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Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11524

1 Monday, 29 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

7 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and

8 Simo Zaric. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, can we go into closed

11 session? There's just a matter I need to address you regarding the

12 witnesses, and it concerns confidential details of one particular witness.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we go into private session?

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Page 11536

1 [Open session]

2 MR. WEINER:

3 Q. Now, this unit, sir, that protected the village, did it have any

4 type of patrol?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And tell us: What did this patrol do?

7 A. They patrolled the village during the night. They guarded the

8 village during the night.

9 Q. And how many people -- first, how many patrols were there?

10 A. Usually three patrols.

11 Q. And how many men were in each of these patrols?

12 A. Two men respectively.

13 Q. Were these people armed?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. With what type of weaponry?

16 A. Hunting weapons.

17 Q. Did they use any radios to communicate with each other?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did the members of the patrol wear uniforms or civilian clothing?

20 A. They wore civilian clothing.

21 Q. Where were these patrols located in the village?

22 A. One was located at the entrance into the village, the other one at

23 the exit out of the village, and the third one in the centre of the

24 village.

25 Q. Were there any roadblocks that were established by these patrols?

Page 11537

1 A. No.

2 Q. What did the patrols do?

3 A. They monitored who entered the village during the night and who

4 went out of the village during the night, and everything that went on in

5 the village, generally speaking.

6 Q. Were there ever involved in any incidents or shootings, these

7 patrols?

8 A. No.

9 Q. How long were the patrols functional?

10 A. Until Samac fell.

11 Q. So we're talking from January to April 17th, 1992?

12 A. Like that.

13 Q. Were you drafted into these patrols or it was a volunteer -- a

14 voluntary task?

15 A. This was on a voluntary basis.

16 Q. And was anyone paid for being on these patrols?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I'd like to ask you about some individuals from Bosanski Samac.

19 Do you know a man by the name of Simo Zaric?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And how do you know Simo Zaric?

22 A. Well, I saw him often in my village too. I know that he was a

23 lively man. He liked folk music. I saw him in Samac as well. He was a

24 businessman. Things like that.

25 Q. Do you know another defendant by the name of Blagoje Simic?

Page 11538

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how do you know him?

3 A. I know he was born in Kruskovo Polje. That is a village next to

4 my village. When we were young, we would sometimes sit at the same table.

5 I know that we had coffee together a few times. He finished medical

6 school. He became a doctor. Things like that.

7 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Miroslav Tadic, another

8 defendant?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And tell the Chamber how you know him.

11 A. I know that he worked in Bosanski Samac, in the catering

12 business. He had a cafe called Cafe AS. He was fond of gamble, or

13 rather, I should put it this way: I know that there was gambling going on

14 in that cafe.

15 Q. How long have you known each of these people? You indicated you

16 have known Blagoje Simic since you were very young. What about the other

17 two? How long had you known them?

18 A. I knew Simo Zaric until the war, for about 15 years, and also

19 Miro Brko for about 15 years.

20 Q. Now, I'd ask you to look around the courtroom. Let's start off

21 with Simo Zaric. Is Simo Zaric in the courtroom at this time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And could you please describe the way he's dressed and tell us

24 Where he's located.

25 A. Simo Zaric is on my right-hand side. He's wearing a black suit,

Page 11539

1 white shirt, and it seems to me that the tie he is wearing is black as

2 well.

3 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Miroslav Tadic? You said you

4 know Miroslav Tadic, nicknamed Brko. Could you tell us where he's sitting

5 in this courtroom?

6 A. He is sitting between Simo Zaric and Blagoje Simic. He's sitting

7 in the middle.

8 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, based on that answer, for the record,

9 could the record indicate that all three defendants have been identified

10 by the witness.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MR. WEINER:

13 Q. Sir, let's go back to March and April of 1992?

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Weiner. I don't think you asked

15 the witness where Dr. Blagoje Simic was sitting.

16 MR. WEINER: I didn't because in his last answer he said that

17 Miroslav Tadic was sitting between Simo Zaric and Dr. Blagoje Simic.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Fine. Thanks.

19 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

20 Q. All right, sir. Let's go back to March and April of 1992. Did

21 you travel throughout the municipality of Bosanski Samac during that

22 period?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And while you were travelling, did you observe any Yugoslavian

25 troops or JNA troops in the villages in Bosanski Samac?

Page 11540

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And could you tell the Chamber in what villages you observed

3 troops? Just start off with troops.

4 A. The village of Obudovac, the village of Batkusa, the village of

5 Donja Slatina, Crkvina, Kruskovo Polje, Milosevac, Skarici.

6 Q. Was it unusual to see JNA troops in those small villages?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Had you ever seen troops in those villages before?

9 A. No.

10 Q. During your travels in March and April of 1992, did you see any

11 tanks in those villages? And just tell the Court which ones.

12 A. Yes. The village of Obudovac, the village of Batkusa, Crkvina,

13 Kruskovo Polje, Milosevac.

14 Q. Did you see any mortars which were placed in any villages during

15 that same period?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And where did you see the mortars?

18 A. I saw them in the village of Skarici, on the road between Samac,

19 Modrica, Gradacac. Actually, near a restaurant called Trile's cafe, in a

20 small thicket. And I also saw mortars in Milosevac. But I would like to

21 point out that Milosevac as a village does not belong to the municipality

22 of Bosanski Samac but to the municipality of Modrica.

23 Q. Thank you. Was it unusual to see tanks and mortars in these small

24 villages in the vicinity of Bosanski Samac?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11541

1 Q. Had you ever seen tanks and mortars in those places previously?

2 A. No.

3 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the witness be shown Exhibit P9D -

4 it's a map - so he can just show the locations of the different areas that

5 he's referring to.

6 Q. Sir, I'm going to -- can you take a look at that, please? Start

7 off -- could you point out where Bosanski Samac is.

8 A. Bosanski Samac is located by the Sava River, right here.

9 Q. And some of these villages that you mentioned, Kruskovo Polje,

10 Batkusa, Obudovac, could you show us where those are?

11 A. What I'm pointing at now is the road that goes from Samac to

12 Crkvina, and from Crkvina it forks off. This road leads to Modrica, and

13 the road I'm showing now leads to Gradacac. Skarici is here, and the

14 mortars that I saw were out of Samac, by the first and second

15 intersection. The mortars were somewhere around here.

16 In Milosevac, in Milosevac, is where I saw them. But it's not on

17 this map. It would be around here, if the map were full, complete.

18 Crkvina is here, or rather, where the road forks off.

19 Q. Could you show us again with Milosevac is, even though it's not on

20 the map? Just show us the area where it would be. If they could adjust

21 the focus, please.

22 A. Yes. Milosevac is between the road that leads to Modrica and the

23 road that leads to Gradacac. It takes up part of Lugovi. I can't be more

24 specific. I don't know how the road would continue along here, but at any

25 rate, it goes beyond this map.

Page 11542

1 Q. Okay. Now, could you show us the area where the tanks were.

2 A. That would also be around here. The tanks were located on the

3 road between Modrica and Samac, at a farm that was called Dr. Mujbegovic.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir.

5 Now, sir, you mentioned that you've known Blagoje Simic for a

6 number of years. In March and April of 1992, just prior to the war, had

7 you ever heard him speaking on the radio?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And could you tell the Court about the speech that you heard.

10 A. On one occasion I heard a speech. I cannot say whether he was

11 speaking live or whether it had been recorded, whether it was some

12 previous speech of his. However, what matters is that in the municipality

13 of Bosanski Samac, there has to be Serb authority only, if I can put it

14 that way, and the Croats of Bosanski Samac should move out on their own.

15 Q. And what was his position, if you know, in the SDS at the time?

16 A. He was leader of the SDS party.

17 Q. Did he make any comments with regard to the HDZ party, the

18 Croatian party?

19 A. I don't know. I didn't hear.

20 Q. Were you aware of any statements that he had made at any public

21 meetings at that same time, in April of 1992?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Well, do you recall a statement at any public meeting where they

24 talked about who would be controlling the region?

25 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. It's leading -- a

Page 11543

1 perfectly leading question, and finally, this witness said that he was not

2 aware about any of the speech of Blagoje Simic. I don't know why the

3 Prosecution is pursuing this line of questioning, because he got very

4 clear answers.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: There's nothing wrong with the question. Mr. Weiner

6 can go ahead.

7 MR. WEINER:

8 Q. Sir, do you recall any statement that Blagoje Simic made -- or

9 were you aware of any statement that he made at a public meeting in

10 relation to who should be controlling the region of Bosanski Samac?

11 A. Yes. I've already said. I've already referred to his statement

12 in which he said that control should be exercised by the Serbs, that is,

13 the SDS, and that the Croats should move out on their own.

14 Q. Now, in addition to this, at this same time, you've now seen

15 tanks, you've heard statements from the defendant Blagoje Simic. Were

16 there any rumours spreading throughout Bosanski Samac in the villages in

17 April of 1992?

18 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. Is that directed to the

19 facts, personal knowledge of this witness, or to the rumours? I mean,

20 what we are trying here, rumours or facts?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'm just trying to introduce him into

23 the rumours of war, and then the fright or the panic which was occurring

24 at that time. And he can be aware -- obviously, he can be aware of

25 certain --

Page 11544

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think you can phrase your question better

2 than that.

3 MR. WEINER:

4 Q. Sir, were you aware of any rumours relating to war at that time,

5 in April of 1992?

6 A. One of the rumours was this statement of Dr. Blagoje Simic. If

7 one gives it a wider interpretation. And, of course, that's the way

8 people interpreted it and in fact were therefore panic-stricken.

9 Q. And were people leaving the villages as a result?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did any members of your family leave?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who left?

14 A. My wife and children.

15 Q. And did you bring them out of the village?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you leave at that time?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Why didn't you leave the village?

20 A. Well, simply I had no reason to leave my home.

21 Q. Now, why didn't you leave your home? Did you want to leave

22 Bosanski Samac, the municipality, at that time?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you have any intention in the early part of April of leaving

25 the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

Page 11545

1 A. No.

2 Q. Let's move on to April 17th. What did you hear on April 17th?

3 A. On the 17th of April, I heard that Samac fell into Serb hands, if

4 I can put it that way.

5 Q. Who had you heard was then the mayor, or was now the mayor of

6 Bosanski Samac?

7 A. Dr. Blagoje Simic.

8 Q. Now, did you have a radio in your home?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you ever listen to the radio at that time, after the takeover

11 of Bosanski Samac?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what station did you listen to?

14 A. I listened to a station that was called the Serb radio station of

15 Bosanski Samac.

16 Q. Had it always been the Serb radio station of Bosanski Samac?

17 A. From the fall of Samac, yes.

18 Q. What was it called prior to April 17th?

19 A. It was called Radio Bosanski Samac.

20 Q. Now, did you hear any of the defendants speaking over that radio

21 station?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever hear Blagoje Simic speaking on the radio?

24 A. Except on that occasion that I already mentioned, no.

25 Q. Were you aware of any restrictions that were placed on non-Serbs

Page 11546

1 after the takeover of Bosanski Samac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell the trial court about some of those restrictions that were

4 placed on non-Serbs.

5 A. One of the crucial limitations was the order by

6 Mr. Stevan Todorovic for persons of non-Serb ethnicity, that they were not

7 allowed to -- not more than two of non-Serb people by ethnicity were not

8 allowed to gather.

9 Q. And you said you saw -- you said the order was issued by

10 Stevan Todorovic. Was there a written poster or a flyer that was

11 distributed with this information, that no more than two non-Serbs could

12 gather or meet?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What other restrictions or rules were placed on non-Serbs?

15 A. I don't know about any other restrictions.

16 Q. Well, let's talk about vehicles. Were there certain restrictions

17 or was there a certain change, a change placed on vehicles in the

18 villages, those that were owned by non-Serbs?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Please tell the Chamber what you had to do to your vehicle.

21 A. In order to move around in my vehicle, I had to visibly place a

22 white band on my car, a white ribbon.

23 Q. Persons of what ethnic group had to place white ribbons on their

24 vehicles in order to move throughout the villages?

25 A. People of Croat or Muslim ethnicity.

Page 11547

1 Q. You said that you owned a vehicle. Did you have a white ribbon on

2 your vehicle?

3 A. When I was moving around, yes.

4 Q. Did you ever see any white ribbons on any of the vehicles owned by

5 Serbs in the area?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were you aware of anyone having to wear white armbands at the

8 time?

9 A. If a person was going about without their car, then yes.

10 Q. How did you first learn about the white armbands as well as the

11 ribbons, the white ribbons on the vehicles?

12 A. There was an order that came to the village that if people were

13 going to use their cars, then they had to place these white markings on

14 them.

15 Q. Do you know where the order came from?

16 A. Probably from Mr. Stevan Todorovic. In the flyer that I saw, in

17 the pamphlet, there was his signature.

18 Q. And that flyer that you saw, was that the one relating to the not

19 more than two non-Serbs were allowed to meet? Is that the flyer that

20 you're referring to?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, were people allowed to leave the municipality at will?

23 A. After the fall of Samac, no.

24 Q. What prevented you from leaving?

25 A. We were prevented by checkpoints in the municipality of

Page 11548

1 Bosanski Samac. In order to leave or pass through any of those

2 checkpoints, I had to have a permit which I was supposed to request from

3 the current Serbian authorities that were acting at the time in

4 Bosanski Samac.

5 Q. Where did you have to go in Bosanski Samac to get one of these

6 authorisations to leave the municipality?

7 A. You had to go -- I didn't go, but people who went, went to the

8 Utva company, and this is where they received those permits.

9 Q. Do you know the name of any of the people who issued those

10 permits?

11 A. Mirko Lukic.

12 Q. Did you ever go down and request permission to leave your village?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Why didn't you go?

15 A. I didn't because I wasn't thinking of leaving my village.

16 Q. Let's move on to the end of April. Was there a notice in relation

17 to turning in weapons at that time?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And could you tell the Tribunal, or the Trial Chamber, about that,

20 please?

21 A. There was an order which allegedly came from Kruskovo Polje,

22 because that's where a certain number of soldiers were situated, at the

23 local community hall in Kruskovo Polje. So the order came for all the

24 weapons from Hasici to be collected and brought to the entrance of the

25 village of Kruskovo Polje, and that was on the road between Samac and

Page 11549

1 Gradacac. That's where the entrance to the Kruskovo Polje village was.

2 All the weapons were collected. We didn't have any other weapons,

3 other than guns. This is what I'm thinking of: Hunting rifles. So all of

4 these rifles were collected, they were brought here to this point, and

5 then two soldiers came and took all of those rifles to the local commune

6 in Kruskovo Polje.

7 Q. And did you turn your weapon, your hunting rifle, over?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, what were you doing during this period? You had the takeover

10 of Bosanski Samac through the end of the month. What were you doing?

11 A. I was growing vegetables and I was also cultivating this field

12 that I mentioned, where I planted the trees.

13 Q. And is that what you continued to do after you turned your weapon

14 in over the next two to four days?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, did something happen on May 2nd, 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And can you tell us what happened? What were you doing, first?

19 What were you doing around lunch-time?

20 A. I just had lunch and I sat down in the shade in my yard, and I

21 made coffee for myself, which I was planning to drink. So I was just

22 sitting there and I didn't know anything, and then a couple of people came

23 and they arrested me.

24 Q. Were there others that were arrested after you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11550

1 Q. Were they going house to house and arresting everyone, or was

2 there some sort of list?

3 A. They had a list.

4 Q. How many people were arrested in this first group of arrests, or

5 in your group of arrests?

6 A. Eight people.

7 Q. Were these civilians or military personnel?

8 A. We were all civilians.

9 Q. Of what ethnic group were these persons who were arrested?

10 A. Croats.

11 Q. How many people were involved in arresting these eight Croatians

12 or Croats?

13 A. When I was arrested, there were four men, but in the process of

14 the arresting, then more people came, so that altogether there were about

15 ten people that will were arrested.

16 Q. Out of these ten people who were making the arrests, they were out

17 there working together, were these police officers, or were there any

18 police officers?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were there soldiers?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where were these soldiers from that were making the arrests?

23 A. A number of them were from the municipality of Bosanski Samac,

24 while the rest were people that I didn't know.

25 Q. Did you later find out where these people were from?

Page 11551

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And where were they from?

3 A. I think that they were from Serbia. I concluded that based on the

4 way they spoke.

5 Q. And what was it about the way they spoke?

6 A. They had a specific accent which told me that they were from

7 Serbia.

8 Q. All right. Once they arrested this group of people, where did

9 they bring you?

10 A. They took me to the headquarters of the Territorial Defence in

11 Bosanski Samac.

12 Q. And is that located right across the street from the police

13 station?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And when you got there, what happened?

16 A. When we arrived, they started beating us, right away, the minute

17 we got there, as people were coming out of the truck, they were beaten.

18 Q. So you got off the truck, you and these seven others, and you were

19 beaten immediately. Who beat you?

20 A. The same people who arrested us also beat us.

21 Q. And after you were beaten, where did you go?

22 A. We went to a small room in the headquarters of the Territorial

23 Defence. That's where they took us.

24 Q. But prior to that, prior to going to that small room where you

25 were held, later held, did you go into the courtyard of the TO?

Page 11552

1 A. Yes. That's where we came out of the truck, into the courtyard of

2 the TO.

3 Q. And did you have to line up first?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. WEINER: Now, Your Honour, to move things along, I'd like to

6 read some paragraphs to him and ask him if these are accurate, these

7 statements.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

9 MR. WEINER:

10 Q. Paragraphs 29 through 34 of the new statement. Sir, what I'm

11 going to do is read to you from the Prosecutor's notes that were taken

12 from you recently and ask you if this information is accurate, rather than

13 spending about an hour testifying, we can do this very quickly.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, before you do that, just for the sake

15 of clarity, you say, first of all, here, you're going to read

16 paragraphs 29 and 34 of the new statement, but then you mention the

17 Prosecutor's notes. So can we make sure whether it's the statement that

18 was taken for 92 bis reasons, and if so, have the date and/or the date

19 that the Prosecutor's notes were taken, if we're talking about something

20 different. Just so that we all understand what we are talking about.

21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, this was the -- these were -- these --

22 this really isn't a statement. This was taken for purposes of 92 bis.

23 However, when -- between the time that this statement was taken and the

24 arrival of the witness, the policy changed. As a result, the witness

25 hasn't reviewed this in 92 bis fashion, hasn't signed it. However,

Page 11553

1 yesterday we went over these notes, as we spoke in the proofing session

2 yesterday. So what I was going to do is read those to him, see if he does

3 agree, and if those are in fact the facts. Otherwise --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But you are reading this statement as the

5 evidence of the witness?

6 MR. WEINER: If he adopts it, it becomes the evidence of the

7 witness, if he makes changes, that plus it's changes are the evidence. If

8 he doesn't adopt it, then none of it becomes evidence.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

10 MR. WEINER:

11 Q. "We arrived at the Territorial Defence building at Bosanski Samac,

12 at about 3.00 or 3.30 p.m. Boban Radulovic and the other soldiers and

13 policemen beat me and the other men in my group as we came off the truck.

14 I do not remember who specifically beat me."

15 Sir, is that an accurate portrayal of what happened to you when

16 you got off the truck?

17 A. Yes

18 Q. "We were then put in a line against the wall, in the enclosed

19 courtyard of the Territorial Defence building. One by one we were called

20 forward and asked provocative questions. They asked me how many Serbs I

21 killed, how many Serbian women I raped, and how many children I killed

22 with a knife. I did not have any time to answer the questions. I was

23 immediately hit and fell to the ground. They hit me with their fists,

24 police batons, and metal pipes, on my face, fingers, kidney area, legs,

25 and feet.

Page 11554

1 Four additional soldiers joined the beatings. Three of these

2 soldiers went by the nicknames of Lugar, Laki, and Pukovnik. I believe

3 the fourth man went by the name of Crni. I learned these nicknames when

4 they would address each other. I was beaten by Laki, Crni, and the

5 others, who I do not know."

6 Sir, so far what I read, is that an accurate portrayal of happened

7 to you at the Territorial Defence building on May 2nd, 1992?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I'll continue:

10 "We were beaten until about 5.00 to 5.30 p.m. I was one of the

11 first men who was beaten. I lost consciousness and did not see who beat

12 the other men. I believe I regained consciousness relatively quickly.

13 The soldiers and policemen were hosing us down to revive us. I saw other

14 men lying unconscious next to me. They were also being hosed down with

15 the water. We were not the only ones to be brought in that day. There

16 were other non-Serb males who were brought in on military trucks that

17 day. We were about 20 persons."

18 Sir, what I just read to you, is that an accurate portrayal of

19 what had happened to you on that date?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Let's continue:

22 "We were taken as a group and placed in one room inside the

23 building. Inside this room, there were already over 40 other men. They

24 were all non-Serb men. Muslims and Croats from Bosanski Samac itself and

25 neighbouring villages. I had difficulty walking, as my feet had swelled

Page 11555

1 after the beating. I noticed my hands were swollen and black and blue.

2 My fingernails were also black and blue. These fingernails eventually

3 fell off later, as the nails healed. I was bruised all over my body. My

4 nose and lip were bleeding. My right eye was swollen shut. The other

5 eight men who were brought to the Territorial Defence building with me

6 also were wounded from this beating. Some of them were in worse shape

7 than me."

8 Sir, is that an accurate portrayal of what happened to you on

9 May 2nd, 1992?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Let's continue.

12 " We had just enough time to find a place to sit, when Laki,

13 Lugar, Pukovnik, and others, and those others whom I do not know, started

14 taking out most of the men who were in this room. These guards would

15 point out individuals or groups of two or three men. The guards left the

16 door open and I could see out into the courtyard. I saw the men being

17 beaten. I was called out and beaten in the courtyard. I saw that some of

18 the men were already unconscious. Those men who were conscious following

19 the beating returned to the room. Those who were unconscious remained

20 outside until they regained consciousness. When they came to, they had to

21 return to the room."

22 Is that an accurate portrayal of what happened on that date in

23 1992?

24 A. Yes

25 Q. "I saw Boban Radulovic beat Zlatko Karalic. I was beaten by Laki,

Page 11556

1 Crni, and some other soldiers whom I did not know. Laki, Crni, Pukovnik,

2 and Lugar introduced themselves to us as members of Seselj's group, the

3 White Eagles.

4 After I was beaten, I returned to the room. The soldiers

5 continued to come back into the room the entire night. The people who

6 were not beaten had to sing Chetnik songs. There were no toilet

7 facilities. We received no water or food. During my detention at the

8 Territorial Defence camp, I do not believe anyone from my room was

9 killed."

10 Sir, is that an accurate portrayal of what occurred on that date?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, are we breaking at 11.00 or 11.30 today?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: At 11.

14 MR. WEINER:

15 Q. Sir, how long were you held in the TO at that initial visit to the

16 facility?

17 A. Less than two days.

18 Q. Let's move to the next day. Where were you brought on the next

19 day?

20 A. I was taken across the street to the building of the then police

21 station in Bosanski Samac.

22 MR. WEINER: Time to break, Your Honour?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll have a break until 11.30 hours.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

Page 11557

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. The Prosecution is proceeding.

2 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

3 Q. Sir, when we left off, you were being held the first day at the

4 TO, and then that second day they brought you across the street to the

5 police station. Sometime when you were at the TO, in the police station,

6 on that second day, did they bring you anywhere to get you any food?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Were you ever brought anywhere while you were being held in

9 Bosanski Samac for food?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where were you brought?

12 A. The restaurant of the Sit work organisation.

13 Q. So you were brought to the -- what you call the cafeteria or

14 restaurant at that company?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And when you were there, did you see any of the defendants?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who did you see?

19 A. Mr. Simo Zaric.

20 Q. And what was Simo Zaric doing -- or first, where was he when you

21 saw him?

22 A. He was standing with some colleagues of his, and his back was

23 turned to me and to the entrance door.

24 Q. Now, where were you taken after you were fed at the Sit company?

25 A. Again, they returned us to the Territorial Defence headquarters.

Page 11558

1 Q. How much time had you spent at the SUP, or the police building,

2 that day?

3 A. Well, I stayed there for perhaps three or four hours.

4 Q. Let me read this statement, paragraph 41, and why don't you tell

5 me if this is an accurate depiction of what happened at the police station

6 on the morning of May 3rd:

7 "The next morning, 3rd of May, possibly around 9.00 a.m., six or

8 seven of us were brought over to the prison in the police building. One

9 of those in the cells was Luka Gregurovic, who had been with the police.

10 He was so badly beaten, he could hardly talk. I stayed in the prison for

11 about three days. During this time I heard screaming all the time, coming

12 from other parts of the building. I was beaten every day except one. On

13 each of these days, I was beaten two or three times, sometimes even more.

14 One of the soldiers I saw there was Slobodan Vakic, nicknamed

15 Zvaka. Two or three other soldiers would also beat me, but I do not know

16 their names. The people who would come in and beat us were Serb

17 paramilitaries with Serb accents. They would use police batons or

18 implements, like table legs and so on, to beat us. We did have access to

19 the toilet. We got a piece of bread, maybe with a tiny amount of

20 marmalade or something. We had no opportunity to wash ourselves, and we

21 were covered in dried blood and stank. Most of the time, the beatings

22 occurred in front of the other detainees to instil a sense of fear.

23 Savo Cancarevic was present during most of these beatings."

24 Is that a true and accurate statement of what happened over the

25 next few days?

Page 11559

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Sir, now, you indicated that you were there three days, but you

3 just testified that you were there and then they brought you back to the

4 TO. Were they bringing you back and forth over the next few days?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On the following day, were you brought to the SUP?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And tell the Court what happened on the following day in relation

9 to an interrogation that occurred.

10 A. On that day, I was interrogated by Mr. Milos Savic, an inspector

11 in the then SUP.

12 Q. Now, what condition were you in when you went there?

13 A. I had been beaten up. I could not control my own movements. I

14 was not psychologically or physically ready to negotiate.

15 Q. Did you want to be questioned or interrogated at that time?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, let me read this paragraph to you concerning that interview:

18 "I was interrogated by Milos Savic, a police inspector. I knew

19 him. I asked him at the end what was going on, what would happen to me.

20 He said they need to take statements, and then they will release people.

21 This never happened. He asked me general information about my family and

22 my life. He also asked about weapons and how many tanks we had, and so

23 on. I could not answer anything, as we had no weapons. He made me sign

24 something. I did not read what it was, but he read something to me.

25 All that was in this was personal details about my family history,

Page 11560

1 marital status, my work and hobbies. I signed it, as I did not dare

2 refuse. I was not beaten during this interrogation. Armed people would

3 come into the room as this interrogation was going on. At the time I gave

4 this interrogation, I had the same clothes, with all the bloodstains. I

5 was bruised and deformed."

6 Is that an accurate depiction of what happened on May 4th, during

7 the interrogation?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. After you were interrogated, did you remain in the SUP or did they

10 bring you back across to the TO?

11 A. I remained at the SUP building.

12 Q. Where were you held in the SUP building?

13 A. They held me on the first floor of the police building, the room

14 right next door to the room where I had been interrogated.

15 Q. When you say "the first floor," do you mean the ground floor or

16 the first floor above the ground?

17 A. The first floor above the ground.

18 MR. WEINER: May the witness be shown P14A, photograph 53,

19 please. Would you place that on the ELMO?

20 Q. Sir, do you recognise that building, first?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what is that building of -- or what's depicted in that

23 building?

24 A. The building that I'm looking at is the backside of the police

25 station in Bosanski Samac.

Page 11561

1 Q. Now, does it show where -- or can you see in that photograph the

2 window in relation to the room where you were being held for two days?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That room right there. Thank you.

5 A. [Indicates].

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that the top

7 floor, last window on the left, was identified by the witness as the room

8 where he was being held?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

10 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

11 Q. Sir, did you know any of the other prisoners being held in that

12 room?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And were these persons civilians that were being held or soldiers?

15 A. Civilians.

16 Q. Of what ethnic group did they belong?

17 A. Croat [As interpreted].

18 Q. Now, did you spend your whole time in the SUP in that room, or did

19 they hold you in any other room?

20 A. I did not spend the entire room -- the entire time in that room.

21 I was in other rooms at the SUP as well.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's a matter of accuracy of the transcript. The

24 question that my learned colleague posed was: Of what ethnic group did

25 they belong? And what we heard the witness say, he answered: "He was a

Page 11562

1 Croat." So the question was in plural, and the answer was: "He was a

2 Croat." So maybe my learned colleague can clarify that.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Weiner can do that.

4 MR. WEINER: That's fine.

5 Q. Sir, we want to clarify the record in relation to one of the

6 answers. I had previously asked you whether the persons who were being

7 held in that room with you at the SUP, or at the police station, were

8 civilians or military persons, and you indicated that they were

9 civilians. The next question was: "Of what ethnic group did those

10 civilians belong?" And could you please answer that question: Of what

11 ethnic group did those civilians who were being held with you belong?

12 A. Croat.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, were you eventually returned to the Territorial

14 Defence building?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And was that on or about May 6th, 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, that was probably the third time you had been to the

19 Territorial Defence building. Now, on any of those occasions, any of

20 those three occasions you had been to the Territorial Defence building,

21 did you see any of the defendants?

22 A. In the building, or rather, at the Territorial Defence

23 headquarters, no, but through the open door, through the open entrance

24 door to the Territorial Defence, I saw, in front of the police station,

25 Mr. Simo Zaric, but only in passing.

Page 11563

1 Q. Where were you standing at the time when you saw the defendant

2 Simo Zaric standing in front of the police station?

3 A. All of us were in the yard of the Territorial Defence.

4 Q. And what were you doing in -- sorry. What's --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: I do believe that the answer of the witness was

7 that he saw Simo Zaric only in passing, and the question next question of

8 my colleague was: "When you saw the defendant Simo Zaric standing in

9 front of the police station." So maybe the question was not following the

10 answer of the witness.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. It was a bit leading.

12 MR. WEINER: Okay. All right.

13 Q. Where were you when you saw Simo Zaric?

14 A. In the yard of the Territorial Defence.

15 Q. Who were you with?

16 A. It was a certain group of us, a group of prisoners who had been

17 taken out.

18 Q. What were you being taken out for?

19 A. Just as they had taken us out before that, in order to maltreat us

20 and hit us and things like that.

21 Q. Now, when you saw Simo Zaric, what was he doing? Was he

22 standing? Was he walking? Was he in a vehicle? What was he doing?

23 A. As I said, I saw him in passing then. For a moment a man went by

24 him and he stopped very briefly. I don't know whether he uttered a word

25 or two, and then they parted.

Page 11564

1 Q. All right. Now, also, let's look at that last time that you were

2 at the Territorial Defence building. Were you visited on or about

3 May 6th, 1992, by the International Red Cross?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When did you first learn that the Red Cross were going to be

6 visiting that day?

7 A. That's the day I found out, the same day that they visited us.

8 Q. Did someone tell you that they were going to be visiting you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who told you what?

11 A. The guards.

12 Q. What did they tell you?

13 A. That the International Red Cross would come and that we should pay

14 attention to what we were going to say.

15 Q. What condition were you and the other prisoners in when the Red

16 Cross visited?

17 A. We were beaten up, disfigured. Quite simply, we were incapable of

18 any conversation or proper behaviour.

19 Q. Did the Red Cross visit on that date?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did they do when they visited?

22 A. They made a list and they put questions. Most of the questions

23 were identical: Did they beat you? How do you spend the day? How do you

24 spend the night? Do you eat? Do you go to the toilet? Things like that.

25 Q. Did you answer them truthfully, that you had been beaten and you

Page 11565

1 were barely receiving any food?

2 A. I could not say the truth.

3 Q. Why couldn't you tell the Red Cross that you had been beaten?

4 A. I could not tell them for the following reason: When the persons

5 from the International Red Cross walked into the room, the door remained

6 open. The guards were about two or three metres away from us, and they

7 could hear everything I would say.

8 Q. What would have happened to you if you had told the truth?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: Calling for speculation.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, yes.

12 MR. WEINER:

13 Q. How long did the Red Cross stay?

14 A. They stayed for as long as they needed to make this list. I don't

15 know how much time it actually was.

16 Q. While you were at the TO, up to that date, from basically the TO

17 and the police station, from the 2nd to the 6th, were you visited by

18 anyone with any sort of medical background? Were you visited by any

19 doctors, nurses, medical personnel of any kind?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did Dr. Simic visit you and care for any prisoners?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Let's move to the next day, on May 7th. Were you transferred

24 anywhere on May 7th?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11566

1 Q. Where did they move you?

2 A. They moved us to the nearby village of Crkvina, to a warehouse

3 facility of Agropromet, from Bosanski Samac.

4 Q. How many people were moved to this warehouse facility owned by the

5 Agropromet company?

6 A. In that warehouse owned by the Agropromet company, there was a

7 total of 52 of us.

8 Q. Were all 52 from the TO?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Where were the others from?

11 A. Subsequently, a certain group of people came. Where they had been

12 before that, I do not know, but what I know for sure is that they were

13 from the municipality of Teslic.

14 MR. WEINER: May the witness be shown a group of photographs, 60,

15 61, 31, 32, and 63. 60 and 61 first, please.

16 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to look at that photograph number 60. Could you

17 tell us what that depicts.

18 A. It depicts the building where we were transferred from the

19 Territorial Defence.

20 Q. Is that the warehouse in Crkvina?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. WEINER: Could you go to photograph 61, please.

24 Q. And what is that depicted in photograph 61?

25 A. Photograph 61 depicts the entrance door of the mentioned building

Page 11567

1 where we were.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, could you describe the inside of that building,

3 sir.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Please describe it to the Court.

6 A. As for the interior of the building, there was no roof. There

7 were just wooden planks. As soon as you'd walk in, on the other side

8 there was a small office, perhaps one and a half metres by two metres,

9 something like that. On the right-hand side, at the very end of the

10 building -- I mean, at that moment when we walked in, there was a certain

11 number of sacks. Now, whether this was seed or fertilizer for improving

12 the quality of the land, I really don't know, but at any rate, there were

13 some sacks.

14 Q. What sort of lighting did they have inside?

15 A. There was no lighting.

16 Q. And what material was the floor made out of?

17 A. The floor was made of concrete.

18 Q. Now, did you sit on the concrete floor or did you sit on the

19 sacks, or where did you sit when you got there?

20 A. When we just got there, somebody was sitting on the sacks, but

21 since there wasn't enough room for all, then the rest sat on the concrete

22 floor.

23 MR. WEINER: Now could the Witness be shown photographs 31, 62,

24 and 63, please.

25 Q. Sir, could you tell us what that is?

Page 11568

1 A. The interior of the building where we were.

2 Q. And where would the door, the entry door that we just saw in the

3 previous picture, be located?

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. WEINER: Could you place photograph 63 there.

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Weiner. This building, though,

8 that we're seeing now has a roof, and the witness had said there was no

9 roof. Could we ...

10 MR. WEINER: Yes. This photograph was taken by -- this photograph

11 was taken by a Netherlands police several years later, I believe 1998.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I presumed that, but I mean for the sake of

13 clarity, the witness has said there was no roof. Now we see a photograph

14 with a roof. It might be useful to have that on the record.

15 MR. WEINER: Sure.

16 Q. Sir, was this roof that you see depicted in this photograph on

17 that building at that time that you were held there in 1992?

18 A. In my previous statement, I said that there was no ceiling, but

19 actually, I meant that there was a roof. I was trying to say that there

20 was no attic. When we say "ceiling," we mean attic. But there was a

21 roof, and I said that there were wooden planks. I meant that there were

22 wooden planks underneath the roof itself. I hope that I have now

23 clarified what I meant when I said then.

24 Q. Thank you. Could you please -- that's number 63 that's there

25 now? Thank you. Let's move to about 10.00 p.m. on that evening, May 7th,

Page 11569

1 1992. Did something happen at that time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell the Chamber what happened.

4 A. Around 10.00 on that date, on the 7th of May, three men came. Of

5 the three of them, one of them was called Lugar, one Crni, and the third

6 man was called Pukovnik, Colonel. But I heard a couple of times that they

7 called him Debeli, fat man, and sometimes they called him Pukovnik. And

8 they were trying to enter the premises, but the door to the building was

9 locked.

10 The front of the building has three small windows in the upper

11 part of the building. One of them climbed up to that small window. How,

12 I don't know. But it's true that he shone the interior of the building

13 from that small window. He broke the window and he shouted at all of us

14 to get up and to line up, which is what we did. He wanted us to open the

15 door. We couldn't open the door because it was locked. He chose three

16 men and ordered us to break down the door, and they broke down the door.

17 They carried out this order. They came through this door that had been

18 broken, those three men, and then after that followed what happened next,

19 the murders.

20 Q. All right. Before the murders, let me ask you a few questions.

21 Where were the guards who were guarding the prisoners at the time?

22 A. The guards who were guarding us were around the building.

23 Q. Did they stop those three men from entering?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Let's take the three men, one at a time. You indicated that one

Page 11570

1 of them went by the name of Debeli. Did Debeli have anything in his hands

2 when he came in?

3 A. Yes. Debeli came into the building with a hunting rifle, with a

4 sawed-off barrel.

5 Q. Do you know the names of the other two that entered with Debeli?

6 A. Yes. One of them was called Slobodan Miljkovic, Lugar, and the

7 other one I only know by his nickname, Crni.

8 Q. Let's take Crni first. Did Crni have any weapons or was he

9 holding anything?

10 A. Yes. Crni had a pistol.

11 Q. And the third person, Lugar, did he have anything in his hands?

12 A. Yes. Lugar had a flashlight.

13 Q. Now, when they entered, where were the prisoners at that time?

14 A. When they entered the building, we were lined up against the wall,

15 on the front side of the building.

16 Q. Prior to lining up, where were you sitting?

17 A. We were sitting, like I said, some people were sitting on sacks

18 and some people were sitting where they chose to, on the floor.

19 Q. Let us look at photograph 63, which is on the ELMO. Could you

20 show us where were the sacks at that time that the prisoners were sitting?

21 A. [Indicates].

22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that the witness

23 identified the wall towards the far end of the photograph.

24 Q. Now, where did they walk in to the building?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That is the place where the sacks were?

Page 11571

1 MR. WEINER: Where the sacks were, yes.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: On which the prisoners were sitting?

3 MR. WEINER: Yes.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Yes.

5 MR. WEINER:

6 Q. And where is the doorway in this photograph? Approximately where

7 is the doorway?

8 A. [Indicates].

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that the witness

10 is pointing to an area to the right of the sacks that are in that picture,

11 if you're facing the picture, just to the right of those sacks. It's just

12 outside the photograph.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 MR. WEINER: Okay.

15 Q. Now, they told you to line up, you and the prisoners, to line up?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recall who told you to line up?

18 A. Yes. Lugar.

19 Q. Now, when you lined up, show us on the photograph where you were

20 lined up, with the pointer. Which wall?

21 A. [Indicates].

22 MR. WEINER: May the record reflect that they were lined up at the

23 wall where the grain or seed sacks are now in that photograph.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

Page 11572

1 Q. Now, what did Lugar, Debeli, and Crni do after they came in?

2 You're lined up against that wall which is under the windows. What did

3 they do, or where did they go?

4 A. They entered the building and stayed somewhere in the middle of

5 that space.

6 Q. And Lugar -- let's start off with Lugar. Was he standing or

7 sitting?

8 A. Lugar was sitting.

9 Q. On what?

10 A. He was sitting on a chair.

11 Q. And was he facing the prisoners?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what about Crni and Debeli? What were they doing?

14 A. Crni and Debeli were standing.

15 Q. Now, what did Lugar do? Did he do something with a flashlight?

16 A. Yes. Lugar pointed the flashlight at each prisoner.

17 Q. Now, what would happen when Lugar would point the flashlight at a

18 prisoner?

19 A. Lugar pointed the light at each individual prisoner and then they

20 would pick people, Crni, Lugar, or Pukovnik, and they would pick people to

21 come up to them.

22 Q. Now, what happened to those persons that were chosen to come up to

23 Lugar? Let's start off -- do you know who the first one was that was

24 chosen or selected?

25 A. Yes. Mr. Jozo Antunovic was there, from Gornji Hasici.

Page 11573

1 Q. All right. Please tell the Tribunal, or the Trial Chamber, what

2 happened after Jozo Antunovic was selected and approached Lugar, Debeli,

3 and Crni. Tell us what happened.

4 A. When he came up to the two of them, they started to beat him

5 immediately, to hit him, so that Jozan, that's what we called him, Jozan,

6 he fell down at their feet. And as soon as he fell, he got up right away

7 and started to run around this building. And he was behaving in a way

8 that was not quite clear to me, because I knew Jozan. So he started to

9 speak in an unintelligible way and it seemed to me as if he had been hit

10 on the lower back of the skull, and he had lost his capacity to talk and

11 everything else. And then immediately he went up to the place where the

12 sacks were, and he fell there and remained there.

13 Q. After he fell, did Lugar do anything to him?

14 A. Yes. Lugar took Pukovnik's rifle, put two bullets into the

15 barrel. This was a hunting rifle. And he fired both bullets into Jozan.

16 .

17 Q. What happened to this man Jozo, or Jozan, after he was shot?

18 A. After those two bullets, they turned their attention to us. They

19 left Jozan there. But after a few minutes, Jozan was showing some signs

20 of life. He was making a kind of gurgling noise, and Lugar heard that and

21 he took the rifle again and put a bullet inside and fired once again.

22 Q. Did he strike Jozan when he fired this third bullet?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When I say "did he strike," did he shoot him?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11574

1 Q. And after he shot him this third time, did Jozan, or

2 Mr. Antunovic, show any signs of life?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And could you, with that picture, show us where Jozan was when he

5 was shot and killed, using the pointer.

6 A. The sacks were here, and he was right in front of the sacks.

7 MR. WEINER: May the record reflect that the witness is pointing

8 middle to the rear of the -- it looks like the left wall.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

10 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

11 Q. Now, were any other persons called out after Mr. Antunovic was

12 shot and killed?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you please go on and tell us what happened to the next man

15 that got called.

16 A. The next man was beaten up, and afterwards he fainted. He lost

17 consciousness. But then when he came to again, they sent him down where

18 the bags were, the sacks.

19 Q. Who decided that that second man should be beaten?

20 A. I don't know who decided, but it's a fact that anybody who came to

21 Lugar, Debeli, or Crni, was either beaten or killed. Nobody managed to

22 get away without punishment.

23 Q. Now, the second man, did this process begin with Lugar shining the

24 flashlight on him too, just as he did with the first man, Mr. Antunovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11575

1 Q. So Lugar shone the flashlight, he was told to come forward. Who

2 beat him then?

3 A. I can't be specific, but it was either Debeli or Crni.

4 Q. Now, prior to the beatings, or the shootings of Mr. Antunovic and

5 this second gentleman, were they questioned? Were either of these persons

6 questioned?

7 A. Could you please explain your question? Are you thinking before

8 this happened?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Or there?

11 Q. Okay. No. Before -- let's go back to Crkvina.

12 The light would be -- Lugar would shine a light on a prisoner, the

13 prisoner would leave the line, approach Lugar, and at some point a

14 decision was made whether to shoot him or beat the person. Prior to that

15 decision to be made, whether to beat or shoot the person, did they

16 question that person? Did they ask him any questions: How old are you?

17 What's your name? Where do you live? Where were you born? Were you

18 asked any questions?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What sort of questions were asked?

21 A. They were asked their names, where are they from, where do they

22 live, where do they work, do they have a wife, do they have children.

23 Mostly they were just questions out of curiosity. They weren't

24 provocative questions.

25 Q. Now, the second man was spared. Were you called out? Did they

Page 11576

1 shine the flashlight on you and did you have to step forward?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell the Court what happened to you.

4 A. I was called out. I don't remember exactly which one I was.

5 Maybe I was the fourth or the fifth. I don't know exactly. But then when

6 I stood in front of them, Debeli hit me with that same rifle, because

7 before he took it from Mr. Lugar. So he hit me with the rifle on my

8 head. I fell down immediately, and I crouched in order to protect myself

9 from the following blows. I did receive a lot of blows and kicks in the

10 area of my kidneys and my head. I lost my consciousness and I was left

11 lying there. I don't know for how long. But the others told me that it

12 wasn't longer than three or four minutes. Then I came to again and then

13 they took me, and then I also went there to the place where the bags were,

14 the sacks.

15 Q. So you were beaten?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The next man who was called out, do you know his name?

18 A. Josip Orsolic.

19 Q. Could you tell us what happened to him?

20 A. When they called out Josip Orsolic, they asked him for his name,

21 where he was from, is he married. Josip said, "Yes, I am married. My

22 wife is a Serb." And he probably thought that that would make it easier

23 for him if he gave such an answer. And then Crni cursed his mother and

24 said, "How could you have married a Serbian woman?" And he pointed a

25 pistol to his temple. And he told him, "I will kill you now."

Page 11577

1 And at that moment, Josip said, "Please don't kill me." And Crni,

2 he didn't have any mercy, and he fired the pistol into Josip's temple, and

3 he fell down immediately and he wasn't showing any signs of life.

4 Q. Could you please point to -- using that picture, could you please

5 point to the area where Crni shot Josip in the head and killed him.

6 A. I would just like to say that all the murders were happening right

7 here in this part, except for Josip Antunovic, who was the last person who

8 was shot with the last bullet, and he was here.

9 MR. WEINER: The witness indicated that the murders occurred in

10 front of the sacks that are there, and Josip's murder was across from the

11 sacks, going away from the sacks, across towards the opposite wall.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MR. WEINER:

14 Q. Now, after the murder of Josip, that's two murders, how many

15 people were killed in this first round of killings?

16 A. Nine people were killed. But I just wanted to add something to my

17 previous answer. When I mentioned the places where the killings took

18 place, I'm thinking about the first round of the killings.

19 Q. All right. That's what we're talking about right now, the first

20 round of killings.

21 Now, the other seven men that were killed, did that follow the

22 same process, where Lugar would first shine a light on that person, they

23 would come out, step out in front of the line, approach Lugar, Crni, and

24 Debeli, and some sort of decision would be made whether to murder them or

25 beat them? Is that the process that continued to follow? I'm also

Page 11578

1 assuming that after being questioned, a decision was made whether to

2 murder them or beat them.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, I would like to read a note from your statement as to the

5 names of the persons that were killed. Paragraph 60:

6 "I can name nine men who were killed during this round of

7 questioning, from the opstina Bosanski Samac. Their names were

8 Josip Orsolic, about 50 years old, from Domaljevac; Luka Gregurevic, about

9 35 to 38 years old, from Domaljevac; Jozo Antunovic, about 35 years old,

10 from Gornji Hasici; Luka Blazanovic, about 35 years old, from

11 Donji Hasici; Niko Brandic, about 30 to 32 years old, from Donji Hasici;

12 Ilija Matic, about 45 years old, from Babina Greda, Croatia; Ivo Mijic,

13 about 38 years old, from Grebnice; Ivan Agatic, about 25 years old, from

14 Tursinovac; and a man from Bosanski Samac who was about 30 to 33 years

15 old."

16 Were those the persons that were murdered on that evening in the

17 first round of the killings by Lugar, Crni, and Debeli?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. After that first group of nine people were murdered, what did

20 Lugar do next?

21 A. There was an order to move to the opposite wall, to line up along

22 the wall, on the other side.

23 Q. Using the pointer, could you show us the wall that you had to line

24 up after the first set of murders or the first set of killings.

25 A. [Indicates].

Page 11579

1 MR. WEINER: May the record reflect that the witness has

2 identified the wall which is opposite the seed bags.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

4 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Now, were you lined up with the other prisoners at that wall?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where were Lugar, Debeli, and Crni at that point?

8 A. At that moment, Lugar switched places, but he was also sitting in

9 the chair. Debeli and Crni stayed in the same place, in the middle of the

10 room. That was where they were standing.

11 Q. So when you said Lugar switched places, do you mean he turned the

12 chair around to face the new wall, or the opposite wall?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did Lugar do with the flashlight?

15 A. He was doing the same thing that he was doing before.

16 Q. And just tell the Court what he did next.

17 A. He would shine the flashlight on each person, pointing it at that

18 person's face, so that Debeli and Crni would then decide who would be

19 called out of the line.

20 Q. Now, did they call anyone out? Was anyone called out at that

21 time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. During this second round, how many people were called out?

24 A. We were all called out.

25 Q. And what happened when you got called out?

Page 11580

1 A. They beat us again.

2 Q. Did they question you first?

3 A. Yes, and they were also asking certain questions.

4 Q. Do you recall what questions they were asking?

5 A. The questions were quite the opposite from before. The questions

6 were now: How many weapons were there Hasici, [redacted], where did we

7 dig trenches, and so on. So the questions were mostly about weapons,

8 information about weapons.

9 Q. Now, what happened when you got called out?

10 A. They put a question to me, a question that pertained to

11 Gornji Hasici. I answered them. Then I was beaten, but I was beaten much

12 less than I was the first time.

13 Q. Now, you indicated that there was a group of men from Teslic, the

14 municipality of Teslic, that were also there being held, or being held

15 there.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. During this second round of questioning, did something happen to

18 some of the men from Teslic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What happened to the men from Teslic?

21 A. Seven men were killed.

22 Q. Now, can you tell us: Were they all killed at the same time, or

23 were they killed separately when they were called out? Tell us what

24 happened.

25 A. Each and every one of them was killed individually. Every one of

Page 11581

1 them was called out to come to Debeli or Crni. Let me just say that there

2 were more than seven of them from Teslic. There were more of them. But

3 the total number of persons from Teslic killed was seven. That is to say,

4 each and every one of them was killed individually, and each and every one

5 of them had previously talked either to Crni or Debeli.

6 Q. And were all these killings in the middle of the room, as these

7 people had stepped out to be questioned?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now --

10 A. Except for one case.

11 Q. All right. We'll get to that one case. But that's the one by the

12 seed bags? Is that the one that was hiding?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So in this round, other than the one that was hiding, six were

15 killed, six men from Teslic, initially?

16 A. Yes, but I said what the total number of people from Teslic was.

17 Q. Okay. We'll get to that one. Let's -- we now have nine killed in

18 the first group, six killed in the second group, for a total of fifteen

19 killed, people have been murdered, by Lugar, Crni, and Debeli. After they

20 killed those initial 15 people, what does Lugar do at that point?

21 A. Again we were lined up, all of us, and we were counted.

22 Q. Where were you lined up this time?

23 A. They lined us up against the wall where we had been lined up the

24 first time.

25 Q. And they start to count you. And tell us what happens.

Page 11582

1 A. When they counted us, the number of killed persons and the number

2 of survivors did not correspond to each other. In the building there had

3 been a total of 52 of us. Fifteen people had been killed, and there were

4 36 of us remaining there. So then when you add the two up, that is 51.

5 So one man was missing.

6 They asked us where -- or rather, first they asked us how many of

7 us there had been originally, and we said the way it was. And then they

8 said, "One man is missing." We did not know -- in fact, we did not know

9 that one of the men, while he was in the zone where he was standing, while

10 it was dark, he went and hid behind the sandbags that were already in the

11 warehouse. Crni took a pistol and went to the seed bags to see whether he

12 was hiding there perhaps. And he said, "Oh, so you're there." And then

13 he found him, he said, "Oh, so you're there. You're hiding, "nothing

14 else. He fired a bullet and killed the man who was among the sacks. The

15 man had been from Teslic.

16 Q. So now a total of 16 people were killed on that evening in

17 Crkvina?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. After Crni shot that man, what did he do next?

20 A. After all of that, they left the room and went away.

21 Q. Did they leave that man by the sacks or did they tell you to move

22 him, or did they tell you to do anything before they left? Did they say

23 anything to you?

24 A. Yes. The man remained there by the sacks at that moment, but we

25 carried him out when we took out the killed men.

Page 11583

1 Q. So you're in the room. What's your mental state at that time.

2 You're in a room with 16 dead bodies, you've been beaten, the others have

3 been beaten. How do you feel at that time?

4 A. It seems to me that I was in a state of shock. I don't know how I

5 survived that night. It was awful.

6 Q. Where were the guards while all this was happening?

7 A. The guards were still outside.

8 Q. Did you know any of these guards? Were they locals? Were they

9 from some other area? Where were these guards from?

10 A. The guards were from Crkvina, for the most part.

11 Q. Were they police officers? Were they soldiers? If you know.

12 A. Yes. Mr. Djoko Pejcic was in uniform of the police that they had

13 established then. Tomasevic, Stevo Tomasevic, was in civilian clothes.

14 Maslic - I think his name is Djoko, but I'm not sure - was also wearing a

15 police uniform. And there were other men there, but I could not identify

16 them because they were a bit further away from the entrance door. As for

17 the men I've just mentioned, after all of that, they entered the warehouse

18 premises.

19 Q. How long after Lugar, Crni, and Debeli left did these police

20 officers enter the premises?

21 A. Well, approximately five minutes later, at the most.

22 Q. And what happens after they enter? What happens next?

23 A. After all of that, they spoke to some of us. I cannot be specific

24 now and say with who. Well, quite simply, they sort of asked us what had

25 happened and what this was all about, and it shouldn't have been that way,

Page 11584

1 and then they went out immediately. However, after they left, again not

2 much time went by and a truck arrived.

3 Q. Who was in the truck?

4 A. Sasa Maslic was the driver of the truck, from Bosanski Samac.

5 Q. And what happens?

6 A. He came and brought the truck to the entrance door, with the rear

7 end, that is. That means that the rear part of the truck faced the door.

8 And he gave us shovels, buckets. Some were given bigger cloths. And we

9 were all supposed to clean up with this. However, before that we had to

10 load the bodies of those 16 men onto the truck. We did all of that in the

11 presence of the police, or rather, the guards that I already mentioned.

12 Q. Let's take it one step at a time. You load the bodies on the

13 truck. Who did that work? Did the police load the bodies on the truck or

14 did you do that, you and the other prisoners?

15 A. We did that, and the other prisoners, or rather, I and the other

16 prisoners.

17 Q. Now, there are 16 people here that had been murdered. It's a

18 crime scene. Were any photographs taken?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were any measurements taken of the locations of the bodies inside

21 the building?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were each of the prisoners interviewed as to what had just

24 occurred there?

25 A. They were interviewed, but not every prisoner was interviewed.

Page 11585

1 Q. Now, you said that the prisoners loaded bodies onto the trucks.

2 When the trucks were full with the 16 bodies, what happened?

3 A. Then Mr. Djoko Pejcic asked who the men from Teslic were. A few

4 of them came up, and he singled out four men out of that group and said

5 that they should get into the truck.

6 Q. Did they go into the truck?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what happens to them?

9 A. When they entered the truck, Sasa got in, or rather, he ignited

10 the engine. He turned it on. And then the truck drove off in a direction

11 unbeknown to me.

12 Q. Did they ever return in the truck with the four men from Teslic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did you speak to those men from Teslic after they returned?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And what did they tell you?

17 A. Yes. I talked to one of them, and I asked him where he had gone.

18 Of course, he said to me that the four of them went to unload those men

19 into some -- not really some. Into a mass grave. And I asked

20 him, "Where? Can you tell me request approximately?" And he said, "I

21 don't know. I'm not from the area. I can't tell you anything with regard

22 to that question."

23 Q. These men from Teslic who were chosen, they said they're not from

24 the area. Where is Teslic in relation to Bosanski Samac?

25 A. Well, in my estimate, Teslic is about 80 kilometres away from

Page 11586

1 Bosanski Samac.

2 Q. So the men from Teslic were not familiar with the area; is that

3 what they told you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So that was in 1992 that that incident occurred. Now it's over

6 ten years later. Have any of those 16 bodies been recovered?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Now, you indicated that after the bodies were loaded, they gave

9 out some sort of rags or cloths and a shovel and buckets. What happened?

10 What were you supposed to do with that stuff?

11 A. We were supposed to bring the room into a certain state, or

12 rather, we were supposed to clean it up, clean up the blood, and in this

13 way eliminate all traces of the crime.

14 Q. What did the room look like? Before you started cleaning, what

15 did the place look like after 16 people had just been murdered there?

16 Describe to the Court what the scene was like.

17 A. The room was covered with blood. The floor was covered with

18 blood. There was a pool of blood, quite a lot of it. The walls were

19 sprayed with blood. So all of it was covered with blood.

20 Q. Were there any bones or any other pieces of tissue also present?

21 A. Yes. When Mr. Josip Orsolic was killed, it could be seen quite

22 well while he was being killed by Crni, when he fell, part of his skull

23 went about a metre, a metre and a half away, from the place where he fell,

24 and also part of his brains were spilled out. He was probably killed with

25 some kind of a bigger-calibre gun. I'm not very knowledgeable about these

Page 11587

1 things.

2 Q. Who had to clean the blood and brain matter and skull in that

3 warehouse?

4 A. I did that.

5 Q. Did anyone help you or did all the prisoners do this or just a

6 few?

7 A. Nobody helped me. I took a shovel and I shoveled up that little

8 piece of skull and brain and put it into the bucket, and I left the bucket

9 out there in the corner, in the corner of that building. And there were

10 some people who were taking these buckets outside. And now where they

11 threw this away, I don't know.

12 Q. How many times did they have to empty these buckets that were

13 being filled with blood and tissue and whatever?

14 A. Well, several times.

15 Q. After you cleaned the floors from the blood and skull and brain

16 matter, did you have to clean the walls too?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did any of the guards assist?

19 A. No.

20 Q. How long did it take you to clean that warehouse room?

21 A. Well, we cleaned it for about three hours, three to four hours,

22 that much in terms of time.

23 Q. Did anyone -- what did you look like after, you and the other

24 prisoners who were doing the cleaning? Did you get any blood on you or

25 were you able to wash?

Page 11588

1 A. Yes. Yes. Before that, I was covered with blood, and after that

2 I had even more blood on me, both I and the other prisoners.

3 Q. About 10.00 that morning, does anyone arrive from the police

4 station?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Before that, the question: Were you able to wash?

6 Wasn't answered.

7 MR. WEINER: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

8 Q. You said you got blood on you. Let's do it -- move a little

9 slowly. On what parts of your clothes or hands or body did you --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We don't need those details. Were they able to

11 wash?

12 MR. WEINER:

13 Q. Were you able to wash the blood off of you or your clothes?

14 A. No.

15 Q. What about the other prisoners?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Later that morning, about 10.00, did anyone come from the police

18 station?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who came?

21 A. Savo Popovic came, with a list, and Savo Jerinic came with keys.

22 Savo Jerinic, let me just mention, he comes from the village of Lugovi,

23 also the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

24 Q. And what did they do with the list of names?

25 A. Savo called out people's names in the following way: He would

Page 11589

1 read out a name, and if the prisoner would say that he was there, then he

2 would put a mark by his name. And if the man would not say anything, that

3 would mean that he had been killed, and then he would put a minus sign by

4 his name.

5 Q. How many people weren't there?

6 A. Sixteen.

7 Q. Now, at that time, did the police interview you or were you

8 interviewed previously? [Realtime transcript read in error "Q. Now, at

9 that time, did the police interview? JUDGE ORIE: Q. Now, at that time,

10 did they interview you...]

11 A. Previously they did not interview them. Their names were called

12 out only, and that meant they had done their job. Savo Maslic came, from

13 Crkvina, and he welded the door that had been broken. And Savo Jerinic

14 locked the door and then they went their own way.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Weiner. We have something a

16 little strange in the transcript here, page 65, line 22. Question from

17 you: Now, at that time did the police interview. Line 24, or line 23, we

18 have Judge Orie. He obviously isn't in the Trial Chamber number 2, and I

19 don't think your question maybe was fully on the record. So could we

20 clarify both those issues, please.

21 MR. WEINER:

22 Q. Thank you, when the police came that morning and they call the

23 list, you said that they interviewed you earlier. Let's talk about what

24 the police did. Did they interview you then concerning the incident? Did

25 they interview each of the witnesses, the survivors, as to what occurred?

Page 11590

1 Were you interviewed then by the police?

2 A. No. Nobody talked to me except that I had to speak up when my

3 name was called out. As for the rest of the prisoners, I also think not.

4 Except if you can call it an interview, if I ask Savo Popovic -- I

5 asked, "Savo, did this have to happen? Why did this happen?" If you

6 consider that to be an interview.

7 Q. What about when the first -- when the police first got there,

8 before they had you clean up? You indicated no photographs or

9 measurements were taken, but there were some interviews. What sort of

10 interviews were done then? Did they tape an interview? Was there

11 anything written down in a notebook or on paper as to what each of you

12 said?

13 A. No. No. Nothing was written down. These conversations had to do

14 with everything that had happened. Why it had to happen. There was no

15 need for that. This would smear the name of the village, to a great

16 extent. So these were conversations in passing. These were not specific

17 interviews.

18 Q. Okay. Now, do you remain at Crkvina for the rest of the day, or

19 are you brought somewhere else?

20 A. That same day, they returned us to the Territorial Defence

21 headquarters.

22 Q. When you returned to the Territorial Defence building, or the TO,

23 was anyone there to greet you?

24 A. I don't know who you're referring to. Are you referring to some

25 persons of responsibility or soldiers? At any rate, we were unloaded

Page 11591

1 again at the Territorial Defence headquarters, and we went to the same

2 room where we had been before.

3 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, do you want to break now or ...

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can take our break now and resume our

5 proceedings at 1430 hours this afternoon.

6 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.59 p.m.

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Page 11592

1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is continuing. The

3 proceedings will go on up to 5 minutes before 1600 hours, so that we

4 discuss one or two matters.

5 MR. WEINER:

6 Q. Good afternoon.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness please speak up? The interpreters

10 say so.

11 If he can come forward, nearer the microphones.

12 MR. WEINER: All right.

13 Q. Now, when we left off, you had been transferred back from Crkvina

14 to the Territorial Defence building in Bosanski Samac. When you arrived,

15 did you see any of the Serbs paramilitaries at the TO building, or the

16 Territorial Defence building?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who was there?

19 A. Mostly the people that I've already mentioned. In any case, Lugar

20 was there again.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, this was still in the month of May?

22 MR. WEINER: Yes. We're talking about on approximately May 8th,

23 1992.

24 Q. You went to Crkvina on May 7th and you returned approximately

25 May 8th; is that correct?

Page 11593

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Now, when you get back, does Lugar have you do something in the

3 courtyard?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you recall in your statement to the Prosecutor, approximately a

6 month ago, that you indicated that Lugar ordered us to stand in a row in

7 the courtyard"? And then he had some conversation with you where he

8 introduced himself. Do you recall that?

9 A. This usually happened every time we went and came back. We had to

10 line up. That was quite normal for me. We did line up and he did say a

11 few words to us.

12 Q. Do you remember him saying, "How are you? All of you who are

13 still alive can thank me. Slobodan Miljkovic, Lugar, because you should

14 have all been killed," and that he looked very proud, or is said it in a

15 very proud way? Do you recall that?

16 A. Yes, I do, and it's all true.

17 Q. Now, how long did you and the other prisoners remain in the TO, in

18 the Territorial Defence building, on that day, May 8th?

19 A. When we came out into the yard of the Territorial Defence

20 building, we didn't stay there for long. And I'm thinking of myself and a

21 couple of my colleagues. The three of us were transferred to the SUP

22 building again.

23 Q. And from the SUP building, what happened?

24 A. After that, I just wanted to say that this time I was in the

25 prison cells in the SUP, and then from there, from the prison cells, my

Page 11594

1 two colleagues, Ivo Tufekovic and Djuro Vuckovic, we were called out. We

2 came out into the hall of the SUP building.

3 Q. And what happened when you went to the hall of the SUP building?

4 A. They put blindfolds on my eyes, also Ivo and Djuro's eyes, and

5 they tied our hands -- or they put cuff links on our hands, all together.

6 Q. You said cuff links. Do you mean handcuffs?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And where did they take you? Where did they bring you next?

9 A. Then they took us to the prison in Pelagicevo. I think that

10 Pelagicevo is part of the Gradacac municipality.

11 Q. How did you know you were in Pelagicevo?

12 A. Because there was a certain number of prisoners there already, and

13 they told us it was Pelagicevo.

14 Q. Now, during that day that you spent in Bosanski Samac, where so

15 many of you had been beaten, were you given any medical assistance? Were

16 you visited by a doctor?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Dr. Blagoje Simic didn't come and visit you at the prison and aid

19 any prisoners, did he?

20 A. No, he didn't come.

21 Q. Now, once you were at Pelagicevo, did you stay there very long?

22 A. I stayed there for three to four hours, at the most.

23 Q. And what happened from there? Where did they bring you after

24 three to four hours?

25 A. After that a helicopter came, and myself, Djuro, Ivo, and a couple

Page 11595

1 of others were called out, and we got into the helicopter. And I don't

2 know where we went, where our destination was, but it turned out that the

3 final destination was Batajnica, in Serbia.

4 Q. Now, were you and the other prisoners -- let's take a step back.

5 When you first got onto the helicopter in Pelagicevo, were you and the

6 other prisoners beaten?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, do you know a man by the name of Stevan Todorovic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you see him that day?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I'd like to read a portion of your statement:

13 "Stevo --" paragraph 74:

14 "Stevo was at Pelagicevo when we were transported, blindfolded me

15 and tied my hands behind my back with thin wire. He said to me whether I

16 knew where I was going. I said that I didn't know, and he said that they

17 were taking me where they would make sausage meat out of me. We were

18 transported by truck to where there was a helicopter waiting for us. When

19 we came into the helicopter, we had to feel around for a place to sit.

20 Someone came from the back of the helicopter, hit me in the back

21 of my head, and said: Open your mouth. The man started to pull my tooth

22 out. As I jerked away, my blindfold fell and I could see

23 Stevan Todorovic, and it appeared to be him who was pulling my tooth. He

24 succeeded in pulling out my tooth and did the same to Djuro Vuckovic.

25 When he saw the blindfold had fallen down, he hit me.

Page 11596

1 At this moment, I could also see other men and a casket in the

2 helicopter. I did not know the other men on the helicopter or who might

3 have been in the casket. Stevo continued to beat me, possibly because my

4 blindfold fell and I could see what he was doing."

5 Is that what occurred on that helicopter on or about May 8th,

6 1992?

7 A. Yes, that's how it happened.

8 Q. Now, you indicated that you had flown eventually to Serbia. Where

9 in Serbia did they bring you in the helicopter?

10 A. I was at the military investigative prison in Batajnica. That's

11 what we called it, at least.

12 Q. How were you treated by the guards when you got to the military

13 prison in Batajnica, Serbia?

14 A. The guards behaved in the same way as the guards in

15 Bosanski Samac, I think.

16 Q. Why do you say that? Explain to the Chamber, please.

17 A. They beat us, mistreated us, and humiliated us, in all possible

18 ways.

19 Q. I would like to read a paragraph to you, paragraph 83:

20 "On one occasion, the beating was so severe, my ribs were broken."

21 Flowing into paragraph 84:

22 "I received a scar on the left side of my nose and over my right

23 eye. The guards put cigarettes out on my neck and shoulders. They beat

24 me in areas where the bone was prominent, like on the elbows, knees,

25 ankles, and hips. They would systematically beat me over the kidneys. On

Page 11597

1 one occasion, other detainees and I were beaten over a 36-hour period.

2 The guard shifts would be about every four hours, and with each

3 new shift we would be beaten. The guards only stopped when they were

4 tired or wanted to smoke cigarettes. During this beating, I lost

5 consciousness about ten times during the day. I would be in and out of

6 consciousness. I believe the beatings were aimed to slowly kill me.

7 After a guard finished beating me and I was lying in my blood on the

8 floor, the guard would ask: Did someone beat you? I would beg the guard

9 to kill me. The guards would respond: I can never kill you quickly,

10 because a bullet would be too expensive."

11 Does that portray a group of the beatings which occurred while you

12 were in Batajnica, Serbia?

13 A. It's all true.

14 Q. Now, sir, while you were there, were you brought for some sort of

15 trial in Serbia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you tell the Court about that?

18 A. I had two trial sessions at the hearings -- at the military prison

19 in Batajnica. The first hearing lasted about two hours. I was asked

20 questions and I responded to the questions. And also some kind of

21 indictment was read out to me, allegedly the reason why I was in

22 Batajnica.

23 The second day, when I went, also the hearing was going on. There

24 was a discussion, and this military officer who was sitting at the desk

25 explained to me that if it is proved that I'm guilty, that I would be

Page 11598

1 sentenced to death or to life imprisonment.

2 Q. Were you ever given counsel to represent you at these hearings?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you ever have the opportunity to consult with an attorney

5 prior to or during these hearings?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you have sufficient time to prepare yourself to take part in

8 these hearings?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did they ever bring any witnesses into this courtroom to confront

11 you or to testify in your presence?

12 A. No. There was nobody else except for the judge and the guards who

13 brought me to the courtroom.

14 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, could we go into closed session for

15 approximately 30 seconds?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we go into closed session -- in private

17 session.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 11599

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8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE LINDHOLM: If Your Honour -- for me for a minute. I would

18 ask about the so-called trials. Was there ever read some kind of

19 indictment what the witness was accused of?

20 MR. WEINER:

21 Q. Sir, you heard His Honour's question. Was an indictment ever read

22 to you, meaning indictment -- he means the allegations or the charges-

23 ever read to you?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. WEINER: And I think the Judge will ask next: What were the

Page 11600

1 charges?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

3 A. We were charged -- I was charged with organising a rebellion in

4 Posavina. I have to tell you that I don't know what rebellion it was in

5 Posavina. That was one thing. Second, that I raped several Serb women in

6 my neighbourhood, and were this true, I would have been tried even before

7 the war started. Also that I had slaughtered a Serbian child and that I

8 also made weapons that I was practically a manufacturer of weapons, that

9 we were making handmade weapons.

10 MR. WEINER:

11 Q. Sir, was the comment was that you had made weapons for the

12 Ustasha? Does that sound familiar?

13 A. At the trial -- yes, allow me just to add something to my -- to

14 ask you: Do you mean was this asked of me during the hearing?

15 Q. Yes. Was there some sort of statement from someone that you had

16 served in prison with, a Goran Djulbegovic, told the guards and the guards

17 apparently told the military judge that "you had made weapons for the

18 Ustasha"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Sir, do you have any technical training or any training as a

21 machinist?

22 A. No, I was never a machinist.

23 Q. Do you recall where they --

24 MR. WEINER: Counsel.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

Page 11601

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like a

2 clarification, please, in relation to this question from the Prosecution,

3 who is now on page -- from page 76, line 10. Since he's quoting

4 Goran Djulbegovic, is he quoting from the statement of this witness or is

5 he quoting what this Goran said in some other statement? Because we

6 didn't receive any document in that context from the Prosecution, so I

7 just wanted to clarify that.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner?

9 MR. WEINER: Yes. I'm quoting from paragraph 79, and then it says

10 in paragraph 82: "The judge repeated what I heard Goran say about me" and

11 used in his indictment against me." So right from the statement.

12 Q. Do you recall where you received the information about you

13 slaughtering children and killing Serbs and raping Serb women? Do you

14 recall where they got all this information?

15 A. Probably when I left for Batajnica, probably it was

16 Stevan Todorovic who came and who brought the document, so I think that

17 all these documents came from him.

18 Q. Thank you. Were you ever convicted or sentenced for any of these

19 matters?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, from Batajnica, which you spent, let's say, three

22 to four weeks, you were transferred. Where were you transferred?

23 A. To Sremska Mitrovica.

24 Q. And where is Sremska Mitrovica located?

25 A. Sremska Mitrovica is in the Republic of Serbia.

Page 11602

1 Q. And how far is it from Batajnica?

2 A. It's about 40 to 50 kilometres away perhaps.

3 Q. Did anyone ever tell you why you, as a citizen of Bosnia, was

4 being held in Serbia?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How were you treated at the prison in Sremska Mitrovica?

7 A. They beat us again.

8 Q. Did they have a room at Sremska Mitrovica named teretana

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Tell the Court what teretana was.

11 A. The teretana was a room perhaps six by four metres. It was like a

12 biggish room. There was a table there and a few benches, chairs,

13 whatever. And every prisoner who came there had to lie on the table, so

14 practically his limbs and head were exposed.

15 At least as far as I'm concerned, when I lay on that table, they

16 hit me on the soles of my feet the most. So as soon as I would lie down,

17 I would actually expose the soles of my feet to them, and they hit me on

18 the soles of my feet and all other parts of my body. As for the other

19 prisoners, I don't know, but I assume that they were treated the same way,

20 because they were also beaten.

21 Q. Now, in July, about a month after you got there now, were there

22 rumours about an exchange?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What happened to the beatings after the rumours of the exchange

25 started?

Page 11603

1 A. The beatings in fact stopped. They were no longer being

2 enforced. There were less and less beatings.

3 Q. Now, prior to the beatings stopping, at the time of the beatings,

4 were you given much food to eat, food and water?

5 A. Food, at any rate, I never got enough of. As for water, if I

6 asked, I would get it. But in most cases, I did not get it the same

7 moment when I asked for it.

8 Q. When the rumours of an exchange occurred, were you given more food

9 after that?

10 A. Yes. This was before the exchange, 10 or 15 days before it.

11 Q. When were you exchanged?

12 A. On the 14th of August, 1992.

13 Q. And could you tell us what happened on that date.

14 A. On that day, a certain number of soldiers entered our room. They

15 told us to get up. They took us out. We were lined up. In due time, all

16 the other prisoners from the other rooms came in as well. Let me just

17 mention that in Sremska Mitrovica, that's this last prison that I was in,

18 there were 13 rooms where prisoners were staying, and in my room, only at

19 that moment there were 46 people. And when they all came out, then 14

20 buses came. We boarded these 14 buses and we went to be exchanged at a

21 place called --

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name of the

23 place.

24 MR. WEINER:

25 Q. Where did the exchange occur?

Page 11604

1 A. Nemetin is the name of the place where the exchange took place, on

2 the border between Serbia and Croatia.

3 Q. How long of a ride was it to get to Nemetin?

4 A. In order to get to Nemetin, 8 or 10 hours of driving were

5 required.

6 Q. Was that all in Serbia?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, just prior to the exchange, was anyone beaten, be it on the

9 bus or just when you got off the bus?

10 A. Yes. There were mistreatments and beatings in the buses as well.

11 Q. You were exchanged on the 14th?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did you also meet with your family on that date?

14 A. No.

15 Q. When did you -- when were you reunited with your family?

16 A. I was reunited with them only on the next day.

17 Q. Now, what did you do after that? Did you -- what did you do for

18 work after you were exchanged?

19 A. After I was exchanged, I went to Zagreb for medical treatment. I

20 was undergoing medical treatment and examinations in Zagreb for three

21 months.

22 Q. Okay. Could you tell us what the prognosis or the diagnosis was

23 as to your medical situation, based on all of those examinations?

24 A. Yes. It was established that my sixth rib on the right-hand side

25 was broken. Also I was told that I have to undergo ultrasound

Page 11605

1 examinations of my kidneys every year. Also my eyesight was poorer, my

2 nails were different, and things like that. My left nostril was also

3 impaired.

4 Q. Were any ribs broken on your left side?

5 A. It was not fully broken, but it was fractured.

6 Q. What about your nose? Had your nose been broken?

7 A. Yes. The left side of my nose was broken completely, and also the

8 air passage has been disrupted, because the air passageway has become

9 narrower.

10 Q. What about your collarbone and shoulders, the top of your torso?

11 What, if any, damage did you suffer there?

12 A. Yes. Yes. That's true. My collarbones, the left and the right

13 one, they are not proper -- they are not right any more.

14 Q. Do you suffer any problems or pains now, ten years after this

15 incident?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please tell the Court what are some of the problems that you

18 suffer to this day.

19 A. I have frequent headaches, practically every day I have

20 headaches. I cannot lift my arms up to my shoulders. I can, but only if

21 I try several times. I have pain in my collarbones, I have pain in my

22 back. A tooth was extracted. I go for ultra sound examinations

23 regularly.

24 Q. Why do you have to have ultrasound examinations regularly?

25 A. Well, this recommendation was made to me so that I would examine

Page 11606

1 the kidney area because I was beaten in the kidney area often they were

2 synchronised. These blows in the kidney area, the blows directly affected

3 the kidneys.

4 Q. Had any of these problems ever existed prior to your arrest in

5 1992?

6 A. No.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: We have a problem with the transcript. We're just

8 trying to find out whether we continue in spite of the transcript not

9 showing what is going on.

10 [Trial Chamber confers].

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm informed that the transcript will go on

12 being recorded, but we can't -- it won't show on the screens, but we can

13 follow with the sound, the interpretation, and all that. So we can

14 proceed. If we proceed slowly. And if the witness can speak much more

15 loudly, slowly, so that everybody can hear what is going on.

16 MR. WEINER: Okay.

17 Q. Had any of these problems ever existed, any of these medical

18 problems, exist prior to your arrest on May 2nd, 1992?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question in connection with this part of

21 the testimony. You have been telling us about permanent physical pains

22 and problems, but what about your mental health? For instance, can you

23 sleep without medicines or do you have migraines and things like that?

24 MR. WEINER:

25 Q. The Judge asked a question about your mental or emotional health,

Page 11607

1 how you sleep, the headaches. Can you expand on that a little bit,

2 please? Let the Court know.

3 A. I've already mentioned that I have headaches, frequent headaches

4 at that. As for sleep, I'm not satisfied with that at all. I barely get

5 a few hours of sleep during the night. Physically, I'm not as fit as I

6 was before. I cannot squat. How can I put it? I have such pain in my

7 knees. I also have pain in my feet, in the soles of my feet, quite often.

8 As for the rest, I've already said that.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. WEINER: Could we go into closed session? I'll probably

11 mention a few matters about his property, so we don't give away --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

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24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 11608

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Page 11610

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8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are now in open session.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. My name is Dragan Krgovic. I'm an attorney at law. On behalf of

19 Mr. Miroslav Tadic's Defence, I shall be putting some questions to you.

20 Since you and I speak similar languages, I would like to ask you to wait,

21 please, before you answer my question, so that the interpreters could

22 interpret all of it and so that we would not overlap. My questions will

23 be phrased in a manner which would make it possible for you to give yes or

24 no answers. If I require more detailed explanations, I'm going to tell

25 you that, in respect of dates, names, et cetera. I hope that you have

Page 11611

1 understood this.

2 Sir, I would like to start with your answer to the Prosecutor's

3 question when you spoke about your hearing -- your interrogation at the

4 public security station in the police station in Samac. You talked to

5 investigator Milos Savic then; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Inspector Savic -- actually, you already described that he was

8 putting questions to you and that you gave answers to those questions. In

9 addition to Inspector Savic, was there anybody else in the office who was

10 recording, writing down everything that you said?

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'm not objecting. I just want to

13 remind counsel to turn the microphone off between question and answer,

14 because the information -- the voice can come out over the system.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes.

16 Yes, Mr. Krgovic. I'm sure you will remember to do that.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation].

18 Q. Did you hear my question? Was anybody else present?

19 A. No, no one was present. Milos himself recorded the minutes.

20 Q. Did he read out what he said?

21 A. I don't know whether he read it, but I know that I didn't read it,

22 and I know that I signed it.

23 Q. You said to the Trial Chamber in detail what you looked like when

24 you were giving a statement to Inspector Savic. Also, you said that after

25 that you were visited by the International Red Cross. Isn't that right?

Page 11612

1 A. Yes. After that, I was visited by the International Red Cross.

2 Q. Can you tell us how many days after the interrogation of

3 Inspector Savic this took place?

4 A. Approximately two days later. I cannot be very accurate, but it

5 was about two days later.

6 Q. In the meantime, did you change your clothes? Did you wash your

7 face? Did you perhaps improve your appearance in any considerable way or

8 not?

9 A. I did not change my clothes. I didn't wash my face. I didn't do

10 any washing.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So if I could just ask the witness a question:

12 On that note, Witness, you said before the lunch recess that you weren't

13 able to tell the truth of what happened to you to the representatives of

14 the International Committee of the Red Cross because the guards were

15 outside and were listening. However, based on your answer now to Defence

16 counsel Mr. Krgovic, the International Committee of the Red Cross would

17 have been able to see that you had been beaten up. Is that a correct

18 assumption? You looked bad. They were interviewing you. And even though

19 you couldn't tell what happened, they could see you, bruised or whatever.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They saw all of that, and all

21 of it was clear to them.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Sir, during the course of your testimony, you said that the

25 International Red Cross registered you. Could you tell me how many people

Page 11613

1 there were together with you when the International Red Cross registered

2 you, approximately?

3 A. Well, approximately about 40 persons.

4 Q. And all of them were registered?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell me where this happened, in which room at the TO

7 building?

8 A. I could show it to you if I were to see a picture of the yard of

9 the Territorial Defence headquarters.

10 Q. If you could give us a description. This was the TO premises in

11 the yard?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. To be more precise, in the warehouse of the TO?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you give me the names of some people who were with you when

16 your name was registered, if you remember?

17 A. Anto Bjelobrk, Vinko Tufekovic, Djuro Vuckovic, Ivo Tufekovic, and

18 there were others from Samac. These were mostly Muslims, so I don't know

19 the names of these people.

20 Q. In the room where this interview went on, there were no guards

21 present or there were no representatives of the local authorities, were

22 there?

23 A. No. There was no representative of the local authorities.

24 Q. And the police officers who were guarding you, they were outside?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11614

1 Q. Could you describe the people from the International Red Cross?

2 Were they foreigners? Did they have an interpreter? Were they men or

3 women? Could you give us a little more detail.

4 A. Yes. A man and a woman with an interpreter.

5 Q. So they were foreigners?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sir, you were at the penal and rehabilitation facility in

8 Mitrovica. In your statement, you said that the International Red Cross

9 registered you there as well?

10 A. Yes. They registered me also when I was in Sremska Mitrovica.

11 Q. Did you tell the representatives of the Red Cross in Mitrovica

12 that you had already been registered in Bosanski Samac?

13 A. Yes, I did. May I add something, please, to my answer? Yes, I

14 told them, and then they wanted not to register me there, because they

15 said, literally: A person who is registered once with the International

16 Red Cross does not need to be registered again. But then I asked them

17 this question: So if I was registered in Bosanski Samac, how come that I

18 was transferred to Sremska Mitrovica? So on my insisting, they registered

19 me again.

20 Q. Let's go back previously to Bosanski Samac. Did the

21 representatives of the International Red Cross say where they were from,

22 from Bijeljina, Banja Luka, or Tuzla? Did they say where their

23 headquarters were?

24 A. No, they didn't tell me. I don't know where they were from.

25 Q. Sir, I wanted to ask you something about your hearing before the

Page 11615

1 investigative judge in Batajnica. I have a couple of questions about

2 that. During the hearing before the judge, as far as I understood, only

3 the investigative judge was present, the guard, yourself, and I assume

4 somebody who was typing your statement. Is that true?

5 A. As far as Batajnica is concerned, I would like to repeat: A

6 military officer in military uniform was sitting opposite from me. I

7 think he was a lieutenant colonel. I know military ranks. I know the

8 insignia for that rank. He had a gold band with one star on his

9 epaulette. And I remember very well. He was questioning me and I was

10 sitting opposite him and there were two guards sitting on either side of

11 me. There was nobody else in the courtroom. There was no record made. I

12 was only being questioned by the judge.

13 Q. And the judge that questioned you, he told you what the charges

14 were? I think you said that.

15 A. Yes, he did. I apologise. I would like to correct what I said

16 earlier. It wasn't a lieutenant colonel; it was a major. His rank was

17 the rank of major.

18 Q. And he told you that if you confessed, that would be taken as a

19 mitigating circumstance?

20 A. Yes, that's what he said.

21 Q. Well, this is what I'm asking you, because in your statement to

22 the Prosecution -- this is the statement of the 29th of November and the

23 2nd of December, 1994, and this is on page -- I don't have a page number

24 here, so I will just read it, if you can remember it:

25 "The judge said that my sentence will be lighter if I confessed to

Page 11616

1 the crimes that I was being charged of."

2 Do you remember stating this to the members of the Prosecution of

3 The Hague Tribunal?

4 A. I did not give such a statement. I think perhaps that this was --

5 what I said wasn't well stated. First of all, I don't have anything to

6 confess in order to get a lighter sentence, because there's nothing to

7 those charges. And in relation to the final outcome, he just said to me:

8 If this is established, what you are charged with, you could be sentenced

9 to death or this could be commuted to a life -- a sentence of life

10 imprisonment.

11 Q. In your answer to the question by the judge, you said that you

12 didn't think -- you didn't feel yourself guilty.

13 A. Well, there was nothing that I would feel guilty about.

14 Q. Well, we would like you to explain exactly what happened during

15 this hearing. We're not really interested in whether you plead guilty or

16 not. I'm just interested in the procedure of the hearing itself, the

17 procedure and the answers that you gave to the judge. That's my aim. So

18 you said in the statement that he asked you whether you had committed that

19 and that a sentence would be lighter if you confessed. So now when I

20 asked you about whether you pled guilty or not, you stated that you were

21 not guilty; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did this man introduce himself to you as a judge?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did that man ask you whether you were beaten or mistreated in

Page 11617

1 prison?

2 A. No, he didn't ask me that.

3 Q. I will now again read the statement you gave to the Prosecutor in

4 1994, where it states:

5 "The judge asked me whether I was beaten in the camp, and I said

6 that they did not."

7 Do you remember stating this or not to the representatives of the

8 Prosecution -- of the Office of the Prosecutor in 1994?

9 A. It's possible that I told them that, but I think that the

10 gentleman who questioned me, that it was obvious to him. It was evident.

11 Q. There was no jury there with the judge?

12 A. No, there was no one there.

13 Q. And no written charges were read to you, but you were just told

14 orally what you were being charged with?

15 A. Yes, I was just told what the charges were.

16 Q. You were detained, as you said, in the military investigative

17 prison in Batajnica; is that right?

18 A. Yes. That's what we called it. Nobody told us that it was the

19 military investigative prison, but these were premises of a closed type.

20 They had bars.

21 Q. Very well. You said that this man didn't introduce himself to you

22 but that you concluded that this was a judge. When you were taken to see

23 him, did anybody tell you that you were being taken to a judge, and so

24 based on that, did you conclude that he was a judge?

25 A. I was told that I was going for an interrogation, but I didn't go

Page 11618

1 alone. Many others went, and so we called that man a judge. We called

2 him "Judge," because he told us what it said in the indictments, and then

3 he also gave his comment to the charges in the indictment.

4 Q. So you didn't receive a written indictment or any kind of decision

5 that you were sentenced or convicted?

6 A. No, I didn't receive anything.

7 Q. Did you receive any document that was signed by a court?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Sir, you were exchanged on the 4th of October [as interpreted],

10 1992; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us: Who took you to the exchange? Who were the

13 drivers? Who was doing the security? Who was accompanying the convoy?

14 A. We were taken by the same men who were guarding us there in

15 Sremska Mitrovica. It was the same people who performed the guard duties

16 over there.

17 Q. You were exchanged at Nemetin. You said that the drive was pretty

18 long. Could you please tell us where Nemetin is? It's closest to which

19 larger town or city?

20 A. It's close to Osijek.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, for the record, it says you were

23 exchanged on the 4th of October. I thought it was 14th of August. Could

24 they just clarify that for the record?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the witness can clarify that.

Page 11619

1 MR. WEINER: Yes. Thank you.

2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Sir, there's a mistake in the transcript. The date that I

4 mentioned was the 14th of August, 1992; is that right?

5 A. Yes, that's the correct date of the exchange.

6 Q. Could you please tell me how far is Osijek from Sremska Mitrovica,

7 if you know?

8 A. Well, I don't know, but I think it's about 70 to 80 kilometres

9 away.

10 Q. Who was exchanged? Who was being exchanged?

11 A. The prisoners who were in Sremska Mitrovica were exchanged for

12 prisoners who happened to be detained by the Croatian army.

13 Q. So between the -- the exchange was between Yugoslavia and Croatia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How many people were exchanged, approximately?

16 A. I can't be precise about the people from Sremska Mitrovica, but it

17 could be about 400 to 450 people.

18 Q. Was anybody exchanged from Bosanski Samac together with you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us who?

21 A. Specifically from the town of Samac or from the environs of

22 Samac? Generally from Samac?

23 Q. Generally from the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

24 A. Vinko Tufekovic, Ivo Tufekovic, Djuro Vuckovic, Vinko Antunovic,

25 Ante Simovic, Sead Mujkanovic. All these people were exchanged. And

Page 11620

1 there were others, but I can't remember.

2 Q. Was Sulejman Tihic exchanged together with you?

3 A. Yes. Dr. Kedacic, Miroslav also.

4 Q. Sir, could you please tell me whether the representatives of the

5 international community were present during the exchange?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the International Red Cross?

8 A. I didn't notice.

9 Q. During the exchange, were you asked if you wanted to cross over to

10 the other side?

11 A. Yes, they did ask.

12 Q. I assume that you answered yes.

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. And they asked all of those people who were there in the exchange

15 with you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And from the other side, people were also coming, from Croatia

18 into Yugoslavia; isn't that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know how many people came from the other side?

21 A. It was an exchange, everybody for everybody. So people who came

22 from the Croatian side into Yugoslavia, there were fewer of them, much

23 fewer.

24 Q. That was the exchange that was arranged by Milan Panic, the then

25 president of Yugoslavia?

Page 11621

1 A. Yes, Milan Panic and Franjo Gregurevic [as interpreted], from the

2 Croatian side.

3 Q. When you crossed into Croatia --

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a correction for the

5 transcript. It's Franjo Gregoric.

6 A. Yes. Yes. I think I said Franjo Gregurevic.

7 Q. When you crossed into Croatia, did you give any statements after

8 that to the relevant authorities?

9 A. I did not, no.

10 Q. You mentioned in your testimony today that Croatia -- the Croatian

11 side sent you to the region of Posavina. Was this a call-up?

12 A. Yes, by the Croatian side, because many people were called up at

13 that time. Everybody who was from Bosnia and Herzegovina who happened to

14 be on the territory of Croatia, they were all mobilised and sent to the

15 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. So practically they were sent back

16 to the republic where they were born.

17 Q. So you did not volunteer to join the HVO but were mobilised?

18 A. I was in Posavina, and then I returned, and after that I was

19 caught in Osijek, at the station.

20 Q. Could you please tell me: How long were you in the HVO?

21 A. I was in the HVO for about 20 months or perhaps 21 months.

22 Q. Since you were a driver, could you please tell me: Did you drive

23 people to exchanges perhaps?

24 A. No. I worked at the hospital in Domaljevac.

25 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Just a question of clarification. Page 97,

Page 11622

1 line 1. Answer: "I was in Posavina and then I returned, and after that I

2 was caught in Osijek, at the station." It doesn't make sense to me, those

3 two lines. What is the witness meaning by that answer?

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I will clarify according to my

5 understanding, Your Honour, that he was mobilised and taken by force to

6 Orasje. That's what I understood.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE LINDHOLM: But the follow-up question: Who caught him in

9 Osijek, and for what reason?

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You heard His Honour's question. Who caught you in Osijek, and

12 why? I assume that you wish to stay in Osijek, that you did not wish to

13 go to war.

14 A. I was at the bus station in Osijek, and two policemen approached,

15 doing their regular controls, and that's how things were like at that

16 time. When they saw that I was born in Bosnia and Herzegovina, they took

17 me down to the station and they told me, "You have to go to Bosnia." You

18 couldn't refuse that. You had to go. And that was it. And this happened

19 to many people, not just to me.

20 Q. In order to clarify, Osijek is in Croatia; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you remember which unit were you in the HVO, 101st, 102nd,

23 104th?

24 A. I was in the 104th.

25 Q. Sir, could you please tell me whether during the time you were in

Page 11623

1 Orasje, did you give any statements in relation to your prison stays in

2 Batajnica, Bosanski Samac, and Sremska Mitrovica, in April to August 1992?

3 A. No, not to anybody else except to the International Red Cross.

4 Q. When did you give this statement?

5 A. No, not the International Red Cross. Excuse me. But to the

6 International Criminal Tribunal.

7 Q. I have no more questions, Your Honours. I have finished with this

8 witness.

9 A. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll continue cross-examination tomorrow. The

11 witness -- can the witness be led out of the courtroom? You'll continue

12 cross-examination at 9.00 tomorrow.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: There's a ruling on the motion by the Prosecution on

15 private session. The Trial Chamber has noted the submissions of the

16 parties on the motion for private session for the testimony of Witness Q,

17 and the Trial Chamber has decided that in the interests of justice, that

18 the witness testifies in private session.

19 May I know whether the other two Defence counsels wish to

20 cross-examine this witness tomorrow?

21 [Defence counsel confer]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic?

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will need maybe

24 five minutes at the most for the cross-examination.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?

Page 11624

1 MR. PANTELIC: I think -- I would say one hour. I will do my best

2 to be even less than one hour, but ...

3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Let's say roughly one hour.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

6 Are there any matters to be raised by the parties?

7 MR. WEINER: Just a very brief one, not really for today, but is

8 the Court looking for oral argument on those motions that we filed

9 responses to last week? The one in relation to -- or the key one is the

10 one in relation to the Defence motion, the joint Defence motion to strike

11 the testimony of Hasan Subasic.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: No. All the remaining motion of the parties are

13 sufficient and the Trial Chamber will give its ruling when they are

14 ready. We'll adjourn and continue tomorrow at 0900 hours.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.56 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on 30th, the July day of

17 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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