Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12471

1 Wednesday, 20 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

7 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo

8 Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are ready to proceed with

10 cross-examination.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Before we proceed with

12 cross-examination, I would like to inform this Trial Chamber that the

13 Defence is in possession of one binder of documents. Well, the basic

14 reason why we have this break, that was the process of reviewing of the

15 documents by the Prosecution, as we all remember in last Friday, I

16 believe. Yes.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MR. PANTELIC: So briefly, just for the record, at the end of

19 the -- yesterday's working hours, 4.30, I believe, something like that, we

20 got one binder of these documents pursuant to Rule 68 from the

21 Prosecution.

22 MR. WEINER: That's incorrect.

23 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct --

24 MR. WEINER: That's incorrect.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Yeah, you can --

Page 12472

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, just wait. Let him finish, and then

2 you'll be able to respond.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe Your Honour, in order to clarify that, maybe

4 my learned friend would like to give a precise thing. Maybe we could

5 hear.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: No. You inform the Court what --

7 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. Your Honour, I don't know why this reaction

8 was.

9 Anyhow, so the Defence for Mr. Blagoje Simic was not able at all

10 to inform our client what the contents of these documents are due to the

11 well-known limitations with regard to the visit at the UNDU. So I kindly

12 ask on that basis to have a certain period of time to consult with my

13 client because I do believe that certain portion of these documents might

14 have relevance in the course of the cross-examination of my client. Of

15 course, a certain portion of these documents got certain -- impact also on

16 the examination-in-chief. And in general to some extent of the Defence

17 strategy. But we are not in a situation to discuss that any more because

18 this part of the examination-in-chief actually was concluded, so we cannot

19 go into past.

20 Another thing: A certain number of documents are not translated,

21 so that's -- that's another problem which I'm facing now. I have --

22 virtually I have to, I would say, to explain to my client what is in

23 certain documents. He practically is not able by himself to go through

24 these papers and then to be familiar, and then the Defence could have a

25 certain level of -- a certain level of quality, in terms of the relation

Page 12473

1 between attorney and his client. Otherwise, I have to go through all

2 these documents and to explain to him and to translate to him in person.

3 So what I would like to kindly suggest to this Trial Chamber:

4 Let's see if approximately one hour would be enough for us to consult with

5 regard to these documents. In the meantime, if our learned friend could

6 provide us with the -- we shall inform them about the relevant documents

7 we would like -- that we would like to have in -- we have to have in

8 English. And then in the meantime, if they can check that with the --

9 with their records and interpreters unit, if we would be in possession of

10 this translation, then that would certainly speed up things. So basically

11 there is no, I would say, big or extreme problems with that issue, unless

12 the Trial Chamber wishes to give some other guidelines with regard to

13 these procedures. I believe that we could proceed today with the

14 cross-examination by all means. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: Good morning, Your Honours.

17 I have no objection to him taking an hour or so to meet with his

18 client and go over those documents. I have no objection to that.

19 However, what I'd like to do is address this whole issue and what has

20 happened in the last week and just explain to the Court the whole

21 situation that's occurred.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Very briefly, please.

23 MR. WEINER: Last week we came across seven files on Dr. Blagoje

24 Simic, and they were -- and we came across them just a day or so prior to

25 cross-examination. We were probably a little bit tired. We were just

Page 12474

1 starting the Defence case and we were gearing up for it. We panicked and

2 we panicked for no reason. We were under the impression that there was a

3 major problem that existed. We were alarmed, we were concerned, and we

4 notified the Chamber immediately. In our panic, we were wrong. It was a

5 false alarm. There is no disclosure problem. There is no problem with

6 the discovery process. There are no Rule 68 violations. The discovery

7 process has been ongoing for years. We are confident that there is no

8 Rule 68 problem. Rather, our Rule 68 obligation has been met and it is

9 continuing to be met. I sincerely apologise for this alleged crisis and

10 wasting the Court's time.

11 However, what it turned out to be was no wasting of time. We were

12 able to review, do a full review -- was conducted by our senior Prosecutor

13 on the case, Gramsci Di Fazio, and worked over the weekends and during the

14 days and during the evenings and we found the following: Our initial

15 impression that no major searches were done was wrong. In 1998 an

16 all-system search was performed on defendants, witnesses, words, and

17 places. In 1999, an all-system search was performed on defendants and

18 witnesses. In the year 2000, an all-systems search was performed on

19 defendants and witnesses. In the year 2001, prior to trial, an

20 all-systems search was performed on defendants and witnesses.

21 This week we are lucky to have Nancy Paterson, who was the

22 original Prosecutor on this case, who took this case from the

23 investigation through the indictment, and who left the office or retired

24 from this office just prior to the trial. She's here on corporate

25 business, non-related to the ICTY, and she visited our office. We were

Page 12475

1 able to sit down and discuss the matter with her. She told us about her

2 1998 search. She explained that she's an American prosecutor, that Rule

3 68 emanates from the United States, that she is well aware of the Rule 68

4 Rules, having been a prosecutor for many years, and she is obsessive about

5 discovery. She ordered these annual searches to be performed. She noted

6 that the all-systems search was performed in 1998, in 1999 an all-systems

7 search of witnesses and defendants was performed again. Also in 1999 she

8 split up the witnesses among three attorneys and each one of them did

9 internal-source searches to see if they could come up with anything. She

10 also ran these all-systems searches of witnesses and defendants in the

11 year 2000. And in the year 2001, it appears that she ran two all-systems

12 searches, one in the January/February period, and the second just before

13 she left, so in -- and the results came out in June and July, just prior

14 to trial.

15 The first one -- it's not clear. It's her memory. The second

16 one, we're certain of, the June/July one, because we have the documents

17 and we have the dates on the -- in the relation to the all-systems search.

18 In February of 2001 she appeared at some motions and she discussed

19 disclosure and she was explaining how she had complied with disclosure.

20 After Nancy Paterson leaves, Aisling Reidy takes over that chore.

21 She continues the witness searches on her own. She does the internal

22 witness searches and she occasionally finds documents. And this Court

23 recalls how at different periods we would find documents and hand them

24 over. In fact, there was an exculpatory document relating to Esad

25 Dagovic. We handed it over as soon as we found it, and this Court was --

Page 12476

1 ordered him back for cross-examination, which he did in fact come back and

2 he was confronted with that document.

3 In 2001, just around the start of trial, the ICTY obtained a

4 collection of military documents, a quarter of a million documents on

5 disks. As this Court recalls, Aisling Reidy got together with the

6 computer section and they ran a search of those. We also made those disks

7 or the computer system or whatever available to Defence to search. We

8 have now just completed additional searches. With regard to Blagoje

9 Simic, we've completed a search of those seven volumes. We have found no

10 exculpatory evidence, no Rule 68 evidence.

11 I just received a message from Gramsci Di Fazio that he has

12 completed his review of the Tadic and Zaric documents, and there are six

13 documents he's interested in and would like to discuss among the three

14 counsel here to see if they are -- if they're Rule 68 or if they're

15 material. Under reciprocal discovery they have to be turned over. But

16 until I actually see the documents and the three of us sit down, I can't

17 comment on those. But we're talking about just six documents.

18 An all-systems search has never been required by this Court, by

19 any Court here, by Rule 68, or by an order. It's not necessary and in

20 many situations it's a waste of time. What we do it as is a last-minute

21 insurance policy to make sure everything is right. We have been doing

22 that. We are continuing to do that. We have just done it on all the

23 defendants. We've done it on the witnesses this year. We -- so we have

24 resolved the matter. Going in and looking at that history, we know that

25 no problem exists. There are no minor problems that exist. A commendable

Page 12477

1 job has been done and we apologise to the Court for the false alarm. But

2 as I said, it has enabled us to go out and see what in fact we have done.

3 Now, with regard to Blagoje Simic, he has not invoked reciprocal

4 discovery. He is not entitled to reciprocal discovery. We found no Rule

5 68 or exculpatory materials relating to Dr. Blagoje Simic. We have found

6 several documents, most of them are orders that he signed, whether he was

7 on the War Presidency, the Crisis Staff, or the Serbian Assembly of

8 Bosanski Samac. In the rush to get these over to them, I can say that we

9 haven't already provided these documents to him, because we haven't been

10 able to check. We had to work around the clock to get this stuff over to

11 him. So what we've done is given him a binder. Some statements, but

12 mostly documents that he has signed. If his name was on it, signing it,

13 we gave over to him. He is not entitled to that. They are not Rule 68.

14 Most of the information is inculpatory. However, as a courtesy, as we

15 have done from the beginning of this trial and prior to the trial

16 starting, anything that's material, we hand over to him even though he has

17 not invoked reciprocal discovery. So the package we gave him yesterday,

18 he is not entitled to and we are providing that as a courtesy.

19 I have no objection and the Prosecution has no objection to him

20 sitting down with his client and going over those. We have no problem at

21 with that at all. If we would like an hour or so, it's not a problem to

22 us. However, the key thing I want to tell you today is there was no 68

23 material relating to Blagoje Simic. I will check with co-counsel on those

24 six other documents. And finally, we have checked. We have done a

25 commendable job in discovery and disclosure. There is no Rule 68 problem

Page 12478

1 relating to the Prosecution of this case. Thank you.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. WEINER: Oh, I'm sorry. Your Honour. With regard to the

4 Tadic material, we did not receive those by the close of business

5 yesterday. We received those between 6.00 and 7.00 last night, so that's

6 why we didn't have the chance to report to you first thing this morning on

7 those. Thank you.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is of the view that since Rule 68

10 is an ongoing obligation and that not only now, or maybe even in the

11 future before the trial comes to an end, documents may still come to the

12 attention of the Prosecution. The Trial Chamber is of the view that we

13 shall proceed with the case. Cross-examination will continue. However,

14 the accused will be given an opportunity during the re-examination stage,

15 should anything come up, to go beyond the cross-examination in

16 re-examination to cover what else may come up in case of the documents

17 that have just been handed over. So the cross-examination will proceed.

18 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence of Miroslav

21 Tadic has certain questions for Mr. Simic. I don't think we will take

22 more than 15 minutes. As far as I know, the Zaric Defence also has a few

23 questions as well. These are questions that are simply related to my

24 client. So before the cross-examination, I would like put these questions

25 that have to do with my client and his role and place in the Crisis Staff.

Page 12479

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Lukic, you can go ahead.

3 THE WITNESS: BLAGOJE SIMIC [Resumed]

4 [Witness answers through interpretation]

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Simic.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. There is no need for know introduce myself to you. My first

9 question will be: For how long have you known Mr. Miroslav Tadic?

10 A. Since the war period.

11 Q. When you say "the war period," I assume that you are talking about

12 the 17th of April, 1992. Is that what you mean by "the war period" or do

13 you mean something else?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. From the examination conducted by my colleague, I got the

16 impression that you took active part in political life from 1990. That's

17 what you said, that you then acceded to the Serb Democratic Party. Now,

18 my question is the following: Do you know that Miroslav Tadic in that

19 period and subsequently -- do you know whether he was a member of any

20 political party in the territory of Bosanski Samac and beyond?

21 A. I'm not aware of his being a member of any political party.

22 Q. Did you see him at any party meeting or political meeting before

23 the conflict broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. No.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to witness to be shown

Page 12480

1 document D59/3, please.

2 Q. While the usher is bringing the document, I'm going to remind you

3 that during the examination-in-chief you said to my colleague,

4 Mr. Pantelic, that the Crisis Staff was established around the 19th of

5 April and that my client became a member of the Crisis Staff somewhat

6 later. You said specifically around the 20th of April. I don't know if

7 you had the opportunity of reading the interview of my client which is an

8 exhibit introduced by the prosecutor. This is the interview that he gave

9 to the Prosecution. He claims that he became a member of the Crisis Staff

10 when he was appointed the commander of the civilian protection staff. In

11 this document -- first of all, are you aware of this document? Are you

12 familiar with it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The date on this document is the 23rd of April, 1992. Is that the

15 day when Miroslav Tadic, since he was appointed president of the Crisis

16 Staff of civilian protection staff, is that the day when he was appointed

17 a member of the Crisis Staff of the Municipality of Samac?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you please look at item 3 of this decision and could you

20 please comment on it.

21 A. The civilian protection is within the realm of the Defence

22 Ministry, and the final decision had to be passed by the Defence Ministry.

23 Q. Could you please look at the preamble to this decision, the

24 introductory part, I mean. In your opinion, is that the reason why

25 Miroslav Tadic became a member of the Crisis Staff?

Page 12481

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I don't need this document any

3 more.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Also in response to my colleague's question, you

5 said that the composition of the Crisis Staff and of the War Presidency

6 was not identical. You said that the members of the Crisis Staff were

7 those persons whose names were on the payroll for May. As for the

8 membership of the War Presidency, you linked that to the decree of

9 Republika Srpska, which prescribed who would be a member of the War

10 Presidency. My question is very specific: Was Miroslav Tadic a member of

11 the War Presidency?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did Miroslav Tadic ever take part in decision-making in the War

14 Presidency?

15 A. I'm not aware of that.

16 Q. Do you know that Miroslav Tadic from time to time as a member of

17 the exchange commission and as a member and president of the civilian

18 protection staff, that he came to the Presidency from time to time and

19 submitted certain reports?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Like Velimir Martic [As interpreted], who was president of the

22 exchange commission, I assume.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I would just like to correct the name here. It is Maslic,

25 M-a-s-l-i-c, not Martic, the way it says here.

Page 12482

1 Now, did Miroslav Tadic have any position in the system of

2 government when the municipal assembly started functioning again in the

3 month of January 1993, apart from being a member of the exchange

4 commission and being on the civilian protection staff?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know that Miroslav Tadic before the war, during the war,

7 and after the war -- do you know whether he was ever, in those periods, an

8 assemblyman in any assembly, a member of any assembly?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Can I have clarification on the answer no. Is it

11 no, you don't know? Is it no, he was not a member of any of the

12 assemblies?

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Could you please answer the question.

15 A. No, he was not a member.

16 Q. I'm interested in one more topic that you referred to my

17 colleague, and that is your knowledge in respect of how Stevan Todorovic,

18 as you said, mistreated members of the Crisis Staff including Miroslav

19 Tadic. Do you remember that Miroslav Tadic proposed to you that you

20 distance yourselves and that you make every effort for Stevan Todorovic to

21 be replaced? If you know about that, could you please describe this. And

22 if you don't know about it, I'm not going to ask you any further questions

23 with regard to that.

24 A. I think that a few times Miroslav Tadic insisted that a way be

25 found for Todorovic to be replaced. But I do not remember the exact date

Page 12483

1 or the exact occasion.

2 Q. My final question has to do with the final question of my

3 colleague Mr. Pantelic, who presented to you allegations from the

4 indictment. My question is whether ever during the war or after the war

5 you talked to Mr. Tadic or made proposals to him or did you receive his

6 proposals to move the non-Serb population outside of the municipality of

7 Samac, out of their homes against their will.

8 A. No.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just correct the transcript.

10 Q. My question was for the period before the war as well. So does

11 this answer of yours pertain to the pre-war period as well, since you said

12 that you did not know him before the war and could not talk to him -- I

13 assume --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please stop speaking at the same

15 time as the witness. The interpreter cannot follow it.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. ...the moving of the non-Serb population from their homes in the

18 municipality of Samac.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Thank you. I have finished.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good

23 morning, Mr. Simic.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

Page 12484

1 Q. [Interpretation] I'm going to put a few questions to you in

2 relation to your general relationship with Mr. Zaric, and the first

3 question is the following: Is it correct that you and Mr. Simo Zaric

4 lived in the same apartment building in a street which was then called the

5 street of Edvard Kardelj. In Bosanski Samac the building was known as

6 number 62.

7 A. From the end of 1991, yes.

8 Q. So in 1991, late 1991, you moved into the building known as the

9 building number 62 in Bosanski Samac; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You did not live in the same section or entrance of that apartment

12 building, did you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. My colleague says that the transcript is not quite clear, so let

15 me repeat. You did not live in the same entrance of that apartment

16 building, did you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So you did not.

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. Did you have any friendly relationship with Mr. Zaric ever?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Was there any kind of business relationship between you and

23 Mr. Zaric?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you ever present in Mr. Simo Zaric's apartment?

Page 12485

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did Mr. Simo Zaric ever go to your apartment?

3 A. No.

4 Q. According to your knowledge, was Mr. Zaric ever a member of the

5 Serb Democratic Party of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Are you aware of the fact that up until the 17th of April, 1992

8 Simo Zaric was never a member or assemblyman or deputy in the Municipal

9 Assembly of Bosanski Samac?

10 A. Could you repeat the question.

11 Q. Do you know that Simo Zaric was not an assemblyman in the

12 Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Samac in the time period from 1990 up until

13 the 17th of April, 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you confirm the fact that Mr. Zaric was not an assemblyman in

16 the Assembly of the Serb Municipality of Bosanski Samac either?

17 A. No, he was not an assemblyman.

18 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Mr. Simo Zaric was not present at

19 the meeting held on the 15th of April, 1992 which was held in the

20 Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Samac and where representatives of

21 Gradacac, Orasje municipalities were present, and Odzak municipality as

22 well?

23 A. He was not present there.

24 Q. Can you confirm the fact that you and Mr. Zaric did not have any

25 kind of agreements, talks, or any other contacts in the time period up

Page 12486

1 until the 17th of April, 1992 and afterwards regarding the events which

2 took place in the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

3 A. I did not understand your question. Could you please be more

4 precise.

5 Q. Did you and Mr. Simo Zaric ever talk, plan, organise, make

6 arrangements for any actions to be taken in the municipality of Bosanski

7 Samac?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm that Mr. Simo Zaric was not a member

10 of the Crisis Staff of Bosanski Samac Municipality?

11 A. He was not a member.

12 Q. Did the Crisis Staff of Samac Municipality ever issue any kind of

13 orders to Simo Zaric personally?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Is it true that Simo Zaric never submitted any reports on his

16 actions to the Crisis Staff of Bosanski Samac Municipality?

17 A. He never submitted any kind of reports to the Crisis Staff.

18 Q. Simo Zaric did not submit any reports on his work to the War

19 Presidency either after it was established, did he?

20 A. I'm not aware of that.

21 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the Ministry of Defence of the

22 municipality of Bosanski Samac deployed Mr. Simo Zaric as a military

23 conscript to occupy the post in the military council and to be in charge

24 of security issues in that body? I mean in Odzak.

25 A. I know that the Ministry of Defence sent him to Odzak to implement

Page 12487

1 some military affairs there, that he was sent to Odzak. But what exactly

2 he did there, I'm not aware of that.

3 Q. Do you know that Mr. Simo Zaric as a conscript was under the

4 direct command of security organs of the military administration that had

5 been introduced in Odzak municipality?

6 A. In the territory of the military administration, everybody is

7 under the command of that administration.

8 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm the fact that neither the Crisis Staff

9 or the War Presidency, nor you personally, ever asked Mr. Simo Zaric to

10 submit any kind of reports on the way he executed his military tasks?

11 A. Neither the Crisis Staff nor I personally ever asked Mr. Simo

12 Zaric to submit any kind of reports.

13 Q. Just one more question: You here spoke on how Mr. Stevan

14 Todorovic terrorised some people. You also spoke about the volunteers

15 from Serbia and certain members of the Crisis Staff. Do you know that

16 these same people - meaning Stevan Todorovic and the individuals that had

17 come from Serbia - persecuted Simo Zaric fiercely, sent death threats to

18 him, and basically made his life unpleasant in a number of ways? Do you

19 have any knowledge of this? And if so, please tell us what you know.

20 A. I know that Stevan Todorovic had an especially hostile attitude

21 with respect to Simo Zaric.

22 Q. Thank you, Your Honours. I will conclude my examination here.

23 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ...what is that in

24 the transcript. Page 17, line 10. So I kindly ask my colleague to

25 clarify this question. It was not -- his original question was not on a

Page 12488

1 proper basis translated, and the transcript does not reflect his question.

2 It is very dubious form.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean the translation is not -- or the question

4 that counsel put to the accused is not correct?

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, that is correct, Your Honour. Let me just

6 confer with my colleague to explain --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Let him repeat the question. That's all. The

8 counsel knows what he's asking about.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, maybe I can help. It is only one

10 part of the translation of the question. The question was relatively

11 clear -- completely clear, but the translation said here on page 17 --

12 just one second. It says: "You also spoke about the volunteers from

13 Serbia and certain members of the Crisis Staff." Both these words were

14 mentioned in Mr. Pisarevic's question, but there was -- he was referring

15 to the statement of Mr. Blagoje Simic here about how volunteers tortured

16 some members of the Crisis Staff, and that was the issue here.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe to clear the point, can Mr. Pisarevic just

18 repeat the question and then we'll get the answer from the accused.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Simic, in your testimony you spoke about certain acts of

21 terrorising of certain members of the Crisis Staff by the chief of the

22 Public Security Station, Mr. Stevan Todorovic, and some volunteers from

23 Serbia. My question was: Do you know that the chief of the Public

24 Security Station, Stevan Todorovic, and some members of the volunteer

25 units from Serbia fiercely terrorised, persecuted, sent threats to

Page 12489

1 Mr. Simo Zaric as well? Do you know anything about that? And if so,

2 please tell the Chamber about it.

3 A. I know that Stevan Todorovic had a very clear hostile attitude

4 with respect to Simo Zaric due to his Communist pedigree.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have completed my

7 examination.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the Prosecution.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Just one question before we start with the

10 cross-examination, Your Honour. Could we have an estimated time for the

11 cross-examination, because in that case we could plan our time for

12 re-examination and then we can have certain plans with the witnesses --

13 Defence witnesses who are here at The Hague. So in terms of this

14 coordination with the Victim's Unit, it will be useful for us to know.

15 Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

17 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, at this time -- I haven't started yet,

18 but I'll assume I'm going to finish before the day is over. I will

19 definitely finish before the day is over.

20 In addition to that, when we delivered the courtesy package to

21 Mr. -- to the assistant, Srdjan -- I'm not sure of his last name, to the

22 assistant of Mr. Pantelic, we were told that we would receive our

23 discovery on upcoming witnesses when we delivered our package yesterday.

24 When I delivered the package yesterday, I was told that Igor Pantelic

25 would deliver the information to me probably tomorrow. They're planning

Page 12490

1 to put a witness on tomorrow. We have not -- still not received a summary

2 of what this witness is going to say. We have not received any proofing

3 notes. It would be nice that -- if sometime before this witness takes the

4 stand we receive the discovery that we're entitled to.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, number one: I didn't intervene before

7 during the explanation of my colleague. It is the obligation on the

8 Prosecution side to disclose any material with regard to the defendant.

9 At latest -- I'm just speaking in general terms.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Very, very briefly. Just answer what Mr. Weiner

11 said about the witness.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Just for the record, Your Honour -- I want to

13 clear up the record. I'm speaking about the obligation from the

14 Prosecution -- it is a general fact that they have to disclose that. We

15 are not in reciprocal disclosure, but it is not a situation that we are

16 not entitled for any material. So that's --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I think the explanation of the Prosecution is

18 on record.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Another thing, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: It's the witness -- the next witness after the

21 accused.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Another thing: We gave the summary -- I speak

23 personally with the -- with my colleagues about the range of testimony

24 that our first witness will come here in capacity of former member of

25 executive board about the events in Crisis Staff.

Page 12491

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Anyway, as far as you're concerned --

2 MR. PANTELIC: There is no proofing notes, Your Honour. That's

3 the basic point. And there are no -- any obligation with regard to the

4 Defence to give any kind of -- because there is no -- there is no proofing

5 notes. I can -- orally can inform him about the topic, about the --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Anyway, the summaries were given because the

7 summaries were --

8 MR. PANTELIC: The summaries were given and he will discuss all

9 materials with regard to the executive board and Crisis Staff; which is

10 evidence that we have here.

11 MR. WEINER: Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, just start cross-examination.

13 MR. WEINER: I was just going to say they've given us three or

14 four sentences. They indicated yesterday -- for the first time they told

15 us who the witness is, Mirko Lukic and then they said the witness will be

16 on for a full day. Three or four sentences --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought the summaries were the same that were

18 given to the -- that were filed also with the Trial Chamber.

19 MR. WEINER: And that's three or four sentences. They're talking

20 about putting a witness on direct examination for a day and we have three

21 or four sentences. And no proofing notes? You want to talk about ambush,

22 that's nothing more than ambush.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: So first witness will be -- according to you,

24 Mr. Weiner, is Mirko Lukic.

25 MR. WEINER: That's what I was told yesterday. If they'd confirm.

Page 12492

1 JUDGE MUMBA: They are not following the list as filed.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. And as we mentioned in our

3 brief -- and then Mr. Mirko Lukic, who was at that time a member of

4 executor -- will go through all these documents and exhibits. So nothing

5 is so exceptional. We have our line of defence. And I don't see any

6 particular reason why to expand this matter.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, cross-examination of the accused,

8 please.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Weiner:

10 Q. Good morning, sir. My name is Phillip Weiner, I'm a Prosecutor at

11 the Office of the Prosecutor here at the ICTY, and I'm going to ask you

12 some questions over the next few hours.

13 Having heard the evidence to date, sir, do you accept that Izet

14 Izetbegovic and others had their teeth pulled while being held in

15 detention in Bosanski Samac?

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what we just heard

17 as translation do not correspond at all with the transcript.

18 MR. WEINER: I'll ask the question again.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: In B/C/S -- the question that we heard in B/C/S is

20 whether Izetbegovic and others had power in Samac. This is what we heard

21 in translation.

22 MR. WEINER: I'll ask the question again, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe you can ask the question slowly.

24 MR. WEINER: Sure.

25 Q. Do you accept, after having heard the evidence so far, that Izet

Page 12493

1 Izetbegovic and other prisoners had their teeth pulled while they were

2 being held in detention in Bosanski Samac?

3 A. There were many questions there. Can you put this question to me

4 again but clearly.

5 Q. Do you accept that Izet Izetbegovic --

6 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. We are now in the legal

7 terms. Maybe the proper question will be: Do you know, personally know.

8 But if he is accepting, whether he has accepting --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. --

10 MR. PANTELIC: Or, you know, a fact

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, you haven't been given permission to

12 say anything. And will you sit down. There is no reason to interfere

13 with the question by the Prosecutor.

14 MR. PANTELIC: That was my official objection, Your Honour.

15 Nothing more.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: There is nothing wrong with the question. The

17 Prosecutor will go on.

18 MR. WEINER:

19 Q. Sir, after hearing the evidence, do you accept that Izet

20 Izetbegovic and other prisoners had their teeth pulled or forcibly removed

21 while they were being held in detention in Bosanski Samac?

22 A. I did not see that and I do not accept that.

23 Q. Do you accept that non-Serb prisoners were murdered at detention

24 facilities, at the police station, the Territorial Defence building, in

25 Crkvina, and other locations in Bosanski Samac?

Page 12494

1 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. It is -- it is too general

2 a question. We don't know where, which murder was committed --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Let the witness answer. If the question is not

4 proper, the Trial Chamber will say so. Mr. Pantelic I order outside --

5 out of the courtroom.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, the duty of Defence counsel is to

7 protect the rights of my client. And therefore I think that this question

8 is too general. There is no particular event. There is no particular

9 name. There is no particular so-called murder. Maybe the line of

10 questioning should be divided into these sections. That's all that I'm

11 asking. Otherwise, it's unbelievable. How can he know in all -- in all

12 municipality or in all area what was done? That's my duty, Your Honour,

13 to react.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: The accused was listening to the evidence throughout

15 the proceedings. And what -- and these questions are referring to the

16 Prosecution evidence.

17 MR. WEINER:

18 Q. Do you accept that non-Serb prisoners were murdered at detention

19 facilities, at the police station, Territorial Defence building, Crkvina,

20 and other locations in Bosanski Samac?

21 A. I did not see that. I was not an eyewitness when any murder was

22 committed or any mistreatment, and I cannot answer this question.

23 Q. So you cannot state whether or not you accept the evidence as to

24 those facts.

25 A. I cannot confirm that.

Page 12495

1 Q. Do you accept that non-Serb prisoners were forced to perform

2 fellatio on each other at the police station in Bosanski Samac?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you accept that prisoners, including Muhamed Bicic and Ibrahim

5 Salkic, were brutally beaten at various detention facilities in Bosanski

6 Samac?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You do not accept that fact even though two of your co-defendants

9 have pled to those charges?

10 A. I did not see that, and I cannot confirm that.

11 Q. My answer is not whether you saw it, not whether you can confirm

12 it. Do you accept it, especially after two of your co-defendants have

13 admitted to such conduct?

14 A. I'm saying that I did not see any of that and I cannot confirm

15 that.

16 Q. Do you accept that Sulejman Tihic, the SDA president, was forced

17 to go on Radio Samac and give a statement?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you accept that prisoners or labourers were forced to dig

20 trenches with bullets flying past them?

21 A. I did not see that either.

22 Q. Do you accept that prisoners and labourers were forced to loot

23 homes of non-Serb civilians?

24 A. I did not see that and no evidence was presented here to support

25 that.

Page 12496

1 Q. You did not hear the testimony of Esad Dagovic?

2 A. Esad Dagovic did not say whether that was a Serb house or a house

3 that belonged to somebody else. Serb houses were looted during the war as

4 well.

5 Q. You did not hear the testimony of Nusret Hadzijusufovic, sir?

6 A. I do not recall.

7 Q. Do you accept that many non-Serbs were arrested on the basis of

8 their ethnicity?

9 A. Only on the basis of ethnicity? No.

10 Q. You do not accept any of those statements, sir.

11 Let us continue. You were either the highest or a very

12 high-ranking civilian in Samac in the civilian government in 1992 after

13 April 17th.

14 A. No.

15 Q. You were a lowly official?

16 A. No. I was never a member of the civilian government.

17 Q. Sir, were you president of the SDS municipal board in Bosanski

18 Samac?

19 A. Until the war, yes.

20 Q. Were you president of the Crisis Staff in Samac?

21 A. In which period?

22 Q. After April 17th. You know what the Crisis Staff was, sir.

23 You've testified that you were president of it. Do you agree that you

24 were president of the Crisis Staff in April of 1992?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12497

1 Q. Do you agree that you were president of the War Presidency in

2 Bosanski Samac?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You were president of the Assembly of the Samac Municipality, sir;

5 isn't that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were representative to the Serbian Autonomous District of

8 Semberija and Majevica; is that correct?

9 A. I was nominated for that position, but I never attended and I

10 never got a decision in writing stating that. I mean, from the Assembly

11 of the SAO Semberija and Majevica, because when we adopted these

12 documents, very soon after that this was abolished altogether.

13 Q. Sir, you testified on November 15th about document 101. It was --

14 and you state -- "this is a document that also speaks about the relations

15 between the Serb Municipality of Samac and the SAO Semberija and Majevica.

16 It was issued on that same date and it says you had certain

17 representatives representing the Municipality of Bosanski Samac in SAO

18 Semberija and Majevica. Is that right?" And you said "Yes." Do you

19 recall that testimony and that answer?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps the accused should be shown document 101

21 again.

22 MR. WEINER: Sure. That's fine.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Just to refresh his memory.

24 When you say "document 101," is it an exhibit?

25 MR. WEINER: Exhibit P101.

Page 12498

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

2 MR. WEINER:

3 Q. "And let me just add, sir, there is a correction from the

4 interpreter. The representative of the Samac municipality in SAO

5 Semberija and Majevica was in fact Dr. Simic himself." That's what the

6 document says. Are you now denying you held that position?

7 MR. WEINER: Could I have the English, please.

8 Q. Sir, let me read this to you in English and they'll translate it

9 to you.

10 "The head of the Crisis Staff, Dr. Blagoje Simic. Shall represent

11 the Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac before the bodies and

12 institutions of SAO Semberija and Majevica." Is that correct, what I just

13 read? Is that what it says on that sheet of paper?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Well, Your Honour, it's just in -- when we are here

16 with this document, it's -- in terms of the translation. Well, maybe it's

17 the spirit of language, but in Article 1, in B/C/S language says

18 "President of Crisis Staff, Simic Dr. Blagoje." And since we are

19 operating here with these terms, it's very new -- new word here, "head of

20 certain institution." Although I can confirm that probably it's the same

21 thing. But for the clarity, I think we should -- we should proceed with

22 the term of "president" or "vice-president" or --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, you are wasting the Court's time.

24 This is the last warning. You've had those documents as exhibits and

25 you've had them. They were given to you. You never complained about

Page 12499

1 any misleading translation there.

2 MR. PANTELIC: It's not complaining --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Will you sit down.

4 MR. PANTELIC: It's okay. It's not complaining.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Just sit down.

6 The Prosecution may continue.

7 MR. WEINER:

8 Q. Sir --

9 MR. WEINER: Thank you. No more need for that document.

10 Q. So, Mr. Simic, do you agree that you held that position as

11 representative?

12 A. I agree that the Crisis Staff of the Municipality of Samac

13 proposed me to be a representative in the organs of the SAO Semberija and

14 Majevica, but I do not agree that my nomination was accepted by the organs

15 of the SAO Semberija and Majevica, because it's very far away

16 geographically. It doesn't cover the municipality of Samac and I never

17 got a decision in writing stating that I was accepted by that body. Our

18 wish was one thing and possibilities were another.

19 Q. Sir, do you agree that you held the position of deputy or

20 vice-president of the Serb Autonomous Region of Northern Bosnia and you

21 held that position until November -- I'm sorry, until November 30th, 1992?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Sir, I'd like to refer to the annex to the joint statement of

24 matters not in dispute. Page 12, "From 4 November 1991 through at least

25 30 November 1992, he," referring to Blagoje Simic, "was the deputy of the

Page 12500

1 Assembly of the self-declared Serb Autonomous Region of Northern Bosnia of

2 the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

3 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour, with regard to the

4 translation. What is the term "deputy"? Is it a deputy president or it

5 is -- he's deputy as a member of certain institution of parliament? So we

6 have to clarify that.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: The document --

8 MR. PANTELIC: Or he's just a member of parliament.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: The document was clear, and this is a document to

10 which you had a part in.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I am referring to the -- to the

12 translation, which we are receiving just right now. So maybe we could

13 clarify that with the witness. Because there is two terms. Whether

14 Dr. Simic was a deputy in terms of a member of certain institution, which

15 is SAO or whatever, or he was a vice-president of the institution which

16 title is SAO North Bosnia.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall stick to the official translation.

18 MR. WEINER:

19 Q. Sir, I'll say it again: The annex to the joint statement of

20 matters not in dispute state: "From 4 November 1991 through at least 30

21 November 1992, he" -- and we're referring to you "was the deputy of the

22 Assembly of the self-declared Serb Autonomous Region of Northern Bosnia of

23 the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

24 MR. PANTELIC: Again, Your Honour, we're receiving a translation

25 which is absolutely incorrect. Could -- my friend can clarify. What is

Page 12501

1 his meaning of the "deputy of assembly"? Because the Translation Unit

2 give us the translation that he was a vice-president of the Northern

3 Bosnia. And are you referring that he was a deputy, in terms of -- in

4 terms of member of parliament of SAO Bosnia? They are two different

5 things.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: This was an agreed document which contain this

7 information.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely, Your Honour. But the question is: Are

9 we speaking now in the same terms and speaking about the language that --

10 in B/C/S language is coming to the ear of my client. That's my

11 intervention. I'm not speaking about the fact that we made this agreement

12 fact. So maybe he can explain in extended version, my colleague.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: It's the accused who should explain. He knows what

14 portfolios he held.

15 MR. WEINER:

16 Q. Sir, tell us what positions you held between the 4th of November,

17 1991, and the 30th of November, 1992 in that body.

18 A. Which body?

19 Q. The Assembly of the self-declared Serb Autonomous Region of

20 Northern Bosnia of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 A. I did not have a decision in writing with regard to any particular

22 position.

23 Q. So now you claim that it is a matter in dispute. You no longer go

24 along with your agreement that you were the deputy of the Assembly of the

25 self-declared Serb Autonomous Region of Northern Bosnia of the Serb

Page 12502

1 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 A. In my testimony, I said that this SAO was not operating at all.

3 Literally it did not exist at all. And I did not get a decision in

4 writing --

5 Q. That's not the question. The question is that you have stipulated

6 that you were the deputy of that body. Are you now denouncing that

7 stipulation? That's my question.

8 A. Could you quote me where I admitted that. Where did I personally

9 admit that?

10 Q. Sure. I will read the whole paragraph of your stipulation.

11 "Blagoje Simic, born 1 July 1960, is a medical physician from

12 Kruskovo Polje, Bosanski Samac municipality. From 1991 to 1995 Blagoje

13 Simic was president of the municipal chapter of the Serbian Democratic

14 Party, SDS, in Bosanski Samac. Blagoje Simic was the vice-president --

15 I'm sorry, vice chairman of the municipal assembly from 1991 through 12 --

16 I'm sorry, through 17 April 1992. And from 4 November 1991 through at

17 least 30 November 1992 he was the deputy of the Assembly of the

18 self-declared Serb Autonomous Region of Northern Bosnia of the Serb

19 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. On or about 17 April 1992, Blagoje Simic

20 was appointed president of the Crisis Staff in the Municipal Assembly of

21 the Serbian People of Bosanski Samac and of the Municipality of Pelagicevo

22 under formation. On or about 21 July 1992 the Crisis Staff was renamed

23 the War Presidency of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac, and

24 Blagoje Simic was named president of the War Presidency. On or about 22

25 January 1993 Blagoje Simic was elected speaker of the Samac Municipal

Page 12503

1 Assembly and served in that position until 1996."

2 That is your stipulation, sir. Are you now renouncing it?

3 A. Is my signature there?

4 Q. No. But the name of your attorney is on the cover of it. Are you

5 renouncing it, or is that still your stipulation?

6 A. In relation to the SAO Northern Bosnia, I renounce these

7 stipulations because they are not correct.

8 Q. Were you one of two representatives from Samac to the Assembly of

9 Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. What do you mean by "representative"? I was never an MP, a member

11 of parliament.

12 Q. Were you a representative from your community of Samac to the

13 Assembly of Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. No.

15 MR. WEINER: May we see Exhibit P124, please, and may that be

16 shown to the defendant.

17 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to -- I invite your attention to page 13 of the

18 gazette, decisions 1 and 2. I will read them.

19 Decision 1: "The representatives of the Serbian people from the

20 territory of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo

21 under formation are hereby appointed."

22 Decision 2: "Dr. Blagoje Simic and Mirko Dragisic are appointed

23 representatives of the Serbian people from the territory of the Serbian

24 Municipality of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo under formation in the

25 Assembly of the Serbian People of BH," meaning Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 12504

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I think we have certain problems to

3 locate this particular decision, so could we have a reference of the top

4 left number in the -- because there is a problem with the English

5 original -- with the translation in English. So what is on the top

6 left-hand corner, which number, so that we can follow -- we can locate

7 this number in the Official Gazette number 1? Because page 13 -- we have

8 only 12 pages. That's the problem with the original version.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

10 MR. WEINER: Number 01/ -- no 01-3/92, date 28.3.1992.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe we could go -- what is the ERN number of the

12 English version?

13 MR. WEINER: 00479569.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. You see, on that decision, you see on the

15 left-hand -- just in the mid-way of the page, number 4. So that's the

16 useful number that we need to have in order to find in Serbian language

17 exact number, you know, because otherwise if you cannot make a reference

18 with ERN number in B/C/S language, then we are lost. But now we can

19 follow. So just follow the number on the left -- top left-hand side and

20 we could resolve that matter. Thank you.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Maybe, Mr. Weiner, we can make sure that

22 Mr. Simic is on the right page and so on.

23 MR. WEINER:

24 Q. Is that what it says, sir?

25 A. It doesn't say what you said.

Page 12505

1 Q. Let me read it again. "The representatives --" why don't you

2 follow it along with me. "The representatives of the Serbian people from

3 the territory of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo

4 under formation are hereby appointed." Is that what it says in decision

5 1?

6 A. The word "representatives," yes. It says "predstavnici," yes,

7 that's right. But not "zastupnici." And it doesn't say "narodni

8 poslanici," either. In the sense of MPs, members of parliament.

9 Q. I said "representatives." I'm not asking you about members of

10 parliament. I'm not asking you about anything else. My question is: Does

11 it say those words that --

12 A. You asked me whether I was a zastupnik, a represent in that sense.

13 I was not a zastupnik.

14 Q. Let's go to the next sentence: "Blagoje Simic and Mirko Dragisic

15 are appointed representatives of the Serbian people from the territory of

16 the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo under formation

17 in the Assembly of the Serbian People of BH." Is that what it says.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Can you move the document on the ELMO.

19 A. Representatives, predstavnici.

20 Q. Correct. That's what it says, representatives. You were a

21 representative --

22 A. Representative as predstavnik, yes. And that basically doesn't

23 mean a thing.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, for two different terms that my client

25 is now trying to explain. There is one term in English language -- so

Page 12506

1 when Dr. Simic makes reference to that issue, the same word is going on

2 the display and in the earphones for these two terms, which according to

3 his explanation are different. And maybe our friends from interpreter

4 booths can clarify that. In fact, here we are speaking about a word in

5 B/C/S is "zastupnici," which means that certain person is appointed by

6 power of attorney and stuff like that.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. --

8 MR. PANTELIC: And the other word he's using --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, these are not in your documents which

10 are coming on if scene now. You've had them as exhibits. You've read

11 them. You've got instructions from your client. There is nothing new

12 here.

13 MR. PANTELIC: No problem, Your Honour. The problem is that my

14 client right now makes in B/C/S, in his own native language, makes two

15 different terms for one term in English, "representative." That's the

16 basis of my objection, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: We are going to follow the --

18 MR. PANTELIC: He is not, you know, a -- I don't know what's going

19 on. I mean, it's not clear for him.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: We are going to follow the official translation.

21 That's all. That's why we have official interpreters and translators in

22 this Tribunal.

23 MR. WEINER:

24 Q. Let's move on, sir. Sir, you said you were a member of the Crisis

25 Staff; correct?

Page 12507

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You stated that Miroslav Tadic was a member of the Crisis Staff;

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You stated that Simo Zaric was not a member of the Crisis Staff.

6 That's correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. But he was involved in various military and police matters.

9 A. I said that?

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I heard that he was involved in

11 police matters. Security issues within military service. That's another

12 point.

13 MR. WEINER: It's my question.

14 Q. He was involved in various police, security, military matters; is

15 that correct?

16 A. And where did I describe what he dealt with?

17 Q. That's my question to you: Was he involved in various police,

18 security, or military matters?

19 A. I don't know about that.

20 Q. So you don't know what involvement Simo Zaric had during April of

21 1992 in Bosanski Samac?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You don't know what involvement Simo Zaric had in May of 1992 in

24 Bosanski Samac?

25 A. No.

Page 12508

1 Q. You don't know what, if any, involvement or activities Simo Zaric

2 was involved in or performed in June of 1992 in Bosanski Samac?

3 A. No, or did I ever follow him or was I interested in what he was

4 doing or were we friends.

5 Q. We're going to get to that, sir. We're going to get to all of

6 those topics. Let us continue.

7 Sir, you indicated that -- you've testified that Stevan Todorovic

8 was not a member of the Crisis Staff.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you've testified that he has falsely stated that he was a

11 member of the Crisis Staff.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sir, are you aware that Miroslav Tadic, a fellow member of the

14 Crisis Staff, in Exhibit P138 has provided a statement to the Office of

15 the Prosecutor and has stated at paragraphs 39 and 40 that Stevan

16 Todorovic served on the Crisis Staff of Bosanski Samac? Are you aware of

17 that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know any reason why Miroslav Tadic would lie about that or

20 say that if it wasn't true?

21 MR. PANTELIC: Objection. Calling for speculation.

22 MR. WEINER: No, Your Honour, I'm asking --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: It's a perfect question. It's cross-examination.

24 MR. WEINER:

25 Q. Are you aware of any reason why Miroslav Tadic would say that if

Page 12509

1 it wasn't true?

2 A. I don't understand the question.

3 Q. Are you aware of any reason why Miroslav Tadic would state that

4 Stevan Todorovic was a member of the Crisis Staff if it wasn't true? Are

5 you aware of any reason that Miroslav Tadic would state that?

6 A. Only if he had not been informed.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that the witness

8 is being asked to speculate as to what another person thought.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'm --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: That's not speculation. This is cross-examination,

11 and it followed upon the answer of the accused. It's a proper question,

12 as far as the Trial Chamber is concerned.

13 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 I'm sorry, Your Honour, is it time for the break now or are we

15 going to break at 11.00 or --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We shall break now and continue our proceedings

17 at 11.00 hours.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the Prosecution.

21 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, if we are still on the same topic,

23 maybe it would be useful to have this portion of the interview of

24 Mr. Tadic and maybe the accused can be familiarised with that. If there

25 is certain references, because it's a long document, so maybe if my

Page 12510

1 colleague would like to make certain references, then a certain portion

2 could be read out to the defendant or show this particular part of the

3 interview. That's the only suggestion of some proceedings. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, Mr. Weiner.

5 MR. WEINER: I'd be happy to do that, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

7 MR. WEINER:

8 Q. When we left off, sir, we were talking about a member of the

9 Crisis Staff stating that Stevan Todorovic was a member of the Crisis

10 Staff, was a fellow member of the Crisis Staff. And I'm going to read to

11 you some paragraphs from his testimony.

12 "Okay." This is a question from Nancy Paterson. Question, on

13 page 39, which is -- which is Exhibit P138, Your Honour, the last question

14 and answer.

15 "Okay. I have to ask you a few more questions about the Crisis

16 Staff. Can you tell us, you were members of the Crisis Staff besides

17 you." It should be "who were members of the Crisis Staff besides you?"

18 "Why not. As you know, the president of the Crisis Staff was

19 Dr. Blagoje Simic. At first, to start with there was also Mirko

20 Jovanovic, who I also did not know. At the multi-party elections, it was

21 not the party elections in 1991 or whenever it was, I can't remember, but

22 what it was, he became president of the executive board of the

23 Municipality of Samac. He was from Orasje. I believe -- I presume

24 because nobody knew him in Samac. And then there was Stevan Todorovic,

25 Simeon Simic, Fadil Topcagic -- sorry, could you repeat whom I've already

Page 12511

1 given names. Maybe I've forgotten someone."

2 "Okay. It was Blagoje Simic, Mirko Jovanovic, Stevo Todorovic,

3 Simeon Simic, Fadil Topcagic, you've told us before Milos Bogdanovic,

4 yourself, so that's two, four, six, seven, counting yourself."

5 Sir, I ask you again: Do you know any reason why Miroslav Tadic

6 would say that Stevan Todorovic was a fellow member of the Crisis Staff if

7 it wasn't true?

8 A. Due to the fact that he hadn't been informed.

9 Q. Sir, let us continue. Are you aware that your co-defendant Simo

10 Zaric in Exhibit P141 provided a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor

11 and has acknowledged on page 7 that Stevan Todorovic was a member of the

12 Crisis Staff? Let me read that to you, sir.

13 MR. WEINER: I'm reading from Exhibit 141, page 7, top of the

14 page.

15 Q. "Zaric: Well, the police commander was Stevan Todorovic and he

16 was already a member of the Crisis Staff, which was newly formed."

17 Sir, do you know of any reason why Simo Zaric would say that

18 Stevan Todorovic was a member of the Crisis Staff if he wasn't a member?

19 A. I'm not aware of any reason why would Simo Zaric know who the

20 members of the Crisis Staff are.

21 Q. No, sir. You haven't answered my question. Are you aware of any

22 reason why Simo Zaric would make that statement if it wasn't true?

23 A. No. But I wish to add something.

24 Q. Sure.

25 A. We had no links to Simo Zaric, so I don't see how could he have

Page 12512

1 known who the members of the Crisis Staff were.

2 Q. That's the second time you've said that today, that you had no

3 links to Simo Zaric. And you also said earlier that you were not aware of

4 his actions or Simo Zaric's activities in June of 1992; is that correct?

5 A. You asked me what Simo Zaric had dealt with, and I told you that I

6 didn't know about that. "Dealt with" means what kind of tasks he executed

7 on a daily basis, was involved in, and so on.

8 Q. Sir, isn't it true that in June or late May or June of 1992 you

9 went to Belgrade with Simo Zaric and others? Isn't that true, late May or

10 June of 1992?

11 A. I think that it is true that we met in Belgrade, and it is

12 possible that we started out together, but I don't remember.

13 Q. And that was the trip for humanitarian reasons, sir? You went

14 Miroslav Tadic, Simo Zaric, and Stevan Todorovic; correct?

15 A. I went with Miroslav Tadic, Milos Bogdanovic. And it just so

16 happened that Stevan Todorovic was the driver, so he joined the team.

17 Q. So you let Stevan -- actually, first tell me: How far away from

18 Bosanski Samac is Belgrade?

19 A. Over 200 kilometres.

20 Q. And you let Stevan Todorovic, who you claim to be an alcoholic and

21 abuser of pills, drive you that distance? Is that what you're trying to

22 say, sir?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you took him to this meeting of a humanitarian nature;

25 correct?

Page 12513

1 A. No. I didn't take him anywhere. He crashed the party, so to

2 speak. He joined on his own.

3 Q. So you just let him join you and go all the way to Belgrade for

4 humanitarian meetings or humanitarian meetings with Andjelko Maslic.

5 A. It wasn't that I allowed him to come with us. He didn't ask for

6 my consent. He didn't ask us anything.

7 Q. All right. Let's move on. You went to a meeting with Andjelko

8 Maslic and then you attended a 40-minute meeting at the Air Force command

9 centre; correct? That's what you've testified to.

10 A. We were at the meeting with Andjelko Maslic, and then we went to

11 have a coffee at Stevan Todorovic's best man's, because we had no other

12 alternative.

13 Q. And that was at the Air Force headquarters; correct?

14 A. I think that that's right, but I'm not a hundred per cent sure. I

15 don't think I would be able to find the place today.

16 Q. And you told this Chamber that you don't recall what the

17 discussion was during that 40-minute meeting; isn't that correct? Isn't

18 that what you told this Chamber?

19 A. I said that I didn't remember the details, that we discussed all

20 problems of the municipality.

21 Q. Sir, isn't it true that you travelled to Belgrade to have Crni

22 approved at the new commander of the armed forces? Isn't that the real

23 reason you went to that 40-minute meeting at the Air Force command centre?

24 A. No, that was not the reason of our going there at all.

25 Q. Sir, isn't it true that you contacted Simo Zaric in the middle of

Page 12514

1 the night and told him that he should join the delegation going to

2 Belgrade? Isn't that what you said?

3 A. No. The meeting was organised by Milos Bogdanovic.

4 Q. Sir, didn't you also tell him in that telephone conversation that

5 there was a task to be carried out, referring to Belgrade? Isn't that

6 what you told him?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Sir, let's return to the exhibit from -- of the interview of Simo

9 Zaric. And I want to read to you, on page 36, from Simo Zaric's statement

10 to the Office of the Prosecutor.

11 "I was called in the middle of the night by Mr. Blagoje Simic, who

12 said to me that I should join this delegation going to Belgrade and that

13 there was a task to be carried out. I asked what it was about, and he

14 said that I should see once we were in Belgrade. I did not even think of

15 refusing. Miroslav Tadic, that you know very well, was also asked the

16 same thing. So the next day in the early morning we set off for Belgrade.

17 Mr. Blagoje Simic, Mr. Stevan Todorovic, Mr. Miroslav Tadic, me, and then

18 we were joined in Belgrade by Milos Bogdanovic, who was a member of the

19 Crisis Staff and he was a Secretary for National Defence in Samac."

20 Sir, do you know any reason why Simo Zaric would make that

21 statement if it wasn't true?

22 A. I don't understand the question. This is a statement given by

23 Simo Zaric, not me.

24 Q. Do you know of any reason why Simo Zaric would make that statement

25 if it was not true or correct, sir?

Page 12515

1 A. I can't answer the question that is put to me in this form.

2 Q. Then let us continue, if you can't answer the question.

3 Isn't it true the next day on the way to Belgrade you told Simo

4 Zaric that you were going there to get Crni approved, referring to the new

5 military commander's position?

6 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me. There is an intervention in the

7 transcript. Page 45, line 3: The true and correct form of the answer of

8 the defendant would be "I don't know how to answer to this question." It

9 is not "I can't answer." I do not know how to answer on that question

10 that is put to me in this form; that was the correct -- the correct answer

11 of Dr. Simic.

12 MR. WEINER: I'll accept that form.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

14 MR. WEINER:

15 Q. Sir, isn't it true that the next day on the way to Belgrade you

16 told Simo Zaric that you needed to get to Belgrade to get Crni approved

17 and you were referring to the position of new military commander?

18 A. I didn't say anything to Simo Zaric.

19 Q. Let's refer to page 36. "Already in the car we were told that all

20 this was about Crni and we needed to get to Belgrade to get approval."

21 Did you make that statement, sir?

22 A. Could you please repeat the question.

23 Q. I'm quoting from Simo Zaric's statement, page 36: "Already in the

24 car we were told that all this was about Crni and that we needed to get to

25 Belgrade to get approval." Is that your statement, sir?

Page 12516

1 A. No.

2 Q. So you knew, sir, why you were going to Belgrade, didn't you?

3 A. We went to Belgrade because of humanitarian problems.

4 Q. Sir, let's continue on that meeting that you don't recall at the

5 Air Force command. Isn't it true at that meeting it was decided that Crni

6 should be the military commander and that during this meeting you spoke

7 with General Mladic on the phone, the alleged war criminal General Mladic?

8 Isn't that correct, sir?

9 A. No.

10 Q. This information doesn't refresh your recollection to what

11 happened at that meeting, sir?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Let me quote Simo Zaric, page 39 of his interview: "And after,

14 Blagoje Simic spoke to General Mladic and he came back, he was all red and

15 flushed. It was very easy to realise that he had been shouted at and

16 Mladic had said to him apparently that he as president of the Crisis Staff

17 had many civilian matters to attend and that he should not meddle in the

18 appointments of brigade commanders. The general message was that he was

19 far away and he wanted the matter settled and that this was not the way to

20 do it but he just wanted the matter settled for once and for all."

21 Do you recall -- do you recall that situation happening at that

22 meeting?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you recall speaking to General Mladic, sir, the war criminal,

25 the alleged war criminal?

Page 12517

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know of any reason why Simo Zaric would describe this type

3 of meeting -- this wasn't a humanitarian meeting -- would describe that

4 meeting in this way if it wasn't true or correct?

5 A. I don't know how to answer that question.

6 MR. WEINER: Excuse me one moment.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MR. WEINER:

9 Q. Sir, by the way, did you ever meet with General Mladic in 1992 and

10 1993?

11 A. He came on one occasion to Samac after the arrest of Stevan

12 Todorovic and Milan Simic, and that was the only time.

13 Q. Did you ever meet with General Mladic in the municipality or the

14 town of Doboj in 1992 in October?

15 A. With him personally, no.

16 Q. We'll get back to that.

17 Sir, let's talk about the paramilitaries or the strike battalion,

18 as you described them, that arrived from Serbia. When did they arrive?

19 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. The defendant never said

20 that the paramilitaries were the strike battalion. He said in the

21 examination-in-chief that parts of the strike battalion were a certain

22 number of volunteers. But with this kind of question, there is an

23 equality between "paramilitaries" and the term of "strike battalion," so I

24 ask to -- that this question should be correct. Because he never said

25 that the volunteers are equal to strike battalion.

Page 12518

1 MR. WEINER: I'll call them the volunteers, the assault group. If

2 he'll answer a question, I'll call them whatever he would like, Your

3 Honour.

4 Q. Let's call them the volunteers. Sir, when did the volunteers

5 arrive?

6 A. Could you put a specific question to me.

7 Q. Do you know when they arrived in the municipality of Bosanski

8 Samac, when Crni and his group arrived? Do you know when they arrived?

9 A. The stories had it that it was on the 10th of April, 1992 -- the

10 10th or 11th of April, 1992.

11 Q. When did you learn that they arrived on that date?

12 A. I think on the 15th of April, 1992.

13 Q. And do you know how they arrived?

14 A. In helicopters of the Yugoslav People's Army.

15 Q. And where did they arrive, what area?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Who sent them?

18 A. I don't know.

19 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P116, please.

20 Q. Sir, did you discuss the matter of the paramilitaries with an

21 investigative judge in December of 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that's the statement that you signed?

24 A. I signed the original document, and this is a copy.

25 Q. Now, let's look at page 2, the second sentence of the second

Page 12519

1 paragraph: "I know that Crni came to the Posavina for the first time on

2 10 April this year together with his assault group from Serbia, which

3 arrived in helicopters and it landed in the village of Batkusa." Does

4 that refresh your recollection of where the assault group arrived?

5 A. You asked me in which territory that group landed. You didn't ask

6 me about a particular town or place.

7 Q. Well, tell us, where did they arrive when they got to Bosanski

8 Samac, to the municipality?

9 A. Batkusa, municipality Bosanski Samac.

10 Q. Let's go to the next sentence: "At that time the JNA still

11 existed and they were sent by the Serbian MUP, Ministry of Interior,

12 together with 18 of our own men who had been attending a training course

13 in --" it's unclear what the word is -- "in Serbia." Is that correct,

14 sir? Is that what it says there?

15 A. Is what correct?

16 Q. What I've just read to you, is that what it says there? Would you

17 like me to read it again? I'd be happy to.

18 A. Are you asking me whether this is what is stated in this document

19 or do you want me to confirm whether it is so? I did not read this paper.

20 I signed it without reading it, and I do not accept that this statement

21 was given under normal circumstances.

22 Q. We'll get to that very shortly, but what I first want to do is --

23 did I read that correctly? Let me read the next two sentences. Tell me

24 if I read them correctly and then tell me if that's not what you said.

25 "At that time --" I'm reading from the third sentence in the

Page 12520

1 second paragraph -- or the first full paragraph, which indicates -- the

2 first full paragraph.

3 "At that time the JNA still existed and they were sent by Serbian

4 MUP/Ministry of Interior together with 18 of our own men who had been

5 attending a training course in --" can't be deciphered "in Serbia. It was

6 those men that made up the assault battalion that carried out all the

7 tasks assigned to it very successfully."

8 Number one: Did I just read that correctly?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did you tell the investigating judge or prosecutor, did you

11 tell or provide the investigating judge or prosecutor with that

12 information?

13 A. Not this way, no.

14 Q. Sir, do you deny that you made that statement?

15 A. I don't know what kind of statement I made because I did not read

16 it.

17 Q. Do you deny that you said that information to the investigating

18 judge or prosecutor who took the statement?

19 A. I cannot recall now what I said then, but I talked about the

20 conditions under which this was taken, and Stevan Todorovic did more of

21 the talking more than I did.

22 Q. Sir, this witness statement, right above that paragraph it says,

23 "The witness stated the following." Is Stevan Todorovic's name on this

24 witness statement?

25 A. No.

Page 12521

1 Q. Does this say "joint statement of Stevan Todorovic and Blagoje

2 Simic"?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did Stevan Todorovic sign this statement?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Sir, you told the investigative judge that you were aware that 18

7 of your local residents had been attending a training course in Serbia and

8 they helped make up the strike battalion with these volunteers; is that

9 correct?

10 A. I don't know what I said to the investigative judge. After ten

11 years, I don't.

12 Q. Sir, you claim that you did this under stressful situations.

13 Unlike the other witnesses in this case, were you under arrest when you

14 provided a statement to the authorities?

15 A. My health condition was very poor. People who were in authority

16 were arrested. The clash between the military and the civilian government

17 was evident in the ground and --

18 Q. Stop. That's not my question. My question to you was: Were you

19 under arrest when you gave that statement? It's a simple question.

20 A. At that moment I thought that I was under arrest.

21 Q. Sir, you've testified about this a few days ago.

22 MR. WEINER: One moment, please.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

24 MR. WEINER:

25 Q. Sir, you never testified that you were under arrest at the time

Page 12522

1 that you gave the statement.

2 A. No. I described who was present and under what conditions. Since

3 I was there, it looked as if I had been arrested.

4 Q. Sir, you previously testified that you were not under arrest at

5 the time you gave this statement; isn't that correct?

6 A. I didn't say now that I was under arrest either. I just said that

7 it looked as if I was under arrest. It looked as if I was under arrest.

8 Q. But you were not under arrest at the time you provided that

9 statement; isn't that true?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And sir, unlike the other witnesses in this case, when you gave

12 that statement you weren't in a beaten, bloodied, and bruised condition.

13 A. My health condition was very serious because I had been wounded

14 and I almost could not move.

15 Q. We're talking about the time when you shot yourself in the foot or

16 the leg? Is that the wound you're talking about, almost six months

17 earlier?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You weren't in a bloodied condition at that time. You hadn't just

20 been beaten. Isn't that correct, sir, when you gave that statement?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Unlike the witnesses in this case, you weren't beaten during the

23 statement; isn't that correct? You weren't beaten as part of the

24 interrogation.

25 A. I was not being beaten.

Page 12523

1 Q. Unlike the witnesses in this case, you weren't starving from a

2 lack of food when you gave your statement.

3 A. I would not compare myself to other witnesses in this case. At

4 that time I was very undernourished.

5 Q. Could you repeat that answer. It doesn't make any sense, sir.

6 You said you would not compare yourself to the other witnesses in this

7 case?

8 A. I would not compare myself to other witnesses in this case, but at

9 that moment I was also very undernourished.

10 Q. Sir, you've testified about that statement previously, haven't

11 you?

12 A. Which statement?

13 Q. On direct examination, on this statement. You testified on

14 November 15th, 1992 [sic], do you recall testifying on direct examination

15 and being questioned about that statement?

16 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. It's rather confusing for

17 the witness. He said that Dr. Simic testified on November 15th, 1992. We

18 heard that in our earphones.

19 MR. WEINER: I'm sorry, November 15th, 2002.

20 MR. PANTELIC: I don't know. We have a record here of 14

21 December, 1992. So we are little bit confused what he meant by this.

22 Thank you.

23 MR. WEINER:

24 Q. You testified last week, November 15th, 2002 on direct examination

25 or examination-in-chief about that statement; isn't that correct, sir?

Page 12524

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you never said at that time that you were in pain while you

3 gave the statement; isn't that correct?

4 A. Did I say now that I was in pain?

5 Q. You said you had pain because you shot yourself in the leg six

6 months earlier, or you had trouble moving your leg. Are you now saying

7 you were in pain when you gave that statement?

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 Q. But you never said last week you were in pain.

10 A. [No interpretation]

11 Q. And you never said last week that you were undernourished when you

12 gave that statement; isn't that true?

13 A. I was convalescing; that is to say, a patient who convalesces

14 after a serious injury. I lost a lot of weight, a lot of kilogrammes and

15 a lot of blood in that period. During the surgical operation the deep

16 blood vessels were obliterated and the peripheral blood vessels were

17 taking over the function of the deep blood vessels. The colour of my limb

18 was changing and gangrene was constantly looming over me, and therefore my

19 medical situation was so serious.

20 Q. Sir, you testified about this last Friday, November 15th, 2002.

21 You never stated that; correct?

22 A. Then I stated that the statement was taken under conditions that

23 were not normal and under duress, that I did not have any legal counsel --

24 Q. Sir, my question is: You didn't make that statement about your

25 medical condition last Friday when you were questioned by your attorney;

Page 12525

1 isn't that correct?

2 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I don't know where we are going with

3 this kind of questioning. It wasn't even my question, so how a person can

4 answer to a question which was never raised. So this is for the first

5 time that he got this question. So don't make this confusion and make --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, Mr. Pantelic, it's you who is wrong. I

7 don't think you are understanding or following the questioning. There is

8 nothing wrong with the questions that Mr. Weiner is putting to the

9 accused.

10 MR. PANTELIC: I'm speaking what was done in examination-in-chief,

11 Your Honour. I never asked him about these issues; simply as that.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you just sit down.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Of course.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution can continue.

15 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

16 Q. Just a very simple question: You never described having a medical

17 problem at the interrogation when you testified last Friday, November

18 15th, 2002; isn't that correct?

19 A. That's not correct. I tendered the history of my illness, the

20 place where I was operated on. It says what the operation was like. It

21 says there that I was a very serious patient and the human body cannot

22 convalesce that quickly.

23 Q. My question is: When you described the circumstances surrounding

24 the interrogation, you never stated that you were suffering from a medical

25 problem. When you made that -- when you described that episode, you never

Page 12526

1 said that last Friday; isn't that correct?

2 A. But in the episode before that I explained that my health

3 condition was poor for months.

4 Q. I'm not asking you about the episode before. I'm asking you about

5 that specific episode. It's a very simple question. You never described

6 any medical problems that you had during the interrogation when you

7 testified last Friday, November 15th, 2002. It's a simple question. Yes

8 or no?

9 A. That's not the question that was put to me.

10 Q. Well, answer it. Take that question, please. You never described

11 any -- having any medical problems while you were being interrogated when

12 you testified last week, last Friday, November 15th, 2002; isn't that

13 correct?

14 A. I do not recall every word I said.

15 Q. You don't recall every word you said in this document either, so

16 let's talk about it. This first paragraph about Crni arriving and 18

17 men -- 18 local men being trained and arriving with the paramilitaries, do

18 you contest the validity of that paragraph?

19 A. I contest the validity of that entire document, that is to say,

20 from the first to the last word.

21 Q. Sir, is that your signature at the end of the document?

22 A. Yes. But before that, there is the sentence stating that it had

23 not been read out to me. And my signature is on the original document,

24 not on the copy.

25 Q. Sir --

Page 12527

1 A. I don't know what I signed.

2 Q. Sir, does it state the following, the last two sentences before

3 you signed: "I have nothing else to state. I do not wish to read the

4 record since my statement was dictated out loud, so I signed the record

5 without any comments." Is that what it says just above your signature?

6 A. Legal people can mess things up in all sorts of ways. My request

7 was to state it there that nothing was read out to me and that I would

8 sign it only then.

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Weiner. I'm sorry.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Dr. Simic, there is a specific question. A part of

11 the document you signed was read to you, and all counsel was asking

12 whether that was stated on the document. That's all.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes. My question, Dr. Simic, is: Who dictated

14 the statement out loud?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two prosecutors.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And you were there present and heard the

17 dictation.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But I did not pay any

19 attention to that. I had not had sufficient legal information. I was not

20 aware of legal remedy. I did not have legal counsel. My health condition

21 was very poor. There was pressure from all sides. I was not asked to

22 come to testify as a witness, and I was never given the possibility to

23 explain this. Nobody later called me in to explain this document, nor was

24 I ever a witness at any trial.

25 MR. WEINER:

Page 12528

1 Q. Sir, you testified last week, not many days ago, on November 15th.

2 You never stated that this whole statement is false or incorrect or wrong;

3 isn't that true, sir?

4 A. I have said that I do not accept it because it was taken under

5 abnormal conditions. And when I say "do not accept," that is what I mean.

6 Q. Sir, let me read out -- let me read out the questions and answers

7 that you made last week concerning how this was dictated and read.

8 Q. Tell me, although of course you're not a legal expert. In

9 these proceedings before a military court in other proceedings

10 before the relevant courts, is a record compiled like here in

11 the Tribunal where every word is recorded or does the person

12 who is carrying out the examination, like the investigating

13 judge, does that person then dictate what the person who was

14 giving the answers said?

15 Answer -- and I'm referring to page 12397 if the Court wants to

16 follow along.

17 A. The difference is that when we had a normal conversation and

18 then one of the prosecutors would make a summary, dictate this

19 to the typist, and thus create this record.

20 Q. So he conveyed the content of your at the same time, not

21 faithfully, word for word, but in abbreviated form, abridged

22 form.

23 A. In abridged form.

24 So you stated last week that this was your statement in abridged

25 form. You're now stating today that this is not your statement.

Page 12529

1 A. I described then also how the statement was taken. I did not read

2 the document. It was not read out to me. I do not know what I signed.

3 The conditions under which it was taken were abnormal. This was under

4 duress. I did not have any legal counsel. I did not have any legal

5 protection, and I was never called to testify about this document in

6 court.

7 Q. Sir, you never said last week that you were under duress when you

8 gave your statement; isn't that correct?

9 A. I said that I gave it under abnormal conditions.

10 Q. But you never said you were under duress last week when you gave

11 the statement. Sir, last week you indicated two errors, and those

12 referred to the next-to-last paragraph of -- the next-to-last paragraph of

13 the statement and on the second page, the third paragraph. You never

14 stated that any other section of this statement was incorrect; isn't that

15 true?

16 A. I don't know which term I should use so that you would understand

17 me. I really do not know how to use any legal terms. I'm using my own

18 words. You cannot convince me now that something was normal when it was

19 abnormal. The medical term for this was pathological. It was a

20 pathological situation. It was an abnormal situation. One way or the

21 other, regardless of whether you want to portray this way or that way, it

22 was an abnormal, pathological situation. And in that situation, I cannot

23 accept a document that was compiled then.

24 Q. Sir, my question again is: Last week you testified that there

25 were two errors in this statement. You did not say that this whole

Page 12530

1 statement was incorrect or wrong or untruthful; isn't that right? Just

2 answer the simple question.

3 A. I cannot give a simple answer. The Honourable Judges put

4 questions to me during my testimony here, and I explained to Their Honours

5 how abnormal the situation was, how I did not have legal counsel, how --

6 Q. That's not my question. I'm not asking you about the

7 circumstances. I'm asking you about last week's testimony. You indicated

8 that there were two errors in this statement. You never said that the

9 whole statement was incorrect or wrong.

10 A. Are you interested in the truth or are you interested in what

11 you're trying to prove? Which words should I use to state that the

12 situation was abnormal, pathological? I only know how to use medical

13 terms, and I think that you understand me very well. As for this legal

14 mess that you're trying to create, that's a different thing. I don't know

15 how to answer that. I can only use my own words, and I know what the

16 situation was like.

17 Q. I'm not asking you --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, I think we've belaboured the point.

19 It's clear that the accused will maintain what he's saying.

20 MR. WEINER:

21 Q. Sir, nowhere in this statement does it say when you talk about

22 Crni that Crni led an assault battalion made up of rogues and criminals.

23 You never said that. It's not included in this statement, is it, sir?

24 A. Which statement?

25 Q. This statement that you gave to the military. In no place did you

Page 12531

1 state -- or is it indicated in this statement that Crni was leading a

2 group of rogues and criminals; is that correct, sir?

3 A. I said that I do not accept this statement, that I do not know

4 what I had signed, and that I cannot give answers to things that are

5 stated in that document. I cannot give reliable answers.

6 Q. Sir, did you tell that investigative judge that Crni led a group

7 of rogues and criminals?

8 A. Ten years later I do not know what I said to him.

9 Q. You didn't state to the investigative judge or prosecutor that

10 Lugar, who was discussed in this statement, was a mass murderer and killed

11 16 civilians, non-Serb civilians, in Crkvina. You didn't state that, did

12 you, sir?

13 A. I do not know what I stated. There is the possibility that I did

14 state that.

15 Q. However, nowhere within this statement that you signed does it

16 have -- does it have that notation.

17 A. You have not shown me the original document yet. What you have

18 there is a copy.

19 Q. Sir, what we have in evidence is P116, and that's what we can show

20 you. My question to you again is: Is there any indication in that

21 statement about the crimes that Lugar committed?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Well, could you please look at it.

24 A. What is mentioned here is Crni only, if I read this right.

25 Q. Sir, three paragraphs from the bottom, on page 3 it talks about

Page 12532

1 the corridor being closed. Were you aware that the Posavina Corridor was

2 closed after the kidnapping of Milan Simic and Stevan Todorovic?

3 A. At the time when they were arrested, the corridor was closed, but

4 I think that there were a number of reasons for that and that later came

5 out during the trial in Banja Luka.

6 Q. Sir, were you aware that Crni and his battalion shut down the

7 corridor with the support of the Samac War Presidency given subsequent to

8 the closing of the corridor?

9 A. The War Presidency did not pass any decisions.

10 Q. Did they make a verbal authorisation or statement supporting the

11 closing of the corridor, as it says here in your statement?

12 A. This is what is in the statement of a military prosecutor who is

13 conducting an interview with a representative of a civilian authority at

14 the time when there was a major polarisation between these two segments of

15 the society.

16 Q. But sir, you're not just a representative of a civilian authority.

17 You're an educated man. You're a medical doctor. You're a highly

18 educated -- you might have been far more educated than the person who

19 interviewed you, and you signed this document as your statement; isn't

20 that correct?

21 A. How did you come up with the conclusion that a doctor is more

22 educated than a lawyer or a judge, or how can you conclude that a

23 physician can know more about law than they do?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Dr. Simic, you are not there to ask counsel

25 questions. You are there to answer questions. So just answer the

Page 12533

1 questions. If you don't know, you say so. If you haven't understood the

2 question, you say so.

3 MR. WEINER:

4 Q. Sir, isn't it true that you as a doctor and educated man signed

5 that document as your statement? Isn't that true?

6 A. What I say is true. And I would ask the interpreters to address

7 me in Serbian.

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Dr. Simic, I'm a little unclear why

9 you're asking the interpreters to address you in Serbian.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they're putting in Croatian

11 words and then I repeat them here.

12 MR. WEINER:

13 Q. Yes. You would like separate the Croats from the Serbs; correct?

14 A. No. It's just that these two languages are separate.

15 Q. Sir, let's move on. Speaking of the paramilitaries, you indicated

16 that you were aware, at least by the 15th, that they had arrived and were

17 in the municipality of Bosanski Samac; correct?

18 A. Could you please repeat the question.

19 Q. You were aware that the -- I won't use "paramilitaries." -- the

20 volunteers and strike battalion had arrived and were in the municipality

21 of Bosanski Samac on or about April 15th -- or they arrived on the 10th

22 and you became aware on the 15th. Isn't that correct?

23 A. The answer to that question is no.

24 Q. Sir, you just testified maybe 30 minutes ago that you became aware

25 that the paramilitaries had arrived on or about the 15th of April. That's

Page 12534

1 when you just said you became aware that they arrived. Are you now giving

2 us a new answer?

3 A. Thirty minutes ago I asked you to be more precise. I have never

4 used the term "paramilitary formation."

5 Second, you said when -- you asked when Crni came with his group.

6 You never linked up the strike battalion with Crni. And now you're asking

7 me about Crni and the strike battalion. There was no strike battalion

8 during those days.

9 Q. Well, the strike -- the assault group is the term you used. Crni

10 and his group of volunteers, you realised or learned that they had arrived

11 on or about the 15th of April, basically a day before the war; isn't that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And on or about the 15th or 16th of April, did you have some

15 conversation with Crni or with Colonel Nikolic concerning war activities?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Sir, were you involved through Colonel Nikolic in the takeover of

18 Bosanski Samac, the military takeover of Bosanski Samac?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Sir, did you contact Colonel Nikolic on or about the 16th of

21 April, 1992 and tell him that the Crisis Staff has decided to take over

22 the town of Samac? Did you make that telephone call?

23 A. There was no Crisis Staff at the time, and I didn't say that to

24 you.

25 Q. Sir, I'd like to go to Exhibit 141, the statement of Simo Zaric

Page 12535

1 which was made to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 2nd of April, 1998.

2 Question, on page 7: "Did you ever find out whether Blagoje Simic

3 played any role in giving the orders for the attack to take place?"

4 Answer by Simo Zaric: "I already told you that Nikolic told us

5 that it was President Blagoje Simic, president of the Crisis Staff, had

6 called him and told him that the Crisis Staff had decided that they would

7 take over the town. So yes, I do believe that he played a key role in the

8 takeover."

9 Sir, do you recall making that telephone call to Colonel Nikolic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Were you aware that Simo Zaric made that statement?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know of any reason why Simo Zaric would give that statement

14 if it wasn't true?

15 A. I don't know how to answer that question.

16 Q. Let's go on. Simo Zaric further states, the question: "When was

17 it that Nikolic received this call from Simic informing him that they made

18 the decision to take over?"

19 Answer: "And Nikolic told us that he had received the call from

20 Blagoje Simic on the 16th after midnight. So it was actually the 17th,

21 very, very early in the morning -- in the night telling him that the

22 Crisis Staff had decided to take over the town of Samac and that it would

23 become the Serbian Municipality of Samac, that there were Serbian police

24 and units were taking over all the vital buildings and objects of the

25 town."

Page 12536

1 Sir, were you aware that Simo Zaric has made that statement?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And again, do you know of any reason why Simo Zaric would make

4 that statement to the Office of the Prosecutor if it was not true?

5 A. I don't know how to answer that question.

6 Q. Well, do you know of any bias or prejudice that would make Simo

7 Zaric say that?

8 A. I don't know how to answer that question.

9 Q. Let's move to Exhibit P25, please.

10 Sir, in June of 1992, by that time you were aware of the massacre

11 of non-Serb civilians at Crkvina by Lugar and others; correct?

12 A. You are putting a question to me in such a way that it's very

13 difficult for me to answer it.

14 Q. All right.

15 A. I had information that something like that had occurred, and as to

16 whether it indeed had occurred will be established by the Court.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, if he's making any reference to P25,

18 it would be fair for the witness -- for the defendant to have this exhibit

19 in front of him so that he can make certain comments. Simply as that.

20 Because he made a reference to P25.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

22 MR. PANTELIC: And then if you're speaking about a certain

23 exhibit, the defendant is entitled to have it in front of him.

24 MR. WEINER: I was going to get to it a little bit later, but

25 fine.

Page 12537

1 MR. PANTELIC: No problem if it is later --

2 MR. WEINER: Show it to him --

3 MR. PANTELIC: I just want to keep this relation. When you are

4 speaking about certain topics which are included in certain exhibit, it's

5 perfectly clear that the defendant should have that in front of him.

6 Thank you.

7 MR. WEINER:

8 Q. Sir, and you've also testified last week about the problems that

9 were caused by Crni and his volunteers from Serbia, the daily problems

10 caused by them. You testified about that too, didn't you?

11 A. I tried to be as precise as possible in my answers, but I also

12 want precise questions. Where did I mention Crni? I spoke about Lugar.

13 Q. You talked about the volunteers and the trouble caused by the

14 volunteers. Didn't you talk about that or testify about that last week?

15 A. And then I singled out Lugar.

16 Q. Correct. But you had talked about Lugar and the others; correct?

17 A. And then I singled out Lugar.

18 Q. Now, you knew Aleksandar Vukovic, nicknamed Vuk, was a member of

19 the volunteers and was killed in action; correct?

20 A. I didn't know him personally, but I know that he had been killed

21 in Samac as a volunteer.

22 Q. And he -- and his body was sent back by helicopter to Serbia,

23 where he had come from.

24 A. He came from Montenegro, and his body was sent back to Montenegro.

25 He's a Montenegrin by ethnicity.

Page 12538

1 Q. And it was sent back through Serbia when they removed certain

2 prisoners and let them off in Serbia. But let's move on.

3 This volunteer, Vuk, were you aware that this man in April -- in

4 April or May of 1992 had attacked Simo Zaric while in the offices of the

5 Crisis Staff? Were you aware of that?

6 A. No.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, I have to intervene at this point.

8 Obviously the information that the Prosecutor is referring to is the

9 cross-examination of Stevan Todorovic that I performed. And I never said

10 that this incident happened in the Crisis Staff premises. It happened

11 actually in the SUP building.

12 MR. WEINER: I'm referring to, Your Honour, the testimony of Simo

13 Zaric before the OTP, before the Office of the Prosecutor when he gave his

14 statement.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

16 MR. WEINER: It's Exhibit --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: When he was interviewed by the Prosecutor.

18 MR. WEINER: It's Exhibit 141 at page 14.

19 Q. My question is, regardless of the place, it wasn't Bosanski Samac.

20 And were you aware that this Vuk shoved his gun or pistol into Simo

21 Zaric's mouth? Were you aware of that?

22 A. No.

23 Q. But you were aware, sir, or you had at least heard that the

24 volunteers, Lugar and other volunteers, had murdered a group of non-Serbs,

25 16 non-Serbs in Crkvina. You had received that information; correct?

Page 12539

1 A. I received information that this had happened. And as to whether

2 it indeed had happened, that is something for the Court to establish.

3 Q. So after this incident happens where Lugar and other volunteers --

4 if you want to use your language -- allegedly commits a mass murder, what

5 do you do? You establish the Aleksandar Vukovic Vuk Foundation, named

6 after one of the volunteers. Isn't that true? Isn't that what you did in

7 P25?

8 A. You're asking too many questions. Please put a single question to

9 me.

10 Q. Sir, you established the Aleksandar Vukovic Vuk Foundation on June

11 27th, 1992. That's what the Crisis Staff did in this document and you

12 signed it. A foundation named after one of the volunteers, the same group

13 of volunteers that committed a mass murder in your community. Did you

14 establish that foundation, sir?

15 A. When you use the term "you," what do you have in mind? I

16 personally did not establish anything.

17 Q. Did the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac

18 establish the Vuk -- Aleksandar Vukovic Vuk Foundation at its session of

19 27 June 1992 and that in this document, Exhibit P25, you signed that and

20 made it official?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Can we continue on?

23 MR. WEINER: Exhibit P75, please.

24 Q. Now, sir, rather than repeat what we've just discussed, to do it

25 briefly, again you sent this letter on -- the date is illegible. So it's

Page 12540

1 either the 12th or the 22nd of May, because there's some sort of slash in

2 front of the "2." But I'll even say the 2nd of May. I'll give you the

3 benefit of the doubt. You sent this letter to the Serbian people of

4 Vranja; isn't that correct, sir?

5 A. Yes. This letter was sent by the Serb Municipality of Bosanski

6 Samac to the Municipality of Vranja.

7 Q. And you stated in that letter that he was now -- that he is now a

8 hero of the Serbian people from this area. Do you consider Crni and his

9 volunteers heroes -- either Crni or his volunteers or both to be heroes?

10 A. They were not a compact group. Crni was the only one who was from

11 Vranja, and all the others were from Kragujevac. There was an antagonism

12 between them the entire time. Crni was a citizen or resident of Samac.

13 He married a woman from Samac and established his family there. The

14 purpose of this letter was not any of these things mentioned, but there

15 was another reason, because they wanted to establish economic cooperation

16 between the factories producing furniture and textile. There were leading

17 factories in Serbia, and we tried to establish economic cooperation.

18 Nobody replied to this letter of ours from Serbia. We tried basically to

19 start up the manufacturing process.

20 Q. Sir, did you state that Crni was a hero of the people -- of the

21 Serbian people from this area? Is that what you stated in your letter?

22 A. This is not my letter. This is a letter sent by the Municipal

23 Assembly of Bosanski Samac.

24 Q. Didn't you sign that letter, sir?

25 A. I signed all of the documents of the Municipal Assembly of

Page 12541

1 Bosanski Samac that were brought to me, and this fell within the scope of

2 my duties.

3 Q. Did you -- did the letter you sign state that Crni was a hero of

4 the Serbian people from this area? Does your letter state that? The

5 first paragraph, sir.

6 Why don't I do this: Why don't I read it and you just tell me if

7 I'm reading it correctly. The last -- it says -- in the last two

8 sentences it appears to be of the first paragraph. And it's an

9 abbreviated next-to-last sentence.

10 "He is now a hero of the Serbian people from this area. The

11 Serbian people from this area wish to thank the people of Vranja

12 officially for raising such a son."

13 Did I just read your letter correctly?

14 A. Yes. But it says here "a favourite," not a "hero."

15 Q. So he is a favourite of the Serbian people from the area of

16 Bosanski Samac. And this is Crni, the volunteer from Serbia we're talking

17 about.

18 Could you read that section that I just read for the record so we

19 can -- there might be a problem in translation. I don't want there to be

20 any problem here.

21 A. "And now a favourite of Serb people from our area, Dragan

22 Djordjevic, Vranjanac, our Serb people wish to express officially their

23 gratitude to the people of Vranja for raising such a son."

24 Q. Thank you. No further questions on that document, sir.

25 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, would you like me to take the break now

Page 12542

1 or continue?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: We have three minutes.

3 MR. WEINER: Okay. Excuse me.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MR. WEINER:

6 Q. Sir, a while ago, when we started this, at about 9.45, we talked

7 about the Serb Autonomous District of the Northern Bosnia Assembly. And

8 you indicated that the assembly never really got going and that you were

9 nominated but you were never given this -- given any position. We have

10 obtained the minutes from a meeting which you attended of the Serbian

11 Autonomous District and would like to show it to you.

12 MR. WEINER: We have copies. We have it in English and B/C/S for

13 the witness, or whoever needs it.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Well, I'm not so sure, Your Honour, but I think

15 that the Prosecution already tendered this document as an exhibit. I

16 believe during the examination-in-chief of Mr. Sulejman Tihic it was done

17 or something. So -- because it's very -- very hard to read this -- the

18 small letters on this copy. If you have it in your...

19 MR. WEINER: One moment.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall take a break and the parties can deal with

21 that. The break will be about 20 minutes. We'll resume sitting at 12.50

22 hours.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination is continuing.

Page 12543

1 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour. Instead of the document that

2 we gave, can we go to Exhibit P10. Apparently the document that we just

3 handed in has a different ERN number, but that and P10 are the exact same

4 documents.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: So this one which you handed in, we ignore it

6 completely.

7 MR. WEINER: Just ignore it, because other than the ERN number,

8 it's the exact same as P10. Sorry about that.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Then we'll deal with P10.

10 MR. WEINER:

11 Q. Sir, could you look at Exhibit P10, please. Oh, I'm sorry.

12 A. I've seen the document.

13 Q. Okay, sir. I would like to read under the heading, "Excerpts from

14 the minutes." And just tell me if this is correct.

15 It says, "Excerpts of the minutes of the founding session of the

16 Serb Autonomous District, Northern Bosnia Assembly, held on 4/11/1991 at

17 1600 hours in Doboj." Is that correct, what I just read, sir?

18 A. That's what it says here in this document.

19 Q. Thank you. Let us continue to the - one two, three - the fourth

20 paragraph. "According to the conclusions of the board preparing the

21 founding of the assembly, the following persons were nominated and elected

22 to the chair: Dr. Blagoje Simic, Milovan Bjelosevic, Miljana Sajinovic,

23 Miladin Nedic, and Nikola Perisic." Is that correct, what I just read?

24 A. Bjelosevic Milovan. Bjelosevic Milovan.

25 Q. Thank you. And is that correct what I just read? Those persons

Page 12544

1 were nominated and elected.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So you were nominated and elected to the chair.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could we go to the second page. AD-2B: "Dr. Blagoje Simic

6 presented to the representatives the proposition for establishing of the

7 Assembly of the Serb Autonomous District Northern Bosnia. After his

8 presentation, the representatives voted by unanimous vote in favour of the

9 decision to establish the Assembly of the Serb Autonomous District

10 Northern Bosnia and confirm Doboj at its seat." Is that correct, what I

11 just read?

12 A. That's what it says here.

13 Q. And could you go to the last page, because there was -- you

14 weren't certain about an election or any position that is you held, so I'd

15 like to invite your attention to the last page, the second paragraph, last

16 sentence: "Milovan Bjelosevic, professor, was elected vice-president with

17 17 votes in favour, and Dr. Blagoje Simic was elected vice-president with

18 three votes in favour." Did I just read that correctly?

19 A. That's what it says here.

20 Q. And you were elected the vice-president, one of the two of them.

21 A. Nobody asked me whether I would accept to be vice-president on the

22 basis of three votes. First of all, I did not even obtain a democratic

23 majority there. Secondly, nobody ever sent a decision in writing to me.

24 Thirdly, my municipality did not delegate me there, because the

25 municipality of Samac was not in the SAO of Northern Bosnia, nor did it

Page 12545

1 ever declare its views on that. I never again attended these meetings,

2 and as far as I know this SAO was not operating either.

3 Q. Sir, did you attend that founding meeting?

4 A. This, yes.

5 Q. And according to the minutes, you were elected vice-president.

6 A. The situation needs to be explained. I was then doing my

7 residency in Doboj.

8 Q. No, no, no. I'm not asking you about all the circumstances in

9 your life. The question is: You were elected vice-president?

10 A. On the basis of democratic procedure, this is impossible. It is

11 impossible. 51 persons were voting, and then one obtains three votes and

12 then gets elected? That's impossible.

13 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you for legal opinion. Does it say here that

14 you were elected vice-president? In fact, prior to that -- let's even

15 step back. If we look at AD-2E: "As proposed by Savo Knezevic, chairman

16 of the elections and appointments committee, the following persons were

17 nominated for the positions of president and two vice-presidents of the

18 assembly: Milovan Bjelosevic from Derventa, Nikola Perisic from Teslic,

19 and Dr. Blagoje Simic from Bosanski Samac." Did I just read that

20 correctly, sir?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then below that it says: "The results of the secret vote for

23 president and two vice-presidents of the assembly were established as

24 follows: Nikola Perisic, lawyer, was elected to the position of president

25 of the assembly with 32 votes in favour; Milovan Bjelosevic, professor,

Page 12546

1 was elected vice-president with 17 votes in favour; and Dr. Blagoje Simic

2 elected vice-president with three votes in favour." Isn't that what the

3 document says, you were elected vice-president?

4 A. That's what is written on this piece of paper.

5 Q. And you were in fact elected vice-president, or do you deny that?

6 You can deny it if you'd like. Were you elected or weren't you?

7 A. In fact, no. If I understood what "in fact" means.

8 Q. Well, I -- well, could you please show me where it says that you

9 were not elected vice-president or that you refused the position. Could

10 you please show me that, where it says that on this document.

11 A. First of all, I don't know whether this is an authentic document.

12 I haven't confirmed it as such.

13 Secondly, this is minutes -- or rather, an excerpt from minutes.

14 So it's not even the complete minutes.

15 Thirdly, no one ever gave me a decision in writing, because even

16 if somebody is elected to a particular position at a meeting, then the

17 legal staff have to write a decision thereon. Nobody ever issued that

18 kind of decision in writing to me.

19 Fourthly, my municipality did not declare itself in favour of

20 acceding to this SAO. I could not attend any following meetings because I

21 did not have support for that.

22 And fifth, as far as I know, this SAO never again met; not even

23 during the war.

24 Q. So what you're saying is that this document is wrong and you were

25 not elected vice-president, as it indicates in Exhibit 10.

Page 12547

1 A. I say that I was not elected vice-president because I did not get

2 a decision in writing. And on the basis of three votes, that is

3 impossible anyway.

4 Q. Let us continue.

5 MR. WEINER: Exhibit 71, please.

6 Q. [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Weiner, please.

8 MR. WEINER: Very sorry.

9 Q. Sir, did you have a chance to look at the document?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This document was discussed, document P71 -- or Exhibit P71 on

12 Thursday, November 14th, last week when we were here. And you indicated

13 that the signature on that was not yours; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recall the Crisis Staff enacting this order or decision?

16 A. No, the Crisis Staff did not pass this kind of decision.

17 Q. Were you aware of an order by the Crisis Staff to isolate Croatian

18 civilians in May of 1992?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were you aware of an order by another municipal body to isolate

21 Croatian civilians in May of 1992?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were you aware that Croatian civilians were being isolated,

24 arrested, detained, set aside in May of 1992?

25 A. I had information from Stevan Todorovic that one day a certain

Page 12548

1 number of civilians were brought to the cultural centre in Crkvina and

2 that then on the same day they were returned to their homes with an

3 apology.

4 Q. Were you aware of a longer term isolation of Croatian civilians in

5 May and June of 1992?

6 A. That was the way this information was put.

7 Q. Other than that incident with Todorovic, other than that Crkvina

8 incident, were you aware of large numbers of civilians who were arrested,

9 detained, brought to various locations, including Zasavica, the high

10 school gymnasium, were you aware of that happening in May of 1992?

11 A. As for Zasavica, I don't know that anybody was ever arrested or

12 that there was any kind of prison there. Stevan Todorovic reported to the

13 Crisis Staff that there were some prisoners, and he claimed that there was

14 enough evidence for criminal charges to be brought against them.

15 Q. What I'm talking about is an isolation of Croatian citizens, and

16 my question was: Other than that incident with Todorovic, other than the

17 Crkvina, other than the Crkvina incident, were you aware of a large number

18 of civilians who were arrested, detained, brought to various locations,

19 including Zasavica and the high school gymnasium, were you aware of that

20 happening in May of 1992, a large-scale number of people, Croatians, being

21 isolated, being detained -- arrested and detained in facilities or

22 prisons, large numbers?

23 A. What does this word "large numbers" mean?

24 Q. Let's even reduce the large number. Were you aware of a plan to

25 isolate Croatian citizens, Croatian civilians in May of 1992, or that it

Page 12549

1 was happening? Croatian civilians.

2 A. I knew what Stevan Todorovic told me.

3 Q. And did he --

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Weiner. Just for the sake of

5 clarity, twice you've asked the question -- you talk about isolation

6 centres, detention centres, and so on. And then you say, "Such as

7 Zasavica, the high school gymnasium." Now, I'm sure we all take it that

8 you mean the high school gymnasium in Bosanski Samac, but it reads as

9 though it's the high school gymnasium attached to the village of Zasavica

10 at the moment.

11 MR. WEINER: Sorry, Your Honour.

12 Q. Sir, were you aware that a plan was made and implemented to

13 isolate -- use the word "isolate" or "isolation" -- to isolate Croatian

14 citizens, where they were arrested and detained at the high school

15 gymnasium in Bosanski Samac and Zasavica?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you aware of any plan to isolate Croatian citizens in May or

18 June, arresting or detaining them because they were Croatian, and

19 isolating them -- I'm using the words "isolate" or "isolation" of Croatian

20 citizens.

21 A. That's a very complex question. Stevan Todorovic reported that he

22 did have prisoners for whom he was collecting documents and he was

23 convinced that a criminal complaint could be filed against them and that

24 these persons could be brought to trial.

25 Q. What I'm talking about are not the prisoners at the SUP. I'm

Page 12550

1 talking about prisoners who were isolated, civilians, that they isolated

2 them mainly in response to the Serbs being held in Odzak. In response to

3 the Serbs being held in Odzak, authorities went out, rounded up or

4 arrested numbers of Croatian civilians and isolated them. Were you aware

5 of that happening in May and June of 1992?

6 A. The municipality of Samac during the first days of the war

7 included almost only Serb territory. In its territory there was not a

8 single Croat village almost. The Croats remained in their part of the

9 territory, and they had their own municipality, Bosanski Samac Domaljevac.

10 In the areas of Domaljevac, Bazik Grebnica, Prud, and at that time they

11 also had Zasavica and Tisina under their control. Then the army managed

12 to rectify part of the front line. I'm primarily referring Zasavica and

13 Tisina, and the population withdrew before the army. So in the territory

14 of the municipality and from the Croat villages, information was coming in

15 that there was no one, that there was no one there, that the Croat

16 population stayed within their own municipality or they withdrew before

17 the army.

18 Q. [Microphone not activated]

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Weiner, please.

20 MR. WEINER: Sorry.

21 Q. I'll take your answer as no, that you were not aware.

22 Sir, Bosanski Samac is not a large municipality. It's not a

23 metropolis. It's not New York city. It's not Tokyo. We're not talking

24 about millions of people or a very, very large area. Do you agree with me

25 on that?

Page 12551

1 A. All of that is relative. But I can agree that it's a small

2 municipality and a small town.

3 Q. So if a large number of non-Serbs, a large number of the non-Serb

4 population were suddenly rounded up, detained and isolated, you in this

5 relatively small municipality, as you refer to it, would know about it,

6 wouldn't you?

7 A. I think that you are nevertheless trying to prove your own thesis.

8 I said that a small number of civilians were in Crkvina and released on

9 the same day. I said that Zasavica was never a prison.

10 Q. That's not my question and I'm not referring to Crkvina. My

11 question to you was: So if a large number of non-Serbs, a large number of

12 the non-Serb population were suddenly rounded up, detained and isolated,

13 you in this relatively small municipality, as you refer to it, would know

14 about it, wouldn't you? Would you please answer the question.

15 A. This is too general a question. I don't know how to answer it.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: There is nothing -- there's nothing wrong with the

17 question. It's perfectly clear. You were a resident of that place, so

18 you should answer the question.

19 MR. WEINER:

20 Q. I'll ask it again. So --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: He didn't say he didn't understand the question, so

22 he should answer the question.

23 MR. WEINER:

24 Q. Could you answer the question, please.

25 A. Could you repeat the question.

Page 12552

1 Q. The question is: So if a large number of non-Serbs, a large

2 number of the non-Serb population were suddenly rounded up, detained and

3 isolated, you in this relatively small municipality, as you refer to it,

4 would know about it, wouldn't you?

5 A. Would you define "a large number" for me. What is a large number?

6 Q. Over 100.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay.

9 MR. WEINER: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P82,

10 please.

11 Your Honour, could we go into closed session for a few moments, as

12 we discuss this one document. It concerns a protected witness.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we go into private session.

14 MR. WEINER: Private session.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

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Page 12556

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 MR. WEINER:

4 Q. Page 40 of Exhibit 141, Nancy Paterson questioning Simo Zaric on

5 April 2nd, 1998.

6 "My question wasn't whether you went to Zasavica and you were

7 there for the exchange. My question is: What do you know about all these

8 people from Samac that were collected, taken from their homes, and

9 detained in the village of Zasavica?"

10 Zaric: "It is a Croatian village and a number, as far as I know,

11 of inhabitants remained after the outbreak of conflict. Before the

12 conflict, some left, presumably to go to Croatia or to other villages in

13 the area. The Samac Crisis Staff had decided at some point - I know

14 that -" sorry. "The Samac Crisis Staff had decided at some point, I know

15 that, I don't know when the decision was made, on the isolation of Croats

16 and they were then -- a number of them were taken from Samac and put in

17 these -- placed in these abandoned houses in Zasavica or made to -- for

18 them accommodation to be provided by those people already living there. I

19 don't think it was a camp in a typical sense because they were able to

20 walk about, but certainly I know about the decision and this one was very

21 unfortunate, a very bad decision by the Crisis Staff."

22 Continuing, so this was the Crisis Staff -- this is question. "So

23 this was the Crisis Staff in Samac at some point decided that the Croats

24 living in Samac municipality should be removed from their homes and sent

25 to Zasavica."

Page 12557

1 It continues on to page 41, Your Honour, same exhibit.

2 Zaric: "This was not exclusively for Croats because there were

3 also some Muslim families there, I believe. The decision was made

4 following the imprisonment of those people in the Odzak area. I think it

5 wasn't just for Croats."

6 Nancy Paterson: "But the people were forced to leave their homes

7 and to go to Zasavica; is that right?"

8 Zaric: "Yes."

9 Nancy Paterson: "And what happened that these homes and the

10 property they left behind?"

11 Zaric: "Yes. This is what happened. And at first what happened

12 is that the authorities of Samac had put in these houses and flats some of

13 their new key people that they had from elsewhere. Later on Serbs from

14 Krajina and refugees from elsewhere were placed into these houses. As far

15 as their property is concerned, it had the same fate as the property of

16 many others I've mentioned before, is that the paramilitaries and all

17 those criminals thoroughly looted many houses and flats in Samac and many,

18 many goods were taken away."

19 That's how Simo Zaric describes the isolation decision by the

20 Samac municipality, the Crisis Staff of the Samac municipality. Do you

21 have any reason or do you know of any reason why Simo Zaric would not have

22 told the truth at this time or would have told something other than the

23 truth?

24 A. I don't know how to answer that question.

25 Q. Do you know of any bias or prejudice that Simo Zaric would have

Page 12558

1 which would make him answer in this manner?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Let's continue. Page 43, still on Exhibit 141.

4 Nancy Paterson: "Okay. How was it then that you know that the

5 Crisis Staff is the one who made this decision to isolate these people in

6 Zasavica?"

7 Simo Zaric answers: "It was no secret. It was a well-known fact.

8 Everything that was decided was well known. For instance, that the people

9 were going to be taken to Crkvina and that they were detained in two

10 schools, it was all well known. There was no secret about it."

11 A. That shows that. That confirms that, because there were never

12 civilians at school in Crkvina.

13 Q. Mr. Zaric indicated that it was a well-known fact that the Crisis

14 Staff decided to isolate people and that everything else that was done,

15 placing people in Crkvina, detaining them in schools, that was also well

16 known. Do you know of any reason why Simo Zaric would have made that

17 statement if it wasn't true, sir?

18 A. I don't know how to answer that question.

19 Q. Do you know of any bias, prejudice on Mr. Zaric's part which would

20 make him state -- make a statement that was not true?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Thank you. Let's continue on, since we're talking about detention

23 and arrests and we're talking about Simo Zaric. Did you have a

24 conversation with Simo Zaric on approximately April 26th to 28th, 1992

25 concerning the movement of prisoners to Brcko? It could have been a day

Page 12559

1 or two later. About April 26th to 28th, 1992 concerning the movement of

2 prisoners to Brcko.

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you and Stevan Todorovic confront Simo Zaric over his

5 involvement in having prisoners transferred from the TO to Brcko?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Are you aware again that Simo Zaric gave a statement on April 2nd,

8 1998 concerning this conversation between you and Todorovic and him in

9 relation to the transfer of prisoners from the TO to Brcko? Are you aware

10 that a statement was made by Simo Zaric?

11 A. No. I didn't read his statement in detail because I have an

12 opinion of my own.

13 Q. Well, I'm not interested in your opinion. I'm asking whether or

14 not you had this conversation on or about April 26th to 28th, 1992 with

15 Simo Zaric. That's all I'm asking, not your opinion on whether or not

16 prisoners should be -- no?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Sir, I'd like to read this to you and see if you recall this

19 situation. Page 23, Exhibit 141, Nancy Paterson: "How was it that

20 Todorovic and Simic, who apparently were in charge of arresting these

21 people, how was it that they allowed you to remove these people?"

22 Answer by Simo Zaric: "They did not know that night that this

23 action would be carried out, but the next day I already had big problems

24 because of this. They told me the army had nothing to do with these

25 people, that they were not at all in our area of authority. They had

Page 12560

1 asked me why I had done it. I said that it was all coordinated with the

2 command -- with the security command of the higher command and this is how

3 I got out of it, by saying that I was just doing what they had

4 instructed."

5 Having heard Simo Zaric's statement -- statement concerning this

6 conversation, does that refresh your recollection as to the occurrence of

7 this conversation with you and Stevan Todorovic and Simo Zaric?

8 A. I did not participate in that conversation.

9 Q. Do you know any reason why Simo Zaric would have described this

10 conversation with you and Stevan Todorovic if it wasn't true?

11 A. I don't know how to answer that question.

12 Q. Are you aware of any bias or prejudice on behalf of Simo Zaric

13 which would make him provide a statement concerning a conversation between

14 himself and you and Stevan Todorovic if it was not true?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Sir, I would like to move on to another disagreement involving you

17 and Stevan Todorovic on one side and Simo Zaric on the other. It occurred

18 approximately April 19th or 20th at the Crisis Staff offices, and it

19 occurred -- and it concerned who was in charge as well as the use of the

20 radio station.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Is that 1992?

22 MR. WEINER: 1992, yes, Your Honour. April 19th/20th, 1992.

23 Q. It concerned who was in charge, who was in power, as well as the

24 use of the radio station. Do you recall that conversation?

25 A. That was the time when the Crisis Staff did not have its premises.

Page 12561

1 On the 19th of April, 1992 the Crisis Staff did not have its premises.

2 Q. Do you recall your testimony that for a few days you were using

3 the Agropromet or agricultural building? Do you recall that testimony,

4 that you used that for a few days?

5 A. To have a meeting, yes, but those were not premises of the Crisis

6 Staff.

7 Q. Well, at your meeting place, do you recall a conversation

8 between -- involving you and Stevan Todorovic on one side -- you and

9 Stevan, you and Todorovic, and Simo Zaric on the other side where there

10 was a disagreement as to who was in charge of Bosanski Samac as well as

11 the use of the radio station? Do you recall that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What's unusual, sir, is last week you indicated that the radio

14 station wasn't functioning; however, what I'm going to discuss is a debate

15 relating to the use of the radio station, the same one that you said

16 wasn't functioning. Do you recall telling Simo Zaric on that occasion

17 that you and Todorovic were in power?

18 A. I don't remember that conversation, and I continue to claim that

19 the radio station did not work at the time for two reasons: First, there

20 was no power; and second, the transmitter had burned down.

21 Q. Do you recall telling Simo Zaric - let's take the first part -

22 that you and Todorovic were in charge, were in power? And that's on page

23 15 of Exhibit 141.

24 A. I never used such words. It is absolutely not my style. I did

25 not say that.

Page 12562

1 Q. Did you make this statement: "While with Todorovic and Simic,

2 they told me that I was no longer any factor of power, that they were in

3 power. I was nothing, and that my job was to look after the borders and I

4 not should be meddling in the affairs of the town." Do you recall that

5 conversation involving you and Stevan Todorovic on one side and Simo Zaric

6 on the other side? Do you recall that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you recall the second part of the conversation, that Simo Zaric

9 should not have put out a radio announcement on the 4th Detachment? And

10 there was further discussion concerning the use of the radio station. Do

11 you recall any of that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Let me read page 15 of Exhibit 141. "They also said to me, why

14 did you put that announcement of the 4th Detachment in the radio? By that

15 time what was going out on the radio was their press staff announcement

16 about the creation of the Serbian Municipality of Samac. Also, what they

17 did later on was to bring -- then I learned they were bringing Sulejman

18 Tihic, the president of the SDA, who had gone on radio to say that the

19 Muslims should accept the creation of the Serbian municipality, and I

20 believe that this supposed speech of Mr. Tihic had been written and

21 directed by Todorovic and Simic."

22 Sir, does that refresh your recollection as to the conversation

23 that occurred at your Crisis Staff meeting office between you and Stevan

24 on one side and Simo Zaric on the other?

25 A. This did not take place at the Crisis Staff.

Page 12563

1 Q. Sir, do you recall the conversation?

2 A. No.

3 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, do you want to break now or should I ask

4 a few more questions?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we can continue on questioning.

6 MR. WEINER: All right.

7 Q. Sir, based on the discussion that I've just read to you, which

8 Simo Zaric says was between him and you and Todorovic, would you like --

9 would you now like to change your testimony that the radio station was in

10 fact functioning and Sulejman Tihic was broadcasting, Simo Zaric was

11 broadcasting about the 4th Detachment, that the municipality was

12 broadcasting about the new Serbian Municipality of Serbian Samac? Would

13 you now like to change your testimony that the radio station was

14 functioning?

15 A. I say that there was no electrical power, that the transmitter had

16 burned down, that the Municipal Assembly had to procure one in the

17 following month, that we bought a wrong one for mid-waves and that nobody

18 had radios that could receive that and that nothing functioned as it

19 should have.

20 Q. Let me ask you my last two question, as I have in the past: Do

21 you know of any reason why Simo Zaric would make that statement to the

22 Office of the Prosecutor if the statement was not true?

23 A. I don't know how to answer that question.

24 Q. Well, are you aware of any bias or prejudice which would force

25 Simo Zaric or would induce Simo Zaric to make that -- to make a false

Page 12564

1 statement?

2 A. I don't know.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. We shall adjourn and continue tomorrow

4 at 9.00 hours.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of

7 November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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