1 Thursday, 4 July 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo
10 JUDGE MUMBA: The proceedings are continuing under Rule 15 bis.
11 It's cross-examination, isn't it?
12 Ms. Reidy, you wanted to say something?
13 MS. REIDY: Yes. If I just may, Your Honours. I have received
14 back the revised translation of P130 ID. That is with the stamp that was
15 on it now fully translated, and I just may suggest that perhaps we would
16 enter is this into evidence and give an exhibit number so that if it is
17 raised in cross, that we are actually using the final version. And I've
18 given the version with the stamp translated to Defence counsel this
19 morning, and I've left copies for the Bench and the Registry, with the
20 Registry officer this morning.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Is there any objection now that it's
22 translated? I see none.
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, we don't have any objection.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have it -- can we have the formal
25 number, please.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Certainly, Your Honours. It's P130 and P130 ter.
2 Thank you.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. If it pleases, before my
5 colleague Mr. Krgovic continues his cross-examination, I, on behalf of all
6 Defence counsel, have to draw the attention of the Trial Chamber to one
7 issue. Yesterday we were informed by our colleagues from the Prosecution
8 that there will be some changes in order of appearance of some witnesses.
9 Actually, we are expecting, according to their order, to the order that
10 they gave us of appearance, that after this witness, Witness Bobic, Edina
11 and witness Bobic, Kemal will testify before this Tribunal. Then
12 yesterday they informed us that there are some changes and that after this
13 witness there is Witness A, who will give his testimony, and they expect
14 it to be on Monday. What I would like to inform the Trial Chamber is that
15 we still have not received the B/C/S version of his statement according to
16 Rule 92 bis. Speaking now about all the possibilities and all the issues
17 that this raises, we do believe that if they give us tomorrow, so it means
18 on Friday, the B/C/S version, and since we cannot contact with our clients
19 and get necessary instructions, because the Detention Unit is not working
20 on Saturday and Sunday, I believe that we will not be ready for this
21 witness, actually, that we will not have enough time according to Rule 21
22 of the Statute of the Tribunal. So I would like just to draw the
23 attention of the Trial Chamber that we do not have B/C/S version so we can
24 get instructions from our clients. I mean, we did some draft translation,
25 but it is not good enough for our clients to give instructions to us
1 regarding Witness A.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy. What is the position?
3 MS. REIDY: The position, Your Honours, is that the Defence is
4 correct insofar as they don't have a B/C/S version. They have had for a
5 number of weeks the English version. It's a very, very long statement.
6 It was sent -- we got it translated, and it needed to be revised before it
7 was disclosed, so that the Defence wouldn't have a poor quality
8 translation. And that revision process is not finished of the B/C/S
9 version because the statement is of some length. So although they've had
10 the English version for a number of weeks, if the lack of a B/C/S version
11 is problematic to the Defence, then we would simply call Witness A viva
12 voce when he arrives. I don't think that we have any alternative. We
13 will get the translation to them as soon as we have it, but it has been
14 taking a long time because of the length of the statement, and as I said,
15 we needed to revise it to ensure the quality was of sufficient standard
16 that we wouldn't get complaints from Defence counsel.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, further to what
19 Ms. Reidy said, it is not disputed that we received the English version,
20 the English draft versions, and we talked about that with our clients and
21 went over that when we visited them in the Detention Unit, but our clients
22 do wish to have B/C/S draft versions with them so that they can, during
23 their free time, go over those statements. I think it's a fundamental
24 right of every accused to have those statements, and it is also the
25 obligation of the other side to provide everything to the accused in the
1 language that the accused understands. Our clients should be able to have
2 that statement and be able to use it in his spare time. That's the main
3 problem that we have with this.
4 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, I'm not denying counsel rights to
5 request a B/C/S version. I'm simply stating that in the time frame, with
6 the length of the document, it's not been possible, and once we have it
7 available, once it becomes in any form ready to disclose, we'll disclose
8 it. We're not with holding it. It's just with the length of the
9 statement, it's taken that long time to be translated.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll see. Let's proceed with the
11 cross-examination in the meantime.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, as I'm taking the Witness
13 A, I need to know how I'm going to deal with him, because, of course, if
14 I -- if he's going to be done in the usual manner, viva voce, in order to
15 simply save time, then I'll prepare accordingly, and if not, I won't. So
16 now, he's coming in I think on Friday, and I'm seeing him on the weekend,
17 so I would like to know -- not necessarily now, of course --
18 JUDGE MUMBA: But at a stage in the proceedings.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: But at some stage --
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we rise.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Before we rise, and perhaps if possible today, if
22 not, tomorrow, so that I can prepare accordingly.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber will deal with that at a
24 later stage.
25 Let's continue with the cross-examination.
1 WITNESS: OSMAN JASAREVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jasarevic.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. In your statement, in paragraph 31 --
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Or rather, could the statement be
8 given to the witness, please, the B/C/S version, please.
9 Q. You said that on the 16th of April you moved your family to
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Further on, you said that you observed that Serb families moved
13 their children out of town. Is that right?
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. Do you know that Muslims and Croats also moved their families out
16 of Bosanski Samac?
17 A. The Muslims did not.
18 Q. Sir, do you know Sulejman Tihic?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Do you know that he moved his family out of Bosanski Samac before
21 April 16th?
22 A. I don't know that. I know that his brother remained.
23 Q. Sir, do you know Izet Izetbegovic?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Do you know that he moved his son out of Bosanski Samac? Yes or
1 no, please.
2 A. His son left after the incident that took place before the 16th.
3 Q. Sulejman Tihic and Izet Izetbegovic are high officials of the SDA
4 party in Bosanski Samac, aren't they?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And both of them are Muslims, aren't they?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know the Bicic brothers, Muhamed and Hasan?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Do you know that they moved their families out of Bosanski Samac
11 before the 16th of April, 1992?
12 A. I don't know that.
13 Q. Do you know Dragan Lukac?
14 A. By sight.
15 Q. Do you know that he also moved his family out of Bosanski Samac?
16 A. No, I don't know that.
17 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, based on your testimony, I concluded that your
18 wife, upon leaving Bosanski Samac on the 16th of April, returned to
19 Bosanski Samac later on, didn't she?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When was that?
22 A. After nine days, when I was arrested.
23 Q. So she came back normally from Gradacac?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And she entered Bosanski Samac without any hindrance?
1 A. Yes, she did, but she couldn't leave afterwards.
2 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, I will put some questions to you regarding your
3 exchange. That's paragraph 118, 119, and 120. You were exchanged on the
4 26th of May, 1992, weren't you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That was the first exchange between Bosanski Samac and Orasje,
7 wasn't it?
8 A. Yes, the first exchange.
9 Q. In paragraph 120, you stated, and I will read these two sentences
10 to you:
11 "We were put on a truck and brought to Zasavica. There were Serbs
12 there who were exchanged for us. It was organised by the ICRC."
13 Is it correct, this what I just read to you out from your
15 A. Yes, that's correct. The Serbs were not on that side. They were
16 all around.
17 Q. But this part here, where it says that it was all organised by the
18 ICRC, is that right?
19 A. Yes, it was the ICRC.
20 Q. All right. We'll look at your exchange in a chronological order,
21 and I'll put some questions to you so that we can explain this entire
22 procedure to the Trial Chamber in some more detail.
23 In paragraph 119, you explained how the ICRC took statements from
24 you at the elementary school.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell us when did this take place? On the day you were
2 exchanged or on the day when you were transferred from the elementary
3 school to the secondary school?
4 A. It was on the day of the exchange.
5 Q. You were called to give a statement on behalf of the
6 representatives of the ICRC?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. A lady --
9 JUDGE MUMBA:
10 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me for interrupting, but just for the
11 clarification of the transcript, on page 7 -- it escaped me already, but
12 you said -- in any event, you said that this was the first exchange
13 between Bosanski Samac and Orasje. That can't be true. He went to Odzak.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's right. He went
15 to Odzak, but the exchange was between the municipality of Orasje and
16 municipality of Bosanski Samac. The commission was in Orasje, but the
17 municipality is that of Odzak. So it was the municipality of Odzak, and
18 the commission was from Odzak. I am correcting myself here. So the
19 exchange was between the Serb and the Croatian side.
20 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Yes.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, there was a woman there, a foreigner, and a man,
23 who was also a foreigner?
24 A. Yes, but the interpreter was not a foreigner.
25 Q. This lady, if you remember, was called Katherine.
1 A. I don't know what she was called.
2 Q. She asked you whether you wanted to be exchanged?
3 A. The interpreter asked me. I don't know the name of the
5 Q. But she gave instructions to the interpreter?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you gave your statement by the table at the elementary
8 school, in the hallway, there were no local Serbs present there, were
10 A. Well, the interpreter was a Serb.
11 Q. Well, I'm referring to local Serbs. There were no local Serbs
12 from Bosanski Samac?
13 A. There were guards some one metre away from me.
14 Q. And you gave all the information that they required?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And they recorded that information?
17 A. Yes. This is how I was registered with the ICRC.
18 Q. On that day, you were taken on the trucks to the location of the
20 A. Yes. Before that, I was told that I had to accept to be exchanged
21 or else I would be killed.
22 Q. And you were told this by Stiv Todorovic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know that this was an exchange 100 people on one side to be
25 exchanged for 100 people on the other side?
1 A. Yes. I learned that later.
2 Q. So 100 people were taken to the exchange location?
3 A. Yes, that's right. I was in the last truck.
4 Q. That same woman was the first one to cross across the River Bosna
5 in a boat?
6 A. They were already on the other side.
7 Q. This lady --
8 A. No. Somebody else was on the other side, because the lady
9 remained on this side while we were crossing.
10 Q. And she was there the entire time?
11 A. Yes, the entire time.
12 Q. You stood by the truck?
13 A. No. We were on the truck. We were not allowed to get off the
15 Q. Do you know that there were members of the army and snipers on the
16 other side, on the Croatian side?
17 A. No, I don't know that, but I saw them on this side. I could see
18 clearly from the truck that they were lying down with snipers and
19 machine-guns, all around us.
20 Q. So you were on the trucks and not far from the trucks was a table,
21 where the representative of the ICRC sat?
22 A. Well, the table was some distance away.
23 Q. How far was the table from the truck?
24 A. Well, some 100 or 200 metres. I'm not sure.
25 Q. And nobody was allowed to approach the table until his or her name
1 was called out?
2 A. Yes, that's right. Miroslav Tadic had to call your name, and then
3 you were allowed to get off the truck, and we went in groups of five.
4 Q. So you went in groups of five or six, approached the table, and
5 then once again gave a statement to the representative of the ICRC as to
6 whether you wanted to be exchanged or not?
7 A. No, I didn't follow that procedure. I went straight to the boat,
8 because prior to that I had already stated that I wanted to be exchanged.
9 Q. And did you hear -- did you see other people approaching the table
10 and giving their statements?
11 A. I was the last one to be exchanged, and none of the five of us
12 went to give another statement about the exchange.
13 Q. And did you see --
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you're over lapping. The interpreter is
15 overworked. You're overlapping. So please do pause.
16 And the witness should also pause after listening to the question.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, I would kindly ask you to wait for me to finish my
19 question, then wait another two seconds, and then give your answer, so
20 that we do not overlap, for the benefit of the interpreters.
21 Did you see anybody from previous groups remaining by the table?
22 A. No, I didn't see that. All I cared about is getting on the boat.
23 Q. So you wanted to get on the boat as soon as possible?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, my client claims that on that occasion, ten of your
1 co-citizens, fellow citizens, did not want to cross to the Croatian side.
2 A. I already said in my statement that the exchange was discontinued
3 for some time. At the time, I didn't know why it was so, but I had heard
4 that if somebody was to give up, then the exchange would be completely
6 Q. My question was whether you saw that ten of your fellow citizens
7 did not cross to the other side and that they said to the representative
8 of the ICRC that they do not want to be exchanged and go to the other
10 A. No, I didn't see that.
11 Q. In paragraph 117, you said that you knew most of the Croats who
12 were in the so-called isolation. Did you say that?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
15 introduce a document now. It is a list for exchange on the 25th of May,
16 1992, the exchange in which this witness participated and was exchanged.
17 I have an English translation as well here.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
19 MS. REIDY: Excuse me. Could --
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
21 MS. REIDY: -- the Prosecution be given a copy? We were given a
22 number of documents which were intended to be introduced, so I don't know
23 which one of them is now being put into evidence. But you've given me a
24 number of documents, Mr. Lukic, and they're all lists.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It was given to the case manager
2 MS. REIDY: Yes, one of several documents, which is just what I'm
3 trying to say.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can you just look at it.
5 MS. REIDY: Thank you. That's all I wanted to do.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Your microphone.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes. Can you put on the ELMO for our client.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, do you see your name on this list? Please
10 look at number 3.
11 A. Yes, I see that.
12 Q. You said, sir, that you were the only Muslim that was exchanged on
13 that day. Can you please read the name under number 1.
14 A. I said that I was the only Muslim from Bosanski Samac
15 municipality. Salkanovic, Kemo under number 1 is not from Bosanski Samac.
16 He is not from our municipality. He was brought there on the day of the
18 Q. He's a Muslim, isn't he?
19 A. He is.
20 Q. Sir, please read the name under number 35. Can you tell us the
21 name of that person, item 35?
22 A. 35?
23 Q. Yes, 35.
24 A. Blaskic, Ilija.
25 Q. He didn't cross to the other side?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. What does it say by his name?
3 A. I can't see very well.
4 Q. It says here "refused."
5 A. Yes, "refused." I don't know about this.
6 Q. Did you know this man?
7 A. I did not.
8 Q. Please read the name under number 65.
9 A. Petric Marko, "refused." That's what it says.
10 Q. So he didn't cross to the other side?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Did you know him?
13 A. I did not. I couldn't have known everybody in the entire
15 Q. Please take a look at number 77 on the second page. Please read
16 the name.
17 A. Barisic Ivo, "refused." There's no date of his A, concerning his
18 age. He's an older person.
19 Q. So he didn't cross?
20 A. I don't know whether he crossed or not.
21 Q. Please read under number 24. What is the name of that person?
22 A. Petric Ivo.
23 Q. Do you know that he didn't cross?
24 A. I didn't know -- I don't know who crossed and did not.
25 Q. 36?
1 A. I don't know all these people. They're old.
2 Q. How did you know?
3 A. I saw in isolation that they were all old people. I only knew
4 some people. Most of these people were old, 60, 70, and more.
5 Q. Did you see whether all elderly people crossed or not?
6 A. I already said that I didn't see whether everybody had crossed or
8 Q. Please read out number 39, the name of the person?
9 A. Pejic Tadija.
10 Q. He didn't cross?
11 A. No, he didn't.
12 Q. Number 49.
13 A. Petric Andrija.
14 Q. A person worked as a telephone operator at the post office. Do
15 you know he didn't cross?
16 A. I didn't know.
17 Q. Number 55, please read the name.
18 A. Stazic Ilija.
19 Q. Do you know he didn't cross?
20 A. I didn't know.
21 Q. Number 56, what is the name of that person?
22 A. Cvitkusic Simo.
23 Q. Do you know that he didn't cross over?
24 A. No, I don't know that.
25 Q. Please turn to the next page, number 96. What is the name of that
2 A. Pranjic Stjepan.
3 Q. Do you know that he didn't cross?
4 A. No, I do not know.
5 Q. Let me just ask: This list which was read out by Miroslav Tadic,
6 in front of the truck, is that a list of people who earlier applied for
7 the exchange?
8 A. I don't know who applied earlier.
9 Q. I said earlier in the secondary school.
10 A. I did not know.
11 Q. Did you speak with the people on the truck, whether they applied
12 for the exchange in the secondary school?
13 A. I didn't have contact with others earlier. I was shut up in a
14 classroom, and only in the -- then in the gym, I saw the people in the
15 secondary school.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would submit this list as
18 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?
19 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I do have a number of
20 problems with this document. Unlike a lot of the lists of persons for
21 exchange, this particular one bears no signature, no stamp, nothing that
22 indicates who drew up this list, or in fact that it's ever anything more
23 than a draft or anything like that. There are then a number of
24 annotations on it, and, in particular, Defence counsel has, I can tell
25 from this line of questioning, been suggesting that there are certain
1 annotations against, for example, I think, number 39. Now, there is
2 something very, very faded on the copy that I have beside 39 but on the
3 translation you can see there's nothing translated in the English version
4 against 39, and that goes for a number of allegations that the counsel has
5 put to the witness. Now, the witness has not been able to provide -- I
6 didn't interrupt because I wanted to see if the witness could help provide
7 personal knowledge about this, and he said on every occasion, "I didn't
8 know this person. I don't know if they crossed or not. I don't know
9 whether they crossed." So he's not been able to corroborate anything that
10 Defence counsel has put to him. So I let it go to the end to see if we
11 could get any idea of whether or not this was a genuine list from the time
12 or whether those annotations mean anything, but I'm afraid that I don't
13 know, for example, if the handwriting in the corner, the one that says
14 "exchanged," could mean that everybody on this list was exchanged. So
15 without that sense, any sort of, I would say, reliability of the document
16 in the absence of a stamp or a signature that we would ask it only to be
17 ID at the moment because this witness has not been able to help us with
18 any of the allegations put.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Ms. Reidy.
20 Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] First of all, the witness recognised
22 himself and the first person on the list. So this is as far as the
23 recognition goes. Secondly, the document hasn't a seal and a signature
24 because the commission didn't exist yet, and it was organised by the
25 International Red Cross, which was also confirmed by the witness.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: You see now the problem you're having, counsel.
2 You're now giving evidence on the matters raised by the Prosecution, and
3 what you should do is actually call evidence, yes? Because the Trial
4 Chamber does agree with the position of the Prosecution that this document
5 cannot be admitted through this witness.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, earlier the same
7 documents --
8 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... the
9 explanations you are giving are supposed to come through as evidence.
10 It's true that the only -- the witness has identified his own name as
11 being on the list, but that's all.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would propose this submitted as
13 evidence, and also for the ID. He has -- the witness -- I would only
14 enter this evidence for identification of the document, and later on we
15 will prove the line of this document.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It will be marked for identification only.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be D69/3 ID and D69/3
18 ter ID. Thank you.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to return this list to
20 the witness because I intend to raise a few more questions in connection
21 with the list with the witness.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, you can place the list in front of you. It doesn't
25 have to be on the ELMO. Look at this list. Except for you and Salkanovic
1 Kemo do you know anybody else from the list? I'm asking this because you
2 said when you were moved to the secondary school, that you knew most of
3 the Croats.
4 A. I knew most of those who were in the gym room.
5 Q. Do you know any of these: Barukcic Nikola? Did he cross over?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Agatic Pero, did he cross over?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Prcic Zeljko?
10 A. I knew his father.
11 Q. Did he cross over?
12 A. He -- yes.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: [Previous translation continues] ...
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation].
15 Q. Mrvelj Juraj?
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Could we have the number so we can see where in the
18 document the names are? Because each name has a number next to it. Makes
19 it a lot easier
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. It makes it easier. Mr. Krgovic, you call
21 out the numbers.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, we will have to begin from the beginning. So
24 please read out the number, then the name, and say whether the person went
25 with in the exchange. Number 2?
1 A. Petric Zeljko.
2 Q. The son of Simo. He went across?
3 A. Yes. Number 4, Agatic Pero. He crossed over with me. Barukcic
4 Nikola, number 5 -- Number 5, Barukcic Nikola, he also crossed over.
5 Number 8, Mrvelj Juraj. He also crossed. 11 and 12 Loncaric Andrija and
6 Loncaric Petar. They also crossed over. Number 16, Pandurevic Bono. He
7 also crossed over. Number 43, Sinkovic Ivo. He also crossed over and I
8 knew him. Number 58, Mikic Ivo. He also crossed over. Brasnic Ivo,
9 number 63. He also crossed over. Number 68, Kljajic Pavo. He also
10 crossed over.
11 MS. REIDY: Excuse me, Mr. Jasarevic. Could I just clarify one
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
14 MS. REIDY: The last name you mentioned, just for the record, I
15 think it's going to be confusing. You mentioned a Mr. Pavo Kljajic, I
16 think, and you said -- or at least the transcript says it's number 68. On
17 the document I'm looking at, it's at number 67. Is that correct? That's
18 the man you're talking about, number 67, not 68?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 67, Kljajic Pavo.
20 And this is approximately the people I knew who crossed over. I
21 knew them mostly by sight than more personally.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasarevic. Mr. Jasarevic, this exchange succeeded,
24 didn't it?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
2 another document. That is a list of persons which came from the opposite
3 side, namely, from the Croatian side. I also have an English translation
4 of this document. The document has been disclosed to the Prosecution.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, I was just wondering, because you said
6 that this document was from the Croatian side. What would this witness
7 know about it?
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It's not a document from the
9 Croatian side. It's a list of the people who came from the Croatian side,
10 whether he knows any of them, what they looked like, the age.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. Okay.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, you, as the last one to go in that group of five,
14 you had the opportunity of seeing people who crossed over?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There were people on stretchers?
17 A. Yes, on stretchers, on both sides.
18 Q. Look at the people and their age. Here we have mainly elderly
20 A. We didn't have the age of these people on the list.
21 Q. Here we have people who are 1918, 1912, 1915.
22 A. That is what is written here.
23 Q. Was this the age structure of the people who came over from the
24 other side?
25 A. Probably.
1 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, do you remember -- do you recall that in the
2 vehicles which were taking you to Odzak - it means the bus - that there
3 was a few Serbs who were not allowed to cross over?
4 A. I do not know that.
5 Q. But did you find out later that a number of Serbs were not allowed
6 to cross over because a number of Croats did not cross over to the other
8 A. I didn't know anything about that.
9 Q. Let us go to the next page. Which is the last number here?
10 A. 96.
11 Q. Look at the list. Do you know any of these people who crossed
12 over from the other side? Did you recognise any of them? Did you know
13 any of these people from the municipality of Odzak? They were mainly from
15 A. Well, if they worked with me, but here it's hard to say by the
16 names. I don't know.
17 Q. All these names of places written next, are all these places in
18 the municipality of Odzak?
19 A. Yes, they are.
20 Q. Look at this list and see if you can -- if you know any of these
22 A. I don't know these people from the other municipality. Only a
23 relatively small number of them worked in Bosanski Samac.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] We've ended with this document, and
25 Your Honours, I wish to tender this document for evidence.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy?
2 MS. REIDY: Well, Your Honour, I can see this document bears a
3 signature, although we don't know who of, so I have less concerns about
4 it. Again, I just have doubts about any probative value of it since the
5 witness has not been able to identify someone from the list or comment
6 upon it. So I think it is of little probative value. But it has a
7 signature, so the Bench thinks it's worth admitting, it could be admitted,
8 as I said, but we think it is of little probative value.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The question will be how much weight to be
10 attached to it.
11 Can we have it marked as an exhibit?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be D70/3 ter and
13 D70/3. Thank you.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, only a few more questions concerning your
16 exchange. In paragraph 118, you stated: "I found out that my colleague,
17 a Croat, that he asked that my name be put on the list for exchange when
18 the list was finalised." That was in Slavonski Brod. Tell me: Where is
19 Slavonski Brod?
20 A. In Croatia.
21 Q. What does it mean that "where the list was finalised"? What does
22 that mean?
23 A. That is where the representative of ICRC were located, namely, in
24 Slavonski Brod.
25 Q. And you heard that you were placed there on the list?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that you were being sought?
3 A. I didn't know that I was being sought out. I didn't even know
4 that anybody was looking for me and making this request.
5 Q. Do you know to whom your relative turned on the Croatian side?
6 A. I do not know.
7 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, I will ask you a few questions concerning the
8 exchange of your wife. Your wife was exchanged on the 5th of November,
9 1992; isn't it so?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. She was exchanged with Jelena Kapetanovic, wasn't she?
12 A. I do not know. My wife even didn't know Jelena Kapetanovic, at
13 least not well.
14 Q. Do you know that she was exchanged with her?
15 A. No. It was -- the bus was full. They were packed. I was only
16 looking whether to see -- I can see my wife and children. I didn't look
17 at others.
18 Q. The question is whether you know that she was exchanged with
19 Jelena Kapetanovic.
20 A. I don't know when Jelena Kapetanovic was exchanged.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness has already answered that question, and
22 he's being asked again, so I was wondering why. Because he has already
23 given the answer.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to ask whether
25 he knows, whether he claims that she was not exchanged with Jelena
1 Kapetanovic or that he doesn't know about the fact. However, in the last
2 answer, he answered the question.
3 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, your wife certainly told you about her life in
4 Samac and her attempt for the exchange.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And certainly at the crossover in Dragalici, the UN asked her
7 whether she wanted to cross over to the other side.
8 A. I didn't ask that, but I know that she wanted to cross over to the
9 other side, where I am.
10 Q. In order to reunite?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the exchange took place in Dragalici?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. As you know, you insisted with the commissions in Croatia that
15 from your exchange, up to the exchange of your wife, during those five
16 months, a number of exchanges took place?
17 A. Yes, I know.
18 Q. And you also said that your mother-in-law left with the same --
19 last -- in one of the last exchanges.
20 A. Yes, one of the last exchanges in 1993, from Zasavica.
21 Q. Will you agree if I say that that was on the 24th of December,
22 1993, for Catholic Christmas?
23 A. I do not know. As I said, my mother-in-law -- I believe it was
24 the last exchange. An elderly woman, 70-odd years, from Zasavica --
25 Zasavica camp. She was transferred. Nobody asked where she will be
2 Q. From the exchange of your wife to the exchange of your
3 mother-in-law, there were at least some ten exchanges?
4 A. I don't know how many exchanges took place.
5 Q. However, your wife was among the first exchanges?
6 A. After seven months.
7 Q. Well, let me count the months. You left on the 26th of April,
9 A. My wife -- it's in my statement -- came after the -- seven months
10 after my exchange.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 26th of May, and not 26th of April.
12 That is a correction for the transcript.
13 Q. And you were exchanged -- namely, she was exchanged on the 5th of
14 November, wasn't she?
15 A. Seven months later.
16 Q. It means June, July, August, September, October, November?
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, I'm wondering why you are going round
18 and round these dates of exchange, the months. There's no dispute. The
19 witness has given the evidence on all these. Why are we going round and
20 round to see how many months after and all that? That can be calculated.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness said that
22 between his exchange and that of his wife, seven months passed, which is
23 not true, because it was only five months that passed. And the aim of my
24 cross-examination is to establish with the witness, since he said that his
25 wife was not allowed to be exchanged because he was in the HVO and shot at
1 the Serb side, and the fact is that his wife was in one of the first
2 exchanges, and this is all I'm trying to analyse with the witness. This
3 is why I asked him when he left, when she left, how many exchanges there
4 were between his exchange and that of his wife, and how long the exchanges
5 were going on for.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were at least three exchanges
7 between mine and that of my wife, before my wife left the town. I don't
8 know exactly how many, but I know that there was one exchange in July. I
9 know at least that.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, so there were at least three exchanges between your
12 exchange and that of your wife?
13 A. Yes. I had to wait for seven months for my wife. I don't know
14 the dates exactly, but my wife did not leave the town for seven months.
15 You have some other kind of list.
16 Q. But she was exchanged even though the Serbs knew that you shot at
17 them, at the Serbs?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Please tell me: Who did you see about your wife's exchange? Who
20 did you plead with?
21 A. There were several commissions in Croatia: In Odzak, in
22 Domaljevac. I went to see all of them.
23 Q. Did you go and see Mijo Matanovic?
24 A. No, I didn't meet Mijo Matanovic. I went to some offices and
25 there were some names there, but I don't remember any more. I went to the
1 international organisations. I went from Domaljevac to Djakovo by foot,
2 on foot - I'm sorry - because there were no other means of transportation.
3 Q. So you went to see these commissions and put your wife's name down
4 as the name of somebody who wanted to cross to the other side?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When did you do that?
7 A. When did I do what?
8 Q. When did you put down your wife's name as somebody who wants to be
10 A. As soon as I was exchanged and I had the first opportunity to do
11 so, I put her name down for an exchange.
12 Q. But you did not see that her name was actually put down for the
14 A. She was told in the office in Samac that her name was on the list
15 and then that it was erased from the list.
16 Q. My question was: Did you actually see the name of your wife being
17 put on the list?
18 A. No. I put that name down myself, together with the name of my
20 Q. Do you know Marko Bozanovic?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Did you go and see him to urge for your wife to be exchanged?
23 A. I knew him, and I asked him to help my wife and children be
24 exchanged. I don't know what function he held at the time, but I knew
25 him, and I asked him to help me get my wife and children exchanged.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasarevic.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've finished my
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Next counsel.
5 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Novic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jasarevic. My name is Sredoje
8 Novic, and on behalf of Mr. Blagoje Simic, I will be putting questions to
9 you. I will kindly ask you to give me yes-or-no answers, if possible;
10 in cases where you don't know the answer, just please say "I don't know."
11 Mr. Jasarevic, can we agree that in the time period between
12 January and April 1992, in Bosanski Samac, there was an increased tension
13 which was expressed, among other things, in the interethnic division among
15 A. I don't know what you have in mind, interethnic division or
16 division among ethnic lines.
17 Q. Well, among the residents, there was an ethnic division?
18 A. Yes, but not on my side.
19 Q. Well, I'm not interested in that. Please answer my questions.
20 Among other things, Serbs frequented Serb cafes, Croats frequented
21 Croatian cafes, and Muslims frequented their own?
22 A. That's not correct.
23 Q. Thank you. Since you know that immediately prior to the breakout
24 of conflict in April 1992 in Bosanski Samac, the Muslim government in
25 Sarajevo issued an order to organise the Territorial Defence in Bosanski
1 Samac --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
3 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, I've got a problem with counsel's
4 question. He talks about the Muslim government in Sarajevo. What Muslim
5 government in Sarajevo? I think -- I mean -- the government that was
6 elected at the time that was operating in Sarajevo? Is he talking
7 about -- I don't know of any official entity called "the Muslim
8 government," and I'd like to have that clear.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. At the material time, yes.
10 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] I hope it is a well-established fact
11 that in Sarajevo there was a Croat/Muslim government, and that Serbs were
12 not part of that government, and that that government issued an order to
13 organise Territorial Defence in Bosanski Samac.
14 Q. Do you have information about the fact that the decision of that
15 government, concerning the organisation of Territorial Defence in Bosanski
16 Samac, was adopted without the approval of the Serb side and led to an
17 increase of tensions?
18 A. That decision was issued with the participation of
19 all -- representatives of all three sides.
20 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, I would now like to turn your attention to what you
21 said in paragraph 29.
22 A. There were three representatives in the TO: There was one Croat,
23 one Serb, and one Muslim.
24 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask that
25 you instruct the witness to answer my questions.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never said this was the Muslim
2 government. I said it was the government from Sarajevo. And you are now
3 claiming that it was the Muslim government, which didn't even exist.
4 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please read the text
5 of paragraph 29.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
7 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I appreciate that this may be the first
8 time that counsel is cross-examining here, but he's saying -- he's asking
9 the Bench to instruct the witness to answer questions. I can't follow the
10 cross, with the questions he's trying to pose, the speed it's going.
11 Maybe it's a problem with the interpretation, that the transcript comes a
12 bit later, but I think that at the moment he's being unfair to the witness
13 in suggesting he's not answering a question, when I can't see a question
14 being posed. And maybe --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: So far the witness has been answering the questions.
16 MS. REIDY: Exactly, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: My observation is that the counsel is a bit too
18 fast. If counsel can be waiting for interpretation of the answers to be
20 MR. NOVIC: Okay. Thank you.
21 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 29, Mr. Jasarevic, you said:
22 "Shortly before the war ..." Will you please read this out.
23 A. Yes, I've read it.
24 Q. No. Will you please read it out loud. Or shall I read it?
25 A. What it says here is what I've stated.
1 Q. All right. Thank you.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
3 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Did this lead to the increased tensions in the area? Is that
6 A. There were tensions, but the TO distributed weapons only one day
7 before the attack on Bosanski Samac.
8 Q. All I'm asking you, Mr. Jasarevic, is whether what you stated here
9 is true.
10 A. Yes, it is true.
11 Q. Thank you. All right. Let's turn to another topic.
12 Mr. Jasarevic, when did you join the reserve police force?
13 A. I was a member since the time when I finished my mandatory
14 military service, which was in 1972, and then up until the breakout of
16 Q. Can you please tell me what tasks did you have in the reserve
18 A. Mostly securing the railway line when Tito's train passed through,
19 and things that had to do with security and so on.
20 Q. How long did you remain with the reserve forces?
21 A. Well, until the breakout of war. I didn't really pay attention to
22 the exact time.
23 Q. So was it until 1992?
24 A. No. I think --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
1 A. No. I think I was removed from the reserve force one year before
2 the war broke out.
3 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you tell me, please: What was your wartime assignment?
5 A. My wartime assignment was with the civil protection.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you are still ahead. Can you please
8 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, can you please tell me: Who was the commander of
10 the reserve police force in Samac while you were on that reserve force?
11 A. It was Ivan Lonac, Ljoljic Mijo
12 Q. Please slow down. So it was Ivan?
13 A. Yes. Ivan Lonac and Ljoljic Mijo. These are the names I
14 remember. There were other people there as well.
15 Q. What is their ethnic background?
16 A. Ivan Lonac is a Croat.
17 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. You don't know. All right. We have information that you were
20 issued with a Kalashnikov weapon. Is that true?
21 A. I already stated in my statement.
22 Q. Please tell us whether this is true or not. Yes or no.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I object to that.
24 A. I did not --
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Why is he being asked to repeat what's in his
1 statement? If it's in his statement, counsel can be assured that the
2 Chamber has read it. The Chamber has read it. We know it's there. It's
3 as if he gave evidence in Court. That's, at least, how I understand 92
4 bis works. So what's the point?
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Novic.
6 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand my learned colleague
7 from the Prosecution; however, I hope that he will have read the
8 statement and seen that the witness did not state that in his statement.
9 So my question is not out of place. This is why I'm asking whether this
10 is true or not.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
12 MS. REIDY: Yes. Thank you. Paragraph 28 -- perhaps counsel has
13 not read the statement. It says:
14 "We were not supplied with arms until closer to the takeover. I
15 was issued with a weapon and a clip of ammunition, which was given to me
16 by Safet Srna. I never used this weapon, and I returned it immediately.
17 I had it for approximately 24 hours. I had my hunting rifle."
18 It's there in paragraph 28.
19 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] I still insist to receive an answer.
20 It doesn't say in the statement that the witness had a Kalashnikov
21 weapon. My question was quite precise, and I want to receive a yes-or-no
22 answer. That's all. And I don't see what is contentious here.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: For the purposes of this case, it's sufficient if
24 the witness has stated that he had a weapon.
25 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] The type of weapon, Your Honours, is
1 quite important for this Chamber.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Why?
3 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Because the weapons are not the same.
4 A weapon can be a pistol, a weapon can be a cannon, it can also be a
5 Kalashnikov, it can be a sniper. There are many different types of
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but as far as the Trial Chamber is concerned,
8 it is a weapon intended to be used against persons, as opposed to a
9 hunting rifle. I don't think we should be wasting time.
10 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. If Your Honours believe this
11 is --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shouldn't be wasting time about these
13 material details which actually do not affect the issues in the case.
14 MR. PANTELIC: If I may assist, Your Honour. In fact, it is very
15 important. It is of crucial significance, because type of weapon is
16 related to certain documents, exhibits, when we introduced that, in the
17 SDA armed wing in Bosanski Samac. You remember well that there are many
18 lists of members of SDA and the type of the weapon that they were given.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But following -- yes. Following the evidence
20 of Mr. Fitozovic, I don't think there is any contention from the
22 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, but in this particular case,
23 my -- our impression is that this witness is avoiding to say very openly
24 what the type -- it's just one question: What type of weapon you were
25 given? And point. I mean, I don't see any particular reason not to
2 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I don't think it's fair to say that the witness
3 was avoiding to say what type. It's the way the question was put to the
4 witness. If the witness is asked directly: You have stated in your
5 statement that you had a weapon. What type exactly were you issued with?
6 That is different.
7 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. I agree. That can be done. Thank you, Your
9 JUDGE MUMBA: So it's fair to blame the witness.
10 MR. PANTELIC: Okay.
11 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. All right, Mr. Jasarevic. In paragraph 28 of your statement, you
13 stated that you had a weapon and that it had been given to you together
14 with a clip of ammunition. Will you please tell the Chamber what type of
15 weapon was given to you?
16 A. Automatic rifle.
17 Q. What type?
18 A. Automatic rifle. I don't know what type it was.
19 Q. As far as I know, and you have stated so yourself, you were
20 qualified even to repair weapons.
21 A. Hunting weapons.
22 Q. And you didn't have any further knowledge?
23 A. I did not have an automatic rifle when I was in the army.
24 Q. Thank you. In addition to automatic weapon that you were issued
25 with, you also had a hunting carbine, a hunting rifle, a so-called
2 A. Yes. It was a shotgun. It wasn't a pump-action gun.
3 Q. Did you have a pump-action gun?
4 A. No, I didn't.
5 Q. Is that the same type of a rifle?
6 A. No, it isn't.
7 Q. Can you please tell me: What is of a higher quality out of those
9 A. The hunting rifle.
10 Q. Which one?
11 A. The shotgun.
12 Q. Shotgun. All right.
13 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Your Honours, please.
14 I need to consult.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
16 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, in your statement dated 19th May, 2002, which you
18 gave to the Prosecution, in paragraph 6, you stated that you had two
19 hunting rifles -- you owned two of those. One was a carbine and the other
20 one was a pump-action gun.
21 A. I never stated that.
22 Q. So your statement is not true?
23 A. No. It was probably a translation error. Please allow me to
24 finish. I had a hunting rifle, a so-called shotgun, and the second one
25 was a carbine. So those are the two that I had.
1 Q. You also had a hunting knife with your name engraved?
2 A. Yes. It was a hunting knife.
3 Q. Thank you. Did I understand it well that you were also a
4 constructer who constructed a small cannon?
5 A. Yes, that's right, but I didn't have a cannon. My statement
6 reflects everything about that cannon.
7 Q. Can you please tell me: What was the mechanism used in that
8 cannon? Was it a water mechanism, air mechanism, or filling mechanism?
9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, what can be the possible
10 relevance of that? The witness said he made a homemade cannon that fired
11 a cannon ball made of paper used at Ramadan and now we're being asked
12 about the mechanism of that cannon. Who cares? What's the relevance of
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: If this counsel wants to put to the witness that he
16 had an armaments factory and was producing a production line of cannons
17 that he was producing, howitzers and so on out of his back yard, fine, let
18 him put it to the witness. But what can the mechanism of a cannon used at
19 Ramadan, how can that be relevant?
20 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. This cannon that you developed, did it us an explosive charge?
22 Did it use that type of mechanism?
23 A. Yes, it did. Every cannon uses that type. Mechanism.
24 Q. Thank you. You are a locksmith by trade?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. You also had some special skills in working with metals and
2 maintenance and repair of weapons?
3 A. Yes, hunting weapons.
4 Q. Did you have any additional weapons in addition to the ones that
5 we just mentioned here?
6 A. No, I did not.
7 Q. Can you please clarify something for us. In your statement that
8 you gave to the Prosecution, on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th of February of 1995,
9 on page 00637808, it says as follows:
10 "A neighbour came to see me in my neighbour's basement and told me
11 that I had to hand over my pistol."
12 A. I never stated that.
13 Q. Thank you. You read the statement and signed it, didn't you?
14 A. I don't know what the translation was, but I never stated that I
15 had a pistol or that I turned it over.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you -- have you signed this statement?
17 A. I don't know which statement you have in mind.
18 Q. The statement that you gave on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th of February,
19 1995. Have you signed it?
20 A. Yes, I've signed all of my statements. However, I never signed to
21 the fact that I had a pistol.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I think it would be fair of counsel to
24 show the witness the statement. The statement he's talking about, I don't
25 have here, is an English statement.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
2 MS. REIDY: If a witness does sign a statement in English, what
3 happens is the translator is there and reads back to the witness what's in
4 it. Now, a translator may have said -- investigator may have said pistol,
5 may have said back, "your gun." He said, "yes." That's what's in it in
6 general. The witness -- in any of those statements does not read the
7 exact word, you know, which is written, and it's in English, and I think
8 that should be made clear so the Bench understand. And this statement
9 which he read back to himself -- which the witness has read himself in
10 B/C/S does describe how his neighbour came and said they had been looking
11 for weapons. "Please go hand it in in case someone fires at the house,"
12 and how the witness went back and handed it in. That's all been explained
13 on the record. So I just want the Bench to understand that that statement
14 from --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down.
16 MS. REIDY: I apologise yet again to the interpreters. The
17 statement from 1995, the Bench should understand is an English statement
18 and it's --
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps maybe if there is a B/C/S version.
20 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, just for clarification. We've been
21 through all these explanations. This is a serious criminal proceedings.
22 We have a serious proofs and exhibits here. This witness said, on 1995,
23 and he signed this document, he signed that statement, and he was warned
24 by the Prosecution --
25 JUDGE MUMBA: No. You have the Serbo-Croat.
1 MR. PANTELIC: English version is signed. We have a Serbo-Croat
2 version and there is a chapter about this particular episode.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Then why don't we just refer the particular passage
4 to the witness in Serbo-Croat.
5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I would like to outline the position that our
6 learned friend from the Prosecution tried to, I would say, mess the thing
7 because it is not the explanation whether the translation was right or
9 JUDGE MUMBA: No. What I'm saying, Mr. Pantelic, is simply put
10 the passage to the witness.
11 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely. We shall do that. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: The Serbo-Croat one.
13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.
14 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'm not objecting. It's up to the Bench
15 to evaluate this. I just would like the Bench to be clear what the
16 procedure is with that first statement. The witness was spoken to by an
17 investigator and a field interpreter. The investigator recorded a
18 statement in English. After that process, it would have been just read
19 out to the witness and the witness would sign an English version. The
20 witness will not have seen a B/C/S version because that sort of
21 translation facility is not possible in the field. So I have no objection
22 to putting the -- of course the part of the statement in B/C/S to the
23 witness, let him explain that it wasn't a pistol or whatever.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
25 MS. REIDY: But just so you understand that this witness will not
1 have read that B/C/S statement and signed on that basis. It is something
2 that when it came back in house, it was translated for the purpose of --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down, please.
4 MS. REIDY: It was translated for the purposes of disclosure so
5 that the defendants and the Defence counsel would have a B/C/S copy as the
6 Rules require. It's not the copy that the witness ever had in front of
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Defence counsel should put --
9 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, this is a very serious matter.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Mr. Pantelic. Would you please just put the
11 B/C/S version to the witness.
12 MR. PANTELIC: Of course, Your Honour. Allow me just one word.
13 This is very serious matter, Your Honour. This witness signed English
14 version --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: That is not contested.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, it is not contested, but our learned
17 friend from the Prosecution tried to explain how they are not ready for --
18 this is part a indictment, Your Honour. This is a supporting material
19 when the indictment was issued. So it's very serious criminal matter,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, nobody is disputing that. I've given
22 you instructions. Will you put the B/C/S passage to the witness and let
23 him answer and explain.
24 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Now, which one of you is cross-examining?
1 MR. PANTELIC: I'm just giving certain procedural explanation to
2 our learned friends from the Prosecutor Bench. I'm just assistant today
3 for the procedural matters.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but I will not allow --
5 MR. PANTELIC: Like Mr. Di Fazio. Same thing.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: So which one is going to continue?
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, if I may just interrupt for one
8 second, Mr. Sredoje Novic, because I believe it's now time for our break.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: And before we go for break I wanted just to inform
11 the Trial Chamber about one position of the Defence. I mean, in less
12 minutes we have discussed issue and we have our final position regarding
13 whether Witness A could testify according to Rule 92 bis or viva voce.
14 And we also have the confirmation from our clients.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: For our position.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Our final position is as follows: If we receive
19 B/C/S version, unsigned, of course, tomorrow, of Witness A, we would
20 kindly ask this Trial Chamber to issue a ruling that we are allowed to
21 visit our clients during weekend, because we need some sort of permission
22 of the Trial Chamber because otherwise we couldn't go and visit them in
23 the Detention Unit.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: I see.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: This case will be ready to proceed under 92 bis
1 with Witness A, on Monday.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
3 We will take our break and continue the 1100 hours.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Once we start now, we will not take our usual break
7 at 12.30. We shall continue up to 12.45 and break off for the day,
8 because the Judges have meetings for other pre-trial cases at 1.00. And
9 I'm given to understand that the interpreters are willing to go on up to
10 12.45, and I'm grateful for their understanding.
11 The Trial Chamber was also informed by the Registry and the
12 Detention Unit that actually the counsel are allowed to visit their
13 clients from 0900 Monday to Friday up to about 1645. If there is need for
14 any later visits, permission should be sought from the Registry. If there
15 is any emergency, again, permission should be sought from the Registry.
16 So it will depend on how soon the Prosecution will be ready with statement
17 of the witness intended for Monday morning.
18 You can proceed with cross-examination. Yes, you can proceed.
19 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, let us return to the point when we adjourned. I
21 would kindly ask you to tell the Trial Chamber whether, in the statement
22 given on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th of February, 1995, it has been read out to
23 you -- that the following has been read out to you, and I quote:
24 "The statement has been read out to me out loud in the Croatian
25 language, and it contains all that I have stated to the best of my
1 knowledge and recollection. I have given the statement on a voluntary and
2 I'm aware that it can be used in the trial procedure in front of the
3 International Court for the criminal procedure of persons accountable for
4 serious violations of the international law committed in the area of --
5 territory of former Yugoslavia from 1991, and that I can also be called to
6 testify publicly in front of the Court."
7 Has this been read out to you?
8 A. Yes, it has been.
9 Q. Did you sign this statement?
10 A. As I already mentioned, I signed all the statements.
11 Q. Thank you. And now let me read out the contradictory paragraph
12 which this relates to. I quote. So it refers to the statement given on
13 the 3rd, 4th, and 5th February 1995, page 00637808, paragraph 3?
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
15 MS. REIDY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Before we go any further,
16 this is exactly the point that I was making. Mr. Osman was asked: Was
17 that paragraph read out to him. He said yes, it was. He was asked: Did
18 you sign a statement? He said yes, he did. He signed that statement in
19 English, from which the paragraph was read out. It says to me: "This
20 statement has been read over to me in the Croatian language," et cetera.
21 It's the English language document he signed. The ERN number that Defence
22 counsel has just read out comes from the B/C/S unsigned version, done
23 in-house, after the document was brought back. It says clearly in the
24 right-hand corner, just above that ERN number "original, English." The
25 paragraph to which counsel was trying to impeach the witness, in the
1 signed statement, says -- sorry, Your Honour. I had it:
2 "A neighbour came to see me in my neighbour's cellar and told me
3 that I had to return my gun." "Gun." And that is clearly what's in the
4 English version and that is what is signed. So now, before, as I said,
5 Defence counsel proceeds, he's going to try to impeach the witness with a
6 statement that he hasn't signed and the one that he's asked him about
7 whether he signed or not. So I think it's improper to continue with that
9 MR. DI FAZIO: If I may add too. It's obvious. You can see -- I
10 don't read B/C/S, but my colleague pointed out to me, Ms. Reidy pointed
11 out to me, the B/C/S, you can see the word. It says "revolver". We know
12 what is a revolver is. It's a pistol. That's in the B/C/S, but in
13 English it says "gun," and gun can mean rifle, it can mean pistol, it can
14 mean shotgun, all those things. I'll reiterate Ms. Reidy's point. It's
15 the English that was read to him.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: And so you can see what counsel is trying to get at
18 and you can see how unfair it is to the witness, because what he put his
19 signature on was the word "gun."
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.
21 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, then I believe it was misleading of
22 this witness. He cannot read or he doesn't speak English. Why? It's a
23 lack of diligence from the part of Prosecution. After seven years, Your
24 Honour, they have enough time to verify everything, to clarify, to make a
25 proper translation. That's the basis of our [indiscernible], but we can
1 proceed. No problem.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pantelic, will you please sit down.
3 Counsel, you can proceed with your questions.
4 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In the same statement that I had quoted, allow me just to read out
6 what has been determined, without going into any commentary. I quote:
7 "On Saturday, 19th of April, the JNA had collected our weapons. A
8 neighbour has come to see me in my neighbour's cellar, and he told me that
9 I must return my revolver. I called -- telephoned the SUP and I told them
10 that I still have the revolver. They immediately sent a patrol car. I
11 went out on the road. I gave them the revolver and the weapons permit,
12 but the policeman just threw it to the ground."
13 Thank you. Now, did you say it?
14 A. I never had a revolver. I handed in my two guns, hunting guns.
15 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, you were a member of the HVO?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you say in which HVO brigade did you operate, belong?
18 A. I don't know exactly which brigade it was. I was in Domaljevac.
19 But I don't know exactly which brigade.
20 Q. It's hard to believe that you were there, stationed 18 months, and
21 that you don't know which brigade you belonged to.
22 A. Probably 104th.
23 Q. Can you tell us who the commander of the brigade was?
24 A. I don't know who the commander of the 104th Brigade was.
25 Q. Who was your direct superior?
1 A. I didn't have a direct superior. I had other activities, other
3 Q. Can you tell us what assignments did you have in the HVO?
4 A. All concerning repair and functioning of machinery, vehicles, and
6 Q. If I understand correctly, you were repairing military weapons.
7 A. Yes, military weapons.
8 Q. Thank you. During -- I withdraw, as you didn't participate in
10 A. I also participated in the combat of units on the front line at
11 Grebnice on the embankment at the area of Nasipa [phoen] embankment and
12 Grebnice. I replaced somebody there.
13 Q. Did you have any weapons with you then?
14 A. Normally, I did.
15 Q. What type of weapon?
16 A. An automatic rifle.
17 Q. While you were there, was combat going on?
18 A. No, it was not.
19 Q. Can you recall what type of a rifle was it?
20 A. An automatic rifle.
21 Q. Was it of Yugoslav make?
22 A. Of Yugoslav make.
23 Q. As you said that you're an experienced hunter, can we agree with
24 the fact that when one places an optic sight on the carbine, that it
25 becomes a sniper rifle?
1 A. Any rifle will become a sniper if you put an optic sight.
2 Q. While you were participating in the battles?
3 A. I did not participate in the battles.
4 Q. Do I understand you correctly that you were their duty officer
5 when you were at the front line?
6 A. I was at the front line, but there were no battles, ongoing
7 battles, at the time.
8 Q. Can you recall how long you stayed there?
9 A. Time period?
10 Q. Out of these 18 months.
11 A. I already stated that I went there more than on one occasion, when
12 I had to replace somebody else.
13 Q. Did you shoot at the time?
14 A. Yes, I did shoot.
15 Q. Did you kill anybody?
16 A. I do not believe so.
17 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, you've stated that you had witnessed and that an
18 armed group or, to be more precise, a group of Muslims and Croats who had
19 weapons was in the centre of the town, near the department store and the
20 mosque, on the 17th of April, 1992.
21 A. I don't know the exact date, but they were there.
22 Q. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
25 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, may I just ask counsel to follow the same
1 practice as co-counsel for Mr. Tadic. Again, if he's referring to
2 evidence which wasn't led viva voce but just the statement and he's saying
3 it's in, perhaps we could have the paragraph number so that we can find
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can find it.
6 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel.
8 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I didn't quote the
9 statement. I was questioning about his personal -- I raised the question
10 in connection with his personal knowledge. But if my learned colleague
11 desires so, that will not be a problem, and I will quote the paragraphs,
12 those paragraphs for which I assess that they should be presented. May we
14 Q. Do I understand correctly, Mr. Jasarevic, that that was the
15 mosque, the department store, and the city park? Is that the area?
16 A. No, not the city park.
17 Q. How far is it?
18 A. From where?
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
20 MS. REIDY: Counsel said Mr. Jasarevic, you've stated that you had
21 witnessed ..." The witness didn't state viva voce. It's in his
22 statement. Is it correct that Mr. Novic, is it, is now referring to
23 paragraph 39 of the written statement? That's all I'd like to ask,
24 because he said it was stated. It wasn't stated viva voce, therefore, I'm
25 presuming he's referring to paragraph 39. That's the only clarification I
1 asked for, was the number of the paragraph.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Novic.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone, counsel.
5 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, you've heard the question of my learned colleague
7 of the Prosecution, and please, in order to ensure a clarification on
8 this: Did you see this group of people -- did you see them in that part
9 of the town close to the mosque, the department store, and the hotel?
10 A. I did not see near the hotel anybody. I asked whether there was
11 anybody there in proximity of the hotel.
12 Q. Therefore, if I understand, you didn't state that you had seen
13 them also at the hotel.
14 A. I asked that.
15 Q. This park which I mentioned, is it located between the mosque and
16 the department store and the hotel?
17 A. Yes, it does.
18 Q. This group, as you have stated, or a number, a certain number of
19 Muslims and Croats, were they armed with automatic weapons and rifles?
20 Weren't they?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just have clarification? Counsel, you asked
23 whether this park you mentioned was locate between the mosque and the
24 department store and the hotel, and the answer was: Yes, it does. It's
25 supposed to be: Yes, it is. What is the correct -- what was supposed to
1 be the correct question? Is it the mosque and the department store or the
2 mosque and the hotel? Or all three places?
3 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You have heard the judge's question. Is the park located between
5 these three buildings: The mosque and the hotel and --
6 A. Mosque and the hotel, not the department store.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
8 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. In connection with this, can you tell us whether the mosque is in
10 the park?
11 A. The mosque is located next to the park.
12 Q. When saying "next," does it imply directly next to the park?
13 A. Directly next to the park.
14 Q. Do you, Mr. Jasarevic, have any knowledge that the SDA party armed
15 formation, among its weapons, had also, and except for automatic weapons
16 and rifles --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
18 MS. REIDY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Objection. Counsel has not
19 established that Mr. Jasarevic knows anything about an SDA party armed
20 formation, even if there was one or anything, and he's already asking
21 about whether or not they had weapons. He needs to establish whether the
22 witness even knows if there was such a thing as an armed SDA party, armed
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel. I'm sure you've understood the
25 objection of the Prosecution.
1 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I only asked
2 whether the witness has any knowledge, and I don't see what is here
3 contentious. He -- the witness can only say yes or no.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The point is, the witness has not given any
5 evidence or has not stated that there was an SDA party formation, and the
6 second question -- from your -- the second point is whether that SDA party
7 formation had weapons among which were automatic weapons and rifles. So
8 the Prosecution is objecting, because you haven't established with this
9 witness whether he knows that, first of all, the SDA party had an armed
10 formation; secondly, if there was -- secondly, what type of weapons did
11 they have?
12 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, did this -- I withdraw my question. Very well. Do
14 you know that the SDA party in Samac had armed formations?
15 A. I did not have any knowledge of that.
16 Q. Do you know, your knowledge, that weapons had been distributed
17 along the party lines?
18 A. I do not know what kind of weapons had been distributed.
19 Q. Can you tell us, in view of the fact that you received weapons,
20 did you have instructions when you would have to use these weapons?
21 A. I received no instructions. I already stated in this statement
22 how I received the weapon.
23 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, can we agree on the fact that in Bosanski Samac,
24 much earlier than the 17th of April, 1992, all ethnic groups - Serbs,
25 Croats, Muslims - began arming themselves?
1 A. I don't know that all ethnic groups were arming themselves.
2 Q. When you say "I don't know that," what do you have in mind?
3 A. Well, I can't know how people arm themselves, because it wasn't an
4 organised process that people were arming themselves, and except for the
5 JNA, Yugoslav People's Army.
6 Q. Do you know specifically how Muslims armed themselves?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. I suppose that you also don't know how the Croats armed
10 A. That's right. I don't know.
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jasarevic, in paragraph 46 of your statement dated
12 May 19th, 2002, you stated that in the first three days following April
13 17th, there was a call-up to men of military age, so it was a
14 mobilisation --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
16 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, [indiscernible], but maybe counsel
17 doesn't appreciate that this statement of the 19th of May is the one in
18 evidence. It's Exhibit P129.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
20 MS. REIDY: Now he's listed paragraph 46, unless there's been some
21 big discrepancy in the translation, it generally says, "There was a form
22 of mobilisation call during the first three days." It mentions nothing
23 about "to all men of military age". And I think that if counsel is going
24 to be quoting from the exhibit, he makes it clear what the witness has
25 said as part of his evidence and not put words which aren't there into it.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There is no -- in paragraph 46 that the
2 mobilisation was for men of military age.
3 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not say I was
4 quoting from paragraph 46. I simply gave a liberal interpretation of it.
5 Mobilisation, everywhere in the world, implies men of military age.
6 However, let me rephrase my question.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
8 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, did you receive, in the first three days, call-up
10 papers instructing you to report to the Territorial Defence of Republika
11 Srpska in Bosanski Samac?
12 A. There was no Republika Srpska in Bosanski Samac at the time.
13 Q. The Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was in existence at
14 the time.
15 A. No, it was not.
16 Q. All right. Did you receive call-up papers?
17 A. What kind of call-up papers?
18 Q. Call-up papers for mobilisation.
19 A. No. There was an announcement on the radio that everybody had to
20 report for mobilisation.
21 Q. All right. Well, how did you understand this term, that everybody
22 had to report?
23 A. I took it to mean that the entire population of Bosanski Samac had
24 to report for mobilisation.
25 Q. Does that cover handicapped, disabled, sick, the elderly,
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. You told us that you completed your mandatory military service.
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you respond to this call-up?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Where and when did you report to?
8 A. When I saw that groups of people were going to report, I went to
9 the TO building in Bosanski Samac, and in charge of Palata member of the
10 4th Detachment, was issuing confirmation on reporting to the call-up, and
11 there was a stamp on the call-up papers, and I did not want to go and get
12 it. I simply went back.
13 Q. Will you agree with me that these people had white armbands on
14 their sleeves?
15 A. Yes, they did.
16 Q. Can we agree that these white armbands indicated that they
17 belonged to a TO unit?
18 A. Whoever moved about had to wear a white armband.
19 Q. Let's put a few questions concerning another topic.
20 Mr. Jasarevic, you are aware of the fact that the Party of Democratic
21 Action, the SDA, either organised watches, guards, before the 17th of
22 April, 1992 --
23 A. Yes, and I stated so in my statement.
24 Q. And you participated in those neighbourhood watches?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. You probably have information that in Croatian villages,
2 checkpoints were set up before April 17th, 1992.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us in which villages they were set up?
5 A. In almost all places: In Hasici, Domaljevac, Crkvina, Serbian
6 Tisina. Everywhere where one moved, there were some checkpoints.
7 Q. Thank you. When did you find out that the person who hit you in
8 the police car was called Aleksandar Vukovic?
9 A. I learned that right away.
10 Q. What do you mean, "right away"? Let's be more specific, please.
11 A. When I was brought there. All of those who beat us and harassed
12 us liked to introduce themselves.
13 Q. Does that mean that he personally introduced himself to you?
14 A. Yes, he did so personally. He said "Aleksandar Vukovic." Lugar
15 did the same; so did Avram. All of them liked to state their full first
16 name, last name, and the place where they hailed from.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasarevic. Yesterday you confirmed to this Trial
18 Chamber that you heard on the radio that the Crisis Staff of Samac had
19 established the Aleksandar Vukovic foundation?
20 A. Yes. I never failed to listen to Radio Samac programme.
21 Q. Can you please remember: When was it that you heard this?
22 A. I can't recall that, but I always listened to the radio, because
23 Simo Zaric had a show, a programme, in which he daily spoke about how
24 Muslim and Croat forces had been preparing an attack on Samac, and whose
25 ever name he mentioned on the radio was later on arrested. That happened
1 to my brother.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you at least specify approximate time?
3 A. I cannot.
4 Q. Was it summertime, winter, fall?
5 A. I can't tell you.
6 Q. Can you remember where were you at the time when you heard this?
7 A. In Orasje.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: It's just a little unclear to me, as I look at the
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry. I apologise. Just what counsel was
12 getting at whether he was talking about the programme that Simo Zaric
13 had --
14 JUDGE MUMBA: I think Serbo-Croat is crossing into channel 4,
15 because as Mr. Di Fazio is talking, I keep getting the Serbo-Croat
17 Yes. You are saying -- you were asking whether.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: I just wasn't quite sure what counsel was asking
19 about, when he went into times, whether he was talking about the Simo
20 Zaric programme or whether he was talking about the Aleksandar Vukovic
21 issue, and that's all. I wasn't objecting, but just so that we can all
22 understand the questioning.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure counsel can clarify.
24 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, did I understand this well: On the radio, you
1 heard this announcement that a foundation had been established, a
2 foundation called Aleksandar Vukovic?
3 A. Yes, I did hear.
4 Q. Can you tell us: Was that immediately after the exchange?
5 A. No, it wasn't.
6 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, do you know that the permits for leaving the city
7 were issued by the police station to civilians, whereas military
8 conscripts were issued these permits by the military command?
9 A. No, I don't know. Nobody ever received a permit from the police
10 stating they could leave the town.
11 Q. Does that mean that you didn't know anything about which entity
12 issued such permits?
13 A. Well, I just told you: I never saw any permit that anybody
14 received from the police, nor did I hear anything about it.
15 Q. So as I take it, you didn't know that anybody was issuing these
16 kinds of permits.
17 A. Yes. I was in prison. How could I know about that?
18 Q. And you didn't learn about this later on?
19 A. I learned later on that somebody had interceded, and I described
20 that in my statement.
21 Q. Who interceded?
22 A. Well, there was an attempt to get me out of Samac through
23 Dr. Blagoje Simic, because he was able to issue a permit for somebody to
24 leave the town.
25 Q. Can you tell me whether you know directly about this?
1 A. It says so in my statement. I don't have direct knowledge about
3 Q. Well, can you tell us who told you about this?
4 A. My sister, who lived in Gradacac after I reunited with her.
5 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I fear this is the same issue that
6 Mr. Di Fazio raised before the break, which is counsel is asking the
7 witness to put on record evidence which is already there in his statement,
8 admitted as evidence. It's paragraph 9. If there was further
9 clarification on that, of course counsel could ask him based on that, but
10 he's -- again, we're -- the same as Mr. Di Fazio said before the break,
11 this is not -- seems to be defeating the purpose of having this in
13 JUDGE MUMBA: He is repeating -- counsel is asking questions --
14 MS. REIDY: -- which are in evidence.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Repeating what the witness has already given.
16 Counsel, when you are cross-examining, don't ask the witness to
17 repeat what has already been stated. Just go straight on with your
18 cross-examination, with your questions, if you are challenging anything or
19 you are seeking clarification.
20 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but I believe that
21 this part of the statement is not clear enough, and it refers directly --
22 or it pertains directly to my client. And for us, the content of the
23 statement is not sufficient, and I wish to ask a few more questions
24 regarding this.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
1 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Naturally, if the witness knows
2 anything about it.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You're not being stopped from questioning the
4 witness. It's the repetition, asking questions which -- whereby the
5 witness has to repeat what has already been stated. That's the problem.
6 You can go ahead and cross-examine as you wish, but do not ask the witness
7 to repeat what has already been stated.
8 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.
9 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, can you tell us, please, the name of the person
10 through whom your sister intervened?
11 A. Through Dr. Halilovic from Gradacac and another doctor whom I
12 don't know in Bosanski Samac. That's all I know.
13 Q. Would you agree with me that this means that your sister lived in
14 Gradacac, that she talked to Dr. Halilovic in Gradacac, that Dr. Halilovic
15 spoke to a physician in Bosanski Samac, and that that physician inquired
16 with Mr. Simic about this? Is this how it was?
17 A. Yes, that's right. You understood it well, and that's what I
19 Q. All right. All I wanted was to clarify how this all transpired.
20 Thank you very much.
21 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. And just one more issue. Mr. Jasarevic, in paragraph 9 of your
25 statement dated 19th May 2001 [As interpreted], in line 5, you stated:
1 "He was the one who could issue a pass to leave"?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. Can you tell me now: How do you know this?
4 A. Well, this is what was rumoured.
5 Q. So you don't know this for a fact? You don't have direct
6 knowledge of it?
7 A. Well, I told you: It was rumoured that Blagoje Simic was able to
8 issue permits because he was the president of the Crisis Staff.
9 MR. NOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've completed my
10 cross-examination. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: The next counsel. Mr. Pisarevic.
12 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Just a correction of the transcript. There's an
13 error on page 62, line 20. It reads: 19 May 2001. It should be 2002.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, actually, it should be 2002.
15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jasarevic. My name is Borislav
18 Pisarevic and I will cross-examine you on behalf of the Defence team of
19 Mr. Zaric.
20 However, before we proceed, I would like, on behalf of my client,
21 Mr. Simo Zaric, to express his regret concerning everything that you and
22 your family have experienced and suffered during this unfortunate conflict
23 in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
24 A. I don't need any apologies.
25 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, this was no apology. My client expressed his
2 A. I don't need any regrets either.
3 Q. You have to understand that this regret does not pertain only to
4 what you experienced but to everything that happened to all of the people
5 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. But let's leave that aside for the time being.
6 I would like for you to abide by the instructions that were issued
7 to you earlier by my clients regarding how to reply to my questions, and I
8 will continue by saying that I thoroughly analysed your statement and
9 concluded that, as far as some events are concerned, you were an
10 eyewitness to them, whereas some events you conveyed as you had heard
11 about them, and then in some parts of the statement you simply gave your
12 opinion concerning the events. I will now put questions to you regarding
13 those things to which you were an eyewitness and regarding those things to
14 which you have direct knowledge.
15 A. I don't know how you can put questions when you actively
16 participated in these events. You had a rifle in your hands and you were
18 Q. Sir, this matter was already deliberated before this Tribunal, and
19 we can leave that aside for the time being.
20 As it is, I'm here, and I will be putting questions to you.
21 In paragraph 11 of your statement, which is Exhibit 529, and it is
22 right in front of you, you stated as follows:
23 "I know Simo Zaric very well."
24 That's the first sentence, isn't it? Have you found that?
25 A. Yes, I have.
1 Q. Does it say here that you knew Simo Zaric very well?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I will not read the rest of it, but rather put several questions
4 to you regarding how well you knew Mr. Simo Zaric and his family.
5 Do you know that Simo Zaric came to reside in Bosanski Samac town
6 and municipality in 1970?
7 A. I don't know that.
8 Q. Do you know that Mr. Zaric's first employment was in the company
9 Bosanka from Bosanski Samac? It was a commercial enterprise.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know that from 1975 to 1979, Simo Zaric was the commander
12 of the public security station in Bosanski Samac municipality?
13 A. I don't know all of the offices he held, because he held many
15 Q. Do you know that he was the commander of the public security
17 A. I don't know that.
18 Q. Do you know that from 1979 to 1982, Mr. Zaric was the director of
19 the furniture factory, Buducnost from Bosanski Samac, which existed within
20 a larger enterprise, Sipad from Sarajevo?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know that from 1982 until 1985, Mr. Zaric was the head of
23 the representative office of Sipad in Belgrade?
24 A. I don't know that.
25 Q. Do you know that from 1985 to 1986, Mr. Zaric worked in the state
1 security office in the public security station?
2 A. I know that he was in the State Security Service.
3 Q. Do you know that from 1987 until the 1st of September of 1991,
4 Mr. Simo Zaric was the head of the State Security Services detachment
5 headquartered in Modrica?
6 A. Well, as I've told you before, I didn't really follow his career,
7 and I don't know all of the offices he has held.
8 Q. Do you know that Mr. Simo Zaric retired from the service on the
9 1st of September, 1991, following the elections in which the SDS, SDA, and
10 HDZ parties won?
11 A. I don't know when he retired and under what circumstances.
12 Q. Do you know that Mr. Zaric, from 1970 and up until today, has
13 constantly, with his family, resided in Bosanski Samac?
14 A. Yes, I know.
15 Q. Do you know that Mr. Zaric's first wife was a Serb?
16 A. I didn't know. I don't know all of his wives.
17 Q. I'll ask about him. Do you know that he had a daughter from that
18 marriage by the name of Natasa?
19 A. I do not know.
20 Q. Do you know the fact that Mr. Zaric has a daughter Natasa?
21 A. I never heard that.
22 Q. Do you know that the second wife of Mr. Zaric, Marija Petric, was
23 of Croat ethnicity, from Bosanski Samac?
24 A. I know that, but I don't know the lady.
25 Q. But you certainly know the fact that his third wife, Mrs. Fatima
1 Topcagic was from Bosanski Samac?
2 A. Yes, I do. She was a relative of mine.
3 Q. Certainly you know that he has, with his last wife, a son, son
4 Miro [As interpreted]?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You certainly know the fact --
7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's a small
8 correction, line 24. The son's name is Mirel not Miro. Mirel.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you.
11 Q. You also know the fact that Mrs. Fatima entered in this marriage
12 with a son from a previous marriage, son Denis? You probably know that
13 Denis was accepted by Mr. Zaric, caring for this Denis as his own son. Do
14 you know? Yes or no.
15 A. I do not know how he was involved and how he cared for this boy.
16 It's a personal matter.
17 Q. Now I will pose a question concerning the broader family of
18 Mr. Zaric. You probably know Mustafa Omeranovic from Bosanski Samac?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Do you know the fact that the wife of Mr. Omeranovic, Mustafa,
21 whose name is Koviljka, is the sister of Mr. Simo Zaric?
22 A. Yes, I know.
23 Q. Do you know the other sister, Mara Zaric, who lived in Odzak?
24 A. I do not know.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, I was just wondering about all these
1 details about your client's family. What is the relevance? Because it's
2 too much detail.
3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I and my client
4 are here for the first time in a position where the witness of the
5 Prosecution, his statement says that he knows Mr. Zaric very well. By
6 saying that he knows Mr. Simo Zaric very well, it would mean that he knows
7 not only Mr. Zaric but also the family, and we expected we could receive
8 certain information.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic, but please, do keep it to
10 matters which are relevant to the indictment, not personal details which
11 have no relevance to the allegations against your client. It's no use
12 challenging a witness on a matter which has no relevance, which does not
13 affect the liability of your client. It's a waste of time. So please,
14 keep your questions to matters which are relevant, which affect the
15 allegations in the indictment, and ignore whatever details which do not
16 have a bearing on the allegations in the indictment against your client.
17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will follow your
18 instructions, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, do you know the fact that Mr. Simo Zaric was a
20 member of the League of Communists?
21 A. Yes, I know of that fact.
22 Q. Do you know of the fact that Mr. Zaric was, from 1990, a member of
23 the social democratic party of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
24 A. Yes, I knew that.
25 Q. It means it's known to you that Simo Zaric was never a member of
2 A. He was never a member of SDS; at least, I don't know that he was.
3 Q. Can you confirm the fact that Mr. Zaric was in the town and
4 municipality of Bosanski Samac, known for his pro-Yugoslav stand?
5 A. These pro-Yugoslav positions also brought us to this situation.
6 Q. Well, this is your opinion. But I'm interested in the period up
7 to the 17th of April, 1992. Was Mr. Zaric known by this pro-Yugoslav
8 attitude of his? Just say yes or no.
9 A. What do you mean, "Yugoslav attitude"?
10 Q. As a pro-Yugoslav equality and so on.
11 A. Yes. In that sense, yes.
12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] There are some -- there's a lack
13 of clarity, namely, in the transcript. I've asked whether he was known by
14 his position concerning equality, brotherhood and unity, equity,
15 tolerance, amongst all nations and ethnic minorities in the former
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe the witness can answer that.
18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] The witness already answered; at
19 least, that's how I understood it.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can you confirm that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You know that Mr. Zaric was a well-known cultural and sports
25 activist in the Samac area?
1 A. I did not know that.
2 Q. Do you remember that Mr. Zaric was one of the persons who
3 performed national folklore, music, and ethnic music?
4 A. I didn't know, and I wasn't interested.
5 Q. Do you know that Zaric was a member of the Fazan Association, the
6 hunters' association of Samac?
7 A. Yes, I do know.
8 Q. You mentioned that there were some rumours about Mr. Zaric in
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you ever hear or know that against Mr. Simo Zaric there were
12 any criminal suits carried on against him?
13 A. I only said what the rumours were, and that is what I also said in
14 my statement.
15 Q. You also know - or maybe you don't know - that Mr. Zaric was never
16 sentenced for any criminal act?
17 A. I don't know whether he was sentenced or not for any act.
18 Q. You don't know whether Mr. Zaric was ever imprisoned?
19 A. I never heard that he was ever in prison.
20 Q. You stated that you were a member of the reserve police force and
21 that Simo Zaric trained you concerning external enemies.
22 A. I didn't say "train," but he lectured us on this topic.
23 Q. He, Mr. Zaric, held lectures on the struggle against external
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you confirm that in the reserve police force, to whom
2 Mr. Zaric lectured, that the ranks were composed of all ethnic groups of
4 A. Yes, they were.
5 Q. Can we agree that these lectures held by Mr. Zaric were held from
6 1975 until 1979, as long as Mr. Zaric was the chief of police in Bosanski
8 A. Probably, yes, but I don't recall the years and the dates.
9 Q. But in any case, when you were a member of the reserve police
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now please turn to paragraph 14 of your statement. Did you find
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. I will only read out from the third line, just a part of what
16 you've stated. From what I know -- I will not read out this statement. I
17 will just ask a few questions concerning the area and the topic of the 4th
18 Detachment, its organisation, function, and so on and so forth.
19 Do you know of the existence of the 17th Tactical Group of the
21 A. I do not know.
22 Q. But do you know that the 4th Detachment of the JNA was a part of
23 the -- of a higher military formation when it was founded on the 1st of
24 May, 1992 [As interpreted]?
25 A. I do not know.
1 Q. But do you know --
2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I suggest that the entry -- it
3 should be the 5th of January, 1992, and not 1st of May.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: These are lines 18 and 19.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. It should be -- yes. The counsel has
6 given the correct date, so it will be corrected.
7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you personally know Lieutenant Colonel Stevan Nikolic?
9 A. I met him in Brcko when I was imprisoned.
10 Q. This means that you, in your statement, you've first seen
11 Lieutenant Colonel Stevan Nikolic in Brcko, in the garrison, on the 27th
12 of April, 1992, is it?
13 A. Yes, in the garrison of Brcko.
14 Q. Are you aware of fact that within the 17th Tactical Group was also
15 the Brcko garrison and Bosanski Samac?
16 A. I don't know of any Tactical Group.
17 MS. REIDY: That was just my point. The witness has said that, on
18 lines 14 through to 16, and counsel should perhaps remember that he's said
19 he doesn't know anything about a 17th Tactical Group.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes, Mr. Pisarevic.
21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the zone of responsibility of the
23 4th Detachment was the town of Bosanski Samac?
24 A. Yes, probably it was of the 4th Detachment, the town of Samac.
25 Q. Do you know the fact that the members of the 4th Detachment of the
1 JNA were exclusively inhabitants living in the local commune of Samac?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the commander of the 4th Detachment
4 was Radovan Antic, a reserve captain of the JNA?
5 A. I didn't know him. I know that Simo was the one who decided about
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe that the answer was not
8 correctly interpreted. Here it says: "I didn't know him," speaking about
9 Radovan Antic.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: And this is not what he actually said. He said he
12 didn't know about here in the 4th Detachment, and he never spoke about not
13 knowing Radovan Antic.
14 MS. REIDY: Thank you very much, my learned colleague, because
15 that's what's in his statement. But of course, I have no way of following
16 the B/C/S and --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe we can clarify that as to what the
18 witness actually said with counsel, Mr. Pisarevic.
19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Do you know Mr. Radovan Antic?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Do you know the fact that Mr. Radovan Antic was a reserve captain
23 of the JNA?
24 A. I don't know -- I know that he was in reserve, but I don't know
25 what his rank was.
1 Q. But you do know that he was a reserve officer of the JNA?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Do you know the fact that he was something in the 4th Detachment?
4 A. I do not know what he was in the 4th Detachment.
5 Q. And now can you clarify what I'm reading in your statement,
6 paragraph 14. It says:
7 "I also knew that he was -- Radovan Antic was involved. Sometimes
8 I would see him in town. But from his action, I think he was a deputy."
9 A. Possibly he was a deputy.
10 Q. I didn't finish the question. But under whose -- whose deputy was
12 A. Probably the deputy of Simo Zaric.
13 Q. You only believe so, but you don't know that as a fact?
14 A. I believe.
15 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, do you know Jovo Savic, a reserve captain of the
17 A. I don't know who Jovo Savic is.
18 Q. Do you know that Simo Zaric has a rank of First Lieutenant and was
19 in charge -- has a rank of Sergeant First-Class and was in charge of the
20 morale and security in the army?
21 A. No, I don't know those details.
22 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, you were never present when Mr. Stevan Nikolic had
23 a conversation with Radovan Antic, were you?
24 A. No, I was never present.
25 Q. And you also never attended any conversations between Lieutenant
1 Colonel Nikolic and Mr. Simo Zaric?
2 A. Yes, I was in Brcko [as interpreted].
3 JUDGE MUMBA: The answer of the witness is not clear. Can the
4 witness explain? Because it says: "Yes, I was in Brcko." Does he mean
5 he didn't attend -- he didn't listen to any conversations between the two,
6 Colonel Nikolic and Simo Zaric, because he was in Brcko?
7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I will clarify that, Your Honour.
8 Q. We are still now referring to the time period before April 17th,
9 1992. Up until that day, were you ever present when any conversation took
10 place between Lieutenant Colonel Stevan Nikolic and Mr. Simo Zaric?
11 A. No, I was never present.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
13 MS. REIDY: With respect, maybe I can save it for re-exam, but
14 I don't think Your Honour's question has been answered. The witness said:
15 "Yes, I was in Brcko," and you sought further clarification on that, and
16 then Mr. Pisarevic asked a slightly different question about a time
17 period. And perhaps the witness could explain to you what he meant by
18 "Yes, I was in Brcko" so that's clear. I can save it for re-exam
19 but I think that we've been led astray by the next question rather than
20 clarify the witness's original answer.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Because at one time I thought he was saying, "No. I
22 was in Brcko."
23 But let's clear it again, Mr. Pisarevic.
24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, you saw what the problem was all about. According
1 to your statement, you saw Lieutenant Colonel Stevan Nikolic on the 27th
2 of April, 1992, in the garrison of Brcko, for the first time, when
3 Mr. Zaric was present as well.
4 A. Yes, that's what I stated.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So maybe we've completed, so --
6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it's all
7 clear now.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. In Brcko, when the two -- Simo Zaric
9 and Nikolic were present, and the witness saw them, did he hear any
10 conversation between the two of them?
11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, on that occasion, when you were in the Brcko
13 garrison, meaning on the 27th of April, 1992, where you claimed Lieutenant
14 Colonel Nikolic and Mr. Simo Zaric were, were you able to hear what they
15 were talking about and what was the topic of their conversation? Please
16 tell the Trial Chamber.
17 A. I put that in my statement.
18 Q. Yes, that's correct. I know you put it in your statement and
19 described that event, but I was going to ask you about that later on.
20 However, the Trial Chamber wanted a clarification, so can you please
21 explain it now, and then we will go into details later on. So please
22 briefly explain.
23 A. Simo Zaric went to see Nikolic, to take me back to Samac. That's
24 what the conversation was all about.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you. Because then the transcript
1 becomes clearer.
2 Yes, Mr. Pisarevic, you can go ahead.
3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, have you ever seen, with your own eyes, Mr. Simo
5 Zaric distribute or bring in weapons into Bosanski Samac?
6 A. No, I've never seen that, and I have no knowledge about how they
7 armed themselves. I know that it went through the army. You told me
8 yourself that they were in the army.
9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jasarevic, have you ever seen Lieutenant Colonel
10 Nikolic deliver and distribute weapons in Bosanski Samac?
11 A. No, I have not.
12 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to turn your attention to paragraph
13 16, right underneath, where you spoke about the establishment of the 4th
14 Detachment, its members, and so on. That's all fine, everything you
15 stated here. But let me ask you another question.
16 Mr. Jasarevic, you must know that in the 4th Detachment of the
17 JNA, in addition to Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, there were also members of
18 other ethnic groups, such as Montenegrins, Albanians, Bulgarians,
19 Macedonians, Roma. Yes or no, please.
20 A. I didn't know that there were that many Albanians, Bulgarians,
21 Romas, in Samac. I didn't know about that.
22 Q. Do you know, for example, that Kolev Koce, a member of the 4th
23 Detachment, was of Bulgarian ethnicity?
24 A. Well, I don't know how that came about. He could only be a
25 Bulgarian from Bulgaria. He could not be of Bulgarian ethnicity.
1 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, a graduate of informatics [As interpreted]
2 Mr. Kolev Koce, lived in Bosanski Samac, didn't he?
3 A. Yes, he did.
4 Q. Do you know that he is of Bulgarian ethnicity?
5 A. No, I didn't know about that.
6 Q. Now, please turn the page and focus on paragraph 17. I will read
7 just a segment of it, where you said that one of these meetings was
8 organised on the main square, not more than seven days before the takeover
9 in town. It is on line 6. Have I read this accurately? One of these
10 gatherings. I see you don't have your glasses on. Perhaps that's what
11 causes the problem. And then you go on to say, towards the end:
12 "At the gathering, Simo said something like: My 4th Detachment
13 will protect Bosanski Samac from external forces."
14 Do you remember stating this?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. My first question concerning this is: Were you present at that
18 A. Yes, I was.
19 Q. Can we agree that that gathering was held on the 11th of April,
20 1992, beginning somewhere around 10.00?
21 A. I don't know the exact date, but I was at that gathering. First
22 we went to the municipal building, put our flags, and then the rally
23 followed on the square.
24 Q. Was that in the morning hours?
25 A. I don't know the exact time of the day.
1 Q. Was it in the afternoon?
2 A. No, it was not in the afternoon; at least, I don't think so.
3 Q. Do you remember that Dr. Mensur Nogic, a Muslim from Bosanski
4 Samac, spoke at the rally?
5 A. Yes, I remember that.
6 Q. Do you remember that at the same gathering, Marko Filipovic, a
7 Croat, also spoke, who was a former head of criminal investigation
8 department in the police station in Samac?
9 A. Yes, but he was in prison together with other Croats.
10 Q. All I'm asking you is whether he spoke.
11 A. Yes, he did.
12 Q. All right. Will you please just answer my questions, and we will
13 get to everything else later on.
14 Do you remember that Ms. Porobic Suhreta, called Suhra, a Muslim,
15 also spoke at the rally on behalf of the unions of Bosanski Samac?
16 A. It is possible; however, I don't recall all of the speakers.
17 Q. All right. Do you remember that Salkic Ibrahim, called Ibela,
18 also addressed the audience at the rally?
19 A. Yes, I remember.
20 Q. And do you remember the moment when a policeman, Trakosevic
21 Ibrahim, informed the audience that the police in Bosanski Samac will
22 remain indivisible and united?
23 A. Yes, I remember that it was mentioned.
24 Q. All right, Mr. Jasarevic. Well, now that we've refreshed our
25 memory concerning this rally, will you still continue to claim that
1 Mr. Simo Zaric also spoke at that rally?
2 A. Yes, he did. Should I give you details?
3 Q. All right. Well, let's take it slowly. However, Mr. Jasarevic,
4 my client claims that he did not speak at that rally. It is true, and it
5 is not contentious, that Mr. Zaric spoke on numerous occasions, in the
6 media and on rallies, and that he mentioned the fact that the 4th
7 Detachment would defend Bosanski Samac from all kinds of enemies. You
8 know that, don't you?
9 A. Yes. That's what I stated.
10 Q. All right. Let's take a look at paragraph 18, where you stated
11 that there was at least one incident in town between this detachment and
12 the police. And then you go on to say that there was this unfortunate
13 event. And I want to ask you several things regarding that event.
14 Can you confirm the fact that this event involved three residents
15 in civilian clothes, in civilian vehicle, and the reserve patrol of the
16 Bosanski Samac police?
17 A. These civilians also had automatic weapons.
18 Q. But they still wore civilian clothes and drove in a civilian car?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And can we agree that this took place on the 2nd of April, 1992,
21 or around that day? I know you have trouble remembering the exact dates.
22 A. Yes, about there. All of those civilians were members of the 4th
23 Detachment. All of these civilians were members of the 4th Detachment.
24 Q. Yes. We've heard that, and it will be recorded. Have no fear.
25 My question was whether you knew or whether you could confirm that that
1 took place on the 2nd of April, 1992.
2 A. It is possible. I told you, I didn't know the exact date, but I
3 know it was in the evening hours and that I was at home.
4 Q. Now that you have mentioned that these individuals were members of
5 the 4th Detachment, were you, Mr. Jasarevic, ever in the position to see a
6 list of members of the 4th Detachment of the JNA?
7 A. No, I never saw that list.
8 Q. Were you in the position, Mr. Jasarevic, to ever see the entire
9 unit of the 4th Detachment all lined up in one place?
10 A. No, and I didn't state anything of that kind in my statement.
11 Q. Can we then agree that you supposed that these people were members
12 of the 4th Detachment?
13 A. I don't suppose so; I know that they were members of the 4th
15 Q. In order to continue discussing this event with you, would you
16 please answer whether you were an eyewitness to this event.
17 A. No, I was not an eyewitness, but I came immediately thereafter.
18 Q. So that means that all you know about this event was acquired
19 after the fact, after the event?
20 A. Yes, after the event.
21 Q. You told us just now that these individuals were armed, although
22 they wore civilian clothes and drove in a civilian car. Did you see those
23 weapons at the scene, when you got there?
24 A. Yes, I did. One of them was wounded in his leg, and when they got
25 him out there was another automatic rifle in the car, the one with a
1 drum. I don't know what it is called.
2 Q. So you took a wounded man out of the civilian vehicle?
3 A. I was there when they were taking him out. I just got there.
4 Q. Did you take him out of the car or not?
5 A. No, I did not, but I was right there by the car from which they
6 were taking him out. He was wounded in his leg and was screaming.
7 Q. Can you tell me first and last name of the person whom you saw
8 being taken out of the vehicle?
9 A. He was a butcher from Bosanski Samac, and later on he died, I
10 think in Serbia.
11 Q. Can you confirm that it was Mersad Mesic, a butcher from
12 Bosanski Samac?
13 A. Yes, that's right. It was Mersad Mesic, a butcher from Bosanski
15 Q. Did you see any other weapons in the car in addition to the weapon
16 you described?
17 A. Fadil got the weapons, put it in the minivan. Fadil -- I can't
18 remember his last name. But anyway, he got the weapons, put it in the
19 minivan, and drove it off. He was killed in the camp later.
20 Q. Did you see that, how Fadil Sabanovic put some weapons in that
22 A. Yes, I did, and he drove the wounded man away.
23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that our
24 time is up.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll adjourn now and continue our proceedings
1 tomorrow at 9.00.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.45 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Friday, the 5th day of July,
4 2002, at 9.00 a.m.