Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11435

1 Thursday, 25 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and

9 Simo Zaric. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution is continuing.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

12 WITNESS: KEMAL BOBIC [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]

15 Q. Mr. Bobic, yesterday I was asking you questions about exchanges,

16 and discussion amongst prisoners on how to bring about the exchange, and

17 you answered that, in reply to a question regarding that there was an

18 agreement that it was a particular way to bring it about, you

19 said: "Mostly those who had money, they were exchanged." Do you have any

20 information as to whom they paid money in order to be exchanged?

21 A. I don't have any information regarding that. All I know pertains

22 to myself. I gave to the commander of the camp, Djoko Pajic, 500 German

23 marks to exchange me. However, I didn't do that and later on he was

24 replaced. Now he's living in Bijeljina. That's all I have to say.

25 Q. I'm not asking about yourself. I'm asking about others. Do you

Page 11436

1 have any information, anything that you heard from others, other

2 prisoners, other men who were detained with you as to whom payment was to

3 occur?

4 A. Well, you know what, there's always information circulating, but

5 they're frequently informal, so I really couldn't tell you anything about

6 who accepted money, when people were exchanged. I don't know that. I was

7 in the camp, as you say yourself, and certain people from the camp were

8 exchanged, but I didn't know anything about it while in the camp. There

9 were very strict rules in the camp. We couldn't talk among each other

10 frequently, we couldn't walk around. We had strict rules regarding when

11 we were allowed to go to the toilet and when we went to drink water. It

12 was all at specific times of the day.

13 Q. Thank you. All right.

14 Now, do you know a gentleman named Emin Gebic?

15 A. I do. Son of Hasib.

16 Q. Yes. Was he in custody with you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was he exchanged?

19 A. He was.

20 Q. Did he ever tell you how he went about getting or securing his

21 exchange?

22 A. He was exchanged and went to Orasje. I didn't keep in contact

23 with him. He didn't tell me anything in detail about giving money or

24 somebody accepting money. But there are many rumours, but what can I tell

25 you? Rumours and rumours and acts are acts.

Page 11437

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness, yesterday and today, said

3 that he did not have direct information, so I don't know why is the

4 Prosecutor insisting on this. The witness has confirmed once again that

5 he has no direct knowledge, and I don't think that this should be repeated

6 or insisted on, because the witness was quite clear on this matter.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I've gone as as far as I can on this topic.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio. Let's move on.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

10 Q. Now let's just return to the issue of your property and we'll wrap

11 up this examination-in-chief. You said -- I just want to re-establish two

12 things relating to your home. You said yesterday that this man,

13 Stevanovic, came along to the camp and that you signed that document

14 giving him a power of attorney and that you did so because, naturally

15 enough, you felt under very considerable pressure. That is so, is it not?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Thank you. Using that power of attorney, he dealt with and

18 disposed of your property; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. You had to initiate legal proceedings in order to

21 recover that property; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. You have had some success in doing so, but not

24 complete success yet?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11438

1 Q. Thank you. That's all I wanted to establish in respect of the

2 property.

3 Now, earlier in your testimony you mentioned some other properties

4 that you had, the general store, Ideal or Ideal, held in the name of your

5 niece Nermina. Have you been able to recover that?

6 A. Yes, I have.

7 Q. Did you have to actually take legal steps in order to do so or was

8 that a fairly simple matter?

9 A. It wasn't a simple matter. They called me after ten years and

10 they returned my entire property in Bosanski Samac, but, however,

11 everything has been stolen and destroyed, so I can't live in there any

12 more. I would need a lot of money, some 50.000 or 60.000 German marks to

13 improve the condition of it.

14 Q. Thank you. The property that was in the shop, in the general

15 store, is that all gone?

16 A. Everything.

17 Q. Thank you. Next the pharmacy, which was held in Enver's name.

18 Have you been able to recover that?

19 A. Yes, but everything was taken away.

20 Q. Thank you. What about the video rental shop? Have you been able

21 to recover that?

22 A. Yes. That was all recovered, together with the shop. However,

23 the interior has been emptied: The video cassettes, the VCRs and so on.

24 Q. Thank you. What about the cafe Sedrvan?

25 A. The Sedrvan cafe has been completely destroyed to the ground, and

Page 11439

1 everything in it was taken away. And then later on they blew it up. So

2 all that remains are tiles and a part of the fence. Everything else was

3 blown up.

4 Q. Have you ever received any compensation for the destruction of

5 your cafe?

6 A. No, I haven't received anything from anyone.

7 Q. Did you ever receive any rents for use of those properties that

8 I've asked you about, the shops and the cafe?

9 A. No, never. How can anyone pay me anything when everything has

10 been destroyed?

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... it -- when --

12 when talking about Sedrvan cafe, the witness said that -- well, it is

13 page 5, lines 1 to 4, only one addition. We heard that he said that his

14 neighbours told him that, and we don't see this in the transcript.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: At what stage? At the end of the answer?

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, at the end of the answer.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio, you can clear that with the witness.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. But I'm just not sure which answer. Sorry.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Page 5, lines 1 to 4.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry.

21 Q. Is it the case that you've been told the cafe, Sedrvan, has been

22 destroyed, that is, you've been informed of that fact by people, or have

23 you been there and actually seen the remains of it?

24 A. Yes, I saw it. I was in Samac to recover my property, and I saw

25 that it had been destroyed completely.

Page 11440

1 Q. Thank you. I asked you if whilst you were in custody you ever

2 received any information, notification, any official notification of what

3 it was that you had done to bring about your incarceration, and you said

4 you were never told. Following your release, has anyone ever told you why

5 it was that you were locked up for well over two years? And when I

6 say "told you," I mean in some sort of official capacity.

7 A. Well, that was obvious. I was locked up because I was a Muslim.

8 This is why they took me to the camp, not just me, but all of my fellow

9 citizens, Muslims and Croats. All of us were taken away the Sava River.

10 We were exchanged in Dragalici and elsewhere. We went to the camps.

11 People -- other people were deported. There is information to support

12 that. I was incarcerated for exactly two years and six months, and part

13 of it was unregistered. When I came to Batkovici, I was registered

14 there. So that's some two and a half years in total.

15 Q. I understand that. I understand that answer perfectly well, and I

16 have no quarrel with that evidence at all. But what I'm actually asking

17 is: Has anyone given you an official explanation? Has the government of

18 the Republika Srpska or the police in Bosanski Samac ever said to you or

19 given you a document following your release: "Look, this is the reason

20 why you were locked up: Insurrection, treason genocide," something like

21 that, anything at all?

22 A. No. In all of the places in Samac -- you're asking me about

23 Samac. I have brothers there. Two have died. I was arrested because I

24 was wealthy. They mostly arrested wealthy people and beat them so that as

25 to prevent them from ever coming back and in order to eradicate any trace

Page 11441

1 of them, so that they would teach you not to ever go back to Samac, and

2 Samac is my native town. This is where I was born. That's all. It is

3 very difficult for me.

4 Q. Thank you. And one last question: Prior to all of these events,

5 prior to the 16th of April and the 17th of April and everything that

6 followed, up until that point of time, had you had any plans or desire to

7 leave your town and the place where you were born and had lived all your

8 life?

9 A. I think that nobody on this planet would leave his or her native

10 town, regardless of which country they live in. People tend to go back to

11 their native towns. I lived in America for two and a half years. I was

12 South Dakota champion in chess. I played in a government tournament and I

13 was a champion there, and I was well taken care of there. But still, I

14 felt this need to go back to my native town, Samac. That's all.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: That's the end of the examination-in-chief?

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, it is. Thank you.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Cross-examination. Yes, Mr. Vukovic.

19 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

20 morning, my learned friends.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Vukovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bobic. My name is

23 Srdjan Vukovic. I am Defence counsel for Mr. Blagoje Simic, and I will be

24 conducting cross-examination.

25 I presume that the Prosecutor has explained to you what it will

Page 11442

1 look like. It will approximately look the same as the

2 examination-in-chief.

3 A. I was not told anything about that.

4 Q. But there is a small difference. You and I speak the same

5 language, and I would kindly ask you to make a small break after my

6 question so that we can give interpreters a chance to translate my

7 question and your answer.

8 Mr. Bobic, yesterday you stated to the Prosecutor that you joined

9 the SDA -- please wait for me to ask the question and then answer it. So

10 that you joined the SDA when the parties were established. Is that

11 right? You also stated before this Trial Chamber that you joined the SDA

12 in 1991. Is that correct?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. But, as far as I remember, political parties were founded and, and

15 multi-party elections were held in 1990.

16 A. Yes, but it was officially after the elections, once all the data

17 was verified.

18 Q. So can you please tell us: Did you become a member in 1990 or was

19 it in 1991?

20 A. It could be either way. I don't remember the exact date. It is

21 possible. But just to make it clear, I have been a member of the SDA from

22 the very beginning, and I can't tell you now exactly when it was founded.

23 All of the political parties were founded approximately in the same time

24 period, and I have been a member of that party -- of that party's board

25 from the very beginning.

Page 11443

1 Q. You also stated yesterday before this Trial Chamber that in the

2 SDA you were a member of the executive board.

3 A. Executive board?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Yes. There were seven of us when we established the board. It

6 was in the very beginning. That's correct. There's no doubt about that.

7 All of it was legal. The party itself was legally established. It was a

8 democratic party, which is further indicated by its name. It was called

9 the party of democratic action, SDA.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Vukovic, please avoid repeating

11 examination-in-chief, because all of these questions, the evidence was

12 given yesterday.

13 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Bobic, please tell us: What does the word "action" stand for?

15 A. What does the "action" stand for? You should know that yourself.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Bobic, counsel is asking questions on behalf of

17 the Trial Chamber, so please answer the questions. If you don't know, you

18 say so.

19 A. The Party of Democratic Action stands for the beginning

20 of -- "action" stands for the beginning of acting, "party" stands for

21 political party, and "democratic" stands for democratic. It was similar

22 for other parties, the SDS, with the HDZ, and there was also a party

23 called Croatian Democratic Movement, and the SDS stood for Serbian

24 Democratic Party, and there were also reformist parties, with

25 Mr. Kecmanovic, and so on.

Page 11444

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Please control the flow of evidence. We don't need

2 all these details.

3 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand. Thank you,

4 Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Bobic, please tell us: What activities did you perform as

6 member of the executive board of the SDA within your party?

7 A. You mean my activities? Well, we went to the mosque. We wanted

8 to look into establishing our organisations in town, because people

9 started segregating the Serbs, the Croats. They looked as -- it looked as

10 though we were together, but we were not. We had no minorities in Samac.

11 The Muslims were a majority, and we had our party platform, just like any

12 other party. Our platform did not include attacking somebody or entering

13 into arguments with anybody.

14 Q. Mr. Bobic, I have to interrupt you. Can you please tell me what

15 specific activities you carried out?

16 A. Well, I don't know what you have in mind when you

17 say "activities." It was a Muslim party called the SDA. It was the

18 party of Muslim people.

19 Q. No. What I have in mind is your personal activities, as members

20 of the executive board.

21 A. Well, I had no specific activities. What do you have in mind?

22 Q. You said that there were seven of you in the executive board?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us who else was there in the board?

25 A. There was Hakija Bobacic, Izet Izetbegovic. He was a relative of

Page 11445

1 Alija Izetbegovic, the president. Then myself, then Husein Ceribasic,

2 Aziz Pasic, and Abdulah Imsirovic. He was effendi and after the elections

3 Sulejman Tihic joined the party and became the chairman of the party.

4 Q. Mr. Bobic, can you tell me who was on the executive board in 1992?

5 A. All right. In 1992, Sulejman Tihic.

6 Q. He was the chairman, the president of the party, but can you tell

7 me who were the members of the executive board in 1992?

8 A. As far as I know, it was Hakija Babacic. I was never in the top

9 leadership. I was simply a member and a member of the board. They came

10 to my place to eat there, since I had a shop, a cafe. They would come to

11 Sedrvan to eat.

12 Q. Mr. Bobic, in your statement given to the Prosecutor in June of

13 this year, on page 2, in paragraph 5, you stated that as member of the

14 executive board, you assisted in fund-raising for the SDA?

15 A. Yes, that's correct. There's nothing contentious. But we could,

16 clarify what funds you are talking about.

17 Q. Well, I would like you to explain that.

18 A. All right. Well, I assisted financially. They would also come to

19 my place to eat, delegations of the SDA from Sarajevo. It was all in the

20 process of being established, just like in any other party.

21 Q. I would like to go back to one issue that you did not fully

22 explain. You didn't tell us who else was the member of the executive

23 board of the SDA in April of 1992.

24 A. So you want to hear the members?

25 Q. Yes. I want to hear who the members were.

Page 11446

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --

2 A. Well, I can't remember all that. You probably have the list. I

3 can't remember that now.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: -- objecting to the question, but we've already had

7 twice now two separate questions relating to the executive board. I don't

8 see the point in listing it for a third time. Perhaps the witness can be

9 asked to provide names of any additional members of those who might have

10 been there in 1992, otherwise we'll have the list again.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are going round and round, Mr. Vukovic.

12 You can put questions to him was it so-and-so, whatever name you think was

13 in the executive board and let the witness answer, because we're taking

14 too long on the membership of the SDA board.

15 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. However,

16 the witness gave us the names of the executive board members in 1990, so

17 he can remember that well, based on which, I believe, that he should also

18 be able to tell us who were the members in 1992. It is obvious that the

19 witness is avoiding answering that question.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not. I told you everything I

21 know. There's no problem there. The membership frequently changed, in

22 every party: In HDZ, in the SDS, and so on. Sulejman Tihic was not on

23 the board when I was there. He came there because we needed a lawyer who

24 could lead the party and he accepted that position.

25 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11447

1 Q. Mr. Bobic, I didn't ask you about Mr. Tihic. He was the chairman

2 of the party in 1992. I asked you about members of the executive board in

3 April of 1992.

4 A. He was before [Indiscernible] who then he replaced

5 Izet Izetbegovic. You know that. If you want to know more --

6 Q. No, no, no. I'm asking you for the last time who were members of

7 the executive board in 1992. I'm not asking about presidents; I'm asking

8 about members, apart from you.

9 A. Hakija Babacic.

10 Q. So the executive board had only two members?

11 A. No. The executive board had more people, you are asking me who

12 was in the leadership, so will you please clarify the questions.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. --

14 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll move on to another topic.

15 THE COURT: Do you have names of the members of the board, which

16 you should confront the witness with?

17 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. I will do that a

18 little later. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: It doesn't help us at all when you look at the

20 indictment, because if there are any activities that you wanted to allege,

21 you better put the matters directly to the witness. You know the

22 allegations against your client, and one would hope that you would spend

23 time dealing with cross-examination which will help his defence.

24 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Bobic, at the meetings of your party, did you talk about

Page 11448

1 procuring weapons?

2 A. We did not, because --

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bobic, on page 3 of your statement of June this

4 year, you said the following, paragraph 8:

5 "There was -- there had been some discussion in the SDA as to

6 whether we should try to get arms. Because of the war in Croatia and the

7 activities of the JNA."

8 A. No, nobody said that in the party. But yes, there was talk.

9 However, you can't take a rifle to attack a tank or somebody who hits you

10 from above.

11 Q. All I asked was whether the party discussed whether you should get

12 weapons for your party.

13 A. No. No -- yes, there was some talk, but not that we personally

14 should procure weapons.

15 Q. But were the arms obtained?

16 A. I left the party and the colleagues know it -- I mean the accused.

17 Q. Mr. Bobic, will you please try to only answer the questions.

18 A. I know nothing about that. That's enough.

19 Q. Mr. Bobic, do you know Mr. Hakija Babacic?

20 A. Of course I do. Professor. He was the manager of the

21 food-processing factory.

22 Q. Tell us: What is his ethnic origin?

23 A. Don't ask me such stupid questions, please. You know that Hakija

24 is a Muslim.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Bobic, just answer the questions put to you by

Page 11449

1 counsel. If the questions are not supposed to be put to you, the

2 Prosecution will object or the Trial Chamber will give instructions to

3 counsel. Don't be rude to counsel. You are in a court. Just answer the

4 questions. If you don't know the answers, say so.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a Muslim.

6 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Bobic, I'm asking you that for a very simple reason, that

8 members of the Chamber are people who are not our nationals, either of

9 your country or mine, and they do not know that. I'm asking you that

10 merely so that we can inform the Chamber.

11 A. I apologise to the Chamber.

12 Q. Mr. Bobic, I know what the ethnic origin of Mr. Hakija is. What

13 we are doing here is for the Chamber.

14 A. Yes, but you have to explain it to me, and no problem.

15 Q. Tell us: What did Mr. Hakija do in the executive board?

16 A. He was the vice-president.

17 Q. Do you know Mr. Midhat Somtic [phoen]?

18 A. Contic. Yes, I know him, but he died.

19 Q. And what was his ethnic origin?

20 A. Muslim.

21 Q. And what were his duties in the SDA?

22 A. He was simply on the board, didn't have any special duties.

23 Q. Mr. Bobic, we received information from the top leadership of your

24 party that you, together with Mr. Babacic and Mr. Contic, were the chief

25 advocates of the armament of Muslims and members of the SDA; is that true?

Page 11450

1 [Realtime transcript omitted words"chief advocates" and"armament"]

2 A. No, it is not. When the armament started, I left the board. You

3 should know that. That is the question.

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Vukovic. The interpreters didn't

5 catch, neither did I hear, the translation when you said that Mr. Bobic,

6 along with the other two gentlemen, were the chief -- and then we have a

7 blank of the blank of the SDA; is that true? That's line 2 of page 16.

8 What were you actually asking him? Were the chief what?

9 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll explain it right away,

10 Your Honour. I asked Mr. Bobic -- I told Mr. Bobic that we had

11 information from the ground, from the topmost leadership of the SDA party,

12 that this witness, together with Mr. Babacic and Mr. Contic, were the

13 principal advocates of the armament of Muslims in the SDA.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.

15 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Bobic, tell us: Was Hakija Babacic a national of the B and H?

17 A. Hakija Babacic is a Yugoslav. I think he's a Yugoslav. He comes

18 from Kruskovo Polje, from Montenegro or something. But he was involved

19 for a long time -- now, I don't know how long, but he spent many years in

20 Samac. He has lived in Samac for a long time. He lived in Samac for 10,

21 15 years in the former Yugoslavia. Of course, I don't know when everybody

22 came to Samac.

23 Q. Did he perhaps come from Sandzak, that is, the south of Serbia?

24 A. No, he's not from Sandzak, but I cannot recall where he came

25 from. I think he said he was from Vitromirica, if there is a place like

Page 11451

1 that.

2 Q. Fine. Thank you.

3 A. Would that be all right?

4 Q. Yes, it would.

5 Mr. Bobic, did the SDA set up its Crisis Staff?

6 A. I do not know that, because I --

7 Q. No. My only question is whether it formed this Crisis Staff?

8 A. No, not while I was in it. I know there was Territorial Defence

9 in Samac.

10 Q. Just a moment.

11 A. There were Serbs, Muslims, and Croats there.

12 Q. After you left it, was the Crisis Staff established then?

13 A. I don't know. I am not aware of that.

14 Q. In the -- did the SDA draw up its wartime plan?

15 A. I don't know that either. Perhaps it did, but I wasn't there, so

16 I cannot say yes or no.

17 Q. Can we generally agree that the SDA set up certain sections, such

18 as, for instance, supply service, monitoring service, observation service?

19 A. No, not whilst I was there. There were people who helped.

20 Q. Yes. Tell us: What did they help with?

21 A. I've already said that I helped the party, that I donated funds.

22 Q. No. I mean you said assistance, and I asked you what you meant by

23 this.

24 A. I told you that.

25 Q. Did anybody help with obtaining weapons?

Page 11452

1 A. I don't know that, no.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Vukovic, you should also pause and allow the

3 witness to answer, so that we don't have a problem with the record.

4 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Bobic, as far as I could gather from your testimony, you

6 remained on the board as its member -- just wait until I finish my

7 question -- but later -- at the later stage, that is, prior to the 17th of

8 April, you did not actively participate in the work of the party.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. However, you went on living in Samac and working there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And people continued to patronise your restaurant?

13 A. Yes, of all ethnicities.

14 Q. Mr. Bobic, you are aware, being a member of the SDA, that

15 Alija Fitozovic and Izet Izetbegovic obtained a considerable quantity of

16 explosives and weapons for members of your party, aren't you?

17 A. You said a moment ago that I quit the board, that I was not

18 active, and now you are contradicting yourself. So let's try and help

19 these people here. I didn't know -- I wasn't aware of that, nor did I

20 know anything about it.

21 Q. Thank you. However, Mr. Bobic, in your statement that you gave to

22 the Tribunal in June this year, you said the following, passage 8:

23 "I heard that Alija Fitozovic allegedly bought weapons in

24 Croatia."

25 A. Well, perhaps I did say that, perhaps I didn't.

Page 11453

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There are two counsels from the Prosecution,

2 which shows that it's a strong objection.

3 MR. PANTELIC: And I'm here just for the ...

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

5 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, the reason we both jumped up is because I

6 was waiting to see if counsel would read out the whole sentence, and I

7 jumped up because I was, of course, the person who took the statement in

8 2002, and I had put a question to the witness and this is how he answered

9 me. I specifically elicited this information. And the full statement is

10 not what's on the record. It is:

11 "I heard that Alija Fitozovic may have bought weapons in Croatia,

12 but I know nothing about it."

13 And that's what he said. And I think if that's put on the record,

14 the Bench will understand this man's testimony here today is the same as

15 it was in June. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Vukovic, is that the correct quotation?

17 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

18 Q. Mr. Bobic, you said that you had heard that Alija Fitozovic may

19 have bought weapons. So tell us: Who did you hear it from?

20 A. Well, those could have been rumours around in Samac. These here

21 are arming themselves or those over there are arming themselves, but this

22 is all unofficial. That is what I said in the statement. I'm telling you

23 that I was no longer holding any duties because I was preparing a new shop

24 before the war.

25 Q. Yes, yes, yes. You've explained it to us already. There is no

Page 11454

1 need to go into that again. However, you told us, and you stated that

2 too, you continued living and working in Samac, didn't you?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Vukovic, you are repeating yourself. I'm

4 wondering whether you have any cross-examination which touches the defence

5 of your client.

6 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Avoid repeating yourself, avoid the

8 examination-in-chief.

9 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Your Honour, but

10 the witness is evading answering certain questions, and I thus have to

11 take the witness into this matter, but --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: That's not the view of the Trial Chamber. The

13 witness is answering. When he doesn't know, he says so. He left the

14 party. He doesn't know what was going on. And that's it. He's not

15 evading. He's giving answers. Please proceed.

16 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Your Honour, but

17 I'm asking the witness about events in the town.

18 Q. Mr. Bobic, did the SDA put up barricades in the town of Samac?

19 A. No, it did not. Those were barricades which were --

20 Q. No, no, no. My only question was whether the SDA put up any

21 barricades.

22 A. No. It was the Territorial Defence which put them up, and you all

23 know that.

24 Q. Did the SDA organise patrols in Samac?

25 A. I don't know. I told the Court that my son had been killed, and I

Page 11455

1 stopped being active at the time, and I do not know what went on at that

2 time, so don't make me lie here. I cannot lie.

3 Q. Mr. Bobic, I apologise.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness not speak over

5 each other.

6 A. I cannot lie about what I do not know.

7 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Bobic, did you see any armed patrols in the town? Yes or no.

9 A. No, I did not see them. I don't know if somebody else did.

10 Q. Mr. Bobic, can we agree about a certain fact --

11 A. Yes, go on.

12 Q. -- that in the period of time preceding the hostilities, a few

13 months before that, the arming of citizens, of inhabitants of Samac began,

14 namely, Muslims and Croats and Serbs alike?

15 A. I said it a moment ago: We had a multi-ethnic Territorial

16 Defence, and that is true. There were Serbs and Muslims and Croats

17 together as the defence of the town. Yes. Fine.

18 Q. Mr. Bobic, will you please listen to what I'm asking you.

19 A. I've answered your question.

20 Q. I asked you about citizens of Samac, not about the Territorial

21 Defence.

22 A. No, they did not. Again, as far as I know.

23 Q. Mr. Bobic, in your statement that you gave to the Tribunal in June

24 2002, on page 3 and page 4 --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: If you mean the statement the witness gave to the

Page 11456

1 Prosecution ...

2 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] That is right, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: It's important to be precise.

4 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In paragraph 10, you explain how, unfortunately, that tragic event

6 took place in the Valentino coffee bar, and after that you say:

7 "I believe that that incident brought about intensified armament

8 of the population because people felt under attack."

9 Did you say that or didn't you?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer?

11 A. It probably happened then.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters didn't catch your answer.

13 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Bobic, could you please repeat your answer?

15 A. After my son was killed on the 14th of February, in Valentino, for

16 unknown reasons, there were all the indicia, that he had brought the

17 grenade to the coffee bar --

18 Q. I'm not asking you that. I don't want to ask you --

19 THE INTERPRETER: The witness and the counsel are speaking at the

20 same time.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Vukovic, we're having problems with the

22 interpreters because you are speaking over each other. And I think the

23 question to your answer was given, yes, in line 12, page 22.

24 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I meant only because the

25 interpreters had said that it was not in, and I merely wanted to have it

Page 11457

1 repeated.

2 Q. Mr. Bobic, can we agree that at that time in Samac high tension

3 reigned between ethnic groups?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'd like to ask you if you can come closer to the microphone.

6 A. Fine with me.

7 Q. I'd like to move on now to events immediately after the beginning

8 of the hostilities. Two or three days after April 17th, you and your

9 family moved over to your neighbours', Nogic's?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Tell us: That day when you moved over to your neighbour, to

12 Nogic's, was Samac shelled?

13 A. Shells were falling. I don't know where they came from. But yes,

14 shells were hitting certain areas. That was why we took shelter at

15 Nogic's.

16 Q. So Samac was shelled? Yes or no.

17 A. Why, it wasn't all that bad, but there were shells falling.

18 Q. Mr. Bobic, I'd like to ask you to explain to the Chamber: How far

19 is your house from the bank of the Sava, roughly?

20 A. About 150 metres.

21 Q. And from the other side of the bridge over the Sava River --

22 A. One kilometre, as the crow flies. I mean --

23 Q. Mr. Bobic, I haven't finished my question. Will you please wait?

24 From the other bank, across the bridge over the Sava, is the Republic of

25 Croatia?

Page 11458

1 A. That's right. Slavonski Samac.

2 Q. Will you please explain to the Chamber: How far is your house

3 from the Bosna River?

4 A. Well, I never measured it.

5 Q. Roughly.

6 A. Five hundred, six hundred metres, thereabouts, perhaps a little --

7 give or take.

8 Q. And the other side is --

9 A. Prud.

10 Q. Thank you. I was about to ask you that.

11 From the direction of Slavonski Samac and Prud, was the artillery

12 firing at Samac from that direction?

13 A. I can't tell you for sure. I don't know. Perhaps it did, perhaps

14 it didn't. There were all kinds of rumours. It probably did. It is more

15 likely, at least I believe so, that it did, because it was on both sides.

16 Serbs and Croats fired at Bosnia, because -- at least that's what I heard,

17 because some houses were destroyed there.

18 Q. Mr. Bobic, two or three days later, after the shelling, was there

19 electricity and water supply in Samac?

20 A. Yes. We had water supply, but electricity would go off

21 occasionally, and then the same would apply to water. And Muslims, and I

22 myself, did not have electricity. I don't know about Serb houses. But I

23 also know that we had no telephone lines, no communication.

24 Q. All I asked you was water and electricity.

25 A. Well, occasionally. Sometimes we would have an outage and

Page 11459

1 sometimes we would have regular supply.

2 Q. But can we agree that water and electricity were not supplied to

3 all of the citizens?

4 A. Yes, to all. But I have to say that we did not have telephone

5 lines and we did not have electrical power. There were occasional outages

6 due to shelling.

7 Q. However, but despite that, the population had regular supply of

8 bread and milk; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Mr. Bobic, yesterday you stated before this Trial Chamber that you

11 learned that you had to wear white armbands upon leaving your house?

12 A. Yes, when we went out.

13 Q. You even told us what they looked like?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, can you please explain to the Trial Chamber: Who did you

16 learn this from?

17 A. It was announced on the radio that Samac was a Serb town, that

18 people leaving houses should have white armbands and they should not move

19 about in groups. There was a lady announcer. It was a female voice that

20 announced it.

21 Q. Mr. Bobic, who at the time was the editor of the radio station?

22 A. You mean in Samac?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. I think it was Novak Tenasije, and Stevan Stevic was the president

25 of the memorial hall, as far as I know. Is that enough?

Page 11460

1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bobic, you were taken, upon your arrest, to the

2 SUP building on the 23rd of May. That's what you told us. Can you tell

3 us: Why were you arrested?

4 A. I already replied to that.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: [Previous translation continues] ... on about

6 four --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: The witness is right. He has replied to it on

9 about four or five occasions. Never given a reason, not in the MUP, not

10 in the TO, not in Batkovici, nor ever since, as to the reason he spent two

11 years in prison.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: If counsel has got reasons, it's better to put them

13 directly to the witness, if counsel's instructions are that reasons were

14 given to the witness, then it's better to put it directly to the witness.

15 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Bobic, you gave a statement to a secret agency for

17 investigation and documentation?

18 A. Your question is not clear to me.

19 Q. It was on the 12th of March, 1998.

20 A. What agency do you have in mind? I didn't give a statement to any

21 agency. Your question is not clear to me. And what date it was? I

22 apologise. I misheard the date.

23 Q. You gave a statement to the Muslim agency which is known under the

24 acronym AID; it's, in fact, secret police.

25 A. I never gave such a statement. Give me the date.

Page 11461

1 Q. On the 12th of March, 1998.

2 A. I've never given such a statement, never. That's invented.

3 That's illegal. No.

4 Q. Mr. Bobic, this statement --

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Vukovic. Of course, I well

6 understand what AID is and where it's located, but for the sake of the

7 record, I don't think it's very clear to say: "You gave a statement to the

8 Muslim agency." It could be a Muslim agency in any country in the world

9 where there are Muslims. Can you just be specific, for clarity's sake?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If I may also pick up --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazios.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If I may also pick up from what follows from

13 Your Honour's proposition put to Mr. Vukovic. It also end with the

14 assertion that it's the secret police, and I think that if that's going to

15 be put to the witness -- sorry, if that comment is going to be made, it

16 should put fairly and squarely to the witness so he can say, "Oh, yes,

17 it's cloak and dagger stuff. They are the secret police." Or he can say:

18 No, that's complete nonsense" as well.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Vukovic. Please clarify your question.

20 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the document, or

21 rather, the statement, which the witness gave to the agency for

22 investigation and documentation, sectors AID, in Tuzla, on the 12th of

23 March, 1998, has been filed with this Tribunal by the Prosecution,

24 ERN number 00602426. I would like the usher to assist me to put this

25 statement to the witness.

Page 11462

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Can I see the document, please? I wonder if

2 Defence counsel can tell us the ERN number of the English translation, and

3 if they have an English translation.

4 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] We have not received the English

5 translation, and therefore I don't have the ERN number.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: So this document is only in Serbo-Croat?

7 MR. VUKOVIC: Yes, only in B/C/S version, because we didn't

8 receive from the Prosecution, the English version.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but if you knew that you are going to use it in

10 your cross-examination, why didn't you have it translated in English?

11 MR. VUKOVIC: Because the [Interpretation] Because the Prosecution

12 has the English version. I wasn't about to read from the statement. All

13 I wanted was to ask the witness whether he had signed the statement.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: That would be objected to because it would be

15 pointless. There's no point in asking him whether he signs a piece of

16 paper unless there's something in the piece of paper that's of use to the

17 Defence or to the Prosecution. But I certainly don't have the English

18 version. I'm not even aware of the existence of this document. So ...

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Defence prepared their cross-examination.

20 They knew that they were going to use this document. If that is their

21 intention, they should have made sure that --

22 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely, Your Honour. May I clarify this very

23 simple issue.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, clarify it, then.

25 MR. PANTELIC: We don't need into all these details. During the

Page 11463

1 preparation of the cross-examination of this witness, the Defence, of

2 course, was in possession of the Prosecution document. It was disclosed

3 to the Defence.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Although it was not in English. It's not a big

6 thing. Our opinion was that it is not in dispute that the Prosecution

7 will check everything with regard to this witness. Now we think that our

8 learned friends are a little bit surprised. So the bottom line,

9 Your Honour, is: It is not a question of the content of this statement.

10 No. It is not part of the cross-examination.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Then what is the point of it?

12 MR. PANTELIC: The point is one fact, one event, which arises from

13 various sources, including this document. And now this witness denying,

14 which is absolutely surprising for the Defence --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's --

16 MR. PANTELIC: And he simply should say whether you signed it or

17 not, simple as that, and then we shall proceed with other questions.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. In that case, then, can we have the passage,

19 the relevant passage, read slowly so that we have it on record,

20 translated?

21 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely. But I would kindly suggest,

22 Your Honour, first of all to clarify whether this witness signed this

23 document or not.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Very well. Go ahead.

25 MR. PANTELIC: And then we shall go with this passage.

Page 11464

1 Absolutely, I agree. Thank you very much for your attention, Your Honour.

2 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Bobic, have you signed this statement?

4 A. No, I've never signed this statement. There are thousands of my

5 signatures in Bosanski Samac, in the revenue office, in courts, and so

6 on. I think that this document here had been falsified. This is a

7 forgery.

8 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to put

9 the document on the ELMO so that the accused and the Trial Chamber can see

10 it. I would like to ask the usher to focus on the signature. The

11 signature can be found at the bottom of the page.

12 Q. Mr. Bobic, this statement was given to the Agency for

13 Investigation and Documentation -- Mr. Bobic, please let me finish --

14 sector AID, in Tuzla, and has been registered under number 5/8-02-260

15 [sic], on the 6th of March, 1998. I apologise, but there's been a mistake

16 in the transcript. It's not 260; it's 620.

17 Mr. Bobic, please take a look at every page and tell me whether

18 this is your signature. Is your signature on each page?

19 A. A signature can be falsified. This can be a forgery. There are

20 thousands of my signatures in Bosanski Samac.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Bobic, the question is simple. Check every

22 page. Is that your signature? And then answer. So you don't have to say

23 anything else; you simply answer the question.

24 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Bobic, on page 4, ERN number 602429, there is your signature

Page 11465

1 and your ID number issued by the public Security Service in Brcko. Is

2 that your ID card number?

3 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would ask the usher to put it

4 on the ELMO.

5 A. You mean this number 0060 -- and so on?

6 Q. No, no. I mean page 4.

7 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this be put on the ELMO, please,

8 the fourth page of this document, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.

9 Q. Mr. Bobic, can we continue?

10 A. What ID card number did you say? I can't see it here. The number

11 that I have here is 0 --

12 Q. What I'm asking you, Mr. Bobic, is whether, in 1998, you had an ID

13 card number 5508/97, and was it issued by the public security service in

14 Brcko?

15 A. The issue date that I have is 18th of December, 1997, and my card

16 was issued in Brcko. Here, you can take a look at it. This is the date

17 here.

18 Q. Mr. Bobic, can you please read out the number of your ID card?

19 A. The number is -- do you mean the date of issue or the registration

20 number? Which number do you mean? 19 --

21 Q. Mr. Bobic --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we get through this much faster than we are

23 doing.

24 MR. VUKOVIC: I'm trying, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness has produced an ID card --

Page 11466

1 MR. VUKOVIC: Yes, but refused to read the number.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: He hasn't refused. Yes. All I want to know:

3 Mr. Bobic, the card you are holding, is that your identification card?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: When did you get it?

6 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

7 MR. VUKOVIC: [No interpretation].

8 JUDGE MUMBA: There's no interpretation. We didn't get

9 interpretation in English.

10 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Bobic, please be so kind -- please put your ELMO -- put your

12 ID card on the ELMO, and please read out the registration number of your

13 ID card.

14 A. Shall I read it out?

15 Q. Please go ahead.

16 A. 5508/97.

17 Q. Now please be so kind and read out to us the number that we can

18 see on page 4 of your statement?

19 MR. DI FAZIO: We can see it's the same number. What's the point

20 of the question? I mean, 5508/97. What's the point of getting the

21 witness to read out what's obvious.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The counsel just wants to make sure that it's

23 the same number.

24 Yes, Mr. Vukovic.

25 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11467

1 Q. Mr. Bobic, are you still maintaining that the signatures on all

2 four pages of this statement are not yours, in fact? This was in 1998, in

3 Tuzla, is that right?

4 A. That's right. That was the statement on genocide, genocide

5 against Muslims in Tuzla. It was conducted by Rifat Karic and this had to

6 do with the genocide in Srebrenica. When I came back from America, they

7 located me in Tuzla and they interviewed me about the genocide in

8 Srebrenica, in Bosanski Samac, and generally in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 They interviewed me about that, because I spent a lot of time in the

10 camp. That's why. It wasn't clear to me. Because this refers to

11 genocide. It has nothing to do with politics, as you are implying. Or at

12 least maybe you're not implying, but that's how had I saw it. I have

13 proven that this is not true.

14 Q. Mr. Bobic, please take this statement and read out the heading

15 explaining to whom you gave the statement.

16 A. I gave it to Rifat Karic. I know that a hundred per cent. This

17 is a man who works on genocide issues. I know what I have signed.

18 Q. Mr. Bobic, please put page 1 on the ELMO.

19 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please assist us?

20 Q. Mr. Bobic, on page 1 of the statement, which has the ERN

21 number 00602426, in the last paragraph of your statement, you said this:

22 "Then Stevo Todorovic told me that I am the greatest culprit for

23 the fact that the war broke out in Bosanski Samac. After that, Todorovic

24 beat me with a baton and kicked me in my chest and so on."

25 Mr. Bobic, did you state this? Please, just a yes or no answer.

Page 11468

1 A. No, not that. I did state that Stevan Todorovic kicked me and

2 beat me in the chest. And why don't you read what is stated up there?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Bobic, this is just a passage out of this

4 statement which was read to you by counsel, and he asked you: "Did you

5 state that?" The answer should be yes or no. Do not argue with counsel.

6 Simply answer the questions.

7 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honours. Perhaps it

8 would be better if the witness himself read out this passage.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not necessary.

10 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Bobic, the judge asked you, and we are expecting you to give

12 us a yes or no answer.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's answer was not clear. It could be

14 yes or it could be no.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters are saying that the witness's

16 answer was not clear. It could be yes, it could be no.

17 Can you repeat your answer, Mr. Bobic?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will.

19 The first reply to that first sentence, where Stiv said that I was

20 to blame for the war in Bosanski Samac and that he beat me in my chest and

21 kicked me, and now he's asking me to say yes or no. And then that would

22 also imply an answer to this other bit, that he didn't beat me. But to

23 the other part, the answer is yes.

24 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Did you state this or not? Give us a simple answer.

Page 11469

1 A. Yes. But this is an ambiguous question.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Vukovic, proceed.

3 MR. VUKOVIC: Yes.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bobic, on page 2 of that same statement, with

5 the ERN number 00602427, in paragraph 2, you stated:

6 "On the 25th of May, 1992, I was once again summoned for an

7 interview, but on that occasion I was interrogated by Simo Bozic, a

8 lawyer, misdemeanour judge in Bosanski Samac. This interrogation was

9 conducted in the same office where I was taken on the first occasion for

10 an interview with Stevan Todorovic. Bozic told me that I was accused for

11 being a main supplier for the SDA in Bosanski Samac and that due to that,

12 I had to remain in prison, in the building of the public security

13 service."

14 Did you state this? Just briefly, yes or no, please.

15 A. No. Generally, no. No.

16 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we perhaps make

17 a break now and then --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] -- we could proceed after the break?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll take our break and continue at

21 1100 hours. I just want to know how much Mr. Vukovic --

22 MR. VUKOVIC: Ten minutes.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Ten minutes.

24 MR. VUKOVIC: Not more.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We shall continue at 1100 hours

Page 11470

1 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Vukovic.

4 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Q. Mr. Bobic, we don't have much time, and I will ask you only a few

6 short questions and then we shall be over with this part of the

7 cross-examination.

8 Please, will you answer my question briefly and clearly. Did you,

9 on the 12th of March, 1998, on the official premises in Brcko, give to

10 authorised officials of AID sector Tuzla, give any statement and sign it?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Mr. Bobic, on 3rd of April, 1998, you gave a statement to the OTP?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Vukovic, are you through with that --

14 MR. VUKOVIC: Other statement.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have it marked for identification only,

16 please?

17 MR. VUKOVIC: Yes. That's ERN -- no. This one.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Just while we're on that --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: -- topic, if Your Honours please --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe the document that's marked for

23 identification is dated the 16th of March. Mr. Vukovic put to the

24 witness: "Did you, on the 12th of March, give any statement?" I'm just

25 not sure. Is he talking about this statement or is he aware of statement.

Page 11471

1 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. The statement the witness was

2 discussing before break, what is the date?

3 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that my learned friend

4 wasn't -- didn't look at the statement properly. In the first paragraph.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Vukovic, you are the one who introduced --

6 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Seventh line --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: -- [Previous translation continues] ... -- I just

8 want to know what is the document dated and what is the title?

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Fine. I've got something that says 16th of

10 April -- 16th of March, 1998, and then I can see the 12th of March in the

11 body of the preamble.

12 All I want to know is this: Is that question that my learned

13 friend asked of the witness, he was referring to this statement in --

14 that's been marked for identification? And I think Mr. Vukovic can

15 confirm that. We're only talking about the one statement.

16 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That is one statement, which

17 was filed on the 16th of March, 1998, but the witness gave the statement

18 on the 12th of March, 1998. And the number under which the statement was

19 filed in the AID, sector Tuzla, is 5-8/02-620, and the ERN number is

20 00602426 in B/C/S.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Can we have the number, please, for

22 identification purposes?

23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be D49/1 ter ID.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

Page 11472

1 You can proceed, Mr. Vukovic.

2 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Bobic, to the Tribunal, that is, to the Prosecutor of the

4 Tribunal, you gave a statement on the 3rd of April, 1998. Do you remember

5 that?

6 A. I gave something to the Tribunal. Commissions came. I suppose

7 so.

8 Q. In the statement that you gave to the Tribunal on the 3rd of

9 April, 1998, on page with the ERN number 00637124 in B/C/S, and in English

10 it has the ERN number 602439 -- on that page, you explain how you were

11 exchanged on the 6th of October, 1994 and that at the same time some other

12 people were also exchanged. I will read out the names that you gave. Was

13 Kemal Mehinovic exchanged at the same time with you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Nesib Kapetanovic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mahmud Arapovic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Namik Arapovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Hasan Ceribasic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mujo Halilovic?

24 A. Yes, and brother Slavko -- Salko. Excuse me.

25 Q. Mirsad Jasarevic?

Page 11473

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Fuad Skenderovic.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Sead Mahic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And Muris Mahic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Bobic, are you aware if any of these individuals who were

9 exchanged at the same time as you were gave their statements to the agency

10 for investigation and documentation, short, AID, sector Tuzla?

11 A. No, I'm not aware of that. Mujo lives in America. I don't know,

12 really. I have no contact with them.

13 Q. Only a short question: At the time when you gave your statement,

14 was any of them there to give his statement at the same time? And that is

15 my last question.

16 A. We gave our statements after we were exchanged in Sarajevo.

17 Q. All together?

18 A. Yes. In Sarajevo, after the exchange, we gave statements at the

19 SUP, and perhaps there is some confusion about that, because all of us who

20 were exchanged from Samac, we gave statements then, in Sarajevo.

21 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

22 MR. VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have finished my

23 cross-examination.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

Page 11474

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bobic. I'm Novak Lukic, and I

3 will now ask you questions on behalf of the accused Miroslav Tadic. I

4 will tell you straight away that my questions will have to do with two or

5 three subjects only, and I will not go into any of your disagreeable

6 memories, even though all of it must be of that nature.

7 Could we look at the map that we've already used in this Court?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I want the witness to look at that

9 map. But we need an unmarked, a clean copy of that document, D27/3, which

10 we have already used. And when the witness says that he can find his

11 bearing there, this is the map of the town of Bosanski Samac.

12 I will then ask him to mark three places, that is, his house, the

13 house that he found shelter at Nogic's, and the place where his coffee

14 bar -- where his restaurant was. So I want the usher to show this map to

15 the Prosecutor so that they can see that the map is unmarked, and then we

16 shall ask the witness to see if he can find his way around the map.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: And please, can you ask him to mark with numbers?

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Have a look at the map, Mr. Bobic. We've already used this map in

20 these proceedings. Perhaps it would be better if you take and put it in

21 front of you, and then we'll put it on the ELMO later on.

22 So what I'd like to know, and I will ask you to mark it, if you

23 can identify the location of your house. You told us that it was on Lola

24 Ribar Street. Where was the house that belonged to Nogics, where you took

25 shelter in the early days of the war, and where was your restaurant? If

Page 11475

1 you can do that, then --

2 A. Just a moment. You know what? I apologise, but I can't really

3 get my bearings here, because the streets have been changed, and these are

4 only squares. So I show Marsala Tito here --

5 Q. Can you put it on the ELMO and take the pointer? And if you can't

6 find your way around it, I won't insist on it, if you're not sure.

7 A. Perhaps you go to my house like, this from the police, then you

8 take the first street to the left, not the one towards the memorial

9 building but somewhere here, and then you -- and there is a crossroads.

10 I've already explained that. A big one. Which takes you over -- I've

11 forgotten the streets, I know the first one was called Marsala Tito, the

12 second was Ivo Lola Ribar, the third was Pere Bosica, I think, then

13 Vuk Karadzic. I don't know.

14 But as you come out, then you head in my direction, and my

15 neighbour Vlajko and his brother Miro -- there is this crossroads, and my

16 house is straight behind here. This -- my -- is the second one, if that

17 is correct here. Then my house should be here. So you don't -- you don't

18 head for the memorial centre, but you go to SUP and then the first street

19 and then the first to the left is Nogic's house and my house is right next

20 to it, and there is this crossroads.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We don't need to identify it any

22 more, because obviously the witness says he cannot really find his way

23 around it, but if we can ask him to explain it, I think it will be better.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. There's no use using the map which

25 the witness cannot read.

Page 11476

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Here is what I'd like to know, Mr. Bobic: You said that you took

3 shelter in Mr. Nogic's house. Yesterday you mentioned Mesud Nogic. Was

4 that the house, Mesud Nogic's where you found shelter or Idriz Nogic's?

5 A. Idriz's house, because Dr. Mesud Nogic built another house, and

6 the former was my neighbour. So this was the joint house. But then he

7 built his other house and moved over there.

8 Q. But this is what I wanted to clear up. So this is Idriz Nogic's

9 house that you went to, the old house?

10 A. Yes, correct.

11 Q. Thank you. You gave a statement, you already told us, Mr. Vukovic

12 showed you, in 1998. You gave the statement to the OTP. And I noticed

13 that this statement -- I must say, I was impressed by the large number of

14 names and other information that at that time you gave to the OTP.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm referring to --

17 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour. So the witness doesn't get

18 confused because I can foresee here getting into a problem. Mr. Lukic has

19 said -- Mr. Vukovic showed you -- Mr. Vukovic did not show the witness any

20 statement apart from the one that says it was taken by the AID Tuzla. So

21 I don't want the witness to think that that witness -- that document that

22 he was shown is the one that now Mr. Lukic is talking about.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think --

24 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... -- that he

Page 11477

1 referred to it but he didn't show it to the witness, so please do lead the

2 witness correctly.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Your Honours.

4 I'm sorry. Yes. Mr. Vukovic merely mentioned that statement.

5 Q. But now I will only briefly address this statement which you gave

6 to the OTP on the 3rd of April, 1998 and which you signed. I said that I

7 noticed that you mentioned quite a number of names in the text. Mr.

8 Vukovic has read out to you the names, and you told that those were the

9 people who were exchanged at the same time as you were. However, in this

10 statement I did not see you mention anywhere Cvijetin Stevanovic --

11 Stjepanovic [As interpreted].

12 Do you remember, you speak about this incident, how he came to you

13 in Batkovici and about the document that you signed. Did you

14 then speak to the representatives of the OTP at that time?

15 A. There was no need for me to speak about that, because I could not

16 enter the so-called Serb Republic, so that I had no contact, and I believe

17 it is clear. As soon as I established a contact, then --

18 Q. Did you know this Cvijetin Stevanovic from before he came to

19 Batkovici?

20 A. No. He lived in Loncari, in Samac, Loncari, quite far from me.

21 Q. Yesterday, on page 83 of the transcript, you said that when he

22 came, you said: "I know this man."

23 A. Everybody knew me, everybody who lived there knew me, because I

24 had my shop and music and people knew me in Modrica, in Odzak, and other

25 places. People used to come to my restaurant for dinner, so that

Page 11478

1 everybody knew me.

2 Q. You also said that there was a lady lawyer with him. I'd like to

3 know if your wife also came with them, Ediba. Was she there?

4 A. Not the first time, no, I can't remember. She did come with him

5 once. I'll find it for you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the witness looking for?

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yesterday the witness said to my

8 learned friend that he had another document in addition to the other one,

9 and I merely wanted to see what is this other document and wanted to see

10 if that is the document that the Prosecutor has disclosed to us or whether

11 it is some other document.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In relation to this case.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] He mentioned it yesterday to the

14 Prosecutor, but he said -- he mentioned a document, and I simply do not

15 know whether it is a different document.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a document --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the witness said anything, Ms. Reidy.

18 MS. REIDY: I think if you looked look at the record, the witness

19 explained he brought the original of the document that was tendered, I

20 think it's P135 into evidence. He had the original here and he explained

21 that to the Chamber. He then said he also had a -- there was another

22 document which existed which related --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, please, Ms. Reidy.

24 MS. REIDY: Certainly. I'm sorry.

25 The witness then said he had another document which related to his

Page 11479

1 sister's property, that it was also taken away, but the witness made clear

2 that he had the original of P136 with him and that's what he went to get.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let's get on, then.

4 Mr. Lukic.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't need the original, because we

6 accepted this document P136 [as interpreted]. My question concerned your

7 wife, and we'll come back to the comment later. But you said on that

8 occasion when he came with this lady lawyer that your wife wasn't there,

9 on that occasion.

10 A. I can't really remember. She came once. She came once, but I

11 can't remember whether it was with him. You know, I was in the camp. I

12 was all lost. I do remember that she came once. She went to Bijeljina,

13 Goran Blagojevic, I think it's his name, and he gave her the authorisation

14 in writing to visit me.

15 Q. My question is very simple. If you don't remember, say so. Do

16 you remember if, when she came to visit you in Batkovici, was that before

17 you signed the document for this Cvijetin or after that? If you do not

18 remember, I won't insist on it.

19 A. I can't remember. After all, it was 11 years ago.

20 Q. Now, what my learned friend has said and what you said, you said

21 that you had a document with you which had to do with your wife's sister,

22 Amira, and I also suppose it has to do with this Cvijetin Stevanovic.

23 Now, if you have this document, I'd like to see it.

24 A. Here you are.

25 Q. Well, perhaps it will be better if you put it on the ELMO.

Page 11480

1 Now, could we have the upper part of the document, please? Could

2 we -- could we simply -- so that we can see what this is about. And now

3 if you can move it up a little bit so that we can see the signatures.

4 A. You see here he forced all -- he forced women to sign this.

5 Q. Perhaps it wouldn't be bad if the Prosecution could supply us with

6 a copy of this document. All I can do is confirm that it is the same

7 power of attorney issued to the name of Mr. Kemal Bobic except that here

8 it also covers his sister-in-law and his -- and her two daughters and it

9 is of the same date, the 6th of October, 1993.

10 A. Yes, the same day when I write it.

11 Q. I suppose it was the matter of joint property?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So now can we see the stamp? Can we see the other side, please,

14 the other side of the document?

15 Could you read out to us -- what does this round seal say?

16 A. "Republika Srpska, basic court in Brcko, Brcko."

17 Q. And the date?

18 A. The date is the same. 10th of June, 1993.

19 Q. Can we agree that it is the 6th of October, 1993?

20 A. Brcko, 6th of October, 1993.

21 Q. So it is the same power of attorney, say like the one that you

22 wrote -- that you signed for Cvijetin except that it was signed by these

23 ladies?

24 A. Yes. It was in Samac, and then he came to Brcko with me with

25 this.

Page 11481

1 Q. Do you perhaps have a copy of this power of attorney with you

2 where Amira -- which Amira gave him for this property?

3 A. No, I don't. I just happened to bring this along. What I have is

4 the judgement of the Court in Brcko, because I won that case. Here. I

5 have it all. May I have a look?

6 A. Does the Court allow that.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: What I want to know is: What is the point of all

8 this?

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I put a question

10 yesterday to Mrs. Bobic, and now I just learned that there is another

11 document. I wish to establish: How was, in fact, that property

12 transferred? All I received from the Prosecutor is the power of attorney,

13 in his name. I'm not going to put any questions to the witness, but I

14 would like to ask the Prosecutor to take over these documents from the

15 witness so that we can carry out certain verfications through our

16 investigators.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That has already been done because

18 there was another judgement passed down in Brcko and he had lost the case.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, the Prosecution dealt with the documents

20 that mattered with their case. So if you want to conduct investigations

21 which have nothing to do with this case, then you have to do that on your

22 own.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I wanted to

24 acquire information from the witness so that I can carry out my

25 investigation. All I want to know: What was the registration number of

Page 11482

1 that case in Samac? If the witness can tell me that, then I can carry my

2 investigation.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it can be quite easily done.

4 All you have to do is go to the Court in Bosanski Samac.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: In which case, then there is no point in this other

7 power of attorney which was signed by the ladies. There is no point in

8 referring to it, because the power of attorney which the witness dealt

9 with regarding his property has been -- is on record.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't want to go into these civil

11 law issues, but this was a joint property relationship between this

12 witness and the family of his late brother, and forceful confiscation or

13 forceful takeover of his property from Cvijetin Stevanovic ^Stepanovic,

14 and this is why I needed the information regarding his sister-in-law,

15 Amira. This is all one and the same case. I think that they altogether

16 were litigants in this one case.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, then. All I want to do is to instruct

18 the usher to get photocopies of the other power of attorney regarding the

19 other property, so that the registry has a copy, and then we can mark it

20 for identification only.

21 Yes, you can proceed, Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wish to correct the

23 transcript. The registry just told me that I referred to this document as

24 P136, this power of attorney, when in fact it was document P135 it was it

25 was issued by this witness, Bobic Kemal, to Cvijetin Stjepanovic [as

Page 11483

1 interpreted].

2 Q. I have just one more question. You have just confirmed me that

3 you co-owned all of your property together with your sister-in-law, Amira,

4 who was the wife of your late brother and the sister of your wife; is that

5 right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And as I gathered it, she and her family lived in another part of

8 your duplex, which was the house with two parts to it?

9 A. Yes. It was one large house.

10 Q. Mr. Bobic, do you remember that you and Amira signed a gift

11 contract gifting away part of your house to Gordana Pavlovic, who was the

12 girlfriend of your late son, and that took place sometime in the summer of

13 1993?

14 A. All of them, many of them came to the camp to have documents

15 signed. What else could I do? I was locked up in the camp and they could

16 do as they pleased. They had to fight over getting my signature. They

17 knew what kind of a house I had. I had a large house with four three-room

18 apartments. Everybody wanted to loot my property.

19 Q. I just put a very clear question to you.

20 A. Yes. Gordana came with her father, Dusko Pavlovic, and her

21 brother, Branko. They came to visit me in Batkovici.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Is that answer complete? Because it doesn't answer

23 the part of signing a gift contract. The answer is simply that they came

24 to visit. Yes.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. He didn't reply to me fully, but

Page 11484

1 now the witness just confirmed to me that Gordana came with her father and

2 brother.

3 Q. Now, sir, do you remember signing the deed gifting away part of

4 your property to her? Do you remember that?

5 A. I don't remember that, because this is what they told me: That

6 the Municipal Assembly would not let them enter the house until I and my

7 family signed the document, because we were supposed to be expelled. How

8 can you give away your own house? I think that's ridiculous. I don't

9 need to comment on this any more.

10 Q. When disclosing certain documents to us, the Prosecutor also gave

11 us a sheet of paper which is barely legible. It has an ERN number

12 00604078. I would kindly ask you to take a look at this sheet of paper.

13 I tried to decipher it, but I was unable, and I would like to ask you now

14 whether you have any recollection regarding this document. I have a

15 sufficient number of copies for the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't have translation in English,

17 because I was unable to read the B/C/S version of this document as I have

18 received it from the Prosecutor.

19 Q. And if you, sir, have any knowledge regarding this, could this

20 perhaps pertain to Gordana Pavlovic? Do you see a signature on this

21 document? Do you see your signature on this document?

22 A. I never signed this. I can't even tell what it says here.

23 Bobic Kemal.

24 Q. Well, is this signature down there perhaps yours? There's a

25 number 1 and then a signature next to it. Does that look like your

Page 11485

1 signature?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, this is totally illegible. You yourself

3 said you couldn't decipher it at all, so how do you expect the witness ...

4 MR. LUKIC: Well, that's why I wanted to ask the witness about

5 this and see whether he had signed anything of this kind and whether he

6 could assist us with it.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is completely illegible.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Bobic, do you remember giving this document to the

10 Prosecution? That's my question.

11 A. No, not this document, never.

12 Q. Then I will have to carry out further consultations with the

13 Prosecution to see where they acquired this document.

14 A. I don't know whether my wife perhaps submitted this. I have all

15 of the originals here.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: So the witness doesn't know. He has given us the

17 answer.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we introduce this document as an

19 ID document.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I oppose to this document being

21 tendered, because it is quite unclear, and there are a lot of things here

22 that are rigged. I am here interrogated as an accused, not as a witness.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Bobic --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Bobic, you leave that to the Prosecution and the

Page 11486

1 Defence.

2 Mr. Di Fazio.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I oppose to the document being tendered as well, if

4 Your Honours please. There's simply no evidenced establishing what it

5 is. It's meaningless. Illegible so far and, at the most, it could be

6 given an ID number. For what it's worth --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. For what it's worth, we shall have it marked

8 for identification only.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: The Prosecution's submission essentially is there

10 is no coherent evidence about the piece of paper at all.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Can we have it marked for identification?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. The previous document, the

13 power of attorney dated 6th of October, 1993, shall be marked D73/3 ter

14 ID. This document shall be marked D74/3 ter ID. Thank you.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Bobic, we will now change topics entirely, and please don't

17 think that I wish to accuse you of anything. All I wanted was to clarify

18 certain things regarding this sheet of paper that was furnished to me by

19 the Prosecution.

20 Now we will turn to an entirely different topic concerning the

21 exchange and the information you had about the exchanges while you were in

22 Batkovici. You told us that Batkovici looked like a typical camp. The

23 warden that you mentioned, and the warden of that prisoner, was he

24 somebody from the military?

25 A. I know that he was a taxman in Bijeljina, and then during the war

Page 11487

1 he was promoted to the rank of major, and all of us addressed him

2 as "major." I learned how to address officers when I was in the Yugoslav

3 army.

4 Q. Do you know whether this camp, or the collections centre, as they

5 called it, and its functioning and organisation was under the jurisdiction

6 of Republika Srpska?

7 A. I don't know. It was a typical camp. We were transferred from

8 Samac to Batkovici, so that was one coherent group.

9 Q. My question is whether you know that this camp was under the

10 jurisdiction of the army of Republika Srpska.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In paragraph 57 of this draft version of the statement given this

13 year, the Prosecutor said that on that occasion you said that the person

14 in charge was Milan Gvero, who was in charge of the whole Bijeljina

15 region. Do you remember stating that?

16 A. Yes. He was a general, General Gvero, and he is living to this

17 day in Belgrade. I'm quite sure of that.

18 Q. When you say that you saw him personally in the command, where was

19 that?

20 A. It was in Bijeljina. I went to work there, and the guard would

21 tell us, "Move away from that ramp, because General Milan Gvero is

22 coming." This is how I learned of his name. He was a very large man.

23 And this guy, Serb, told us that he was in charge of that.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like a document to be put

25 before the witness. We have an official English translation attached as

Page 11488

1 well. The document was disclosed to the Prosecution, and it is a memo

2 that was addressed to the committee for exchange in Bijeljina, by the one

3 in Banja Luka, and the document was dated 8th of October, 1993.

4 Q. Mr. Bobic, just something briefly regarding this document, but I

5 will let you read it first.

6 A. Can I get a copy of it?

7 Q. I think that the Prosecution will be able to provide you with one.

8 A. Well, I was supposed to be exchanged on several occasions, and I

9 don't know why that did not materialise. I wasn't exchanged with these

10 people here.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. In the English

12 translation, the first main paragraph, it says -- under investigation, who

13 received abolition. Now, I can see in the B/C/S, there's a word that

14 looks like the B/C/S version of "abolition," but in English it doesn't

15 seem to make any sense to me. Maybe there's another way the B/C/S word

16 should be translated. Perhaps we could find out.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be best if I read out

18 that first sentence and have it translated by the Court interpreters.

19 Q. So this is a document which, in its heading, indicates that it was

20 sent by the 1st Krajina Corps on the 8th of October, 1993, and it was sent

21 to the committee for exchange of prisoners, personally to the president of

22 that commission, Bodirogic Matija, lieutenant in Bijeljina. The first

23 sentence goes as follows:

24 "We are sending you a list of prisoners who had been convicted or

25 were under investigations, and for them we received pardon, and

Page 11489

1 immediately forwarding it to you for the purposes of tomorrow's arrival."

2 Mr. Bobic, I will read out the third paragraph so that we get some

3 idea about the context. The third paragraph reads as follows --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you go on, can we correct, then, the

5 word "abolition" to read as "pardon" in the English version? Yes, you can

6 go ahead.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Q. So the third paragraph says as follows:

9 "As regards the changes in the list, the following names can be

10 changed." And then, underneath, you see number 134. Can you read that

11 outloud, please?

12 A. Yes. It says Bobic Kemal, son of Salih, 1940, Samac. And then

13 instead of him, Irfan Sabah, son of Mehmed, 1961, Prijedor, can go. And

14 then underneath --

15 Q. You don't need to read what's underneath. My question is as

16 follows: Is this your personal data? Does this pertain to you,

17 Kemal Bobic, son of Salih, born in 1940 in Samac? Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Did you know, in October of 1993, that you were scheduled to be

20 exchanged?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you learn that the committee from Tuzla did not request that

23 you be exchanged? It was a Muslim commission from Tuzla. So that

24 commission did not request for you to go into exchange, but rather,

25 Irfan Sabah? Do you know about that?

Page 11490

1 A. No, that's not true. I came after the exchange to Rahic [phoen].

2 I went there after Sarajevo. I went to the motel called Kobo where the

3 Muslim commission for exchange had its seat, and they told me that they

4 requested me to be exchanged 20 times. And the more they asked for me,

5 the more frequently they were refused. I was even requested by the

6 central commission in Sarajevo, by Amor Masovic.

7 Q. Let's not go into that. Let me ask you this: Have you ever heard

8 of Bodirogic Matija, and the other person?

9 A. I -- no, I don't know them. Perhaps I saw them while I was in the

10 camp, but, you know, the conditions in the camp were very difficult. The

11 rules were very strict. We were not allowed to talk amongst ourselves.

12 Q. Can you tell me whether you know Sabhaz Irfan [phoen], son of

13 Mehmed? Was he with you in the Batkovici camp?

14 A. I think that he came from Manjaca, near Prijedor. Yes, I know the

15 man.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

17 introduced into evidence?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No objection?

19 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it marked as an exhibit, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be D75/3 and

22 D75/3 ter. Thank you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Now that you told us that after you were exchanged you contacted

25 people from the Exchange Commission on the Muslim side, can you then tell

Page 11491

1 whether you know that there were negotiations concerning the exchange of

2 prisoners in Batkovici between military commission headed by Amor Masovic

3 and the military commission of Republika Srpska? Do you know anything

4 about that?

5 A. No, I don't know. All I know is that we were summoned to go to

6 Sarajevo after the exchange. We went to the barracks there.

7 Q. We'll get to that. But let me ask you this first: You spent

8 almost two years in Batkovici. Have you seen other people leave to be

9 exchanged? Did other people from -- not from Samac but from elsewhere

10 come to the camp and later be exchanged?

11 A. Yes. These people were imprisoned with me, and then later on

12 exchanged. They would simply leave the camp, go through the gates, board

13 buses, and leave.

14 Q. And those were people who were not from Bosanski Samac; is that

15 right?

16 A. Well, we couldn't really tell, because we couldn't go out, and all

17 we could do is look out from the hangar.

18 Q. All right. I will ask you just a few more questions regarding

19 your exchange. You were exchanged in October of 1994, in Sarajevo, as

20 you've told us.

21 A. Yes, and I have a document regarding that.

22 Q. Now, please tell me this: Whether you saw Mr. Amor Masovic when

23 you were exchanged. Who is that man? Can you tell the Trial Chamber what

24 you know about him?

25 A. Everybody, all imprisoned Croats and Muslims and even Serbs know

Page 11492

1 Masovic. There were Serbs imprisoned in the camp with me. Amor Masovic

2 was a man who everybody knew. All three ethnicities were in the camp with

3 me, because they were in the BH army.

4 Amor Masovic was the president of the Exchange Commission, and

5 when I came to be exchanged, at the bridge, we were taken to the tower,

6 and then we came to the brotherhood and unity bridge, where there were

7 Serb positions, and Momcilo Krajisnik came there, there was Asushi Akashi

8 there as well, and then Michael Rose. This is where the delegations

9 negotiated back and forth. And then there were 80-something of us on a

10 bus, and we stayed until 9.00. It was -- we spent the whole night there,

11 and then the first exchange started the following morning, and then I was

12 exchanged in the first exchange. Amor Masovic came in and said, "You will

13 go first."

14 Q. Tell me just one more thing regarding the exchange: Did anybody

15 there, at the location of the exchange, ask you whether you wanted to go

16 to the other side?

17 A. Yes. There was an office. They took us in there, and there were

18 two ladies there.

19 Q. Tell me just one more thing: Do you remember seeing whether

20 soldiers came from the other side and crossed to the territory of

21 Republika Srpska? Did you see people coming from the opposite side?

22 A. No, I didn't. They exchanged people by numbers. I didn't see

23 Serbs.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bobic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

Page 11493

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bobic. I am

5 Borislav Pisarevic, an attorney representing the defence of Mr. Zaric

6 before this Tribunal. Before I ask any questions, I would like to

7 express, on behalf of Mr. Zaric, his sincere regret for everything that

8 you and your family have experienced and suffered through these

9 unfortunate events in Bosnia and Herzegovina and our municipality of

10 Bosanski Samac.

11 I would also like to ask you to make a short pause before giving

12 your answers, because you already had an opportunity to see what problems

13 ensue if you don't. You and I speak the same language, and I would like

14 to ensure that everything that I and you say is taken in by the

15 Trial Chamber. That's why I would like for you to make a short pause, so

16 that that can be translated. Naturally, everything else that was

17 previously said to you by my colleagues still applies.

18 Mr. Bobic, we shall talk about the time before the 17th of April,

19 1992, which means that I will ask you some questions which mostly have to

20 do with 1992. You've already told us that you were one of the founders of

21 the SDA. Can we agree that all the members of your family who were of age

22 were also members of the Party of Democratic Action?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Today and yesterday, during your testimony before this Chamber,

25 you said, several times, that you quit the SDA, or rather, I think that

Page 11494

1 you wanted to say that you left the executive board of the SDA. Did I

2 understand you correctly?

3 A. Yes, you did.

4 Q. Can you now tell me the following: When did you leave the

5 executive board of the SDA of the municipality of Samac?

6 A. It was sometime in 1992, at the time of the repeated elections,

7 and then I quit. That is, I stayed in the SDA, but others joined the

8 board. And you know it well. Other men were -- joined the board.

9 Q. Can we agree that Mr. Sulejman Tihic became the president of the

10 municipal board of the SDA in September 1991, that that was when he was

11 elected to that duty?

12 A. Yes, we can.

13 Q. Because then my conclusion would be right, I think, when I say

14 that from September 1991 were not a member -- that as of that date, you

15 were no longer a member of the executive board of the SDA in the

16 municipality of Samac. Would that be correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So you do not -- you are not familiar with the activities of the

19 SDA in the municipality of Samac?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You are not familiar with them?

22 A. No, I'm not, because I was -- I no longer attended their meetings.

23 Q. And although you were not a member of the executive board anymore,

24 did you continue to donate funds to the Party of Democratic Action?

25 A. Well, I did not donate any money, but they would come to the

Page 11495

1 restaurant to have the meals, to have a dinner. At times they paid, at

2 times they didn't.

3 Q. You must be familiar with the fact that in the municipality of

4 Samac at the time that we are talking about, and that is 1992, all sorts

5 of incidents happened, that there were explosions, sound attacks,

6 barricades, and so on and so forth.

7 A. Yes, I'm aware of that, like any other citizen there.

8 Q. Now I want to ask you some questions having to do with the

9 4th Detachment of the JNA, of the 17th Tactical Group, for the simple

10 reason that some questions concerning the 4th Detachment have not been

11 sufficiently clarified during your direct examination before this Chamber

12 by the Prosecution.

13 If I understood you correctly, in your view, and to your

14 knowledge, the 4th Detachment was associated with the party which was

15 called the League of Communists's movement for Yugoslavia. Did I

16 understand that correctly, and is that what you said?

17 A. Well, it was all written down in Samac. There were posters,

18 movement for Yugoslavia, 4th Detachment, reformist forces, technical

19 group, Ljubisa. Let's not go into it. We know it. No need to put this

20 additional burden on Mr. Zaric.

21 Q. Mr. Bobic, you spoke about the existence of political parties in

22 the municipality of Samac. I did not want to list them all on purpose.

23 Those were parliamentary parties.

24 Can we agree that this movement, that is, this League of

25 Communists movement for Yugoslavia did not exist as a political party in

Page 11496

1 the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

2 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that. I do not know. I don't have

3 any certain knowledge of that.

4 Q. You don't?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. You also said that in the 4th Detachment there were many Muslims?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in the 4th Detachment of the JNA,

9 in addition to Muslims, there were also members of other ethnicities,

10 those which lived in the municipality of Bosanski Samac, such as Croats,

11 and so on?

12 A. You mean in the 4th Detachment?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Yes, there were. Croats and --

15 Q. There were various --

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... this answer was

18 given yesterday, Mr. Pisarevic. Please try to avoid repeating the

19 evidence in chief.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best.

21 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that the 4th Detachment was a

22 military formation within the Yugoslav People's Army?

23 A. I don't understand the question. I don't know.

24 Q. Yesterday, during your testimony, you said, on page 54, line 17,

25 and I quote:

Page 11497

1 "He was something like a commander, the commander of the

2 4th Detachment."

3 You meant by this, when you said "he," you meant Mr. Simo Zaric,

4 didn't you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That is what you said?

7 A. Yes. It was all all right and legal, no secret. Mirko [phoen]

8 was his deputy.

9 Q. We will come to that.

10 Mr. Bobic, on the 3rd of April, 1998, you gave a statement to the

11 investigators of the OTP of The Hague Tribunal. Do you remember that? Do

12 you remember that statement?

13 A. I do, yes.

14 Q. The 3rd of April, 1998.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That was an official statement, wasn't it?

17 A. Yes, it was.

18 Q. And you signed that statement, didn't you?

19 A. I don't know if I signed it.

20 Q. Nobody forced you, you didn't do it under duress or anything?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I mean the contents of that statement.

23 A. I do not know what statement you mean, because they came, they

24 asked questions, a number of them from the Tribunal, and so on. People

25 came. They have my number --

Page 11498

1 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... we've referred

2 to this passage before, this statement before. Please go to the direct

3 quotation you want to refer to the witness.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours. Could

5 the usher please help me to give the witness a copy of his statement of

6 the 3rd of April, 1998?

7 Q. And I want to ask you -- to ask you to find -- to turn to page 3

8 of the statement. Let me help my learned friends.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] The English translation, ERN

10 60242433 [as interpreted]. Paragraph one before the last. And you will

11 see --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

13 MS. REIDY: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Just for the record, so it's

14 all straight, it's not an English translation. The original statement is

15 in English. The original document is the English version, and that is

16 which the witness signed. The translation is the B/C/S. Just so that's

17 clear for the record.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.

19 Go ahead, Mr. Pisarevic.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. That's right.

21 Q. This is one, two, three, four, five -- fifth passage, the last

22 sentence in that passage. Turn to page 3, Mr. Bobic.

23 A. Oh, you've said page 3.

24 Q. Yes, yes. Page 3.

25 A. No. You didn't give me the right number. You said 006 something.

Page 11499

1 Q. No, no, no. This has nothing to do with you. It has to do with

2 my learned friends, and that is a completely different matter. For you,

3 it is page 3, paragraph 5, last sentence in that paragraph. Look at it

4 and I can read it out. You said then:

5 "Simo Zaric was responsible for security, a security officer in

6 the 4th Detachment of the JNA."

7 Did I read correctly what it says?

8 A. Yes, you did.

9 Q. Did you say this to the investigators of the OTP of The Hague

10 Tribunal on the 3rd of April, 1998?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Can we then agree that you knew at the time that Mr. Zaric was in

13 the 4th Detachment of the JNA and there he was in charge of security

14 matters?

15 A. Simo Zaric worked. He was also with the State Security Service.

16 Is that what you mean?

17 Q. Sir, I'm speaking about the 4th Detachment as a military formation

18 of the JNA.

19 A. Yes. He was responsible for the 4th Detachment.

20 Q. And then you also knew that Mr. Zaric was not the commander of the

21 4th Detachment of the JNA?

22 A. He was the commander and Brko was his deputy. Anybody knew it. I

23 mean, it was all above board. It was all above board. The

24 4th Detachment, the SDA, and the SDS -- I mean, if that's what you mean,

25 if you agree.

Page 11500

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I want to

3 intervene. The witness said that the 4th Detachment was legal.

4 Q. Is that it?

5 A. At that time. At that time. Before the war, I mean. Before the

6 war, all the parties were lawful. What happened afterwards, we all know.

7 Q. Mr. Bobic, we need to clarify something here. We are not talking

8 about whether the parties were lawful. We are not talking about whether

9 Yugoslav People's Army was legal. Can you distinguish between political

10 parties, on the one hand, and the Yugoslav People's Army, that is, the

11 4th Detachment, as an institution of the defence of the then state?

12 A. I wouldn't really know how to explain, because I was never amongst

13 the political leadership.

14 Q. So are you saying you do not know?

15 A. No, I don't know.

16 Q. Since this statement that you gave to the OTP, which you have in

17 front of you -- keep it for a while, because I wish to remind you of your

18 testimony yesterday, when, on page 55, lines 5 to 7 of the transcript, you

19 said:

20 "Naser told me that I was to go to the SUP because Simo Zaric had

21 ordered that I be taken in for interview."

22 A. That is what he told me.

23 Q. You stated this?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. A few questions. This Naser, as a matter of fact, is policeman

Page 11501

1 Naser Sejdic, called Cakar; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in incident that you mentioned happened on the 23rd of May,

4 1992; isn't it?

5 A. 23rd of May, 1992, not -- oh, yes. Right.

6 Q. Now will you turn to page 4 of your statement.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] For our learned friends, it is the

8 original of the statement 00602435, second paragraph.

9 Q. For you, it is paragraph 7. It begins on the 23rd of May. So

10 will you please read this first sentence, if it presents no problem to

11 you.

12 A. You mean "on the 23rd of May"? Is that what you want me --

13 Q. Yes, yes.

14 A. On the 23rd of May, 1992, Naser Sejdic (a policeman I mentioned

15 earlier) came to my place with two Serbs and took me to the police

16 station. There were 20 or so citizens more --"

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] You don't have to go further, but

18 we went through this yesterday.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The record is not clear. Mr. Pisarevic, the record

20 is not clear, because the witness read so fast. Can you read it, slowly,

21 so that we have it on record clearly?

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. In your statement, it says:

24 "On the 23rd of May, 1992, Naser Sejdic (a policeman whom I

25 mentioned earlier) came to my house with two Serbs and took me to the

Page 11502

1 police station."

2 Did I read correctly what is written here?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. Mr. Bobic, is that your statement?

5 A. It is.

6 Q. But, Mr. Bobic, you still stand by the statement which you gave on

7 the 3rd of April, 1998, to the investigators of the OTP of The Hague

8 Tribunal?

9 A. You mean this statement?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. I do stand by it. Why? This is all correct.

12 Q. It is all correct?

13 A. Yes, it is. If you want me to help somebody with something,

14 that's fine with me.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's correct the transcript. It should be April

16 1998? That's the year you mentioned, April 1998?

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, 1998. 3rd of April, 1998.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Bobic, in your testimony, you said how Simo Zaric

21 was present in the office with Stevo Todorovic, Perica Krstanovic,

22 Predrag Adzic, when you were brought to Stevan Todorovic's office for the

23 second time. That is what you said yesterday.

24 During your conversation with Mr. Zaric, and in preparation for

25 this examination, Mr. Zaric affirms that it is not true that he -- that in

Page 11503

1 Stevan Todorovic's office he was ever with Stevan Todorovic,

2 Perica Krstanovic, Predrag Adzic, and that he never saw you there.

3 A. May I answer? Why would I be lying about that? The answer is no,

4 which means he was in the office. Simo knows it. He knows it well. It's

5 nothing dangerous.

6 Q. You also mentioned somebody called Pero Kitic, and you explained

7 how you came to know him and so on. Mr. Bobic, I read your statement of

8 the 3rd of April, 1998, carefully, and established that in that statement

9 you never once mention Mr. Pero Kitic or the events in which he played a

10 part. Do you remember mentioning it or not?

11 A. I merely answered the questions that the Tribunal asked me. What

12 they asked me, I answered. Perhaps it never got to that, but this man

13 saved my life.

14 Q. Very well. Very well.

15 So we can agree that you did not mention him because you were

16 not -- because the investigators never asked you about him or about the

17 events related to him?

18 A. Yes, we can agree about that.

19 Q. You also said that Mr. Kitic stayed with you that day, that he

20 stayed on for lunch at your place, didn't he?

21 A. Yes, he did.

22 Q. After that meeting, after that day - and that was sometime in

23 early May - did you ever see Mr. Kitic again?

24 A. Yes, I did. I saw him in the shop, because there was this order

25 that all the publicans had to keep their outlets open, so I did. He came,

Page 11504

1 Pero Kitic came there and sat down for a while, had a drink, and he was

2 sleeping at Simo Zaric's, in his house. That is how it was.

3 Q. Very well, but we'll have to clear it up a bit. So in early May,

4 after your first meeting with Pero Kitic, you met again several times?

5 A. Well, two, maybe three times.

6 Q. Can we agree that you saw him in your restaurant called Sedrvan?

7 You are aware that Mr. Kitic spent nights at Fadil Topcagic's; don't you

8 know it?

9 A. Yes. That is what he told me, and I saw him come from there,

10 because the shop was in between.

11 Q. And on those occasions when you were together, in May 1992, did

12 you also play chess?

13 A. Yes, we did.

14 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Kitic was killed?

15 A. Yes, I am.

16 Q. Your restaurant, Sedrvan, was not damaged, therefore, whilst you

17 were free?

18 A. It wasn't, no. It was quite all right, except that the glass was

19 broken.

20 Q. And why was the glass broken?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Was it due to -- a result of the detonation?

23 A. Yes, possibly.

24 Q. And are you aware of the fact that your coffee bar, Sedrvan, was

25 considerably damaged when it was hit by rocket launchers and that your

Page 11505

1 neighbour, Fikret Omeragic [phoen] was killed?

2 A. Fiktet Omeragic you say?

3 Q. No. Fikret Omeragic was killed on that occasion.

4 A. It was some three or four days after the war broke out in Samac.

5 I don't know. I can't remember. He died in Belgrade.

6 Q. And do you know at all whether your restaurant, Sedrvan, was ever

7 hit by a shell or a rocket which landed on your cafe or nearby?

8 A. Well, how could I know something like that? I was in camp.

9 Q. Did you hear of it?

10 A. Yes, I heard. Muric's [phoen] wife came to visit. She was a

11 Serb, and she told me that Sedrvan had been destroyed. That was sometime

12 in 1993 or early 1994. I never asked anybody as to the exact date.

13 Q. I'll put a few more questions to you and then we will finish

14 shortly. I'll ask you a few things about Mr. Zaric.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we can a break for 20 minutes? We'll

16 continue at 1250 hours.

17 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. You're continuing your

20 cross-examination.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. Mr. Bobic, just before we broke off, I told you that we would talk

23 about Mr. Zaric. You know Mr. Zaric well, don't you? Can you please

24 speak up?

25 A. Yes, I know him very well.

Page 11506

1 Q. You know his family well, don't you?

2 A. Yes, because my relative is an aunt of his wife.

3 Q. Can you agree with me that Mr. Zaric was a decent and prominent

4 citizen of Bosanski Samac?

5 A. Yes. Before I war I did not have a bad opinion of him.

6 Q. Thank you. Can you please confirm to us that Mr. Zaric,

7 Mr. Sarkanovic, Mr. Simandic, and Pisarevic, Mihajlo Topolovac, so with

8 all of those people he came to your house on the 14th of February, 1992,

9 to express his condolences after your son was killed? Do you remember

10 that?

11 A. Yes, I remember that.

12 Q. And do you remember that after your son was killed, in Samac, in

13 the cinema, a gathering of citizens was held, and it was devoted to the

14 safety, security, of all of the residents in Samac?

15 A. I can't remember that. I'm sorry.

16 Q. And did you hear somebody speak afterwards about that rally or

17 gathering of residents, where security issues were discussed? Do you

18 remember somebody telling you that Simo Zaric spoke at that gathering as

19 well?

20 A. I can't remember. At the time, I was building my shop, so I

21 didn't go anywhere.

22 Q. And the last question I mean to ask you pertains to the

23 restitution of your property. You have mentioned Mr. Milos Savic here,

24 who is the president of the Court in Samac, and who allowed for that

25 judgement to be enforced.

Page 11507

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. That Milos Savic is the same person who, before the war, meaning

3 in 1992, used to work in the public security station in Samac?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I have concluded, Mr. Bobic.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination, Mr. Di Fazio.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you

9 Re-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

10 Q. You were asked questions this morning by the first Defence

11 counsel, Mr. Vukovic, regarding the arming of the SDA and the arming of

12 the population, and indeed a passage was put to you from paragraph 8 of

13 your draft statement prepared in June of this year. I want to read

14 paragraph 8 to you and ask you if you agree that that is the paragraph

15 that was put into the draft statement:

16 "In my opinion, the non-Serb citizens in Bosanski Samac were not

17 generally armed. The Muslims in the town did not have money for

18 firearms. As far as I know, some of the population had hunting rifles

19 with permits, but there was no campaign to arm the population and the

20 SDA -- and the population, and the SDA in the area were not involved in

21 supplying weapons to its members. There had been some discussion in the

22 SDA party as to whether we should try and get arms because of the war in

23 Croatia and the activity of the JNA and information that the Serbs were

24 being armed.

25 In particular, the Serbs had built up military equipment and

Page 11508

1 weapons in the village of Obudovac, which is 18 kilometres away from

2 Bosanski Samac town. However, I was personally against arming. I heard

3 that Alija Fitozovic may have bought weapons in Croatia, but I know

4 nothing about it."

5 Is that the paragraph that you had in your draft statement

6 provided in June of this year?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you agree with the contents, with what is contained in that

9 paragraph that I've just read out to you?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness have Exhibit D49/1 ter ID?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please take this and tell

13 them that I know nothing of this? This is my handwriting, and this is a

14 forged one. I know nothing of this.

15 MR. DI FAZIO:

16 Q. I appreciate that that's your position. I understand that. I've

17 heard your evidence. I understand that you say that that's not your

18 statement. No problem. I understand that. I just want you to read out a

19 paragraph of it, though.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, for the sake -- if I may. Sorry, my

21 learned friend.

22 So the sake of clarity and for the transcript, could we, according

23 to the words that the witness just said, on page 74, line 5 until 7, to

24 know exactly for the record to which document this witness makes certain

25 reference that it's forgery? Because it's not clear from his words here.

Page 11509

1 Obviously he took a look on two documents, but we don't know exactly about

2 what document he is speaking. Just just for the record, with references

3 to these words on page 74 and line 5 and 7. Could we clarify that?

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll do that. If Your Honours please, I don't

5 propose to put anything from that document to the witness, but I will now

6 clarify the query that Mr. Pantelic has raised.

7 Q. Witness, on reflection, I'm not going to ask you anything about

8 the content of the document, but D49/1 ter ID, the document that you say

9 is not yours, you referred to a forgery just a moment ago. Were you there

10 talking about that very document dated the 16th of March, 1998, the

11 document that the Court has marked D49/1 ter ID?

12 A. I was simply saying that this signature here is not mine, and you

13 can see my original signature on another document. You can compare it on

14 Internet. And everything that I have stated to this Tribunal is

15 accurate. I would just like for you to take a look at this, for the

16 purposes of your record, and to establish that this here is a forgery.

17 This is what they, the other people, gave me. This is what my signature

18 looks like as recorded in the municipal books.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Well, the witness has demonstrated and

21 commented on that issue and has provided a new document in which --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Which new document?

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it's another document. As you can see on

24 the -- does Your Honour have the ELMO switched on?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I can see that, but are you accepting it? Is

Page 11510

1 it of any use your case?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: No, it's not. I mean, I don't want to use it. The

3 witness did that.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So he has no instructions to produce another

5 document, so you had better withdraw it.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Very well. I'll deal with it in that way.

7 Thank you.

8 Q. May we forget about D49/1 ter ID.

9 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise again, Your Honour. In spite of my

10 efforts to see from his previous answer that he is specifically speaking

11 about D49/1 ter ID. Since this person is a layperson, maybe it's a

12 misunderstanding. Just for the record, could we put on the ELMO and then

13 hear a confirmation from the Prosecution that this witness said that

14 document D49/1 ter ID, with the Prosecution ERN numbers --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, Mr. Pantelic.

16 MR. PANTELIC: -- is a forgery. That's all, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: That has been done. It's sufficient.

18 MR. PANTELIC: So it's not -- could I hear from the Prosecution

19 that's not in dispute?

20 MS. REIDY: Your Honour --

21 MR. PANTELIC: This witness made a reference to this particular

22 document.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: That is on record. It's clear that he referred to

24 D49/1 ter ID.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks. Can we move on now, please.

Page 11511

1 Q. Witness, you said in evidence that you had received --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher go and sit? Because you're no longer

3 referring to that document.

4 MR. DI FAZIO:

5 Q. -- that you received bread and milk. How long did that go on for

6 after the 16th and 17th of April, the receipt of bread and milk?

7 A. Some two to three days. Yes. We received it for two or three

8 days.

9 Q. Did you ever see any supplies of bread and milk again up until the

10 time that you were arrested and detained?

11 A. No, I didn't receive anything. No.

12 Q. Thanks. The topic of a gift of property of yours was raised by

13 counsel, and there was reference to a gift made to a Gordana Pavlovic, who

14 was the daughter - sorry - the girlfriend of one of your sons. What

15 ethnic background was she?

16 A. A Serb. She was of Serb ethnicity.

17 Q. Thank you. I don't want to go into the details of the case or

18 documentation related to her, or anything. Can you just tell us, pure and

19 simple: Did you ever want to give your son's girlfriend part of your

20 property? Did you ever intend to do that?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me? I think I

24 may have finished.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

Page 11512

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Just one last issue.

3 Q. You were asked questions about the role of Mr. Zaric in the 4th

4 Detachment, and there was reference to his being a security officer. In

5 your statement of the 3rd of April, 1998, when you were discussing your

6 knowledge of defendants in this case, did you say that Simo Zaric was the

7 commander of the 4th Detachment?

8 A. Yes, I did say that.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE LINDHOLM: On page 77, line 2, the question reads as

11 follows: "Did you ever see any supplies of bread and milk again up until

12 the time that you were arrested and detained?" Was the intention with

13 that question to ask whether he did receive milk and bread, or if there

14 was distributed milk and bread around the city? Because if I have

15 understood correctly, he probably had some supplies of his own, as owner

16 of a restaurant. So I think you should make a distinction between those

17 two questions.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand what Your Honour's concern is.

19 Perhaps I'll clarify it, if I may, with the witness.

20 Q. You've told us already that you received bread and milk in the

21 first few days and then it stopped and you didn't receive any bread and

22 milk thereafter, at least up until the time that you were arrested. Are

23 you aware of supplies of bread and milk being distributed to every

24 section, all ethnic groups in the population, in the period of time up

25 until your arrest?

Page 11513

1 A. Bread and milk were distributed only for some two or three days,

2 so that people would not leave Samac and so that they could see who had

3 remained in Samac. It was a political trap. It was no assistance

4 whatsoever. I naturally had a lot of supplies, food supplies, in my own

5 house, which could sustain me for a year. I had my own supplies.

6 Q. Thank you. And am I correct from that last answer that the

7 distribution of bread and milk stopped permanently and it was never done

8 again, to anyone, at least up until the time that you were arrested?

9 A. No. Nobody received anything after some two or three days. If

10 one had money, one could go and get it, but the shelling was already going

11 on and people were not moving about a lot.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Bobic, for giving evidence to the

13 Tribunal. You are now released. You can leave the courtroom.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Do we have witnesses, Mr. Di Fazio.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I regret to say that no, we don't, if Your

18 Honours please. The next witness is a protected witness, and I believe

19 it's Witness P. But in any event, this man is working in a nearby

20 European country, and arrangements were made some time ago for him to

21 be -- to go to Croatia and from a place in Croatia to fly to The Hague,

22 and that will occur, but it will occur on the weekend. And so we don't

23 have any other available witnesses. That is, I submit, a quite unusual

24 event. Generally the Prosecution has been pretty good in having witnesses

25 on time.

Page 11514

1 We didn't expect that both Mr. And Mrs. Bobic would complete their

2 evidence in quite the sort of period of time that they have, and I think

3 the Chamber might agree that certainly as far as their

4 examination-in-chief was concerned -- it set records for speed.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: It's okay. What other witnesses do we have

6 remaining?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: They're all protected witnesses at this stage, if

8 Your Honours please.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can go into closed session. I mean private

10 session and deal with this.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we go into private session, please.

13 [Private session]

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4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.30 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of

6 July, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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