That's

14 why I'm here, to say it now.

15 Q. Yes, but sir, my client tells me that he saw your wife in the SUP

16 building on only one occasion, and that at that time she was angry with

17 you for fleeing and for leaving her and the children alone in Bosanski

18 Samac.

19 A. Mr. Pisarevic, that's really ironic, and it's an invasion of

20 privacy, and that is what your client is saying.

21 Q. Well, the accused is entitled to say -- to give his opinion about

22 your testimony.

23 A. Fortunately, I was able to flee, and that is why my wife, even

24 today --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

Page 8693

1 MR. WEINER: I hate to interrupt this argument, but is counsel

2 conceding that Simo Zaric did in fact interrogate his wife?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic can answer that question.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Simo Zaric never had any

5 conversation with Mrs. Esma Fitozovic, the wife of the witness, Alija

6 Fitozovic. That is what he claims.

7 Q. My last question: --

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. Maybe this is just a

9 question of semantics here, but you've just said: "Mr. Simo Zaric never

10 had any conversation with," and previously you've said that he had a

11 conversation with the wife re: The fleeing of the husband. So I think we

12 need more precise language. You've admitted or you've stated he did have

13 a conversation. Maybe you need to refine the language to make the point

14 clear for the record that you're putting to us, "conversation" versus

15 "interrogation" or something similar, conversation in the street

16 conversation or interrogation in an official building, office. I think we

17 this clear.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that I was

19 very precise. I'm not listening to the interpretation, and I don't know

20 what was said there. I said that at one time he saw her at the police

21 station, and then I said that Mr. Zaric never officially interrogated or

22 officially interviewed or talked with Mrs. Esma Fitozovic, the wife of

23 Alija Fitozovic. That's what I said. So he did not interrogate or talk

24 to her in any official capacity that had to do with gathering of any kind

25 of official information. I did say that he saw her and that Esma at that

Page 8694

1 time was angry, and she said why she was angry with Mr. Alija Fitozovic,

2 that it was because she left and so on and so forth.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can I say something?

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Did your wife ever say to you that Simo Zaric had any kind of an

6 interview with her or took a statement from her in the police station in

7 Samac?

8 A. Simo Zaric interrogated my wife. Her name is Esma Fitozovic. And

9 he was -- he showed her the same documents that you showed me today, and

10 he asked her whether the handwriting was mine. My wife, at that time,

11 told her [As interpreted] that we live in modern times and that she talks

12 to me on the phone when needed, and that she does not write -- that we do

13 not have a letter correspondence. That was my wife's answer to Simo Zaric

14 at the police station in Samac. There is no doubt about that, and you

15 said yourself a little bit earlier that he interrogated her once, and then

16 you said that he talked to her, and a third time, that she was angry with

17 me because I left, as if I was supposed to stay in the atmosphere of

18 well-being that the 4th Detachment imposed on the citizens of Samac.

19 Q. Please, sir. You heard all of this from your wife, Mr. Fitozovic?

20 A. Yes, and now from you.

21 Q. I only have one further question. You saw a document yesterday,

22 D21/1. This was the list of traitors; is that correct? And you said

23 about that list that you were the author of it.

24 A. Could I take another look at this document? I do not remember it

25 now.

Page 8695

1 JUDGE MUMBA: What's the number of the document?

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] The document D21/1 and D21/1 ter.

3 Q. Did you get the document?

4 A. Yes. It's right here.

5 Q. You said that you were the author of this document.

6 A. Could you please repeat your question? I didn't hear it.

7 Q. As far as I remember, you said yesterday that you were the author

8 of this document?

9 A. Yes. If I said that yesterday, I am certainly standing by it

10 today. Yes.

11 Q. Could you please read the first list --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. The first name on the list of local traitors. Who is the first

15 person?

16 A. Fadil Topcagic, nicknamed Brada.

17 Q. Could you please read what else is written here?

18 A. "Chetnik duke, or Vojvoda."

19 Q. Topcagic, Fadil is the brother of Simo Zaric's wife; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you now please read the fifth name.

23 A. Denis Topcagic.

24 Q. Could you please read what you said about him.

25 A. The butcher's aid.

Page 8696

1 Q. Could you confirm that Denis Topcagic is the son of Simo Zaric's

2 wife, Fatima?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction. He is the son of Simo

4 Zaric's wife's brother.

5 A. Yes, that is him.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Could you now please read the name under number 7.

8 A. Dedic Huso and son.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, we have some misunderstanding here

10 in the transcript. I'm sorry for interrupting. He's the son of Simo

11 Zaric's wife's brother. That's not true. The question was: Is he a son

12 of Simo Zaric's wife. Maybe for clarification it is from her first

13 marriage, so maybe this confused the interpreters.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pisarevic can correct that with the

15 witness.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Please, Mr. Fitozovic, can you confirm that Denis Topcagic is the

18 son of Fatima Zaric, from her earlier life?

19 A. Yes. Topcagic Denis is Fatima's son.

20 Q. And she is Simo Zaric's wife?

21 A. Yes, she is Simo Zaric's wife.

22 Q. So on the seventh name, can you read it out, please?

23 A. Huso Dedic and son.

24 Q. Could you please also read what you said about them?

25 A. Hand grenade launchers.

Page 8697

1 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Dedic, Huso and his son Senad are

2 closely related with Ms. Fatima?

3 A. Believe me, this is the first time I hear about it.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I don't need that document any

5 more. Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, you said that you had only one more

7 question.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let me just conclude. Let me just

9 conclude this line of questioning.

10 Q. You said more than once --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues]

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Just one. This is the last one.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You said more than once in your testimony, you mentioned Fadil

16 Topcagic more than once in your testimony, and the relatives of Simo

17 Zaric's wife, that is to say, Fatima Zaric's relatives. Can you confirm

18 the fact that your relationship, that is to say, your relationship with

19 the family of Fatima Zaric, in 1991 and 1992, was very strained? Yes or

20 no.

21 A. I am not aware of that.

22 Q. Did you have a good relationship with them?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. Excuse me. You mean 1991 or 1992?

Page 8698

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. In 1992, in April -- well, not in April of 1992, so not in 1992.

3 But --

4 Q. I asked you --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, can you let the witness complete his

6 answer?

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

8 Q. Please go on.

9 A. You asked me about 1991 and 1992.

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Well, then I would have to say two things: Until the first half

12 of 1991, our relationship was good. Then in September of 1991, I was with

13 Mr. Simo Zaric --

14 Q. Let's not talk about Simo Zaric.

15 A. Yes. Until 1991, the relationship was good.

16 Q. And then after 1991?

17 A. In the second half of 1991, until 1992, the relationship was not

18 so good, but there was no hatred either.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am done with the

21 cross-examination.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask if

24 we're going to have a break in this hour and a half that I intend to

25 cross-examine the witness.

Page 8699

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Because of our earlier break, the next break is at

2 1650.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Fitozovic. My name is Novak

6 Lukic. I'm attorney at law and I represent Mr. Miroslav Tadic. I'm going

7 to start my cross-examination. And with regard to the time that I said I

8 would allocate to this cross-examination, I would like to ask you to be

9 very quick so that we can end this part as soon as possible.

10 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.

11 Q. The first couple of questions will have to do with the topic that

12 you -- that was already mentioned yesterday. I actually only have one

13 question about this. When you answered Mr. Pisarevic, and also the

14 Prosecutor, when you talked to them about the truck that broke down in

15 Samac, and when you talked about this deal that two crates of the weapons

16 should be given to you as payment for the transfer of weapons into another

17 truck - you remember, this right? - my question is very simple: Did the

18 driver of this truck tell you where the transfer was headed? Who was it

19 for?

20 A. Yes. He said he was going in the direction of Central Bosnia or

21 Sarajevo. That's what he said.

22 Q. Did he say for what individual institution or organisation the

23 weapons were for?

24 A. No, he did not say that.

25 Q. Thank you. Yesterday and the day before you also said that up

Page 8700

1 until September of 1991 you were a member of the HDZ; is that correct?

2 A. No, that's not what I said.

3 Q. Could you please tell us now up until what time you were an active

4 member of the HDZ?

5 A. I was an active member of the HDZ while I was active in the

6 organisation. I don't know. Maybe two or three months.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, I remember we did go through this quite a

8 lot with Mr. Pisarevic. I think if you check the transcript, you'll find

9 the answers there. And this is what I was trying to say yesterday, that I

10 don't want repetition.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. My questions will not be

12 repetitions.

13 Q. Do you know anything about a meeting that took place in Odzak in

14 August of 1991? This meeting was a meeting of the leaders of the HDZ

15 party and they were talking about establishing the region of Bosanski

16 Posavina?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I have no further questions on this topic.

19 On the 27th of May, while testifying to the Prosecutor, you said

20 the following, and I'm going to read this out because it's been a couple

21 of days since then. When you answered the question about the atmosphere

22 in the town, you said the following.

23 [In English] "There were people from abroad who were not from the

24 municipality of Bosanski Samac. Some people in uniforms were passing

25 through."

Page 8701

1 [Interpretation] Do you remember stating this?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I would now like to talk just about the period up to the 17th of

4 April. You said --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

6 MR. WEINER: I have no objection to counsel referring to the

7 transcript. Could he just cite the page so we can follow along,

8 especially if there's going to be a lot of discussion about, you know,

9 previous testimony.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. If you can indicate the pages.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I read this on page 60, line 8 and 9

12 of the unofficial transcript.

13 Q. You said that people wearing uniforms were seen in the town. Did

14 you personally see people in uniforms in the town?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What kinds of uniforms were these, these uniforms that you

17 personally saw?

18 A. They were SMB uniforms.

19 Q. Let's clarify. These were JNA uniforms?

20 A. Yes, of the so-called JNA.

21 Q. Did you personally see members of the ZNG, that is to say, the

22 Croatian National Guard Corps, in Samac?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you personally go to a discotheque at Cuse's [phoen]? Do you

25 know this establishment?

Page 8702

1 A. Yes, I do know it.

2 Q. Did you go to this discotheque, this cafe?

3 A. I went there, but not very frequently.

4 Q. Did your informers, that is to say, patrol members, or did

5 somebody else tell you that these members of the Croatian National Guard

6 Corps frequently patronised this discotheque in uniform in the winter?

7 A. No, they didn't tell me anything about this. I have no idea about

8 it.

9 Q. Do you know that the Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP, on the 2nd of

10 December, 1991, dispatched a group of its specials, 30 members of its

11 special units, to patrol and to join the police station in Samac?

12 A. No, but they were not sent there for this purpose. So can I say

13 no. My answer to your question will be no, because they were not sent

14 there to patrol.

15 Q. You can say quite clearly and freely as to your knowledge about

16 the purpose why they were sent there.

17 A. I will do so when you ask me.

18 Q. All right. According to your knowledge, why did the specials from

19 Sarajevo come to Bosanski Samac, I mean the members of the

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP, so to speak?

21 A. They came to Bosanski Samac because in December, in fact, in

22 November or December, a sabotage had been carried out on the bridge across

23 the Sava River, connecting the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

24 Republic of Croatia. That was their main task.

25 Q. Do you know whether their arrival has anything to do with the

Page 8703

1 demobilisation of the police force in the Bosanski Samac police station?

2 A. Nobody was demobilised at that time.

3 Q. I will move on to another topic.

4 Mr. Fitozovic, did you ever set foot in the Cafe AS?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you give us a rough idea, or perhaps even a precise idea, as

7 to when it was that you went into that cafe for the last time before the

8 17th of April, 1992?

9 A. It may have been in November 1991.

10 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that the picture of President Tito was

11 there in the cafe when you were there last?

12 A. Believe me, I don't remember.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber feels that maybe we'll give a

14 break, because the witness appears exhausted. We'll go earlier than I

15 thought we should. We can have another break for 20 minutes, I think, and

16 resume our proceedings at 1700 hours. We shall have another 20-minute

17 break.

18 --- Recess taken at 4.43 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 5.07 p.m.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber has been informed that the

21 witness is extremely upset and unable to continue today. So I wanted to

22 find out from the Prosecution what their plans are. Is he going it come

23 on Monday or another day?

24 MR. WEINER: Well, Your Honour, the way things were going, it

25 looked like Attorney Lukac had at least another hour to hour and a half of

Page 8704

1 cross-examination, so it would have gone into Monday any way. Then

2 attorney Pantelic was going to cross-examine and then myself on re-direct.

3 Either way we're going on Monday so I don't think it makes much of a

4 difference. We'll just continue on with him and finish -- do as we were

5 going to do, finish him off on Monday.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: So we continue with him on Monday.

7 MR. WEINER: Absolutely.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: And after him then we have Todorovic.

9 MR. WEINER: No. We have a witness who is in transit right now,

10 will be here probably late today, and we would do that probably Monday,

11 Tuesday, and then followed by probably Mr. Todorovic.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: May I address you on that issue?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because the Trial Chamber is mindful of the

14 fact that Mr. Todorovic has a limited period.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I appreciate that, if Your Honours please.

16 He's coming this weekend.


18 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm told, I'm informed by those who are making

19 arrangements for him to be brought here. I tried to make arrangements to

20 get access to him this weekend for the purpose of proofing him. I've

21 mentioned to you in the past that I do need to proof him, finish proofing

22 him. Proofing him has taken a long time. I've gone to a country where

23 he's currently imprisoned to proof him, and that process is still

24 incomplete. When I was speaking to Registry officials making

25 arrangements, speaking to them about arrangements for him to be brought

Page 8705

1 here, I was informed by in fact Mr. Christian Rohde that the difficulty

2 that the faced was not the period of time that he spent here but rather

3 them having sufficient notice for them to make arrangements for him to be

4 brought here, and so I made the -- put in the appropriate motion and so

5 on. And of course he's coming here and that probably is now gone.

6 However, I was given to understand by Mr. Rohde that keeping him here is

7 not a matter that's of great concern or going to cause any sort of

8 fundamental problem.

9 Secondly, I note from the order or decision, the confidential

10 decision of the Chamber regarding his testimony that the Chamber takes the

11 view that the period of three weeks is somewhat excessive for his

12 testimony.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: For giving evidence.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.


16 MR. DI FAZIO: And I don't have any problem with that, because I

17 don't think he'll be anywhere near that long. He will certainly be a

18 substantial witness, but I don't think he will be -- my estimate as I

19 stand here is that he would not be anywhere near a period of three weeks.

20 Because of that, I hope and plan to continue proofing him on Monday and

21 Tuesday and Wednesday, when I can get access to him at the prison, and

22 therefore that I would hope to call him later in the week. That wouldn't

23 cause any let-up in business or proceedings for the Chamber because we

24 have witnesses available, including one who is flying in from Bosnia. Even

25 if he were to start later this week, I hope on Thursday, I'm confident

Page 8706

1 that we would finish his testimony in that period of time that you've

2 allocated already, and his actual testimony wouldn't come close to three

3 weeks. So because of that, I hope that the Chamber will be able to give

4 us some leeway and allow us to continue on Monday with this witness, call

5 the next witness, and then get him on after that.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is wondering whether, from what

8 you have said, your intention is to start Todorovic on Thursday next

9 week.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: To aim for him to start his testimony on Thursday,

11 as a --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: If not earlier than that.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If not earlier. If not earlier, possibly late

14 Wednesday. And in the meantime, to finish this witness and another

15 witness. Would Your Honours just bear with me?

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Jelena Kapetanovic, who is coming in from Bosnia.

18 I might add that looking at your order, there seem to be two things that

19 were troubling the Chamber. One was the excessive period of time that was

20 being sought for his testimony. I hope I can set your minds at rest on

21 that. My estimate is that he won't be anywhere near three weeks. I just

22 can't see that. I can't speak for the Defence, of course, but as far as

23 the Prosecution is concerned -- obviously he's going to give evidence for

24 a number of days and I haven't finished proofing him, so I can't give you

25 a final or really accurate estimate, but I would think in the order of

Page 8707

1 three to four days.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll leave it to the Prosecution, then.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: And another matter, if I may add also to assist you

4 and perhaps set the Chamber's mind at greater ease, is this: Another

5 reason you were concerned about was that there would be a lack of contact

6 between any other people at the Detention Centre. That is now limited, I

7 think you know, as I sought --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That was varied.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: But the Trial Chamber is not allowing -- does not

11 wish to allow the time taken for proofing as having been allowed by the

12 Trial Chamber. That's the point I want to make. Because as far as the

13 order is concerned, he's supposed to start his testimony on Monday, at

14 9.00.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I appreciate that.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Fair enough, we have had this problem with this

17 witness who cannot continue, and we have to finish him, but the Trial

18 Chamber expected that as soon as we finished with the current witness,

19 then we would go on to him. But the Trial Chamber will leave that to the

20 Prosecution, as long as there is no excessive stay of the witness who is

21 in fact supposed to be serving his sentence.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: The way I plan things, I don't expect that his

23 evidence will be taking three weeks.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. The Trial Chamber will trust the

25 Prosecution with that.

Page 8708

1 Any matter with the Defence?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand my colleague Mr. Weiner has a matter

3 that he wishes to raise.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Weiner first.

5 MR. WEINER: One last matter. We received another document at the

6 break, at this past break, the one that they started to show the witness

7 and he said he had never -- you know, didn't have a chance to look at it.

8 May I have permission to see the witness - probably not today, probably

9 just before Monday morning - and go through it with him?


11 MR. WEINER: So if I could do it in re-direct, I know what the

12 document is about.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. All right. You can do so.

14 Any matters from the Defence?

15 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I would be very grateful if we could

16 know -- my understanding is next week we are working from 9.00 in the

17 morning.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall start sitting in the morning from

19 9.00. The session starts at 9.00 sharp, so everybody has to be here

20 before 9.00.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Until --?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Until 1345.

23 MR. PANTELIC: 1345. Okay.

24 Another matter: I think that -- well, we have to see from our

25 learned friends from the Prosecution, because you can understand the

Page 8709

1 position of the Defence. We are a little bit confused about the witness

2 schedule, who is going to come, how we can arrange. So I hope next

3 week -- because otherwise, you know, we have three perilous issues now.

4 For example, Variant A is Mrs. Jelena Kapetanovic, Variant B is Stevan

5 Todorovic, Variant C is Mrs. Ewa Tabeau. So we are a little bit -- I

6 mean, we have to be ready immediately, according to my information, for

7 all of these witnesses. But we appreciate your assistance.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I think the Prosecution have made it clear that

9 after we finish the current witness, it's Kapetanovic and then Todorovic.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Okay. Yes. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: That's for next week, so you can prepare for this

12 one and those two.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. And another matter which I want to raise to

14 this Honourable Chamber is of vital importance, I would say, for the

15 Defence.


17 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, you might be aware that there is

18 certain, I would say, initiative from the Defence counsel here working

19 within the Tribunal to clarify their position and to see possible

20 improvement of the conditions of the work of the Defence counsel. But for

21 our particular team, I kindly ask - of course, if it's possible; of

22 course, according to the security rules and the other measures - that we,

23 during these short breaks that we have in Courtroom 3, have limited

24 access, escorted access, whenever it's possible, to the terrace. Your

25 Honours, we don't have fresh air. It's really absolutely complicated for

Page 8710

1 the short break to pass all these doors, to come to our Defence room, and

2 then to be back, while, at the same time, all others have the access. And

3 now there is a party going right now. I don't want to party. I just want

4 a little bit of fresh break, you know, fresh air, Your Honours. It's

5 serious. Months and months are here. I mean, if you can help us, please;

6 in not, thank you in advance.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I would have thought that you would have made

8 that application with the Registrar's Office. Because then the Registrar

9 would make arrangements, if possible, to allow the Defence counsel to go

10 outside to the terrace during the breaks, during proceedings. I think you

11 should approach the Office of the Registrar for that, because they're the

12 ones who decide the passages for every party coming to the proceedings.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, obviously that would be --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Including the Prosecution. There are certain

15 sections of the building, including the Judges, there are certain sections

16 of this building where we don't have access. So I think it's better to

17 approach the Registrar.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Everyone has access to the terrace, Your Honours.

19 But my idea is if you could just give a few words to the representative of

20 the Registry in support of our situation, just that. I mean, if not, I

21 mean, I appreciate your attention.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, Mr. Pantelic. That's understood.

23 We shall adjourn now until Monday. The proceedings will start at

24 9.00 sharp.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.20 p.m.,

Page 8711

1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of June,

2 2002, at 9.00 a.m.