Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8712

1 Monday, 3 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Miroslav Tadic, Simo Zaric, and Blagoje

9 Simic.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination is continuing with

11 Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

13 morning to all the present in the courtroom.

14 WITNESS: ALIJA FITOZOVIC [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Fitozovic.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. We're going to continue where we left off on Friday. My last

20 question had to do with, if you remember, the Cafe AS, and we stopped when

21 I asked you when the last time was that you entered Cafe AS. You said

22 this was in November 1991. Do you remember?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I'm going to ask you the following question now: Do you maybe

25 remember that in March or April 1992, you entered Cafe AS and that you

Page 8713

1 were there together with Mr. Izet Izetbegovic and Stevo, nicknamed Kocka?

2 A. I'm not sure, no.

3 Q. If you're not sure, just please say so. Just say, "I don't

4 remember."

5 A. I do not remember.

6 Q. Did you personally see some people in uniform entering the

7 Cafe AS?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. These were SMB uniforms, as you described them on Friday?

10 A. Yes, SMB uniforms.

11 Q. You also said, on the 28th of May, that your people informed you

12 on the fact that the Grey Wolves were also patronising Cafe AS.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did these people, informers of yours, your collaborators from

15 within the 4th Detachment, personally enter the Cafe AS to observe these

16 things or would they observe or monitor from the outside who was entering

17 Cafe AS?

18 A. The people who were members of the 4th Detachment, they observed

19 the events from the inside, and those that were not, those who were

20 members of the before-mentioned units, they would do it from the outside.

21 Q. That's what you said. Did these people who were members of the

22 4th Detachment tell you that the Grey Wolves entered AS or did the people

23 from the patrols tell you this fact?

24 A. The people who were in AS, that is to say, members of the 4th

25 Detachment, and people who were in the units also said that the same were

Page 8714

1 also at the Memorial Centre Mitra Trifunovic Uco, that that's where they

2 were.

3 Q. These Grey Wolves, were they in uniform when they were in the

4 Cafe AS? What did your people tell you?

5 A. No. At that time they were wearing civilian clothes.

6 Q. Could you roughly tell me when this was in relation to April 17th?

7 How much time before the 17th were they seen?

8 A. They were seen in March of 1992, when they arrived by helicopter

9 to the local commune Batkusa, whose majority population was Serb, that is

10 to say, mostly Serbs inhabit this place, and they came there by

11 helicopter.

12 Q. I'm going to follow up on a question asked by Judge Williams on

13 the 28th of May, when she wanted to know about the identity of these

14 people from the 4th Detachment. You said that at the beginning you had

15 two informers in the 4th Detachment, that is to say, your people that were

16 members of the 4th Detachment, and that later there were about ten of

17 them.

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Considering the fact that this is hearsay, I would like you -- I

20 would have to insist that you give us the names of the people who

21 confirmed this fact. And if the Prosecutor insists, we can go into closed

22 session.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

24 MR. WEINER: The first thing is, if we are going to get into this

25 information, I think we'd have to go into closed session. I don't know if

Page 8715

1 these people are living in Bosanski Samac, and if they are, it could be a

2 problem for them. Then assuming this is admissible, I think certain

3 restrictions are going to have to be placed. We can't have Mr. Zaric

4 discussing this matter with his wife and then his wife approaching people

5 or telling people in Bosanski Samac, as we've had in previous situations,

6 about what's going on. We're going to have to set up some restrictions on

7 this information, if it is admissible. I would also request that -

8 although I'm not cross-examining - that we should at least begin by

9 looking to see who the patrol people were, if you recall, that saw this,

10 and maybe the informants would just be cumulative. But that's really up

11 to the Court. And finally, counsel is insisting on the information.

12 That's not for counsel to insist. Counsel can request. The Court can

13 order the witness to answer, not counsel, because counsel is saying he

14 insists on these answers. That's not for counsel.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it's a question of language, yes.

16 MR. WEINER: Okay.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Then we can go into closed session because you

18 mentioned that you don't know whether these people are still in Bosanski

19 Samac, where they are actually living. So to be on the safe side, let's

20 go into closed session. Yes, private session, actually.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

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23 [Open session]

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. My question was whether you are aware of the fact that cards were

Page 8720

1 played at Cafe AS.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That people from all over the former Yugoslavia would come there

4 to play cards, from Serbia, Slovenia, Croatia? Do you know of this or

5 not?

6 A. Just before the war, in April 1992, people gambled in Cafe AS, and

7 those were also members of the Grey Wolves that came to Batkusa by

8 helicopter. They also gambled there.

9 Q. In civilian clothes?

10 A. Yes, in civilian clothes.

11 Q. Did your informers, or I should say maybe collaborators, tell you

12 that your party colleagues, Omer Nalic and Izet Izetbegovic, also

13 frequently patronised the cafe and also your fellow townsperson

14 Hasan Bicic?

15 A. As far as Hasan Bicic and Omer Nalic are concerned, it's probably

16 true. They were more frequent patrons than Izet Izetbegovic. I don't

17 know if Izet Izetbegovic came there a lot. But the first two, yes, Nalic

18 and Bicic.

19 Q. My question was whether you heard about this from your informers.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you remember or do you know that on the Sit building, which is

22 across Cafe AS -- is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That from January 1992 until the beginning of the hostilities,

25 there was a flag of Bosnia-Herzegovina and a flag of Yugoslavia?

Page 8721

1 A. I do not remember.

2 Q. On the very same day you answered, when asked by the Prosecutor,

3 that the location of the Cafe AS was a good one, a good choice, because

4 this part of town was inhabited mainly by Serbs. Do you remember this?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know that right next to AS, that in this building there is

7 also a Croatian and a Muslim family residing?

8 A. Yes, I remember this building right next to Cafe AS. There's also

9 a supermarket there. Yes, the owner of this building is a Croat.

10 Q. And the first building on the right when you're facing the

11 entrance of AS, this was a building where a Croatian family lived?

12 A. Mr. Lukic, behind the Cafe AS there were 6.000 Serb houses and a

13 hundred Croat and Muslim houses, so what was exactly around AS or around

14 ten metres, it doesn't matter.

15 Q. Sir, my question was very specific. If you do not know, you do

16 not know.

17 A. I answered you. The building next to Cafe AS is owned by a man

18 who is a Croat. I even know his name: Bozo Breskackovic.

19 Q. Do you know that in this so-called Novo Naselje that you

20 mentioned, and you said that trucks were being unloaded -- the truck was

21 being unloaded there, do you know that Sulejman Tihic had his truck there?

22 A. Yes, at the very beginning of Novo Naselje.

23 Q. And his brother as well?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. And also Jusuf Jusufovic?

Page 8722

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Lukic, there were about 500 houses there, and you are now

3 listing three or four examples. In the previous question, I told you that

4 there were 6.000 people that lived behind these objects.

5 Q. Sir, Mr. Fitozovic, please, let's speed up. I heard what you

6 said, but my question is very specific. Could you just please say "yes"

7 or "no." Everything that you said entered into the record, so you do not

8 have to repeat yourself twice.

9 A. But you don't have to ask me the same question more than once.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, remember to pause.

11 Mr. Fitozovic, just answer the questions as they come. If counsel

12 asks twice or three times the same question, just answer it. If the

13 Prosecution finds that it's not -- what counsel is doing is not proper,

14 the Prosecution will intervene. If the Trial Chamber finds that the

15 questioning is not proper, the Trial Chamber will intervene. So when

16 there is no intervention, please just answer the questions as they come.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. I have one more question that has to do with the owners of these

19 houses surrounding Cafe AS. Did Asim Delic and Zaimbegovic Zaim also have

20 houses there? Yes or no?

21 A. Could you please repeat the names?

22 Q. Zaim Zaimbegovic and Asim Delic.

23 A. I do not know.

24 Q. And how about Cafe Molla? This was a place that you patronised

25 frequently?

Page 8723

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And mostly Muslims gathered here. That's what you said.

3 A. And Croats as well.

4 Q. The owner of this cafe was Ratif Atic? Rajec?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Ratif.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I apologise, but his nickname is Rajec; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This was a man who you gave a position inside your TO

11 organisational structure?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is there a single Serb house in the close proximity of that cafe?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How close?

16 A. Fifty metres.

17 Q. Would you agree that the majority of the houses are Muslim?

18 A. No.

19 Q. In front of this cafe, three members of the 4th Detachment were

20 severely wounded?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Let's move on to another topic.

23 Mr. Fitozovic, you were a reserve officer in the old JNA?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

Page 8724

1 MR. WEINER: Just for the record, could they state the names of

2 the people who were wounded so we're not thinking that there were several

3 battles that were going on in front of that cafe, so we're all talking

4 about the same people. Are we talking about the Tota Danilo incident?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I was of the same view, whether it's the same

6 people.

7 MR. WEINER: Just to keep the record clear, otherwise people can

8 argue there were also incidents that were occurring.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: I think that Mr. Lukic can clarify that.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. My question that had to do with the injuring in front of the Cafe

12 Molla had to do with the incident that you described that happened in

13 March, where Tota and some other persons belonging to the 4th Detachment

14 were wounded; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You also said, as far as I can remember, that you had military

17 training at least twice a month while you were a reserve officer.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I assume that you remember well that in every call to attend a

20 military training, it was said that if you failed to come, if you failed

21 to accept the invitation, that there would be some kind of a penalty.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that these things could cause you to be penalised.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Another consequence -- the same consequence applied to the reserve

Page 8725

1 corps of the JNA and the TO; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In this Territorial Defence that you organised in 1992, in April,

4 people volunteered to join; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you did not force anybody to join the TO?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And all these people that volunteered, they knew that they were

9 members of the TO, but they did not know what kind of duties they would

10 have?

11 A. That's correct. They had no time to find out because the

12 aggression took place in the meantime.

13 Q. In these lists that we saw on Friday, I noticed phone numbers.

14 Could you please tell me where you got the phone numbers of these people

15 from?

16 A. In the survey, on the questionnaire, there was a column called

17 "Phone, Home, and Work Phone," so the people that filled out the

18 questionnaire themselves filled out these facts.

19 Q. So these people volunteered this information?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. I am also interested in this self-organised unit of citizens that

22 you described that was organised in autumn of 1991, and according to the

23 number, it had about 212 members. Did people also volunteer to join this

24 unit?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8726

1 Q. So nobody was in any way forced or coerced to become a member of

2 this self-organised unit?

3 A. No.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would ask you now to

5 enter the private session because we will be moving to a topic where some

6 names shall be mentioned which requested protection, people who requested

7 protection. It will be very short.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we go into private session, please.

9 [Private session]

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9 [Open session]

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to discuss

11 with the witness a certain document, a document which has been disclosed

12 to the Prosecution. I would like to ask the usher to bring forward the

13 document. It is a document why ...

14 I would kindly ask for an identification number.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have a number for identification only,

16 please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be D50/3 ter and D50/3

18 for the English translation. Thank you. Just to add, ID, of course.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, have you seen this document earlier?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You've already spoken of it in your statement to the Prosecution

24 in 1995?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8736

1 Q. My first question: What is the city command of Bosanski Samac at

2 the time? What was that?

3 A. Your Honours, I don't know what my rights are, and can I be

4 assisted here before answering this question? Can the Prosecutor assist

5 me here?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: What type of assistance do you need? You've been

7 asked a question by the counsel: What is the city command of Bosanski

8 Samac at the time?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would only like to say something

10 about this very document, and I need assistance.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: What type of assistance? What's the problem with

12 giving the answer that counsel is demanding?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I did bring the original. It

14 was a -- just by chance. This is the original, and this is a forgery. On

15 the forgery, we do have a signature here; on the original, we do not have

16 it. This is the original of the communication, and it was submitted to

17 this Trial Chamber as exhibit.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. All right. So you have the original

19 document, which is containing the information, and you'd like the original

20 document to be produced.

21 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 MR. WEINER: Maybe we can facilitate this. Could we place this up

24 on a table and all counsel can come and look at it and make a quick

25 comparison? It will take about a minute.

Page 8737

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one? The document that the witness is

2 saying --

3 MR. WEINER: Yes. The two of them, if we could place them right

4 here.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The usher can give what the witness is showing

6 as an original to counsel to look at.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the original stamp.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I take it that the original you are

9 discussing, Mr. Fitozovic, is in Serbo-Croat.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: So we can have that document also given a number.

12 Yes. Can we look at it? Maybe can we have an ID number for the document?

13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be D51/3 ter ID.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, since the document is very fragile,

16 seems like it's falling apart, can it be placed in plastic for safety?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the usher can assist with that.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Can we have a clarification, Your Honours, please?

19 Is it D51/3? It's produced by the witness.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's what I'm discussing with the Judges,

21 actually.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry. I'm running ahead. Sorry.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are of the view that it should have a "P"

25 number, a Prosecution number. Can we just correct that, please? For

Page 8738

1 identification only.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be P67 ter ID.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I start with my question?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: We want to look at what the witness says is the

6 original, which is now P67 ter ID.

7 Yes. Counsel can go ahead with the questions.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The defendants have asked for the

9 original document to be put on the ELMO so that they can also take a look

10 at it.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It can be put on the ELMO.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you claim that you have the original document,

14 D50/3 [sic] ter?

15 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic. This is the original document that I swam the

16 river Sava with. It was original. It was put in a freezer bag for food.

17 Q. I'm going to ask you the following: Is it the practice of all

18 institutions that had communications with other institutions that the copy

19 remaining with the person -- the one that is not being sent, was it the

20 custom that that copy not be signed?

21 A. Sir, it's obvious that this is a forgery. I do not understand

22 this. I don't know anything about correspondence law.

23 Q. Do you know that it was a custom that those documents that would

24 stay in the archives of your party not be signed?

25 A. All the copies have to be signed.

Page 8739

1 Q. Did you receive this document from the TO, or was this a copy that

2 was at the SDA headquarters?

3 A. I don't remember, sir.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: When you are talking about -- since we have this

5 dispute about the original and the other documents, can we be specific,

6 now that we have numbers?

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. The document D51/3, did you receive this document at the TO

9 staff --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. Which one is D51? We gave it a Prosecution

11 number, meaning the original. It's P67 ter ID. All right?

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]. I apologise. That's what I meant.

13 Q. So the document P67 ter ID, is this the document that you got at

14 the TO headquarters?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So where do you have this document from, then?

17 A. This is my document. What do you mean, where I got it from? I

18 have it. It's the original.

19 Q. Did you write it?

20 A. I'm the author of the upper part of it.

21 Q. And the lower part where the stamp is and where there's no

22 signature, you didn't write that?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lukic, actually, I think I would just like to

25 see what the witness calls the original back here again, just for one

Page 8740

1 moment, because I want to look at the stamp.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: When this comes back on the ELMO, I've noticed

4 that the stamp is at a different angle on the original. On the

5 original -- hard to explain. One has to see it. But it's tilted to the

6 right, with the letters on a diagonal from upper left to lower right. On

7 the copy that we have, it's -- yes, D50/3 ter ID, it's exactly straight,

8 the stamp. So it's different on both. And this has nothing to do with

9 the crease in the paper of what the witness has produced to us. So the

10 two do seem to be different, although saying the same thing. The stamps,

11 they're at different angles.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

13 MR. WEINER: I was just going to ask counsel if for the record

14 they could tell us from where they have obtained that document, or if it

15 violates attorney client privilege, they don't have to answer that. But

16 since we're looking at what is potentially a forged document, could they

17 tell us where they got it?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean D50/3 ter?

19 MR. WEINER: Yes.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Because the one we are look at is actually a

21 photocopy.

22 MR. WEINER: Yes. The photocopy the witness claims to be -- or

23 have a forgery on it, could they tell us where they received that

24 document? Or if it's going to violate attorney-client privilege, they

25 don't have to answer that.

Page 8741

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It seems to be hard for me to get my

3 turn. I fully understood what Judge Williams said. We could not have

4 submitted the copy that was with the witness. We have the original of the

5 document that we are going to tender now as evidence. This is the

6 original that was found at the TO headquarters, and this is a document

7 that the TO staff received from the command of the town, and that is the

8 document that we are tendering. And then I would like to talk to the

9 witness --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you -- when you are talking about, that is

11 the document we are tendering, what's the number?

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is document D50/3 ter ID. This

13 is the document whose copies you have and I'm going to submit also the

14 original, and there is a signature and a stamp of the authorised person in

15 the SDA. This is not a forgery. And we are going to prove this in the

16 further proceedings.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ...

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have the Judges be

19 shown this original first.

20 Your Honours, the original of the document that I showed you,

21 D50/3 ter ID, and the document -- this is the document that has been

22 disclosed to the Prosecution as well. The document that the witness has

23 is a copy of the document, but this was not the document that was found in

24 the premises of the TO staff in Bosanski Samac, and this is what the

25 Defence will prove in its case. It is obvious that the copy that the

Page 8742

1 witness has is an unsigned copy.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Once you say the copy that the witness has,

3 give it a number, please. There will be less confusion that way.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand. The document that

5 the witness has, P67 ter ID, the witness said that he was the author of

6 the first part of that document, and this is an unofficial document.

7 That's why there is no signature. The document with the signature of the

8 authorised person in the town council of SDA is the official document that

9 was found at the TO staff, because it was communicated -- this was a

10 document that was sent to the TO staff, and that's why it was found there.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: That is the Defence case.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.

13 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, I would like to ask you the following:

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. -- oh, you are still looking at the -- yes.

15 All right.

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may I approach counsel? Because the one

17 that we have, the copy, is different from the so-called original. There's

18 a "17" listed on this original, and the "7" -- there's a "7" which is over

19 a "3." The one I have has "13." There's also a "06" with several slash

20 marks, which doesn't exist on this original.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can approach counsel.

22 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

23 [Prosecution and Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. Yes, I was just about to say, I

Page 8743

1 don't think that should be a problem that should hold us, because each

2 party will make their submissions on the documents.

3 MR. WEINER: Yes. I will just say for the future, what they did

4 is they put -- internally, they put some markings on documents, and if

5 something is an original, you should not write on the document, because it

6 raises questions.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. WEINER: They wrote a "13" on it, then they crossed out the

9 "3" and then wrote a "7" on it. But that's an original. They should

10 just use it different method of protecting originals than writing on them.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. That is noted.

12 Yes, Mr. Lukic. You can go ahead.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, the parties will talk about the authenticity of

15 this document, but we will just discuss the contents of the document right

16 now. You have already said that you are the author of the first portion

17 of this document?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Number?

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Number D50/3 ter ID. That's the

20 document that I'm talking about right now.

21 Q. I would like --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: But this is -- I thought that this is the document

23 D50/3 ID. This is the document the witness has already said is a forgery,

24 and then he produced the one in the plastic, I think P67 ter ID, which he

25 says is the original, which he -- according to him, he wrote the first

Page 8744

1 part. I thought that was the position.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is his position. But I'm

3 talking about the same document, D50/3 ter ID and P67. But I would like

4 also to have my document, the document that I'm saying is the original, be

5 put on the file. That's D50/3. That's the one that has the signature; as

6 opposed to the document P67 that does not have a signature.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So you want it on the ELMO?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted it to be stated that this

9 copy also has a number or that it be -- or that the same number be used

10 for the other document, for the record. The original of the D50/3, I'm

11 tendering right now. Whether it will get a separate number or not, I'm

12 not -- I don't know.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: It's just -- when we get photocopies for use, they

15 are given a number. So the original retains the same number, because it's

16 the same document.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Could you please put the other document also on the ELMO. Yes,

19 both.

20 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, we are now talking about this document that has the

21 number P -- D50/3 ter ID as well as P67 ter. Could we agree that the

22 difference between the two documents lies in the fact that D50/3 ter ID is

23 signed and the other one is not signed?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You said that you were the author of the first portion of the

Page 8745

1 contents of the documents, of these two documents.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In this first part --

4 MR. PANTELIC: I'm so sorry. I must intervene.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

6 MR. PANTELIC: The witness answered "yes" on the first question,

7 and in transcript it's "no." So maybe we could clarify that with the

8 witness. The question was, page 33, line 9, and his answer is in line 13.

9 In transcript, there is a "no" as his answer, but he said "yes."

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we go back with the witness, Mr. Lukic?

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. So, Mr. Fitozovic, let's just repeat my question and your answer.

13 Would you agree that the difference between these two documents lies in

14 the fact, and only in the fact, that D50/3 ter has a signature in the part

15 where it says "SDA town board, Bosanski Samac," whereas document P67 ter

16 ID does not have a signature?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter note. If the witness could please

18 come closer to the microphone. It was hard to hear him.

19 A. Yes, we can agree, but we have to say that the stamp of SDA on the

20 17th of April, 1992 was at the police or in some other institution. So

21 starting from the 16th of April, this stamp was no longer in the

22 possession of the Party of Democratic Action. So after that, many

23 documents all of a sudden had this stamp of SDA.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. But the paper that you had with you, that went with you?

Page 8746

1 A. The document that I had with me, that's the original, Mr. Lukic,

2 because you can see that there is no signature here by the command of

3 town.

4 Q. Experts will be making comparisons about what the differences are.

5 A. I'm telling you that the original does not have the signature.

6 The original without the signature, that's exactly the problem: Who was

7 supposed to sign on behalf of the command of the town and who was supposed

8 to sign on behalf of the town board. That's why there was no signature.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I continue with my questioning?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I was just worried about the overlapping,

11 because you didn't allow the witness to complete his answer.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Could you please tell me what this institution was, the town

14 command of Bosanski Samac?

15 A. The town command of Bosanski Samac was exactly that list of

16 self-organised and unarmed citizens that was created in October or

17 November of 1991. This is when the citizens organised themselves when

18 they could see that the 4th Detachment was organised, and other

19 detachments around Bosanski Samac, and when units came from Serbia and so

20 on and so forth.

21 Q. You already answered this. Could you please be brief.

22 A. This was the town command, the command of all citizens.

23 Q. So what is this list of self-organised citizens doing in the town

24 board of SDA? In the last part here, it says: "We please ask you to

25 submit the same list for your disposal."

Page 8747

1 A. This list of self-organised citizens of Bosanski Samac, the Party

2 of Democratic Action verified this list, because based on the order of

3 the presidency and the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, we had the

4 duty to do this and to address all of those who had illegal or legal

5 weapons that was not licenced anywhere.

6 Q. And you call this institution the command of the town of Bosanski

7 Samac?

8 A. Yes, that's correct. It was comprised of all citizens of the town

9 of Bosanski Samac, and later, then it was also on the municipal level.

10 Q. And this list was kept in the town board of SDA? Yes or no?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. But you are the author of this text?

13 A. Yes, I was the author of the text. But you're asking me about the

14 list now. I am the author of this text.

15 Q. As far as I can notice - and you can tell me if I'm wrong or not -

16 in the second part, it says here that the list of persons is also given to

17 the disposal; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: That is on --

20 A. But if you --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the witness answers, that is on which

22 document? Is it P67 or D50?

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On both documents. I'm going to ask

24 the witness to read slowly the last paragraph, but slowly, so that the

25 Trial Chamber and the interpreters can follow.

Page 8748

1 Q. So this is the paragraph that is below the date.

2 A. "On the request of the command of town of Bosanski Samac, we

3 hereby forward their memorandum of 13th of April, 1992, received by the

4 party from the town command on the 14th of April, 1992, with a request to

5 send it to you with the list."

6 "SDA, Party of Democratic Action, town board," signature forged,

7 and stamp of SDA, that the occupier helped themselves with later, after

8 the 16th.

9 Q. The last thing you said, is this your comment or is this written

10 here?

11 A. That's my comment.

12 Q. I only asked you to read what was written here, and I didn't want

13 there to be any mistake.

14 A. I read it.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: This is with regard to D50/3 ter.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. Before your next question,

17 I just wonder if you could -- if you look at your question, on page 36,

18 lines 5 to 7, I don't quite understand - and maybe it's just the

19 translation - where you say -- well, you say: As far as I can notice -

20 you can tell me if I'm wrong or not - in the second part, it says that the

21 list of persons is also given to the disposal; is that correct?" And the

22 witness says "yes." "Disposal," I just don't understand what the question

23 means in the English version here. It seems to be also an important

24 question, and the witness answered "yes." So if you could maybe think

25 back to your original in your own language, that would be useful.

Page 8749

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like your assistance. I do

2 not see the laptop in front of me, so that I cannot see that record and I

3 cannot see what -- okay. I see that a colleague of mine is trying to help

4 me here.

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: It was lines 5 to 7 on page --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter note. The counsel quoted the last

7 part of the document, "with a request to send it to you with the list."

8 MR. PANTELIC: May I give the clarification, Your Honour? It's

9 the second part of the document, which is now on the ELMO. And in fact

10 the question was: "The second part of this document says that the list of

11 persons is also given to the..." for the use or for the knowledge or

12 something like that, in that sense, in Serbian language, that was the

13 question. But obviously it's related to the second part of this document,

14 where the SDA Town Board attached this list to first letter and then sent

15 to TO for the further - I don't know - use or something like that. Thank

16 you.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Pantelic. That explains.

18 And also thank you for the interpreter for your comment on the same note.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, in this part that you said you were the author of,

21 there is a sentence that I'm very interested in. You quoted that you're

22 part -- you're the author of the text in the last part of the

23 communication. That refers to the legally and illegally procured weapons.

24 What was your opinion -- what was your position, so that you put this in?

25 MR. WEINER: I'd object.

Page 8750

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, yes.

2 MR. WEINER: This is a fact witness. I realise he said this, but

3 I don't think he should be offering his legal conclusions to this Court

4 why he said this.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: I think he can explain it, because he says -- he has

6 said he's the author. He can explain it, even though he's a fact witness,

7 because it happens to be something he himself offered.

8 MR. WEINER: All right.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: So the counsel can ask in what sense did he mean,

10 because he does -- he does say a combination of legally and illegally

11 procured weapons. So that -- this is different from the general issues of

12 legality.

13 MR. WEINER: Okay. No problem.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: So the witness can answer that.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see, this document was

16 sent to the municipal staff of Territorial Defence, and here I wanted to

17 point out that our weapons do exist, for which individuals of the

18 Territorial Defence had possession and lawfully owned it. They had the

19 permits of the municipal authorities. And when I said as far as illegally

20 procured weapons, then I wanted to indicate, Mr. Lukic, that the 30 rifles

21 which were procured privately, and another 20 which were also procured

22 privately, and that that be placed under the control of the TO. And once

23 the Territorial Defence was formed, I wasn't interested any more in

24 persons who were in possession of legal weapons. And with this

25 communication, I want to make it public that it be registered with the

Page 8751

1 official authority, the official body, TO, and the municipal staff.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, we're going to be over our time too

3 break. It's 10.34. We'll take our break now and resume our proceedings

4 at 11.05.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, cross-examination.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. The last question concerning this document, I don't know whether I

10 concluded correctly from your last answer, and explain it to me. Does

11 this mean, when I asked you what was considered as legal weapons and/or

12 illegal weapons, that you considered as illegal weapons those weapons

13 which you procured and which you described earlier, the supply from that

14 truck which broke down, the explosive, the 30 rifles? Do you consider

15 that illegal weapons?

16 A. Not illegal, but weapons procured illegally.

17 Q. So that your answer as you wrote it --

18 A. Let me be clear. In a way --

19 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour. I think he's answered the

20 question and I think the more we go into this, you're asking him to make

21 legal decisions or offer legal conclusions.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think -- yes. The answer was complete, in my

23 view. Weapons procured illegally.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree. I have no other submissions

25 in connection with this document, and I propose that document D50/3 ter ID

Page 8752

1 and that this be submitted as official evidence.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean you want D50/3 ter and the English version

3 submitted into evidence?

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner?

6 MR. WEINER: I would ask that the Court wait until after re-direct

7 examination.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

9 MR. WEINER: I have some questions about that document, and see

10 what the answers are, what further discussion we have in relation to that

11 document.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So they will be submitted -- the

13 question -- the Prosecution's position will be we'll go back to them after

14 re-direct.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. And now I would

16 pass on to the next document.

17 I would ask the usher -- this is the document which was disclosed

18 [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... 5727 [Interpretation]

19 However, the document does not have an official translation. I submitted

20 it for translation on the 17th of April. It is -- some of the documents I

21 received, and their translations, but not this one. I would kindly ask

22 the witness to read it slowly. It is also a document of which the witness

23 already spoke with the Prosecution, although I'm not quite sure.

24 Could we receive the identification number, please?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

Page 8753

1 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D51/3 ter ID, Your Honours.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, I would kindly ask you to read this document, but

4 slowly, as we do not have an English translation, from the heading

5 onwards, sir. Maybe it would be easier for you to read from the copy in

6 front of you.

7 A. "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Municipality Bosanski Samac.

8 Municipal staff of Territorial Defence. Number 01/39-1. Date, 16th, 4th,

9 April, 1992."

10 In the upper right corner: "Military secret. Strictly

11 confidential."

12 MR. PANTELIC: I must intervene, Your Honours. Page 42, line 2,

13 it's not clear, 16th and 4th. We have to make a correction to the

14 transcript.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. Yes. Can we have the date again,

16 please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Date, 16.04.1992.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can proceed.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Communication-submitted to the

20 republican staff of TO, Sarajevo."

21 "We are informing you that on the 15.04.1992, the staff of TO of

22 the municipality of Bosanski Samac has been established, and which is

23 expressing its loyalty to the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and will

24 submit itself under the control of the TO staff of the Republic of Bosnia

25 and Herzegovina.

Page 8754

1 "Up until the present day, we have registered on our list of

2 soldiers in our unit, and volunteers, 1.800.

3 "We have at our disposal only some 400 barrels (infantry

4 weapons)."

5 "Financial means for the functioning of the TO staff have not

6 been ensured at the level of the municipality because the financing of the

7 Municipal Assembly in the hands of the opposing forces."

8 Further below to the left: "Drafted in (2)," in brackets, "two

9 writing, two copies, and addressees, copy number 1, to the republican

10 staff of TO SRBH; copy 2, the archives, the file of the municipality SDO."

11 And below, right-hand corner, "Commander Captain Marko Bozanovic."

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. I thank you. Are you acquainted with this document?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. According to your knowledge, was this document drafted and signed

16 by the commander Bozanovic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Does this document reflect the true situation as it was at the

19 time of its drafting?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, pausing. We have the same person,

22 question and answer, interpreting. Yes, you can go ahead.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. As far as these abbreviations go, in the second line, we have

25 "V/O." These are soldiers. And in the last conscript, and what -- "SO"

Page 8755

1 in the last -- "SO" in the last line, that is the assembly of the

2 municipality. Can you tell me from this document: It turns out that you

3 had registered 1.800 members, but here that you had -- and the conscripts

4 and the volunteers. Why is there a distinction which is being drawn

5 between these two terms?

6 A. Yes, I can explain it to you in the following manner: This

7 document was produced on the date which it bears, when also other -- the

8 local communes submitted their list to the TO staff. As that previous

9 document with the city command submitted a communication to the staff of

10 Territorial Defence. So the document exists which states where also the

11 other local communes submitted their list of their conscripts. And as far

12 as this distinction between the conscripts and volunteers, the

13 distinction, the difference, is in the following: That everybody,

14 depending on their age, did not belong in that category of conscripts but

15 signed up as volunteers.

16 For example, maybe these were people who were over 60, 65.

17 Q. I fully agree. But from this answer you've given us, this number

18 1.000 -- this 800 [sic] applies only to Bosanski Samac.

19 A. No. From this, it clearly -- it is clear. When we say that we're

20 informing you that on the 15th, 04, 1992, the staff of TO was founded.

21 Mr. Lukic, I'm answering.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: The record won't make sense. Allow the witness to

23 complete the question.

24 MR. LUKIC: Sorry.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: I can see that because you understand the language,

Page 8756

1 and you're not agreeing with him, so you intervene.

2 MR. LUKIC: I forgot that you have no English translation in front

3 of you. Sorry.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And also, the record has to make sense.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So read this sentence, please.

7 A. The answer is, from the first sentence, you can see we are

8 informing you that on the 15th, 04, 1992, the TO staff was formed, staff

9 of Territorial Defence, of the municipality of Bosanski Samac, its

10 municipality, and not the town.

11 Q. I understood that. And the volunteers, they didn't have this

12 obligation as the conscripts had?

13 A. The volunteers were those people whose age exceeded the legal

14 limits.

15 Q. The conscripts also applied their own free will, voluntarily?

16 A. Yes, also on a voluntary basis.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not need this document any more

18 and I will move on to another subject.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, I'm sure you are aware that you've

20 exceeded the one and-a-half hours already. I hope had you are coming to a

21 close, yes.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Madam President, I am fully aware of

23 that. We are discussing just a single document for 45 minutes, and I

24 certainly didn't expect that we would have three different copies of that

25 document. I'll try to wind up as soon as possible.

Page 8757

1 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, at the end of the examination-in-chief, you

2 described what your tasks were after swimming across the river in the

3 municipality of Odzak. I think you can give us some information about

4 Odzak. On the 5th, 6th, 7th of May, in Odzak, negotiations were under

5 way, under the auspices of the international observers, concerning the

6 encircled Serbs in the town?

7 A. Those dates, I was not on the territory of the municipality of

8 Odzak, and I know nothing about this.

9 Q. We have information that you, as a representative of HVO, were

10 present at these negotiations.

11 A. Your information is erroneous.

12 Q. So you have no information about the incarceration of Serbs in

13 Novi Grad?

14 A. No, none whatsoever.

15 Q. I assume you knew quite well Marko Bozanovic.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you know Mijo Matanovic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what was the function of this

20 person and his role?

21 A. Which person?

22 Q. I'm referring to Mijo Matanovic.

23 A. During the period you're referring to, I don't know what Mijo

24 Matanovic was doing at the time.

25 Q. And for what period you do know what his function was and his

Page 8758

1 activity was?

2 A. I've known him during the period of July, when I visited him and

3 requested that my wife and children be allowed to move from Bosanski Samac

4 because their lives were being threatened.

5 Q. Please answer me. What was that person? What was his function?

6 Why did you go there? Mijo Matanovic.

7 A. He worked on exchanges, and I've known him since July.

8 Q. For whom did he work on the question of exchange? Did he work for

9 the Serbian, Croatian, or the Muslim side? Do you know that?

10 A. At the time he worked for the Territorial Defence.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, we are discussing July 1992? Thank you.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Do you know that he was a member of the Exchange Commission of HVO

14 for Bosnian Posavina? Do you know that? Yes or no?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The two of us understand each other, but also the Trial Chamber

17 must understand what we're saying.

18 You also mentioned during the examination-in-chief to the

19 Prosecutor that you were present at the exchanges which took place between

20 the Croatian and the Yugoslav side in the town of Samac, and you also said

21 that, among other things, this also created a poor climate in the

22 relations.

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner?

25 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we seem to have a bit of a problem.

Page 8759

1 Counsel is asking a question, he's answering a question. By the time they

2 finish the question, get to his answer, counsel is starting the next

3 question. I have no opportunity to object if there's something

4 objectionable. They've got to slow down.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

6 Mr. Lukic and Mr. Fitozovic, please do pause.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Do you remember, in 1991 and up until the outbreak of conflict,

9 how many exchanges took place in Samac, to your recollection, and if you

10 remember when these exchanges took place?

11 A. Well, the exchanges did take place at the municipality of Bosanski

12 Samac, in Bosanski Samac itself, and the number of exchanges was, as far

13 as I know, three or four.

14 Q. Can we agree that they all took place at the end of 1991? When

15 was the last exchange? Do you remember?

16 A. No, I do not.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender another

18 document in connection with this. It is the document -- an article from

19 the paper Oslobodjenje from the 10th of November, 1991, which describes

20 the exchange which took place in Samac. I have also an official

21 translation. And this has also been submitted to the Prosecution.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Has the Prosecution seen this document?

23 MR. WEINER: Yes. It was supplied to us last week. Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?

25 MR. WEINER: No objection, Your Honour.

Page 8760

1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we have it as an exhibit? Can we

2 have the number?

3 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D52/3 for the English translation and

4 D52/3 ter for the B/C/S version. Thank you.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to correct my learned

6 colleague of the Prosecution. I disclosed this document in September of

7 2001 to the Prosecution. Last week, I reminded him that I would be using

8 this document after I heard what the witness had to say.

9 Q. Could you please read, Mr. Fitozovic, this document? I would like

10 to ask you a number of questions about it. The daily Oslobodjenje, where

11 was it being published? Do you remember?

12 A. On the territory of the entire Yugoslavia.

13 Q. Where was it published?

14 A. On the territory of the entire Yugoslavia.

15 Q. My question was where the headquarters of this news agency was.

16 A. In the territory of the entire Yugoslavia, there were bureaus of

17 Oslobodjenje.

18 Q. Was the seat of Oslobodjenje in Sarajevo? Yes or no?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you remember the exchange that took place in Bosanski Samac on

21 November 9th, 1991, between Croatia and the Yugoslav side?

22 A. Yes, I do. I remember this exchange.

23 Q. Do you remember who came from the Croatian side and who went to

24 the Croatian side?

25 A. One part of the war detainees from east Slavonia went to Croatia.

Page 8761

1 Q. Members of the Croatian army that were caught by the JNA; is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And to the territory of the then SFRY, or Bosnia-Herzegovina, do

5 you remember who went there?

6 A. Members of the JNA.

7 Q. During these exchanges, do you remember that people who were

8 exchanged and who would go to the Croatian side across the bridge on the

9 river Sava, that they were not taken to the town of Samac, that they were

10 taken instead directly to the bridge?

11 A. Yes. They were taken to the area where today the free customs

12 area is.

13 Q. And the playground in the centre, members and soldiers of the JNA

14 and other persons that were coming from Croatia and going towards

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, were placed?

16 A. I don't know about that.

17 Q. You did not bring them hamburgers?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. I have one short topic. I wanted to read portions of this

20 document with this witness.

21 A. But it doesn't say here that they were at the stadium. I don't

22 know where they were. How can you claim that they were at the stadium?

23 Q. My question is whether you knew that on the playground by the

24 primary school, buses with people from Croatia were put and that those

25 people later would go towards Bosnia.

Page 8762

1 A. I'm not aware of that.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have only a few more questions about

3 a very brief subject.

4 Q. When you answered questions of the Prosecution, and also of

5 Mr. Pisarevic, you described your return from Prud in the early morning

6 hours, around 4.00. You said to the Prosecutor: "Then I found myself

7 there with my men." Do you remember this? When you crossed the bridge

8 from Prud to Samac and you arrived in Samac in the early hours.

9 A. On the 17th of April, at 4.30, I was not in Bosanski Samac.

10 Q. I apologise. At 9.30. It was my mistake.

11 A. At 9.30, I met my men.

12 Q. My question is as follows: At that time did you also meet

13 Ibrahim Salkic, nicknamed Ibela? Do you remember this?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you meet Kemal Mehinovic?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you meet the brothers Dagovic, Esad and Safet?

18 A. Mr. Lukic, I can tell you who I met with. I met with

19 Ivica Dzebic, who at that time told me that his brother was killed. A

20 pistol was put in his mouth and that's how he was killed. And I also met

21 Zeljko Sedic.

22 Q. And you met nobody else?

23 A. Pasaga Tihic was also there.

24 Q. I have one further question as part of my cross-examination.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness a

Page 8763

1 map. Just a moment. Actually, I have here with me map D49/3, and I would

2 like the witness to indicate where these locations were, for example, the

3 office where he was hiding and so on, where he was hiding the first night.

4 He said that this was, as far as I can remember, in Marsal Tito Street. I

5 might be wrong about this, though.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Lukic, may I just call your attention to the

7 fact that D49/3 is a ter document. It's actually a list of exchanged

8 people. D49/3 ter ID. Thank you.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. There are two

10 marks, because we tendered it twice. The basic number is D27/3 ter ID.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: It's a map, is it?

12 MR. LUKIC: It's a map.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. You just said on the record a map

14 D49/3. Thank you.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I tendered this map the first time

16 when it was given the number D27/3.

17 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, my question will be very short. If you could --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you just wait? I'm wondering whether the map

19 given to the witness -- the one on the ELMO, is that from the registry?

20 Is that the copy from the registry or is it a clean copy which you intend

21 to use of the -- yes. Let's just get this clear.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The registrar can also see that this

23 is a clean copy, and I would like the witness to indicate where he was

24 hiding.

25 Q. You have in front of you a marker, Mr. Fitozovic, and I would like

Page 8764

1 to ask you, if you could, to indicate on this map where was the office

2 where you were hiding in? And then from there, you went to the Usce

3 building. What street was it in? And could you please put a dot where it

4 is, and if you could, a number 1 right next to it.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. This is Marsala Tito Street, near -- ?

7 A. The city library.

8 Q. And also near the bridge over the river Bosna, towards Prud; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You said that you left this area because a shell fell nearby.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you indicate where this shell was -- where the shell hit?

14 Could you please put a dot there as well.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Do you know where the shell came from?

17 A. It came from the direction of Skaric.

18 Q. How would you know this?

19 A. I know it because these shells flew over my head, and they weren't

20 falling in this location here; they were falling across the river Sava.

21 Not a single shell fell in this location here. They were all falling

22 towards Sava and over the river Sava, and it was obvious that this one

23 fell too short.

24 Q. So it is your claim that this shell came from the side that was

25 under the control of the Serb soldiers?

Page 8765

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you please indicate with a number 3 where you hid next.

3 Where are these premises of Usce?

4 A. This isn't really a good map, but here.

5 Q. Could you please put number 3 there.

6 A. These are the premises of Usce Bosne, and also a residential

7 area owned by the family Dzakic.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to state for the record

9 that the witness, under 1, showed the law firm where he was on the 17th of

10 April; under number 2, the location where the shell fell that, by his

11 word, came from Skaric; and under 3, he identified the building where he

12 went to next.

13 Q. And these are the premises of the Usce Bosne company; is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes, Usce Bosne, and also the family home of Dzakic.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document,

18 and I would like an ID for this document. And I have no further

19 questions, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: You want it an exhibit in your case, isn't it,

21 Mr. Lukic, this map which Mr. Fitozovic has just marked? Because you said

22 you wanted an ID number.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I would like to tender

24 it. It can get a full mark. The problem is that the basic map that has

25 the name of -- has the number of D27/3 has an ID number because we're

Page 8766

1 not convinced yet of its authenticity, whereas this map that he has put

2 his marks on right now can be an evidence.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because what I noticed was that the witness

4 had no problem identifying the various places you wanted him to mark.

5 Any objection from the Prosecution?

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I have no objection. If he wants and

7 the witness can say this is a valid map, we can put both of them in --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Not really. It's just that the witness has marked

9 it and the Prosecution has no objection.

10 MR. WEINER: I have no objection.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please.

12 THE REGISTRAR: The registrar would like to make it clear for the

13 record that the map marked by witness -- previous witness Esad Dagovic, on

14 the 13th of February, it was admitted on the 18th of February, so it's no

15 longer an ID document. It's D27/3 ter document.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. So this one, what's the number?

17 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D53/3, Your Honours. Thank you.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: If I could just clarify with the registry

19 assistant. You said it was admitted?

20 THE REGISTRAR: I have it done as admitted on the 18th of

21 February, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. It's just my recollection there was some

23 controversy at that time with that witness, but if that's correct, that's

24 correct.

25 THE REGISTRAR: I can check the record in the meanwhile, Your

Page 8767

1 Honour. Thank you.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to remind the Trial Chamber

3 that I tendered this document during the cross-examination of Esad Dagovic

4 -- actually, this is how I remember it. And then he made some comments

5 on some buildings and he said that the map was not accurate. And

6 therefore, I said that I would try to make sure to get an opinion about

7 how authentic and true the map is.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I also said that some of the

9 buildings here were not quite accurately located.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think that is on record.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank

12 you very much.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 Mr. Pantelic?

15 MR. PANTELIC: Prior to beginning, Your Honours, allow me to just

16 make a quick reference to the issue with regard to the way of examination

17 of the witness, which was firstly made by this Trial Chamber on the 18th

18 of October, 2001, page 2524, 2525. And then a quote of Madam President of

19 this Bench, 7th of November, 2001, page 3643. In brief, I just want to

20 make this reference to my learned friends because I don't want to be

21 interrupted by the way how I will make my cross-examination. I don't want

22 to have any kind of objection with regard to the coaching of this witness.

23 And finally, everything is clear. I have -- and I will put to this

24 witness certain events, certain facts, according to the instruction of

25 this Trial Chamber.

Page 8768

1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, Mr. Pantelic. You can go ahead.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Because I'm entitled to do that. Thank you.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Fitozovic. My name is

5 Pantelic. I am the trial attorney of Mr. Blagoje Simic. Could you please

6 turn on the microphone that is in front of you.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. Did you visit Blagoje Simic and his family?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you ever patronise restaurants with him?

11 A. Maybe we had a drink here and there.

12 Q. 1991?

13 A. It's possible.

14 Q. 1992?

15 A. It's possible.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please make a pause before

17 asking the next question.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, you remember to pause.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Allow the answer to be interpreted.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry.

22 Q. [Interpretation] You are a witness that, from October to, say,

23 March -- October 1991, March 1992, there was a lot of effort to find a

24 peaceful solution, both by the international community and all the

25 institutions in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 8769

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. These activities had to do with the Lisbon Agreement in February

3 1991, where all three parties, political parties, participated; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Well, let me tell you. The Lisbon Agreement, and all the other

6 ones, you could have asked other witnesses about this. I couldn't really

7 tell you much about this, or in any detail.

8 Q. Did you find out about these things through the media or through

9 your party membership?

10 A. Yes, through the media.

11 Q. You will agree with me that on the level of the municipality,

12 between the three coalition partners - SDA, SDA, and HDZ - there have also

13 been some talks going on that had to do with the implementation of a

14 possible agreement and things like that?

15 A. I wouldn't agree with you there.

16 Q. I was asking you whether you have any knowledge that they talked

17 about these issues.

18 A. No, I don't have any knowledge about that.

19 Q. You were present when the SDA in Samac created its town board; is

20 that correct?

21 A. I did not understand the question.

22 Q. Were you present when the municipal board of Samac was created in

23 1991?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You were not in the hall, in the room at that time?

Page 8770

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were you there when Mr. Alija Izetbegovic was in Samac?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Why was he there?

5 A. I think it had to do with his election campaign.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: What period is that? We would like to clarify. The

7 one to which the witness has answered.

8 MR. PANTELIC: That's my next question, Your Honour.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please tell me when this happened?

10 When did you see Alija Izetbegovic in Samac?

11 A. 1990. And your question had to do with that period.

12 Q. Was Alija Izetbegovic in Samac at other occasions as well?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. You didn't see him; is that what you're trying to say?

15 A. When?

16 Q. After that period.

17 A. Which period?

18 Q. After 1990.

19 A. I did not see him.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. You're welcome.

22 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you were a reserve captain before April 1992; is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After you left Samac, you joined the military formations of HVO;

Page 8771

1 is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What rank were you assigned in HVO?

4 A. Soldier.

5 Q. "Bojnik" means officer and I believe -- [No interpretation]

6 A. No. It's major.

7 Q. Good. So for clarification of the record, Mr. Fitozovic, we can

8 agree upon the fact that your rank in Croatian Defence Council was Major;

9 isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So when we talk about this in the future, if I say "Major," that

12 means the rank of Major; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You would agree with me, Major, sir, that with the destruction of

15 JNA, with the dissolution of JNA, JNA soldiers went to different military

16 formations, one of them being the army of Republika Srpska?

17 A. Mr. Pantelic, as far as I know, I am a witness here up until the

18 date of the 28th of April, 1992, at which time I was still a reserve

19 captain at the JNA. So in my testimony here, from what I understood, the

20 war period is not included. So from the 28th of April onwards, that time

21 frame is not the topic of my testimony. This is what I have been told.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Fitozovic. That is not strictly correct.

23 And the reason is you may have information of events which were happening

24 in other places, not necessarily that you were personally involved, that

25 you may know of. So you should answer questions beyond 28th April, 1992,

Page 8772

1 if you know the answers.

2 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

3 MR. WEINER: I was just going to apologise, Your Honour. What

4 he's confused about is during direct examination I just told him what I

5 was going to go over and I told him I wasn't going to discuss the war

6 period, and that's why he's a little confused. I apologise.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. This is cross-examination; therefore, counsel

8 is allowed to go beyond 28th April, 1992. And if you know the answers,

9 please go ahead and give the answers. If you don't know, you say so.

10 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Major, sir, this question is very simple. I will have to divide

12 it into three parts, but it has to do with the following situation: The

13 JNA is being dissolved and officers of the JNA are joining the BH army,

14 the HVO, and the Republika Srpska military. This is a well-known fact.

15 A. That is not the case, Mr. Pantelic.

16 Q. All right. Then I'll ask another question. Who is

17 Sefer Halilovic?

18 A. He is an officer of the former JNA.

19 Q. In the -- inside the BH army, what was his position?

20 A. I don't know. I was fighting on the side of the HVO.

21 Q. Well, let's use a more familiar line to you. Major Fitozovic,

22 could you please tell me: Who is General Bobetko? Was he an officer in

23 the JNA?

24 A. I don't know that.

25 Q. Was General Blaskic -- he was also a member of the HVO, just like

Page 8773

1 you. Was he also a member in the former JNA?

2 A. Yes. He was an officer in the former JNA.

3 Q. So let's conclude. Don't be afraid. This is all very simple.

4 A. I'm not afraid, sir. Based on what can you conclude that I'm

5 afraid?

6 Q. Well, let's not avoid questions. They are all very simple ones.

7 Let's not avoid the answers.

8 A. What question did I avoid?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Your role is to cross-examine and then the witness

12 can answer. You don't have to argue with the witness.

13 MR. PANTELIC: I agree.

14 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Fitozovic, could we agree that officers

15 of the former JNA went and joined other military formations, such as HVO,

16 B and H army, and the military of Republika Srpska? Could we agree on

17 this or not?

18 A. During the dissolution of JNA, we could not agree on this.

19 Q. Can we agree on this: That it took place after the dissolution of

20 the JNA?

21 A. Please ask me a concrete question.

22 Q. After May 1992, did the JNA officers join different armed

23 formations in the Balkans, like the HVO, the BH army, and the army of the

24 Republic of Srpska? Did they or did they not?

25 A. As far as I know, they did go. They joined the army of the

Page 8774

1 Republic of Srpska and they joined also the units of the Territorial

2 Defence.

3 Q. As are HVO?

4 A. Sir, we're not speaking of the HVO. HVO is something else.

5 Q. Major Fitozovic, do you know anything about the setting up of the

6 community -- in December of 1991, of the community Bosanska Posavina.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Croatian community.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The Croatian community of Bosanska Posavina.

9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Well, you did answer, but it didn't enter the transcript. Do you

11 know anything about the Croatian community of Bosanski Posavina?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In the period of 1991; is that it? This is leading me to the next

14 question. When did you -- when were you informed about the community --

15 Croatian community of Bosanska Posavina?

16 A. After the occupation of the municipality of Bosanski Samac, in

17 October/November 1992.

18 Q. What was the HVO within the Croatian Community of Bosanska

19 Posavina?

20 A. In which period?

21 Q. During the period of the establishment of the Croatian Community

22 of Bosanska Posavina. Can we agree that this was the military wing of

23 this organisation? Can we agree on that or no?

24 A. Please tell me what period are you referring to? I will willingly

25 answer.

Page 8775

1 Q. In my question, from the moment it was the Croatian Community of

2 Bosanska Posavina, can we agree that the HVO is the military wing of that

3 organisation?

4 A. I told you already that I don't know when the Croatian Community

5 of Bosanski Posavina was founded.

6 Q. And I asked -- let me rephrase the question. What kind of

7 knowledge do you have -- what kind of knowledge do you have about HVO in

8 Bosanska Posavina, as you were a member of this military establishment?

9 A. I know that in the territory of Bosanska Posavina, up until

10 November 1992, there was -- the Territorial Defence existed as a military

11 formation, but from that month onward, until the end of the war, HVO

12 existed as a military component.

13 Q. Which brigade did you join of the HVO?

14 A. 104th Brigade of the Bosanska Samac Brigade.

15 Q. And how many HVO brigades existed on the territory of Posavina?

16 A. Two brigades.

17 Q. What were their insignia or the number, as you were -- you were in

18 104th. What was the others' insignia?

19 A. I didn't understand your previous question well.

20 Q. I shall explain. How many HVO brigades operated in Bosanska

21 Posavina?

22 A. Six brigades.

23 Q. And tell us, what were their symbols, 101st, 2nd, 103rd, 104th,

24 105th and 106th Brigade? What about the 107th Brigade, HVO Gradacac?

25 A. Well, it existed, but under a different -- it was under a

Page 8776

1 different command.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I have a map here. We already

3 tendered into evidence. This is an extract from the demographic expert of

4 the Prosecution side. My learned friend can just take a look. I want

5 this witness to make some markings on that map. Thank you.

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I have no problem with the map, but some

7 of the names you can't read. Do you have a clearer copy?

8 MR. PANTELIC: No. It's not necessary to have -- I mean, this is

9 the best that the machine can produce. It's only in general terms, the

10 line of -- you know, between two warring parties, stuff like that. It's

11 not necessary to have all the details about the towns.

12 MR. WEINER: We'll place it to the witness. If the witness ask --

13 MR. PANTELIC: My friend, maybe you were not here. We already

14 used that with Mr. Di Fazio.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: It's possible that we already used it with another

16 witness. Let's see if this witness will be able to find his way on the

17 map.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely.

19 Mr. Usher, put this map in front of the witness, please, and then

20 we shall put it on the ELMO. You can have a seat in the meantime, because

21 I have some questions.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Major Fitozovic, please take this highlighter,

23 the black or the blue one. When leaving Samac in April 1992, where was

24 your 104th Brigade situated? Can you draw the front line where you were

25 located in your capacity as an officer? Give us an approximate position.

Page 8777

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Now would you please, for the transcript, dictate that this line

3 went along these and this positions, so that the Trial Chamber could

4 follow you.

5 A. So river Sava, village of Grebnice, hamlet of Masici, the village

6 Domaljevac, and river Sava.

7 Q. Thank you. Could you please mark it now with number 1. You will

8 agree that number 1 marks the front line in April, conditionally, 1992?

9 A. Mr. Pantelic, your question was where was I situated. We did not

10 speak about the front line. I marked the place where I was situated.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That was --

12 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] I accept that.

13 Q. So number 1 was the position where you were located as a member of

14 the 104th Brigade of the HVO; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On the side of Prud, who covered that operational zone by the HVO?

17 A. The 102nd Brigade.

18 Q. What was the line of division? Was it river Bosna?

19 A. I cannot tell you. I don't know.

20 Q. But you were in some special missions in Odzak, in Modrica, and

21 Derventa. This is what you said also to the Prosecutor.

22 A. Yes. That's what I said. But nobody asked me how long I spent

23 there.

24 Q. Under whose control was that zone?

25 A. I've answered that question. Brigade 102nd and -- 102nd Brigade.

Page 8778

1 Q. Please write down at Prud, "Brigade 102".

2 A. The number 2 went a bit astray. I hope there's nothing wrong with

3 that.

4 Q. Do you have any knowledge on connections between the BH army from

5 Gradacac with the HVO brigades near Odzak? Do you know anything about

6 these connections and ties on this position?

7 A. No, I have no information on that.

8 Q. What were you commanding in 104th Brigade?

9 A. I commanded nothing.

10 Q. What was your position?

11 A. I was the chief of engineers.

12 Q. Of engineers. What were your tasks in Odzak, Derventa, and

13 Modrica?

14 A. I said special tasks.

15 Q. Special. Could you tell us, what are these special purposes?

16 A. Building defence lines.

17 Q. When did you go there?

18 A. In June and July.

19 Q. The Bosanski Brod zone was under the control of HVO; isn't it so?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Odzak was also under the control of the HVO?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Derventa was under the control of HVO?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Modrica was under the control of the HVO?

Page 8779

1 A. Yes. Yes, for a short period of time.

2 Q. Gradacac was under the control of the BH army; isn't it so?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You also know of the paramilitary formation which was committing

5 crimes, the Vatreni Konji unit, Croatian unit?

6 A. No, I was not aware of that.

7 Q. During your stay in the HVO, you were acquainted with military

8 task and duty -- the civilians had to perform work duty? You knew that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I assume that the Ministry of Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina

11 coordinated the work duty and these zones where you were.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who organised and controlled the work duties in your area?

14 A. I do not know.

15 Q. Now, Major Fitozovic, I will be showing you a military map. Maybe

16 you could give us a commentary on it; and if not, just say, "I don't

17 know." It concerns the positioning of HVO forces and Serbian forces

18 before the penetration of the corridor. So first look at it, then if you

19 can give me some information, and later on we will tender it for evidence.

20 But if you cannot give me information, just say so. I will see with

21 others.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm wondering about the previous map the witness --

23 MR. PANTELIC: The previous map can be tendered into evidence if

24 there's no objection from Prosecution side.

25 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, it wasn't placed on the ELMO. I don't

Page 8780

1 know what sort of markings he made on the map.

2 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Would you place it on the ELMO,

3 please. [In English] Number 102 is the HVO 102nd Brigade, according to

4 the witness; number 1 is position -- his personal position on the front,

5 under the control of HVO, 104 Brigade.

6 MR. WEINER: I have no objection to that.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a number, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D32/1, Your Honours. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the next map, then.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Put it, please, Mr. Usher, on the ELMO.

11 Q. [Interpretation] And Major Fitozovic, please look at the map. It

12 is a military map, isn't it?

13 A. Yes, it's a military map.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 A. Consisting -- produced by the Serbian army. We didn't write and

16 mark in this manner.

17 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Try to answer. According to your recollection, as you were in

19 this front zone, does this map reflect the true situation among the

20 warring sides in the period May-July 1992, in your view? You have the HVO

21 Brigades, the BH army, the operational group of the Serbian army. So

22 you're an expert. Was that the situation on the front at the time?

23 A. I don't see the 104th Brigade here, the one of which I was a

24 member.

25 Q. The 104th was most probably immediately after Grebnice, to the

Page 8781

1 left. You can see here Samac, and further left you cannot see anything.

2 A. I don't know that the distribution of forces was such.

3 MR. PANTELIC: The military map, please.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have it marked for identification.

5 MR. PANTELIC: For ID, yes. Why not?

6 Mr. Usher, please --

7 Could I prepare enough copies of that map? Or maybe I can --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: You have only one copy?

9 MR. PANTELIC: Only one. I can do that through the registry. No

10 problem.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Please, could we have an ID number for this

13 military map of corridor 2.

14 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D33/1 ID, Your Honours.

15 MR. PANTELIC: And the other map where the witness made certain

16 markings, do we have a number for that map?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. Mr. Usher, please, you can take the

19 documents. These two maps, Mr. Usher. No problem. I'm going to another

20 topic.

21 Q. [Interpretation] In front of this Court, Witness, Major Fitozovic,

22 you said that, on the transcript page 8504, row 22 -- line 22, you said

23 that when you went to Prud, that the enemy forces were outside but that

24 they were also inside Samac. Do you remember stating that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8782

1 Q. I'd be interested -- can we agree that the Serbs from Samac, with

2 their formations, TO and police, they were considered enemies, weren't

3 they?

4 A. No.

5 Q. I will show you a statement now which you signed in 1995, and

6 submitted it to the Prosecution, the 13th, 14th, and 16th of February in

7 1995. Do you remember that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I will go through some of these statements. I will read them out.

10 I will tell you what page it is and I will just ask whether it's accurate

11 or not.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, I think you can take a seat, because we

13 shall -- this is B/C/S version, so ...

14 Q. [Interpretation] Do you recognise this statement which was

15 submitted by you to the Prosecution in 1995?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yes. And you also signed the English version and recognised it as

18 an original?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Major Fitozovic, do you ever lie?

21 A. Mr. Pantelic, you also lie.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's get on with the work we are sitting here for.

23 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, just a quick question. We have another

24 witness waiting. Can we just get an idea how long Mr. Pantelic -- we keep

25 on getting messages to the trial manager. Should we bring this next

Page 8783

1 witness in? If he's going to have an extensive cross - I believe we're

2 going to be breaking in the next ten minutes - I'll just cancel the

3 witness.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?

5 MR. PANTELIC: I will tell Your Honours. I have, let's say, six

6 or eight documents. All these documents, they speak for themselves,

7 actually. I don't have any big questions about it. But the way how the

8 witness will explain or respond can cause a certain problem with regard to

9 the time, time limits that I have. I have only a few topics about Samac.

10 I have a couple of questions about his statement from 1995. I would say

11 40, 45 minutes, something like that, would be enough.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Because that has gone beyond what you had indicated,

13 which was an hour or less.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, but given the fact that I was here present

15 when this witness, during the introduction of certain documents, made

16 certain explanations, in that sense, I said that might be 40, 45 minutes.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Just go to your questions as quickly as

18 possible so that we don't take too much time.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Absolutely.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Fitozovic, did you state to the Prosecution

21 that you were lying in Samac about the Serb members of TO? Yes or no?

22 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honour. What he's doing is

23 he's taking a comment -- there's a statement there. If he reads the full

24 statement and then asks him if that's true --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

Page 8784

1 MR. WEINER: You know, there's -- it's ...

2 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. I don't want to mislead the witness.

3 Absolutely, Your Honour.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Fitozovic, please turn to page 5 of your

5 statement, 006380.

6 A. 003379.

7 Q. Well, it's the next page. In the first paragraph, please read the

8 sentence. Read the sentence beginning, "I said that on that day ..." It

9 would be the fifth line. Or may I read it to see and then check me

10 whether I'm reading correctly:

11 "I said that on that day, 150 Serbs joined the TO, which was a

12 lie."

13 Did you say that to the Prosecution?

14 A. Nobody even asked me that.

15 Q. Wait a minute. This is your statement. Did you state that to the

16 Prosecution?

17 A. Yes. I said it as it's written. I must also add: I said that

18 150 Serbs joined the Territorial Defence on that day, which is a lie.

19 Some did join, but a lesser number.

20 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, in the re-direct, you will be able to answer that.

21 So go to the next page and find the third-but-last paragraph. Somewhere

22 in the middle, there's a sentence: "I said that I would go and check what

23 the situation is. I lied."

24 Did you find that sentence?

25 MR. WEINER: Once again, Your Honour, I have no problem with him

Page 8785

1 doing this, but he's just reading one sentence out of context. If he can

2 place the rest of it in context. Just like if he could place the rest of

3 this one in context. You see what they're doing, they're just sparring

4 with each other. You know, if he could read maybe the paragraph. It's a

5 totally different situation.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. Let's go. Let's go to another topic. No

7 problem with me, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Pantelic. Let the witness answer.

9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Did you say that in 1995?

11 A. Mr. Pantelic, I was sincere.

12 Q. Okay. Let's go on.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Actually, Mr. Pantelic, as Judge Mumba has said,

14 and Mr. Weiner also mentioned about context, I don't want you to move on

15 from that, leaving the word "lie" twice in my head. I want to know what

16 the context is, why did the witness say about the 150 Serbs and so on and

17 so forth, and then also the second quotation you made, too. I want to

18 know the context. You can either read out the whole paragraph, or the

19 witness can. Maybe that's the clearest way to put it, rather than have a

20 paraphrase.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely.

22 Q. [Interpretation] With regard to the first statement that you read

23 out and that I said, you said to the Prosecutor that on that day, there

24 were 150 Serbs there, which was a lie. Could you please explain why you

25 used this word, that it was a lie? Because from what I understood from

Page 8786

1 you, it wasn't 150 Serbs that were there.

2 A. That was my tactic.

3 Q. So that's what we're talking about?

4 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I think it's satisfied your inquiry,

5 his tactics.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I now have a question for the witness.

7 Your tactics vis-a-vis whom?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vis-a-vis creating an equilibrium in

9 the town.

10 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Armed equilibrium? Armed balance?

12 A. No, not armed balance.

13 Q. Okay. Let's move on, Mr. Fitozovic. When I quoted, I said, "When

14 I said that I would see what the situation was, I lied," you said this to

15 some of your townspeople, Muslims. You said you were going to check

16 something, when actually, in your next statement, you say: "I went in

17 order to flee." So from what I understood, you left your fellow

18 townspeople, the other Muslims, and you went away.

19 A. You're taking this out of context. All those that remained were

20 either killed or taken to camps, Mr. Pantelic. I was talking here about

21 my escape from this hell.

22 Q. Let's have a break now, Mr. Fitozovic. Could you just tell me now

23 how many dead people were -- how many victims were there in Samac of

24 Muslims and Croats? Ten, fifteen, a hundred, a thousand? What's the

25 number?

Page 8787

1 A. In the first hour, there were two.

2 Q. But during all the activities, how many Muslims and Croats were

3 killed?

4 A. I wouldn't know.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Let's have a break.

6 Your Honour, is that appropriate?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: We're supposed to have a break for 20 minutes.

8 We're going to be under the time. We'll resume at 10 to 1.00.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. You continue cross-examination.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours. Thank you. I have a document

14 here. It's a kind of sketch of certain power plants or something, that

15 was discovered -- that was given to the witness and to the Prosecution

16 days before, and I would like to discuss this document with the witness.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: What's its title? What did you say it was about?

18 MR. PANTELIC: I would say it's a sketch -- my understanding is

19 that's a sketch of electric power lines in the area of Samac.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Something like that. I'm not an expert, so ...

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

23 MR. PANTELIC: That's my understanding.

24 Mr. Usher, please. Mr. Usher, keep one copy for the ELMO, and I

25 will give the original of this sketch to the witness, and of course copy

Page 8788

1 for the Prosecution.

2 So I have the original of this document.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

4 MR. PANTELIC: And maybe we could -- maybe the witness can --

5 could we have ID number maybe?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: According to instructions, Mr. Pantelic, this sketch

7 is drawn -- was drawn by who?

8 MR. PANTELIC: By this witness.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. It has two pages. Can we have the ID

10 number, please, for it.

11 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you can take a look at the original and the

13 other -- the copy can be on the ELMO.

14 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D34/1 ID ter.

15 MR. PANTELIC: And also I will kindly ask Mr. Usher if he can

16 kindly give the original to our friends from the Prosecution, just to

17 compare the copy that they have.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I presume, Mr. Pantelic, you'll be identifying

19 when the witness made this sketch and so on.

20 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct, yes. Nothing more. Just that

21 question and we shall go to the other documents.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I wanted to find out from the Prosecution about --

23 MR. WEINER: I'm sorry. I've always been given just -- it's a

24 two-sided document. I've only seen the front of it. I've never seen the

25 back. So I'm just looking at it.

Page 8789

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. So this document didn't originally come

2 from the Prosecution?

3 MR. WEINER: No. I have the front of it. I'm just looking at the

4 back.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Then you can look at it.

6 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. All right, Mr. Fitozovic. You are an expert for these electrical

8 distribution objects; is that correct? You worked for

9 Elektrodistribucija?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When did you draw this diagram, and what is it exactly? Could you

12 please explain this to the Trial Chamber.

13 A. Your Honours, this document is not complete. This is just a

14 portion of a document that was found in my apartment while it was looted.

15 This was taken out of a document that is missing here, and that is a

16 textual portion of this document, and that is very important.

17 Q. Let's do this in order. You recognise this document? You drew

18 this diagram; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, but it was taken from the rest of the -- from the remainder

20 of the original document. And if we go in order, then we should be

21 presented with the entire document, including the text that accompanied

22 this drawing.

23 Q. I only have this document.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, I just want to explain to the witness

25 that his explanation is understood. He just has to look at the document

Page 8790

1 as presented to him, and then he can answer the questions accordingly. If

2 he needs to explain anything, then he will be allowed to do so.

3 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So could you please explain to us what this diagram represents?

5 A. This diagram represents the one polar scheme for the distribution

6 of electrical -- of electricity of the local commune of Domaljevac,

7 Brvnik, Obudovac, Grebnice, Kornica [phoen], and Batkusa, and Slatina. I

8 don't know if I already mentioned this.

9 Q. Towards the end of the document, I see Samac 1 and Samac 2. What

10 is this?

11 A. One hundred to the power of 32. This means the main substation in

12 the town, that is, 100/35/10. That is the main substation in the town.

13 Q. And in the second -- on the second page?

14 A. Well, wait. I didn't answer your first question. And this

15 station was used to supply electricity to the municipality of Bosanski

16 Samac, Odzak, also Orasje temporarily, and Modrica.

17 Q. Are you done with the answer, sir?

18 A. Yes. I answered your question what is TS 110/35/10 AV. You also

19 asked about TS 35/10 KV, Samac 1. This is also an electrical installation

20 that supplied a part of town with electricity, also the local communes of

21 Skaric, Pisari, Crkvina, Zasavica, Donji Hasic, Gornji Hasic, and Kruskovo

22 Polje, and also the local commune of Prud.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, could you please turn the other page of

24 the ELMO.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Fitozovic, could you please look at the

Page 8791

1 second page of this document, and could you explain to us what this

2 portion of the diagram means. But could you please keep your answers

3 brief, because we're not experts, so we really don't need to know all the

4 answers.

5 A. This is very important, Mr. Pantelic, and I am being very quick

6 here. On the other page, you can see the regional road

7 Grebnice/Slatina-Obudovac, and also a side road leading to Novo Selo.

8 These squares here that have crosses inside them represent the power

9 supply posts, and KB 171, that is probably a house number.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have this document as an exhibit, Your

11 Honours? Of course, according to the position of the Prosecution.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I wanted to ask the witness, Mr. Fitozovic,

13 when did you draw this diagram, if you can remember?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I drew this diagram in April 1992.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

16 The Prosecution, any objection?

17 MR. WEINER: I have no objection. They just haven't tied it to

18 anything. No one has asked what is it, what is it for.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll just leave it. Maybe they will do that

20 in their defence case.

21 Very well. Can we have confirmation that it will retain the same

22 number?

23 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, Your Honours. Thank you.

24 MR. PANTELIC: May I proceed, Your Honours?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can proceed.

Page 8792

1 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Engineer Fitozovic, could you please go to the statement that you

3 gave --

4 MR. WEINER: I object to that. He has an associate's degree in

5 engineering. No one has said he's an engineer, and it's being used in a

6 very sarcastic manner. Why don't you just refer to him as Mr. Fitozovic?

7 MR. PANTELIC: No, no, no.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you wait for Mr. Weiner to finish, then you can

9 respond.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I apologise.

11 MR. WEINER: Just refer to him as Mr. Fitozovic, I think would be

12 the nicest.

13 MR. PANTELIC: My understanding was because he can give us the

14 answer. We are speaking about strictly technical terms. My

15 understanding, maybe it's a kind of [Interpretation] I will clarify that

16 immediately with the witness.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but can we refer to the witness as

18 Mr. Fitozovic, please.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I can.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: And don't use any other titles.

21 MR. PANTELIC: My understanding when we are talking about the

22 military issues, that it's proper to make him -- familiarity with these

23 issues, stuff like that. Now we are speaking about technical issues. But

24 I will refer in the future to this witness as Mr. Fitozovic.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

Page 8793

1 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I only have one question, sir. Is your title -- do you have the

3 title of an engineer?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you. Could you please go to the page in your statement that

6 ends in 82. I am going to read the portion of your statement. It's the

7 end of the second paragraph, and this is about the explosive found in your

8 house, and you said to the Prosecutor: "They asked my wife about the

9 weapons I had hid under the bed in the apartment. They found 25 kilos of

10 explosive. Altogether I had a hundred kilos of dynamite."

11 Is that what you said to the Prosecutor in 1995?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. But then I checked. When I was in The Hague, I called Sarajevo

15 and I contacted my wife and she told me that, in the apartment, the

16 explosives were not found, that only a rifle was found in the apartment.

17 Q. All right. But then on more than one occasion, you had explained

18 here where the explosives were, how much of it was found, and so on. I'm

19 reading a portion of the next paragraph. This is the second sentence:

20 "But I had planned to destroy only the power lines towards

21 Obudovac because I wanted to disrupt supply of electricity to the Serbs.

22 I never did finish this plan. I combined my knowledge of explosives that

23 I acquired during my training at the JNA with my expertise at my job."

24 Is that what you said to the Prosecutor?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8794

1 Q. Thank you. We could agree, Mr. Fitozovic, that you had planned,

2 by combining your military knowledge and your expertise knowledge, to

3 conduct terrorist activities on the -- in the municipality of Samac and to

4 destroy power lines and electricity supplies to the Serbs?

5 MR. WEINER: I object.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I was just waiting for the interpretation. Yes,

7 Mr. Weiner.

8 MR. WEINER: Objection. Conducting terrorist activities, there's

9 no evidence of that.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

11 Mr. Pantelic, you can rephrase your question.

12 MR. PANTELIC: I'm going to another topic, Your Honours.

13 Mr. Usher, please, I need your assistance.

14 There is a list here of the persons, made by volunteers or

15 citizens, made by this witness. Also, I have the original. I will tender

16 it to the witness to discuss that matter. For the benefit of my friends,

17 it's -- from Prosecution, it's a three-page document with the names of

18 persons, sort of armaments, stuff like that. ERN number is 00535996, and

19 there is -- accordingly, there is English translation, although this

20 document speaks for itself. But we could try to ...

21 Please, Mr. Usher.

22 I have the original, so maybe Mr. Usher can provide --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because --

24 MR. PANTELIC: In B/C/S language version is not so legible, so

25 maybe --

Page 8795

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's what I was about to say. The

2 photocopies we have are not so legible. If the original is available,

3 then the witness can look at that.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have an ID number for that document?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The registry.

6 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D35/1 for the English version and D35/1

7 ter, both ID. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, do you recognise this document?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. This document speaks for itself?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But you would agree that this is a list of certain people, and

15 then the second column is kind of weapon, and third column, I can't see

16 it. Could you please read out what the third is about?

17 A. Number, number of weapons.

18 Q. Number of weapons?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Fourth column is ammunition, amount of ammunition?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Fifth is some kind of a piece of equipment that is used for

23 automatic rifles?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And on page 3 are descriptions of the calibre of ammunition, and

Page 8796

1 also the quantity; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And this last column that can't be read in my version, but the

4 original must be better, it's something about MTS materiel and equipment;

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And these were hand-held rocket launchers, explosives, capsules,

8 and so on and so forth; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please explain in this last column under number 2, what

11 is PTM 6? What's PTM? What is that, under number 2? What's this

12 abbreviation?

13 A. Anti-tank grenade number 6.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Which page is that?

15 MR. PANTELIC: Number 3, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Page 3?

17 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. My mistake maybe.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Fitozovic, and number 3 in this RTS, what is

19 this? What does it say here, under number 3?

20 A. Booby trap number 2, anti-infantry -- anti-personnel mine. But

21 let me tell you something, sir. I am not lying, Mr. Pantelic, and this

22 document is a witness to that. During the direct examination, I said that

23 we had 50 automatic rifles, and from this document you can see, without

24 any doubt, that 48 rifles were handed out. I also said, when I testified

25 two or three days ago, that we also received certain number of materiel

Page 8797

1 and equipment. And when you combine all these things together with what

2 is shown here, this is proof that the numbers were correct. When Mr.

3 Pisarevic asked me --

4 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, I have to interrupt you.

5 A. Sir, this is the answer to your question. When Mr. Pisarevic

6 asked me --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, can you allow the witness to complete

8 his answer.

9 MR. PANTELIC: I can, but please don't take this time -- I really

10 kindly ask you, because I have some other documents to introduce, and

11 simply that's not my intention was to pose these questions, maybe in

12 re-direct. But I agree, he can explain, but I'm in problem with the time.

13 You can understand my position. Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will also answer the other

15 question you posed. Mr. Pisarevic, when he asked me, three or four days

16 ago, whether I had received means from Prud and so on, I said, "I'm not

17 sure," and the next day in my testimony, I stated that, "Yes, we received

18 from Prud," and this is precisely these two pieces and the four items. It

19 was a symbolic amount compared to what was to be found in the town and in

20 the surroundings of the town.

21 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. When was this document drafted, Mr. Fitozovic?

23 A. Well, it was immediately prior to the war.

24 Q. When?

25 A. Directly before the aggression, Mr. Pantelic. And this document

Page 8798

1 was also found during the looting of my apartment in Bosanski Samac.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: You can't -- Mr. Fitozovic, you can't remember even

3 the month?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was either in the month of March

5 or April. I believe it was the month of April.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

7 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. 1992?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, on the first page of this document, under item 4,

11 we have the name of Mesic Osman. He received from you a Zagi, a Zagi, an

12 automatic rifle; isn't it so?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Under number 7 --

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 MR. PANTELIC: I would like to go into private session because of

17 the name, next name that I will ....

18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we go into private session?

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 8799

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [Open session]

10 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. Can we proceed, Your Honours?

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So you distributed the weapons to the people on this list; isn't

14 it so?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In number 1, the name of Tihic Sulejman; isn't it so?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. He received a Kalashnikov?

19 A. Yes. He received a Kalashnikov. This had been withdrawn.

20 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, it is my task to pose questions in

21 cross-examination, and please give short and brief answers. Respect my

22 position. If I ask a simple question, please answer with a "yes" or a

23 "no." Don't elaborate on the topic.

24 A. Mr. Pantelic, don't be nervous vis-a-vis myself. I am not a

25 defendant. I've never killed, burned, I didn't evict, I didn't perform

Page 8800

1 genocide, and please lower your tone.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Fitozovic, can you just answer questions put to

3 you by counsel. He's going by what is on this document, that's all.

4 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In the column "ammunition," 115, what is 115?

6 A. It means 115 bullets. That is the answer.

7 Q. In the column "clip, magazine," what is that, 4?

8 A. It means 4 clips.

9 Q. Mr. Tihic Sulejman was the president of the town board of SDA;

10 isn't it so?

11 A. Yes. He was also a member of the Territorial Defence.

12 Q. But according to you, he was not in the military. Did he train,

13 exercise for that?

14 A. I said that these weapons were then withdrawn. But you can have

15 people also within the TO, people for questions of morale, of political

16 security, and so on.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Fitozovic. Could you explain what

18 you mean when you say, "These weapons were withdrawn"? What do you mean

19 by the word "withdrawn"?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This means that this weapon were

21 withdrawn, taken, from Mr. Tihic. And if you look at the next page,

22 number 37, you will see it was given to Tiric Serif, and you can see this

23 quite clearly from the document.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Can I proceed? Yes.

Page 8801

1 Q. [Interpretation] On number 40, on the next page, Mr. Fitozovic,

2 what's that?

3 A. This means SDA.

4 Q. What does that mean?

5 A. It means that the person who was on duty in SDA, who was on duty

6 and on guard, physically securing this facility, he was equipped with this

7 Zagi.

8 Q. On this list, the people who were issued weapons, do we find

9 amongst them also Serbs?

10 A. On this list, there are no Serbs who had been issued weapons, but

11 you will find them on the other list, the other list which was to be found

12 in the Territorial Defence.

13 Q. Are there any Croats on this list?

14 A. No. On this list, there are no persons of Croat ethnicity.

15 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ... That we could

16 have exhibit number for this document, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think I got what you wanted to say, because

18 you overlapped when the witness was speaking. What is your request?

19 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry, Your Honours. I would kindly ask to tender

20 this document into evidence, to have an exhibit number.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the Prosecution?

22 MR. WEINER: None at all.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we have confirmation of the exhibit

24 number?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will remain D35/1 and D35/1

Page 8802

1 ter as exhibits. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The only thing I wanted to ask

3 Mr. Pantelic with this document is --

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: It appears that the Translation Unit was given a

6 photocopy.

7 MR. PANTELIC: A photocopy, I think, yes.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because the English version appears to have so

9 many question marks, illegible, and yet the witness was able to read

10 through. So the original will be kept by the registry.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, of course, as an exhibit.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I think for the sake of the record being clear, I

13 would ask the registry that they have a translation of the original, that

14 we don't have these problems where the English version appears not to be

15 clear, whereas the original document is quite clear. Is that possible?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. I'll make a copy of the

17 original and request for translation.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. Any more questions?

21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Just allow me, Your Honour. Do we have a

22 number for this document, or I ...

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. D35/1, the same numbers as ID, but now as

24 exhibits.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Now, Your Honours, I have a kind of receipt with a

Page 8803

1 specification of the -- my understanding, it's financial remuneration for

2 the - I don't know - engagement in some squads. I don't know. This

3 witness maybe can clarify that.

4 You can this original provide to the Prosecution. It's one

5 document with front and back.

6 Could we have the ID number, please, in the meantime?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 THE REGISTRAR: It is D36/1 ter ID, Your Honours.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Okay.

10 [Interpretation] You can place this on the ELMO.

11 Q. And Mr. Fitozovic, take the original. Explain to us: What is

12 this document?

13 A. This document speaks of the remunerations on duty from the 3rd of

14 March to the 3rd of July, and, on the other side, from the 8th of March to

15 the 13th of March, 1992.

16 Q. When was this document produced, Mr. Fitozovic?

17 A. On the 3rd of March, 1992.

18 Q. It was you who produced it?

19 A. Yes, obviously. And again, it was found when my apartment had

20 been looted in Bosanski Samac.

21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

23 MR. WEINER: I think there's a transcript mistake on line 92, 2,

24 from the 3rd of March. It should read from the 3rd of March to the 7th of

25 March, and then on the other side from the 8th of March to the 13th of

Page 8804

1 March. I think there's a mistake in translation. The 3rd of July is --

2 if you look at the dates at the top --

3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, that's correct.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we can go through that again.

5 MR. WEINER: There's a mistake there.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Okay.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Fitozovic, on the first page, the date is from

8 the 3rd to the 7th of March, 1992; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And on the second page, we have from the 8th to the 13th of March,

11 1992; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pantelic.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Oh, no. I think I've figured it out. The copies

16 we've been given, we have page 2 and then page 1. So I see it's been put

17 back to front.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think it's the stapling.

19 MR. PANTELIC: That's a problem with the stapling.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.

21 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, what we are seeing here on the screen, this is the

23 list of a certain number of people who were remunerated, and in currency,

24 was this paid out?

25 A. It was in dinars, and these were really symbolic amounts.

Page 8805

1 Q. And on the other side, it is also in dinars, amounts in dinars?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Very well, Mr. Fitozovic. We answered with these documents -- [In

4 English] [Previous translation continues] ... from the Prosecution?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner?

6 MR. WEINER: I have no objection.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have confirmation of the numbers?

8 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D36/1 ter ID, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Without an ID. I thought we are now having them as

10 exhibits.

11 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise. Yes, D36/1 ter. Then I remove the

12 ter. I treat it just as an exhibit, without the B/C/S reference.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because we only have it as it is, as a receipt,

14 yes.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: And the original will be kept by the registry.

17 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, in connection with this document, it says: "On

19 duty from the 3rd of March to the 7th of March." In the second group, the

20 column, there's specification, and what does it say?

21 A. It means unloading of weapons, and it refers to the unloading of

22 weapons in the Sarajevo brewery, Sarajevska Pivara, which we've already

23 discussed.

24 Q. Now if you glance through the document, you'll see there are no

25 Serbs and no Croats.

Page 8806

1 A. No, there are not.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, please. I need your assistance. You

3 can take these documents. I have another one to introduce.

4 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, since we're going to go into tomorrow on

5 the cross-examination, I need five minutes on an administrative matter, or

6 can we stay extra or an administrative matter relating to a witness?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: You need -- you want us to rise five minutes

8 earlier.

9 MR. WEINER: Five minutes so I can discuss an administrative

10 matter. We're going over tomorrow anyway into cross-examination. So if I

11 could address an administrative witness matter.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

13 Yes, Mr. Pantelic. We can go on for five minutes more, I think.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. The next document is the certificate issued

15 by municipal Crisis Staff of Slavonski Brod, dated 29th, I think,

16 December, 1991, authorising this witness to freely have access and cross

17 the bridge over the Sava.

18 [Interpretation] The original is with you, and it's being

19 translated [sic].

20 Q. Would you please read the heading of this document.

21 A. "Republic of Croatia, Crisis Staff, municipality of Slavonski

22 Brod, Class 022-05/91-01/449, UR number 2178-03-06/91-1, Slavonski Brod,

23 29th of December, 1991."

24 Q. And tell us the title.

25 A. The Crisis Staff in Slavonski Brod is issuing a certificate. It's

Page 8807

1 confirmed that Alija Fitozovic, from B. Samac, can cross over the Sava

2 Most in Slavonski Brod in order to be able to work. And it enables the

3 crossing over the Sava bridge, the checkpoint over the bridge Slavonski

4 Brod and Samac.

5 Q. My understanding is that this is Slavonski Brod and Slavonski

6 Samac. And by whom was it signed?

7 A. President of the Crisis Staff, Piplovic, engineer Piplovic.

8 Q. You were employed at the time, weren't you?

9 A. Regrettably, no. And in my statement and in my testimony, I said

10 that I was dismissed on the 24th of December, 1991, and this is a later

11 certificate. And it refers to the crossing to the territory of Republic

12 of Croatia in order to be able to go to work. And this certificate was

13 issued by the Crisis Staff of Slavonski Brod, because they were the

14 competent authorities for issuing such certificates also to other

15 inhabitants, other citizens crossing the river Sava. And it's clear that

16 I went to work to Slavonski Samac, to Croatia, and this is what transpires

17 from this document.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you wait, Mr. Pantelic?

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the ID number first, before we forget.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe we can have exhibit number immediately, if

22 there's no objection from the Prosecution side.

23 MR. WEINER: The only thing: Has this been sent for translation?

24 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: So we shall have it as an ID.

Page 8808

1 MR. WEINER: I have no objection to an exhibit number.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: To have it admitted into evidence? All right. So

3 we'll just wait for the English translation. Can we have a number,

4 please, as an exhibit.

5 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D37/1 ter, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, I think we can stop here. Mr. Weiner

7 indicated that he wanted to raise something administrative. And I think

8 the witness can be led out of the courtroom. We will continue tomorrow at

9 9.00.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: The reason is, we have to vacate the courtroom on

12 time to allow the afternoon session to start on time.

13 MR. PANTELIC: I understand, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

15 Mr. Weiner?

16 MR. WEINER: Yes. Your Honour, I'd like to make a motion to

17 substitute a witness. I haven't filed it in writing. If you want, I

18 could file it tomorrow. But what we'd like to do is substitute a witness,

19 Kemal Bobic, for Esad Cosic. Bobic was witness 39 on the confidential

20 65 ter list. He was removed at the initiation of the Prosecution from the

21 witness list when the pre-trial Chamber asked the Prosecution to consider

22 removing some potentially repetitive witnesses. The Prosecution offered

23 to remove him as his wife Adiba Bobic is also to testify and give certain

24 personal, financial information, evidence concerning the health problems

25 that the witness was experiencing. So it was considered that his wife

Page 8809

1 could testify to much of this situation.

2 The circumstances are now that, since the trial has begun, the

3 Prosecution has removed seven additional witnesses. When the Chamber

4 asked us to consider our list, we withdrew four: Witness F,

5 Muhamed Jasarevic, Sead Mujkanovic, Zvonko Susak. We've recently

6 withdrawn Omer Nalic, Ibro Taletovic, and Stipo Cerninski. We would also

7 propose to remove one further witness, Esad Cosic. The reason is that he

8 currently lives in the United States. He's recently gone through bypass

9 surgery, coronary bypass surgery, and we would have to set up a videolink

10 through the United States. And the problem is we're already setting up

11 two videolinks, one in Bosnia, one in the United States, for

12 Hasan Subasic, who was just in an accident, and we've had two witnesses

13 here with heart problems and we've seen what can happen with witnesses

14 with heart problems.

15 Mr. Bobic, like Mr. Cosic, were both members of the SDA board. He

16 was in Bosanski Samac, or they were both in Bosanski Samac on the 17th of

17 April. They were later detained. They both ended up in Batkovici

18 together. They can both testify to the same acts of the three defendants.

19 We've spoken to Kemal Bobic. He's ready and willing to testify as a 92

20 bis witness. We've received a statement from his wife to testify as a 92

21 bis witness. She would be much more comfortable, instead of coming alone,

22 coming with her husband. They don't want to bring two people over if one

23 of them is not a witness. This way it would facilitate the registry and

24 the Victims and Witnesses Unit by getting the two of them here. We could

25 then avoid using Esad Cosic and having pretty much Kemal Bobic testify to

Page 8810

1 the same information.

2 As I said, I haven't put it in writing. If you want, I'll file

3 the affidavit and put it in writing for tomorrow. But I've spoken to

4 Defence last week and made them aware of our request.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. It may not be necessary to put it in

6 writing. We'll wait for the Defence to indicate their response tomorrow.

7 The Court will rise and continue tomorrow in the morning at 0900

8 hours.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of

11 June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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